I dont want to turn this into a gankers vs bears thread, my arguments are to do with making the other barges viable and not having just two barges being used by near everyone.

In answer to you, the gank cats risk getting attacked by anyone and are ironically, profitable to gank. PvP is player vs player, it doesn't matter how one sided it is, it is still pvp. You might not like it but others do. Now, realistically, the only threat a high sec miner will ever face is from said gankers.

For gods sake and 1000 times more: WHY???
Let the miner do their mining (they love it, do it, need it, whatever), its necessary to the economy.
Ganking a miner isn't PvP, it's bullshit. They are easy prey for kids with no balls to engage a real opponent.
Force them to PvP and you will end in a silent room.... that sounds fun

This is a PVP game. Player VS Player, What the barges need in this modern day of combat are more teeth on the barges. Raise the tank on them and buff there drone bonuses. Keep them so that the Barges will mine all day But have the ability to Defend themselves. Increase the Lock time on some of them but buff there survivability. This way there is actual PVP involved when ganks occur.

Raise the tank on them and buff there drone bonuses.

Remember this is a game of supposed decisions and trade-offs.

I'd have no issue with the procurer/skiff actually being able to defend itself for real, so long as it lost some of its insane tank in exchange. This would promote actual interaction and reward attentiveness rather than current reliance on an unbreakable tank before omnipotent CONCORD arrives.

The best tool for survivability in this game is awareness. You appear to want something that leaves you functionally immune to the choices of other players while maintaining no awareness, which, is part of the reason miners draw such negative attention to themselves in the first place.

This is a PVP game. Player VS Player, What the barges need in this modern day of combat are more teeth on the barges. Raise the tank on them and buff there drone bonuses. Keep them so that the Barges will mine all day But have the ability to Defend themselves. Increase the Lock time on some of them but buff there survivability. This way there is actual PVP involved when ganks occur.

If you build an active mechanic, you create active players. If you build a passive mechanic, you get the level of personal investment that you designed for. Fitting a tank still doesn't make you immune to anything. It just raises the bar of success a bit, which is fine. If I'm allowed to tank a BS to be gank resistant, no reason I shouldn't be able to do it with a barge; they don't live in a no PvP bubble and we should probably stop trying to balance them like they do.

I have nothing againt people being able to fit a good tank but they should have to make sacrifices. The issue with the mack is that its base tank is too high, it should be the same as the hulk. These ships all have different roles but right now the mac and ret have too much overlap on the others. Hence why almost all miners are in them.

I have to agree with this. The mack and ret are just a little bit too tough. Perhaps lower the numbers a little more to make the skiff/proc better by comparison.

No level of fittings on a barge or exhumer will stop a determined gank, they will just bring x more dessies to apply dps in time. The barges only hope would be if the fittings allowed a better set of escape assisting modules to be fitted. The only drivers to stop ganks is the cost of the dessies versus the value of the kill. Making more expensive barges/exhumers will simply make them more tempting targets with the same nil chance of survival against competent gankers (though feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

Good fellows, it appears to be that perhaps this update draws a bit less attention than say the Pirate Faction Cruiser update.

What did you expect? This is a mining thread, not a yarr thread. Nobody cares about us miners until the price of $MINERAL_X shoots through the roof and the cost of their ships goes up in response. At which point CCP lays off the bots until things settle down and we're back in the same spot we started in.

Having all the sperg posters in the other threads is a good thing. We might get the barge balance right this time.

I realize you're a Goon, but you're taking this to a whole new level of delusional

The value in ganking a barge only comes from the mods. The hulk, if I recall, has the same base tank as many t2 cruisers and if you fit a T2 tank its not going to be anywhere near profitable to gank. Even the pre buff hulk was on par with heavy assault ships with its base tank. Macks would be just fine with the hulks base tank.

The hulk is notably less tanked, because it is NOT intended to be solo to the same degree a mack or skiff would be.

Could someone please point out to me where and why the "Hulks are not intended to be solo / Hulks are only meant for fleets" meme got started?

The Covetor and Hulk remain the kings of yield, at the expense of tank and ore hold capacity. Their abilities in large scale group mining will be further improved through the addition of a 5% per level bonus to mining laser and ice harvester optimal range.

The Covetor and Hulk cater to group mining operations due to their large mining capability, low EHP and storage, forcing them to rely on others to haul and resupply them with mining crystals.

Could someone please point out to me where and why the "Hulks are not intended to be solo / Hulks are only meant for fleets" meme got started?

stuff

Meme?

You had not noticed that they had less hold capacity, requiring them to either jet can or use haulers more often?
Perhaps the less capable tank escaped your notice, which would suggest they expected more protection from outside sources.

I believe the details speak for themselves.

Having flown barges (and then exhumers) almost from the day they were released, I'm well aware of their strengths and limitations. I was jet-can mining out of my hulk for years, and saw absolutely nothing wrong with making my command ship alt swap out for an Iteron every other hour to come pick up the ore. That was the trade-off in the day... uber yield with barely enough cargo for two cycles, *AFTER* loading up a full compliment of crystals. Following the first so-called "balance" (which I can't remember many people asking for, but that's a different story), the original T2 specialties were replaced with uber tank, uber hold, and barely-better yield with practically no space for spare lenses. Give the hulk enough cargo (or an ammo bay) to carry a full set of crystals and an ore bay that'll barely accommodate two full cycles of mining, and I'll shut up, because it'll then be able to function as an asteroid's worst nightmare.

Forcing hulk pilots to have someone else constantly feeding them crystals is just plain dumb. When's the last time you asked a maelstrom pilot to rely on someone flying a wreath to feed them shells in the middle of a fleet fight? Oh, what's that? You haven't? Sorry for pointing out such an incredibly flawed and ASININE suggestion. Of course a battleship pilot would bring enough ammo, of multiple types, for a fleet fight. They'd be laughed out of comms (after the FC personally podded them) if they didn't. So why is CCP forcing hulk pilots to do this, when the majority of miners I know prefer to either work alone, or in groups no larger than three or four others? The last "all hands" corp mining op I remember even being called was back in 2004, when I was barely more than an ENB refugee in high sec. That's how laughable the idea is.

So why is CCP forcing hulk pilots to do this, when the majority of miners I know prefer to either work alone, or in groups no larger than three or four others ?

No level of fittings on a barge or exhumer will stop a determined gank, they will just bring x more dessies to apply dps in time. The barges only hope would be if the fittings allowed a better set of escape assisting modules to be fitted. The only drivers to stop ganks is the cost of the dessies versus the value of the kill. Making more expensive barges/exhumers will simply make them more tempting targets with the same nil chance of survival against competent gankers (though feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

The hulk is yield king in order to promote group play. I believe it is really that simple.

With CCP directly stating that their opinion about Covetor/Hulk is that they do want them to be dependant on support suggests this.

Ok, but then why is CCP forcing fleet activity onto hulk pilots, when no other class is forced to operate in this way to perform its primary function?