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Khan Wrenth
Hedion University Amarr Empire
112
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Posted - 2015.02.27 12:46:19 -
[31] - Quote
Sentry drone provide far too much versatility that infringes upon the roles of other ships and weapon systems. I know this isn't the most helpful suggestion in the game, especially since it has been said a million times before, but just go ahead and remove sentries entirely. They don't belong in the game.
Drones in general are in a nice place of strengths and weaknesses. But some of those weaknesses, like travel time and destructibility, lose meaning when you can fire across 100km. All other drones have to move to their target, putting them at risk for webbing and being hit by brawling/short range ships. Sentry drones hit out at long range, farther out than many ships can target, and farther out than most can apply meaningful damage to them.
Can Ishtars/sentries be defeated? Absolutely 100%. It's been discussed to death hundreds of times on the forums that I'm aware of. But sentries are heavily lopsided in all of their upsides (immune to EWAR, no cap, no ammo, long range, selectable damage, automatic aggression, great alpha strike, assignable, etc). Why would people go Eagle or Zealot for sniping, when you can do better with sentries? Sentries by themselves obsolete two other HACs just by existing.
All this said, I use Ishtars and sentries myself. I own two Ishtars and use them in lowsec and highsec. So I'd be heavily effected if you removed sentries. But I also fly the Zealot and Eagle, and I honestly can say I prefer flying them over the Ishtar because turrets are more fun to use. Maybe I don't have the same level of experience with HACs that other pilots here might, but I do see a problem when one HAC routinely out-performs two HACs in both of the latter's damage profiles. Any time I run into trouble, Ishtars are my run-to vehicle because they just do everything thanks to sentries and drone mechanics.
I know, this is the part where everyone now joins in on a doggy pile of flaming me. Isn't the first time, won't be the last time.
HTFU.-á Adapt or die.-á Beware the falcon punch.
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Anthar Thebess
895
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Posted - 2015.02.27 12:52:30 -
[32] - Quote
No sentry bonus is also good thing in exchange for heavy drone bonus buff? Simple smartbombs can kill them.
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
11938
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Posted - 2015.02.27 12:52:34 -
[33] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: Too much? Too little? Let us know.
Too little. The dps they can project at sentry range still exceeds that of any other AHAC, while still inexplicably having the fitting to strap on a 100mn afterburner.
This is a good start, nothing more.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Arthur Aihaken
X A X
4083
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Posted - 2015.02.27 12:59:04 -
[34] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Too much? Too little? Let us know. Sentry drones should ideally be limited to Battlecruisers, Battleships and Carriers.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Speedkermit Damo
Demonic Retribution
392
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Posted - 2015.02.27 13:05:23 -
[35] - Quote
I fear reducing their DPS will only make people bring even more Ishtars to compensate.
The nerfs should be to their damage application/projection
Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
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War Kitten
Panda McLegion
5881
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 13:11:57 -
[36] - Quote
Make sentries 30m^3 instead of 25.
Problem solved.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all.
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Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
269
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Posted - 2015.02.27 13:17:33 -
[37] - Quote
It's a start. I'd certainly not object to Ishtars having a harder job fielding Sentries, whether that be through them being larger or just blocked entirely. |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
1626
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Posted - 2015.02.27 13:26:55 -
[38] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Would rather have seen the ishtar lose the sentries entirely.
This, it doesn't make sense to have a BS weapon on a HAC.
Signature Tanking Best Tanking
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Grytok
KL0NKRIEGER
6
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Posted - 2015.02.27 13:29:23 -
[39] - Quote
The thing that made the Ishtar king of the hill for fleet-warfare isn't the ships boni, it's the Drone Damage Amps.
Remove the Drone Damage Amp module and leave the Ishtars boni as they are. |
Gustav Mannfred
Summer of Mumuit
105
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Posted - 2015.02.27 13:31:44 -
[40] - Quote
Why not the following:
decrease the volume of Heavy drones to 20m3 and decrease the dronebandwith of all cruiser sized ships to 100m3, that means, cruisers still can use 5 heavys, that can easly be destroyed and need some travel time while they lose 20% damage when using sentrys.
i'm REALY miss the old stuff.-á
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=24183
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Jack Hayson
Atztech Inc. Ixtab.
106
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Posted - 2015.02.27 13:41:06 -
[41] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Would rather have seen the ishtar lose the sentries entirely. This. Get rid of sentries on cruisers. They are battleship weapons.
Reducing the damage by a few percent doesn't solve the underlying problem. It only means that the blob needs to be a few percent bigger to alpha stuff.
Or just get rid of sentries entirely. Stuff like sentry carriers are no less broken. They essentially turn the carrier into a super powerful gun boat. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
5882
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Posted - 2015.02.27 13:43:58 -
[42] - Quote
Gustav Mannfred wrote:Why not the following:
decrease the volume of Heavy drones to 20m3 and decrease the dronebandwith of all cruiser sized ships to 100m3, that means, cruisers still can use 5 heavys, that can easly be destroyed and need some travel time while they lose 20% damage when using sentrys.
This is probably better than my idea of increasing sentry bandwidth. Go with this.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all.
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Turbular Knight
Failed Diplomacy
10
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Posted - 2015.02.27 14:01:45 -
[43] - Quote
Dear CCP can I please trade in all my sentry drone skills? I really don't have any need for them anylonger.
LONG LIVE HEAVY ATTACK DRONES |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1342
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Posted - 2015.02.27 14:01:47 -
[44] - Quote
Simply removing bonus damage isn't enough. Something has to be done to affect an ishtar's damage application, engagement flexibility, excessive grid, or any combination of the three. The changes, as is, are countered simply by bringing a few more people.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
983
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Posted - 2015.02.27 14:02:36 -
[45] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Gustav Mannfred wrote:Why not the following:
decrease the volume of Heavy drones to 20m3 and decrease the dronebandwith of all cruiser sized ships to 100m3, that means, cruisers still can use 5 heavys, that can easly be destroyed and need some travel time while they lose 20% damage when using sentrys. This is probably better than my idea of increasing sentry bandwidth. Go with this.
Blobs would simply bring 20% more ships hence my proposal to switch the sentry bonus to a heavies bonus. The heavies have to be more appealing then the sentries for them to be chosen otherwise blobs will simply compensate any dps nerf with more ships in the blob |
colera deldios
293
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Posted - 2015.02.27 14:04:56 -
[46] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:In Scylla we are deploying a set of high-impact balance changes.
This thread is for discussing a proposed changed to the Ishtar. We are planning to split it's drone damage bonus in to two bonuses so that we can lower the bonus to sentry damage. It would look like this:
Old bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage
New bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Light, Medium and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage
This change is being made to encourage diversity in ship choice across EVE. The Ishtar has proven strong enough with its current bonus set to dominate in many environments and we want to make sure there is plenty of room for ship choice other than the Ishtar. We came to this decision using a combination of internal metrics, community feedback and by using EFT like everyone else.
Too much? Too little? Let us know.
How do you not ******* see that DPS is not the bloody ******* problem. For **** sake do you even look at how the ship is used and why is it OP or do you simply wing it as you go.
DPS change only makes Ishtar meh for solo pvp and pve. As for fleets at some point DPS is useless you could have 300 DPS and if you have the numbers it does not matter. Ishtars problem is ******* trageting range and drone control range not having to sacrifice tank or speed. With this change all you have to do is add few more Ishtars to your fleet.
This makes no sense especially considering the size of the avg. Ishtar fleet. Tengus and Machariels were hard counter to Ishtars but they could not sustain the fight because they bleed out logistic ships so fast and this is for that exact reason the targeting/control range.
So with this pointless change you have achieved nothing. NOTHING.. No other ship in HAC class can combat the Ishtar at it's range/speed/sig combination and no other T3 can do it other than Tengu and even Tengu can only do it until Ishtars wipe all their logi off the field which due to targeting/control range is BLOODY ******* EASY.
- Reduce Ishtars base targeting range
- Reduce Ishtars drone control range
- - 30 CPU
- + Either small sig increase or small base velocity decrease
And that would BALANCE the Ishtar. It would remain a good SOLO PVP and PVE ship and in fleets you could now actually use few more doctrines against it.
With those changes you still use the Ishtar as you do right now however you would have a hole in your Tank which means Harpies, Murder crows, Eagles, Tengus, Machs could all take you on.
And if you wanted to retain the Tank you would have to come in closer and fight at closer ranges which means you could use Legions, Lokis, Proteus, Zealots even battleship doctrines against them.
And this way it would depend on your tactics and FC's skills and members skills.
Seriously how can you do a good job with a Tengu and then fail so hopelessly with Ishtar. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
9924
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 14:08:23 -
[47] - Quote
colera deldios wrote:CCP Rise wrote:In Scylla we are deploying a set of high-impact balance changes.
This thread is for discussing a proposed changed to the Ishtar. We are planning to split it's drone damage bonus in to two bonuses so that we can lower the bonus to sentry damage. It would look like this:
Old bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage
New bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Light, Medium and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage
This change is being made to encourage diversity in ship choice across EVE. The Ishtar has proven strong enough with its current bonus set to dominate in many environments and we want to make sure there is plenty of room for ship choice other than the Ishtar. We came to this decision using a combination of internal metrics, community feedback and by using EFT like everyone else.
Too much? Too little? Let us know. How do you not ******* see that DPS is not the bloody ******* problem. For **** sake do you even look at how the ship is used and why is it OP or do you simply wing it as you go. DPS change only makes Ishtar meh for solo pvp and pve. As for fleets at some point DPS is useless you could have 300 DPS and if you have the numbers it does not matter. Ishtars problem is ******* trageting range and drone control range not having to sacrifice tank or speed. With this change all you have to do is add few more Ishtars to your fleet.This makes no sense especially considering the size of the avg. Ishtar fleet. Tengus and Machariels were hard counter to Ishtars but they could not sustain the fight because they bleed out logistic ships so fast and this is for that exact reason the targeting/control range. So with this pointless change you have achieved nothing. NOTHING.. No other ship in HAC class can combat the Ishtar at it's range/speed/sig combination and no other T3 can do it other than Tengu and even Tengu can only do it until Ishtars wipe all their logi off the field which due to targeting/control range is BLOODY ******* EASY.
- Reduce Ishtars base targeting range
- Reduce Ishtars drone control range
- - 30 CPU
- + Either small sig increase or small base velocity decrease
And that would BALANCE the Ishtar. It would remain a good SOLO PVP and PVE ship and in fleets you could now actually use few more doctrines against it. With those changes you still use the Ishtar as you do right now however you would have a hole in your Tank which means Harpies, Murder crows, Eagles, Tengus, Machs could all take you on. And if you wanted to retain the Tank you would have to come in closer and fight at closer ranges which means you could use Legions, Lokis, Proteus, Zealots even battleship doctrines against them. And this way it would depend on your tactics and FC's skills and members skills. Seriously how can you do a good job with a Tengu and then fail so hopelessly with Ishtar.
Everything you just said got ignored because you lost your **** while saying it.
Yes it is the application and control range that are the problems, not dps, calm down and you might get somewhere. |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
408
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 14:09:30 -
[48] - Quote
well this wasn't the 5 m/s nerf to its speed i was expecting but it's still clearly a "terrified of making too big a change that there's no chance of it going far enough" change (like the last ishtar nerf). at least it's a little bigger than the last one. |
Zosius
The Scope Gallente Federation
64
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Posted - 2015.02.27 14:16:10 -
[49] - Quote
Why don't you make that sentries out of 20km range from the ship get disconnected and be done with it? Leave dps alone.
http://cloakybastard.blogspot.com
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ShadowBlazie
The Drunken Empire Fatal Ascension
0
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Posted - 2015.02.27 14:17:57 -
[50] - Quote
Ishtars even using heavies and sentries doesn't make a lot of sense. Every other had uses cruiser class weapons, but the ishtar gets battleship size drones?
Why not give them bonuses to medium and lights, without the massive hp boost the Gila uses? |
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1098
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Posted - 2015.02.27 14:19:38 -
[51] - Quote
New bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Light, Medium and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage
i would prefer New bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Heavy Drone damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone damage
but there are other nerfs it needs, having same dronebay as the domi and geddon instead of having the same as the Eos is just wrong. 125/250 bay 300 max makes more sense for a cruiser size hull and stops tons of high HP sentry drops combined with the HP bonus removal which i think should be a separate bonus entirely detached from the damage bonus as it is in some frigates. i would also suggest removing some turrets aswell too limit dps potential. perhaps also reduce the inbuilt drone range bonus, say 70km, might make people have too do more for the same result.
it also raises the question will the other sub battleships get the same 5% sentry damage bonus ? Eos, Myrmidon, VNI,vexor (should be only mediums really), prophecy?
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists.
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone/fighter assist mechanic.
Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1344
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Posted - 2015.02.27 14:20:11 -
[52] - Quote
Zosius wrote:Why don't you make that sentries out of 20km range from the ship get disconnected and be done with it? Leave dps alone. Actually, this is not a bad idea.
I'd rephrase it as make drone link augmentors ineffective on sentries.
Drone control range seems misapplied towards stationary drones. A reduction to the effect of (Advanced) Drone Avionics to sentries would also help.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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rsantos
Mosquito Squadron Mordus Angels
30
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Posted - 2015.02.27 14:21:29 -
[53] - Quote
I have to say sentry isthars are way to good... this should help with that... BUT.
One of the problem with isthar and drone boots in general is that you don't compromise your fittings, by picking different damage application types/ranges, and the Isthar has way too much fitting room. So you can fit a full tank, multiple defensive neutralizers and put out battleship DPS from 100Km. Cap regen is way to good, you can almost perma mwd.
Even with heavy drones Isthar as no match in its class (my ratting Isthar putts out 830 DPS and I can easy sit at 50-60 km and kite everything and still pull my drones before they are popped by rats).
Look back at what you did with the Hurricane and to some extent the Cynabal. Neft the its fittings into the ground! We all sick of Isthars anyway.
Tip: All ships with drone bonus should have 2-3 highs tops and one turret slot!
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Ivory Kantenu
Applied Anarchy SpaceMonkey's Alliance
73
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Posted - 2015.02.27 14:24:48 -
[54] - Quote
As a part of an Alliance that has been using Ishtars in the meta game for quite awhile now, I can honestly say that the damage nerf is still not far enough to stop this ship from being too much.
The fact of the matter is this, the only true tactic to this ship is drop and scoot. As long as you are far outside the enemies optimal range, you have little to nothing to fear outside of poor FC moves and potentially bombers. The bombs issue is easily avoided, as all you have to do is spread drones a good deal out and only end up losing a small handful per run, instead of the entire cloud. Shooting drones 1 by 1 is still not even close to effective, and is ultimately never a go-to.
The fact is, even with the changes to Bouncers compounding this, range and tracking on sentry drones is still too high on a cruiser class ship. You're getting Battleship DPS and application on a ship that moves marginally faster in a cap stable environment, and can more easily control a field. Simply put, is it the elephant in the room with a giant sore thumb that sticks out, but this elephant does 1500m/s and hits harder than a speeding train. It's time to fix it.
-Remove the Range Bonus. This ship should not be able to sit further out than a Battleship and apply greater DPS in such a fashion. -Remove one mid. Don't add a low. Removing one mid to the low will only make it so people will just move a Tracking Link to the Low instead, keeping the shield buffer alive. Don't give that option. -Reduce the Bay, or balance sentries to take more room and BW, and adjust other ship bays to compensate.
[i]Learn the basics of Wormhole Selling:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=101693&find=unread[/i]
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1098
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 14:24:58 -
[55] - Quote
i would also consider a stronger drawback for droneboats not needing highs for dps so maybe -2 slots instead of the current -1,
BUT this needs too be applied too gurista ships aswell , they are so OP atm, 2 uber drones also can't be justified, the gila and rattlesnake do obscene amount of damage they need nerfing.
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists.
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone/fighter assist mechanic.
Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
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Blobskillz McBlub
Manson Family Advent of Fate
24
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Posted - 2015.02.27 14:25:15 -
[56] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:colera deldios wrote:CCP Rise wrote:In Scylla we are deploying a set of high-impact balance changes.
This thread is for discussing a proposed changed to the Ishtar. We are planning to split it's drone damage bonus in to two bonuses so that we can lower the bonus to sentry damage. It would look like this:
Old bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage
New bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Light, Medium and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage
This change is being made to encourage diversity in ship choice across EVE. The Ishtar has proven strong enough with its current bonus set to dominate in many environments and we want to make sure there is plenty of room for ship choice other than the Ishtar. We came to this decision using a combination of internal metrics, community feedback and by using EFT like everyone else.
Too much? Too little? Let us know. How do you not ******* see that DPS is not the bloody ******* problem. For **** sake do you even look at how the ship is used and why is it OP or do you simply wing it as you go. DPS change only makes Ishtar meh for solo pvp and pve. As for fleets at some point DPS is useless you could have 300 DPS and if you have the numbers it does not matter. Ishtars problem is ******* trageting range and drone control range not having to sacrifice tank or speed. With this change all you have to do is add few more Ishtars to your fleet.This makes no sense especially considering the size of the avg. Ishtar fleet. Tengus and Machariels were hard counter to Ishtars but they could not sustain the fight because they bleed out logistic ships so fast and this is for that exact reason the targeting/control range. So with this pointless change you have achieved nothing. NOTHING.. No other ship in HAC class can combat the Ishtar at it's range/speed/sig combination and no other T3 can do it other than Tengu and even Tengu can only do it until Ishtars wipe all their logi off the field which due to targeting/control range is BLOODY ******* EASY.
- Reduce Ishtars base targeting range
- Reduce Ishtars drone control range
- - 30 CPU
- + Either small sig increase or small base velocity decrease
And that would BALANCE the Ishtar. It would remain a good SOLO PVP and PVE ship and in fleets you could now actually use few more doctrines against it. With those changes you still use the Ishtar as you do right now however you would have a hole in your Tank which means Harpies, Murder crows, Eagles, Tengus, Machs could all take you on. And if you wanted to retain the Tank you would have to come in closer and fight at closer ranges which means you could use Legions, Lokis, Proteus, Zealots even battleship doctrines against them. And this way it would depend on your tactics and FC's skills and members skills. Seriously how can you do a good job with a Tengu and then fail so hopelessly with Ishtar. Everything you just said got ignored because you lost your **** while saying it. Yes it is the application and control range that are the problems, not dps, calm down and you might get somewhere.
it's too late anyway. Rise thinks the DPS has to be nerfed so that's what he's going to do. Especially because everybody is telling him the application bonus is the problem, because now he feels like he has to prove people that he was right.
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colera deldios
293
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Posted - 2015.02.27 14:25:25 -
[57] - Quote
@Jenn aSide I don't like the Ishtar but it pisses me off when CCP keeps doing these "balances" where they make no sense. Is Ishtar Op ? Sure. Is the DPS the problem.. Hell no.
It's like hey why take a look at what wrong with the ship let's just change 1 number and see what happens. |
Altirius Saldiaro
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
300
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Posted - 2015.02.27 14:27:01 -
[58] - Quote
Make ewar that hits a ship, affect it's bonuses to its drones.
Tracking disruption, ECM, and Sensor Dampening.
Stop being lazy developers with just nerfing stats. Give us the ability to use the already in game tools of EWAR to counter drone ships.
TDs should affect the drones tracking and optimal range. ECM should prevent the drones from targeting. SDs should affect the drones targeting range. EWAR needs to carry over to the drones. |
Vulfen
Snuff Box Snuffed Out
168
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Posted - 2015.02.27 14:30:43 -
[59] - Quote
Overall i think any nerf to the ishtar is a good thing. I like this change because it does not remove them as an option but it does reduce their effectiveness nicely.
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5n4keyes
Sacred Templars DARKNESS.
104
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Posted - 2015.02.27 14:31:25 -
[60] - Quote
Damage Projection was never the real issue with the Ishtar, the Ishtar itself could have 0 damage bonus to sentries, and it would still get used just as much as it currently is.
The problem with the Ishtar, is its ability to move around quickly, and pretty much not give a crap about its sentries, drop, shoot, and stay alive. Throw gang bonus onto them, and they become pretty stupid.
What needs to happen to the Ishtar, is again another nerf to its speed, push up the sig a tiny bit more. drop the locking range slightly, and whack that drone bay, possibly drop it to 225-250m3.
The above changes would make it still viable in PVE, and still make it fairly good in small gang, but make it nicely counterable for large gang warfare. |
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