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Alizebeth Amalath
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2015.03.07 04:19:22 -
[1] - Quote
Currently, in the Amarr Empire, Mandate and the Kingdom, slaves are currently brought and sold in great numbers on the SCC Markets-the capsuleer markets.
This cannot stand. The ownership of slaves is heavily restricted in the Empire. Frankly, there should be no sell orders from any of the Imperial agencies, like the Civic Court or the Amarr Civil Service, of slaves on the capsuleer market.
I call on the appropriate agencies to remove their sell orders at once. |
Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
727
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 04:20:55 -
[2] - Quote
Signed. Only Holders are legally allowed to own slaves, not any fool with a capsuleer license. Reform this practice at once. |
Bel Boma
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
11
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Posted - 2015.03.07 04:51:26 -
[3] - Quote
Signed. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1350
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 04:52:41 -
[4] - Quote
Ownership of slaves by commoners and foreigners is a crime against God, and the Civic Court acts in defiance of God by exploiting the SCC's loopholes to line their own pockets by selling slaves to those who have no right to ownership. As has the Kingdom been doing since its inception. Both of these have allowed such despicable acts as the Butcher's blood sacrifices, as well as the blood sacrifices made by other blooder elements infesting the 24IC after the Arzad and Huola victories, which have resulted in the deaths of millions of faithful and which have been condemned by Grand Inquisitor Ohrud Omel of the Ministry of Internal Order. Through acting as an enabler for these evil acts, the Civic Court, the Khanid Kingdom, and the SCC all make themselves equally culpable in the crimes committed and so deserve to have God's justice brought upon them.
Not only do they enable evil to be done against God's people, but in their rejection of Scriptural law and exploitation of foreign trading do they spit upon our holy traditions. Through this act do they marginalize the divine rights of Holders as the sole individuals allowed ownership. The worlds of the Heavens are to be ruled by the Amarr, and by the sale of slaves to foreigners do the Civic Court and Khanid Kingdom reject God's mandate and demonstrate that they have no respect for God's Chosen.
It is heresy and the sin of greed. It blasphemes against Amarr's traditions and against God, and it allows for great evil to be carried out upon the faithful. It must be ended and its conspirers punished.
Signed. |
Eli Sariah
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
49
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Posted - 2015.03.07 05:02:32 -
[5] - Quote
Signed
"A manu dei e tet rimon" - I am the devoted hand of the divine God.
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Arkon Sarain
Crown Commerce and Trade Organization
3
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 08:06:35 -
[6] - Quote
Dear Bishop Amalath,
Of course you also have my endorsement, such as it is, for this petition.
Your humble servant,
Dr. Arkon Sarain
"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin."
The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Arkon's Adagia
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Utari Onzo
13.
Enigma Project
162
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 09:29:13 -
[7] - Quote
Signed
New York, Paris, Peckham, Jita
13. is recruiting
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Charles Surge
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
5
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 13:21:58 -
[8] - Quote
Signed.
The current situation is against God. |
Lord Kailethre
Oruze Cruise
34
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Posted - 2015.03.07 13:22:12 -
[9] - Quote
Signed |
U'tah Arareb
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
22
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Posted - 2015.03.07 14:01:09 -
[10] - Quote
Signed,
My own Sebastian I have by lease... but allowing anyone to purchase slaves on an open market reduces them to chattel.
Despite claims otherwise, that is not the case for Amarrian slaves... they are in our care.
Additionally allowing such sales empowers monstrous acts like those of the Vile Nauplius, whose wholesale slaughter of a Million lives were remembered last night in a moving ceremony. |
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Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
329
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 14:32:23 -
[11] - Quote
Not Signed
A large percentage of Amarrian Empyreans are Holders. These people need to be able to obtain slaves from somewhere.
In the Khanid Kingdom, commoners may own slaves. These people also need to be able to obtain slaves from somewhere.
Finally, slaves were created by God for his Chosen to glorify God. Removing slaves from SCC markets denies Empyreans the opportunity to glorify God by use of slaves. I believe this current petition is based on anti-Nauplius prejudice, a work of people who wrongly oppose the way the I glorify God in the destruction of slaves. |
Frenjo Borkstar
Lost Valkyries
Absolute Darkness
43
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 14:37:56 -
[12] - Quote
Not signed.
This is outrageous! If I cannot obtain slaves to use in my experiments and research, then other methods would have to be persued. Methods which I would prefer not to use, but will if necessary.
Still, for the record, this is a bad decision - But only a minor inconvenience to myself.
Dr. Frenjo Borkstar,
(Acting) Coordinator of Arek'Jaalan,
The Borkstar Initiative.
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Lunarisse Aspenstar
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
309
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 14:40:22 -
[13] - Quote
As always, Lieutenant Kernher says it best. Signed. |
Rictor Thellere
Rictor Thellere Private Trade Corporation
24
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Posted - 2015.03.07 14:41:16 -
[14] - Quote
Absolutely signed,
Out of respect I will not hijack this into an abolition movement,
that being off the table if such trade is to continue I'd rather it be in the hands of those that can be held accountable. |
Johanes Beaumonte
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
52
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 14:41:35 -
[15] - Quote
Nauplius wrote:Not Signed
A large percentage of Amarrian Empyreans are Holders. These people need to be able to obtain slaves from somewhere.
In the Khanid Kingdom, commoners may own slaves. These people also need to be able to obtain slaves from somewhere.
Finally, slaves were created by God for his Chosen to glorify God. Removing slaves from SCC markets denies Empyreans the opportunity to glorify God by use of slaves. I believe this current petition is based on anti-Nauplius prejudice, a work of people who wrongly oppose the way the I glorify God in the destruction of slaves.
Eh? This exactly why. Unaccountable Capsuleer Fruitcakes! Signed. |
Kithrus
Tzedakah
Aegis Militia
340
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 14:44:03 -
[16] - Quote
Signed |
Tirva Vistu
The Anahitan Society
1
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 14:54:51 -
[17] - Quote
The Anahitan Society supports this.
Signed. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3195
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 15:00:08 -
[18] - Quote
Signed.
One more step to getting rid of slavery completely.
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
988
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 15:14:11 -
[19] - Quote
Slavery is abhorrant in any way shape or form. As a counter proposal I suggest that the Empires with any form of moral backbone call for the total abolishment of this practice and reward those who liberate any unfortunate enough to be trapped in such an existence. |
U'tah Arareb
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
22
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Posted - 2015.03.07 15:19:34 -
[20] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh
what part of
Quote:And to those foreigners who will try to interject here and call for abolition: Don't. If you value the life and health of slaves, don't derail this thread. You would only be weakening this proposal and hurting the very people you want to protect.
did you not understand? |
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Tony-Vagabond Carter
Rictor Thellere Private Trade Corporation
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 15:31:32 -
[21] - Quote
Signed, with a proposed Amendment:
As such trade IS legal within the bounds of Ammar and related space,
Limit transport contract issuance to authorized Agents only.
That way "Holders" can still transport slaves as needed. |
Lord Kailethre
Oruze Cruise
34
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Posted - 2015.03.07 15:35:24 -
[22] - Quote
U'tah Arareb wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh what part of Quote:And to those foreigners who will try to interject here and call for abolition: Don't. If you value the life and health of slaves, don't derail this thread. You would only be weakening this proposal and hurting the very people you want to protect. did you not understand?
He probably didn't even bother reading it.
Most likely he saw slavery and remove in the same sentence and jumped to the conclusion that it was time for another activist rally. |
Albizu Zateki
Cult of the Lash
39
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 15:51:45 -
[23] - Quote
NOT SIGNED
The truth of matter is that the Holders see their grasp on the Empire slipping more every day, like sand in a fist. There is no altruism in this petition. There is no honor in supporting it. This is a cry for help from a group of spoiled, self-entitled brats who see other people having fun with their toys.
Less slaves? I say more slaves! With competative pricing! Minmatar would not be worth much. Say, 5 isk for a healthy male. Too much trouble, too much pressure from the Republic. Too willful. Gallente would be slightly higher in cost, but have top prices in the realms of pleasure. Caldari would make the best workers. But the most rotten, demeaning, dangerous and filthy work would be reserved for Amarr. Especially the Holders. They have strayed furthest from God, so their penance must be greatest. That's what I use my Amarr slaves for. And let me tell you friends, you have never heard a man pray more reverently, than when he is first fitted for a shock collar.
There are many who would turn this petition into an abolitionist cause. If you want the Empire to stop slavery, cut off their ability to produce VITOC. 90% of slave owners in the Empire do nothing for the spirtitual well-being of their property. They figure service is enough for their souls. They do not teach. Instead, they pump their cattle full of VITOC poison and reap the benefits of free labor.
There is one constant in this universe. Pain. If you want to stop a slave hound from biting, you inflict pain. If you want the Amarr to stop holding slaves, make the cost of their system too high to afford.
"Bloody Omir's coming back.
Monsters from the endless black.
Wading through a crimson flood,
Omir's come to drink your blood."
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Daerrol
Furtherance.
41
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Posted - 2015.03.07 15:52:18 -
[24] - Quote
As if Imperial law extends to us. I find it laughable at people's attempts to dictate what we can and cannot do. As individuals, we should be treated as sovereign entities, peers only to leaders of nations and each other. Amarrian traditions? It baffles me how other capsuleers can cling to these "everyman" issues.
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Foley Aberas Jones
Huogikku Corporation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
175
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 15:52:29 -
[25] - Quote
Frenjo Borkstar wrote:Not signed.
This is outrageous! If I cannot obtain slaves to use in my experiments and research, then other methods would have to be persued. Methods which I would prefer not to use, but will if necessary.
Still, for the record, this is a bad decision - But only a minor inconvenience to myself.
**** off
If this will stop slaves form getting into this ****'s hands as well as Nauplius, Then i would like to toss my signature in.
Signed |
Karmilla Strife
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
286
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 16:28:06 -
[26] - Quote
Signed |
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1910
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 16:55:03 -
[27] - Quote
The SCC marketplace is an excellent place to trade slaves, even if it does mean that those not worthy of holding slaves can deal in them.
Therefore, rather than an outright ban I favour an amendment to the SCC's procedures so that undesirables cannot trade in slaves.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
|
Evi Polevhia
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
815
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 17:39:40 -
[28] - Quote
Inconsequential Lunatics wrote:Not signed.
No one gives a ****. Crawl back in to your holes. |
Foley Aberas Jones
Huogikku Corporation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
176
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 18:28:59 -
[29] - Quote
Evi Polevhia wrote:Inconsequential Lunatics wrote:Not signed. No one gives a ****. Crawl back in to your holes.
It saddens me that i can only like this post once...God Damn IGS and their limits.....
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Lyn Farel
Kitzless
908
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 18:33:54 -
[30] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:The SCC marketplace is an excellent place to trade slaves, even if it does mean that those not worthy of holding slaves can deal in them.
Therefore, rather than an outright ban I favour an amendment to the SCC's procedures so that undesirables cannot trade in slaves.
That sounds like the most productive course of action. |
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Ston Momaki
Disciples of Ston
1388
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 18:38:05 -
[31] - Quote
Signed
And furthermore... DSTON has pressed for inter-sovereignty agreements granting automatic "Freed Slave" status for all illegally smuggled slaves entering non-slave space. Make slave smuggling unprofitable or nearly so. In other words, put DSTON out of business. Make the deathcan a thing of the past. The SCC could easily make all slaves "unsaleable" in non-slave space. It jsut needs to be done.
The Disciples of Ston bid you peace
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
988
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 18:55:18 -
[32] - Quote
U'tah Arareb wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh what part of Quote:And to those foreigners who will try to interject here and call for abolition: Don't. If you value the life and health of slaves, don't derail this thread. You would only be weakening this proposal and hurting the very people you want to protect. did you not understand?
The part where people believe that slavery is good for the life and health of those who suffer it. I'm thinking if you offered the slaves freedom and a life where they can make their own way they would be somewhat happier with their lives. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
988
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 19:03:01 -
[33] - Quote
Lord Kailethre wrote:U'tah Arareb wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh what part of Quote:And to those foreigners who will try to interject here and call for abolition: Don't. If you value the life and health of slaves, don't derail this thread. You would only be weakening this proposal and hurting the very people you want to protect. did you not understand? He probably didn't even bother reading it. Most likely he saw slavery and remove in the same sentence and jumped to the conclusion that it was time for another activist rally.
Actually I did read it all. The fact that I detest such a practice has nothing to do with reading comprehension and everything to do with believing that all have the right to live free. |
Alizebeth Amalath
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 19:16:16 -
[34] - Quote
Thank you, Samira, for your words in support. I don't think that I could have said it better myself.
Rodj Blake wrote:The SCC marketplace is an excellent place to trade slaves, even if it does mean that those not worthy of holding slaves can deal in them.
Therefore, rather than an outright ban I favour an amendment to the SCC's procedures so that undesirables cannot trade in slaves.
For holders there are much better markets than the SCC market.
However, this petition is only calling for a cessation of sell orders from Imperial, Khanid and Mandate agencies. The transport of slaves (on agent work, for example) would still be legal. The buy orders by the various agencies and powers should stay in place as well, as a way for capsuleers that acquire slaves (from death cans, wrecks or otherwise) to place them back in the Imperial system where they can be properly Reclaimed. |
Kalaratiri
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
512
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 19:32:13 -
[35] - Quote
Hmm.
Signed.
She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.
This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums. -á- CCP Falcon
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Foley Aberas Jones
Huogikku Corporation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
176
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 19:49:27 -
[36] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:U'tah Arareb wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh what part of Quote:And to those foreigners who will try to interject here and call for abolition: Don't. If you value the life and health of slaves, don't derail this thread. You would only be weakening this proposal and hurting the very people you want to protect. did you not understand? The part where people believe that slavery is good for the life and health of those who suffer it. I'm thinking if you offered the slaves freedom and a life where they can make their own way they would be somewhat happier with their lives.
Dude i don't believe slavery is good either ..i personally dislike it...but we cant just immediately abolish it...If **** was that easy then we wouldn't even be discussing this...
what we can do is try to improve their lifestyle by leaving them to the care of...somewhat more responsible holders rather than batshit insane capsuleers that don't follow certain guidelines that holders sometimes do......Did you not see Nauplius' thread were he just bought and wiped out a small city population worth of slaves? I take it you didn't
But if you truly cared about the slaves you would sign the petition so we can prevent **** like that from happening again
|
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1357
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 20:03:33 -
[37] - Quote
There isn't any need to argue with Mr. Farsaidh. He's stated his opinion and that is enough that needs to be said on either side. If he does not wish to sign the petition then he does not have to.
Thank you to everyone that has voiced your support. |
ValentinaDLM
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
612
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 20:20:45 -
[38] - Quote
I am torn, there are capsuleers who take advantage of the SCC markets to purchase them and then Smuggle them away from thier life of slavery. I don't care about what rights holders have but, I do find myself caring much more what happens to slaves, especially Matari ones.
I would be willing to sign off on this if I could be sure it was the right thing to do, but as of now I am not so sure. I have after all bought thousands of slaves from the SCC market to relocate them to Stain where thry could live happy lives. |
Alizebeth Amalath
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
12
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Posted - 2015.03.07 20:36:05 -
[39] - Quote
It seems like the Sani Sabik and Sansha supporters have made my argument for me. |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
6742
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 20:38:06 -
[40] - Quote
Consider it signed.
While slavery in and of itself is not an institution I'm fond of, I can understand it and support it in this context: that a master or lord improves the lives of those beneath him, by virtue of education, right action, and obligation. Uplift is a noble thing, and the institution has value only insofar as it allows uplift.
Clearly, capsuleers are not well-suited to such a noble purpose, as we see with that cracked facsimile of an experimenter, Borkstar, or that blood-soaked madman, Nauplius, or that vacant-eyed minion of Sansha, Valentina.
Slaves should be held only by those who are indeed able to fulfill their duty to lift them up.
Priano Trans-Stellar: elegant solutions for the State's needs.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
988
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 20:48:59 -
[41] - Quote
Foley Aberas Jones wrote:...
But if you truly cared about the slaves you would sign the petition so we can prevent **** like that from happening again
Signing this petition or not would not change anything with regards to lunatics murdering people whether they are 'legally' owned or not.
As stated by Samira I have made my point and counter proposal. To my mind the complete abolishment of slavery *is* the only option that would help as you can't make such a state of existence 'less slavey' or own 'happy slaves'.
Others will obviously do as they will but in all conscience (an odd concept for many capsuleers admittedly) I could not let such a petition go by without voicing my concerns and opinion. I will simply keep releasing any slaves I find in the meantime and give them freedom to live as they wish on my colonies. I may not be able to change an Empire's policies but I can do everything else within my power to change the lives of those I come in contact with. |
Evi Polevhia
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
820
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 20:53:52 -
[42] - Quote
Alizebeth Amalath wrote:It seems like the Sani Sabik and Sansha supporters have made my argument for me.
Hey now. Be careful how broad of a brush you have your slaves paint me with. I spoke out on this thread on your side. |
Dutarro
Ghezer Aramih
72
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 21:46:22 -
[43] - Quote
Signed, and may this cause us to reflect on the morality of slavery overall.
Samira Kernher wrote:And to those foreigners who will try to interject here and call for abolition: Don't. If you value the life and health of slaves, don't derail this thread. You would only be weakening this proposal and hurting the very people you want to protect.
And what of fellow Amarrians who call for abolition?
|
Eran Mintor
Furtherance.
851
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 22:22:53 -
[44] - Quote
Signed.
Though keep in mind a lot of slaves on the SCC market are not "Amarrian" slaves but ones captured by Angel Cartel and other slavers.
-Eran |
Alizebeth Amalath
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
12
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 22:49:39 -
[45] - Quote
Evi Polevhia wrote:Alizebeth Amalath wrote:It seems like the Sani Sabik and Sansha supporters have made my argument for me. Hey now. Be careful how broad of a brush you have your slaves paint me with. I spoke out on this thread on your side.
I have no slaves. And if you spoke for the proposal, then you were helping my argument.
Eran Mintor wrote:
Though keep in mind a lot of slaves on the SCC market are not "Amarrian" slaves but ones captured by Angel Cartel and other slavers.
My concern is the sell orders from Greater Amarrian agencies. I have no illusions about being able to control SCC markets in outlaw territories. |
Evi Polevhia
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
823
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 22:58:15 -
[46] - Quote
Alizebeth Amalath wrote:Evi Polevhia wrote:Alizebeth Amalath wrote:It seems like the Sani Sabik and Sansha supporters have made my argument for me. Hey now. Be careful how broad of a brush you have your slaves paint me with. I spoke out on this thread on your side. I have no slaves.
Apologies. Must be all these mass generalizations flying about. |
Lord Kailethre
Oruze Cruise
37
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 23:24:57 -
[47] - Quote
Dutarro wrote:Signed, and may this cause us to reflect on the morality of slavery overall. Samira Kernher wrote:And to those foreigners who will try to interject here and call for abolition: Don't. If you value the life and health of slaves, don't derail this thread. You would only be weakening this proposal and hurting the very people you want to protect. And what of fellow Amarrians who call for abolition?
This would not be the place to discuss it. |
Blue spy
Eclipse Navy
Brave Collective
33
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 01:01:25 -
[48] - Quote
Ridiculous!
This petition is an attempt by petty ideologues from both the Minmatar and Amarrian side of this debate to force a neutral financial entity whose purview is to oversee our markets for the betterment of all, to adopt a distinctively partisan stance for the benefit of some.
If the Amarrian holders want to be the only dealers in slaves they should compete on the free market like everybody else. What next? Should we ban all non-caldari missiles, or give the Federation a monopoly on soft-drinks because its culturally significant to them?
Keep your religion and politics out of my market! |
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
329
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Posted - 2015.03.08 01:11:22 -
[49] - Quote
Alizebeth Amalath wrote:
My concern is the sell orders from Greater Amarrian agencies. I have no illusions about being able to control SCC markets in outlaw territories.
Ban the sale of slaves to Empyreans in Amarr space and I shall travel to the vast slave markets of the Angel Cartel, buy 1,000,000 filthy Minmatar subhumans there, and sacrifice them all unto the glory of a holy and righteous God.
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Maria Daphiti
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
21
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Posted - 2015.03.08 01:23:03 -
[50] - Quote
Signed!
And go away Nauplius. |
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Blue spy
Eclipse Navy
Brave Collective
33
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Posted - 2015.03.08 01:23:10 -
[51] - Quote
Nauplius wrote:Alizebeth Amalath wrote:
My concern is the sell orders from Greater Amarrian agencies. I have no illusions about being able to control SCC markets in outlaw territories.
Ban the sale of slaves to Empyreans in Amarr space and I shall travel to the vast slave markets of the Angel Cartel, buy 1,000,000 filthy Minmatar subhumans there, and sacrifice them all unto the glory of a holy and righteous God.
If we can band together and protect our free market it might never have to come to that. Support your local non-holder slave dealers, people. |
Deitra Vess
Scope Works
Overload Everything
289
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 01:25:47 -
[52] - Quote
Nauplius wrote:Alizebeth Amalath wrote:
My concern is the sell orders from Greater Amarrian agencies. I have no illusions about being able to control SCC markets in outlaw territories.
Ban the sale of slaves to Empyreans in Amarr space and I shall travel to the vast slave markets of the Angel Cartel, buy 1,000,000 filthy Minmatar subhumans there, and sacrifice them all unto the glory of a holy and righteous God.
So you'd buy your slaves off of a group with a notably large Matari Population? Even down to having a bastardized version of the Matari tattooing rituals? Wow..... |
Alizebeth Amalath
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
13
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Posted - 2015.03.08 01:50:16 -
[53] - Quote
Nauplius wrote:Alizebeth Amalath wrote:
My concern is the sell orders from Greater Amarrian agencies. I have no illusions about being able to control SCC markets in outlaw territories.
Ban the sale of slaves to Empyreans in Amarr space and I shall travel to the vast slave markets of the Angel Cartel, buy 1,000,000 filthy Minmatar subhumans there, and sacrifice them all unto the glory of a holy and righteous God.
Okay. |
Merdaneth
Tzedakah
Aegis Militia
350
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 02:15:38 -
[54] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:The SCC marketplace is an excellent place to trade slaves, even if it does mean that those not worthy of holding slaves can deal in them.
Therefore, rather than an outright ban I favour an amendment to the SCC's procedures so that undesirables cannot trade in slaves.
My opinion is congruent with that of Admiral Blake on this matter.
No blanket bans. Merely introduce proper checks and balances. |
Thea Isotalo
Black Rise Colonial Exploration
22
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Posted - 2015.03.08 02:20:32 -
[55] - Quote
Albizu Zateki wrote:
Less slaves? I say more slaves!
This is why we don't....This...
This is why you got fired!
I know we're supposed to be allies of the Amarr and all, but seriously. How much longer does the State have to be complicit in a perpetual crime against humanity?
SIGNED. But you people really need to get a new religion.
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Alizebeth Amalath
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
13
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Posted - 2015.03.08 02:35:27 -
[56] - Quote
Merdaneth wrote:Rodj Blake wrote:The SCC marketplace is an excellent place to trade slaves, even if it does mean that those not worthy of holding slaves can deal in them.
Therefore, rather than an outright ban I favour an amendment to the SCC's procedures so that undesirables cannot trade in slaves. My opinion is congruent with that of Admiral Blake on this matter. No blanket bans. Merely introduce proper checks and balances.
Trying to change the SCC is a futile gesture that results in nothing but good feelings for having tried.
Changing the policy of the Imperial and Khanid institutions that sell slaves on the SCC market is a much more attainable and specific goal.
If you or Admiral Blake have a plan that is achievable, measurable and specific, I would love to hear it. |
Shalee Lianne
Imperial Angels
166
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 05:24:12 -
[57] - Quote
/ signed
Lady Shalee Lianne
http://amarrian.blogspot.com/ -á~ Roleplay blog. http://sovereigntywars.wordpress.com/ ~ Faction War blog.
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Bel Boma
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
17
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 05:29:25 -
[58] - Quote
Okay, people.
No one cares about your stance on slavery, neither for nor against.
The thread does not exist for you to voice your opinions on the matter. Either sign or don't. Debate about it elsewhere. |
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
Anomalous Existence
Low-Class
209
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 05:38:06 -
[59] - Quote
Signed, and forwarded for consideration to other interested members of Low-Class. The SCC market should *not* have standing orders for a "commodity" that is considered contraband in multiple empires -- it's a subtle endorsement of the slave trade by the SCC, which I strongly doubt is their intent.
How would you feel if the SCC put standing sell orders for Drop up in, say, Jorund or Poitot? |
Claudia Osyn
Limited Existance
1089
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 07:02:25 -
[60] - Quote
All of my support, if for no other reason then it would inconvenience Nauppie. Also, obligatory: slavery is bad, grr.
The lack of money is the root of all evil.
|
|
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Christine Peeveepeeski
Low Sec Concepts
714
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 08:34:01 -
[61] - Quote
Signed, i also suggest that any living person should not be on the free maket.
Janitors, tourists, exotic dancers and the rest. It should be their choice who they work for NOT some capsuleer who has set an arbitrary price for their services. We should not be involved in their choices in any way beyond offering a wage. It should be up to the individual to accept.
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Celestia Via
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
68
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 09:41:46 -
[62] - Quote
Thank you.
Thank you all!
There's no place like space
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
4529
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 10:50:05 -
[63] - Quote
Signed. Buy or sell the Labour of a person, not the person.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1360
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 11:27:20 -
[64] - Quote
It should be noted that this proposal is a call to end the sale of slaves to those who have no divine right to own them. It is not a call to end slavery. If you are signing, what you are advocating for is an end to the liberal business practices that have resulted in the sale of slaves through SCC loopholes to non-Holders.
I will ask once again that people please refrain from trying to make this a call for abolition of slavery, because that will only ensure that this measure fails to convince the people it is hoping to convince. This proposal is a call to preserve Amarrian traditions against the evils that have resulted of a foreign-introduced liberal free market.
Slaves belong to Amarrian Holders and no others. |
Celestia Via
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
68
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 11:48:21 -
[65] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:It should be noted that this proposal is a call to end the sale of slaves to those who have no divine right to own them. It is not a call to end slavery. If you are signing, what you are advocating for is an end to the liberal business practices that have resulted in the sale of slaves through SCC loopholes to non-Holders.
I will ask once again that people please refrain from trying to make this a call for abolition of slavery, because that will only ensure that this measure fails to convince the people it is hoping to convince. This proposal is a call to preserve Amarrian traditions against the evils that have resulted of a foreign-introduced liberal free market.
Slaves belong to Amarrian Holders and no others.
Your own divine leader has moved towards the abolition of slavery! Do you feel it wise to question her? ...Nevermind, this is none of my concern.
Even so, it is a small step to the right direction.
"We marched for days and nights, under sun, in the rain. Our minds and bodies ached for rest, but in our hearts there was nothing but the fight."
|
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1362
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 12:02:18 -
[66] - Quote
Her Imperial Majesty has only said that the time for chains is ending, but that day is not today. It will happen in a manner and time of God's choosing.
Until that time we must work to preserve slavery according to proper tradition and Scripture, and resist attempts to turn it into a secular profiteering venture.
Thank you again to those that have supported this. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
4529
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 12:19:57 -
[67] - Quote
I was referring to the Capsuleer market, of course. What our allies (and enemies) get up to in their sovereign space is a matter for them.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Haria Haritimado
EVE University
Ivy League
24
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 12:50:44 -
[68] - Quote
This petition seems to be a proper answer to some recent proclamations. I support the initiative.
Character blog: Horizons and Reflections
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Albizu Zateki
Cult of the Lash
40
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 14:32:59 -
[69] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:It should be noted that this proposal is a call to end the sale of slaves to those who have no divine right to own them. It is not a call to end slavery. If you are signing, what you are advocating for is an end to the liberal business practices that have resulted in the sale of slaves through SCC loopholes to non-Holders.
I will ask once again that people please refrain from trying to make this a call for abolition of slavery, because that will only ensure that this measure fails to convince the people it is hoping to convince. This proposal is a call to preserve Amarrian traditions against the evils that have resulted of a foreign-introduced liberal free market.
Slaves belong to Amarrian Holders and no others.
Yes, do sign.
By signing, that means YOU SUPPORT SLAVERY!
Dolts.
It means that not only do you support it, you support the Holder system that originated it and you vote to keep the Holders and the institution of slavery going strong in High Sec Amarr.
Of course, if you come out to Delve, The Covenant has slaves of all sorts. End slavery in Amarr and it will continue among the Covenant, the Angels, anywhere we roam.
And if you find yourself supporting CONCORD or the Sisters (lovely little blood scouts some of them are), you should probably ask yourself why they don't do a thing to "end slavery."
It matters not. You can vote and petition all you want. You will change nothing.You might as well throw snowballs at a star and hope to extinguish its light.
"Bloody Omir's coming back.
Monsters from the endless black.
Wading through a crimson flood,
Omir's come to drink your blood."
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Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
332
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 14:37:34 -
[70] - Quote
I would have the readers of this forum remember that I am a Khanid Commoner and thus a rightful and legal slave-owner.
I would also add that like all slave-owners, I have the right to find my slaves guilty and pronounce sentences of death upon them.
All that I have done is exercise my legal rights to own lots of slaves and pronounce sentences of death upon all of them. |
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Lord Kailethre
Oruze Cruise
41
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 14:56:30 -
[71] - Quote
Nauplius wrote:I would have the readers of this forum remember that I am a Khanid Commoner and thus a rightful and legal slave-owner.
I would also add that like all slave-owners, I have the right to find my slaves guilty and pronounce sentences of death upon them.
All that I have done is exercise my legal rights to own lots of slaves and pronounce sentences of death upon all of them.
Your legality to own slaves is not in question here. Re-read the original post.
This is a petition to cease illegal or loopholed slave trading by the SCC markets. If you are able to own slaves you have other ways to acquire them. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1366
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 15:06:29 -
[72] - Quote
The Butcher is not a legal slave owner in Amarr, regardless of what practices the Kingdom deals in. |
Alizebeth Amalath
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
17
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 17:26:28 -
[73] - Quote
I'm fairly certain that the Kingdom doesn't let heretics buy slaves by the million and execute them for the 'red god.' |
Jennifer Starfall
Repracor Industries
107
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 17:32:43 -
[74] - Quote
Personally, signed.
On behalf of Repracor Industries, signed.
Jennifer Starfall
Media & Communications
Repracor Industries
|
Shaera Taam
Khanid Prime Free Irregulars
173
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 21:14:30 -
[75] - Quote
Despite my own opinions on the issue of Abolition, I shall honor Ms Kernher's request for a debate-free petition.
/signed
Thus Spake the Frigate Goddess!
|
Slobodan Hawkwood
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
3
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 21:35:49 -
[76] - Quote
Signed
"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
Paladin's Creed
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Eran Mintor
Furtherance.
855
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 21:37:31 -
[77] - Quote
I like watching Blood Raiders squirm.
-Eran |
Merdaneth
Tzedakah
Aegis Militia
351
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 22:05:31 -
[78] - Quote
Alizebeth Amalath wrote:Merdaneth wrote:Rodj Blake wrote:The SCC marketplace is an excellent place to trade slaves, even if it does mean that those not worthy of holding slaves can deal in them.
Therefore, rather than an outright ban I favour an amendment to the SCC's procedures so that undesirables cannot trade in slaves. My opinion is congruent with that of Admiral Blake on this matter. No blanket bans. Merely introduce proper checks and balances. Trying to change the SCC is a futile gesture that results in nothing but good feelings for having tried. Changing the policy of the Imperial and Khanid institutions that sell slaves on the SCC market is a much more attainable and specific goal. If you or Admiral Blake have a plan that is achievable, measurable and specific, I would love to hear it.
If I wanted to change Imperial and Khanid institutions, I would do it in the form of a petition. Petitions reek of Gallente culture: a culture of self-entitlement.
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Katerina Tzestu
Reikoku
Pandemic Legion
10
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 22:32:45 -
[79] - Quote
Alizebeth Amalath wrote:I'm fairly certain that the Kingdom doesn't let heretics buy slaves by the million and execute them for the 'red god.'
We don't. Signed. |
Blue spy
Eclipse Navy
Brave Collective
33
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 22:49:57 -
[80] - Quote
While I understand that this petition could have had a more likable list of opponents, I would like to encourage everybody here to at least attempt to understand exactly what Nauplius and Albizu are attempting to explain.
This petition is not a step forward in the abolition of slavery; nor will it result in any meaningful strides made in the welfare of slaves. What this petition will do is codify into law the divine right for Amarrian holders, and only Amarrian holders to engage in the practice of buying and selling slaves. I encourage any Minmatar and abolitionists here to look over this petition again, and ask yourself this question... "Why should we legitimise the Amarrian slave trade?"
This petition is not sacrosanct; it's an attempt to corner a market and muscle out external competition. There's no mercy or kindness in it so why humour it by treating this petition as if it is some kind of benevolent gesture above scrutiny? |
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1369
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 23:12:32 -
[81] - Quote
Blue spy wrote:What this petition will do is codify into law the divine right for Amarrian holders, and only Amarrian holders to engage in the practice of buying and selling slaves.
No, it is not codifying a divine right, because that divine right already exists as law in Scripture. It is encouraging the enforcement of that law in SCC transactions. That law is already enforced in local Amarrian economic policies and has been for thousands of years. Holders are and have always been the sole legal owners of slaves in Amarr.
We cannot allow foreign free markets to break down our traditions, especially with the kind of heretical consequences that have arisen from that erosion.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Evi Polevhia
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
828
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 23:19:18 -
[82] - Quote
Blue spy wrote:While I understand that this petition could have had a more likable list of opponents, I would like to encourage everybody here to at least attempt to understand exactly what Nauplius and Albizu are attempting to explain.
This petition is not a step forward in the abolition of slavery; nor will it result in any meaningful strides made in the welfare of slaves. What this petition will do is codify into law the divine right for Amarrian holders, and only Amarrian holders to engage in the practice of buying and selling slaves. I encourage any Minmatar and abolitionists here to look over this petition again, and ask yourself this question... "Why should we legitimise the Amarrian slave trade?"
This petition is not sacrosanct; it's an attempt to corner a market and muscle out external competition. There's no mercy or kindness in it so why humour it by treating this petition as if it is some kind of benevolent gesture above scrutiny?
This petition is not legitimizing the Amarrian slave trade, it's taking the slave trade out of the hands of non-Holder Capsuleers. This will not affect the vast majority of legitimate Holders from acquiring slaves.
This petition will prevent the likes of Nauplius, me, and blood bathing crazy 24th IC Militia Members from acquiring easily mass amounts of cheap slaves. This is considered by many to be a good thing. And all things considered, even I will not speak out against it.
You say it is not a step forward to abolishing slavery. Well, true. But neither is it a watermelon. Anyone who claims it is something it's not needs to look closer. The swarm of signatures are not coming because of a move to abolish slavery, but rather restrict slaves from falling in to the hands of cruel and uncaring capsuleers. Take your stance in this matter wisely. |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
1673
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 23:20:10 -
[83] - Quote
A simpler solution would be to rebrand slaves sold on the SCC markets as, "Crew (Indentured)". Less hassle, and I daresay the fact they are listed on SCC databases simply as crew would make their purchase, sale, and potential destruction much less of a contentious issue in the public domain.
That aside, sure why not, I'll sign. Human trafficking should be something for the black markets, conducted by shady and dubious people, and not legitimized on the SCC markets where it offends my humanitarian sensibilities while I'm looking to purchase some high explosive ordnance, armaments, and the accoutrements of violence. |
Alizebeth Amalath
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
18
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 23:24:54 -
[84] - Quote
Merdaneth wrote:Alizebeth Amalath wrote:
Trying to change the SCC is a futile gesture that results in nothing but good feelings for having tried.
Changing the policy of the Imperial and Khanid institutions that sell slaves on the SCC market is a much more attainable and specific goal.
If you or Admiral Blake have a plan that is achievable, measurable and specific, I would love to hear it.
If I wanted to change Imperial and Khanid institutions, I would do it in the form of a petition. Petitions reek of Gallente culture: a culture of self-entitlement.
I could have started by filing suit in Theology Council courts against the Civic Court for violation of Canon Law. That seemed unduly hostile as a first step, though.
You, Reverend, could actually come up with a plan that keeps those we have an obligation to out of the hands of lunatics and murders like I asked, instead of an automatic gainsaying.
In this thread, there Blood Raiders admitting that they need to buy those slaves to experiment on, torture and murder. There is a Sansha supporter that admits to buying slaves to take to Stain, where they undoubtedly become mindless drones. There are Minmatar that buy slaves to smuggle them across the border. And you quibble and sneer about how a petition is the 'wrong way to do it.' It frankly makes me sick. |
Blue spy
Eclipse Navy
Brave Collective
33
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 23:28:22 -
[85] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Blue spy wrote:What this petition will do is codify into law the divine right for Amarrian holders, and only Amarrian holders to engage in the practice of buying and selling slaves. No, it is not codifying a divine right, because that divine right already exists as law in Scripture. It is encouraging the enforcement of that law in SCC transactions. That law is already enforced in local Amarrian economic policies and has been for thousands of years. Holders are and have always been the sole legal owners of slaves in Amarr. We cannot allow foreign free markets to break down our traditions, especially with the kind of heretical consequences that have arisen from that erosion.
I was not aware that divine law factored into the day-to-day operations of the SCC. But while we are on the topic of Amarrian imperialism, what other steps can the cluster make to better accommodate to, and pander to the Amarr?
My arguement isn't about abolition. Whether you sign this petition or not; will make no difference to the wellbeing of the average slave. It won't save them from Nauplius he has the means, and resources to simply bypass the SCC entirely. Instead you're just guaranteeing and pandering to the belief of Amarrians that they have some god given right right to keep and own slaves. You're merely signing off to offer your support to that notion.
I would have thought thay any Minmatar worth his salt would rather chop his or her own hand off than bend the knee to the notion that Amarrians have the right to own slaves. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1370
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 23:30:40 -
[86] - Quote
Merdaneth wrote:If I wanted to change Imperial and Khanid institutions, I would do it in the form of a petition. Petitions reek of Gallente culture: a culture of self-entitlement.
With all due respect, milord...
While I understand that there was much chaos in the early years of this decade that were of much graver concern than this, it is something that needs to be changed. I do not normally approve of this kind of petition, but if getting on our hands and knees and begging en masse is the only way to see this evil ended then it would be irresponsible of us to not do it. I will take whatever punishment is due to me for overstepping my place if it would see this horrid practice changed.
If you know of a better way to go about this, then please tell me and I will do it. As a commoner I have little other power than my pleas, and can only beg my betters to take these matters to our heirs on my behalf.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Alizebeth Amalath
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
18
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 23:31:37 -
[87] - Quote
Blue spy wrote:
I was not aware that divine law factored into the day-to-day operations of the SCC. But while we are on the topic of Amarrian imperialism, what other steps can the cluster make to better accommodate to, and pander to the Amarr?
This is not directed at the SCC. This is directed to the Civic Court, Khanid Transport and the Ammatar Consulate. These are three Imperial/Kingdom agencies operating in sovereign Imperial/Kingdom space. This is a purely internal affair and has no bearing on the wider SCC markets or operations.
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1370
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 23:34:59 -
[88] - Quote
Blue spy wrote:I was not aware that divine law factored into the day-to-day operations of the SCC.
It should factor into all dealings by and with faithful citizens of Amarr, as it has in our economic policies for thousands of years and as was upheld in our previous trading agreements with the other empires.
We are not asking the cluster. We are not asking CONCORD or the SCC to change their policies. We are asking our lords to enforce God's law on our people.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Blue spy
Eclipse Navy
Brave Collective
33
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 23:42:33 -
[89] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Blue spy wrote:I was not aware that divine law factored into the day-to-day operations of the SCC. It should factor into all dealings by and with faithful citizens of Amarr, as it has in our economic policies for thousands of years and as was upheld in our previous trading agreements with the other empires. We are not asking the cluster. We are not asking CONCORD or the SCC to change their policies. We are asking our lords to enforce God's law on our people.
I apologise for reaching my conclusion rather rashly then. Any attempts by the Amarrians to limit their own market activities can count on my wholehearted support. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1370
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 23:48:31 -
[90] - Quote
Thank you, sir.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
|
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Jukko Riis
Black Rise Colonial Exploration
83
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 01:20:56 -
[91] - Quote
Abstained.
Not my place to tell a neighbor what to do in her own house.
Slavery is illegal in Caldari. Break Caldari law, ally or not, you pay.
BRCE: Mission Statement!
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Claudia Osyn
Limited Existance
1092
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 01:21:26 -
[92] - Quote
Merdaneth wrote:
If I wanted to change Imperial and Khanid institutions, I would do it in the form of a petition. Petitions reek of Gallente culture: a culture of self-entitlement.
To be honest, their is no other type of entitlement, any right or privilege you have, you gave to yourself.
The lack of money is the root of all evil.
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
6382
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 06:06:38 -
[93] - Quote
If we can't buy them how else can we free them?
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
352
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 06:24:02 -
[94] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:If we can't buy them how else can we free them?
By making slave-owning economically unsustainable.
- Would very much love to cobble anyone who insinuates that I am a loyalist in the head with a 125mm calibre Fusion round.
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Reginald Sakakibara
Death By Design
Did he say Jump
15
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 07:31:07 -
[95] - Quote
I, Lord Reginald Sakakibara, by the grace of God and as a humble servant of Her Majesty's government, hereby affix my signature to this petition on the 9th of March, YC 117. |
Red Khalmer
Minmatar Secret Service
Ushra'Khan
34
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 11:57:49 -
[96] - Quote
I will never sign such a treaty and I encourage any people supporting the matari to do the same.
This "proposal" is not Because The Amarr are merciful to the slaves, no. Its Their greed to monopolize the Slave market for their own gain. The ignorant PIE speaks such nice words about how they will make it so the Blood cults wont aquire slaves from the market. But we all know that some of the Blood fanatics work with the IC14 and most likely have access to slaves anyway. Either through SCC like now or through the empire. If they would really care about the well being of the slaves they would have been freed a long time ago. But their wicked lies will continue aslong as we dont do anything about it.
Freedom to the Matari people! Death to all slavers and betrayers! |
Shikhee
Black Dog Shady Missionaries
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 12:23:40 -
[97] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:If we can't buy them how else can we free them?
Buying any product ensures that suppliers of that product on the market have reason to continue supplying said product. If you want to end slavery, buying slaves is arguably one of the worst things you could do.
|
Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
Low-Class
558
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 12:49:41 -
[98] - Quote
By creating a space in the open market of the SCC for slave trading, CONCORD sends the message to the cluster that it is the norm, rather then the exception - When in fact it is outlawed in all of the major powers save for one. Slavery is frowned upon by the majority of civilized society, and this should be reflected in the international market.
For these reasons, as well as the humanitarian concerns, I will sign this petition - And say it should go further and ask for CONCORD to abolish recognition of human trafficking entirely. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
4533
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 12:55:18 -
[99] - Quote
Red Khalmer wrote:I will never sign such a treaty and I encourage any people supporting the matari to do the same.
This "proposal" is not Because The Amarr are merciful to the slaves, no. Its Their greed to monopolize the Slave market for their own gain. The ignorant PIE speaks such nice words about how they will make it so the Blood cults wont aquire slaves from the market. But we all know that some of the Blood fanatics work with the IC14 and most likely have access to slaves anyway. Either through SCC like now or through the empire. If they would really care about the well being of the slaves they would have been freed a long time ago. But their wicked lies will continue aslong as we dont do anything about it.
Freedom to the Matari people! Death to all slavers and betrayers!
Out of interest...
You do realise this has nothing to do with slavery, per se? This is to do with the presence of slaves, often an illegal commodity, on the SCC market both within and outside of Amarr. Within the Empire, Holders are going to continue to do what they do and it's highly unlikely that the likes of us will affect them. Separate discussion.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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U'tah Arareb
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 15:03:27 -
[100] - Quote
More to the point it has to do with certain Agencies within the Empire making slaves (by being a source) available to any Tom, Dicktrus, and Harridious. This is in direct contradiction to Amarrian law and places the slaves themselves in peril. This is strictly an internal affair and not meant to alter your market shrine in the least. |
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Aelisha
Achura-Waschi Exchange
Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
478
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 15:18:30 -
[101] - Quote
Signed.
I may not be an Imperial citizen but I can respect their call that the trade be regulated and the market in slaves segregated such that only legitimate holders may trade in them.
If the Kingdom has a problem with the Amarrian defined petition in this thread, I urge them to take their cases to CONCORD. Either way this petition should see the inside of a CONCORD debate chamber, in my opinion.
As for Sansha, Sabik, Serpentis or Angel crocodile tears about their source of easy human bodies to feed into their various interests, I hope you drown in them. I'm sure the SCC is the least effective means of procurement non-signatories have at their disposal and think that any kow-towing to non-signatories on the part of the four empires would set a new low for current political affairs.
A potential compromise is a distinction between Imperial Slaves and Slaves, but then I'd ask why a practice (non-imperial slavery) deemed illegal in all of the signatory states, is being allowed to persist.
CEO of the Achura-Waschi Exchange
Intaki Reborn
Independent Capsuleer
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TomHorn
Horn and Brothers
Ndrangheta.
230
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 17:42:43 -
[102] - Quote
Not signed
This petition is useless , pointless, removing slaves from the market will not stop the trade in slaves. Only turn the trade in slaves underground. Making it less regulated and controlled , worsening of conditions for the slaves themselves.
These kind of actions are typical of the liberal elite fascists.
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1375
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 18:16:56 -
[103] - Quote
TomHorn wrote:Not signed
This petition is useless , pointless, removing slaves from the market will not stop the trade in slaves. Only turn the trade in slaves underground. Making it less regulated and controlled , worsening of conditions for the slaves themselves.
These kind of actions are typical of the liberal elite fascists.
Liberal? This is as conservative a measure as you can get. Of course, one can't expect a Caldari Provist to know anything about Amarr society.
So, here's some information for you:
The slave trade in Amarr has been going on for thousands of years in legal planetside markets, between Holders. These are heavily regulated markets, which have very specific Scripture-defined rules about who can and cannot deal in slaves. These markets are not, and have never needed, the SCC. In case you are not aware, the SCC is not the only market that exists in the cluster. It's just an open capsuleer space market. The slave trade in Amarr does not need the SCC to continue, legally, between our Holders.
During the liberalization and internationalism of our society in the last century, certain elements of our leadership agreed to participate in an extraplanetary CONCORD-created free market known as the SCC. In this unregulated open market, it was possible for people who have no legal right to slaves to acquire them. In this way, it is in fact the SCC that is an illegal market, by Amarrian laws, because it allows unscrupulous elements in Amarr society to bypass the normal regulations and restrictions of our local policies to sell to a wider base of people who have no legal right to own slaves.
This does not turn the trade underground. It returns it to local Amarrian planetside markets, under traditional regulations and policies. That makes it a conservative proposal, not a liberal one. Free market economies, of which the SCC is, is economic liberalism. If you know nothing about politics, don't comment on politics.
It's obvious you haven't read anything that was actually posted, because then you would know that this is not an abolitionist proposal and has no intent on stopping the trade. The intent of this, is to move the trade back to local markets, between certified Holders, under the traditions and regulations that have governed the slave trade in Amarr society for thousands of years.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Ashlar Vellum
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
156
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 19:20:37 -
[104] - Quote
Such petitions should be made by Trade Registry and MIO, not pushed by a bunch of soulless from every corner of New Eden on public venues with pirate loyalists in their midst.
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Eran Mintor
Furtherance.
858
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 20:05:44 -
[105] - Quote
Ashlar Vellum wrote:Such petitions should be made by Trade Registry and MIO, not pushed by a bunch of soulless from every corner of New Eden on public venues with pirate loyalists in their midst.
Until the Trade Registry, MIO, and other Amarr corporations and organizations do that, this is the best you will get and it certainly is better than nothing.
I believe the hope is that with enough voices, this will be carried onto organizations more powerful than the "soulless".
-Eran |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
908
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 20:21:28 -
[106] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:TomHorn wrote:Not signed
This petition is useless , pointless, removing slaves from the market will not stop the trade in slaves. Only turn the trade in slaves underground. Making it less regulated and controlled , worsening of conditions for the slaves themselves.
These kind of actions are typical of the liberal elite fascists. Liberal? This is as conservative a measure as you can get. Some information: The slave trade in Amarr has been going on for thousands of years in legal planetside markets, between Holders. These are heavily regulated markets, which have very specific Scripture-defined rules about who can and cannot deal in slaves. These markets are not, and have never needed, the SCC. During the liberalization and internationalism of our society in the last century, certain elements of our leadership agreed to participate in an extraplanetary CONCORD-created free market known as the SCC. In this unregulated open market, it was possible for people who have no legal right to slaves to acquire them. In this way, it is in fact the SCC that is an illegal market, by Amarrian laws, because it allows unscrupulous elements in Amarr society to bypass the normal regulations and restrictions of our local policies to sell to a wider base of people who have no legal or spiritual right to own slaves. This proposal does not turn the trade underground. It returns it to local Amarrian planetside markets, under traditional regulations and policies. That makes it a conservative proposal, not a liberal one. Free market economies, of which the SCC is, is economic liberalism. Conservatism is preserving traditional values and systems. The divine right of Holders to be the sole legal owners of slaves is a traditional value, and our local planetside slave markets a traditional system. If you had read what was posted, then you would know that this is not an abolitionist proposal and has no intent on stopping the trade. The intent of this, is to move the trade back to local markets, between certified Holders, under the traditions and regulations that have governed the slave trade in Amarr society for thousands of years.
While I agree, it is still true that removing the possibility for shady elements and slavers of the Amarr Empire to go through the SCC for their sales, will inevitably re route them to underground markets.
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Utari Onzo
13.
Enigma Project
166
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 20:21:40 -
[107] - Quote
Ashlar Vellum wrote:Such petitions should be made by Trade Registry and MIO, not pushed by a bunch of soulless from every corner of New Eden on public venues with pirate loyalists in their midst.
I believe Miss Kernher said it best earlier in this thread. This isn't about petitioning CONCORD, this is the faithful pleading to our betters to change the methods certain elements within the Empire that are selling slaves on the open SCC market against the will of God and the Scriptures. The best method I can see to enact change isn't going through the painful bureaucracy of the Trade Registry, it's appealing to the Holders and above them, the Heirs, to put this right.
New York, Paris, Peckham, Jita
13. is recruiting
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Ashlar Vellum
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
156
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 21:01:37 -
[108] - Quote
Eran Mintor wrote:Ashlar Vellum wrote:Such petitions should be made by Trade Registry and MIO, not pushed by a bunch of soulless from every corner of New Eden on public venues with pirate loyalists in their midst.
Until the Trade Registry, MIO, and other Amarr corporations and organizations do that, this is the best you will get and it certainly is better than nothing. I believe the hope is that with enough voices, this will be carried onto organizations more powerful than the "soulless". -Eran
Sorry but no, capsuleers shouldn't have a say in Imperial policies, especially foreigners. If this petishion was directed at the SCC and CONCORD I would be for it, but it's not.
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Utari Onzo
13.
Enigma Project
168
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 21:10:00 -
[109] - Quote
Ashlar Vellum wrote:Eran Mintor wrote:Ashlar Vellum wrote:Such petitions should be made by Trade Registry and MIO, not pushed by a bunch of soulless from every corner of New Eden on public venues with pirate loyalists in their midst.
Until the Trade Registry, MIO, and other Amarr corporations and organizations do that, this is the best you will get and it certainly is better than nothing. I believe the hope is that with enough voices, this will be carried onto organizations more powerful than the "soulless". -Eran Sorry but no, capsuleers shouldn't have a say in Imperial policies, especially foreigners. If this petishion was directed at the SCC and CONCORD I would be for it, but it's not.
This isn't about changing Imperial Policy, the scriptures and Imperial laws are quite clear that only Holders should control the trade of slaves. This is about certain elements of the Empire trading these slaves on the open market to any buyer on the SCC, holder or no. The SCC is not the party to blame as it is by its nature a free market, it is the organisations supplying slaves that are the issue.
New York, Paris, Peckham, Jita
13. is recruiting
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1377
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 21:10:08 -
[110] - Quote
What else can we do, Mr. Vellum?
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Jade Blackwind
Alexylva Paradox
Low-Class
287
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 21:53:14 -
[111] - Quote
Signed!
Oh wait
hehe
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Ashlar Vellum
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
156
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 22:05:54 -
[112] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:What else can we do, Mr. Vellum?
Petition SCC and CONCORD to change their policies for capsuleers in the Empire controlled regions, not the Imperial ones to chage theirs. Amarr Empire has appropriate organizations for solving such matters and it should be handled by them alone without capsuleers meddling in their business.
Also, what you and yours were doing for so long and keep up the hunt.
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Siddhar Gangari
Masuat'aa Matari
Ushra'Khan
13
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 14:46:21 -
[113] - Quote
This petition is without claws. The Ammar will never restrict it's peoples' access to slaves; their frail civilization would slowly avalanche into total collapse. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
4534
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 15:12:23 -
[114] - Quote
Siddhar Gangari wrote:This petition is without claws. The Ammar will never restrict it's peoples' access to slaves; their frail civilization would slowly avalanche into total collapse.
Try developing your reading comprehension. This petition is to cease the sale of slaves on the SCC. It has nothing to do with the Amarr at all - Concord would make the decision and the SCC would enforce it through the simple step.of delisting the commodities in question.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1378
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 15:54:51 -
[115] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Siddhar Gangari wrote:This petition is without claws. The Ammar will never restrict it's peoples' access to slaves; their frail civilization would slowly avalanche into total collapse. Try developing your reading comprehension. This petition is to cease the sale of slaves on the SCC. It has nothing to do with the Amarr at all - Concord would make the decision and the SCC would enforce it through the simple step.of delisting the commodities in question.
No, Pieter, it's not that.
It's to get Amarr authorities to make organizations like the Civic Court and Ammatar Consulate remove their standard sell orders from the SCC, and return to conducting their trade of slaves to local planetside markets only.
To Mr. Gangari: Restricting sale to just Holders was how we did it for thousands of years. We never collapsed then.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Vaako Omaristos
Sentatus Populusque Romanus
10
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 16:35:19 -
[116] - Quote
Signed.
I traded a lot of slaves on the market simply for cannon fodder when boarding enemy ships or the more intelligent ones as repair crews. i have since realised that by hiring true amarrian marines for this purpose my financial losses have decreased dramatically. |
Sarasvazhi
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 16:41:49 -
[117] - Quote
Restricting the human trade to planet side markets would contain an atrocity to the worlds of the filth perpetrating it, further distort the balance between capital and labor in Amarrian financial markets, and deny that Empire's ruling elite access to the ISK currency for one of its most despicable "assets." That sounds too good to be true.
On the other hand, this petition is an opportunity to reaffirm the validity of human trade. Is that the catch? |
Alizebeth Amalath
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
20
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 17:00:10 -
[118] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Siddhar Gangari wrote:This petition is without claws. The Ammar will never restrict it's peoples' access to slaves; their frail civilization would slowly avalanche into total collapse. Try developing your reading comprehension. This petition is to cease the sale of slaves on the SCC. It has nothing to do with the Amarr at all - Concord would make the decision and the SCC would enforce it through the simple step.of delisting the commodities in question. No, Pieter, it's not that. It's to get Amarr authorities to make organizations like the Civic Court and Ammatar Consulate remove their standard sell orders from the SCC, and return to conducting their trade of slaves to local planetside markets only.
Samira is correct. This is in relation to the Greater Amarrian organizations. I personally would not be upset if all slaves were removed from the SCC market, but that is not what this is about. |
Barsam Akhtar
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 18:16:19 -
[119] - Quote
I shall add my signature to this noble cause.
The relationship between Holder and Slave is a holy covenant with God: the slave offers their blood and toil to God's greater glory, and the holder guides the spiritual maturation of the slave as a parent would a child until the slave is ready to take their place among God's own.
The selling of slaves on the open market is an open mockery of that holy covenant and drives us one step farther away from truly reclaiming all the peoples of humanity under God's one true rule. |
Alizebeth Amalath
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
20
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 18:27:46 -
[120] - Quote
Barsam Akhtar wrote:I shall add my signature to this noble cause.
The relationship between Holder and Slave is a holy covenant with God: the slave offers their blood and toil to God's greater glory . . .
Phrasing! |
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
Multicultural F1 Brigade
4549
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 20:06:35 -
[121] - Quote
Alizebeth Amalath wrote:Samira Kernher wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Siddhar Gangari wrote:This petition is without claws. The Ammar will never restrict it's peoples' access to slaves; their frail civilization would slowly avalanche into total collapse. Try developing your reading comprehension. This petition is to cease the sale of slaves on the SCC. It has nothing to do with the Amarr at all - Concord would make the decision and the SCC would enforce it through the simple step.of delisting the commodities in question. No, Pieter, it's not that. It's to get Amarr authorities to make organizations like the Civic Court and Ammatar Consulate remove their standard sell orders from the SCC, and return to conducting their trade of slaves to local planetside markets only. Samira is correct. This is in relation to the Greater Amarrian organizations. I personally would not be upset if all slaves were removed from the SCC market, but that is not what this is about.
Huh. Looks like my reading is faulty, then. I should probably rescind my support, this sounds like a purely internal Amarr matter.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Vulxanis Viceroy
Offworld Trading Company
Ethical Carnage
213
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 00:20:30 -
[122] - Quote
Signed.
Fide et honore.
Curious about Roleplay in EVE? Message me & I'll help you!
(IC note: Vulxanis only responds to "Lord Draconis".)
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The Leopardess
AMARR REGULAR GUERILLAS
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 18:54:53 -
[123] - Quote
If anyone wants to own slaves if this gets any attention from the higher ups (doubtful) they are welcome to join the company I'll set up, granting you permission under my authority to be a slave master. ( i would legally own the slaves but you could "oversee" them as you see fit.) Any Holder would make a lot of money doing this if they did it the right way. Oh and I see the military personnel are now counting themselves as Holders. Nice try, that's earned through providence and bloodlines. What I mean is that it has often been the case that high ranking military and many religious clergy have been allowed to have slaves legally. That doesn't make you mercenaries and boot lickers HOLDERS.
And please, all of this simpering over mere slaves? Do you all have no self respect, Ammarrians? Where is all of the pathetic crying over Sansha's continued reign of terror (vastly overshadowing Naupilus' so-called "crime") or outrage over the continued murder of innocent Ammar Empire citizens at the hands of tribal forces? No, we have to whine on and on about a tiny incident that happened outside the borders of Empire space, to legally purchased slaves. I'm going to guess that the Empress, may God keep her and bless her, is spending hours fretting about the sale of slaves in foreign markets. I'm sure the battle-hardened war-like Caldari are fretting even more than her. Actually no, they're not and I'm sure you're all on some list somewhere now of people who won't have the stomache when the wars escalate and the slave markets explode with product needing homes.
Seems you all have a death wish and hate God's will. |
Vulxanis Viceroy
Offworld Trading Company
Ethical Carnage
214
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 22:09:32 -
[124] - Quote
The Leopardess wrote:If anyone wants to own slaves if this gets any attention from the higher ups (doubtful) they are welcome to join the company I'll set up, granting you permission under my authority to be a slave master. ( i would legally own the slaves but you could "oversee" them as you see fit.) Any Holder would make a lot of money doing this if they did it the right way. Oh and I see the military personnel are now counting themselves as Holders. Nice try, that's earned through providence and bloodlines. What I mean is that it has often been the case that high ranking military and many religious clergy have been allowed to have slaves legally. That doesn't make you mercenaries and boot lickers HOLDERS.
And please, all of this simpering over mere slaves? Do you all have no self respect, Ammarrians? Where is all of the pathetic crying over Sansha's continued reign of terror (vastly overshadowing Naupilus' so-called "crime") or outrage over the continued murder of innocent Ammar Empire citizens at the hands of tribal forces? No, we have to whine on and on about a tiny incident that happened outside the borders of Empire space, to legally purchased slaves. I'm going to guess that the Empress, may God keep her and bless her, is spending hours fretting about the sale of slaves in foreign markets. I'm sure the battle-hardened war-like Caldari are fretting even more than her. Actually no, they're not and I'm sure you're all on some list somewhere now of people who won't have the stomache when the wars escalate and the slave markets explode with product needing homes.
Seems you all have a death wish and hate God's will.
Or you perhaps misunderstand that it is the holder's responsibility to care for their slaves spiritually as well as, actually more importantly, than physically. And the carrot is always more effective than the stick in the long run. Treat people as people, and they will yearn to know he whom you serve. For holders are servants of God, not simply those who own the bodies of others. We are merely the stewards He has entrusted with much to, and treating slaves as if they were beasts makes you no better than a heretic. I would go as to consider you a heretic, by your language and lack of sympathy towards the lives Nauplius has destroyed. But of course, that was merely ignorance on your part, and you will recognize your error. That is, if you are truly worthy of being called holder.
I would suggest choosing more wisely before insulting the faithful for being such, as well as belittling the deeds of heretics to mere trifles. Then you may be worthy of respect.
Fide et honore.
Curious about Roleplay in EVE? Message me & I'll help you!
(IC note: Vulxanis only responds to "Lord Draconis".)
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Antera Deninard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 22:59:07 -
[125] - Quote
Say all you want but business will continue as usual.. only thing you will achieve will be rise of demand on those dirty slaves.. |
The Leopardess
AMARR REGULAR GUERILLAS
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 23:50:47 -
[126] - Quote
Oh REALLY? You're going to pull the HERETIC card? I love how everyone and their dog loving grandmother seems to have the authority to dictate what IS and what is not HERESY these days! It's as if the Theology Council wasn't necessary anymore, given that they have all of these EAGER VOLUNTEERS!
The Empress herself has ordered the destruction of who knows how many slaves (I know because I have relatives in The Order of St. Tetrimon who carried out the attack on Kor-Azor's slaves). Are you now suggesting that our blessed Empress is a HERETIC? Like I said LISTS. YOU. ON ONE.
Defense of Empire is far more important and crucial than the re-education of slaves, no matter what Gallentean infiltrators would have anyone believe. It is right to dispense of a 1,000 Reclaimed slaves if it will save but one innocent Amarrian, even the lowest of them.
We are at war with the Minmatar Republic and until their aggression ceases, I will view even the most tyrannical slave owner's actions as far less important a crime than the abduction and killing of already-God-fearing CITIZENS.
Placing the safety of a slave above the safety of the Empire is EVIL, EVIL, EVIL. Sacrificing yourself for the safety and security of a non-believer slave is worse than anything, you are betraying God's edict to rule, conquer and wreak vengeance. And most slaves are nonbelievers, or you've never worked with the hateful little primitives. |
Kale Silence
Sebietar Scavenging and Hacking
81
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 00:25:02 -
[127] - Quote
The Leopardess wrote:Oh REALLY? You're going to pull the HERETIC card? I love how everyone and their dog loving grandmother seems to have the authority to dictate what IS and what is not HERESY these days! It's as if the Theology Council wasn't necessary anymore, given that they have all of these EAGER VOLUNTEERS!
The Empress herself has ordered the destruction of who knows how many slaves (I know because I have relatives in The Order of St. Tetrimon who carried out the attack on Kor-Azor's slaves). Are you now suggesting that our blessed Empress is a HERETIC? Like I said LISTS. YOU. ON ONE.
Defense of Empire is far more important and crucial than the re-education of slaves, no matter what Gallentean infiltrators would have anyone believe. It is right to dispense of a 1,000 Reclaimed slaves if it will save but one innocent Amarrian, even the lowest of them.
We are at war with the Minmatar Republic and until their aggression ceases, I will view even the most tyrannical slave owner's actions as far less important a crime than the abduction and killing of already-God-fearing CITIZENS.
Placing the safety of a slave above the safety of the Empire is EVIL, EVIL, EVIL. Sacrificing yourself for the safety and security of a non-believer slave is worse than anything, you are betraying God's edict to rule, conquer and wreak vengeance on the unholy infidels who turned their backs on their Lord and Master. And you should know that most slaves are stubborn nonbelievers, or you've never worked with the hateful little primitives.
Wow... you're a right piece o' work aren'tchya?
Hey Nappy! I think you've got a girlfriend lined up here!
*munches popcorn*
"Love me or hate me, but money don't judge me. I don't care about your opinion, unless you intend to pay me. Then I care."
- Anonymous
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Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 00:31:49 -
[128] - Quote
Abstain.
We do slavery different here in Khanid.
Dark Amarr: Interlude
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1390
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 03:00:15 -
[129] - Quote
The Leopardess wrote:Oh REALLY? You're going to pull the HERETIC card? I love how everyone and their dog loving grandmother seems to have the authority to dictate what IS and what is not HERESY these days! It's as if the Theology Council wasn't necessary anymore, given that they have all of these EAGER VOLUNTEERS!
The Empress herself has ordered the destruction of who knows how many slaves (I know because I have relatives in The Order of St. Tetrimon who carried out the attack on Kor-Azor's slaves). Are you now suggesting that our blessed Empress is a HERETIC? Like I said LISTS. YOU. ON ONE.
Defense of Empire is far more important and crucial than the re-education of slaves, no matter what Gallentean infiltrators would have anyone believe. It is right to dispense of a 1,000 Reclaimed slaves if it will save but one innocent Amarrian, even the lowest of them.
We are at war with the Minmatar Republic and until their aggression ceases, I will view even the most tyrannical slave owner's actions as far less important a crime than the abduction and killing of already-God-fearing CITIZENS.
Placing the safety of a slave above the safety of the Empire is EVIL, EVIL, EVIL. Sacrificing yourself for the safety and security of a non-believer slave is worse than anything, you are betraying God's edict to rule, conquer and wreak vengeance on the unholy infidels who turned their backs on their Lord and Master. And you should know that most slaves are stubborn nonbelievers, or you've never worked with the hateful little primitives.
The threats to the Empire are many, your ladyship. We must combat all of them, not just one. And this issue has more to do than just the lives of the slaves. It is about upholding our traditions, traditions that have been eroding greatly over the last century. It is about our divine mandate from God. It is about the fact that the sin of greed has caused certain elements in our society to break Scriptural law regarding the rightful ownership of slaves in order to sell to those who are impure. It is a crime against Amarr and against God, and we must combat this threat as surely as we combat threats of the outside.
The great Amarr Empire was founded to cultivate the spirit of man.
To do so the enemies of the outside had to be defeated and the enemies of the inside controlled.
-Book I 1:14
We do not do service to Amarr or God when we ignore one threat to fight another. All enemies of the Empire must be defeated, both those without and those within.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Bel Boma
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
19
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 03:54:14 -
[130] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:The threats to the Empire are many, your ladyship. We must combat all of them, not just one. And this issue has more to do than just the lives of the slaves. It is about upholding our traditions, traditions that have been eroding greatly over the last century. It is about our divine mandate from God. It is about the fact that the sin of greed has caused certain elements in our society to break Scriptural law regarding the rightful ownership of slaves in order to sell to those who are impure. It is a crime against Amarr and against God, and we must combat this threat as surely as we combat threats of the outside.
The great Amarr Empire was founded to cultivate the spirit of man.
To do so the enemies of the outside had to be defeated and the enemies of the inside controlled.
-Book I 1:14
We do not do service to Amarr or God when we ignore one threat to fight another. All enemies of the Empire must be defeated, both those without and those within.
It never ceases to impress me how respectfully poetic you can be about the Faith, even if you're arguing a point. |
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Tyrel Toov
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
220
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 07:19:12 -
[131] - Quote
How about taking slaves off all markets? Let go the ones that want to leave, keep the ones that want to stay, and keep your filthy religion away from the rest of us. We want nothing to do with it.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
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Astera Zandraki
Aideron Robotics
86
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 11:51:08 -
[132] - Quote
Taking slaves off any and all markets would be better. The idea that it's alright to treat people as chattel is really ****** up. |
The Leopardess
AMARR REGULAR GUERILLAS
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 18:46:46 -
[133] - Quote
Astera Zandraki wrote:Taking slaves off any and all markets would be better. The idea that it's alright to treat people as chattel is really ****** up.
Ha! As opposed to just murdering people like you do? Hypocritical little snot! You ARE God's slave and he will reclaim you inevitably, even if there were no Amarr you would still have to face Retribution and Reclamation.
Miss Kernher, please just call me Sayuri. I get what you are saying, but don't you see that is exactly my point? All Amarrian capsuleers seem to like to do these days is fret about paltry issues, or this one politically charged issue, while the big issues that actually threaten Empire space or our values go completely ignored.
One maniac killing Minmatar slaves is not a threat to the Empire. The Gallente and Minmatar empires both hate us already - there is no repair or redemption of friendship there waiting to be had. They will annihilate us completely if they had the chance.
As long as the faithful stand strong in God's light and God's will, we'll never fail. Placing slaves above the worth of Amarrians is the beginning of an end to the covenant we share with our Lord, our promise to engage in Holy War and wreak his Vengeance on those unfaithful to their Lord, Father and Master.
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1394
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Posted - 2015.03.20 19:27:26 -
[134] - Quote
The Leopardess wrote:Miss Kernher, please just call me Sayuri. I get what you are saying, but don't you see that is exactly my point? All Amarrian capsuleers seem to like to do these days is fret about paltry issues, or this one politically charged issue, while the big issues that actually threaten Empire space or our values go completely ignored.
Ignored? We have not ignored the threats. I have fought heretics, Matari forces, and other threats against the Empire, and my alliance has been doing so for over ten years, recognized for our efforts by His Royal Highness the Heir Ardishapur, Grand Admiral Sundarra, Grand Inquisitor Omel, and others. We have most certainly not been ignoring these issues.
The fact that this thread exists is because we are choosing to not ignore this one. Not all threats are as obvious as bullets, ma'am. Many are far more insidious. Open markets forced on us by foreign interests that bypass our religious obligations and regulations are such a threat.
Quote:One maniac killing Minmatar slaves is not a threat to the Empire. The Gallente and Minmatar empires both hate us already - there is no repair or redemption of friendship there waiting to be had. They will annihilate us completely if they had the chance.
This measure has nothing to do with the Gallente and Minmatar nations. Their opinions are irrelevent.
What this is about is protecting our traditions and upholding God's commands as given to us in Scripture. Only Holders have divine right to own slaves. The sale to anyone that is not a Holder is a crime against God. Allowing Scriptural law to be violated, allowing crimes against God to go unpunished, that is a threat.
Quote:As long as the faithful stand strong in God's light and God's will, we'll never fail. Placing slaves above the worth of Amarrians is the beginning of an end to the covenant we share with our Lord, our promise to engage in Holy War and wreak his Vengeance on those unfaithful to their Lord, Father and Master.
With respect, you are widely misreading this if you believe that it is about 'placing slaves above the worth of Amarr'.
The ones who are placing the impure above Amarr are those elements in our society who view the divine rights of Holders as immaterial. The ones who are placing the impure above Amarr are those who believe that God's mandate that the worlds of the Heavens are for the Amarr does not have to be followed. The ones who are placing the impure above Amarr are those elements who feel it appropriate to sell slaves to commoners and godless foreigners.
The sale of slaves to foreigners goes against the Reclaiming. It is an Unclaiming. It is an Abandonment of religious responsibilities and divine rights.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Astera Zandraki
Aideron Robotics
90
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 11:32:52 -
[135] - Quote
The Leopardess wrote:Astera Zandraki wrote:Taking slaves off any and all markets would be better. The idea that it's alright to treat people as chattel is really ****** up. Ha! As opposed to just murdering people like you do? Hypocritical little snot! You ARE God's slave and he will reclaim you inevitably, even if there were no Amarr you would still have to face Retribution and Reclamation.
You call me a murderer? Yea, I guess you're right, I've fought and killed people, I of course regret having to do such a thing but it is a necessary evil. In as much as you have the conviction and my Cousin Samira has the conviction to fight for what you believe in, I must defend freedom.
I must defend the right to worship as you desire, the right to think and speak as you desire, the right to love as you desire the right to choose your own government and to hold that government to account should it be found wanting. The Federation holds at it's core the most noble of ideas: to end suffering, real, actual suffering, can you say the same? |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
911
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 12:14:00 -
[136] - Quote
That idea does not seem really effective... |
Astera Zandraki
Aideron Robotics
90
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 12:59:00 -
[137] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:That idea does not seem really effective...
We're never going to succeed, the nobility is in trying. Additionally, the Federation is a dynamic economic and cultural powerhouse, we're doing just great! |
Ashlar Vellum
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
165
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 13:01:22 -
[138] - Quote
Astera Zandraki wrote: The Federation holds at it's core the most noble of ideas: to end suffering, real, actual suffering, can you say the same?
Even sansha supporters can say the same. |
Astera Zandraki
Aideron Robotics
90
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 13:56:09 -
[139] - Quote
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Even sansha supporters can say the same.
Even Blood Raiders claim a monopoly on God. |
Utari Onzo
13.
Enigma Project
171
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 14:07:18 -
[140] - Quote
The Federation proudly, and loudly proclaims it wishes to protect freedom, yet it still holds the Caldari home planet under occupation. I guess those core values only go so far.
New York, Paris, Peckham, Jita
13. is recruiting
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Astera Zandraki
Aideron Robotics
90
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 14:18:18 -
[141] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:The Federation proudly, and loudly proclaims it wishes to protect freedom, yet it still holds the Caldari home planet under occupation. I guess those core values only go so far.
Where were the parades of victory when the Caldari Navy 'liberated' Caldari Prime? Where we're the throngs of happy children and civilians giving soldiers flowers? There was none of that, because the actual inhabitants of Caldari Prime were, on the whole, doing fine, until war was thrust on them.
Now, here's the thing about the Federation: we **** up, every nation does. The bombardment of Caldari prime in the old war was a vile crime and, in my opinion, if it would bring peace I'd be happy to give Caldari Prime to the State. Now, Roden might disagree with me, but I can still dissent from his view without fear for my life, job or freedom. |
Ashlar Vellum
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
165
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 14:43:50 -
[142] - Quote
Astera Zandraki wrote:Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Even sansha supporters can say the same.
Even Blood Raiders claim a monopoly on God.
Judging by your response you aren't buying what you are trying to sell, so why spew all this "noble of ideas" nonsense. |
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Jovian Labs
Jovian Enterprises
17995
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 15:23:44 -
[143] - Quote
Hm.
Signed. I don't consider myself a very pious man, but all of us are connected in my mind; trading a human being for ISK is not something that should be condoned by the SCC.
"A City made of Dreams...is built in heaven" - GÖâ-
GPƒ U-Ç+¬ß¦ç-ƒ's Sߦ¢ß¦Å-Ç-Å
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Lyn Farel
Kitzless
911
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 15:35:29 -
[144] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:The Federation proudly, and loudly proclaims it wishes to protect freedom, yet it still holds the Caldari home planet under occupation. I guess those core values only go so far.
The planet is currently under a joint collaboration between the Federation and the Ishukone corporation. |
Utari Onzo
13.
Enigma Project
172
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 15:43:20 -
[145] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:Utari Onzo wrote:The Federation proudly, and loudly proclaims it wishes to protect freedom, yet it still holds the Caldari home planet under occupation. I guess those core values only go so far. The planet is currently under a joint collaboration between the Federation and the Ishukone corporation.
While still under the sovereignity of the Federation. That's still occupation.
New York, Paris, Peckham, Jita
13. is recruiting
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Astera Zandraki
Aideron Robotics
90
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 15:52:16 -
[146] - Quote
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Judging by your response you aren't buying what you are trying to sell, so why spew all this "noble of ideas" nonsense.
Just because I don't think an end to all pointless suffering is possible, doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for it? It is very much like perfection, not possible; but that shouldn't stop you. |
Astera Zandraki
Aideron Robotics
90
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 15:53:55 -
[147] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:Lyn Farel wrote:Utari Onzo wrote:The Federation proudly, and loudly proclaims it wishes to protect freedom, yet it still holds the Caldari home planet under occupation. I guess those core values only go so far. The planet is currently under a joint collaboration between the Federation and the Ishukone corporation. While still under the sovereignity of the Federation. That's still occupation.
Why don't you ask the people who live there to pass judgement in that?
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Utari Onzo
13.
Enigma Project
172
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 15:56:47 -
[148] - Quote
Astera Zandraki wrote:
Why don't you ask the people who live there to pass judgement in that?
You mean the Gallentean colonists who've been flowing on to Caldari Prime over the last couple of centuries? Yes, because I will certainatly get an unbiased opinion from them.
New York, Paris, Peckham, Jita
13. is recruiting
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Lyn Farel
Kitzless
912
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 17:33:10 -
[149] - Quote
Or all the pre corporate Caldari, heirs of the Raata Empire ? I wonder if their opinion is so straight forward that people would like to assume it is...
Either way... said colonists were already well established when the war broke out. This predates Duvaller and Hueromont, when the Caldari were yet another federal state among many in Luminaire. Caldari Prime pretty much ceased to be de facto Caldari when they were uplifted by the Federation, the same way it went that way for the Mannar or the Intaki.
People can send calls to segregation like under Duvaller, or other agitated eras, and wish for a clear separation of cultures and wish for a return to old nation states, but that will necessarily imply mass exoduses and fights for places shared by many, original settlers or locals, or not. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
Multicultural F1 Brigade
4555
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 19:41:25 -
[150] - Quote
Astera Zandraki wrote:
Why don't you ask the people who live there to pass judgement in that?
Hang on, just let me ethnically cleanse whole districts and ship in freighter loads of good Forge district families and THEN we'll take that vote.
You know. Like the Federation did.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Astera Zandraki
Aideron Robotics
92
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 22:15:43 -
[151] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Astera Zandraki wrote:
Why don't you ask the people who live there to pass judgement in that?
Hang on, just let me ethnically cleanse whole districts and ship in freighter loads of good Forge district families and THEN we'll take that vote. You know. Like the Federation did.
It's been centuries since that mistake, and that's exactly what the Caldari/Gallente war was, a mistake. If you want your real enemy, Pieter you should look as you always have, to your 'ally' |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
912
|
Posted - 2015.03.22 09:35:20 -
[152] - Quote
That point is irrelevant. A gallente minority already existed prior to the war. |
The Golden Serpent
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
21
|
Posted - 2015.03.22 16:34:00 -
[153] - Quote
Suffering is God's Vengeance there is no end to suffering until humanity stops straying from his side (infidels). The wretched and the weak are that way because they have offended the almighty. Suffering will end when God decides it in all cases. A peaceful world and universe will be one in which all of its citizens are worshipping God constantly and living for his Will in his Light. |
Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
499
|
Posted - 2015.03.25 09:36:39 -
[154] - Quote
Signed.
Instead of any Sabik lunatic with half an isk in his or her pocket, let us professionals take care of the slave trade.
For those thinking this is a step towards abolishment of slavery, your naivete is as amusing as it is shallow; as long as there's the demand, there's going to be a supply.
Deitra Vess wrote:
So you'd buy your slaves off of a group with a notably large Matari Population? Even down to having a bastardized version of the Matari tattooing rituals? Wow.....
Bastardized? Rather offensive, ms. Vess, both on account of our culture and our professionalism. I'd advise you do check your facts and inform yourself before believing everything the Scope is feeding you.
- Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim
Angels are never far...
Stillwater Corporation Recruitment Open - Angel Cartel Bloc
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Dailar Toralen
Toralen Industries
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.25 13:16:29 -
[155] - Quote
Not signed. This is outrageous!
Us Capsuleers are immortals. We are not common-folk, not in the least bit. We rule Empires of our own making. It takes them thousands of years to form Empires, it takes us months. Also, consider that there are many Capsuleers who fight for the Empire who make a living off of the Slave Trade, and also threw Slave Labor among our ships. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1409
|
Posted - 2015.03.25 13:54:53 -
[156] - Quote
Dailar Toralen wrote:Also, consider that there are many Capsuleers who fight for the Empire who make a living off of the Slave Trade, and also threw Slave Labor among our ships.
If those capsuleers are not Holders, then they have no right to own slaves. And if they are Holders, then they can trade or purchase slaves directly between themselves or at traditional planetside slave markets as they have been doing for thousands of years.
Amarr has not needed, and does not need, foreign-controlled markets like the SCC involved in our slave trade.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Dailar Toralen
Toralen Industries
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.25 13:59:18 -
[157] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Dailar Toralen wrote:Also, consider that there are many Capsuleers who fight for the Empire who make a living off of the Slave Trade, and also threw Slave Labor among our ships. If those capsuleers are not Holders, then they have no right to own slaves. And if they are Holders, then they can trade or purchase slaves directly between themselves or at planetside slave markets. Amarr has not needed, and does not need, foreign-controlled markets like the SCC involved in our slave trade.
I never spoke of the SCC, but I did speak of the Slave Trade. We do have right to hold slaves. We are primary suppliers of slaves due to our pillaging and raiding (for some of us). |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1409
|
Posted - 2015.03.25 14:27:14 -
[158] - Quote
Dailar Toralen wrote:Samira Kernher wrote:Dailar Toralen wrote:Also, consider that there are many Capsuleers who fight for the Empire who make a living off of the Slave Trade, and also threw Slave Labor among our ships. If those capsuleers are not Holders, then they have no right to own slaves. And if they are Holders, then they can trade or purchase slaves directly between themselves or at planetside slave markets. Amarr has not needed, and does not need, foreign-controlled markets like the SCC involved in our slave trade. I never spoke of the SCC, but I did speak of the Slave Trade. We do have right to hold slaves. We are primary suppliers of slaves due to our pillaging and raiding (for some of us).
This petition is explicitly about the SCC.
And no, you do not have any right. The military has the right to enslave prisoners of war, not the militia. The militia are independent hired combatants. You do not suddenly have any power in Amarr just because you signed a contract to kill people for pay.
Even if the militia did have the right to enslave, the right to enslave is much different from the right to own. Scriptural law is very clear on this: Only Holders may own slaves, period.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Dailar Toralen
Toralen Industries
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.25 14:32:32 -
[159] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Dailar Toralen wrote:Samira Kernher wrote:Dailar Toralen wrote:Also, consider that there are many Capsuleers who fight for the Empire who make a living off of the Slave Trade, and also threw Slave Labor among our ships. If those capsuleers are not Holders, then they have no right to own slaves. And if they are Holders, then they can trade or purchase slaves directly between themselves or at planetside slave markets. Amarr has not needed, and does not need, foreign-controlled markets like the SCC involved in our slave trade. I never spoke of the SCC, but I did speak of the Slave Trade. We do have right to hold slaves. We are primary suppliers of slaves due to our pillaging and raiding (for some of us). This petition is explicitly about the SCC. And no, you do not have any right. The military has the right to enslave prisoners of war, not the militia. The militia are independent hired combatants. You do not suddenly have any power in Amarr just because you signed a contract to kill people for pay. Even if the militia did have the right to enslave, the right to enslave is much different from the right to own. Scriptural law is very clear on this: Only Holders may own slaves, period.
Are you Amarr always going to stand behind your religion as a shield for everything thing you do? Threw joining the Militia Toralen Industries has technically become a part of the Amarrian Empire, along with the rest of the militia. We are not paid in ISK, but in rewards for our loyalty. May I remind you that the Militia is known as the 24th Imperial Crusade, a recognized and large part of the Ministry of War?
We are Toralen Industries. It doesn't matter if you fight for money, idealogies, or because it's what you are good at and it doesn't matter if you fight threw trade, combat, or diplomacy. No matter what or how you fight, there's a place for you.
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Nomistrav
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
289
|
Posted - 2015.03.25 14:41:14 -
[160] - Quote
I abstain from commitment toward either decision - choosing to waive that right entirely - as to not become involved in matters of other cultures; that I may feel free to ask them not to become involved in matters of mine.
Third Place Winner
Pod and Planet Fiction Contest YC114
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Astrial Stargazer
Stillwater Corporation
That Escalated Quickly.
8
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Posted - 2015.03.25 14:42:27 -
[161] - Quote
Signed.
I have signed this petition in the hope that it might get some lazy or sloth like politician off of its rump and do their job. I was born a slave and through the kindness of others I was blessed to released from that former life. Even though I am a proud member of the Angel Cartel I do not condone illegal slave trade in any form. I have on numerous occasions freed slaves when it was possible. Maybe I am the exception and not the norm in this life, but I will continue to do so when I can. But slavery will never go away no matter how hard someone tries to denounce it, best we can hope for is that it be regulated and overseen by proper authorities and not just put in a dark corner and forgotten. |
Dailar Toralen
Toralen Industries
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.25 14:47:45 -
[162] - Quote
Astrial Stargazer wrote:Signed.
I have signed this petition in the hope that it might get some lazy or sloth like politician off of its rump and do their job. I was born a slave and through the kindness of others I was blessed to released from that former life. Even though I am a proud member of the Angel Cartel I do not condone illegal slave trade in any form. I have on numerous occasions freed slaves when it was possible. Maybe I am the exception and not the norm in this life, but I will continue to do so when I can. But slavery will never go away no matter how hard someone tries to denounce it, best we can hope for is that it be regulated and overseen by proper authorities and not just put in a dark corner and forgotten.
Ah. You should probally tell your Alliance that they cannot claim systems owned by the Amarr Empire such as the Saikamon System.
We are Toralen Industries. It doesn't matter if you fight for money, idealogies, or because it's what you are good at and it doesn't matter if you fight threw trade, combat, or diplomacy. No matter what or how you fight, there's a place for you.
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Dailar Toralen
Toralen Industries
0
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Posted - 2015.03.25 14:48:34 -
[163] - Quote
Nomistrav wrote:I abstain from commitment toward either decision - choosing to waive that right entirely - as to not become involved in matters of other cultures; that I may feel free to ask them not to become involved in matters of mine.
Good choice.
We are Toralen Industries. It doesn't matter if you fight for money, idealogies, or because it's what you are good at and it doesn't matter if you fight threw trade, combat, or diplomacy. No matter what or how you fight, there's a place for you.
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Foley Aberas Jones
Huogikku Corporation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
211
|
Posted - 2015.03.25 15:07:44 -
[164] - Quote
Dailar Toralen wrote:Samira Kernher wrote:Dailar Toralen wrote:Also, consider that there are many Capsuleers who fight for the Empire who make a living off of the Slave Trade, and also threw Slave Labor among our ships. If those capsuleers are not Holders, then they have no right to own slaves. And if they are Holders, then they can trade or purchase slaves directly between themselves or at planetside slave markets. Amarr has not needed, and does not need, foreign-controlled markets like the SCC involved in our slave trade. I never spoke of the SCC, but I did speak of the Slave Trade. We do have right to hold slaves. We are primary suppliers of slaves due to our pillaging and raiding (for some of us).
Didn't you JUST make a ******* thread about how the Intaki should be liberated? |
Dailar Toralen
Toralen Industries
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.25 15:10:18 -
[165] - Quote
Foley Aberas Jones wrote:Dailar Toralen wrote:Samira Kernher wrote:Dailar Toralen wrote:Also, consider that there are many Capsuleers who fight for the Empire who make a living off of the Slave Trade, and also threw Slave Labor among our ships. If those capsuleers are not Holders, then they have no right to own slaves. And if they are Holders, then they can trade or purchase slaves directly between themselves or at planetside slave markets. Amarr has not needed, and does not need, foreign-controlled markets like the SCC involved in our slave trade. I never spoke of the SCC, but I did speak of the Slave Trade. We do have right to hold slaves. We are primary suppliers of slaves due to our pillaging and raiding (for some of us). Didn't you JUST make a ******* thread about how the Intaki should be liberated?
I was wondering when someone was going to catch that. The Intaki are advanced, they will prosper if they are free, make peace, alliances, benefit the galaxy. The Minmatars are primitive creatures, when they were freed all they did was curse this Galaxy to war.
We are Toralen Industries. It doesn't matter if you fight for money, idealogies, or because it's what you are good at and it doesn't matter if you fight threw trade, combat, or diplomacy. No matter what or how you fight, there's a place for you.
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Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
499
|
Posted - 2015.03.25 15:11:24 -
[166] - Quote
Dailar Toralen wrote:
Ah. You should probally tell your Alliance that they cannot claim systems owned by the Amarr Empire such as the Saikamon System.
Oh come on now. Aren't we great neighbours, hm? Feel free to stop by for tea and mindflood, in any case.
- Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim
Angels are never far...
Stillwater Corporation Recruitment Open - Angel Cartel Bloc
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1409
|
Posted - 2015.03.25 15:14:27 -
[167] - Quote
Dailar Toralen wrote: Are you Amarr always going to stand behind your religion as a shield for everything thing you do?
Scriptural law is the only law that matters. If you are not serving God then you are not serving Amarr, regardless of your declared loyalties.
Quote:Threw joining the Militia Toralen Industries has technically become a part of the Amarrian Empire, along with the rest of the militia. We are not paid in ISK, but in rewards for our loyalty. May I remind you that the Militia is known as the 24th Imperial Crusade, a recognized and large part of the Ministry of War?
Your corporation is a privateer organization, granted bounties for combat action against enemies of the Empire by the 24th Imperial Crusade. The fact that the bounty comes in the form of assets instead of isk is irrelevent. We are all independent paramilitary contracters. You are not a member of the Amarr Navy, you are not a professional military officer. If you were a professional military officer, you would be held to exacting restrictions and regulations and would not be permitted to join or leave on a whim. You would only be provided equipment as needed to do your duty, not given it as prize money.
Considering how many blood raiders and godless foreigners have infested the 24IC to exploit it for their own benefit, Amarr would be much better off without the militia. The Amarr Navy should be the ones prosecuting the war.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Dailar Toralen
Toralen Industries
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.25 15:18:45 -
[168] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Dailar Toralen wrote: Are you Amarr always going to stand behind your religion as a shield for everything thing you do? Scriptural law is the only law that matters. If you are not serving God then you are not serving Amarr, regardless of your declared loyalties. Quote:Threw joining the Militia Toralen Industries has technically become a part of the Amarrian Empire, along with the rest of the militia. We are not paid in ISK, but in rewards for our loyalty. May I remind you that the Militia is known as the 24th Imperial Crusade, a recognized and large part of the Ministry of War? Your corporation is a privateer organization, granted bounties for combat action against enemies of the Empire by the 24th Imperial Crusade. The fact that the bounty comes in the form of assets instead of isk is irrelevent. We are all independent paramilitary contracters. You are not a member of the Amarr Navy, you are not a professional military officer. If you were a professional military officer, you would be held to exacting restrictions and regulations and would not be permitted to join or leave on a whim. You would only be provided equipment as needed to do your duty, not given it as prize money. Considering how many blood raiders and godless foreigners have infested the 24IC to exploit it for their own benefit, Amarr would be much better off without the militia. The Amarr Navy should be the ones prosecuting the war.
And where would your Empire be without us, hm? You would have lost the war already, and destroyed without the State.
We are Toralen Industries. It doesn't matter if you fight for money, idealogies, or because it's what you are good at and it doesn't matter if you fight threw trade, combat, or diplomacy. No matter what or how you fight, there's a place for you.
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Kithrus
Tzedakah
Aegis Militia
348
|
Posted - 2015.03.25 15:24:27 -
[169] - Quote
Quote:
And where would your Empire be without us, hm? You would have lost the war already, and destroyed without the State.
That's true for the Khanid Kingdom not the empire itself. You have been allied to the Empire via proxy.
However as a Khanid holder thank you for your continued support! |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1409
|
Posted - 2015.03.25 15:56:02 -
[170] - Quote
Dailar Toralen wrote: And where would your Empire be without us, hm? You would have lost the war already, and destroyed without the State.
It is better to lose with grace than to win without. God will look upon those whose victory was carried by the lies of the Deceiver, and He will find them wanting.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Tiberious Thessalonia
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
Multicultural F1 Brigade
2286
|
Posted - 2015.03.25 16:29:14 -
[171] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:
Considering how many blood raiders and godless foreigners have infested the 24IC to exploit it for their own benefit, Amarr would be much better off without the militia. The Amarr Navy should be the ones prosecuting the war.
I know, it's awful isn't it?
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Tyrel Toov
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
228
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Posted - 2015.03.25 16:35:49 -
[172] - Quote
Dailar Toralen wrote: The Minmatars are primitive creatures, when they were freed all they did was curse this Galaxy to war.
For some reason, I seem to hate you now....
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
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Foley Aberas Jones
Huogikku Corporation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
211
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Posted - 2015.03.25 16:40:04 -
[173] - Quote
Tyrel Toov wrote:Dailar Toralen wrote: The Minmatars are primitive creatures, when they were freed all they did was curse this Galaxy to war. For some reason, I seem to hate you now....
The guy has the shittest ideals that make no sense...how could you not dislike him? |
Tyrel Toov
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
228
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Posted - 2015.03.25 16:52:54 -
[174] - Quote
Foley Aberas Jones wrote:Tyrel Toov wrote:Dailar Toralen wrote: The Minmatars are primitive creatures, when they were freed all they did was curse this Galaxy to war. For some reason, I seem to hate you now.... The guy has the shittest ideals that make no sense...how could you not dislike him?
To be honest, if that were my only criteria for liking people, I'd hate just about everyone. He woulda' had a shot at redemption, but the unnecessary, Diana Kim - like statement killed it.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
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Dailar Toralen
Toralen Industries
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.25 17:01:47 -
[175] - Quote
Foley Aberas Jones wrote:Tyrel Toov wrote:Dailar Toralen wrote: The Minmatars are primitive creatures, when they were freed all they did was curse this Galaxy to war. For some reason, I seem to hate you now.... The guy has the shittest ideals that make no sense...how could you not dislike him?
I just have ideas that people tend not to say because they don't wanna be shot down by people like you and joecuster.
We are Toralen Industries. It doesn't matter if you fight for money, idealogies, or because it's what you are good at and it doesn't matter if you fight threw trade, combat, or diplomacy. No matter what or how you fight, there's a place for you.
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Lyn Farel
Kitzless
912
|
Posted - 2015.03.25 20:21:32 -
[176] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Dailar Toralen wrote: And where would your Empire be without us, hm? You would have lost the war already, and destroyed without the State. It is better to lose with grace than to win without. God will look upon those whose victory was carried by the lies of the Deceiver, and He will find them wanting.
I am pretty sure that all the citizens of Devoid and the Bleak Lands will agree with that assessment, once conquered by the TLF, backed by freelancers. |
Esna Pitoojee
Offworld Trading Company
Ethical Carnage
491
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 03:06:37 -
[177] - Quote
Absolutely signed. The current system is both detrimental to the upholding of Imperial law and encourages the trade of illegal slaves; I think this is a rare case in which all four of the empires can absolutely agree something should be done. |
Astera Zandraki
Aideron Robotics
93
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 03:36:02 -
[178] - Quote
Esna Pitoojee wrote:Absolutely signed. The current system is both detrimental to the upholding of Imperial law and encourages the trade of illegal slaves; I think this is a rare case in which all four of the empires can absolutely agree something should be done.
Hey look, a holder I can have a shred of respect for! |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
Multicultural F1 Brigade
4566
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 03:40:14 -
[179] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Dailar Toralen wrote: And where would your Empire be without us, hm? You would have lost the war already, and destroyed without the State. It is better to lose with grace than to win without. God will look upon those whose victory was carried by the lies of the Deceiver, and He will find them wanting.
It is always better to win. And many of your people agree with me - from the MIO to the Imperial Family the godless heathens and worse that you have been so vocal in opposition to are now celebrated as decorated Imperial war heroes.
I find it particularly interesting that the 24th Imperial Crusade has decided that my service and that of my thrice-notorious kirjuun is equally pleasing in the eyes of the Empress. Whilst your officers can't get through a simple dinner without spitting on their allies and won't even let you fly in the same organisation as their august selves, the Crusade deems us fit to fly in the same militia, occupy the same ranks and even awarded us the same medal as pure-blooded Amarrians.
Does that sting a little?
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Ashlar Vellum
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
167
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Posted - 2015.03.26 13:30:10 -
[180] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Samira Kernher wrote:Dailar Toralen wrote: And where would your Empire be without us, hm? You would have lost the war already, and destroyed without the State. It is better to lose with grace than to win without. God will look upon those whose victory was carried by the lies of the Deceiver, and He will find them wanting. It is always better to win. And many of your people agree with me - from the MIO to the Imperial Family the godless heathens and worse that you have been so vocal in opposition to are now celebrated as decorated Imperial war heroes. I find it particularly interesting that the 24th Imperial Crusade has decided that my service and that of my thrice-notorious kirjuun is equally pleasing in the eyes of the Empress. Whilst your officers can't get through a simple dinner without spitting on their allies and won't even let you fly in the same organisation as their august selves, the Crusade deems us fit to fly in the same militia, occupy the same ranks and even awarded us the same medal as pure-blooded Amarrians. Does that sting a little?
Why would it? You see, even a little piece of wool from a bald defective sheep is good enough, so you might as well pat it for a job well done.
So job well done dear contractor, thank you for all the hard work you did.
Ou and one more thing, when did this happen "... agree with me - from the MIO ... "? |
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Kalo Askold
Sanguis Inceptum
5
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 17:18:52 -
[181] - Quote
PIE offering a lot of lip service with doing the very least for those they seem to want to help. Keep the slaves only for the lords who are just as bad as many capsuleers, sometimes worse.
Not Signed
The Amarr have no legitimacy in slave affairs and should not be given good attention when it's obvious they do not care about religious teachings. If they did Vitoxin would not be used and be banned, and slaves taught strict doctrines instead of being reduced to a child like state as they move planetary resources.
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Liam Antolliere
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
253
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 18:30:35 -
[182] - Quote
After careful consideration, I will add my signature in support to this notion.
While I oppose the practice of slavery on principle, I believe the regulation of the practice so it is restricted to the administration of those individuals who are qualified to oversee their instruction and edification under the guidelines and mandates of the governing entity which institutes the practice in the first place is far more preferable than the free access to slaves allowing the abuse and outright ignominy afforded to these individuals by those with less investment in their proper care.
....now I need a strong drink to wash this bitter aftertaste away.
Se il vous pla+«t pardonnez-moi.
"Let it never be said that I have not been true to myself and, in so doing, true to those around me."
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Dailar Toralen
Toralen Industries
3
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Posted - 2015.03.26 21:16:16 -
[183] - Quote
I would like to clarify something temporarily. My disregard for this Petition is not me supporting slavery, but however I hope to continue the expand the influence of Capsuleers within Imperial society, especially the ones that fight for the Empire. While we do not risk our lives (we are immortal), we risk something sometimes considered far greater, our banks. Basically, I am not disregarding this in support for slavery, yet to influence Capsuleer's rights (in fact I support Intaki Liberation from the Gallente Federation and am making bold moves to support the Intaki Home-System as a Trade Hub.
We are Toralen Industries. It doesn't matter if you fight for money, idealogies, or because it's what you are good at and it doesn't matter if you fight threw trade, combat, or diplomacy. No matter what or how you fight, there's a place for you.
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Nishachara
Stillwater Corporation
That Escalated Quickly.
28
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Posted - 2015.04.01 11:41:14 -
[184] - Quote
Signed . |
Benedicta Secheh
Little Sisters of the Most Holy Sword
25
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 22:56:36 -
[185] - Quote
Signed. Only Holders or duly authorized custodians should be permitted to acquire slaves from Imperial entities. |
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
7944
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 08:48:13 -
[186] - Quote
Signed.
Technical Support
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Mensha Khael Crow
House Murder
104
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 11:14:40 -
[187] - Quote
Signed.
Mensha Khael Crow
Capsuleer House Murder
Our righteousness is evident in the failures of the heathen,-áGod keep us from-áfalling-áprey to their weaknesses.
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Sahriah BloodStone
Hunter Killers.
Forsaken Asylum
67
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Posted - 2015.04.17 17:06:53 -
[188] - Quote
Merdaneth wrote:
My opinion is congruent with that of Admiral Blake on this matter.
No blanket bans. Merely introduce proper checks and balances.
Not Signed
The premise here is that only Amarrians have some imaginary right to own slaves. Just because you started doing it first, does not take away the right of anybody else to participate.
That being said i would be in support of proper background checks and regulations to ensure the industry is maintained properly.
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Isaiah Bishop
0
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Posted - 2015.04.17 17:28:37 -
[189] - Quote
Signed.
Not for the reasons stated by those who generated the petition -- but that is irrelevant. |
Lorelei Maeve
LeiTech Industries
43
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Posted - 2015.04.18 22:11:35 -
[190] - Quote
Liam Antolliere wrote:After careful consideration, I will add my signature in support to this notion.
While I oppose the practice of slavery on principle, I believe the regulation of the practice so it is restricted to the administration of those individuals who are qualified to oversee their instruction and edification under the guidelines and mandates of the governing entity which institutes the practice in the first place is far more preferable than the free access to slaves allowing the abuse and outright ignominy afforded to these individuals by those with less investment in their proper care.
....now I need a strong drink to wash this bitter aftertaste away.
S'il vous pla+«t pardonnez-moi.
Out of curiosity, what makes you think the people in question treat them any better or are more qualified to own them?
When one has weighed the sun in the balance, and measured the steps of the moon, and mapped out the seven heavens, there still remains oneself. Who can calculate the orbit of his own soul?
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Winter Archipelago
Furtherance.
367
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Posted - 2015.05.01 16:41:25 -
[191] - Quote
Hmph. I definitely do not sign.
Crew are far too expensive, especially when they know they'll be going into a wormhole, where surviving a ship's destruction is often a worse fate than dying with it.
A few hundred slaves and the necessary Vitoc and antidote are far cheaper, even when the slaves have been through the rigorous training necessary for use on Capsuleer ships, than trying to replace more worthwhile crews.
I would also add that the use of slaves greatly reduces the risk of some planet-dweller or station-walker from getting the notion in their head for revenge. The first few assassination attempts may have been humorous, but after that, it just becomes a nuisance.
Planning a trip to Thera? Check out http://eve-scout.com/ for a list of the current connections.
Once you've made your choice, join the channels EVE-Scout or Furtherance Public and request a scout to make sure your connection is clear!
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1442
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Posted - 2015.05.01 17:23:38 -
[192] - Quote
You are a Gallente capsuleer. You are not a Holder. You have no right to own slaves. The fact that someone like you is able to acquire them is exactly why this measure exists.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Sinjin Mokk
Stillwater Corporation
That Escalated Quickly.
77
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Posted - 2015.05.01 17:48:36 -
[193] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:You are a Gallente capsuleer. You are not a Holder. You have no right to own slaves. The fact that someone like you is able to acquire them is exactly why this measure exists.
Point of Order Miss Kernher. If you want to limit the sale of slaves within Amarr, that's fine. Khanid has different laws. Everywhere else has different laws. Some oppose the sale, some do not. Others simply don't care. Be he Gallente or Theran, I'm fairly certain the Empire is in no position to dictate to him what his "rights" are.
Now if Mssr. Archipelago is in the market, I have a fine assortment at the moment at popular prices...
Dark Amarr: Rumors!
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ValentinaDLM
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
Multicultural F1 Brigade
641
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 17:48:51 -
[194] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:You are a Gallente capsuleer. You are not a Holder. You have no right to own slaves. The fact that someone like you is able to acquire them is exactly why this measure exists.
No one ought to have that "right" but, even if the Amarrians actually enforced a holders only policy it wouldn't stop for example the Angel Cartel so, this has no power to stop this Gallentean capsuleer from getting and abusing slaves. |
Lunarisse Aspenstar
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
348
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 17:51:23 -
[195] - Quote
Now that the cluster-wide News Services have picked up on this Petition according to its mention in today's Scope News "running cable", I have more hopes that it might be considered seriously.
Again, I urge those who - after careful consideration have reviewed what the Bishop proposes - agree, to sign. |
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
955
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 18:11:35 -
[196] - Quote
The purpose of this petition was actually addressed to the SCC markets, not the Amarr Empire, the Khanid Kingdom, or other sovereign - or less sovereign - entities. The presence of slaves unregulated on the SCC markets was the issue at hand. It was not about regulation of the slave trade inside those entities, but regulation on the SCC market.
If I understood correctly, of course...
After careful consideration past those last months, I would like to add my signature on that petition, and feel that since slaves are prohibited in every empire but the Amarr Empire, added to the fact that capsuleers have no legal right from the Amarr Empire itself to deal in slave trading, then it becomes clear that the presence of slaves on said markets only creates problems.
If some capsuleers also holding any slaver or holder title are interested in the slave trade, they should pass through proper means, which are channels internal to the Empire or the Kingdom themselves. They are able to buy or sell slaves by Amarr or Khanid law, and not SCC law, and so should be restrained by those laws instead of SCC laws. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
Multicultural F1 Brigade
4763
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 18:35:22 -
[197] - Quote
Winter Archipelago wrote:Hmph. I definitely do not sign.
Crew are far too expensive, especially when they know they'll be going into a wormhole, where surviving a ship's destruction is often a worse fate than dying with it.
A few hundred slaves and the necessary Vitoc and antidote are far cheaper, even when the slaves have been through the rigorous training necessary for use on Capsuleer ships, than trying to replace more worthwhile crews.
I would also add that the use of slaves greatly reduces the risk of some planet-dweller or station-walker from getting the notion in their head for revenge. The first few assassination attempts may have been humorous, but after that, it just becomes a nuisance.
I never have a problem getting volunteers. Perhaps it's a problem of charisma?
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
|
Cakzad Arcashiri
Arcashiri Family
65
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 18:36:04 -
[198] - Quote
Signed.
As dictated by Amarrian Law and the Scriptures, only Holders and other figures authorized by the Emperor or Empress or the Theology Council may own and trade slaves.
I delivered a lecture upon leaving the Amarr Royal Institute concerning this anomaly created by the SCC, CONCORD, and the Empire. In my point of view this is allowed due to the fact that the Capsuleers hate us.
I will not go into a full on lecture, but basically this is heresy and should've been acted on by the Amarrian Goverment by now. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1446
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 19:03:03 -
[199] - Quote
Sinjin Mokk wrote:Samira Kernher wrote:You are a Gallente capsuleer. You are not a Holder. You have no right to own slaves. The fact that someone like you is able to acquire them is exactly why this measure exists. Point of Order Miss Kernher. If you want to limit the sale of slaves within Amarr, that's fine. Khanid has different laws. Everywhere else has different laws. Some oppose the sale, some do not. Others simply don't care. Be he Gallente or Theran, I'm fairly certain the Empire is in no position to dictate to him what his "rights" are. Now if Mssr. Archipelago is in the market, I have a fine assortment at the moment at popular prices...
God is in the position to dictate that right, and He has dictated through Scripture that that right is given exclusively to Holders.
It is heresy and a crime against God for anyone that is not a Holder to own slaves.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Ashlar Vellum
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
178
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 19:12:21 -
[200] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:The purpose of this petition was actually addressed to the SCC markets, not the Amarr Empire, the Khanid Kingdom, or other sovereign - or less sovereign - entities. The presence of slaves unregulated on the SCC markets was the issue at hand. It was not about regulation of the slave trade inside those entities, but regulation on the SCC market.
If I understood correctly, of course...
After careful consideration past those last months, I would like to add my signature on that petition, and feel that since slaves are prohibited in every empire but the Amarr Empire and Khanid Kingdom, added to the fact that capsuleers have no legal right from the Amarr Empire itself to deal in slave trading, then it becomes clear that the presence of slaves on said markets only creates problems.
If some capsuleers also holding any slaver or holder title are interested in the slave trade, they should pass through proper means, which are channels internal to the Empire or the Kingdom themselves. They are able to buy or sell slaves by Amarr or Khanid law, and not SCC law, and so should be restrained by those laws instead of SCC laws.
In short... that means that it should remain a baseliner issue and only a baseliner issue. Or, if for some reason slaves have to be authorized to capsuleer market through the SCC, then those markets and those of the empires should be kept separated.
Was it really Mrs Farel?
Alizebeth Amalath wrote:
...Changing the policy of the Imperial and Khanid institutions that sell slaves on the SCC market is a much more attainable and specific goal....
Alizebeth Amalath wrote:This is not directed at the SCC. This is directed to the Civic Court, Khanid Transport and the Ammatar Consulate. These are three Imperial/Kingdom agencies operating in sovereign Imperial/Kingdom space. This is a purely internal affair and has no bearing on the wider SCC markets or operations.
Alizebeth Amalath wrote:Samira is correct. This is in relation to the Greater Amarrian organizations. I personally would not be upset if all slaves were removed from the SCC market, but that is not what this is about. |
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Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
957
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 20:09:11 -
[201] - Quote
Oh... right. After so many months thinking about it, I eventually mixed up both... That is embarrassing...
In any case, that does not change my reasoning, although I would prefer to see the SCC directly barring the access to slaves as commodities since it would obviously prove to be a lot less efforts to act on the other side where there is only one entity (the SCC) instead of millions of independent traders (Holders, slavers, etc). |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
24617
|
Posted - 2015.05.02 00:36:33 -
[202] - Quote
It is better for slaves to be listed. How else would other free people buy them and free them? Not listing them on the market would not change the market demand for them one bit. Not listing them would take away access from liberators who would be barred from participating in an underground slave black market.
At least this way the transactions are taxed, with taxes funneled to stations and infrastructure in systems we all use.
6,000 dead, 14,000 injured, 130,000 homes destroyed. PLEX for Good: Nepal Earthquake Relief. USD $15 donated for each PLEX you donate.
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1447
|
Posted - 2015.05.02 01:08:37 -
[203] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:It is better for slaves to be listed. How else would other free people buy them and free them? Not listing them on the market would not change the market demand for them one bit. Not listing them would take away access from liberators who would be barred from participating in an underground slave black market.
This is another reason why they shouldn't be listed.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Yonis Vudori
University of Ammatar
3
|
Posted - 2015.05.02 15:56:10 -
[204] - Quote
Signed. |
Sinjin Mokk
Stillwater Corporation
That Escalated Quickly.
79
|
Posted - 2015.05.02 16:40:08 -
[205] - Quote
Cakzad Arcashiri wrote:
I will not go into a full on lecture, but basically this is heresy and should've been acted on by the Amarrian Goverment by now.
There are a great many heretical things the Amarrian Government should have acted on by now and haven't.
Keep in mind the differences in the laws regarding slave ownership between the Empire proper and the Khanid Kingdom. While non-Minmatar slaves are a minority, they are fully allowed. Including Amarr and Khanid (usually prisoners, people who talk during a holo and other undesirables). I don't see His Majesty allowing those laws to be changed in Khanid any time soon.
I don't think the Empire can have it both ways. You can't tell Group A it is ok to do the thing and tell Group B they can't do the thing without Group B getting bent out of shape over it. Group B then generally does the thing anyway. The scientific term for this process is "human nature." Slavery is an all or nothing issue. Either open the trade wide like the Khanid model or end it completely.
Dark Amarr: Rumors!
|
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1451
|
Posted - 2015.05.02 17:08:42 -
[206] - Quote
Group B in such an instance are heretics and should be punished for their transgressions. The fact that criminals like yourself exist and will break laws is not a reason to remove laws. Laws must be made and enforced, and those who break them must be punished.
The Khanid model rejects God. It rejects the divine right of Holders by allowing those of impure blood to deal in slaves. It is a faithless model that should never be allowed to translate to Amarr. Only Holder families are of proven purity, wisdom, and responsibility to be entrusted with the ownership of slaves. This is as God has decreed through Scripture. Slavery as an institution only works in the Empire, under the traditional laws that have governed it for thousands of years. Any other group that practices it is immoral and corrupt.
And there are non-Minmatar slaves in the Empire, too, Mokk. The Kingdom is not unique in that.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Ibrahim Tash-Murkon
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
132
|
Posted - 2015.05.02 18:37:53 -
[207] - Quote
The premise that Her Excellency founds her call to action on is of such a great severity that I am incredibly reluctant to support the proposition, as noble in its aims as it is, without firm evidence. If the Imperial agencies, like the Civic Court, are facilitating the sale of slaves to non-Holder individuals in the absence of the adequate licensing and issuing of Custodial Servitude Contracts then we must accept the existence of gross negligence, or conspiracy to subvert the Faith and Imperial Law, which would involve those at the highest echelons of the government up to, and including, members of the Privy Council. The seriousness of these accusations cannot be overstated or exaggerated.
While those Faithful who have given affirmations of support for the general principle of Her Excellency's statements certainly are right to wish to prohibit the sale of slaves in a manner which violates Imperial Law and the tenets of our Faith I think that they should be mindful that the specifics of this proposal allege serious crimes (of neglectful oversight, intentional unlawful activity, or both) against officials throughout the institutions of government reaching all the way to those that serve our Empress as Her closest and most trusted advisers and servants.
As such it seems reckless and irresponsible to suppose Imperial agencies and their counterparts in the Kingdom and the Mandate are engaging in high crimes until such time as there is an official confirmation of this conspiracy issued by a source empowered to make such statements by Her Imperial Majesty's Government.
"I give you the destiny of Faith, and you will bring its message to every planet of every star in the heavens: Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given." - Book of Reclaiming 22:13
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1454
|
Posted - 2015.05.02 19:33:37 -
[208] - Quote
Your lordship Ibrahim,
This is not something secret or hidden. It is a public sell order produced by the Civic Court (and as well by the Ammatar Consulate). Note in that image that I, a commoner, was able to purchase a slave from Civic Court through that buy order with no strings attached.
Additionally, this is not an accusation of criminal activity. Currently, these sales are entirely legal, due to SCC policies. This was stated in the past by Grand Inquisitor Ohrud Omel.
It is the call of this measure that Amarr take a stand against the SCC's policies, as these policies act against Scriptural law and the divine right of Holders. While it is not a crime against current liberal international trading laws, it is a crime against God. This is something that should not be legal, and the request we are making here is for Amarr to enforce traditional Scriptural laws and traditions over faithless SCC policies.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Ibrahim Tash-Murkon
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
133
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Posted - 2015.05.02 23:47:40 -
[209] - Quote
Lt. Kernher,
I have the highest respect for your opinion, on any matter but particularly on this one. My instinct to defer to your good judgement, however, is prevented by a fundamental difference we seem to have on the matter. If it is maintained that the Civic Court and similar organizations are issuing contracts for slave services and slave transport in accordance with Imperial Law and while being true and faithful to treaties agreed to by the Imperial Government then, from my point of view, this matter should be closed. The only way this petition makes sense to me is if activities are happening in contravention of the law.
If these transactions occur within a legal framework endorsed by the ministries and officials of the Imperial Government then there is no legitimate claim to have the practice abolished on Scriptural grounds. At least certainly not by means of a public petition. To do so is to directly challenge the interpretation abilities of Her Imperial Majesty's Government and, by extension, Her Imperial Majesty Herself. I appreciate the intentions of the Faithful in their support and feel that each has in his or her heart the best and most noble intentions. However, a policy carried about by Her Imperial Majesty's Government is not open to review or approval of the public.
There is not one among us who has the Scriptural authority or Divine endorsement to make the claim that the Throne and Its ministers have erred in interpreting the Scriptures. Only the Highest Authority has the right to question this practice and when and if She decides to do so it should have nothing to do us.
This is not a democracy. We do not question, we do not criticize. We obey.
"I give you the destiny of Faith, and you will bring its message to every planet of every star in the heavens: Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given." - Book of Reclaiming 22:13
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1455
|
Posted - 2015.05.02 23:52:16 -
[210] - Quote
I am not making an interpretation, my lord. I am stating a fact. The Scriptures make very clear that only Holders may own slaves.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Ibrahim Tash-Murkon
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
133
|
Posted - 2015.05.03 00:02:34 -
[211] - Quote
And I am sure that the Civic Court and other Imperial entities that engage in this practice are empowered by the Throne to lend the services of slaves, via the markets, in the same way as an individual holder may do with his or her own stock. I am not myself familiar with the intricacies of the contract law employed by the Civic Court but I am confident that the appropriate licenses and CSCs are attached to the slaves which are within their power to trade through the markets, SCC and domestic. Which is why in my initial statement I assumed that the petition must be alleging conspiracy to sell slave services without the proper authorization and suggested appropriate caution in leveling such grievous claims against the Imperial Government.
"I give you the destiny of Faith, and you will bring its message to every planet of every star in the heavens: Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given." - Book of Reclaiming 22:13
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1455
|
Posted - 2015.05.03 00:15:39 -
[212] - Quote
What you say above is why I have said that it is a loophole. It is an indecent attempt at exploiting foreign markets to bypass religious laws. It is the effort of certain liberal houses and organizations that put wealth over piety and see the Scriptures not as something to be obeyed as strict doctrine but instead to be evaded and deceived in whatever way makes them the most profit.
This has left Holder rights eroded, our slave markets depleting, and countless slaves butchered by heretics or stolen by liberators. All so that a few people can line their pockets.
The Empire serves God, not our wallets. These policies must be changed. Amarr laws must be built on Scripture, not foreign kredit.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Norrin Ellis
Venture Racing
305
|
Posted - 2015.05.03 00:21:25 -
[213] - Quote
Signed.
CEO, Venture Racing
Manager, EVE Online Hold'Em
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Sinjin Mokk
Stillwater Corporation
That Escalated Quickly.
80
|
Posted - 2015.05.03 02:50:26 -
[214] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:I am not making an interpretation, my lord. I am stating a fact. The divine rights of Holders are spelt out in Scriptures, and they make very clear that among those rights is the sole permanent ownership of slaves.
You are correct.
So how is it that the "group B model" in Khanid is not only allowed to exist, but was ratified by a treaty signed by the Empire and King Khanid II? Are you saying that the Empire went against Scripture?
I've been going through the treaties...did you know that Khanid isn't even bound by Empress Jamyl's Decree? It has no power in the Kingdom, leaving Khanid to keep their slaves of 9th and greater generation. While the religious leaders in the Kingdom still espouse the concept of slavery as a form of putative enlightenment, many consider this little more than lip service.
But Khanid is a part of the Empire. Khanid is a part of the same treaties and trade agreements that every government signed with CONCORD. This was all decided a long time ago, by people of greater rank and deeper understanding of Scripture than you or I.
Ergo, CONCORD and the Empire are not going to even look at this petition. They would just as soon abolish all slavery.
Now can we end this farce and turn our attention to more important issues?
Dark Amarr: Rumors!
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
Multicultural F1 Brigade
4765
|
Posted - 2015.05.03 09:58:21 -
[215] - Quote
Politics is the art of the possible. Khanid II has been quite clear about expanding his 'stock' of slaves. I understand some people make good money selling POWs, criminals and the like to the more unscrupulous of the Khanid slaver rings.
I'm sure Jamyl would exert her will, if she thought Khanid would take the public order hit that denying his Lords slaves would cause him. But he can't, so he won't, so she won't. That doesn't speak to what anybody wants.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1460
|
Posted - 2015.05.03 12:43:46 -
[216] - Quote
Sinjin Mokk wrote:So how is it that the "group B model" in Khanid is not only allowed to exist, but was ratified by a treaty signed by the Empire and King Khanid II? Are you saying that the Empire went against Scripture?
The Empire does not intervene in other sovereign nations' internal affairs under current international treaties. The Kingdom is not part of the Empire, we are just allied. If the Kingdom did proper rejoin the Empire again, then its heresies would be purged.
Quote:While the religious leaders in the Kingdom still espouse the concept of slavery as a form of putative enlightenment, many consider this little more than lip service.
The Kingdom does not have religious leaders.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Ashlar Vellum
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
178
|
Posted - 2015.05.03 20:35:45 -
[217] - Quote
Mrs Kernher petition that you are pushing so vigorously can lead to some very undesirable results, it saddens me you do not see that or maybe you do and all of this petition fuss is just a facade and smokescreens covering the true goal. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1461
|
Posted - 2015.05.03 21:05:02 -
[218] - Quote
How dare you accuse this of being a facade. What undesirable results could possibly arise from going back to the trade restrictions that we maintained without issue before the SCC was spawned? What was wrong with the original trading laws, like the Gallente-Amarr Free Trade Agreement? Under those policies, trade goods were strictly controlled and only Holders and licensed representatives were allowed to engage in business with foreign traders. Those policies preserved our cultural values, they upheld our religious principles. The liberal economics of the last few decades have ruined all of that. Maybe Amarr is making more money as a result, but it is the Deceiver's money.
Forgive me for actually caring about our traditions. Forgive me for asking that Scriptural laws be held above secular foreign ones. Forgive me for actually caring about what happens to the people I came from.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Sinjin Mokk
Stillwater Corporation
That Escalated Quickly.
81
|
Posted - 2015.05.03 21:24:50 -
[219] - Quote
Ah, Kernher, Kernher...
Your na+»vet+¬ is refreshing.
As you are, I was.
As I am, you will be.
Dark Amarr: Rumors!
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Tyrel Toov
Minmatar Confederate
Ushra'Khan
331
|
Posted - 2015.05.03 21:25:07 -
[220] - Quote
On the one hand, this movement would reduce the amount of targets we need to hit to go about freeing our people and keep slaves out of the hands of jack wagons like Naupilius. On the other hand we wouldn't be able to free them directly from the market, those slave convoys are going to get higher security, and I don't really care for the thought of encouraging your misguided "divine right" to own people..... so is half a signature sufficient?
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
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Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
957
|
Posted - 2015.05.04 09:25:20 -
[221] - Quote
I still think that this petition would be better addressed to the SCC. A lot less concerned parties (one, the SCC, versus millions all with their personal agendas), and also the other factions would have their word in the decision too, and knowing that their opinion is likely to abolish slave trading on the SCC intergalatic markets, the resolution of such a treaty would be a lot easier to achieve. |
Arnulf Ogunkoya
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
The 11th Hour Alliance
67
|
Posted - 2015.05.04 10:06:01 -
[222] - Quote
Tyrel Toov wrote:On the one hand, this movement would reduce the amount of targets we need to hit to go about freeing our people and keep slaves out of the hands of jack wagons like Naupilius. On the other hand we wouldn't be able to free them directly from the market, those slave convoys are going to get higher security, and I don't really care for the thought of encouraging your misguided "divine right" to own people..... so is half a signature sufficient?
Free them directly from the market?
Once upon a time it I believe it was U'K policy, and also EM policy, not to pay money for slaves on the understanding that doing so merely encouraged the system that trades in them. Has this changed? If so I am saddened to hear it.
Still I like the idea of taking slaves off the market so that the crazier bits of the capsuleer community can't easily get them in order to torment them.
Regards, Arnulf Ogunkoya.
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Cakzad Arcashiri
Arcashiri Family
100
|
Posted - 2015.05.04 11:56:44 -
[223] - Quote
In support of this petition, I will only trade slaves with the Families, or through personal dealings with known Holders, not the open market.
But wait, I was already doing that..... |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
Multicultural F1 Brigade
4769
|
Posted - 2015.05.04 14:48:55 -
[224] - Quote
Arnulf Ogunkoya wrote:Still I like the idea of taking slaves off the market so that the crazier bits of the capsuleer community can't easily get them in order to torment them.
Yeah. This is my main motivation. My secondary motivation for signing is that slavery is supposed to be prohibited outside of very special circumstances and only in Amarr space. It goes against the grain to paint a trade illegal and then provide an infrastructure framework for it.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Tyrel Toov
Minmatar Confederate
Ushra'Khan
336
|
Posted - 2015.05.04 16:58:45 -
[225] - Quote
Arnulf Ogunkoya wrote:Tyrel Toov wrote:On the one hand, this movement would reduce the amount of targets we need to hit to go about freeing our people and keep slaves out of the hands of jack wagons like Naupilius. On the other hand we wouldn't be able to free them directly from the market, those slave convoys are going to get higher security, and I don't really care for the thought of encouraging your misguided "divine right" to own people..... so is half a signature sufficient? Free them directly from the market? Once upon a time it I believe it was U'K policy, and also EM policy, not to pay money for slaves on the understanding that doing so merely encouraged the system that trades in them. Has this changed? If so I am saddened to hear it. Still I like the idea of taking slaves off the market so that the crazier bits of the capsuleer community can't easily get them in order to torment them.
I haven't always been part of the U'K, I abide by the policy of my alliance. It doesn't mean I disagree with the people who are acting in such a manner.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
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Ayallah
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
340
|
Posted - 2015.05.04 18:55:12 -
[226] - Quote
Yes, remove slaves from the SCC markets for good.
-áFear The Tribes
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Jade Blackwind
Alexylva Paradox
Low-Class
501
|
Posted - 2015.05.04 20:03:51 -
[227] - Quote
Seriously, remove it. This is disgusting to say the least. |
cimqe nyeeu
camdy and Co. inc.
0
|
Posted - 2015.05.04 21:03:52 -
[228] - Quote
not signed
i believe everyone has the right to have a slave not just the elite few |
Tyrel Toov
Minmatar Confederate
Ushra'Khan
336
|
Posted - 2015.05.04 22:18:40 -
[229] - Quote
U'tah Arareb wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh what part of Quote:And to those foreigners who will try to interject here and call for abolition: Don't. If you value the life and health of slaves, don't derail this thread. You would only be weakening this proposal and hurting the very people you want to protect. did you not understand?
Everything between "And" and "protect". We've all know this isn't about protecting the slaves, but returning the Empire back to it's roots. I'm half expecting a call for another reclaiming. You know, just to remind people what the Amarr empire is all about. Destroying cultures and whatnot.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
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Max Singularity
House Singularity
116
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 20:44:53 -
[230] - Quote
Congratulations on this message making an official The Scope banner feed!!
May they all be free.
May we all be free.
Harbinger of Faith his Holiness Maximilian Singularity of the Sixth Empire, Pope of New Eden
-First of his name-
((My doctors try to tell me Eve is not real... pffft... I've seen the YouTube Video. Eve is Real))
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1473
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 21:02:18 -
[231] - Quote
Max Singularity wrote:
Congratulations on this message making an official The Scope banner feed!!
May they all be free.
May we all be free.
This measure is not about abolition. It is only about upholding traditional restrictions on who is permitted to own slaves: Holders and Holders alone.
If you are looking to end slavery, then this is not the place for it.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Max Singularity
House Singularity
117
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 23:46:35 -
[232] - Quote
Induced unintended consequences in chaotic systems of purpose have many outcomes. The snowball has started rolling down the hill. You did this.
Harbinger of Faith his Holiness Maximilian Singularity of the Sixth Empire, Pope of New Eden
-First of his name-
((My doctors try to tell me Eve is not real... pffft... I've seen the YouTube Video. Eve is Real))
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Soren Tyrhanos
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
76
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Posted - 2015.05.07 04:04:32 -
[233] - Quote
Max Singularity wrote:Induced unintended consequences in chaotic systems of purpose have many outcomes. The snowball has started rolling down the hill. You did this.
What she and the other proponents of this thread have done is bring to light an issue that is a result of a degradation of traditional values that negatively impacts the lives of the slaves whom our Holder's should be cultivating as potential converts to the Faith.
Freeing these slaves without them having achieved the fundamental purpose of their servitude benefits no one foremost, amongst the concerned parties, the slaves themselves. The Republic can barely economically sustain their own people let alone billions of slaves, the Federation wouldn't want to, and even the Caldari I am sure would struggle under their weight. |
Plan Neun
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2015.05.07 13:34:49 -
[234] - Quote
Not signed
This peace of paper is worth nothing. It will only create an even bigger black market and illegal flow of misery for those envolved.
The pirate cartels will ofcourse welcome this.
This is a silly as banning milk, yeay to the gallentes for that!
" Invader's blood marches through my veins like giant radioactive rubber pants! "
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
Multicultural F1 Brigade
4796
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 00:56:30 -
[235] - Quote
Soren Tyrhanos wrote:Max Singularity wrote:Induced unintended consequences in chaotic systems of purpose have many outcomes. The snowball has started rolling down the hill. You did this. What she and the other proponents of this thread have done is bring to light an issue that is a result of a degradation of traditional values that negatively impacts the lives of the slaves whom our Holder's should be cultivating as potential converts to the Faith. Freeing these slaves without them having achieved the fundamental purpose of their servitude benefits no one foremost, amongst the concerned parties, the slaves themselves. The Republic can barely economically sustain their own people let alone billions of slaves, the Federation wouldn't want to, and even the Caldari I am sure would struggle under their weight.
The Caldari would decline the opportunity to struggle under their weight. They're not OUR slaves, after all and doesn't freedom suggest some degree of responsibility for their own fate? Anything else and they would just be changing masters and collars...
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Soren Tyrhanos
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
80
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 04:00:25 -
[236] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Soren Tyrhanos wrote:Max Singularity wrote:Induced unintended consequences in chaotic systems of purpose have many outcomes. The snowball has started rolling down the hill. You did this. What she and the other proponents of this thread have done is bring to light an issue that is a result of a degradation of traditional values that negatively impacts the lives of the slaves whom our Holder's should be cultivating as potential converts to the Faith. Freeing these slaves without them having achieved the fundamental purpose of their servitude benefits no one foremost, amongst the concerned parties, the slaves themselves. The Republic can barely economically sustain their own people let alone billions of slaves, the Federation wouldn't want to, and even the Caldari I am sure would struggle under their weight. The Caldari would decline the opportunity to struggle under their weight. They're not OUR slaves, after all and doesn't freedom suggest some degree of responsibility for their own fate? Anything else and they would just be changing masters and collars...
I care not how your people would attempt to bear their weight only point that that who beyond the Amarr are willing AND capable enough to do so? |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
Multicultural F1 Brigade
4796
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 06:38:05 -
[237] - Quote
Soren Tyrhanos wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Soren Tyrhanos wrote:Max Singularity wrote:Induced unintended consequences in chaotic systems of purpose have many outcomes. The snowball has started rolling down the hill. You did this. What she and the other proponents of this thread have done is bring to light an issue that is a result of a degradation of traditional values that negatively impacts the lives of the slaves whom our Holder's should be cultivating as potential converts to the Faith. Freeing these slaves without them having achieved the fundamental purpose of their servitude benefits no one foremost, amongst the concerned parties, the slaves themselves. The Republic can barely economically sustain their own people let alone billions of slaves, the Federation wouldn't want to, and even the Caldari I am sure would struggle under their weight. The Caldari would decline the opportunity to struggle under their weight. They're not OUR slaves, after all and doesn't freedom suggest some degree of responsibility for their own fate? Anything else and they would just be changing masters and collars... I care not how your people would attempt to bear their weight only point that that who beyond the Amarr are willing AND capable enough to do so?
Does it matter? The truth is that only those with a plan to support them after release have the moral mandate to demand that release. The Federation could probably manage to find the resources, but I'm certain they wouldn't enjoy what it would do to their standard of living. Our Ushra friends claim that they would make the Empire fund that support as reparations, but they claim this whilst having no real plan for gaining the political or military capital to enforce such a resolution. They also ignore the fact that the release of slaves itself would break the Empire in the short term and they would have no ability to make reparations whilst simultaneously rebuilding their economy.
In any case, this discussion is about removing slaves as a tradeable commodity on the SCC market and not about abolition. Frankly, I find the practice needlessly demeaning and completely counter to Heiian - but it's not my practice and it isn't my place to tell you how to run your society.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Jvpiter
Jovelike
3574
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 06:53:07 -
[238] - Quote
I get confused about arbitrary terms and labels.
If I find myself out in space, I'm on a ship littered with humans whose compensation is a pittance. As soon as they step aboard my ship, their life and death is completely at my whim. I can direct every action they take at my helm and ship stations. I dictate the food they eat, or if they eat at all. I can work them to death if I so choose. I can legally self destruct my vessel and kill the entire crew without incurring a scar, or facing a single fine or criminal charge.
My slaves carry me, their legally entitled ship master, through Amarr space. Explain to me again what this petition is about, then.
Call me Joe.
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1485
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 07:17:23 -
[239] - Quote
Jvpiter wrote:Explain to me again what this petition is about, then.
To keep them away from people like you.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Alizebeth Amalath
Sanctus Amarria
33
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 15:11:38 -
[240] - Quote
Every time I think that I should respond to something, I see that Samira has beaten me to it and said pretty much what I would have. |
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Jvpiter
Jovelike
3576
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 16:48:11 -
[241] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Jvpiter wrote:Explain to me again what this petition is about, then. To keep them away from people like you.
I have slaves. They pack themselves into every ship I fly and they are expendable and replaceable.
You seem to be under the impression that the Amarr have some unique divine mandate for oppressing people. Power gives us that mandate. There is nothing holy or cultural about it.
The free market owes nothing to the idea of upholding Amarr cultural restrictions. The free market belongs to no single Empire, and it would be a toxic precedent to bend to some poorly defined, arbitrary social moray that only the vocal elements from a single faction care about.
e: fixed some of my sentences
Call me Joe.
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Tyrel Toov
Minmatar Confederate
Ushra'Khan
356
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 16:58:17 -
[242] - Quote
Jvpiter wrote:Samira Kernher wrote:Jvpiter wrote:Explain to me again what this petition is about, then. To keep them away from people like you. I have slaves. They pack themselves into every ship I fly and they are expendable and replaceable. You seem to be under the impression that the Amarr have some unique divine mandate for oppressing people. Power gives us that mandate. There is nothing holy or cultural about it. The free market owes nothing to the idea of upholding Amarr cultural restrictions. The free market belongs to no single Empire, and it would be a toxic precedent to bend to some poorly defined, arbitrary social moray that only the vocal elements from a single faction care about. e: fixed some of my sentences
Annnnnnnd, red-listed.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
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Jvpiter
Jovelike
3576
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 17:02:31 -
[243] - Quote
Tyrel Toov wrote:
Annnnnnnd, red-listed.
The feeling is not mutual.
Call me Joe.
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Lulu Lunette
Lunette Pathfinders
2
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 17:15:52 -
[244] - Quote
Signed. Free my Vherokior and Minmatar brothers and sisters!! |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1490
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 17:55:44 -
[245] - Quote
Lulu Lunette wrote:Signed. Free my Vherokior and Minmatar brothers and sisters!!
Samira Kernher wrote:This measure is not about abolition. It is only about upholding traditional restrictions on who is permitted to own slaves: Holders and Holders alone.
If you are looking to end slavery, then this is not the place for it.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Ashlar Vellum
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
178
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 20:41:52 -
[246] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:How dare you accuse this of being a facade. What undesirable results could possibly arise from going back to the trade restrictions that we maintained without issue before the SCC was spawned? What was wrong with the original trading laws, like the Gallente-Amarr Free Trade Agreement? Under those policies, trade goods were strictly controlled and only Holders and licensed representatives were allowed to engage in business with foreign traders. Those policies preserved our cultural values, they upheld our religious principles. The liberal economics of the last few decades have ruined all of that. Maybe Amarr is making more money as a result, but it is the Deceiver's money.
Forgive me for actually caring about our traditions. Forgive me for asking that Scriptural laws be held above secular foreign ones. Forgive me for actually caring about what happens to the people I came from.
Then I take it, you are content with how this debacle was handled so far? Made in to this public parade for all to see, turned into shame and blame crusade, involving people who shouldn't have a say in such matters.
Did you consider how none capsuleers holders and high-ranking ministers, officers etc will see this petition? Do you want to see unrest and turmoil in your own home? And what if your petition will go unanswered, do you even comprehend how you are making MIO and Trade Registry look? Does it not raise any concerns that after "signing" this petition of yours some amarr capsuleers were erased from the face of universe?
If you truly care about traditions and the Empire, then don't be so naive and shortsighted.
And please don't compare your "thing" with Gallente-Amarr Free Trade Agreement; it was made internally, by the right people, without outsiders pushing for their agenda.
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Cakzad Arcashiri
Arcashiri Family
114
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 21:13:42 -
[247] - Quote
I will make sure to address this matter at the P.P.C. |
Pius Pareka
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2015.05.10 01:13:00 -
[248] - Quote
As a new capsuleer who earns a relatively lucrative source of stable income transporting slaves purchased via the SCC market I can not support this petition.
I would ask how those in opposition propose that the transport of slaves be accomplished without the market acting as intermediary between capsuleer transports and holders through out imperial and Khanid controlled space. |
Anuri Suaraj
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
18
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 15:01:15 -
[249] - Quote
Signed.
Pius Pareka wrote:As a new capsuleer who earns a relatively lucrative source of stable income transporting slaves purchased via the SCC market I can not support this petition.
I would ask how those in opposition propose that the transport of slaves be accomplished without the market acting as intermediary between capsuleer transports and holders through out imperial and Khanid controlled space.
As a new capsuleer, I have to say that I detest other new capsuleers that are unable to find lucrative sources of income that do no include unnecessary transport and unauthorized resale of slaves.
The Empire lives and breathes by a very specific set of rules, and opposing those rules is as futile as opposing God's will. |
Jili Tonari
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 18:11:13 -
[250] - Quote
Cakzad Arcashiri wrote:I will make sure to address this matter at the P.P.C.
#NoAbolitionNoPeace! |
|
|
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
1732
|
Posted - 2015.05.18 11:47:42 -
[251] - Quote
Shouldn't minmatars rather welcome free slave trade so they can just buy them back?
Or they are just puny warmongers, who use cultural difference of the Empire (slavery as cultural institution) to make their excuse to wage war against them? |
Tyrel Toov
Minmatar Confederate
Ushra'Khan
376
|
Posted - 2015.05.18 15:29:24 -
[252] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Shouldn't minmatars rather welcome free slave trade so they can just buy them back?
Or they are just puny warmongers, who use cultural difference of the Empire (slavery as cultural institution) to make their excuse to wage war against them?
Something something pot, something something kettle....
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
|
Kahar Dex
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
130
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 09:14:56 -
[253] - Quote
I am still going through my backlogs, but this one was flagged in my urgent pile.
This I support wholeheartedly.
Signed,
His Eminence Cardinal Kahar Dex
Cardinal of Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
His Eminence Cardinal Kahar Dex of the CVA and Imperial Dreams.
Follow The Cardinal: @kahardex
|
Maria Daphiti
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
63
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 13:47:11 -
[254] - Quote
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:Signed. Only Holders are legally allowed to own slaves, not any fool with a capsuleer license. Reform this practice at once.
What he said!
Signed. |
Alesius Lerance
Varner Industries
Shattered Vection
17
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 22:06:53 -
[255] - Quote
Signed, strictly for the purposes of ending the institution overall, rather than, I am sorry to say, because of a belief in the rights of the Holders. I know it is unlikely to ever end within the Empire, but taking steps to curtail it outside of Imperial territory is a good start.
Family, Corporation, and State, in that order. What else is there worth fighting for?
|
Anyanka Funk
Jacklight Corporation
138
|
Posted - 2015.07.16 23:30:46 -
[256] - Quote
As long as the SCC leaves tourists on the market for me to buy and do whatever I want with, I personally could care less about the slave removal. |
Genzel Recidivus
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
0
|
Posted - 2015.07.17 02:05:23 -
[257] - Quote
Signed. |
Alesius Lerance
Varner Industries
Shattered Vection
18
|
Posted - 2015.07.17 20:53:02 -
[258] - Quote
Anyanka Funk wrote:As long as the SCC leaves tourists on the market for me to buy and do whatever I want with, I personally could care less about the slave removal.
*Couldn't care less.
If you're going to be a manical Cannibal, at least do us the courtesy of keeping your translation software updated and functioning.
Family, Corporation, and State, in that order. What else is there worth fighting for?
|
Anyanka Funk
Jacklight Corporation
143
|
Posted - 2015.07.17 21:33:10 -
[259] - Quote
Alesius Lerance wrote:Anyanka Funk wrote:As long as the SCC leaves tourists on the market for me to buy and do whatever I want with, I personally could care less about the slave removal. *Couldn't care less. If you're going to be a manical Cannibal, at least do us the courtesy of keeping your translation software updated and functioning.
I could care less.  |
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
2385
|
Posted - 2015.08.13 20:59:01 -
[260] - Quote
Signed |
|
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
988
|
Posted - 2015.08.13 23:19:48 -
[261] - Quote
Alizebeth Amalath wrote:Barsam Akhtar wrote:I shall add my signature to this noble cause.
The relationship between Holder and Slave is a holy covenant with God: the slave offers their blood and toil to God's greater glory . . . Phrasing!
Indeed. To say the slave offers something implies they have the option not to. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
988
|
Posted - 2015.08.13 23:24:41 -
[262] - Quote
The Leopardess wrote:Oh REALLY? You're going to pull the HERETIC card? I love how everyone and their dog loving grandmother seems to have the authority to dictate what IS and what is not HERESY these days!
How about we just pull the 'victim' card? Because you will be. Soon. Authority, as the Empress demonstrated in Sarum Prime, comes from having the biggest number of the biggest guns. And you don't.
Squeeze what sadistic joy you can from your station, 'holder'. We are coming. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
990
|
Posted - 2015.08.14 00:28:06 -
[263] - Quote
Dailar Toralen wrote: I was wondering when someone was going to catch that. The Intaki are advanced, they will prosper if they are free, make peace, alliances, benefit the galaxy. The Minmatars are primitive creatures, when they were freed all they did was curse this Galaxy to war.
Step outside your little sporting event and come to the where we fight real wars and say that, tough guy. You're nothing but a glorified Combat Biker power forward. |
The Leopardess
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2015.08.14 10:17:03 -
[264] - Quote
There's nothing particularily horrible about slavery. If one finds themselves a slave, they should perhaps consider why God is pissed off at them, quite frankly. They've probably been little a**holes. |
Sinti Vailatti
Royal Khanid Colonial Exploration
10
|
Posted - 2015.08.14 20:22:14 -
[265] - Quote
Ok, granted I've been out of the loop for a few years.
Given my previous status as a slave of the Empire, I would like to just put here the last official statement I remember from the Ministry of Internal Order:
"1) It is not illegal for capsuleers to transport slaves as cargo within the Empire.
2) It is not illegal for Holders to place their slaves on the open market within the Empire.
3) The SCC-controlled and maintained interstellar marketplace is considered a legal open market by the Empire due to CONCORD treaties.
4) It is not illegal for individuals of all social standing within the Empire to purchase goods and services off an open market.
5) The SCC does not mandate any restrictions based on social standing on any transactions that occur on its interstellar marketplace.
"I can only comment on the base legality of the situation, but am unable to provide commentary on the social, moral, or ethical implications of capsuleers of non-Holder birth who own slaves." -Grand Inquisitor Ohrud Omel.
Quoted with all due respects. Apologies if I've missed any official Imperial change since this was written (YC: 115).
If you have a problem with Slavery and open markets, take it up with CONCORD. Amarr doesn't hold a monopoly on the market and every other government signed off on this.
It should also be noted that slavery is different in Khanid, but the above regulations with the SCC are equally binding.
|
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2187
|
Posted - 2015.08.14 20:54:17 -
[266] - Quote
What is binding is Scripture, and Scripture defines that only Holders have spiritual authority to own slaves.
And Amarr does hold the monopoly. No other nation has any right to engage in the practice.
"The word of the Empress is the word of God, the will of the Empress is the will of God. Let no man seek to shirk his obligations before God and His chosen representative in this world."
-- Datna Jesebel, Principal Clerk of the Theology Council
|
Claudia Osyn
Minmatar Confederate
Ushra'Khan
1422
|
Posted - 2015.08.14 21:16:35 -
[267] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:What is binding is Scripture, and Scripture defines that only Holders have spiritual authority to own slaves.
And Amarr does hold the monopoly. No other nation has any right to engage in the practice.
Only because we are a bit to civilized to want the "right"
A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1548
|
Posted - 2015.08.14 23:39:31 -
[268] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:What is binding is Scripture, and Scripture defines that only Holders have spiritual authority to own slaves.
And Amarr does hold the monopoly. No other nation has any right to engage in the practice.
Utter bollocks. |
Sinjin Mokk
Royal Khanid Colonial Exploration
495
|
Posted - 2015.08.14 23:45:11 -
[269] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:What is binding is Scripture, and Scripture defines that only Holders have spiritual authority to own slaves.
And Amarr does hold the monopoly. No other nation has any right to engage in the practice.
What is binding Lieutenant, is Scripture as defined by the Theology Council. The Ministry of Internal Order deals with individuals who do not follow the Council's definitions. I do not think it is a very wise move to suggest that you know Scripture better than a Grand Inquisitior.
You are also incorrect in that Amarr holds a monopoly on legal slave trade. Khanid is a sovereign signatory on the referenced treaties.
I sincerely hope you will take a moment to deeply consider not responding to this thread any further.
Dark Amarr: Rumors!
|
Alizebeth Amalath
Sanctus Amarria
114
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 00:26:33 -
[270] - Quote
Scripture clearly states that only Holders may own slaves. |
|
|
Ashlar Vellum
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
199
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 00:34:49 -
[271] - Quote
Claudia Osyn wrote:Samira Kernher wrote:What is binding is Scripture, and Scripture defines that only Holders have spiritual authority to own slaves.
And Amarr does hold the monopoly. No other nation has any right to engage in the practice.
Only because we are a bit to civilized to want the "right"
It doesn't actually matter are you for slavery or against, CONCORD spits on every nations ideals, traditions, laws etc. and no one makes a peep.
Where are all those freedom loving gallente with their visions of freedom and liberty for every man or all this ends when CONCORD money get in your pockets? Where are all those brave matari who will not stop until each and every of "their" people are free or all those people on SCC markets became not "yours" all of a sudden? Where are all those honorable caldari who value their State laws and won't let anything or anyone break them? Where are all those proud and just amarr who know the true path and not afraid to follow it or the only one left are hypocrites who will more gladly accuse their own of heresy than stand against CONCORD greed?
All of your great laws, high ideals and traditions mean nothing when they can be broken in your stations and in your own space 'cause of some treaty.
|
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2189
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 00:49:15 -
[272] - Quote
Lord Mokk,
In the interests of diplomacy, I shall offer only the following in response to your comments:
I disagree.
"The word of the Empress is the word of God, the will of the Empress is the will of God. Let no man seek to shirk his obligations before God and His chosen representative in this world."
-- Datna Jesebel, Principal Clerk of the Theology Council
|
The Leopardess
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
8
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 08:09:14 -
[273] - Quote
Oh, but even us devout Amarrians defy scripture all the time. Everyone is sinful, and causing suffering which is completely under the control of God is not as big of a sin as denying God for example. I am up in arms about that, and you all should be too.
No one should pick and choose priorities based on pet vanities, clearly everyone who is so obsessed with abolishing one of our most time-honored traditions loves the delicious feeling of superiority when they denounce slavers. This sort of false morality is governed by self-righteousness instead of the righteousness of God.
One should always prioritize based on the gravity of the sin, and using force against another human being as long as it doesn't involve killing them or preventing them from praying is just a little bit of a sin when it is done by the irreligious. If they are God-fearing it is not as bad as a non-slaver who promotes vigorously the falsehood of their precious "freedom" like in the Gallente Federation.
Khanid is a part of Amarr and their voice in the matter has to be accounted for as they were chosen by God very early on at the dawn of the Great Crusade, this is undeniable. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2196
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 08:22:18 -
[274] - Quote
The Leopardess wrote:No one should pick and choose priorities based on pet vanities, clearly everyone who is so obsessed with abolishing one of our most time-honored traditions loves the delicious feeling of superiority when they denounce slavers. This sort of false morality is governed by self-righteousness instead of the righteousness of God.
This petition has absolutely nothing to do with abolition. It is about restoring our traditional values, by eliminating the liberal business practices that have allowed non-Holders to own slaves. Scripture clearly defines the divine rights of Holders, among which is the sole ownership of slaves. This is a tradition that must be reclaimed. Commoners and foreigners have no right to own slaves.
"The word of the Empress is the word of God, the will of the Empress is the will of God. Let no man seek to shirk his obligations before God and His chosen representative in this world."
-- Datna Jesebel, Principal Clerk of the Theology Council
|
Utari Onzo
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
603
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 08:30:02 -
[275] - Quote
Sinti Vailatti wrote:Ok, granted I've been out of the loop for a few years.
Given my previous status as a slave of the Empire, I would like to just put here the last official statement I remember from the Ministry of Internal Order:
"1) It is not illegal for capsuleers to transport slaves as cargo within the Empire.
2) It is not illegal for Holders to place their slaves on the open market within the Empire.
3) The SCC-controlled and maintained interstellar marketplace is considered a legal open market by the Empire due to CONCORD treaties.
4) It is not illegal for individuals of all social standing within the Empire to purchase goods and services off an open market.
5) The SCC does not mandate any restrictions based on social standing on any transactions that occur on its interstellar marketplace.
"I can only comment on the base legality of the situation, but am unable to provide commentary on the social, moral, or ethical implications of capsuleers of non-Holder birth who own slaves." -Grand Inquisitor Ohrud Omel.
Quoted with all due respects. Apologies if I've missed any official Imperial change since this was written (YC: 115).
If you have a problem with Slavery and open markets, take it up with CONCORD. Amarr doesn't hold a monopoly on the market and every other government signed off on this.
It should also be noted that slavery is different in Khanid, but the above regulations with the SCC are equally binding.
This sounds more and more and more like legal loopholes created from the Empire's association with CONCORD. I fully endorse the SCC markets as a wealth generating and growth supporting enterprise, but in the matter of the sale of slaves that really should be taken off the SCC markets and out of the hands of people like Nauplius.
A re-evaluation of the Empire's treaties and relationship with CONCORD might be in order to prevent this practice from continuing, but that is for our betters to initiate.
"Face the enemy as a solid wall
For faith is your armor
And through it, the enemy will find no breach
Wrap your arms around the enemy
For faith is your fire
And with it, burn away his evil"
|
The Leopardess
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
8
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 08:32:01 -
[276] - Quote
I don't know if you noticed this, but, there are a lot of other traditional Amarrian values the merchants in those markets have not adopted.
It's still illegal in Amarr, but since when have our laws ever stopped the Godless?
This is like battling an ocean of sin with a hairdryer. The root of the evil is not in this action of selling slaves, it is merely a symptom of a greater sin of not recognizing God's authority and Amarrian authority.
I am more concerned with research and development of warfare technology to permit Amarrians to reclaim the Godless, rather than playing their game on their terms.
I spit on petitions! |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2196
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 08:38:44 -
[277] - Quote
Because this isn't about those markets. This is about our markets. About people who are governed under Scriptural law who refuse to uphold it. The Civic Court and the Ammatar Consulate, both who freely and willingly engage in the sale of slaves to commoners and foreigners in defiance of Scripture and traditional laws. Both who try to cite international law to validate their liberal business practices when the laws they should be concerning themselves with is God's Law.
The fact that someone like myself, a commoner of minmatar descent and former slave, the absolute furthest thing from being a Holder, can go to a Civic Court station in Amarr space and freely purchase slaves from an Imperial institution, is utterly despicable. That is what this is about.
"The word of the Empress is the word of God, the will of the Empress is the will of God. Let no man seek to shirk his obligations before God and His chosen representative in this world."
-- Datna Jesebel, Principal Clerk of the Theology Council
|
The Leopardess
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
8
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 09:29:52 -
[278] - Quote
But you're not going to the Civic Court station and buying slaves. That's your choice. People may choose to sin all the time, that doesn't mean we should analyze ever transaction that happens.
I can't be bothered to go pick up slaves my mother assigns me, and I wouldn't appreciate having to personally travel to the middle of nowhere, interrupting my work in the war machine to have to somehow micromanage slave transactions. She certainly would NOT appreciate having to go there herself either and would probably just reassign holdership as a proxy to someone who would then spend all of their time managing slave transactions in person. Does that sound like Amarrian tradition?
We are granted authority by God, not restrictions based on the shortcomings of others. I will not be bound by this.
This is just going to restrict progress, business, technological advancement and make for longer waits in the holding areas for the slaves.
When my agents go to the markets they are buying more than slaves, and since slaves are replaced so infrequently it is simply not practical to just buy slaves, they need to be in the broader market just for the sake of convenience.
I am not going to have my businesses suffer because some unauthorized and lawless person might see fit to take Sin upon him or herself. That is between them, God and the Inquisition or Concord, whichever jurisdiction they fall under, once that act is committed. |
Thornir
Litla Sundlaugin
10
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 09:31:47 -
[279] - Quote
Signed.
The right to slaves are only to be held by Holders.
FC? Hello. Warp to me! I am here!
In Game blog
|
The Leopardess
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
8
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 09:41:34 -
[280] - Quote
Thornir wrote:Signed.
The right to slaves are only to be held by Holders.
That's not what the "petition" is about. Actually it's not even a well written petition it's just a paragraph from a liberal fruit dictating to Holders how they should conduct business in Amarr.
If every slave in the markets had a Holder standing right next to them they still wouldn't be happy. |
|
|
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2196
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 09:48:04 -
[281] - Quote
The Leopardess wrote:But you're not going to the Civic Court station and buying slaves. That's your choice. People may choose to sin all the time, that doesn't mean we should analyze ever transaction that happens.
But we should.
You promote slavery while in the same words oppose it. You say that people should be allowed the freedom to choose to sin or not, while supporting an institution for which the purpose is to shackle people and prevent them from engaging in sinful behavior.
Few people can be trusted to uphold righteous behavior on their own will. Restrictions and laws must be enforced to prevent people from allowing themselves to fall to temptation and sin. God demands that His Will be obeyed, and it is our duty as His servants to enforce His Will on those who would refuse Him.
Quote:I can't be bothered to go pick up slaves my mother assigns me, and I wouldn't appreciate having to personally travel to the middle of nowhere, interrupting my work in the war machine to have to somehow micromanage slave transactions.
But you wouldn't have to. Custodians and slavers given license to act as an official representative of their Holder's will is not in opposition of God. What is in opposition is people void of any such official capacity or even Amarrian nationality being permitted to make slave transactions. That is what must be stopped.
Quote:This is just going to restrict progress, business, technological advancement
Then let it. Upholding righteous behavior and spiritual prudence is more important than material wealth.
"The word of the Empress is the word of God, the will of the Empress is the will of God. Let no man seek to shirk his obligations before God and His chosen representative in this world."
-- Datna Jesebel, Principal Clerk of the Theology Council
|
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2196
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 09:50:52 -
[282] - Quote
The Leopardess wrote:Thornir wrote:Signed.
The right to slaves are only to be held by Holders. That's not what the "petition" is about. Actually it's not even a well written petition it's just a paragraph from a liberal fruit dictating to Holders how they should conduct business in Amarr. If every slave in the markets had a Holder standing right next to them they still wouldn't be happy.
You're the one promoting liberal economic interests over enforcement of traditional values.
"The word of the Empress is the word of God, the will of the Empress is the will of God. Let no man seek to shirk his obligations before God and His chosen representative in this world."
-- Datna Jesebel, Principal Clerk of the Theology Council
|
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1313
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 11:51:22 -
[283] - Quote
I am not sure to understand how the lack of slaves restrict progress, business and technological advancement... |
The Leopardess
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
14
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 13:06:32 -
[284] - Quote
This is clearly a pet cause of your Samira, I'm sure brought on by your personal experiences. People who are not Holders are already NOT permitted to buy slaves. If such a one does then of course they should be punished.
War is and always will be at the forefront of my family's concerns, not the freeing or comfort of slaves. War demands weapons, and weapons demand raw materials created or mined partially by slaves like the ones working in my mines and factories. It is glorious combat that will enforce righteousness. This is not glorious combat. This is bureaucracy!
You are saying that Holders are somehow currently breaking with scripture by facilitating the ease of putting slaves to honest and Godly work. There is no better work that contributes to the glory of the Amarr, which is the glory of God in the material world, than the work my family and other honorable hard working Holder families puts them towards. We work as hard as our slaves, if not harder.
Furthermore you are saying that we should enforce His Will. I am saying that to enforce that Will, laws have to have been broken. Even if a non-holder should purchase a slave, it may be that that non-holder will deliver it to a Godly market where they know proper Holder will give them a fair price and thus I believe they redeem themselves. I would not punish such a one.
That would be a very minor sin. There are greater sins, for example, fighting against Amarrian people in rebelliousness. I don't see any Amarrians complaining about that sin.
This isn't a "petition" to punish someone who has broken His Law or Man's Law. This is a "petition" to force unnecessary hardship specifically on Amarrian businessmen of the Holder class.
Restricting the passage of slaves through the Empire like this will only hurt my business and the business of other Holders. hurting business for Amarr hurts the War effort, and hurting the War effort is an affront to God's will! |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2200
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 13:17:38 -
[285] - Quote
As someone who actually fights in the war, I'd appreciate you not telling me what does or does not hurt the war effort.
"The word of the Empress is the word of God, the will of the Empress is the will of God. Let no man seek to shirk his obligations before God and His chosen representative in this world."
-- Datna Jesebel, Principal Clerk of the Theology Council
|
Sinjin Mokk
Royal Khanid Colonial Exploration
500
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 14:57:06 -
[286] - Quote
Alizebeth Amalath wrote:Scripture clearly states that only Holders may own slaves.
Samira Kernher wrote:Lord Mokk,
In the interests of diplomacy, I shall offer only the following in response to your comments:
I disagree.
My Ladies,
Perhaps we do things a bit differently in Khanid. Actually, I'm sure we do.
I was raised to believe in the Law of the Conservation Energy, their Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch and when a Grand Inquisitor or the Council makes a ruling on something, you do NOT argue.
Ms. Vailatti's quote is older, but it is authentic. You may say it's wrong if you like but I'm not going to suggest a Grand Inquisitor does not know what he's talking about in an open forum. Until the Order or the Council redacts and clarifies the issue further I'm going to work under the assumption that they know what they're talking about.
Traditionally, Slaves were the responsibility of Holders alone. Traditions change. Laws change. Treaties change. I'll abide by the decisions of my betters in the Order. I pray all members of the Empire, no matter how Liberal or Conservative follow suit. Now is the time for solidarity, not division.
Slavery in the Kingdom and the Empire is not going to change through our actions. To suggest otherwise is an exercise in ego and futility.
Dark Amarr: Rumors!
|
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2201
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 15:20:20 -
[287] - Quote
Sinjin Mokk wrote:Ms. Vailatti's quote is older, but it is authentic. You may say it's wrong if you like but I'm not going to suggest a Grand Inquisitor does not know what he's talking about in an open forum. Until the Order or the Council redacts and clarifies the issue further I'm going to work under the assumption that they know what they're talking about.
I haven't said that the honorable grand inquisitor's statement is wrong.
What I have said is the fact that things are as he has said goes against the divine rights of Holders as written in Scripture, and that this should be rectified.
"The word of the Empress is the word of God, the will of the Empress is the will of God. Let no man seek to shirk his obligations before God and His chosen representative in this world."
-- Datna Jesebel, Principal Clerk of the Theology Council
|
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1316
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 15:23:49 -
[288] - Quote
I think you are right in that there might be a little apparent inconsistency, but I think just asking politely why would probably achieve more than just accusing the Civic Court again of... what, if Scripture violation ? Heresy ? Sin ? |
Shaddam Daphiti
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
25
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 16:10:02 -
[289] - Quote
I too will humbly lend my signature to this.
Much suffering and pain has resulted from allowing a Holy and Sacred rite of passage and guidance to become an economic farce as it has on the open markets.
The actions of the Witch Nauplius, whose attempts at sorcery earn him that title, are testament enough that we have strayed from the design of The Most Holy.
It is long since time this was corrected, Amen. |
Sinti Vailatti
Royal Khanid Colonial Exploration
19
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 16:55:28 -
[290] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Sinjin Mokk wrote:Ms. Vailatti's quote is older, but it is authentic. You may say it's wrong if you like but I'm not going to suggest a Grand Inquisitor does not know what he's talking about in an open forum. Until the Order or the Council redacts and clarifies the issue further I'm going to work under the assumption that they know what they're talking about. I haven't said that the honorable grand inquisitor's statement is wrong. What I have said is the fact that things are as he has said goes against the divine rights of Holders as written in Scripture, and that this should be rectified.
"... this should be rectified."
Um...that's actually saying he's wrong dear.
Including everything you've said beforehand.
We're a lot alike. So take the protip. Nod, smile and keep your opinions off GalNet.
I think we can agree that CONCORD's view of slavery is wrong. When people start saying the Empire is wrong with it is how people end up in a cleansing pit.
Until such a time as the King or Empress says otherwise, the treaties involved were signed for a reason and we must publicly support that 'k? |
|
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Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
381
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 17:11:59 -
[291] - Quote
Hmm, I wonder, who's sockpuppet is this? Or potentially third-leg sleeve, for that matter. It smells a little too much like someone... familiar. |
Goldfinch
House Rkard
248
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 17:27:16 -
[292] - Quote
Sinti Vailatti wrote:Um...that's actually saying he's wrong dear.
We respectfully point out that your tone, Ms. Valatti seems uncomfortably close to being disrespectful.
Some of the legal interpretations in this conversation cause us to shudder. We will attempt to offer our amicus opinion instead:
1. The Scripture is very clear about Holders and Holders alone having the right to own slaves. "Own" in this case, is finishing a business transaction at the end of which one comes to legally assume claim of property.
2. The Ministry of Internal Order statement is not rewriting Scripture. In fact, neither the MIO nor the Inquisitor has the authority to rewrite Scripture at all, Scripture which quite literally backs our Statement One. As the faithful, we would be forced to question any interpretation that extends the right of slave ownership to non-Holders, even an interpretation made surreptitiously by the MIO.
3. The Empire's entrance into CONCORD requires certain civic policies that The Empress, and by extension the Ministry must declare as law. This is exactly what Grand Inquisitor Omel is stating. If he was interpreting Scripture, he would have clearly stated so, thus it is our conclusion that he is not discussing a Scriptural matter at all.
4. The Amarr need not offer any apologies for having a more narrow and conservative view of Scripture and Theological Law. Lieutenant Kernher's view is the classic Amarr view on the matter, and this type of belief withstands any Inquisitory scrunity by benefit of its own piety.
The open rules about SCC transactions is a legal burden to bear by The Empress and The Ministry, but it does not mean that CONCORD membership for Empire comes with no moral cost. The moral cost is that we would have to avert our eyes from Scripture to accept the legality of the SCC. We are not sure why this point is under debate at all.
veiled and bound
my origin story (on R109)
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Ashlar Vellum
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
202
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 17:34:01 -
[293] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:Sinti Vailatti wrote:Ok, granted I've been out of the loop for a few years.
Given my previous status as a slave of the Empire, I would like to just put here the last official statement I remember from the Ministry of Internal Order:
"1) It is not illegal for capsuleers to transport slaves as cargo within the Empire.
2) It is not illegal for Holders to place their slaves on the open market within the Empire.
3) The SCC-controlled and maintained interstellar marketplace is considered a legal open market by the Empire due to CONCORD treaties.
4) It is not illegal for individuals of all social standing within the Empire to purchase goods and services off an open market.
5) The SCC does not mandate any restrictions based on social standing on any transactions that occur on its interstellar marketplace.
"I can only comment on the base legality of the situation, but am unable to provide commentary on the social, moral, or ethical implications of capsuleers of non-Holder birth who own slaves." -Grand Inquisitor Ohrud Omel.
Quoted with all due respects. Apologies if I've missed any official Imperial change since this was written (YC: 115).
If you have a problem with Slavery and open markets, take it up with CONCORD. Amarr doesn't hold a monopoly on the market and every other government signed off on this.
It should also be noted that slavery is different in Khanid, but the above regulations with the SCC are equally binding.
This sounds more and more and more like legal loopholes created from the Empire's association with CONCORD. I fully endorse the SCC markets as a wealth generating and growth supporting enterprise, but in the matter of the sale of slaves that really should be taken off the SCC markets and out of the hands of people like Nauplius. A re-evaluation of the Empire's treaties and relationship with CONCORD might be in order to prevent this practice from continuing, but that is for our betters to initiate.
Indeed.
A few years back there was this big so-called "contract" between interBus and CONCORD with quite peculiar loophole in there. It doesn't need to be explained how it all ended and who is getting all those transaction tax money now. Wasn't the first time CONCORD is playing this two-faced game and it won't be the last if there is no one to stop them.
And about our betters, remember what happened in YC117.05.29 and ask yourself why should we honor treaties that were built on deceit and with such entity? Our betters already lead us by example we just have to follow in their footsteps.
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Aeon Amadii
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
31
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 17:44:05 -
[294] - Quote
I wonder what the IGS would debate about if slavery were not... a thing...
On the one hand you have the practicioners of a maladjusticed sense of social justice and on the other you have these abnormal Amarrians who apparently find great value in not having to mop their own floors. It's an endless debate really and of course I have no weight on either side but I am greatly amused at the thought of what could replace the infinite topic generator that is indentured servitude...
Who knows, maybe we'd actually get some real world problems ironed out.
(This character is the Eve version of Aeon Amadi since there is no cross-forum support)
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Sinjin Mokk
Royal Khanid Colonial Exploration
501
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 18:29:39 -
[295] - Quote
My associate, Ms. Vailatti and I have tried to be respectful of the positions and friendships we share with those who have posted in this thread.
So let me speak in a plainer tone.
This is not the decadent Federation where all are alleged to be equal. This is not the corrupt Republic where your status as an elder means you're somehow more wise than someone who is younger. This is not Curse where "right" is measured by "force." This is not even the State where you are judged on your merits.
This is Amarr. The Empire. For good or ill, the Empire has made certain laws and treaties with CONCORD. So too, has the Kingdom of Khanid. Your opinions do not matter. Your petitions do not matter. Your interpretation of Scripture does not matter. Your feelings do not matter. Fairness does not matter. Justice does not matter. Pride does not matter.
The only thing that matters is your obedience.
The MIO has stated emphatically the Empire's position on slavery. I see no sign of a change in that position.
I have previously pointed out the legal differences between the Kingdom and the Empire and made mention of how slavery is done in the lawless reaches of NullSec. There is no indication that these systems will change either.
Challenge the rot that is CONCORD all you want.
Obey Amarr.
Dark Amarr: Rumors!
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2208
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 18:37:49 -
[296] - Quote
I will repeat, this is not an interpretation of Scripture. Scripture very clearly defines the rights of Holders, which includes the sole ownership of slaves.
I obey Amarr. I obey God. Amarr's law, and God's law, is dictated in Scripture, and Scripture comes before all other things.
"The word of the Empress is the word of God, the will of the Empress is the will of God. Let no man seek to shirk his obligations before God and His chosen representative in this world."
-- Datna Jesebel, Principal Clerk of the Theology Council
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Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
2402
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 18:44:00 -
[297] - Quote
A voice for the voiceless,
a champion for serf;
A chain for the chainless,
arbiter of worth;
A sin for the sinless,
disruption of birth;
A heart for the heartless
at heaven and hearth.
In standing, kneel;
Unyielding, feel;
In flying, bind;
Uncaring, kind.
Your answer and mine are mostly the same,
They're kindred in spirit but differ in name. |
Ashlar Vellum
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
203
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 19:23:09 -
[298] - Quote
Scripture does come before all other things.
So, my apologies 2nd lieutenant for pointing this out, but there is also a passage in scripture about code of demeanor which states "Be Careful. Be Watchful. Be Respectful". Most obvious question comes to mind, the faithful who are pushing this petition so vigorously are you being careful or watchful or maybe you are being respectful with all of this?
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Aeon Amadii
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
32
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 20:04:25 -
[299] - Quote
Sinjin Mokk wrote:My associate, Ms. Vailatti and I have tried to be respectful of the positions and friendships we share with those who have posted in this thread.
So let me speak in a plainer tone.
This is not the decadent Federation where all are alleged to be equal. This is not the corrupt Republic where your status as an elder means you're somehow more wise than someone who is younger. This is not Curse where "right" is measured by "force." This is not even the State where you are judged on your merits.
This is Amarr. The Empire. For good or ill, the Empire has made certain laws and treaties with CONCORD. So too, has the Kingdom of Khanid. Your opinions do not matter. Your petitions do not matter. Your interpretation of Scripture does not matter. Your feelings do not matter. Fairness does not matter. Justice does not matter. Pride does not matter.
The only thing that matters is your obedience.
The MIO has stated emphatically the Empire's position on slavery. I see no sign of a change in that position.
I have previously pointed out the legal differences between the Kingdom and the Empire and made mention of how slavery is done in the lawless reaches of NullSec. There is no indication that these systems will change either.
Challenge the rot that is CONCORD all you want.
Obey Amarr.
Now here's a man with a legitimate argument, one that I appreciate fully except for one consideration. Where does the Empire obtain their umm... 'slaves' as it were..? Is it from within the Empire? And to that extent, where does the Empire's boundaries begin to feather? At what point does it stop being "This is Amarr. The Empire." and the rights and establishments of other sovereign nations who strictly oppose indentured servitude begin to take over?
See, I'm all for cultural diversity. I'm even cool with a bit of slavery, provided it's written into whatever slack-jawed charter or constitution crazy people come up with and it's on their own turf. What I'm not cool with is this sort of hamfisted attempt to exercise that logic as if the Amarr want to go around claiming worlds all nimbly bimbly. You want to own slaves on your own worlds? Fine by me, but when you start to say "This is the Empire" and that feelings, justice, pride, - yadda yadda - don't matter, as if your golden regime overshadows the rest of humanity... Yeah, I might have a problem.
(This character is the Eve version of Aeon Amadi since there is no cross-forum support)
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1021
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 01:02:51 -
[300] - Quote
Ashlar Vellum wrote:Scripture does come before all other things.
So, my apologies 2nd lieutenant for pointing this out, but there is also a passage in scripture about code of demeanor which states "Be Careful. Be Watchful. Be Respectful". Most obvious question comes to mind, the faithful who are pushing this petition so vigorously are you being careful or watchful or maybe you are being respectful with all of this?
You know, it's a lot more honest to just say 'I can't argue on the merits so JUST SHUT UP'.
Wastes less time reading, too. |
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Sinjin Mokk
Royal Khanid Colonial Exploration
504
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 02:47:32 -
[301] - Quote
Aeon Amadii wrote:
Now here's a man with a legitimate argument, one that I appreciate fully except for one consideration. Where does the Empire obtain their umm... 'slaves' as it were..? Is it from within the Empire? And to that extent, where does the Empire's boundaries begin to feather? At what point does it stop being "This is Amarr. The Empire." and the rights and establishments of other sovereign nations who strictly oppose indentured servitude begin to take over?
See, I'm all for cultural diversity. I'm even cool with a bit of slavery, provided it's written into whatever slack-jawed charter or constitution crazy people come up with and it's on their own turf. What I'm not cool with is this sort of hamfisted attempt to exercise that logic as if the Amarr want to go around claiming worlds all nimbly bimbly. You want to own slaves on your own worlds? Fine by me, but when you start to say "This is the Empire" and that feelings, justice, pride, - yadda yadda - don't matter, as if your golden regime overshadows the rest of humanity... Yeah, I might have a problem.
Thank you sir for your...kind words.
And some valid questions.
To be very brief:
The Majority of slaves within the Empire are Minmatar. Most are born into the position. The Empire does make new slaves from prisoners of war and slavery is used as a punishment for criminals. Some Holders buy and sell on the open (SCC) markets. The profession of "Slaver," a person authorized by the Empire to acquire, buy and sell "Controlled Personnel" has waned since the inception of the CONCORD treaties. They still exist and you can still hire them on SCC markets, but mostly these days new Controlled Personnel are taken by the Nobility, high-ranking military figures or high-ranking clergy.
In the interests of your cultural diversity, legal slavery within the Kingdom of Khanid has a few notable differences. First is that we don't border Minmatar space. So we haven't had near as much opportunity to get new stock from the Republic. So, we've had to adapt. That meant taking Controlled Personnel from everywhere else. This has left the Kingdom with a much more diverse slave stock than the Empire. We made many more from prisoners of war or criminals. We use slavers more often and raid into NullSec to acquire new stock.
As in the Empire, Holders are the primary legal owners of slaves. However, the Kingdom is somewhat more liberal with slave ownership, openly allowing non-nobles to own slaves should they be capable of affording them. The SCC treaties helped make this possible. It's rare. Capsuleer ownership is rare too, but gaining popularity.
At what point do the rights of other nations who oppose slavery take over? At the border. CONCORD and local border patrols make sure to levy fines on ships who try to transport Controlled Personnel out of the Empire or in from NullSec.
In the Ammatar Mandate, it's even more weird. Traditionally, the Mandate slave owners were primarily Minmatar. Over the years, especially after more Amarr Holders began living there, it looks a lot more like the Empire proper. There are still Ammatar (Matari) owners, but they are no longer the majority and they've settled into a quiet working relationship with their Amarr neighbors (if you ever want to start a bar fight in Amarr, drop the words "Ammatar Holder" and watch what happens).
Your last point is a can of worms. Amarr Conservatives will tell you exactly that all must be reclaimed. This makes our friends in the State nervous, so they don't usually say it much in mixed company. In that light, the Light of God, Amarr does overshadow the rest of humanity.
The point of it all is that my associates among the Amarr conservatives, those who have argued here the loudest about this petition and how it should be only Holders owning slaves, are correct in their quotations of Scripture, but blind to the realities of the galaxy we live in. Our governments, Amarr and Khanid, signed willingly our treaties with CONCORD, the SCC and the other four (now three) main governments. Traditionally, as much as we follow our Faith and our Scriptures, we should not be questioning the words of our leaders. Especially in public. If they want to go against the Will of the Empire, that's on them. Me? I'll follow my King and my God and the Laws of my People.
Dark Amarr: Rumors!
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Shaddam Daphiti
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
31
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 02:50:21 -
[302] - Quote
Ashlar Vellum wrote:Scripture does come before all other things.
So, my apologies 2nd lieutenant for pointing this out, but there is also a passage in scripture about code of demeanor which states "Be Careful. Be Watchful. Be Respectful". Most obvious question comes to mind, the faithful who are pushing this petition so vigorously are you being careful or watchful or maybe you are being respectful with all of this?
It is careful to see those whose welfare has been given over to Holy Holders are not abused.
It is watchful to see that the intent of The Holy Law is not perverted.
It is respectful to see that though secular law may permit a thing, Divine Law forbids it.
Just because the secular Law says "You may" it does not follow that "You should."
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Natheniel
Mostly Sober
Dead Terrorists
42
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 02:55:12 -
[303] - Quote
Sinjin Mokk wrote:
To be very brief:
You have decieved me for the last time mokk! You hear me? The last time!
"Life is as a storm, one must be prepared for the hardship and scorn. But with in this is a light, one for which we must fight. For hope is our weapon and our dreams are our shield. When fully armed we can not be felled from the field."
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Sinjin Mokk
Royal Khanid Colonial Exploration
505
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 03:09:28 -
[304] - Quote
Natheniel wrote:Sinjin Mokk wrote:
To be very brief:
You have decieved me for the last time mokk! You hear me? The last time!
There was no deception. That was the very brief version.
Dark Amarr: Rumors!
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The Leopardess
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
20
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 03:10:33 -
[305] - Quote
Oh for goodness sakes, the Caldari State treats their employees worse than my family treats its slaves. I hardly think they would find the Reclamation that bad. Anyways in my opinion they're already slaves to Amarr. I can't imagine life without Caldari technology. Sometimes micromanaging is not management at all.
As for the scriptures and Holders, it also states that one should obey one's betters. I find that if the Holders or the Heirs want their subjects to own slaves, such as my Mother, God bless her with long life, and His Holiness King Khanid II, Lord of the Marches, may the Lord grant him strength, then who are we lessers to argue with them?
I would like to point out that my family immediately obeyed her Holiness Jamyl Sarum's edict on 9th generation slaves gladly, and provided them with transport to the Republic if they wished or a home and a job in the constellation they grew up in. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2219
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 04:09:38 -
[306] - Quote
The Leopardess wrote:I think many more economically minded people above me realize it would be a bureaucratic disaster and stifle progress.
So, more of the liberal cancer that plagues Amarr.
God does not care how fat one's wallet is. One cannot buy their way into Heaven.
"Remember where you came from. Be you a freed slave, a descendant of slaves, a merchant, a Navy officer, a Holder, or even royalty, it is paramount to remember the roots of the faith. All men are created to serve God and do His will. It is not merely time served that shall be rewarded, but the conviction and faith with which you serve."
- His Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
"The word of the Empress is the word of God, the will of the Empress is the will of God. Let no man seek to shirk his obligations before God and His chosen representative in this world."
-- Datna Jesebel, Principal Clerk of the Theology Council
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Alizebeth Amalath
Sanctus Amarria
117
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 04:17:14 -
[307] - Quote
I truly hate that I cannot go on a religious retreat anymore without having to check and see what is happening back home. However, I will say that so far, Samira might as well be posting from my own talking points.
Except the whip not chip slogan. That is not mine. Though, I do feel that all slaves should be treated in such a manner as to reclaim them for God so that one day they, or their descendants will serve God as free subjects of the Empire. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1024
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 04:23:43 -
[308] - Quote
The Leopardess wrote:A whole lot of utter tripe and arrogance.
How screwed up do you have to be where you start making Nauplius look sensible and MiniLuv seem like a humanitarian organization? |
The Leopardess
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
22
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 05:40:00 -
[309] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:The Leopardess wrote:A whole lot of utter tripe and arrogance. How screwed up do you have to be where you start making Nauplius look sensible and MiniLuv seem like a humanitarian organization?
Not screwed up enough to deny the Empress and threaten to kill the faithful for not bending to some nullsec tyrant's will.
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The Leopardess
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
22
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 05:56:59 -
[310] - Quote
Alizebeth Amalath wrote:I truly hate that I cannot go on a religious retreat anymore without having to check and see what is happening back home. However, I will say that so far, Samira might as well be posting from my own talking points.
Except the whip not chip slogan. That is not mine. Though, I do feel that all slaves should be treated in such a manner as to reclaim them for God so that one day they, or their descendants will serve God as free subjects of the Empire.
Oh good I'm glad you are willing to take credit for all of her work, now we all can see who is behind her belligerent anti-slavery and anti-authority behavior instead of blaming the poor creature.
I am grateful that I attend a church where slave whipping techniques are still taught to youngsters at religious lessons and mortification of the flesh is considered to be holy still.
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Alizebeth Amalath
Sanctus Amarria
117
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 06:02:51 -
[311] - Quote
I am neither anti slavery nor anti authority. I believe that slaves should be owned and cared for by holders and duly appointed custodians and not random capsuleers who intend sacrifice them en mass as part of some Sani Sabik ritual. |
The Leopardess
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
22
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 06:19:43 -
[312] - Quote
Alizebeth Amalath wrote:I am neither anti slavery nor anti authority. I believe that slaves should be owned and cared for by holders and duly appointed custodians and not random capsuleers who intend sacrifice them en mass as part of some Sani Sabik ritual.
Yes, yes, always with the deference to Holders. Well I am not a Holder, but I might be someday, and I certainly handle Holder business already, and I am here to say that this petition does not help Holders, slaves or the precious few trained slave handlers we have left.
And it most certainly does not prevent slaves from ending up in the hands of the Blood Raiders. I mean, how do you think taking slaves OUT of the Amarr Empire protects them?
These are matters of sin. It is much worse for a slave to be rescued and sent to battle against us than it is for a Blood Raider to slay them, for then at least they are a martyr to the Lord, innocent of blame.
I think this is an abolitionist movement, and I will not change my mind until I see something that makes sense to me. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2220
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 06:26:22 -
[313] - Quote
The Leopardess wrote:anti-slavery
We are not anti-slavery. What we are opposed to are the liberal business practices and free market economies that you promote.
We who are fighting for this are in favor of regulation, restoration of traditional values, and upholding of Scriptural law. We are pro-slavery.
Quote:I am grateful that I attend a church where slave whipping techniques are still taught to youngsters at religious lessons and mortification of the flesh is considered to be holy still.
I have been whipped and beaten for when I have failed to uphold my obligations. I have scars both overseer- and self-inflicted to prove my faith and punish my transgressions.
I am grateful to have been born in a place where Scriptural law is upheld above all other things. I am blessed to have been born in His Highness the Heir Ardishapur's demesne, where I could be brought up in accordance with God's will.
I am very grateful that I was not raised in a place where material interests are placed above spiritual pursuits.
"The word of the Empress is the word of God, the will of the Empress is the will of God. Let no man seek to shirk his obligations before God and His chosen representative in this world."
-- Datna Jesebel, Principal Clerk of the Theology Council
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Alizebeth Amalath
Sanctus Amarria
117
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 06:36:18 -
[314] - Quote
The Leopardess wrote:
I think this is an abolitionist movement, and I will not change my mind until I see something that makes sense to me.
Then you need to read more closely. The SCC markets are only for capsuleers. Holders have other ways of buying slaves. I will use short sentences to make this clear.
Capsuleers not holders can now buy slaves. Capsuleers can do what they want with slaves. Capsuleers take the slaves to the Republic. Capsuleers sacrifice the slaves to the Sani Sabik God. Capsuleers use slaves for their own sexual gratification. Capsuleers operate outside of God's Light. Capsuleers do not have Theology Council oversight. Slaves should be protected from capsuleers. Only Holders should own slaves. Holders that are capsuleers have other ways of buying slaves.
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2220
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 06:36:20 -
[315] - Quote
The Leopardess wrote:I mean, how do you think taking slaves OUT of the Amarr Empire protects them?
These are matters of sin. It is much worse for a slave to be rescued and sent to battle against us than it is for a Blood Raider to slay them, for then at least they are a martyr to the Lord, innocent of blame.
You do realize that the SCC's practices are what allows slaves to be taken out of Amarr and sent to battle against us? Every slave that is purchased by a foreigner is a slave that is taken out of Amarr and into the hands of those who have no right to hold them and no fealty to Amarr or God.
"The word of the Empress is the word of God, the will of the Empress is the will of God. Let no man seek to shirk his obligations before God and His chosen representative in this world."
-- Datna Jesebel, Principal Clerk of the Theology Council
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Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1322
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 09:12:22 -
[316] - Quote
Aeon Amadii wrote:
Now here's a man with a legitimate argument, one that I appreciate fully except for one consideration. Where does the Empire obtain their umm... 'slaves' as it were..? Is it from within the Empire? And to that extent, where does the Empire's boundaries begin to feather? At what point does it stop being "This is Amarr. The Empire." and the rights and establishments of other sovereign nations who strictly oppose indentured servitude begin to take over?
See, I'm all for cultural diversity. I'm even cool with a bit of slavery, provided it's written into whatever slack-jawed charter or constitution crazy people come up with and it's on their own turf. What I'm not cool with is this sort of hamfisted attempt to exercise that logic as if the Amarr want to go around claiming worlds all nimbly bimbly. You want to own slaves on your own worlds? Fine by me, but when you start to say "This is the Empire" and that feelings, justice, pride, - yadda yadda - don't matter, as if your golden regime overshadows the rest of humanity... Yeah, I might have a problem.
As far as I know Heideran VII edict on slaver raids outside of Empire borders is still followed.
It is a bit unclear on the side of the Khanid Kingdom, which has until recently been in a cold war state with the Empire and never followed that edict... Especially considering the shortage of slaves they had constantly to face. However, I am not sure to what extents the Kingdom can legally pursue slave raids outside of its territory with all the current Yulai regulations in place.
I would be interested to know more!
Sinjin Mokk wrote:
In the Ammatar Mandate, it's even more weird. Traditionally, the Mandate slave owners were primarily Minmatar. Over the years, especially after more Amarr Holders began living there, it looks a lot more like the Empire proper. There are still Ammatar (Matari) owners, but they are no longer the majority and they've settled into a quiet working relationship with their Amarr neighbors (if you ever want to start a bar fight in Amarr, drop the words "Ammatar Holder" and watch what happens).
If I may sir,
The first slave owners in the Ammatar Mandate were True Amarr Holders, most often vassals or lords that got offered opportunities over new lands in Derelik and Heimatar (especially in the Ani constellation, old home and citadel of the Nefantar) when the Empire eventually annexed most of the old Minmatar Empire.
It was an elegant and classic way to get rid of annoying or rival nobles, or to reward the most worthy. It is not unheard of military commoners that took advantage of the social leverage that the Amarr Navy can provide to also be rewarded in this promised land.
Later, the Minmatar Rebellion happened and most Amarr Holders, some of whom where already operating by proxies, panicked and fled the Heimatar and Derelik regions. They still ruled over huge swaths of lands, but de facto, their power was relegated to their Ammatar overseers. Most of the Ammatar Mandate slaves were then ruled by Sanmatari commoners and zealous converts or opportunists that created out of this situation very powerful aristocratic families that still constitute today a great part of the oligarchic social strata of the Mandate.
The fact that they reign over slaves without true Scripture approval is problematic in that their practices remained tolerated by the Empire as proxies for their liege Holders during the Rebellion, and continued to be so after when most links were severed and left them alone in possession of their slave stocks and lands. It is also problematic for them since while they remain acknowledged for their deeds when they remained the sole social stalwarts of the Mandate during the Rebellion, they can not by Scripture law acquire new slaves easily, and some have to resort to black market operations to that goal, or SCC sales. This is incidentally one of the reasons that the Mandate is one of the two entities dealing in slave trade over the SCC.
While Ammatar Overseers are called to eventually disappear with the new Ardishapur rule over the Mandate, appointing new Holders among other things, they still remain a strong reality that have to be beckoned with. Their intricate power over the nation here is still consequential. My own family is just an example of those Overseers that did not have the backbone to survive those changing times. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1024
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 14:04:21 -
[317] - Quote
The Leopardess wrote:
Not screwed up enough to deny the Empress and threaten to kill the faithful for not bending to some nullsec tyrant's will.
Silly nutbar. We haven't done either of those.
Deny the Empress? No no, she's the Empress. We've just said she shouldn't be.
Threaten to kill the faithful? Faugh. We haven't threatened to kill anyone.
We've just made an offer. An offer not to kill you if you bend the knee. I mean, you don't threaten to clean up the refuse or use the latrine. But you might offer not to make a mess when you do it.
A threat would indicate there's something else we want, that you can offer. The offer makes it pretty clear it's simply something we're willing to indulge in. |
Sinjin Mokk
Royal Khanid Colonial Exploration
510
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 15:32:17 -
[318] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:
As far as I know Heideran VII edict on slaver raids outside of Empire borders is still followed. However, enslaving PoW is still legal and that is often what happens to TLF and the Minmatar military fighting in the warzone.
It is a bit unclear on the side of the Khanid Kingdom, which has until recently been in a cold war state with the Empire and never followed that edict... Especially considering the shortage of slaves they had constantly to face. However, I am not sure to what extents the Kingdom can legally pursue slave raids outside of its territory with all the current Yulai regulations in place.
I would be interested to know more!
An excellent question.
Khanid is bordered on its Trailing and Coreward sides by Kor-Azor and Tash Murkon. While raiding our cousins there is very illegal, we do trade quite a bit with these two holdings.
Looking Rimward, we are bordered by Catch and Querious. These NullSec systems present a greater danger, but greater profit for those Slavers who are brave enough to venture there.
At the end of our Spinward Marches is the Nav Pipe to Aridia. This is probably my favorite. Khanid leads to Aridia which leads to Delve and the home of Bloody Omir. It's all LowSec and easy to find Bloodraiders.
Slavers, especially those who attach themselves to Capsuleers have even more options. Many Khanid Capsuleers do terms of service for either the 24thIC or the State Protectorate. This gives us the opportunity to raid along the war fronts. While the State frowns on enslavement within it's borders, it isn't unusual for Khanid ships to be allowed to secure their own prisoners of war for transport to the Kingdom.
Wormholes and Thera provide new and exciting opportunities for the truly adventurous.
I hope that sheds more light on how we do things here.
And thanks for the expansion on slavery in the Mandate. As I said, I was trying to be brief. But yes, Matari/Nefantar/Ammatar citizens have been owning and producing their own slaves alongside traditional Holders for quite some time.
Dark Amarr: Rumors!
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Aeon Amadii
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
36
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 16:27:47 -
[319] - Quote
Sinjin Mokk wrote:Aeon Amadii wrote:
Now here's a man with a legitimate argument, one that I appreciate fully except for one consideration. Where does the Empire obtain their umm... 'slaves' as it were..? Is it from within the Empire? And to that extent, where does the Empire's boundaries begin to feather? At what point does it stop being "This is Amarr. The Empire." and the rights and establishments of other sovereign nations who strictly oppose indentured servitude begin to take over?
See, I'm all for cultural diversity. I'm even cool with a bit of slavery, provided it's written into whatever slack-jawed charter or constitution crazy people come up with and it's on their own turf. What I'm not cool with is this sort of hamfisted attempt to exercise that logic as if the Amarr want to go around claiming worlds all nimbly bimbly. You want to own slaves on your own worlds? Fine by me, but when you start to say "This is the Empire" and that feelings, justice, pride, - yadda yadda - don't matter, as if your golden regime overshadows the rest of humanity... Yeah, I might have a problem.
Thank you sir for your...kind words. And some valid questions. To be very brief: The Majority of slaves within the Empire are Minmatar. Most are born into the position. The Empire does make new slaves from prisoners of war and slavery is used as a punishment for criminals. Some Holders buy and sell on the open (SCC) markets. The profession of "Slaver," a person authorized by the Empire to acquire, buy and sell "Controlled Personnel" has waned since the inception of the CONCORD treaties. They still exist and you can still hire them on SCC markets, but mostly these days new Controlled Personnel are taken by the Nobility, high-ranking military figures or high-ranking clergy. In the interests of your cultural diversity, legal slavery within the Kingdom of Khanid has a few notable differences. First is that we don't border Minmatar space. So we haven't had near as much opportunity to get new stock from the Republic. So, we've had to adapt. That meant taking Controlled Personnel from everywhere else. This has left the Kingdom with a much more diverse slave stock than the Empire. We made many more from prisoners of war or criminals. We use slavers more often and raid into NullSec to acquire new stock. As in the Empire, Holders are the primary legal owners of slaves. However, the Kingdom is somewhat more liberal with slave ownership, openly allowing non-nobles to own slaves should they be capable of affording them. The SCC treaties helped make this possible. It's rare. Capsuleer ownership is rare too, but gaining popularity. At what point do the rights of other nations who oppose slavery take over? At the border. CONCORD and local border patrols make sure to levy fines on ships who try to transport Controlled Personnel out of the Empire or in from NullSec. In the Ammatar Mandate, it's even more weird. Traditionally, the Mandate slave owners were primarily Minmatar. Over the years, especially after more Amarr Holders began living there, it looks a lot more like the Empire proper. There are still Ammatar (Matari) owners, but they are no longer the majority and they've settled into a quiet working relationship with their Amarr neighbors (if you ever want to start a bar fight in Amarr, drop the words "Ammatar Holder" and watch what happens). Your last point is a can of worms. Amarr Conservatives will tell you exactly that all must be reclaimed. This makes our friends in the State nervous, so they don't usually say it much in mixed company. In that light, the Light of God, Amarr does overshadow the rest of humanity. The point of it all is that my associates among the Amarr conservatives, those who have argued here the loudest about this petition and how it should be only Holders owning slaves, are correct in their quotations of Scripture, but blind to the realities of the galaxy we live in. Our governments, Amarr and Khanid, signed willingly our treaties with CONCORD, the SCC and the other four (now three) main governments. Traditionally, as much as we follow our Faith and our Scriptures, we should not be questioning the words of our leaders. Especially in public. If they want to go against the Will of the Empire, that's on them. Me? I'll follow my King and my God and the Laws of my People.
Fair enough. I can respect that - you keep to yours, I'll keep to mine. I don't particularly like slavery, seems like a cop-out to me. I'm a particular fan of Caldari Meritocracy so, 'Reclaiming' or not the concept of ownership of another human being to do my dirty work is a bit paltry. Don't get me wrong, my value and compassion for other individuals has waned over the years (dying a few thousand times does that to a person) so that's not at all the reasonings behind my views. I'm just not a fan of laziness, really.
But, I also respect boundaries. You want to enslave your own people, be my guest, but let's just say that if I catch you or yours in Molden Heath trying to pull that number on our worlds... that pod won't save you from what I'll do.
(This character is the Eve version of Aeon Amadi since there is no cross-forum support)
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1024
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 19:00:45 -
[320] - Quote
Aeon Amadii wrote:You want to enslave your own people, be my guest, but let's just say that if I catch you or yours in Molden Heath trying to pull that number on our worlds... that pod won't save you from what I'll do.
Just remember, grounder, you've got to get to the pod. |
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Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
480
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 21:44:55 -
[321] - Quote
1,022,541 Slaves. Purchased not from Imperial markets, but from the vast slave markets of the Angel Cartel.
I do not need Imperial slave markets to glorify God in the destruction of slaves. And these slaves will glorify God in their destruction. Amen. Amarr Victor. |
The Leopardess
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
29
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 22:13:34 -
[322] - Quote
Nauplius wrote:1,022,541 Slaves. Purchased not from Imperial markets, but from the vast slave markets of the Angel Cartel. I do not need Imperial slave markets to glorify God in the destruction of slaves. And these slaves will glorify God in their destruction. Amen. Amarr Victor.
Amarr Victor
Nauplius you need to be trained properly in slave indoctrination techniques otherwise this is a sin. They must be granted the opportunity to have a trial of faith before death. What you are doing is similar to the very early days of the Empire except you are dealing with slaves from the Angel Cartel and we were dealing with slaves from the Khanid.
It's not legal in Amarr proper, you know. I'm not going to quibble too much with your choice of putting them to death because you clearly will not change your mind about it and our best cannot find your clone bays. However, I advise you to take a good course as a slaver through a traditional Amarrian school, then you can at least do this stuff properly.
In this fallen world, nothing is as God intended. It is deeply marred by sin and until Completion comes we must follow the way as closely as possible. Also Crusading must be an act of Love for God's creation and you seem to be fostering only hatred which is irreconcilable. I think that it also polarizes others into thinking that Love cannot be paired with War and Retribution.
This righteous fury of Amarr has been at the heart of our church since the beginning. There were crimes committed back then, just like the ones which you are committing to the history books. But never has such an overwhelming amount of apathy amongst Amarrians been present towards a proper Reclamation effort. I do not think capsuleer opinions represent the will of the people.
The people wanted a Sarum on the throne more than anyone else, and there are very specific reasons for that. And I would like to see reformations in the Crusade to further empower more aggressive capsuleers so that they can have a place in the world of Amarr as God wills it. Also I would see free markets for Amarr. The people of Amarr are chosen by God and they will use the advantages of a free market in the most moral way. Even if one made it illegal to transport slaves across the Caldari border, it would lead to needless hassle for travellers and diplomats who need to take their slaves with them. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1028
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 22:53:42 -
[323] - Quote
The Leopardess wrote:The people wanted a Sarum on the throne more than anyone else, and there are very specific reasons for that.
Like... showing up with a completely inexplicable superweapon to blow up a fleet of enemy ships that'd made the Amarr people feel weak and afraid?
Yep. Reasons. Pure insecure, abject terror, and a fig leaf toward nationalistic pride. That's reasons!
|
The Leopardess
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
31
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 23:36:37 -
[324] - Quote
You clearly do not understand us and until you convert, you will never understand the Amarr people. Be he farmer or soldier, the Amarr people understand War and they understand Vengeance. The Empress speaks to the heart of the people because God is there in them and God is with her. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1032
|
Posted - 2015.08.17 00:28:59 -
[325] - Quote
The Leopardess wrote:You clearly do not understand us and until you convert, you will never understand the Amarr people. Be he farmer or soldier, the Amarr people understand War and they understand Vengeance. The Empress speaks to the heart of the people because God is there in them and God is with her.
Yawwwwn.
Tell you what, chickie, when you've actually seen war, come back and tell me how the simplest Amarr farmer understands it. |
The Leopardess
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
39
|
Posted - 2015.08.17 22:10:00 -
[326] - Quote
You're right I have flown in only a few fleets but I look forward to the day when I have enough experience to meet scum like you in glorious combat. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1052
|
Posted - 2015.08.17 22:21:47 -
[327] - Quote
The Leopardess wrote:You're right I have flown in only a few fleets but I look forward to the day when I have enough experience to meet scum like you in glorious combat.
Be careful what you wish for... |
Arnulf Ogunkoya
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
The 11th Hour Alliance
96
|
Posted - 2015.08.21 19:33:12 -
[328] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:The Leopardess wrote:You're right I have flown in only a few fleets but I look forward to the day when I have enough experience to meet scum like you in glorious combat. Be careful what you wish for...
And the very next day kitty leaves Imperial Dreams for a core holding corporation. Odd.
Is she more likely to go into action against the Imperium in such a place I wonder?
Regards, Arnulf Ogunkoya.
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Remus Vosk
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.08.22 17:00:20 -
[329] - Quote
Not signed.
As much as I respect my Amarr allies and their faith. Nothing should stand in the way of free enterprise and commercial activity. Those who have worked hard to establish their business on the selling and buying of slaves have a right to keep that business and not have it be cut out from under them. Think of how many families are fed, housed, and clothed because of this business. We must not allow those people to end up suffering because of some moral or religious stance. |
Ibrahim Tash-Murkon
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
225
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 06:50:53 -
[330] - Quote
Remus Vosk wrote:Not signed.
As much as I respect my Amarr allies and their faith. Nothing should stand in the way of free enterprise and commercial activity. Those who have worked hard to establish their business on the selling and buying of slaves have a right to keep that business and not have it be cut out from under them. Think of how many families are fed, housed, and clothed because of this business. We must not allow those people to end up suffering because of some moral or religious stance.
While I maintain my opposition to this petition I feel compelled to note that the reasoning behind your stance is poor. Business interests do not usurp the sanctity of the institution of slavery and the fates of individuals in the material world do not undermine their freedom once it has been granted. To be more clear, slaves should not be held because they enrich the owner and slaves must not be kept past spiritual adulthood because their lives are more comfortable while held.
Your conclusion, as I see it, is right. But what value is a right conclusion when built upon false premises?
"I give you the destiny of Faith, and you will bring its message to every planet of every star in the heavens: Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given." - Book of Reclaiming 22:13
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Neph
Operation Meatshield
0
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 06:58:47 -
[331] - Quote
Remus Vosk wrote:Not signed.
As much as I respect my Amarr allies and their faith. Nothing should stand in the way of free enterprise and commercial activity. Those who have worked hard to establish their business on the selling and buying of slaves have a right to keep that business and not have it be cut out from under them. Think of how many families are fed, housed, and clothed because of this business. We must not allow those people to end up suffering because of some moral or religious stance.
As much as I respect the strong fundamentals of the State and those that comprise it, your opinion is bizarrely hypocritical. Limiting the 'purchase' of slaves--people themselves, although many would like to forget that damming fact--is a first step towards abolishing the practice entirely, especially when you're limiting it from us absurdly wealthy capsuleers. "Think of how many families are fed, housed, and clothed"? Think of how many families are born into bondage because of this practice. "We must not allow those people to end up suffering because of some moral or religious stance"? We must not these people to continue suffering because of a business or economic stance.
Signed. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1183
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 08:05:04 -
[332] - Quote
Neph wrote:Limiting the 'purchase' of slaves [...] is a first step towards abolishing the practice entirely, especially when you're limiting it from us absurdly wealthy capsuleers.
Not in this case.
In this case, the intent is to limit the trafficking in slaves to those with theological claims on those people in order to strengthen the institution. Not necessarily to render it beyond criticism - the public opinions of the institution aren't even considered. But this is definitely a petition intended to make slavery healthier, not abolish it. |
The Leopardess
Viziam
Amarr Empire
49
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 11:16:14 -
[333] - Quote
Providence is NRDS, I still work there, some of my factories are still there. The CVA overreached their political and theological authority with me in a very stupid incident I won't repeat here as it is fairly tedious.
But suffice it to say, yes, if the Imperium invaded, which they won't, of course I would stand against them. They are an absurd charade, a mockery of the Empire, a blight on the face of nullsec, a refuge of heretics and infidels.
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Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
575
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 11:40:29 -
[334] - Quote
The Leopardess wrote:The CVA overreached their political and theological authority with me in a very stupid incident I won't repeat here as it is fairly tedious.
That you constantly overreach your political and theological authority in public is much closer to the truth. CVA didn't overreach at all and you're ill advised to try to make them look bad in this: You brought this upon yourself. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1187
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 11:53:09 -
[335] - Quote
The Leopardess wrote:But suffice it to say, yes, if the Imperium invaded, which they won't, of course I would stand against them. They are an absurd charade, a mockery of the Empire, a blight on the face of nullsec, a refuge of heretics and infidels.
Sure you will, kitten. |
The Leopardess
Viziam
Amarr Empire
49
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 11:56:04 -
[336] - Quote
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:The Leopardess wrote:The CVA overreached their political and theological authority with me in a very stupid incident I won't repeat here as it is fairly tedious. That you constantly overreach your political and theological authority in public is much closer to the truth. CVA didn't overreach at all and you're ill advised to try to make them look bad in this: You brought this upon yourself.
I chose to leave. I was asked not to. So yes, I did bring this on myself. Oh my you are a little gossiper arn't you? That the individual overreached was the opinion of the CVA officials to me in closing. You don't even know your neighbors that well do you?
At this rate Max might as well just waltz in and burn it to the ground, you'll all be busy congratulating each other on how much gossip you have to bring to the tea party to bother with combat maneuvers.
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque, more like Societas Imperialis Crustulum Te |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1188
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 12:03:44 -
[337] - Quote
The Leopardess wrote:I chose to leave. I was asked not to. So yes, I did bring this on myself. Oh my you are a little gossiper arn't you? That the individual overreached was the opinion of the CVA officials to me in closing. You don't even know your neighbors that well do you?
At this rate Max might as well just waltz in and burn it to the ground, you'll all be busy congratulating each other on how much gossip you have to bring to the tea party to bother with combat maneuvers.
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque, more like Societas Imperialis Crustulum Te
The only theological authority I recognize is the Theology Council. Are you inventing a new religion or something?
And here we see the mighty kitten seeding the ground so that later she can reap an endless number of rationalizations for why she didn't defend the region... |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2252
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 12:03:58 -
[338] - Quote
Please take this argument somewhere else.
Yonis Ardishapur for Emperor
"Reclaim our Empire"
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1188
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 12:05:20 -
[339] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Please take this argument somewhere else.
Quite right. My apologies, Lieutenant. |
The Leopardess
Viziam
Amarr Empire
49
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 12:38:31 -
[340] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:The Leopardess wrote:I chose to leave. I was asked not to. So yes, I did bring this on myself. Oh my you are a little gossiper arn't you? That the individual overreached was the opinion of the CVA officials to me in closing. You don't even know your neighbors that well do you?
At this rate Max might as well just waltz in and burn it to the ground, you'll all be busy congratulating each other on how much gossip you have to bring to the tea party to bother with combat maneuvers.
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque, more like Societas Imperialis Crustulum Te
The only theological authority I recognize is the Theology Council. Are you inventing a new religion or something? And here we see the mighty kitten seeding the ground so that later she can reap an endless number of rationalizations for why she didn't defend the region...
I'm still docked here, been here for months, and nothing has happened. I go on the combat fleets and nothing has happened. So I'm here and I will fight, cowardice is actually not one of my vices.
Is bloodlust and heresy one of yours? What excuse do you have for threatening the lives of millions of innocent lives down here? Oh it's to find an phantom that doesn't exist. You're treading on very thin ice threatening Amarr's backyard, the Holy Land of God. The excuses are not mine, but yours. First you wanted to invade Providence because of the Empress. Now she's gone - it's about a phantom body...there will always be another excuse for you people.
You know as well as your "Pope" knows that innocents will die and you will forever be hated by the Amarrian people, forever barred from the Kingdom of God and forever damned to live eternally in darkness until you biomass your possibly soulless walking corpse. |
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1213
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 13:14:57 -
[341] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Please take this argument somewhere else.
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The Leopardess
Viziam
Amarr Empire
53
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 17:31:00 -
[342] - Quote
Nice try but I do not take orders from anyone ranking beneath me. You have no answer of course, because there is no correct answer except to apologize to God and submit yourself to his will by leaving Providence alone. Anyone with the Goon, CFC or Imperium related titles beneath their name is damned by God for harassing its people and engaging in war agains the Holy Empire. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1213
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 17:34:02 -
[343] - Quote
I am respecting the wishes of someone who has earned my respect through her continued and active presence on-field both in the warzone and as a Guardian pilot during multiple Drifter attacks.
Kindly do the same. You and I can have this discussion in another thread if you like... in about... call it two hours? |
Alizebeth Amalath
Sanctus Amarria
134
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 18:22:38 -
[344] - Quote
This is neither the time or the place. I have requested this thread closed. This issue remains important, but has been overshadowed by events. |
ISD FlowingSpice
ISD STAR
20
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 00:42:12 -
[345] - Quote
Locked on request. |
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