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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
186
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Posted - 2015.04.17 16:29:30 -
[301] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Bethan Le Troix wrote:Ncc 1709 wrote:my sheets show veldspar at 40m per hour scordite at 50m per hour
where as spodumain is also at 50m per hour, mercoxit is 50m per hour, dark ochre 50m per hour.
before the announcement, abc's were averaging 40m per hour.
this figures are baised on an exhumers 5 hulk with bonuses, no drones or implants.
I don't have any experience of revenue from null-sec mining so I can't comment on your workings for Spodumain, Mercoxit, & Dark Ochre. On the other hand if you actually want to sell your mined materials , even in compressed format which is optimal, you will not get 40 million ISK p/h from mining even Dense Veldspar let alone the standard Veldspar variant. Using an absolute maxed skilled Orca/Hulk combo but without a Michi fitted you are talking 25 million ISK p/h mining Veldspar and Scordite will bring in less than this. Throwing ****** statistics out like those I have quoted from your post above will not get you anywhere. Regarding insider trading I'm reminded of the famous quote from the main character in 'House of Cards'. A lot of stirring GSF forum posts regarding Megacyte & Zydrine price increases came before CCP Fozzies Fanfest announcement that, in all but name, GSF had convinced him to do the announced ore changes in null-sec. I'll leave it up to you to decide if this is the case or not. 1: Are your figures "paper figures" or yield in practice?. Because due to the huge nature of the rocks in nullsec, actual yield is far higher due to barely losing any ore to partial cycles. From a few minutes of EFT, I get 3100 (rounded down from 3139) m3 per minute on a Hulk with one MLU and rorqual boosts, using t2 Veldspar crystals. That's 186,000 m3 per hour of Veldspar if everything was perfect. Using mineral values pulled off of the Cerlestes table for today ( And before you ask, yes accounting for the new not perfect refining efficiency), Veldspar is worth 203 isk per m3 in minerals. Ehh.... 186,000 * 203 = 37.75 million per hour in Trit. Given that Trit prices in nullsec tend to run 10%ish higher, his 40 million per hour is basically correct, if you do not account for human error in losing ore to over-cycling. Which happen far less when the rocks you mine make highsec ones look like pebbles.
Ah. I was coming from a different angle and presumed he was talking about mining Veldspar & Scordite in high sec systems using a max skilled/linked Orca/Hulk combo minus the Michi implant. I didn't mention or mean using a Rorqual in null sec. I thought he was comparing mining revenue between high sec and null sec to try and make out more ISK is made in high sec.
And yes my figures come from yield in practice on other accounts. I don't mine in this dress.
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Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1413
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Posted - 2015.04.17 16:30:49 -
[302] - Quote
Querns wrote:Except that there will be no more veldspar in ore prospecting sites. :V
Unless my numbers are off, new Spodmium results in something like 80% of the Tritanium per m3, along with a decent chunk of Pyerite? RIP Trit, but I'm not too cut up about it.
Bethan Le Troix wrote:Regarding insider trading I'm reminded of the famous quote from the main character in 'House of Cards'. A lot of stirring GSF forum posts regarding Megacyte & Zydrine price increases came before CCP Fozzies Fanfest announcement that, in all but name, GSF had convinced him to do the announced ore changes in null-sec. I'll leave it up to you to decide if this is the case or not.
P.S: On the insider trading suggestion, anyone with a functioning frontal lobe knew it was coming. We currently have massive oversupply of high end minerals. As soon as CCP hinted at any sort of ore changes, anyone who bothered to think about it swiftly came to the conclusion that if the current situation is massive supply, and tiny demand....
The only possible direction for highends was up. That made investing in them very very safe, with huge potential payouts, and no chance of significant loss. If demand didn't rise, stick it back on market. If it does, cash out.
But still. I have stock in a tinfoil company (No ****, I actual do), so if you want to *Tinfoil*, go ahead. |
Durrr
Jita Fajitas
35
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Posted - 2015.04.17 18:21:17 -
[303] - Quote
I still would like to see a reason, any reason, to mine ore in low sec. It's more dangerous than null with much less payoff. In fact the payoff is only marginally better than high sec, with a good deal more risk. |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
106
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Posted - 2015.04.17 18:28:48 -
[304] - Quote
Durrr wrote:I still would like to see a reason, any reason, to mine ore in low sec. It's more dangerous than null with much less payoff. In fact the payoff is only marginally better than high sec, with a good deal more risk.
Yep.
Perhaps offset some of the Nocxium procurement by increasing its yield in LS ores, and lowering in NS ones?
Zydrine increase is good, but Nocx would be better as it is a mid-tier mineral.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
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Sodamn In-sane
Phorever People
4
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Posted - 2015.04.17 18:43:30 -
[305] - Quote
you can poke your revamp,give us back our isboxer for nullsec miners,ban the use of it in pvp only
Fozzie
job change is good but you're still a muppet
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Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2798
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Posted - 2015.04.17 20:12:40 -
[306] - Quote
Sodamn In-sane wrote:you can poke your revamp,give us back our isboxer for nullsec miners,ban the use of it in pvp only Because isboxer has zero effect on the source of the problem attempting to be fixed with this.
Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
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Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2299
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Posted - 2015.04.17 20:58:51 -
[307] - Quote
Sodamn In-sane wrote:you can poke your revamp,give us back our isboxer for nullsec miners,ban the use of it in pvp only You seem to forget that even mining has pvp in it.
So it looks like it's still banned. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1126
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Posted - 2015.04.17 22:04:00 -
[308] - Quote
moon mining should have its own structure not tied too POS/stations in anyway, more like POCO's really
Tech 3's need to be multi-role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists.
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 slots for droneboats
Nerf web strength, Make the blaster eagle worth using
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Tikktokk Tokkzikk
Alekhine's Gun The Periphery
207
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Posted - 2015.04.17 22:08:00 -
[309] - Quote
Durrr wrote:I still would like to see a reason, any reason, to mine ore in low sec. It's more dangerous than null with much less payoff. In fact the payoff is only marginally better than high sec, with a good deal more risk.
The small increase in profitability is quickly removed when you include ship losses and time spent avoiding said ship losses.
I predict lowsec mining would get a boost in popularity similiar to the faction warfare fix if mining suddenly became viable. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2751
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Posted - 2015.04.17 22:52:29 -
[310] - Quote
Querns wrote:Simon Alfrir wrote: I would also ask CCP to investigate the possible insider trading of Zydrine and Megacyte prior to the announcement of these changes being made public. I believe that the there may have been large spikes in the purchases of both minerals before CCP Fozzie went onto Twitch with the initial announcement. Has this been looked into?
There's nothing to investigate. These changes were announced first at Fanfest. You are aware that anyone can watch the Fanfest stream, without going to Iceland, right?
Even if you couldn't, the announcement was made a public event so its not like privileged or confidential information somebody had access to and then profited from it.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2751
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Posted - 2015.04.17 22:59:44 -
[311] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote: I Want to mine in highsec space, that is my chosen profession and game playing region. I in no way expect untold riches or widespread acclaim for doing so but I do expect my already modest income to be kept from going into the toilet.
This discussion is about mining, industrialists, and miners. Not about people that want to do FW, incursions, scamming and all the rest of that irrelevant stuff you are bringing up. If I wanted to do all that other stuff I would not have made a single post in this thread.
This is one of the things I love about this game. You get to see economic theory in action such as supply and demand, and in the case of the above comment, rent seeking. Awesome.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Eodp Ellecon
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
17
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Posted - 2015.04.18 00:46:22 -
[312] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote: Increasing Zydrine and Megacyte consumption in manufacturing. This is a fairly simple change, but it will have some significant effects. As we said on the o7 show, we are doubling the Zydrine and Megacyte consumption of almost all blueprints in the game.
What about the reprocessing values on meta modules? Are you going to adjust those upwards, as well? If not, then T1 modules become even more expensive, relative to low metas - and thus, even less incentive to build/use T1 except as components in T2 module manufacturing. Note that low meta prices tend to be bounded by their reprocessing value, in the majority of cases where the NPC drops and market supply are high (and not being deliberately market manipulated). For most modules, the reprocessing value is already significantly lower than the T1 build cost, making those modules impractical to build, esp. since even the low metas tend to have better stats than T1. Module tiericide has completely failed to address this problem, thus far. This is because NPC's shouldn't drop complete components. They should drop "parts" which are then used in conjunction with T1 components and BPC's acquired from data sites to build meta modules. Then it's really easy to balance the cost of meta modules as you just tweak the supply of parts dropped from rats. The daft thing is, we already have all the items in game (more or less) to do this. There are mechanical parts, electrical parts (all those really low value items in relic/data sites) etc etc. The list is very long. This would fix data sites (as they're currently rubbish) and give a massive expansion to industry.
Gewd Lawd don't make T1 production a logistical charade like T2.
Yes, Data sites loot table still suck and having Jury Rigging or Racial Encryption skill books is prime example. But the number of people who do exploration would never ever keep up with demands. We're talking in this thread about the proportion and activity of mining to the point of trying to encourage it as a viable activity and many, many more people mine than Explore.
Yes module drop value improvement would be nice.
A) Give them mineral buff akin to the new T1 build requirements.
And/or
B) Make meta choices significant and varied, even slightly dramatically so.
While we're at it - one day it would be nice to have Rigs have better stats than modules since they are perma-installled. To keep it in context and ridiculous proposal would be to have T1 Rig as is, meta Rig with better stats (T1 rig + mineral) and all T2 rigs stats should exceed non-deadspace module by 10-15%.
But none of this is out of the realm since EVE-CCP has indicated they'd like players to be able to build Everything in EVE. So some modules (even multiples in combo) down the line are likely to be Faction build requirements. In which case most module drops are 'as is' at the time with a percentage might contain components for Faction builds.
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Eodp Ellecon
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
17
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Posted - 2015.04.18 01:07:51 -
[313] - Quote
Decaneos wrote:Firvain wrote:T3 miner sounds awesome? what will it have more mining power? So making it the best ship to mine and lowering all other ships mining potential coz more minerals coming in while demand stays the same means prices will drop.. You could make it super miner, or you could make dictor nullified cloaky, or combat barge! but not all at the same time ofc, you would have to make that choice as you do with t3 cruisers fitting. thats how i would see them anyways.
I was expressing frustration (due to location or time zone) at the need for Fleet Booster in mining ship choices because mining without one feels really dumb after you've seen the effects of a good booster. So for the person who isn't going to multibox a full fleet or sit in a busy system I was thinking of a mind-link type thing and the T3 was with Strat Cruiser ability to fit links. A deployable would be feasible alternative and easier to adjust.
The Tactical Destroyer model is tempting but you already do that currently by effectively choosing which Barge / Exhumer you field.
While I'm a roll of terrible, how about adding Jump Fatigue reduction bonuses to Barge / Exhumers same as the Industrials. Right now it is a limiting factor in harvesting resources in null systems without stations. |
Rick Witham
United Star Alliance UNITED STAR FEDERATION
0
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Posted - 2015.04.18 02:22:15 -
[314] - Quote
Is it possible to introduce a new way to track the m3 mined so that the pilots in null sec can actually know what m3 has been mined in a system and how much more is needed for a certain level? |
Simon Alfrir
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2015.04.18 04:15:59 -
[315] - Quote
Querns wrote:Simon Alfrir wrote: Again, are you hurting that badly in Nullsec where this change is necessary? I don't mind a little pain if it helps balance things out but I don't think it's needed given all the things you guys already get that we can't use due to CCPs heavy hand. These changes seem far too large and are from my standpoint unnecessary. I don't expect it to add any additional players to Null given the lack of recruitment posts on the board for miners. I've been checking and it's fairly silent unless you want to go with a small outfit and have a big target on your back. Or should we pay up and become renters? That's not my play style at all.
CCP's goal is to reduce the reliance of nullsec on the almighty Jump Freighter, and its reliance on Jita. To do so, more self-sufficiency is required. Nullsec groups tend not to recruit miners because miners don't actively contribute to the defense of an empire. Furthermore, mining is not a particularly difficult thing to train; PvPers will typically train PvE alts or train PvE skills as a secondary objective on their main. Right now, it's also not necessary GÇö a single pilot with 10 JF characters can do the work of hundreds of miners by JFing in compressed ore. Additionally, dedicated industrialists tend to be the worst drama llamas known to eve online (second only to FCs.) Regarding "all the things you guys already get," you vastly underestimate the amount of work and will needed to keep an area of nullsec. You need military power to take and hold space. You need logistical power to deploy and maintain sov structures, and to fuel towers. You need a steady income stream to pay sov bills. (One particular upgrade costs 600m a month to keep online!) You need diplomatic power to maintain good standings with your neighbors and to put out brush fires between members. For all that, you get moderately nicer mining and ratting. If your playstyle is solo, more power to you, but you are playing a game in which cooperation is vastly rewarded. CCP will always reward cooperation over solo play due to its demonstrable effect on retention.
Thanks for the answers. I have no doubt your operational costs are higher. The point I am trying to make is why the changes if nothing is fundamentally broken?
This has the potential of negatively impacting hundreds of new players like myself who are training up skills while at the same time observing things and learning. That is why I'm a solo miner. I'm not into getting into PvP right now because my skills are so low it would not be much of a fight. Fun yes, but it's a waste of resources for me which I don't have. What game do the new players have if they are not the masochistic type and trying to build a strong future?
I'm here to find out the answers to my questions. From what I've read these changes are not necessary. The only reason for them is jump fatigue which is a big failure and hated by virtually all who inhabit Null. It's a carrot to keep you guys going while punishing other players. I thought this game was in a fairly stable position given the amount of time it's been going but changing things like this so radically shows I was wrong. This is not fine tuning the system. It's like trying to fix a watch with a hammer. I'll keep reading and trying to learn but what I am seeing is a lot of hands rubbing together ripe with greed. While I can't blame you, I don't share your excitement.
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Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
586
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Posted - 2015.04.18 04:54:47 -
[316] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:As we said on the o7 show, we are doubling the Zydrine and Megacyte consumption of almost all blueprints in the game. "almost all" isn't the same as "all".
Are you going to pre-release a list of the BPs which will actually be changed (or not changed, whichever is the shorter list, I suppose) before the changes actually go into effect? Certain items, for which Megacyte and Zydrine actually do make up most of the manufacturing cost, will be more significantly affected than items for which the amount of Megacyte and Zydrine is an insignficant percentage. Players who manufacture those items probably would like to know for certain in advance if their cost is going to suddenly double.
A specific list of any changes to reprocessing values on metas would also be welcome, if such is planned. Many players *do* still use reprocessed NPC loot as a source for minerals. Remember that, in high-sec, Megacyte and Zydrine can only be "mined" from reprocessed modules. |
Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1418
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Posted - 2015.04.18 04:58:05 -
[317] - Quote
Simon Alfrir wrote: Thanks for the answers. I have no doubt your operational costs are higher. The point I am trying to make is why the changes if nothing is fundamentally broken?
I think we can agree that upgraded anomalies should be something of value in sov nullsec.
Currently, their primary worth is in the high end minerals that they supply, which can then be transported to highsec for sale. Even with this though, the rocks are only marginally higher than highsec rocks in value.
This is because for every m3 of highend rock you mine, someone has to mine (demonstration number, no promise of accuracy) nine times as much veldspar in order to achieve the correct mix for manufacturing.
Consider the following (Bill Nye impression): If there is no importing of bulk lowend minerals to nullsec (once they nerf the JF), how valuable to local production is anomaly which only spawns highends?
Highend only anomalies are like diamond mines: What comes out of them is not very useful at the mine, but if you take it somewhere else, people give you enough money to pay for importing all the food and paying the workers, and maintaining the infrastructure.
If one day, food imports became impossible, the workers at the diamond mine suddenly to spend 90% of their time growing food/maintaining infrastructure and 10% of their time mining diamonds.
In our case, under the current anomalies and production values, nullsec miners would spend 10% of the time mining highends, and 90% of their time stripping belts for Veld and Scordite.
So how useful is a series of upgraded respawning anomalies where all the ore in it has a near infinite supply, barely any demand, and is easier to harvest than Veldspar and thus actually less valuable than Veldspar?
If you answered "Not much", you would be correct.
TLDR: It's not broken now, but if CCP were to nerf JF's (which they have outright said they will do), it would be completely broken. This change is one of the prerequisites to them nerfing the JF. |
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
227
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Posted - 2015.04.18 05:38:27 -
[318] - Quote
Querns wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote:CCP you should compensate highsec ore so our real income doesn't drop Hi, highsec incursions called. This thread is about miners, if I wanted to do something else I would. Btw, it is my firm belief that both incursions and FW need a serious ISK / hr nerf. When significant numbers of people from wormholes, low and null come to high to make their ISK there is a serious problem.
Highsec ISK should always validly be in a place such that the term meaningful but moderate applies. Mining currently barely justifies this classification hence my defense of highsec mining income.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
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Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
227
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Posted - 2015.04.18 05:50:29 -
[319] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote: I Want to mine in highsec space, that is my chosen profession and game playing region. I in no way expect untold riches or widespread acclaim for doing so but I do expect my already modest income to be kept from going into the toilet.
This discussion is about mining, industrialists, and miners. Not about people that want to do FW, incursions, scamming and all the rest of that irrelevant stuff you are bringing up. If I wanted to do all that other stuff I would not have made a single post in this thread. And you arrived at the conclusion that what you do, unlike every other activity in the game, was a protected activity where CCP was not allowed to make changes that could negative impact your income.... Why again? I'm honestly curious. Your chosen profession in game is the most reactive portion of the economy in terms of supply and demand, yet you believe that you should be exempt from changes in supply and demand if they would negatively effect you. Before Nullsec started churning out supercaps by the hundreds, Tritanium hovered at 3.5 ish isk per unit, and Pyerite at 7. As of a week or two ago, Trit was at almost 6, and Pyerite at 13. You might not like it, but the fact is that you have been living fat off of an unnatural level of demand for Trit for years. Unnatural in that sooner or later, CCP was going to do something to stop it, and mineral prices would sink back towards pre-demand levels. So if your income drops by 1/3, it's not that CCP has a mad on for you, it's simply that the changes to nullsec canceled your food stamps, and you actually have to rely on more local market demand to drive demand. I never said I was entitled to anything. Is not your self righteous crowd always moaning on and on like two year olds about how highsec players should stand up for themselves? My repeated posts in this forum is just that. Fighting for how I play the game and where I choose to play it.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
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Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
227
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Posted - 2015.04.18 06:30:14 -
[320] - Quote
Querns wrote:Simon Alfrir wrote: Again, are you hurting that badly in Nullsec where this change is necessary? I don't mind a little pain if it helps balance things out but I don't think it's needed given all the things you guys already get that we can't use due to CCPs heavy hand. These changes seem far too large and are from my standpoint unnecessary. I don't expect it to add any additional players to Null given the lack of recruitment posts on the board for miners. I've been checking and it's fairly silent unless you want to go with a small outfit and have a big target on your back. Or should we pay up and become renters? That's not my play style at all.
CCP's goal is to reduce the reliance of nullsec on the almighty Jump Freighter, and its reliance on Jita. To do so, more self-sufficiency is required. Nullsec groups tend not to recruit miners because miners don't actively contribute to the defense of an empire. Furthermore, mining is not a particularly difficult thing to train; PvPers will typically train PvE alts or train PvE skills as a secondary objective on their main. Right now, it's also not necessary GÇö a single pilot with 10 JF characters can do the work of hundreds of miners by JFing in compressed ore. Additionally, dedicated industrialists tend to be the worst drama llamas known to eve online (second only to FCs.) Regarding "all the things you guys already get," you vastly underestimate the amount of work and will needed to keep an area of nullsec. You need military power to take and hold space. You need logistical power to deploy and maintain sov structures, and to fuel towers. You need a steady income stream to pay sov bills. (One particular upgrade costs 600m a month to keep online!) You need diplomatic power to maintain good standings with your neighbors and to put out brush fires between members. For all that, you get moderately nicer mining and ratting. If your playstyle is solo, more power to you, but you are playing a game in which cooperation is vastly rewarded. CCP will always reward cooperation over solo play due to its demonstrable effect on retention.
We in nullsec despite having ludicrous amounts of ISK will trump on about or need for even more ridiculous amounts ISK because CCP buys this load of crap so why not keep on using it.
Oh, almost forgot about the miners are recruited because they don't contribute to defense and industrials are whiny. What you meant was you cannot stop your impulsive need to shoot defenseless ships and are incompetent at running a corporation. Btw, those ships you are defending your "space-farm" could be made by the industrials you cannot competently manage and the miners you refuse to recruit.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
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Theo Sotken
Mother Knows Best Corporation
35
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Posted - 2015.04.18 06:46:42 -
[321] - Quote
Querns wrote:I found your problem -- trying to mine exact ratios of minerals to build things is probably one of the worst economic bargains in Eve. You are deliberately wasting your own time just to make the numbers line up. Instead, mine the most lucrative thing you can, then sell your excess for cash, and use the cash to buy the minerals you lack. Freight is cheap and syndicate is very close to empire shipping lanes.
Remember, money can be traded for goods and services.
Rather than do that why not just get CCP to change the proportions of the minerals within the ores? Or you could even get them to change the mineral content for the blueprints?
Eve use to be a sandbox. Nowadays it seems to be going down the push button for candy route.
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Spugg Galdon
Nisroc Angels
660
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Posted - 2015.04.18 07:27:15 -
[322] - Quote
Eodp Ellecon wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:
This is because NPC's shouldn't drop complete components. They should drop "parts" which are then used in conjunction with T1 components and BPC's acquired from data sites to build meta modules. Then it's really easy to balance the cost of meta modules as you just tweak the supply of parts dropped from rats. The daft thing is, we already have all the items in game (more or less) to do this. There are mechanical parts, electrical parts (all those really low value items in relic/data sites) etc etc. The list is very long.
This would fix data sites (as they're currently rubbish) and give a massive expansion to industry.
Gewd Lawd don't make T1 production a logistical charade like T2. Yes, Data sites loot table still suck and having Jury Rigging or Racial Encryption skill books is prime example. But the number of people who do exploration would never ever keep up with demands. We're talking in this thread about the proportion and activity of mining to the point of trying to encourage it as a viable activity and many, many more people mine than Explore. Yes module drop value improvement would be nice. A) Give them mineral buff akin to the new T1 build requirements. And/or B) Make meta choices significant and varied, even slightly dramatically so. While we're at it - one day it would be nice to have Rigs have better stats than modules since they are perma-installled. To keep it in context and ridiculous proposal would be to have T1 Rig as is, meta Rig with better stats (T1 rig + mineral) and all T2 rigs stats should exceed non-deadspace module by 10-15%. But none of this is out of the realm since EVE-CCP has indicated they'd like players to be able to build Everything in EVE. So some modules (even multiples in combo) down the line are likely to be Faction build requirements. In which case most module drops are 'as is' at the time with a percentage might contain components for Faction builds.
This wouldn't create a logistical nightmare for T1 meta production. It would actually solve the stupid supply and demand balance we have now. In my proposal, not rats would drop "parts" equal to the amount required to build the meta module they would have dropped. These parts would be used in combination of a T1 module plus BPC gained from a data site to build the meta module desired. As the meta modules would share "common" parts what you build would be almost entirely your choice provided you have the BPC. Different sized Meta modules would all be built from the same parts pool and just require more (similar to current T1 production with minerals).
This would allow the value of meta modules to be controlled easily as it would simply be T1 module + parts + BPC = meta module
The supply of parts would be the same as the current supply of meta modules (harvested from looting wrecks).
Would this not give us a real way to produce meta modules, buff data sites to be damn right useful, and buff industry as a whole? The BPC's of meta modules would be high run copies to prevent bottle necks.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1097
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Posted - 2015.04.18 08:50:41 -
[323] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:
This wouldn't create a logistical nightmare for T1 meta production. It would actually solve the stupid supply and demand balance we have now. In my proposal, not rats would drop "parts" equal to the amount required to build the meta module they would have dropped. These parts would be used in combination of a T1 module plus BPC gained from a data site to build the meta module desired. As the meta modules would share "common" parts what you build would be almost entirely your choice provided you have the BPC. Different sized Meta modules would all be built from the same parts pool and just require more (similar to current T1 production with minerals).
This would allow the value of meta modules to be controlled easily as it would simply be T1 module + parts + BPC = meta module
The supply of parts would be the same as the current supply of meta modules (harvested from looting wrecks).
Would this not give us a real way to produce meta modules, buff data sites to be damn right useful, and buff industry as a whole? The BPC's of meta modules would be high run copies to prevent bottle necks.
I've proposed the same thing before but from a buffing explo and industry direction. If people still want to refine something let them grind up the parts instead. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1601
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Posted - 2015.04.18 12:23:00 -
[324] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
We in nullsec despite having ludicrous amounts of ISK will trump on about or need for even more ridiculous amounts ISK because CCP buys this load of crap so why not keep on using it.
Oh, almost forgot about the miners aren't recruited because they don't contribute to defense and industrials are whiny comment.
What you meant was you cannot stop your impulsive need to shoot defenseless industrial ships and are incompetent at running a corporation.
Btw, those ships you are using to defend your "space-farm" could be made by the industrials you cannot competently manage and the miners you refuse to recruit.
You're pretty uninformed about the nature of nullsec isk making. Mining is what we call "bottom-up isk," which means that line members keep the bulk of the isk made and only a small amount is reaped by the alliance through taxation. This isk is mostly just to offset the 80b isk each it costs to raise up nullsec refineries and manufacturing outposts.
You're also wrong about recruiting industrialists and miners. There's no need to recruit individuals who only do industry or mining because PVPers have alts that can do the job just as well. A dedicated industry main offers zero advantage over a PVPer's alt. The usufruct of our space is reserved only to assist PVPers in making money so they can continue to contribute militarily.
Hell GÇö I am a nullsec industrialist on my alts. I make fuel blocks with local materials and take part in the T2 production chain. However, unlike a dedicated industrialist, I also have a supercarrier which is currently deployed to our warfront, prosecuting and bringing to heel the enemies of the state. To my alliance, I am at once equally effective as a dedicated industrial character and significantly more useful for my military prowess.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Eodp Ellecon
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
17
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Posted - 2015.04.18 17:51:49 -
[325] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote :
"This wouldn't create a logistical nightmare for T1 meta production. It would actually solve the stupid supply and demand balance we have now.
In my proposal, not rats would drop "parts" equal to the amount required to build the meta module they would have dropped. These parts would be used in combination of a T1 module plus BPC gained from a data site to build the meta module desired. As the meta modules would share "common" parts what you build would be almost entirely your choice provided you have the BPC.
Different sized Meta modules would all be built from the same parts pool and just require more (similar to current T1 production with minerals).
This would allow the value of meta modules to be controlled easily as it would simply be T1 module + parts + BPC = meta module
The supply of parts would be the same as the current supply of meta modules (harvested from looting wrecks).
Would this not give us a real way to produce meta modules, buff data sites to be damn right useful, and buff industry as a whole? The BPC's of meta modules would be high run copies to prevent bottle necks."
First, this part of the discussion spun off the fact someone asked if existing modules were going to get a proportionate buff in mineral content as the new specs about to occur - a very valid question.
Second, I think using the terms 'meta module' here in context with T1 causes confusion. With out meaningful development - significant variation of attributes - of the full meta module spread for all modules we put the cart before the horse.
If you are ONLY referring to Faction, Deadspace and Officer modules - I think this is somewhat an eventuality that Exploration and Escalations will be tied to loot drops. If you are talking about anything below T2 then it's just adding complexity to production for the sake of buffing Exploration or mission loot.
While the ore composition rebalance whereby supposed Rare Ores output values had crashed below value of the most common ores in space, even Veldspar - shows a game supply side problem. The module value was an intentional nerf by EVE-CCP by reducing the Scrap Metal skill in half.
It is compounded by peoples disinterest or knowledge as to potential value to modules so they dump them on market creating arbitrage opportunities for Trade. This is not a game supply side problem. It's a problem of interest and time value. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1098
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Posted - 2015.04.18 18:00:22 -
[326] - Quote
Querns wrote: Reading between the lines:
We don't care about dedicated miners and industrialists We view it as a necessary evil We just do what we need to in support of the alliance and couldn't care less otherwise
By this thinking they should have buffed industryin hisec instead where people would actually appreciate the changes! |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2305
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Posted - 2015.04.18 18:24:57 -
[327] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Querns wrote: Reading between the lines:
We don't care about dedicated miners and industrialists We view it as a necessary evil We just do what we need to in support of the alliance and couldn't care less otherwise
By this thinking they should have buffed industryin hisec instead where people would actually appreciate the changes! I'm not sure what lines you're reading between there. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1601
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Posted - 2015.04.18 19:48:56 -
[328] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Querns wrote: Reading between the lines:
We don't care about dedicated miners and industrialists We view it as a necessary evil We just do what we need to in support of the alliance and couldn't care less otherwise
By this thinking they should have buffed industryin hisec instead where people would actually appreciate the changes! Nah. We love industry. We wouldn't have railroaded as much isk into Deklein as we did if we thought industry was bad. It's just that dedicated industrialists add nothing. They don't have some magical, heretofore unobtainable skill amount because anyone can train industrial skills on the alts necessary to have to play this game. They also don't have any secret wisdom to the process because manufacturing is so easy, mechanically speaking. (Thank you Crius!)
Also, what is wrong with wanting to support our alliance? The whole idea of having a player group is to band together for mutual defense and financial gain.
Recruiting dedicated industrialists is basically saying "hey, let's invite a bunch of people whose only ability is to make themselves money, who will flee at the first sign of adversity!"
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
394
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Posted - 2015.04.18 20:15:10 -
[329] - Quote
Rick Witham wrote:Is it possible to introduce a new way to track the m3 mined so that the pilots in null sec can actually know what m3 has been mined in a system and how much more is needed for a certain level?
This sounds like a suggestion for the appropriate Structure thread. Maybe some kind of sensor array mounted on a Mining Platform. |
GetSirrus
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
92
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Posted - 2015.04.18 20:57:39 -
[330] - Quote
Querns wrote:You're also wrong about recruiting industrialists and miners. There's no need to recruit individuals who only do industry or mining because PVPers have alts that can do the job just as well.
Querns wrote:It's just that dedicated industrialists add nothing.
Querns wrote:Nullsec groups tend not to recruit miners because miners don't actively contribute to the defense of an empire.
Currently null has plenty of ore in belts. The lack of mineral supply is a problem they have created for themselves. So why Fozzie, are you giving them what amounts to welfare to a group that are already outrageously wealthy?
How does this mesh with your sov requirement that mining is integral to defense index? Will that also change to fit the players instead of the players needing to adapt? |
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