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CCP Rise C C P C C P Alliance 4915	Posted - 2015.02.27 10:51:01 - [1] - Quote In Scylla we are deploying a set of high-impact balance changes. This thread is for discussing a proposed changed to the Ishtar. We are planning to split it's drone damage bonus in to two bonuses so that we can lower the bonus to sentry damage. It would look like this: Old bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage New bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Light, Medium and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage This change is being made to encourage diversity in ship choice across EVE. The Ishtar has proven strong enough with its current bonus set to dominate in many environments and we want to make sure there is plenty of room for ship choice other than the Ishtar. We came to this decision using a combination of internal metrics, community feedback and by using EFT like everyone else. Too much? Too little? Let us know. @ccp_rise

baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 15245	Posted - 2015.02.27 10:55:53 - [2] - Quote Would rather have seen the ishtar lose the sentries entirely. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Cassius Invictus Thou shalt not kill A Nest of Vipers 127	Posted - 2015.02.27 11:02:16 - [3] - Quote To be honst I think that the dps itself was not the problem but rather the ability to deploy sentries and GTFO. Anyway lets just see what impact this change has on isthars online.
Kailen Thorn Common Sense Ltd Nulli Secunda 16	Posted - 2015.02.27 11:03:31 - [4] - Quote Will this not just hurt the small scale gangs employing sentries as their meta? If a blob has sentries deployed, the damage Nerf is not going to matter as they will use their numbers to kill the target anyway. Maybe slow down capital deaths by a few seconds Is this a knee jerk reaction to a graph? The damage is massive because the wide spread use of massive. Make them less good in another way and that overall damage will drop as someone else takes the FOTM
Capqu Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 998	Posted - 2015.02.27 11:06:58 - [5] - Quote 17% damage reduction doesn't seem like it will fix the massive imbalance in damage done when the drake got gutted them main thing targeted was application, and i think you should look at that for the ishtar too its simply too good at all different kinds of ranges bouncers have crazy range and tracking at that range gardes have battleship damage and cruiser tracking pve wise wasps have frigate tracking and battleship damage and you can be afk and have warpcore stabs fit so there really isnt any reason to use any other ship [other than a vexor navy because its the same thing but cheaper LOL] honestly 17% damage off the top of the sentry part seems irrelevant in on a ship which had battleship damage and yet its main imbalance is was flexibility why can it fit and run 100mn AB with no fitting mods btw? it has fitting/cap regen for guns yet does not need to fit them, i think addressing this would help edit: im not suggesting gutting it like fozzie did to the drake, which was clearly terrible and resulted in a useless ship [and weapon sysem] but i do think harsher treatment is necessary here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
Swanky nutjob The Scope Gallente Federation 15	Posted - 2015.02.27 11:07:16 - [6] - Quote Why did you not nerf it's tracking? The damage it's done is exponentially higher than everything else but not just because it can deal plenty of damage with a BS sized weapon system, but because it can hit too well with them against a majority of targets. Reducing sentry tracking would have answered both problems. Also, please do something about it's fitting, the ship is far to easy to fit.
Damjan Fox Fox Industries and Exploration 105	Posted - 2015.02.27 11:11:01 - [7] - Quote Quote: Would rather have seen the ishtar lose the sentries entirely. Was about to post the same. The damage is not the problem, but the damage projection over crazy ranges. Removing the sentry bonus entirely, would be my suggestion, too. (And mabye descrease the fitting capabilites a little)
Gilbaron Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda 1639	Posted - 2015.02.27 11:12:51 - [8] - Quote drone bay is still too big Build your empire ! Rent Space in Feythabolis and Omist Contact me for details :)
Ab'del Abu Atlantis Ascendant 214	Posted - 2015.02.27 11:18:30 - [9] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Would rather have seen the ishtar lose the sentries entirely. This
Aladar Dangerface Absolutely Certain 146	Posted - 2015.02.27 11:18:45 - [10] - Quote Projection is the issue, step in the right direcion but not far enough I don't need twitter. I'm already following you.
Aiyshimin Fistful of Finns Triumvirate. 404	Posted - 2015.02.27 11:19:09 - [11] - Quote This will achieve the goal of making Ishtars less useful, but unfortunately does nothing to make other ships useful. Range and speed are overpowered in EVE, and only doctrines with damage projection and mobility work. In other words, people will just use the next platform that outranges others while remaining mobile, leaving whole shipclasses gathering dust in hangars.
Anthar Thebess 891	Posted - 2015.02.27 11:28:31 - [12] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Old bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage New bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Light, Medium and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage Good direction. But i think something more can be done. Old bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage New bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Light, Medium and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 10% bonus to Garde hitpoints and damage [/quote] So no bonus to Wardens / Curators / Bouncers at all. If we move to specific type bonus we can have much bigger possibilities for specific hulls , and make amarr ships have additional bonus to EM drones, Caldari to Kinetic , and minmatar to Bouncers. This could put life to many not used ships. Ishtars are OP , but also provide good hull for smaller alliances in terms of structure grinding. Garde range , or should i say lack of it , will keep isthars viable dps platforms for structure grinding while removing almost all what made them broken now. Capital Remote AID Rebalance Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
Corben Arctus Future Corps Sleeper Social Club 26	Posted - 2015.02.27 11:31:26 - [13] - Quote Aiyshimin wrote: This will achieve the goal of making Ishtars less useful, but unfortunately does nothing to make other ships useful. Range and speed are overpowered in EVE, and only doctrines with damage projection and mobility work. In other words, people will just use the next platform that outranges others while remaining mobile, leaving whole shipclasses gathering dust in hangars. This.
Luscius Uta 128	Posted - 2015.02.27 11:41:03 - [14] - Quote Sentry and heavy drones are often wieved as Battleship-sized "weapons" and ability to field them as a reason to Ishtar's imbalance. However, 125 m^3 drone bandwidth and 10 %/level bonus to drone damage and HP enough cannot be that reason, as it's also present on plenty of other (non-unbalanced) ships, including the old Ishtar. It's the new sentry specific bonus that broke Ishtar. So I would revert the Ishtar to its pre-HAC rebalance version which wasn't broken but was still a great, dedicated droneboat, meaning that bandwidth and damage should stay to be the same but sentry and heavy-specific bonuses should go away. Few things (compared to its old version) I would still change though - give it a bit more CPU as I remember it being terribly low and replace the drone bay bonus (which should be implemented to the hull itself) with a drone microwarpdrive velocity (5% per HAC skill level) bonus. Otherwise everyone will just switch to VNIs. I'm not fat, I'm just over-tanked!
Arla Sarain 319	Posted - 2015.02.27 11:57:46 - [15] - Quote Aiyshimin wrote: This will achieve the goal of making Ishtars less useful, but unfortunately does nothing to make other ships useful. Range and speed are overpowered in EVE, and only doctrines with damage projection and mobility work. In other words, people will just use the next platform that outranges others while remaining mobile, leaving whole shipclasses gathering dust in hangars. This again.
Swiftstrike1 Swiftstrike Incorporated 869	Posted - 2015.02.27 11:58:49 - [16] - Quote Good start! Targeting, Sensors and ECM Overhaul
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 983	Posted - 2015.02.27 12:04:58 - [17] - Quote It seems that this won't change much in that a 17% reduction in dps mean that the blobs will simply bring 20% more ishtars just to be sure. Perhaps drop the damage and hitpoints bonus from sentries entirely and instead apply it as a velocity and tracking bonus to heavies. This would put the emphasis on using mobile drones that makes sense given the mobility of the hull and give more of a reason to use heavies since they would be nearer to mediums in speed and tracking but the hull would need to be at greater risk to make use of them.
Ix Method META Directorate Talos Coalition 420	Posted - 2015.02.27 12:06:24 - [18] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Would rather have seen the ishtar lose the sentries entirely. Seriously. Wouldn't swopping Ishtar/Eos to Heavies/Sentries pretty much fire this problem into the sun? Travelling at the speed of love.
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 1006	Posted - 2015.02.27 12:08:02 - [19] - Quote do something to push it toward armour tanking
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 758	Posted - 2015.02.27 12:10:24 - [20] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: do something to push it toward armour tanking A mid to a low would do that nicely.
Rroff Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 906	Posted - 2015.02.27 12:11:54 - [21] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: This change is being made to encourage diversity in ship choice across EVE. The Ishtar has proven strong enough with its current bonus set to dominate in many environments and we want to make sure there is plenty of room for ship choice other than the Ishtar. We came to this decision using a combination of internal metrics, community feedback and by using EFT like everyone else. Too much? Too little? Let us know. Personally I detest ishtars and everything they stand for in the current meta - its an analog of campers in an FPS game to me... however to really encourage diversity would mean making some of the other HACs a bit more interesting - I look at the vagabond, muninn, etc. and see little reason to actually fly them in todays eve whether the ishtar got deleted tomorrow or not.
Jonhy Tse Three Stars Association 0	Posted - 2015.02.27 12:16:49 - [22] - Quote Hi, just want to know if this idea was already suggested : Instead of trying to nerf Ishtar directly, why not making sentry drones a warpable item like a can or wreck? It can give interesting counter against Ishtar, can realy affect the choice of taking a set of sentry or a set of heavy. No difference for PvE players and make the sentry a powerful but dangerous choice of drone for PvP Thanks to stop me if I'm saying something stupid.
Alexhandr Shkarov Swamphole Inc. 8	Posted - 2015.02.27 12:20:26 - [23] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: New bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Light, Medium and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage I'd much rather see the 5% to sentry bonuses get adjusted to something else, perhaps a bonus to heavy drone microwarpdrive speed? Makes them a little more aggressive in engaging and switching?
Rroff Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 906	Posted - 2015.02.27 12:21:24 - [24] - Quote Jonhy Tse wrote: Hi, just want to know if this idea was already suggested : Instead of trying to nerf Ishtar directly, why not making sentry drones a warpable item like a can or wreck? It can give interesting counter against Ishtar, can realy affect the choice of taking a set of sentry or a set of heavy. No difference for PvE players and make the sentry a powerful but dangerous choice of drone for PvP Thanks to stop me if I'm saying something stupid. Its an interesting idea, I certainly wouldn't dismiss the potential there though a common use of ishtars + sentries is to drop them then MWD away.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 758	Posted - 2015.02.27 12:26:37 - [25] - Quote Rroff wrote: Jonhy Tse wrote: Hi, just want to know if this idea was already suggested : Instead of trying to nerf Ishtar directly, why not making sentry drones a warpable item like a can or wreck? It can give interesting counter against Ishtar, can realy affect the choice of taking a set of sentry or a set of heavy. No difference for PvE players and make the sentry a powerful but dangerous choice of drone for PvP Thanks to stop me if I'm saying something stupid. Its an interesting idea, I certainly wouldn't dismiss the potential there though a common use of ishtars + sentries is to drop them then MWD away. It's less common more guaranteed the minute the enemy is on field. It is the entire premise of the doctrines. Use the ishtar movement to pull the enemy into optimal range of the sentries. The ONLY time ishtars sit near their drones is if you know the enemy can only muster bombers as you pound the structure so you can rescoop quickly. I guess it would make them more vulnerable to a couple of disco ships warping in to destroy the cloud, but that's easy to mitigate by staggered deployment.
Alexhandr Shkarov Swamphole Inc. 8	Posted - 2015.02.27 12:34:53 - [26] - Quote Jonhy Tse wrote: Hi, just want to know if this idea was already suggested : Instead of trying to nerf Ishtar directly, why not making sentry drones a warpable item like a can or wreck? It can give interesting counter against Ishtar, can realy affect the choice of taking a set of sentry or a set of heavy. No difference for PvE players and make the sentry a powerful but dangerous choice of drone for PvP Thanks to stop me if I'm saying something stupid. It would work in major fleetfights, though at that point if they are clumped all you'd need is a bunch of buffer tanked smartbomb Rokhs. Blow the drones out of the sky, suddenly the ship loses all of it's damage potential. Not sure if I agree with that per s+¬.
Rivr Luzade Coreli Corporation The Kadeshi 1250	Posted - 2015.02.27 12:35:48 - [27] - Quote In my opinion, you should leave the damage as it is and simply remove the tracking and range bonus for sentries in Ishtars. In other words, apply an Armageddon like bonus structure to Sentries on Ishtars. This leaves the Ishtar intact for combat against things like structures and capitals (maybe even BS if webbed properly), but removes the viability of Sentry Ishtars against all other mobile ships. Station Tab :: Agent Shuffling :: Double Standing Gain
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2736	Posted - 2015.02.27 12:36:06 - [28] - Quote Ishtars need to lose complete Sentry drone support bonuses, also move a mid to a low slot to encourage armor tanking.
TinkerHell Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory. 138	Posted - 2015.02.27 12:36:29 - [29] - Quote I personally would rather see sentrys removed from all ships below BS size. However i am not a fan of straight up nerfs to ships either. I thought something along the lines of giving it an extra 2.5% damage for light, med, heavy drones per level to compensate for its loss of sentrys drones and switching the the sentry optimal range bonus to 5% gun dmg bonus to ALL sized hybrid guns could make it a more interesting close ranged ship.
Crysantos Callahan Control-Space DARKNESS. 30	Posted - 2015.02.27 12:37:36 - [30] - Quote I think you should do more about the Ishtar. Do you really think a 10% -> 5% nerf is a reason or incentive to use different ships? No, why should people. The Ishtar is so popular because it can deploy multiple flights of drones, use a lot of utility and tank mods - while it has an awesome damage projection over huge range. Now the damage got nerfed a bit, the other things are still true. If CCP wants to keep it this way, fine (although I'd like to see a tracking/range nerf like most other people). But at least nerf the drone bay down to 175-225 m3. This way the Ishtar is useful as it is right now, has its perks but also the downside of remote dps that can be killed off. I'd still add in a smaller CPU nerf to make fittings a bit tighter or take of the drone control range bonus. Get it more in line with the other HACs, this baby nerf won't change the meta or shift the balance of the HACs. Ishtars are still as useful as before.
Khan Wrenth Hedion University Amarr Empire 112	Posted - 2015.02.27 12:46:19 - [31] - Quote Sentry drone provide far too much versatility that infringes upon the roles of other ships and weapon systems. I know this isn't the most helpful suggestion in the game, especially since it has been said a million times before, but just go ahead and remove sentries entirely. They don't belong in the game. Drones in general are in a nice place of strengths and weaknesses. But some of those weaknesses, like travel time and destructibility, lose meaning when you can fire across 100km. All other drones have to move to their target, putting them at risk for webbing and being hit by brawling/short range ships. Sentry drones hit out at long range, farther out than many ships can target, and farther out than most can apply meaningful damage to them. Can Ishtars/sentries be defeated? Absolutely 100%. It's been discussed to death hundreds of times on the forums that I'm aware of. But sentries are heavily lopsided in all of their upsides (immune to EWAR, no cap, no ammo, long range, selectable damage, automatic aggression, great alpha strike, assignable, etc). Why would people go Eagle or Zealot for sniping, when you can do better with sentries? Sentries by themselves obsolete two other HACs just by existing. All this said, I use Ishtars and sentries myself. I own two Ishtars and use them in lowsec and highsec. So I'd be heavily effected if you removed sentries. But I also fly the Zealot and Eagle, and I honestly can say I prefer flying them over the Ishtar because turrets are more fun to use. Maybe I don't have the same level of experience with HACs that other pilots here might, but I do see a problem when one HAC routinely out-performs two HACs in both of the latter's damage profiles. Any time I run into trouble, Ishtars are my run-to vehicle because they just do everything thanks to sentries and drone mechanics. I know, this is the part where everyone now joins in on a doggy pile of flaming me. Isn't the first time, won't be the last time. HTFU.-á Adapt or die.-á Beware the falcon punch.
Anthar Thebess 895	Posted - 2015.02.27 12:52:30 - [32] - Quote No sentry bonus is also good thing in exchange for heavy drone bonus buff? Simple smartbombs can kill them. Capital Remote AID Rebalance Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 11938	Posted - 2015.02.27 12:52:34 - [33] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Too much? Too little? Let us know. Too little. The dps they can project at sentry range still exceeds that of any other AHAC, while still inexplicably having the fitting to strap on a 100mn afterburner. This is a good start, nothing more. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs.
Arthur Aihaken X A X 4083	Posted - 2015.02.27 12:59:04 - [34] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Too much? Too little? Let us know. Sentry drones should ideally be limited to Battlecruisers, Battleships and Carriers. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Speedkermit Damo Demonic Retribution 392	Posted - 2015.02.27 13:05:23 - [35] - Quote I fear reducing their DPS will only make people bring even more Ishtars to compensate. The nerfs should be to their damage application/projection Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
War Kitten Panda McLegion 5881	Posted - 2015.02.27 13:11:57 - [36] - Quote Make sentries 30m^3 instead of 25. Problem solved. I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all.
Mr Floydy Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 269	Posted - 2015.02.27 13:17:33 - [37] - Quote It's a start. I'd certainly not object to Ishtars having a harder job fielding Sentries, whether that be through them being larger or just blocked entirely.
Altrue Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective 1626	Posted - 2015.02.27 13:26:55 - [38] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Would rather have seen the ishtar lose the sentries entirely. This, it doesn't make sense to have a BS weapon on a HAC. Signature Tanking Best Tanking
Grytok KL0NKRIEGER 6	Posted - 2015.02.27 13:29:23 - [39] - Quote The thing that made the Ishtar king of the hill for fleet-warfare isn't the ships boni, it's the Drone Damage Amps. Remove the Drone Damage Amp module and leave the Ishtars boni as they are.
Gustav Mannfred Summer of Mumuit 105	Posted - 2015.02.27 13:31:44 - [40] - Quote Why not the following: decrease the volume of Heavy drones to 20m3 and decrease the dronebandwith of all cruiser sized ships to 100m3, that means, cruisers still can use 5 heavys, that can easly be destroyed and need some travel time while they lose 20% damage when using sentrys. i'm REALY miss the old stuff.-á https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=24183
Jack Hayson Atztech Inc. Ixtab. 106	Posted - 2015.02.27 13:41:06 - [41] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Would rather have seen the ishtar lose the sentries entirely. This. Get rid of sentries on cruisers. They are battleship weapons. Reducing the damage by a few percent doesn't solve the underlying problem. It only means that the blob needs to be a few percent bigger to alpha stuff. Or just get rid of sentries entirely. Stuff like sentry carriers are no less broken. They essentially turn the carrier into a super powerful gun boat.
War Kitten Panda McLegion 5882	Posted - 2015.02.27 13:43:58 - [42] - Quote Gustav Mannfred wrote: Why not the following: decrease the volume of Heavy drones to 20m3 and decrease the dronebandwith of all cruiser sized ships to 100m3, that means, cruisers still can use 5 heavys, that can easly be destroyed and need some travel time while they lose 20% damage when using sentrys. This is probably better than my idea of increasing sentry bandwidth. Go with this. I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all.
Turbular Knight Failed Diplomacy 10	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:01:45 - [43] - Quote Dear CCP can I please trade in all my sentry drone skills? I really don't have any need for them anylonger. LONG LIVE HEAVY ATTACK DRONES
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 1342	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:01:47 - [44] - Quote Simply removing bonus damage isn't enough. Something has to be done to affect an ishtar's damage application, engagement flexibility, excessive grid, or any combination of the three. The changes, as is, are countered simply by bringing a few more people. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 983	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:02:36 - [45] - Quote War Kitten wrote: Gustav Mannfred wrote: Why not the following: decrease the volume of Heavy drones to 20m3 and decrease the dronebandwith of all cruiser sized ships to 100m3, that means, cruisers still can use 5 heavys, that can easly be destroyed and need some travel time while they lose 20% damage when using sentrys. This is probably better than my idea of increasing sentry bandwidth. Go with this. Blobs would simply bring 20% more ships hence my proposal to switch the sentry bonus to a heavies bonus. The heavies have to be more appealing then the sentries for them to be chosen otherwise blobs will simply compensate any dps nerf with more ships in the blob
colera deldios 293	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:04:56 - [46] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: In Scylla we are deploying a set of high-impact balance changes. This thread is for discussing a proposed changed to the Ishtar. We are planning to split it's drone damage bonus in to two bonuses so that we can lower the bonus to sentry damage. It would look like this: Old bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage New bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Light, Medium and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage This change is being made to encourage diversity in ship choice across EVE. The Ishtar has proven strong enough with its current bonus set to dominate in many environments and we want to make sure there is plenty of room for ship choice other than the Ishtar. We came to this decision using a combination of internal metrics, community feedback and by using EFT like everyone else. Too much? Too little? Let us know. How do you not ***** see that DPS is not the bloody *** problem. For sake do you even look at how the ship is used and why is it OP or do you simply wing it as you go. DPS change only makes Ishtar meh for solo pvp and pve. As for fleets at some point DPS is useless you could have 300 DPS and if you have the numbers it does not matter. Ishtars problem is ***** trageting range and drone control range not having to sacrifice tank or speed. With this change all you have to do is add few more Ishtars to your fleet. This makes no sense especially considering the size of the avg. Ishtar fleet. Tengus and Machariels were hard counter to Ishtars but they could not sustain the fight because they bleed out logistic ships so fast and this is for that exact reason the targeting/control range. So with this pointless change you have achieved nothing. NOTHING.. No other ship in HAC class can combat the Ishtar at it's range/speed/sig combination and no other T3 can do it other than Tengu and even Tengu can only do it until Ishtars wipe all their logi off the field which due to targeting/control range is BLOODY ***** EASY. Reduce Ishtars base targeting range Reduce Ishtars drone control range - 30 CPU + Either small sig increase or small base velocity decrease And that would BALANCE the Ishtar. It would remain a good SOLO PVP and PVE ship and in fleets you could now actually use few more doctrines against it. With those changes you still use the Ishtar as you do right now however you would have a hole in your Tank which means Harpies, Murder crows, Eagles, Tengus, Machs could all take you on. And if you wanted to retain the Tank you would have to come in closer and fight at closer ranges which means you could use Legions, Lokis, Proteus, Zealots even battleship doctrines against them. And this way it would depend on your tactics and FC's skills and members skills. Seriously how can you do a good job with a Tengu and then fail so hopelessly with Ishtar.**
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 9924	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:08:23 - [47] - Quote colera deldios wrote: CCP Rise wrote: In Scylla we are deploying a set of high-impact balance changes. This thread is for discussing a proposed changed to the Ishtar. We are planning to split it's drone damage bonus in to two bonuses so that we can lower the bonus to sentry damage. It would look like this: Old bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage New bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Light, Medium and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage This change is being made to encourage diversity in ship choice across EVE. The Ishtar has proven strong enough with its current bonus set to dominate in many environments and we want to make sure there is plenty of room for ship choice other than the Ishtar. We came to this decision using a combination of internal metrics, community feedback and by using EFT like everyone else. Too much? Too little? Let us know. How do you not ***** see that DPS is not the bloody *** problem. For sake do you even look at how the ship is used and why is it OP or do you simply wing it as you go. DPS change only makes Ishtar meh for solo pvp and pve. As for fleets at some point DPS is useless you could have 300 DPS and if you have the numbers it does not matter. Ishtars problem is ***** trageting range and drone control range not having to sacrifice tank or speed. With this change all you have to do is add few more Ishtars to your fleet. This makes no sense especially considering the size of the avg. Ishtar fleet. Tengus and Machariels were hard counter to Ishtars but they could not sustain the fight because they bleed out logistic ships so fast and this is for that exact reason the targeting/control range. So with this pointless change you have achieved nothing. NOTHING.. No other ship in HAC class can combat the Ishtar at it's range/speed/sig combination and no other T3 can do it other than Tengu and even Tengu can only do it until Ishtars wipe all their logi off the field which due to targeting/control range is BLOODY ***** EASY. Reduce Ishtars base targeting range Reduce Ishtars drone control range - 30 CPU + Either small sig increase or small base velocity decrease And that would BALANCE the Ishtar. It would remain a good SOLO PVP and PVE ship and in fleets you could now actually use few more doctrines against it. With those changes you still use the Ishtar as you do right now however you would have a hole in your Tank which means Harpies, Murder crows, Eagles, Tengus, Machs could all take you on. And if you wanted to retain the Tank you would have to come in closer and fight at closer ranges which means you could use Legions, Lokis, Proteus, Zealots even battleship doctrines against them. And this way it would depend on your tactics and FC's skills and members skills. Seriously how can you do a good job with a Tengu and then fail so hopelessly with Ishtar. Everything you just said got ignored because you lost your ** while saying it. Yes it is the application and control range that are the problems, not dps, calm down and you might get somewhere.
EvilweaselFinance BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation 408	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:09:30 - [48] - Quote well this wasn't the 5 m/s nerf to its speed i was expecting but it's still clearly a "terrified of making too big a change that there's no chance of it going far enough" change (like the last ishtar nerf). at least it's a little bigger than the last one.
Zosius The Scope Gallente Federation 64	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:16:10 - [49] - Quote Why don't you make that sentries out of 20km range from the ship get disconnected and be done with it? Leave dps alone. http://cloakybastard.blogspot.com
ShadowBlazie The Drunken Empire Fatal Ascension 0	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:17:57 - [50] - Quote Ishtars even using heavies and sentries doesn't make a lot of sense. Every other had uses cruiser class weapons, but the ishtar gets battleship size drones? Why not give them bonuses to medium and lights, without the massive hp boost the Gila uses?
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1098	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:19:38 - [51] - Quote New bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Light, Medium and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage i would prefer New bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Heavy Drone damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone damage but there are other nerfs it needs, having same dronebay as the domi and geddon instead of having the same as the Eos is just wrong. 125/250 bay 300 max makes more sense for a cruiser size hull and stops tons of high HP sentry drops combined with the HP bonus removal which i think should be a separate bonus entirely detached from the damage bonus as it is in some frigates. i would also suggest removing some turrets aswell too limit dps potential. perhaps also reduce the inbuilt drone range bonus, say 70km, might make people have too do more for the same result. it also raises the question will the other sub battleships get the same 5% sentry damage bonus ? Eos, Myrmidon, VNI,vexor (should be only mediums really), prophecy? Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone/fighter assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 1344	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:20:11 - [52] - Quote Zosius wrote: Why don't you make that sentries out of 20km range from the ship get disconnected and be done with it? Leave dps alone. Actually, this is not a bad idea. I'd rephrase it as make drone link augmentors ineffective on sentries. Drone control range seems misapplied towards stationary drones. A reduction to the effect of (Advanced) Drone Avionics to sentries would also help. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
rsantos Mosquito Squadron Mordus Angels 30	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:21:29 - [53] - Quote I have to say sentry isthars are way to good... this should help with that... BUT. One of the problem with isthar and drone boots in general is that you don't compromise your fittings, by picking different damage application types/ranges, and the Isthar has way too much fitting room. So you can fit a full tank, multiple defensive neutralizers and put out battleship DPS from 100Km. Cap regen is way to good, you can almost perma mwd. Even with heavy drones Isthar as no match in its class (my ratting Isthar putts out 830 DPS and I can easy sit at 50-60 km and kite everything and still pull my drones before they are popped by rats). Look back at what you did with the Hurricane and to some extent the Cynabal. Neft the its fittings into the ground! We all sick of Isthars anyway. Tip: All ships with drone bonus should have 2-3 highs tops and one turret slot!
Ivory Kantenu Applied Anarchy SpaceMonkey's Alliance 73	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:24:48 - [54] - Quote As a part of an Alliance that has been using Ishtars in the meta game for quite awhile now, I can honestly say that the damage nerf is still not far enough to stop this ship from being too much. The fact of the matter is this, the only true tactic to this ship is drop and scoot. As long as you are far outside the enemies optimal range, you have little to nothing to fear outside of poor FC moves and potentially bombers. The bombs issue is easily avoided, as all you have to do is spread drones a good deal out and only end up losing a small handful per run, instead of the entire cloud. Shooting drones 1 by 1 is still not even close to effective, and is ultimately never a go-to. The fact is, even with the changes to Bouncers compounding this, range and tracking on sentry drones is still too high on a cruiser class ship. You're getting Battleship DPS and application on a ship that moves marginally faster in a cap stable environment, and can more easily control a field. Simply put, is it the elephant in the room with a giant sore thumb that sticks out, but this elephant does 1500m/s and hits harder than a speeding train. It's time to fix it. -Remove the Range Bonus. This ship should not be able to sit further out than a Battleship and apply greater DPS in such a fashion. -Remove one mid. Don't add a low. Removing one mid to the low will only make it so people will just move a Tracking Link to the Low instead, keeping the shield buffer alive. Don't give that option. -Reduce the Bay, or balance sentries to take more room and BW, and adjust other ship bays to compensate. [i]Learn the basics of Wormhole Selling: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=101693&find=unread[/i]
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1098	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:24:58 - [55] - Quote i would also consider a stronger drawback for droneboats not needing highs for dps so maybe -2 slots instead of the current -1, BUT this needs too be applied too gurista ships aswell , they are so OP atm, 2 uber drones also can't be justified, the gila and rattlesnake do obscene amount of damage they need nerfing. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone/fighter assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
Blobskillz McBlub Manson Family Advent of Fate 24	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:25:15 - [56] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: colera deldios wrote: CCP Rise wrote: In Scylla we are deploying a set of high-impact balance changes. This thread is for discussing a proposed changed to the Ishtar. We are planning to split it's drone damage bonus in to two bonuses so that we can lower the bonus to sentry damage. It would look like this: Old bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage New bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Light, Medium and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage This change is being made to encourage diversity in ship choice across EVE. The Ishtar has proven strong enough with its current bonus set to dominate in many environments and we want to make sure there is plenty of room for ship choice other than the Ishtar. We came to this decision using a combination of internal metrics, community feedback and by using EFT like everyone else. Too much? Too little? Let us know. How do you not ***** see that DPS is not the bloody *** problem. For sake do you even look at how the ship is used and why is it OP or do you simply wing it as you go. DPS change only makes Ishtar meh for solo pvp and pve. As for fleets at some point DPS is useless you could have 300 DPS and if you have the numbers it does not matter. Ishtars problem is ***** trageting range and drone control range not having to sacrifice tank or speed. With this change all you have to do is add few more Ishtars to your fleet. This makes no sense especially considering the size of the avg. Ishtar fleet. Tengus and Machariels were hard counter to Ishtars but they could not sustain the fight because they bleed out logistic ships so fast and this is for that exact reason the targeting/control range. So with this pointless change you have achieved nothing. NOTHING.. No other ship in HAC class can combat the Ishtar at it's range/speed/sig combination and no other T3 can do it other than Tengu and even Tengu can only do it until Ishtars wipe all their logi off the field which due to targeting/control range is BLOODY ***** EASY. Reduce Ishtars base targeting range Reduce Ishtars drone control range - 30 CPU + Either small sig increase or small base velocity decrease And that would BALANCE the Ishtar. It would remain a good SOLO PVP and PVE ship and in fleets you could now actually use few more doctrines against it. With those changes you still use the Ishtar as you do right now however you would have a hole in your Tank which means Harpies, Murder crows, Eagles, Tengus, Machs could all take you on. And if you wanted to retain the Tank you would have to come in closer and fight at closer ranges which means you could use Legions, Lokis, Proteus, Zealots even battleship doctrines against them. And this way it would depend on your tactics and FC's skills and members skills. Seriously how can you do a good job with a Tengu and then fail so hopelessly with Ishtar. Everything you just said got ignored because you lost your ** while saying it. Yes it is the application and control range that are the problems, not dps, calm down and you might get somewhere. it's too late anyway. Rise thinks the DPS has to be nerfed so that's what he's going to do. Especially because everybody is telling him the application bonus is the problem, because now he feels like he has to prove people that he was right.
colera deldios 293	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:25:25 - [57] - Quote @Jenn aSide I don't like the Ishtar but it pisses me off when CCP keeps doing these "balances" where they make no sense. Is Ishtar Op ? Sure. Is the DPS the problem.. Hell no. It's like hey why take a look at what wrong with the ship let's just change 1 number and see what happens.
Altirius Saldiaro Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 300	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:27:01 - [58] - Quote Make ewar that hits a ship, affect it's bonuses to its drones. Tracking disruption, ECM, and Sensor Dampening. Stop being lazy developers with just nerfing stats. Give us the ability to use the already in game tools of EWAR to counter drone ships. TDs should affect the drones tracking and optimal range. ECM should prevent the drones from targeting. SDs should affect the drones targeting range. EWAR needs to carry over to the drones.
Vulfen Snuff Box Snuffed Out 168	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:30:43 - [59] - Quote Overall i think any nerf to the ishtar is a good thing. I like this change because it does not remove them as an option but it does reduce their effectiveness nicely.
5n4keyes Sacred Templars DARKNESS. 104	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:31:25 - [60] - Quote Damage Projection was never the real issue with the Ishtar, the Ishtar itself could have 0 damage bonus to sentries, and it would still get used just as much as it currently is. The problem with the Ishtar, is its ability to move around quickly, and pretty much not give a crap about its sentries, drop, shoot, and stay alive. Throw gang bonus onto them, and they become pretty stupid. What needs to happen to the Ishtar, is again another nerf to its speed, push up the sig a tiny bit more. drop the locking range slightly, and whack that drone bay, possibly drop it to 225-250m3. The above changes would make it still viable in PVE, and still make it fairly good in small gang, but make it nicely counterable for large gang warfare.
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 9926	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:31:48 - [61] - Quote colera deldios wrote: @Jenn aSide I don't like the Ishtar but it pisses me off when CCP keeps doing these "balances" where they make no sense. Is Ishtar Op ? Sure. Is the DPS the problem.. Hell no. It's like hey why take a look at what wrong with the ship let's just change 1 number and see what happens. Oh I know. we're forum wrestling with CCP over just that same kind of issue in the Fighter Delegation thread Just sayin that what you posted is spot on, but CCP is made up of people and ticking them off doesn't help. It's enough that you are right about it, don't let it get to you too much.
War Kitten Panda McLegion 5886	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:33:17 - [62] - Quote Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: War Kitten wrote: Gustav Mannfred wrote: Why not the following: decrease the volume of Heavy drones to 20m3 and decrease the dronebandwith of all cruiser sized ships to 100m3, that means, cruisers still can use 5 heavys, that can easly be destroyed and need some travel time while they lose 20% damage when using sentrys. This is probably better than my idea of increasing sentry bandwidth. Go with this. Blobs would simply bring 20% more ships hence my proposal to switch the sentry bonus to a heavies bonus. The heavies have to be more appealing then the sentries for them to be chosen otherwise blobs will simply compensate any dps nerf with more ships in the blob That's a bit ridiculous. Where do you conjure up 20% more fleet members? Any and every alliance I've flown with flies with the numbers they have that want to form up. Nobody holds 20% more pilots in reserve just in case the nerf bat strikes a ship doctrine. I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all.
rsantos Mosquito Squadron Mordus Angels 30	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:34:06 - [63] - Quote colera deldios wrote: @Jenn aSide I don't like the Ishtar but it pisses me off when CCP keeps doing these "balances" where they make no sense. Is Ishtar Op ? Sure. Is the DPS the problem.. Hell no. It's like hey why take a look at what wrong with the ship let's just change 1 number and see what happens. The DPS IS a problem! Not many crusiers put out 600-700 dps much less at the insane ranges drone boats have.
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 11941	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:35:52 - [64] - Quote rsantos wrote: colera deldios wrote: @Jenn aSide I don't like the Ishtar but it pisses me off when CCP keeps doing these "balances" where they make no sense. Is Ishtar Op ? Sure. Is the DPS the problem.. Hell no. It's like hey why take a look at what wrong with the ship let's just change 1 number and see what happens. The DPS IS a problem! Not many crusiers put out 600-700 dps much less at the insane ranges drone boats have. I have to sort of echo this. The problem is not the dps or the projection of the Ishtar. It's the fact that it can do both of those things better than any other ship in it's class, without sacrificing anything in fitting or options. That had to be addressed, and should have been a long time ago. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs.
Blobskillz McBlub Manson Family Advent of Fate 25	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:37:43 - [65] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: rsantos wrote: colera deldios wrote: @Jenn aSide I don't like the Ishtar but it pisses me off when CCP keeps doing these "balances" where they make no sense. Is Ishtar Op ? Sure. Is the DPS the problem.. Hell no. It's like hey why take a look at what wrong with the ship let's just change 1 number and see what happens. The DPS IS a problem! Not many crusiers put out 600-700 dps much less at the insane ranges drone boats have. I have to sort of echo this. The problem is not the dps or the projection of the Ishtar. It's the fact that it can do both of those things better than any other ship in it's class, without sacrificing anything in fitting or options. That had to be addressed, and should have been a long time ago. this change does not adress that. 100 man Ishtar blobs will still oneshot everything and outrun everything
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2736	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:39:27 - [66] - Quote Probably a bit odd but how about this? Slot layout 4H/4M/6L Gallente Cruiser Bonuses +10% Drone Damage and HP per level +5% Drone MWD Velocity Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses +20% Medium Scout Drone Damage and HP +7.5% Armor Repair Amount per level Drone Bandwidth 50Mbps and 200m3 Drone Bay
Capqu Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 1007	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:40:19 - [67] - Quote Querns wrote: Zosius wrote: Why don't you make that sentries out of 20km range from the ship get disconnected and be done with it? Leave dps alone. Actually, this is not a bad idea. I'd rephrase it as make drone link augmentors ineffective on sentries. Drone control range seems misapplied towards stationary drones. A reduction to the effect of (Advanced) Drone Avionics to sentries would also help. drone control range doesn't affect how far the drones can be from your ship drone control range actually means what range your SHIP [not drones] must be from the target to engage the drones the only condition on drones is that they are within 250km [activation proximity] of your ship don't believe me? try getting an ishtar and doing the following Sentries ---- 100km ---- target ---- 50km ---- Ishtar the sentries will fire on the target without issue as long as you have 50km drone control range even though you are 150km from the sentries [way out of drone control range] terribly worded i know, but that's how drone control range works and once engaged, you can go anywhere on grid as long as you remain within 250km [activation proximity] of your drones and they will not stop firing perhaps a reduction in activation proximity is in order? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 9926	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:40:43 - [68] - Quote rsantos wrote: colera deldios wrote: @Jenn aSide I don't like the Ishtar but it pisses me off when CCP keeps doing these "balances" where they make no sense. Is Ishtar Op ? Sure. Is the DPS the problem.. Hell no. It's like hey why take a look at what wrong with the ship let's just change 1 number and see what happens. The DPS IS a problem! Not many crusiers put out 600-700 dps much less at the insane ranges drone boats have. DPS matters not one bit if you can't apply it. My Dread can has DPS in the thousands, for some reason I can't get it to do real well in level 1 missions lol. There are multiple problems with Ishtars, DPS isn't even the biggest one.
Blobskillz McBlub Manson Family Advent of Fate 25	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:41:28 - [69] - Quote Omnathious Deninard wrote: Probably a bit odd but how about this? Slot layout 4H/4M/6L Gallente Cruiser Bonuses +10% Drone Damage and HP per level +5% Drone MWD Velocity Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses +20% Medium Scout Drone Damage and HP +7.5% Armor Repair Amount per level Drone Bandwidth 50Mbps and 200m3 Drone Bay that would give you super OP medium drones. also I dont like that you are basically taking what makes the gila unique and slap it on another ship
rsantos Mosquito Squadron Mordus Angels 30	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:41:55 - [70] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: rsantos wrote: colera deldios wrote: @Jenn aSide I don't like the Ishtar but it pisses me off when CCP keeps doing these "balances" where they make no sense. Is Ishtar Op ? Sure. Is the DPS the problem.. Hell no. It's like hey why take a look at what wrong with the ship let's just change 1 number and see what happens. The DPS IS a problem! Not many crusiers put out 600-700 dps much less at the insane ranges drone boats have. I have to sort of echo this. The problem is not the dps or the projection of the Ishtar. It's the fact that it can do both of those things better than any other ship in it's class, without sacrificing anything in fitting or options. That had to be addressed, and should have been a long time ago. You can fit a blaster crusier to match the isthar dps... but what will be your range with it? Whats the DPS on a rail, beam or arty crusier or even battleship? Nothing matches sentries... Nerf Then!
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 9926	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:42:26 - [71] - Quote Omnathious Deninard wrote: Probably a bit odd but how about this? Slot layout 4H/4M/6L Gallente Cruiser Bonuses +10% Drone Damage and HP per level +5% Drone MWD Velocity Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses +20% Medium Scout Drone Damage and HP +7.5% Armor Repair Amount per level Drone Bandwidth 50Mbps and 200m3 Drone Bay RIP any reason to ever use a Gila again.
Cataphrac Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 3	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:43:34 - [72] - Quote As already pointed here: - No cruiser hull should be allowed to use sentries since they already can use heavy drones. Only BC, BS and Carrier hulls should use it; My 2 cents. Obs.: Raise sentries bandwidth from 25 to 30/35. Just to don't turn Ishtar Online in Eos Online.
War Kitten Panda McLegion 5886	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:44:11 - [73] - Quote Blobskillz McBlub wrote: this change does not adress that. 100 man Ishtar blobs will still oneshot everything and outrun everything There are better ways to drop 100 ships on someone and one-shot alpha them than using a ship that has to lock the target twice before firing. Your issue here is the 100 man fleet to start with. I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all.
Faltzs Thundercats The Initiative. 18	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:46:31 - [74] - Quote The damage reduction is meh, ishtars will remain the most flexible hac in game. 1) because its vast spread of bonus to drone types heavies/sentries. 2) its ease of fitting both armour or sheild tanks for decent ehp. I would rather see it loose all sentry bonus in exchange for a remote rep bonus at this point than leave it a can do anything with battleship esc weapons.
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2736	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:47:55 - [75] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Omnathious Deninard wrote: Probably a bit odd but how about this? Slot layout 4H/4M/6L Gallente Cruiser Bonuses +10% Drone Damage and HP per level +5% Drone MWD Velocity Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses +20% Medium Scout Drone Damage and HP +7.5% Armor Repair Amount per level Drone Bandwidth 50Mbps and 200m3 Drone Bay RIP any reason to ever use a Gila again. Blobskillz McBlub wrote: that would give you super OP medium drones. also I dont like that you are basically taking what makes the gila unique and slap it on another ship yup, the 20% is too much, if it were reduced to 10% the gila would still be stronger and use less drones, where the ishtar would need to use 5 medium drones to match the gila. EDIT: After looking at numbers again, the Gila gets a bonus to missile damage, where the Ishtar barely has the powergrid to fit an armor tank and any medium sized guns, so it would need a larger bonus to medium drone damage.
Blobskillz McBlub Manson Family Advent of Fate 25	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:52:49 - [76] - Quote War Kitten wrote: Blobskillz McBlub wrote: this change does not adress that. 100 man Ishtar blobs will still oneshot everything and outrun everything There are better ways to drop 100 ships on someone and one-shot alpha them than using a ship that has to lock the target twice before firing. Your issue here is the 100 man fleet to start with. there are ways to deal with slower big fleets. But you always run into trouble when you are trying to deal with big ishtar fleets. You cant outrun them, you cant outrange them, they got ridiculous base lock range and can apply their DPS over ranges where even battleships struggle to deal that much damage. In our recent fights with FCON we were lucky that we had Pizza on our side to help out with bomb runs otherwise we would have had almost no chance to win because they were simply able to field more Ishtars then we could reasonably deal with.
Ines Tegator Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc. 566	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:55:59 - [77] - Quote Solving the wrong problem, IMO. The design of drones is more complex then mere DPS, and so is the problem of Ishtars Online. I refer to my post in the other sentry thread: Ines Tegator wrote: Bouncer nerf misses the point. So does the announced Ishtar nerf of reducing the damage bonus. Tracking is the problem. Sentries are a BS sized weapon systems. They should not be able to track frigates and cruisers at close range. Sub-BS hulls should not get tracking bonuses to them. With their native high tracking, PLUS the tracking bonus on many ship hulls, sentry drones can apply their BS sized DPS to medium sized or smaller ships, and do it without need for webs or target painters. This should not be possible. Drones already offer the flexibility of being able to swap weapon class at will. No other weapon system can do this; it's part of their design and their key advantage. By carrying a stock of Light drones in their hold, even a BS can engage frigate sized targets. However, by changing your weapon class, you also change your DPS class. A Dominix using Light Drones is doing a fraction of it's DPS potential; this is a worthwhile tradeoff to hit small targets that would be able to speed tank you otherwise. Sentries don't need to make that tradeoff; that's why they are OP. Putting tracking bonuses on drone boats was a mistake that should never have been made; it sabotages the entire design philosophy of drones. Without the tracking bonuses, sentries are no more powerful then equivalent BS guns. This is how it should be. Be able to down-class at will to engage a smaller target is already a huge advantage. For reference, Garde II's can easily hit cruisers at 10-15km. That's huge for a gun that can also hit out to 40km optimals (50+ with falloff). For comparison, an Apocalypse with 8 Mega Pulse Laser II's and tracking mods gets similar performance - and the Apoc was SPECIFICALLY INTENDED to be a tracking/application battleship platform. Sentries do it by nature, on all platforms. Something is not adding up here. Hitting the Ishtar's drone bay size is also called for - Ishtars can carry a full 3 flights of sentries, so they can drop sentries and run to gain the advantage of tracking targets from a distance. The VNI, in comparison, can carry one flight plus either a couple replacements, or a backup squad of light and mediums. This directly addresses the "drop and run" problem by making it a viable strategy to shoot the drones down. Overhaul Dscan! Make your own rules - Noobs to Null / Casual Vets Corp
War Kitten Panda McLegion 5888	Posted - 2015.02.27 15:00:40 - [78] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: rsantos wrote: colera deldios wrote: @Jenn aSide I don't like the Ishtar but it pisses me off when CCP keeps doing these "balances" where they make no sense. Is Ishtar Op ? Sure. Is the DPS the problem.. Hell no. It's like hey why take a look at what wrong with the ship let's just change 1 number and see what happens. The DPS IS a problem! Not many crusiers put out 600-700 dps much less at the insane ranges drone boats have. I have to sort of echo this. The problem is not the dps or the projection of the Ishtar. It's the fact that it can do both of those things better than any other ship in it's class, without sacrificing anything in fitting or options. That had to be addressed, and should have been a long time ago. I agree, the problem is both DPS and application/projection. Both need addressed. To be fully honest, I expected a better nerf to sentries themselves in the drone balance pass. Ishtars with sentries were in a pretty good place before they ever introduced the drone damage and tracking mods. Since that time, the ishtar hull got better (faster, tankier, smaller sig w/ MWD) and the sentries got better with drone mods. Part of the problem is the Ishtar drone bonuses, and the other part is sentries themselves. I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all.
Ines Tegator Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc. 566	Posted - 2015.02.27 15:02:50 - [79] - Quote War Kitten wrote: Part of the problem is the Ishtar drone bonuses, and the other part is sentries themselves. This cannot be said enough. Overhaul Dscan! Make your own rules - Noobs to Null / Casual Vets Corp
stoicfaux 5478	Posted - 2015.02.27 15:05:07 - [80] - Quote To fix damage projection, create Light Sentry Drones (medium size drones) with range that's more in line with cruiser sized weapons. Regular Sentry Drones become Heavy Sentry Drones and are usable only on BS, Carrier, etc. sized ships. WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
stoicfaux 5478	Posted - 2015.02.27 15:07:15 - [81] - Quote Or just remove Sentry Drones from the Ishtar and instead give it a "MJD Drone Launcher" that allows the Ishtar to MJD heavy drones onto a target. Give the MJD Drone Launcher a one minute cooldown and/or reduce the Ishtar's bay size to prevent heavy drones from being treated as "ammo." WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
Space Captain Austrene Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 3	Posted - 2015.02.27 15:08:36 - [82] - Quote The problem with ishtars and sentries is two part: Their battleship dps platform and the fact that they can get in close, deploy drones and kite out to max drone control range. What needs to happen is that with the further the ishtar is from their sentries, the less damage they do. ****, call it triangulation. If the range from the ishtar is greater than 1.5 the combined optimal/fall of their sentries there is a dps loss
Nate rayward Hail To The King 13 COILS 2	Posted - 2015.02.27 15:08:55 - [83] - Quote I feel the nerf will do nothing to the big fleets that you are attempting to stop. In my opinion this nerf will only hurt small gang/ solo pvp and pve and it was my understanding that you guys were promoting small gang fights by adding the jump fatigue, so why go and make a good ship crap for people who want to do the small stuff. Personally i feel like this does nothing to "separate" it in its own class its just makes it worse at everything. Try not to cripple the small guys here like everybody else has stated those fleets will just bring more ships and make up for it. I seen somebody put on here earlier that you should be able to warp to sentries and that seems viable as well as reducing the range you can be away from them. I dont want to see tracking of sentries nerf'd as once again i think that will cripple the pve perks of the ship. Keep in mind you still need to keep this ship more viable than the VNI as it is half the price. I also think it is very odd that with a "balance" you simply make the ship worthless. On the 07 episode one of the guys laughed at how bad the drake and hurricane was hit with the nerf bat.... really if you know the ships are that bad why leave them like that? Why spend so much time nerfing the good ships and not bumping up the crap ones. I think Hacs are supposed to be a stand out class do to their cost and skill required to fly them. If you continue to nerf the hacs out of their use people will just stop flying hacs and move on to something else and you will have a class of ships nobody buys.
colera deldios 294	Posted - 2015.02.27 15:09:24 - [84] - Quote What I find disturbing is that wast majority of people have been discussing the problem with Ishtar for 3 months now both on forums and on reddit and 99.9% of the people agree that it's not the DPS but the targeting range/drone control range. And all this happened on threads CCP clearly observed and yet they announce a nerf to the Ishtar in an attribute that makes 0 sense. Reduce base targeting range Remove drone control range bonus Reduce CPU about -30 so you can't get away as easy with drone mods Slightly decrease base velocity or increase signature radius And you are done nothing else needed. At the moment and even after this nerf only 2 ships that can stand against Ishtar is Tengu and Eagle (BS class can't except Machs but all you do then is get under the guns). It's not rational that you need 650m ship to take on a 250m and that is only for a limited time.. Seriously the Ishtar needs to be balanced as noted above so that it remains viable but that you can actually use it's class ships to take it on. It should depend on pilots/fc skills and situation to resolve to victory. With those changes you have to suffer same problems as every other class. It does not make sense that Zealot or Eagle or Munin can't be used against the Ishtar. Just because Ishtars DPS will now be 500+ DPS it does not mean it wont **** both it's entire class as well as dominate T3 class as well as BS and above...
Hairpins Blueprint CBC Interstellar Fidelas Constans 128	Posted - 2015.02.27 15:09:26 - [85] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Would rather have seen the ishtar lose the sentries entirely. Remove Sentry bonuses from the hull and add some thing else, +5% armour per lvl or bring back hybrid guns to it. 10% faloff of hybrid guns and 5% to damage. or 5% to speed and 5% to agility per lvl. weekening damage bonus is just silly, better swap it for something else and move the ship to difrent meta than just nerfing it.
Bronson Hughes The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration 1433	Posted - 2015.02.27 15:09:34 - [86] - Quote The drone bay is still far too large. It's much more in-line with Amarr drone ships, not Gallente ones. Drop the drone bay down to 225-250, and killing the Ishtar's drones becomes a much more viable option. My Many Misadventures Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook. I seek to create content, not become content.
stoicfaux 5478	Posted - 2015.02.27 15:10:24 - [87] - Quote On a side note, I've been away awhile, does the WiS store finally sell Asbestos Fire Suits? If so, we should pool our funds and buy one for CCP Rise. WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
stoicfaux 5478	Posted - 2015.02.27 15:17:53 - [88] - Quote colera deldios wrote: What I find disturbing is that wast majority of people have been discussing the problem with Ishtar for 3 months now both on forums and on reddit and 99.9% of the people agree that it's not the DPS but the targeting range/drone control range. And all this happened on threads CCP clearly observed and yet they announce a nerf to the Ishtar in an attribute that makes 0 sense. It's a management technique. If the peons cannot agree on a solution, then the manager offers(threatens) to implement something so bad/painful that the horrified peons hurriedly reach/agree_on a common solution that is imminently less painful. OTOH, this is CCP Rise, so we may wind up with a Rapid Sentry Drone launcher for the Ishtar. WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 579	Posted - 2015.02.27 15:18:33 - [89] - Quote Alexhandr Shkarov wrote: I'd much rather see the 5% to sentry bonuses get adjusted to something else, perhaps a bonus to heavy drone microwarpdrive speed? Makes them a little more aggressive in engaging and switching? No, silly. We already have that and she is called Eos and her smaller sibleing is called Navy Vexor. signature
Ines Tegator Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc. 566	Posted - 2015.02.27 15:25:27 - [90] - Quote Just for reference - has ANYONE agreed that DPS is the problem? Anyone? At all? Cmon CCP. Notice that much at least. Overhaul Dscan! Make your own rules - Noobs to Null / Casual Vets Corp
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 15273	Posted - 2015.02.27 15:28:08 - [91] - Quote stoicfaux wrote: Or just remove Sentry Drones from the Ishtar and instead give it a "MJD Drone Launcher" that allows the Ishtar to MJD heavy drones onto a target. Give the MJD Drone Launcher a one minute cooldown and/or reduce the Ishtar's bay size to prevent heavy drones from being treated as "ammo." A ***** drone cannon and you don't ask for the ability for it to fire corpses. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship**
Caleb Seremshur The Atomic Fallout Kids 485	Posted - 2015.02.27 15:32:22 - [92] - Quote Harvey James wrote: i would also consider a stronger drawback for droneboats not needing highs for dps so maybe -2 slots instead of the current -1, BUT this needs too be applied too gurista ships aswell , they are so OP atm, 2 uber drones also can't be justified, the gila and rattlesnake do obscene amount of damage they need nerfing. The solution to guristas ships is to web/TD/ecm one of the drones or if you're veing kited by the mothership scram the drone and use AB to keep it outside 6km (well outside optimal). Not every day you can cut 30% of another ships dps out that easily. Against a conventional drone boat you will have bigger problems. Compounded even more if the mothership uses fw drones as those have literally double the base hp of t2 drones meaning that a gila has 10 effective drones worth of hp on the field. And that's kind of one way to deal with gurista ships. Faction warfare pilot and solo/small gang PVP advocate
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1605	Posted - 2015.02.27 15:41:53 - [93] - Quote baltec1 wrote: stoicfaux wrote: Or just remove Sentry Drones from the Ishtar and instead give it a "MJD Drone Launcher" that allows the Ishtar to MJD heavy drones onto a target. Give the MJD Drone Launcher a one minute cooldown and/or reduce the Ishtar's bay size to prevent heavy drones from being treated as "ammo." A ******* drone cannon and you don't ask for the ability for it to fire corpses. One problem at a time my good man.
Ben Ishikela 17	Posted - 2015.02.27 15:47:13 - [94] - Quote Here is another suggestion that would work but is more work xD No more nerfing of percieved Overpowered Content! It makes a game boring after too many iterations. Instead add new modules or ships that can use tactics and strategies to fight the current Meta.
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2736	Posted - 2015.02.27 15:49:33 - [95] - Quote Ben Ishikela wrote: Here is another suggestion that would work but is more work xD The more i think about it, the more i too like the reduction of heavy drone bandwidth needs and size, along with ship bandwidth adjustments.
Ponder Stuff Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory. 26	Posted - 2015.02.27 15:49:53 - [96] - Quote I think ishtars became the ship of choice for simpletons and blobs for two reasons, firstly i assume pressing F is easier than F1, its slightly closer to the user so even less effort with much less information on the key for those tiny goonswarm brains. Secondly they have way to much control range and can often just be untouchable applying close range dps at 120km+. Nerf the hell out of it, in this instance the nerf bat is not effective enough so go get a nerf club and beat the snot out of it. I do like the idea of heavy drone bonuses so at least the drones are at risk even if the control range has to stay at 2 million au. Glad Rise is on this not Fozzie, we stand a chance of getting a reasonable result and not unmitigated idiocy.
Soldarius Kosher Nostra The 99 Percent 1142	Posted - 2015.02.27 16:01:30 - [97] - Quote Imagine if you could fit 5 425mm Railgun IIs on an Eagle with 3x MFS IIs and no tracking mods. Now give it +25% optimal range, +25% tracking, and +50% damage at Caldari Cruiser 5 and HAC 5. This would give you 380*1.5=570 dps, with a 45+30km optimal+falloff (using CN Antimatter) and .01625 rad/s tracking. With Spike, it would have 330dps at 162+30km optimal+falloff and .00375 rad/s tracking. Does that sound balanced on a medium ship? In comparison, the Ishtar has 702 dps at 37.5+18km with .045 rad/s tracking using Garde IIs. It gets 620 dps at 65.6+48km with .024 Rad/s tracking using Bouncers. 250mm Railgun II on an Eagle with CN Antimatter loaded and no tracking mods have .026 rad/s tracking. With the proposed change, the damage output of Garde IIs will be 585 dps, and the dps of Bouncers will be 516dps. Ishtars will still have above average HAC dps and superior tracking at excellent range, all on a highly mobile platform. So I can only conclude that these changes will not really change anything. Ishtars and Tengus will still be the meta until the actual problems are addressed; in this case, Sentry Drones having excellent tracking at battleship engagement ranges when fielded by an Ishtar. I think it might be better to simply differentiate sentry drone tracking more. By spreading out the variance in tracking across the sentry drone line, a pilto would have give up that awesome range to get the better tracking. Right now and after the proposed change, Ishtars simply have better tracking at all ranges than any ship that can fit a comparable weapon system. I'm even going to go out on a limb and say that the current meta is worse than the Drake meta ever was. Every single one of the current FotM comps has better damage and application than HML Drakes did, all but one of them has a better tank, they all have better velocity, and all of them have a much lower sigRad. http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Buhhdust Princess Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships. 9094	Posted - 2015.02.27 16:02:55 - [98] - Quote Asi and im sure many others have posted. The problem is the ishtars mobility, its great that it has a sig rad reduction, but when it does 2700ms orbit who cares! That combined with its 130km range is uttery ridiculous Pls nerf mobility of ishtar..
Arthur Aihaken X A X 4086	Posted - 2015.02.27 16:03:41 - [99] - Quote Why not just leave the drone bonus on the Ishtar as is and reduce the bandwidth to 100 Mbit? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Alexandrea Palmtomo Fellowship Of Lost Souls Rebel Alliance of New Eden 0	Posted - 2015.02.27 16:08:21 - [100] - Quote These changes without you also fixing bombs/bombers and doing something about how the warp speed changes made using battleships and battlecruisers terrible won't do anything to change the game from the current ishtars/tengus meta. Everyone is sick of flying these ships if you would just make the changes needed to make other doctrines viable things would become more diverse.
Bolur Freir Rubella Solaris Test Alliance Please Ignore 15	Posted - 2015.02.27 16:21:12 - [101] - Quote The issue with Ishtars isn't the pure DPS they can do, though that is probably a bit high for a cruiser hull, it's the application of that DPS. Reducing or replacing the 5% bonus to sentry optimal and tracking would do more to bring the Ishtar into the same scale as the other HACs than a straight DPS nerf.
beakerax Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 39	Posted - 2015.02.27 16:28:04 - [102] - Quote Require that Ishtars be in bastion to deploy sentries, but do not release a bastion module for Ishtars.
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2736	Posted - 2015.02.27 16:40:51 - [103] - Quote While i like the idea(s) of removing sentry drones form the Ishtar, and/or having heavy drone use 20Mbps and 20m3 size then reducing the Ishtar to 100Mbps bandwidth. It creates an interesting problem of what to do with the Heavy Assault Cruiser Skill, we have; +5KM drone control range and +5% Sentry Drone Optimal and Tracking The +5KM drone control range affects all drones it is kinda useless for mobile combat drones as very few would send there combat drones out 85KM, it is just a death sentence for them. Edit: Also, please make it an armor ship like all other Gallente ships.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1099	Posted - 2015.02.27 16:49:43 - [104] - Quote removing a midslot might be a good idea too nerf the dps kitey shield configs and perhaps some shield HP removed aswell Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone/fighter assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
Metal Icarus Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad. 732	Posted - 2015.02.27 16:59:03 - [105] - Quote Remove the battleship class weaponry from the tech 2 cruiser. Give bonuses to medium weaponry. Because no other tech 2 cruiser can field battleship class weaponry. If you want battleship class weapons on ship that is smaller than a battleship, put them on a battlecruiser, like the talos. Where the trade-off for battleship weaponry is tank. The ishtar makes no concessions, and thus is chosen for errything which lead to the LOL-Ishtard graph. Adjusting the numbers will NOT fix the problem and may run into the problem of over-nerfing.
Rovinia Exotic Dancers Union SONS of BANE 352	Posted - 2015.02.27 17:08:11 - [106] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: New bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Light, Medium and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage Just scrap the second bonus and put in something else like 5% Drone speed. Sentrys still possible, but unbonused.
Andrea Keuvo Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 304	Posted - 2015.02.27 17:20:26 - [107] - Quote Metal Icarus wrote: Remove the battleship class weaponry from the tech 2 cruiser. Give bonuses to medium weaponry. Because no other tech 2 cruiser can field battleship class weaponry. If you want battleship class weapons on ship that is smaller than a battleship, put them on a battlecruiser, like the talos. Where the trade-off for battleship weaponry is tank. The ishtar makes no concessions, and thus is chosen for errything which lead to the LOL-Ishtard graph. Adjusting the numbers will NOT fix the problem and may run into the problem of over-nerfing. I don't really understand where this misinformation that heavy/sentry drones are "battleship" class weapons comes from. Last time I checked battleships with drone bonuses can also equip large guns/launchers where the Ishtar cannot. The only thing needed to deploy a heavy/sentry drone is 25m drone bandwidth and a 25m3 drone bay.
Metal Icarus Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad. 732	Posted - 2015.02.27 17:28:40 - [108] - Quote Andrea Keuvo wrote: Metal Icarus wrote: Remove the battleship class weaponry from the tech 2 cruiser. Give bonuses to medium weaponry. Because no other tech 2 cruiser can field battleship class weaponry. If you want battleship class weapons on ship that is smaller than a battleship, put them on a battlecruiser, like the talos. Where the trade-off for battleship weaponry is tank. The ishtar makes no concessions, and thus is chosen for errything which lead to the LOL-Ishtard graph. Adjusting the numbers will NOT fix the problem and may run into the problem of over-nerfing. I don't really understand where this misinformation that heavy/sentry drones are "battleship" class weapons comes from. Last time I checked battleships with drone bonuses can also equip large guns/launchers where the Ishtar cannot. The only thing needed to deploy a heavy/sentry drone is 25m drone bandwidth and a 25m3 drone bay. You're right, and also I forgot about the stratios. Still, more concessions need to be made. Damage bonus reduction to sentries is not enough IMO.
Grytok KL0NKRIEGER 9	Posted - 2015.02.27 17:35:28 - [109] - Quote beakerax wrote: Require that Ishtars be in bastion to deploy sentries, but do not release a bastion module for Ishtars. This would work and make sense actually. Sentries are a stationary weapon-system, and so should be the ship deploying them. But we don't even need to go that far and make the Ishtar immobile, it would be enough allready to make the use of propulsion modules impossible aslong as you've got sentries deployed.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1099	Posted - 2015.02.27 17:39:01 - [110] - Quote Rovinia wrote: CCP Rise wrote: New bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Light, Medium and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage Just scrap the second bonus and put in something else like 5% Drone speed. Sentrys still possible, but unbonused. doing that just makes it a worse gila or a more expensive VNI, it needs the sentries otherwise people won't use it. its more the ability too replace high HP sentries over and over in high dps kitey shield fits, if you address these points they might have more success, and -2 slots for all droneboats would help give stronger drawbacks too not needing highs for dps, would also like too see race specific bonuses too drones, so ishtar gets gallente drone bonuses only, forcing gardes would certainly reduce their range. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone/fighter assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1099	Posted - 2015.02.27 17:40:37 - [111] - Quote Grytok wrote: beakerax wrote: Require that Ishtars be in bastion to deploy sentries, but do not release a bastion module for Ishtars. This would work and make sense actually. Sentries are a stationary weapon-system, and so should be the ship deploying them. But we don't even need to go that far and make the Ishtar immobile, it would be enough allready to make the use of propulsion modules impossible aslong as you've got sentries deployed. But I'd still remove the Drone Damage Amps in addition, as they're the real problem imho, not just for the Ishtar, but for other drone-ships aswell. Drone Damage Amps make drones way too powerful. remove drone damage amps would put droneboats back where they were before that , which is mostly unused Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone/fighter assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
Grytok KL0NKRIEGER 9	Posted - 2015.02.27 17:48:32 - [112] - Quote Harvey James wrote: Grytok wrote: beakerax wrote: Require that Ishtars be in bastion to deploy sentries, but do not release a bastion module for Ishtars. This would work and make sense actually. Sentries are a stationary weapon-system, and so should be the ship deploying them. But we don't even need to go that far and make the Ishtar immobile, it would be enough allready to make the use of propulsion modules impossible aslong as you've got sentries deployed. But I'd still remove the Drone Damage Amps in addition, as they're the real problem imho, not just for the Ishtar, but for other drone-ships aswell. Drone Damage Amps make drones way too powerful. remove drone damage amps would put droneboats back where they were before that , which is mostly unused I used Ishtars for aslong as I could fly them, long before there was any drone modules and rigs available for them. The same applies to the Dominix and the Ishkur. Actually I've never flown anything else than droneboats for PvE, including doing all my LvL 4 missionrunning in an Ishtar since I can fly it. Drone Damage Amps aren't needed to make droneboats effective. All they do is make them overpowered.
colera deldios 296	Posted - 2015.02.27 18:05:48 - [113] - Quote I hope everyone has a good weekend. Except your CCP Rise.
Catherine Laartii Imperium Technologies Evictus. 483	Posted - 2015.02.27 18:09:03 - [114] - Quote The bottom line with sentries is that they need to do less dps than heavy drones. Sentries are by their nature a RANGED weapon system, so in accordance with how virtually every other weapon system in the game is balanced, they should do less dps than their 'close-range' counterpart, which are the slow and lumbering heavies. The argument for this however tends to be shoved aside since people point to the garde as a 'close-range' weapon. Please. They're all in the same class, and compared to how far normal drones like mediums or heavy attack drones shoot out, they're significantly longer. A decent route to go from a balance standpoint would be to simply decrease their RoF to so the paper dps ends up being a good bit less than heavy attack drones.
colera deldios 296	Posted - 2015.02.27 18:14:14 - [115] - Quote Catherine Laartii wrote: The bottom line with sentries is that they need to do less dps than heavy drones. Sentries are by their nature a RANGED weapon system, so in accordance with how virtually every other weapon system in the game is balanced, they should do less dps than their 'close-range' counterpart, which are the slow and lumbering heavies. The argument for this however tends to be shoved aside since people point to the garde as a 'close-range' weapon. Please. They're all in the same class, and compared to how far normal drones like mediums or heavy attack drones shoot out, they're significantly longer. A decent route to go from a balance standpoint would be to simply decrease their RoF to so the paper dps ends up being a good bit less than heavy attack drones. Did you just start playing today ?
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1100	Posted - 2015.02.27 18:16:54 - [116] - Quote not a bad idea too reduce sentry drone RoF, easier on the server aswell as making them more alpha less dps based and would make them less powerful. so long as no extra damage is added ofc. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone/fighter assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
Catherine Laartii Imperium Technologies Evictus. 483	Posted - 2015.02.27 18:22:30 - [117] - Quote colera deldios wrote: Catherine Laartii wrote: The bottom line with sentries is that they need to do less dps than heavy drones. Sentries are by their nature a RANGED weapon system, so in accordance with how virtually every other weapon system in the game is balanced, they should do less dps than their 'close-range' counterpart, which are the slow and lumbering heavies. The argument for this however tends to be shoved aside since people point to the garde as a 'close-range' weapon. Please. They're all in the same class, and compared to how far normal drones like mediums or heavy attack drones shoot out, they're significantly longer. A decent route to go from a balance standpoint would be to simply decrease their RoF to so the paper dps ends up being a good bit less than heavy attack drones. Did you just start playing today ? Cute. They need to do a lot less dps; arty works well because it has a high alpha but low overall dps. I think a lot of people would be happier to a sentry nerf that increased their alpha but lowered their paper dps.
Sbrodor Oscura Simmetria Yulai Federation 39	Posted - 2015.02.27 18:26:22 - [118] - Quote with the new 12 sec bomb the shi-ishtar are almost immune to bomb run, we did several time in fight and the speed of this ship is too high to allow a 12 sec bomb wing to explode.
Nienna Leralonde Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.02.27 19:19:01 - [119] - Quote "The Ishtar has proven strong enough with its current bonus...." no sir,it only proves numbers are stronger.drake/heavy missiles nerf,never forget,never forgive.
Rusty Boon xX-Crusader-Xx Tactical Narcotics Team 0	Posted - 2015.02.27 19:25:34 - [120] - Quote Damjan Fox wrote: Quote: Would rather have seen the ishtar lose the sentries entirely. Was about to post the same. The damage is not the problem, but the damage projection over crazy ranges. Removing the sentry bonus entirely, would be my suggestion, too. (And mabye descrease the fitting capabilites a little) Agreed with fully, the ability for a cruiser sized hull to be able to run sentries is ridiculous. Sentries, as well as Heavies, were meant for Battleships originally.
Immortal Chrono Pimpin Anime Masters Verge of Collapse 124	Posted - 2015.02.27 19:26:11 - [121] - Quote So afk ratting ishtars dont get a nerf but ded/pvp fits do? CCP Rise turning eve into afk botter dreamland. Good to know you support the use of bots.
Admiral Whatever DeepSpace Manufacturers DeepSpace. 0	Posted - 2015.02.27 19:43:06 - [122] - Quote Immortal Chrono Pimpin wrote: So afk ratting ishtars dont get a nerf but ded/pvp fits do? CCP Rise turning eve into afk botter dreamland. Good to know you support the use of bots. Typical Anime Masters post. Trash corp, TRASH opinions.
Baali Tekitsu AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 676	Posted - 2015.02.27 19:47:38 - [123] - Quote Admiral Whatever wrote: Immortal Chrono Pimpin wrote: So afk ratting ishtars dont get a nerf but ded/pvp fits do? CCP Rise turning eve into afk botter dreamland. Good to know you support the use of bots. Typical Anime Masters post. Trash corp, TRASH opinions. Typical alt poast, no opinion, no relevance, no value. Look @ ur likes look at his))))) RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1605	Posted - 2015.02.27 19:56:07 - [124] - Quote Baali Tekitsu wrote: Admiral Whatever wrote: Immortal Chrono Pimpin wrote: So afk ratting ishtars dont get a nerf but ded/pvp fits do? CCP Rise turning eve into afk botter dreamland. Good to know you support the use of bots. Typical Anime Masters post. Trash corp, TRASH opinions. Typical alt poast, no opinion, no relevance, no value. Look @ ur likes look at his))))) Do we really have to start a pissing contest about likes being somewhat related to shitpost or can we just agree CCP didn't do that to support botting?
Immortal Chrono Pimpin Anime Masters Verge of Collapse 127	Posted - 2015.02.27 19:58:15 - [125] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Baali Tekitsu wrote: Admiral Whatever wrote: Immortal Chrono Pimpin wrote: So afk ratting ishtars dont get a nerf but ded/pvp fits do? CCP Rise turning eve into afk botter dreamland. Good to know you support the use of bots. Typical Anime Masters post. Trash corp, TRASH opinions. Typical alt poast, no opinion, no relevance, no value. Look @ ur likes look at his))))) Do we really have to start a pissing contest about likes being somewhat related to shitpost or can we just agree CCP didn't do that to support botting? Naw rise got those strong bribes to make this "rebalence"
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1605	Posted - 2015.02.27 20:02:00 - [126] - Quote Immortal Chrono Pimpin wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Baali Tekitsu wrote: Admiral Whatever wrote: Immortal Chrono Pimpin wrote: So afk ratting ishtars dont get a nerf but ded/pvp fits do? CCP Rise turning eve into afk botter dreamland. Good to know you support the use of bots. Typical Anime Masters post. Trash corp, TRASH opinions. Typical alt poast, no opinion, no relevance, no value. Look @ ur likes look at his))))) Do we really have to start a pissing contest about likes being somewhat related to shitpost or can we just agree CCP didn't do that to support botting? Naw rise got those strong bribes to make this "rebalence" If you think he's getting bribes, you should raise this point to internal affair instead of shitting up the forum.
Immortal Chrono Pimpin Anime Masters Verge of Collapse 129	Posted - 2015.02.27 20:08:48 - [127] - Quote The people have a right to know friend.
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1605	Posted - 2015.02.27 20:11:21 - [128] - Quote Immortal Chrono Pimpin wrote: The people have a right to know friend. People won't know unless internal affair put their nose into it. At best people might think of your theory as plausible while others will dismiss it. If internal affair finds any wrongdoing, you can be sure the people will know.
Immortal Chrono Pimpin Anime Masters Verge of Collapse 129	Posted - 2015.02.27 20:13:01 - [129] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Immortal Chrono Pimpin wrote: The people have a right to know friend. People won't know unless internal affair put their nose into it. At best people might think of your theory as plausible while others will dismiss it. If internal affair finds any wrongdoing, you can be sure the people will know. The ccp police force is corrupt as BoB, Remember spawning of t2 bpos? Well they obv spawned ishtar bpos for the cfc.
Baali Tekitsu AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 676	Posted - 2015.02.27 20:14:44 - [130] - Quote Immortal Chrono Pimpin wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Immortal Chrono Pimpin wrote: The people have a right to know friend. People won't know unless internal affair put their nose into it. At best people might think of your theory as plausible while others will dismiss it. If internal affair finds any wrongdoing, you can be sure the people will know. The ccp police force is corrupt as BoB, Remember spawning of t2 bpos? Well they obv spawned ishtar bpos for the cfc. My god anime masters should be deleted RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1605	Posted - 2015.02.27 20:17:59 - [131] - Quote Immortal Chrono Pimpin wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Immortal Chrono Pimpin wrote: The people have a right to know friend. People won't know unless internal affair put their nose into it. At best people might think of your theory as plausible while others will dismiss it. If internal affair finds any wrongdoing, you can be sure the people will know. The ccp police force is corrupt as BoB, Remember spawning of t2 bpos? Well they obv spawned ishtar bpos for the cfc. INternal affairs didn't exist when T20 spawned the BPOs...
Immortal Chrono Pimpin Anime Masters Verge of Collapse 129	Posted - 2015.02.27 20:18:51 - [132] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Immortal Chrono Pimpin wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Immortal Chrono Pimpin wrote: The people have a right to know friend. People won't know unless internal affair put their nose into it. At best people might think of your theory as plausible while others will dismiss it. If internal affair finds any wrongdoing, you can be sure the people will know. The ccp police force is corrupt as BoB, Remember spawning of t2 bpos? Well they obv spawned ishtar bpos for the cfc. INternal affairs didn't exist when T20 spawned the BPOs... Ohh they were there m8 but rise was the lead detective.
Ereilian Mythic Inc Gentlemen's.Parlor 70	Posted - 2015.02.27 20:26:18 - [133] - Quote Immortal Chrono Pimpin wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Immortal Chrono Pimpin wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Immortal Chrono Pimpin wrote: The people have a right to know friend. People won't know unless internal affair put their nose into it. At best people might think of your theory as plausible while others will dismiss it. If internal affair finds any wrongdoing, you can be sure the people will know. The ccp police force is corrupt as BoB, Remember spawning of t2 bpos? Well they obv spawned ishtar bpos for the cfc. INternal affairs didn't exist when T20 spawned the BPOs... Ohh they were there m8 but rise was the lead detective. In Before Doomheim.
Immortal Chrono Pimpin Anime Masters Verge of Collapse 129	Posted - 2015.02.27 20:34:30 - [134] - Quote Confirming you can 100% be permbanned for talking on eve-o. #metagame
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 7	Posted - 2015.02.27 20:42:26 - [135] - Quote Ines Tegator wrote: Just for reference - has ANYONE agreed that DPS is the problem? Anyone? At all? Cmon CCP. Notice that much at least. So many people keep saying that sentries are doing BS DPS and complaining that the Ishtar has it. So indirectly CCP is seeing lots of comments complaining about the amount of damage that Sentries do. So nerfing the damage is addressing every single post that says Ishtar does BS DPS. Get people to stop complaining about the DPS and maybe I will agree that it is not a factor. There are also some posting here that are clearly against the drone weapon system in general and are making it harder to constructively talk about a single ship being balanced. When you look at the Ishatar bonuses, it is clear that it was designed to use Sentries and Heavies as the main weapon system. Unless CCP feels that ship is utterly broken then there are 2 ways to address "BS DPS" with excellent application, nerf the DPS to sub BS (as proposed) and leave excellent application or leave the BS DPS and nerf the application. If you nerf both, without buffing the ship elsewhere, then you could break the ship and CCP has probably learned that is not a desirable outcome. CCP has to balance around more than large scale PvP. The fact that a fleet can offset a DPS nerf with more ships has nothing to do with ship balance. Drone boats are unique, it is part of why Dominix are a popular meta when bombers are not around. I like drones, always have, I don't want to see them or a drone boat nerfed into oblivion. All HACs need to be excellent ships. And clearly the dominant role of the Ishtar doctrine shows it is superior in fleet combat. So let's compare it to other HACs. When you pull up all the HACs the Ishtar is the slowest already (185m/s), for those complaining about its base speed. Its base targeting range is middle of the road 80km only better than the Sacrilege 70KM and Zealot 75KM, the other HACS range from 80 to 95KM. Those that want larger signature: it has the 2nd largest already, 145m. Deimos is 150m. Fitting: It has the worst power grid and CPU among HAC 780MW power and 340 TF CPU. EDIT: All stats taken from EveUniversity Wiki SO the only thing special about an Ishtar is its unique weapon system and how that is bonused. Any talk about balancing this ship should revolve around these bonuses. I'll post my ideas about that in another post.
Nolak Ataru KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 686	Posted - 2015.02.27 20:47:54 - [136] - Quote Aiyshimin wrote: This will achieve the goal of making Ishtars less useful, but unfortunately does nothing to make other ships useful. Range and speed are overpowered in EVE, and only doctrines with damage projection and mobility work. In other words, people will just use the next platform that outranges others while remaining mobile, leaving whole shipclasses gathering dust in hangars. Not empty quoting.
Solairen Matsuko Holding 217	Posted - 2015.02.27 21:06:53 - [137] - Quote I see lots of people saying just remove Sentries from Ishtar because BS weapon on a HAC doesn't make sense. HAC = HEAVY Assault Cruiser, so being a size up in weapons actually does make a lot of sense. No body is talking about nerfing Navy Vexor, which is basically a poor mans Ishtar. It can field Sentires and no one cares. So adjust the number of Sentries the Ishtar can carry a call it a day. If you remove the Sentries I really want to see something different to keep it as a Drone HAC. Maybe give it a drone control unit so it can fly 6 L/M/H instead of the normal 5. Something though that it's not another gun boat, and still fits it's title of "HEAVY" Assault Cruiser. Maybe limit it to Garde only, shortest drange Sentry, so the it's rails have a longer range than the sentries. Easy Lore sell, as the ship system can only handle Gallente Drones, something about interface for BS weapons on a cruiser.... yada yada.
Insidious Hax. 6	Posted - 2015.02.27 21:17:30 - [138] - Quote medium sentries for ishtars heavy sentries for bs and capitals also nerf drone modules, dont just gimp the damn thing, it would nerf the ishtar popular usage and not outright gimp the tactic.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode ISD Community Communications Liaisons 4339	Posted - 2015.02.27 21:45:19 - [139] - Quote Cleaned up the thread a bit. Keep it on topic and civil. Thanks. ISD Dorrim Barstorlode Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 8	Posted - 2015.02.27 22:10:30 - [140] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: In Scylla we are deploying a set of high-impact balance changes. This thread is for discussing a proposed changed to the Ishtar. We are planning to split it's drone damage bonus in to two bonuses so that we can lower the bonus to sentry damage. It would look like this: Old bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage New bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Light, Medium and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage This change is being made to encourage diversity in ship choice across EVE. The Ishtar has proven strong enough with its current bonus set to dominate in many environments and we want to make sure there is plenty of room for ship choice other than the Ishtar. We came to this decision using a combination of internal metrics, community feedback and by using EFT like everyone else. Too much? Too little? Let us know. This is a good a approach, keep the ship design as is and tweak existing bonuses to reduce the effectiveness of the ship. This change brings the damage output better in line with what a HAC should be capable of. There are not a lot of options available without overly nerfing the hull, changing the design of sentry drones, or the design of the Ishtar. If in the end, it is decided that the sentry bonuses are too strong on this platform and need to be removed, I would propose making the Ishtar a very strong mobile drones platform instead. New Ishtar (Non Sentry): Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 7.5% bonus to Light, Medium, and Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed 10% bonus to Light, Medium, and Heavy Drone damage Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level): 5000m bonus to Drone operation range 20% bonus to Drone health points Role Bonus: 50% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty Resulting Changes: Light and Medium drones get the speed and tracking bonus like the Heavy already has. HP bonus moved to HAC level and doubled allowing all drones, since they are forced to brawl, to be tougher. OR Change it to be like the Heavy Drone version of the Gila New Ishtar (Heavy Drones): Drone Capacity: 300 m-¦ Drone Bandwith: 75 Mbit/sec Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 7.5% bonus Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed 10% bonus to Drone damage and HP Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level): 5000m bonus to Drone operation range 100% bonus to Heavy Drone damage and health points Role Bonus: 50% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty Resulting change: Max heavy drones down from 5 to 3 but each one is stronger and tougher. The damage remains the same old 1.5 x 5 = 7.5 vs new 2.5 x 3 =7.5. And perhaps some of these numbers actually should be higher to compensate for the loss Sentry bonuses. I'd hate to see Sentries removed from cruisers as they are also used on VNI and Stratios. But If CCP moves in that direction, please don't abandon the unique and specialized drone boats. Balance by buffing them up in some areas to compensate for any nerf you apply. The last option is to go the way of a mixed weapon system, which is a bit unfair to those not adequately trained for a 2nd system, but there you have it. Remove the sentry bonus and add a bonus for Medium Hybrid turrets. I don't like this option myself, but this thread is to look at options.
Quesa Burning Napalm Northern Coalition. 50	Posted - 2015.02.27 22:14:33 - [141] - Quote Tracking needs to be addressed. Even with a small drop in overall DPS, they will still apply BS level damage with Medium gun tracking.
MukkBarovian Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Legion 32	Posted - 2015.02.27 22:20:45 - [142] - Quote Fighters warping to supers/carriers is a very nice quality of life thing for capital pilots. Since the intended target of the nerf is a very specific style of gameplay, it would be nice if recovery of drones wasn't collateral damage.
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 8	Posted - 2015.02.27 22:23:30 - [143] - Quote MukkBarovian wrote: Fighters warping to supers/carriers is a very nice quality of life thing for capital pilots. Since the intended target of the nerf is a very specific style of gameplay, it would be nice if recovery of drones wasn't collateral damage. I like that idea.
Komodo Askold No Code of Conduct Fluffeh Bunneh Murder Squad 305	Posted - 2015.02.27 22:24:11 - [144] - Quote Thank you CCP for daring to bring a solution for this whole Ishtar mess. Let's see how can we all together find the most optimal solution. So far there seem to be some pretty important points: - Ishtar can deal very high DPS for its size by using sentries. - At the same time, it can apply that DPS thanks to its tracking bonus. - It is able to have an impressive tank, being a drone ship AND having lots of CPU/PW. While the damage change proposed by CCP would reduce a bit their performance on solo Ishtars or small gangs, several people have stated it won't have that much of an impact on very large fleets, since you can always bring more of them to cover the DPS loss. For me, some changes that would reduce its performance to more acceptable levels would be: - Keep the sentry damage reduction. - Reduce, or remove, the tracking bonus for sentries. - Reduce its CPU/PW to levels comparable to its cousin HAC's. - Reduce its dronebay to BC levels (Myrmidon, Prophecy). Combining all of these changes, I think the Ishtar would end much more in level to other HAC's on terms of overall performance, without nerfing it to the ground (we all know that nerfing things too much makes them utterly useless, and might even take with them a weapon system, as happened with the Drake). Some people have even proposed to completely remove sentries from the game. Personally I would prefer them to stay: I've used them for a long time on the Dominix, and I doubt removing stuff from games is a good move. When you look at it, however, maybe it wouldn't be that bad. Drone ships would need to land their drones on their targets, and maybe there could be Gecko-like superheavy drones to offer more options for drone users. Even, the current purpose of sentries as deployable turrets could be taken by actual deployable structures with a big ol' gun on top. I hope the changes I posted above are enough, though, and we don't need to remove sentries from anywhere.
Vaju Enki Secular Wisdom 1434	Posted - 2015.02.27 22:36:50 - [145] - Quote Finally. The Tears Must Flow
Azure Wyvern Origin. 15	Posted - 2015.02.27 22:39:34 - [146] - Quote EvilweaselFinance wrote: well this wasn't the 5 m/s nerf to its speed i was expecting but it's still clearly a "terrified of making too big a change that there's no chance of it going far enough" change (like the last ishtar nerf). at least it's a little bigger than the last one. I dont like to see a ship that is over-powered in large scale pvp environments destroyed when the ishtar is backbone for alot of people to make their isk... Your removing DPS from sentries when on a 200 ship scale is almost nothing.. On the other hand makes a huge difference when Im running sites with 2 of them... The problem is not me using them to make isk.. its to "try" and make alliances use something else.. the ishtar is too good? or all your other ships are not good or specilaized enough? Id be perfectly fine with my sentries only able to hit out to 40km.. or have to pull them in and put out lights or mediums to combat smaller ships because sentries cannot track anything but cruisers up.. but to cripple the only useful HAC in the game down because people are sick of fighting them.. honestly makes no sense. This is not fixing the problem and only hurts the "usefullness" of the ship in every other aspect than why your actually nerfing it to begin with. i.e sentry tracking + range (is all you need to touch) CARNAGE TO ALL
zomgwtfbbq Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.02.27 23:13:04 - [147] - Quote As someone who loves running PVE encounters with my isthar im worried that this change will have a large negative impact on my ability to clear low sec encounters in a timly manner. Clearing certain sites & missions already poses an interesting challenge for a single ishtar; entering a room and trying to burn away before you get popped is quite exhilarating and im worried that with this change that the Ishtar will no longer be able to perform this role and I'll have to move onto a t3 setup as bringing a domi(slow) or rattlesnake(expensive) isnt such a wise decision. Tl;dr> You're hurting the ishtar in all forms of gameplay and not just PVP. I'd love to see an additional bonus so heavies are more attractive to use on the isthar would be a good addition.
Crysantos Callahan Control-Space DARKNESS. 30	Posted - 2015.02.27 23:17:07 - [148] - Quote Azure Wyvern wrote: EvilweaselFinance wrote: well this wasn't the 5 m/s nerf to its speed i was expecting but it's still clearly a "terrified of making too big a change that there's no chance of it going far enough" change (like the last ishtar nerf). at least it's a little bigger than the last one. I dont like to see a ship that is over-powered in large scale pvp environments destroyed when the ishtar is backbone for alot of people to make their isk... Your removing DPS from sentries when on a 200 ship scale is almost nothing.. On the other hand makes a huge difference when Im running sites with 2 of them... The problem is not me using them to make isk.. its to "try" and make alliances use something else.. the ishtar is too good? or all your other ships are not good or specilaized enough? Id be perfectly fine with my sentries only able to hit out to 40km.. or have to pull them in and put out lights or mediums to combat smaller ships because sentries cannot track anything but cruisers up.. but to cripple the only useful HAC in the game down because people are sick of fighting them.. honestly makes no sense. This is not fixing the problem and only hurts the "usefullness" of the ship in every other aspect than why your actually nerfing it to begin with. i.e sentry tracking + range (is all you need to touch) why does everything need to be compared to its equivilant ship class? Or maybe the "only useful" HAC ingame is totally unbalanced in comparison to the other HACs, it's not crippling them but more getting them "in line" with the rest of them. Most people in here ask for changes that wouldn't cripple your PVE ishtar but weaken its current role as jack of all trades ;)
Lena Lazair Khanid Irregulars Khanid's Legion 253	Posted - 2015.02.27 23:35:36 - [149] - Quote How about 0% bonus to Sentry HP/damage? I don't see any other HAC's with bonuses to large/BC/BS weapons.
Atomeon The Scope Gallente Federation 15	Posted - 2015.02.27 23:50:13 - [150] - Quote Terra Chrall wrote: When you pull up all the HACs the Ishtar is the slowest already (185m/s), for those complaining about its base speed. Its base targeting range is middle of the road 80km only better than the Sacrilege 70KM and Zealot 75KM, the other HACS range from 80 to 95KM. Those that want larger signature: it has the 2nd largest already, 145m. Deimos is 150m. Fitting: It has the worst power grid and CPU among HAC 780MW power and 340 TF CPU. EDIT: All stats taken from EveUniversity Wiki You nerfed Bounchers (-6km optimal. Nerfed the whole drone ships in the game) and now you nerfing ishtar. From bounchers nerf, now, the drones will work at deep fall off, so less DPS Already. I wouldnt suprise if dps drop to high 500ish to low 600ish and that is unacceptable for Dominix and others drone BSes. So, ishtar now woll have 500-600 dps, but thats ok for you. A Rail deimos with 5x 250mm rails can be around 530-600DPS, but now you nerfing rails too. From the above it seems you targeting the whole Gallente fleet. I m against these nerfs.
Ncc 1709 Fusion Enterprises Ltd Shadow of xXDEATHXx 131	Posted - 2015.02.28 00:15:22 - [151] - Quote the only class ships that should field heavier drones should be battleships. ishtars with sentries aint about the damage. its about the dropping your 'guns' and running out of hostile damage range. you could totally remove the damage bonus to sentries and people will still use them, simply because they can drop their guns and run
Alexis Nightwish 99	Posted - 2015.02.28 01:04:26 - [152] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: New bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Light, Medium and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage WHY ARE THESE *CRUISER-CLASS* SHIPS *STILL* RECEIVING ANY BONUS TO *BATTLESHIP-SIZED* WEAPONS!? /bangs head on wall CCP only approaches a problem in one of two ways: nudge or cludge
Nolak Ataru KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 690	Posted - 2015.02.28 01:05:39 - [153] - Quote Alexis Nightwish wrote: CCP Rise wrote: New bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Light, Medium and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage ~Snip~ /bangs head on wall Where did CCP say they are battleship weapons?
Alexis Nightwish 99	Posted - 2015.02.28 01:28:25 - [154] - Quote Nolak Ataru wrote: Alexis Nightwish wrote: CCP Rise wrote: New bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Light, Medium and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage ~Snip~ /bangs head on wall Where did CCP say they are battleship weapons? Don't know; don't care. They are. Optimal Range Ogre II_________________4200 Neutron Blaster Cannon II__3600 (Navy AM) Warden II______________60000 425mm Railgun II________57600 (Navy Lead; closest ammo to Warden's range and tracking) Falloff Ogre II_________________5000 Neutron Blaster Cannon II__10000 (Navy AM) Warden II______________42000 425mm Railgun II________24000 (Navy Lead) Tracking Ogre II_________________.540 Neutron Blaster Cannon II__.052 (Navy AM) Warden II______________.012 425mm Railgun II________.010 (Navy Lead) DPS (w/o bonuses) Ogre II_________________31 Neutron Blaster Cannon II__31 (Navy AM) Warden II______________22 425mm Railgun II_______14 (Navy Lead) Signature (the size ship they are designed to shoot) Ogre II __________________400 Neutron Blaster Cannon II____400 Warden II_________________400 425mm Railgun II_________400 CCP only approaches a problem in one of two ways: nudge or cludge
Cae Lara Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 9	Posted - 2015.02.28 01:59:22 - [155] - Quote Andrea Keuvo wrote: I don't really understand where this misinformation that heavy/sentry drones are "battleship" class weapons comes from. Last time I checked battleships with drone bonuses can also equip large guns/launchers where the Ishtar cannot. The only thing needed to deploy a heavy/sentry drone is 25m drone bandwidth and a 25m3 drone bay. Yeah, we know they fit on any ship with 25m of drone juice, that's the problem. The fitting requirements don't scale in the same logarithmic fashion so they only go from 5m to 25m while guns go from 5 PG to 2000 PG. The misinformation is probably coming from people looking at the in game market and seeing small medium and large variants of weapons that fit on small medium and large ships respectively. Then they look at the drones that have light medium and heavy variants that do similar damage to the guns and missiles... and assume that because they're named similarly and do similar damage, that they should fit on similar ships.
FT Diomedes The Graduates Forged of Fire 843	Posted - 2015.02.28 03:09:22 - [156] - Quote Aiyshimin wrote: This will achieve the goal of making Ishtars less useful, but unfortunately does nothing to make other ships useful. Range and speed are overpowered in EVE, and only doctrines with damage projection and mobility work. In other words, people will just use the next platform that outranges others while remaining mobile, leaving whole shipclasses gathering dust in hangars. This man understands the game. The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 856	Posted - 2015.02.28 03:46:11 - [157] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Would rather have seen the ishtar lose the sentries entirely. CCP steps up to the plate.... Swing and a miss! They have squandered the opportunity for both the ishtars and the carrier assist in one fell swoop. Every time I start to have some faith - they go back to doing silly crap for silly reasons. There are actually downloadable flowcharts that real businesses use to filter through the garbage/static and get to the actual root of problems so that you can solve problems in lieu of treating symptoms. http://www.troubleshooters.com/tuni.htm#_The_10_step_Universal_Troubleshooting
Caleb Seremshur The Atomic Fallout Kids 489	Posted - 2015.02.28 05:12:03 - [158] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: Aiyshimin wrote: This will achieve the goal of making Ishtars less useful, but unfortunately does nothing to make other ships useful. Range and speed are overpowered in EVE, and only doctrines with damage projection and mobility work. In other words, people will just use the next platform that outranges others while remaining mobile, leaving whole shipclasses gathering dust in hangars. This man understands the game. Yeah but the point is "how long does it take to train for?". What next? Lasers will be the next FOTM? That's a guaranteed couple of months SP from EVERYONE IN NULLSEC right there. The ferriswheel of OP spins some more, the only question is what setup will win the lottery next. Faction warfare pilot and solo/small gang PVP advocate
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 857	Posted - 2015.02.28 06:04:25 - [159] - Quote Caleb Seremshur wrote: FT Diomedes wrote: Aiyshimin wrote: This will achieve the goal of making Ishtars less useful, but unfortunately does nothing to make other ships useful. Range and speed are overpowered in EVE, and only doctrines with damage projection and mobility work. In other words, people will just use the next platform that outranges others while remaining mobile, leaving whole shipclasses gathering dust in hangars. This man understands the game. Yeah but the point is "how long does it take to train for?". What next? Lasers will be the next FOTM? That's a guaranteed couple of months SP from EVERYONE IN NULLSEC right there. The ferriswheel of OP spins some more, the only question is what setup will win the lottery next. I think most of the folks have a clear understanding of the difference between OP and FOTM. Take the current worm. It's incredibly wicked and powerful. Is it OP? Heck no. It has counters. There are reasonable ways to effictively fight them. It's a powerful ship, but not OP. Similar arguments for the orthrus. It's murder against frigates and even many cruisers. Again, there are reasonable counters. Not OP. Pro tip: reducing the damage from BS damage to slightly less BS damage isn't going to fix anything as long as the ishtar can race out of combat range (or start there and stay there).
Caleb Seremshur The Atomic Fallout Kids 490	Posted - 2015.02.28 08:03:02 - [160] - Quote And that's why I've been saying for months to make it a heavy drone boat. Sentries will never be balanced until they're class limited to battlecruisers and battleships. Faction warfare pilot and solo/small gang PVP advocate
Gregor Parud Ordo Ardish 1217	Posted - 2015.02.28 09:15:57 - [161] - Quote The dps change is a decent start but not sure if it's enough on its own, a large portion of the Ishtar's sentry issues is the range bonus so dropping that (makes little sense for a Gallente ship to have a range bonus anyway) a bit would probably complete it. I'm old Gregor.
Primary This Rifter 4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation 607	Posted - 2015.02.28 09:45:54 - [162] - Quote We'll just bring more Ishtars. Reminder: CCP thinks you have no right to your alliance logos.
Lug Muad'Dib Wise Humans Sword 37	Posted - 2015.02.28 10:02:41 - [163] - Quote Nolak Ataru wrote: Where did CCP say they are battleship weapons? CCP Rise wrote: This "Ishtar has bonuses to battleship weapons" line that keeps coming up is interesting. We talked about it some earlier here. There's parts of it that we can agree about but it's also something that makes drones interesting across all drone using/bonused ships. You could use the same argument to say that Dominix's shouldn't get bonuses to light drones or that Vexors shouldn't be able to use lights or heavies or sentries. We feel that in general it's an interesting and positive part of drone design that they aren't fixed to ship sizes nearly as strictly as other weapon types. We just need to find ways to have balanced ships as well. D-Scan immunity is dumb.
Caleb Seremshur The Atomic Fallout Kids 492	Posted - 2015.02.28 11:45:53 - [164] - Quote Lug Muad'Dib wrote: Nolak Ataru wrote: Where did CCP say they are battleship weapons? CCP Rise wrote: This "Ishtar has bonuses to battleship weapons" line that keeps coming up is interesting. We talked about it some earlier here. There's parts of it that we can agree about but it's also something that makes drones interesting across all drone using/bonused ships. You could use the same argument to say that Dominix's shouldn't get bonuses to light drones or that Vexors shouldn't be able to use lights or heavies or sentries. We feel that in general it's an interesting and positive part of drone design that they aren't fixed to ship sizes nearly as strictly as other weapon types. We just need to find ways to have balanced ships as well. Well that's really cute but the evidence is overwhelming that this particular design philosophy was flawed at launch and it's sad to see it took this long for something to be done about it. As for the comment about dominix having a bonus to light drones would it be fair to say that removing a light drone bonus from domi's would be a slippery slope that would see drone bays being removed outright or severely gimped for non-drone based ships? And then would we see weapon slots removed from drone boats? Where does it end? There's all sorts of freaky ** possible with drone ships that we don't see on other vessels. Actually I'll qualify that: there's all kinds of freaky ** that can be done on ships with drone bays. How about Navy phoon with sentries, MJD and large artillery? Lock enemy at 50km, drop sentries, F, MJD at a relative angle away from the target, blast with artillery. Now they have a triangulated position and taking multiple damage types. All you need is something to hold tackle on the target (like a bubble) and it makes life easy. Faction warfare pilot and solo/small gang PVP advocate
Alexander McKeon Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Legion 76	Posted - 2015.02.28 11:46:57 - [165] - Quote CCP Rise, I sincerely hope that you take the time to appreciate the nuances of the situation which the players are describing to you with the Ishtar; it truly is not as straightforward as GÇÿthe ship does too much damage,GÇÖ though 700 dps from Gardes is above and beyond what a Deimos with heavy neutron blasts can do with void. The true issue, as others have stated is its incredible skirmishing ability. No other cruise in the game can run its microwarpdrive almost permanently while keeping a hundred kilometers or more away from the target and still apply the level of damage which the Ishtar does, which is the fundamental problem. This isnGÇÖt an issue which can be fixed with a simple reduction in the magnitude of its damage bonus, though said reduction is absolutely warranted. A number of radical and impractical suggestions such as removing drone damage amplifiers or changing fundamental properties of sentry drones have been suggested, and none of those are realistically going to happen. What should be done is to look at the specific reasons the Ishtar is overly strong: Speed & Mobility: the Ishtar has the ability to run its microwarpdrive near permanently allowing it to maintain range without having to fit any capacitor-related modules or sacrifice active hardeners to do so. No other HAC can maintain the speeds which the Ishtar does for as long as it does, and ease with which it can be made cap-stable with a 100mn afterburner leads to some very effective ratting setups. Suggested change: increase the raw capacitor buffer, but lower the recharge rate so that the Ishtar can run its MWD for a time in line with other HACs but eliminating the unparalleled range dictation capability it currently enjoys. Damage Projection: While the change to bouncers will reduce the damage which the Ishtar is capable of dealing at range, the combination of base targeting range, drone control range bonus and ample fitting room for a drone link augmenter allow a HAC to compete with long-range battleship fits for ability to maintain range while applying its damage. Since the physical position of the sentry drones does not affect whether a target is within drone control range, the Ishtar has significant freedom in how it moves around grid without a care for tracking or range envelopes. Suggested change: reduce base targeting & drone control range so that the IshtarGÇÖs engagement envelope is comparable to HAC/T3 platforms which deal comparable dps; comparing a high-dps platform like the Ishtar to Eagles (a dedicated sniping ship) isnGÇÖt reasonable, but it shouldnGÇÖt out-perform beam zealots or Muninns to the degree it currently does. The Ishtar currently enjoys the DPS of the Dominix (which is about to be reduced), along with comparable application range & tracking while dramatically out-performing it as a mobile skirmish platform.
Ludwig Oslon Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.02.28 13:01:52 - [166] - Quote Any of these: Fix #1: Remove the sentry bonuses and put in a drone capacity bay bonus. Fix #2: Lower operation bandwidth of Ishtar and VNI to 75mb/s and keep current amazing bonuses Fix #3: Did I mention remove the sentry bonuses?
Ben Ishikela 17	Posted - 2015.02.28 13:21:29 - [167] - Quote The weakspot of the ishtar seem to me that those sentries are shootable. So i can destroy the dps when fighting against an ishtar. Sentries do not move, so i can hit them jsut fine. To everyone: start shooting those drones! To CCP Rise: lower the hitpoints (or just hitpoint bonus) on sentries. raise their signature radius. Also raise the required material to build them. imho It should cost a lot to deploy and leave (/loose) them. Now the dps on paper is still good, but ishtars will be very weak. more depth. ps.: consider this. No more nerfing of percieved Overpowered Content! It makes a game boring after too many iterations. Instead add new modules or ships that can use tactics and strategies to fight the current Meta.
Jori McKie TURN LEFT The Camel Empire 213	Posted - 2015.02.28 13:39:13 - [168] - Quote Alexander McKeon wrote: CCP Rise, I sincerely hope that you take the time to appreciate the nuances of the situation which the players are describing to you with the Ishtar; it truly is not as straightforward as GÇÿthe ship does too much damage,GÇÖ though 700 dps from Gardes is above and beyond what a Deimos with heavy neutron blasts can do with void. The true issue, as others have stated is its incredible skirmishing ability. No other cruise in the game can run its microwarpdrive almost permanently while keeping a hundred kilometers or more away from the target and still apply the level of damage which the Ishtar does, which is the fundamental problem. This isnGÇÖt an issue which can be fixed with a simple reduction in the magnitude of its damage bonus, though said reduction is absolutely warranted. A number of radical and impractical suggestions such as removing drone damage amplifiers or changing fundamental properties of sentry drones have been suggested, and none of those are realistically going to happen. What should be done is to look at the specific reasons the Ishtar is overly strong: Speed & Mobility: the Ishtar has the ability to run its microwarpdrive near permanently allowing it to maintain range without having to fit any capacitor-related modules or sacrifice active hardeners to do so. No other HAC can maintain the speeds which the Ishtar does for as long as it does, and ease with which it can be made cap-stable with a 100mn afterburner leads to some very effective ratting setups. Suggested change: increase the raw capacitor buffer, but lower the recharge rate so that the Ishtar can run its MWD for a time in line with other HACs but eliminating the unparalleled range dictation capability it currently enjoys. Damage Projection: While the change to bouncers will reduce the damage which the Ishtar is capable of dealing at range, the combination of base targeting range, drone control range bonus and ample fitting room for a drone link augmenter allow a HAC to compete with long-range battleship fits for ability to maintain range while applying its damage. Since the physical position of the sentry drones does not affect whether a target is within drone control range, the Ishtar has significant freedom in how it moves around grid without a care for tracking or range envelopes. Suggested change: reduce base targeting & drone control range so that the IshtarGÇÖs engagement envelope is comparable to HAC/T3 platforms which deal comparable dps; comparing a high-dps platform like the Ishtar to Eagles (a dedicated sniping ship) isnGÇÖt reasonable, but it shouldnGÇÖt out-perform beam zealots or Muninns to the degree it currently does. The Ishtar currently enjoys the DPS of the Dominix (which is about to be reduced), along with comparable application range & tracking while dramatically out-performing it as a mobile skirmish platform. Good summary, tags all important points and suggests a solution. I think the best idea would be a severe reduction in damage projection aka, get rid of any range and tracking boni for sentries. "It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." --áAbrazzar
Caleb Seremshur The Atomic Fallout Kids 492	Posted - 2015.02.28 14:36:33 - [169] - Quote The sickest irony about all this is that when heavy missiles were overpowered* CCP nerfed the missile and fundamentally broke every ship format that used them. Now we see the pendulum swinging and the heavy nerfs are still not coming. The range, power projection, selectable damage type, damage application and raw damage of the ishtar far outweighs anything I ever saw in those dark times. I wonder if heavy missiles were returned to their previous stats under the current ship balancing would CFC and friends be quick to re-adopt drake fleets? Cerberus fleets? HML tengu fleets? Or has the meta evolved so far beyond that even a substantially cheaper setup for SRP like drakefleet would still not be warrented because coalitions have amongst other things so much money that you should always run the most cost effective fleet and that it would still be the ishtar? Show me a time ever when drakes did 700dps to 100km. You simply can't. Show me a time where heavy missiles still worked in pvp when the firing ship was jammed or damped into uselessness. You can't. Show me a time where heavy missiles could ever compete with the sentry drone for attacking small craft at fleet engagement ranges? You can't. And what about today? You can't firewall sentries. You can't put remote repairers on missiles in flight. You can't feasibly damp or jam every sentry drone on field. In my mind it is very clear, the only balanced drone ships out there are the guristas ships and only because neutralising one of the drones the host is using is gutting a large portion of its DPS. On an ishtar you maybe disable 20% of the ships damage output, on a rattlesnake jamming or TDing a sentry might very well cut 25-40% of the ships dps instantly. Faction warfare pilot and solo/small gang PVP advocate
Takeshi Kumamato Exiled Kings The Fearless Empire 5	Posted - 2015.02.28 15:23:52 - [170] - Quote I would rather see Ishtars be turned into heavy drone specialists and get a unique bonus like 25% bonus to heavy drone optimal range and orbit range per Heavy Assault Cruiser level. This lets heavy drones switch targets and track targets much better than before, and at level 5, the drones would orbit just outside of large smartbomb range.
Flaming Butterfly Black Serpent Technologies Black Legion. 2	Posted - 2015.02.28 17:43:53 - [171] - Quote Want your favorite BS's back??? Sentries to 8s ROF and 1400, 425, and Tach tracking levels (respective of racial types). Ishtar DPS is cut in half for them, they don't **** everything in sight and BS's get useful. Give Rattlesnake, Geddon and Domi ROF bonuses to bring Sentries back to 4s ROF. Please drop the PG on the Tach, 1400 and 425's so ship gets some tank with it's punch instead of loading up on RCU's and Current Routers.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 786	Posted - 2015.02.28 18:13:10 - [172] - Quote Primary This Rifter wrote: We'll just bring more Ishtars. I wasn't aware of anyone, including the CFC, saying to pilots 'nah, just chill at home, we don't need more for this: we want a long bash and a close fight' EVERYONE already comes out with everything they can field at that time. Because it is nonsensical not to.
M1k3y Koontz Aether Ventures Surely You're Joking 652	Posted - 2015.02.28 18:20:06 - [173] - Quote Still not enough. Scrap the sentry bonus from Ishtars entirely. Querns wrote: I'd rephrase it as make drone link augmentors ineffective on sentries. Drone control range seems misapplied towards stationary drones. A reduction to the effect of (Advanced) Drone Avionics to sentries would also help. Here's an idea. Force those Ishtars to stay near their sentries and they're no longer the ultimate sniping fleet. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Lucretia DeWinter Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad. 199	Posted - 2015.02.28 21:03:46 - [174] - Quote Why not balance the Ishtar to its class in line with the Cruiser/Medium bonuses that ALL the other HACs get? Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed 10% bonus to Light, Medium and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level): 2000m bonus to Drone operation range 10% bonus to Drone Microwarpdrive speed. Role Bonus: 50% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty Other Changes: Drone Capacity 250 (-125) Removes the Ishtar as an ungodly sentry platform yet keeps it a powerful drone boat with options.
Suitonia Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep 462	Posted - 2015.02.28 21:17:03 - [175] - Quote Another suggestion could possibly be to spilt Drone Damage Amplifiers into 2 different modules, Combat Drone Damage Amplifiers and Sentry Drone Damage Amplifiers. There already are specific rigs for Sentry Drone Damage. By Creating a Different Sentry/Combat DDA then Sentry Ishtars who use 3x SDDAs would be a lot more vulnerable to fast tackle as they would have to either give up Sentry Damage for CDDAs or use non damage amplified Warrior/Acolytes, and having something like 2x sentry sets + 2x gecko + 5x light drones or w/e would make their current power in a variety of situations much weaker. One of the biggest weaknesses of other LR damage Ships such As Zealots, Oracles, Nagas etc. is their lack of options against smaller craft and ships which are able to get on top of them, The Ishtar currently does not face that problem since Triple DDA light drones destroy everything smaller than a Cruiser with ease, the Ishtar would still have better options than other LR ships. This would also allow better balancing options as damage & fittings on SDDAs and CDDAs could be adjusted independently of one-another. Contributer to Eve is Easy: https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
Sizeof Void Ninja Suicide Squadron 577	Posted - 2015.02.28 21:46:12 - [176] - Quote I don't think there is anything wrong with the Ishtar. I think that the problem is that sentries + DDAs have become OP. This is the reason why Vexors with 3x Garde IIs are popular ganking ships. Think about this too: you are proposing to nerf the sentry bonus, but not the heavy drone bonus. This should indicate a balance problem between heavies and sentries, which are both BS weapons.
Daimus Daranius 24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire 5	Posted - 2015.02.28 21:54:06 - [177] - Quote Ishtar without sentries just wouldn't be the same. Its problem does not lie within an ability to field sentries by itself, but within the ability to quickly switch range and damage type by deploying different sentries. And that problem plagues pretty much all drone boats and makes drone meta so popular ever since CCP introduced Drone Damage Amplifiers - they do way too much DPS which isn't restricted by damage type, capacitor, or even EWAR. And since Gallente ships generally don't get a bonus to projectile weapons and we don't see explosive damage bonuses on Caldari ships, I don't see a reason why an Ishtar could use Bouncers so effectively. I reckon that ships of The Best RaceGäó would be just as broken if lasers could switch their damage type instantly (although you could still shut them down with neuts or EWAR, which tends not to be the case with drone boats). So, instead of removing sentries from Ishtar entirely, why not simply restrict Ishtar's sentry damage bonus to apply only if sentries are using Kinetic or Thermal damage? That would be in line with other Gallente ships. Amarr Victor!
Tusker Crazinski Delta vane Corp. Mordus Angels 33	Posted - 2015.02.28 22:06:41 - [178] - Quote lol, still hilariously op drones in general need to be much more susceptible to being shot, and not have nearly as much slots as they do. TrouserDeagle wrote: do something to push it toward armour tanking Armor ishtar is much more OP than the shield one in small gangs and solo
Alexis Nightwish 101	Posted - 2015.02.28 22:40:56 - [179] - Quote Lug Muad'Dib wrote: Nolak Ataru wrote: Where did CCP say they are battleship weapons? CCP Rise wrote: This "Ishtar has bonuses to battleship weapons" line that keeps coming up is interesting. We talked about it some earlier here. There's parts of it that we can agree about but it's also something that makes drones interesting across all drone using/bonused ships. You could use the same argument to say that Dominix's shouldn't get bonuses to light drones or that Vexors shouldn't be able to use lights or heavies or sentries. We feel that in general it's an interesting and positive part of drone design that they aren't fixed to ship sizes nearly as strictly as other weapon types. We just need to find ways to have balanced ships as well. This is a flawed argument. The problem isn't so much being able to use drones outside their size class, it's that they receive full bonuses without any sort of drawback. Let's take two other ship types that have weapons above their size class: Bombers and Tier 3 BCs. Both of these ships have definite drawbacks to their high damage potential, most noticeably their paper tank. These ships are very much glass cannons. Additionally they are locked into that weapon. So while it's not impossible to downsize their weapons, they receive no bonuses to them if they do so. Drone boats, especially the cruiser class ones, bypass this completely. They can use any sized drone, with full bonuses applied to them. This allows them to to selectively choose their damage and application for maximum effect without any of the drawbacks that Bombers or Attack BCs have. This leads me to see three possible solutions to this fundamental problem: Solution 1) Keep CCPs current philosophy of drone boats having the unique ability to be upsized (or downsized) by applying their bonus to all drones, but their drone bandwidth must be adjusted like this: Frigates: 25mb Destroyers: 40mb Cruisers: 50mb Battlecruisers: 100mb Battleships: 125mb Solution 2) Abandon CCPs current philosophy of drone boats, and make all drone boats more like the Guristas line. They would still have their large bandwidth: Frigates and Destroyers only gain bonuses to light drones. Cruisers and Battlecruisers only gain bonuses to medium drones. Battleships only gain bonuses to heavy and sentry drones. Solution 3) A hybrid of the first two. This solution results in drone boats gaining no bonuses to upsized drones, but full bonuses to drones of their size or lower (again they would still have their large drone bandwidth): Frigates and Destroyers only gain bonuses to light drones. Cruisers and Battlecruisers only gain bonuses to light and medium drones. Battleships only gain bonuses to light, medium, heavy, and sentry drones. CCP only approaches a problem in one of two ways: nudge or cludge
O2 jayjay Tit-EE Sprinkles Stratagem. 19	Posted - 2015.02.28 22:54:59 - [180] - Quote Finally! 100 bandwith would have fixed the problem but this fixes sentries. Still dont like the fact that is get BS dps drones for a crusier. Dont see the Deimos out punching a brutix. +1
Petrified Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance 228	Posted - 2015.03.01 00:56:45 - [181] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Would rather have seen the ishtar lose the sentries entirely. Baby steps. I believe they are pairing down than simply gutting, the former being the better option. There is such as thing as beating the dead Ishtar with the nerf bat.
Petrified Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance 228	Posted - 2015.03.01 01:01:56 - [182] - Quote Tusker Crazinski wrote: lol, still hilariously op drones in general need to be much more susceptible to being shot, and not have nearly as much slots as they do. TrouserDeagle wrote: do something to push it toward armour tanking Armor ishtar is much more OP than the shield one in small gangs and solo My personal take is that Drones (that non-piloted menace we all know and love) need to be more susceptible to interference and disruption when it is applied to the drone deploying ship. ie: tracking disruption, range and sensor dampening, etc.
Reddish Garemoko Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.03.01 03:09:09 - [183] - Quote I've been spanked by an Ishtar. But by continuously bowing to the desires of the community to never lose or be outgunned, no completely awesome weapon can ever be allowed. Meh. Why nerf a great piece of equipment? IMO any ship can be beaten by some fleet and no ship is invincible, so why not just re-balance pvp a different way. Let's allow ships be "overpowered", it's fun. It's the way we want it, really. But get a level playing field in different ways, maybe make it extremely expensive to run, or make it reduce skill points every time you fight it, dozens of different ways to "re-balance" in a way that allows Eve to have a horrible menace running around, some excitement with a mechanic that curbs it in some other way. It's such a bummer to invest skills and time in a plan and then have the program castrated just when you finally build/buy the damned thing.
Drodecas The Northerners Northern Coalition. 8	Posted - 2015.03.01 04:36:14 - [184] - Quote In bigger engagements the proposed changes will have little effect. As In a big Ishtar blob a lot of drones are not triggering as the target is already dead. for medium sized fleets <60 Ishtars it wil. The problem with the Ishtar is that it enganges all types of target from 0-120km, This will not change. To make a ishtar that is less hard to counter do one of the following: 1 Remove the tracking bonus: Can now sigtank them and orbit the drones more easy. 2 Remove the optimal range: long range ships have the ability to engange them. 3 Reduce the targeting range: long range ships have the ability to engange them. Damps are more effective.
Petrified Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance 230	Posted - 2015.03.01 05:06:06 - [185] - Quote Alexis Nightwish wrote: Solution 3) A hybrid of the first two. This solution results in drone boats gaining no bonuses to upsized drones, but full bonuses to drones of their size or lower (again they would still have their large drone bandwidth): Frigates and Destroyers only gain bonuses to light drones. Cruisers and Battlecruisers only gain bonuses to light and medium drones. Battleships only gain bonuses to light, medium, heavy, and sentry drones. You have an excellent point regarding Oversized weapons. I lean towards liking solution 3 that you propose the best but with this modification: Frigates and Destroyers only gain bonuses to light drones. Cruisers only gain bonuses to light and medium drones. Battlecruisers only gain bonuses to light, medium, and heavy drones. Battleships only gain bonuses to light, medium, heavy, and sentry drones.
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 863	Posted - 2015.03.01 05:43:32 - [186] - Quote The problem is that the ishtar drops its sentries AND THEN runs out of range at high speed and small sig radius. It's the drop and run combo that makes it OP. Reducing it's damage by 20% does nothing. If it takes 20 ishtars to alpha a target, then reducing it's damage by 20% requires.... hmm.... an additional let's just skip the math and say and additional 5 ishtars. So reducing damage by 20% has zero effect on a 50 ishtar fleet it's still going to alpha crap off the field while zipping around at 2k+m/s at a range of 120 km to the fight. Except on a few small gang fringe cases this 'nerf' actually changes nothing. Anyone crying that this is an unfair nerf that will ruin the usefulness of the ishtar had damn well better be giggling while they say it. I'm not sure why CCP is so against taking sentries away from all but BS hulls, but it sure would solve a pile of current issues with the game. Since the introduction of drone modules sentries have been out of balance and abused. Keep them in game, but put them as BS only. The ONLY current problems with sentry drones is: 1) Cruiser and BC hulls are too small and too fast to be able to drop that kind of damage on the field and run out to crazy range. 2) Carriers have too many ehp and can sit there and tank too much damage while the sentries are assisted to smaller ships. In large fleets they have proven capable of deliberate player induced soul crushing lag when deployed in large numbers. BS damage (sentry drones) is balanced on BS hulls. BS damage that quick locks (drone assist) w/ millions of ehp (carrier) it unbalanced. BS damage deployed by a hull (cruiser / BC) that is fit for pure kite is unbalance. Stop blaming sentries. Blame the archon and the ishtars for having them. TL/DR Quit treating the symptoms and fix the problems.
Arthur Aihaken X A X 4095	Posted - 2015.03.01 06:54:29 - [187] - Quote Cut sentry drone range by half. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 865	Posted - 2015.03.01 08:24:53 - [188] - Quote Drodecas wrote: In bigger engagements the proposed changes will have little effect. As In a big Ishtar blob a lot of drones are not triggering as the target is already dead. for medium sized fleets <60 Ishtars it wil. The problem with the Ishtar is that it enganges all types of target from 0-120km, This will not change. To make a ishtar that is less hard to counter do one of the following: 1 Remove the tracking bonus: Can now sigtank them and orbit the drones more easy. 2 Remove the optimal range: long range ships have the ability to engange them. 3 Reduce the targeting range: long range ships have the ability to engange them. Damps are more effective. 4 Get rid of the ishtar's sentries. It's the OP thing they are deploying. Removing them from non BS hulls will fix many things.
Bogdo Lama Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 0	Posted - 2015.03.01 11:16:11 - [189] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Would rather have seen the ishtar lose the sentries entirely. Imo ishtar always had too big drone bay for that hull size. Id make it bandwith 100m3 and 125m3 bay. So would be only 4 sentry and no spare sets.
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 985	Posted - 2015.03.01 11:42:52 - [190] - Quote Having kept up with tis thread I now firmly believe that the sentry range and tracking bonuses need to be switched to heavy drones. This adresses the drop and go tactics as the fit would need severe changes to get the same performance from sentries but as a heavy drone platform it would be awesome. Rather than make many changes to an existing hull to nerf it to death I would rather change it's role bonuses slightly to make non-sentry drones much more attractive. No doubt people would start complaining about tarball fleets of dual webbed ishtars warping to 0 on them but at least they couldn't complain about not being able to shoot back!
Drone Plague Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2015.03.01 11:48:10 - [191] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Would rather have seen the ishtar lose the sentries entirely. Drone doctrine should be scaled which would remove sentries from Ishtars altogether i.e. T1 Frigates = Up to Light drones - No bonus T1 Frigates (Gallente) = Up to Light drones + Small Gallente Bonus T2 Frigates = Up to Light drones - Bonus on Light drones only T2 Frigates (Gallente) = Up to Light drones - Bonus on Light drones only + Small Gallente bonus T1 Destroyers = No drones T2 Destroyers = No drones T1 Cruisers = Up to Medium drones - No bonus T1 Cruisers (Gallente) = Up to Medium drones + Small Gallente Bonus T2 Cruisers = Up to Medium drones - Bonus on Mediums T2 Cruisers (Gallente) = Up to Medium drones - Bonus on Mediums + Small Gallente bonus T1 BattleCruisers = Up to Heavy drones - Bonus on Lights and Mediums T1 BattleCruisers (Gallente) = Up to Heavy drones - Bonus on Lights and Mediums + Small Gallente Bonus T2 BattleCruisers = Up to Heavy drones - Bonus on Lights and Mediums only T2 BattleCruisers (Gallente) = Up to Heavy drones - Bonus on Lights and Mediums only + Small Gallente bonus T1 Battleships = Up to Sentries drones - Bonus on all up to Heavies T1 Battleships (Gallente) = Up to Sentries drones - Bonus on all up to Heavies + Small Gallente Bonus T2 Battleships = Up to Sentries drones - Bonus on all up to Sentries T2 Battleships (Gallente) = Up to Sentries drones - Bonus on all up to Sentries + Small Gallente bonus Carriers = Fighters and sentries Bonus on both Supers = Fighters and Fighter Bombers Bonus on both
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 985	Posted - 2015.03.01 12:19:43 - [192] - Quote BC's should always be able to use sentried as they are designed to either have higher tank with medium guns or sacrifice tank for larger guns. No reason why this shouldn't include sentries. And why remove drones from destroyers? The algos would be completely gutted by that for a start.
Tineoidea Asanari Heeresversuchsanstalt The Bastion 37	Posted - 2015.03.01 14:46:24 - [193] - Quote Easy fix for sentrys: Make them lose tracking and/or range the more far away they are from their host.
Rroff Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 928	Posted - 2015.03.01 14:53:33 - [194] - Quote Tineoidea Asanari wrote: Easy fix for sentrys: Make them lose tracking and/or range the more far away they are from their host. Thats not a bad idea but likely to significantly increase server load. I wonder if both sentries and fighters should have the "proper" tracking formula like titans where signature difference have more weighting (then give drone bs some bonus towards that) doesn't entirely fix ishtars but does reduce their sentry use to being most effective against larger targets.
Ben Ishikela 19	Posted - 2015.03.01 18:13:17 - [195] - Quote Tineoidea Asanari wrote: Easy fix for sentrys: Make them lose tracking and/or range the more far away they are from their host. That i like. Also take the SUM of distance from target plus distance form host to determine if the target is still in control range. +1 to everything that sugests things like: heavyDrones20m3, ishtar100mbit and boost to heavies. No more nerfing of percieved Overpowered Content! It makes a game boring after too many iterations. Instead add new modules or ships that can use tactics and strategies to fight the current Meta.
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 10	Posted - 2015.03.01 20:02:51 - [196] - Quote Removing sentries from cruisers or entirely would change the very nature of these drone boats. It would be like removing the range bonus from an Eagle. Mobile drones, ie non-sentry, are brawlers. They have to move into range, and are vulnerable to being easily destroyed with smart bombs. I don't do large scale fleets, but from everything I read about it seems to be a long range game these days. If you remove a ships ability to fight from range then you have drastically changed that ship. Mobile drones are a close range weapon, sentries are ranged. Doesn't matter where the ship itself is. There are many interesting ideas about keeping sentries, as should be the case. The only other option would be some large buffs to mobile drones which would likely make them OP in PvE and smaller scale PvP. The two things I see complained about late in this thread are the drop and run behavior and the good tracking from a stationary sentry. Some have suggested limiting the range a ship can be from their drones, this idea has some merit but it also a significant nerf to the very mobile nature of PvP. What if Sentries were no longer stationary? What if sentries followed their owner? Give them good speed since they would not move independently. They keep being a ranged weapon. But the faster the owner is moving and more transversal he has the worse the sentry is going to perform. Now you have a versatile ship with all the benefits of a drone boat, only drop and run is gone. And tracking is much more meaningful as the drones movement affects it. Battleships often sit still so this will not affect them. Mobile ships would have to move around like other ships do in order to apply their damage most effectively.
Tineoidea Asanari Heeresversuchsanstalt The Bastion 38	Posted - 2015.03.01 20:19:31 - [197] - Quote Terra Chrall wrote: What if Sentries were no longer stationary? Then you can juste make them (or drones in general) vulernable to tractor beams. Would be hell of a fun :D
Altrue Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective 1643	Posted - 2015.03.01 21:38:20 - [198] - Quote What if sentry ceased to have incredible tracking, what if they required their owner to remain close to them (10km) to properly function? As it stands currently, a ~17% nerf is plainly ridiculous. Signature Tanking Best Tanking
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 176	Posted - 2015.03.02 01:02:50 - [199] - Quote An unpopular thought but here it is since a DEV asked for thoughts.. Nerf this, drop that, reduce something else some or all of these MAY help in PvP but any or all of the would trash the Ishtar as a PvE ship. I have said this in many threads on this topic, remove the ability to assign drones to assist another ship. And remove the aggressive mode. Both of these require the Ishtar itself to stay on the battle field to actively control it's drones making it more vulnerable. When combined with the reduced hit points and damage coming in the next release these would be the next logical step to take.
Jack Miton Isogen 5 4217	Posted - 2015.03.02 01:30:47 - [200] - Quote It's not enough but it's a start Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/
AspiB'elt Les chevaliers de l'ordre Goonswarm Federation 17	Posted - 2015.03.02 07:26:09 - [201] - Quote Hi CCP Rise About balancing on the ishtar. I am not very happy about them. Because you don't correct the main problem. I explain to you. When you have a fleet of ishtar you have already enough alpha to kill bs. If you remove some part of the damage bonus on sentry. You still have the alpha to kill BS ( a little less dps but still enough). Where is the problem with sentry and isthar ? The problem are you can launch sentry and go away. With your balance you don't change the main problem. It's still possible to do that. Pls. Make this modification and all sentry. Sentry control range 10 km. You can still shoot at X km (depend the type of sentry). But if the position of your ship is more then 10 km you lose the control on them. In this case you cannot launch sentry and go away.
Tineoidea Asanari Heeresversuchsanstalt The Bastion 38	Posted - 2015.03.02 08:07:29 - [202] - Quote Donnachadh wrote: I have said this in many threads on this topic, remove the ability to assign drones to assist another ship. And remove the aggressive mode. Both of these require the Ishtar itself to stay on the battle field to actively control it's drones making it more vulnerable. When combined with the reduced hit points and damage coming in the next release these would be the next logical step to take. Both of these thoughts tell me you never fought with Ishtar something bigger than a rat. Drones in fleets - or PvP in general - are passive, as you want to control who is attacked. And with the limitation of 25 drones per bunny, the usage of dronebunnys has mostly stopped at all. So 2 points you want to "remove" are points, that would have no effect at all.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 656	Posted - 2015.03.02 10:41:38 - [203] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Would rather have seen the ishtar lose the sentries entirely. This, my god I am actually agreeing with baltec1 on something... Ella's Snack bar
Canenald Jump Drive Appreciation Society Test Alliance Please Ignore 51	Posted - 2015.03.02 10:56:40 - [204] - Quote This sounded cool at first but the more I think about the sentry bonus nerf the more wrong it seems. There's a whole class of ships called HACs to which Ishtar belongs. They are generally well balanced. Of all those ships, only the Ishtar is a problem. Why? Obviously the problem is in the weapons system it specializes in, the drones. They have versatility in damage type and range/dps ratio. They apply damage well with tracking bonuses and are very resistant to ewar compared to turrets and missile launchers. Their tracking is not influenced by ship's movement, allowing sig/speed tanking without ruining their damage application. Now, sentries are the best drones because they don't have to travel around to apply their damage. Nerfing Ishtar's sentry bonus seems like a crude way to solve the problem. It's like curing the symptom. You're introducing an exception to a well balanced system just to nerf a weapon system which has clear advantages over the others. This can't lead to good things. Rather than nerfing the bonus for specific type of drones, can't you do something about the bonus in general? Gurista faction ships have been rebalanced in a good way, giving bonus to only the drones of specific size. How about doing something similar for non-pirate t1 and t2 cruisers? My idea is to make non-pirate drone cruisers give drone bonuses only to drones belonging to the same faction. Vexor and Ishtar would only give bonus to Hobgoblins, Hammerheads, Ogres and Gardes. Arbitrator would only give bonuses to Acolytes, Infitrators, Praetors and Curators. This would leave Vexors, VNIs and Ishtars as good brawling cruisers while also not nerfing their PVE role as high-dps, sig/speed tanking ships that can solo most things that can be soloed in PVE. I wouldn't apply this to smaller drone boats because their limited drone capacity makes them not part of the sentry problem. Also, don't touch BCs and BSs because they already have limited PVP applications.
Spugg Galdon APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front 621	Posted - 2015.03.02 13:02:33 - [205] - Quote This fixes nothing and only compounds the problem of "moar dudes = win". Or the counter to an Ishtar fleet is still Ishtar +1
Samillian Angry Mustellid The Periphery 718	Posted - 2015.03.02 13:41:19 - [206] - Quote Aiyshimin wrote: This will achieve the goal of making Ishtars less useful, but unfortunately does nothing to make other ships useful. Range and speed are overpowered in EVE, and only doctrines with damage projection and mobility work. In other words, people will just use the next platform that outranges others while remaining mobile, leaving whole shipclasses gathering dust in hangars. Sums up the problem, until this is addressed nothing will really change. NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 10008	Posted - 2015.03.02 13:48:05 - [207] - Quote Don't have much to say about this except this question: Why is it this company (that is known for heavy handed nerfing of everything in sight on the slightest whim) spending all this time (soon to be measured in YEARS) tip-toeing around Ishtars and Sentry Drones?
Julius Foederatus Spiritus Draconis 250	Posted - 2015.03.02 15:15:30 - [208] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Don't have much to say about this except this question: Why is it this company (that is known for heavy handed nerfing of everything in sight on the slightest whim) spending all this time (soon to be measured in YEARS) tip-toeing around Ishtars and Sentry Drones? Probably because they changed drone bonuses specifically because drone ships were ***** useless in fleet and even in most small gang pvp situations, and they don't want to completely go back to those days. Incidentally, it's a sentiment I share. I think if you just did a range and tracking nerf across the board on sentries (except Gardes), so that they couldn't really apply dps past 100km, except maybe with Wardens which have ** tracking, then you'd see less of a problem with people finding other ships to use in pvp situations. The problem with the Ishtar is it can hit out at too many different ranges. Wardens with 2x omnis hit out to 120km opt and almost 70km falloff. Those are numbers you can't get outside of the very top tier of BS sniper weapons, and those have absolutely abysmal tracking compared with the Warden's 0.024 on the Ishtar. One or both of these stats needs to be dialed down to be more or less in line with other weapons systems, although I do believe the drones should retain something of an edge since they're immobile and require a lot of risk to pick up, or extra drones in the hold to adapt to the battlefield.
Aiyshimin Fistful of Finns Triumvirate. 421	Posted - 2015.03.02 19:12:11 - [209] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Don't have much to say about this except this question: Why is it this company (that is known for heavy handed nerfing of everything in sight on the slightest whim) spending all this time (soon to be measured in YEARS) tip-toeing around Ishtars and Sentry Drones? Probably because Ishtars really aren't that broken.
Liner Xiandra Sparks Inc 360	Posted - 2015.03.02 19:19:24 - [210] - Quote Chiming in to say that nerfing damage does not address the problems that CCP Rise laid out in the devblog, namely: CCP Rise's devblog wrote: The problem: Ishtars are too good. They are squashing out diversity in several environments because of their excellent damage projection and solid survivability Whereas baltec1 wrote: Would rather have seen the ishtar lose the sentries entirely. This would at least address this.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1102	Posted - 2015.03.02 20:05:20 - [211] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Don't have much to say about this except this question: Why is it this company (that is known for heavy handed nerfing of everything in sight on the slightest whim) spending all this time (soon to be measured in YEARS) tip-toeing around Ishtars and Sentry Drones? cos they have stopped heavy nerfing these days, its more tiny nerfs over many patches at best or the odd little nerf and move on to something else and leave it neglected . Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone/fighter assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1102	Posted - 2015.03.02 20:12:30 - [212] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Cut sentry drone range by half. not sure by half, gardes might be a little too short range at that point, but certainly reducing optimal range by a good 20% would make sense, gardes might need a little more falloff though, kind of what there doing too bouncers but all round. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone/fighter assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1611	Posted - 2015.03.02 20:20:00 - [213] - Quote Harvey James wrote: Arthur Aihaken wrote: Cut sentry drone range by half. not sure by half, gardes might be a little too short range at that point, but certainly reducing optimal range by a good 20% would make sense, gardes might need a little more falloff though, kind of what there doing too bouncers but all round. People use blasters and you are telling me a base opti of 15KM at all V for a garde II would not be enough?
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 794	Posted - 2015.03.02 21:14:41 - [214] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Harvey James wrote: Arthur Aihaken wrote: Cut sentry drone range by half. not sure by half, gardes might be a little too short range at that point, but certainly reducing optimal range by a good 20% would make sense, gardes might need a little more falloff though, kind of what there doing too bouncers but all round. People use blasters and you are telling me a base opti of 15KM at all V for a garde II would not be enough? To be fair, those ranges are heavy drone territory.
Heinrich Rotwang Caldari Provisions Caldari State 61	Posted - 2015.03.02 22:29:51 - [215] - Quote How to balance sentries in a nutshell: - one-size-fits-all sentries + small sentries + medium sentries + heavy sentries Problem solved. You are trying to achieve the same result by fiddling with the ship boni. PS: and btw, the answer to the question, whether the problem of the Ishtar is in the ship or in the sentries, is: both. It's two unrelated problems that happen to be combined in the Ishtar when fielding sentries.
X Gallentius Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop 2804	Posted - 2015.03.03 00:49:56 - [216] - Quote afkalt wrote: To be fair, those ranges are heavy drone territory. Apparently Gardes are for POS bashes, not mobile PvP. JUSTK is recruiting.
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 177	Posted - 2015.03.03 03:01:26 - [217] - Quote Tineoidea Asanari wrote: Both of these thoughts tell me you never fought with Ishtar something bigger than a rat. Drones in fleets - or PvP in general - are passive, as you want to control who is attacked. And with the limitation of 25 drones per bunny, the usage of dronebunnys has mostly stopped at all. So 2 points you want to "remove" are points, that would have no effect at all. And you would be wrong. I not only fly the Ishtar as PvE but I have another character that flies logi in a PvP low sec corp and we NEVER have the troubles you all are talking about. Granted that we never face the fleet sizes that may show up in nul but we have still easily defeated fleets of up to 30 Ishtar plus support ships, and that does give me a solid base for understanding the Ishtar and it's uses. All of that set aside if you would carefully read my post I did not say that my changes in combination with those recently announced "would" solve the problem I stated that it was "the next logical step." Because at the end of the day PvP and PvE pilots all share a common pool of ships and modules, and the needs of those PvE players MUST be considered in any changes that are made. The reductions to control range, damage output, tracking and the rest if implemented would have a significantly larger impact on the Ishtar's use as a PvE ship than it would in the PvP environment. In the end IF the more radical changes being proposed are required to achieve balance then so be it we will go down that path. But for now small and incremental changes that have as little impact as possible on the legitimate PvE uses of the Ishtar / sentry drones need to be tried first and removing assist and aggressive mode are two of those low PvE impact possibilities.
Crynsos Cealion Matari Munitions The Obsidian Front 24	Posted - 2015.03.03 03:06:50 - [218] - Quote Perhaps the real fixing of Ishtars needs to be something more drastic, like changing their role entirely. The previous fix was something you could feel in both PvE and PvP, but obviously not enough to balance out the many advantages of sentries with enough drawbacks to make them not quite as powerful. The main issue lies probably not with the damage Ishtars are able to deal, but with their ability to apply too much of said damage at far too long ranges with far too much precision, while being almost entirely able to decide damage type, being largely EWAR immune and having the unique ability among T2/T3s to project damage from a position without actually having to be at said position. Short of a remote ECM Burst-like EWAR type to have a chance based ability to randomly disconnect drones (and keep them disconnected for a while), not much will change that. So how about cutting the most problematic bonus completely out of the Ishtar, the sentry range and tracking bonus? Ishtars can be still plenty powerful via using heavy drones, though in this case the damage is generally harder to apply, delayed and easier to kill off than in the case of sentries. They would still have a lot of DPS for a HAC out to a good range, but this type of damage application is much more limited and has a good amount of drawbacks, while being more faithful to the "Drones everywhere" instead of "Drones turned turrets everywhere" way the Ishtar should be. It might also make heavy drones much more viable to fly with in general, just like how the Gila increased the usefulness of Medium Drones massively. Ishtars are usually used as kiting ships, but are actually the slowest among the HACs, so maybe give them a speed bonus to compensate for the lost drone bonus? Active repping would be also a possibility, but seeing as there is already the Deimos, this may not be such a good idea. A turret bonus probably wouldn't make much sense either, though it is a possibility.
Tineoidea Asanari Heeresversuchsanstalt The Bastion 39	Posted - 2015.03.03 07:44:04 - [219] - Quote Donnachadh wrote: And you would be wrong. I not only fly the Ishtar as PvE but I have another character that flies logi in a PvP low sec corp and we NEVER have the troubles you all are talking about. Granted that we never face the fleet sizes that may show up in nul but we have still easily defeated fleets of up to 30 Ishtar plus support ships, and that does give me a solid base for understanding the Ishtar and it's uses. You just said that I'm right. You never fought something bigger than a rat whilst using an Ishtar. You dont even understand the problematics that are existing with the current version of the Ishtar, as you proposed changes that wouldnt change anything about your carebear behaviour and "nerf" aspects that are not the problematic part of Ishtars Online right now. You aren't even polite enough to read this thread, otherwise you would have known the issue about ishtars is their "drop and forget" mechanic. No, you just want to scream that nobody has a right to nerf your PvE ship and you dont give a damn about PvP balancing. Quote: In the end IF the more radical changes being proposed are required to achieve balance then so be it we will go down that path. But for now small and incremental changes that have as little impact as possible on the legitimate PvE uses of the Ishtar / sentry drones need to be tried first and removing assist and aggressive mode are two of those low PvE impact possibilities. I have not seen one fleet since the removal of the old drone assist that used this (besides PvE in wormholes). Also, AGAIN, NOBODY uses aggressive drones with Sentrys in PVP. Your view as "logi" on an "alt" is completly irrelevant, as you are not understanding at all, how these fleets work and what they do when they do it. As I said before, you only care about your PvE content. You dont care at all about balancing PvP, thus you propose changes that not affect your PvE content and are changes that just change stuff, without any reason.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 796	Posted - 2015.03.03 08:19:55 - [220] - Quote Tineoidea Asanari wrote: As I said before, you only care about your PvE content. You dont care at all about balancing PvP, thus you propose changes that not affect your PvE content and are changes that just change stuff, without any reason. Plus the only things I've seen survive 30+ ishtars volleying at them long enough to hold reps are the poster children of well balanced ships - linked T3s. Other ships, reps can catch, but there is bleed through the hardened tier. You're looking at a 60k volley from those numbers.
Xequecal GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 270	Posted - 2015.03.03 09:20:44 - [221] - Quote How to fix Ishtars: Give them a natural counter. Right now they out range literally anything that isn't shooting directly into their T2 resists, which is the major problem. Ishtars are naturally weak to lasers but there is no medium laser platform that has the range to hit them and the laser battleships aren't viable due to Tachyons taking too much fitting. Give the zealot a second optimal bonus instead of the cap bonus or even the damage bonus, and you've got a great counter. Rails can get double optimal bonuses, why not lasers?
Spugg Galdon APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front 622	Posted - 2015.03.03 09:43:59 - [222] - Quote As has been said by a few others: I feel without any kind of EWAR to attack a drone ship with we will always have the Sentry Drone problem. We need an EWAR type that can reduce a ships drone control range or jam their connection to the drones. This sounds like it could even be the secondary EWAR for Caldari. It would fit in. If not this kind of option then..... Drop the sentry drone bonus from the Ishtar and the VNI and concentrate on making heavy drones very useful to them. Make the heavy drones super fast and track very well by dropping the sentry drone tracking and optimal bonus for a secondary drone velocity and tracking bonus.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 796	Posted - 2015.03.03 10:15:07 - [223] - Quote Xequecal wrote: Rails can get double optimal bonuses, why not lasers? Because LOLScorch, unfortunately. Ed: Cerbs with rainbow damage might manage it, but they dont have full rainbow.
ImageQuest Caldari Provisions Caldari State 0	Posted - 2015.03.03 10:19:34 - [224] - Quote I can run 99% of ded plexes with ishtars in easy mode. If you give me tengu I will rather take ishtar because its faster and easier. Now tell me how are they not broken.
Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 14	Posted - 2015.03.03 10:37:24 - [225] - Quote ImageQuest wrote: I can run 99% of ded plexes with ishtars in easy mode. If you give me tengu I will rather take ishtar because its faster and easier. Now tell me how are they not broken. Same is true for nearly every ship able to shoot over 40km with good damage. Are all those ships 'broken'?
Xequecal GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 270	Posted - 2015.03.03 10:47:13 - [226] - Quote afkalt wrote: Xequecal wrote: Rails can get double optimal bonuses, why not lasers? Because LOLScorch, unfortunately. Ed: Cerbs with rainbow damage might manage it, but they dont have full rainbow. I fail to see what 36km Scorch would break that 30km Scorch already doesn't break.
Spugg Galdon APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front 622	Posted - 2015.03.03 11:03:20 - [227] - Quote Xequecal wrote: afkalt wrote: Xequecal wrote: Rails can get double optimal bonuses, why not lasers? Because LOLScorch, unfortunately. Ed: Cerbs with rainbow damage might manage it, but they dont have full rainbow. I fail to see what 36km Scorch would break that 30km Scorch already doesn't break. It breaks any laser ship without a range bonus trying to use beams (a long range weapon) to counter it. It would essentially hamstring any medium range ship. Which they already almost do. Range bonuses are a very powerful bonus. Double range bonuses to the same attribute are bonkers OP. Giving split range bonuses isn't so bad though. For example: The Muninn would probably do great with a 10% bonus to projectile optimal and falloff (and an extra gun slot)
Xequecal GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 270	Posted - 2015.03.03 13:07:37 - [228] - Quote Spugg Galdon wrote: Xequecal wrote: afkalt wrote: Xequecal wrote: Rails can get double optimal bonuses, why not lasers? Because LOLScorch, unfortunately. Ed: Cerbs with rainbow damage might manage it, but they dont have full rainbow. I fail to see what 36km Scorch would break that 30km Scorch already doesn't break. It breaks any laser ship without a range bonus trying to use beams (a long range weapon) to counter it. It would essentially hamstring any medium range ship. Which they already almost do. Range bonuses are a very powerful bonus. Double range bonuses to the same attribute are bonkers OP. Giving split range bonuses isn't so bad though. For example: The Muninn would probably do great with a 10% bonus to projectile optimal and falloff (and an extra gun slot) Double range bonuses aren't insanely OP. The Eagle and Vulture certainly aren't "insanely OP," there's no reason to think a Zealot with two range bonuses would be. The Tengu is overpowered, but it's not because of the range subsystem. In my opinion, the extremely niche situation of laser ships being unable to fit a direct counter to other laser ships is worth suffering in order to give the Ishtar an actual counter. They could remove the sentry damage bonus from the Ishtar entirely, but you still have the problem that, with the exception of the Apocalypse, the Ishtar outranges literally everything that doesn't deal kin/therm damage. Unfortunately, the Apocalypse isn't a viable hull because you need 3 fitting mods to fit Tachyons to it. Hell, it needs a CPU mod or faction hardeners to fit Megabeams. None of the Minmatar BS will work either, Proton L has a 96km optimal which is well outside the 130km range that Ishtars can shoot from.
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 589	Posted - 2015.03.03 22:37:06 - [229] - Quote Xequecal wrote: ... In my opinion, the extremely niche situation of laser ships being unable to fit a direct counter to other laser ships is worth suffering in order to give the Ishtar an actual counter. They could remove the sentry damage bonus from the Ishtar entirely, but you still have the problem that, with the exception of the Apocalypse, the Ishtar outranges literally everything that doesn't deal kin/therm damage. Unfortunately, the Apocalypse isn't a viable hull because you need 3 fitting mods to fit Tachyons to it. Hell, it needs a CPU mod or faction hardeners to fit Megabeams. None of the Minmatar BS will work either, Proton L has a 96km optimal which is well outside the 130km range that Ishtars can shoot from. Tach-Mare? The Nightmare with one tracking enhancer and one signal amplifier II has 100/130km range with Aurora L (not 100% sure with the range but I can look it up if you want) with the singnature of a hurricane. If you give your Nightmare pilot some strong x-tinct pills, she will no longer be underestimated as a pvp boat. signature
BTDubs Terran Dynamis 11	Posted - 2015.03.03 23:35:15 - [230] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Would rather have seen the ishtar lose the sentries entirely. The ability for Ishtars to drop sentries and the get out at the slightest hint of a fleet coming for them has given the Ishtar doctrine it's popularity. Many players complain about Ishtars for this reason and is a valid reason why Ishtars shouldn't have bonus's for sentries, or should not even be allowed to use sentries. Ishtars can do quiet a bit of damage, but the risk really isn't there for the pilots using them because they can just leave the field so easily. GÿàGÿàGÿàBTDub's Third Party ServiceGÿàGÿàGÿà In-Game Channel: The Dubs Hub
Onslaughtor Occult National Security Phoenix Naval Systems 106	Posted - 2015.03.04 01:20:16 - [231] - Quote With this change the ishtar would still be the undisputed top dog. Why lets take a quick look at the advantages and disavangates the ship gets. + battleship like damage + battleship ranges + application bonus + weapons can be ewar immune + ammo less + selectable damage + Fairly fast + t2 resists + Plenty of fitting space + extended drone range + weapon doesn't account for owners movement + damage protection can be instant + plenty of drone bay + large base shield ehp + high shield recharge rate + drone hitpoints - drones can be killed - drones can be abandoned ... there are so many pros to the cons and when you look at the cons its almost laughable how benign they are, and that goes double for sentries. A serious change to most any of those will do a lot more to bring the ship in line. The best ones in my opinion would be to make sentries have some kind of ammo, or make them affected by ewar like normal weapons.
Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 14	Posted - 2015.03.04 07:04:18 - [232] - Quote + battleship like damage // ever seen a BS with such low dmg? + battleship ranges // depends on the sentries used. Lower dmg with the BS- range ones + application bonus // as most ships for their weapon system + weapons can be ewar immune // they arent + ammo less // not enough cargo bay on your favorite ship? + selectable damage // same as missiles + Fairly fast / / slowest base speed of all HAC + t2 resists // its a HAC + Plenty of fitting space //badest one of all HAC. Enough though + extended drone range // its their primary weapon + weapon doesn't account for owners movement // sometimes good sometimes bad + damage protection can be instant // as with all systems except missiles + plenty of drone bay //All Hac got plenty of cargo bay for ammo + large base shield ehp // its in the lower half of all HAC + high shield recharge rate // a normal one + drone hitpoints // they REALLY need it! Except sentries - drones can be killed - drones can be abandoned
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 15367	Posted - 2015.03.04 07:35:19 - [233] - Quote Aplysia Vejun wrote: +ever seen a BS with such low dmg? - Yes, they have the same or more as most BS doctrines. + depends on the sentries used. Lower dmg with the BS- range ones - same damage + as most ships for their weapon system - Their tracking and application is much better + they arent - Depends + not enough cargo bay on your favorite ship? - We do run out of ammo on long ops + same as missiles - missiles can be firewalled + slowest base speed of all HAC - fast enough to avoid bombing runs and mitigate incoming damage. + badest one of all HAC. Enough though - They dont have to make room for weapons, so they do have the most fitting room. + its their primary weapon - its also overpowered on such a hull. + sometimes good sometimes bad - always good Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Spugg Galdon Aliastra Gallente Federation 622	Posted - 2015.03.04 11:00:51 - [234] - Quote What's the actual bottom line to this though? If my math is correct I see a simple shield kite fit Ishtar (with Bouncer II's) go from 620 dps @ approx 100km (drone control range) drop to 515 dps at the same range. I still feel this is simply too much. No other HAC can perform like this. It's battleship offensive performance with cruiser application and HAC mobility (warp speed, MWD sig reduction and speed). Battleships still struggle on grid to go toe to toe with this and they have all of their other drawbacks on top.
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 590	Posted - 2015.03.04 12:13:28 - [235] - Quote I just remembered something from the past and please forgive me if I bring up the past every once in a while. There used to be a weapon system with the exact range and damage requirement to account for this. Some of you might remember it, I quite seem to make head or tails but anyone who does, please jump in at any time. Anyhow this weapon system was some kind of a long range one that made the tengu and a battlecruiser popular, I just cannot remember which one.. Well the tengu had a subsystem for that weapon system and if I remember correctly the Cerberus and the tengu could have a range of 130km with that weapon system, not more but less 130km was a maximum value for that range. The sad thing is, it was deleted from EVE by someone and I always like to jog his memory too signature
Xequecal GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 270	Posted - 2015.03.04 12:23:42 - [236] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Xequecal wrote: ... In my opinion, the extremely niche situation of laser ships being unable to fit a direct counter to other laser ships is worth suffering in order to give the Ishtar an actual counter. They could remove the sentry damage bonus from the Ishtar entirely, but you still have the problem that, with the exception of the Apocalypse, the Ishtar outranges literally everything that doesn't deal kin/therm damage. Unfortunately, the Apocalypse isn't a viable hull because you need 3 fitting mods to fit Tachyons to it. Hell, it needs a CPU mod or faction hardeners to fit Megabeams. None of the Minmatar BS will work either, Proton L has a 96km optimal which is well outside the 130km range that Ishtars can shoot from. Tach-Mare? The Nightmare with one tracking enhancer and one signal amplifier II has 100/130km range with Aurora L (not 100% sure with the range but I can look it up if you want) with the singnature of a hurricane. If you give your Nightmare pilot some strong x-tinct pills, she will no longer be underestimated as a pvp boat. Ok, the pirate BS that costs more than four Ishtars works. Do you have any realistic suggestions?
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1613	Posted - 2015.03.04 14:03:06 - [237] - Quote Xequecal wrote: elitatwo wrote: Xequecal wrote: ... In my opinion, the extremely niche situation of laser ships being unable to fit a direct counter to other laser ships is worth suffering in order to give the Ishtar an actual counter. They could remove the sentry damage bonus from the Ishtar entirely, but you still have the problem that, with the exception of the Apocalypse, the Ishtar outranges literally everything that doesn't deal kin/therm damage. Unfortunately, the Apocalypse isn't a viable hull because you need 3 fitting mods to fit Tachyons to it. Hell, it needs a CPU mod or faction hardeners to fit Megabeams. None of the Minmatar BS will work either, Proton L has a 96km optimal which is well outside the 130km range that Ishtars can shoot from. Tach-Mare? The Nightmare with one tracking enhancer and one signal amplifier II has 100/130km range with Aurora L (not 100% sure with the range but I can look it up if you want) with the singnature of a hurricane. If you give your Nightmare pilot some strong x-tinct pills, she will no longer be underestimated as a pvp boat. Ok, the pirate BS that costs more than four Ishtars works. Do you have any realistic suggestions? In the category of "can do it but is a stupid idea", I nominate welp oracle.
Freelancer117 So you want to be a Hero 271	Posted - 2015.03.04 14:23:02 - [238] - Quote Quote: Old bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage New bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Light, Medium and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage Please also add: 5% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed The players will make a better version of the game, then CCP initially plans. http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg GÇÖChilde Roland to the Dark Tower came.GÇÖ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY3oMRLfArU
Rothar Luke Have Guns Will Travel SpaceMonkey's Alliance 2	Posted - 2015.03.04 15:42:13 - [239] - Quote I don't think this will change the use of the Ishtar in fleets enough.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 803	Posted - 2015.03.04 17:29:38 - [240] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Aplysia Vejun wrote: +ever seen a BS with such low dmg? - Yes, they have the same or more as most BS doctrines. + depends on the sentries used. Lower dmg with the BS- range ones - same damage + as most ships for their weapon system - Their tracking and application is much better + they arent - Depends + not enough cargo bay on your favorite ship? - We do run out of ammo on long ops + same as missiles - missiles can be firewalled + slowest base speed of all HAC - fast enough to avoid bombing runs and mitigate incoming damage. + badest one of all HAC. Enough though - They dont have to make room for weapons, so they do have the most fitting room. + its their primary weapon - its also overpowered on such a hull. + sometimes good sometimes bad - always good You forgot can fit an oversized prop mod ON TOP of a completely normal fit WITHOUT fitting mods.
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 1994	Posted - 2015.03.05 09:47:27 - [241] - Quote Xequecal wrote: How to fix Ishtars: Give them a natural counter. Right now they out range literally anything that isn't shooting directly into their T2 resists, which is the major problem. Ishtars are naturally weak to lasers but there is no medium laser platform that has the range to hit them and the laser battleships aren't viable due to Tachyons taking too much fitting. Give the zealot a second optimal bonus instead of the cap bonus or even the damage bonus, and you've got a great counter. Rails can get double optimal bonuses, why not lasers? Just buffing battleships fittings in general would also achieve that. Make arti boats and apocs be able to fit the large gusn more easily while still fielding a tank and suddenly ishtars take heavy losses on the fight. But still.. the ishtar outclassed ALL other hacs and it needed a serious nerf. "If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!" For the rest hire PoH \| Recruitment
GREYBOBSASS Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 28	Posted - 2015.03.05 12:14:27 - [242] - Quote current state of ishtars is pretty much summed upo in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzAdx8tWhvY
Spugg Galdon Aliastra Gallente Federation 624	Posted - 2015.03.05 15:25:55 - [243] - Quote Would it be terrible if the Ishtar and the Eos swapped bonuses? I mean, look at the two. The Eos would be great (but not OP due to lack of mids) and the Ishtar would receive the nerf it deserves. Ishtar: Gallente cruiser skill bonus per level: 10% bonus to drone hitpoint and damage 7.5% bonus to hybrid turret tracking speed HAC skill bonus per level: 7.5% bonus to Heavy drone tracking 7.5% bonus to Heavy drone max velocity Eos: Gallente Battlecruiser skill bonus per level: 10% bonus to drone hitpoint and damage 7.5% bonus to armour repairer amount Command ship skill bonus per level: 7.5% bonus to Drone optimal range and Tracking 5km bonus to drone control range Would this be terrible or would it not simply fix the Ishtar problem but give all the PvE'rs and others the Ishtar capability in a heavier, slower package that favours armour over speed? The VNI can also stay as is as it's not as bonkers as the Ishtar and this would also differentiate it fully from the Ishtar instead of just being a crappy, baby Ishtar
Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 14	Posted - 2015.03.05 17:08:51 - [244] - Quote This would certainly solve the Big-Fleet-PVP problem. It would make it crap in pve too though (heavy drones get killed too fast / really bad tank for the now exclusive melee ishtar)
Khan Wrenth Hedion University Amarr Empire 116	Posted - 2015.03.06 09:55:21 - [245] - Quote Spugg Galdon wrote: Would it be terrible if the Ishtar and the Eos swapped bonuses? I mean, look at the two. The Eos would be great (but not OP due to lack of mids) and the Ishtar would receive the nerf it deserves. Ishtar: Gallente cruiser skill bonus per level: 10% bonus to drone hitpoint and damage 7.5% bonus to hybrid turret tracking speed HAC skill bonus per level: 7.5% bonus to Heavy drone tracking 7.5% bonus to Heavy drone max velocity Eos: Gallente Battlecruiser skill bonus per level: 10% bonus to drone hitpoint and damage 7.5% bonus to armour repairer amount Command ship skill bonus per level: 7.5% bonus to Drone optimal range and Tracking 5km bonus to drone control range Would this be terrible or would it not simply fix the Ishtar problem but give all the PvE'rs and others the Ishtar capability in a heavier, slower package that favours armour over speed? The VNI can also stay as is as it's not as bonkers as the Ishtar and this would also differentiate it fully from the Ishtar instead of just being a crappy, baby Ishtar This seems rather reasonable. As someone in...either this thread or another thread I have lost track because there's been so many of these over the years...anyway as someone said once, the EOS could potentially replace Ishtars for the spamming of sentry drones. But Battlecruisers, and especially command battlecruisers which require charisma, take a lot longer to train. So people are less likely to train for them en masse. Will some? Absolutely. But the EOS has a lot less mobility, making the use of it a lot more balanced than an Ishtar. However, this still doesn't solve a fundamental problem: Sentry drones still don't belong in the game. They have all of the advantages of drones, with almost none of the drawbacks. Their innate nature unbalances power dynamics within classes. As I've said previously, that an ishtar can put out a flight of kinetic drones, or EM drones, negates the entirety of two other sniper HACs. Sentry drones have pure damage selection, long range, no ammo, no cap, (mostly) immune from EWAR (you'd have to ewar all 5 at once to actually have the same effect as EWAR-ing a single turret ship), aggression independent of being able to lock, instant damage application, up to 50 can be assigned to a single trigger ship...they're better than turrets or missiles in dang near every way. Their drawbacks are highly limited and mostly mitigated through good piloting and fleet tactics. Everything that balances drones, missiles, and turrets goes out the window with sentries. They will, by their very nature, NEVER be balanced in this game. They can't be because they provide most or all of the best parts of both turrets and missiles at the same time. As a person who, yes, has invested in Ishtars and sentries, both in isk and in training, I don't have a doubt in my mind that this game would be better off without sentries. I want them gone. Even if, and especially because, it'll hurt my PvE and PvP abilities, which with sentries, are far too one-sided. Everything is just so easy with sentries. For clarity, I should say yes, I'm aware sentries and ishtars are fully beatable. I've never said they were invincible. Just that they offer far too many advantages without the sorts of drawbacks that keep other weapon systems balanced. HTFU.-á Adapt or die.-á Beware the falcon punch.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1103	Posted - 2015.03.06 13:22:17 - [246] - Quote Rise you still haven't confirmed whether this 5% sentry dps/HP is applied too all sub battleships or not? e.g. the VNI could out dps the ishtar if you don't Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone/fighter assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 834	Posted - 2015.03.06 13:27:47 - [247] - Quote Khan Wrenth wrote: Everything that balances drones, missiles, and turrets goes out the window with sentries. They will, by their very nature, NEVER be balanced in this game. They can't be because they provide most or all of the best parts of both turrets and missiles at the same time. Actually, non application bonused sentries are about right. Certainly balancable.
Khan Wrenth Hedion University Amarr Empire 116	Posted - 2015.03.06 16:05:52 - [248] - Quote afkalt wrote: Actually, non application bonused sentries are about right. Certainly balancable. Hmm, an interesting idea. To take it a step further (I don't think this is quite where you wanted to go with this, but bear with me), what about exempting sentry drones from all bonuses, module and hull alike? (skill bonuses still apply) There are weapon systems in this game that are never granted bonuses, because "they are perfect where they are, they are not in need of bonused hulls or modules to make them work right", i.e. smartbombs. If we remove all module and hull bonuses, we end up with sentry drones that have some real compromises. Currently, a basic fit Ishtar out DPS's anything an Eagle fit can do (this is before the Railgun nerf, go figure) at any meaningful range, and where the Eagle out-ranges an Ishtar, it becomes little more than a tickle. Hence, sentries making other HACs obsolete. BUT! Given the immense advantages sentry drones have, if we remove any hull or module bonuses from effecting them, they become much easier to balance as units, and then their DPS and tracking come down to a level where you can make serious considerations if you want to field Eagles or Ishtars. As units that have serious EWAR, range, cap, damage selectability, and ammo advantages over guns, it would only make sense that they would have less DPS and application. We would have to then do slight buffs to the base stats (in range and tracking) of some of the sentries because some of them don't have the range or tracking to be usable just on their stats alone. And the other sentry drones might need some nerfs to help flatten out the curve a bit. But it could work...dare I say it could work really well, in fact. HTFU.-á Adapt or die.-á Beware the falcon punch.
Skir Skor Stay Frosty. A Band Apart. 15	Posted - 2015.03.08 04:57:06 - [249] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: This change is being made to encourage diversity in ship choice across EVE. At the moment BC/BS are in a pretty bad spot, which is a real shame. Nobody is going to change from an Ishtar to a Mym/Domi with this pass, I can't see how you expect more diversity when the only change is a reduction to sentry drone dps.
Lone Hitman The Praxis Initiative Gentlemen's Agreement 2	Posted - 2015.03.08 06:56:59 - [250] - Quote How about if there were multiple sizes of Sentry Drones (like there are for combat drones) and their base damage and tracking is adjusted to a level consistent with their size. Then Ishtars should only get bonuses for the medium ones... and it might be able to stay at +10% damage per HAC level as long as the medium sentries' base DPS is considerably worse than heavy combat drones.
Asa Shahni Doughboys Snuffed Out 57	Posted - 2015.03.08 11:58:50 - [251] - Quote 1- remove 5% tracking bonus to sentry and replace it by 5% damage bonus so it become 5% to optimal and damage 2- change the 10% damage bonus so it only affect heavy, light and medium drones 3- remove a mid and add a low (let's be honest you guys cling to that 5mid bull **** and avoid talking about it even if its one of the most OP thing on this ship) 4- remove control range bonus and add 4% armor bonus Problem solved you have a normal hac with the role it should have since the first change not that stupid kiting 5 mid monster you gave us for no damn reason.
Tiddle Jr Galvanized Inc. 74	Posted - 2015.03.08 23:03:28 - [252] - Quote - sentry bonus, as it was proposed many times before as of now it's stupiditly way to solid combination but i personally think that it's really high-end of gallente military scince and CreDrone technoligies. Which is simply means Gal's are the kings of the hill. Too bad such an amazing piece of combat art has to be inhume.
TerminalSamurai Sunji the explosive bureau 10	Posted - 2015.03.10 17:04:03 - [253] - Quote I'm sure this has been stated, didn't take the time to read the whole thread. One of the most blatant things that I see in respect to the Ishtar compared to the other HACs is the fact that the Ishtar has way too many bonuses. Forget about the fittings for a minute. Compare the Ishtar to the Deimos: Ishtar: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage 7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and [/b ]tracking speed Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level): 5000m bonus to Drone operation range 5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range [b]and tracking speed Deimos: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 7.5% bonus to Armor Repairer amount Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level): 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage 10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret falloff Muninn Minmatar Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire 5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret optimal range 7.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret tracking speed Looking at HAC's on a whole, most have 4 bonuses (Not counting the role bonus), others have 3 (such as the Deimos), the Ishtar has a blatant 5, which could be argued higher in some cases. When you directly compare the Ishtar hull to all other HAC hulls (Without looking at bonuses) On paper it is a sub par ship. The only logical thing to point to are the hull bonuses. Given the bonuses of the hull currently, there is little reason to fit more than 2 omni tracking, and I can't say I've seen any reason to fit a drone link augmenter, which is the reason why it's so open for utility/survivability fits. One should not be able to maximize dps from a hull without sacrificing other aspects of it.
Adriana Nolen Sama Guild 51	Posted - 2015.03.10 20:45:09 - [254] - Quote Rise, instead of this, just remove sentry bonus completely from Ishtar. Bump up light/med/heavy dmg to 12.5 per level.
Chance Ravinne WiNGSPAN Delivery Services 122	Posted - 2015.03.11 19:17:38 - [255] - Quote Spugg Galdon wrote: Would it be terrible if the Ishtar and the Eos swapped bonuses? I mean, look at the two. The Eos would be great (but not OP due to lack of mids) and the Ishtar would receive the nerf it deserves. Ishtar: Gallente cruiser skill bonus per level: 10% bonus to drone hitpoint and damage 7.5% bonus to hybrid turret tracking speed HAC skill bonus per level: 7.5% bonus to Heavy drone tracking 7.5% bonus to Heavy drone max velocity Eos: Gallente Battlecruiser skill bonus per level: 10% bonus to drone hitpoint and damage 7.5% bonus to armour repairer amount Command ship skill bonus per level: 7.5% bonus to Drone optimal range and Tracking 5km bonus to drone control range Would this be terrible or would it not simply fix the Ishtar problem but give all the PvE'rs and others the Ishtar capability in a heavier, slower package that favours armour over speed? The VNI can also stay as is as it's not as bonkers as the Ishtar and this would also differentiate it fully from the Ishtar instead of just being a crappy, baby Ishtar A very sexy suggestion. You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 14	Posted - 2015.03.11 22:22:28 - [256] - Quote Not really, no. It would make another brawler of the ishtar. One with a bad hull for it ( compared with the deimos). Slow, not enough CPU and power to even fill all slots. AND it kills its role as a drone only ship.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1105	Posted - 2015.03.11 23:18:03 - [257] - Quote Aplysia Vejun wrote: Not really, no. It would make another brawler of the ishtar. One with a bad hull for it ( compared with the deimos). Slow, not enough CPU and power to even fill all slots. AND it kills its role as a drone only ship. ishtar as a brawler is just a bad idea, the gila would trump it every time comfortably. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic, nerf sentries. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
Skia Aumer Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC 135	Posted - 2015.03.12 11:15:25 - [258] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Too much? Too little? Let us know. It has been discussed numerous times, and I thought consensus was found. Sentry drones are the problem. Hulls only emphasize it. If hulls are not viable (like battlecruisers, for example), they will still be pretty much useless with or without sentry drones. But when you put them on a viable hull (like HAC is this case, or a carrier) - it becomes really OP. So, lets reconsider the sentries. They have serious advantages over other weapon systems: - instant damage (no delay like missiles and normal drones); - very good DPS; - insane range and tracking; - dont use cap or charges; - dont explicitly use fitting slots and PG/CPU. To counterweight, they have a ~huge~ disadvantage, lets say it aloud: - drones can be destroyed. That balance could work - in theory - but in practice it doesnt. With full skills, your sentry drone sports up to 8k EHP. Ishtar can fit 3 packs, so it's total of 120k EHP in drones! Double as much as the Ishtar itself. And at 1/10th of it's price. Furthermore, it can resupply drones from cargo bay, from POS or station... So shooting drones one-by-one is a really stupid idea. Smartbombs dont work, their area of effect is too small. The only real counter is stealth bombers. But 1) Many advocate that SBs are OP. True or not - but SBs are a counter for many formats, sentry or not. 2) You cannot have a luxury of support fleet in small to medium warfare. 3) If you field SBs, enemy Ishtars can field anti-bomber support (dictors mainly). You risk to welp the SB squad, Ishars risk to lose drones. Can you call it a fair tradeoff? 4) Lowsec. Now, CCP Rise, could you answer if my speculations are valid, and if not - why?
Spugg Galdon Nisroc Angels 627	Posted - 2015.03.12 13:18:37 - [259] - Quote Harvey James wrote: Aplysia Vejun wrote: Not really, no. It would make another brawler of the ishtar. One with a bad hull for it ( compared with the deimos). Slow, not enough CPU and power to even fill all slots. AND it kills its role as a drone only ship. ishtar as a brawler is just a bad idea, the gila would trump it every time comfortably. This is nonsensical rubbish. The Ishtar is actually a good brawler. It can be dual rep fit It can be 1600mm plate fit It can be shield gank fit Even if it traded it's bonuses with the Eos it wouldn't lose it's ability to field 5 damgage bonused sentries. It would simply lose the projection and application. This is what the Ishtar needs. It needs to get it's legs cut out from under it but give it some arms to punch with Currently, I turn to the Ishtar for just about everything except hacking and mining. It's so good at everything it's bonkers
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1106	Posted - 2015.03.12 13:33:26 - [260] - Quote Spugg Galdon wrote: Harvey James wrote: Aplysia Vejun wrote: Not really, no. It would make another brawler of the ishtar. One with a bad hull for it ( compared with the deimos). Slow, not enough CPU and power to even fill all slots. AND it kills its role as a drone only ship. ishtar as a brawler is just a bad idea, the gila would trump it every time comfortably. This is nonsensical rubbish. The Ishtar is actually a good brawler. It can be dual rep fit It can be 1600mm plate fit It can be shield gank fit Even if it traded it's bonuses with the Eos it wouldn't lose it's ability to field 5 damgage bonused sentries. It would simply lose the projection and application. This is what the Ishtar needs. It needs to get it's legs cut out from under it but give it some arms to punch with Currently, I turn to the Ishtar for just about everything except hacking and mining. It's so good at everything it's bonkers i didn't say it can't be a good brawler, just that it would lose its greatest asset too be a second best droneship instead, so actually no its quite sensible comment. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic, nerf sentries. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
Spugg Galdon Nisroc Angels 627	Posted - 2015.03.12 16:51:22 - [261] - Quote The Gila and Ishtar would be more or less on the same level. The Gila wouldn't be supreme. They would just be different. The Ishtar would actually probably still be better as it can field sentries and the Gila can't
Mehrune Khan Viziam Amarr Empire 29	Posted - 2015.03.12 17:17:50 - [262] - Quote This was a suggestion in another thread that I liked. Make heavy drones 20m3 and 20 bandwidth Reduce Ishtar and Vexor Navy Issue bandwidth to 100 This removes the ability of cruiser-sized drone boats to use 5 sentries, and also gives other boats with 100 bandwidth the ability to fly 5 heavies - like the Myrmidon which is IMO a good thing. There's no reason for a smaller more agile ship like the Vexor Navy Issue to have a larger bandwidth than a battlecruiser. Minmatar ships that have odd drone bandwidth like the Scythe (45) would be able to use an extra heavy drone, but I'm not convinced that would be such a bad thing. It seems everyone hates the sentries more than the heavies, so keeping 5 sentries a battlecruiser or larger thing might be a good idea.
Spugg Galdon Nisroc Angels 627	Posted - 2015.03.13 08:01:34 - [263] - Quote Mehrune Khan wrote: This was a suggestion in another thread that I liked. Make heavy drones 20m3 and 20 bandwidth Reduce Ishtar and Vexor Navy Issue bandwidth to 100 This removes the ability of cruiser-sized drone boats to use 5 sentries, and also gives other boats with 100 bandwidth the ability to fly 5 heavies - like the Myrmidon which is IMO a good thing. There's no reason for a smaller more agile ship like the Vexor Navy Issue to have a larger bandwidth than a battlecruiser. Minmatar ships that have odd drone bandwidth like the Scythe (45) would be able to use an extra heavy drone, but I'm not convinced that would be such a bad thing. It seems everyone hates the sentries more than the heavies, so keeping 5 sentries a battlecruiser or larger thing might be a good idea. This is essentially what they're doing by nerfing the damage bonus. It doesn't remove the fundamental problem with the Ishtar which is a combination of speed, tank, Ewar immunity, projection and application with superb damage. All that the nerf achieves is a reduction from superb damage to good damage. Fleets will simply just bring moar Ishtars to compensate. The Ishtar needs to be redesigned. The suggestion that I made to swap it's role with the Eos makes more sense to me as the Eos doesn't have the mids to shield tank it and it doesn't have the mobility. It does have an MJD though, which would actually work with it. It gives the projection and application of the Ishtar while removing the mobility and welding it to a hull that favor's armour
Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 14	Posted - 2015.03.13 08:20:55 - [264] - Quote If you want to make a brawler of it: give it the corresponding boni. Which means an armor res or armor repair bonus. Your proposed hybrid turret bonus is useless because it hasnt enough cpu and powergrid to support medium turrets.
Xequecal GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 273	Posted - 2015.03.13 09:20:40 - [265] - Quote Mehrune Khan wrote: This was a suggestion in another thread that I liked. Make heavy drones 20m3 and 20 bandwidth Reduce Ishtar and Vexor Navy Issue bandwidth to 100 This removes the ability of cruiser-sized drone boats to use 5 sentries, and also gives other boats with 100 bandwidth the ability to fly 5 heavies - like the Myrmidon which is IMO a good thing. There's no reason for a smaller more agile ship like the Vexor Navy Issue to have a larger bandwidth than a battlecruiser. Minmatar ships that have odd drone bandwidth like the Scythe (45) would be able to use an extra heavy drone, but I'm not convinced that would be such a bad thing. It seems everyone hates the sentries more than the heavies, so keeping 5 sentries a battlecruiser or larger thing might be a good idea. Stratios with 5 heavies is nuts, FYI.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 928	Posted - 2015.03.13 09:43:31 - [266] - Quote And all the battleships with 100 bandwidth.
Wulfy Johnson NorCorp Security 65	Posted - 2015.03.13 13:17:25 - [267] - Quote As everybody else is saying, damage is NOT the problem, application and range control IS. Sentry drones should not have an exdended controll range over 20km as they are stationary, i feel that stationary drones should force stationary controll range, this way drones will be more balanced. 2Okm is enough for align here, there and back again in situasions where a sentry drone should be used over a drone..
Soldarius Kosher Nostra The 99 Percent 1175	Posted - 2015.03.13 14:23:52 - [268] - Quote http://evenews24.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/zbg9Bbn-1024x702.png Sentry drones are so well balanced. http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Spugg Galdon Nisroc Angels 627	Posted - 2015.03.13 16:00:22 - [269] - Quote Sentry drones are very broken and arty is way underpowered looking at that @Aplysia Vejun - fitting an Ishtar with guns and without any CPU issues: Quote: [Ishtar, Shield Ganker] Damage Control II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Overdrive Injector System II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Initiated Harmonic Warp Scrambler I Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Ogre II x5 Quote: [Ishtar, Dual Rep] Damage Control II Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste Medium Armor Repairer II Armor Explosive Hardener II Energized EM Membrane II Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400 Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Stasis Webifier II Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II Ogre II x5 Quote: [Ishtar, 1600mm Plate] Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Armor Explosive Hardener II Energized EM Membrane II Drone Damage Amplifier II Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I 10MN Afterburner II Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Stasis Webifier II Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M Medium Ancillary Current Router II Medium Trimark Armor Pump II Gecko x2 Ogre II x1 That last one is even dual prop. Those are just simple fits not even stepping out of the box either. Also, drones and hybrid (other weapons) bonuses aren't a bad mix. It's one of the only mixed bonuses that actually work. The fact that you're comparing it to a Gila just shows your incompetence. The Gila is a mixed weapon boat too!! For reference. Ships with weapon and drone bonuses: Tristan Algos Vexor Navy Dominix Worm Gila Rattlesnake probably missed some too
Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 14	Posted - 2015.03.13 17:59:20 - [270] - Quote Uh, what fail-fits. (the armor ones, cannot tell about the shield-one). Not even the most crucial thing installed: t2 cloak do you only roam in big groups?? edit: AND you need skills at V to use most of these fits
Friendship Kittens 0	Posted - 2015.03.14 02:17:13 - [271] - Quote Ishtars kill Friendship :(
Spugg Galdon Nisroc Angels 627	Posted - 2015.03.14 06:53:34 - [272] - Quote Aplysia Vejun wrote: Uh, what fail-fits. (the armor ones, cannot tell about the shield-one). Not even the most crucial thing installed: t2 cloak do you only roam in big groups?? edit: AND you need skills at V to use most of these fits You're a moron. Stawman useless arguments. Guessing you're a troll and I'm just feeding you. Why is it necessary to fit a cloak? Are you some kind of *****?
Trajan Unknown Caldari Provisions Caldari State 2	Posted - 2015.03.14 20:27:28 - [273] - Quote Best idea I-¦ve read in this thread is to remove sentries from everything below BCs hulls. Sentries are one of the most boring things I have ever seen in any "video game" and it-¦s more than two centuries ago when I played my first one. Drones are ok but sentries are simply boring as **** besides all their other "game killer" abilities.
James Zimmer Furtherance. 15	Posted - 2015.03.16 18:00:01 - [274] - Quote Many have said it, and I'll say it as well: A set of 5 sentries, bonused or not, is battleship class firepower, and very good battleship class firepower at that. If any sub-battleship should be able to carry 5 sentries, it should be an attack battlecruiser, not a HAC. However, I understand that I make a rather dramatic proposal there, and it's unlikely to be implemented, so how about this: Give the Ishtar a 175m3 drone bay (and nerf the VNI down to 150 m3). You get one set of sentries, and a set of mediums or a couple sets of lights. That way, you have to make meaningful choices about what drones you should bring, rather than bringing all of them and swapping them out like ammo types. In addition, it will make sentry killing a potentially viable option, as that DPS cannot be immediately replaced.
Gallowmere Rorschach Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation 939	Posted - 2015.03.18 02:33:26 - [275] - Quote Not enough. Reduce it's sentry bonuses to a nice, round number, like zero.
Kitty Bear Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance 1434	Posted - 2015.03.18 09:10:39 - [276] - Quote Alexhandr Shkarov wrote: CCP Rise wrote: New bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Light, Medium and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage I'd much rather see the 5% to sentry bonuses get adjusted to something else, perhaps a bonus to heavy drone microwarpdrive speed? Makes them a little more aggressive in engaging and switching? this works really well too. not sure that a 5% speed bonus would be sufficient however, so there's a small range of options that could be used 20% would make heavy drones nicely mobile and enable much better re-targeting capabilities.
Gallowmere Rorschach Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation 946	Posted - 2015.03.18 12:10:34 - [277] - Quote Soldarius wrote: http://evenews24.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/zbg9Bbn-1024x702.png Sentry drones are so well balanced. Holy crap. I knew Artillery and ACs were bad, but goddamn dude, when you put it like that...
Soldarius Kosher Nostra The 99 Percent 1180	Posted - 2015.03.18 14:10:28 - [278] - Quote Gallowmere Rorschach wrote: Soldarius wrote: http://evenews24.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/zbg9Bbn-1024x702.png Sentry drones are so well balanced. Holy crap. I knew Artillery and ACs were bad, but goddamn dude, when you put it like that... dps graph was shamelessly stolen from someone else. So I can't take credit for it. But it is a very good graph. Also, this is a friendly reminder that arty has crappy dps but great alpha. ACs need a buff. They are literally terrible. http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 2024	Posted - 2015.03.18 15:14:39 - [279] - Quote Soldarius wrote: Gallowmere Rorschach wrote: Soldarius wrote: http://evenews24.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/zbg9Bbn-1024x702.png Sentry drones are so well balanced. Holy crap. I knew Artillery and ACs were bad, but goddamn dude, when you put it like that... dps graph was shamelessly stolen from someone else. So I can't take credit for it. But it is a very good graph. Also, this is a friendly reminder that arty has crappy dps but great alpha. ACs need a buff. They are literally terrible. AC became useless when CCP both nerfed track enhancer and buffed blasters damage AND falloff. The result is that there is no engagement envelope where AC are better than Blasters that is not already far enough that would be better to use rails. So AC have not a SINGLE METER of engagement envelope where they are a good option. "If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!" For the rest hire PoH \| Recruitment
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 20	Posted - 2015.03.18 16:19:59 - [280] - Quote Soldarius wrote: Gallowmere Rorschach wrote: Soldarius wrote: http://evenews24.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/zbg9Bbn-1024x702.png Sentry drones are so well balanced. Holy crap. I knew Artillery and ACs were bad, but goddamn dude, when you put it like that... dps graph was shamelessly stolen from someone else. So I can't take credit for it. But it is a very good graph. And very accurate. REMOVE SENTRIES FROM THE ISHTAR Cruiser-sized hull with T2 resists using BATTLESHIP-sized weapons systems. Good job, CCP. Good job. Ishtars Online
Spugg Galdon Nisroc Angels 628	Posted - 2015.03.18 18:06:31 - [281] - Quote Well this thread was a complete and pointless waste of time. It was announced. It was asked... "What do you think?" No replies or discussion from a Dev in this thread since it opened. Scylla patch notes released and the original proposal is what's there. Seriously? Why did you even bother to open this thread as a discussion. Should of just posted a notification thread and ******* well locked it.
Gallowmere Rorschach Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation 952	Posted - 2015.03.19 01:57:11 - [282] - Quote Spugg Galdon wrote: Well this thread was a complete and pointless waste of time. It was announced. It was asked... "What do you think?" No replies or discussion from a Dev in this thread since it opened. Scylla patch notes released and the original proposal is what's there. Seriously? Why did you even bother to open this thread as a discussion. Should of just posted a notification thread and ******* well locked it. I think that they already knew the answers that they were going to get. They've given the Ishtar some lovetaps over the last year, but are still hesitant to give it the pimphand treatment that it really needs, for some reason.
Arsine Mayhem Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 385	Posted - 2015.03.19 02:17:41 - [283] - Quote Corben Arctus wrote: Aiyshimin wrote: This will achieve the goal of making Ishtars less useful, but unfortunately does nothing to make other ships useful. Range and speed are overpowered in EVE, and only doctrines with damage projection and mobility work. In other words, people will just use the next platform that outranges others while remaining mobile, leaving whole shipclasses gathering dust in hangars. This. Yep, there will always be one that is more powerful than others. Enough crying and they get nerfed. They have been crying about sentries and drones for the past couple of years. Remove them all from the game. FIXT
Arsine Mayhem Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 385	Posted - 2015.03.19 02:42:13 - [284] - Quote Spugg Galdon wrote: Well this thread was a complete and pointless waste of time. It was announced. It was asked... "What do you think?" No replies or discussion from a Dev in this thread since it opened. Scylla patch notes released and the original proposal is what's there. Seriously? Why did you even bother to open this thread as a discussion. Should of just posted a notification thread and ***** well locked it. Yea, and it's all to dry the tears. If the ishtar is so OP, then why don't these people simply fly the ishtar? It isn't that the ishtar is op. IT IS the players that cry are BAD**. They will always be bad. Nerfing another ship / module / drone for them won't make them good. Let's see what bat country cries about next.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 21	Posted - 2015.03.19 05:32:53 - [285] - Quote Arsine Mayhem wrote: Spugg Galdon wrote: Well this thread was a complete and pointless waste of time. It was announced. It was asked... "What do you think?" No replies or discussion from a Dev in this thread since it opened. Scylla patch notes released and the original proposal is what's there. Seriously? Why did you even bother to open this thread as a discussion. Should of just posted a notification thread and ***** well locked it. If the ishtar is so OP, then why don't these people simply fly the ishtar? It isn't that the ishtar is op. IT IS the players that cry are BAD*. They will always be bad. You're not very mature now, are you? There are other ships people have trained for, because, you know, they like the ships/types, and like having fun in game*. But your point is also invalid, in that other countless people simply trained for the ishtard because it became the current meta doctrine. Train for an ishtard or get kicked from your alliance/corp.
Spugg Galdon Nisroc Angels 631	Posted - 2015.03.19 06:02:49 - [286] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Arsine Mayhem wrote: Spugg Galdon wrote: Well this thread was a complete and pointless waste of time. It was announced. It was asked... "What do you think?" No replies or discussion from a Dev in this thread since it opened. Scylla patch notes released and the original proposal is what's there. Seriously? Why did you even bother to open this thread as a discussion. Should of just posted a notification thread and ***** well locked it. If the ishtar is so OP, then why don't these people simply fly the ishtar? It isn't that the ishtar is op. IT IS the players that cry are BAD*. They will always be bad. You're not very mature now, are you? There are other ships people have trained for, because, you know, they like the ships/types, and like having fun in game*. But your point is also invalid, in that other countless people simply trained for the ishtard because it became the current meta doctrine. Train for an ishtard or get kicked from your alliance/corp. And this nerf will change nothing other than people will bring more ishtars
Xequecal GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 276	Posted - 2015.03.19 08:05:02 - [287] - Quote Arsine Mayhem wrote: Corben Arctus wrote: Aiyshimin wrote: This will achieve the goal of making Ishtars less useful, but unfortunately does nothing to make other ships useful. Range and speed are overpowered in EVE, and only doctrines with damage projection and mobility work. In other words, people will just use the next platform that outranges others while remaining mobile, leaving whole shipclasses gathering dust in hangars. This. Yep, there will always be one that is more powerful than others. Enough crying and they get nerfed. They have been crying about sentries and drones for the past couple of years. Remove them all from the game. FIXT The Ishtar is so overpowered that aside from roles given to ships with specialized, specific bonuses, (tackling, ewar, logistics) it is the best subcap for literally everything in the game. It is the best brawler, best kiter, and best sniper. It can do all three of these on the same fit. Its damage application is unparalleled. Heavy drones from an Ishtar do more DPS than a pulse laser battleship and still have the tracking to hit interceptors. It is also the best PvE ship. It runs 10/10s solo and to beat it in ISK/hr in anoms you need a >1b isk pirate BS. Unless you're tackling, remote repping, or jamming, there is never a reason to fly any other subcap that costs less than 1b. The Ishtar's existence completely derails all other balance comparisons. No one cares that, say, ACs really suck right now compared to blasters and lasers, because you can just forget about the comparison and fly an Ishtar which does 3x the DPS and application while selecting damage type and using no cap or fitting. The overpoweredness is so ludicrous that you can fly what would appear to be the hardest, direct counter dictated by game mechanics and you will still lose. For example, try to fly Zealots against shield Ishtars using only bouncers. You're shooting directly into their resist hole while they shoot your strongest resist, but you will still lose horribly because the Ishtar is just that much bullshit. They will either outrange you at 130km or just brute force over the resist difference by up close brawling with a weapon system that does triple the damage yours does.
Spugg Galdon Nisroc Angels 631	Posted - 2015.03.19 09:29:16 - [288] - Quote For a giggle, prevent all Ishtars from undocking/being boarded for an entire month and lets see what happens. A new meta would develop. Then, after a month, randomly allow Ishtars to undick again and see how quickly we return to Ishtars: Online.
Arsine Mayhem Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 385	Posted - 2015.03.19 17:08:19 - [289] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Arsine Mayhem wrote: Spugg Galdon wrote: Well this thread was a complete and pointless waste of time. It was announced. It was asked... "What do you think?" No replies or discussion from a Dev in this thread since it opened. Scylla patch notes released and the original proposal is what's there. Seriously? Why did you even bother to open this thread as a discussion. Should of just posted a notification thread and ***** well locked it. If the ishtar is so OP, then why don't these people simply fly the ishtar? It isn't that the ishtar is op. IT IS the players that cry are BAD*. They will always be bad. You're not very mature now, are you? There are other ships people have trained for, because, you know, they like the ships/types, and like having fun in game*. But your point is also invalid, in that other countless people simply trained for the ishtard because it became the current meta doctrine. Train for an ishtard or get kicked from your alliance/corp. If by mature you mean lack of logic, intelligence, or general knowledge of how the game works, then I guess I will never be. Every fleet, corp, alliance has doctrines. You might need to get out of your mining barge occasionally. RVB runs a fleet on saturdays. Ishtar has been one of the first ships you train into for the past 5+ years. Maybe you think the raven is prettier so you go for that. This whole thing is nothing more than bad players crying because they are bad. They will always be bad. Hide and watch for what they cry about next.
Schluffi Schluffelsen State War Academy Caldari State 43	Posted - 2015.03.19 20:13:41 - [290] - Quote By the way, I just wanted to say thanks to CCP Rise for taking our concerns into consideration and not even answering any of these raised issues. Scylla patch notes are online and everything's going to stay as it is. Thank you very much, much appreciated!
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 39	Posted - 2015.03.20 06:08:07 - [291] - Quote Arsine Mayhem wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Arsine Mayhem wrote: Spugg Galdon wrote: Well this thread was a complete and pointless waste of time. It was announced. It was asked... "What do you think?" No replies or discussion from a Dev in this thread since it opened. Scylla patch notes released and the original proposal is what's there. Seriously? Why did you even bother to open this thread as a discussion. Should of just posted a notification thread and ***** well locked it. If the ishtar is so OP, then why don't these people simply fly the ishtar? It isn't that the ishtar is op. IT IS the players that cry are BAD*. They will always be bad. You're not very mature now, are you? There are other ships people have trained for, because, you know, they like the ships/types, and like having fun in game*. But your point is also invalid, in that other countless people simply trained for the ishtard because it became the current meta doctrine. Train for an ishtard or get kicked from your alliance/corp. If by mature you mean lack of logic, intelligence, or general knowledge of how the game works, then I guess I will never be. Every fleet, corp, alliance has doctrines. You might need to get out of your mining barge occasionally. RVB runs a fleet on saturdays. Ishtar has been one of the first ships you train into for the past 5+ years. Maybe you think the raven is prettier so you go for that. This whole thing is nothing more than bad players crying because they are bad. They will always be bad. Hide and watch for what they cry about next. You're continuing in the same vein. Too reliant on a broken ship, are we? Don't worry too much, it has happened in the past and it will happen again and again - when balance is neglected, the nerf bat, in the end, strikes so hard that the ship becomes history. Remember Draeks? Nanophoons? Nosdomis? Me neither. Or at least I try not to.
Skia Aumer Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC 138	Posted - 2015.03.20 07:02:15 - [292] - Quote Schluffi Schluffelsen wrote: By the way, I just wanted to say thanks to CCP Rise for taking our concerns into consideration and not even answering any of these raised issues. Scylla patch notes are online and everything's going to stay as it is. Thank you very much, much appreciated! You just have no idea. They were discussing it internally (tm) and concluded that our concerns are not valid. After Scylla goes live, Ishtars will be balanced, period. Metrics (tm) will show it. CSM (tm) also approved it. They always do. Problem solved, salaries paid.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 941	Posted - 2015.03.20 08:17:32 - [293] - Quote Arsine Mayhem wrote: Spugg Galdon wrote: Well this thread was a complete and pointless waste of time. It was announced. It was asked... "What do you think?" No replies or discussion from a Dev in this thread since it opened. Scylla patch notes released and the original proposal is what's there. Seriously? Why did you even bother to open this thread as a discussion. Should of just posted a notification thread and ***** well locked it. Yea, and it's all to dry the tears. If the ishtar is so OP, then why don't these people simply fly the ishtar? We do. Everyone does. And you know what? We're bored ***** shitless with them. They could literally deleted them tomorrow and no tears would be shed. People are THAT sick of them.
Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 15	Posted - 2015.03.20 09:07:29 - [294] - Quote I'm always in lowsec and npc null. Last time i saw an ishtar is about 3 weeks ago. It was someone doing a 5/10 site. So no, they arent used everywhere and anytime. 50% of the ships around are tengus. Then 10% the other t3 abd the rest is composed of the other ships, mostly interceptors
Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 15	Posted - 2015.03.20 09:13:01 - [295] - Quote Bah. Stupid smartphone... double post
GankYou Redshield Holding Company 10	Posted - 2015.03.20 09:37:46 - [296] - Quote Aplysia Vejun wrote: I'm always in lowsec and npc null. Last time i saw an ishtar is about 3 weeks ago That explains things. You wouldn't happen to live in Stain? http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/coalitionsov/Coalitioninfluence.png
Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 15	Posted - 2015.03.20 09:48:42 - [297] - Quote Actually no. Im speaking of syndicate and lowregions of solitude, aridin, genesis
Vertiggo Andumi State Services 3	Posted - 2015.03.21 11:50:18 - [298] - Quote Please forgive me if I missed something... does this mean the Navy Vexor has more sentry dps than Ishtar?
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1107	Posted - 2015.03.21 12:55:12 - [299] - Quote Vertiggo Andumi wrote: Please forgive me if I missed something... does this mean the Navy Vexor has more sentry dps than Ishtar? thats what i asked too .. no response Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic, nerf sentries. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
Aiyshimin Fistful of Finns Triumvirate. 484	Posted - 2015.03.21 13:03:40 - [300] - Quote Gallowmere Rorschach wrote: Soldarius wrote: http://evenews24.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/zbg9Bbn-1024x702.png Sentry drones are so well balanced. Holy crap. I knew Artillery and ACs were bad, but goddamn dude, when you put it like that... They aren't bad and neither sentries are op when you fit the weapons on the appropriate hulls. The only thing that gets bizarrely out of line are RLML, which outrange and damage most other weapon systems. Unfitted weapon stats aren't really relevant in balance discussions.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 944	Posted - 2015.03.21 13:19:18 - [301] - Quote Aiyshimin wrote: Gallowmere Rorschach wrote: Soldarius wrote: http://evenews24.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/zbg9Bbn-1024x702.png Sentry drones are so well balanced. Holy crap. I knew Artillery and ACs were bad, but goddamn dude, when you put it like that... They aren't bad and neither sentries are op when you fit the weapons on the appropriate hulls. The only thing that gets bizarrely out of line are RLML, which outrange and damage most other weapon systems. Unfitted weapon stats aren't really relevant in balance discussions. The charts in EFT always ignore reload impact on DPS, that's why RLML are a bit whacky.
Supreme clientele ETERNAL WALTZ 6	Posted - 2015.03.21 14:13:13 - [302] - Quote Just make it so Ishtar sentries stop firing if you exceed a certain speed.
Vertiggo Andumi State Services 3	Posted - 2015.03.21 16:48:46 - [303] - Quote Harvey James wrote: Vertiggo Andumi wrote: Please forgive me if I missed something... does this mean the Navy Vexor has more sentry dps than Ishtar? thats what i asked too .. no response Weird... is it not telling that my response is just "well I guess I need to stop training for Ishtar if my DPS is going to DROP after an extra month of narrow-scope skill training"? Maybe I'm just this "rare player type" who isn't quite ready for PvP and actually runs missions... but heavies are out of the question 90% of the time because of NPC aggro, so this is really just taking the axe to my prospective mission efficiency in a big way. It just means I have to look to Dominix and Rattlesnake more... and I wasn't even part of the PvP OP'ness in the first place...
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 944	Posted - 2015.03.21 17:28:42 - [304] - Quote Vertiggo Andumi wrote: Harvey James wrote: Vertiggo Andumi wrote: Please forgive me if I missed something... does this mean the Navy Vexor has more sentry dps than Ishtar? thats what i asked too .. no response Weird... is it not telling that my response is just "well I guess I need to stop training for Ishtar if my DPS is going to DROP after an extra month of narrow-scope skill training"? Maybe I'm just this "rare player type" who isn't quite ready for PvP and actually runs missions... but heavies are out of the question 90% of the time because of NPC aggro, so this is really just taking the axe to my prospective mission efficiency in a big way. It just means I have to look to Dominix and Rattlesnake more... and I wasn't even part of the PvP OP'ness in the first place... Being able to fly a HAC to any semblance of efficiency then you are more than able to PvP - you just dont. Also the ishtar will project the DPS much better and tank much better - it's not all about the paper numbers.
Vertiggo Andumi State Services 3	Posted - 2015.03.21 18:29:17 - [305] - Quote afkalt wrote: Vertiggo Andumi wrote: Harvey James wrote: Vertiggo Andumi wrote: Please forgive me if I missed something... does this mean the Navy Vexor has more sentry dps than Ishtar? thats what i asked too .. no response Weird... is it not telling that my response is just "well I guess I need to stop training for Ishtar if my DPS is going to DROP after an extra month of narrow-scope skill training"? Maybe I'm just this "rare player type" who isn't quite ready for PvP and actually runs missions... but heavies are out of the question 90% of the time because of NPC aggro, so this is really just taking the axe to my prospective mission efficiency in a big way. It just means I have to look to Dominix and Rattlesnake more... and I wasn't even part of the PvP OP'ness in the first place... Being able to fly a HAC to any semblance of efficiency then you are more than able to PvP - you just dont. Also the ishtar will project the DPS much better and tank much better - it's not all about the paper numbers. No offense, you're correct on both points, but when bowling for NPC's paper does have a lot to do with it. Laying down raw DPS and being able to move makes L4's quicker, which means more ISK per minute. You can disagree with the "single player" game, but it exists for a reason. Some of us don't have the desire and/or ability to play differently, especially when 300ms latency is the minimum.
Suitonia Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep 466	Posted - 2015.03.21 18:31:27 - [306] - Quote Vertiggo Andumi wrote: Please forgive me if I missed something... does this mean the Navy Vexor has more sentry dps than Ishtar? Yes it does, although the Ishtar has better tracking, better range, better drone control range, higher resists, better sensor strength, better capacitor stats, MWD signature radius mitigation bonus, higher warp speed, better targeting range... The Navy Omen+Omen has drones and the Zealot doesn't, doesn't mean the Zealot is bad. Navy Exequror outdamages a Deimos if all you're doing is comparing raw blaster DPS... Caracal Navy Issue outdamages the Cerberus when not using kinetic missiles due to drones+application bonus there are plenty of cases like this. Contributer to Eve is Easy: https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1107	Posted - 2015.03.21 18:58:25 - [307] - Quote Suitonia wrote: Vertiggo Andumi wrote: Please forgive me if I missed something... does this mean the Navy Vexor has more sentry dps than Ishtar? Yes it does, although the Ishtar has better tracking, better range, better drone control range, higher resists, better sensor strength, better capacitor stats, MWD signature radius mitigation bonus, higher warp speed, better targeting range... The Navy Omen+Omen has drones and the Zealot doesn't, doesn't mean the Zealot is bad. Navy Exequror outdamages a Deimos if all you're doing is comparing raw blaster DPS... Caracal Navy Issue outdamages the Cerberus when not using kinetic missiles due to drones+application bonus there are plenty of cases like this. yes but they are only small portion of the dps of those ships, ishtar and VNI = all their damage is based on drones not a small portion. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic, nerf sentries. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 946	Posted - 2015.03.21 19:29:56 - [308] - Quote Vertiggo Andumi wrote: afkalt wrote: Vertiggo Andumi wrote: Harvey James wrote: Vertiggo Andumi wrote: Please forgive me if I missed something... does this mean the Navy Vexor has more sentry dps than Ishtar? thats what i asked too .. no response Weird... is it not telling that my response is just "well I guess I need to stop training for Ishtar if my DPS is going to DROP after an extra month of narrow-scope skill training"? Maybe I'm just this "rare player type" who isn't quite ready for PvP and actually runs missions... but heavies are out of the question 90% of the time because of NPC aggro, so this is really just taking the axe to my prospective mission efficiency in a big way. It just means I have to look to Dominix and Rattlesnake more... and I wasn't even part of the PvP OP'ness in the first place... Being able to fly a HAC to any semblance of efficiency then you are more than able to PvP - you just dont. Also the ishtar will project the DPS much better and tank much better - it's not all about the paper numbers. No offense, you're correct on both points, but when bowling for NPC's paper does have a lot to do with it. Laying down raw DPS and being able to move makes L4's quicker, which means more ISK per minute. You can disagree with the "single player" game, but it exists for a reason. Some of us don't have the desire and/or ability to play differently, especially when 300ms latency is the minimum. That's fair enough :) Domis are excellent though, the MJD is a godsend for missions. However, if you're serious about mission efficiency - a HAC is a poor choice for the most part - battleships/marauders are where it is at.
Vertiggo Andumi State Services 3	Posted - 2015.03.22 05:07:25 - [309] - Quote Let me just say for the record, the correct response to Ishtar syndrome is fixing sentries, i.e. disabling the IWIN button. Sentries are special in behavior, damage, and tank, so special control range is reasonable. Give them a unique control range of 10km or something independent of their "attack range" so the boats are forced to stay close. We can still orbit one and keep a smaller target, but no kiting and dumping seemingly ad infinitum. If the boat is invincible, it makes no difference how much we muzzle the attack dogs. Since Ishtar can carry 16, everything hinges on forcing the ship itself to fight in all out brawls. If we start simply pulling the damage rug out from under one ship, it will have to cascade down to every other ship with +50% damage modifier. A damage nerf is just a plastic bandaid on a complex fracture.
HazeInADaze Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 88	Posted - 2015.03.22 11:20:47 - [310] - Quote I was in sentry drone fleets long before the HAC rebalance. The changes that brought on mass sentry use just amped up an already powerful fleet design. The issue is, and will remain, the ability to put out battleship firepower and range from a mobile and resilient platform. The HAC will remain resilient and mobile, what it needs to lose is the area control provided by mass sentry. Simply nerfing the fire power is a brutish rebalance, what should be introduced is a hard counter. Maybe a battleship or capital class module which jams drones or reduces the control range of drones within an area. Create a way to force the HACs to defend the area by risking their ships. The counter to sentries should come with some weakness so the RPS chain is maintained -- preferably a chain that climbs the ship-class ladder. Reducing the power of a ship is never a fun solution. Players want to feel like their ship or fleet is amazing. Creating a solid Rock, Paper, Scissors chain allows people to fly powerful ships, have absolutely lopsided victories, but never give the impression of total imbalance because if the proper counter was used the fight would have gone dramaticalky different.
Aeryn Maricadie Periphery Bound 8	Posted - 2015.03.23 01:32:50 - [311] - Quote Sentry drones are really only OP on the Ishtar/Navy Vexor. It comes from putting the BS weapons platform on a T2 cruiser, its like an attack battle cruiser with super tank instead of glass cannon. This means that the nerf ought to be to the ship and not to drones in general which is the good part of what they are doing. The bad part was that the least problematic part of the ship was the raw damage, but the excellent sig tank combined with the fact that drones don't lose effectiveness when sig tanking. Turreted ships that increase their transversal to avoid damage also lose some of their out put, the Ishtar has no such trade off. The result is the Ishtar not only has loads of raw dps but excellent application as well, the bonuses to range and tracking need to go as much as if not more than the damage. Not to mention I think that the Ishtar does way more damage than any other HAC in general probably throws things off too, but this could potentially be better solved by buffing other systems/ships instead of just beating the Ishtar with the nerf bat.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 57	Posted - 2015.03.23 02:03:11 - [312] - Quote Another day. Another day nanoggafing in an Ishtar. Thank you, CCP. *** My only hope, as they keep ignoring the Ishtar problem, is that some new developments/dynamics of the coming sovereignty system will force a completely new meta. Otherwise, hello Ishtars Online forevermore. You sunk my battleship. ( -í° -£-û -í°)
Mournful Conciousness Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate 868	Posted - 2015.03.23 11:51:57 - [313] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: In Scylla we are deploying a set of high-impact balance changes. This thread is for discussing a proposed changed to the Ishtar. We are planning to split it's drone damage bonus in to two bonuses so that we can lower the bonus to sentry damage. It would look like this: Old bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage New bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Light, Medium and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage This change is being made to encourage diversity in ship choice across EVE. The Ishtar has proven strong enough with its current bonus set to dominate in many environments and we want to make sure there is plenty of room for ship choice other than the Ishtar. We came to this decision using a combination of internal metrics, community feedback and by using EFT like everyone else. Too much? Too little? Let us know. Ishtar (and PVE Dominix) dominance became an issue when they were given range and tracking bonuses. Prior to that there were no complaints from anyone. Giving any sentry ship a range bonus gives it the ability to hit with blaster damage at artillery ranges. This is wrong. The solution is extremely simple - remove the range/tracking bonus from sentries on these ships and replace it with a hybrid bonus, as things were before. No need for inconsistent, complicated half measures Fozzie. I agree that moving a mid to a low in the ishtar would be welcome - it could then be a viable armour drone brawler. It could still do shield-nano of course, but not without sacrificing some survivability or a target painter. Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Soldarius Kosher Nostra The 99 Percent 1182	Posted - 2015.03.23 21:09:55 - [314] - Quote Aiyshimin wrote: Gallowmere Rorschach wrote: Soldarius wrote: http://evenews24.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/zbg9Bbn-1024x702.png Sentry drones are so well balanced. Holy crap. I knew Artillery and ACs were bad, but goddamn dude, when you put it like that... They aren't bad and neither sentries are op when you fit the weapons on the appropriate hulls. The only thing that gets bizarrely out of line are RLML, which outrange and damage most other weapon systems. Unfitted weapon stats aren't really relevant in balance discussions. Holy crap. Did you seriously just post that? Unfitted weapon stats absolutely relevant. If the weapons within a group are not comparable (comparable means having some variation within a general performance range, not identical in performance), then exactly how do you balance them? Put widely disparate bonuses or even penalties on every ship in the game to compensate? The unfit weapon stats are exactly where CCP should start with balancing. Then they can correct any obvious and glaringly bad bonuses on the hulls that have them. Charts like the above indicate disparities in performance (poor balance) between systems in the same category; this case medium weapons + Rapid Lights. Sentry drones have better applied dps to a medium target under worst conditions than every other weapon system by a large margin from 28km all the way out to as far as you can get them to engage. I've suggested multiple ways to fix this. Here is another way; nerf the damage on Gardes, Curators, and Bouncers so that they apply the same dps as Wardens to the same target at their engagement ranges. They'll be comparable to the short-range weapons at long range, better than the long-range weapons at long range, and worse than short range weapons at short range. tbh, even that might not be enough. http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
d0cTeR9 Astro Technologies SpaceMonkey's Alliance 99	Posted - 2015.03.25 02:35:52 - [315] - Quote Remove sentry bonus completely. Heck, remove heavy bonus too, might as well considering how intense the nerf on carriers/supercarriers was.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 970	Posted - 2015.03.25 12:38:39 - [316] - Quote Soldarius wrote: I've suggested multiple ways to fix this. Here is another way; nerf the damage on Gardes, Curators, and Bouncers so that they apply the same dps as Wardens to the same target at their engagement ranges. They'll be comparable to the short-range weapons at long range, better than the long-range weapons at long range, and worse than short range weapons at short range. I think it would be more relevant to compare them to large weapons....with the rest of this post taken into account. Soldarius wrote: Holy crap. Did you seriously just post that? Unfitted weapon stats absolutely relevant. If the weapons within a group are not comparable (comparable means having some variation within a general performance range, not identical in performance), then exactly how do you balance them? Put widely disparate bonuses or even penalties on every ship in the game to compensate? Actually it's perhaps more true than you may first realise. The problem is comparing them to (unbonused or not) other weapons and that is that they cap out at FIVE possible "turrets" per ship before bonuses. Most other DPS boats have more than this. This is why when hulls are compared they use the terms "effective" launchers/turrets and allows more meaningful comparison at a high level. This is really not obvious from the chart and is being overlooked when it shouldnt be. The chart is an oversimplification (and was originally done to show why rails were being nerfed) They are still outliers, but that chart is a bit of a misrepresentation because if you alter sentries to fit there, you nuke them as a battleship platform (where they belong, imo).
Soldarius Kosher Nostra The 99 Percent 1189	Posted - 2015.03.25 19:40:46 - [317] - Quote afkalt wrote: Actually it's perhaps more true than you may first realise. The problem is comparing them to (unbonused or not) other weapons and that is that they cap out at FIVE possible "turrets" per ship before bonuses. Most other DPS boats have more than this. This is why when hulls are compared they use the terms "effective" launchers/turrets and allows more meaningful comparison at a high level. This is really not obvious from the chart and is being overlooked when it shouldnt be. The chart is an oversimplification (and was originally done to show why rails were being nerfed) They are still outliers, but that chart is a bit of a misrepresentation because if you alter sentries to fit there, you nuke them as a battleship platform (where they belong, imo). Your point of my solution nerfing sentries so as to be inappropriate as a BS-sized weapon platform is correct, and after further reflection I realize that my suggestion would so exactly as you say. But CCP has yet to even acknowledge that Sentries are a BS-sized weapon. (plz link if I am wrong. But I've never seen or heard of it.) http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Mournful Conciousness Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate 877	Posted - 2015.03.25 20:07:48 - [318] - Quote Even on a battleship, a damage-augmented sentry drone is a battleship-powered weapon with an interceptor's lock time and the accuracy of a cruiser. Without DDAs they were acceptable. With DDAs they are game-breaking. Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Aeryn Maricadie Periphery Bound 13	Posted - 2015.03.25 22:18:00 - [319] - Quote Mournful Conciousness wrote: Even on a battleship, a damage-augmented sentry drone is a battleship-powered weapon with an interceptor's lock time and the accuracy of a cruiser. Without DDAs they were acceptable. With DDAs they are game-breaking. They have a sig resolution of 400 so they have the accuracy of BS weapons not cruisers, looking at the chart you will notice that even the closest ranged sentries cant hit **** under 20km making it easy to get under the guns when fielded by Battleships. Also don't forget that they have the lock time of the parent ship as well. getting around that by using the assist function means there is a problem with that but not the sentries. Sentry drones are fine as a Battleship class weapon its giving them to cruisers that causes the problem.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 972	Posted - 2015.03.26 08:52:27 - [320] - Quote Soldarius wrote: afkalt wrote: Actually it's perhaps more true than you may first realise. The problem is comparing them to (unbonused or not) other weapons and that is that they cap out at FIVE possible "turrets" per ship before bonuses. Most other DPS boats have more than this. This is why when hulls are compared they use the terms "effective" launchers/turrets and allows more meaningful comparison at a high level. This is really not obvious from the chart and is being overlooked when it shouldnt be. The chart is an oversimplification (and was originally done to show why rails were being nerfed) They are still outliers, but that chart is a bit of a misrepresentation because if you alter sentries to fit there, you nuke them as a battleship platform (where they belong, imo). Your point of my solution nerfing sentries so as to be inappropriate as a BS-sized weapon platform is correct, and after further reflection I realize that my suggestion would so exactly as you say. But CCP has yet to even acknowledge that Sentries are a BS-sized weapon. (plz link if I am wrong. But I've never seen or heard of it.) I don't think they've ever admitted it. Sig radius is the big tell though. My phone rounds so it may not be exact but curator II have 0.03 tracking, mega beams 0.02 but the beams go further - but almost identical. It's the application bonused hulls that make them so fiercesome (no one complains about geddon drones Or in fact the VNI or the old Gila).
Mournful Conciousness Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate 879	Posted - 2015.03.26 10:52:38 - [321] - Quote Aeryn Maricadie wrote: Mournful Conciousness wrote: Even on a battleship, a damage-augmented sentry drone is a battleship-powered weapon with an interceptor's lock time and the accuracy of a cruiser. Without DDAs they were acceptable. With DDAs they are game-breaking. They have a sig resolution of 400 so they have the accuracy of BS weapons not cruisers, looking at the chart you will notice that even the closest ranged sentries cant hit **** under 20km making it easy to get under the guns when fielded by Battleships. Also don't forget that they have the lock time of the parent ship as well. getting around that by using the assist function means there is a problem with that but not the sentries. Sentry drones are fine as a Battleship class weapon its giving them to cruisers that causes the problem. Thanks for your reply. My response: First, lock time. The lock time of a sentry drone is the lock time of the sensor-boosted Confessor destroyer you have assisted with it - half a second? Confessors can perma-tank lowsec gate-guns while sporting 2 or 3 sensor boosters. A gate camp of 1 confessor and 3 Ishtars can alpha most ships that will come through a gate (since no-one uses battleships any more). Second, accuracy: We of course agree on the numbers. optimal Sig radius 400 and base tracking of 0.036 for a garde II (about 2/3 that of a neutron blaster cannon)... but: * With the advent of range-bonused hulls, the drones hit out as far as targeting range, making tracking a moot point. * With the introduction of the DDA, they hit as hard as a close range weapons system. Prior to the introduction of DDAs and the ishtar/dominix re-jig, sentries were never cited as a problem in PVP. Today, it's a weapons system that dominates the eve skirmish battlefield. The events are not unrelated. Retrospective nerfs to the Ishtar aren't going to help matters or improve the game - no-one wants half a bonus on their ship. Even with no drone damage bonus on the hull, it can fit 3 DDAs, a target painter, micro warp, some shield tank and a DLA... to deliver 440 explosive damage with what is now pinpoint accuracy from 100km away. If someone is able to burn the 100km, the ishtar itself can burn away, abandon the first set of bouncers and drop gardes, berserkers, warriors etc. Now it can abandon one set of drones and re-connect to another at will, keeping the attacker in a crossfire. Now, it can be argued that this is good game-play and requires a skilled ishtar pilot - and this it correct. However, the ishtar has been given a running start - a 100km range advantage. If there are 3 such Ishtars on grid, with good separation, then the target is not in a position to even give chase - no ship can chase down a nano-ishtar while tanking 1200dps. When I first started Eve, the complaint of all gallente pilots (like me) was that we could never get into the fight because the ships were slow and the weapons were short range. Now the ships are fast (this is good) and the weapons range is extreme. Everyone else now suffers the disadvantage that we used to suffer. It ain't right I tell ya (although until fozzie sees sense I will be abusing it all I can). Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Soldarius Kosher Nostra The 99 Percent 1197	Posted - 2015.03.26 16:37:04 - [322] - Quote So, looking at that medium weapon+sentry chart, I decided to do the same thing with large weapons. Target conditions are identical to the previously posted chart, except the target is a 400m sigRad ship moving at 101m/s; a typical large ship target before links. http://imgur.com/XJIWFZY You may notice I did not include heavy drones. Reason was simple, they are so far superior to everything else that it was distorting the graph. Only Berserkers did less damage than Cruise missiles, and Geckos, lol, 2x the damage obviously. Wasps, Praetors, and Ogres all do more damage than cruise missiles. Ofc, we have to keep in mind that in order to get the indicated ranges with drones, one has to fit multiple Drone Link Augmentors and Sensor Boosters. http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1640	Posted - 2015.03.26 16:37:11 - [323] - Quote Harvey James wrote: Vertiggo Andumi wrote: Please forgive me if I missed something... does this mean the Navy Vexor has more sentry dps than Ishtar? thats what i asked too .. no response No T2 resist profile No application bonus No MWD sig bloom bonus No heavy speed/tracking bonus No drone range bonus No T2 sensor strenght A wee bit less warp speed Yes it does get more DPS out of 1 type of drones. Did I miss anything relevant one side or the other?
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1640	Posted - 2015.03.26 16:40:12 - [324] - Quote Soldarius wrote: So, looking at that medium weapon+sentry chart, I decided to do the same thing with large weapons. Target conditions are identical to the previously posted chart, except the target is a 400m sigRad ship moving at 101m/s; a typical large ship target before links. http://imgur.com/XJIWFZY You may notice I did not include heavy drones. Reason was simple, they are so far superior to everything else that it was distorting the graph. Only Berserkers did less damage than Cruise missiles, and Geckos, lol, 2x the damage obviously. Wasps, Praetors, and Ogres all do more damage than cruise missiles. Ofc, we have to keep in mind that in order to get the indicated ranges with drones, one has to fit multiple Drone Link Augmentors and Sensor Boosters. How do heavies compared to short range weapon if we don't take into account the potential to travel so far because the delay is borderline insane anyway?
Soldarius Kosher Nostra The 99 Percent 1197	Posted - 2015.03.26 16:55:06 - [325] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Soldarius wrote: So, looking at that medium weapon+sentry chart, I decided to do the same thing with large weapons. Target conditions are identical to the previously posted chart, except the target is a 400m sigRad ship moving at 101m/s; a typical large ship target before links. http://imgur.com/XJIWFZY You may notice I did not include heavy drones. Reason was simple, they are so far superior to everything else that it was distorting the graph. Only Berserkers did less damage than Cruise missiles, and Geckos, lol, 2x the damage obviously. Wasps, Praetors, and Ogres all do more damage than cruise missiles. Ofc, we have to keep in mind that in order to get the indicated ranges with drones, one has to fit multiple Drone Link Augmentors and Sensor Boosters. How do heavies compared to short range weapon if we don't take into account the potential to travel so far because the delay is borderline insane anyway? Aye, heavies be slow. You really don't want to wait for them to go 100km. I think when one is considering which is short range and which is long range, Heavy Drones are short range and Sentry Drones are long Range. But EFT always shows mobile drones doing linear damage. Like I said, Berserkers do slightly less damage than cruise missiles, and all the others do more. Guess I really should have included them. http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Xequecal GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 278	Posted - 2015.03.26 17:44:55 - [326] - Quote I've said it before, I'll say it again, the real problem with the Ishtar is that there is no ship in the game that can effectively hit an Ishtar shooting from range without being locked into kin/therm damage and shooting right into its T2 resists. No ship smaller than a battleship has the range to hit an Ishtar other than the Tengu, Vulture, and Eagle. All three use kin/therm railguns. Since you can't fight at range, you're forced to bloom your sig to try to MWD up closer letting them destroy you with sentry guns as you try to get in close. Even if you include battleships, only the Apocalypse and Megathron have sufficient range and tracking to hit an Ishtar shooting from max range. Artillery with tremor has tracking that is so bad it can't actually track Ishtars, even if they're 125km away. Proton L has only a 96km optimal and does absolute **** for damage. The Megathron does kin/therm damage, and the Apocalypse doesn't have the fitting room to use Tachyons in the first place. The only real counters to Ishtars that don't use sentry drones themselves (Dominix, carriers) are Navy Apocs, or an absolutely gigantic blob of Tengus that can alpha them off the field despite doing kin/therm damage only.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 974	Posted - 2015.03.26 17:52:49 - [327] - Quote If they unlocked the cerb from kinetic, it'd give them an interesting run. But they wont, because being locked to a damage type is "fun".
SilentAsTheGrave Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective 141	Posted - 2015.03.26 18:24:03 - [328] - Quote Would removing the sentry bonus [from the Ishtar] completely be enough of a change? Buddy Program: If you sign up with my buddy invite link and subscribe with a valid payment method - I will give you 95% of the going rate for PLEX!
Lienzo Amanuensis 55	Posted - 2015.03.27 23:18:53 - [329] - Quote Why should a Gallente ship get a bonus to using Amarr drones? Limit the Ishtar drone damage bonuses to thermal damage and call it a day.
Shaklu Caldari Provisions Caldari State 38	Posted - 2015.03.28 11:44:34 - [330] - Quote I just don't understand why a cruiser class has bonuses to battleship weapons. Heavy drones and sentries are battleship class weapons, and unless you are flying a t3 battlecruiser or battleship you shouldn't have bonuses to battleship weapons. I'd even say being able to have 5 sentries/heavies up at a time is overkill. Removing bonuses and only allowing 3 or 4 sentries to be active via bandwidth makes the most sense to me.
Aiyshimin Fistful of Finns Triumvirate. 493	Posted - 2015.03.28 12:29:06 - [331] - Quote Shaklu wrote: I just don't understand why a cruiser class has bonuses to battleship weapons. Heavy drones and sentries are battleship class weapons, and unless you are flying a t3 battlecruiser or battleship you shouldn't have bonuses to battleship weapons. I'd even say being able to have 5 sentries/heavies up at a time is overkill. Removing bonuses and only allowing 3 or 4 sentries to be active via bandwidth makes the most sense to me. They aren't battleship class weapons. They are drones.
Aiyshimin Fistful of Finns Triumvirate. 493	Posted - 2015.03.28 12:40:59 - [332] - Quote Soldarius wrote: Aiyshimin wrote: Gallowmere Rorschach wrote: Soldarius wrote: http://evenews24.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/zbg9Bbn-1024x702.png Sentry drones are so well balanced. Holy crap. I knew Artillery and ACs were bad, but goddamn dude, when you put it like that... They aren't bad and neither sentries are op when you fit the weapons on the appropriate hulls. The only thing that gets bizarrely out of line are RLML, which outrange and damage most other weapon systems. Unfitted weapon stats aren't really relevant in balance discussions. Holy crap. Did you seriously just post that? Unfitted weapon stats absolutely relevant. If the weapons within a group are not comparable (comparable means having some variation within a general performance range, not identical in performance), then exactly how do you balance them? Put widely disparate bonuses or even penalties on every ship in the game to compensate? The unfit weapon stats are exactly where CCP should start with balancing. Then they can correct any obvious and glaringly bad bonuses on the hulls that have them. Charts like the above indicate disparities in performance (poor balance) between systems in the same category; this case medium weapons + Rapid Lights. Sentry drones have better applied dps to a medium target under worst conditions than every other weapon system by a large margin from 28km all the way out to as far as you can get them to engage. I've suggested multiple ways to fix this. Here is another way; nerf the damage on Gardes, Curators, and Bouncers so that they apply the same dps as Wardens to the same target at their engagement ranges. They'll be comparable to the short-range weapons at long range, better than the long-range weapons at long range, and worse than short range weapons at short range. tbh, even that might not be enough. edit: The only thing you said that I agree with is that Rapid Lights (ie light missiles) have too much range. The front-loaded dps is ok. Holy crap, did you just post that nonsense? Do you not realize that unbonused, unfitted weapons do not exist on TQ? All the weapons you compare are fitted on appropriate ships in reality, and what is relevant is how the weapons are balanced between these ships. Do yourself a favour and compare those weapons fitted on ships in EFT graphs and you realize how big of a fool you just made yourself.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 88	Posted - 2015.03.28 19:51:18 - [333] - Quote Lienzo wrote: Why should a Gallente ship get a bonus to using Amarr drones? Limit the Ishtar drone damage bonuses to thermal damage and call it a day. Yes. This. Or Remove Sentries from the Ishtar completely. CCP vOv ( -í° -£-û -í°)
Deacon Abox Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop 481	Posted - 2015.03.28 20:52:01 - [334] - Quote HazeInADaze wrote: I was in sentry drone fleets long before the HAC rebalance. The changes that brought on mass sentry use just amped up an already powerful fleet design. The issue is, and will remain, the ability to put out battleship firepower and range from a mobile and resilient platform. The HAC will remain resilient and mobile, what it needs to lose is the area control provided by mass sentry. Simply nerfing the fire power is a brutish rebalance, what should be introduced is a hard counter. Maybe a battleship or capital class module which jams drones or reduces the control range of drones within an area. Create a way to force the HACs to defend the area by risking their ships. The counter to sentries should come with some weakness so the RPS chain is maintained -- preferably a chain that climbs the ship-class ladder. Reducing the power of a ship is never a fun solution. Players want to feel like their ship or fleet is amazing. Creating a solid Rock, Paper, Scissors chain allows people to fly powerful ships, have absolutely lopsided victories, but never give the impression of total imbalance because if the proper counter was used the fight would have gone dramaticalky different. Hey Haze o/. Recently, I tried suggesting a solution along this line of thought. One that would simultaneously buff an ewar and ewar boat line that could use a buff. And would not kill the Ishtar or sentries, but would alter how the ship could perform. Bring it closer or force it to armor tank more. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5562713#post5562713 But as you can see it just got shot down with the usual flair and usual suspects. CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting-áoff button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.
Shaklu Relentless Terrorism Already Disbanded 40	Posted - 2015.03.30 15:09:02 - [335] - Quote Aiyshimin wrote: They aren't battleship class weapons. They are drones. But they are. Heavy and Sentry drones are designed as anti-BS drones for use by ships like the Dominix. While you can use them on smaller ships, you can only use a very limited number. Frigate Drone boat bandwidth is 25 - allowing 5 light drones (1 sentry/heavy) See: Tristan, Dragoon, Algos Cruiser/BC Drone boats have bandwidths of 50 - allowing 5 medium drones (2 sentry/heavy) See: Vexor, Curse, Pilgrim, Harbinger, Prophecy, etc. BS Drone boats have a bandwidth of 125 - allowing 5 sentry or heavy drones See: Dominix, Armageddon There are some minor exceptions, like the Prophecy having 75, and the Algos having 35.. but the most gross exception is the Ishtar which has 125, more than the Battlecruiser done ships, the same as a Battleship drone boat. Except it's not a BS and has a tiny sig radius and can MWD all over the place, Making it deal equal damage as a Dominix without having to worry about having a tank as it can fly away, and is much harder to hit in the first place because it's a cruiser.
Soldarius Kosher Nostra The 99 Percent 1212	Posted - 2015.03.30 15:42:20 - [336] - Quote Aiyshimin wrote: Holy crap, did you just post that nonsense? Do you not realize that unbonused, unfitted weapons do not exist on TQ? All the weapons you compare are fitted on appropriate ships in reality, and what is relevant is how the weapons are balanced between these ships. Do yourself a favour and compare those weapons fitted on ships in EFT graphs and you realize how big of a fool you just made yourself. You do realize that it is completely impossible to even get those lines on the chart without fitting them to a ship right? EFT rulez, m8. Not only that, but you clearly didn't even read the relevant posts, nor are you capable of understanding why anyone would want to compare the base weapon stats. The graph in question was not even my idea. I just copied what someone else did and applied it to large weapons. Without being able to compare base weapon stats, one cannot even begin to try to balance the ships that apply bonuses to them. You are so far behind the power curve in this conversation that you may as well just excuse yourself at this point. http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Soldarius Kosher Nostra The 99 Percent 1212	Posted - 2015.03.30 16:02:55 - [337] - Quote Aiyshimin wrote: Shaklu wrote: I just don't understand why a cruiser class has bonuses to battleship weapons. Heavy drones and sentries are battleship class weapons, and unless you are flying a t3 battlecruiser or battleship you shouldn't have bonuses to battleship weapons. I'd even say being able to have 5 sentries/heavies up at a time is overkill. Removing bonuses and only allowing 3 or 4 sentries to be active via bandwidth makes the most sense to me. They aren't battleship class weapons. They are drones. 425mm Railgun II: 400m signature resolution, optimal 57.6km, falloff 24km (81.6), tracking .01 rad/s. Tachyon Beam Laser II: 400m signature resolution, optimal 52.8km, falloff 20km (72.8), tracking .014rad/s. 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II: 400m signature radius, optimal 48km, falloff 35km (83), tracking .009 rad/s. Bouncer II: 400m signature resolution, optimal 36km, falloff 54km (90km), tracking .019 rad/s. Definitely not a BS-class weapon. edit: Also don't mind the best-in-class range and tracking. http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Caleb Seremshur Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance 526	Posted - 2015.03.31 03:32:40 - [338] - Quote One problem I've always had in fighting ishtars is that they're hard to jam. For a vessel that has an even less skillful weapons system than missiles I think they could suffer having lower than normal sensor strength, shorter lock range and be a bit slower. Drone aggressive state also needs reviewing because right now that's another totally broken feature that makes drones the best weapon system in the game. Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
Tiddle Jr Galvanized Inc. 88	Posted - 2015.03.31 04:43:41 - [339] - Quote Shaklu wrote: Aiyshimin wrote: They aren't battleship class weapons. They are drones. But they are. Heavy and Sentry drones are designed as anti-BS drones for use by ships like the Dominix. While you can use them on smaller ships, you can only use a very limited number. Frigate Drone boat bandwidth is 25 - allowing 5 light drones (1 sentry/heavy) See: Tristan, Dragoon, Algos Cruiser/BC Drone boats have bandwidths of 50 - allowing 5 medium drones (2 sentry/heavy) See: Vexor, Curse, Pilgrim, Harbinger, Prophecy, etc. BS Drone boats have a bandwidth of 125 - allowing 5 sentry or heavy drones See: Dominix, Armageddon There are some minor exceptions, like the Prophecy having 75, and the Algos having 35.. but the most gross exception is the Ishtar which has 125, more than the Battlecruiser done ships, the same as a Battleship drone boat. Except it's not a BS and has a tiny sig radius and can MWD all over the place, Making it deal equal damage as a Dominix without having to worry about having a tank as it can fly away, and is much harder to hit in the first place because it's a cruiser. Edit: In the same way that weapons are restricted via powergrid requirements, so too are drones restricted via their bandwidth. You may be able to fit 1 or 2 battleship guns on a smaller ship, but that would be silly.. the same thing goes for drones. Bandwidth and drone bay capacity limit the number of drones you have available and the number you can actually use. Cruisers should only have a bandwidth designed for medium drones, though sentry drones could be used if you wanted to - in a very limited manner. Vexor has 100mb bandwith, VNI 125, Prophecy 75, Myrmidon 100. Some BS have 75 only. Anti BS weapon doesn't mean it's a BS class fitted weapon.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 89	Posted - 2015.03.31 08:03:12 - [340] - Quote Soldarius wrote: Aiyshimin wrote: Shaklu wrote: I just don't understand why a cruiser class has bonuses to battleship weapons. Heavy drones and sentries are battleship class weapons, and unless you are flying a t3 battlecruiser or battleship you shouldn't have bonuses to battleship weapons. I'd even say being able to have 5 sentries/heavies up at a time is overkill. Removing bonuses and only allowing 3 or 4 sentries to be active via bandwidth makes the most sense to me. They aren't battleship class weapons. They are drones. 425mm Railgun II: 400m signature resolution, optimal 57.6km, falloff 24km (81.6), tracking .01 rad/s. Tachyon Beam Laser II: 400m signature resolution, optimal 52.8km, falloff 20km (72.8), tracking .014rad/s. 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II: 400m signature radius, optimal 48km, falloff 35km (83), tracking .009 rad/s. Bouncer II: 400m signature resolution, optimal 36km, falloff 54km (90km), tracking .019 rad/s. Definitely not a BS-class weapon. edit: Also don't mind the best-in-class range and tracking. Goode poast. Another day. Another day Ishtar not fixed. vOv ( -í° -£-û -í°)
knobber Jobbler Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 540	Posted - 2015.03.31 09:00:04 - [341] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Lienzo wrote: Why should a Gallente ship get a bonus to using Amarr drones? Limit the Ishtar drone damage bonuses to thermal damage and call it a day. Yes. This. Or Remove Sentries from the Ishtar completely. CCP vOv That wouldn't solve the overiding problem that Sentries are still by far the best fleet weapon in the game.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 95	Posted - 2015.03.31 19:41:32 - [342] - Quote knobber Jobbler wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Lienzo wrote: Why should a Gallente ship get a bonus to using Amarr drones? Limit the Ishtar drone damage bonuses to thermal damage and call it a day. Yes. This. Or Remove Sentries from the Ishtar completely. CCP vOv That wouldn't solve the overiding problem that Sentries are still by far the best fleet weapon in the game. That would at least limit their proliferation, if fleets could tank against one damage type when facing said nanogaf Ishtars. But I do agree, sentries on a cruiser hull? Be gone! I'd simply up the sentry m3 volume and increase battleships' drone bays to compensate - that way Ishtars won't be able to carry more than 2-3 sentries, while genuine sentry use could be delegated to battleships/carriers alone. But what do we know. vOv Cruisers Online. P.S. Dominix fleets of the future/past - We'd have to see about that potential meta. Domi sentry damage could also be restricted to Tm. First fix the Ishtar problem. ( -í° -£-û -í°)
McChicken Combo HalfMayo The Happy Meal 535	Posted - 2015.03.31 22:38:29 - [343] - Quote Subcap drone boats shouldn't even be a thing. Drone subcaps dominate many classes besides HAC. I'd prefer to see all drone bonuses removed from subcaps. Drones were actually originally intended to be supplemental weaponry, not a primary weapon system. Rebalance EWAR drones so the ships with large drones bandwidth / drone bays can use drones in a true supplemental role. There are all our dominion Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
Ncc 1709 Fusion Enterprises Ltd Shadow of xXDEATHXx 163	Posted - 2015.04.01 00:23:10 - [344] - Quote the nerf hasn't changed anything. Go back to 1 and start again
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 95	Posted - 2015.04.01 09:06:14 - [345] - Quote Another day. Another day in a nanu dron Ishtar. ( -í° -£-û -í°)
Shaklu Relentless Terrorism Already Disbanded 42	Posted - 2015.04.01 12:12:38 - [346] - Quote McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote: Subcap drone boats shouldn't be a thing. Drone subcaps dominate many classes besides the HAC department. I'd prefer to see all drone bonuses removed from subcaps. Drones were actually originally intended to be supplemental weaponry, not a primary weapon system. Rebalance the EWAR drones so the ships with large drones bandwidth / drone bays can use drones in a supplemental role. I dunno, I remember when I first started playing Gallente were introduced as primarily using their drones to deal damage, and that's actually why I didn't pick them. I think drone boats are okay, as long as they stay within their classes. Frig/Dessy should use light, cruisers medium, battleships large. The only exceptions should be minor - perhaps a Battlecruiser that can use 4 heavies or something.. but in no universe should cruisers be using full battleship weapons. Especially with bonuses to them. Heavy drones and Sentry drones are battleship weapons - Restrict the ability to use them from ALL ships besides Battleship and up. Powergrid/CPU restricts gun size Use Bandwidth/Drone bay to restrict drone types
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 203	Posted - 2015.04.10 07:17:03 - [347] - Quote After wading through all the bullshit and gimmicky solutions in countless threads, the real cause of all the great suffering has been identified: TerminalSamurai Sunji wrote: One of the most blatant things that I see in respect to the Ishtar compared to the other HACs is the fact that the Ishtar has way too many bonuses. This man is correct. Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed 10% bonus to Light, Medium, and Heavy Drone hit points and damage, 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hit points and damage Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level): 5000m bonus to Drone operation range 5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal rangeandtracking speed That's at least 6 bonuses. _______________________________________________________________ A Zealot has 4, or even three if you disregard the Activation cost: Amarr Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% reduction in Medium Energy Turret activation cost 5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret rate of fire Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret optimal range 5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage ________________________________________________________________ Muninn also four: Minmatar Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire 5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret optimal range 7.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret tracking speed * * * The same drone/sentry Optimal range and Tracking double bonus is also present on the Dominix --- In a situation where sentries/drones are a fully functioning primary weapons system that is unacceptable. WTB Apocalypse with Tracking+Optimal and a 10% Damage bonus. Remove the Optimal range part of the double bonus, and maybe combine Sentry 5% Tracking with Heavy Tracking 7.5% into one bonus. Thanks for listening to reason. Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Make BS & BC Worth the Warp! ( -í° -£-û -í°)
Rivr Luzade Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi 1321	Posted - 2015.04.10 07:38:07 - [348] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: The same drone/sentry Optimal range and Tracking double bonus is also present on the Dominix --- In a situation where sentries/drones are a fully functioning primary weapons system that is unacceptable. WTB Apocalypse with Tracking+Optimal and a 10% Damage bonus. Remove the Optimal range part of the double bonus, and maybe combine Sentry 5% Tracking with Heavy Tracking 7.5% into one. The Dominix' primary weapon are the drones. And the Dominix is a pure drone boat, nothing else. If you remove the Tracking/Optimal, you have a bad Armageddon. The number of bonuses you see is incorrect as well. You have either 4 (5 with the range) for heavy drone or you have 4 (5 with the range) for sentries or you have 2 (3 with range) for the light and medium drones. I don't see any discrepancy with other HACs as the bonuses do not affect all weapon sizes at the same time but only 1 size exclusively. The tracking bonuses for sentries on the Ishtar were decoupled from the mobile drone bonuses in order to reduce the effectiveness of the Sentrishtar. You do not want to have that back. On the Dominix, however, all the bonuses as they are make sense as sentries are a BS weapon. Or so I've been told time and time again. Your "reason", as you call it, really is of questionable nature. Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 203	Posted - 2015.04.10 07:43:22 - [349] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: On the Dominix, however, all the bonuses as they are make sense as sentries are a BS weapon. Or so I've been told time and time again. One more time: Apocalypse: Amarr Battleship bonuses (per skill level): 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret tracking speed Dominix: Gallente Battleship bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage 7.5% bonus to Drone optimal range and tracking speed Tempest: Minmatar Battleship bonuses (per skill level): 5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire 5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage Is the Dominix a brawling ship? A fleet ship? All of the above? Best spaceship? I'd love to get a 10% damage per level bonus on the Apocalypse. Oh, and make it so that all of the bonuses apply to Small, Medium and Large energy turrets. Ishtars Online Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Make BS & BC Worth the Warp! ( -í° -£-û -í°)
Rivr Luzade Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi 1321	Posted - 2015.04.10 07:53:33 - [350] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Is the Dominix a brawling ship? A fleet ship? All of the above? Best spaceship? I'd love to get a 10% damage per level bonus on the Apocalypse. Oh, and make it so that all of the bonuses apply to Small, Medium and Large energy turrets. Ishtars Online The Domi is many things, just like all drone boats. Until it runs out of drones. Besides, if you added 10% damage bonus to the Apoc, you'd get easily above 1k DPS. That sure is balanced. On the other hand, without the 10% damage bonus to drones on the Domi, you'd barely scratch 400 DPS with high DPS drones. That surely is balanced. Or remove the Optimal/Tracking bonus, then you have a Geddon without Neutralizer Bonus. Guess which ship is going to be less useful. Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 203	Posted - 2015.04.10 07:55:08 - [351] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: Or remove the Optimal/Tracking bonus, then you have a Geddon without Neutralizer Bonus. Don't try to steer away from the problem. I never said optimal and tracking needs removing. Only the Optimal part of the DOUBLE bonus. Carry on. Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Make BS & BC Worth the Warp! ( -í° -£-û -í°)
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 203	Posted - 2015.04.10 08:07:07 - [352] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: Besides, if you added 10% damage bonus to the Apoc, you'd get easily above 1k DPS. That sure is balanced. On the other hand, without the 10% damage bonus to drones on the Domi, you'd barely scratch 400 DPS with high DPS drones. Currently, a 3x DDA Domi without any comps/omnilinks does 580 DPS with Wardens @ 103+42km In a Tachy Apoc to reach those ranges, I have to fit 2 Tracking comps, or use Standards, giving me 462 DPS @ 91+25km. Balanced gaem, yo. Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Make BS & BC Worth the Warp! ( -í° -£-û -í°)
Rivr Luzade Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi 1321	Posted - 2015.04.10 08:13:07 - [353] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Rivr Luzade wrote: The number of bonuses you see is incorrect as well. Let's see, 7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed - That's two 10% bonus to Light, Medium, and Heavy Drone hit points and damage, 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hit points and damage - That's number 3. Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level): 5000m bonus to Drone operation range - Four 5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed - Five & Six Alright, we can count the Trackings as one. So 5 (five) in total. Don't forget that this CRUISER hull can instantly switch between Tachyon Beam Laser / 425mm range & damage, and Neutron Blaster Cannons whenever it feels like it. Albeit only two times, if abandoning sentries is required. That is 6 bonuses that apply independently to different weapon sizes. There are 2 bonuses for small, 4 for mobile large and 4 for mobile stationary. Throwing them all into one pot is tailoring the data to favor your argument, not objectively looking at what the data actually does. You also cannot count the tracking bonuses as one as they do not apply to the same drones. Counting the range bonus is a bit of a stretch as stationary drones cannot follow you around and mobile drones need to travel. In case you've forgotten, you can also not "instantly switch between" drones when you feel like it, there are cooldown timers and range limitations. Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 206	Posted - 2015.04.10 08:16:41 - [354] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: Throwing them all into one pot is tailoring the data to favor your argument, not objectively looking at what the data actually does. Forget Ishtar for a second, look at the clear example of the Tracking + Optimal double bonus on the Domi along with the damage bonus to all drone types. You think that's fine, while all the other battleships get two effective bonuses? I hope CCP is thinking. Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Make BS & BC Worth the Warp! ( -í° -£-û -í°)
Rivr Luzade Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi 1321	Posted - 2015.04.10 08:26:13 - [355] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Forget Ishtar for a second, look at the double Tracking + Optimal bonus on the Domi along with the damage bonus to all drone types. This thread is about the Ishtar, not the Dominix. If you want to discuss the Domi, this is the thread for you. I have already voiced my opinion there and you are also active there. Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 605	Posted - 2015.04.10 08:27:37 - [356] - Quote Ncc 1709 wrote: the nerf hasn't changed anything. Go back to 1 and start again Not sure how it got off the whiteboard in a conference room discussion in the first place. It wasn't the damage as the only issue. The flexibility in how you can apply it as another issue. Not sure how they don't see this.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 207	Posted - 2015.04.10 08:29:56 - [357] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Forget Ishtar for a second, look at the double Tracking + Optimal bonus on the Domi along with the damage bonus to all drone types. This thread is about the Ishtar, not the Dominix. They are the Ying and Yang of the sentry problem. Going by history, seeing as no one wants a moderate solution, the nerf bat will decimate both of these ships in the end. Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Make BS & BC Worth the Warp! ( -í° -£-û -í°)
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 2050	Posted - 2015.04.10 10:21:33 - [358] - Quote Ncc 1709 wrote: the nerf hasn't changed anything. Go back to 1 and start again need more time to see the results. Until other compositions are defined and traiend in mass into the ishtar fleets will continue. Such changes take time. Whent hey nerfed the hurricane, some whinners said that it was still overpowered because 2 weeks after the changes it was still the most used ship in pvp. Now.. a long time later.. they are as rare as a blue whale in a supermarket. "If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!" For the rest hire PoH \| Recruitment
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 2050	Posted - 2015.04.10 10:23:01 - [359] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Rivr Luzade wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Forget Ishtar for a second, look at the double Tracking + Optimal bonus on the Domi along with the damage bonus to all drone types. This thread is about the Ishtar, not the Dominix. They are the Ying and Yang of the sentry problem. Going by history, seeing as no one wants a moderate solution, the nerf bat will decimate both of these ships in the end. Well the dominix is still the most powerful battleship on most scenarios :) The other battleships should be pushed to same level as the domi. Sometimes I think ALL battleships should have 125 Bandwidth and 125 or MORE bay. Then you can nerf a bit the sentries.. and boost a bit the dominix base bonus. Voil+í... you balance battleships a bit, you nerfed ishtars and carriers.. and you have not moved the dominix. "If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!" For the rest hire PoH \| Recruitment
Atomeon The Scope Gallente Federation 26	Posted - 2015.04.10 21:59:15 - [360] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: Then you can nerf a bit the sentries.. and boost a bit the dominix base bonus. Voil+í... you balance battleships a bit, you nerfed ishtars and carriers.. and you have not moved the dominix. They DID nerfed the sentries, Bouncers (the most used sentries) lost optimal 6km and got in on fall off.
Mario Putzo 1171	Posted - 2015.04.11 00:27:42 - [361] - Quote The problem is the drones not the ship. Its not a fluke that CCP goes out and buffs drones, and suddenly we see 3 years of varying Drone only FOTM doctrines. Prophs, Gilas, Domis, Archons, Ishtars....what do they all have in common...Sentry Drones.
Bl1SkR1N Euphoria Released Triumvirate. 67	Posted - 2015.04.14 21:51:59 - [362] - Quote Remove domies tracking bonus and 1-2high slots. Remove ishtars range bonus. Problem solved and you still got pretty good, all around ships :)
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1121	Posted - 2015.04.14 22:43:51 - [363] - Quote all droneboats should have -3 slots.. and less bonuses too bring them back into line.. Tech 3's need to be multi-role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 slots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster eagle worth using
Liam Inkuras AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 1523	Posted - 2015.04.15 00:35:02 - [364] - Quote Harvey James wrote: all droneboats should have -3 slots.. and less bonuses too bring them back into line.. Yeah and just make them completely combat incapable while we're at it, great suggestion I wear my goggles at night. Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone
Tiddle Jr Galvanized Inc. 113	Posted - 2015.04.15 00:51:44 - [365] - Quote Harvey James wrote: all droneboats should have -3 slots.. and less bonuses too bring them back into line.. Wierd... Really
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 279	Posted - 2015.04.15 08:35:04 - [366] - Quote Bl1SkR1N wrote: Remove domies tracking bonus and Remove ishtars range bonus. Problem solved and you still got pretty good, all around ships :) Yes. ( -í~ -£-û -í-¦) // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Xe'Cara'eos A Big Enough Lever 256	Posted - 2015.04.15 09:30:59 - [367] - Quote 2 issues with the ishtar as it stands: ~No1a - cruiser using battleship class weapons (this turns it into a drone version of the attack BC's with T2 resists, a bonus to MWD usage, and a smaller sig rad, better align, etc) ~No1b - usage of drones leaves plenty of highslots free for further DPS or RR, as the player wants it ~No1c - enough drone space for multiple waves of sentries - which reduces the destruictibilityof drones as a destructible source of DPS ~No2 - sentry alpha is too good - what if you staggered all sentry damage from a single ship so that it occured a few times each tic, rather than once every tic? Quote: let's say a garde has a RoF of once every 5s, with a damage of 200/volley (numbers pulled out of the air), as things stand, 5 gardes will deal 1,000 dmg once every 5s, scaling up for drone assist to 11k perfect alpha, (iirc the drone assist changes correctly), and then it's staggered over 25 people as all the squad commanders sic their drones onto a target NEARLY simultaneously, resulting in 275k near-perfect alpha if sentry dmg was staggered, 5 gardes would deal 200 dmg every second, the dps scales up before, but the alpha is now 1/5th of what it was previously (for all situations), thus making it less effective a fleet weapon than before also if heavy drones kept their perfect alpha, and sentries lost theirs, it might give an incentive to use heavies more For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
Bl1SkR1N Euphoria Released Triumvirate. 68	Posted - 2015.04.27 08:38:08 - [368] - Quote Liam Inkuras wrote: Harvey James wrote: all droneboats should have -3 slots.. and less bonuses too bring them back into line.. Yeah and just make them completely combat incapable while we're at it, great suggestion would still be better than where it is right now.
Baali Tekitsu AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 766	Posted - 2015.04.27 10:08:30 - [369] - Quote Any ship with a projection, damage and application bonus will be overpowered and I have no idea why the ishtar/other drone boats still has all of them. Imagine the napoc having a damage bonus, the oracle a tracking bonus, Deimos a tracking bonus and the Muninn use a different weapon system. No matter how u turn it it will be oberpowered. RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 453	Posted - 2015.04.27 11:25:31 - [370] - Quote That seems like common sense, right? http://community.eveonline.com/news/patch-notes/patch-notes-for-odyssey-1.1 - Never Forget. Quote: ISHTAR: Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty. Gallente Cruiser Bonuses: 7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking(was 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage). 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage. Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses: 5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level. 7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed(was bonus to drone bay capacity). Just look what had been replaced with these double bonuses, which are the growing cancer of Eve. But never mind that, we'll just splinter and cut the damage afterwards. A little. I, three, would like a Zealot with an Optimal & Tracking rolled into one, on top of the RoF & Damage bonuses. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Phaade Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF 331	Posted - 2015.04.27 14:28:41 - [371] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: That seems like common sense, right? http://community.eveonline.com/news/patch-notes/patch-notes-for-odyssey-1.1 - Never Forget. Quote: ISHTAR: Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty. Gallente Cruiser Bonuses: 7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking(was 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage). 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage. Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses: 5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level. 7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed(was bonus to drone bay capacity). Just look what had been replaced with these double bonuses, which are the growing cancer of Eve. But never mind that, we'll just splinter and cut the damage afterwards. A little. I, three, would like a Zealot with an Optimal & Tracking rolled into one, on top of the RoF & Damage bonuses. Don't forget to give it drones, too.
Phaade Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF 331	Posted - 2015.04.27 14:31:56 - [372] - Quote Liam Inkuras wrote: Harvey James wrote: all droneboats should have -3 slots.. and less bonuses too bring them back into line.. Yeah and just make them completely combat incapable while we're at it, great suggestion The opinion of known exploiters is irrelevant.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1136	Posted - 2015.04.27 14:42:20 - [373] - Quote Tiddle Jr wrote: Harvey James wrote: all droneboats should have -3 slots.. and less bonuses too bring them back into line.. Wierd... Really ofc.. droneboats dont need highs for weapons so they effectively get free slots.. Tech 3's need to be multi-role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 slots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster eagle worth using
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1111	Posted - 2015.04.27 15:10:14 - [374] - Quote Harvey James wrote: Tiddle Jr wrote: Harvey James wrote: all droneboats should have -3 slots.. and less bonuses too bring them back into line.. Wierd... Really ofc.. droneboats dont need highs for weapons so they effectively get free slots.. No, the highs often see DLA, range is otherwise poor. Except the Ishtar, which doesn't even need those!!
Rivr Luzade Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi 1356	Posted - 2015.04.27 15:11:33 - [375] - Quote DLAs are high slot modules. After fitting DLAs, OTC or OTE, DDA, some tank and prop mod, you have next to no CPU left to fit something else. And I still stand by my demand that the Ishtar should just lose the application bonuses (Tracking and Optimal) and keep damage bonuses as before the latest nerf. Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1111	Posted - 2015.04.27 15:17:13 - [376] - Quote They could simply have binned the drone range bonus and reduced CPU such that the thing actually had fitting trade offs. Want range? Lose DDAs. Or go full glass cannon and drop tank.
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 577	Posted - 2015.04.27 15:23:17 - [377] - Quote Liam Inkuras wrote: Harvey James wrote: all droneboats should have -3 slots.. and less bonuses too bring them back into line.. Yeah and just make them completely combat incapable while we're at it, great suggestion Scale it then. Drone frigs lose 1 of their like 2 high slots, t1 cruisers lose 2 slots, weighted heavily towards 2 highs, t2 cruisers and up lose 3, weighted towards highs again. Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
13kr1d1 Hedion University Amarr Empire 104	Posted - 2015.04.27 15:56:38 - [378] - Quote You guys have freaking rigs that raise sentry drone damage, unlike any other drones. No other drones have damage rigs. Consider all the advantages turrets have over missiles, which is higher DPS and FULL damage application if angular velocity becomes very low, even for oversize guns (large sig resolution vs small radius). This is completely unlike missiles which still receive huge penalties hitting much smaller targets. Turrets are already powerful enough vs small stuff. Now add onto the fact that you have decentralized tracking from your own ship as a drone boat, in which angular velocity can get close to zero on the target numerous times as it flies around, and you have wrecking blows from battleship weapons onto frigs and other cruisers. Drone damage on drone boats should be half their DPS equation. Damage from their guns should be the other half. Capqu wrote: 17% damage reduction doesn't seem like it will fix the massive imbalance in damage done when the drake got gutted them main thing targeted was application, and i think you should look at that for the ishtar too its simply too good at all different kinds of ranges bouncers have crazy range and tracking at that range gardes have battleship damage and cruiser tracking and scorch range pve wise wasps have frigate tracking and battleship damage and you can be afk and have warpcore stabs fit so there really isnt any reason to use any other ship [other than a vexor navy because its the same thing but cheaper LOL] honestly 17% damage off the top of the sentry part seems irrelevant in on a ship which had battleship damage and yet its main imbalance is was flexibility why can it fit and run 100mn AB with no fitting mods btw? it has fitting/cap regen for guns yet does not need to fit them, i think addressing this would help edit: im not suggesting gutting it like the drake, which was clearly terrible and resulted in a bad ship [and weapon sysem] but i do think harsher treatment is necessary here So maybe drone boats the fitting should be much less for them if their main damage is in drones, because of how drones are a weapon system that take no fitting. There's tons of ways in which drone boats have been way too strong for a long time. At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
13kr1d1 Hedion University Amarr Empire 104	Posted - 2015.04.27 16:09:07 - [379] - Quote Aiyshimin wrote: This will achieve the goal of making Ishtars less useful, but unfortunately does nothing to make other ships useful. Range and speed are overpowered in EVE, and only doctrines with damage projection and mobility work. In other words, people will just use the next platform that outranges others while remaining mobile, leaving whole shipclasses gathering dust in hangars. Kind of like Punisher in solo pvp. The problem is there's not a lot of options to to deal with that. Yes, Damps and TDs exist, but they can be either hard or impossible to fit, or really nerf a ships overall power beacuse as you said, damage and mobility are much more powerful. As more and more people are using drone boats in FW, such as worms and dragoons, TDs are becoming more useless, because the main damage application for droners is a bunch of tiny fast ships its useless to try to deal with in a short lived fight. Drones overall are the flavor of the year, not the month. It'd be nice if slower ships, that are meant to be slow tanky heavy hitters, actually had viability. (punisher, etc). At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
Joanna RB Twenty Questions RAZOR Alliance 18	Posted - 2015.04.27 20:13:22 - [380] - Quote The problem here was the ill thought out introduction of drone damage amplifiers. All of a sudden, drones changed from a handy secondry weapon (or afk-ratting trick) into primary-weapon DPS territory. However ships were not changed to accommodate the change in role of drones to a primary weapon. Sentries are battleship-grade weapons. The Ishtar having sentries is now like giving the muninn 1400's (or more, unbonused sentries can out-damage unbonused 1400's at both its minimum and maximum range, and out-track them by a HUGE amount). Really the only sub-caps using 5 sentries should be the domi and geddon. Perhaps reducing the bw on heavies to 100 and aiming BC and HAC droneboats at 100 bw would help?
Bl1SkR1N Euphoria Released Triumvirate. 69	Posted - 2015.04.27 20:17:20 - [381] - Quote Imo there are two bad things which happened.... giving domi/ishtar heavy drone modes while also introducing drone modes which augmented it even more removing of need for guns without making changes to high slot layouts. This nerf was hardly enough and requires tougher approach.+ê Ishtars would be back in line if they got removed range bonus. This would actually require pilots to use their brains. Domies would badly need to lose atleast 2high slots. So it actually has to make choices when fitting. Reduction to tracking would be good as well to make it more look like a battleship. It has plenty of slots for tracking mods.
Rivr Luzade Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi 1357	Posted - 2015.04.27 20:21:00 - [382] - Quote Joanna RB wrote: The problem here was the ill thought out introduction of drone damage amplifiers. All of a sudden, drones changed from a handy secondry weapon (or afk-ratting trick) into primary-weapon DPS territory. However ships were not changed to accommodate the change in role of drones to a primary weapon. Sentries are battleship-grade weapons. The Ishtar having sentries is now like giving the muninn 1400's (or more, unbonused sentries can out-damage unbonused 1400's at both its minimum and maximum range, and out-track them by a HUGE amount). Really the only sub-caps using 5 sentries should be the domi and geddon. Perhaps reducing the bw on heavies to 100 and aiming BC and HAC droneboats at 100 bw would help? Because drones are the primary weapon for drone boats. That is why they are called Drone Boats. And again, 5 Sentries on an Ishtar without range and tracking bonus make sentries next to useless against anything below BS. Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 460	Posted - 2015.04.27 21:43:19 - [383] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: Joanna RB wrote: The problem here was the ill thought out introduction of drone damage amplifiers. All of a sudden, drones changed from a handy secondry weapon (or afk-ratting trick) into primary-weapon DPS territory. However ships were not changed to accommodate the change in role of drones to a primary weapon. Sentries are battleship-grade weapons. The Ishtar having sentries is now like giving the muninn 1400's (or more, unbonused sentries can out-damage unbonused 1400's at both its minimum and maximum range, and out-track them by a HUGE amount). Really the only sub-caps using 5 sentries should be the domi and geddon. Perhaps reducing the bw on heavies to 100 and aiming BC and HAC droneboats at 100 bw would help? Because drones are the primary weapon for drone boats. That is why they are called Drone Boats. And again, 5 Sentries on an Ishtar without range and tracking bonus make sentries next to useless against anything below BS. "Next to useless without the Optimal range bonus" Excuse me, but I've had it with all this bull. Tell me the **** do I reach these ranges on a Zealot - NEVERMIND reaching that EHP or matching the DPS on such setups: 1) http://i.imgur.com/GqTO6zd.png 2) http://i.imgur.com/cP7kPvH.png Five sentries on that cruiser hull is BULL. ****. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
13kr1d1 Hedion University Amarr Empire 106	Posted - 2015.04.27 22:34:31 - [384] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: Joanna RB wrote: The problem here was the ill thought out introduction of drone damage amplifiers. All of a sudden, drones changed from a handy secondry weapon (or afk-ratting trick) into primary-weapon DPS territory. However ships were not changed to accommodate the change in role of drones to a primary weapon. Sentries are battleship-grade weapons. The Ishtar having sentries is now like giving the muninn 1400's (or more, unbonused sentries can out-damage unbonused 1400's at both its minimum and maximum range, and out-track them by a HUGE amount). Really the only sub-caps using 5 sentries should be the domi and geddon. Perhaps reducing the bw on heavies to 100 and aiming BC and HAC droneboats at 100 bw would help? Because drones are the primary weapon for drone boats. That is why they are called Drone Boats. And again, 5 Sentries on an Ishtar without range and tracking bonus make sentries next to useless against anything below BS. Almost like sentries should be used to fight BS, and smaller drones should be used to fight smaller ships? Le gasp At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
Bl1SkR1N Euphoria Released Triumvirate. 70	Posted - 2015.04.28 05:34:15 - [385] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: Joanna RB wrote: The problem here was the ill thought out introduction of drone damage amplifiers. All of a sudden, drones changed from a handy secondry weapon (or afk-ratting trick) into primary-weapon DPS territory. However ships were not changed to accommodate the change in role of drones to a primary weapon. Sentries are battleship-grade weapons. The Ishtar having sentries is now like giving the muninn 1400's (or more, unbonused sentries can out-damage unbonused 1400's at both its minimum and maximum range, and out-track them by a HUGE amount). Really the only sub-caps using 5 sentries should be the domi and geddon. Perhaps reducing the bw on heavies to 100 and aiming BC and HAC droneboats at 100 bw would help? Because drones are the primary weapon for drone boats. That is why they are called Drone Boats. And again, 5 Sentries on an Ishtar without range and tracking bonus make sentries next to useless against anything below BS. It should be without either range or tracking. One of them would be fine. For other one you can fit modes
Rivr Luzade Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi 1357	Posted - 2015.04.28 05:38:12 - [386] - Quote As said before in the thread (page 5 or whatever), I would very much welcome that Ishtar lose their tracking and range bonus for Sentries. That would be much more helpful to put it back into place with other HAC than the slight dps nerf it received recently. Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
Lodinko Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.04.28 07:15:30 - [387] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: As said before in the thread (page 5 or whatever), I would very much welcome that Ishtar lose their tracking and range bonus for Sentries. That would be much more helpful to put it back into place with other HAC than the slight dps nerf it received recently. Apparently removing clever ways of using game mechanics like garage cynos is more important for ccp than doing something good
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 463	Posted - 2015.04.29 05:13:52 - [388] - Quote Bl1SkR1N wrote: Rivr Luzade wrote: Joanna RB wrote: The problem here was the ill thought out introduction of drone damage amplifiers. All of a sudden, drones changed from a handy secondry weapon (or afk-ratting trick) into primary-weapon DPS territory. However ships were not changed to accommodate the change in role of drones to a primary weapon. Sentries are battleship-grade weapons. The Ishtar having sentries is now like giving the muninn 1400's (or more, unbonused sentries can out-damage unbonused 1400's at both its minimum and maximum range, and out-track them by a HUGE amount). Really the only sub-caps using 5 sentries should be the domi and geddon. Perhaps reducing the bw on heavies to 100 and aiming BC and HAC droneboats at 100 bw would help? Because drones are the primary weapon for drone boats. That is why they are called Drone Boats. And again, 5 Sentries on an Ishtar without range and tracking bonus make sentries next to useless against anything below BS. It should be without either range or tracking. One of them would be fine. For other one you can fit modes Hack the optimal - Gallente are known for Tracking bonuses. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1123	Posted - 2015.04.29 06:40:24 - [389] - Quote Drones will always appear inflated because the ships that don't have any I can count on one hand. Probably. It's early. Really for these charts, they need to show us the numbers. Or at the VERY least, a scale and a key to stop guesswork.
Rivr Luzade Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi 1370	Posted - 2015.04.29 06:50:11 - [390] - Quote I wonder if it is possible to discern between drone usage as secondary weapon system (BS like the Apoc, Abaddon or Sacrilege, Vagabond) and primary weapons system (like Worm, Gila, Dominix, Ishtar, Vexor). That graph should be somewhat different. Will it sill fit the narrative to suit the argument? Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1123	Posted - 2015.04.29 07:03:34 - [391] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: I wonder if it is possible to discern between drone usage as secondary weapon system (BS like the Apoc, Abaddon or Sacrilege, Vagabond) and primary weapons system (like Worm, Gila, Dominix, Ishtar, Vexor). That graph should be somewhat different. Will it sill fit the narrative to suit the argument? Likely, although cruisers will change a lot because of med rails. I preferred this style of chart anyway. http://i.imgur.com/yfeQpc4.jpg
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 475	Posted - 2015.04.29 14:53:48 - [392] - Quote afkalt wrote: Drones will always appear inflated because the ships that don't have any I can count on one hand. Probably. It's early. Really for these charts, they need to show us the numbers. Or at the VERY least, a scale and a key to stop guesswork. I agree in principle on some ship types, but other HACs' drone bays and bandwidth is negligible. It's a graph released with the sentiment that Battleship and Battlecruiser usage is gud. Well, no more graphs for your in the future guys. http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/balance-changes-coming-in-scylla/ Quote: THE ISHTAR The problem: Ishtars are too good. They are squashing out diversity in several environments because of their excellent damage projection and solid survivability Our thoughts: - First, we wanted to establish whether the problem was more about the Ishtar or more about Sentry Drones. The data makes a pretty convincing case that it really is mostly the Ishtar. While several other ships (Dominix, Navy Vexor, Archon, etc.) are making use of sentries, none of them are anywhere near as sentry reliant as the Ishtar and none of them are coming close to the overall damage that Ishtars represent on TQ. After deciding to just make a change to Ishtars, we considered what approach would be the most elegant. Options included changes to the bonuses, changes to base attributes (moving a mid slot was one example here), or possibly screwing around with sentry drone bandwidth use and adjusting other ships as needed. Eventually we settled on the bonuses, even though it means having the only drone damage bonus below 10% per level in the game. Changes: 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage becomes 10% bonus to Light, Medium, and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage, 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage So projection and solid survivability is a an issue, so we reduce damage a little. Brilliant. It's like Odyssey 1.1 Patch notes got lost in time. vOv // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]

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