...I think the risk needs to exist, but not to the extreme Fozzie is proposing. This is game-breaking. I'm one of those folks who enjoy ganking someone who isn't paying attention in WH space - guess what? it still happens. ..

CCP needs to decide what W-space is actually about. Is it about exploration, ganking, PvE, PvP, all the above?

DING DING DING
Who knew a half decade of absolutely no design outlook would lead us here!?

Wormholes aren't messed up because you cant catch anyone; they're messed up because for years they've been completely ignored in the long-term design of EVE and left to gather dust in their 'little' corner of EVE.
And you wanna pick it up, blow off the dust and wonder why you're not holding '2nd pass of tier 1 frigate' grade balance in your hand.

Personally I'd say that the only thing messed up in wormholes are just the thing CCP Fozzie is looking at right now. Every other problem is a problem for the whole game. Like POS. Sure, it's a pain, but it's no different in Lo. The scanning thing however mucks **** up real bad in W-space.

Sounds like a good change to me. Right now, many groups are farming wormholes nearly risk free. I'd like to see it based on time and on the number of ships that have passed through the hole. So maybe it takes 5 minutes +/- 2 minutes to show up, or when 2 (or maybe 3) ships jump through, whatever happens first. Perhaps the base time might be scaled on wormhole class, so C5/C6 residents have to wait longer for the K162s to show up, while the lower classes would have a little more warning time.

admit it, all of you wormhole people make fun about local in k-space.

Hey everyone,

My corporation member ShadownandLight created a poll with some questions related to this topic. Please take part in the poll so we can bring it up in an upcoming discussion we have planned with current CSM members and the wormhole CSM 9 candidates.

I am probably going to use the poll results to ask questions and point out community feelings.

The Poll can be found here:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1mYmEjYc3te6TcC768QW836haSXVour1RnKgxFBTe3o4/viewform

Where/when can we see the results

If anyone wants to know the second somebody rolls into you, it's not different from people wanting to stay local in k-space, so they can POS up their carrier the second they get a +1 neutral in local..

Hey everyone,

My corporation member ShadownandLight created a poll with some questions related to this topic. Please take part in the poll so we can bring it up in an upcoming discussion we have planned with current CSM members and the wormhole CSM 9 candidates.

I am probably going to use the poll results to ask questions and point out community feelings.

The Poll can be found here:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1mYmEjYc3te6TcC768QW836haSXVour1RnKgxFBTe3o4/viewform

And I'm going to reiterate that until CCP Fozzie give a more clear direction what "Minutes" means to him, all discussion on this is pointless. A 1 minute delay is a big difference to a 20 minute delay and it seems people for this are looking at the short end of that with people against looking at the long end.

Seriouspoast: Go for the middle ground. Right now the K hole with appear as soon as someone activates the static/whatever wh grid by initiating warp to it. This gives the 'defenders' a good 20 seconds minimum notice before the scanner has a chance to arrive on grid with the wh, let alone jump through and make an impact. On the other hand under the new proposed mechanic a skilled dscanner will have been able to identify the location of a potential site running fleet before the K hole becomes visible (given that most occupied holes will have a handful of anoms max - an expo fleet would be harder to find). A much better change would be that K holes only appear once someone has jumped through from the other side. This gives both 'sides' an equal chance to find targets/gtfo without introducing hilariously broken situations where a gank could be taking place before the sig appears.

We investigated what would be involved with delaying the appearance of signatures on the sensor overlay, but that solution is somewhat unsatisfactory since players could always return to the old trick of spamming probe scans to check for the new sigs. Basically, the Sensor Overlay had only made the existing problem more visible, and it would be better if we could get right to the source.

The potential change would be to delay the appearance of the signature beacon when K162 dungeons spawn. This would prevent the dungeon from appearing on probe scans or the Sensor Overlay for up to a few minutes.

This change would make life in wormholes a bit less safe, and increase the sense of real danger that unknown space should include. The flipside is that actively hunting for pvp in wormholes should present more targets that have a slightly shorter notice to your arrival.

The delay could take a few potential forms, either a set timer of a couple minutes, a timer that has random elements or even one that is variable depending on the amount of mass that passes through the wormhole.

I think a lot of people me included have noticed how active and full Wh space has been the last 6 months to a year and i don't want us to take a step backwards.

If you want danger, how about randomizing w-space. It has been deconstructed so much that there is no sense of mystery. Remove the system names, randomly link different types of wormholes, mix up "statics", dynamic sleeper sites, random system effects, deployables that provide false intel, etc.

Not on some arbitrary time delay, so Two Step can drop 30 T3s on a couple drakes in a C2 and crap up local with "gf".

Or have the opportunity to reship and greet the would-be gankers in a ship and a fleet they can organize a fight against rather than just get ganked.

Let's face it this is nothing more than a "promoting of ganking" proposed mechanic. Plain and simple and if that's how you get your rocks off then go gank in high sec and suffer the sec loss penalty.

Even better, looking at your post again, you remove local from Null, see how that goes and then when they put the fires out in Jita realise that they aren't going to want that anymore than we want this.

TL;DR Wormholes were never broken they got broken by CCP dumbing the game down for empire and forgetting we were still there and the same changes couldn't apply. Now it's a backpedal race to try and fix it but by people who spend all their game time in Null.

Silly sausages all of them.

For those who are already bad it wouldn't make a difference, since they seem to be bad enough that we can catch them on a regular basis.

Ohhh... That hurts my head.

You want to try living in WH's without a consistent income source, third party tools like reliable WH mapping software, and destroying the strategic choices on choosing a WH based on Class, WH effect, and what static it has? While making sure every PvE group has to be able to deal with the maximum potential (dynamic) spawn of any site?

Home a pulsar one day? NOT ANYMORE, it's a Wolf-Rayet now! Good luck using your shield ships!

Nice c1 WH... Shame all the currently spawned anomalies are c4 ones you can't run.

Honestly. There are bad ideas, like the OP. But this one... this is priceless in a truly special sort of way. If I were looking fro a way to make WH space vacant in a hurry, I don't think I could have proposed better.

Stuff and things

The changes don't need to be so dramatic and I think people could easily adjust, rather than knowing that their system always spawns a C2 static and running the forgotten whatever has these frigates as triggers. Maybe 90% it's C2, but sometimes the static is a C1 or C3. Maybe you're in a pulsar and you notice that occasionally there is an increase in intensity of color emanating from the pulsar which you know gives everyone an additional 10% shield hp since you've been living there and have noticed. I would much rather see w-space offer some mysteries than have everything explained and wikified. I would prefer a more intuitive method of gameplay that involves sound and visual cues which require knowledge and skill not some 3rd party spreadsheet that explains every aspect down to the hundredth decimal.

The issue is that no sig should be "unscanable" for any amount of time if you actively have probes out. It's doesn't even make any sense.

"it's there and people can jump through it for x amount of minutes, but you can't scan it".

We are talking about going from one extreme (sigs popping up on overlay without scanning) to the other (you can't scan it for x amount of minutes). Just put it back the way it was and make people scan for grav sites again. Quit "fixing" what's not broken.

I'm going to drop off this thread now, there's no point continuing on until CCP Fozzie starts talking. This thread is too long and we're at the point where people are just rehashing things they've said previously to people who aren't reading all 30 pages. This isn't directed at anyone in particular, just the feeling I'm getting from the last like dozen pages...

Before I do though, here's my collected thoughts.

CCP Fozzie, decloak and engage or jump back to HS

K162's spawn in the destination system when warp is INITIALISED to the WH from the original system
The discovery scanner, when used like Dscan, gives instant intel on new signals.
Under the current system, if you roll your static before you start doing sleeper sites and use the discovery scanner as above, you are immune to EVERYONE trying to attack you as you can react and leave before they even jump the wormhole. Capitals and login traps excluded.
THIS is why people are advocating for a delay.
A SHORT delay, 60 to 120 SECONDS would fix this.
Anymore than 5 MINUTES (Even that's pushing it) would be way too excessive and I am against that.

Or this could be fixed correctly
0% signals should not show up automatically in the discovery scanner for W-Space
Only display once scanned by a probe, like the old working system.
WH's should only spawn when someone lands on grid with it.

Ore Sites should be back to scannable.
WH polarisation should be based of a ship stat rather than a default static value for everyone, I suggest Sensor Strength to give an additional use for bigger ships and ECCM modules.