Originally by: Sarmaul

---

8/7/4 please with oodles of CPU and powergrid.

Ta.

---

Originally by: Eximius Josari

---

8/7/5 with not oddles of grid, I don't think we need another artillary boat.

---

Originally by: Cudeiro

---

you forgot "and give all people with minmatar bs 5 a full set of cristals implants thx"

---

Originally by: Amy Wang

---

8/7/5 would be only fair to compensate a little for having the most rubbish bonuses of all tier3 bs....

---

Originally by: M00dy

---

It'll the ship to fly in the next Alliance Tournament.

Built in low-grade Crystal set.

---

Originally by: M00dy

---

It'll the ship to fly in the next Alliance Tournament.

Built in low-grade Crystal set.

---

KILROCK'S GIRLY SIDE / WTS PILGRIM + CURSE + T2 DRONES PACKS

Originally by: M00dy

---

It will have more Armor hp than Shield hp.

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Maelstrom

Bonuses:

* 5% large projectile weapon rate of fire per level
* 7.5% shield boost amount per level


I never did like the Cyclone, but hopefully this boat will be more useful. 8 projectiles is definently for the win.

---

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

---

More like 8/6/5. Slot layout looks like Raven.

---

Originally by: Shamis Orzoz

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Maelstrom

Bonuses:

* 5% large projectile weapon rate of fire per level
* 7.5% shield boost amount per level


I never did like the Cyclone, but hopefully this boat will be more useful. 8 projectiles is definently for the win.

---

Where are these stats coming from? Did I miss a big sticky or something?

---

Originally by: Kael D'mende

---

Edited by: Kael D''mende on 25/07/2006 19:29:53
Wondering how accurate this info is ?

http://evegames.hostingbig.com/eve/data/Ships/Battleships/Tier3@~32;Minmtar.xml


edit: linky broke the link.. so copy paste etc..

---

Originally by: Kael D'mende

---

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

---

More like 8/6/5. Slot layout looks like Raven.

---

I sure hope not :O/ if it is inline with the speculations on the other ships total slot layout, it should have 20 slots total..

my hope is 8/7/4-5 ;O)

---

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

---

Made a boo boo. Should have typed 8/6/6. A bit strange for Minmatar to have more mids than Raven, isnt it?

---

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

---

Originally by: Kael D'mende

---

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

---

More like 8/6/5. Slot layout looks like Raven.

---

I sure hope not :O/ if it is inline with the speculations on the other ships total slot layout, it should have 20 slots total..

my hope is 8/7/4-5 ;O)

---

Made a boo boo. Should have typed 8/6/6. A bit strange for Minmatar to have more mids than Raven, isnt it?

---

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

---

Originally by: Kael D'mende

---

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

---

More like 8/6/5. Slot layout looks like Raven.

---

I sure hope not :O/ if it is inline with the speculations on the other ships total slot layout, it should have 20 slots total..

my hope is 8/7/4-5 ;O)

---

Made a boo boo. Should have typed 8/6/6. A bit strange for Minmatar to have more mids than Raven, isnt it?

---

Originally by: M00dy

---

Imagine the whinage.
8/6/6 would be so... bleh.

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Originally by: M00dy

---

Imagine the whinage.
8/6/6 would be so... bleh.

---

I want 7 medium slots. It would be so much fun to no longer fear Ravens.

DIE RAVENS DIE!

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Originally by: M00dy

---

Imagine the whinage.
8/6/6 would be so... bleh.

---

I want 7 medium slots. It would be so much fun to no longer fear Ravens.

DIE RAVENS DIE!

---

Originally by: Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol

---

Edited by: Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol on 25/07/2006 20:02:18
Edited by: Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol on 25/07/2006 20:01:33
pretty sure its going to be 6/6 while caldari is 7/5 and galante 5/7 :P

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Originally by: M00dy

---

Imagine the whinage.
8/6/6 would be so... bleh.

---

I want 7 medium slots. It would be so much fun to no longer fear Ravens.

DIE RAVENS DIE!

---

Originally by: Crange

---

So temp for fleet mael for small gangs and phoon fer solo?

---

Originally by: Nafri

---

Originally by: Crange

---

So temp for fleet mael for small gangs and phoon fer solo?

---

mealstrom is slow,

so it will be:

Tempest for Fleets
Typhoon for ganks
Meal for Carebearing

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

---

Made a boo boo. Should have typed 8/6/6. A bit strange for Minmatar to have more mids than Raven, isnt it?

---

Everything goes out the window with these new boats. Gallente gets a fast, agile ship which is kind of why i like minmatar to begin with. And minmatar gets a shield boosting monster which is really a caldari thing, yeah.

---

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

---

Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 25/07/2006 20:07:22

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Originally by: M00dy

---

Imagine the whinage.
8/6/6 would be so... bleh.

---

I want 7 medium slots. It would be so much fun to no longer fear Ravens.

DIE RAVENS DIE!

---

Nope. You think it is easy to shield tank with 6 slots, huh? At least you know how hard the Raven is tanking with 6 slots.

/me tries hard to imagine something as huge as a BS that can MWD and orbit at 20km shooting blasters.

---

Originally by: steveid

---

With the bonus' and slot layouts of this ship you can basically tank sentry guns in low sec solo forever. I find that very worrying personally. Add onto that the possibility of ecm and you've got yourself a kick ass solo pwnmobile. Looks to me horribly horribly overpowered. I'm glad for minnie as they suck, but tbh they need better low end ships as the bs's aren't to bad at all.

---

Originally by: dabster

---

Edited by: dabster on 25/07/2006 20:20:08
more like mining :-P


edit; omg i gotta learn to stay docked while i whorumfore

---

Originally by: Nafri

---

Tempest for Fleets
Typhoon for ganks
Meal for Carebearing

---

Originally by: Swiftness

---

It better have a F***ing huge cargo hold

---

Originally by: Kael D'mende

---

Edited by: Kael D''mende on 25/07/2006 19:29:53
Wondering how accurate this info is ?

http://evegames.hostingbig.com/eve/data/Ships/Battleships/Tier3@~32;Minmtar.xml

---

Originally by: Zyrtan Keb'Lektar

---

at least caldari now finaly got a mining bs

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

I gotta say it:

The maelstrom lets me down in every way. I wanted a big stabber with a rack of AC's and caution being thrown to the wind.

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

We have ended up with the bastard child of the raven and the cyclone.

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

Theres no specific reason to use it with arty over the tempest

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

and assuming its as slow as it probably will be, its not worth using with AC over the tempest either.

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

If it has 7 meds it will tank pretty well, but thats never been the minmatar strength.

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

If it has 6 meds and 6 lows, then we get an ECM + resonable armor tank boat.

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

Neither of that are anything like the minmatar i know and love.

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

I gotta say it:

The maelstrom lets me down in every way. I wanted a big stabber with a rack of AC's and caution being thrown to the wind.

We have ended up with the bastard child of the raven and the cyclone. Theres no specific reason to use it with arty over the tempest, and assuming its as slow as it probably will be, its not worth using with AC over the tempest either.

If it has 7 meds it will tank pretty well, but thats never been the minmatar strength.
If it has 6 meds and 6 lows, then we get an ECM + resonable armor tank boat.

Neither of that are anything like the minmatar i know and love.

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

Man if we were getting the hyperions bonuses it would causes thousands of pairs of minmatar panties to moisten.

---

Originally by: kessah

---

Totally agree with Valea Silpha on this one!

5% velocity bonus and 5% to Large proj dmg or rof per lvl

Shield bonus on this is totally bogus! all the other races imho are right on the money, why is it matari always gets shafted. Now ive matari spec myself im really starting to feel for all those times i flicked past the matari whines.

PLEASE CCP CHANGE THE SHIELD BOOST BONUS!

---

Originally by: kessah

---

Sarmaul seriously how can u welcome a Shield boost bonus, matari are ment to be versatile especially at the Battleship lvl.

Its so contricting, i fly the cyclone and i still armour tank it and i fly the raven and armour tank it, But like the cyclone u might aswell use a ferox imho and with the Maelstrom having a wasted bonus *imho* as if i used it i use it as a cyclone which sucks.

---

Originally by: Sarmaul

---

Originally by: kessah

---

Sarmaul seriously how can u welcome a Shield boost bonus, matari are ment to be versatile especially at the Battleship lvl.

Its so contricting, i fly the cyclone and i still armour tank it and i fly the raven and armour tank it, But like the cyclone u might aswell use a ferox imho and with the Maelstrom having a wasted bonus *imho* as if i used it i use it as a cyclone which sucks.

---

Nobody is forcing you to shield tank it.

TBH, I am absolutely loving the shield boost bonus but only if it gets 7 mids, otherwise it will end up being fitted like a tempest with another multispec.

---

Originally by: Sarmaul

---

Originally by: kessah

---

Sarmaul seriously how can u welcome a Shield boost bonus, matari are ment to be versatile especially at the Battleship lvl.

Its so contricting, i fly the cyclone and i still armour tank it and i fly the raven and armour tank it, But like the cyclone u might aswell use a ferox imho and with the Maelstrom having a wasted bonus *imho* as if i used it i use it as a cyclone which sucks.

---

Nobody is forcing you to shield tank it.

TBH, I am absolutely loving the shield boost bonus but only if it gets 7 mids, otherwise it will end up being fitted like a tempest with another multispec.

---

Originally by: Sarmaul

---

TBH, I am absolutely loving the shield boost bonus but only if it gets 7 mids

---

Originally by: Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol

---

im gonna be honest with you not sure why anyone would fly a Tempest over a Melstrom. Same DPS better tanking one more slot :\

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

Plus if its slow, it breaks minni design philosophy.

---

Originally by: Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol

---

im gonna be honest with you not sure why anyone would fly a Tempest over a Melstrom. Same DPS, better tanking, one more slot :\

---

Originally by: babylonstew

---

so all these people whining the raven can tank and gank with 6/5 slots is actually over powered, but a min ship with say 6/5 and a built in shield boost amp, so basically 7/5 for example, isnt up to scratch tanking wise?, what have i missed?
either ravens tank/gank isnt actually over powered at all, or your after a super tank with 8 turrets?

---

Originally by: Sarmaul

---

The complaint is that it can tank and gank and never miss.

---

Originally by: babylonstew

---

Originally by: Sarmaul

---

The complaint is that it can tank and gank and never miss.

---

ok, thats a fair point, but even with 6 meds, the new min bs will in fact out tank said raven wont it?
so you will in fact have for example, an extra invul field 30% more resists, or an extra boost amp, ungodly boost ammounts, or anything you like really, i just dont see its that bad if it 'only' has 6 meds, i really think 7 would make it slightly over powered in the tanking department.
personal opinion not flame ^^^

---

Originally by: Matsuo Masato

---

can someone caluclate what the stats one the best faction x-large booster with one boost amp and max skills?

---

Originally by: babylonstew

---

Originally by: Sarmaul

---

The complaint is that it can tank and gank and never miss.

---

ok, thats a fair point, but even with 6 meds, the new min bs will in fact out tank said raven wont it?
so you will in fact have for example, an extra invul field 30% more resists, or an extra boost amp, ungodly boost ammounts, or anything you like really, i just dont see its that bad if it 'only' has 6 meds, i really think 7 would make it slightly over powered in the tanking department.
personal opinion not flame ^^^

---

Originally by: Sarmaul

---

It's supposed to be ironic - the minmatar use shield technology when their racial enemy do mostly EM damage, while Amarr use armour technology when their racial enemy do mostly explosive damage :)

---

Originally by: Severa Crest

---

Any other minnie pilots worried about the Hyperion?

---

Originally by: Sarmaul

---

Originally by: Severa Crest

---

Any other minnie pilots worried about the Hyperion?

---

I'm only worried if it gets into range or lands 0.0km away from me, as I should be.

---

KILROCK'S GIRLY SIDE / WTS PILGRIM + CURSE + T2 DRONES PACKS

Originally by: Sarmaul

---

Originally by: Severa Crest

---

Any other minnie pilots worried about the Hyperion?

---

I'm only worried if it gets into range or lands 0.0km away from me, as I should be.

---

Originally by: Severa Crest

---

slow minnie ships 4TL, I hope this heap gets changed.

PS - any other minnie pilots worried about the Hyperion?

---

Quote:

---

2028.148 hp every 4 seconds with a full set of top Crystals, and the currently mythical X-Type Gist XL Booster and Gist Boost Amp.

2568.397 hp every 4 seconds with Pith X-Type XL Booster and Pith X-Type Amp.

You can run the numbers for boost calcs on a Cyclone, same boost bonus.

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 25/07/2006 23:11:35

Quote:

---

2028.148 hp every 4 seconds with a full set of top Crystals, and the currently mythical X-Type Gist XL Booster and Gist Boost Amp.

2568.397 hp every 4 seconds with Pith X-Type XL Booster and Pith X-Type Amp.

You can run the numbers for boost calcs on a Cyclone, same boost bonus.

---

Pointless numbers really. How many people will have a full set of crystals...and even if they did, to take that into pvp... would require someone mad. Im not sure what the cost of a complete crystal set is, but isnt it like 3 billion or something?

Isnt a gist b-type shield booster like 584 hp/4 seconds? With minmatar bs at level 5, that would make it 803 hp every 4s with no amp. With a 30% standard amp, it becomes 1043 hp every 4s. And thats with a gist booster that cost 400 million isk.

Im not sure if my math is completely right, but i think it ends up at like 1000 hp per 4 seconds... the 2500 hp for 4 seconds is for the very rich. Thats unbeatable without nossing.

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

Just one thing about the people complaining about this BS being a shieldtanker and how it is removing flexibility:

Look at the minnie frigates and cruisers. Some are more suited to shieldtanks, some more suited to armortanks. Not with BSs, though. The Typhoon is an armortank. The Tempest can do both (although is usually used as armortank). From that viewpoint it's only logical, especially considering that flexibility is one of the strong points of minnie ships, that the tier 3 will be an shieldtank.
Being able to choose between an armortanking BS, a hybrid and a shieldtanking BS seems to me way more flexible than being able to choose between 2 armortanking BS and a hybrid.

---

Originally by: Sarmaul

---

With a Cap Booster it's pretty much unbeatable until you run out of charges :P

---

Originally by: Nafri

---

Honestly, who will fit an active tank on a battleship?

---

Originally by: Nafri

---

you fit an active tank on a vagabound?

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

...Next against the abaddon... which is a choice between uber tank or uber gank. Im damned if the bloody ammar have a more versatile ship than we do.

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

Originally by: Nafri

---

you fit an active tank on a vagabound?

---

And since when is a shieldtank automatically an active one?

On the Maelstrom it will be, mind you, but so what? Cyclones work just splendidly with an active tank.

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

Originally by: Nafri

---

you fit an active tank on a vagabound?

---

And since when is a shieldtank automatically an active one?

On the Maelstrom it will be, mind you, but so what? Cyclones work just splendidly with an active tank.

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

Originally by: Nafri

---

you fit an active tank on a vagabound?

---

And since when is a shieldtank automatically an active one?

On the Maelstrom it will be, mind you, but so what? Cyclones work just splendidly with an active tank.

---

I think 'splendidly' is a bit of a stretch. They work pretty well, if you happen to have a shed load of nos.

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

The problem im seeing more than anything else (now im over it not being fast and autocannony) is that you can't kill a damn thing just by tanking it. And for that matter not being the best tank on the market. It all looks pretty good on paper, but its just not what we're about. It will run missions just fine. But i would never give up my tempy for one of these. I like that i can choose to armor or shield tank. I like that i can choose to be snipey or MWD of doom. I like that i get a double dose of damage bonus.

Line the maeltrom up against the Rokh, for example. The rokh will out tank it, there is no denying it. The rokh will also have range beyond anything achieveable by anything else. Now lets compare it to the Hyperion. The hyperion is a nasty piece of work, essentially a faster blasterthron, which will smoke our new chappy. Next against the abaddon... which is a choice between uber tank or uber gank. Im damned if the bloody ammar have a more versatile ship than we do.

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

Edited by: Aramendel on 25/07/2006 23:26:00

Originally by: Nafri

---

you fit an active tank on a vagabound?

---

And since when is a shieldtank automatically an active one?

On the Maelstrom it will be, mind you, but so what? Cyclones work just splendidly with an active tank.

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

...Next against the abaddon... which is a choice between uber tank or uber gank. Im damned if the bloody ammar have a more versatile ship than we do.

---

The only way you will be able to use an Abaddon as uber tank is if you use projectiles on it. It won't be able to shoot and tank if it uses lasers.

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

The problem im seeing more than anything else (now im over it not being fast and autocannony) is that you can't kill a damn thing just by tanking it. And for that matter not being the best tank on the market. It all looks pretty good on paper, but its just not what we're about. It will run missions just fine. But i would never give up my tempy for one of these. I like that i can choose to armor or shield tank. I like that i can choose to be snipey or MWD of doom. I like that i get a double dose of damage bonus.

Line the maeltrom up against the Rokh, for example. The rokh will out tank it, there is no denying it. The rokh will also have range beyond anything achieveable by anything else. Now lets compare it to the Hyperion. The hyperion is a nasty piece of work, essentially a faster blasterthron, which will smoke our new chappy. Next against the abaddon... which is a choice between uber tank or uber gank. Im damned if the bloody ammar have a more versatile ship than we do.

---

Originally by: Nafri

---

since I started talking about active shield tanks, somewhere in this thread

---

Originally by: Nafri

---

cyclone works splendid in PvP? I have to see that.

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

Originally by: Nafri

---

since I started talking about active shield tanks, somewhere in this thread

---

Which I did not mention with one single word. Read what other people write, not only what you write.

---

Originally by: Severa Crest

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

Edited by: Aramendel on 25/07/2006 23:26:00

Originally by: Nafri

---

you fit an active tank on a vagabound?

---

And since when is a shieldtank automatically an active one?

On the Maelstrom it will be, mind you, but so what? Cyclones work just splendidly with an active tank.

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

...Next against the abaddon... which is a choice between uber tank or uber gank. Im damned if the bloody ammar have a more versatile ship than we do.

---

The only way you will be able to use an Abaddon as uber tank is if you use projectiles on it. It won't be able to shoot and tank if it uses lasers.

---

Cyclone is the lightest and fastest ship in its class....

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

The problem im seeing more than anything else (now im over it not being fast and autocannony) is that you can't kill a damn thing just by tanking it. And for that matter not being the best tank on the market. It all looks pretty good on paper, but its just not what we're about. It will run missions just fine. But i would never give up my tempy for one of these. I like that i can choose to armor or shield tank. I like that i can choose to be snipey or MWD of doom. I like that i get a double dose of damage bonus.

Line the maeltrom up against the Rokh, for example. The rokh will out tank it, there is no denying it. The rokh will also have range beyond anything achieveable by anything else. Now lets compare it to the Hyperion. The hyperion is a nasty piece of work, essentially a faster blasterthron, which will smoke our new chappy. Next against the abaddon... which is a choice between uber tank or uber gank. Im damned if the bloody ammar have a more versatile ship than we do.

---

Not giving up the tempy was exacly what the devs tried to do here. They didnt want to replace current ships. And they havent. All the older ships are still better at some things. We will just have more choices now.

---

Originally by: Severa Crest

---

Heres a quick thought. Give the pest another mid, 8 turret slots, and boost its stats up a bit and make it the tier 3. Then make a new tier 2, or promote the phoon and make a new tier 1. Something with some SPEED.

---

Originally by: Nafri

---

Originally by: Severa Crest

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

Edited by: Aramendel on 25/07/2006 23:26:00

Originally by: Nafri

---

you fit an active tank on a vagabound?

---

And since when is a shieldtank automatically an active one?

On the Maelstrom it will be, mind you, but so what? Cyclones work just splendidly with an active tank.

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

...Next against the abaddon... which is a choice between uber tank or uber gank. Im damned if the bloody ammar have a more versatile ship than we do.

---

The only way you will be able to use an Abaddon as uber tank is if you use projectiles on it. It won't be able to shoot and tank if it uses lasers.

---

Cyclone is the lightest and fastest ship in its class....

---

in a class which is kinda pointless. There is no real need for Battlecruisers for PvP

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

Seriously... theres some arty potential MAYBE. It out damages the tempest by half a gun. However, if it has fewer lows and similar grid, it'll mean fewer gyros...

---

Originally by: Nafri

---

you started to quote me, not the other way around. So what should I have read?

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

Seriously... theres some arty potential MAYBE. It out damages the tempest by half a gun. However, if it has fewer lows and similar grid, it'll mean fewer gyros...

---

Im willing to bet it also out-tanks any other minmatar ship. Also the alpha strike damage with artillery will be very high i think. Some goonfleet member ran some numbers and came up with 3500 damage or something if i remember it correctly.

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 25/07/2006 23:11:35

Quote:

---

2028.148 hp every 4 seconds with a full set of top Crystals, and the currently mythical X-Type Gist XL Booster and Gist Boost Amp.

2568.397 hp every 4 seconds with Pith X-Type XL Booster and Pith X-Type Amp.

You can run the numbers for boost calcs on a Cyclone, same boost bonus.

---

Pointless numbers really. How many people will have a full set of crystals...and even if they did, to take that into pvp... would require someone mad. Im not sure what the cost of a complete crystal set is, but isnt it like 3 billion or something?

Isnt a gist b-type shield booster like 584 hp/4 seconds? With minmatar bs at level 5, that would make it 803 hp every 4s with no amp. With a 30% standard amp, it becomes 1043 hp every 4s. And thats with a gist booster that cost 400 million isk.

Im not sure if my math is completely right, but i think it ends up at like 1000 hp per 4 seconds... the 2500 hp for 4 seconds is for the very rich. Thats unbeatable without nossing.

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

Its really not that much higher than a tempest in alphastrike, and as i say if it has to mount less gyros to shoehorn the guns on (remember it needs to get eight of them on) then the differance goes down. And it'll outtank the rest of the minmatar for sure. Becuase we aren't a tanktastic race. We're the speedyones, remember ?

---

Originally by: Eximius Josari

---

1072.5 hp every 4 seconds with XLSB II and one Shield Amp I.

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

Edited by: Aramendel on 25/07/2006 23:39:34

Originally by: Nafri

---

you started to quote me, not the other way around. So what should I have read?

---

Actually you quoted me first, but that is beside the point.
I answered you to your Minmatar ships may have sometimes a decent ammount of midslots, but you dont shieldtank them reply of my first post.
Where, again, you did not mention "active tanking" at all. Is one required to read all your posts in the thread or whole subforum to find out what the difference is between what you write and what you in fact are trying to say?

Originally by: Nafri

---

in a class which is kinda pointless. There is no real need for Battlecruisers for PvP.

If I want to be fast, I will take a stabber or a rupture. Rupture does the same damage, so the only good thing the cyclone has are the 5 midslots.
But then again, typhoon is not much slower and much better.

---

Which is a BC issue and no "active tanking" issues. Besides. BC agility, is also one thing which will be hopefully fixed soon.

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

Its really not that much higher than a tempest in alphastrike, and as i say if it has to mount less gyros to shoehorn the guns on (remember it needs to get eight of them on) then the differance goes down. And it'll outtank the rest of the minmatar for sure. Becuase we aren't a tanktastic race. We're the speedyones, remember ?

---

Well, personally i dont think a speed bonus on a slow battleship makes much of a difference. Minnie frigates/cruisers are great fun with their speed, but once we get to battleships, you cant really rely on speed to survive unless the speed bonus is massive. Try keeping a t2 blaster mega out of range and still within range of web disruptors. Cant be done.

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

Its really not that much higher than a tempest in alphastrike, and as i say if it has to mount less gyros to shoehorn the guns on (remember it needs to get eight of them on) then the differance goes down. And it'll outtank the rest of the minmatar for sure. Becuase we aren't a tanktastic race. We're the speedyones, remember ?

---

Well, personally i dont think a speed bonus on a slow battleship makes much of a difference. Minnie frigates/cruisers are great fun with their speed, but once we get to battleships, you cant really rely on speed to survive unless the speed bonus is massive. Try keeping a t2 blaster mega out of range and still within range of web disruptors. Cant be done.

---

I can't really at the moment, and as the gallente get a new , faster, shinier blasterthron its even less likely it can be. Thats what i was hoping we'd get. A shiney, racing striped speed demon that can dictate range and compete against such things.

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

I can't really at the moment, and as the gallente get a new , faster, shinier blasterthron its even less likely it can be. Thats what i was hoping we'd get. A shiney, racing striped speed demon that can dictate range and compete against such things.

---

Originally by: Nafri

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

Its really not that much higher than a tempest in alphastrike, and as i say if it has to mount less gyros to shoehorn the guns on (remember it needs to get eight of them on) then the differance goes down. And it'll outtank the rest of the minmatar for sure. Becuase we aren't a tanktastic race. We're the speedyones, remember ?

---

Well, personally i dont think a speed bonus on a slow battleship makes much of a difference. Minnie frigates/cruisers are great fun with their speed, but once we get to battleships, you cant really rely on speed to survive unless the speed bonus is massive. Try keeping a t2 blaster mega out of range and still within range of web disruptors. Cant be done.

---

I can't really at the moment, and as the gallente get a new , faster, shinier blasterthron its even less likely it can be. Thats what i was hoping we'd get. A shiney, racing striped speed demon that can dictate range and compete against such things.

---

I would have prefered an armor tanking missle boat or a double ROF DPS monster

---

Originally by: Severa Crest

---

Originally by: Nafri

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

Its really not that much higher than a tempest in alphastrike, and as i say if it has to mount less gyros to shoehorn the guns on (remember it needs to get eight of them on) then the differance goes down. And it'll outtank the rest of the minmatar for sure. Becuase we aren't a tanktastic race. We're the speedyones, remember ?

---

Well, personally i dont think a speed bonus on a slow battleship makes much of a difference. Minnie frigates/cruisers are great fun with their speed, but once we get to battleships, you cant really rely on speed to survive unless the speed bonus is massive. Try keeping a t2 blaster mega out of range and still within range of web disruptors. Cant be done.

---

I can't really at the moment, and as the gallente get a new , faster, shinier blasterthron its even less likely it can be. Thats what i was hoping we'd get. A shiney, racing striped speed demon that can dictate range and compete against such things.

---

I would have prefered an armor tanking missle boat or a double ROF DPS monster

---

Indeed something different would be nice instead of just making bigger versions of the same ship.

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

Originally by: Severa Crest

---

Originally by: Nafri

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

Its really not that much higher than a tempest in alphastrike, and as i say if it has to mount less gyros to shoehorn the guns on (remember it needs to get eight of them on) then the differance goes down. And it'll outtank the rest of the minmatar for sure. Becuase we aren't a tanktastic race. We're the speedyones, remember ?

---

Well, personally i dont think a speed bonus on a slow battleship makes much of a difference. Minnie frigates/cruisers are great fun with their speed, but once we get to battleships, you cant really rely on speed to survive unless the speed bonus is massive. Try keeping a t2 blaster mega out of range and still within range of web disruptors. Cant be done.

---

I can't really at the moment, and as the gallente get a new , faster, shinier blasterthron its even less likely it can be. Thats what i was hoping we'd get. A shiney, racing striped speed demon that can dictate range and compete against such things.

---

I would have prefered an armor tanking missle boat or a double ROF DPS monster

---

Indeed something different would be nice instead of just making bigger versions of the same ship.

---

No no ... a big stabber would be good. A big belicose and a big cyclone are not.

---

Originally by: Eximius Josari

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

Originally by: Severa Crest

---

Originally by: Nafri

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

Its really not that much higher than a tempest in alphastrike, and as i say if it has to mount less gyros to shoehorn the guns on (remember it needs to get eight of them on) then the differance goes down. And it'll outtank the rest of the minmatar for sure. Becuase we aren't a tanktastic race. We're the speedyones, remember ?

---

Well, personally i dont think a speed bonus on a slow battleship makes much of a difference. Minnie frigates/cruisers are great fun with their speed, but once we get to battleships, you cant really rely on speed to survive unless the speed bonus is massive. Try keeping a t2 blaster mega out of range and still within range of web disruptors. Cant be done.

---

I can't really at the moment, and as the gallente get a new , faster, shinier blasterthron its even less likely it can be. Thats what i was hoping we'd get. A shiney, racing striped speed demon that can dictate range and compete against such things.

---

I would have prefered an armor tanking missle boat or a double ROF DPS monster

---

Indeed something different would be nice instead of just making bigger versions of the same ship.

---

No no ... a big stabber would be good. A big belicose and a big cyclone are not.

---

8/6/6 with 10% Velocity bonus and 160 m/s base speed?

---

Originally by: Kael D'mende

---

Originally by: Eximius Josari

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

Originally by: Severa Crest

---

Originally by: Nafri

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

Its really not that much higher than a tempest in alphastrike, and as i say if it has to mount less gyros to shoehorn the guns on (remember it needs to get eight of them on) then the differance goes down. And it'll outtank the rest of the minmatar for sure. Becuase we aren't a tanktastic race. We're the speedyones, remember ?

---

Well, personally i dont think a speed bonus on a slow battleship makes much of a difference. Minnie frigates/cruisers are great fun with their speed, but once we get to battleships, you cant really rely on speed to survive unless the speed bonus is massive. Try keeping a t2 blaster mega out of range and still within range of web disruptors. Cant be done.

---

I can't really at the moment, and as the gallente get a new , faster, shinier blasterthron its even less likely it can be. Thats what i was hoping we'd get. A shiney, racing striped speed demon that can dictate range and compete against such things.

---

I would have prefered an armor tanking missle boat or a double ROF DPS monster

---

Indeed something different would be nice instead of just making bigger versions of the same ship.

---

No no ... a big stabber would be good. A big belicose and a big cyclone are not.

---

8/6/6 with 10% Velocity bonus and 160 m/s base speed?

---

thats a total of 200m/s with lvl5, not that usefull imo, unless its made of air so it responds fast, and get that much better increase from any speed mods.. but doubt it :O)

---

Originally by: Matrices Sunbound

---

This ship as proposed will be worthless. You cannot shield tank and tackle at the same time against a ship in the same class. The armor tanker has 7 or 8 lows for tank plus 1 mid slot for cap injector to help with the tank usually. The shield tanker immediately wastes 4 slots on tackle + injector. Three slots is not a tank. And no, more gyrostabilizers in the lows won't compensate enough.

This is just a big Cyclone, which means a much worse Cyclone, and the original is already worthless for tank + tackle. Best bet with this thing will be to lug it around in small gangs, fit all guns and tank and hope you somehow land in range of some targets. But who flies BS in small gangs anyway. Not impressed.

---

Originally by: Nafri

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

Originally by: Nafri

---

you fit an active tank on a vagabound?

---

And since when is a shieldtank automatically an active one?

On the Maelstrom it will be, mind you, but so what? Cyclones work just splendidly with an active tank.

---

I think 'splendidly' is a bit of a stretch. They work pretty well, if you happen to have a shed load of nos.

---

cyclone works splendid in PvP? I have to see that.

---

Originally by: CCP Hammer

---

Boobies

---

Originally by: Foulis

---

Originally by: Nafri

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

Originally by: Nafri

---

you fit an active tank on a vagabound?

---

And since when is a shieldtank automatically an active one?

On the Maelstrom it will be, mind you, but so what? Cyclones work just splendidly with an active tank.

---

I think 'splendidly' is a bit of a stretch. They work pretty well, if you happen to have a shed load of nos.

---

cyclone works splendid in PvP? I have to see that.

---

What you mean a ship that can fit a good tank, nos, guns, and still fill its lowslots with damage mods?

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

Originally by: Kael D'mende

---

Originally by: Eximius Josari

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

Originally by: Severa Crest

---

Originally by: Nafri

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Originally by: Valea Silpha

---

Its really not that much higher than a tempest in alphastrike, and as i say if it has to mount less gyros to shoehorn the guns on (remember it needs to get eight of them on) then the differance goes down. And it'll outtank the rest of the minmatar for sure. Becuase we aren't a tanktastic race. We're the speedyones, remember ?

---

Well, personally i dont think a speed bonus on a slow battleship makes much of a difference. Minnie frigates/cruisers are great fun with their speed, but once we get to battleships, you cant really rely on speed to survive unless the speed bonus is massive. Try keeping a t2 blaster mega out of range and still within range of web disruptors. Cant be done.

---

I can't really at the moment, and as the gallente get a new , faster, shinier blasterthron its even less likely it can be. Thats what i was hoping we'd get. A shiney, racing striped speed demon that can dictate range and compete against such things.

---

I would have prefered an armor tanking missle boat or a double ROF DPS monster

---

Indeed something different would be nice instead of just making bigger versions of the same ship.

---

No no ... a big stabber would be good. A big belicose and a big cyclone are not.

---

8/6/6 with 10% Velocity bonus and 160 m/s base speed?

---

thats a total of 200m/s with lvl5, not that usefull imo, unless its made of air so it responds fast, and get that much better increase from any speed mods.. but doubt it :O)

---

50% of 160 is 80. 80 + 160 = 240. Thats before skills...

That means without adding snakes or navigation over 1km/s on MWD. With jsut skills taken into account, your looking at 1.5-1.8 km/s.

That'll do nicely.

---

Originally by: Nafri

---

for a gunship you need a tracking computer, or you wont do ****. Also a raven can decide range very easily and suffers no tracking problems.

---

Originally by: Matrices Sunbound

---

This ship as proposed will be worthless. You cannot shield tank and tackle at the same time against a ship in the same class. The armor tanker has 7 or 8 lows for tank plus 1 mid slot for cap injector to help with the tank usually. The shield tanker immediately wastes 4 slots on tackle + injector. Three slots is not a tank. And no, more gyrostabilizers in the lows won't compensate enough.

This is just a big Cyclone, which means a much worse Cyclone, and the original is already worthless for tank + tackle. Best bet with this thing will be to lug it around in small gangs, fit all guns and tank and hope you somehow land in range of some targets. But who flies BS in small gangs anyway. Not impressed.

---

Originally by: Locke Ateid

---

Originally by: Foulis

---

What you mean a ship that can fit a good tank, nos, guns, and still fill its lowslots with damage mods?

---

Is that before or after you've already used two of your med slots (Propolsion mod and scrambler)?

---

Originally by: CCP Hammer

---

Boobies

---

Originally by: kessah

---

Edited by: kessah on 25/07/2006 20:57:33
A shield booster bonus is completly absured for a matari ship, its being limited and that is not cool for matari!

They need and i stress this NEED to be versatile. Its a really bad idea to limit them to shield tanking.

better to have a similar bonus to the Hyperon with the mwd than the tank, seriously not happy with it being forced *and it is really* to shield tank

Im really hoping the dev's read this

---

Originally by: kessah

---

Edited by: kessah on 25/07/2006 20:57:33
A shield booster bonus is completly absured for a matari ship, its being limited and that is not cool for matari!

They need and i stress this NEED to be versatile. Its a really bad idea to limit them to shield tanking.

better to have a similar bonus to the Hyperon with the mwd than the tank, seriously not happy with it being forced *and it is really* to shield tank

Im really hoping the dev's read this

---

Originally by: Frezik

---

Gack, what's with this thread? A 8-7-4/5 layout would mean a ship that can tank, gank, AND EWar fairly effectively. What's with the complaining?

---

Originally by: Wrayeth

---

I could live with 6 mids if it had a huge drone bay so I could field 5 heavy web drones. Otherwise, it needs 7 mids.

---

Originally by: Ath Amon

---

i'm not quite happy looking at it on paper but in the end we have probably to try it before to judge.

what probably upset me the most is that many many times minnie supposed strenght is throw out of window.

minnies should have fast big hitters and now we get a slow cumbersome ship that can't dictate range (essential for ACs) while galliente will probably get the fastest/more maneuverable BS.

is not minmatar to stand still shoting at enemies that fight in their optimal and outmaneuver our ship.

the minnie "tank" should be more about low sig resolution, giving bad tracking and to fight in our optimal diminuishing damage we get from enemies.

maybe the ship will be good and we will be happy about it... but by how it was described it doesn't feel like a minnie ship.

---

Originally by: Wizie

---

I don't know what the slot layout will be like.

But judging by how the Cyclone works, I don't forsee 7 mids for the Malestorm.

6 seems more likely.


I HATE THAT.

A Raven has a hard time shield tanking with 6 slots and tackling.

A shield tanking turret boat requires slots to close/keep range, mwd/ab and web. And tackling.

2x invul, 1 dmg control and xl shield booster II sounds good. Judging again by the way CCP designs Minmatar ships, EXPECT to fit ATLEAST 1 CPU mod to be able to fit

invuls, gyros, xl boosters, mwd and tackling.

---

Originally by: Nafri

---

Originally by: Sarmaul

---

Originally by: Nafri

---

Honestly, who will fit an active tank on a battleship?

---

Are you honestly telling me nobody fits active tanks on battleships?

---

Tell me any decent active shield tanking setup.

Everysetup you come up with, ECM will be a better choice.

---

Originally by: Severa Crest

---

OK fair point...

mids could be - mwd, xl boost, 2 x inv, cap booster, web scram (if 7 mids)

---

Originally by: Wizie

---

Sarm, in all honesty, I wouldn't consider the phoons bonii as a double dmg bonus.

I like the shield tank bonus idea for the tier 3, however, with 6 mids, an autopest with shield tank will work in groups, and even there it would do better fitting 1400s.

6 mids on a turret boat don't really work that well if you are playing the close range shield tank game.

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 25/07/2006 22:08:11

Originally by: babylonstew

---

so all these people whining the raven can tank and gank with 6/5 slots is actually over powered, but a min ship with say 6/5 and a built in shield boost amp, so basically 7/5 for example, isnt up to scratch tanking wise?, what have i missed?
either ravens tank/gank isnt actually over powered at all, or your after a super tank with 8 turrets?

---

People seem to think it will be either 8/7/5 or 8/6/6 to make a total of 20 slots. If it gets 7 medium slots, its tanking will be excellent. Personally i like this ship if it gets 7 mediums.

---

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

---

Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 26/07/2006 07:21:16

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 25/07/2006 22:08:11

Originally by: babylonstew

---

so all these people whining the raven can tank and gank with 6/5 slots is actually over powered, but a min ship with say 6/5 and a built in shield boost amp, so basically 7/5 for example, isnt up to scratch tanking wise?, what have i missed?
either ravens tank/gank isnt actually over powered at all, or your after a super tank with 8 turrets?

---

People seem to think it will be either 8/7/5 or 8/6/6 to make a total of 20 slots. If it gets 7 medium slots, its tanking will be excellent. Personally i like this ship if it gets 7 mediums.

---

If Maelstorm gets 8/7/5 and not 8/6/6, I will start whinning every day to get Caldari ship slots reassigned. A quick preview of my whine would be

Moa - 6/5/3
Eagle - 6/6/3
Raven - 8/7/4

---

Originally by: Sarmaul

---

Edited by: Sarmaul on 25/07/2006 20:17:29

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

---

Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 25/07/2006 20:07:22

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Originally by: M00dy

---

Imagine the whinage.
8/6/6 would be so... bleh.

---

I want 7 medium slots. It would be so much fun to no longer fear Ravens.

DIE RAVENS DIE!

---

Nope. You think it is easy to shield tank with 6 slots, huh? At least you know how hard the Raven is tanking with 6 slots.

/me tries hard to imagine something as huge as a BS that can MWD and orbit at 20km shooting blasters.

---

Oh get off your high horse.

The Rokh is a giant Ferox (optimal range + shield resistance bonus) while the Maelstrom is a giant cyclone. Both ships have identical mids and lows, so why not the Tier3 BS when the obviously follow the same pattern? Where has it been stated that no battleship ship must have more midslots than the Raven, a Tier2 battleship?

The same applies to Command Ships too btw.

---

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 25/07/2006 22:08:11

Originally by: babylonstew

---

so all these people whining the raven can tank and gank with 6/5 slots is actually over powered, but a min ship with say 6/5 and a built in shield boost amp, so basically 7/5 for example, isnt up to scratch tanking wise?, what have i missed?
either ravens tank/gank isnt actually over powered at all, or your after a super tank with 8 turrets?

---

People seem to think it will be either 8/7/5 or 8/6/6 to make a total of 20 slots. If it gets 7 medium slots, its tanking will be excellent. Personally i like this ship if it gets 7 mediums.

---

If Maelstorm gets 8/7/5 and not 8/6/6, I will start whinning every day to get Caldari ship slots reassigned. A quick preview of my whine would be

Moa - 6/5/3
Eagle - 6/6/3 or 6/5/4
Raven - 8/7/4

---

Originally by: Wizie

---

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

---

Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 26/07/2006 07:21:16

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 25/07/2006 22:08:11

Originally by: babylonstew

---

so all these people whining the raven can tank and gank with 6/5 slots is actually over powered, but a min ship with say 6/5 and a built in shield boost amp, so basically 7/5 for example, isnt up to scratch tanking wise?, what have i missed?
either ravens tank/gank isnt actually over powered at all, or your after a super tank with 8 turrets?

---

People seem to think it will be either 8/7/5 or 8/6/6 to make a total of 20 slots. If it gets 7 medium slots, its tanking will be excellent. Personally i like this ship if it gets 7 mediums.

---

If Maelstorm gets 8/7/5 and not 8/6/6, I will start whinning every day to get Caldari ship slots reassigned. A quick preview of my whine would be

Moa - 6/5/3
Eagle - 6/6/3
Raven - 8/7/4

---

The difference is that unlike a missile boat, the Maelstrom cannot use all its mid slots for shield tanks.

Quite frankly, 2 of those mids will be dedicated to fitting a speed mod and a tackling mod (web/scram)

---

Originally by: Sarmaul

---

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

---

If Maelstorm gets 8/7/5 and not 8/6/6, I will start whinning every day to get Caldari ship slots reassigned. A quick preview of my whine would be

Moa - 6/5/3
Eagle - 6/6/3 or 6/5/4
Raven - 8/7/4

---

That's some pretty crappy reasoning tbh. Where is this strange logic coming from that no ship can have more midslots than the Raven?

As far as I see it, the Maelstrom needs 7 mids to prevent it from turning into a poorly armour tanked ewar boat. MWD, Web, 20km, Cap Booster, XL Booster, Twin Invul for the mids or else it's tank won't survive 2 seconds, it's cap won't survive 2 seconds, it won't be able to keep traversal down or stop the target from warping away. The Raven need not worry about traversal so it doesn't need the web.

Now, in case you hadn't noticed the Rokh is a giant Ferox and the Maelstrom is a giant Cyclone. If they can have the same amount of midslots at the battlecruiser level, why not at the battleship level?

---

Originally by: Sarmaul

---

Hate to break it to you, but it looks like the devs are turning Minmatar into awesome shield tankers too :). Read Tux's description of the Maelstrom - this ship is designed for tankage which isn't going to happen without those 7 slots.

Also, do you see people here *****ing that the Cyclone can't tank with only 5 mids (quiet at the back!). The Eagle and Moa, with the resistance bonuses, are far better off loading up a passive tank that lets then take a beating from range while they snipe off frigates.

---

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

---

Originally by: Wizie

---

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

---

Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 26/07/2006 07:21:16

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 25/07/2006 22:08:11

Originally by: babylonstew

---

so all these people whining the raven can tank and gank with 6/5 slots is actually over powered, but a min ship with say 6/5 and a built in shield boost amp, so basically 7/5 for example, isnt up to scratch tanking wise?, what have i missed?
either ravens tank/gank isnt actually over powered at all, or your after a super tank with 8 turrets?

---

People seem to think it will be either 8/7/5 or 8/6/6 to make a total of 20 slots. If it gets 7 medium slots, its tanking will be excellent. Personally i like this ship if it gets 7 mediums.

---

If Maelstorm gets 8/7/5 and not 8/6/6, I will start whinning every day to get Caldari ship slots reassigned. A quick preview of my whine would be

Moa - 6/5/3
Eagle - 6/6/3
Raven - 8/7/4

---

The difference is that unlike a missile boat, the Maelstrom cannot use all its mid slots for shield tanks.

Quite frankly, 2 of those mids will be dedicated to fitting a speed mod and a tackling mod (web/scram)

---

So you guys want a solopwnmobile? Gank, tackle/debuff and tank?

---

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

---

The reasoning is very simple. Honestly, if Caldari are shield specialists and some ships have really illogical slot layouts then I dont see why not other race who can shield tank but not really specialises in it must shield tank properly.
.

---

Originally by: Wizie

---

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

---

Originally by: Wizie

---

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

---

Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 26/07/2006 07:21:16

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 25/07/2006 22:08:11

Originally by: babylonstew

---

so all these people whining the raven can tank and gank with 6/5 slots is actually over powered, but a min ship with say 6/5 and a built in shield boost amp, so basically 7/5 for example, isnt up to scratch tanking wise?, what have i missed?
either ravens tank/gank isnt actually over powered at all, or your after a super tank with 8 turrets?

---

People seem to think it will be either 8/7/5 or 8/6/6 to make a total of 20 slots. If it gets 7 medium slots, its tanking will be excellent. Personally i like this ship if it gets 7 mediums.

---

If Maelstorm gets 8/7/5 and not 8/6/6, I will start whinning every day to get Caldari ship slots reassigned. A quick preview of my whine would be

Moa - 6/5/3
Eagle - 6/6/3
Raven - 8/7/4

---

The difference is that unlike a missile boat, the Maelstrom cannot use all its mid slots for shield tanks.

Quite frankly, 2 of those mids will be dedicated to fitting a speed mod and a tackling mod (web/scram)

---

So you guys want a solopwnmobile? Gank, tackle/debuff and tank?

---

Hmm lets see. A ship designed with shield tank in mind, if going close would need speed mods (not everyone has the I-Win missile option). If going close and fighting targets at that range, would need tackling mods (web, not everyone has the I-Win missile option).

---