Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 30 .. 36 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
9531
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hello again industrious capsuleers.
The ORE mining ships received a massive rebalance in the Inferno expansion, which did the classes a lot of good but also had a number of flaws appear over time. Now that we're reaching the second anniversary of that change this is the perfect time to revisit them.
The Inferno changes followed the same goals as the rest of the Tiericide project. Previously Barges were a linear progression of underwhelming Procurers and Retrievers up to the Covetor and Exhumers had very narrow roles as miners of specific types of resources. After Inferno, the Barges and Exhumers each skewed towards a different playstyle, giving players multiple viable choices depending on what attributes they personally valued.
In practice we underestimated the value that players would put in the isk/effort advantage of the Retriever and the Mackinaw, leading to a less diverse mining landscape than we would have liked.
We'll be keeping the basic role breakdown that the 2012 balance created, but adjusting the bonuses quite significantly within that framework:
The Procurer and Skiff remain the tankiest of the barges, but gain an extra low slot (bringing their fitted yield up to the same level as the Retriever and Mackinaw) as well as a new bonus to drone damage and hitpoints. Asking a dedicated PVP ship to defend a mining fleet can often lead to mind numbing boredom for the PVP pilot, so we're providing the option for players to make sacrifices in their mining ships to allow self-defense.
The Retriever and Mackinaw keep the solo and low-attention mining crown thanks to their untouched massive ore bays. They'll be getting a slight decrease to their yield to help moderate their strength, as the previous round of balancing underestimated how much players value ore hold size.
The Covetor and Hulk remain the kings of yield, at the expense of tank and ore hold capacity. Their abilities in large scale group mining will be further improved through the addition of a 5% per level bonus to mining laser and ice harvester optimal range.
We're also going to be switching the way that bonuses on the barges are applied, to put more emphasis on the skill bonuses and less on the role bonuses. The skill bonuses to both ore mining and ice mining will be duration based instead of yield based, providing parity between the effectiveness of the ice mining and ore mining bonuses. Top end m3/hr will be dropping a bit for ore mining, and increasing a bit for ice mining.
The following image summarizes the results of these changes on barge mining yield. The numbers are in "effective strip miners", and they assume max skills and that all but one of the lowslots on each ship is filled with a T2 MLU or IHU (One upgrade for the Covetor and Hulk, two for the rest). Barge Yield
PROCURER
Mining Barge Bonus per level: +5% Shield HP -2% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration
Role Bonuses: +150% Bonus to Strip Miner yield -60% Ice Harvester duration and capacitor use +50% Drone Damage and Hitpoints
Slot layout: 1H, 3M(-1), 3L(+1); Fittings: 45 PWG, 255(+5) CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6000 / 5000 / 5500 Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 800 / 187.5s / 4.27 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 160(+70) / 1 / 10,000,000 / 13.86s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 50(+25) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km(+7.5km) / 660 / 5(+1) Sensor strength: 10 Signature radius: 150(-50) Ore Bay: 12000m3
RETRIEVER
Mining Barge Bonus per level: +5% Ore Hold capacity -2% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration
Role Bonuses: +25% Bonus to Strip Miner yield -20% Ice Harvester duration and capacitor use
Slot layout: 2H, 1M, 3L; Fittings: 35 PWG, 235 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2300 / 1700 / 2000 Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 250 / 187.5s / 1.33 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 80 / 0.659 / 20,000,000 / 18.26s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 25 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km(+7.5km) / 660 / 5 Sensor strength: 9 Signature radius: 250 Ore Bay: 22000m3
COVETOR
Mining Barge Bonus per level: +5% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester optimal range -3% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration
Slot layout: 3H, 1M, 2L; Fittings: 35 PWG, 255 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1700 / 1300 / 1500 Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 312.5 / 187.5s / 1.67 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 100(+30) / 0.57(+0.124) / 30,000,000(-10,000,000) / 23.71s(-1s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 50 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 35km(+12.5km) / 660 / 6 Sensor strength: 8 Signature radius: 200(+50) Ore Bay: 7000m3
SKIFF
Mining Barge Bonus per level: +5% Shield HP -2% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration
Exhumer Bonus per level: +4% Shield resistances -2% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration
Role Bonuses: +150% Bonus to Strip Miner yield -60% Ice Harvester duration and capacitor use +50% Drone Damage and Hitpoints
Slot layout: 1H, 5M, 3L(+1); Fittings: 50 PWG, 300(+30) CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6500 / 5500 / 6000 Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 900 / 187.5s / 4.8 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 200 / 1 / 10,000,000 / 13.86s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 100(+50) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km(+7.5km) / 660 / 6(+2) Sensor strength: 14(+4) Signature radius: 150(-50) Ore Bay: 15000m3
MACKINAW
Mining Barge Bonus per level: +5% Ore Hold capacity -2% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration
Exhumer Bonus per level: +4% Shield resistances -2% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration
Role Bonuses: +25% Bonus to Strip Miner yield -20% Ice Harvester duration and capacitor use
Slot layout: 2H, 4M, 3L; Fittings: 35 PWG, 270 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 3000 / 2300 / 2700 Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 500 / 187.5s / 2.66 Mobility (max velocity / agility / ... Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
|
Ammzi
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
1707
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
As long as they still die to catalysts I am happy. |
Sala Cameron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
173
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
still no April fool, I PROMISE @sala_cameron |
BobFromMarketing
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
62
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
IDGI this isn't funny and it won't get people riled up. Do better next year Fozzy |
Yuki Kasumi
Some names are just stupid
23
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
Looks good. |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
862
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:23:00 -
[6] - Quote
Looks like the Summer Industry expansion is shaping up nicely! Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
398
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:24:00 -
[7] - Quote
optimal range bonus for Hulk. I am sure I suggested this like 18 months ago!!!!
Still.. These are all EXCELLENT changes |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
398
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:25:00 -
[8] - Quote
Crikey! Dat Skiff!! |
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society Affirmative.
327
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:28:00 -
[9] - Quote
If it wasn't bad already, but who is gonna fall for my bait Procurer now... :( |
Yuki Kasumi
Some names are just stupid
23
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:29:00 -
[10] - Quote
Hmm I too like the skiff, however someone appears to have been aware of this in advance. Skiffs were bought out two days ago *grabs tinfoil* |
|
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
553
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:32:00 -
[11] - Quote
The thing about large ore holds that people find appealing is that nobody can steal from your can if you store your ore internally.
LE timers should be reduced to 2 mins or even 60s to prevent the abusing of it. Fleet Bookmarks New Gravimetric Sites Med Clones 2.0 |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
398
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:33:00 -
[12] - Quote
Skiff:
88k EHP and 360 dps.
I see Skiffs, Skiffs everywhere in low sec cause you need a large ship to kill them now! |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2288
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:37:00 -
[13] - Quote
Think you could confuse the crap out of players and extend the drone damage and HP bonus to include drone mining yield also? -á --á |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
584
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:42:00 -
[14] - Quote
links, T3s and capitals go unnerfed while you're messing with barges |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6780
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
what's a skiff cost point-wise in the alliance tournament Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
687
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:44:00 -
[16] - Quote
interesting .... shorter cycles will mean using more cap though surely?? .. cap is already unimpressive in the retriever at least..
also 1 mid slot for tank on the retriever/Mackinaw is silly .. more slots would be nice on these ships .. cargoships have more.
also more dronebay on the retriever/mackinaw would be nice so you can have mining drones and a set of scouts for defense... perhaps you could add mining drone bonuses on some aswell??? Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
1076
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:51:00 -
[17] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:what's a skiff cost point-wise in the alliance tournament
Fill the next tournament area with asteroids to create terrain, then allow barges and exhumers in to modify the terrain.
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
Anhenka
Daktaklakpak. Red Coat Conspiracy
498
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:52:00 -
[18] - Quote
Really can't say I'm a fan at all. I'm operating under the assumption that these are actual changes just posted with excessively poor timing, since they don't seem to be inflammatory enough to be a April Fool's Day troll.
I'm in support of buffing the Hulk, but since you are planning on bundling these changes with the summer indy prepossessing changes that will result in a substantial drop in refined minerals, I really don't think it's a good idea to bundle in changes that result in a significant yield drop in the typical mining vessel of the vast majority of players.
Increased losses to refining coupled with a lower incoming stream of minerals = higher prices on already very high mineral costs.
Then we factor in the reason that so many people use the retriever and mackinaw is because mining is boring as hell.
CCP Fozzie wrote: In practice we underestimated the value that players would put in the isk/effort advantage of the Retriever and the Mackinaw, leading to a less diverse mining landscape than we would have liked.
You really should have expected it. Mining is the least engaging activity in the game by most peoples opinions. To have expected much diversity other than the least effort and time spent to do a fundamentally flawed and boring activity was silly.
Nothing is going to change. The micromanagement needed to fly a hulk is still going to be far too much effort for most people when you are talking peanuts of income, and needing to jetcan out the mined ore literally ever other cycle. All you did was reduce the yield of the people in retrievers, without offering any significant reason to shift to the annoying to fly Hulk. Especially since they are still massive gank magnets in highsec.
Lead with a carrot CCP, not a stick. |
Kelmurdoch
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Fatal Ascension
18
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:53:00 -
[19] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:links, T3s and capitals go unnerfed while you're messing with barges
Quick! Someone plays differently than I do!
Burn them! |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
251
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:57:00 -
[20] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Really can't say I'm a fan at all. I'm operating under the assumption that these are actual changes just posted with excessively poor timing, since they don't seem to be inflammatory enough to be a April Fool's Day troll.
I'm in support of buffing the Hulk, but since you are planning on bundling these changes with the summer indy prepossessing changes that will result in a substantial drop in refined minerals, What? Ore will refine for 100-120% of what it does after the change. Scrap metal reprocessing is not a significant source of minerals and the 45% drop there is ****ing into the wind. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6781
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:57:00 -
[21] - Quote
Anhenka wrote: I'm in support of buffing the Hulk, but since you are planning on bundling these changes with the summer indy prepossessing changes that will result in a substantial drop in refined minerals, I really don't think it's a good idea to bundle in changes that result in a significant yield drop in the typical mining vessel of the vast majority of players. you mean the changes that do no such thing? the ones that keep the yield of highsec mining exactly the same as before? Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Zakarumit CZ
Zakarum Industries Exiliar Syndicate
163
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:58:00 -
[22] - Quote
I really hope this isnt an April fools joke, as those changes seems actually very well thought and could bring in a lot of additional fun and pvp into low sec and wormholes. |
Menor Minayin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:58:00 -
[23] - Quote
So targeting range goes up, what about the survey scanner? |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
2697
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:59:00 -
[24] - Quote
Changing the mining bonus to a duration based one is of some help to the issue I will bring up. But the Skiff, and to some extent the Mack still have one big disadvantage compared to the Hulk: fewer strips. To see the issue consider:
Most miners target a roid and let the miner run its full cycle. If the roid is small some fraction of the cycle will be wasted. With the Hulk if one of your strips is on a small roid you will lose some small fraction of your yield, up to a maximum of one third.
But with the Skiff you could lose up to a complete cycle by targeting a small roid. As the single strip takes so much ore in one cycle there is a greater chance the roid will pop and you lose part of the cycle.
The result is under most practical uses, the Skiff mines much less than your table of numbers would indicate.
How to fix? I see three methods. 1) Redo the models so all mining ships have the same number of strips. 2) Make the strips on the Skiff cycle faster (but still produce the same cubic meters per minute). Of course the player can do this manually, but it just makes mining even more of a click fest. 3) Make it so if you mine a small roid the miner starts its cycle part way through so its timed to end just as the roid runs out of minerals. (This would fail if there are two strips on the same roid. But that is a rare case anyway).
#2 is the only one that can be done by just changing stats. The others require more coding. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
El Drottningo
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:59:00 -
[25] - Quote
So when do we get to see a change to the range of survey scanners? |
Anhenka
Daktaklakpak. Red Coat Conspiracy
499
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 16:02:00 -
[26] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Anhenka wrote: I'm in support of buffing the Hulk, but since you are planning on bundling these changes with the summer indy prepossessing changes that will result in a substantial drop in refined minerals, I really don't think it's a good idea to bundle in changes that result in a significant yield drop in the typical mining vessel of the vast majority of players. you mean the changes that do no such thing? the ones that keep the yield of highsec mining exactly the same as before?
For the most organized players with POS's and such, the reprocessing changes will be of little effect. But remember that not everybody has POS's or perfect skills/standings, and these people will still continue to refine a significant amount of their own ore postpatch under the "My mined minerals are free" mentality.
Not everyone has their act together. Oddly enough, most people that do are not miners. Super low effort profession is frequently coupled with things like not putting much effort into things ingame.
Can you or I refine at equal or higher %'s postpatch? Sure. Will there be enough people refining at a lower yield than current? I think so. |
mkint
1127
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 16:02:00 -
[27] - Quote
Weird... what do you think is going on in the market to call for 2 different mining nerfs? One to barges, one to ores. Mining nerfs don't hurt miners, not really. Mining income will always balance out based on income/hour compared to other sources of income, adjusted for pain tolerances. The only things an across-the-board nerf like this one does is hurt people who consume the minerals (as in lose ships to PVP), since now they'll have to spend that much more time paying the miners.
There are things seriously broken with EVE. Things that limit how long the game itself can continue to survive. Things that makes recent subscription:activity ratios both an embarrassment and alarming. And this kind of pointless tinkering was the best you could come up with? Maxim 34: If you're leaving scorch-marks, you need a bigger gun. |
Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
1077
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 16:05:00 -
[28] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Changing the mining bonus to a duration based one is of some help to the issue I will bring up. But the Skiff, and to some extent the Mack still have one big disadvantage compared to the Hulk: fewer strips. To see the issue consider:
Most miners target a roid and let the miner run its full cycle. If the roid is small some fraction of the cycle will be wasted. With the Hulk if one of your strips is on a small roid you will lose some small fraction of your yield, up to a maximum of one third.
But with the Skiff you could lose up to a complete cycle by targeting a small roid. As the single strip takes so much ore in one cycle there is a greater chance the roid will pop and you lose part of the cycle.
The result is under most practical uses, the Skiff mines much less than your table of numbers would indicate.
Isn't that the whole point of the Hulk, to give the miner much more fine-grained control and reward his paying attention with higher yields?
Not that it addresses the twin problems that the mining minigame itself doesn't encourage close attention, and given that, the presence of gankers pretty much drives people into more AFK-friendly ships. But it doesn't seem to me like the solution is to make the Skiff more like the Hulk.
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
Jelani Akinyemi Affonso
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
70
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 16:09:00 -
[29] - Quote
Put tinfoil hat...
No not me mack...NOOOO!
Oh well.. Mack is still king BABY! Nothing beats ore hold |
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
260
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 16:15:00 -
[30] - Quote
How about reducing all barge tanks abck down to sensible levels again, like you know when eve was good and not this brainless dross? Where going afk, botting or ISboxing was frowned upon and punished hard. You really are just milking this game dry now. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 30 .. 36 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |