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Mjnari
Empyreum
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Posted - 2006.07.26 11:35:00 -
[241]
Hmm, thought about it some during the night:
An attempt at pre-factional warfare balancing?
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Omega Bloodstone
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Posted - 2006.07.26 11:41:00 -
[242]
Okay, so its cool that a DEV popped in the tier 3 Caldari BS discussion and advised "rails". This means that half the game(being that half the game is Caldari by race) know what to train. I wish I had that Luxurie. Can we get an idea on the Minnie one DEVS???
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.26 11:43:00 -
[243]
Originally by: Omega Bloodstone Okay, so its cool that a DEV popped in the tier 3 Caldari BS discussion and advised "rails". This means that half the game(being that half the game is Caldari by race) know what to train. I wish I had that Luxurie. Can we get an idea on the Minnie one DEVS???
It will have 8 turrets. Of course its going to be projectiles. Did you read the blog in General Discussions?
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
RoMUF
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Posted - 2006.07.26 11:53:00 -
[244]
Why didn't minmatar get an EW boat? Where's my target painter bunus HUH?
6 to 7 med slots allows plenty of room for target painters!
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Wrayeth
PAX Interstellar Services Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.07.26 12:26:00 -
[245]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
I win missiles cant spam and tackle at the same time you know. Bah, I leave this whinning. You all are looking for solopwnmobiles.
Um...Jenny, not to burst your bubble or anything, but please look at the following raven setup and tell me it doesn't have all the bases covered:
6 siege II 2 medium ghoul, E50, or diminishing nos
1 XL C5L booster 1 faint 20km scrambler 1 heavy electrochemical cap injector 1 shield boost amp 2 invulnerability field II
3 ballistic control II 1 RCU II 1 coprocessor II
3 heavy web drones
You'll note that is has full tackling capability and can tank, too. The difference with the maelstrom is that it's a turret boat and will need to approach targets, so it needs an extra slot for a MWD.
Oh, and yes - this setup works quite well in PvP. I've been using it since just after Cold War and the missile changes, with a couple refinements ultimately leading up to what I posted above.
Frankly, if they removed a low from the raven and added a mid, I'd be up in arms - I'd have to lose a ballistic control for no real gain! -Wrayeth
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
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Wrayeth
PAX Interstellar Services Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.07.26 12:36:00 -
[246]
In regards to the slow speed of the maelstrom, I'm pretty sure Tux is defining "slow" as "the same speed as the other races' battleships - 143m/s base with nav 5". Despite that "slow" speed, blasterthrons seem to do quite well, so I don't expect it to be too much of an issue.
However....
What will be an issue, as someone else already mentioned, is ammo consumption of 8 large autocannons with a rate of fire bonus. Even on the tempest it's hard to carry enough ammo for sustained operations far from home as you burn through it at an alarming rate, at the same time needing most of your cargo space for cap booster charges.
I see two solutions to the ammo issue. The first is just to give the maelstrom an unusually large cargo hold - something on the order of 700-750m3. The second would require a rework of autocannons to be slower firing but more heavily damaging. Frankly, I could care less which is implemented, as long as one of the two is. -Wrayeth
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
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Turiel Demon
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.26 12:38:00 -
[247]
Guys, I'm sorry but we realy shouldn't hope for more than 5 mids. If it has more than 5 it might actualy be able to make use of its bonus, and then it's gonna infringe on the Raven's territory.
Besides from that, this ship is already pre-gimped. It's too slow to use AC's, and anyway it can't possibly have the cargo hold for 8 turrets with a ROF bonus, plus cap boosters which it will almost certainly need to run an active tank with the new and improved longer-lasting combat.
No way is it going to have the PG to fit 8 1400mm II's without gridmods, and it's going to have too limited CPU to fit a 3/4 mod shieldtank. Added to that that it will have either an abysmal cap amount, or severely slow recharge (please be recharge), so it won't actualy be able to run a shield booster for more than 20-30 secconds anyway.
If it has any of those things, it's going to be unballanced in the eyes of the other races, at least and especialy the caldari, yet it needs all of them (7 mids, high PG, high CPU, largish cargo hold, decent cap) to be a viable ship that outperforms the tempest or typhoon at ANYTHING. ----
nothing to see here, move along nicely now, is that a pink dread out there. aaww you just missed it -eris It's not an Eidolon with 5 Basic Miner's on it, that's for certain.(FF04) ~kieron No love for me? :'( - Wrangler If you can't beat Eris, join her, hmmm that sounded so much better in my head - Cortes Cuddles Eeyore. He's soooo cute and doesn't play EVE. perfect -eris Eve-online Forum mods arn't Pokemon, you don't need to collect them all - Ductoris Here's my autograph - now do I get some groupie lub? Jacques' Don't be greedy :P -Capsicum ORLY - O |
SengH
Black Omega Security E.R.A
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Posted - 2006.07.26 12:43:00 -
[248]
so i guess CCP finally figured it out
"old minnie" = ARMOR tank "new minnie" = SHIELD tank (are we supposed to shield tank the naggy? most ppl ive seen armor tank it tho) "next gen minnie" = HULL tank????
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.07.26 12:43:00 -
[249]
/put on the AC whine cap
i really hope in a rework to ACs to make them more similar to arties...
so something like 7x dmg (maybe even more) on 800mm t2 and according speed to keep the DPS similar as it is now.
it will not be a big problem as in close range is not easy to hit orbiting cruiser or frigs (so no probs of instapops)
it will help big time with PvE
and will make them a bit more balanced compared to blasters that have both more alpha and dps, similar traking and with t2 ammo range is not a big issue.
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Severa Crest
Railgun Voodoo II
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Posted - 2006.07.26 12:47:00 -
[250]
Edited by: Severa Crest on 26/07/2006 12:48:10
Originally by: Wrayeth In regards to the slow speed of the maelstrom, I'm pretty sure Tux is defining "slow" as "the same speed as the other races' battleships - 143m/s base with nav 5". Despite that "slow" speed, blasterthrons seem to do quite well, so I don't expect it to be too much of an issue.
The rupture is described as slow and heavy for a minmatar ship, but it is still faster than any other race cruiser. The Mael however will be heavier than a tempest, therefore heavier than a blasterthron, and hence slower with a MWD. The whole point of having speed and the the versatility of autos was to get close to the amarrians to gimp their tracking, outrange the Gallente blasters etc etc. For this reason we had crappy dps. But now we have crappy dps and we are slower and less agile.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.26 12:48:00 -
[251]
Originally by: Wrayeth In regards to the slow speed of the maelstrom, I'm pretty sure Tux is defining "slow" as "the same speed as the other races' battleships - 143m/s base with nav 5". Despite that "slow" speed, blasterthrons seem to do quite well, so I don't expect it to be too much of an issue.
However....
What will be an issue, as someone else already mentioned, is ammo consumption of 8 large autocannons with a rate of fire bonus. Even on the tempest it's hard to carry enough ammo for sustained operations far from home as you burn through it at an alarming rate, at the same time needing most of your cargo space for cap booster charges.
I see two solutions to the ammo issue. The first is just to give the maelstrom an unusually large cargo hold - something on the order of 700-750m3. The second would require a rework of autocannons to be slower firing but more heavily damaging. Frankly, I could care less which is implemented, as long as one of the two is.
I fully agree. The rate at which autocannons eat ammo is almost silly. You can go out there with a full hold and come back empty an hour later.
Now that we have a 8 turret ship, something needs to be done about the crazy ammo consumption. I love the fast rate of fire, and increasing the cargo hold would only give benefits to this specific ship.
So it would be better to just make autocannon ammo take up half as much space in the cargo.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Wrayeth
PAX Interstellar Services Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.07.26 12:48:00 -
[252]
Edited by: Wrayeth on 26/07/2006 12:49:05
Originally by: Turiel Demon Guys, I'm sorry but we realy shouldn't hope for more than 5 mids. If it has more than 5 it might actualy be able to make use of its bonus, and then it's gonna infringe on the Raven's territory.
Actually, it won't. The raven does not hold the role of the ultimate shield tanker - in fact, it gets absolutely no bonus to shield tanking. It just has a slot and hitpoint layout that one could say massively favors shield tanking.
The rokh is going to have shield resistance bonuses. The relationship between the rokh and the maelstrom will be like the Ferox and the Cyclone.
Quote: Besides from that, this ship is already pre-gimped. It's too slow to use AC's, and anyway it can't possibly have the cargo hold for 8 turrets with a ROF bonus, plus cap boosters which it will almost certainly need to run an active tank with the new and improved longer-lasting combat.
Well, I don't think the maelstrom is going to be any slower than the other races' battleships. As for the cargo hold issue, you may have a point, but we don't yet know how much space it will have.
In regards to being intended as an artillery boat, I sincerely hope not. The blasterthron already outclasses the AC tempest quite handily, and now the hyperion will do the same, even moreso. At least one could try to maintain range against a blasterthron (usually unsuccessfully if the blasterthron pilot knew what he was doing), but that won't be possible against the hyperion - it will be faster and more cap efficient than the blasterthron.
I fear that the AC tempest will be completely outmoded once the hyperion enters the game. That being the case, my only hope for my beloved autocannons will devolve to the maelstrom, as the typhoon can't fill the role properly due to lack of grid and CPU.
-Wrayeth
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
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Wrayeth
PAX Interstellar Services Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.07.26 12:50:00 -
[253]
Originally by: Jim McGregor So it would be better to just make autocannon ammo take up half as much space in the cargo.
Better idea than either of mine. -Wrayeth
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
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Severa Crest
Railgun Voodoo II
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Posted - 2006.07.26 12:50:00 -
[254]
Originally by: Wrayeth Edited by: Wrayeth on 26/07/2006 12:49:05
Originally by: Turiel Demon Guys, I'm sorry but we realy shouldn't hope for more than 5 mids. If it has more than 5 it might actualy be able to make use of its bonus, and then it's gonna infringe on the Raven's territory.
Actually, it won't. The raven does not hold the role of the ultimate shield tanker - in fact, it gets absolutely no bonus to shield tanking. It just has a slot and hitpoint layout that one could say massively favors shield tanking.
The rokh is going to have shield resistance bonuses. The relationship between the rokh and the maelstrom will be like the Ferox and the Cyclone.
Quote: Besides from that, this ship is already pre-gimped. It's too slow to use AC's, and anyway it can't possibly have the cargo hold for 8 turrets with a ROF bonus, plus cap boosters which it will almost certainly need to run an active tank with the new and improved longer-lasting combat.
Well, I don't think the maelstrom is going to be any slower than the other races' battleships. As for the cargo hold issue, you may have a point, but we don't yet know how much space it will have.
In regards to being intended as an artillery boat, I sincerely hope not. The blasterthron already outclasses the AC tempest quite handily, and now the hyperion will do the same, even moreso. At least one could try to maintain range against a blasterthron (usually unsuccessfully if the blasterthron pilot knew what he was doing), but that won't be possible against the hyperion - it will be faster and more cap efficient than the blasterthron.
I fear that the AC tempest will be completely outmoded once the hyperion enters the game. That being the case, my only hope for my beloved autocannons will devolve to the maelstrom, as the typhoon can't fill the role properly due to lack of grid and CPU.
This balance between Minnie and Gallente, autos and blasters is what worries me most about these new ships.
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Blind Man
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.26 12:51:00 -
[255]
rofl, you people complaining seriously need to fly a sleipnir and then say how much a shield boost bonus sucks.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.26 12:53:00 -
[256]
Originally by: Severa Crest
This balance between Minnie and Gallente, autos and blasters is what worries me most about these new ships.
Me too. Specially with the speed nerf on hail and also no way to keep out of range for the blaster boats, im a bit worried. At least this ship can fit a really good tank... hopefully people will good skills will test these things on the test server before released.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Severa Crest
Railgun Voodoo II
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Posted - 2006.07.26 12:58:00 -
[257]
Originally by: Blind Man rofl, you people complaining seriously need to fly a sleipnir and then say how much a shield boost bonus sucks.
No problem with shield tanking.
Just imagine command ships are much more common than they are now, then make the Astarte lighter and faster than the Sleipnir then you have my problem.
I guess its not only an issue with the Mael though, it's the Hyperion too.
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Melkor Bloodaxe
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.26 12:58:00 -
[258]
Edited by: Melkor Bloodaxe on 26/07/2006 13:03:51
Originally by: Blind Man rofl, you people complaining seriously need to fly a sleipnir and then say how much a shield boost bonus sucks.
don't forget Sleipnir has shield resistances of 62EM/60Exp/40Kin/50Therm. Which makes a huge difference.
And when the hell are they gonna fix the forum? can't barely edit my own post... ____ "Since when is justified killing more fun than random killing?" -HippoKing-
TEAM MINMATAR - In Rust We Trust - |
Wilfan Ret'nub
Omega Corp
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Posted - 2006.07.26 12:59:00 -
[259]
Originally by: Winter Star I think the best thing about this ship is how versatile the name seems to be - in this thread alone we've had:
Malestorm
That's the MGRL faction ship.
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SengH
Black Omega Security E.R.A
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Posted - 2006.07.26 13:01:00 -
[260]
Edited by: SengH on 26/07/2006 13:03:37
Originally by: Melkor Bloodaxe
Originally by: Blind Man rofl, you people complaining seriously need to fly a sleipnir and then say how much a shield boost bonus sucks.
don't forget Sleipnir has shield resistances of 62EM/62Exp/40Kin/50Therm. Which makes a huge difference
Slepnir also has 1 free slot for nos. For the mael, your gonna last as long as you cap charges (hope youve got enough) along with alot of ammo. Or if its the IWIN domi your pretty ******.
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Wrayeth
PAX Interstellar Services Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.07.26 13:03:00 -
[261]
Originally by: Wilfan Ret'nub
Originally by: Winter Star I think the best thing about this ship is how versatile the name seems to be - in this thread alone we've had:
Malestorm
That's the MGRL faction ship.
LMFAO -Wrayeth
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
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Sumayyah
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.26 13:15:00 -
[262]
If the new BS gets 7 mids like you people want this BS could be the New PvE ship for those that have good gunnary skill \o/ Plus that would make it a pretty ubber solo ship imo. I think it would be great to give us 7 mids but come one we are minmatar and CCP hates us
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.26 13:16:00 -
[263]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/07/2006 13:18:41
Originally by: Sumayyah If the new BS gets 7 mids like you people want this BS could be the New PvE ship for those that have good gunnary skill \o/ Plus that would make it a pretty ubber solo ship imo. I think it would be great to give us 7 mids but come one we are minmatar and CCP hates us
One med slot will disappear with MWD, because unlike Raven, we cant just sit still and hit anything from 0-150km with no tracking.
Besides, Caldari now has a uber sniper which might be even better than Raven for mission sniping.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
SengH
Black Omega Security E.R.A
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Posted - 2006.07.26 13:17:00 -
[264]
Originally by: Sumayyah If the new BS gets 7 mids like you people want this BS could be the New PvE ship for those that have good gunnary skill \o/ Plus that would make it a pretty ubber solo ship imo. I think it would be great to give us 7 mids but come one we are minmatar and CCP hates us
I think Hammer is the only pro minnie on the CCP dev team lol. Esp after he gave all artys a 25% tracking boost a while back (VERY long long time ago).
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Turiel Demon
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.26 13:17:00 -
[265]
Originally by: Wrayeth Edited by: Wrayeth on 26/07/2006 12:49:05
Originally by: Turiel Demon Guys, I'm sorry but we realy shouldn't hope for more than 5 mids. If it has more than 5 it might actualy be able to make use of its bonus, and then it's gonna infringe on the Raven's territory.
Actually, it won't. The raven does not hold the role of the ultimate shield tanker - in fact, it gets absolutely no bonus to shield tanking. It just has a slot and hitpoint layout that one could say massively favors shield tanking.
The rokh is going to have shield resistance bonuses. The relationship between the rokh and the maelstrom will be like the Ferox and the Cyclone.
Actualy that was meant as a bit of humour linked to the 'raven/caldari > everything' thing we've got going on, only the rest was serious
Originally by: Wrayeth
Quote: Besides from that, this ship is already pre-gimped. It's too slow to use AC's, and anyway it can't possibly have the cargo hold for 8 turrets with a ROF bonus, plus cap boosters which it will almost certainly need to run an active tank with the new and improved longer-lasting combat.
Well, I don't think the maelstrom is going to be any slower than the other races' battleships. As for the cargo hold issue, you may have a point, but we don't yet know how much space it will have.
In regards to being intended as an artillery boat, I sincerely hope not. The blasterthron already outclasses the AC tempest quite handily, and now the hyperion will do the same, even moreso. At least one could try to maintain range against a blasterthron (usually unsuccessfully if the blasterthron pilot knew what he was doing), but that won't be possible against the hyperion - it will be faster and more cap efficient than the blasterthron.
I fear that the AC tempest will be completely outmoded once the hyperion enters the game. That being the case, my only hope for my beloved autocannons will devolve to the maelstrom, as the typhoon can't fill the role properly due to lack of grid and CPU.
I realy don't think the Mael will have the slightest chance as an AC boat. It'll easily fit it gridwise yeah, but tha ammo carrying issue will just be too gimping because of it's need for cap injector.
I don't think we can seriously consider a passive cap recharge option as it will need MWD.
We can already say with certainty that an AC temp will not be able to take on a Hyperion without ECM, which is hopefully going to be utterly destroyed by the upcoming reballancing...
So how is a ship which will be slowER and less maneuverable, have maybe equal damage but effectively 2 less highslots, have the ammo efficiency of a bottomless pit, and be utterly cap reliant for an active tank supposed to hold up?
And that's assuming it has the midslots and CPU for a decent tank, which STILL won't last long as it's going to be relying on charges.
Even then what damage output are we looking at? maybe 700 with hail (meaning you stand still with 8 turrets)? Yeah, looks great ----
nothing to see here, move along nicely now, is that a pink dread out there. aaww you just missed it -eris It's not an Eidolon with 5 Basic Miner's on it, that's for certain.(FF04) ~kieron No love for me? :'( - Wrangler If you can't beat Eris, join her, hmmm that sounded so much better in my head - Cortes Cuddles Eeyore. He's soooo cute and doesn't play EVE. perfect -eris Eve-online Forum mods arn't Pokemon, you don't need to collect them all - Ductoris Here's my autograph - now do I get some groupie lub? Jacques' Don't be greedy :P -Capsicum ORLY - O |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.26 13:20:00 -
[266]
Originally by: SengH
Originally by: Sumayyah If the new BS gets 7 mids like you people want this BS could be the New PvE ship for those that have good gunnary skill \o/ Plus that would make it a pretty ubber solo ship imo. I think it would be great to give us 7 mids but come one we are minmatar and CCP hates us
I think Hammer is the only pro minnie on the CCP dev team lol. Esp after he gave all artys a 25% tracking boost a while back (VERY long long time ago).
Well, i personally think most of them are gallente.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.26 13:22:00 -
[267]
Originally by: Turiel Demon
Even then what damage output are we looking at? maybe 700 with hail (meaning you stand still with 8 turrets)? Yeah, looks great
Yeah, i think the speed penalty should be removed on this ammo. It doesnt make any sense that we have a ammo that is good but we cant really use it unless we want to sit still and tank. Most minnie ships arent good at tanking, except this one. But i doubt it will be able to sit close to a blastership without dying in the end, even with these bonuses.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Wrayeth
PAX Interstellar Services Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.07.26 13:24:00 -
[268]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Yeah, i think the speed penalty should be removed on this ammo. It doesnt make any sense that we have a ammo that is good but we cant really use it unless we want to sit still and tank. Most minnie ships arent good at tanking, except this one. But i doubt it will be able to sit close to a blastership without dying in the end, even with these bonuses.
That's about what I expect, as well, though one can always hope. Blasters, autocannons, and the ships that use them need a balance pass on the battleship level big time. -Wrayeth
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.07.26 13:30:00 -
[269]
Originally by: Turiel Demon I realy don't think the Mael will have the slightest chance as an AC boat. It'll easily fit it gridwise yeah, but tha ammo carrying issue will just be too gimping because of it's need for cap injector.
I don't think we can seriously consider a passive cap recharge option as it will need MWD.
We can already say with certainty that an AC temp will not be able to take on a Hyperion without ECM, which is hopefully going to be utterly destroyed by the upcoming reballancing...
So how is a ship which will be slowER and less maneuverable, have maybe equal damage but effectively 2 less highslots, have the ammo efficiency of a bottomless pit, and be utterly cap reliant for an active tank supposed to hold up?
And that's assuming it has the midslots and CPU for a decent tank, which STILL won't last long as it's going to be relying on charges.
Even then what damage output are we looking at? maybe 700 with hail (meaning you stand still with 8 turrets)? Yeah, looks great
i mostly agree, this ship seem to be quite vulnerable to nos and dps are not that great... it seem more suited as an arty ship even if in fleet its bonus becomes a bit useless :/
for close range i fear it will become another sort of nos ship (depends by drone bay) or how about a big tanked tackler?
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booh
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Posted - 2006.07.26 13:32:00 -
[270]
Blah. Expected. Atleast it doesnt't have a smartbomb bonus.
Since it has no gun bonuses, you can fit whatever you want. Nanos on low, big ass tank and MWD on med, 720s on highs... + snake implants... roaming with frigs 4tw
Oh well atleast i hope it will have 7 meds. And the argument with raven having less doesn't cound - minmatar are weird.
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