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[Proposal] Get rid of learning implants.

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Shaera Taam Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance 8	Posted - 2011.12.06 03:30:00 - [91] - Quote once upon a time my corp lived in nullsec and we had a ball with small-scale pvp then i got my first set of +4s and got so freaked out about losing them that i froze in a bubble instead of burning for it, like id trained to do from my first step into GW. needless to say, i got podded and lost them all. it took that loss to show me how stupid id been about it all. im not in a terrible hurry for level 5 anything, so what difference does it make? since then, i havent plugged in a single implant, training times be damned. im a much happier pod-pilot now, btw, and pod kills mean little more than a nice quick ride home, haha. as to the OPs suggestion, i like it. makes nice simple sense to me... oh, and i secretly think the guys in my corp get a little rise out of it when they hear on TS that their only verified female corp-member is 'flying naked' Thus Spake the Frigate Goddess!
Andski GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1181	Posted - 2011.12.06 03:30:00 - [92] - Quote Sephiroth CloneIIV wrote: Intar Medris wrote: I think the real damn problem is that it would take 37.5 years to train all skills to 5. Which is ridiculously stupid. Skill training has been seriously flawed from the beginning. It is horrendously slow, and takes entirely too long. EVE isn't going to be around forever people, or atleast not this incarnation of it. It is almost nine years old. I think at max training time of say 4-6 years is more in line with reality. You don't have to train every skill to level 5 Are you seriously considering training every racial capital including titans, to 5, all combat subcap ships, mining ships. Add to that skills in market production, and research, and god knows how many category. Just a hint, you don't need to. Go for basics. If you have ridiculous amounts of personal isk to buy a titan you can buy a char as well. I can nearly perfect train a market alt in about a month, that is where the real isk is anyway. listen to this man, he has a monocle~
Jonas Xiamon 30	Posted - 2011.12.06 05:28:00 - [93] - Quote Kinda want... Not sure though. Questions, comments, complaints? Please feel free to reply, I'll be serving coffee and ice cream soon.
Eperor Skyforger Tactical Narcotics Team 5	Posted - 2011.12.06 08:59:00 - [94] - Quote + 1 suportthis this realy discorege ppl form pvp
Rina Asanari State War Academy Caldari State 21	Posted - 2011.12.06 09:03:00 - [95] - Quote Not supported. Losing the ship is one level of hurt, losing the imped clone should remain a second one. That argument "it would remove a barrier to PvP" fails when looking at the REALLY expensive implant sets - the typical learning implants are just a pittance compared to the values a number of players (even PvPers) have in their skulls. "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose" - you can extend that sentence to your implants as well.
Andski GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1185	Posted - 2011.12.06 09:19:00 - [96] - Quote Rina Asanari wrote: Not supported. Losing the ship is one level of hurt, losing the imped clone should remain a second one. That argument "it would remove a barrier to PvP" fails when looking at the REALLY expensive implant sets - the typical learning implants are just a pittance compared to the values a number of players (even PvPers) have in their skulls. "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose" - you can extend that sentence to your implants as well. thanks for your contribution, faceless forum alt!
Kjel Keikira Jovian Heritage 0	Posted - 2011.12.06 12:19:00 - [97] - Quote Surprised to see this request coming from the Goon camp. That said, i like this side of them \o/ . This is indeed a logical request. Many times have I given up on a nights worth of pvp, as those 24 hours with sub-par implants in my throw away combat clone, just seem a waste of training time. Is a perfectly reasonable suggestion. +5 base to all. everyone's a winner (in some cases there will be whiners, there always are) Definitly an idea i think is worthy for more discussion & consideration.
Shaera Taam Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance 8	Posted - 2011.12.06 15:31:00 - [98] - Quote Rina Asanari wrote: Losing the ship is one level of hurt, losing the imped clone should remain a second one. That argument "it would remove a barrier to PvP" fails when looking at the REALLY expensive implant sets - the typical learning implants are just a pittance compared to the values a number of players (even PvPers) have in their skulls. "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose" - you can extend that sentence to your implants as well. agreed on the point of not flying what you cant afford to lose but im afraid your argument on the 'expensive implants' part is a bit off... OP is not advocating the removal of all implants, just the learning ones. the ones you assert are a mere 'pittance.' if there's an across-the-board means of compensating for their removal (the +5 stat boost talked about earlier), there where is the downside? adding more implants for operational buffs (combat, mining, exploration, etc) would be a nice addition to our favorite sandbox. win theres always gonna be people that are afraid of pvp, for whatever reason. with this proposal we get rid of an outdated mechanic and some new shinies to try to avoid losing in pvp no flame intended, nor feeding of the trolls... the more i think about it, the more i like this, and just want to foster some genuine discussion Thus Spake the Frigate Goddess!
Jerick Ludhowe Shadow Legion Industries Dark Phoenix Rising. 27	Posted - 2011.12.06 18:32:00 - [99] - Quote Sweet troll thread. Thanks for the laugh guys.
Blastfizzle Quondam Souls of the Universe corporation THE R0NIN 42	Posted - 2011.12.06 18:48:00 - [100] - Quote Agreed!
Obsidiana White-Noise 27	Posted - 2011.12.06 21:42:00 - [101] - Quote Keep them. Look, Eve is about choices. With implants you have a lot, esp. since jump clones came about. First, +3 and +4 are pretty cheap. The older the player, the more true this is. Second, you only ever use two of these implants at a time. If you remap focusing on two attributes, then you only need two implants. You can also mix and match. You can do a +5 and a +4 for near maximum training yet a risk worth taking. You can do a +4 and a +3 for a little boost over +3s. For crying out loud, donGÇÖt fly in low/nullsec with a full set. When I was out there I just used two +3s, had spares, and kept them with my jump clone. ItGÇÖs not a big deal. We need to focus on the real issue: Costs. The costs are fairly high for +5s. The costs for +3s is high for a new player. There is an easy fix for that. Lower the costs of implants, release +6s and +7s at the current +5 price, and call it a day. This also doesnGÇÖt address the +5% implants. The problem is the same there. It gives a direct boost at a high price that gives an incentive to stay in highsec. Again, a person has the same options and the same problems. There is no way to make people happy short of giving them skills. People are not patient. All the time I see posts about increasing learning speed, getting back skill points, giving people unallocated skill points, letting people (through an obscure method) buy skill points. This whole thread is a GÇ£we want to train fasterGÇ¥ thread. That is never going to change. Attribute implants are just a scapegoat that people can focus on. Since learning skills where removed attribute implants are the next target. This will either force everyone to train more slowly, give everyone maximum training speeds, or end up somewhere in the middle. The next target is attributes themselves, and people are already clamoring about removing those. After that, all people can ask for is faster training time. Why? Because they ran out of targets/scapegoats. Highsec Envy is no Excuse. All the time I see complaints about highsec mission runners, incursion fleets, trading, etc. We used to see complaints about highsec mining until ganking became so common. Those who live in highsec are always going to be more likely to use expensive gear, high priced ships, and gasp costly implants. That leads me to my next pointGÇª Add Attribute Boosters. Make them easy and cheap to produce out in nullsec. Heck, make them illegal in empire. Sure some will smuggle them in, but at a nice profit level, increasing the rewards of nullsec. Make them last 24hrs (boosted to 48 w/ skills). If you die while under the influence of these, who cares? They would lose their effect soon and need to be replaced anyway. You could change them more often than a remap too. Heck, then use +2s with these and get a cheap boost. The Justification is Choices We should have a choice of how we train. There should be ways to increase and optimize that rate at an expense and risk. Individuals should be in control of this tradeoff. Those who deem the risk too high have made their choice; that choice should not affect anyone elseGÇÖs. Other Repercussions to Consider A secondary reason is that they are a good ISK/LP sinks and serve as a GÇ£highsec taxGÇ¥ as it were. With 6 clones, 5 slots, and most of the population in highsec, it has to be a huge ISK and LP sink. Just removing it from the game when there are not enough ISK/LP sinks is a bad idea.
FloppieTheBanjoClown The Skunkworks Petition Blizzard 376	Posted - 2011.12.06 22:23:00 - [102] - Quote Meh. I got podded the day before Crucible and lost three +4s. It's entirely possible to simply choose to accept the risk of losing those implants. Also, don't shove every implant in your head that will fit. Only buy what you need. You might as well propose removing all expensive implants as well. Faction sets cost a lot of isk and no one wants to risk those in nullsec, so let's just drop them from the game to save you from jumping clones.
FloppieTheBanjoClown The Skunkworks Petition Blizzard 376	Posted - 2011.12.06 22:36:00 - [103] - Quote Obsidiana wrote: There is no way to make people happy short of giving them skills. People are not patient. All the time I see posts about increasing learning speed, getting back skill points, giving people unallocated skill points, letting people (through an obscure method) buy skill points. This whole thread is a GÇ£we want to train fasterGÇ¥ thread. That is never going to change. Attribute implants are just a scapegoat that people can focus on. I'd say most people would be happy with the ability to pay plex to release skill points. Most of us made a lot of mistakes early on and could free up anywhere from 1-3 million SP if there were a way to do so. It takes about 3.5 million SP to train a new racial battleship with T2 weapons (assuming you have the requisite support skills). That's frigate, cruiser, and battleship 4, and all of the weapon systems skill required for the large T2 skill at level 4. With +4 implants it takes two months to be able to change from one set of ships to another. For those of us who have been playing less than 2 years, that's a substantial percentage of our time in the game spent training skills we won't use. And then there are the L5 command skills necessary for T2/T3 ships. I'm expanding my command skills to other races right now and I admit, I'm getting impatient. It's going to take a long time for me to reap the rewards of training all these skills. Meanwhile, SP I wasted in my noob days go unused. So yeah, I'd use up some PLEX to get SP back if it were available. I wouldn't want to be able to buy SP; that would be potentially game-breaking and definitely a step too close to pay-to-win.
Andski GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1195	Posted - 2011.12.07 00:26:00 - [104] - Quote FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: Meh. I got podded the day before Crucible and lost three +4s. It's entirely possible to simply choose to accept the risk of losing those implants. Also, don't shove every implant in your head that will fit. Only buy what you need. You might as well propose removing all expensive implants as well. Faction sets cost a lot of isk and no one wants to risk those in nullsec, so let's just drop them from the game to save you from jumping clones. Newbies don't generally have the option to only plug in two implants based on what they're training, though. Please read the OP instead of blindly extrapolating from the first two sentences.
Esunisen Les Tueurs de Killer Une Pour Tous 24	Posted - 2011.12.07 01:23:00 - [105] - Quote All skills lvl V for everyone. Problem solved.
Krios Ahzek Juvenis Iratus 232	Posted - 2011.12.07 02:24:00 - [106] - Quote Esunisen wrote: All skills lvl V for everyone. Problem solved. Also replace the game engine with twitch gameplay while you're at it I live, I post, I slay. I am content.
Esunisen Les Tueurs de Killer Une Pour Tous 25	Posted - 2011.12.07 04:14:00 - [107] - Quote And a Hello Kitty Kestrel so i can mine Veldspar for Chribba
Evenus Battuta 13	Posted - 2011.12.07 06:31:00 - [108] - Quote 1.Kill learning implants with proper compensation. 2.Make combat implants various enough, don't make them another "must" equipment. 3.Various other non-combat like social implants, as well as PI implants.
Evenus Battuta 13	Posted - 2011.12.07 06:45:00 - [109] - Quote If you are really going to remove learning implants, RECYCLE THEIR ICONS! All combat implants with the same icon is a pain in the ass, use the icons of learning implants to make them more distinguishable like grouped by gunnery/navigation/shield/armor etc.
Andski GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1212	Posted - 2011.12.07 06:53:00 - [110] - Quote Evenus Battuta wrote: 1.Kill learning implants with proper compensation. Attribute boosts aren't "proper compensation?"
Obsidiana White-Noise 27	Posted - 2011.12.07 06:53:00 - [111] - Quote Andski wrote: Newbies don't generally have the option to only plug in two implants based on what they're training, though. Please read the OP instead of blindly extrapolating from the first two sentences. I respectfully disagree. Two implants in particular would be very effective: perception and intelligence. I think CCP would agree with me as they are giving those implants out for free. While +3s may be too costly for a new player, +2s and +1s are not. A new player typically is not expected to have access to the entire game. That said, I suggested making current plants cheaper. Cost is the real issue. As for the OP bullets: Point 1 response: Cost is the real issue, thus lower them. Point 2 response: See attribute boosters (illegal in highsec) above. Point 3 response: We need the isk/LP sink while attribute boosters would have nothing to do with LP. Point 4 response: Boosters could take them to +5 levels. I see nothing wrong with +5/6/7 pirate implants. As for the summary, not to be condescending, but it only makes sense in the "we all want to train faster" or the "we want something for nothing" sense. I would like to see the reverse happen: more attribute augmenters added, and the potential for future attribute boosts (mutators, black cyber implants, or Jovian gene manipulation anyone?). A Short History of +5 Implants At one point +5s were out of the question, worth a billion isk each. Most had +3s or +2s; a few had +4s, but those were costly too. Since the LP store came into existence, the cost of +5s came down. Then the price point was in line with highsec availability, especially for mission runners who get them at a discount (and oh the angst against mission runners). Now we have a GÇ£haves and havenotsGÇ¥ case whereas before the perception was that almost no one had them. Attribute Boosters (cont.) Nullsec GÇ£havenotsGÇ¥ have the strongest argument, having risk but not ready access to implants (lowsec, you have L5 agents). I can relate; I had a hard time getting my +3s and spares out there. Attribute boosters would reverse the situation, making the GÇ£havenotsGÇ¥ the GÇ£haves.GÇ¥ Implemented correctly, this addresses the problem of cost and availability. This also adds content to the game, an incentive to go to nullsec, and rewards the risk of nullsec (esp. if the boosters were +2/4/6 in power). Again, not to be condescending, but the OP flattens the game. Pushing the Envelope I would like to see new elements of the game that increase learning rates. This has happened before. The second set of learning skills were warmly received initially. Lower implant prices put +5s in the hands of many happy players. Remaps thrilled those with poor attributes and good attributes alike. Giving away learning skill attributes and giving back skill points was met with huge support. While removing learning implants seems like the next step, I see it as a cap on learning speeds, not a boost. Faster training will make all players happy, but I think this is more about costs and GÇ£haves and havenotsGÇ¥ more than anything else. Attribute boosters, mutators, better learning implants, and other ways to increase learning speeds periodically released are what I want to see added to the game.
Rina Asanari State War Academy Caldari State 22	Posted - 2011.12.07 07:00:00 - [112] - Quote Evenus Battuta wrote: If you are really going to remove learning implants, RECYCLE THEIR ICONS! As if learning implant would ever be removed... It's simple: If I fear losing the implants because I may get podded, I wouldn't undock, thus making no money. It's the same as with ships: If you don't want to risk it, why have it at all? But that's a personal choice everyone has to make for himself.
Evenus Battuta 13	Posted - 2011.12.07 07:14:00 - [113] - Quote Andski wrote: Evenus Battuta wrote: 1.Kill learning implants with proper compensation. Attribute boosts aren't "proper compensation?" I mean compensation to those have them in hanger----you cannot just make their property vanish. Boosters will also be 'bad' if they become a 'must' instead of 'optional'. that is to say, without side effect and everyone should use.
Cidwm Caldari Provisions Caldari State 11	Posted - 2011.12.07 20:41:00 - [114] - Quote dear gods, the goons do have a swarm mentality o.O so far i havnt seen ne post made by you guys/with your participation that hasnt been flooded with repsonses from both TEST and Goonwaffe and there affiliates! back on topic though: I think implants are fine to be honest. If you dont want to foot the bill and the loss of the implants should you get podded, then its like saying ban pirate/faction modules and ammo! yet they ae used in PVP were the risk of getting blown up is high depending on what is being done at the time.
Goose99 Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 299	Posted - 2011.12.07 20:47:00 - [115] - Quote Lulz@ goon entitlements. Must be able to get podded at no cost. I want the good stuff, but not consequences. Nothing is "must." No one is preventing you from undocking because you don't have implants in your head. Don't plug in what you can't afford to lose.
Mibad Caldari Provisions 40	Posted - 2011.12.07 22:12:00 - [116] - Quote Get rid of them, same with remaps. I remember when I was a noob training all the core weapon and ship skills, I calculated I lost like 1-2 months of training a year into the game because I wasn't mapped for perc/will (fell into the charisma blackhole). I never really pvp'd in nullsec cause fear of losing my learning implants too. Eventually I got a jump clone, but it wasn't really used for travel like the skill is intended. I just used it when important fleet ops came up so I wouldn't lose my learning implants. If players are not min/maxed for training,especially noobs, they are just hurting themselves in the long run. Lots of potential SP down the drain. Just like the learning skills. ISK can be lost and replaced, but lost training time cannot be replaced. This prevents many people like myself who didn't want to pvp because you could lose training time.
Obsidiana White-Noise 30	Posted - 2011.12.08 02:39:00 - [117] - Quote New players can get the cerebral accelerator (box editions are still out there). They also start with all the points from the old learning skills, a standard well balanced set of attributes, and the tutorials give away skills and even ships (at least tier one industrials). Cybernetics 1 gives you access to most of the learning implants. The prices on +1/2/3s have come way down over the years. Oh, plus two remaps. Honestly, I think new players have it pretty good. Mistakes will be made. This is not because of attributes, but because a player is new. If you can't afford to lose two implants, I don't know how you can afford to lose a ship or replace a clone. Why no one here is using +2s or +3s is beyond me. If there isn't enough profit in nullsec, that is the real issue. Btw, not everyone in highsec has a full set of +5s. Some are smart and just use two at a time. Some just go for a +5 and a +4. Still others don't see the benefit of an extra few hours a month and stick with +3s. It is a choice everyone has to make. I also keep hearing about barriers between fun, but I disagree. You can throttle attributes to train faster, balance them to perception and intelligence to give the best overall training times, or balance them out for all around decent training. It lets you choose what you want to train faster, lowering the barrier of fun. Granted, you have to know about skills, the game, and how to play it well. That goes for fittings, tanking, damage, trading, and anything else in Eve. If remaps were removed, chances are we would end up training at a slower, more general speed, hurting players top training speed. The barrier to fun would be increased. If implants were less costly, booster were introduced, and new implants were released, then the barrier to fun would be reduced.
Andski GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1231	Posted - 2011.12.08 05:11:00 - [118] - Quote Goose99 wrote: white noise posting forum alts are seen but not heard
Tomytronic GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 34	Posted - 2011.12.08 11:17:00 - [119] - Quote Evenus Battuta wrote: If you are really going to remove learning implants, RECYCLE THEIR ICONS! All combat implants with the same icon is a pain in the ass, use the icons of learning implants to make them more distinguishable like grouped by gunnery/navigation/shield/armor etc. How about combat implants just have a properly descriptive name instead of the bad scrabble-hand they have now?
Zenedia Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2011.12.08 19:18:00 - [120] - Quote Im in favor of flat rate to train 1x skill, everything is a multiple thereof. I've dealt with and said many times that I cannot do XXX because I'm remapped as YYY/ZZZ for the next QQQ months.

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