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Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
228
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Posted - 2015.03.01 00:56:45 -
[181] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Would rather have seen the ishtar lose the sentries entirely.
Baby steps.
I believe they are pairing down than simply gutting, the former being the better option.
There is such as thing as beating the dead Ishtar with the nerf bat. |
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
228
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 01:01:56 -
[182] - Quote
Tusker Crazinski wrote:lol, still hilariously op drones in general need to be much more susceptible to being shot, and not have nearly as much slots as they do. TrouserDeagle wrote:do something to push it toward armour tanking Armor ishtar is much more OP than the shield one in small gangs and solo
My personal take is that Drones (that non-piloted menace we all know and love) need to be more susceptible to interference and disruption when it is applied to the drone deploying ship. ie: tracking disruption, range and sensor dampening, etc. |
Reddish Garemoko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 03:09:09 -
[183] - Quote
I've been spanked by an Ishtar. But by continuously bowing to the desires of the community to never lose or be outgunned, no completely awesome weapon can ever be allowed. Meh. Why nerf a great piece of equipment? IMO any ship can be beaten by some fleet and no ship is invincible, so why not just re-balance pvp a different way. Let's allow ships be "overpowered", it's fun. It's the way we want it, really. But get a level playing field in different ways, maybe make it extremely expensive to run, or make it reduce skill points every time you fight it, dozens of different ways to "re-balance" in a way that allows Eve to have a horrible menace running around, some excitement with a mechanic that curbs it in some other way. It's such a bummer to invest skills and time in a plan and then have the program castrated just when you finally build/buy the damned thing. |
Drodecas
The Northerners
Northern Coalition.
8
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 04:36:14 -
[184] - Quote
In bigger engagements the proposed changes will have little effect. As In a big Ishtar blob a lot of drones are not triggering as the target is already dead. for medium sized fleets <60 Ishtars it wil.
The problem with the Ishtar is that it enganges all types of target from 0-120km, This will not change.
To make a ishtar that is less hard to counter do one of the following:
1 Remove the tracking bonus: Can now sigtank them and orbit the drones more easy.
2 Remove the optimal range: long range ships have the ability to engange them.
3 Reduce the targeting range: long range ships have the ability to engange them. Damps are more effective. |
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
230
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 05:06:06 -
[185] - Quote
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
Solution 3) A hybrid of the first two. This solution results in drone boats gaining no bonuses to upsized drones, but full bonuses to drones of their size or lower (again they would still have their large drone bandwidth):
Frigates and Destroyers only gain bonuses to light drones.
Cruisers and Battlecruisers only gain bonuses to light and medium drones.
Battleships only gain bonuses to light, medium, heavy, and sentry drones.
You have an excellent point regarding Oversized weapons. I lean towards liking solution 3 that you propose the best but with this modification:
Frigates and Destroyers only gain bonuses to light drones.
Cruisers only gain bonuses to light and medium drones.
Battlecruisers only gain bonuses to light, medium, and heavy drones.
Battleships only gain bonuses to light, medium, heavy, and sentry drones. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
863
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 05:43:32 -
[186] - Quote
The problem is that the ishtar drops its sentries AND THEN runs out of range at high speed and small sig radius.
It's the drop and run combo that makes it OP.
Reducing it's damage by 20% does nothing. If it takes 20 ishtars to alpha a target, then reducing it's damage by 20% requires.... hmm.... an additional let's just skip the math and say and additional 5 ishtars. So reducing damage by 20% has zero effect on a 50 ishtar fleet it's still going to alpha crap off the field while zipping around at 2k+m/s at a range of 120 km to the fight.
Except on a few small gang fringe cases this 'nerf' actually changes nothing. Anyone crying that this is an unfair nerf that will ruin the usefulness of the ishtar had damn well better be giggling while they say it.
I'm not sure why CCP is so against taking sentries away from all but BS hulls, but it sure would solve a pile of current issues with the game. Since the introduction of drone modules sentries have been out of balance and abused. Keep them in game, but put them as BS only.
The ONLY current problems with sentry drones is:
1) Cruiser and BC hulls are too small and too fast to be able to drop that kind of damage on the field and run out to crazy range.
2) Carriers have too many ehp and can sit there and tank too much damage while the sentries are assisted to smaller ships. In large fleets they have proven capable of deliberate player induced soul crushing lag when deployed in large numbers.
BS damage (sentry drones) is balanced on BS hulls. BS damage that quick locks (drone assist) w/ millions of ehp (carrier) it unbalanced. BS damage deployed by a hull (cruiser / BC) that is fit for pure kite is unbalance.
Stop blaming sentries. Blame the archon and the ishtars for having them.
TL/DR Quit treating the symptoms and fix the problems. |
Arthur Aihaken
X A X
4095
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 06:54:29 -
[187] - Quote
Cut sentry drone range by half.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
865
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 08:24:53 -
[188] - Quote
Drodecas wrote:In bigger engagements the proposed changes will have little effect. As In a big Ishtar blob a lot of drones are not triggering as the target is already dead. for medium sized fleets <60 Ishtars it wil.
The problem with the Ishtar is that it enganges all types of target from 0-120km, This will not change.
To make a ishtar that is less hard to counter do one of the following:
1 Remove the tracking bonus: Can now sigtank them and orbit the drones more easy.
2 Remove the optimal range: long range ships have the ability to engange them.
3 Reduce the targeting range: long range ships have the ability to engange them. Damps are more effective.
4 Get rid of the ishtar's sentries. It's the OP thing they are deploying. Removing them from non BS hulls will fix many things. |
Bogdo Lama
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 11:16:11 -
[189] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Would rather have seen the ishtar lose the sentries entirely.
Imo ishtar always had too big drone bay for that hull size. Id make it bandwith 100m3 and 125m3 bay. So would be only 4 sentry and no spare sets. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
985
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 11:42:52 -
[190] - Quote
Having kept up with tis thread I now firmly believe that the sentry range and tracking bonuses need to be switched to heavy drones. This adresses the drop and go tactics as the fit would need severe changes to get the same performance from sentries but as a heavy drone platform it would be awesome.
Rather than make many changes to an existing hull to nerf it to death I would rather change it's role bonuses slightly to make non-sentry drones much more attractive.
No doubt people would start complaining about tarball fleets of dual webbed ishtars warping to 0 on them but at least they couldn't complain about not being able to shoot back! |
Drone Plague
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 11:48:10 -
[191] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Would rather have seen the ishtar lose the sentries entirely. Drone doctrine should be scaled which would remove sentries from Ishtars altogether
i.e.
T1 Frigates = Up to Light drones - No bonus
T1 Frigates (Gallente) = Up to Light drones + Small Gallente Bonus
T2 Frigates = Up to Light drones - Bonus on Light drones only
T2 Frigates (Gallente) = Up to Light drones - Bonus on Light drones only + Small Gallente bonus
T1 Destroyers = No drones
T2 Destroyers = No drones
T1 Cruisers = Up to Medium drones - No bonus
T1 Cruisers (Gallente) = Up to Medium drones + Small Gallente Bonus
T2 Cruisers = Up to Medium drones - Bonus on Mediums
T2 Cruisers (Gallente) = Up to Medium drones - Bonus on Mediums + Small Gallente bonus
T1 BattleCruisers = Up to Heavy drones - Bonus on Lights and Mediums
T1 BattleCruisers (Gallente) = Up to Heavy drones - Bonus on Lights and Mediums + Small Gallente Bonus
T2 BattleCruisers = Up to Heavy drones - Bonus on Lights and Mediums only
T2 BattleCruisers (Gallente) = Up to Heavy drones - Bonus on Lights and Mediums only + Small Gallente bonus
T1 Battleships = Up to Sentries drones - Bonus on all up to Heavies
T1 Battleships (Gallente) = Up to Sentries drones - Bonus on all up to Heavies + Small Gallente Bonus
T2 Battleships = Up to Sentries drones - Bonus on all up to Sentries
T2 Battleships (Gallente) = Up to Sentries drones - Bonus on all up to Sentries
+ Small Gallente bonus
Carriers = Fighters and sentries Bonus on both
Supers = Fighters and Fighter Bombers Bonus on both |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
985
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 12:19:43 -
[192] - Quote
BC's should always be able to use sentried as they are designed to either have higher tank with medium guns or sacrifice tank for larger guns. No reason why this shouldn't include sentries. And why remove drones from destroyers? The algos would be completely gutted by that for a start. |
Tineoidea Asanari
Heeresversuchsanstalt
The Bastion
37
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 14:46:24 -
[193] - Quote
Easy fix for sentrys: Make them lose tracking and/or range the more far away they are from their host. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
928
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 14:53:33 -
[194] - Quote
Tineoidea Asanari wrote:Easy fix for sentrys: Make them lose tracking and/or range the more far away they are from their host.
Thats not a bad idea but likely to significantly increase server load.
I wonder if both sentries and fighters should have the "proper" tracking formula like titans where signature difference have more weighting (then give drone bs some bonus towards that) doesn't entirely fix ishtars but does reduce their sentry use to being most effective against larger targets. |
Ben Ishikela
19
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Posted - 2015.03.01 18:13:17 -
[195] - Quote
Tineoidea Asanari wrote:Easy fix for sentrys: Make them lose tracking and/or range the more far away they are from their host.
That i like.
Also take the SUM of distance from target plus distance form host to determine if the target is still in control range.
+1 to everything that sugests things like: heavyDrones20m3, ishtar100mbit and boost to heavies.
No more nerfing of percieved Overpowered Content!
It makes a game boring after too many iterations. Instead add new modules or ships that can use tactics and strategies to fight the current Meta.
|
Terra Chrall
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 20:02:51 -
[196] - Quote
Removing sentries from cruisers or entirely would change the very nature of these drone boats. It would be like removing the range bonus from an Eagle. Mobile drones, ie non-sentry, are brawlers. They have to move into range, and are vulnerable to being easily destroyed with smart bombs.
I don't do large scale fleets, but from everything I read about it seems to be a long range game these days. If you remove a ships ability to fight from range then you have drastically changed that ship. Mobile drones are a close range weapon, sentries are ranged. Doesn't matter where the ship itself is.
There are many interesting ideas about keeping sentries, as should be the case. The only other option would be some large buffs to mobile drones which would likely make them OP in PvE and smaller scale PvP.
The two things I see complained about late in this thread are the drop and run behavior and the good tracking from a stationary sentry. Some have suggested limiting the range a ship can be from their drones, this idea has some merit but it also a significant nerf to the very mobile nature of PvP.
What if Sentries were no longer stationary?
What if sentries followed their owner? Give them good speed since they would not move independently.
They keep being a ranged weapon. But the faster the owner is moving and more transversal he has the worse the sentry is going to perform.
Now you have a versatile ship with all the benefits of a drone boat, only drop and run is gone. And tracking is much more meaningful as the drones movement affects it.
Battleships often sit still so this will not affect them. Mobile ships would have to move around like other ships do in order to apply their damage most effectively. |
Tineoidea Asanari
Heeresversuchsanstalt
The Bastion
38
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 20:19:31 -
[197] - Quote
Terra Chrall wrote:What if Sentries were no longer stationary?
Then you can juste make them (or drones in general) vulernable to tractor beams. Would be hell of a fun :D |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Brave Collective
1643
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 21:38:20 -
[198] - Quote
What if sentry ceased to have incredible tracking, what if they required their owner to remain close to them (10km) to properly function?
As it stands currently, a ~17% nerf is plainly ridiculous.
Signature Tanking Best Tanking
|
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
176
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 01:02:50 -
[199] - Quote
An unpopular thought but here it is since a DEV asked for thoughts..
Nerf this, drop that, reduce something else some or all of these MAY help in PvP but any or all of the would trash the Ishtar as a PvE ship.
I have said this in many threads on this topic, remove the ability to assign drones to assist another ship.
And remove the aggressive mode.
Both of these require the Ishtar itself to stay on the battle field to actively control it's drones making it more vulnerable.
When combined with the reduced hit points and damage coming in the next release these would be the next logical step to take. |
Jack Miton
Isogen 5
4217
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 01:30:47 -
[200] - Quote
It's not enough but it's a start
Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/
Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/
|
AspiB'elt
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
17
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 07:26:09 -
[201] - Quote
Hi CCP Rise
About balancing on the ishtar.
I am not very happy about them. Because you don't correct the main problem.
I explain to you.
When you have a fleet of ishtar you have already enough alpha to kill bs. If you remove some part of the damage bonus on sentry. You still have the alpha to kill BS ( a little less dps but still enough).
Where is the problem with sentry and isthar ?
The problem are you can launch sentry and go away. With your balance you don't change the main problem. It's still possible to do that.
Pls. Make this modification and all sentry.
Sentry control range 10 km.
You can still shoot at X km (depend the type of sentry). But if the position of your ship is more then 10 km you lose the control on them.
In this case you cannot launch sentry and go away. |
Tineoidea Asanari
Heeresversuchsanstalt
The Bastion
38
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 08:07:29 -
[202] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:I have said this in many threads on this topic, remove the ability to assign drones to assist another ship.
And remove the aggressive mode.
Both of these require the Ishtar itself to stay on the battle field to actively control it's drones making it more vulnerable.
When combined with the reduced hit points and damage coming in the next release these would be the next logical step to take.
Both of these thoughts tell me you never fought with Ishtar something bigger than a rat.
Drones in fleets - or PvP in general - are passive, as you want to control who is attacked. And with the limitation of 25 drones per bunny, the usage of dronebunnys has mostly stopped at all. So 2 points you want to "remove" are points, that would have no effect at all. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Second-Dawn
656
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 10:41:38 -
[203] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Would rather have seen the ishtar lose the sentries entirely.
This, my god I am actually agreeing with baltec1 on something...
Ella's Snack bar
|
Canenald
Jump Drive Appreciation Society
Test Alliance Please Ignore
51
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 10:56:40 -
[204] - Quote
This sounded cool at first but the more I think about the sentry bonus nerf the more wrong it seems.
There's a whole class of ships called HACs to which Ishtar belongs. They are generally well balanced. Of all those ships, only the Ishtar is a problem. Why? Obviously the problem is in the weapons system it specializes in, the drones. They have versatility in damage type and range/dps ratio. They apply damage well with tracking bonuses and are very resistant to ewar compared to turrets and missile launchers. Their tracking is not influenced by ship's movement, allowing sig/speed tanking without ruining their damage application.
Now, sentries are the best drones because they don't have to travel around to apply their damage. Nerfing Ishtar's sentry bonus seems like a crude way to solve the problem. It's like curing the symptom. You're introducing an exception to a well balanced system just to nerf a weapon system which has clear advantages over the others. This can't lead to good things.
Rather than nerfing the bonus for specific type of drones, can't you do something about the bonus in general? Gurista faction ships have been rebalanced in a good way, giving bonus to only the drones of specific size. How about doing something similar for non-pirate t1 and t2 cruisers?
My idea is to make non-pirate drone cruisers give drone bonuses only to drones belonging to the same faction. Vexor and Ishtar would only give bonus to Hobgoblins, Hammerheads, Ogres and Gardes. Arbitrator would only give bonuses to Acolytes, Infitrators, Praetors and Curators. This would leave Vexors, VNIs and Ishtars as good brawling cruisers while also not nerfing their PVE role as high-dps, sig/speed tanking ships that can solo most things that can be soloed in PVE.
I wouldn't apply this to smaller drone boats because their limited drone capacity makes them not part of the sentry problem. Also, don't touch BCs and BSs because they already have limited PVP applications. |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION
The Obsidian Front
621
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 13:02:33 -
[205] - Quote
This fixes nothing and only compounds the problem of "moar dudes = win".
Or the counter to an Ishtar fleet is still Ishtar +1 |
Samillian
Angry Mustellid
The Periphery
718
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 13:41:19 -
[206] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:This will achieve the goal of making Ishtars less useful, but unfortunately does nothing to make other ships useful. Range and speed are overpowered in EVE, and only doctrines with damage projection and mobility work.
In other words, people will just use the next platform that outranges others while remaining mobile, leaving whole shipclasses gathering dust in hangars.
Sums up the problem, until this is addressed nothing will really change.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10008
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 13:48:05 -
[207] - Quote
Don't have much to say about this except this question:
Why is it this company (that is known for heavy handed nerfing of everything in sight on the slightest whim) spending all this time (soon to be measured in YEARS) tip-toeing around Ishtars and Sentry Drones? |
Julius Foederatus
Spiritus Draconis
250
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 15:15:30 -
[208] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Don't have much to say about this except this question:
Why is it this company (that is known for heavy handed nerfing of everything in sight on the slightest whim) spending all this time (soon to be measured in YEARS) tip-toeing around Ishtars and Sentry Drones?
Probably because they changed drone bonuses specifically because drone ships were ******* useless in fleet and even in most small gang pvp situations, and they don't want to completely go back to those days. Incidentally, it's a sentiment I share.
I think if you just did a range and tracking nerf across the board on sentries (except Gardes), so that they couldn't really apply dps past 100km, except maybe with Wardens which have **** tracking, then you'd see less of a problem with people finding other ships to use in pvp situations. The problem with the Ishtar is it can hit out at too many different ranges. Wardens with 2x omnis hit out to 120km opt and almost 70km falloff. Those are numbers you can't get outside of the very top tier of BS sniper weapons, and those have absolutely abysmal tracking compared with the Warden's 0.024 on the Ishtar. One or both of these stats needs to be dialed down to be more or less in line with other weapons systems, although I do believe the drones should retain something of an edge since they're immobile and require a lot of risk to pick up, or extra drones in the hold to adapt to the battlefield. |
Aiyshimin
Fistful of Finns
Triumvirate.
421
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 19:12:11 -
[209] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Don't have much to say about this except this question:
Why is it this company (that is known for heavy handed nerfing of everything in sight on the slightest whim) spending all this time (soon to be measured in YEARS) tip-toeing around Ishtars and Sentry Drones?
Probably because Ishtars really aren't that broken. |
Liner Xiandra
Sparks Inc
360
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 19:19:24 -
[210] - Quote
Chiming in to say that nerfing damage does not address the problems that CCP Rise laid out in the devblog, namely:
CCP Rise's devblog wrote:
The problem: Ishtars are too good. They are squashing out diversity in several environments because of their excellent damage projection and solid survivability
Whereas
baltec1 wrote:Would rather have seen the ishtar lose the sentries entirely.
This would at least address this. |
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