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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
257
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Posted - 2014.04.01 16:19:00 -
[31] - Quote
Why does the Procuror lose a mid while gaining a low (maintains total slot count), while the Skiff gains a low (increases total slot count)?
Edit: This seems like a rather significant nerf to the (usually shield tanked) Procuror. Intended?
MDD |
TheMercenaryKing
StarFleet Enterprises StarFleet.
147
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Posted - 2014.04.01 16:19:00 -
[32] - Quote
On a Hulk - Buff the Ore bay so you can get a two cycles out of a: Rorqual boosted (with implant), T2 strip miner with T2 crystals, mining yield 3% implant, with max skills.
Otherwise if i turn my mining fleet back online and don't sell my 2nd rorqual, i am changing from macks to skiffs.
Also, assume that all low slots have T2 MLUs. I would only change that on maybe a skiff, but even then. |
Jagoff Haverford
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
108
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Posted - 2014.04.01 16:19:00 -
[33] - Quote
To be clear, when the "re-balancing" took place a few years ago, dozens and dozens of responses on these forums predicted that mining would become nothing but Mackinaws and Retrievers.
There is one other thing that pushed many of us away from the Hulk and Covetor, however, that is not mentioned here -- the ability to carry enough crystals to support mining in low and null sec.
The Hulk is fine as a high sec ship, since any given belt there can only provide (at most) four different types of ore, and the Hulk can carry four full sets of crystals for its three strip miners. Everywhere else, however -- and especially in now-no-longer hidden mining sites -- there are far more types of ore available.
At the time of the "re-balancing", CCP stated that they wanted to Hulk and Covetor to be focused on group mining, and that's why they deliberately removed the ability to carry multiple sets of crystals. I never really understood how this was supposed to work, but somehow crystal carrying capacity was tied to being in a fleet. Unless you were in high sec, I guess, because then you cover the entire belt with the four sets of crystals that you could carry.
I pretty much stopped flying my Hulk at that point. It was just too big a hassle to fly to a grav site, make note of which rocks remained (I found I usually had to write this down), use a survey scanner to make sure that there was still enough Bistot left to make it worth my while, bookmark the locations of the rocks that I wanted to start with, and then warp back to the station and load in the proper crystals. Far easier to jump in the Mackinaw that was pre-loaded with a decent crystal set, warp to the anomaly, and mine whatever I landed closest too while slow-boating to the ore type that I most wanted to obtain.
If you really want to give the Hulk and Covetor a reason to be in fleet, have you considered them making them more responsive to the boosts from mining links than the other barges? That would certainly make it advantageous to use them in larger fleets.
And if you could let them carry enough crystals for at least 7 or 8 different ore types, they might actually be useful again. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
2698
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Posted - 2014.04.01 16:20:00 -
[34] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:Changing the mining bonus to a duration based one is of some help to the issue I will bring up. But the Skiff, and to some extent the Mack still have one big disadvantage compared to the Hulk: fewer strips. To see the issue consider:
Most miners target a roid and let the miner run its full cycle. If the roid is small some fraction of the cycle will be wasted. With the Hulk if one of your strips is on a small roid you will lose some small fraction of your yield, up to a maximum of one third.
But with the Skiff you could lose up to a complete cycle by targeting a small roid. As the single strip takes so much ore in one cycle there is a greater chance the roid will pop and you lose part of the cycle.
The result is under most practical uses, the Skiff mines much less than your table of numbers would indicate. Isn't that the whole point of the Hulk, to give the miner much more fine-grained control and reward his paying attention with higher yields? Not that it addresses the twin problems that the mining minigame itself doesn't encourage close attention, and given that, the presence of gankers pretty much drives people into more AFK-friendly ships. But it doesn't seem to me like the solution is to make the Skiff more like the Hulk. Not really. If the Skiff had been designed without the idea of tiers from day one, it would have had just as many strips as the Hulk. It has one because the ship model in game had one at the time CCP introduced tiericide. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Dave Stark
4840
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Posted - 2014.04.01 16:20:00 -
[35] - Quote
basically, these changes do close to **** all to address any of the issues exhumers have.
surely you could have put your time to better use, and maybe come up with actual fixes. |
Ersahi Kir
Fault Line Industries Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
383
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Posted - 2014.04.01 16:23:00 -
[36] - Quote
The most exciting part of this change is the increase in targeting range.
And Fozzie totally forgot to mention the swapping of the sig radius of the skiffs and hulks.
Now to choose between the skiff and the hulk. Things that make you go hmm. |
Rabbit P
23rd Tier Overseer's Personal Effects Pangu Coalition
6
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Posted - 2014.04.01 16:25:00 -
[37] - Quote
Quote: RETRIEVER
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km(+7.5km) / 660 / 5
now at TQ, the Max Locked targets of Retriever is 4 should it be "5(+1)" ? |
Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
1078
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 16:25:00 -
[38] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Where going afk, botting or ISboxing was frowned upon and punished hard.
When was that?
Also:
+1 to bonuses being more skill-dependent.
Looks good all around. The Skiff looks like the kind of mining barge I could convince myself to fly. As long as the Retriever and Mackinaw retain enormous ore holds and mining remains a low-input activity, they will continue to cover the belts.
If you want more Hulks in the belts, the chatter in Jita Park and elsewhere about coming up with more social mechanics for the game would come in handy: it's a paper-thin, high-maintenance fleet ship now, so as long as you make it difficult or excessively risky for people to band together or cooperate, you'll only see them in dead-end sov nullsec, protected by entire regions' worth of intel channels and enough bubbles to make meringue. Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
Jagoff Haverford
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
108
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Posted - 2014.04.01 16:26:00 -
[39] - Quote
Menor Minayin wrote:So targeting range goes up, what about the survey scanner? Holy crap does the survey scanner need some love! And not just range, but some kind of indicator that shows which asteroids are currently locked and which one is currently targeted.
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Virtutis Sahasranama
Interstellar Hollistic Agency Brothers of Tangra
5
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Posted - 2014.04.01 16:29:00 -
[40] - Quote
Slightly confused. Only about a week ago now, I spread sheeted ice cycle time so that I could work out how much benefit bringing the Rorqual instead of Orca to my current cycle times. When done, I checked the results in game and cycle times matched, with and without boosts so I was fairly confident I had calculated correctly. However your post states ice cycle times will be slightly better at high end.
Now I just plugged the Mack changes in and at my current skill on mining toon which is Exhumers 3, I gain 4 seconds in cycle time after the change. Checking at max level, I gain 0.1 seconds (buggerall but it means requiring Exhumers 5 to have the same time as now). I tried then using boosts, and got the same results. After the change, around 2 seconds slower with boosts at E3, and just under a second slower at E5. How are you calculating that Ice will be slightly quicker for Mack after changes... |
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Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
1085
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 16:30:00 -
[41] - Quote
Very nice changes. Signature Tanking - Best Tanking.
Proposed change for ECM - Not chance based - not max target reduction based |
TheMercenaryKing
StarFleet Enterprises StarFleet.
147
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 16:30:00 -
[42] - Quote
Jagoff Haverford wrote:Menor Minayin wrote:So targeting range goes up, what about the survey scanner? Holy crap does the survey scanner need some love! And not just range, but some kind of indicator that shows which asteroids are currently locked and which one is currently targeted.
Put bars in the survey scanner and make it an always active mod like cloaking. Have it show bars that slowly deplete over rocks being harvested? |
MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
257
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Posted - 2014.04.01 16:34:00 -
[43] - Quote
TheMercenaryKing wrote:Jagoff Haverford wrote:Menor Minayin wrote:So targeting range goes up, what about the survey scanner? Holy crap does the survey scanner need some love! And not just range, but some kind of indicator that shows which asteroids are currently locked and which one is currently targeted. Put bars in the survey scanner and make it an always active mod like cloaking. Have it show bars that slowly deplete over rocks being harvested? The simplest change would be for the survey scanner to auto-repeat like most other modules.
MDD |
Mira Taras
IonTek LLC
1
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Posted - 2014.04.01 16:35:00 -
[44] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Changing the mining bonus to a duration based one is of some help to the issue I will bring up. But the Skiff, and to some extent the Mack still have one big disadvantage compared to the Hulk: fewer strips. To see the issue consider:
Most miners target a roid and let the miner run its full cycle. If the roid is small some fraction of the cycle will be wasted. With the Hulk if one of your strips is on a small roid you will lose some small fraction of your yield, up to a maximum of one third.
But with the Skiff you could lose up to a complete cycle by targeting a small roid. As the single strip takes so much ore in one cycle there is a greater chance the roid will pop and you lose part of the cycle.
The result is under most practical uses, the Skiff mines much less than your table of numbers would indicate.
How to fix? I see three methods. 1) Redo the models so all mining ships have the same number of strips. 2) Make the strips on the Skiff cycle faster (but still produce the same cubic meters per minute). Of course the player can do this manually, but it just makes mining even more of a click fest. 3) Make it so if you mine a small roid the miner starts its cycle part way through so its timed to end just as the roid runs out of minerals. (This would fail if there are two strips on the same roid. But that is a rare case anyway).
#2 is the only one that can be done by just changing stats. The others require more coding.
Yes please! You would circle through your crystals faster, but i would rather have this than to micromanage cycle times in a skiff all day. This adds more of an economical decision to your safety then an attentive one. Just chance ore cycles to behave the same as ice cycles! |
Seiko Hikitari
TIPIAKS
2
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Posted - 2014.04.01 16:38:00 -
[45] - Quote
MailDeadDrop wrote:Why does the Procurer lose a mid while gaining a low (maintains total slot count), while the Skiff gains a low (increases total slot count)?
Edit: This seems like a rather significant nerf to the (usually shield tanked) Procurer. Intended?
MDD
This. Overall more a nerf than a buff to Procurer. It should have been addressed in the OP. Maybe nerf the ore extraction some more to compensate and not make it the new Retriever. And undo the slight CPU buff to make fitting MLU harder. Covetor needs all the help it can get to be attractive. I concur that this doesn't address the fundamental issues of Exhumers but I will take what I can get.
tl;dr CCP don't take my 4th mid pls |
Dave Stark
4840
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Posted - 2014.04.01 16:41:00 -
[46] - Quote
let me elaborate on my previous post.
barge ehp has not changed. nor has ore hold size.
let's see why this solves nothing;
cov/hulk are still too flimsy to actually use, they're going to go pop before you can defend them in any way what so ever. not to mention the sheer level of hassle to use them, before we factor in that they're likely to be an expensive pod wrapper and not much else.
mack/ret are still the ship with the obscenely sized ore bay. people who mine 'afk', will carry on doing so, in the only ships that let them do it.
proc/skiff, well you've just took a mid slot from the proc so it now has less tank, making it less desirable than it previously was. so all in all you've just made one ship worse and done nothing for the rest.
i hope you can see how these changes address absoulutely **** all with the relative power discrepancy between all of the mining ships. oh and you've nerfed ore yield to boot with the "compensation" of ice yield, which is limited by ice site mechanics meaning it's just a flat nerf.
good job guys. completely crap changes. |
Ersahi Kir
Fault Line Industries Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
383
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Posted - 2014.04.01 16:46:00 -
[47] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
SKIFF
Mining Barge Bonus per level: +5% Shield HP -2% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration
Exhumer Bonus per level: +4% Shield resistances -2% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration
Role Bonuses: +150% Bonus to Strip Miner yield -60% Ice Harvester duration and capacitor use +50% Drone Damage and Hitpoints
Slot layout: 1H, 5M, 3L(+1); Fittings: 50 PWG, 300(+30) CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6500 / 5500 / 6000 Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 900 / 187.5s / 4.8 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 200 / 1 / 10,000,000 / 13.86s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 100(+50) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km(+7.5km) / 660 / 6(+2) Sensor strength: 14(+4) Signature radius: 150(-50) Ore Bay: 15000m3
HULK
Mining Barge Bonus per level: +5% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester optimal range -3% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration
Exhumer Bonus per level: +4% Shield resistances -2% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration
Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 2L; Fittings: 35 PWG, 300 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2200 / 1800 / 2000 Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 625 / 187.5s / 3.33 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 140(+70) / 0.57(+0.124) / 30,000,000(-10,000,000) / 23.71s(-1s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 50 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 35km(+12.5km) / 660 / 7 Sensor strength: 12(+4) Signature radius: 200(+50) Ore Bay: 8500m3
Let us know what you think!
After running some quick numbers, and assuming that there is enough CPU to fit full yield mods in the lows, according to these numbers the skiff has a higher max yield for both ice and ore.
(ice duration) skiff = .9(barge) * .9(exhumer) * .91^3 (lows) = ~.6104 duration hulk = .85(barge) * .9(exhumer) * .91^2(lows) = ~.6335 duration
Ore is similar to ice, but the equation is more complicated because they're not hitting the same variable (duration vs yield). |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
383
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 16:48:00 -
[48] - Quote
CCP fozzie, you picked the worst day of the year to post all these updates. Seriously. |
Dave stark
4840
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 16:54:00 -
[49] - Quote
Rowells wrote:CCP fozzie, you picked the worst day of the year to post all these updates. Seriously.
based on how bad they are, i think this is the only day he could post it. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
251
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 16:55:00 -
[50] - Quote
TheMercenaryKing wrote: Put bars in the survey scanner and make it an always active mod like cloaking. Have it show bars that slowly deplete over rocks being harvested?
This is actually a pretty cool idea. I'd say make it still cycle and use cap, but the overlay over asteroid behavior inside of its optimal range would be really cool. Maybe reduce the cap usage to reflect that it's meant to stay on longer? This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Dave Stark
4840
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 16:58:00 -
[51] - Quote
Ersahi Kir wrote:(ice duration) skiff = .9(barge) * .9(exhumer) * .91^3 (lows) = ~.6104 duration hulk = .85(barge) * .9(exhumer) * .91^2(lows) = ~.6335 duration
Ore is similar to ice, but the equation is more complicated because they're not hitting the same variable (duration vs yield).
have you forgotten about the 0.4 from the skiff's role bonus?
edit: damn your ninja edits |
Markku Laaksonen
EVE University Ivy League
423
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 17:02:00 -
[52] - Quote
I don't see how moving one of the Procurer's mids to a low was needed. DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/
EVE Buddy Invite - https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=047203f1-4124-42a1-b36f-39ca8ae5d6e2&action=buddy
|
Ralph Shepard
Boot Camp. CZECH Alliance
1
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Posted - 2014.04.01 17:05:00 -
[53] - Quote
The range may increase above range of survey scanner II (especially when mining in fleet with foreman links), I think mining barges and exhumers should get a role bonus to survey scanner range, let's say 100%. They are specially designed for mining after all, which makes that bonus quite logical, don't you think? |
Dave Stark
4841
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 17:07:00 -
[54] - Quote
Ralph Shepard wrote:don't you think?
nope, put the scanner on your orca and save your barge's mid slots for tank. |
Phoenix Jones
Dropbears Anonymous Brave Collective
456
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Posted - 2014.04.01 17:13:00 -
[55] - Quote
I'm with the rest, the procurer change does not make any sense. You're chopping its tank by about.. 30+ percent.. because.... its currently a pvp powerhouse?!?!?
You basically tear the ******* off of the Procurer, and trying to play it off as a buff??? I don't want to jump to conclusions but I don't see the reason why the potential ship breaking nerf to the loss of a midslot on a procurer.
"The Procurer and Skiff remain the tankiest of the barges, but gain an extra low slot (bringing their fitted yield up to the same level as the Retriever and Mackinaw) as well as a new bonus to drone damage and hitpoints. Asking a dedicated PVP ship to defend a mining fleet can often lead to mind numbing boredom for the PVP pilot, so we're providing the option for players to make sacrifices in their mining ships to allow self-defense."
Skiff, good change.. Procurer.. the point of the change?!?!
If you could explain the thought process I would be fine with it... I just don't get the reason for ripping a midslot out of it and giving it a lowslot.
Basically, I (and others here), would like to know why. Stabbers are totally broken
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15116553
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Benny Ohu
Beneath the Ashes Margin of Silence
2790
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 17:16:00 -
[56] - Quote
move survey scanner, ship scanner and cargo scanner to highslots, change strip miners to turrets, add utility highs to skiff and procurer?
hulks and covetors can rely on orca scan ("fleet ships"), macks and rets are afk anyway
then rework mining completely and scrap it all because mining is horrible |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
688
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 17:17:00 -
[57] - Quote
PROCURER
Mining Barge Bonus per level: +5% Shield HP -4% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration
Role Bonuses: +125% Bonus to Strip Miner yield -60% Ice Harvester duration and capacitor use +50% Drone mining yield and Hitpoints
Slot layout: 1H, 3M(-1), 3L(+1); Fittings: 45 PWG, 255(+5) CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6000 / 5000 / 5500 Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 800 / 187.5s / 4.27 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 160(+70) / 1 / 10,000,000 / 13.86s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 75(+25) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km(+7.5km) / 660 / 5(+1) Sensor strength: 10 Signature radius: 150(-50) Ore Bay: 14000m3
RETRIEVER
Mining Barge Bonus per level: +5% Ore Hold capacity -2% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration
Role Bonuses: +25% Bonus to Strip Miner yield -20% Ice Harvester duration and capacitor use
Slot layout: 2H, 3(+2)M, 3L; Fittings: 35 PWG, 235 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2300 / 1700 / 2000 Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 550(+300) / 187.5s / 1.33 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 90(+10) / 0.659 / 20,000,000 / 18.26s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 50 (+25) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km(+7.5km) / 660 / 5 Sensor strength: 9 Signature radius: 250 Ore Bay: 22000m3
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Lidia Caderu
Harbingers of Chaos Inc The East India Co.
27
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 17:18:00 -
[58] - Quote
Make T1 and T2 crystals 10m3 in size, please! It would just make life much easier. Especially for covetor (it would be also nice to increase its cargo bay, to have full pack of crystalls + extra for replasment).
Also please consider thar covetor is paper thin so its always ganked i n 0.5-0.6 (sometimes even in 0.7).
And second, do you realize that higher yeild is better than lower strip cycle time? Because of lower crystal damage rate. So why are you giving time bonus instead of giving higher yeild bonus? Keeping that in mind covetor will wear down crystals even faster.
Procurer is new mining king. Including 3 lows, tank and drone bonus. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1825
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 17:21:00 -
[59] - Quote
Nice changes.
Hope not April Foops. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate Naquatech Syndicate
1504
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 17:29:00 -
[60] - Quote
Seems legit |
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