Before the patch all of my freighter BPOs were optimal and competitive compared to everyone else. Also the time and cost to improve BPOs was still significant roughly a month per single level of research and the isk cost was relatively low. The main cost was time you spent not using your BPO. Now the costs are astronomically high in both isk and time to improve your BPO to the optimum level.

What happend with invention using decryptors?

This worked after deploying crius but stopped working aprox 27/7.

When installing invention job with decryptor (in this case Incognito Accelerant Run +1 ME +2 TE +10) the Industry UI gives the wrong info on produced BPC.

In all cases im talking about inventing an Ishtar (Heavy Assault Cruiser).

Invention without decryptor is said to produce a BPC with ME-2 and TE -4 (According to http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/eve-industry-all-you-want-to-know/).

This is slightly confusing as well since in my World ME-2 and TE -4 should mean u need -2*1% (2% MORE MATERIAL) and -4*2%(8% MORE TIME).

IN THIS CASE IT SEEMS TO MEAN ME 2 AND TE 2 wich produces a BPC that uses 2% less material and 4% less time AND THAT IS THE RESULT YOU GET WHEN YOU INVENT WITHOUT DECRYPTOR.

THERE SEEMS TO BE A SLIGHT CONFUSION BETWEEN THE ME/TE VALUE AND WHEN TALKING ABOUT THE % OF EFFECT IT GIVES.
THERE ALSO SEEMS TO BE A CONFUSION ABOUT WHEN THE VALUE SHOULD BE POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE.

AS FAR AS I UNDERSTAND THERE IS NEVER A NEGATIVE ME/TE VALUE on a BPO/BPC (a positive ME/TE is Always a reduction so using a "-" sign is only confusing)

My conclusion of the "terminology" is that when talking about Blueprint research it is ME and TE meaning the max value is ME 10 (10%) reduction in material and TE 10 (20%) reduction in time.

When you talk about decryptors IT IS NOT ME AND TE IT IS % (otherwise why give a decryptor TE +10 since you get 4 without decryptor add 10 and you get TE 14 and no Blueprint can have more than 10)



The right info using a decryptor (Icognito Accelerant) should on succesful invention be, Runs 2 ME 4 (4% reduction) and TE 7 (14% reduction).

This is the result I got until yesterday (27/7).

Then this happened....
When installingt tje job i got the right info "Outcome" ME 4% TE 14% and 2 runs BUT when i look at "job in progress" and check the outcome it shows ME 2% (ME 1) and TE 4% (TE 2) and 1 run.

In other Words it seems to disregard the decryptor.
What it will deliver I dont know yet....

A small suggestion:

Scrap the ME/TE value and change them to % meaning making the Max values for a BPO/BPC ME10% and TE 20% (why the conversion to %?) "should be simple".

Stop Writing +/- when it regards ME/TE (cant realy see the Point) and declare all values regarding ME/TE are positive and they are "amount of reduction".

Looking forvard to feedback.

Therein lies the problem there is not adaption. One day you have the same costs to build an expensive thing and the next day you are hopelessly behind. What is the answer to that question?
You lose in the market as in your costs now are more than the market rate for the item. So to keep building you would lose money.
So the logical answer is to get out of that business.
Follow that to the next step. Lots of people invested in Large ship building got screwed over massively and will likely 'quit the market'

Also the previous system was very logical. It was just really complicated. That was pretty much why I liked it. People didn't understand it very well so I could exploit that and make isk from them.
Now we are dumbing down EVE to the WOW player level.

Are people really arguing that ME 10 should not be better than ME 8?

Of course it should be. If ME 8 BPOs were offering the same result as ME 10 BPOs in the past, that is insanely stupid and it's a good thing they changed it.

Seems you guys are complaining that it will take time and $$$ investment to get the BPO to 10. That makes sense... why should it be received for free? Other players made the effort to get it to 10, you should too.

You say there is no possible adaptation. That's not true. Adapatation, here, is research, and it logically takes time, cost money and requires efforts. If you had your BPOs at ME8, then, you've got to deal with that by researching them to ME10. Once again, that is logical and that is what is called adaptation / research.

You just don't want to adapt, that's all and what all your complaints indicate. There is absolutely no good reason for ME10 to be given freely to you and your complaining comrades. Point.

As you said yourself, you've exploited (!) an illogical system long enough...

And what to think about, comparing EVE with WoW...
Come on...

NP problem at all for a forum alt who never has or never will research a thing.

I have to object you when it comes to which system is more logical.

The old system was perfectly logical because it immitated the principle of diminishing marginal returns which is the base of real life industrial production.
The new system reduces waste linear for a certain percentage and after -10% there is some magical barrier. Are you seriously going to tell me that the new system is more logical? Oo

Just because the new system is easier to understand, its not automatically more logical. Sometimes the reality is complicated and i like eve because it is not (well unfortunatly more and more becomes) easy.

It seems to be working, when you invent now, it only uses 1 run from the bpc. Regardless of whether it is successful or not you'll get the blueprint back with 1 run remaining.

Bug report it.

I mean unless you think flouncing on the forums will be more effective, I don't know?

I didn't say it is more logical because it is more easy to understand. Don't make me say what I didn't. I say it is more logical because it is, globally, mathematically more logical, yes, and because there is finally a difference between (and so a (really good, cf. "the magical barrier") reason to reach) the final levels, yes.

Knowing that, how could be the old system more logical? Asking again and again...

You can discuss about little details and balancing, I don't object that, but through a global view, you can't seriously say that the new system is not better than the old one.

The new ME system is more unrealistic and causes heavy problems with the rounding of needed part numbers (look at all small capitals)
Why is it unrealistic? Well imagine in real life you are building something. Now you are trying to reduce your resource consumption (aka improve ME). The first units of time and money you invest yield the highest return in terms of reducing the needed input. While investing more time and money the input saving will reduce and at some point come to a point where you wont get any improvement for you invested time and money.
Sounds familiar? Thats exactly how it worked in Eve before Cius and thats what Science calls diminishing marginal returns.

Now after crius the returns are constant for every ME level percentage wise(in fact they are increasing because of bad rounding). The diminishing returns have been replaced by massively increasing need of time and ISK and we have a magic limit where production suddenly is perfect. Where is the improvement?

So whats left that makes post Crius ME better?
Its more simple, and thats the only argument i would agree on. However as i mentioned earlier. Eve is allready simplified to much in my opinion.

* The client noticeably freezes when loading the various industry tabs on a 3.6Ghz 3630, GTX 580 4GB OC with 32GB of 1600 Mhz RAM. I have many thousand of BPCs for when I was doing invention, it seems loading them all makes the client cry.

* Agree with a need to remove the giant tool at the top when I just want to view my jobs.

* The dark grey on even darker grey for the in-use blueprints is neigh unreadable. There needs to be another way to show that a blueprint is unavailable beyond giving me eye strain.

* When selecting to stop a job, the button changes to 'Confirm' but there is no cancel button. You can change the button back by clicking on another blueprint, but there needs to be an equally prominent cancel button.

QFT

Large amounts of copies in various cans mixed in with originals in other cans are causing a severe decrease in client performance. Even when you have filtered down to the prints you need the act of selecting / dragging and dropping becomes very slow. I'm talking up to 10 seconds to register that a bp has been selected and display the options for the print.

I like the changes in terms of look, not feeling the functionality from a copy perspective. And I really don't like the idea of having to pay to copy blueprints in my own pos. I've yet to study the costs, where the ISK is going and how the scaling will affect me so correct me if I'm wrong but it's a bit of a kick in the balls.

I am no capital industrialist but i do some small / medscale industrial stuff.. and i sympathise with some capital bpo holders here...

one of the questions before crius was: "what happens to the BPO it its perfect now and below ME10" The answer from CCP (i believe it was CCP Greyscale) was: "in this case it will be perfect also when crius hits".

Now, after the release of crius we see several BPOs which are not perfect anymore..

In my case i have only to research a few weeks to get most of my BPOs perfect again.. (some exceptions of course with several months research needed)...

The Point is: CCP said.. all perfect BPOs before crius will be perfect after crius again... and this is simply not true.

Are people really arguing that ME 10 should not be better than ME 8?

Of course it should be. If ME 8 BPOs were offering the same result as ME 10 BPOs in the past, that is insanely stupid and it's a good thing they changed it.

Seems you guys are complaining that it will take time and $$$ investment to get the BPO to 10. That makes sense... why should it be received for free? Other players made the effort to get it to 10, you should too.

---

Noticed that the job cost installation increases apply to starbases too. I think this is rather illogical and further hurts the motivations to use a starbase. In my opinion it should be adjusted so starbases only require the base cost, and never increased based on system activity.

IMO, that's perfectly in-line with EVE's design philosophy.

You get the bulk of the advantage in a short amount of time, and optimization to "perfect" requires specialization/focus.

The high end industrialist (excepting those who already have ME10/TE20 BPOs) has to decide "do I spend my time researching this archon to ME10? Or is my money better spent on something else?"

A player having to decide that is what makes up industrial gameplay in EVE.

Would say that if I understand this new thing (Crius)... It will solve itself...

Having thousands of BPO's (vey few have), having thousands of BPC, common among people who invent BUT
Nowadays instead of making large ammounts of 1 run BPC you make 20,50,300 run BPC (for hulls) depending on size/Time since every invention only decrease the BPC with one copy.

In other Words NO USE FOR THOUSANDS OF BPC and like all folders (even on local pc) have a hierarchy and not to much in every folder, saves loading time and confusion.

rgds

Would love to be able to choose to pay for POS jobs with a personal wallet. Would solve a lot of extra steps of moving money around.

Was very surprised that you could only bid on teams using a personal wallet. Seems to be a disconnect.

Would say that if I understand this new thing (Crius)... It will solve itself...

Having thousands of BPO's (vey few have), having thousands of BPC, common among people who invent BUT
Nowadays instead of making large ammounts of 1 run BPC you make 20,50,300 run BPC (for hulls) depending on size/Time since every invention only decrease the BPC with one copy.

In other Words NO USE FOR THOUSANDS OF BPC and like all folders (even on local pc) have a hierarchy and not to much in every folder, saves loading time and confusion.

rgds

You missed it. I was optimal. Patch occurs and BAM!! I'm sub optimal and not by a little bit. a LOT bit(6-9 months and billion isk) behind to the point of not bothering to try to catch up. Also my research POS doesn't work anymore either so my best method to catch up also killed by the patch. Follow me yet?

Not only that but why are POS owners paying to use their own equipment anyway? I'm fueling and I also paid for the POS.. why should I have to grant everyone wallet access in order just to use corp owned equipment.

Is CCP going to be looking in to this issue?

Drone Avionics skill guys. Update please.

IMO, that's perfectly in-line with EVE's design philosophy.

You get the bulk of the advantage in a short amount of time, and optimization to "perfect" requires specialization/focus.

The high end industrialist (excepting those who already have ME10/TE20 BPOs) has to decide "do I spend my time researching this archon to ME10? Or is my money better spent on something else?"

A player having to decide that is what makes up industrial gameplay in EVE.

Err. No. That's is wrong, post Crius the bulk of the benefit is to get them to 'perfect' below that there are a lot of blueprints that are just trash. To get the bulk of the benefit you have to stick them in research for a couple of years and pay at a cost of billions of isk and a wasted slot .

'A player having to decide' - the decisions were made by CCP not the players. Who knows during two years while the blueprint was in research CCP may have change the rules again which is a very real possibility!