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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Atum
Eclipse Industrials Quantum Forge
91
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Posted - 2014.04.11 01:07:00 -
[361] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Atum wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:If only the orca supporting your fleet could being crystals. Then all your problems would be solved... Jagoff Haverford wrote:You may start an op with an undamaged crystal but finish just an hour or so later with somebody else's 98% damaged one. No, they wouldn't, and Jagoff tells you exactly why four posts up. Then specialise each miner. Miner 1 gets all the ore X, miner 2 the Y, miner 3 the Z, ... Bigger fleet could put different ratio of ship on different ore depending on how much there is on the field. At that point, you need less total set of crystals. And you'll have the miner "specialized" in veld whining endlessly that (s)he got shafted because someone else got to mine ark. |
Vic Jefferson
Life. Universe. Everything. Clockwork Pineapple
1
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Posted - 2014.04.11 02:51:00 -
[362] - Quote
DetKhord Saisio wrote:The yield needs to be enough to pay for a replacement Hulk in an hour or two...
Asking for 200m/hr solo mining in hi-sec is dubious at best. You really think that would be a good thing? PLEX prices would skyrocket! Losing your barge is 99% preventable and takes a fair bit of negligence, you shouldn't expect to have it replaced so easily. The entire point of the hulk is for fleet mining in safety - if you want to solo mine, use one of the other options. |
Jagoff Haverford
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
128
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Posted - 2014.04.11 05:40:00 -
[363] - Quote
Atum wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Atum wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:If only the orca supporting your fleet could being crystals. Then all your problems would be solved... Jagoff Haverford wrote:You may start an op with an undamaged crystal but finish just an hour or so later with somebody else's 98% damaged one. No, they wouldn't, and Jagoff tells you exactly why four posts up. Then specialise each miner. Miner 1 gets all the ore X, miner 2 the Y, miner 3 the Z, ... Bigger fleet could put different ratio of ship on different ore depending on how much there is on the field. At that point, you need less total set of crystals. And you'll have the miner "specialized" in veld whining endlessly that (s)he got shafted because someone else got to mine ark. It's not like we haven't tried all of these ideas over the last 2 years, you know. If the crystal limit was something that worked to promote large fleets in outside of high sec, you would see large fleets of hulks outside of high sec. The only time I have seen them used in null us by large single-player IsBoxer fleets.
Again, nobody is saying that the Hulk shouldn't be specialized for fleet mining. The hulk should require fleet support. All we are saying is that crystal capacity is a horrible mechanic to use in promotion of that goal. It clearly has not worked to achieve that goal, given the absence of Hulk mining fleets. All it does is add a layer of frustration that frequently results in miners having to warp out to load new crystals or mining crystal-less (which T2 strip miners really don't do well) while waiting for a replacement. The minute this happens, the Hulk loses its "king of yield" crown to other ships that don't have this problem.
All kinds of remedies have been tried here. But even if they "work", the verdict is obvious. They aren't worth the hassle for anyone except mutiboxing mining armies.
Yes, yes -- I'm sure there are exceptions. I'm sure there are those who will say, "I'm using my Hulk just fine in deep null, HTFU!". I'm sure that your best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl whose corp runs Hulk fleets every night in their wormhole.
But these are exceptions, and rare ones at that. This thread began with CCP bemoaning the lack of diversity in ship selection for mining, and suggesting ways of getting players into ships other than the Mackinaw and Retreiver. Adding range to the Hulk's lasers is not going to change things, or make me dust off the Hulk that has sat in my hangar for the last 18 months. Adding crystal capacity will.
There has to be a better way of promoting the use of the Hulk with fleet support. Limits on crystals haven't worked. That's all I'm saying. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
9646
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Posted - 2014.04.11 10:58:00 -
[364] - Quote
Hello everyone. Thanks for the great discussion and feedback so far.
We're making some changes based on your feedback, mainly involving some buffs to the Hulk/Covetor line, the Procurer slot change being reversed, and some improvements to associated systems like mining crystal volume and survey scanner range (through gang links).
We're upgrading Strip Miners and Ice Harvester duration bonus to -4% per level of Mining Barge skill for Covetor and Hulk, and -3% per level of Exhumer skill for Hulk.
Swapping the low back to a mid for the Procurer. As many of your correctly pointed out, watering down the Procurer's area of specialty to give it more yield just watered down its distinctiveness and value.
+5 PWG and +10 CPU for the Hulk
20% better agility for the Hulk and Covetor
-110 scan res for the Retriever and Mackinaw, -220 scan res for the Procurer and Skiff. This is being done partly to ensure that the Hulk has a small relative lock time advantage and partly to avoid making the Procurer and Skiff to powerful in combat. The lock time of all barges and exhumers is still obscenely good.
60% reduction in mining crystal volume.
The Mining Laser Field Enhancement gang link now increases Survey Scanner range as well as mining laser range.
The OP has been updated. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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Galphii
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
220
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Posted - 2014.04.11 10:59:00 -
[365] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote::Updated to the second iteration on April 11th, thanks for the feedback so far:
We are implementing the following updates to the plan thanks to your feedback and dicusssion:
To ensure that the Covetor and Hulk can make use of their extra mining range in group situations, we are changing the Mining Laser Field Enhancement gang link to apply its range bonus to Survey Scanners in addition to its current function.
To make sure that barge pilots can make use of the many different ORE types available in belts and anomalies, we are reducing the volume of all mining crystals by 60%.
We're giving the Hulk and Covetor a bit more yield and agility, and the Hulk is getting slightly more fittings.
The scan resolution on the Retriever and Mackinaw is being reduced by 17%, and the Procurer and Skiff reduced by 33%. This is partially to provide a small lock speed advantage to the Covetor/Hulk, and partially to ensure that the Procurer and Skiff avoid becoming too powerful in combat. The scan resolution on all barges remains exceptionally good, comparable to destroyers and frigates.
The image was just confusing people, so I'm removing it.
I'd forgotten to mention that mining crystals are kinda huge, so glad to see someone thought of it! This will also help those daring, handsome Venture pilots who mount modulated deep core miner II's and can now carry a 2nd set of crystals in that tiny cargo hold.
Good to see the scan res reduction for barges. I could never figure out why it was so damn good in the first place. I see you're leaving the procurer/skiff drone damage bonus as is, which is fine. Might be a tad overpowered for the procurer but we'll see how it goes over the next 6 months. X |
Darkblad
Hilfe is like Free Entertainment
173
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Posted - 2014.04.11 11:09:00 -
[366] - Quote
My Calculator Sheet (create/download a copy) got updated with the Hulk/Covetor Traits and Procurer Lowslot Changes EVE Infolinks -+-áOld and new-áPortraits |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3025
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Posted - 2014.04.11 11:10:00 -
[367] - Quote
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1os33ZVJKyRfG3GY3taX0Se25dlTbNOoCLHprP7WoRKQ/edit?usp=sharing
Updated with the changes. (assuming the skiff mid to low isn't changed) Steve Ronuken for CSM 9! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4236322 http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
2528
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Posted - 2014.04.11 11:22:00 -
[368] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: 20% better agility for the Hulk and Covetor
I'm not sure why the Hulk and Covetor need such a powerful defensive bonus. Their entire design is that they are the glass cannons of mining.
As for the yield oriented changes - I approve of them. Particularly the reduced space that mining crystals take up - nothing worse than ganking a miner, then trying to scoop the loot and having the crystals take up all the available space in your hold. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=326497 --áPsychotic Monk for CSM! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. If you want to mine in highsec, read www.minerbumping.com. |
mkint
1144
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Posted - 2014.04.11 11:24:00 -
[369] - Quote
Still a bad change. The entire mineral supply is getting it's double-nerf in the same expansion, and for why? There has not been a good explanation for it. Or any explanation whatsoever.
The old Role Bonuses were a good thing. It made it clear that all the barges started on equal ground for yield, and anything beyond that was all skills. I have EFT, and know how to use it. It's not my problem, but it was a useful statistic for new players. Whereas the old instructions to new players were "all barges start at the same rate and the rest is skills" the new instructions is "screw you, figure it out your own damned selves." No wonder your new player retention sucks so bad, given your attitude towards them. Maxim 34: If you're leaving scorch-marks, you need a bigger gun. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2300
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Posted - 2014.04.11 11:46:00 -
[370] - Quote
Any chance of including a mining drone enhancement for the skiff and procurer with the damage and HP bonus? -á --á |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
9647
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Posted - 2014.04.11 11:50:00 -
[371] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Any chance of including a mining drone enhancement for the skiff and procurer with the damage and HP bonus?
We considered that, but to make it balanced we'd need to nerf the strip miner yield on those ships, which isn't ideal. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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Yato Shihari
The TERRA Guardians of Serenity
2
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Posted - 2014.04.11 12:14:00 -
[372] - Quote
I use my Procurer in low-sec primarily because the rats can do a lot of damage to a Covetor/Retriever with less HP and only one medium slot. Frankly, except in the case of solo frigates maybe (vs Procurer), any of the three mining barges are as good as dead if I get scrammed.
However, it looks like the Retriever and Procurer will still have the same approximate yield (+9% on the Retriever because of the extra MLU as usual), so I'm hoping mineral prices will adjust accordingly. I suppose the extra drones will help too, as I can pop in some mining drones to help with yield while having combat backups. |
Atum
Eclipse Industrials Quantum Forge
91
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Posted - 2014.04.11 12:20:00 -
[373] - Quote
Jagoff Haverford wrote:Atum wrote: Then specialise each miner. Miner 1 gets all the ore X, miner 2 the Y, miner 3 the Z, ... Bigger fleet could put different ratio of ship on different ore depending on how much there is on the field. At that point, you need less total set of crystals.
It's not like we haven't tried all of these ideas over the last 2 years, you know. If the crystal limit was something that worked to promote large fleets outside of high sec, you would see large fleets of hulks outside of high sec. The only time I have seen them used in null is by large single-player IsBoxer fleets.. That wasn't me... that was Frostys.
Jagoff Haverford wrote:Yes, yes -- I'm sure there are exceptions. I'm sure there are those who will say, "I'm using my Hulk just fine in deep null, HTFU!". I'm sure that your best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl whose corp runs Hulk fleets every night in their wormhole. There's a corp that runs large mining ops? Do they pay? Actually, deep null is about the only place I'd expect to see Cov/Hulks in any great number... oceans of blue surrounding and plenty of intel channels.
\o/
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:I'm not sure why the Hulk and Covetor need such a powerful defensive bonus. Their entire design is that they are the glass cannons of mining. I'm guessing the thought ran something along the lines of "Proc/Skiff can super tank, Ret/Mack can tank well enough as well, so we'll give Cov/Hulk the Monty Python defense... RUN AWAY!!! RUN AWAY!!! |
Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
2528
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Posted - 2014.04.11 12:28:00 -
[374] - Quote
Atum wrote:Sabriz Adoudel wrote:I'm not sure why the Hulk and Covetor need such a powerful defensive bonus. Their entire design is that they are the glass cannons of mining. I'm guessing the thought ran something along the lines of "Proc/Skiff can super tank, Ret/Mack can tank well enough as well, so we'll give Cov/Hulk the Monty Python defense... RUN AWAY!!! RUN AWAY!!!
Their defence should be in the form of vigilance before hostiles are on grid with you. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=326497 --áPsychotic Monk for CSM! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. If you want to mine in highsec, read www.minerbumping.com. |
Max Kolonko
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
387
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Posted - 2014.04.11 12:39:00 -
[375] - Quote
Fozzie. I have question that touches exhumers and also all other T2 ship in the game and have been puzzling me for years now.
Is there a specific reason why bonuses on T2 ships are splitted to both: T1 and T2 hull skill?
Apart from corner cases where player looses his lvl 5 skill for T1 hull (therefore loosing abity to fly that ship anyway) this is always lvl 5. So i think it should be presented in traits tab as flat bonus. 25% to damage instead of 5% per hull level for example.
Maybe there is good reason for this, but the way i see it just adds needles complexity when comparing and evaluating ships by adding more math where it should not be needed. Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff? |
Atum
Eclipse Industrials Quantum Forge
91
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Posted - 2014.04.11 12:47:00 -
[376] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:Atum wrote:Sabriz Adoudel wrote:I'm not sure why the Hulk and Covetor need such a powerful defensive bonus. Their entire design is that they are the glass cannons of mining. I'm guessing the thought ran something along the lines of "Proc/Skiff can super tank, Ret/Mack can tank well enough as well, so we'll give Cov/Hulk the Monty Python defense... RUN AWAY!!! RUN AWAY!!! Their defence should be in the form of vigilance before hostiles are on grid with you. It is... but when your align time is measured in weeks (well, ok, just shy of 25s base), every little bit helps. That, and intys are getting a huge buff with the warp mechanic changes, so while it used to be that beginning the align/warp process when someone showed up in local was enough, now there's a fair shot you'll have to start it while the hostile is still a jump or two away, just to be sure. |
Dave Stark
4881
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Posted - 2014.04.11 13:01:00 -
[377] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Any chance of including a mining drone enhancement for the skiff and procurer with the damage and HP bonus? We considered that, but to make it balanced we'd need to nerf the strip miner yield on those ships, which isn't ideal.
but you did, by reversing the slot lay out. |
Azami Nevinyrall
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1825
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Posted - 2014.04.11 13:26:00 -
[378] - Quote
Thanks for keeping the Proc the same!
Didn't want to loose my tank to fit a long point in my PVP fit!
I'd love to have a second utility highslot! New player experience, more highsec PvE missions, casual play, balance, counters to AFK cloaking, expanding the NEX store, and Power Projection.
Azami Nevinyrall for CSM9! |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
5186
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Posted - 2014.04.11 13:29:00 -
[379] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Any chance of including a mining drone enhancement for the skiff and procurer with the damage and HP bonus? We considered that, but to make it balanced we'd need to nerf the strip miner yield on those ships, which isn't ideal. but you did, by reversing the slot lay out.
And the yield on the Mack is still too damned high. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Guth'Alak
EVE University Ivy League
1
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Posted - 2014.04.11 13:36:00 -
[380] - Quote
give exhumers a slot for cov ops cloak so miners feel more encouraged to leave high sec and use of those empty asteroid fields in low and null sec. |
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Atum
Eclipse Industrials Quantum Forge
91
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Posted - 2014.04.11 13:42:00 -
[381] - Quote
Guth'Alak wrote:give exhumers a slot for cov ops cloak so miners feel more encouraged to leave high sec and use of those empty asteroid fields in low and null sec. CovOps cloak? No. *Maybe* just a general utility high, but cloaky warping barges? Please |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15045
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Posted - 2014.04.11 13:46:00 -
[382] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote: 20% better agility for the Hulk and Covetor
I'm not sure why the Hulk and Covetor need such a powerful defensive bonus. Their entire design is that they are the glass cannons of mining.
Warping off is basically the Hulk's only defence. Currently, a Hulk takes 16.7s to get into warp. Taking that down to 13.4 seconds will, I am confident, not leave the Hulk threatening too many HACs.
Here is my CSM9 endorsement list - vote for diversity of expertise : Ali Aras-á Mangala Solaris-á Mike Azariah-á Steve Ronuken James Arget-á Xander Phoena-á Sugar Kyle-á corbexx-á mynnna-á progodlegend-á Psychotic Monk-á Jayne Fillion
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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4092
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Posted - 2014.04.11 13:55:00 -
[383] - Quote
Atum wrote:Guth'Alak wrote:give exhumers a slot for cov ops cloak so miners feel more encouraged to leave high sec and use of those empty asteroid fields in low and null sec. CovOps cloak? No. *Maybe* just a general utility high, but cloaky warping barges? Please No... wait... this is actually the right kind of crazy.
Give them a special cloak which allows use of mining lasers, (each needing a special targeting prompt to engage passively while cloaked). For the targeting, just click on the laser with nothing locked, it already does this by default.
The hostile, warping to the belt, looks for the tell tale of lasers hitting rocks, and heads over to get closer.
This is the good part, follow carefully here.
The miner, KNOWING they are cloaked and cannot be targeted, has no reason to run. The hunter, seeing the laser, gets closer to the miner.
The hunter needs to decloak, in order to do ANYTHING offensive. By decloaking, they immediately alert the miner, who kills the mining laser, effectively removing the only clue to their whereabouts.
Now, IF the hostile is decloaked and has smart bombs, they can set them off, and hope their target is in range. The mining ship should be trying to back away, out of such range. (Time to call friends, if applicable)
It kind of reminds me of the old grid and peg game, battleship, where players try to guess each others location for combat.
I would love to test out encounters using these details. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked... |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
734
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Posted - 2014.04.11 14:14:00 -
[384] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Any chance of including a mining drone enhancement for the skiff and procurer with the damage and HP bonus? We considered that, but to make it balanced we'd need to nerf the strip miner yield on those ships, which isn't ideal.
its weird you will give a mining drone bonus to a combat ship like the vexor but not to a actual mining ship... consider removing a turret/high and adding it to their mid slots/low slots... also look at making harvester mining drones worth using 200mil a pop is crazy.. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
973
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Posted - 2014.04.11 14:20:00 -
[385] - Quote
Atum wrote:Guth'Alak wrote:give exhumers a slot for cov ops cloak so miners feel more encouraged to leave high sec and use of those empty asteroid fields in low and null sec. CovOps cloak? No. *Maybe* just a general utility high, but cloaky warping barges? Please A utility high would be interesting. I'd love to see more mining in lowsec and that would certainly help. Not covops of course. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Atum
Eclipse Industrials Quantum Forge
91
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Posted - 2014.04.11 14:25:00 -
[386] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:also look at making harvester mining drones worth using 200mil a pop is crazy.. They're collector's items, hence the cost. Sorta like Anaconda/Asp/Cobra/Python mines... relics from a time long ago |
Thead Enco
47th Ronin
130
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Posted - 2014.04.11 14:38:00 -
[387] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hello everyone. Thanks for the great discussion and feedback so far.
We're making some changes based on your feedback, mainly involving some buffs to the Hulk/Covetor line, the Procurer slot change being reversed, and some improvements to associated systems like mining crystal volume and survey scanner range (through gang links).
We're upgrading Strip Miners and Ice Harvester duration bonus to -4% per level of Mining Barge skill for Covetor and Hulk, and -3% per level of Exhumer skill for Hulk.
Swapping the low back to a mid for the Procurer. As many of your correctly pointed out, watering down the Procurer's area of specialty to give it more yield just watered down its distinctiveness and value.
+5 PWG and +10 CPU for the Hulk
20% better agility for the Hulk and Covetor
-110 scan res for the Retriever and Mackinaw, -220 scan res for the Procurer and Skiff. This is being done partly to ensure that the Hulk has a small relative lock time advantage and partly to avoid making the Procurer and Skiff too powerful in combat. The lock time of all barges and exhumers is still obscenely good.
60% reduction in mining crystal volume.
The Mining Laser Field Enhancement gang link now increases Survey Scanner range as well as mining laser range.
The OP has been updated.
Great changes ahead, Continue doing God's work good sir......
-á"A Lannister always pays his debts."
-áTyrion Lannister |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
734
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Posted - 2014.04.11 14:43:00 -
[388] - Quote
i still don't see why a drone damage bonus is on a mining ship??? Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
360
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Posted - 2014.04.11 14:44:00 -
[389] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:i still don't see why a drone damage bonus is on a mining ship??? sometimes the bad men come to explode the mining ship
the gimmick of the procurer/skiff is increased ability for defense in exchange for yield and cargohold
sometimes the best defense is a good cliche |
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4092
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Posted - 2014.04.11 14:45:00 -
[390] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:i still don't see why a drone damage bonus is on a mining ship??? It creates the beginning of an option besides evasion, in parts of the game where Concord does not exist. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked... |
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