what's a skiff cost point-wise in the alliance tournament

In practice we underestimated the value that players would put in the isk/effort advantage of the Retriever and the Mackinaw, leading to a less diverse mining landscape than we would have liked.

links, T3s and capitals go unnerfed while you're messing with barges

Really can't say I'm a fan at all. I'm operating under the assumption that these are actual changes just posted with excessively poor timing, since they don't seem to be inflammatory enough to be a April Fool's Day troll.

I'm in support of buffing the Hulk, but since you are planning on bundling these changes with the summer indy prepossessing changes that will result in a substantial drop in refined minerals,

I'm in support of buffing the Hulk, but since you are planning on bundling these changes with the summer indy prepossessing changes that will result in a substantial drop in refined minerals, I really don't think it's a good idea to bundle in changes that result in a significant yield drop in the typical mining vessel of the vast majority of players.

you mean the changes that do no such thing? the ones that keep the yield of highsec mining exactly the same as before?

Changing the mining bonus to a duration based one is of some help to the issue I will bring up. But the Skiff, and to some extent the Mack still have one big disadvantage compared to the Hulk: fewer strips. To see the issue consider:

Most miners target a roid and let the miner run its full cycle. If the roid is small some fraction of the cycle will be wasted. With the Hulk if one of your strips is on a small roid you will lose some small fraction of your yield, up to a maximum of one third.

But with the Skiff you could lose up to a complete cycle by targeting a small roid. As the single strip takes so much ore in one cycle there is a greater chance the roid will pop and you lose part of the cycle.

The result is under most practical uses, the Skiff mines much less than your table of numbers would indicate.

Isn't that the whole point of the Hulk, to give the miner much more fine-grained control and reward his paying attention with higher yields?

Not that it addresses the twin problems that the mining minigame itself doesn't encourage close attention, and given that, the presence of gankers pretty much drives people into more AFK-friendly ships. But it doesn't seem to me like the solution is to make the Skiff more like the Hulk.

RETRIEVER

Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km(+7.5km) / 660 / 5

Where going afk, botting or ISboxing was frowned upon and punished hard.

So targeting range goes up, what about the survey scanner?

Holy crap does the survey scanner need some love! And not just range, but some kind of indicator that shows which asteroids are currently locked and which one is currently targeted.

Put bars in the survey scanner and make it an always active mod like cloaking. Have it show bars that slowly deplete over rocks being harvested?

Changing the mining bonus to a duration based one is of some help to the issue I will bring up. But the Skiff, and to some extent the Mack still have one big disadvantage compared to the Hulk: fewer strips. To see the issue consider:

Most miners target a roid and let the miner run its full cycle. If the roid is small some fraction of the cycle will be wasted. With the Hulk if one of your strips is on a small roid you will lose some small fraction of your yield, up to a maximum of one third.

But with the Skiff you could lose up to a complete cycle by targeting a small roid. As the single strip takes so much ore in one cycle there is a greater chance the roid will pop and you lose part of the cycle.

The result is under most practical uses, the Skiff mines much less than your table of numbers would indicate.

How to fix? I see three methods.
1) Redo the models so all mining ships have the same number of strips.
2) Make the strips on the Skiff cycle faster (but still produce the same cubic meters per minute). Of course the player can do this manually, but it just makes mining even more of a click fest.
3) Make it so if you mine a small roid the miner starts its cycle part way through so its timed to end just as the roid runs out of minerals. (This would fail if there are two strips on the same roid. But that is a rare case anyway).

#2 is the only one that can be done by just changing stats. The others require more coding.

Why does the Procurer lose a mid while gaining a low (maintains total slot count), while the Skiff gains a low (increases total slot count)?

Edit: This seems like a rather significant nerf to the (usually shield tanked) Procurer. Intended?

MDD

SKIFF

Mining Barge Bonus per level:
+5% Shield HP
-2% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration

Exhumer Bonus per level:
+4% Shield resistances
-2% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration

Role Bonuses:
+150% Bonus to Strip Miner yield
-60% Ice Harvester duration and capacitor use
+50% Drone Damage and Hitpoints

Slot layout: 1H, 5M, 3L(+1);
Fittings: 50 PWG, 300(+30) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6500 / 5500 / 6000
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 900 / 187.5s / 4.8
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 200 / 1 / 10,000,000 / 13.86s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 100(+50)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km(+7.5km) / 660 / 6(+2)
Sensor strength: 14(+4)
Signature radius: 150(-50)
Ore Bay: 15000m3

---

HULK

Mining Barge Bonus per level:
+5% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester optimal range
-3% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration

Exhumer Bonus per level:
+4% Shield resistances
-2% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration

Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 2L;
Fittings: 35 PWG, 300 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2200 / 1800 / 2000
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 625 / 187.5s / 3.33
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 140(+70) / 0.57(+0.124) / 30,000,000(-10,000,000) / 23.71s(-1s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 50
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 35km(+12.5km) / 660 / 7
Sensor strength: 12(+4)
Signature radius: 200(+50)
Ore Bay: 8500m3

Let us know what you think!

CCP fozzie, you picked the worst day of the year to post all these updates. Seriously.

Put bars in the survey scanner and make it an always active mod like cloaking. Have it show bars that slowly deplete over rocks being harvested?

(ice duration)
skiff = .9(barge) * .9(exhumer) * .91^3 (lows) = ~.6104 duration
hulk = .85(barge) * .9(exhumer) * .91^2(lows) = ~.6335 duration

Ore is similar to ice, but the equation is more complicated because they're not hitting the same variable (duration vs yield).

don't you think?

move survey scanner, ship scanner and cargo scanner to highslots, change strip miners to turrets, add utility highs to skiff and procurer?

hulks and covetors can rely on orca scan ("fleet ships"), macks and rets are afk anyway

then rework mining completely and scrap it all because mining is horrible

Ore Yield, ignoring non-ship skills as they'll modify the stats in the same way):

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1os33ZVJKyRfG3GY3taX0Se25dlTbNOoCLHprP7WoRKQ/edit?usp=sharing


Fairly significant differences in yield

Increasing the drone bay of the procurer without increasing the bandwidth is no good. Bump up the bandwidth so that it can field a full flight of medium drones to make it comparable to the mack and hulk.

Increasing the drone bay of the procurer without increasing the bandwidth is no good. Bump up the bandwidth so that it can field a full flight of medium drones to make it comparable to the mack and hulk.

How is this change going to mean more Covetors/Hulks and less Retrievers/Mackinaws?

There is nothing that will change the situation you created, other than annoy the Retrievers/Mackinaw pilots and please the skiff bait pilots.

You want more hulk pilots? Increase the ore bay, that's the only thing that'll get em appearing.

Changing the mining bonus to a duration based one is of some help to the issue I will bring up. But the Skiff, and to some extent the Mack still have one big disadvantage compared to the Hulk: fewer strips. To see the issue consider:

Most miners target a roid and let the miner run its full cycle. If the roid is small some fraction of the cycle will be wasted. With the Hulk if one of your strips is on a small roid you will lose some small fraction of your yield, up to a maximum of one third.

But with the Skiff you could lose up to a complete cycle by targeting a small roid. As the single strip takes so much ore in one cycle there is a greater chance the roid will pop and you lose part of the cycle.

The result is under most practical uses, the Skiff mines much less than your table of numbers would indicate.

How to fix? I see three methods.
1) Redo the models so all mining ships have the same number of strips.
2) Make the strips on the Skiff cycle faster (but still produce the same cubic meters per minute). Of course the player can do this manually, but it just makes mining even more of a click fest.
3) Make it so if you mine a small roid the miner starts its cycle part way through so its timed to end just as the roid runs out of minerals. (This would fail if there are two strips on the same roid. But that is a rare case anyway).

#2 is the only one that can be done by just changing stats. The others require more coding.

"mind numbing boredom for the PVP pilot"

Which is nothing compared to the rorq pilot

ironically he's probably having the most fun; you know, not having to be at his pc and all. start your boosts then go and do your shopping, or go for a nice bike ride, etc.

"mind numbing boredom for the PVP pilot"

Which is nothing compared to the rorq pilot

So targeting range goes up, what about the survey scanner?

The Retriever and Mackinaw keep the solo and low-attention mining crown thanks to their untouched massive ore bays. They'll be getting a slight decrease to their yield to help moderate their strength, as the previous round of balancing underestimated how much players value ore hold size.

Can you or I refine at equal or higher %'s postpatch? Sure. Will there be enough people refining at a lower yield than current? I think so.

My favorite way to have fun playing EVE is not playing EVE.

[quote=Markku Laaksonen][quote=Dave Stark][quote=twit brent]"mind numbing boredom for the PVP pilot"



Maybe we can try for a large boost to fuel bay capacity. That way I can go down to the beach or cinemas. Or maybe i could just sit on the lawn and watch some grass grow.

Skiffs will blot out the suns.

So, most people using the mackinaw will start jet can mining in a skiff now?

Fozzie mentioned previously that mining statistics indicated that the proc/skiff were underused.

The removal of a mid slot is a significant nerf to the procurer tank, I am surprised that thins was not explained in the post...

If the Hulk/Covetor are getting optimal range bonuses, please, please, PLEASE fix the gimped range on the survey scanner!

what's a skiff cost point-wise in the alliance tournament

Then we will mine in the shade!!!

3) The fitting on the Hulk is desperately cramped, CPU in particular. Even with maxed out fitting skills, you still cannot fit reasonably priced tanking modules in all the slots you have for them. The result is that even with maxed out skills on fleet booster *and* Hulk pilot, you can barely reach an EHP high enough to deter a single, bored Catalyst ganker. It doesn't help that the Hulk is the most expensive Exhumer.

The Mack is a bit better in this regard, reaching an EHP which will frequently require at least two gankers.

hmm why not just properly tank fit ok even than a mack gets more. But said fit needs atleast 3 cats to die in .5 probably 4

Really can't say I'm a fan at all. I'm operating under the assumption that these are actual changes just posted with excessively poor timing, since they don't seem to be inflammatory enough to be a April Fool's Day troll.

I'm in support of buffing the Hulk, but since you are planning on bundling these changes with the summer indy prepossessing changes that will result in a substantial drop in refined minerals, I really don't think it's a good idea to bundle in changes that result in a significant yield drop in the typical mining vessel of the vast majority of players.

Increased losses to refining coupled with a lower incoming stream of minerals = higher prices on already very high mineral costs.

Then we factor in the reason that so many people use the retriever and mackinaw is because mining is boring as hell.


You really should have expected it. Mining is the least engaging activity in the game by most peoples opinions. To have expected much diversity other than the least effort and time spent to do a fundamentally flawed and boring activity was silly.

Nothing is going to change. The micromanagement needed to fly a hulk is still going to be far too much effort for most people when you are talking peanuts of income, and needing to jetcan out the mined ore literally ever other cycle. All you did was reduce the yield of the people in retrievers, without offering any significant reason to shift to the annoying to fly Hulk. Especially since they are still massive gank magnets in highsec.

Lead with a carrot CCP, not a stick.

i assume that ccp is not trolling with this one
i personally dont like these changes especially with summer reprocessing. means the mineral prices will be interesting after the stocks empty out.

for the exhumers i always wondered why the tank on the mack is better with the same tank mods as on a hulk. As in my opinion it should be equal.


hmm why not just properly tank fit ok even than a mack gets more. But said fit needs atleast 3 cats to die in .5 probably 4

[Hulk, Hulk: Passive HighSec Miner]

3x Modulated Strip Miner II (Veldspar Mining Crystal II)

Medium Shield Extender II
2x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Upgraded Thermic Dissipation Amplifier I

Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Damage Control II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

, and lets not even get into the flawed mexallon situation that still is unchanged,

In practice we underestimated the value that players would put in the isk/effort advantage of the Retriever and the Mackinaw, leading to a less diverse mining landscape than we would have liked.

"Barge Yield With MLUs" column applied to Hulk made me laugh.

It is too expensive of a ship to not tank. Covetor is more sensible.

This has got to be the absolutely best update in the last ten years!

fit it to your orca; et voila!

How about reducing all barge tanks abck down to sensible levels again, like you know when eve was good and not this brainless dross? Where going afk, botting or ISboxing was frowned upon and punished hard. You really are just milking this game dry now.

Eventually the ship balancing team might actually try mining. Maybe even on Tranquility (preferably in systems policed by CODE). Then they might understand the issues.

am I missing a bonus in my calcs?

Rise said in regard to the Nestor, that CCP is not happy with its price. And now they nerf reprocessing and mining, which will inevitably result in higher prices for all the things. Hypocrisy at its best, eh?

When I first read this I thought it had to be an April Fool's joke like what Blizzard puts out. I guess it isn't. I can't believe you guys are focused on fixing problems that don't really exist. There are plenty of things in this game that need dev attention more than exhumers.

Given the hulk's rather poor PG, how come it's still going to have 4 mids going forward? I'm struggling to think of hulk fits that make full use of 4 mids. 2, sure. 3, at a stretch but 4 seems too much.

I'm no miner, so forgive me if I've missed something obvious.

fit it to your orca; et voila!

... and now you have a gimped Orca instead.

I've long been an advocate of an extra mid-slot on the Orca for a scanner.

and you'll still have a 'gimped' orca. if by 'gimped' you mean "using one of your mid slots for a module it has a bonus for".

Orcas in null sec mining anoms are lossmails waiting to happen. Having scans isn't worth that.

The suggestion of an "Ammo Bay" or specialised hold specifically for mining crystals is actually a very good one.

I am also in the mind set that the only two useful Exhumers are the Skiff and the Mackinaw (and their T1 counterparts). The Hulk doesn't have enough of an advantage in m^3/min over the Mackinaw and it's tank is a little too weak. If the Hulk had the same Ore Hold as the Skiff and the tank of the Mackinaw and a 5-10% buff in m^3/min it would be appealing as a fleet option. Currently. It isn't!

Please do put the mid back on the Procurer.


If you're worried about it having comparatively too many slots, then add a mid to the reti and low to the Cov.

But as the Procurer is designed to operate on it's own in more risky environments, it having an extra slot isn't out of balance. It DOES only have 1 high.

It may mean for smaller fleets and solo multiboxers of fewer accounts, the skiffs will start looking more attractive with a dedicated hauler. Of course, that probably explains the large spike in quantity of skiffs moved in Jita 2 DAYS before this blog was posted. CCP has always had an insider trading problem, it's just disgusting to see it displayed yet again.

Mining has become so irrelevant to most of us that we simply can't be bothered to comment.

Quick! Someone plays differently than I do!

Burn them!

Proc is good enough, it can survive easily with the loss of a mid. All the extra things it is getting plus an extra mid would make it insanely op. If you want the extra mid then stop being cheap and upgrade it a skiff.

As is now there isn't enough benefit in upgrading from a proc to a skiff anyway, so CCP have offset that now by taking away the mid.

And yet the people who actually mine switched to the Mackinaw pretty much overnight. I wonder if anyone on the ship rebalancing team mines for their ISK?

Switching from yield to cycle time is awesome for hi sec miners, since most asteroids contain between 2.1 and 3.1 cycles of a max yield Strip Miner I. Now we'll waste fewer cycles, improving ISK/hr.

The Hulk could use a bit of a hand in terms of PG and CPU in order to be able to fit T2 hardeners. As it stands you have to fit a high-meta T1 tank or do foolish things such as use faction tank modules (which just make your mining ship that much more attractive as a gank target). Upgrading the Hulk to 45PG (+15) and 330CPU (+30) would be a great start. Every combat ship can fit a T2 tank and T1 weapons, and most of them can also fit a MWD without having to use MAPC or Reactor Control modules.

Despite the higher theoretical maximum yield of the Hulk (which advantage is being closed somewhat by this rebalance), I'll still be using Skiffs for fleet mining operations simply because it is so much faster, aligns quicker, has a far better buffer tank, and can do all that while still fit for maximum yield. To put a tank on the Hulk, you sacrifice MLUs for MAPCs. This puts the Hulk's yield below the Skiff. The only advantage the Hulk still has is range, but the 25% extra range translates to about 8km, which the Skiff can cover using its superior range before it's finished mining out the rocks that were previously in range.

Although the Hulk gets a bonus to speed so that it can conceivable "speed tank" those catalysts or MWD stabbers, a Hulk pilot still has to make compromises that Skiff and Mackinaw pilots are not asked to make: that is, the pilot has to choose to either fit for tank or yield. The Skiff and Mackinaw can do both. As such, the Skiff is still the superior fleet mining vessel (and that advantage is being reinforced due to the yield boost it is receiving compared to the Hulk's yield nerf).

And thanks for the extra CPU on the Skiff meaning I can upgrade from F-S9 to T2 shield extenders for even more tank while still having better yield than the Hulk thanks to 3 x MLU II (while the Hulk will be fitting a DC2 and bulkheads in order to not be one-shot by a solo catalyst).

What role was the Hulk supposed to fill? I can imagine it being useful for deep blue null sec where you can see neutrals enter system before the neutrals know they're there.

Yet another stealth null sec buff :P

How about making them battle cruiser in size and allowing them to fit warfare links whilst mining, it would be a good stepping stone to an orca.

because any additional high slot would just be filled with a strip miner.

Hulk changes:

PG: 140
CPU: 400
+1 mid slot
+1 low slot (+2 would be better)

Ore hold to 11,000 (hold 2 cycles of ore)
cargo hold 600 m3 (more crystals)
change jet can ejection timer to 90 seconds, or just bump up ore hold. Current approach means can't drop can when using mobile tractor units.

The PG, CPU, slot changes will allow pilots to have more options to fit the ship according to their skills. A pilot with all 5 fitting skills should be able to see what can be fit with the proposed changes. Todays pilots with lower fitting skills have a very difficult time fitting a hulk. Which is why you see ships with cargo, ship, and survey scanners in the mids - what a waste.

Two additional low slots would make for a more interesting set of fits. mining link upgrades, damage controls, warp core stabilizers, nanofiber internal structures ... the list goes on.

Make strip miners turrets, add hardpoints, specify strip miners to barges and exhumers only, problem solved.

Make strip miners turrets, add hardpoints, specify strip miners to barges and exhumers only, problem solved.

The junior programmer had a problem to solve, which required parsing text.

"I know," exclaimed the junior programmer, "I'll use regular expressions!"

Now the junior programmer had two problems.


Your "solution" creates a new range of combat ships, meaning that not only do the barges and exhumers need to be balanced as mining ships, they will also need to be balanced in terms of what they can be used for in combat. So you've not solved the first problem, and in doing so you have introduced a new, bigger problem.

The hulk should have a new pre-req that it can only be flown when you are really really angry...

Part of me wants to see the hulk as the subcap of choice in bloc warfare.

RETRIEVER
Slot layout: 2H, 1M, 3L;
Fittings: 35 PWG, 235 CPU

MACKINAW
Slot layout: 2H, 4M, 3L;
Fittings: 35 PWG, 270 CPU

COVETOR
Slot layout: 3H, 1M, 2L;
Fittings: 35 PWG, 255 CPU

HULK
Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 2L;
Fittings: 35 PWG, 300 CPU

Nice to see extra targeting range on the Retriever, now if only gained some capacitor as well...

The hulk should have a new pre-req that it can only be flown when you are really really angry...

I would like to see a mining ship that can use the smaller mining lasers, with a large enough cargo last between jetcans. something like a hybrid between a barge and a destroyer.
But besides my wistful dreams,
Procs/Skiffs aren't effective in high sec without being forced to survey scan constantly....meaning I'm going to use covetors or retrievers, as I mine out belts completely leaving nothing left behind, so I value more lasers.
Coveters fill up so quickly, jet-canning isn't even viable, the only way to use them is having them orbiting the orca and dumping into fleet hangar, meaning more FAR more micromanagement and they can't spread out across the belt or use mining drones effiecienty. EVEN WITH ORCA AND CHARON I'm still ending up picking the retriever/mack... AND

Macks just don't have a good risk vs. reward for use in hi-sec. The insurance on them/their tank isn't enough to justify the use, they are just too weak, too vulnerable to suicide ganking. I can fit dirt cheap fully insured retrievers with no tank or any mods besides a cpu rig and 3 T2 MLUs and just not care when they die (making training for exhumers pointless)


My situation isn't exactly typical but I run 11 active accounts I manually control, 8-9 Barges, 1 Orca, 1 Charon. (it keeps me busy, makes mining more active, its not great isk, they make less isk COMBINED than my main can running incursions, but its a hobby nonetheless.

Summary of What I want/What I value- Ships with enough cargo they won't fill up between jetcans
# of lasers since I mine small rocks in Hi-sec.
T2 ships that have a better risk vs. reward (better insurance on hulk/mack or more buffer)
Perhaps a 2k m3 increase to covetor ore hold, or decrease in jetcan timer.
What I dislike - I don't see much point in using the T2 ships.
The fact that retrievers are the "solo" ships, but even with Orca and Freighter support it's what works best (for me)

CCP Fozzie how about adding faction Mining & Ice Mining upgrades to bring mining in line with gun based PVE activities? Plus it would add some value to the ORE LP Store which would go a long way because for the longest time ORE LP have been worth nothing.

The junior programmer had a problem to solve, which required parsing text.

"I know," exclaimed the junior programmer, "I'll use regular expressions!"

Now the junior programmer had two problems.


Your "solution" creates a new range of combat ships, meaning that not only do the barges and exhumers need to be balanced as mining ships, they will also need to be balanced in terms of what they can be used for in combat. So you've not solved the first problem, and in doing so you have introduced a new, bigger problem.

And why on earth would you need to balance them from a combat perspective? Industrials can be fitted with weapons, but it's nothing more than gimmick fits and that's all 'combat' barges and exhumers would be, gimmicks. Oh the humanity! The combat hulk is op with it's 3 small AC, slow as dirt speed and fail tank.

I did not run any numbers but somebody was talking about a 360 dps Skiff, combine that with a battleship class tank and I'd say it's really not that 'gimmick' anymore. Sure, you can get better bang for your buck but that goes for a huuuuuge ammount of vessels.

CCP Fozzie! What are you doing? What for?
I`m nullsec miner. Long range for Hulk without long range survey scanner? Really? Orca/rorqual boost give long range already. We need boost for survey scanner. Why you not work on it?
Nerf Mackinaw? Why? I use Macki(not Hulk) because it has chance to kill small NPC respawn or wait co-corp`s help without jump away. Strong NPC, neuts - my profit already small. Why do you want to make it smaller???

lots of effort for an idea that has no merit.

SKIFF - Exhumer Bonus per level: +4% Shield resistances
MACKINAW - Exhumer Bonus per level: +4% Shield resistances
HULK - Exhumer Bonus per level: +4% Shield resistances

Let us know what you think!

The ships with bonus per level +4% Armor resistances are missing.

And some tank, and more yield, and more bandwith, and and and.


It's a dirt cheap T1 ship for a reason...

The Hulk's role is maximizing yield for an active player that takes steps to protect themselves from other players. In that role it is the single best available choice.

Even in highsec there are a large number of belts where noone (other than blues) will be on a 14 AU D-scan. Those will be the places Hulks can be safely fielded (in fleets alongside an Orca and maybe freighters).

CCP Fozzie, turn your attention to this post

I have long been playing this game , and always engaged in procuring of ore. When digging alone, without bonuses fleet , the range Survey Scanner II lacked. And when you dig in the fleet with bonuses for distance Strip & Ice harvesters, then at a distance of up to 29km rays , range Survey Scanner II (24.5 km) is not enough. And with new features range rays will reach 39km ! !

If you are in fleet with an Orca, you have 70km survey scanners.

...mining yield 3% implant,

4. Covetor/Hulk "buff" - Sigh, well it got the wrong stats buffed so it goes in the trash bin until the next balance pass.

TL;DR

Sell procurers/covetors/hulks

Buy skiffs

Train 21 day free trial hauler alt for skiff w/ throwaway Miasmos

Sell retty/mack

?

Profit

Why don't you clueless morons just buff the Hulks yield instead of nerfing the Mackinaw. The 1% bonus to yield per exhumer skill on the hulk is a joke. Do you really expect people to want to spend 30 days training for 1% more yield?