Originally by: Lord WarATron

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Edited by: Lord WarATron on 04/08/2006 12:58:00

Originally by: Powder Monkey

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They don't give a sh. so you'll be better off wasting your time losing apocs and geddons

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Apoc

H: Nos, 1 smartbomb
M: MWD, 2x 20km scram, EW or web
L: 2 t2 reps, 3 EANMII's, rest plates/Damage control etc

Tactic lock down target and use drones for the kill

More viable in PvP than pretty much any other apoc I have seen even though the setup is a joke itself. Is this the direction we want PvP to go?

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Originally by: eLLioTT wave

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What's everyone think about ditching all our resist bonuses and change it to repair amount bonus?

This could possibly be a bonus applying to all amarr ships with a few exceptions which would fit in RP wise as we are supposed to be tankers.

5% bonus to repair amount per level?

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Originally by: Justice 4all

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The reason the laser's cap usage is so high is because they are (were) the most damaging weapon in eve before. So to keep people from using them on other ships CCP made them have super high cap usage and give amarr ships a cap usage bonus.

HOWEVER, someone already did the math to show the EANMII+Damage Control setup has reduced our damage by 28% across the board. So we no longer have that "built in" damage mod everyone always talks about. Easy thing is to remove the cap bonus for lasers, and give lasers a 50% cap reduction. Nobody will use them on other ships still because of the EANMII problem.

NOW give all those ships that had that bonus a 5% damage or ROF bonus...BINGO... We are right back to where we were before amarr got slammed by this unforseen nerf. I think (after reading all this) that this would be a very doable thing that wouldn't overpower amarr but put them back on par.

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Edited by: Aramendel on 04/08/2006 11:27:59

Originally by: Nemain

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...Give all races a ship skill boni like in the old days, it would make life alot easier on the likes or poor old hen pecked tux, in general in my view. Mind you my view is slightly influenced by sleep deprivation so it is probaly way out

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The problem is that it is way way way too late for something like this.

We have TONs of people not flying their races ships - it's not really a good idea to penalize those for nothing.

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Na, just make lasers use no energy and give the amarr ships a bonus for ROF or damage instead capacitator use.

Hey, it worked for the minnies!

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Originally by: Cosmo Raata

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Yes, a Vampoc was a great option, right up to the point the devs said they are going to nerf nos, yet another topic amarr need to post & fight on.

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Originally by: Wodin Drukvik

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Originally by: Cosmo Raata

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Yes, a Vampoc was a great option, right up to the point the devs said they are going to nerf nos, yet another topic amarr need to post & fight on.

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To be fair, if there's any ship that has the fitting space to mount neutralizers, it's the Apoc.

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Originally by: Justice 4all

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HOWEVER, someone already did the math to show the EANMII+Damage Control setup has reduced our damage by 28% across the board. So we no longer have that "built in" damage mod everyone always talks about. Easy thing is to remove the cap bonus for lasers, and give lasers a 50% cap reduction. Nobody will use them on other ships still because of the EANMII problem.

NOW give all those ships that had that bonus a 5% damage or ROF bonus...BINGO... We are right back to where we were before amarr got slammed by this unforseen nerf. I think (after reading all this) that this would be a very doable thing that wouldn't overpower amarr but put them back on par.

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Originally by: DrEiak

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BUMP!
I am sticking by my guns, I say reduce laser cap useage by about 25% flat (so lasers that hypothetically use 100 base cap would use 75), change controlled burst skill to 10% reduction. (so that for each 75 cap it could be reduced to 37.5 cap) Then change all our 10% reduction bonuses to something else. Compared to the current system with maxed skills 100 cap would be reduced to 75 via controlled burst lvl 5. Then ship skills would reduce it by 50% to 37.5. same cap, but this applys to all races regarding lasers, so if they REALLY wanted to anyone COULD POTENTAILLY fit them. ALSO gallente would stop *****ing about how much cap blasters use because controlled burst would help em out. Amarr would get a roll boost because that 10% could be moved to RoF, Damage, Tank, NOS/Neut bonuses (which we SHOULD get anyways!), drone bonuses (maybe), even a missle bonus (add a launcher hardpoint or 2 to the arbi please). Amarr ships could do their job, lasers would be mostly unchanged, and our ships would fill their rolls better by having 2 bonuses instead of just one. Plus lasers really dont melt shields like i head someone saying. Shield tankers highest resists are often EM and thermal. Plus shield tanking is more efficent then armor tanking. Many amarr ships could use a 10% armor increase skill or a 5% resist skill instead of that 10% laser cap reduction, so I think my suggestion is not FUBAR.

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Originally by: Cosmo Raata

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Originally by: eLLioTT wave

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What's everyone think about ditching all our resist bonuses and change it to repair amount bonus?

This could possibly be a bonus applying to all amarr ships with a few exceptions which would fit in RP wise as we are supposed to be tankers.

5% bonus to repair amount per level?

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Honestly I think a 50% cap reduction is in order on all lasers, then remove the uselss bonus that left over & then ccp should poll its players for suggestions on bonuses for each ships that needs a new bonus. Repair amount on the apoc would be nice as a suggestion. But I think the Abaddon needs to be changed entirely, otherwise who cares whats done to the Apoc or Geddy, as all i'd fly would be abaddons.

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Originally by: Xordus

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Originally by: DrEiak

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BUMP!
I am sticking by my guns, I say reduce laser cap useage by about 25% flat (so lasers that hypothetically use 100 base cap would use 75), change controlled burst skill to 10% reduction. (so that for each 75 cap it could be reduced to 37.5 cap) Then change all our 10% reduction bonuses to something else. Compared to the current system with maxed skills 100 cap would be reduced to 75 via controlled burst lvl 5. Then ship skills would reduce it by 50% to 37.5. same cap, but this applys to all races regarding lasers, so if they REALLY wanted to anyone COULD POTENTAILLY fit them. ALSO gallente would stop *****ing about how much cap blasters use because controlled burst would help em out. Amarr would get a roll boost because that 10% could be moved to RoF, Damage, Tank, NOS/Neut bonuses (which we SHOULD get anyways!), drone bonuses (maybe), even a missle bonus (add a launcher hardpoint or 2 to the arbi please). Amarr ships could do their job, lasers would be mostly unchanged, and our ships would fill their rolls better by having 2 bonuses instead of just one. Plus lasers really dont melt shields like i head someone saying. Shield tankers highest resists are often EM and thermal. Plus shield tanking is more efficent then armor tanking. Many amarr ships could use a 10% armor increase skill or a 5% resist skill instead of that 10% laser cap reduction, so I think my suggestion is not FUBAR.

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It is my opinion that lasers are supposed to be high cap, high damage. Amarr ships have the best cap of any and as such they can maintain these weapons. Reducing cap consumption doesn't fix any of the problems lasers face.

The two problems with lasers is base damage output and the fact that said damage output is in the form of the two most tankable damage types. You can argue shields are weak to lasers, but its not difficult to fill those holes and shield tanks only make up maybe 35% of the ships ingame.

In order to fix energy weapons, all lasers need to do atleast 5% more damage than they do right now, or better yet they need to have either a tertiary damage type or the ability to switch damage types. Until this is addressed, lasers will continue to be underpowered in the world of eve.


Xordus

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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Originally by: Nicocat

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Aren't there lenses that turn the lasers into mostly thermal, or do they carry such abhorrent penalties that nobody uses them?

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Yes they have. Up to 50/50.
Also if you read what i wrote on this page you will see that small projectile guns have better damage than small lasers with comparable fitting requirement. Yes - medium pulse lasers have one of highest damages from frig guns, but also have WAY higher fitting requirements (abt 2x more than a bit worse 200mm autocannon). And they still use up cap like crazy.

So... we get weapon that has same or lower damage than projectiles (like gatling/dual pulse vs 150/200mm autocannon), higher fitting requirements, more cap usage, and where minimi pump up that damage EVEN higher we get... cap reduction. Sth is really wrong here.

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Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne

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seeing how people realize that we do sucky damage due to the high em resistances lasers face i'm wondering why most seem to think that the obvious answer to that is to give lasers more damage.

the problem lies with the em resistance not the base damage on lasers...so fix/tweak the resistance instead of making lasers even more powerful against ships which can not fit an eanmII tank or are shieldtanking. a way to achieve that would be reducing the base em resistance on armor and increasing it on shields...

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Originally by: eLLioTT wave

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Edited by: eLLioTT wave on 05/08/2006 11:13:56
cmon someone reply to my idea ^

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne

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seeing how people realize that we do sucky damage due to the high em resistances lasers face i'm wondering why most seem to think that the obvious answer to that is to give lasers more damage.

the problem lies with the em resistance not the base damage on lasers...so fix/tweak the resistance instead of making lasers even more powerful against ships which can not fit an eanmII tank or are shieldtanking. a way to achieve that would be reducing the base em resistance on armor and increasing it on shields...

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At least someone eelse who sees this..I've almost given up.

The EAN2 problem is really only really severe on the BC and BS lvl. For frigates it is a nonfactor. Although lasers have there other problems because our shortrange lasers have the *worst* tracking of all shortrange weapons and the way tracking works when orbiting at high speed (see here ). But, again, that is no laser issue, but a general tracking issue.
And cruisers usually do not have enough slots to mount a 3 harderner tank without gimping their setup.

And, nevermind that boosting laser damage so it would be equal against EAN2 tanker armor vs other weapon would whack things out of balance vs untanked setups and shieldtankers.

And a 10% controlled bursts would also help gallente quite a lot. I have nothing against balancing other races, but in this apsect gallente plain out do not need any boost.

As said before, make armor EM resistance 40%. Would give lasers effeciently about a 20-25% dps boost vs armor. And in exchange increase shield resistance to 20%. Which would actualyl help lasers as well. because shieldtankers owuld be much less likely to fit an EM only harderner to stuff their resistance hole.

The basic problem of lasers is really that they are too specialized. They are to good vs shields (so good that shieldtanking people use EM only harderners and negate the bonus) and too bad vs armor. Making them a bit better vs armor (but still the worst weapon against them, just not by that an huge amount) and a bit worse against shield (but still the best weapon against them, just...) seems to me the perfect solution.

And while this is done you might as well balance the NPC resists as well. Because the "too specialized" problem applies there too. Increase blood/sansha EM resistance a bit and reduce gurista/angels a bit. I would be really nice to be able to rat npcs exept blood/sanshas halfway effeciently as amarr. You know, like all other races can do.

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Originally by: Wheya

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The idea to remove em resistance from armor and to add this resistance to shields is a very shortsighted quickfix with terrible effects in the long run.

Shield tanking already is more powerfull than armor tanking especially if you look at incredibly overpowered faction mods. The only reason why we don't see many shield tankers is because ECM > shield tank > armor tank. Shield tanking doesn't need a boost and armor tanking doesn't need a nerf.

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Quote:

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EANII and invulnerable shieldhardeners are overpowered compared to 'standard' hardeners. That's the problem.

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Quote:

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The only reason why we don't see minnies complain about incredible high explosive resistance on shields is because almost nobody is shield tanking.

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