Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 26 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
12625
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 21:27:57 -
[1] - Quote
Hey everyone. As we mentioned at Fanfest this year we're making some significant changes to mining in our April release, mainly focused on Null Security space.
These changes are intended to make Nullsec more self sufficient then it is currently. We continue to believe that no area of space should be completely independent of any other, but there is a lot of room to make nullsec more self sufficient and improve the opportunities for zero-sec miners and industrialists.
These changes consist of three parts:
- Increasing Zydrine and Megacyte consumption in manufacturing
- Rebalancing the mineral content of the Null and Lowsec focused ores
- Rebalancing the ore content of the mining anomalies generated by the Ore Prospecting Array
Increasing Zydrine and Megacyte consumption in manufacturing. This is a fairly simple change, but it will have some significant effects. As we said on the o7 show, we are doubling the Zydrine and Megacyte consumption of almost all blueprints in the game. This will bring the universe-wide consumption of Zydrine and Megacyte closer to some of the original designs for overall mineral consumption, and will provide a very significant boost to Nullsec (including wormhole) and to a lesser extent Lowsec mining.
Rebalancing the mineral content of the Null and Lowsec focused ores. This is the big set of changes that will enable a more healthy Nullsec mining enviroment. Each of the "Nullsec Ores" will be rebalanced to focus on one main mineral (except for Spodumain which will be more widely distributed between four mineral types). This allows us to adjust the supply of each mineral in Nullsec to bring overall balance closer to the actual mineral consumption from the average industry job. It also makes it much easier for players to decide what ore to mine if they find themselves in need of a specific mineral. We are also making somewhat smaller sets of changes to the "Lowsec Ores" to clean up their mineral spread and increase their value. The following values are for a maximum refine of a batch of each ore type. The upgraded versions of each ore will continue to contain +5% and +10% minerals as they did before. Volumes of each ore are not changing in this pass.
Arkonor:
- Tritanium: 22000
- Mexallon: 2500
- Megacyte: 320
Bistot:
- Pyerite: 12000
- Zydrine: 450
- Megacyte: 100
Crokite:
- Tritanium: 21000
- Nocxium: 760
- Zydrine: 135
Dark Ochre:
- Tritanium: 10000
- Isogen: 1600
- Nocxium: 120
Gneiss:
- Pyerite: 2200
- Mexallon: 2400
- Isogen: 300
Spodumain:
- Tritanium: 56000
- Pyerite: 12050
- Mexallon: 2100
- Isogen: 450
Mercoxit:
- Morphite: 300
Hedbergite:
- Pyerite: 1000
- Isogen: 200
- Nocxium: 100
- Zydrine: 19
Hemorphite:
- Tritanium: 2200
- Isogen: 100
- Nocxium: 120
- Zydrine: 15
Jaspet:
- Mexallon: 350
- Nocxium: 75
- Zydrine: 8
Rebalancing the ore content of the mining anomalies generated by the Ore Prospecting Array With these changes, the total mineral supply gained by mining out an entire Ore Prospecting Array anomaly (other than the small belts) will more closely match the average mineral consumption across the EVE universe, allowing alliances to more easily source the bulk of their raw minerals locally for industrial activities. The relative compositions of each anomaly are slightly different, allowing each corporation or alliance to decide which best matches their personal industrial activities.
Small:
- Arkonor: 13000
- Bistot: 19000
- Crokite: 38700
- Dark Ochre: 30000
- Gneiss: 210000
- Spodumain: 220000
Medium:
- Arkonor: 28000
- Bistot: 38700
- Crokite: 84730
- Dark Ochre: 25500
- Gneiss: 270000
- Spodumain: 270000
- Mercoxit: 2600
Large:
- Arkonor: 29900
- Bistot: 57650
- Crokite: 112600
- Dark Ochre: 60000
- Gneiss: 313500
- Spodumain: 368100
- Mercoxit: 3500
Enormous:
- Arkonor: 56000
- Bistot: 78000
- Crokite: 169500
- Dark Ochre: 50000
- Gneiss: 540000
- Spodumain: 542000
- Mercoxit: 5200
Colossal:
- Arkonor: 60800
- Bistot: 114300
- Crokite: 225200
- Dark Ochre: 115000
- Gneiss: 630000
- Spodumain: 736200
- Mercoxit: 7000
The ore compositions of other mining anomalies found within Nullsec, Lowsec and Wormhole space will not change, but the mineral changes will cause the value of mining those anomalies to rise significantly as well.
We're very interested to hear from miners, nullsec industrialists and prospective nullsec industrialists. Let us know how you view these changes and how you would like to see them changed to better meet your needs. Thanks!
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/
|
|
Glasgow Dunlop
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
266
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 21:30:10 -
[2] - Quote
first. . . .
Also what of Gas mining???
@glasgowdunlop #tweetfleet
TDSIN Recruitment Director : Join 'TDSIN pub'
Glasgow / Edinbvrgh Meet Organiser
|
Nyctef
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
111
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 21:31:26 -
[3] - Quote
Gneiss! |
Bobmon
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
139
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 21:32:01 -
[4] - Quote
Third
GÖ¢GÖ¢Bobmon for CSM10
@BobmonEve
|
Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
490
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 21:32:37 -
[5] - Quote
Wow, mining.
Ok looking forward to the day when it can either be done semi-afk, as now, or it can be done as an involving semi-exploration mini-game. Then I might actually check it out again.
As for the numbers presented, hopefully the folks that do it will like what you plan to do.
CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting-áoff button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.
|
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
5136
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 21:33:41 -
[6] - Quote
if people want to compare ore mineral numbers to current: https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ore/
Woo! CSM X!
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
|
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1044
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 21:36:51 -
[7] - Quote
One suggestion: remove mercoxit from all mining anoms. It'll make it somewhat unique again, and make people occasionally mine in belts to seek mercoxit out instead of it being a waste product of anomolies. Right now it's basically junk because anoms produce tons of it that nobody's really seeking to mine.
The other changes look great, though we'll have to math them out. |
MainDrain
Applied Anarchy SpaceMonkey's Alliance
318
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 21:39:10 -
[8] - Quote
Will the amount of mining required to get the small/medium/large etc ore anoms be changing, or the associated degradation? |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1716
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 21:39:41 -
[9] - Quote
I would suggest, along with weaselior, that morphite is eventually fixed a bit. Perhaps making it belt mining only? We will have to math out the changes a bit but in general I like the direction. Math will prove out if it will be competitive enough with ratting ISK/HR to get adoption.
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.
Creator of Burn Jita
Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
|
Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
224
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 21:40:08 -
[10] - Quote
so what happens to the ore we have stocked up and have yet refined?
will they change to the new amounts after patch day?
|
|
eli assassun
Big Diggers Get Off My Lawn
1
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 21:41:34 -
[11] - Quote
Any news on the Rorqual?
Have you also looked at changing the amount of M3 mined per day required to hold the industry indicies? it seems quite out of sync with military for example. |
Dr Cedric
Independent Miners Corporation Care Factor
88
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 21:44:50 -
[12] - Quote
I hope this reduces the bottleneck for Mexallon out in Null...
also, anyone want to buy some overpriced Mexallon today!? :)
Cedric
|
Taru Audeles
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 21:45:17 -
[13] - Quote
You are still not touching one of the biggest issues that you left with the industry change some month ago. And that is the Rorqual and Orca. You can change the barges around like you did several times or change the ore composition AGAIN ! But with the poor design of mineral compression and the jump fatique and all the other changes that makes living and traveling in null sec so bad you are just making everything worse without presenting or giving players options to adapt.
To give null sec a real chance you need to make a rorqual and orca change. Have a vision and and act on it. You need to tackle mineral compression so it is actual possible to transport large amounts of ore. Those mineral compression POS mods are great for small gangs but bigger operations have other needs.
You might make mining worth more ISK per hour but mining is still horrible and industry in null sec still suffer from some big holes in your concepts. |
Narku Bourgeoisie Tonisilitis
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
1
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 21:45:20 -
[14] - Quote
Quote:The upgraded versions of each ore will continue to contain +5% and +10% minerals as they did before.
Noooo, this is such a good opportunity for ore tiericide :(
We don't need 96 different markets for 8 types of minerals! |
Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
224
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 21:51:11 -
[15] - Quote
Fozz
you need to fix the Rorqual.. time and time again this is brought up but it seems weird you guys do your strangest best to avoid her. you broke it.. now fix it..
fix the rorqual! not nerf her anymore.. FIX IT.
|
1Robert McNamara1
The Graduates Forged of Fire
81
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 22:00:08 -
[16] - Quote
There goes my ore transportation business... Good.
Are the high sec ores going to retain their current mix?
I disagree with removing the varieties of ore (suggested above). If I remember correctly the higher value rocks are only in asteroid belts and their improved compression is a boon to transporters. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1776
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 22:07:18 -
[17] - Quote
let's hope the 5th or so try at rebalancing ores actually works...
Build your empire !
Rent Space in Feythabolis and Omist
Contact me for details :)
|
Dr Farallon
Moongoo Mining and Mixing Goonswarm Federation
10
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 22:07:40 -
[18] - Quote
New Ore Charts (estimated)
Mineral Output per 100 Units of Ore
Mineral Output per m3 of Ore
Do these look correct? |
Drone Plague
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 22:10:14 -
[19] - Quote
Null mining will not be a thing until you make it possible. Currently an interceptor can be in system and in the belt/anoms in under 30 seconds. change them so that all belts/anoms need to be scanned down first.
Null mining will also not be viable until you fix the Rorqual. Currently, it is a useless capital as it not even any good for pos deployment anymore. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1573
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 22:10:46 -
[20] - Quote
I must say, after mathing out the new ore prospecting site compositions, I give my most sincere approval. The new comps should do a lot to help normalize mining.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
|
Bear Templar
Full Spectrum Inc Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
10
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 22:11:49 -
[21] - Quote
Narku Bourgeoisie Tonisilitis wrote:Quote:The upgraded versions of each ore will continue to contain +5% and +10% minerals as they did before. Noooo, this is such a good opportunity for ore tiericide :( We don't need 96 different ore markets for 8 types of minerals!
QFT.
In regards to the wider implications; I don't think the intended results are going to happen. You're still going to see the majority of ore/minerals shipped back to high-sec.
Miners will want to switch the highest ISK/Hour ore, reducing the mining of lower ends. Import is still going to be necessary and people, at least I wouldn't, aren't going to import things constantly. It's more convenient to buy and import the finished goods, especially as the items people want to have require not just T1 production but T2 as well, which is a whole other kettle of fish.
The main stimulus for buying things is things being blown up. If people are buying items to use & fight locally, then the industrialists are going to be worried about the security of their assets if they know a hot-zone is not too far away.
No-one really knows what's going to happen with fozzy-sov. I wouldn't risk my assets for, yes greater margins in 0.0, but against greater turn over and, almost risk-free, production in HS.
...wait a sec, this thread was about mining....wasn't it?
If a fish weighs 1 Kilogram plus half its own weight, how much does it weigh? (It's not 1.5kg btw)
|
Soleil Fournier
Ultimatum. The Bastion
35
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 22:14:41 -
[22] - Quote
Thumbs up.
This post doesn't mention changing the decay rate though....is that still a thing? |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2033
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 22:15:30 -
[23] - Quote
1Robert McNamara1 wrote:There goes my ore transportation business... Good.
Are the high sec ores going to retain their current mix?
I disagree with removing the varieties of ore (suggested above). If I remember correctly the higher value rocks are only in asteroid belts and their improved compression is a boon to transporters. It may be a 'boon to transporters' right until the industrialists have to deal with 3 different compressed ore varieties per ore as a result. The saving in micromanagement from removing all 5% & 10% ores and changing it so that you actually just mine 5% & 10% more of the normal ore is worth a small increase in transportation issue, especially since compression can now be done at any POS, station or outpost, making it vastly easier to transport Ore in general. |
Bear Templar
Full Spectrum Inc Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
10
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 22:17:59 -
[24] - Quote
I've now thrice read the OP.
Just for clarification on my part, and in almost contrary to my previous post not too long ago; they're also increasing lower-ends minerals in the ABC ores so that whilst they're still mining them for the high-ends they're still getting plenty of trit, pye, etc?
If a fish weighs 1 Kilogram plus half its own weight, how much does it weigh? (It's not 1.5kg btw)
|
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2256
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 22:24:26 -
[25] - Quote
Fozzie, could explain the thinking behind the zyd/Meg increases? Is this intended to be a long term or short term fix? Is the
I feel like as soon as the changes hit, some people might mine more of the high ends and drive the supply back up to meet demand, and put prices near their starting point, only effectively changing the number of people mining and minerals used, once everything else stabilizes. |
Garr Khan
Drifters Social Club
46
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 22:25:47 -
[26] - Quote
Oh man... so much for that Mega/Zyd speculation... glad I saw the devblog quick and was able to dump to sells. |
Axe Coldon
59
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 22:26:19 -
[27] - Quote
Hmm.. very radical changes. Harder to pop the Index belts as they all have a ton of Spod. I am guessing it should solve the mexallon shortage when null mining/building.
Usually I write big long opinion pieces about any mining change. But this is so radical its hard to wrap my head around..so I just have this:
If because of the changes miners will make more isk per hour, then I am for it.
Unlike High sec, null mining can't be done semi-afk. And atm it has the lowest isk per hour of any of the eve professions (IMHO).
I vote for some love for the rorqual also.
No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
|
Manfred Sideous
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
1151
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 22:33:18 -
[28] - Quote
Great Change CCP +1 support.
@EveManny
https://twitter.com/EveManny
|
Lienzo
Amanuensis
88
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 22:45:51 -
[29] - Quote
Spodumain has always been the sexiest ore.
The increased volumetric usage of the high ends is really key, even with the increased supply.
I would suggest doing a data dump and putting a reminder on a calendar for this one for a revisit in six months just to see if we are hitting the target. |
nesdaq
Viziam Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 22:48:30 -
[30] - Quote
Hey, what about lowering the other 6 requirement to 3/2 and keep with the current mega and zyd make eve cheaper!
I quited mining 3 years ago when they nerving the Anomaly sites needed probing and a few others nerfs. all benefits to the PVP. Giving PVP players a hard **** fetching us.
Because OH BOY. mining is hard work!!! NOT Make u go do other stuff and get lazy
Not mention the ships we have. LOL thats a joke about time get a tier4 or get our survey scanner a buff. But nahhh.
No u cant have my stuff. |
|
Axe Coldon
59
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 22:49:03 -
[31] - Quote
Garr Khan wrote:Oh man... so much for that Mega/Zyd speculation... glad I saw the devblog quick and was able to dump to sells.
How do you figure? I think zydrine and megacyte prices will go through the roof after these changes. They are lowering the amount and increasing demand.
The mainstay of null mining is the large index belt. It was easy to pop and worth a lot of isk and had a lot of megacyte. Now he has a ton of spodumain and the spod won't have megacyte anymore. All the belts will be hard to pop. And we will all end up mining spodumain.
I doubt you sold....surely you aren't that blind. I think you are hoping by your post everyone else will sell so you can stock up even more.
No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
|
Katrina Moore
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
2
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 22:52:50 -
[32] - Quote
nesdaq wrote:Hey, what about lowering the other 6 requirement to 3/2 and keep with the current mega and zyd make eve cheaper! I quited mining 3 years ago when they nerving the Anomaly sites needed probing and a few others nerfs. all benefits to the PVP. Giving PVP players a hard **** fetching us. Because OH BOY. mining is hard work!!! NOT Make u go do other stuff and get lazy Not mention the ships we have. LOL thats a joke about time get a tier4 or get our survey scanner a buff. But nahhh. No u cant have my stuff.
you just assaulted all kinds of valid sentence structuring and reading your rant has made me decide to have fried kitten tails tonight for dinner.
may god bless your soul. |
Lady Miah
Perkone Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 22:57:22 -
[33] - Quote
Hi,
I am not a fan of these changes. I do not think you have adequately considered price and manufacturing pressure on existing items. Many items are unprofitable to manufacture in their current form and invention is a total mess even with recent changes, so increasing the mineral cost for these items at the same time sovereignty changes are being introduced is going to have a hugely negative impact on the game, making it much more expensive for people to play. Which works great for your pocketbook, until you start losing subscribers.
I like the idea of nullsec minerals increasing in importance and increasing nullsec self-sufficiency, but the reality is that life is already very difficult for most miners both high and lowsec, and the nullsec mining climate is going to get much more hostile with the increases in roaming gangs under the new sovereignty system. Which is totally fine, but it is going to have a serious net impact on prices, which in turn is going to continue to help the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
CCP's changes are getting less and less clued by the day. There are some fantastic ideas being bandied around (and I applaud the innovative spirit, particularly of the structure changes which I think are the best thing to happen to EVE in almost a decade) but the rush to put them in place before they have been thought through is pretty obvious.
Before you do anything, you need to wait for the changes from Fozziesov to settle out, rebalance the industrial ships, take a good hard look at manufacturing profit and mineral content overall, and consider making PVPers make a choice between killing miners/industrialists and killing everything else. My suggestion would be to offer specialized arrays for scanning down mining anomalies. Then there's the question of how to get these minerals out of null, which has gotten pretty difficult with the absolutely dimwitted travel changes and has essentially pushed everyone towards jump freighters.
You can't rely on the market dataset; there are too many items there being sold at levels currently unprofitable to manufacture, which leads one to question whether CCP has any sense of what is actually going on.
If you don't fix industry, EVE will continue to be too expensive to play.
Can you please stop with the braindead decisions? |
SpaceSaft
Capts Deranged Cavaliers Gentlemen's.Club
143
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 23:02:24 -
[34] - Quote
Honestly, even with that mineral ore chart it's a lot of number crunching that I don't really want to do just to see what's changing. I'm sure you used a spreadsheet and some +- % on the total mineral contents of a representative slice of ore. So if you could post those instead that'd be cool
Are anoms staying pointless when there are non empty belts?
The UI is still bad.
|
Dr Cedric
Independent Miners Corporation Care Factor
91
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 23:02:45 -
[35] - Quote
Drone Plague wrote:Null mining will not be a thing until you make it possible. Currently an interceptor can be in system and in the belt/anoms in under 30 seconds. change them so that all belts/anoms need to be scanned down first.
Null mining will also not be viable until you fix the Rorqual. Currently, it is a useless capital as it not even any good for pos deployment anymore.
Taking my miners from 162 sec/cycle to just over 90 seconds seems pretty "useless" to me as well. Yep, totally useless
Cedric
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1573
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 23:10:47 -
[36] - Quote
Regarding the ore composition changes -- what ship was used to balance the new ore yield?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
SpaceSaft
Capts Deranged Cavaliers Gentlemen's.Club
143
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 23:16:07 -
[37] - Quote
Right, I did the number crunching for tritanium at least. All new nullsec ores still have a lower trit/m3 content than veldspar. Which means I'm still going to be stuck mining highsec ore(s) in nullsec.
The UI is still bad.
|
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Shadow of xXDEATHXx
174
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 23:16:41 -
[38] - Quote
After going over the figure. Still needs More Tritanium
reduce the zydrine and megacyte by another 20 to 30% and increase trit by 50 to 100% more
Please Increase the trit some more to fix the isk balance issue.
many thanks
after going over 1 month worth of ore figures, trit is still short by 55% and pyrite by 20% |
Mario Putzo
1174
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 23:51:43 -
[39] - Quote
RIP HS Production.
|
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
629
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 00:03:48 -
[40] - Quote
So in six months it will be supers and tech3 online. Almost interesting changes for null space.
I foresee ships and gear prices skyrocket, nullsec says 'screw empire space, ahahahahaha' and stops exporting all together. Nobody can buy gear and ships anymore and everyone is forced to fly newly gimped tech3, nullsec flies supers and titans all day long.
nullsec get good(ererer) and empire is a tritanium haven for bittervets -> EVE offline.
signature
|
|
Josefiinah
Deutsche Lichtbringer AG Fidelas Constans
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 00:06:53 -
[41] - Quote
According to a few calculations of me, I would say you should raise the following minerals by the following values :
Tritanium ~ 5 % in the greater clusters Pyrite ~ 20 % Mexallon : looks good now Isogen ~ 15 % more in the greater Clusters Noxicum also ~ 10 % more in the greater clusters Zydrine ~5 % more Megacyte ~5 % more Morphite ~ 10 % more
Why?
according to my calculations (and provided that they are right) I have determined the following values of the enormous cluster
Tritanium : 356.435.000 Units Pyrite : 86.551.000 Units Mexallon : 25.742.000 Units Isogen : 4.895.000 Units Noxicum : 1.348.000 Units Zydrine : 579.825 Units Megacyte : 257.200 Units Morphite 15.600 Units
___________________________________
These are my figures, before refining.
the other groups have no great divergence of it, apart from the total quantity. If some pay are wrong, sry, it is quite late ;)
Jm2c
|
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3299
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 00:14:20 -
[42] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: It also makes it much easier for players to decide what ore to mine if they find themselves in need of a specific mineral. No, it does not. You mine ALL the ore in the anomaly so you can get another anomaly.
Please understand that. It has been distorting the mineral supply in the game for years. Null miners DO NOT get to choose what ore they mine, they are spoon fed what to mine by game mechanics.
Suggestion: Prospecting arrays are scriptable. The script tends to cause some types of ore to show up more often that others. Dont make it perfect, but something that allows the players to nudge the ores toward what they need.
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
|
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
461
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 00:14:53 -
[43] - Quote
I have removed an off-topic post. Please contribute the discussion if you decide to post.
Quote:27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.
Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.
ISD Decoy
Commander
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
|
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Shadow of xXDEATHXx
174
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 00:18:17 -
[44] - Quote
Still needs more mexallon |
W Sherman Elric
Blackstone Holdings Sev3rance
13
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 00:22:34 -
[45] - Quote
My quick read came up with "meh" honestly was expecting something a bit more radical, such as single mineral ores.
Ok like other folks have said
if you want mining to increase then move the anoms back to being scanned down (including ice)
it made for an interesting game, reds had to work to get kills and miners had to be even more alert.
Pre open anoms
red comes in scans down and book marks the sites , miners scatter. Hours later (hopefully when no one remembers the reds name) the red returns warps to book mark.
much better that jump in open probe scanner select anom warp to anom gank miner leave.
|
Kellaen
Valar Morghulis. Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 00:32:04 -
[46] - Quote
Thumbs up.
Now while you're at it, get rid of the barge ice / mercoxit rigs and you'll get two thumbs up. |
Aya Nova
Bearded BattleBears Brave Collective
12
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 00:45:49 -
[47] - Quote
All these changes only address one side (and the less important one of) of why null mining isn't happening.
Mining as it is, is a very uninteractive activity. You need a bunch of people sitting in a belt for hours, who can do nothing but drag ore from their bay. At the same time you need someone to clear the rats (who gets to do nothing for ~30min, then be active for 2) and if you plan to defend from PvP enemies, you need a sizable gang on standby (which is supremely boring).
The suggestion brought by others to make ore sites (in null only) require scanning is a great one.
Secondly the exhumers (or at least 1-2 of them or a new class of mining ships) need to be redesigned with the idea of nullsec defensive combat. This doesn't just mean lots of tank, because a helpless ship with lots of tank will just get ground down eventually. They need to actually be able to protect themselves, something like bonuses and slots to allow fitting of undersized weapons (or RLMLs) that would allow a pack of exhumers to not be a pushover for a smaller number of inities or a torp bomber drop. For example adding a max 3 fitted to strip miners, and adding turret/launcher highs, more mids and bonusing small weapons on the hull, but reducing warp speed to make them undesirable offensively.
Another idea would be to gate the ore production through availability not time to harvest, much like exploration sites. Make it an intense, high ISK/hr activity where it makes sense for combat and mining players to work together in a group over a short span with high rewards. |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
256
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 00:54:28 -
[48] - Quote
Is this intended to have any impact on the level of low/WH mining?
For posting an idea into F&I:
come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it.....
If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
|
Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
226
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 01:22:39 -
[49] - Quote
Aya Nova wrote:All these changes only address one side (and the less important one of) of why null mining isn't happening.
Mining as it is, is a very uninteractive activity. You need a bunch of people sitting in a belt for hours, who can do nothing but drag ore from their bay. At the same time you need someone to clear the rats (who gets to do nothing for ~30min, then be active for 2) and if you plan to defend from PvP enemies, you need a sizable gang on standby (which is supremely boring).
The suggestion brought by others to make ore sites (in null only) require scanning is a great one.
Secondly the exhumers (or at least 1-2 of them or a new class of mining ships) need to be redesigned with the idea of nullsec defensive combat. This doesn't just mean lots of tank, because a helpless ship with lots of tank will just get ground down eventually. They need to actually be able to protect themselves, something like bonuses and slots to allow fitting of undersized weapons (or RLMLs) that would allow a pack of exhumers to not be a pushover for a smaller number of inities or a torp bomber drop. For example adding a max 3 fitted to strip miners, and adding turret/launcher highs, more mids and bonusing small weapons on the hull, but reducing warp speed to make them undesirable offensively.
Another idea would be to gate the ore production through availability not time to harvest, much like exploration sites. Make it an intense, high ISK/hr activity where it makes sense for combat and mining players to work together in a group over a short span with high rewards.
how the hell do you expect mining to be exciting.. what you want them to pvp the damn rocks? good grief go find a new home already. |
Mario Putzo
1174
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 01:26:49 -
[50] - Quote
Ok serious post.
Has anyone at CCP considered just what the changes to Megacyte production cost is going to do to HS Production? There is no "mining" source of Megacyte in HS, the markets in highsec only hold a supply 25% of current demand. After changes the market supply will be effectively 25%. The only source of HS Megacyte was gun minning which CCP nerfed by nearly 45% last year. It doesn't take a degree in math to show that a 200% increase to the requirements of Megacyte are impractical and unsustainable at current levels, let alone when you compound future changes to Sov, any Fatigue Rebalancing.
HS will need a source of Megacyte, as will Lowsec. If the goal is to make self sufficiency a thing, then it should be applied to all areas of space. Otherwise.
Its game over man, game over.
Don't get me wrong i like changes to sov, and i like these changes, but this is only going to nuke HS production. |
|
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2256
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 01:31:40 -
[51] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Ok serious post.
Has anyone at CCP considered just what the changes to Megacyte production cost is going to do to HS Production? There is no "mining" source of Megacyte in HS, the markets in highsec only hold a supply 25% of current demand. After changes the market supply will be effectively 25%. The only source of HS Megacyte was gun minning which CCP nerfed by nearly 45% last year. It doesn't take a degree in math to show that a 200% increase to the requirements of Megacyte are impractical and unsustainable at current levels, let alone when you compound future changes to Sov, any Fatigue Rebalancing.
HS will need a source of Megacyte, as will Lowsec. If the goal is to make self sufficiency a thing, then it should be applied to all areas of space. Otherwise.
Its game over man, game over.
I don't think this will be a major issue, firstly because Meg and zyd are a very small portion of build materials, and secondly, oversupply was the reason current prices are where they are at (speculation effects notwithstanding).
My only concern, and maybe slightly misinformed opinion, is that once the mineral becomes more demanded, the supply will catch up like it does currently, leaving us with a new status quo. However I am not against the idea of giving highsec some sort of limited direct acces to those two minerals. |
Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
226
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 01:33:40 -
[52] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Ok serious post.
Has anyone at CCP considered just what the changes to Megacyte production cost is going to do to HS Production? There is no "mining" source of Megacyte in HS, the markets in highsec only hold a supply 25% of current demand. After changes the market supply will be effectively 25%. The only source of HS Megacyte was gun minning which CCP nerfed by nearly 45% last year. It doesn't take a degree in math to show that a 200% increase to the requirements of Megacyte are impractical and unsustainable at current levels, let alone when you compound future changes to Sov, any Fatigue Rebalancing.
HS will need a source of Megacyte, as will Lowsec. If the goal is to make self sufficiency a thing, then it should be applied to all areas of space. Otherwise.
Its game over man, game over.
Don't get me wrong i like changes to sov, and i like these changes, but this is only going to nuke HS production.
no its get out of high sec and go to null sec.. hello mcfly!.. these changes are for null to attract people..
no one gives a stink about high sec right now.. its about how we're to build these damn new structures coming.. so HTFU and just deal with it.
I want to know when is the damn rorqual fix coming.. but they stay dodging and cloaking up the subject. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1573
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 01:34:19 -
[53] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Ok serious post.
Has anyone at CCP considered just what the changes to Megacyte production cost is going to do to HS Production? There is no "mining" source of Megacyte in HS, the markets in highsec only hold a supply 25% of current demand. After changes the market supply will be effectively 25%. The only source of HS Megacyte was gun minning which CCP nerfed by nearly 45% last year. It doesn't take a degree in math to show that a 200% increase to the requirements of Megacyte are impractical and unsustainable at current levels, let alone when you compound future changes to Sov, any Fatigue Rebalancing.
HS will need a source of Megacyte, as will Lowsec. If the goal is to make self sufficiency a thing, then it should be applied to all areas of space. Otherwise.
Its game over man, game over.
Highsec doesn't really need a source of megacyte. Interregional trade is the backbone of quite a few industries. I'd sure love for all moon minerals to be available in my backyard, but, alas, it is not to be. Highsec will survive with the least-used mineral being a little harder to get.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Rhydic Ujbikist
Spacegoat Enterprises
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 01:48:43 -
[54] - Quote
I'm glad to see that mining is being acknowledged as a thing again instead of just being thrown into a corner and presumed to be working fine and that lowsec mining is being rebalanced to be economically feasible again. I wish you guys would start seriously looking into some kind of optional active gameplay for mining in addition to the current passive method, though. Mining is pretty much the only form of gameplay left in EVE that hasn't had some kind of fundamental rework or new content outside of tweaking numbers(e: exploration changes, burner missions, continual addition of new ships for different PVP roles, etc).
I'd also like to hear what happened to that Rorqual rework that was supposedly not quite going to make it into Kronos.
Rowells wrote: However I am not against the idea of giving highsec some sort of limited direct acces to those two minerals.
I believe those would be wormholes.
|
Mario Putzo
1174
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 02:01:44 -
[55] - Quote
Querns wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Ok serious post.
Has anyone at CCP considered just what the changes to Megacyte production cost is going to do to HS Production? There is no "mining" source of Megacyte in HS, the markets in highsec only hold a supply 25% of current demand. After changes the market supply will be effectively 25%. The only source of HS Megacyte was gun minning which CCP nerfed by nearly 45% last year. It doesn't take a degree in math to show that a 200% increase to the requirements of Megacyte are impractical and unsustainable at current levels, let alone when you compound future changes to Sov, any Fatigue Rebalancing.
HS will need a source of Megacyte, as will Lowsec. If the goal is to make self sufficiency a thing, then it should be applied to all areas of space. Otherwise.
Its game over man, game over.
Highsec doesn't really need a source of megacyte. Interregional trade is the backbone of quite a few industries. I'd sure love for all moon minerals to be available in my backyard, but, alas, it is not to be. Highsec will survive with the least-used mineral being a little harder to get.
Kind of an odd thing to say in a thread about changing the system so NS is able to be self sufficient.
Milla Goodpussy wrote:no its get out of high sec and go to null sec.. hello mcfly!.. these changes are for null to attract people.. no one gives a stink about high sec right now.. its about how we're to build these damn new structures coming.. so HTFU and just deal with it. I want to know when is the damn rorqual fix coming.. but they stay dodging and cloaking up the subject.
Id wager more people will quit silently, than choose to go to NS. I don't think you get why people play in HS. HTFU up doesn't really apply hear either when we are talking about the core production of the game. There is a reason that the VAST majority of production and sales occur in HS, and when if the changes goes through production in HS is going to go into decline, everything will cost more, and people will simply...stop playing.
I don't think you quite grasp the absolute dependency this game has on HS production...and you are quite naive to believe NS is going to be the savior of production, it has always been more profitable to produce in NS...yet people don't...I wonder why that could be.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1573
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 02:05:46 -
[56] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Querns wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Ok serious post.
Has anyone at CCP considered just what the changes to Megacyte production cost is going to do to HS Production? There is no "mining" source of Megacyte in HS, the markets in highsec only hold a supply 25% of current demand. After changes the market supply will be effectively 25%. The only source of HS Megacyte was gun minning which CCP nerfed by nearly 45% last year. It doesn't take a degree in math to show that a 200% increase to the requirements of Megacyte are impractical and unsustainable at current levels, let alone when you compound future changes to Sov, any Fatigue Rebalancing.
HS will need a source of Megacyte, as will Lowsec. If the goal is to make self sufficiency a thing, then it should be applied to all areas of space. Otherwise.
Its game over man, game over.
Highsec doesn't really need a source of megacyte. Interregional trade is the backbone of quite a few industries. I'd sure love for all moon minerals to be available in my backyard, but, alas, it is not to be. Highsec will survive with the least-used mineral being a little harder to get. Kind of an odd thing to say in a thread about changing the system so NS is able to be self sufficient. It's a move towards more self-sufficiency, not the ironclad guarantee of self-sufficiency. Right now, nullsec imports nearly all of its materiel. Now with this, it can import a little less.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Mario Putzo
1174
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 02:12:42 -
[57] - Quote
Querns wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Querns wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Ok serious post.
Has anyone at CCP considered just what the changes to Megacyte production cost is going to do to HS Production? There is no "mining" source of Megacyte in HS, the markets in highsec only hold a supply 25% of current demand. After changes the market supply will be effectively 25%. The only source of HS Megacyte was gun minning which CCP nerfed by nearly 45% last year. It doesn't take a degree in math to show that a 200% increase to the requirements of Megacyte are impractical and unsustainable at current levels, let alone when you compound future changes to Sov, any Fatigue Rebalancing.
HS will need a source of Megacyte, as will Lowsec. If the goal is to make self sufficiency a thing, then it should be applied to all areas of space. Otherwise.
Its game over man, game over.
Highsec doesn't really need a source of megacyte. Interregional trade is the backbone of quite a few industries. I'd sure love for all moon minerals to be available in my backyard, but, alas, it is not to be. Highsec will survive with the least-used mineral being a little harder to get. Kind of an odd thing to say in a thread about changing the system so NS is able to be self sufficient. It's a move towards more self-sufficiency, not the ironclad guarantee of self-sufficiency. Right now, nullsec imports nearly all of its materiel. Now with this, it can import a little less.
Nullsec only imports because people do not use the space they claim ownership of. Thousands of m3 of Ore go uncollected every single day simply because people don't set foot in the systems....
in other words. "We import from HS, because we don't mine it ourselves." |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1573
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 02:16:31 -
[58] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote: Nullsec only imports because people do not use the space they claim ownership of. Thousands of m3 of Ore go uncollected every single day simply because people don't set foot in the systems....
in other words. "We import from HS, because we don't mine it ourselves."
Nah -- it's vastly more effort efficient to import, and contemporary mining is such bad isk/hr that no sane person would denigrate themselves by doing it. The changes should help the latter.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Mario Putzo
1175
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 02:19:50 -
[59] - Quote
Querns wrote:Mario Putzo wrote: Nullsec only imports because people do not use the space they claim ownership of. Thousands of m3 of Ore go uncollected every single day simply because people don't set foot in the systems....
in other words. "We import from HS, because we don't mine it ourselves."
Nah -- it's vastly more effort efficient to import, and contemporary mining is such bad isk/hr that no sane person would denigrate themselves by doing it. The changes should help the latter.
ISK/HR all the money in the world to buy the nothing on market. Sounds like a fun game. |
Siigari Kitawa
Magic Minerals
383
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 02:21:24 -
[60] - Quote
I thought Eve was about having connections and being able to do many things well.
If you give nullsec alliances a button to push so they can have everything they want, isn't that a bit inane? Why not make them work for it SOMEWHAT. I mean, I feel for them, I really do. In high and low, Zyd, Mega and Morph are nearly impossible to come by in usable quantities. I understand Mex is difficult for null to come by. So why give them everything and stifle everyone else?
Just seems fundamentally wrong in a SANDBOX.
Need stuff moved? Push Industries will handle it.
Serving highsec, lowsec and nullsec - and we do it faster and more reliably than anyone else.
Ingame channel: PUSHX
|
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1573
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 02:21:39 -
[61] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Querns wrote:Mario Putzo wrote: Nullsec only imports because people do not use the space they claim ownership of. Thousands of m3 of Ore go uncollected every single day simply because people don't set foot in the systems....
in other words. "We import from HS, because we don't mine it ourselves."
Nah -- it's vastly more effort efficient to import, and contemporary mining is such bad isk/hr that no sane person would denigrate themselves by doing it. The changes should help the latter. ISK/HR all the money in the world to buy the nothing on market. Sounds like a fun game. That's where importing comes in. The JF pilot gets paid, the importer gets paid, and the buyer gets what he wants. Everyone wins!
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1573
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 02:23:05 -
[62] - Quote
Siigari Kitawa wrote:I thought Eve was about having connections and being able to do many things well.
If you give nullsec alliances a button to push so they can have everything they want, isn't that a bit inane? Why not make them work for it SOMEWHAT. I mean, I feel for them, I really do. In high and low, Zyd, Mega and Morph are nearly impossible to come by in usable quantities. I understand Mex is difficult for null to come by. So why give them everything and stifle everyone else?
Just seems fundamentally wrong in a SANDBOX. You are aware that mining ships can be destroyed in nullsec with impunity, right? You can go and SNIPE one today!
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2036
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 03:09:03 -
[63] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote: No, it does not. You mine ALL the ore in the anomaly so you can get another anomaly.
You know, I heard a rumour there are these things called static belts in Null, that have even more in them than highsec, and a mix of all the ores as well. And given there are even more null systems than high, and high has no industrial anoms.... this must mean that all the ore that null currently imports could easily just come from their static belts.
You just won't be satisfied till CCP gives you absolute perfect braindead mining in the anoms will you? It's already been just handed to you on a silver platter needing only slight balancing, now you want it on the gold platter with platinum inlay as well. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
5789
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 03:09:53 -
[64] - Quote
Querns wrote:Nah -- it's vastly more effort efficient to import, and contemporary mining is such bad isk/hr that no sane person would denigrate themselves by doing it. The changes should help the latter.
Except that the high-ends already have such low value precisely because they are being mined out by people who "denigrate" themselves by mining everything based on "ISK/m3 to market."
Day 0 Advice for New Players
|
Lienzo
Amanuensis
88
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 03:21:14 -
[65] - Quote
These are great changes, but I'm still hoping that round 2 creates additional incentive for people to want to mine veldspar in lower security space. |
Phaestyriade
Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 03:28:51 -
[66] - Quote
WTS Roqual. IT is good for filling your sma. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2036
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 03:56:16 -
[67] - Quote
Phaestyriade wrote:WTS Roqual. IT is good for filling your sma. I bid 1 isk. Really, this thread is nothing to do with the Rorqual though. (And it gives fine boosts atm anyway). We all know it's broken, but ore composition changes are nothing to do with it. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1574
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 04:12:30 -
[68] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Querns wrote:Nah -- it's vastly more effort efficient to import, and contemporary mining is such bad isk/hr that no sane person would denigrate themselves by doing it. The changes should help the latter. Except that the high-ends already have such low value precisely because they are being mined out by people who "denigrate" themselves by mining everything based on "ISK/m3 to market." How convenient it is, then, that the amounts of AB in ore prospecting anomalies are being lowered while usage in nearly all blueprints doubles!
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1574
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 04:15:15 -
[69] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Vincent Athena wrote: No, it does not. You mine ALL the ore in the anomaly so you can get another anomaly.
You know, I heard a rumour there are these things called static belts in Null, that have even more in them than highsec, and a mix of all the ores as well. And given there are even more null systems than high, and high has no industrial anoms.... this must mean that all the ore that null currently imports could easily just come from their static belts. You just won't be satisfied till CCP gives you absolute perfect braindead mining in the anoms will you? It's already been just handed to you on a silver platter needing only slight balancing, now you want it on the gold platter with platinum inlay as well. Static asteroid belts contain a pittance of ore. I picked a belt at random and surveyed it GÇö there were six roids of crokie with a scant 2400 units each. The level one ore anom, by comparison, has 38,700.
Which would you pick?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2036
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 04:23:54 -
[70] - Quote
Querns wrote: Static asteroid belts contain a pittance of ore. I picked a belt at random and surveyed it GÇö there were six roids of crokie with a scant 2400 units each. The level one ore anom, by comparison, has 38,700.
Which would you pick?
Uh, I'd pick the static belt and not mine the C but cherry pick all the other ores in the belt to make my mineral income balance to output without importing from High Sec? Since constant over mining crashed C value till crying to CCP got it buffed again. That 'pittance' of ore you are talking about happens to be about 50% more ore than is available in a highsec belt, and there are about the same number of belts on average, plus about five times the number of null systems.
So overall null supply of ore was already orders of magnitude higher than high sec could ever supply assuming some use of the anoms also. I did a survey about six months back of about 30 null systems and posted some average results in a thread at the time. There was no issue with supply of ore in Null back then, this is just catering to the null miners who don't want to do anything but perpetually cycle anoms and hate the idea of having to even enter a belt. |
|
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
218
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 04:31:18 -
[71] - Quote
Summary: More ISK moves from highsec's already very modest mining returns to benefit nullsec alliances. If you can't run a logistics chain to get your supplies to nullsec, you shouldn't be operating a nullsec Corp / alliance.
Personally I'm starting a nullsec relief fund because I have seen their poverty and it's a real tear-jerker.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
|
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2256
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 04:33:24 -
[72] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Summary: More ISK moves from highsec's already very modest mining returns to benefit nullsec alliances. If you can't run a logistics chain to get your supplies to nullsec, you shouldn't be operating a nullsec Corp / alliance.
Personally I'm starting a nullsec relief fund because I have seen their poverty and it's a real tear-jerker. why should the space be so worthless in comparison, importation is only real option? |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1574
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 04:40:17 -
[73] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Querns wrote: Static asteroid belts contain a pittance of ore. I picked a belt at random and surveyed it GÇö there were six roids of crokie with a scant 2400 units each. The level one ore anom, by comparison, has 38,700.
Which would you pick?
Uh, I'd pick the static belt and not mine the C but cherry pick all the other ores in the belt to make my mineral income balance to output without importing from High Sec? Since constant over mining crashed C value till crying to CCP got it buffed again. That 'pittance' of ore you are talking about happens to be about 50% more ore than is available in a highsec belt, and there are about the same number of belts on average, plus about five times the number of null systems. So overall null supply of ore was already orders of magnitude higher than high sec could ever supply assuming some use of the anoms also. I did a survey about six months back of about 30 null systems and posted some average results in a thread at the time. There was no issue with supply of ore in Null back then, this is just catering to the null miners who don't want to do anything but perpetually cycle anoms and hate the idea of having to even enter a belt. Congratulations, you've failed to understand the point of my comparison. The point was to merely illustrate how little ore is in a static belt, not to suggest that you suck only crok until you can build a house from it. Heck GÇö I only used crokite because it was the only one whose results I could remember off hand. Forum posts don't get me to log in, sheeeeit.
Furthermore, self-limiting yourself to mining only the perfect mix of ore to build stuff is, frankly, just not that bright. It is ALWAYS far more efficient to mine the most lucrative ore you can grub up, then sell your excess to either buy minerals for production, or just buy the thing you want. CCP Fozzie and his team obviously realize this, as evident by the changes.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Gyr Altai
Alts Gone Bad
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 04:43:17 -
[74] - Quote
As a wormholer I think we need to move mining anoms back to scannables. I can hardly remember the last time I saw a barge in a WH anomaly. I feel more people would chance it if they had that chance of seeing probes on Dscan. More targets in space is a good thing.
Hell, I'd even take a skiff out once in a while if there was nothing else going on. Same as I do with gas huffing. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1574
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 04:47:05 -
[75] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Summary: More ISK moves from highsec's already very modest mining returns to benefit nullsec alliances. If you can't run a logistics chain to get your supplies to nullsec, you shouldn't be operating a nullsec Corp / alliance.
Personally I'm starting a nullsec relief fund because I have seen their poverty and it's a real tear-jerker. Nullsec is conquerable. Go carve out a slice if you want to get some. Hell, we are abandoning two of our regions come Fozziesov GÇö go forth and conquer!
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
218
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 04:56:33 -
[76] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Summary: More ISK moves from highsec's already very modest mining returns to benefit nullsec alliances. If you can't run a logistics chain to get your supplies to nullsec, you shouldn't be operating a nullsec Corp / alliance.
Personally I'm starting a nullsec relief fund because I have seen their poverty and it's a real tear-jerker. why should the space be so worthless in comparison, importation is only real option? We import THEIR minerals / ores and yes importation is our only option. To answer your question their space is FAR from worthless. It is a fact they have so much more profitable activities that they farmout their mining already to those desiring to mine their space for them.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
|
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2036
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 04:56:46 -
[77] - Quote
Querns wrote: Congratulations, you've failed to understand the point of my comparison. The point was to merely illustrate how little ore is in a static belt, not to suggest that you suck only crok until you can build a house from it. Heck GÇö I only used crokite because it was the only one whose results I could remember off hand. Forum posts don't get me to log in, sheeeeit.
Furthermore, self-limiting yourself to mining only the perfect mix of ore to build stuff is, frankly, just not that bright. It is ALWAYS far more efficient to mine the most lucrative ore you can grub up, then sell your excess to either buy minerals for production, or just buy the thing you want. CCP Fozzie and his team obviously realize this, as evident by the changes.
Except you have never surveyed a high sec belt obviously, and realised they have LESS ore than the Null belts you are busy calling useless. Yet somehow they have been supplying all your importing needs thus far. Meaning the Null belts obviously are capable of supplying your needs WITHOUT any changes to the anomalies.
Sure, you can suck forever at the most valuable ore, but by doing so you decrease it's value over time, since supply increases as a result. Hence what has happened to the ABC's, you increased supply because they were valuable, and then glutted the market. The problem comes where you went crying to CCP to fix a self induced issue, and cried for long enough that they have changed it to artificially give you more profit again. So much for emergent game play, so much for all zones being equally valid, this is a step towards a theme park where you have to play in Null to be 'end game' otherwise you can't get anywhere or do anything.
Needed buffs to null, I'm all happy for, needless buffs like this one, yes I'll fight against because this is just pandering to null players who ALREADY have the tools they need for local industry. And are just being given more and more and more advantage now. |
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
218
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 04:59:56 -
[78] - Quote
Querns wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Summary: More ISK moves from highsec's already very modest mining returns to benefit nullsec alliances. If you can't run a logistics chain to get your supplies to nullsec, you shouldn't be operating a nullsec Corp / alliance.
Personally I'm starting a nullsec relief fund because I have seen their poverty and it's a real tear-jerker. Nullsec is conquerable. Go carve out a slice if you want to get some. Hell, we are abandoning two of our regions come Fozziesov GÇö go forth and conquer! If I wanted to do that I wouldn't be playing in highsec. Also, they have the option of highsec mining if they wanted to play as I do.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
|
Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
226
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 05:07:44 -
[79] - Quote
The Rorqual should be part of this month's balance pass to enable those miners to pull in more yield cause its hard work sitting in a spot chewing on a rock, then to get hot dropped on by a fleet of so-called pro-pvpers who like to gank something that cant really fight back.
Give the Rorqual some love..
this will not STOP
until the Rorqual is back on TOP! |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2256
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 05:19:48 -
[80] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:We import THEIR minerals / ores and yes importation is our only option. I'll venture to geuss the value and volume of the minerals you need from null are fractional compared to what is hauled out in the same time period.
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:To answer your question their space is FAR from worthless. It is a fact they have so much more profitable activities that they farmout their mining already to those desiring to mine their space for them. Yes, and most of those activities don't include strip miners I'll bet. And as for renting, not everyone chooses optimal isk/hr playstyles, so I wouldn't point to that as a primary indication of comparitive profitability.
Goal of these changes isn't to simply make null miners richer, but to make the indutrialists and those farther down the resource chain, less reliant of the next JF load from highsec. |
|
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2256
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 05:21:48 -
[81] - Quote
Milla Goodpussy wrote:The Rorqual should be part of this month's balance pass to enable those miners to pull in more yield cause its hard work sitting in a spot chewing on a rock, then to get hot dropped on by a fleet of so-called pro-pvpers who like to gank something that cant really fight back.
Give the Rorqual some love..
this will not STOP
until the Rorqual is back on TOP! The rorqual has as much place in this discussion as jump fatigue and mission running. Very little and only a secondary effect to be considered.
Simply hijacking a thread to get attention to something unrelated is kinda lame. And also against the forum rules. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1574
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 05:26:12 -
[82] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Querns wrote: Congratulations, you've failed to understand the point of my comparison. The point was to merely illustrate how little ore is in a static belt, not to suggest that you suck only crok until you can build a house from it. Heck GÇö I only used crokite because it was the only one whose results I could remember off hand. Forum posts don't get me to log in, sheeeeit.
Furthermore, self-limiting yourself to mining only the perfect mix of ore to build stuff is, frankly, just not that bright. It is ALWAYS far more efficient to mine the most lucrative ore you can grub up, then sell your excess to either buy minerals for production, or just buy the thing you want. CCP Fozzie and his team obviously realize this, as evident by the changes.
Except you have never surveyed a high sec belt obviously, and realised they have LESS ore than the Null belts you are busy calling useless. Yet somehow they have been supplying all your importing needs thus far. Meaning the Null belts obviously are capable of supplying your needs WITHOUT any changes to the anomalies. Sure, you can suck forever at the most valuable ore, but by doing so you decrease it's value over time, since supply increases as a result. Hence what has happened to the ABC's, you increased supply because they were valuable, and then glutted the market. The problem comes where you went crying to CCP to fix a self induced issue, and cried for long enough that they have changed it to artificially give you more profit again. So much for emergent game play, so much for all zones being equally valid, this is a step towards a theme park where you have to play in Null to be 'end game' otherwise you can't get anywhere or do anything. Needed buffs to null, I'm all happy for, needless buffs like this one, yes I'll fight against because this is just pandering to null players who ALREADY have the tools they need for local industry. And are just being given more and more and more advantage now. No, I get it GÇö highsec belts are even more useless for making money than nullsec belts. The tradeoff is safety in both mining and getting your product to market. People very willingly accept a lower isk/hr to leverage that safety. Nullsec, being far less safe, needs the goose to actually get people into space with their nuts in the wind. Highsec currently supplies lowends to nullsec because there are far, far more people in highsec than nullsec. It isn't because of static belts being mineral manna from heaven GÇö it's because the thin resources there are more savagely exploited due to the much higher player count.
This is the dirty secret of highsec static belts GÇö they contain even less ideal mixes of ores, but the safety of mining the ores you do have, the wide, wide net from which to mine (all of empire space!) and literal afk hauling to market means you have a much larger plate from which to take.
Meanwhile, nullsec has no safety at all except that which we claw out; hauling is near suicidal without a JF (and then, fatigue,) and an individual nullsec pilot has far fewer places from which to mine. (Not all nullsec dwellers belong to the Imperium!)
Additionally, you are dangerously misunderstanding the reason why highends were (prior to the speculation rush) garbage. When drone poo was removed, a massive low-end faucet was closed. Low-ends became the mining bottleneck, causing high-ends to swirl around in the toilet of the market. Furthermore, since high-end bearing ores have to be mined to cycle the ore prospecting sites, those few still mining (habitation? autism co-morbidity?) continued to railroad more and more highends onto the market.
Also, this is worth requoting:
Quote: So much for emergent game play, so much for all zones being equally valid, this is a step towards a theme park where you have to play in Null to be 'end game' otherwise you can't get anywhere or do anything.
Uh, zones in eve have NEVER been equally valid. Nullsec has larger risk; so follows larger rewards. If all zones were equally valid, why would anyone live in nullsec when you could have CONCORD watching your back? In nullsec, you can get SNIPED at any time.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
218
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 05:26:57 -
[83] - Quote
CCP you should compensate highsec ore so our real income doesn't drop. As, usual you put not the slightest thought to "balancing" highsec ore or you just straight up don't care that you are transferring our ISK to the nullsec cartels.
Btw, what you should do is make lowsec ore more valuable and leave nullore where it is now. Lowsec is where the real challenge is in mining and according to your mantra of risk vs reward lowsec ore should be carrlying the highest premium in the game.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1574
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 05:28:59 -
[84] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:CCP you should compensate highsec ore so our real income doesn't drop Hi, highsec incursions called.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Jethro Amar
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
4
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 07:24:33 -
[85] - Quote
To all the hisec miners: I get it that you make less profit. I'm not even using the risk vs reward mantra. Just tell me one thing: what do you need that isk for? i mean, living in hisec means you never lose anything, so whatever wealth you accumulate is never used. What's the whining all about when average hisec player is probably much much wealthier than a nullsec player (taking length of play into consideration).
The problem in nullsec mining is that you can easily die in a system with 100 blues. There is no way for people to help you unless they're on grid already. Before they arrive the barge is down anyway.
Create a new module: when activated the ship is disabled and invulnerable for 30 sec. This will allow the blues to come and help, but do nothing to save a lone miner. Not working in hisec of course or having some other limitations that would keep ganks possible. This would improve the game on a few levels. First is obviously improved mining in null and people might actually use exhumers again. It would help against cloaky campers and their lame blop drops. It would allow mining in lowsec, which is nowadays pure suicide. The most important however would be the gameplay around new idea of "owning a system". it would allow merc corps to actually have a meaning. If used in hisec it would allow for corps to fight wardeccers or pay somebody to do it. It would allow hisec players to go to lowsec and make friends with the pvpers there for protection. It would allow protection rackets in non-sov systems(curently those are impossible cause no protection can be given). It would allow a dozen other thing that I haven't thought about. |
Shegox Gabriel
Angry Angels Constructions The Kadeshi
2
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 08:35:40 -
[86] - Quote
The rebalance as itself looks nice. With the current market prices for minerals is it a nice increase in Isk/h for 0.0 Mining.
I made a spreadsheet with the new 0.0 Ores & Belts here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hgOipMOuTaDLAJLeCH-q6zFq-vir9DL-waaUGx9sPtk/pubhtml [Sorry that it is in german, but most of the things should be clear [Refiningfaktor means how much you get and Steuern means taxes. Gewinn pro Hulk is how much ISK you do with a full skilled T2 Hulk [212.000m-¦/h]. |
Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1329
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 08:42:47 -
[87] - Quote
Mineral price crash for all minerals incoming.
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
|
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
1962
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 09:01:37 -
[88] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:We continue to believe that no area of space should be completely independent of any other, but there is a lot of room to make nullsec more self sufficient and improve the opportunities for zero-sec miners and industrialists. Fozzie, could you briefly expand on this? Do you think that this balance pass will result in greater local null production but retain some dependence on other space?
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Neugeniko
Insight Securities
62
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 09:18:55 -
[89] - Quote
Changes look good. Current compressed ore prices seem to indicate the market was expecting full mineral independence for null. Glad to see that wont be the case and there will still be a export market from Hi to Null. Expecting a slight increase in prices over the coming weeks.
Cheers, Neug
Indices/Mining Simulator V3.8 UPDATED
Daily Forge Mineral Sales Summary V1.3
Neug's Prime Industrial Real Estate V1.3
|
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
279
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 09:40:50 -
[90] - Quote
Querns wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Summary: More ISK moves from highsec's already very modest mining returns to benefit nullsec alliances. If you can't run a logistics chain to get your supplies to nullsec, you shouldn't be operating a nullsec Corp / alliance.
Personally I'm starting a nullsec relief fund because I have seen their poverty and it's a real tear-jerker. Hell, we are abandoning two of our regions come Fozziesov GÇö go forth and conquer!
Itsatrap. ( -í~ -£-û -í-¦)
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1090
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 10:44:11 -
[91] - Quote
Just caught up on this and I have to say I'm not really sure how much this will help other than transfer some of the balance of mining isk into big alliance coffers.
Miners tend to do so because they enjoy it/enjoy building stuff from their proceeds. They tend not to like combat hence avoiding it. The reasons behind this are simply not down to the ores available otherwise they would already be mining in null/WH's/losec.
These changes in all likelihood will not change the numbers mining, it'll just give null more minerals locally and increase the cost of high-ends in hisec thus nerfing production profitability there. Whether this is a good idea or not remains to be seen since the increased low-ends may mitigate some issues with jump fatigue for bulk importing.
With this change going ahead it may be an idea to add some of the most rare rocks in small amounts into hard to scan anomalies in hisec and losec for explorers to go find. Then some of the isk transfer is mitigated, production issues in nullsec are mitigated and new sites are added for explorers to find and exploit putting more pilots in space whilst rewarding actual effort more. |
Hicksimus
Xion Limited Resonance.
584
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 10:46:05 -
[92] - Quote
I'd like to see nullsec have its hand held less by CCP. A real fix for nullsec mining is making it much harder to import materials.
Everybody gets stuck on trade hub values because you can stuff a huge quantity of minerals in a near-0 risk ship and nearly instantly have those minerals in your home sov. Give mining some real value. Things that make my idea great! Nullsec would actually need more than 10 null miners in a 1000+ person alliance. Highsec gets nerfed because null stops bulk ordering their minerals. We collect null tears because all of their mains and alts can only fly supercapitals and ishtars which are both only good at mining for the lols.
Recruitment Officer: What type of a pilot are you?
Me: I've been described as a Ray Charles with Parkinsons and a drinking problem.
|
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
166
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 11:33:10 -
[93] - Quote
As expected, hisec mining is completely rekt. Thanks Mike, you've proven to be an armor fit laser drake of a CSM once again.
Now who has the biggest bot fleet wins eve mineral rush.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
|
Cixi
Hedion University Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 11:51:54 -
[94] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:As expected, hisec mining is completely rekt. Thanks Mike, you've proven to be an armor fit laser drake of a CSM once again.
Now who has the biggest bot fleet wins eve mineral rush.
Minerals prices are already falling jita.
|
Jagoff Haverford
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
145
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 12:10:56 -
[95] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote: It also makes it much easier for players to decide what ore to mine if they find themselves in need of a specific mineral. No, it does not. You mine ALL the ore in the anomaly so you can get another anomaly. Please understand that. It has been distorting the mineral supply in the game for years. Null miners DO NOT get to choose what ore they mine, they are spoon fed what to mine by game mechanics. This may be the most crucial point in this thread, and I don't know that CCP has ever really come to grips with it. With the current anomaly mechanics, there are no "meaningful" choices to be made. Even if you are desperately in need of mexallon, you spend a huge chunk of time mining other things (such as the Giant Spodumain rock), just so you can kill the current anomaly and get a new one with the ores that you actually want. |
Jagoff Haverford
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
145
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 12:13:19 -
[96] - Quote
I know that I'm probably cheating a bit by posting a copy of what I just put up on Reddit, but:
One very interesting change here is Mexallon. It used to be very hard to get in null sec. The best ore for it (Plagioclase) simply didn't spawn in many null systems' regular belts, and there was a very limited amount of it in 0.0 anomalies. It was also widely available in high sec, and it was nearly impossible to avoid importing it if you wanted to build in 0.0.
With these changes, the best ore for Mexallon suddenly shifts to Gneiss. And not just by a little bit, either. On a per-cubic-meter basis, Gneiss out-performs Plagioclase by a whopping 57% in the production of Mexallon. For comparison, it currently produces 30% less Mexallon (per cubic meter or ore) than Plagioclase.
Null also overtakes high sec in having sole access to the best-performing sources of Isogen (now Dark Ochre, where it used to be Omber) and Nocxium (now Crokite, where it used to be a very close race between Hemorphite and Jaspet). Null sec also becomes the sole source of all Zydrine (mostly in Bistot) and Megacyte (mostly in Arkonor) in the entire game. This was largely true before, although there was a token amount of Zydrine in low sec Jaspet, Hemorphite, and Hedbergitie (as if anyone was mining there).
Basically, high sec's advantages will now be limited entirely to Tritanium (Veldspar is still the best source) and Pyerite (Scordite). The high sec advantage for Tritanium has shrunk a bit. Veldspar used to be 69% better than Spodumain in terms of Tritanium production (again, on a per-cubic-meter basis), but now it will be just 19% better.
Oddly enough, the high sec advantage for Pyerite actually increases with these changes. Scordite used to be just 11% better than Bistot in producing Pyerite. Under the new system, Scordite will best it's next-nearest competitor -- Spodumain, followed closely by Bistot -- by 53%. In this case, however, there will still be plenty of Scordite available in all regular belts throughout null sec, and the amount that will come from the anomaly-provided Spodumain and Bistot will likely be sufficient for most manufacturing.
In short, a pretty big nerf to the isk/hour of high sec mining, especially in the regions where Plagioclase is widely available. |
Hoogen Blaaghen
Iaccurate Declaration Of Taxable Income
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 12:23:13 -
[97] - Quote
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rod0ipDyfrzFYIQ5_RxVWylKuhyPzJChyPrvAQbK61s/edit#gid=0
Shows the change in ore value with these changes. |
Sturmwolke
639
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 12:24:20 -
[98] - Quote
Mineral market showed a massive abnormal volume spike for Zydrine and Megacyte starting Apr 1st in Jita/Amarr. If this change is posted on the 14th and had not been leaked through any other means (i.e Twitter etc.) 2 weeks EARLIER, then you may want to check where that leak is with IA. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
5153
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 12:26:06 -
[99] - Quote
Jagoff Haverford wrote:Null also overtakes high sec in having sole access to the best-performing sources of Isogen (now Dark Ochre, where it used to be Omber)
Not that anyone ever mined omber, as it has, /by far/ the lowest isk/m3 of any ore.
Currently 193 isk/m3, compared to the next lowest of Veld at 238 (atm. Prices have adjusted. But these are from the mineral prices, at 100% refine)
Woo! CSM X!
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1576
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 12:31:10 -
[100] - Quote
Sturmwolke wrote:Mineral market showed a massive abnormal volume spike for Zydrine and Megacyte starting Apr 1st in Jita/Amarr. If this change is posted on the 14th and had not been leaked through any other means (i.e Twitter etc.) 2 weeks EARLIER, then you may want to check where that leak is with IA. Mining changes were first announced during Fanfest, on March 19th. That's when I, personally, got in.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
|
Shing Fun
Pink Fairy Club Iron Sky.
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 12:35:17 -
[101] - Quote
Sturmwolke wrote:Mineral market showed a massive abnormal volume spike for Zydrine and Megacyte starting Apr 1st in Jita/Amarr. If this change is posted on the 14th and had not been leaked through any other means (i.e Twitter etc.) 2 weeks EARLIER, then you may want to check where that leak is with IA.
And in the Eve Online Show on the 1st April it was stated that in nearly every Bluprint the need amount of Zydrin /Megacyte will be doubled. Thats the Zydrin/Megacyte Spike you see. |
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
963
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 12:35:44 -
[102] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:CCP you should compensate highsec ore so our real income doesn't drop. As, usual you put not the slightest thought to "balancing" highsec ore or you just straight up don't care that you are transferring our ISK to the nullsec cartels.
Btw, what you should do is make lowsec ore more valuable and leave nullore where it is now. Lowsec is where the real challenge is in mining and according to your mantra of risk vs reward lowsec ore should be carrlying the highest premium in the game.
You do realise there goes a whole lot of groupwork into turning a certain system into *mineable* beforehand? In highsec, you chose system, travel there with an orca and start huffing rocks. In Lowsec, you can use one of those stations that are in about any system, no effort required. In sov-null, you got a whole bunch of people conquering the region, building or sorting infrastructure, because of how complex sov-null can be possibly so much more stuff you don't even see on first glimpse, that having more than just the same you could mine in comfort space is all but wrong. The organization that usually goes into nullsec mining should not only be more profitable potentially, but generally. The same way the best refining yield should only be avaiable to those who invest, the same should be the case with rocks themselves.
Currently, afk-mining in total security in highsec can be achieved by choosing a procurer. No one is ever going to bother. In nullsec currently, one of those miners in a wingwarp position atleast has to be watching local, cause if no one notices the neut in local for 15-20 seconds, one of your guys is tackled and a sabre about to land (fyi that's a ship that aoe-scrams your mining fleet, and warpstabs don't work), and if fortune aligns for the ceptor pilot and he got you spotted on the second or third dscan, even that might be to late for atleast one/two of your barges.
The resulting meta-gaming about nullmining in way-back systems and giant bubblebunkers is a ***** solution, but as much as I hate it I see it's useful and legit gameplay. Even here the investments made into securing your mining OP are obviously on a different level than parking your orca on a friendly station. |
Pokket Sez
Danneskjold Repossessions.
6
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 12:46:02 -
[103] - Quote
Please remove the upgraded versions of each ore (+5% and +10%), we just don't need 100 versions of the some ore. Its 2015! |
Tenchi Sal
White Knights of Equestria
237
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 12:47:08 -
[104] - Quote
Now that lets get those Rorquals and Orcas back out on the field. For to long people have been able to start their ships behind pos shields, make an easily joinable fleet, and buff the fleet while they are off at work or school. Every 2-3 ships being boosted is an extra mining vessel worth of ore being harvested. All that extra generated ore is coming in while the booster isn't even home. Its similar to botting. This works the same for hisec players who have an Orca in an npc corp sitting at a station buffing everyone while they are gone. With the revamp and the higher isk coming in for null players, its time to choose to risk vs reward. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1576
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 12:53:00 -
[105] - Quote
Cixi wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:As expected, hisec mining is completely rekt. Thanks Mike, you've proven to be an armor fit laser drake of a CSM once again.
Now who has the biggest bot fleet wins eve mineral rush. Minerals prices are already falling jita. I guess if you pointedly ignore zydrine and megacyte, this might be true.
FYI: The point of these changes is to boost highends and make lowends drop.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1577
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 13:06:49 -
[106] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Miners tend to do so because they enjoy it/enjoy building stuff from their proceeds.
This assumption is dangerously weak. Profit is absolutely a major carrot for miners in all areas of space.
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: With this change going ahead it may be an idea to add some of the most rare rocks in small amounts into hard to scan anomalies in hisec and losec for explorers to go find. Then some of the isk transfer is mitigated, production issues in nullsec are mitigated and new sites are added for explorers to find and exploit putting more pilots in space whilst rewarding actual effort more.
These already exist; they are called wormholes.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1577
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 13:12:20 -
[107] - Quote
Pokket Sez wrote:Please remove the upgraded versions of each ore (+5% and +10%), we just don't need 100 versions of the some ore. Its 2015! My idea for this was to make it so +5%/+10% variants, when compressed, output the +0% variant, but with +5%/+10% more of the +0% compressed variant output as a result.
However, there's some merit to the argument that compressed +5%/+10% variants allow for greater mineral compression, so this idea has little merit of its own. Oh well.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Dentia Caecus
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 13:17:59 -
[108] - Quote
I like the thrust of these changes; will you add just a touch more mex, please. |
Elana Apgar
DarkMatter-Industries Upholders
33
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 13:26:15 -
[109] - Quote
Drone Plague wrote:Null mining will not be a thing until you make it possible. Currently an interceptor can be in system and in the belt/anoms in under 30 seconds. change them so that all belts/anoms need to be scanned down first.
Null mining will also not be viable until you fix the Rorqual. Currently, it is a useless capital as it not even any good for pos deployment anymore.
The interceptors are fine, anyone paying attention can get out of a belt before they get there.
HOWEVER
The special ore belts that we once had to scan down and are now anoms should go back to being scanned down. It adds a little cushion of safety for wormhole miners and null sec miners, and makes people work a little harder for their content/kills. |
Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1332
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 13:26:31 -
[110] - Quote
Pokket Sez wrote:Please remove the upgraded versions of each ore (+5% and +10%), we just don't need 100 versions of the some ore. Its 2015! Then don't mine the variations or only mine the variations. For all the other people who do mine them, especially in riskier areas of High sec, for instance, they are a a reasonable increase in reward for the slightly greater risk. Back in 2013, when I mined a bit as a solo, unboosted Mackinawer, I exclusively gathered the variations and made nice money from them while all the big Hulk-Orca hordes went for the bigger, richer normal roids. They usually concentrated on these rocks and I could mine alongside their fleets and we would not interfere with each other. That is a great benefit of the variations. There are all in all 48 ore variations and not hundreds. If you mine in Null sec, you are left with only 7 ores (21 variations) to mine in order to satisfy your needs. With all the tools available to take over calculation and estimation of mineral requirements for the production, it's not too hard of a task to coordinate miners accordingly.
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
|
|
NEONOVUS
Diabolically Sexy Eureka-Secret Science R Us
986
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 13:39:22 -
[111] - Quote
Have you considered adding more minerals to T2 production? Currently it seems a bit odd that most of them just use morphite as a mineral and rely on the t1 mineral count.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1577
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 14:09:04 -
[112] - Quote
NEONOVUS wrote:Have you considered adding more minerals to T2 production? Currently it seems a bit odd that most of them just use morphite as a mineral and rely on the t1 mineral count.
Most (if not all) T2 items have a T1 item as one of their ingredients, so the mineral cost is baked in already.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Eodp Ellecon
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
17
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 14:09:22 -
[113] - Quote
1. Please fix the skill tree for Mercoxit. As is, it is possible that you can refine it but not mine it, Or mine it poorly and not refine it. It is useful and sensible that an industrialist be able to refine without mining skills so that should remain down the line. Since access alone is an issue to certain rocks we could tiercide the skill requirements for T2 crystals of the higher value null ores (Reprocessing Efficiency V GÇô angry debate here we come).
The old scan-for-anoms was tedious for new players, and diffused a skill path of interest, taking even longer to gain access into this entry portion of EVE. Yes, new players mine in null sometimes and the tease of scanned anoms over belts was silly. Do not bring this back unless you have a 99% reduction scan reduction utility slot on all mining ships.
Miners tend to fall in three groups:
A) The Solo-multiboxer who is his own booster and fleet and doesnGÇÖt open up fleet to others. They eat all the rocks indiscriminately.
B) More rarely the AFK booster Fleet. Whereby people come and go through the day. Useful, casual, social. Tend to mine out anoms in null and belts in HS but is very system-centric.
C) The Solo miner due to location or time zone. DoesnGÇÖt get boosts which makes mining painful. These are the only people that do what Fozzie thinks peeps do regarding mining specific rocks for specific minerals. Preposterous proposal would be a GÇÿT3 minerGÇÖ that could mindlink boost solo or small fleets.
The compressed variants - +5 +10 - are at least useful to Trade for arbitrage disparities as well as focused import needs. Somewhat tedious but should remain at this point.
Today Crokite is the Zydrine producer and for some reason Bistot will become so (WHY the flip?). With the proposed anom volumes just between Crokite to Bistot, all but 1 proposed future Bistot volume is below current Crokite, is an additional reduction to Zydrine supply beyond the proposed BPO demand increase.
Couple of years ago buffs to Spod went into place to offset the Trit values added for new ship mass making a meh rock better over time. Jaspet is the new purposeless rock.
TY, Eo
Got as far as pg 3 at least.
|
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Intrepid Crossing
1696
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 14:13:02 -
[114] - Quote
Scale mining yield (m3/sec) to system sec, and suddenly you'll have miners in lowsec, nullsec, and yes, whs. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1577
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 14:20:45 -
[115] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Scale mining yield (m3/sec) to system sec, and suddenly you'll have miners in lowsec, nullsec, and yes, whs. This already happens. Ore prospecting sites spawn +5% variants from -0.45 to -0.849999 security status, and +10% variant sites spawn from -0.85 to -1.00.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1690
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 14:28:52 -
[116] - Quote
Querns wrote:sabre906 wrote:Scale mining yield (m3/sec) to system sec, and suddenly you'll have miners in lowsec, nullsec, and yes, whs. This already happens. Ore prospecting sites spawn +5% variants from -0.45 to -0.849999 security status, and +10% variant sites spawn from -0.85 to -1.00.
Those ratio should probably be greater than 5% and 10%. Then it might not sound so god damn awful to mine a veldspar rocks in null. You can keep a little bit of those more valuable rocks in HS if variation is important but they should have a much greater spawn rate in lower security space. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1577
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 14:30:37 -
[117] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Querns wrote:sabre906 wrote:Scale mining yield (m3/sec) to system sec, and suddenly you'll have miners in lowsec, nullsec, and yes, whs. This already happens. Ore prospecting sites spawn +5% variants from -0.45 to -0.849999 security status, and +10% variant sites spawn from -0.85 to -1.00. Those ratio should probably be greater than 5% and 10%. Then it might not sound so god damn awful to mine a veldspar rocks in null. You can keep a little bit of those more valuable rocks in HS if variation is important but they should have a much greater spawn rate in lower security space. Good thing they are removing veldspar rocks from ore prospecting sites (along with all other high/low ores.)
If you mine belts for any reason other than to cherry pick A/B/M or to bootstrap a new mining system, you're objectively Doing It Wrong.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1717
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 14:42:11 -
[118] - Quote
Sturmwolke wrote:Mineral market showed a massive abnormal volume spike for Zydrine and Megacyte starting Apr 1st in Jita/Amarr. If this change is posted on the 14th and had not been leaked through any other means (i.e Twitter etc.) 2 weeks EARLIER, then you may want to check where that leak is with IA.
We started buying zyd/mega last year. OMG it must be LEAKS!
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.
Creator of Burn Jita
Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
|
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1048
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 14:45:31 -
[119] - Quote
Why Even Bother, the Gewbal Got There First |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1091
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 15:05:23 -
[120] - Quote
Querns wrote: This assumption is dangerously weak. Profit is absolutely a major carrot for miners in all areas of space.
They do it for reasons other than pure profit as there are many better and much faster ways to make money than mining. They could make more isk mining in null right now under the blue doughnut yet they don't. They don't want to be in nullsec and won't be forced down there so the net result of moving isk from hisec to null will be lost subscriptions. The hisec players pay to play the game too yet we see improved yields in one area of space with the rare ores remaining unavailable in others. This won't encourage many more people to go mine in null as they simply don't want to be there otherwise they already would.
Querns wrote: These already exist; they are called wormholes.
[/quote] Which are fine for those with the time and real life commitments that allow them to do so, but many players in hisec stay there because they love the game but wouldn't have the time to commit to going into WH's. This would be a means of providing a limited supply of high-ends in a competitive setting. |
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1577
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 15:28:06 -
[121] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Querns wrote: This assumption is dangerously weak. Profit is absolutely a major carrot for miners in all areas of space.
They do it for reasons other than pure profit as there are many better and much faster ways to make money than mining. They could make more isk mining in null right now under the blue doughnut yet they don't. They don't want to be in nullsec and won't be forced down there so the net result of moving isk from hisec to null will be lost subscriptions. The hisec players pay to play the game too yet we see improved yields in one area of space with the rare ores remaining unavailable in others. This won't encourage many more people to go mine in null as they simply don't want to be there otherwise they already would. Laughing at the blue donut thing when we completely destroyed the N3 coalition, caused NpCdock to abandon sov altogether, and announced our intentions to not only withdraw from their holdings, but also to cede 2 of our own regions in the process. Could you be any further behind in politics?
The point of nullsec being more lucrative is that it is commensurate with increased risk. If you want to stay in your highsec playpen, you must necessarily accept lower reward in the bargain. It's just how the game works.
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Querns wrote: These already exist; they are called wormholes.
Which are fine for those with the time and real life commitments that allow them to do so, but many players in hisec stay there because they love the game but wouldn't have the time to commit to going into WH's. This would be a means of providing a limited supply of high-ends in a competitive setting. Daytripping does not require the kind of commitment you are describing.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Decaneos
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
132
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 15:51:29 -
[122] - Quote
So syndicate is still going to be really bad as is by the looks of this all of npc null while at the same time penalizing anyone not living in sov space by increase the amount of minerals needed.
when i asked about this i was told all minerals would be available throughout null, looking at this its a huge back step and even a nerf to a large portion of nullsec mining and manufacturing in anywhere that's not sov.
sry but these changes are horrible was expecting more. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1092
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 16:05:48 -
[123] - Quote
Querns wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Querns wrote: This assumption is dangerously weak. Profit is absolutely a major carrot for miners in all areas of space.
They do it for reasons other than pure profit as there are many better and much faster ways to make money than mining. They could make more isk mining in null right now under the blue doughnut yet they don't. They don't want to be in nullsec and won't be forced down there so the net result of moving isk from hisec to null will be lost subscriptions. The hisec players pay to play the game too yet we see improved yields in one area of space with the rare ores remaining unavailable in others. This won't encourage many more people to go mine in null as they simply don't want to be there otherwise they already would. Laughing at the blue donut thing when we completely destroyed the N3 coalition, caused NpCdock to abandon sov altogether, and announced our intentions to not only withdraw from their holdings, but also to cede 2 of our own regions in the process. Could you be any further behind in politics? The point of nullsec being more lucrative is that it is commensurate with increased risk. If you want to stay in your highsec playpen, you must necessarily accept lower reward in the bargain. It's just how the game works. Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Querns wrote: These already exist; they are called wormholes.
Which are fine for those with the time and real life commitments that allow them to do so, but many players in hisec stay there because they love the game but wouldn't have the time to commit to going into WH's. This would be a means of providing a limited supply of high-ends in a competitive setting. Daytripping does not require the kind of commitment you are describing.
Note that I don't mine now, I'm just arguing the side of the hisec folks since they are being increasingly marginalized in terms of how they can make a profit. We'll see how this all shakes out of course but I don't believe that forcing people to move to lower sec regions to be able to make any kind of profit is a good plan. It should take a lot more effort in hisec to make a reasonable return of course since the risk is much lower but that is already the case. Risk/reward is always bandied around but I believe it should be considered as effort/risk/reward.
As for nullsec politics I couldn't give a **** about it right now. The alliances down there can throw billions upon billions of ships around in huge fleet battles and rightly so as they have carved out their own space. No-one is going to believe cries of being hard done by though when they see the vast amounts of assets in play. |
Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1401
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 16:10:07 -
[124] - Quote
Decaneos wrote:So syndicate is still going to be really bad as is by the looks of this all of npc null while at the same time penalizing anyone not living in sov space by increase the amount of minerals needed.
when i asked about this i was told all minerals would be available throughout null, looking at this its a huge back step and even a nerf to a large portion of nullsec mining and manufacturing in anywhere that's not sov.
sry but these changes are horrible was expecting more.
You asked the wrong person then. Be careful not to ask people who don't know what they are talking about.
I guess the NPC dwellers (including me probably within a few weeks) will just have to be satisfied with not having to defend our space for 4 hours a day and having mission agents available. Oh the humanity.
How much mining goes on in non sov regions anyway? A quick glance at Dotlan numbers suggests that there's fuckall in terms of people actively living in full NPC nullsec regions excepting Syndicate, and I for one wouldn't want to try mining in that region. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1577
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 16:12:01 -
[125] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Note that I don't mine now, I'm just arguing the side of the hisec folks since they are being increasingly marginalized in terms of how they can make a profit. We'll see how this all shakes out of course but I don't believe that forcing people to move to lower sec regions to be able to make any kind of profit is a good plan. It should take a lot more effort in hisec to make a reasonable return of course since the risk is much lower but that is already the case. Risk/reward is always bandied around but I believe it should be considered as effort/risk/reward.
As for nullsec politics I couldn't give a **** about it right now. The alliances down there can throw billions upon billions of ships around in huge fleet battles and rightly so as they have carved out their own space. No-one is going to believe cries of being hard done by though when they see the vast amounts of assets in play. Nullsec mining being more profitable does not force anyone to do anything. It simply provides a carrot to encourage people to accept the risk and put themselves out in the more dangerous areas of space.
The point about nullsec politics is that you're using mental shortcuts like "blue donut" to describe things that you truly do not understand. This does not help your case at all. "Blue donut" loses a lot of meaning when we are literally at war, destroying other parts of nullsec. It's an outmoded term and you'd do well to discard it from future posts.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Eodp Ellecon
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
17
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 17:05:13 -
[126] - Quote
NEONOVUS wrote:Have you considered adding more minerals to T2 production? Currently it seems a bit odd that most of them just use morphite as a mineral and rely on the t1 mineral count.
As said before, many items roll a T1 into the T2 production.
T2 already has added expense of Advanced Moon Material needs of which racial specialties + Ferrogel were added on top of that about 2 years ago. So there's already plenty of added material and logistic complexity with T2 production. At least at that point they removed stuffs from the 'additional materials' list.
|
Siigari Kitawa
Magic Minerals
385
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 17:08:30 -
[127] - Quote
I'm honestly confused about Dark Ochre. Why is it so overloaded on Isogen with nearly no Nocxium? All of the ore colors are going to need to change to represent the downward value of ores.
More like "Cerulean Ochre" am I right? :|
Need stuff moved? Push Industries will handle it.
Serving highsec, lowsec and nullsec - and we do it faster and more reliably than anyone else.
Ingame channel: PUSHX
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1583
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 17:10:57 -
[128] - Quote
Siigari Kitawa wrote:I'm honestly confused about Dark Ochre. Why is it so overloaded on Isogen with nearly no Nocxium? As a matter of fact, no ore on your new chart focuses on Nocx, and that's a bit frustrating.
More like "Cerulean Ochre" am I right? :| Take a second look at the Crokite comp -- it is receiving nearly triple the amount of nocx compared to now.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1402
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 17:12:24 -
[129] - Quote
Siigari Kitawa wrote:I'm honestly confused about Dark Ochre. Why is it so overloaded on Isogen with nearly no Nocxium? All of the ore colors are going to need to change to represent the downward value of ores.
More like "Cerulean Ochre" am I right? :| Crokite has over 6 times as much Nocxium as the next highest ore.... So there's that.
Ehhh, seeing that Quern sniped me, I may as well offer my two cents worth to make this a non useless post.
Yeah nvm I got nothing. Depending where my alliance lands, I may actuality end up mining now. It's certainly going to make carting around compressed ore to refine at staging systems a lot easier than before. |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
167
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 17:35:50 -
[130] - Quote
Querns wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Note that I don't mine now, I'm just arguing the side of the hisec folks since they are being increasingly marginalized in terms of how they can make a profit. We'll see how this all shakes out of course but I don't believe that forcing people to move to lower sec regions to be able to make any kind of profit is a good plan. It should take a lot more effort in hisec to make a reasonable return of course since the risk is much lower but that is already the case. Risk/reward is always bandied around but I believe it should be considered as effort/risk/reward.
As for nullsec politics I couldn't give a **** about it right now. The alliances down there can throw billions upon billions of ships around in huge fleet battles and rightly so as they have carved out their own space. No-one is going to believe cries of being hard done by though when they see the vast amounts of assets in play. Nullsec mining being more profitable does not force anyone to do anything. It simply provides a carrot to encourage people to accept the risk and put themselves out in the more dangerous areas of space. The point about nullsec politics is that you're using mental shortcuts like "blue donut" to describe things that you truly do not understand. This does not help your case at all. "Blue donut" loses a lot of meaning when we are literally at war, destroying other parts of nullsec. It's an outmoded term and you'd do well to discard it from future posts.
Blue donut mining is a lot safer than hisec. It's not a carrot, it's a stick right up the rear of every non-bot hisec miner. Grats on encouraging deklein bot fleets, CCP Lapdog.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
|
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1583
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 17:38:31 -
[131] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote: Blue donut mining is a lot safer than hisec. It's not a carrot, it's a stick right up the rear of every non-bot hisec miner. Grats on encouraging deklein bot fleets, CCP Lapdog.
Nah.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2258
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 17:48:47 -
[132] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Blue donut mining is a lot safer than hisec. It's not a carrot, it's a stick right up the rear of every non-bot hisec miner. Grats on encouraging deklein bot fleets, CCP Lapdog. Buzzword check: Blue donut Botting CCP-(fanboy)
well written response, thank you for your time. |
Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
230
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 19:01:22 -
[133] - Quote
NEONOVUS wrote:Have you considered adding more minerals to T2 production? Currently it seems a bit odd that most of them just use morphite as a mineral and rely on the t1 mineral count.
I think this guy wants to push the cost of jump freighters to 10 bil. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
289
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 19:08:50 -
[134] - Quote
Decaneos wrote:So syndicate is still going to be really bad as is by the looks of this all of npc null while at the same time penalizing anyone not living in sov space by increase the amount of minerals needed.
when i asked about this i was told all minerals would be available throughout null, looking at this its a huge back step and even a nerf to a large portion of nullsec mining and manufacturing in anywhere that's not sov.
sry but these changes are horrible was expecting more.
So NPC null regions are worse than a fully upgraded sov system.
NEWS AT 11
***
There has to be disparity between not only NPC and sov regions, but between different sov regions themselves, otherwise the Blue Donut is 4 Lyfe.
Anyone know whether these ore anomalies are all the same across all sov space? If so, then moon resources are the only differentiating factor here.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Valterra Craven
534
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 19:11:51 -
[135] - Quote
Jagoff Haverford wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote: It also makes it much easier for players to decide what ore to mine if they find themselves in need of a specific mineral. No, it does not. You mine ALL the ore in the anomaly so you can get another anomaly. Please understand that. It has been distorting the mineral supply in the game for years. Null miners DO NOT get to choose what ore they mine, they are spoon fed what to mine by game mechanics. This may be the most crucial point in this thread, and I don't know that CCP has ever really come to grips with it. With the current anomaly mechanics, there are no "meaningful choices" to be made in null sec mining. Even if you are desperately in need of mexallon, you spend a huge chunk of time mining other things (such as the Giant Spodumain rock), just so you can kill the current anomaly and get a new one with the ores that you actually want.
I agree. The thing about this is that CCP creates problems with every new content addition. Drone regions game into being, mineral problems came into being, anoms came into being, more problems came into being. And with every fix they put out they only continue to band aid the problem.
The solution is not to continue adding band aides the solution is to fix the problem. So if the problem is that the whole anom has to be mined to get a new one, then why not just allow players to "destroy" the anoms that are present. Aka allow 5-10 people 10-20minutes to destroy an anom either with an entosis link somehow are with smartbombs. Just allow roids to be destroy by other things besides mining lasers. And guess what, this also opens up new content for pvpers because now they can literally salt the fields of other people's space! Win Win. |
Bubbleup Now
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 19:20:23 -
[136] - Quote
Zappity wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:We continue to believe that no area of space should be completely independent of any other, but there is a lot of room to make nullsec more self sufficient and improve the opportunities for zero-sec miners and industrialists. Fozzie, could you briefly expand on this? Do you think that this balance pass will result in greater local null production but retain some dependence on other space?
I would also ask if you would talk briefly about your thoughts on lowsec mining and how it should fit into the mining picture overall. Right now there is a lot of discussion about high sec mining vs. null sec mining, and how the latter needs a boost, but low sec mining has very little margin in it now, with similar risks to null sec mining. While easier to source low ends from nearby systems (typically) many pirate miners are confined to lowsec for sec status reasons. Must the minerals of New Eden be angry at us for sec status issues, just like faction navies do? |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
5154
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 19:23:53 -
[137] - Quote
Bubbleup Now wrote:Zappity wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:We continue to believe that no area of space should be completely independent of any other, but there is a lot of room to make nullsec more self sufficient and improve the opportunities for zero-sec miners and industrialists. Fozzie, could you briefly expand on this? Do you think that this balance pass will result in greater local null production but retain some dependence on other space? I would also ask if you would talk briefly about your thoughts on lowsec mining and how it should fit into the mining picture overall. Right now there is a lot of discussion about high sec mining vs. null sec mining, and how the latter needs a boost, but low sec mining has very little margin in it now, with similar risks to null sec mining. While easier to source low ends from nearby systems (typically) many pirate miners are confined to lowsec for sec status reasons. Must the minerals of New Eden be angry at us for sec status issues, just like faction navies do?
Well, lowsec ores just received a fair boost.
Woo! CSM X!
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1586
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 19:42:41 -
[138] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Anyone know whether these ore anomalies are all the same across all sov space? If so, then moon resources are the only differentiating factor here. Yes, the ore anomalies are consistent across all sov space.
This only leaves rat type, salvage type, exploration loot type, DED complexes and attendant deadspace loot, officers, racial isotope flavor, capital geography, and distance from Jita to differentiate different parts of nullsec. Oh, and the moongoo, but you got that already.
Truly, this is a tragedy!
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
291
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 19:54:18 -
[139] - Quote
Querns wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Anyone know whether these ore anomalies are all the same across all sov space? If so, then moon resources are the only differentiating factor here. Yes, the ore anomalies are consistent across all sov space.
You got me.
But different flavours of the same PVE stuff doesn't count.
During the early times, all of the 6/7/8/10 DED complexes had a fixing and known location across half a dozen regions, and that fueled conflict.
Then, it was the R32/64 moon materials during the BoB times, and appears to be largely the case nowadays.
This is why you're in Delve right now.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1586
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 20:09:07 -
[140] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Querns wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Anyone know whether these ore anomalies are all the same across all sov space? If so, then moon resources are the only differentiating factor here. Yes, the ore anomalies are consistent across all sov space. You got me. But different flavours of the same PVE stuff doesn't count. During the early times, all of the 6/7/8/10 DED complexes had fixed and known locations across half a dozen regions, and that fueled conflict. Then, it was the R32/64 moon materials during the BoB times, and still appears to be largely the case nowadays. This is why you're in Delve right now. You are pretty bad at understanding contemporary politics, as that does not describe our presence in Delve at all. However, this is hella off-topic. Check reddit for a primer.
It's pretty easy to say ":byodood: ALL NULLSEC IS THE SAME" when you selectively reference the parts of nullsec that are the same while blithely ignoring the parts that are different.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
|
Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
230
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 20:13:50 -
[141] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:Jagoff Haverford wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote: It also makes it much easier for players to decide what ore to mine if they find themselves in need of a specific mineral. No, it does not. You mine ALL the ore in the anomaly so you can get another anomaly. Please understand that. It has been distorting the mineral supply in the game for years. Null miners DO NOT get to choose what ore they mine, they are spoon fed what to mine by game mechanics. This may be the most crucial point in this thread, and I don't know that CCP has ever really come to grips with it. With the current anomaly mechanics, there are no "meaningful choices" to be made in null sec mining. Even if you are desperately in need of mexallon, you spend a huge chunk of time mining other things (such as the Giant Spodumain rock), just so you can kill the current anomaly and get a new one with the ores that you actually want. I agree. The thing about this is that CCP creates problems with every new content addition. Drone regions came into being, mineral problems came into being, anoms came into being, more problems came into being. And with every fix they put out they only continue to band aid the problem. The solution is not to continue adding band aides the solution is to fix the problem. So if the problem is that the whole anom has to be mined to get a new one, then why not just allow players to "destroy" the anoms that are present. Aka allow 5-10 people 10-20minutes to destroy an anom either with an entosis link somehow are with smartbombs. Just allow roids to be destroy by other things besides mining lasers. And guess what, this also opens up new content for pvpers because now they can literally salt the fields of other people's space! Win Win.
you want to grief the mining belts/anon's now.. so instead of blowing up ships, structures, and infrastructure.. you now propose ccp to allow you to doomsday a mining belt.. rofl |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
292
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 20:15:00 -
[142] - Quote
Querns wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Querns wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Anyone know whether these ore anomalies are all the same across all sov space? If so, then moon resources are the only differentiating factor here. Yes, the ore anomalies are consistent across all sov space. You got me. But different flavours of the same PVE stuff doesn't count. During the early times, all of the 6/7/8/10 DED complexes had fixed and known locations across half a dozen regions, and that fueled conflict. Then, it was the R32/64 moon materials during the BoB times, and still appears to be largely the case nowadays. This is why you're in Delve right now. contemporary politics, as that does not describe our presence in Delve at all.
Yes, I have no desire to view it through any official reason given.
http://i.imgur.com/1DGp55L.png
Well, I guess it's better than nothing - I just wish more resource types would be differentiated in a similar way.
Exact ore anomalies everywhere seems like cheese.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2418
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 20:25:14 -
[143] - Quote
Loving the changes!
I'd like to see Mercoxit become a very dense ore, valuable in small volumes, but found in small amounts sporadically and spread out. This would make ore hunting in a Prospect useful, as it could store a good haul of Mercoxit, were the ore a lot smaller compared to the morphite yield.
A Caldari is just a Gallente who begged to have their civil liberties taken away.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1586
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 20:34:35 -
[144] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Yes, I have no desire to view it through any official reason given. http://i.imgur.com/1DGp55L.png Well, I guess it's better than nothing - I just wish more resource types would be differentiated in a similar way. Exact ore anomalies everywhere seems like cheese. I'm sure that exacerbated ignorance and myopia will serve you well in life.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
292
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 20:47:52 -
[145] - Quote
Querns wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Yes, I have no desire to view it through any official reason given. http://i.imgur.com/1DGp55L.png Well, I guess it's better than nothing - I just wish more resource types would be differentiated in a similar way. Exact ore anomalies everywhere seems like cheese. will serve you well in life.
It certainly does.
We'll see whether the resource disparity is enough for donuts to be served as the main course this Summer and throughout the year - especially in the South-East.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Valterra Craven
534
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 21:04:50 -
[146] - Quote
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
you want to grief the mining belts/anon's now.. so instead of blowing up ships, structures, and infrastructure.. you now propose ccp to allow you to doomsday a mining belt.. rofl
Not me personally, no. I left the cesspool that is nullsec a long time ago. Also, your analogy is pretty disingenuous since doomsdays aren't aoe and can't even target everything universally like sub caps can. Though I do like the idea of stealth bombers being able to bomb anoms.
Besides, the lol factor, you haven't actually pointed out why this is a bad idea. Bombing strategic resources like mines etc in WWII made since, so why wouldn't it make since in this context? |
FireFrenzy
Satan's Unicorns
327
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 21:28:39 -
[147] - Quote
Wait...
They are doubling the "high value" ore in everything and not dropping other mineral use?
YAY FOR MOAR EXPENSIVE EVERTYTHING!
Or have i grossly misread something? |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1587
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 21:30:32 -
[148] - Quote
FireFrenzy wrote:Wait...
They are doubling the "high value" ore in everything and not dropping other mineral use?
YAY FOR MOAR EXPENSIVE EVERTYTHING!
Or have i grossly misread something? You're not far off the mark, but you're overestimating the impact a little. Doubling zyd/mega does not significantly increase the cost of a finished good, because so little of the minerals are used compared to trit/pyer/etc. I'm not a titan builder myself, but one I spoke to said that the change would only add 1-2b to a titan's cost (about 80b today). Scale down the impact to smaller goods appropriately.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1403
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 21:36:43 -
[149] - Quote
Querns wrote:FireFrenzy wrote:Wait...
They are doubling the "high value" ore in everything and not dropping other mineral use?
YAY FOR MOAR EXPENSIVE EVERTYTHING!
Or have i grossly misread something? You're not far off the mark, but you're overestimating the impact a little. Doubling zyd/mega does not significantly increase the cost of a finished good, because so little of the minerals are used compared to trit/pyer/etc. I'm not a titan builder myself, but one I spoke to said that the change would only add 1-2b to a titan's cost (about 80b today). Scale down the impact to smaller goods appropriately.
Eh, proportionately capitals use less highends than smaller ships and modules do, but even in the small stuff if it's more than a 5-8% increase I'd be surprised. |
DINGDONG DING
Offensive Dynamics Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 21:55:19 -
[150] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:1Robert McNamara1 wrote:There goes my ore transportation business... Good.
Are the high sec ores going to retain their current mix?
I disagree with removing the varieties of ore (suggested above). If I remember correctly the higher value rocks are only in asteroid belts and their improved compression is a boon to transporters. It may be a 'boon to transporters' right until the industrialists have to deal with 3 different compressed ore varieties per ore as a result. The saving in micromanagement from removing all 5% & 10% ores and changing it so that you actually just mine 5% & 10% more of the normal ore is worth a small increase in transportation issue, especially since compression can now be done at any POS, station or outpost, making it vastly easier to transport Ore in general.
compression can not be done at a station or outpost unless you know of a way explain...
"compression can now be done at any POS, station or outpost," |
|
DINGDONG DING
Offensive Dynamics Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 22:00:28 -
[151] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Ok serious post.
Has anyone at CCP considered just what the changes to Megacyte production cost is going to do to HS Production? There is no "mining" source of Megacyte in HS, the markets in highsec only hold a supply 25% of current demand. After changes the market supply will be effectively 12.5%. The only source of HS Megacyte was gun minning which CCP nerfed by nearly 45% last year. It doesn't take a degree in math to show that a 200% increase to the requirements of Megacyte are impractical and unsustainable at current levels, let alone when you compound future changes to Sov, any Fatigue Rebalancing.
HS will need a source of Megacyte, as will Lowsec. If the goal is to make self sufficiency a thing, then it should be applied to all areas of space. Otherwise.
Its game over man, game over.
Don't get me wrong i like changes to sov, and i like these changes, but this is only going to nuke HS production.
how about refine mission loot. you guys in high sec do have unlimited missions you can farm and refine to get high ends easy.... ccp is not reducing mega or zydrin you get . but in a way doubling it |
DINGDONG DING
Offensive Dynamics Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 22:01:24 -
[152] - Quote
FireFrenzy wrote:Wait...
They are doubling the "high value" ore in everything and not dropping other mineral use?
YAY FOR MOAR EXPENSIVE EVERTYTHING!
Or have i grossly misread something?
rfining mods and ammo form loots will yield more mega and zydrine.. tooo... |
GetSirrus
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
92
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 22:05:47 -
[153] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:These changes are intended to make Nullsec more self sufficient then it is currently. We continue to believe that no area of space should be completely independent of any other, but there is a lot of room to make nullsec more self sufficient and improve the opportunities for zero-sec miners and industrialists.
And nothing here addresses just how much mining is the most maligned activity in the game. Mining is the entry point of industry.
The thing missing from your sov survey is why is the space valued by a player. Would you like to take a guess at how many respond "for the ores"? |
Axe Coldon
59
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 22:18:10 -
[154] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Vincent Athena wrote: No, it does not. You mine ALL the ore in the anomaly so you can get another anomaly.
You know, I heard a rumour there are these things called static belts in Null, that have even more in them than highsec, and a mix of all the ores as well. And given there are even more null systems than high, and high has no industrial anoms.... this must mean that all the ore that null currently imports could easily just come from their static belts. You just won't be satisfied till CCP gives you absolute perfect braindead mining in the anoms will you? It's already been just handed to you on a silver platter needing only slight balancing, now you want it on the gold platter with platinum inlay as well.
There is a problem mining the normal belts in null, the ores you mine out don't repop daily like they do in high sec. And I tested this just last week. In high if you mine out a kernite ore, tomorrow it will be back. In null it won't. Near as I figure they repop the ores in the normal belts 2x a week in null.
So for any serious daily mining, you are stuck with the index belts.
Main problem with mining is isk per hour. but as there is no shortage of ore atm, I guess miners are happy with what they make or they wouldn't be mining.
I would vote for scannable index belts. It was much safer to mine them. You only had to worry about the pro's that bookmarked it and came back later. but my favorite part about scannable belts, once you popped a belt, and new one shows up in 5 minutes..all bm's are invalid. New Location. And if someone came in system, you had more reaction time because they had to scan you down first. Those were the good ole days.
As for industry in null, having to not import ores will be good..but null will still remain a major exporter of ore even so. Its just not safe to travel in null like it is in high. There are no regional hubs in Null. And with the capital range nerf, only JF's can easily jump around to get stuff. Before your average pilot in a carrier could jump quite a distance to get hulls and materials if it was available..now that option is out for the most part.
I don't see the ore changes effecting null all that much. But for those that do mine and build in null, it will be easier. And maybe more building will occur.
I would like to see a new class of mining barges that can mount a defense equal to the value of the ship. but I am not sure what they does to the balance of the game.
No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
|
Vertueux Arkaral
DarkMatter-Industries Upholders
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 22:47:20 -
[155] - Quote
Will Ore Prospecting Arrays affect wormholes? |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2261
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 22:53:08 -
[156] - Quote
Vertueux Arkaral wrote:Will Ore Prospecting Arrays affect wormholes? This release? No. Cant get get proper sov in a wh. The ore mineral comps will change though. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1587
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 22:54:01 -
[157] - Quote
Vertueux Arkaral wrote:Will Ore Prospecting Arrays affect wormholes? You can't use infrastructure hubs in wormhole space, so no. It is an accoutrement available only in conquerable nullsec.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2261
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 22:55:21 -
[158] - Quote
FireFrenzy wrote:Wait...
They are doubling the "high value" ore in everything and not dropping other mineral use?
YAY FOR MOAR EXPENSIVE EVERTYTHING!
Or have i grossly misread something? zyd and meg make up miniscule amounts for most builds (excluding things like mining crystals, which are not being changed). So the effect on price will be hardly noticeable compared to an increase in any other mineral. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2261
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 23:00:28 -
[159] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Querns wrote:FireFrenzy wrote:Wait...
They are doubling the "high value" ore in everything and not dropping other mineral use?
YAY FOR MOAR EXPENSIVE EVERTYTHING!
Or have i grossly misread something? You're not far off the mark, but you're overestimating the impact a little. Doubling zyd/mega does not significantly increase the cost of a finished good, because so little of the minerals are used compared to trit/pyer/etc. I'm not a titan builder myself, but one I spoke to said that the change would only add 1-2b to a titan's cost (about 80b today). Scale down the impact to smaller goods appropriately. Eh, proportionately capitals use less highends than smaller ships and modules do, but even in the small stuff if it's more than a 5-8% increase I'd be surprised. I actually have a sheet for the build cost and portions of building a Hel from a few months back (so before and price influences).
Zydrine and Megacyte combined were 0.07% of minerals by volume and 3.16% of the build price. Prices for each zyd and meg were 464 and 850 respectively.
So the impact will definitely be felt for someone who mines high ends primarily, and very little impact on someone who builds with them. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
298
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 23:23:20 -
[160] - Quote
Yes, and depending how awesomeGäó the capship changes are this Summer, prices for minerals like Pye & Mex could fall, constituting no significant net increase in Tech 1 production cost.
No one has died because of a little Mega & Zyd.
Unlike the monthly 2.8 trillion income from Dysprosium.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
|
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
224
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 23:31:50 -
[161] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote:CCP you should compensate highsec ore so our real income doesn't drop. As, usual you put not the slightest thought to "balancing" highsec ore or you just straight up don't care that you are transferring our ISK to the nullsec cartels.
Btw, what you should do is make lowsec ore more valuable and leave nullore where it is now. Lowsec is where the real challenge is in mining and according to your mantra of risk vs reward lowsec ore should be carrlying the highest premium in the game. You do realise there goes a whole lot of groupwork into turning a certain system into *mineable* beforehand? In highsec, you chose system, travel there with an orca and start huffing rocks. In Lowsec, you can use one of those stations that are in about any system, no effort required. In sov-null, you got a whole bunch of people conquering the region, building or sorting infrastructure, because of how complex sov-null can be possibly so much more stuff you don't even see on first glimpse, that having more than just the same you could mine in comfort space is all but wrong. The organization that usually goes into nullsec mining should not only be more profitable potentially, but generally. The same way the best refining yield should only be avaiable to those who invest, the same should be the case with rocks themselves. Currently, afk-mining in total security in highsec can be achieved by choosing a procurer. No one is ever going to bother. In nullsec currently, one of those miners in a wingwarp position atleast has to be watching local, cause if no one notices the neut in local for 15-20 seconds, one of your guys is tackled and a sabre about to land (fyi that's a ship that aoe-scrams your mining fleet, and warpstabs don't work), and if fortune aligns for the ceptor pilot and he got you spotted on the second or third dscan, even that might be to late for atleast one/two of your barges. The resulting meta-gaming about nullmining in way-back systems and giant bubblebunkers is a ***** solution, but as much as I hate it I see it's useful and legit gameplay. Even here the investments made into securing your mining OP are obviously on a different level than parking your orca on a friendly station.
Im not saying nullsec shouldnt make more on ore, as they already have the premium ore that issue has been addressed.
What I'm saying is that highsec mining is already a modest to low income activity and cannot afford to lose more ISK / hr to nullsec.
Btw, even if my mining ship were absolutely invulnerable to any and all attack and interference i would still be making modest to low ISK / hr. Striping more and more income from High to Null like they did with PI and now with Mining is an untenable direction to take the game.
Risk vs reward, Yes! Using this mantra to strip highsec miners of anything resembling fair ISK / hr, NO!
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
|
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
298
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 23:37:08 -
[162] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote: What I'm saying is that highsec mining is already a modest to low income activity and cannot afford to lose more ISK / hr to nullsec.
Btw, even if my mining ship were absolutely invulnerable to any and all attack and interference i would still be making modest to low ISK / hr. Risk vs reward, Yes! Using this mantra to strip highsec miners of anything resembling fair ISK / hr, NO!
That is the issue of Incursions and LVL4s having skewed rewards - but that is a whole can of worms.
No changes to highsec mining will take place without either 1) Completely killing Tech 1 production; 2) Completely reviewing T1 input costs.
TL;DR Would have to lower all required T1 inputs, change ore yields and asteroid volumes of said ores across the whole of New Eden to compensate -> then you could see your ISK/hr go up in Hisec.
But why would we do that.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
224
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 23:43:29 -
[163] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote: What I'm saying is that highsec mining is already a modest to low income activity and cannot afford to lose more ISK / hr to nullsec.
Btw, even if my mining ship were absolutely invulnerable to any and all attack and interference i would still be making modest to low ISK / hr. Risk vs reward, Yes! Using this mantra to strip highsec miners of anything resembling fair ISK / hr, NO!
That is the issue of Incursions and LVL4s having skewed rewards - but that is a whole can of worms. No changes to highsec mining will take place without either 1) Completely killing Tech 1 production; 2) Completely reviewing T1 input costs. TL;DR Would have to lower all required T1 inputs, lower ore yields/mineral compositions of said ores across the whole of New Eden -> then you could see your ISK/hr go up in Hisec. But why would we do that.
This is a discussion about mining and the proposed changes to it, please stay on topic.
This change will deplete nullsec need for highsec ore our incomes will drop. NOTHING else in the game needs to change except the proposed changes for our incomes to drop.
I am NOT asking for my ISK / hr to go up, find any place I asked for that. Im asking for it not to go down.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
|
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
298
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 23:48:09 -
[164] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote: This change will deplete nullsec need for highsec ore our incomes will drop.
Not completely, we'd still have to import certain minerals.
Quote:NOTHING else in the game needs to change except the proposed changes for our incomes to drop.
Yes, indeed your income could drop somewhat.
Quote:I am NOT asking for my ISK / hr to go up, find any place I asked for that. Im asking for it not to go down.
Your saving grace is the coming capital ship rebalance - If demand stays at current levels, you shouldn't see a large decrease to your income; if not...
Oh, well.
Besides, people used to mine when Trit/Pyerite/Mex were 3.8 / 7 / 32 ISK p/u respectively.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2261
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 00:00:51 -
[165] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote: What I'm saying is that highsec mining is already a modest to low income activity and cannot afford to lose more ISK / hr to nullsec.
Btw, even if my mining ship were absolutely invulnerable to any and all attack and interference i would still be making modest to low ISK / hr. Risk vs reward, Yes! Using this mantra to strip highsec miners of anything resembling fair ISK / hr, NO!
That is the issue of Incursions and LVL4s having skewed rewards - but that is a whole can of worms. No changes to highsec mining will take place without either 1) Completely killing Tech 1 production; 2) Completely reviewing T1 input costs. TL;DR Would have to lower all required T1 inputs, lower ore yields/mineral compositions of said ores across the whole of New Eden -> then you could see your ISK/hr go up in Hisec. But why would we do that. This is a discussion about mining and the proposed changes to it, please stay on topic. This change will deplete nullsec need for highsec ore our incomes will drop. NOTHING else in the game needs to change except the proposed changes for our incomes to drop. I am NOT asking for my ISK / hr to go up, find any place I asked for that. Im asking for it not to go down. So, we should just leave null with a heavy dependence on empire ores? Rather than encouraging more null pilots to put more isk down on assets in null? |
Decaneos
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
132
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 00:09:26 -
[166] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Decaneos wrote:So syndicate is still going to be really bad as is by the looks of this all of npc null while at the same time penalizing anyone not living in sov space by increase the amount of minerals needed.
when i asked about this i was told all minerals would be available throughout null, looking at this its a huge back step and even a nerf to a large portion of nullsec mining and manufacturing in anywhere that's not sov.
sry but these changes are horrible was expecting more. So NPC null regions are worse than a fully upgraded sov system. NEWS AT 11 *** There has to be disparity between not only NPC and sov regions, but between different sov regions themselves, otherwise the Blue Donut is 4 Lyfe. Anyone know whether these ore anomalies are all the same across all sov space? If so, then moon resources are the only differentiating factor here.
What i am saying is this is actually a nerf to mining in NPC null sec. in Syndicate there is no access to mega at all and only jaspet is available in the belts for zydrine. Syndicate and other npc nulls have basically the same ores as a 0.4 system. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
298
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 00:14:19 -
[167] - Quote
Decaneos wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Decaneos wrote:So syndicate is still going to be really bad as is by the looks of this all of npc null while at the same time penalizing anyone not living in sov space by increase the amount of minerals needed.
when i asked about this i was told all minerals would be available throughout null, looking at this its a huge back step and even a nerf to a large portion of nullsec mining and manufacturing in anywhere that's not sov.
sry but these changes are horrible was expecting more. So NPC null regions are worse than a fully upgraded sov system. NEWS AT 11 *** There has to be disparity between not only NPC and sov regions, but between different sov regions themselves, otherwise the Blue Donut is 4 Lyfe. Anyone know whether these ore anomalies are all the same across all sov space? If so, then moon resources are the only differentiating factor here. What i am saying is this is actually a nerf to mining in NPC null sec. in Syndicate there is no access to mega at all and only jaspet is available in the belts for zydrine. Syndicate and other npc nulls have basically the same ores as a 0.4 system.
Haven't mined in over a decade. That's curious.
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/region/Syndicate
Crokite appears to be available in certain systems.
That's actually good that Arkonor & Bistot aren't obtainable in NPC null space.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Gyr Altai
Alts Gone Bad
2
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 00:14:42 -
[168] - Quote
Querns wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: With this change going ahead it may be an idea to add some of the most rare rocks in small amounts into hard to scan anomalies in hisec and losec for explorers to go find. Then some of the isk transfer is mitigated, production issues in nullsec are mitigated and new sites are added for explorers to find and exploit putting more pilots in space whilst rewarding actual effort more.
These already exist; they are called wormholes.
Except they aren't hard to scan down because they are insta warp anoms, and no one but the most risk adverse bears who close off all attachments mine in. In a world of at least 2 cloaky proteus in every hole at all times...mining is dumb unless you want to constantly be slaughtered. |
Henry Plantgenet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
24
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 00:25:12 -
[169] - Quote
NPC nullsec areas should have at least as good ores as 0.1. apparently CCP thinks differently. |
Gyr Altai
Alts Gone Bad
2
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 00:27:47 -
[170] - Quote
Eodp Ellecon wrote:
The old scan-for-anoms was tedious for new players, and diffused a skill path of interest, taking even longer to gain access into this entry portion of EVE. Yes, new players mine in null sometimes and the tease of scanned anoms over belts was silly. Do not bring this back unless you have a 99% reduction scan reduction utility slot on all mining ships.
How was this tedious for new players? New players are in .5 or higher systems and mine in asteroid belts. Super easy to get into. The scanning tutorial even had a scannable ore site so you knew they were there. Should relic/data/wormholes/ded sites just be warpable anoms too...pretty big barrier for newbrows to get over, we wouldn't want them to have to put effort into doing something they give you the tools for and show you how to use in the tutorial now would we.
Make ore anoms scannables again = more miners in wh = more explosions = more fun! |
|
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2262
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 00:31:54 -
[171] - Quote
Henry Plantgenet wrote:NPC nullsec areas should have at least as good ores as 0.1. apparently CCP thinks differently. I thought the ores in NPC were determinant on the sec status already? |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
298
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 00:35:22 -
[172] - Quote
Henry Plantgenet wrote:NPC nullsec areas should have at least as good ores as 0.1. apparently CCP thinks differently.
It has been so since the game began.
You need truesec of -0.5-0.7 for belt ABC ores. Certain NPC null systems will have everything upto Crokite.
Grab an Entosis link with your Riftor and be adventurous!
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1587
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 01:08:01 -
[173] - Quote
Gyr Altai wrote:Querns wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: With this change going ahead it may be an idea to add some of the most rare rocks in small amounts into hard to scan anomalies in hisec and losec for explorers to go find. Then some of the isk transfer is mitigated, production issues in nullsec are mitigated and new sites are added for explorers to find and exploit putting more pilots in space whilst rewarding actual effort more.
These already exist; they are called wormholes. Except they aren't hard to scan down because they are insta warp anoms, and no one but the most risk adverse bears who close off all attachments mine in. In a world of at least 2 cloaky proteus in every hole at all times...mining is dumb unless you want to constantly be slaughtered. If you aren't willing to shoulder the risks of 0.0, wormholes, or lowsec, then you get no highends.
Note that this is exact situation that occurs now.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1587
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 01:13:13 -
[174] - Quote
Henry Plantgenet wrote:NPC nullsec areas should have at least as good ores as 0.1. apparently CCP thinks differently. I would suggest simply moving inside the region you are in, honestly.
According to dotlan, some crokite spawns in Syndicate, primarily in the systems around S-U (honored be thy name; S-U is where we will finally go to die.)
Ore spawns are roughly dependent on truesec. Outer Ring, in particular, has some amazing truesec pockets, and spawns both bistot AND arkonor in the best system.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Traedar
InterStellar Trading Syndicate
27
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 01:27:38 -
[175] - Quote
Has anyone run the numbers of how much of each mineral are in the Mining Anoms before vs after change, with perfect refine? Care to share the numbers?
|
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
299
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 02:02:49 -
[176] - Quote
Traedar wrote:Has anyone run the numbers of how much of each mineral are in the Mining Anoms before vs after change, with perfect refine?
Yes.
Quote:Care to share the numbers?
No.
For a fee, yes. ( -í~ -£-û -í-¦)
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Eodp Ellecon
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
17
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 02:07:47 -
[177] - Quote
Gyr Altai wrote:Eodp Ellecon wrote:
The old scan-for-anoms was tedious for new players, and diffused a skill path of interest, taking even longer to gain access into this entry portion of EVE. Yes, new players mine in null sometimes and the tease of scanned anoms over belts was silly. Do not bring this back unless you have a 99% reduction scan reduction utility slot on all mining ships.
How was this tedious for new players? New players are in .5 or higher systems and mine in asteroid belts. Super easy to get into. The scanning tutorial even had a scannable ore site so you knew they were there. Should relic/data/wormholes/ded sites just be warpable anoms too...pretty big barrier for newbrows to get over, we wouldn't want them to have to put effort into doing something they give you the tools for and show you how to use in the tutorial now would we. Make ore anoms scannables again = more miners in wh = more explosions = more fun!
Since you poked and I was speaking from personal experience. As a newb i was mining belts in .2 - .4 space in my first month using a Navitas and Catalyst chasing necessary minerals for builds + mining at the time gave better isk than I could generate ratting. In my second month I was mining in deep null still having to use a Vexor (which had such bonuses at the time) and was still far from being able to use a Barge, or have the skills to scan hidden rock anoms or rat independently.
So No, newbs are not limited to HS .5 mining, and since then the Venture has been introduced for just these reasons.
With attributes and mapping the diffusion of skills at opposite spectrums make meaningful advancements difficult for new players. At present, mining, ratting and scanning are 3 different career paths that don't overlap well based on attributes.
The old scan rock anoms merely gave miners time to see if a neut in system knew anything about scanning and added little to the miner's game-play once said anom was located - hence a tedious ship changing time consumption exercise 3x a day. Like I said, if it comes back, put a scan bonus and utility slot on All mining ships and they can duel with T3-Dessys scanning them down.
|
umah
Black Core Federation Black Core Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 02:17:56 -
[178] - Quote
To be honest, I don't see this changing anything at all.
Since the system is closed, everything from ore to product will just readjust in price to make it the same slog as its always been.
The industry problems in null sec have nothing to do with mining.
Its based on a political/military equation, not economics. The sov holders don't and never have used the space they hold for anything except good fights over moon goo (which instantly goes to Hi Sec)
I don't see that changing, frankly, industry sucks in 0.0 because you lose everything to the first frigate that drops on you. The risk /reward equation just doesn't work for industry in 0.0.
Then there is the problem of RMT
The only time 0.0 industry ever worked was in Drone regions when NPCs dropped refinable loot. When that was nerfed over RMT concerns, industry dried up, and Drone regions became worthless wasteland. With that nerf, CCP made it clear that industry in 0.0 was not something they wanted, because it made drone regions too lucrative.
If 0.0 becomes good industry ground again, then RMT comes back, so they are in a box.
|
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
299
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 02:21:27 -
[179] - Quote
Eodp Ellecon wrote: ike I said, if it comes back, put a scan bonus and utility slot on All mining ships and they can duel with T3-Dessys scanning them down.
Heheheh... Heheheh. T3Ds he said. Heh-heheh.
Heh-heh.
I like this thread - brings people closer together, reveals the inner carebear. A rare event indeed!
Agreed on Venture mining.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1587
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 02:36:02 -
[180] - Quote
umah wrote:To be honest, I don't see this changing anything at all.
Since the system is closed, everything from ore to product will just readjust in price to make it the same slog as its always been.
The industry problems in null sec have nothing to do with mining.
Its based on a political/military equation, not economics. The sov holders don't and never have used the space they hold for anything except good fights over moon goo (which instantly goes to Hi Sec)
I don't see that changing, frankly, industry sucks in 0.0 because you lose everything to the first frigate that drops on you. The risk /reward equation just doesn't work for industry in 0.0.
Then there is the problem of RMT
The only time 0.0 industry ever worked was in Drone regions when NPCs dropped refinable loot. When that was nerfed over RMT concerns, industry dried up, and Drone regions became worthless wasteland. With that nerf, CCP made it clear that industry in 0.0 was not something they wanted, because it made drone regions too lucrative.
If 0.0 becomes good industry ground again, then RMT comes back, so they are in a box.
A shocking amount of tin foil was used in the preparation of this post. I guess it boosts the Icelandic economy of refining bauxite, so there's at least a little gain there.
If you suspect someone of engaging in RMT, by all means, send a report in. Tinfoiling on eve-o does not get the problem solved.
If only your alliance had managed to not get purged from Deklein back in 2010 -- maybe you guys could have approached something resembling a reasonable vignette due to the benediction of our glorious thought leaders. Alas.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
|
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
305
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 03:13:05 -
[181] - Quote
Querns wrote: A shocking amount of tin foil was used in the preparation of this post. I guess it boosts the Icelandic economy of refining bauxite, so there's at least a little gain there.
Must be leftover supplies from Summer of 2009.
Quote:If only your alliance had managed to not get purged from Deklein back in 2010 -- maybe you guys could have approached something resembling a reasonable vignette due to the benediction of our glorious thought leaders. Alas.
Hooold on, hoooold on - Tell me more. ( -í-¦ -£-û -í-¦)
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
525
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 03:40:55 -
[182] - Quote
umah wrote:To be honest, I don't see this changing anything at all.
Since the system is closed, everything from ore to product will just readjust in price to make it the same slog as its always been.
The industry problems in null sec have nothing to do with mining.
Its based on a political/military equation, not economics. The sov holders don't and never have used the space they hold for anything except good fights over moon goo (which instantly goes to Hi Sec)
I don't see that changing, frankly, industry sucks in 0.0 because you lose everything to the first frigate that drops on you. The risk /reward equation just doesn't work for industry in 0.0.
Then there is the problem of RMT
The only time 0.0 industry ever worked was in Drone regions when NPCs dropped refinable loot. When that was nerfed over RMT concerns, industry dried up, and Drone regions became worthless wasteland. With that nerf, CCP made it clear that industry in 0.0 was not something they wanted, because it made drone regions too lucrative.
If 0.0 becomes good industry ground again, then RMT comes back, so they are in a box.
hahahahahhahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahaha
no. |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
100
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 03:43:42 -
[183] - Quote
Yoloswag Zydrine mafia in the House.
Good changes, gib more Mexallon pls.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2264
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 04:12:17 -
[184] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Arkonor:
- Tritanium: 22000 +15095
- Mexallon: 2500 +1222
- Megacyte: 320 +90
-Zydrine removed-
Bistot:
- Pyerite: 12000 -4572
- Zydrine: 450 +214
- Megacyte: 100 -18
Crokite:
- Tritanium: 21000 +8
- Nocxium: 760 +485
- Zydrine: 135 -232
Dark Ochre:
- Tritanium: 10000 +1196
- Isogen: 1600 Isogen added
- Nocxium: 120 -53
Zydrine removed
Gneiss:
- Pyerite: 2200 Pyerite added
- Mexallon: 2400 +1122
- Isogen: 300 +58
Zydrine removed Tritanium removed
Spodumain:
- Tritanium: 56000 +16779
- Pyerite: 12050 +7078
- Mexallon: 2100 Mexallon added
- Isogen: 450 Isogen added
Megacyte removed
Mercoxit:
- Morphite: 300 +7
Hedbergite:
- Pyerite: 1000 +919
- Isogen: 200 +4
- Nocxium: 100 +2
- Zydrine: 19 +10
Hemorphite:
- Tritanium: 2200 +2020
- Isogen: 100 +41
- Nocxium: 120 +2
- Zydrine: 15 +7
Pyerite removed Mexallon removed
Jaspet:
- Mexallon: 350 +206
- Nocxium: 75 +3
- Zydrine: 8 +5
Tritanium removed Pyerite removed
For the lazy |
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
224
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 04:32:10 -
[185] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote: This change will deplete nullsec need for highsec ore our incomes will drop.
Not completely, we'd still have to import certain minerals. Quote:NOTHING else in the game needs to change except the proposed changes for our incomes to drop. Yes, indeed your income could drop somewhat. Quote:I am NOT asking for my ISK / hr to go up, find any place I asked for that. Im asking for it not to go down.
Your saving grace is the coming capital ship rebalance - If demand stays at current levels, you shouldn't see a large decrease to your income; if not... Oh, well. Besides, people used to mine when Trit/Pyerite/Mex were 3.8 / 7 / 32 ISK p/u respectively.
And when people were mining ore at those prices PLEX cost 500mil not 800mil, so what point are you making?
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
|
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
224
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 04:36:01 -
[186] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote: What I'm saying is that highsec mining is already a modest to low income activity and cannot afford to lose more ISK / hr to nullsec.
Btw, even if my mining ship were absolutely invulnerable to any and all attack and interference i would still be making modest to low ISK / hr. Risk vs reward, Yes! Using this mantra to strip highsec miners of anything resembling fair ISK / hr, NO!
That is the issue of Incursions and LVL4s having skewed rewards - but that is a whole can of worms. No changes to highsec mining will take place without either 1) Completely killing Tech 1 production; 2) Completely reviewing T1 input costs. TL;DR Would have to lower all required T1 inputs, lower ore yields/mineral compositions of said ores across the whole of New Eden -> then you could see your ISK/hr go up in Hisec. But why would we do that. This is a discussion about mining and the proposed changes to it, please stay on topic. This change will deplete nullsec need for highsec ore our incomes will drop. NOTHING else in the game needs to change except the proposed changes for our incomes to drop. I am NOT asking for my ISK / hr to go up, find any place I asked for that. Im asking for it not to go down. So, we should just leave null with a heavy dependence on empire ores? Rather than encouraging more null pilots to put more isk down on assets in null?
Should we leave highsec industrials at the mercy of nullsec, while removing their dependence on us?
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
|
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
525
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 04:39:38 -
[187] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Should we leave highsec industrials at the mercy of nullsec, while removing their dependence on us?
Yes, because giving nullsec the ability to produce anything without having to import ore completely removes our dependence on highsec. Meanwhile, the ability for us to mine ore will completely crush highsec, making it a barren wasteland with nothing to do there.
|
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2266
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 04:59:58 -
[188] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Rowells wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote: What I'm saying is that highsec mining is already a modest to low income activity and cannot afford to lose more ISK / hr to nullsec.
Btw, even if my mining ship were absolutely invulnerable to any and all attack and interference i would still be making modest to low ISK / hr. Risk vs reward, Yes! Using this mantra to strip highsec miners of anything resembling fair ISK / hr, NO!
That is the issue of Incursions and LVL4s having skewed rewards - but that is a whole can of worms. No changes to highsec mining will take place without either 1) Completely killing Tech 1 production; 2) Completely reviewing T1 input costs. TL;DR Would have to lower all required T1 inputs, lower ore yields/mineral compositions of said ores across the whole of New Eden -> then you could see your ISK/hr go up in Hisec. But why would we do that. This is a discussion about mining and the proposed changes to it, please stay on topic. This change will deplete nullsec need for highsec ore our incomes will drop. NOTHING else in the game needs to change except the proposed changes for our incomes to drop. I am NOT asking for my ISK / hr to go up, find any place I asked for that. Im asking for it not to go down. So, we should just leave null with a heavy dependence on empire ores? Rather than encouraging more null pilots to put more isk down on assets in null? Should we leave highsec industrials at the mercy of nullsec, while removing their dependence on us? I would lean more toward yes, seeing as it stands currently, nullsec is HEAVILY dependent on highsec, whereas highsec supplies pretty much every other sec status. with the added bonus of only needing about 5% (depending on product) of its ores from non-highsec |
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
224
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 05:01:03 -
[189] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Should we leave highsec industrials at the mercy of nullsec, while removing their dependence on us? Yes, because giving nullsec the ability to produce anything without having to import ore completely removes our dependence on highsec. Meanwhile, the ability for us to mine ore will completely crush highsec, making it a barren wasteland with nothing to do there. My wording if you look back at the post echoed the wording of that posters language. You chose not to include that person's post in your quote so that my words could be read as you prefered them.
But if its the word games you want to play I'm up for it. Yes, we all know it is impossible to produce anything in nullsec that's why I personally only make titans because it is so lucrative, then I move them to nullsec in my JF.
As to your wasteland comment it bellows so much exaggeration it isn't worth any more comment from me than pointing out how stupid it made your entire post read.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
|
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
525
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 05:07:05 -
[190] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Mr Omniblivion wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Should we leave highsec industrials at the mercy of nullsec, while removing their dependence on us? Yes, because giving nullsec the ability to produce anything without having to import ore completely removes our dependence on highsec. Meanwhile, the ability for us to mine ore will completely crush highsec, making it a barren wasteland with nothing to do there. My wording if you look back at the post echoed the wording of that posters language. You chose not to include that person's post in your quote so that my words could be read as you prefered them. But if its the word games you want to play I'm up for it. Yes, we all know it is impossible to produce anything in nullsec that's why I personally only make titans because it is so lucrative, then I move them to nullsec in my JF. As to your wasteland comment it bellows so much exaggeration it isn't worth any more comment from me than pointing out how stupid it made your entire post read.
Apparently the rolleyes wasn't enough of a sign there for you.
My post was a sarcastic comment on all of the idiots that try to argue that allowing null to source ore locally would make either side independent of the other. |
|
Tarus Echerie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 05:13:46 -
[191] - Quote
While I see this might help sov null; what about those of us in NPC null? We still will be net importers of modules and ABCM derived minerals as the tru-sec is not low enough to allow such ores to be around. Also, since there are no upgrades to IHUBs in NPC null we are left with standard belts and occasional (once every blue moon) anom that appears within a few jumps of where we live.
If taking a Rorqual and POS deployment wasn't just a pain in the rear-end; having mining ops around the region wouldn't be so bad. The risk is high and only modest gain for small group just needing basic minerals to build Frigs, Cruisers, and the occasional Battleship.
As others have pointed out Anoms can be warped to by any interceptor in a matter of seconds and hiring a fleet to sit 90% of the time while miners get the necessary ores generated is very teadious and borning content for the group as a whole. Since the majority of NPC Null is -0.0 to -0.4 on average all we get in NPC Null is ore anoms for ABCMs. I agree that the site should be scannable sig to give the both attacking groups and defending/ming something to have to do on both sides. Traps can be planned and miners have the be more alert to their surroundings.
It would be nice to shake up the standard belts from time to time for those of us in NPC Null. Why not introduce a small chance at DT that a ABCM astroid will spawn somewhere in a belt; maybe 1 a week for say 150 units of Arkanor or 300 units of Crokite for areas thats aren' low enough trusec. Think of it like hauler/transport spawns and Commanders spawns in belts. You have to actively search for them and if you miss them; too bad. It also allows those of us in NPC null a bit of an opportunity to not have to import as much for manufacturing. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
313
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 05:32:29 -
[192] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote: This change will deplete nullsec need for highsec ore our incomes will drop.
Not completely, we'd still have to import certain minerals. Quote:NOTHING else in the game needs to change except the proposed changes for our incomes to drop. Yes, indeed your income could drop somewhat. Quote:I am NOT asking for my ISK / hr to go up, find any place I asked for that. Im asking for it not to go down.
Your saving grace is the coming capital ship rebalance - If demand stays at current levels, you shouldn't see a large decrease to your income; if not... Oh, well. Besides, people used to mine when Trit/Pyerite/Mex were 3.8 / 7 / 32 ISK p/u respectively. And when people were mining ore at those prices PLEX cost 500mil not 800mil, so what point are you making?
Oh, I'm sorry? You mine for PLEX?
Anyways, there were no plexes back then. And since you're not against slave labour by your apparent actions, I welcome the Holy Tritanium being valued 3.8 ISK once more!
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2047
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 05:36:56 -
[193] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:Yes, because giving nullsec the ability to produce anything without having to import ore completely removes our dependence on highsec. Meanwhile, the ability for us to mine ore will completely crush highsec, making it a barren wasteland with nothing to do there. Except you ALREADY had the ability to produce on local ore. You just had to get out and strip those static belts daily. Rather than just farming the anoms all day. The point that will crush highsec is that the anoms are getting changed, letting you just farm them, highsec was already getting crushed by your increased refine rates which was slowly but surely deleting the high sec mineral stocks since all the ore was now getting sold to Null. This just furthers the process.
It's not a needed change, it's spoon feeding null in response to a PLAYER MADE situation. Null made the prices of ABC crash, but rather than fix it themselves they have just cried to CCP to rebuff it again and again. |
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
224
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 05:38:02 -
[194] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Should we leave highsec industrials at the mercy of nullsec, while removing their dependence on us?
Rowells wrote: I would lean more toward yes, seeing as it stands currently, nullsec is HEAVILY dependent on highsec, whereas highsec supplies pretty much every other sec status.
When we want to produce anything other than T1 we are not heavily but ABSOLUTELY dependent on the rest of New Eden for the pricy supplies like T3 components, expensive nullsec-exclusive ore, etc. If we are so dependent on the rest of New Eden for those products, game balance should make the reverse true as well.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
|
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
315
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 05:44:38 -
[195] - Quote
If you can find a null system that can yield me a GLORIOUS Stabber Fleet Issue, I'll exchange all of my Highends with a splash of dyspro into your account(s).
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
225
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 05:51:12 -
[196] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote: And when people were mining ore at those prices PLEX cost 500mil not 800mil, so what point are you making?
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Oh, I'm sorry? You mine for PLEX? Anyways, there were no plexes back then. And since you're not against slave labour by your apparent actions, I welcome the Most Glorious return of the Most Holy & Revered Tritanium, valued at 3.8 ISK and Below once again!
You could have just simply admitted you lost the argument or just slunk off to null and licked your wounds.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
|
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
317
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 05:52:53 -
[197] - Quote
:shockgosh:
Imagine that, there was a time when there weren't any plexes in the game. Now it's a rat race for most people if they wish to play it that way, and I wish you well in mining the required amounts of Pyerite/Mexallon to pay for it!
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2267
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 05:59:52 -
[198] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Should we leave highsec industrials at the mercy of nullsec, while removing their dependence on us? Rowells wrote: I would lean more toward yes, seeing as it stands currently, nullsec is HEAVILY dependent on highsec, whereas highsec supplies pretty much every other sec status.
When we want to produce anything other than T1 we are not heavily but ABSOLUTELY dependent on the rest of New Eden for the pricy supplies like T3 components, expensive nullsec-exclusive ore, etc. If we are so dependent on the rest of New Eden for those products, game balance should make the reverse true as well. So dependent? Maybe you wouldn't think so if you consider how many ores are bought from highsec, how many finished ships (including T2/T3), modules, faction mods (only the odd pirate drop and escalation in sov), implants (mostly not in sov null), and I'm sure I missed something else that sov null is entirely dependent on highsec for. So considering the only thing highsec can't get itself is pirate faction goods, sleeper loot, and moon goo, a decent portion of which will go back to null as finished products, I think a slight shifting of low-ends minerals in the high-end ores is way underwhelming.
Also, considering highsec will always have a vastly larger labor force, you shouldn't expect to see any massive drops in income. Highly doubt highsec miners are suddenly going to switch their operations to null (especially seeing as renting is about to become less of a thing).
also, the mass amounts of mission loot refine into highends, in case you didnt know. So its not entirely as strictly cut as you may think. |
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
525
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 06:48:50 -
[199] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Mr Omniblivion wrote:Yes, because giving nullsec the ability to produce anything without having to import ore completely removes our dependence on highsec. Meanwhile, the ability for us to mine ore will completely crush highsec, making it a barren wasteland with nothing to do there. Except you ALREADY had the ability to produce on local ore. You just had to get out and strip those static belts daily. Rather than just farming the anoms all day. The point that will crush highsec is that the anoms are getting changed, letting you just farm them, highsec was already getting crushed by your increased refine rates which was slowly but surely deleting the high sec mineral stocks since all the ore was now getting sold to Null. This just furthers the process.
laffo
Your grasp on this game and reality is mild at best
Nevyn Auscent wrote: It's not a needed change, it's spoon feeding null in response to a PLAYER MADE situation.
hahahahahahahahahahaha this is such a dumb comment
here, let me explain it to you: |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
168
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 06:49:45 -
[200] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Should we leave highsec industrials at the mercy of nullsec, while removing their dependence on us? Rowells wrote: I would lean more toward yes, seeing as it stands currently, nullsec is HEAVILY dependent on highsec, whereas highsec supplies pretty much every other sec status.
When we want to produce anything other than T1 we are not heavily but ABSOLUTELY dependent on the rest of New Eden for the pricy supplies like T3 components, expensive nullsec-exclusive ore, etc. If we are so dependent on the rest of New Eden for those products, game balance should make the reverse true as well. So dependent? Maybe you wouldn't think so if you consider how many ores are bought from highsec, how many finished ships (including T2/T3), modules, faction mods (only the odd pirate drop and escalation in sov), implants (mostly not in sov null), and I'm sure I missed something else that sov null is entirely dependent on highsec for. So considering the only thing highsec can't get itself is pirate faction goods, sleeper loot, and moon goo, a decent portion of which will go back to null as finished products, I think a slight shifting of low-ends minerals in the high-end ores is way underwhelming. Also, considering highsec will always have a vastly larger labor force, you shouldn't expect to see any massive drops in income. Highly doubt highsec miners are suddenly going to switch their operations to null (especially seeing as renting is about to become less of a thing). also, the mass amounts of mission loot refine into highends, in case you didnt know. So its not entirely as strictly cut as you may think.
Typical goonshit.
implants are small and easily transported, their consumption is not anywhere near minerals, same for faction modules. Building ships in hisec is doomed anyway, I'm not sure why even bring that up. If you alliance is dependent on hisec for ships, there is no surprise you got your butts kicked in Fountain. Mission loot refinable in highends is a LIE. The amount of highends obtained by refining is negligible. I probably should drop your face into eve-refinery's table for my proof, but as you're just a goon troll, you don't need proof, you're just here for paplinks on orders to capitalize your gains from this unneeded change, and the last thing you need is discussion. Hisec income is ALREADY rekt btw. But you will ignore this anyway, when 25% of hisec mining income has gone down the drain even before changes are live, and more to come. Hisec miners won't switch to null, unless it's a blue donut, but blue donut is a domain of bot fleets and actual miners are not needed there. Hisec miners just have to unsub again like in Odyssey and wait for another 5 consecutive buffs which it took to recover mining to 75% of former income from drop to 25% on Odyssey launch.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
|
|
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
321
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 06:53:05 -
[201] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote: Hisec income is ALREADY rekt btw. But you will ignore this anyway, when 25% of hisec mining income has gone down the drain even before changes are live, and more to come.
Smart people making gud moves and exiting large positions as soon as possible, the other side is refraining from purchasing further ores. Smart.
PLAYER ECONOMY BRO
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1405
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 06:59:08 -
[202] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote: Typical goonshit.
implants are small and easily transported, their consumption is not anywhere near minerals, same for faction modules. Building ships in hisec is doomed anyway, I'm not sure why even bring that up. If you alliance is dependent on hisec for ships, there is no surprise you got your butts kicked in Fountain. Mission loot refinable in highends is a LIE. The amount of highends obtained by refining is negligible. I probably should drop your face into eve-refinery's table for my proof, but as you're just a goon troll, you don't need proof, you're just here for paplinks on orders to capitalize your gains from this unneeded change, and the last thing you need is discussion. Hisec income is ALREADY rekt btw. But you will ignore this anyway, when 25% of hisec mining income has gone down the drain even before changes are live, and more to come. Hisec miners won't switch to null, unless it's a blue donut, but blue donut is a domain of bot fleets and actual miners are not needed there. Hisec miners just have to unsub again like in Odyssey and wait for another 5 consecutive buffs which it took to recover mining to 75% of former income from drop to 25% on Odyssey launch.
Bro, I'm about as anti-goon as it's possible to get while being civil, and let me tell you something.
You are batshit crazy.
First off, Goons pushed our **** in at Fountain, and now Delve. I'm certainly not glad about it, but it happened. Second. There is no more blue donut. There's barely two alliances still with good relations left in the northeast, east, southeast, south, or southwest, and soon to be west. It's just the CFC squatting in the north/northwest with lots of blues, and just about everyone else prepping to shank our neighbor when Fozziesov hits.
The ore related stuff is a mixture of issues, but I doubt I could beat the basics into you with a sledge. The TLDR though is that if we paid a living wage to nullsec miners to mine all the trit we need with the current anom makeup, BS's would cost upwards of 500 mil. And that just isn't going to work, and CCP knows it. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2268
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 07:17:09 -
[203] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Typical goonshit.
implants are small and easily transported, their consumption is not anywhere near minerals, same for faction modules. Building ships in hisec is doomed anyway, I'm not sure why even bring that up. If you alliance is dependent on hisec for ships, there is no surprise you got your butts kicked in Fountain. Mission loot refinable in highends is a LIE. The amount of highends obtained by refining is negligible. I probably should drop your face into eve-refinery's table for my proof, but as you're just a goon troll, you don't need proof, you're just here for paplinks on orders to capitalize your gains from this unneeded change, and the last thing you need is discussion. Hisec income is ALREADY rekt btw. But you will ignore this anyway, when 25% of hisec mining income has gone down the drain even before changes are live, and more to come. Hisec miners won't switch to null, unless it's a blue donut, but blue donut is a domain of bot fleets and actual miners are not needed there. Hisec miners just have to unsub again like in Odyssey and wait for another 5 consecutive buffs which it took to recover mining to 75% of former income from drop to 25% on Odyssey launch.
Well, I have just had my full dose of ignorance for the day. And its only 1:14AM. Nice. |
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
525
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 07:19:04 -
[204] - Quote
Prior to this change, mining in null was equal or worse than mining in highsec. Null specific ores were less valuable than trit (except crok, because nocx).
It's not like anyone can just go and mine freely in null ore anomalies. A group must own sov, install an IHUB, install upgrades in the system and maintain the industrial level. There is no security in null, and roaming gangs of interceptors can catch and kill any miner that they find. Mining isn't free in null- being part of an alliance means that you pay taxes. Whether or not it's a per person tax or a refining tax, you have to pay to help maintain the space. Furthermore, once you get the ore in null and refine it, you then have to ship out excess mid/high ends and import the remaining low ends that you need (which incurs transport costs both ways). The number of people mining in nullsec space directly relates to how much hostile activity will be in that system, since industrial indices are readily available to everyone. This means that the more that anyone mines in null, the more the risk increases.
In highsec, you just undock and warp to a belt. If you're in a skiff, your chances of being suicide ganked are near zero. You could then refine and move your minerals freely within highsec. It doesn't matter how much ore is mined in highsec- no one can see an indices to see how much ore is mined. Furthermore, miners can resort to mining missions if their belts are done for the day.
CCP is finally making a change to fix the mining situation in null- it desperately needed a fix. Mining in nullsec was literally the worst activity you could do in terms of isk/hr in null unless you were running a fleet of 10+ miners. Players that wanted to mine to build their own ships were still forced to import low end minerals because there simply isn't enough available (WITHIN REASON- belt mining was the dumbest thing to do in null).
Now, we will have a system that rewards cherry picking nullsec static belts, while allowing for groups of players to mine anomalies in order to get proper portions of minerals that they need to build the basic t1 items that are needed everywhere.
All of the highsec hurfers are coming out of the woodworks to say how this is an unfair buff to null etc etc. They clearly have not looked at any data nor do they have a grasp on how income works across the game.
It's not a surprise that I also have to spell this out for the highsec people. As ore belts and anomalies increase in value, null miners are going to switch from ice to ores. As they do, isotope prices will increase across the board. Highsec miners will then have an opportunity to start mining (or continue to mine) ice at an increased profit per hour.
|
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
168
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 07:23:10 -
[205] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:PLAYER ECONOMY BRO A group of players getting rekt by an unneeded change catered to blue donut bot fleets. TOTALLY PLAYER ECONOMY BRO.
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:I find the notion viewing Highsec as an endgame in itself laughable - Glorious Truesec is where most pilots should be aiming at - Develop and sustain, cherish and protect, enjoy and overcome all odds by living in player-driven Empires, Freeport Federations and the like. As long as mining vessels are made unprotectable, hisec will be endgame for a miner. Even if you have a whole BNI on your belt, your barge would still die to a gank, that is the reason being lower than 0.7 is too risky for any decent mining.
And I will never hesitate to tell people like you to which safespot on their bodies they have to stick their armor fit drake of an opinion about how others should play the game.
[quote=Iroquoiss Pliskin]The highest number of player activity has always coincided with the largest conflicts and wars in the history of New Eden./quote] Mining prefers places with the lowest number of player activity, for obvious reasons - one 10 days old "special" individual in a destroyer can bring halt to all mining in a whole constellation for as long as he wants. So why should miner care about your high number? He should stay away from it as far as possible.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
|
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
525
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 07:26:45 -
[206] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:one 10 days old "special" individual in a destroyer can bring halt to all mining in a whole constellation for as long as he wants.
Step 1) Fly a skiff Step 2) Orbit your can |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
102
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 07:36:07 -
[207] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote: A group of players getting rekt by an unneeded change catered to blue donut bot fleets. TOTALLY PLAYER ECONOMY BRO.
Nope.
Who introduced ore anomalies in the first place? Who then buffed the volume (was it volume?) of the Large/Medium/XL fields? A situation had been created which was no longer in the hands of the players, as market forces began flooding Empire with supply, since even at 750 p/u it was still better than mining Scordite in Empire, and even at 400 p/u for Zyd it was still 28-29 mil p/h per person in a proper fleet AFAIK.
It used to be fine, when we didn't have capitalships, and everyone in null mined in belts, because there wasn't anything else - such an arrangement supported healthy a healthy economy with stable prices for most T1 products, including Battleships.
I see Tech 1 cruisers and battleships returning to under 10m and 180m respectively.
Overall, lower mineral prices equals cheaper products, while *probably* retaining the same margins for industrialists, which in turn means more inventory gets moved, as people readily purchase spaceships for PvP in both Empire and Null.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
586
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 07:48:48 -
[208] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: Increasing Zydrine and Megacyte consumption in manufacturing. This is a fairly simple change, but it will have some significant effects. As we said on the o7 show, we are doubling the Zydrine and Megacyte consumption of almost all blueprints in the game.
What about the reprocessing values on meta modules? Are you going to adjust those upwards, as well?
If not, then T1 modules become even more expensive, relative to low metas - and thus, even less incentive to build/use T1 except as components in T2 module manufacturing.
Note that low meta prices tend to be bounded by their reprocessing value, in the majority of cases where the NPC drops and market supply are high (and not being deliberately market manipulated). For most modules, the reprocessing value is already significantly lower than the T1 build cost, making those modules impractical to build, esp. since even the low metas tend to have better stats than T1.
Module tiericide has completely failed to address this problem, thus far. |
Spugg Galdon
Nisroc Angels
659
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 07:59:21 -
[209] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote: Increasing Zydrine and Megacyte consumption in manufacturing. This is a fairly simple change, but it will have some significant effects. As we said on the o7 show, we are doubling the Zydrine and Megacyte consumption of almost all blueprints in the game.
What about the reprocessing values on meta modules? Are you going to adjust those upwards, as well? If not, then T1 modules become even more expensive, relative to low metas - and thus, even less incentive to build/use T1 except as components in T2 module manufacturing. Note that low meta prices tend to be bounded by their reprocessing value, in the majority of cases where the NPC drops and market supply are high (and not being deliberately market manipulated). For most modules, the reprocessing value is already significantly lower than the T1 build cost, making those modules impractical to build, esp. since even the low metas tend to have better stats than T1. Module tiericide has completely failed to address this problem, thus far.
This is because NPC's shouldn't drop complete components. They should drop "parts" which are then used in conjunction with T1 components and BPC's acquired from data sites to build meta modules. Then it's really easy to balance the cost of meta modules as you just tweak the supply of parts dropped from rats. The daft thing is, we already have all the items in game (more or less) to do this. There are mechanical parts, electrical parts (all those really low value items in relic/data sites) etc etc. The list is very long.
This would fix data sites (as they're currently rubbish) and give a massive expansion to industry. |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
102
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 08:08:00 -
[210] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:Prior to this change, mining in null was equal or worse than mining in highsec. Null specific ores were less valuable than trit (except crok, because nocx).
It's not like anyone can just go and mine freely in null ore anomalies. A group must own sov, install an IHUB, install upgrades in the system and maintain the industrial level. There is no security in null, and roaming gangs of interceptors can catch and kill any miner that they find. Mining isn't free in null- being part of an alliance means that you pay taxes. Whether or not it's a per person tax or a refining tax, you have to pay to help maintain the space. Furthermore, once you get the ore in null and refine it, you then have to ship out excess mid/high ends and import the remaining low ends that you need (which incurs transport costs both ways). The number of people mining in nullsec space directly relates to how much hostile activity will be in that system, since industrial indices are readily available to everyone. This means that the more that anyone mines in null, the more the risk increases.
In highsec, you just undock and warp to a belt. If you're in a skiff, your chances of being suicide ganked are near zero. You could then refine and move your minerals freely within highsec. It doesn't matter how much ore is mined in highsec- no one can see an indices to see how much ore is mined. Furthermore, miners can resort to mining missions if their belts are done for the day.
CCP is finally making a change to fix the mining situation in null- it desperately needed a fix. Mining in nullsec was literally the worst activity you could do in terms of isk/hr in null unless you were running a fleet of 10+ miners. Players that wanted to mine to build their own ships were still forced to import low end minerals because there simply isn't enough available (WITHIN REASON- belt mining was the dumbest thing to do in null).
Now, we will have a system that rewards cherry picking nullsec static belts, while allowing for groups of players to mine anomalies in order to get proper portions of minerals that they need to build the basic t1 items that are needed everywhere.
All of the highsec hurfers are coming out of the woodworks to say how this is an unfair buff to null etc etc. They clearly have not looked at any data nor do they have a grasp on how income works across the game.
It's not a surprise that I also have to spell this out for the highsec people. As ore belts and anomalies increase in value, null miners are going to switch from ice to ores. As they do, isotope prices will increase across the board. Highsec miners will then have an opportunity to start mining (or continue to mine) ice at an increased profit per hour.
Very aptly put.
One has to agree that some of them may be inexperienced due to age, but it shouldn't give way to making slanderous accusations.
This thread makes me want to go mine something. In Lowsecks.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
|
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
168
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 08:13:26 -
[211] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:one 10 days old "special" individual in a destroyer can bring halt to all mining in a whole constellation for as long as he wants. Step 1) Fly a skiff Step 2) Orbit your can
1) Unviable ship. No yield, no extra meaningful tank compared to T1 variant. Takes a goon to be bad at mining... 2) You can only have cans in blue donut, otherwise you're just inviting "special" individuals.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
|
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
526
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 08:22:42 -
[212] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:1) Unviable ship. No yield, no extra meaningful tank compared to T1 variant.
|
Sheldon d'Albion
2
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 08:26:23 -
[213] - Quote
Hi, In your chart Mineral Output per Unit of Ore , there must be an error with the zydrine amount in the vitric hedbergite .
|
Beta Maoye
59
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 08:34:55 -
[214] - Quote
Null sec mining will not be prosperous if you let the miner be a sitting duck in the belt waiting for my Ares or Catalyst to get him. Persons with logical mind will not mine there. |
Hakan MacTrew
MUTED VOID Takahashi Alliance
894
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 08:55:30 -
[215] - Quote
Beta Maoye wrote:Null sec mining will not be prosperous if you let the miner be a sitting duck in the belt waiting for my Ares or Catalyst to get him. Persons with logical mind will not mine there.
Depends on how many belts there are, where you sit in the belt and how on the ball the Miner is. And I say that as someone who actually mines in Null.
Friends
|
erg cz
Tribal Core
211
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 09:22:33 -
[216] - Quote
Posting in hidden "high sec gun mining buff" thread... Time to queue Scrapmetal Processing, IMHO.
But seriosly speaking they are not buffing null sec mining. They are killing high sec production (due to doubled zydrine / megacyte requirements and nerf of hemorphite content). And that means null sec will not be able to import that much from high sec and there fore prices there will go up as well.
Solution was not playing with blueprints / ore content. Solution was to make all belts moving / scanable. And ban any miner from rokie system if that miner is over 30 days old. |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
168
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 10:22:59 -
[217] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:1) Unviable ship. No yield, no extra meaningful tank compared to T1 variant.
Suicide wankers being butthurt about it makes it a viable choice for trolling them, but not for mining. You can field 4 Covetors at the cost of one Skiff, and they are a lot easier to max SP-wise with a lot better yield. Troll this approach all you want, but if you're not a bot, the only way to mine is full yield full attention, otherwise you're just wasting your precious time and entertain the bot fleets you "compete" with. I have never lost a barge before, but if a destroyer comes, the only difference your Skiff will make is dying longer after his drones are rekt by destroyer, all at the cost of 20% reduced yield, leading to longer field exposure, which is a lose-lose at the cost of T2 ship.
Well, it's not like we have a viable barge to begin with, hence all the "T3 miner pls" moans.
Now we don't even have a viable place to mine, and changes aren't even there yet, but bot shepherds are already happy as a puppy.
Human mining ruining OP success.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
|
Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
28
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 11:45:31 -
[218] - Quote
T3 miner sounds awesome? what will it have more mining power? So making it the best ship to mine and lowering all other ships mining potential coz more minerals coming in while demand stays the same means prices will drop.. |
Hakan MacTrew
MUTED VOID Takahashi Alliance
894
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 12:28:52 -
[219] - Quote
erg cz wrote:Posting in hidden "high sec gun mining buff" thread... Time to queue Scrapmetal Processing, IMHO.
But seriosly speaking they are not buffing null sec mining. They are killing high sec production (due to doubled zydrine / megacyte requirements and nerf of hemorphite content). And that means null sec will not be able to import that much from high sec and there fore prices there will go up as well.
Solution was not playing with blueprints / ore content. Solution was to make all belts moving / scanable. And ban any miner from rokie system if that miner is over 30 days old.
As I remember the Rookie system Asteroids were 'tweaked' so that they are all but pointless to mine unless you are doing a tutorial.
We'll wait and see what happens to prices, because so far I see Tritanium lowering in price while Mexallon and Pyerite are stable. Once the crazy Zydrine and Megacyte prices stabalise after all this speculation we'll see what happens.
Either way, I'm hoarding ABC's till after the patch.
Friends
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
102
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 12:53:38 -
[220] - Quote
Heh-heh, I remember getting multi-million volume Zyd orders getting filled as low as 630 p/u just two days before o7 Show.
People would then rage in GD on April 1st with, "What - who knew, investigate nao!"
Heh-heh.
Science & Trade thread went completely over the heads of 99%, MD and S&T activity being very low overall. Please explode more spaceships to bring more people back.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1588
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 13:08:35 -
[221] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Mr Omniblivion wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:one 10 days old "special" individual in a destroyer can bring halt to all mining in a whole constellation for as long as he wants. Step 1) Fly a skiff Step 2) Orbit your can 1) Unviable ship. No yield, no extra meaningful tank compared to T1 variant. Takes a goon to be bad at mining... 2) You can only have cans in blue donut, otherwise you're just inviting "special" individuals. A skiff can have 90k EHP, before bonuses.
Also, enumerate your enemies and scout. These are the tools nullsec uses; quit being too lazy to use them.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Decaneos
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
132
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 13:25:32 -
[222] - Quote
Querns wrote:Henry Plantgenet wrote:NPC nullsec areas should have at least as good ores as 0.1. apparently CCP thinks differently. I would suggest simply moving inside the region you are in, honestly. According to dotlan, some crokite spawns in Syndicate, primarily in the systems around S-U (honored be thy name; S-U is where we will finally go to die.) Ore spawns are roughly dependent on truesec. Outer Ring, in particular, has some amazing truesec pockets, and spawns both bistot AND arkonor in the best system.
Think about what your saying tho, crokite spawns in very few systems in syndicate and will still only give zydrine with no access still to megacite, despite this they are still doubling the about needed for manufacturing.
To be honest tho as most systems in syndicate have only ores available in 0.4 they would need to balance whats actually in these belts rather than adjust the values of the ores. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1588
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 13:32:33 -
[223] - Quote
Decaneos wrote:Querns wrote:Henry Plantgenet wrote:NPC nullsec areas should have at least as good ores as 0.1. apparently CCP thinks differently. I would suggest simply moving inside the region you are in, honestly. According to dotlan, some crokite spawns in Syndicate, primarily in the systems around S-U (honored be thy name; S-U is where we will finally go to die.) Ore spawns are roughly dependent on truesec. Outer Ring, in particular, has some amazing truesec pockets, and spawns both bistot AND arkonor in the best system. Think about what your saying tho, crokite spawns in very few systems in syndicate and will still only give zydrine with no access still to megacite, despite this they are still doubling the about needed for manufacturing. To be honest tho as most systems in syndicate have only ores available in 0.4 they would need to balance whats actually in these belts rather than adjust the values of the ores. I found your problem -- trying to mine exact ratios of minerals to build things is probably one of the worst economic bargains in Eve. You are deliberately wasting your own time just to make the numbers line up. Instead, mine the most lucrative thing you can, then sell your excess for cash, and use the cash to buy the minerals you lack. Freight is cheap and syndicate is very close to empire shipping lanes.
Remember, money can be traded for goods and services.
Also, realize that syndicate is kind of a craphole. Its truesec simply isn't good enough to spawn the minerals you want. Consider moving, or using the money trick above. Conquerable sov regions like Providence and Pure Blind suffer similar problems due to their average truesec being unfavorably compared to a medical waste dumpster.
Hell, Deklein can't even spawn arkonor in its static belts at all, ever.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
102
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 13:35:10 -
[224] - Quote
Yes. I once came into a bike shop to get a tyre puncture cured, but the gentleman at the counter said that it is more cost-effective to source and replace the tube completely.
True relevant storie. vOv
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Decaneos
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
132
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 13:38:08 -
[225] - Quote
Firvain wrote:T3 miner sounds awesome? what will it have more mining power? So making it the best ship to mine and lowering all other ships mining potential coz more minerals coming in while demand stays the same means prices will drop..
You could make it super miner, or you could make dictor nullified cloaky, or combat barge! but not all at the same time ofc, you would have to make that choice as you do with t3 cruisers fitting. thats how i would see them anyways.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1588
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 13:38:45 -
[226] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Yes. I once came into a bike shop to get a tyre puncture cured, but the gentleman at the counter said that it is more cost-effective to source and replace the tube completely.
True relevant storie. vOv Your metaphor is bad, and has nothing to do with anything being talked about in the thread at all.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Decaneos
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
132
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 13:39:52 -
[227] - Quote
Querns wrote:Decaneos wrote:Querns wrote:Henry Plantgenet wrote:NPC nullsec areas should have at least as good ores as 0.1. apparently CCP thinks differently. I would suggest simply moving inside the region you are in, honestly. According to dotlan, some crokite spawns in Syndicate, primarily in the systems around S-U (honored be thy name; S-U is where we will finally go to die.) Ore spawns are roughly dependent on truesec. Outer Ring, in particular, has some amazing truesec pockets, and spawns both bistot AND arkonor in the best system. Think about what your saying tho, crokite spawns in very few systems in syndicate and will still only give zydrine with no access still to megacite, despite this they are still doubling the about needed for manufacturing. To be honest tho as most systems in syndicate have only ores available in 0.4 they would need to balance whats actually in these belts rather than adjust the values of the ores. I found your problem -- trying to mine exact ratios of minerals to build things is probably one of the worst economic bargains in Eve. You are deliberately wasting your own time just to make the numbers line up. Instead, mine the most lucrative thing you can, then sell your excess for cash, and use the cash to buy the minerals you lack. Freight is cheap and syndicate is very close to empire shipping lanes. Remember, money can be traded for goods and services. Also, realize that syndicate is kind of a craphole. Its truesec simply isn't good enough to spawn the minerals you want. Consider moving, or using the money trick above. Conquerable sov regions like Providence and Pure Blind suffer similar problems due to their average truesec being unfavorably compared to a medical waste dumpster. Hell, Deklein can't even spawn arkonor in its static belts at all, ever.
Maybe when the new changes come in and everythings not got goon goo all over it making it sticky and nasty to touch ;) |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
102
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 13:42:10 -
[228] - Quote
It's a good story, though.
Does anyone have any boot, or two, on the pulse of Lowsec mining? Zydrine content went up in all three ores, but it is not enough to get people out there en masse.
Adding more Nocx is warranted I think.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1588
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 13:42:18 -
[229] - Quote
Decaneos wrote:Maybe when the new changes come in and everythings not got goon goo all over it making it sticky and nasty to touch ;) The funny thing about eve is that most of it has this criteria applied to it. I suggest carrying a blacklight wherever you go.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Darkblad
Hilf Dir selbst in EVE
874
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 14:23:59 -
[230] - Quote
Updated/created several sheets, charts and overviews to the new quantities (which are reported to be on Sisi now):
Old, New quantities, change of quantities Market values of compressed/reprocessed (with adjustable yield) ores Volume, ISK value and "hulk hours" for the iHub sites (empire) "Roid Grid" with mineral quantities in tooltips.
EVE Infolinks GÇó Mining Handbuch GÇó Colortags/Timer
|
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1588
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 14:25:33 -
[231] - Quote
CCP Fozzie -- would you be willing to divulge the specific counts of individual asteroids inside the ore prospecting sites?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Null Infinity
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
18
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 14:34:32 -
[232] - Quote
Make miners chasing asteroids, so hunters will have to chace miners as well. Now they sit still. Comet mining for the win! At least give it a try before you ruin fragile economy of EVE by messing up blueprints...
New mining menthods: interactive mining
and comet mining
|
Phaade
Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF
318
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 14:50:18 -
[233] - Quote
Milla Goodpussy wrote:Aya Nova wrote:All these changes only address one side (and the less important one of) of why null mining isn't happening.
Mining as it is, is a very uninteractive activity. You need a bunch of people sitting in a belt for hours, who can do nothing but drag ore from their bay. At the same time you need someone to clear the rats (who gets to do nothing for ~30min, then be active for 2) and if you plan to defend from PvP enemies, you need a sizable gang on standby (which is supremely boring).
The suggestion brought by others to make ore sites (in null only) require scanning is a great one.
Secondly the exhumers (or at least 1-2 of them or a new class of mining ships) need to be redesigned with the idea of nullsec defensive combat. This doesn't just mean lots of tank, because a helpless ship with lots of tank will just get ground down eventually. They need to actually be able to protect themselves, something like bonuses and slots to allow fitting of undersized weapons (or RLMLs) that would allow a pack of exhumers to not be a pushover for a smaller number of inities or a torp bomber drop. For example adding a max 3 fitted to strip miners, and adding turret/launcher highs, more mids and bonusing small weapons on the hull, but reducing warp speed to make them undesirable offensively.
Another idea would be to gate the ore production through availability not time to harvest, much like exploration sites. Make it an intense, high ISK/hr activity where it makes sense for combat and mining players to work together in a group over a short span with high rewards. how the hell do you expect mining to be exciting.. what you want them to pvp the damn rocks? good grief go find a new home already.
Do....do y....do you read before you post?
If you read before you post, you might avoid the embarrassment of writing such drivel.
To Aya, that's an excellent idea. The best I've ever read regarding mining. I've mined a total of probably 5km3 in my Eve career, but I love the idea of certain mining ships being able to defend themselves from light threats. Rapidly increasing the speed of highly desired ore while being under heavy NPC or player fire would be very, very fun for the industrial / combat players both.
CCP wants mining to be boring though, I think. Either way, a change such as this is not something they will ever consider; Like overhauling PvE in Eve, it's too much work. |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
168
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 15:01:38 -
[234] - Quote
Firvain wrote:T3 miner sounds awesome? what will it have more mining power? So making it the best ship to mine and lowering all other ships mining potential coz more minerals coming in while demand stays the same means prices will drop.. I did not say it sounds awesome, I said that a lot of people moaning about is a symptom of current barges being unviable, and people are looking for a viable one.
Querns wrote:A skiff can have 90k EHP, before bonuses.
Also, enumerate your enemies and scout. These are the tools nullsec uses; quit being too lazy to use them. So destroyer would have to reload once while Skiff dies.
The second part is so completely unrelated to the topic that I'd question the state of mind of person who wrote it, if only he weren't a gewn.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
102
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 15:03:00 -
[235] - Quote
Sweet, sweet Mexallon. Sweet, sweet Pyerite.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Soldarius
Naliao Inc. Test Alliance Please Ignore
1250
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 15:24:51 -
[236] - Quote
After inputting the new values, many of the 5 and 10% variant mineral values will be fractional. Will these be rounded up, down, or nearest whole number? The last set of changes with Crius had the values all rounded up, which I think is also appropriate here, otherwise small values of certain minerals will result in literally no increased content.
This is especially noticable with Jaspet's Zydrine content, since it has only 8 Zydrine per batch. +5% = only .4 units, and +10% is only .8 units, both of which round up to 9 units.
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
|
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2277
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 16:00:02 -
[237] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:So destroyer would have to reload once while Skiff dies. not before concord shows up. Also maybe deploying combat drones would help if you are so inclined.
Basil Pupkin wrote:The second part is so completely unrelated to the topic that I'd question the state of mind of person who wrote it, if only he weren't a gewn. Its absolutely related. Its part of the safety tools at disposal for miners.
But, then again, I'm talking to someone who thinks mining in anything lower than .7 is too dangerous for any decent mining. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1590
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 16:34:22 -
[238] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Querns wrote:A skiff can have 90k EHP, before bonuses.
Also, enumerate your enemies and scout. These are the tools nullsec uses; quit being too lazy to use them. So destroyer would have to reload once while Skiff dies. The second part is so completely unrelated to the topic that I'd question the state of mind of person who wrote it, if only he weren't a gewn. Nah -- you're complaining about suicide ganks, when the tools to evade and dissuade a suicide gank are within a player's grasp, if they weren't too lazy to use them. Nullsec relies on these concepts to carve out small measures of safety in our home systems, and people constantly decry nullsec as "safer than highsec." If these tools enable this "safety," surely highsec can use the very same tools and combine them with literal perfect attention, instapopping NPC police to drape themselves in a safety shawl so coruscating, so perfect, that ship loss would be unheard of.
However, this does require collaborating with the people around you, which may be a little tough for an area of space practically defined by its antisocial behavior.
Regarding your destroyer hyperbole, let's play my favorite game -- crushing your uninformed opinion with math.
Here's a typical suicide gank catalyst: http://i.imgur.com/wz9ddBT.jpg tl;dl: 627 DPS heated at all 5s.
Now, an omnitanked skiff has 91k EHP before shield bonuses. Dividing 91000 by 627 equals 145 seconds for a lone catalyst to destroy a skiff. Given that the worst-case concord response time is 19 seconds, I'm guessing a skiff will survive a suicide gank pretty easily.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Makari Aeron
The Shadow's Of Eve TSOE Consortium
215
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 17:20:19 -
[239] - Quote
Unsure how I feel about the Mercoxit reduction. That seems like it's going to greatly affect all T2 production but time will tell i suppose. I always found it tedious to mine to begin with and you require quite a bit if yo're going to make anything substantial in any moderate quantity. I kinda expected about 25-50% more mercoxit in the null belts since that's really the only place you can get it.
CCP RedDawn: Ugly people are just playing life on HARD mode. Personally, I'm playing on an INFERNO difficulty.
CCP Goliath: I often believe that the best way to get something done is to shout at the person trying to help you. http://goo.gl/PKGDP
|
belliar
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 17:40:37 -
[240] - Quote
hi, apart from all the discussions yay or nay.
I would like to contribute my expierence from nullsec mining, without speculating how it will be with the new changes.
I run about a squad of miners, for about 6 months now in nullsec, ive never been killed. Why? intel channel, and not afk. Regards to should we have biggest reward in nullsec mining? Becus its more dangerous.. thats quite relative and for every ccp feature we have a player solution.
When we mine, its always in anomalies, becus of the quanitity. For this reason hostiles also always warp to the anomalies. Theres never any suprise.. or work.. warp at 0 to collosal, enourmous, large and tackle somebody or move to next system.
If we empty out a mining anomaly like the collosal, it instantly respawns. Making it a full-time proffesion where we can be very lazy and flip the same anomaly several times a day.
We never spend time in the normal ore belts, that surround the planets. Why do we still have those if they are not competitive compared to anomalies? Especially in nullsec.
When i was in a highsec corp we would pick a few systems and mine out the belts there from an entire system and move to the next. In nullsec its lazy mode, easy money. And the talk about more danger with the backing of an alliance is non-existant unless u live in catch or some other warzone.
So thx for all the fish.. thx for making nullsec miners even more richer, but u should approach this differently. Introduce limits and involve planet ore belts more imho. |
|
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1052
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 18:13:48 -
[241] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Mr Omniblivion wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:one 10 days old "special" individual in a destroyer can bring halt to all mining in a whole constellation for as long as he wants. Step 1) Fly a skiff Step 2) Orbit your can 1) Unviable ship. No yield, no extra meaningful tank compared to T1 variant. Takes a goon to be bad at mining... 2) You can only have cans in blue donut, otherwise you're just inviting "special" individuals. "sure, it is trivially easy to be perfectly safe, but in order to be perfectly safe i would have to give up a smidgen of yield which, as a highsec bot-aspirant, i cannot conceive of"
if you want perfect safety being willing to pay for it
also protip: you don't have to put ore in the can
my god, i've mined once, a decade ago, and i know infinitely more on the subject than you do |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1052
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 18:18:39 -
[242] - Quote
Makari Aeron wrote:Unsure how I feel about the Mercoxit reduction. That seems like it's going to greatly affect all T2 production but time will tell i suppose. I always found it tedious to mine to begin with and you require quite a bit if yo're going to make anything substantial in any moderate quantity. I kinda expected about 25-50% more mercoxit in the null belts since that's really the only place you can get it. like a billion times more is produced than used currently |
Laughable Xhosa Girl
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
34
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 18:57:55 -
[243] - Quote
NO let me tell u why u, mr. succesful nullsec player ARE WRONG and why I, pubbie mcscummington AM RIGHT |
Valterra Craven
534
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 19:09:48 -
[244] - Quote
Querns & Mr Omniblivion
I'm still surprised to see you guys so enthused by these changes. I still think CCP needs to be taken to task for continually introducing content that breaks things and then simply applying band aides to fix things instead of addressing problems head on.
I'm sure both of you can remember (and if not can at least look it up) that both Zyd and Mega used to be well above 4k per unit. I remember being able to mine in an 8 mining laser apoc and still being able to make some decent money back then (that was before barges had a good tank and the apoc was a great belt rat tank and miner back then) It wasn't until the drone regions and before mining anoms that things started to get wonky. Its was that new content that broke the game in terms of mining viability (aka isk per hour) given the steep drop in mineral prices.
Anyway, regardless, what I'm getting at is that if this does work, aka industry picks up in null, I still think because of the way anoms work that you will end up with excess high ends. In other words even with the doubling of zyd and mega usage in everything, if you guys actually start doing real industry in null like you want, the extra industry is going to offset the doubling and we end up right back with cheap zyd and mega that makes mining really not worth what it used to be. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1592
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 19:17:25 -
[245] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:Querns & Mr Omniblivion
I'm still surprised to see you guys so enthused by these changes. I still think CCP needs to be taken to task for continually introducing content that breaks things and then simply applying band aides to fix things instead of addressing problems head on.
I'm sure both of you can remember (and if not can at least look it up) that both Zyd and Mega used to be well above 4k per unit. I remember being able to mine in an 8 mining laser apoc and still being able to make some decent money back then (that was before barges had a good tank and the apoc was a great belt rat tank and miner back then) It wasn't until the drone regions and before mining anoms that things started to get wonky. Its was that new content that broke the game in terms of mining viability (aka isk per hour) given the steep drop in mineral prices.
Anyway, regardless, what I'm getting at is that if this does work, aka industry picks up in null, I still think because of the way anoms work that you will end up with excess high ends. In other words even with the doubling of zyd and mega usage in everything, if you guys actually start doing real industry in null like you want, the extra industry is going to offset the doubling and we end up right back with cheap zyd and mega that makes mining really not worth what it used to be. This is pretty much incorrect.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1052
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 19:20:42 -
[246] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:Querns & Mr Omniblivion
I'm still surprised to see you guys so enthused by these changes. I still think CCP needs to be taken to task for continually introducing content that breaks things and then simply applying band aides to fix things instead of addressing problems head on.
I'm sure both of you can remember (and if not can at least look it up) that both Zyd and Mega used to be well above 4k per unit. I remember being able to mine in an 8 mining laser apoc and still being able to make some decent money back then (that was before barges had a good tank and the apoc was a great belt rat tank and miner back then) It wasn't until the drone regions and before mining anoms that things started to get wonky. Its was that new content that broke the game in terms of mining viability (aka isk per hour) given the steep drop in mineral prices.
Anyway, regardless, what I'm getting at is that if this does work, aka industry picks up in null, I still think because of the way anoms work that you will end up with excess high ends. In other words even with the doubling of zyd and mega usage in everything, if you guys actually start doing real industry in null like you want, the extra industry is going to offset the doubling and we end up right back with cheap zyd and mega that makes mining really not worth what it used to be. zyd and mega are not **** because they're overproduced in a cosmic sense, they're **** because they're significantly overproduced relative to other materials
since you can't build things with just mega/zyd, if you have way more of it produced than other materials it will become worthless and whatever is bottlenecked will be worth something |
Valterra Craven
534
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 19:22:14 -
[247] - Quote
Querns wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:Querns & Mr Omniblivion
Stuff This is pretty much incorrect.
Could you please explain why? |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1592
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 19:29:06 -
[248] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:Querns wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:Querns & Mr Omniblivion
Stuff This is pretty much incorrect. Could you please explain why? Take a look at the site comps again and calculate how many minerals come from a given site, then compare it to ship mineral comps.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1692
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 19:57:50 -
[249] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:Querns & Mr Omniblivion
I'm still surprised to see you guys so enthused by these changes. I still think CCP needs to be taken to task for continually introducing content that breaks things and then simply applying band aides to fix things instead of addressing problems head on.
I'm sure both of you can remember (and if not can at least look it up) that both Zyd and Mega used to be well above 4k per unit. I remember being able to mine in an 8 mining laser apoc and still being able to make some decent money back then (that was before barges had a good tank and the apoc was a great belt rat tank and miner back then) It wasn't until the drone regions and before mining anoms that things started to get wonky. Its was that new content that broke the game in terms of mining viability (aka isk per hour) given the steep drop in mineral prices.
Anyway, regardless, what I'm getting at is that if this does work, aka industry picks up in null, I still think because of the way anoms work that you will end up with excess high ends. In other words even with the doubling of zyd and mega usage in everything, if you guys actually start doing real industry in null like you want, the extra industry is going to offset the doubling and we end up right back with cheap zyd and mega that makes mining really not worth what it used to be. zyd and mega are not **** because they're overproduced in a cosmic sense, they're **** because they're significantly overproduced relative to other materials since you can't build things with just mega/zyd, if you have way more of it produced than other materials it will become worthless and whatever is bottlenecked will be worth something
WIth the new anom balance, mega/zyd become the bottle neck right? |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
168
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 21:22:16 -
[250] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:"sure, it is trivially easy to be perfectly safe, but in order to be perfectly safe i would have to give up a smidgen of yield which, as a highsec bot-aspirant, i cannot conceive of"
if you want perfect safety being willing to pay for it
also protip: you don't have to put ore in the can
my god, i've mined once, a decade ago, and i know infinitely more on the subject than you do
Bots are fine sacrificing yield, humans are not.
also protip: "special" individuals do not care if you have ore in the can. They are going to loot it anyway, and having the said can near something as helpless as a mining barge is a tard magnet.
Being in a Skiff is not safety, it's a waste of time and ISK (Procurer is equally gank-safe, and, should it be lost in null, 10x cheaper to replace).
You are ignoring the problem that there is no viable barge which doesn't just die pathetically in nullsec outside of blue donut. And in hisec you will be bumped even if you can't be ganked, so having a Skiff solves nothing, atop being inefficient waste of time and ISK - one "special" person can still screw any mining OP, no matter what it fields, so fielding ships which have to stay there longer is something only gewn trolls (who think it's funny pretending to be dumb) could think off.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
|
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1717
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 21:31:55 -
[251] - Quote
Querns wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:Querns wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:Querns & Mr Omniblivion
Stuff This is pretty much incorrect. Could you please explain why? Take a look at the site comps again and calculate how many minerals come from a given site, then compare it to ship mineral comps.
I really don't know why you guys even bother trying to educate the pubbies. It is bad enough teaching goons.
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.
Creator of Burn Jita
Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1594
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 21:36:02 -
[252] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:EvilweaselSA wrote:"sure, it is trivially easy to be perfectly safe, but in order to be perfectly safe i would have to give up a smidgen of yield which, as a highsec bot-aspirant, i cannot conceive of"
if you want perfect safety being willing to pay for it
also protip: you don't have to put ore in the can
my god, i've mined once, a decade ago, and i know infinitely more on the subject than you do Bots are fine sacrificing yield, humans are not. also protip: "special" individuals do not care if you have ore in the can. They are going to loot it anyway, and having the said can near something as helpless as a mining barge is a tard magnet. Being in a Skiff is not safety, it's a waste of time and ISK (Procurer is equally gank-safe, and, should it be lost in null, 10x cheaper to replace). You are ignoring the problem that there is no viable barge which doesn't just die pathetically in nullsec outside of blue donut. And in hisec you will be bumped even if you can't be ganked, so having a Skiff solves nothing, atop being inefficient waste of time and ISK - one "special" person can still screw any mining OP, no matter what it fields, so fielding ships which have to stay there longer is something only gewn trolls (who think it's funny pretending to be dumb) could think of. So what sort of EHP would you consider to not "die pathetically"? I am interested to hear how deep this well of cognitive dissonance goes.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down Tactical Narcotics Team
75
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 21:40:10 -
[253] - Quote
I dont know, I kind of enjoy watching people try to skate up hill. The masses of high sec have their blinders on so tight that they can not see past anything more then blue doughnut or grr goons. It also give me great joy to see players so unwilling to adapt that at every change they are drug along instead of finding solutions and profiting off changes.
Also I really like the posters idea about giving mining barges some weaponized defense. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1594
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 21:40:35 -
[254] - Quote
Oh, also:
Basil Pupkin wrote: You are ignoring the problem that there is no viable barge which doesn't just die pathetically in nullsec outside of blue donut. And in hisec you will be bumped even if you can't be ganked, so having a Skiff solves nothing, atop being inefficient waste of time and ISK - one "special" person can still screw any mining OP, no matter what it fields, so fielding ships which have to stay there longer is something only gewn trolls (who think it's funny pretending to be dumb) could think of.
So at first barges die pathetically, then they don't because of "blue donut?"
The barge is at once incredibly vulnerable, and invincible as well?
It is wise to use the rational part of your brain to post instead of the part of your brain with turbulent emotion and memes that you don't even understand.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2285
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 21:50:57 -
[255] - Quote
I'm pretty sure all ships die pathetically quickly in hostile space. Not just barges. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1594
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 21:56:41 -
[256] - Quote
Rowells wrote:I'm pretty sure all ships die pathetically quickly in hostile space. Not just barges. Not with the bulwark of the BLUE DONUT guarding them!
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Dentia Caecus
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 22:20:41 -
[257] - Quote
Sadly, this thread has been thoroughly hijacked, has devolved into a chest-beating discussion of 0.0 politics and is pretty much dead.
If for some reason, CCP Fozzie or other devs are actually still watching this thread, I am looking forward to any feedback regarding the handful of posts that are both on topic and provide feedback, including, but not limited to:
Do the devs intend to create new bottlenecks such as zydrine; requests for a little more mex ; requests for m3 changes of roids, even though OP says not at this time; addressing comments that the changes do not address mining problems ( even if a dev comment is the "other" issues are left for another time, including exhumer tank, the rorqual obsolescence, etc. ); anything else the devs find relevant.
Thanks
|
Tinkers
Pixie Hollow Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 22:25:46 -
[258] - Quote
If you are going to keep Mercoxit in the anoms, you need to increase the morphite usage, a lot. How about adding it to Alchemy to increase the output/efficiency? |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1597
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 22:48:34 -
[259] - Quote
Dentia Caecus wrote:Sadly, this thread has been thoroughly hijacked, has devolved into a chest-beating discussion of 0.0 politics and is pretty much dead.
I agree; if only all those other people with dangerously uninformed opinions hadn't started raising a fuss with their tantrum emitters.
Really; one should leave it to the pros to discuss things. People like me.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Sienna Vanjarc
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
1
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 23:22:11 -
[260] - Quote
I understand and really like the intention of making sov-null more self-sufficient, and increasing income for nullsec miners (to fix risk/reward). That change is needed. But i have the fear this change will reduce income of highsec-miners, possibly even making it not worthwile. This is not needed by any means, as their income is very low already. So you might want to rework the highsec-ores too.
Besides, i want to suggest, that the ore-specialized mining-anomalys (not ice-belts and the ihub-sites), were scannable grave-sites again. This would especially be usefull for mining in lowsec and npc-null, where you don't have unlimited resources like sov 0.0 but the same kind of risk. |
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1597
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 23:30:36 -
[261] - Quote
Sienna Vanjarc wrote:I understand and really like the intention of making sov-null more self-sufficient, and increasing income for nullsec miners (to fix risk/reward). That change is needed. But i have the fear this change will reduce income of highsec-miners, possibly even making it not worthwile. This is not needed by any means, as their income is very low already. So you might want to rework the highsec-ores too.
Besides, i want to suggest, that the ore-specialized mining-anomalys (not ice-belts and the ihub-sites), were scannable grav-sites again. This would especially be usefull for mining in lowsec and npc-null, where you don't have unlimited resources like sov 0.0 but the same kind of risk. Folks mined the hell out of highsec back when trit was under 3 isk a unit. They'll be fine.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
226
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 01:20:01 -
[262] - Quote
Fredric Wolf wrote:I dont know, I kind of enjoy watching people try to skate up hill. The masses of high sec have their blinders on so tight that they can not see past anything more then blue doughnut or grr goons. It also give me great joy to see players so unwilling to adapt that at every change they are drug along instead of finding solutions and profiting off changes.
Also I really like the posters idea about giving mining barges some weaponized defense. Just how do we "adapt" to a straight income nerf. Don't say move somewhere else that isn't a solution anymore than you moving to highsec and playing the game from there would be.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1600
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 01:23:05 -
[263] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Fredric Wolf wrote:I dont know, I kind of enjoy watching people try to skate up hill. The masses of high sec have their blinders on so tight that they can not see past anything more then blue doughnut or grr goons. It also give me great joy to see players so unwilling to adapt that at every change they are drug along instead of finding solutions and profiting off changes.
Also I really like the posters idea about giving mining barges some weaponized defense. Just how do we "adapt" to a straight income nerf. Don't say move somewhere else that isn't a solution anymore than you moving to highsec and playing the game from there would be. You adapt by making less money than you did before. It's not hard.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1411
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 02:08:53 -
[264] - Quote
Querns wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Fredric Wolf wrote:I dont know, I kind of enjoy watching people try to skate up hill. The masses of high sec have their blinders on so tight that they can not see past anything more then blue doughnut or grr goons. It also give me great joy to see players so unwilling to adapt that at every change they are drug along instead of finding solutions and profiting off changes.
Also I really like the posters idea about giving mining barges some weaponized defense. Just how do we "adapt" to a straight income nerf. Don't say move somewhere else that isn't a solution anymore than you moving to highsec and playing the game from there would be. You adapt by making less money than you did before. It's not hard.
And before people get all mad at this, keep in mind that nullsec in the past has had sweeping changes that massively dropped income levels of many or all regions.
The removal of static complexes.
The removal of Drone Poop.
The loot refining nerfs that stopped ratters from literally get more minerals than a hulk just by ratting and refining.
The anomaly nerf that suddenly cut the value of high truesec space to shreds by tying anomaly spawning to truesec levels. (This one was absolutely brutal)
We took our lumps and adapted by fighting over and concentrating in lower truesec space, by swapping to running incursions and WH's on altcorps, running larger reaction farms, and spreading out vast empires that we could rent out for a small fee, even in now mediocre space.
It may be harsh, but you too can adapt to change. Some highsec miners will switch to missions, or production, or invention. Maybe it will be blueprint services, or incursions, or scamming or trading or PI.
Maybe they will get really ballsy and actually try out faction warfare, Wormholes, or nullsec.
Adapt, and overcome. |
Simon Alfrir
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 02:34:43 -
[265] - Quote
Quote:
These changes are intended to make Nullsec more self sufficient then it is currently. We continue to believe that no area of space should be completely independent of any other, but there is a lot of room to make nullsec more self sufficient and improve the opportunities for zero-sec miners and industrialists.
Why is Highsec completely dependent upon Nullsec/Lowsec for some materials? When (if ever) will Highsec be more self sufficient? Null miners/industrialists already have a number of benefits already in place. It seems that the only people who will benefit are those who are already doing quite well in the game and control Null, hence their strong interest in this thread.
From a r/p aspect: Why would the empire not go into Null and claim the area for themselves? They would logically inhabit the areas or attempt to control areas which are rich in minerals. I'm ready to claim what is rightfully ours, let the war begin!
I would also ask CCP to investigate the possible insider trading of Zydrine and Megacyte prior to the announcement of these changes being made public. I believe that the there may have been large spikes in the purchases of both minerals before CCP Fozzie went onto Twitch with the initial announcement. Has this been looked into?
My opinion/feedback: This is a major change and is coming at the same time as SOV changes are taking place. Too much/too fast. I ask that the SOV changes go in first and the areas stabilize first. These changes should go in at a different time months from now and be phased into place. It's not broke right now so step it down a notch or two. |
Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1411
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 02:45:32 -
[266] - Quote
Simon Alfrir wrote:
From a r/p aspect: Why would the empire not go into Null and claim the area for themselves? They would logically inhabit the areas or attempt to control areas which are rich in minerals. I'm ready to claim what is rightfully ours, let the war begin!
I would also ask CCP to investigate the possible insider trading of Zydrine and Megacyte prior to the announcement of these changes being made public. I believe that the there may have been large spikes in the purchases of both minerals before CCP Fozzie went onto Twitch with the initial announcement. Has this been looked into?
On the first note, the empires are not all powerful. They have limited manpower and their constituents naturally would prefer they not lose tends of millions of lives and untold tax isk trying to subdue nullsec. Also gameplay choices.
On the second section, the show where they actually announced the doubled highend requirements was not the first thing CCP said about this change. A dev had earlier stated an intention of rebalancing anomalies and production values. And I believe the day of show a dev mentioned they would be announcing the specifics at the show. Those of us who watch the market trends and tend to think long term about these sort of things more or less figured out what was going to happen from that much.
I personally didn't have the isk to sink into highends when CCP started muttering about changes, but the only direction for highend prices was up, so I would have done so if I didn't have all my money sunk into seeding my alliance market hub.
No insider trading required. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2290
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 02:48:24 -
[267] - Quote
It was fozzie on the last o7 show where they broke the news. Unfortunately I was at school (watching the stream) so I didn't have the chance to cash in on it.
They even joked about the opportunity to "make money for watching the show"
e: of course after rereading the posts above I realize my redundant statement |
Simon Alfrir
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 03:36:42 -
[268] - Quote
I saw the spikes 8 hours after the announcement on Twitch. It appears the purchases were made before the show. They are still visible, more so with Meg.
It's possible speculation from Fanfest but it appears they did not purchase Morphite and only bought large quantities of Megacyte and Zydrine. There is probably little that can be done but it looks very suspicious and below board to me. This seemed as good a place as any to raise my suspicions about it. I think it also demonstrates how drastic these changes are to the game.Let's let them sit on those assets for a few more months and slow down these changes. |
Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1412
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 03:47:05 -
[269] - Quote
Simon Alfrir wrote:I saw the spikes 8 hours after the announcement on Twitch. It appears the purchases were made before the show. They are still visible, more so with Meg.
It's possible speculation from Fanfest but it appears they did not purchase Morphite and only bought large quantities of Megacyte and Zydrine. There is probably little that can be done but it looks very suspicious and below board to me. This seemed as good a place as any to raise my suspicions about it. I think it also demonstrates how drastic these changes are to the game.Let's let them sit on those assets for a few more months and slow down these changes.
There are few words to describe just how huge the stockpile of Morphite is.
Nobody would speculate on Morphite because there is probably five years of excess Morphite tucked away in peoples hangars that they have been holding onto in hopes that it would someday have a higher demand.
Unlike highends which can just be paired with more lowends, the demand for Morphite is tied to t2 manufacturing and the static supply of moongoo.
There's literally nothing to do with the stuff but make t2 items, and that demand is capped by the moongoo supply. As such, all excess Morphite production has just piled up in hangar corners for years since supply exceeds demand.
Still not an indicator for conspiracy, just savvy speculators. |
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
226
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 05:06:49 -
[270] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Querns wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Fredric Wolf wrote:I dont know, I kind of enjoy watching people try to skate up hill. The masses of high sec have their blinders on so tight that they can not see past anything more then blue doughnut or grr goons. It also give me great joy to see players so unwilling to adapt that at every change they are drug along instead of finding solutions and profiting off changes.
Also I really like the posters idea about giving mining barges some weaponized defense. Just how do we "adapt" to a straight income nerf. Don't say move somewhere else that isn't a solution anymore than you moving to highsec and playing the game from there would be. You adapt by making less money than you did before. It's not hard. And before people get all mad at this, keep in mind that nullsec in the past has had sweeping changes that massively dropped income levels of many or all regions. The removal of static complexes. The removal of Drone Poop. The loot refining nerfs that stopped ratters from literally get more minerals than a hulk just by ratting and refining. The anomaly nerf that suddenly cut the value of high truesec space to shreds by tying anomaly spawning to truesec levels. (This one was absolutely brutal)We took our lumps and adapted by fighting over and concentrating in lower truesec space, by swapping to running incursions and WH's on altcorps, running larger reaction farms, and spreading out vast empires that we could rent out for a small fee, even in now mediocre space. It may be harsh, but you too can adapt to change. Some highsec miners will switch to missions, or production, or invention. Maybe it will be blueprint services, or incursions, or scamming or trading or PI. Maybe they will get really ballsy and actually try out faction warfare, Wormholes, or nullsec. Adapt, and overcome. I Want to mine in highsec space, that is my chosen profession and game playing region. I in no way expect untold riches or widespread acclaim for doing so but I do expect my already modest income to be kept from going into the toilet.
This discussion is about mining, industrialists, and miners. Not about people that want to do FW, incursions, scamming and all the rest of that irrelevant stuff you are bringing up. If I wanted to do all that other stuff I would not have made a single post in this thread.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
|
|
Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1413
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 05:25:46 -
[271] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote: I Want to mine in highsec space, that is my chosen profession and game playing region. I in no way expect untold riches or widespread acclaim for doing so but I do expect my already modest income to be kept from going into the toilet.
This discussion is about mining, industrialists, and miners. Not about people that want to do FW, incursions, scamming and all the rest of that irrelevant stuff you are bringing up. If I wanted to do all that other stuff I would not have made a single post in this thread. And you arrived at the conclusion that what you do, unlike every other activity in the game, was a protected activity where CCP was not allowed to make changes that could negative impact your income....
Why again?
I'm honestly curious. Your chosen profession in game is the most reactive portion of the supply/demand economy, yet you believe that you should be exempt from changes in supply and demand if they would negatively effect you. |
Karak Bol
Low-Sec Survival Ltd.
207
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 05:36:56 -
[272] - Quote
Just an idea regarding Lowsec Mining:
Could you increase the number of Mining Anomalys in Low as you did with the WH Spawns? Could make mining Lowsec a bit safer (more places to check for PvPers), more profitable and most important, maybe a bit more interesting for Highseccers to test the lowsec waters. |
Simon Alfrir
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 05:59:39 -
[273] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote: I Want to mine in highsec space, that is my chosen profession and game playing region. I in no way expect untold riches or widespread acclaim for doing so but I do expect my already modest income to be kept from going into the toilet.
This discussion is about mining, industrialists, and miners. Not about people that want to do FW, incursions, scamming and all the rest of that irrelevant stuff you are bringing up. If I wanted to do all that other stuff I would not have made a single post in this thread. And you arrived at the conclusion that what you do, unlike every other activity in the game, was a protected activity where CCP was not allowed to make changes that could negative impact your income.... Why again? I'm honestly curious. Your chosen profession in game is the most reactive portion of the economy in terms of supply and demand, yet you believe that you should be exempt from changes in supply and demand if they would negatively effect you. Before Nullsec started churning out supercaps by the hundreds, Tritanium hovered at 3.5 ish isk per unit, and Pyerite at 7. As of a week or two ago, Trit was at almost 6, and Pyerite at 13. You might not like it, but the fact is that you have been living fat off of an unnatural level of demand for Trit for years. Unnatural in that sooner or later, CCP was going to do something to stop it, and mineral prices would sink back towards pre-demand levels. So if your income drops by 1/3, it's not that CCP has a mad on for you, it's simply that the changes to nullsec canceled your food stamps, and you actually have to rely on more local market demand to drive demand.
I always thought this was a player driven economy. These changes are not driven by us but by CCP. He has every right to question them as do I. It is going to make the rich, richer. I see a problem with that. Miners can not suddenly fight over the resources so this is not adding to any game content.
You live in Nullsec. Tell us why these changes are necessary. What is not working in the game for you guys? Does this have to do with jump fatigue making it hard to move things down there? Why are nullsec corps not actively seeking miners given these recent changes to the game? I've visited the recruiting forums and miners for nullsec corps are never wanted it's only PvPers. Is there an adequate risk to miners in Null that would warrant these changes? I've read that the better corps protect their mining ops fairly well. Where is the added risk then that warrants these changes?
|
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2292
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 06:24:08 -
[274] - Quote
Simon Alfrir wrote:Edit: I do believe in risk/reward. I went over to zkillboard and searched on some of the mining ships to see where the kills are located. It's roughly 50/50 with just over half of the kills happening due to gankers in Highsec. Given that it is so dangerous to be a miner I feel compelled to demand we have access to nullsec ores in highsec. Fair is fair. Do you believe the number of miners in null is equivalent to that in highsec? |
Simon Alfrir
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 06:44:26 -
[275] - Quote
Thanks, I am having a look over the rest of the thread as the initial post, your post and the announcement didn't answer my questions. For the entire game I believe the total amount of ISK lost for mining is equal between nullsec and highsec. I believe that currently the amount of money made per miner is far greater for those who do it in Nullsec. (You are already being rewarded).
Maybe you can clear it up. How much do your miners make per hour right now?
It is very hard to be profitable with industry in Highsec, I know this first hand. I heard/read that PI was also not worth doing in Highsec but does well in low/Null. Now mining is going south as well. I would like to know how many miners has your corp lost in the past month. Can you prove to me that mining in Null has added risks which warrant getting a larger reward? |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
168
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 06:53:46 -
[276] - Quote
Querns wrote:So what sort of EHP would you consider to not "die pathetically"? I am interested to hear how deep this well of cognitive dissonance goes. Any EHP would die, more EHP just takes longer to do so. Barge is fundamentally defenseless, no matter how much EHP it brings. In null outside of blue donut it will just die longer, in hi it will be bumped all over the place, EHP doesn't solve any of those problems, and pretending that it matters is typical igewnorance.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
|
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2292
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 07:38:29 -
[277] - Quote
Simon Alfrir wrote:Thanks, I am having a look over the rest of the thread as the initial post, your post and the announcement didn't answer my questions. For the entire game I believe the total amount of ISK lost for mining is equal between nullsec and highsec. I believe that currently the amount of money made per miner is far greater for those who do it in Nullsec. (You are already being rewarded). Ok, so unless the number of miners in each sector are roughly equal, a 50/50 split doesnt show a similar trend. If there are more miners in highsec, a 50/50 means more losses per person null. If more miners in null, then higher loss per person in highsec. The 50/50 ratio shows us nothing about frequency.
Simon Alfrir wrote:Maybe you can clear it up. How much do your miners make per hour right now? Before the recent market shenanigans, I would say 40-60mil/hr being the appropriate range, however those numbers are very dependent on which ores they chose and fits they used and gang links and other such factors.
Simon Alfrir wrote:It is very hard to be profitable with industry in Highsec, I know this first hand. I heard/read that PI was also not worth doing in Highsec but does well in low/Null. Now mining is going south as well. I would like to know how many miners has your corp lost in the past month. Can you prove to me that mining in Null has added risks which warrant getting a larger reward? I couldn't actually say how many miners we've lost. Circumstances beyond my control had a corp merger and a brief period of time away from the game (about a month or two). Even before that I can only say I was aware of about 5 other miners (pilots, not to include alts) personally, though i'm sure there were a few more. However there were a couple that mined ice primarily as I did for a period before glitter value tanked.
As for the extra risk? Essentially it comes down to the difference in mechanics.
- In null anyone can shoot you at any time, so anytime hostiles came around you had to either dock up and wait or get in a fleet to fight.
- The logistics to move the ore to highsec includes its own risks as well. Depending on the size of your shipment you could end up losing a lot, it didn't happen often (I praise our JF pilots on this), but I'm aware that some groups have honed skills on hunting hostile JF pilots. And this is necessary since there is only so much you can do with surplus high-ends if you keep it local, and then you have to decide whether to refine at home and keep the low ends or if it is more profitable to save the cargo space in compressed form
- Then there is the sov and index requirements. This can be considered to be split up amongst the alliance, but it definitely makes it very difficult if you try to run the operation with less people.
- Risk to assets if you lose your station, and the loss of isk on anything destroyed in the process of defense (ihubs, TCUs, ships, etc.).
Most of these risks are shared by the group, and also the methods used to reduce it are shared as well, but adding all of these divided costs still adds up to quite a bit more than what is needed in any other area of space. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2292
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 07:43:40 -
[278] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Querns wrote:So what sort of EHP would you consider to not "die pathetically"? I am interested to hear how deep this well of cognitive dissonance goes. Any EHP would die, more EHP just takes longer to do so. Barge is fundamentally defenseless, no matter how much EHP it brings. In null outside of blue donut it will just die longer, in hi it will be bumped all over the place, EHP doesn't solve any of those problems, and pretending that it matters is typical igewnorance. so, what in your opinion, would make them safe enough then?
I still stand by my statement, that any ship trying to do things in hostile space will die. |
Simon Alfrir
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 07:56:15 -
[279] - Quote
Thanks for the answers Rowells. Your miners currently make about 4-5 more than me and do have more risk. Transportation is also a greater risk. I'm trying to understand why it is needed and I just don't see it. The system seems to be working. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2293
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 08:14:13 -
[280] - Quote
Simon Alfrir wrote:Thanks for the answers Rowells. Your miners currently make about 4-5 more than me and do have more risk. Transportation is also a greater risk. I'm trying to understand why it is needed and I just don't see it. The system seems to be working. Forgive me if I don't believe that number, My low end estimate includes the low end ores, so I'm a bit skeptical on how two of the same ores mined in different areas of space are worth less in one and not another.
and as for the shipment aspect I'll have to disagree again. The only risk is of being ganked, and their are plenty of deterant options available if the pilot is so inclined to choose. A little bit anecdotal here, but the only times I've ever lost a hauler were in low and nul (excluding that one time I learned the rules about entering hostile faction space in highsec). both losses were above 500mil too (freighter+lowsec=badidea). The only real difference I would argue is you cant use JF jump drive between systems. |
|
Simon Alfrir
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 08:25:55 -
[281] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Simon Alfrir wrote:Thanks for the answers Rowells. Your miners currently make about 4-5 more than me and do have more risk. Transportation is also a greater risk. I'm trying to understand why it is needed and I just don't see it. The system seems to be working. Forgive me if I don't believe that number, My low end estimate includes the low end ores, so I'm a bit skeptical on how two of the same ores mined in different areas of space are worth less in one and not another. and as for the shipment aspect I'll have to disagree again. The only risk is of being ganked, and their are plenty of deterant options available if the pilot is so inclined to choose. A little bit anecdotal here, but the only times I've ever lost a hauler were in low and nul (excluding that one time I learned the rules about entering hostile faction space in highsec). both losses were above 500mil too (freighter+lowsec=badidea). The only real difference I would argue is you cant use JF jump drive between systems.
Currently I can make about 10 Mill. an hour in a barge mining ore. You stated you make between 40-60 Mill. an hour. So you make 4-6 times more than I do. I also am acknowledging that transportation is riskier for you in Null. My income is now going to slip. I will be making less and your numbers will rise you will be making more. BTW, our haulers also are increasingly at risk of being ganked. It's not a zero-risk process.
Can you honestly tell me your miners/industry are currently so hobbled that these changes are necessary?
|
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2295
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 09:11:29 -
[282] - Quote
Simon Alfrir wrote:Rowells wrote:Simon Alfrir wrote:Thanks for the answers Rowells. Your miners currently make about 4-5 more than me and do have more risk. Transportation is also a greater risk. I'm trying to understand why it is needed and I just don't see it. The system seems to be working. Forgive me if I don't believe that number, My low end estimate includes the low end ores, so I'm a bit skeptical on how two of the same ores mined in different areas of space are worth less in one and not another. and as for the shipment aspect I'll have to disagree again. The only risk is of being ganked, and their are plenty of deterant options available if the pilot is so inclined to choose. A little bit anecdotal here, but the only times I've ever lost a hauler were in low and nul (excluding that one time I learned the rules about entering hostile faction space in highsec). both losses were above 500mil too (freighter+lowsec=badidea). The only real difference I would argue is you cant use JF jump drive between systems. Currently I can make about 10 Mill. an hour in a barge mining ore. You stated you make between 40-60 Mill. an hour. So you make 4-6 times more than I do. I also am acknowledging that transportation is riskier for you in Null. My income is now going to slip. I will be making less and your numbers will rise you will be making more. BTW, our haulers also are increasingly at risk of being ganked. It's not a zero-risk process. Can you honestly tell me your miners/industry are currently so hobbled that these changes are necessary? I would like some details on that setup before i try to hazard any guesses why the income is so low. I'm not even matching any numbers like that on any of my tools. Closest I could get is omber, which is currently the worst ore to mine for value.
The problem these changes address wasn't just the isk/hr comparison. It was the large disparity of the minerals in high end ores. If you were to mine everything you could get your hands on you would end up with a massive overstock of high end mins, which surely doesn't encourage the kind of sov space use that is being expected.
currently you have little choice, but to mine the best you can get and ship to empire so you can use the isk to buy what you need. I don't have the stats on all builds, however meg and zyd take up an extremely small portion of the bill. This is one of the things explained in the OP, the price changes on final products will be almost negligible, whereas if you have serious amounts of it in surplus, you are going to earn quite a bit more for it. While at the same time, some extra minerals are being removed with some higher volume of others added, to make the ores themselves line up more closely with actual manufacturing demands. Meaning it will be easier than before to use your own space to your advantage.
In case you weren't aware, the low end ores typically take up the vast majority of the cost in any assembly line. anywhere from 90% of the cost and 95% of the volume depending on what you build (im currently looking at the spread on a super which has higher ratios than mentioned). |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1600
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 10:24:09 -
[283] - Quote
Simon Alfrir wrote: I would also ask CCP to investigate the possible insider trading of Zydrine and Megacyte prior to the announcement of these changes being made public. I believe that the there may have been large spikes in the purchases of both minerals before CCP Fozzie went onto Twitch with the initial announcement. Has this been looked into?
There's nothing to investigate. These changes were announced first at Fanfest. You are aware that anyone can watch the Fanfest stream, without going to Iceland, right?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Simon Alfrir
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 10:29:26 -
[284] - Quote
I'm in a retriever solo mining. 2 strip miner IIs, 2 mining crystal IIs, 5 mining drone IIs when I can get them out. My guess is you are getting rorqual boosts and maybe in an exhumer. I am getting my exhumer going in a few more weeks but the rorq is of course not allowed in Highsec. I could try to find a free Orca boost but there goes the idea of solo mining.
Again, are you hurting that badly in Nullsec where this change is necessary? I don't mind a little pain if it helps balance things out but I don't think it's needed given all the things you guys already get that we can't use due to CCPs heavy hand. These changes seem far too large and are from my standpoint unnecessary. I don't expect it to add any additional players to Null given the lack of recruitment posts on the board for miners. I've been checking and it's fairly silent unless you want to go with a small outfit and have a big target on your back. Or should we pay up and become renters? That's not my play style at all. |
Captain Semper
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
69
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 10:39:58 -
[285] - Quote
When will we see mining redesign?! Mining drone redesign (srsly, their speed...)? Tell us CCP! Please... |
Simon Alfrir
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 10:40:24 -
[286] - Quote
Querns wrote:Simon Alfrir wrote: I would also ask CCP to investigate the possible insider trading of Zydrine and Megacyte prior to the announcement of these changes being made public. I believe that the there may have been large spikes in the purchases of both minerals before CCP Fozzie went onto Twitch with the initial announcement. Has this been looked into?
There's nothing to investigate. These changes were announced first at Fanfest. You are aware that anyone can watch the Fanfest stream, without going to Iceland, right?
That is for CCP to determine, not you. I am not the only one who has questioned the trades therefore it deserves being looked into. |
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Shadow of xXDEATHXx
178
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 11:27:57 -
[287] - Quote
my sheets show veldspar at 40m per hour scordite at 50m per hour
where as spodumain is also at 50m per hour, mercoxit is 50m per hour, dark ochre 50m per hour.
before the announcement, abc's were averaging 40m per hour.
this figures are baised on an exhumers 5 hulk with bonuses, no drones or implants.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1600
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 11:57:18 -
[288] - Quote
Simon Alfrir wrote:Querns wrote:Simon Alfrir wrote: I would also ask CCP to investigate the possible insider trading of Zydrine and Megacyte prior to the announcement of these changes being made public. I believe that the there may have been large spikes in the purchases of both minerals before CCP Fozzie went onto Twitch with the initial announcement. Has this been looked into?
There's nothing to investigate. These changes were announced first at Fanfest. You are aware that anyone can watch the Fanfest stream, without going to Iceland, right? That is for CCP to determine, not you. I am not the only one who has questioned the trades therefore it deserves being looked into. It's up to CCP to determine whether or not they announced the changes at Fanfest?
I mean, shit, I'll admit to buying the hell out of highends after the Fanfest announcement. It was a smart buy and one was an idiot for not getting in on a painfully obvious thing.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1600
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 12:34:10 -
[289] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:outside of blue donut How do you get "outside" a blue donut? A donut implies that all of nullsec is blue to each other. Saying that areas are "outside" of it fundamentally implies that not all of nullsec is blue to each other.
Which is it?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1097
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 12:40:24 -
[290] - Quote
Querns wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:outside of blue donut How do you get "outside" a blue donut? A donut implies that all of nullsec is blue to each other. Saying that areas are "outside" of it fundamentally implies that not all of nullsec is blue to each other. Which is it?
Perhaps it's the bit cut out of the middle and set aside so that hisec can fit in the hole
Maybe that bit is where the Drifters came from |
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1600
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 12:55:27 -
[291] - Quote
Simon Alfrir wrote: Again, are you hurting that badly in Nullsec where this change is necessary? I don't mind a little pain if it helps balance things out but I don't think it's needed given all the things you guys already get that we can't use due to CCPs heavy hand. These changes seem far too large and are from my standpoint unnecessary. I don't expect it to add any additional players to Null given the lack of recruitment posts on the board for miners. I've been checking and it's fairly silent unless you want to go with a small outfit and have a big target on your back. Or should we pay up and become renters? That's not my play style at all.
CCP's goal is to reduce the reliance of nullsec on the almighty Jump Freighter, and its reliance on Jita. To do so, more self-sufficiency is required.
Nullsec groups tend not to recruit miners because miners don't actively contribute to the defense of an empire. Furthermore, mining is not a particularly difficult thing to train; PvPers will typically train PvE alts or train PvE skills as a secondary objective on their main. Right now, it's also not necessary GÇö a single pilot with 10 JF characters can do the work of hundreds of miners by JFing in compressed ore. Additionally, dedicated industrialists tend to be the worst drama llamas known to eve online (second only to FCs.)
Regarding "all the things you guys already get," you vastly underestimate the amount of work and will needed to keep an area of nullsec. You need military power to take and hold space. You need logistical power to deploy and maintain sov structures, and to fuel towers. You need a steady income stream to pay sov bills. (One particular upgrade costs 600m a month to keep online!) You need diplomatic power to maintain good standings with your neighbors and to put out brush fires between members. For all that, you get moderately nicer mining and ratting.
If your playstyle is solo, more power to you, but you are playing a game in which cooperation is vastly rewarded. CCP will always reward cooperation over solo play due to its demonstrable effect on retention.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1600
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 12:57:35 -
[292] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Querns wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:outside of blue donut How do you get "outside" a blue donut? A donut implies that all of nullsec is blue to each other. Saying that areas are "outside" of it fundamentally implies that not all of nullsec is blue to each other. Which is it? Perhaps it's the bit cut out of the middle and set aside so that hisec can fit in the hole Maybe that bit is where the Drifters came from So, Drifters are the filling of a blue jelly donut?
(i'm hungry)
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
sackofwine
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 13:27:28 -
[293] - Quote
Bah this reminds me of when ccp killed drone poo. All that is going to happen is prices go up, and null seccers mine the snot out of the anomalies-- and then prices will crash. Long term we will be lucky if megacyte stays in the 1300-1500 range and zydrine in the 700-900 range. Whoop-ti-do. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1097
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 13:32:23 -
[294] - Quote
Querns wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Querns wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:outside of blue donut How do you get "outside" a blue donut? A donut implies that all of nullsec is blue to each other. Saying that areas are "outside" of it fundamentally implies that not all of nullsec is blue to each other. Which is it? Perhaps it's the bit cut out of the middle and set aside so that hisec can fit in the hole Maybe that bit is where the Drifters came from So, Drifters are the filling of a blue jelly donut? (i'm hungry)
I was thinking more along the lines of strwberry jam once they're pulverized :D
General interest for folks here...say hello to the future:
http://www.baesystems.com/article/BAES_038654/bae-systems-newest-naval-railgun-prototype-fires-first-shot?_afrLoop=3133069812279000&_afrWindowMode=0&_afrWindowId=null#!%40%40%3F_afrWindowId%3Dnull%26_afrLoop%3D3133069812279000%26_afrWindowMode%3D0%26_adf.ctrl-state%3Dpnziqtu4a_4 |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1717
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 14:19:41 -
[295] - Quote
Simon Alfrir wrote:I saw the spikes 8 hours after the announcement on Twitch. It appears the purchases were made before the show. They are still visible, more so with Meg.
It's possible speculation from Fanfest but it appears they did not purchase Morphite and only bought large quantities of Megacyte and Zydrine. There is probably little that can be done but it looks very suspicious and below board to me. This seemed as good a place as any to raise my suspicions about it. I think it also demonstrates how drastic these changes are to the game.Let's let them sit on those assets for a few more months and slow down these changes.
We were investing last year, I have called multiple hits for goonkind in the past few months. How would you explain this behavior without LEAKS OMGOMG.
Oh right, because smart people predict what CCP is going to do either way.
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.
Creator of Burn Jita
Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
106
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 15:15:27 -
[296] - Quote
Simon Alfrir wrote: I would also ask CCP to investigate the possible insider trading of Zydrine and Megacyte prior to the announcement of these changes being made public. I believe that the there may have been large spikes in the purchases of both minerals before CCP Fozzie went onto Twitch with the initial announcement. Has this been looked into?
Oh, HAHAHAHA!
So you missed my March 20 thread in Science & Trade - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=413489&find=unread ?
And then you missed another March 20th thread in Market Discussion - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=413509&find=unread ?
I am indeed very sorry for placing large volume spikes on your charts.
Xaxaxa
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
186
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 15:51:48 -
[297] - Quote
Ncc 1709 wrote:my sheets show veldspar at 40m per hour scordite at 50m per hour
where as spodumain is also at 50m per hour, mercoxit is 50m per hour, dark ochre 50m per hour.
before the announcement, abc's were averaging 40m per hour.
this figures are baised on an exhumers 5 hulk with bonuses, no drones or implants.
I don't have any experience of revenue from null-sec mining so I can't comment on your workings for Spodumain, Mercoxit, & Dark Ochre.
On the other hand if you actually want to sell your mined materials , even in compressed format which is optimal, you will not get 40 million ISK p/h from mining even Dense Veldspar let alone the standard Veldspar variant. Using an absolute maxed skilled Orca/Hulk combo but without a Michi fitted you are talking 25 million ISK p/h mining Veldspar and Scordite will bring in less than this. Throwing ****** statistics out like those I have quoted from your post above will not get you anywhere.
Regarding insider trading I'm reminded of the famous quote from the main character in 'House of Cards'. A lot of stirring GSF forum posts regarding Megacyte & Zydrine price increases came before CCP Fozzies Fanfest announcement that, in all but name, GSF had convinced him to do the announced ore changes in null-sec. I'll leave it up to you to decide if this is the case or not. |
Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1413
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 16:20:35 -
[298] - Quote
Bethan Le Troix wrote:Ncc 1709 wrote:my sheets show veldspar at 40m per hour scordite at 50m per hour
where as spodumain is also at 50m per hour, mercoxit is 50m per hour, dark ochre 50m per hour.
before the announcement, abc's were averaging 40m per hour.
this figures are baised on an exhumers 5 hulk with bonuses, no drones or implants.
I don't have any experience of revenue from null-sec mining so I can't comment on your workings for Spodumain, Mercoxit, & Dark Ochre. On the other hand if you actually want to sell your mined materials , even in compressed format which is optimal, you will not get 40 million ISK p/h from mining even Dense Veldspar let alone the standard Veldspar variant. Using an absolute maxed skilled Orca/Hulk combo but without a Michi fitted you are talking 25 million ISK p/h mining Veldspar and Scordite will bring in less than this. Throwing ****** statistics out like those I have quoted from your post above will not get you anywhere. Regarding insider trading I'm reminded of the famous quote from the main character in 'House of Cards'. A lot of stirring GSF forum posts regarding Megacyte & Zydrine price increases came before CCP Fozzies Fanfest announcement that, in all but name, GSF had convinced him to do the announced ore changes in null-sec. I'll leave it up to you to decide if this is the case or not.
1: Are your figures "paper figures" or yield in practice?. Because due to the huge nature of the rocks in nullsec, actual yield is far higher due to barely losing any ore to partial cycles.
From a few minutes of EFT, I get 3100 (rounded down from 3139) m3 per minute on a Hulk with one MLU and rorqual boosts, using t2 Veldspar crystals.
That's 186,000 m3 per hour of Veldspar if everything was perfect. Using mineral values pulled off of the Cerlestes table for today (And before you ask, yes accounting for the new not perfect refining efficiency), Veldspar is worth 203 isk per m3 in minerals.
Ehh.... 186,000 * 203 = 37.75 million per hour in Trit. Given that Trit prices in nullsec tend to run 10%ish higher, his 40 million per hour is basically correct, if you do not account for human error in losing ore to over-cycling. Which happen far less when the rocks you mine make highsec ones look like pebbles.
|
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
186
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 16:23:20 -
[299] - Quote
Querns wrote:Sienna Vanjarc wrote:I understand and really like the intention of making sov-null more self-sufficient, and increasing income for nullsec miners (to fix risk/reward). That change is needed. But i have the fear this change will reduce income of highsec-miners, possibly even making it not worthwile. This is not needed by any means, as their income is very low already. So you might want to rework the highsec-ores too.
Besides, i want to suggest, that the ore-specialized mining-anomalys (not ice-belts and the ihub-sites), were scannable grav-sites again. This would especially be usefull for mining in lowsec and npc-null, where you don't have unlimited resources like sov 0.0 but the same kind of risk. Folks mined the hell out of highsec back when trit was under 3 isk a unit. They'll be fine.
I think there are two possible outcomes from these mining changes:
1) The nullsec community generally views miners in New Eden as some kind of Dalit sub-class and would rather not board a mining vessel. The existing ones who do still mine in null-sec will operate as they do now exporting high ends to high sec and enjoy increased profits from the higher prices. High sec will continue as it does now. This is the more likely outcome.
2) The null-sec community will take advantage of the changes and industry will flourish in null-sec. Prices of low end minerals on the market will collapse falling to values present a few years ago. A fair percentage of miners in high sec have either left New Eden or switched profession, to mission running for example, after the ruling on certain usage of ISBoxer type software. A potential 40% drop in revenue from mining high-sec rocks will result in even more miners moving to other professions and the mining career option becoming a peasants trade. This is the less likely outcome.
PS. Please note I fully support CCPs decision on ISBoxer type software use and would have liked to see ALL usage of these types of software made illegal under the EULA. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1600
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 16:23:22 -
[300] - Quote
Except that there will be no more veldspar in ore prospecting sites. :V
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
|
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
186
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 16:29:30 -
[301] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Bethan Le Troix wrote:Ncc 1709 wrote:my sheets show veldspar at 40m per hour scordite at 50m per hour
where as spodumain is also at 50m per hour, mercoxit is 50m per hour, dark ochre 50m per hour.
before the announcement, abc's were averaging 40m per hour.
this figures are baised on an exhumers 5 hulk with bonuses, no drones or implants.
I don't have any experience of revenue from null-sec mining so I can't comment on your workings for Spodumain, Mercoxit, & Dark Ochre. On the other hand if you actually want to sell your mined materials , even in compressed format which is optimal, you will not get 40 million ISK p/h from mining even Dense Veldspar let alone the standard Veldspar variant. Using an absolute maxed skilled Orca/Hulk combo but without a Michi fitted you are talking 25 million ISK p/h mining Veldspar and Scordite will bring in less than this. Throwing ****** statistics out like those I have quoted from your post above will not get you anywhere. Regarding insider trading I'm reminded of the famous quote from the main character in 'House of Cards'. A lot of stirring GSF forum posts regarding Megacyte & Zydrine price increases came before CCP Fozzies Fanfest announcement that, in all but name, GSF had convinced him to do the announced ore changes in null-sec. I'll leave it up to you to decide if this is the case or not. 1: Are your figures "paper figures" or yield in practice?. Because due to the huge nature of the rocks in nullsec, actual yield is far higher due to barely losing any ore to partial cycles. From a few minutes of EFT, I get 3100 (rounded down from 3139) m3 per minute on a Hulk with one MLU and rorqual boosts, using t2 Veldspar crystals. That's 186,000 m3 per hour of Veldspar if everything was perfect. Using mineral values pulled off of the Cerlestes table for today ( And before you ask, yes accounting for the new not perfect refining efficiency), Veldspar is worth 203 isk per m3 in minerals. Ehh.... 186,000 * 203 = 37.75 million per hour in Trit. Given that Trit prices in nullsec tend to run 10%ish higher, his 40 million per hour is basically correct, if you do not account for human error in losing ore to over-cycling. Which happen far less when the rocks you mine make highsec ones look like pebbles.
Ah. I was coming from a different angle and presumed he was talking about mining Veldspar & Scordite in high sec systems using a max skilled/linked Orca/Hulk combo minus the Michi implant. I didn't mention or mean using a Rorqual in null sec. I thought he was comparing mining revenue between high sec and null sec to try and make out more ISK is made in high sec.
And yes my figures come from yield in practice on other accounts. I don't mine in this dress.
|
Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1413
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 16:30:49 -
[302] - Quote
Querns wrote:Except that there will be no more veldspar in ore prospecting sites. :V
Unless my numbers are off, new Spodmium results in something like 80% of the Tritanium per m3, along with a decent chunk of Pyerite? RIP Trit, but I'm not too cut up about it.
Bethan Le Troix wrote:Regarding insider trading I'm reminded of the famous quote from the main character in 'House of Cards'. A lot of stirring GSF forum posts regarding Megacyte & Zydrine price increases came before CCP Fozzies Fanfest announcement that, in all but name, GSF had convinced him to do the announced ore changes in null-sec. I'll leave it up to you to decide if this is the case or not.
P.S: On the insider trading suggestion, anyone with a functioning frontal lobe knew it was coming. We currently have massive oversupply of high end minerals. As soon as CCP hinted at any sort of ore changes, anyone who bothered to think about it swiftly came to the conclusion that if the current situation is massive supply, and tiny demand....
The only possible direction for highends was up. That made investing in them very very safe, with huge potential payouts, and no chance of significant loss. If demand didn't rise, stick it back on market. If it does, cash out.
But still. I have stock in a tinfoil company (No ****, I actual do), so if you want to *Tinfoil*, go ahead. |
Durrr
Jita Fajitas
35
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 18:21:17 -
[303] - Quote
I still would like to see a reason, any reason, to mine ore in low sec. It's more dangerous than null with much less payoff. In fact the payoff is only marginally better than high sec, with a good deal more risk. |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
106
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 18:28:48 -
[304] - Quote
Durrr wrote:I still would like to see a reason, any reason, to mine ore in low sec. It's more dangerous than null with much less payoff. In fact the payoff is only marginally better than high sec, with a good deal more risk.
Yep.
Perhaps offset some of the Nocxium procurement by increasing its yield in LS ores, and lowering in NS ones?
Zydrine increase is good, but Nocx would be better as it is a mid-tier mineral.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Sodamn In-sane
Phorever People
4
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 18:43:30 -
[305] - Quote
you can poke your revamp,give us back our isboxer for nullsec miners,ban the use of it in pvp only
Fozzie
job change is good but you're still a muppet
|
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2798
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 20:12:40 -
[306] - Quote
Sodamn In-sane wrote:you can poke your revamp,give us back our isboxer for nullsec miners,ban the use of it in pvp only Because isboxer has zero effect on the source of the problem attempting to be fixed with this.
Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
|
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2299
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 20:58:51 -
[307] - Quote
Sodamn In-sane wrote:you can poke your revamp,give us back our isboxer for nullsec miners,ban the use of it in pvp only You seem to forget that even mining has pvp in it.
So it looks like it's still banned. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1126
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 22:04:00 -
[308] - Quote
moon mining should have its own structure not tied too POS/stations in anyway, more like POCO's really
Tech 3's need to be multi-role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists.
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 slots for droneboats
Nerf web strength, Make the blaster eagle worth using
|
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
Alekhine's Gun The Periphery
207
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 22:08:00 -
[309] - Quote
Durrr wrote:I still would like to see a reason, any reason, to mine ore in low sec. It's more dangerous than null with much less payoff. In fact the payoff is only marginally better than high sec, with a good deal more risk.
The small increase in profitability is quickly removed when you include ship losses and time spent avoiding said ship losses.
I predict lowsec mining would get a boost in popularity similiar to the faction warfare fix if mining suddenly became viable. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2751
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 22:52:29 -
[310] - Quote
Querns wrote:Simon Alfrir wrote: I would also ask CCP to investigate the possible insider trading of Zydrine and Megacyte prior to the announcement of these changes being made public. I believe that the there may have been large spikes in the purchases of both minerals before CCP Fozzie went onto Twitch with the initial announcement. Has this been looked into?
There's nothing to investigate. These changes were announced first at Fanfest. You are aware that anyone can watch the Fanfest stream, without going to Iceland, right?
Even if you couldn't, the announcement was made a public event so its not like privileged or confidential information somebody had access to and then profited from it.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2751
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 22:59:44 -
[311] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote: I Want to mine in highsec space, that is my chosen profession and game playing region. I in no way expect untold riches or widespread acclaim for doing so but I do expect my already modest income to be kept from going into the toilet.
This discussion is about mining, industrialists, and miners. Not about people that want to do FW, incursions, scamming and all the rest of that irrelevant stuff you are bringing up. If I wanted to do all that other stuff I would not have made a single post in this thread.
This is one of the things I love about this game. You get to see economic theory in action such as supply and demand, and in the case of the above comment, rent seeking. Awesome.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Eodp Ellecon
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
17
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 00:46:22 -
[312] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote: Increasing Zydrine and Megacyte consumption in manufacturing. This is a fairly simple change, but it will have some significant effects. As we said on the o7 show, we are doubling the Zydrine and Megacyte consumption of almost all blueprints in the game.
What about the reprocessing values on meta modules? Are you going to adjust those upwards, as well? If not, then T1 modules become even more expensive, relative to low metas - and thus, even less incentive to build/use T1 except as components in T2 module manufacturing. Note that low meta prices tend to be bounded by their reprocessing value, in the majority of cases where the NPC drops and market supply are high (and not being deliberately market manipulated). For most modules, the reprocessing value is already significantly lower than the T1 build cost, making those modules impractical to build, esp. since even the low metas tend to have better stats than T1. Module tiericide has completely failed to address this problem, thus far. This is because NPC's shouldn't drop complete components. They should drop "parts" which are then used in conjunction with T1 components and BPC's acquired from data sites to build meta modules. Then it's really easy to balance the cost of meta modules as you just tweak the supply of parts dropped from rats. The daft thing is, we already have all the items in game (more or less) to do this. There are mechanical parts, electrical parts (all those really low value items in relic/data sites) etc etc. The list is very long. This would fix data sites (as they're currently rubbish) and give a massive expansion to industry.
Gewd Lawd don't make T1 production a logistical charade like T2.
Yes, Data sites loot table still suck and having Jury Rigging or Racial Encryption skill books is prime example. But the number of people who do exploration would never ever keep up with demands. We're talking in this thread about the proportion and activity of mining to the point of trying to encourage it as a viable activity and many, many more people mine than Explore.
Yes module drop value improvement would be nice.
A) Give them mineral buff akin to the new T1 build requirements.
And/or
B) Make meta choices significant and varied, even slightly dramatically so.
While we're at it - one day it would be nice to have Rigs have better stats than modules since they are perma-installled. To keep it in context and ridiculous proposal would be to have T1 Rig as is, meta Rig with better stats (T1 rig + mineral) and all T2 rigs stats should exceed non-deadspace module by 10-15%.
But none of this is out of the realm since EVE-CCP has indicated they'd like players to be able to build Everything in EVE. So some modules (even multiples in combo) down the line are likely to be Faction build requirements. In which case most module drops are 'as is' at the time with a percentage might contain components for Faction builds.
|
Eodp Ellecon
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
17
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 01:07:51 -
[313] - Quote
Decaneos wrote:Firvain wrote:T3 miner sounds awesome? what will it have more mining power? So making it the best ship to mine and lowering all other ships mining potential coz more minerals coming in while demand stays the same means prices will drop.. You could make it super miner, or you could make dictor nullified cloaky, or combat barge! but not all at the same time ofc, you would have to make that choice as you do with t3 cruisers fitting. thats how i would see them anyways.
I was expressing frustration (due to location or time zone) at the need for Fleet Booster in mining ship choices because mining without one feels really dumb after you've seen the effects of a good booster. So for the person who isn't going to multibox a full fleet or sit in a busy system I was thinking of a mind-link type thing and the T3 was with Strat Cruiser ability to fit links. A deployable would be feasible alternative and easier to adjust.
The Tactical Destroyer model is tempting but you already do that currently by effectively choosing which Barge / Exhumer you field.
While I'm a roll of terrible, how about adding Jump Fatigue reduction bonuses to Barge / Exhumers same as the Industrials. Right now it is a limiting factor in harvesting resources in null systems without stations. |
Rick Witham
United Star Alliance UNITED STAR FEDERATION
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 02:22:15 -
[314] - Quote
Is it possible to introduce a new way to track the m3 mined so that the pilots in null sec can actually know what m3 has been mined in a system and how much more is needed for a certain level? |
Simon Alfrir
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 04:15:59 -
[315] - Quote
Querns wrote:Simon Alfrir wrote: Again, are you hurting that badly in Nullsec where this change is necessary? I don't mind a little pain if it helps balance things out but I don't think it's needed given all the things you guys already get that we can't use due to CCPs heavy hand. These changes seem far too large and are from my standpoint unnecessary. I don't expect it to add any additional players to Null given the lack of recruitment posts on the board for miners. I've been checking and it's fairly silent unless you want to go with a small outfit and have a big target on your back. Or should we pay up and become renters? That's not my play style at all.
CCP's goal is to reduce the reliance of nullsec on the almighty Jump Freighter, and its reliance on Jita. To do so, more self-sufficiency is required. Nullsec groups tend not to recruit miners because miners don't actively contribute to the defense of an empire. Furthermore, mining is not a particularly difficult thing to train; PvPers will typically train PvE alts or train PvE skills as a secondary objective on their main. Right now, it's also not necessary GÇö a single pilot with 10 JF characters can do the work of hundreds of miners by JFing in compressed ore. Additionally, dedicated industrialists tend to be the worst drama llamas known to eve online (second only to FCs.) Regarding "all the things you guys already get," you vastly underestimate the amount of work and will needed to keep an area of nullsec. You need military power to take and hold space. You need logistical power to deploy and maintain sov structures, and to fuel towers. You need a steady income stream to pay sov bills. (One particular upgrade costs 600m a month to keep online!) You need diplomatic power to maintain good standings with your neighbors and to put out brush fires between members. For all that, you get moderately nicer mining and ratting. If your playstyle is solo, more power to you, but you are playing a game in which cooperation is vastly rewarded. CCP will always reward cooperation over solo play due to its demonstrable effect on retention.
Thanks for the answers. I have no doubt your operational costs are higher. The point I am trying to make is why the changes if nothing is fundamentally broken?
This has the potential of negatively impacting hundreds of new players like myself who are training up skills while at the same time observing things and learning. That is why I'm a solo miner. I'm not into getting into PvP right now because my skills are so low it would not be much of a fight. Fun yes, but it's a waste of resources for me which I don't have. What game do the new players have if they are not the masochistic type and trying to build a strong future?
I'm here to find out the answers to my questions. From what I've read these changes are not necessary. The only reason for them is jump fatigue which is a big failure and hated by virtually all who inhabit Null. It's a carrot to keep you guys going while punishing other players. I thought this game was in a fairly stable position given the amount of time it's been going but changing things like this so radically shows I was wrong. This is not fine tuning the system. It's like trying to fix a watch with a hammer. I'll keep reading and trying to learn but what I am seeing is a lot of hands rubbing together ripe with greed. While I can't blame you, I don't share your excitement.
|
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
586
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 04:54:47 -
[316] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:As we said on the o7 show, we are doubling the Zydrine and Megacyte consumption of almost all blueprints in the game. "almost all" isn't the same as "all".
Are you going to pre-release a list of the BPs which will actually be changed (or not changed, whichever is the shorter list, I suppose) before the changes actually go into effect? Certain items, for which Megacyte and Zydrine actually do make up most of the manufacturing cost, will be more significantly affected than items for which the amount of Megacyte and Zydrine is an insignficant percentage. Players who manufacture those items probably would like to know for certain in advance if their cost is going to suddenly double.
A specific list of any changes to reprocessing values on metas would also be welcome, if such is planned. Many players *do* still use reprocessed NPC loot as a source for minerals. Remember that, in high-sec, Megacyte and Zydrine can only be "mined" from reprocessed modules. |
Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1418
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 04:58:05 -
[317] - Quote
Simon Alfrir wrote: Thanks for the answers. I have no doubt your operational costs are higher. The point I am trying to make is why the changes if nothing is fundamentally broken?
I think we can agree that upgraded anomalies should be something of value in sov nullsec.
Currently, their primary worth is in the high end minerals that they supply, which can then be transported to highsec for sale. Even with this though, the rocks are only marginally higher than highsec rocks in value.
This is because for every m3 of highend rock you mine, someone has to mine (demonstration number, no promise of accuracy) nine times as much veldspar in order to achieve the correct mix for manufacturing.
Consider the following (Bill Nye impression): If there is no importing of bulk lowend minerals to nullsec (once they nerf the JF), how valuable to local production is anomaly which only spawns highends?
Highend only anomalies are like diamond mines: What comes out of them is not very useful at the mine, but if you take it somewhere else, people give you enough money to pay for importing all the food and paying the workers, and maintaining the infrastructure.
If one day, food imports became impossible, the workers at the diamond mine suddenly to spend 90% of their time growing food/maintaining infrastructure and 10% of their time mining diamonds.
In our case, under the current anomalies and production values, nullsec miners would spend 10% of the time mining highends, and 90% of their time stripping belts for Veld and Scordite.
So how useful is a series of upgraded respawning anomalies where all the ore in it has a near infinite supply, barely any demand, and is easier to harvest than Veldspar and thus actually less valuable than Veldspar?
If you answered "Not much", you would be correct.
TLDR: It's not broken now, but if CCP were to nerf JF's (which they have outright said they will do), it would be completely broken. This change is one of the prerequisites to them nerfing the JF. |
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
227
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 05:38:27 -
[318] - Quote
Querns wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote:CCP you should compensate highsec ore so our real income doesn't drop Hi, highsec incursions called. This thread is about miners, if I wanted to do something else I would. Btw, it is my firm belief that both incursions and FW need a serious ISK / hr nerf. When significant numbers of people from wormholes, low and null come to high to make their ISK there is a serious problem.
Highsec ISK should always validly be in a place such that the term meaningful but moderate applies. Mining currently barely justifies this classification hence my defense of highsec mining income.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
|
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
227
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 05:50:29 -
[319] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote: I Want to mine in highsec space, that is my chosen profession and game playing region. I in no way expect untold riches or widespread acclaim for doing so but I do expect my already modest income to be kept from going into the toilet.
This discussion is about mining, industrialists, and miners. Not about people that want to do FW, incursions, scamming and all the rest of that irrelevant stuff you are bringing up. If I wanted to do all that other stuff I would not have made a single post in this thread. And you arrived at the conclusion that what you do, unlike every other activity in the game, was a protected activity where CCP was not allowed to make changes that could negative impact your income.... Why again? I'm honestly curious. Your chosen profession in game is the most reactive portion of the economy in terms of supply and demand, yet you believe that you should be exempt from changes in supply and demand if they would negatively effect you. Before Nullsec started churning out supercaps by the hundreds, Tritanium hovered at 3.5 ish isk per unit, and Pyerite at 7. As of a week or two ago, Trit was at almost 6, and Pyerite at 13. You might not like it, but the fact is that you have been living fat off of an unnatural level of demand for Trit for years. Unnatural in that sooner or later, CCP was going to do something to stop it, and mineral prices would sink back towards pre-demand levels. So if your income drops by 1/3, it's not that CCP has a mad on for you, it's simply that the changes to nullsec canceled your food stamps, and you actually have to rely on more local market demand to drive demand. I never said I was entitled to anything. Is not your self righteous crowd always moaning on and on like two year olds about how highsec players should stand up for themselves? My repeated posts in this forum is just that. Fighting for how I play the game and where I choose to play it.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
|
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
227
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 06:30:14 -
[320] - Quote
Querns wrote:Simon Alfrir wrote: Again, are you hurting that badly in Nullsec where this change is necessary? I don't mind a little pain if it helps balance things out but I don't think it's needed given all the things you guys already get that we can't use due to CCPs heavy hand. These changes seem far too large and are from my standpoint unnecessary. I don't expect it to add any additional players to Null given the lack of recruitment posts on the board for miners. I've been checking and it's fairly silent unless you want to go with a small outfit and have a big target on your back. Or should we pay up and become renters? That's not my play style at all.
CCP's goal is to reduce the reliance of nullsec on the almighty Jump Freighter, and its reliance on Jita. To do so, more self-sufficiency is required. Nullsec groups tend not to recruit miners because miners don't actively contribute to the defense of an empire. Furthermore, mining is not a particularly difficult thing to train; PvPers will typically train PvE alts or train PvE skills as a secondary objective on their main. Right now, it's also not necessary GÇö a single pilot with 10 JF characters can do the work of hundreds of miners by JFing in compressed ore. Additionally, dedicated industrialists tend to be the worst drama llamas known to eve online (second only to FCs.) Regarding "all the things you guys already get," you vastly underestimate the amount of work and will needed to keep an area of nullsec. You need military power to take and hold space. You need logistical power to deploy and maintain sov structures, and to fuel towers. You need a steady income stream to pay sov bills. (One particular upgrade costs 600m a month to keep online!) You need diplomatic power to maintain good standings with your neighbors and to put out brush fires between members. For all that, you get moderately nicer mining and ratting. If your playstyle is solo, more power to you, but you are playing a game in which cooperation is vastly rewarded. CCP will always reward cooperation over solo play due to its demonstrable effect on retention.
We in nullsec despite having ludicrous amounts of ISK will trump on about or need for even more ridiculous amounts ISK because CCP buys this load of crap so why not keep on using it.
Oh, almost forgot about the miners are recruited because they don't contribute to defense and industrials are whiny. What you meant was you cannot stop your impulsive need to shoot defenseless ships and are incompetent at running a corporation. Btw, those ships you are defending your "space-farm" could be made by the industrials you cannot competently manage and the miners you refuse to recruit.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
|
|
Theo Sotken
Mother Knows Best Corporation
35
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 06:46:42 -
[321] - Quote
Querns wrote:I found your problem -- trying to mine exact ratios of minerals to build things is probably one of the worst economic bargains in Eve. You are deliberately wasting your own time just to make the numbers line up. Instead, mine the most lucrative thing you can, then sell your excess for cash, and use the cash to buy the minerals you lack. Freight is cheap and syndicate is very close to empire shipping lanes.
Remember, money can be traded for goods and services.
Rather than do that why not just get CCP to change the proportions of the minerals within the ores? Or you could even get them to change the mineral content for the blueprints?
Eve use to be a sandbox. Nowadays it seems to be going down the push button for candy route.
|
Spugg Galdon
Nisroc Angels
660
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 07:27:15 -
[322] - Quote
Eodp Ellecon wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:
This is because NPC's shouldn't drop complete components. They should drop "parts" which are then used in conjunction with T1 components and BPC's acquired from data sites to build meta modules. Then it's really easy to balance the cost of meta modules as you just tweak the supply of parts dropped from rats. The daft thing is, we already have all the items in game (more or less) to do this. There are mechanical parts, electrical parts (all those really low value items in relic/data sites) etc etc. The list is very long.
This would fix data sites (as they're currently rubbish) and give a massive expansion to industry.
Gewd Lawd don't make T1 production a logistical charade like T2. Yes, Data sites loot table still suck and having Jury Rigging or Racial Encryption skill books is prime example. But the number of people who do exploration would never ever keep up with demands. We're talking in this thread about the proportion and activity of mining to the point of trying to encourage it as a viable activity and many, many more people mine than Explore. Yes module drop value improvement would be nice. A) Give them mineral buff akin to the new T1 build requirements. And/or B) Make meta choices significant and varied, even slightly dramatically so. While we're at it - one day it would be nice to have Rigs have better stats than modules since they are perma-installled. To keep it in context and ridiculous proposal would be to have T1 Rig as is, meta Rig with better stats (T1 rig + mineral) and all T2 rigs stats should exceed non-deadspace module by 10-15%. But none of this is out of the realm since EVE-CCP has indicated they'd like players to be able to build Everything in EVE. So some modules (even multiples in combo) down the line are likely to be Faction build requirements. In which case most module drops are 'as is' at the time with a percentage might contain components for Faction builds.
This wouldn't create a logistical nightmare for T1 meta production. It would actually solve the stupid supply and demand balance we have now. In my proposal, not rats would drop "parts" equal to the amount required to build the meta module they would have dropped. These parts would be used in combination of a T1 module plus BPC gained from a data site to build the meta module desired. As the meta modules would share "common" parts what you build would be almost entirely your choice provided you have the BPC. Different sized Meta modules would all be built from the same parts pool and just require more (similar to current T1 production with minerals).
This would allow the value of meta modules to be controlled easily as it would simply be T1 module + parts + BPC = meta module
The supply of parts would be the same as the current supply of meta modules (harvested from looting wrecks).
Would this not give us a real way to produce meta modules, buff data sites to be damn right useful, and buff industry as a whole? The BPC's of meta modules would be high run copies to prevent bottle necks.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1097
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 08:50:41 -
[323] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:
This wouldn't create a logistical nightmare for T1 meta production. It would actually solve the stupid supply and demand balance we have now. In my proposal, not rats would drop "parts" equal to the amount required to build the meta module they would have dropped. These parts would be used in combination of a T1 module plus BPC gained from a data site to build the meta module desired. As the meta modules would share "common" parts what you build would be almost entirely your choice provided you have the BPC. Different sized Meta modules would all be built from the same parts pool and just require more (similar to current T1 production with minerals).
This would allow the value of meta modules to be controlled easily as it would simply be T1 module + parts + BPC = meta module
The supply of parts would be the same as the current supply of meta modules (harvested from looting wrecks).
Would this not give us a real way to produce meta modules, buff data sites to be damn right useful, and buff industry as a whole? The BPC's of meta modules would be high run copies to prevent bottle necks.
I've proposed the same thing before but from a buffing explo and industry direction. If people still want to refine something let them grind up the parts instead. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1601
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 12:23:00 -
[324] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
We in nullsec despite having ludicrous amounts of ISK will trump on about or need for even more ridiculous amounts ISK because CCP buys this load of crap so why not keep on using it.
Oh, almost forgot about the miners aren't recruited because they don't contribute to defense and industrials are whiny comment.
What you meant was you cannot stop your impulsive need to shoot defenseless industrial ships and are incompetent at running a corporation.
Btw, those ships you are using to defend your "space-farm" could be made by the industrials you cannot competently manage and the miners you refuse to recruit.
You're pretty uninformed about the nature of nullsec isk making. Mining is what we call "bottom-up isk," which means that line members keep the bulk of the isk made and only a small amount is reaped by the alliance through taxation. This isk is mostly just to offset the 80b isk each it costs to raise up nullsec refineries and manufacturing outposts.
You're also wrong about recruiting industrialists and miners. There's no need to recruit individuals who only do industry or mining because PVPers have alts that can do the job just as well. A dedicated industry main offers zero advantage over a PVPer's alt. The usufruct of our space is reserved only to assist PVPers in making money so they can continue to contribute militarily.
Hell GÇö I am a nullsec industrialist on my alts. I make fuel blocks with local materials and take part in the T2 production chain. However, unlike a dedicated industrialist, I also have a supercarrier which is currently deployed to our warfront, prosecuting and bringing to heel the enemies of the state. To my alliance, I am at once equally effective as a dedicated industrial character and significantly more useful for my military prowess.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Eodp Ellecon
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
17
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 17:51:49 -
[325] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote :
"This wouldn't create a logistical nightmare for T1 meta production. It would actually solve the stupid supply and demand balance we have now.
In my proposal, not rats would drop "parts" equal to the amount required to build the meta module they would have dropped. These parts would be used in combination of a T1 module plus BPC gained from a data site to build the meta module desired. As the meta modules would share "common" parts what you build would be almost entirely your choice provided you have the BPC.
Different sized Meta modules would all be built from the same parts pool and just require more (similar to current T1 production with minerals).
This would allow the value of meta modules to be controlled easily as it would simply be T1 module + parts + BPC = meta module
The supply of parts would be the same as the current supply of meta modules (harvested from looting wrecks).
Would this not give us a real way to produce meta modules, buff data sites to be damn right useful, and buff industry as a whole? The BPC's of meta modules would be high run copies to prevent bottle necks."
First, this part of the discussion spun off the fact someone asked if existing modules were going to get a proportionate buff in mineral content as the new specs about to occur - a very valid question.
Second, I think using the terms 'meta module' here in context with T1 causes confusion. With out meaningful development - significant variation of attributes - of the full meta module spread for all modules we put the cart before the horse.
If you are ONLY referring to Faction, Deadspace and Officer modules - I think this is somewhat an eventuality that Exploration and Escalations will be tied to loot drops. If you are talking about anything below T2 then it's just adding complexity to production for the sake of buffing Exploration or mission loot.
While the ore composition rebalance whereby supposed Rare Ores output values had crashed below value of the most common ores in space, even Veldspar - shows a game supply side problem. The module value was an intentional nerf by EVE-CCP by reducing the Scrap Metal skill in half.
It is compounded by peoples disinterest or knowledge as to potential value to modules so they dump them on market creating arbitrage opportunities for Trade. This is not a game supply side problem. It's a problem of interest and time value. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1098
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 18:00:22 -
[326] - Quote
Querns wrote: Reading between the lines:
We don't care about dedicated miners and industrialists We view it as a necessary evil We just do what we need to in support of the alliance and couldn't care less otherwise
By this thinking they should have buffed industryin hisec instead where people would actually appreciate the changes! |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2305
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 18:24:57 -
[327] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Querns wrote: Reading between the lines:
We don't care about dedicated miners and industrialists We view it as a necessary evil We just do what we need to in support of the alliance and couldn't care less otherwise
By this thinking they should have buffed industryin hisec instead where people would actually appreciate the changes! I'm not sure what lines you're reading between there. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1601
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 19:48:56 -
[328] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Querns wrote: Reading between the lines:
We don't care about dedicated miners and industrialists We view it as a necessary evil We just do what we need to in support of the alliance and couldn't care less otherwise
By this thinking they should have buffed industryin hisec instead where people would actually appreciate the changes! Nah. We love industry. We wouldn't have railroaded as much isk into Deklein as we did if we thought industry was bad. It's just that dedicated industrialists add nothing. They don't have some magical, heretofore unobtainable skill amount because anyone can train industrial skills on the alts necessary to have to play this game. They also don't have any secret wisdom to the process because manufacturing is so easy, mechanically speaking. (Thank you Crius!)
Also, what is wrong with wanting to support our alliance? The whole idea of having a player group is to band together for mutual defense and financial gain.
Recruiting dedicated industrialists is basically saying "hey, let's invite a bunch of people whose only ability is to make themselves money, who will flee at the first sign of adversity!"
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
394
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 20:15:10 -
[329] - Quote
Rick Witham wrote:Is it possible to introduce a new way to track the m3 mined so that the pilots in null sec can actually know what m3 has been mined in a system and how much more is needed for a certain level?
This sounds like a suggestion for the appropriate Structure thread. Maybe some kind of sensor array mounted on a Mining Platform. |
GetSirrus
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
92
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 20:57:39 -
[330] - Quote
Querns wrote:You're also wrong about recruiting industrialists and miners. There's no need to recruit individuals who only do industry or mining because PVPers have alts that can do the job just as well.
Querns wrote:It's just that dedicated industrialists add nothing.
Querns wrote:Nullsec groups tend not to recruit miners because miners don't actively contribute to the defense of an empire.
Currently null has plenty of ore in belts. The lack of mineral supply is a problem they have created for themselves. So why Fozzie, are you giving them what amounts to welfare to a group that are already outrageously wealthy?
How does this mesh with your sov requirement that mining is integral to defense index? Will that also change to fit the players instead of the players needing to adapt? |
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1601
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 21:13:26 -
[331] - Quote
GetSirrus wrote:Querns wrote:You're also wrong about recruiting industrialists and miners. There's no need to recruit individuals who only do industry or mining because PVPers have alts that can do the job just as well. Querns wrote:It's just that dedicated industrialists add nothing. Querns wrote:Nullsec groups tend not to recruit miners because miners don't actively contribute to the defense of an empire. Currently null has plenty of ore in belts. The lack of mineral supply is a problem they have created for themselves. So why Fozzie, are you giving them what amounts to welfare to a group that are already outrageously wealthy? How does this mesh with your sov requirement that mining is integral to defense index? Will that also change to fit the players instead of the players needing to adapt? There's actually almost no ore at all in nullsec belts. I understand that it seems like a lot compared to highsec belts, but the amounts truly are insignificant. Highsec manages throughput by having the entirety of empire space available to exploit, where a given nullsec alliance has only one region or less (perhaps even a single system!) to exploit.
Additionally, you're confused about the respawn mechanics of static belts. Currently, if you waddle out into a nullsec system and scan a random belt, you'll observe it at its full state, since no one typically mines static belts. If these belts were mined out completely, it'd take several days for the static belt to regenerate to that amount. This means that the actual sustained amount of ore is much lower, on the order of 1/2 to 1/3rd of what you'd observe.
There is barely enough ore in a given nullsec system's static belts to maintain a Level 1 Industrial index, and even that is contingent on a minimum number of static belts. For Industrial Index to be relevant to defense, ore prospecting sites, spawned by the infrastructure hub, have to exist.
The point of ore prospecting sites is to promote density in nullsec. Allowing more players to make a living in a smaller amount of space lets more people enjoy nullsec, and provides more food for PVPers to feast upon. It's win/win.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Black Romero
Aviation Professionals for EVE Providence Initiative
12
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 21:14:43 -
[332] - Quote
If I might make a suggestion that I believe applies here in the discussion of nullsec / WH ores and mining in general:
What about the first T3 module(s)?
Specifically a T3 mining laser and a T3 Strip Miner
The whole theme behind T3 is that it can change...why not a T3 mining laser that only requires one type of T3 crystal or no crystal at all and can change to mine all ores that the user has the Ore skill to level 5?
The bonuses from said module would be not having to carry a ton of different crystals. Maybe increased output (say 1-5%) and the obvious flexibility.
Not to mention I think everyone agrees, that there should always be at least a decent reason to train to a skill to level 5. Ore skills to 5 have never made much sense and even with the recent refining changes, still don't given the 14 day training time per Ore.
With this suggested module, it would give a really good reason to train to level 5. Flexibility, speed, and cargo space and cost savings over time after initial construction (which would of course, require additional T3 parts)
OR
Like many have suggested here (and I agree with strongly) get rid of the dense variations of the ores
and make a T3 mining laser that mines a new denser type of ore called "XYZ-ite" . This denser ore would only be found in null-sec and WH's and would require a T3 miner to get. The mineral mix that would be yielded from said ore would have all the minerals but in the proportions null-sec users use most (from CCP Fozzies numbers). This composition could, ofc, be modified over time. But suffice of to say, you get something that drives people into nullsec, is easy to export, great to refine, and helps WHolers by making mining anoms actually worth the risk because you get in and out quicker and with a reward EQUAL to the risk since mining anoms are no longer scanned down and very risky.
The lore behind the laser would be that WHole mining drove its development and previously thought useless rocks are now worth something because we have the equipment to do it with.
Anyways - my two cents.
Flame on |
Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1421
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 21:24:50 -
[333] - Quote
GetSirrus wrote:Querns wrote:You're also wrong about recruiting industrialists and miners. There's no need to recruit individuals who only do industry or mining because PVPers have alts that can do the job just as well. Querns wrote:It's just that dedicated industrialists add nothing. Querns wrote:Nullsec groups tend not to recruit miners because miners don't actively contribute to the defense of an empire. Currently null has plenty of ore in belts. The lack of mineral supply is a problem they have created for themselves. So why Fozzie, are you giving them what amounts to welfare to a group that are already outrageously wealthy? How does this mesh with your sov requirement that mining is integral to defense index? Will that also change to fit the players instead of the players needing to adapt? We don't have a mineral supply problem. At this time, there's no issue getting as huge of a supply of minerals as we desire to our nullsec bases.
The "Outrageously wealthy" part is a bit silly, since most all of the line members I know tend to be eternally broke. We make money in order to lose it PvPing in the defense of our space, the offense of another space, or just plain cause we are bored.
We take moons so we can spend the result on maintaining our space. You know how high the cost gets when you have dozens of towers, dozens of systems, upgrades, stations, JB's, Jammers, etc?
A system with a JB POS costs over a bil a month just in sov fee's + the fuel for the one tower. Even a no station, no upgrades system cost 180 mil a month in upkeep. A mid sized alliance with say a well developed 30 system region is probably paying at least 15-20 Billion a month in sov fee's, and then another 40 or so in fuel costs to keep the jump bridges, Cyno beacons, Jammers, and R32/R64 towers in fuel blocks.
Most or all the r64 income disappears directly back into infrastructure maintenance, depending on infrastructure level and region r64 richness. Not to mention the huge quantity of manhours it takes to collect, process, ship, and sell the processed moongoo.
And then you have hundreds or thousands of manhours a month in people defending their space by chasing down and killing neutrals, cleaning out enemy assets nearby, shipping in supplies for the line members, running alliance services like TS, forums, auth tools, etc, etc. A single 2 hour bashing fleet with 100 people is 200 manhours right there. Even at pathetic 25 mil an hour highsec miner wages, that's roughly 5 bil isk in player time expended.
Sometimes someone stronger comes to push your **** in, and you lose everything you can't evac in a hurry, along with the tens of billions of isk of infrastructure and thousands of manhours it took to establish it and for people to get their stuff out to null to make isk with.
And all of this happens before anyone gets to make a single isk ratting or mining.
So when I hear someone complaining about how it's not fair that a ratter in nullsec can make 80 mil an hour solo while a poor empire miner can only make 25-30, and bitterly complaining every time nullsec gets so much as a minor QoL buff, the response is basically:
Oh **** off. |
Albert Spear
Non scholae sed vitae
57
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 22:07:25 -
[334] - Quote
Quote:Please understand that. It has been distorting the mineral supply in the game for years. Null miners DO NOT get to choose what ore they mine, they are spoon fed what to mine by game mechanics.
Suggestion: Prospecting arrays are scriptable. The script tends to cause some types of ore to show up more often that others. Don't make it perfect, but something that allows the players to nudge the ores toward what they need.
This is a ground breaking idea. If the array's were scriptable then it would make mining in Nul a lot more interesting.
Even it the scripts could cause an increase in 1 type of ore and a decrease in another (paired scripts required) it would make a huge difference. |
Simon Alfrir
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2015.04.19 02:21:55 -
[335] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:GetSirrus wrote:Querns wrote:You're also wrong about recruiting industrialists and miners. There's no need to recruit individuals who only do industry or mining because PVPers have alts that can do the job just as well. Querns wrote:It's just that dedicated industrialists add nothing. Querns wrote:Nullsec groups tend not to recruit miners because miners don't actively contribute to the defense of an empire. Currently null has plenty of ore in belts. The lack of mineral supply is a problem they have created for themselves. So why Fozzie, are you giving them what amounts to welfare to a group that are already outrageously wealthy? How does this mesh with your sov requirement that mining is integral to defense index? Will that also change to fit the players instead of the players needing to adapt? We don't have a mineral supply problem. At this time, there's no issue getting as huge of a supply of minerals as we desire to our nullsec bases. The "Outrageously wealthy" part is a bit silly, since most all of the line members I know tend to be eternally broke. We make money in order to lose it PvPing in the defense of our space, the offense of another space, or just plain cause we are bored. We take moons so we can spend the result on maintaining our space. You know how high the cost gets when you have dozens of towers, dozens of systems, upgrades, stations, JB's, Jammers, etc? A system with a JB POS costs over a bil a month just in sov fee's + the fuel for the one tower. Even a no station, no upgrades system cost 180 mil a month in upkeep. A mid sized alliance with say a well developed 30 system region is probably paying at least 15-20 Billion a month in sov fee's, and then another 40 or so in fuel costs to keep the jump bridges, Cyno beacons, Jammers, and R32/R64 towers in fuel blocks. Most or all the r64 income disappears directly back into infrastructure maintenance, depending on infrastructure level and region r64 richness. Not to mention the huge quantity of manhours it takes to collect, process, ship, and sell the processed moongoo. And then you have the thousands of manhours a month in people defending their space by chasing down and killing neutrals, cleaning out enemy assets nearby, shipping in supplies for the line members, running alliance services like TS, forums, auth tools, etc, etc. A single 2 hour bashing fleet with 100 people is 200 manhours right there. Even at pathetic 25 mil an hour highsec miner wages, that's roughly 5 bil isk in player time expended. Sometimes someone stronger comes to push your **** in, and you lose everything you can't evac in a hurry, along with the tens of billions of isk of infrastructure and thousands of manhours it took to establish it and for people to get their stuff out to null to make isk with. And all of this happens before anyone gets to make a single isk ratting or mining.So when I hear someone complaining about how it's not fair that a ratter in nullsec can make 80 mil an hour solo while a poor empire miner can only make 25-30 half afk, and bitterly complaining every time nullsec gets so much as a minor QoL buff, the response is basically:
Oh **** off.
There is no way we make 25-30 an hour solo mining ore in Empire space. I still have some room for improvement but it will not double my income. Ice belts are heavily populated by multi-boxers and are prone to gank attacks. Not too much fun there.
Now the people who actually pay for their subscriptions will be helping you to PLEX your accounts each month while earning less themselves. It just doesn't really add up to me. There is an interconnected economy in place which is working.
BTW, what exactly is the purpose of these threads from the DEV team when they never comment and unlikely even absorb what the players are saying? |
Malkiel Ivesse
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.19 04:07:56 -
[336] - Quote
TL;DR version: "You know nothing, Jon Snow."
For those who have never lived in nullsec ratting with a 14 day old alt account in null = 30 mil/hour, solo with no fleet bonuses in a ship costing under 100 mil total.
mining can't touch that solo, if for no other reason than time spent warping off to grab a combat ship to re clear the battleship rats. mining could touch that in a group, until you realize that the above numbers are from a completely new character. An actually skilled nullsec ratter can easily earn 40M/hour or more (I've met a few earning 120-160 mil/hour personally)
The problem is that it is more economically feasible to kill rats, buy ore in hisec, have someone ship it out, and build my product than it is for me to mine locally to build my product.
I used to do mining. I honestly find mining, somehow, less likely to make me fall asleep than ratting. That being said, I rat for twice the isk/hour that jetcan mining makes me.
Until a nullsec ore miner without buffs can compete with a ratter for income, ore mining in null will remain strictly the activity of those unwilling or unable to rat. The most valuable ore last time I checked clocked in at 320 isk/m3, and was a lowsec ore (meaning we mined that in preference over null ores, in null) You all know what your lasers can pull and how long your cycles are. figure out your m3 per hour, multiply by 320 and you know what you'd make mining in null right now. the best hisec ore clocked in at 290 isk/m3, so basically null made 10% more than hisec. Then remember that our rats are far more dangerous than the occasional CODE. agent (not a challenge gents) and realize the benefits of a covetor or hulk are lost by having to warp away to get a combat ship every time the rats appear, meaning a procurer/skiff/mackinaw that can beat the rats becomes the most efficient way to solo mine in null due to reduced travel time.
To those saying "what about mining as a group activity in null?" You get 10+ nullsec pilots together and this thing happens called a "roam" where we go hunting the other team's miners. Basically the moment a decent sized force gathers, pvp happens and that's why I more consider how effective a solo miner is. A gentleman from Goons (Querns) offered his own answers as to why group mining in null isn't really a "thing" earlier in this thread, and it is every bit as valid.
Regarding desires to "increase the values of nullsec ores" See the above and ask yourself: how far would it have to increase the demand of ores to make them viable against ratting?
Probably to the point of them generating the bottlenecks in hisec industry. That would be bad for the game.
The real problem with mining is accessibility. Since everyone can mine, huge numbers of people do, vastly increasing supply. most cost in T2 production is from moongoo, not minerals. This means that so long as the large pvp fleets are using T2 ships... they're only using 10 mil worth of minerals on a 150 mil ship. That bottlenecks demand.
The only things in null where vast amounts of minerals are lost is capital ships. For mining to become less of a beggar's profession, more capital ships need to die. Along those lines - We all better hope Fozziesov kills caps.
~ The author is probably mining without a permit or joining with other malcontents plotting against The Imperium deep in lawless space. either that or a big fat carebear. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
637
|
Posted - 2015.04.19 04:54:25 -
[337] - Quote
GetSirrus wrote:Currently null has plenty of ore in belts. The lack of mineral supply is a problem they have created for themselves. So why Fozzie, are you giving them what amounts to welfare to a group that are already outrageously wealthy?
How does this mesh with your sov requirement that mining is integral to defense index? Will that also change to fit the players instead of the players needing to adapt?
Nah. CCP Fozzie was a goon. The rest I will leave for your imagination to fill..
Anyhow, sad to see that some people don't even get the reasons for being in null in the first place.
Nullsec residents don't need isk, they can create tons of it but that only means there is more of it in the game instead of being removed.
Money is a collection of printed paper and pressed metal disks and the people who collect the most(estest) printed papersheets and pressed metal disks are gooder(er) people, mkay?
Again, nobody in nullsec needs isk only people and a little time.
The poor market and the the poor economy are irrelevant when ship A shoots ship B. So EVE seems to have an identity crises I take it?
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
|
Lim Yoona
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.19 04:54:53 -
[338] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:These changes are intended to make Nullsec more self sufficient then it is currently
This is never gonna happen as long as afk cloaking is a thing. Any system with a hint of industry upgrade/index instantly draws afk cloakers and blops droppers. How about a covert cyno jammer? |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2058
|
Posted - 2015.04.19 09:22:18 -
[339] - Quote
Lim Yoona wrote: This is never gonna happen as long as afk cloaking is a thing. Any system with a hint of industry upgrade/index instantly draws afk cloakers and blops droppers. How about a covert cyno jammer?
I believe you wish to read the Gates & Observatories thread and watch the fanfest presentation. |
Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1337
|
Posted - 2015.04.19 10:37:46 -
[340] - Quote
Lim Yoona wrote:This is never gonna happen as long as afk cloaking is a thing. Any system with a hint of industry upgrade/index instantly draws afk cloakers and blops droppers. How about a covert cyno jammer? Have a response fleet ready when people mine.
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
|
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1603
|
Posted - 2015.04.19 11:49:51 -
[341] - Quote
elitatwo wrote: Nah. CCP Fozzie was a goon. The rest I will leave for your imagination to fill..
Actually, he was from PL. All the devs who were goons are no longer with the company.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Lemming Alpha1dash1
Lemmings Online Eve Radio Alliance
32
|
Posted - 2015.04.19 12:19:28 -
[342] - Quote
I do not like mining
#bringbackgunmining
hint: https://zkillboard.com/group/463/losses/
Can you tell me how the ore composition (preferably Bistot) is tied into system security level
Information is Ammunition,
http://eve-radio.com/
War does not tolerate Ambiguities.
http://www.twitch.tv/everadiolive
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1603
|
Posted - 2015.04.19 12:33:55 -
[343] - Quote
Lemming Alpha1dash1 wrote: Check dotlan.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
637
|
Posted - 2015.04.19 13:05:01 -
[344] - Quote
Querns wrote:elitatwo wrote: Nah. CCP Fozzie was a goon. The rest I will leave for your imagination to fill..
Actually, he was from PL. All the devs who were goons are no longer with the company.
...details..
Point being blobb-entity 2. And blobb requires the least amount of effort or intelligence.
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1603
|
Posted - 2015.04.19 13:28:13 -
[345] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Querns wrote:elitatwo wrote: Nah. CCP Fozzie was a goon. The rest I will leave for your imagination to fill..
Actually, he was from PL. All the devs who were goons are no longer with the company. ...details.. Point being blobb-entity 2. And blobb requires the least amount of effort or intelligence. So what you are saying is that intelligence is a poor indicator of performance at Eve: Online?
Because, shoot, that seems like an easy trade. Why be intelligent when you can be the best?
... wait, shit. My mother told me I was intelligent when I was a child. Does this mean I'm bad at Eve: Online?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
637
|
Posted - 2015.04.19 15:04:39 -
[346] - Quote
elitatwo wrote: And blobb requires the least amount of effort or intelligence.
Is an observation over a long period of time.
Querns wrote:So what you are saying is that intelligence is a poor indicator of performance at Eve: Online?
Again, I am making an observation.
Querns wrote:Because, shoot, that seems like an easy trade. Why be intelligent when you can be the best?
At?
Querns wrote:... wait, shit. My mother told me I was intelligent when I was a child. Does this mean I'm bad at Eve: Online?
Telling 723475+ƒ138417495767346378246926+ƒ48184425624874 to press fone is not pvp.
But what has that to do with minerals in drama-sec?
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1603
|
Posted - 2015.04.19 20:27:21 -
[347] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Querns wrote:So what you are saying is that intelligence is a poor indicator of performance at Eve: Online? Again, I am making an observation. Sounds like an opinion to me.
elitatwo wrote:Querns wrote:Because, shoot, that seems like an easy trade. Why be intelligent when you can be the best? At? The game.
elitatwo wrote: But what has that to do with minerals in drama-sec?
You're the one that brought up. I was perfectly content to discuss this topic without bringing up alliance affiliation; don't blame me when you and others lower the level of discussion in this manner.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1429
|
Posted - 2015.04.19 20:34:50 -
[348] - Quote
elitatwo wrote: *Incoherent angry cat noises*
Querns wrote:*repeated predictably failing attempts to use rationality against the irrational, while slowly sinking towards his level*
Don't make me get out the squirt bottle. Can we at least try and steer this conversation back to flinging **** at each other based on the actual topic?
I won't even bother to hold out hope for any sort of civil discussion on the topic. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1603
|
Posted - 2015.04.19 20:51:16 -
[349] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:elitatwo wrote: *Incoherent angry cat noises* Querns wrote:*repeated predictably failing attempts to use rationality against the irrational, while slowly sinking towards his level* Don't make me get out the squirt bottle. Can we at least try and steer this conversation back to flinging **** at each other based on the actual topic? I won't even bother to hold out hope for any sort of civil discussion on the topic. Sinking? We've been there for several pages now. People can't help but tinfoil it up, and I can't help but to play around in said tinfoil.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1603
|
Posted - 2015.04.19 20:54:12 -
[350] - Quote
It's like, woah, I like to think I'm immune to the stuff. Oh yeah.
But, it's closer to the truth, to say that I can't get enough.
Eventually, I'll have to face it.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
|
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
371
|
Posted - 2015.04.19 20:59:54 -
[351] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Lim Yoona wrote: This is never gonna happen as long as afk cloaking is a thing. Any system with a hint of industry upgrade/index instantly draws afk cloakers and blops droppers. How about a covert cyno jammer?
I believe you wish to read the Gates & Observatories thread and watch the fanfest presentation.
Indeed.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2314
|
Posted - 2015.04.19 21:37:49 -
[352] - Quote
You know it's a slow day when the mineral composition bread turns into a blob or not to blob debate/turdflinging |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
586
|
Posted - 2015.04.19 22:31:55 -
[353] - Quote
Actually, I think there is already sufficient ore in null sec for self-sufficiency. Has been for several years now. What there is NOT in null sec, is any good reason to spend the time/effort to mine it all. Plenty of players in null sec, just not many miners - I've rarely seen an empty belt in null sec, while they are a common sight in high sec. As others have stated, a null sec player can make much more ISK/hr doing many other things, and with less risk.
So, the only real reason why high sec produces more trit and other low-end minerals is because there are simply more players mining in high sec - the reward/risk payoff is comparable to, or better than, other high sec activities. Doesn't really matter how you tweak the high:null ore/mineral ratios, you'll still find players mining all day in high sec.
Perhaps, then, to get more mining done in null sec, what really needs to happen is for all other null sec sources of ISK farming to be nerfed, across the board, until they have a comparable or lower ISK/hr payoff than null sec mining. This includes reducing the rewards on belt ratting, mission running, exploration, etc.
Sure, it would be unpopular, at first, and the tears would flow, along with the screams (nothing new about that, but, hey, adapt or go play WoW, right?). But, I don't think null sec self-sufficiency is ever going to be reached by just continuing to tweak the minerals in and processing of null sec ore, or by trying to link sov in some way to mining. Self-sufficiency requires more players to mine. More players mining in null sec will only happen if there isn't anything easier and more profitable for them to do to farm ISK. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1603
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 01:03:26 -
[354] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Actually, I think there is already sufficient ore in null sec for self-sufficiency. Has been for several years now. What there is NOT in null sec, is any good reason to spend the time/effort to mine it all. Plenty of players in null sec, just not many miners - I've rarely seen an empty belt in null sec, while they are a common sight in high sec. As others have stated, a null sec player can make much more ISK/hr doing many other things, and with less risk.
So, the only real reason why high sec produces more trit and other low-end minerals is because there are simply more players mining in high sec - the reward/risk payoff is comparable to, or better than, other high sec activities. Doesn't really matter how you tweak the high:null ore/mineral ratios, you'll still find players mining all day in high sec.
Perhaps, then, to get more mining done in null sec, what really needs to happen is for all other null sec sources of ISK farming to be nerfed, across the board, until they have a comparable or lower ISK/hr payoff than null sec mining. This includes reducing the rewards on belt ratting, mission running, exploration, etc.
Sure, it would be unpopular, at first, and the tears would flow, along with the screams (nothing new about that, but, hey, adapt or go play WoW, right?). But, I don't think null sec self-sufficiency is ever going to be reached by just continuing to tweak the minerals in and processing of null sec ore, or by trying to link sov in some way to mining. Self-sufficiency requires more players to mine. More players mining in null sec will only happen if there isn't anything easier and more profitable for them to do to farm ISK. This won't work without corresponding nerfs to lowsec, highsec, and w-space isk making as well.
Also, there's not enough ore for self-sufficiency in nullsec static belts. Hell, there is no arkonor in Deklein at all, and only 6 systems spawn Bistot.
See some of my other posts for more debunking of this ridiculous idea that static belts will cut it for nullsec self-sufficiency.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1431
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 01:18:02 -
[355] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Actually, I think there is already sufficient ore in null sec for self-sufficiency. Has been for several years now. What there is NOT in null sec, is any good reason to spend the time/effort to mine it all. Plenty of players in null sec, just not many miners - I've rarely seen an empty belt in null sec, while they are a common sight in high sec. As others have stated, a null sec player can make much more ISK/hr doing many other things, and with less risk.
So, the only real reason why high sec produces more trit and other low-end minerals is because there are simply more players mining in high sec - the reward/risk payoff is comparable to, or better than, other high sec activities. Doesn't really matter how you tweak the high:null ore/mineral ratios, you'll still find players mining all day in high sec.
Perhaps, then, to get more mining done in null sec, what really needs to happen is for all other null sec sources of ISK farming to be nerfed, across the board, until they have a comparable or lower ISK/hr payoff than null sec mining. This includes reducing the rewards on belt ratting, mission running, exploration, etc.
Sure, it would be unpopular, at first, and the tears would flow, along with the screams (nothing new about that, but, hey, adapt or go play WoW, right?). But, I don't think null sec self-sufficiency is ever going to be reached by just continuing to tweak the minerals in and processing of null sec ore, or by trying to link sov in some way to mining. Self-sufficiency requires more players to mine. More players mining in null sec will only happen if there isn't anything easier and more profitable for them to do to farm ISK. (Preface for the sarcasm challenged: this is sarcasm)
Or we could change it by removing ore from highsec.
After all, centuries of ore being stripped from the most secure regions ought to have left it completely barren of anything resembling a usable mineral.
It makes perfect sense that raw material should come from the less exhausted regions of space. Rocks don't magically respawn after all. Highsec would have only the rare ore anomaly from elliptical asteroid paths, lowsec would have belts in size to highsec's today but with lowsec ores, and nullsec would have unspoiled belts teeming with high end ores.
It is only natural that raw material flow from the less developed sections to the more developed sections. After all, you don't see an iron mine in Manhattan, do you?
Sure, it would be unpopular, at first, and the tears would flow, along with the screams (nothing new about that, but, hey, adapt or go play WoW, right?). But it is for the long term economic good of the game. Nullsec players have higher retention rates than highsec players, and solo highsec miners have the worst retention rate of everyone, so forcing highsec miners into group activities in null is advisable. More players mining in null sec will only happen if there isn't anything easier to do like farm isk in Highsec.
*End Sarcasm*
If Ratting with a carrier or running DED sites dropped me to 40 mil tomorrow, I and the vast majority of people in nullsec who make their money in nullsec would say "**** it" and quit. Completely serious. |
LTC Vuvovich
Byrds of A Feather Silent Infinity
44
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 01:21:10 -
[356] - Quote
Lets face it peeps, CCP is out of control plain and simple. This game has gone to **** ever since CCP ran off all the RMT's. I liked it better when RMT's were in charge... they didnt CHANGE things every 3 months or less. They simply CHARGED more. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2315
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 01:27:13 -
[357] - Quote
LTC Vuvovich wrote:Lets face it peeps, CCP is out of control plain and simple. This game has gone to **** ever since CCP ran off all the RMT's. I liked it better when RMT's were in charge... they didnt CHANGE things every 3 months or less. They simply CHARGED more. 7/10 |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
586
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 01:33:53 -
[358] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:If Ratting with a carrier or running DED sites dropped me to 40 mil tomorrow, I and the vast majority of people in nullsec who make their money in nullsec would say "**** it" and quit. Completely serious. lol...actually, you should have enclosed this statement in your "sarcasm" block, too.
Null sec players who own cap/supercap assets are the least likely to ever quit the game, despite all posing and threats to the contrary. They simply have invested too much of their time already into the game to just give it up and go play WoT or SWTOR, regardless of what changes are ever made by CCP. They will be the ones playing until the bitter end, until the last game server is permanently shut off, whenever in the hopefully far off future that may be. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1603
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 01:44:18 -
[359] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Anhenka wrote:If Ratting with a carrier or running DED sites dropped me to 40 mil tomorrow, I and the vast majority of people in nullsec who make their money in nullsec would say "**** it" and quit. Completely serious. lol...actually, you should have enclosed this statement in your "sarcasm" block, too. Null sec players who own cap/supercap assets are the least likely to ever quit the game, despite all posing and threats to the contrary. They simply have invested too much of their time already into the game to just give it up and go play WoT or SWTOR, regardless of what changes are ever made by CCP. They will be the ones playing until the bitter end, until the last game server is permanently shut off, whenever in the hopefully far off future that may be. Supercaps, maybe, but caps? Caps are a dime a dozen. No one is going to stay subbed just because they have a podunk 2b isk carrier farting around in their hangar.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1431
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 01:44:41 -
[360] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Anhenka wrote:If Ratting with a carrier or running DED sites dropped me to 40 mil tomorrow, I and the vast majority of people in nullsec who make their money in nullsec would say "**** it" and quit. Completely serious. lol...actually, you should have enclosed this statement in your "sarcasm" block, too. Null sec players who own cap/supercap assets are the least likely to ever quit the game, despite all posing and threats to the contrary. They simply have invested too much of their time already into the game to just give it up and go play WoT or SWTOR, regardless of what changes are ever made by CCP. They will be the ones playing until the bitter end, until the last game server is permanently shut off, whenever in the hopefully far off future that may be.
Most long term players actually have significant gaps in their play time. Lots of people I know of have just dropped the game for months when it gets boring, then come pick it back up later when a new release makes things a bit more interesting.
We enjoy fighting in nullsec, but we also need something to fight over.
Fighting over space that literally makes less than highsec mission running? No thanks. Even under Fozziesov with no changes, lots of alliances are deciding to go the no sov NPC base route because the effort of holding sov is not matching up to the bother of constantly defending it from randoms.
If space suddenly was worth less than highsec? Only the very most diehard PvP'r would want to fight over it. And guess, what, those are the ones who moved to NPC sov in the first place. |
|
LTC Vuvovich
Byrds of A Feather Silent Infinity
44
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 01:53:27 -
[361] - Quote
Okay this is definitely whats up... our little 'sandbox' universe has become a box of 'quicksand'...
: ) |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
587
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 02:00:58 -
[362] - Quote
Querns wrote:Also, there's not enough ore for self-sufficiency in nullsec static belts. Sure there is. It just depends on how you define "self-sufficiency".
If you define "self-sufficiency" as the ability to build an endless, ever-growing number of supercaps and/or T2 ships, then I'll agree that no place in EVE is self-sufficient.
But, that really isn't a good definition, particularly for a game that wants to encourage conflicts. Tthere *should* be a definite cap on resources, to ensure more conflicts over them - after all, the main reason we have conflict in RL is due to a finite amount of resources. Cut the number of moon goo souces in half - set them up to respawn in new locations every 3-6 months, and we'd see a lot more conflict in null... lol.
Querns wrote:Hell, there is no arkonor in Deklein at all, and only 6 systems spawn Bistot. Well, they certainly do exist somewhere in null, since ABC roids don't exist at all in high sec. Unless all of the megacyte and zydrine in high sec is coming from reprocessed meta modules only - in which case, null can source from the same reprocessed modules dropped by rats.
Querns wrote:See some of my other posts for more debunking of this ridiculous idea that static belts will cut it for nullsec self-sufficiency. No, thanks. I'm not saying that you don't have good arguments to support your view, but It is far too tedious to sort your worthwhile posts of substance from the posts which engage in idle trolling... ;) |
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
227
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 02:09:46 -
[363] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Actually, I think there is already sufficient ore in null sec for self-sufficiency. Has been for several years now. What there is NOT in null sec, is any good reason to spend the time/effort to mine it all. Plenty of players in null sec, just not many miners - I've rarely seen an empty belt in null sec, while they are a common sight in high sec. As others have stated, a null sec player can make much more ISK/hr doing many other things, and with less risk.
So, the only real reason why high sec produces more trit and other low-end minerals is because there are simply more players mining in high sec - the reward/risk payoff is comparable to, or better than, other high sec activities. Doesn't really matter how you tweak the high:null ore/mineral ratios, you'll still find players mining all day in high sec.
Perhaps, then, to get more mining done in null sec, what really needs to happen is for all other null sec sources of ISK farming to be nerfed, across the board, until they have a comparable or lower ISK/hr payoff than null sec mining. This includes reducing the rewards on belt ratting, mission running, exploration, etc.
Sure, it would be unpopular, at first, and the tears would flow, along with the screams (nothing new about that, but, hey, adapt or go play WoW, right?). But, I don't think null sec self-sufficiency is ever going to be reached by just continuing to tweak the minerals in and processing of null sec ore, or by trying to link sov in some way to mining. Self-sufficiency requires more players to mine. More players mining in null sec will only happen if there isn't anything easier and more profitable for them to do to farm ISK. No matter which side of the argument you are on this type of thinking is awful. Would it be okay to cut your paycheck by 50% if we buffed the paycheck of your neighbor since you live in the same general area...NO!
Especially if your neighbor has a completely different job than yours. Yes there may be some crossover in terms of income from each yet they remain different jobs being done by different people.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
|
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
587
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 02:14:51 -
[364] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Most long term players actually have significant gaps in their play time. Lots of people I know of have just dropped the game for months when it gets boring, then come pick it back up later when a new release makes things a bit more interesting. No argument, but the null sec players who fly caps/supercaps *do* come back, even when they get mad over this change or that change to the game.
Note: This isn't true of the high sec players, who don't have any investment in training time for flying a cap or supercap. When they leave, they usually stay gone.
Anhenka wrote:Fighting over space that literally makes less than highsec mission running? No thanks. If space suddenly was worth less than highsec? I never said null sec space should be worth less than high sec space. I only suggested that null sec mining would increase, if other sources of ISK farming in null sec were signficantly reduced in reward/risk ratio.
And, yes, high-sec L4 mission running has long been in need of a major nerf. The rewards are completely out of proportion with the risk (none). |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
587
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 02:26:40 -
[365] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:No matter which side of the argument you are on this type of thinking is awful. Would it be okay to cut your paycheck by 50% if we buffed the paycheck of your neighbor since you live in the same general area...NO!
Especially if your neighbor has a completely different job than yours. Yes there may be some crossover in terms of income from each yet they remain different jobs being done by different people. Actually, this RL argument doesn't apply. This is a game. Switching "jobs" is something you can do as often as you want, whenever you play.
Whether I'm PVP'ing solo, in small gangs, or in fleets... or running missions, mining, trading, manufacturing, or whatever - there really isn't that much difference. I sit in front of the computer, type on the keyboard, move my mouse, click the buttons, and drink a beer (cheers, mates!).
Essentially, the only real difference is the reward/risk per hour ratio. What makes the most ISK for the least risk in the shortest amount of time? If CCP wants the game to be balanced, then this ratio needs to be the same for all activities, particularly in each region of space (ie. null, low, high or WH), otherwise players simply won't do certain activities. |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
108
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 02:29:53 -
[366] - Quote
All this Hisecks high horse crying is getting tiresome.
There is great synergy in Eve - http://i.imgur.com/4jVAs9Z.jpg
It's just that you have to view Hi+Lowsecks as one unit, which is Empire space.
Yes, level 4s and Incursions are still skewing risk-reward Eden-wide. That can of worms won't ever be fixed, however.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
587
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 02:39:07 -
[367] - Quote
Querns wrote:Supercaps, maybe, but caps? Caps are a dime a dozen. No one is going to stay subbed just because they have a podunk 2b isk carrier farting around in their hangar. So, says the super-rich player... lol.
And, bad math on your part, too... shame, shame, particularly for a member of the Goonswarm Warfare Economic Cabal.
At 800M per PLEX, and $10-15 USD per month sub cost, this means that a 2B ISK carrier would be worth $25-37.50 USD each - or $300-450 per dozen. (assuming that my math is correct; I'm sadly not a member of any economic group) |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1603
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 02:46:59 -
[368] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Querns wrote:Also, there's not enough ore for self-sufficiency in nullsec static belts. Sure there is. It just depends on how you define "self-sufficiency". If you define "self-sufficiency" as the ability to build an endless, ever-growing number of supercaps and/or T2 ships, then I'll agree that no place in EVE is self-sufficient. Sure, if you move the goalposts far enough down the line, you can claim self-sufficiency for an extremely small number of ships. However, if the goal is to reduce nullsec's reliance on Jump Freighters as the primary method of obtaining materiel, then static belts just don't cut it. Strangely enough, this is the stated goal of the changeset.
Sizeof Void wrote: But, that really isn't a good definition, particularly for a game that wants to encourage conflicts. Tthere *should* be a definite cap on resources, to ensure more conflicts over them - after all, the main reason we have conflict in RL is due to a finite amount of resources. Cut the number of moon goo souces in half - set them up to respawn in new locations every 3-6 months, and we'd see a lot more conflict in null... lol.
Do this, and the price of T2 will explode upwards basically without limit. If you want an example of how this looks, log on to the Serenity server.
T2 moongoo is already in finite quantities; only 100 units spawn per moon per hour. It's not like we can just thrust our grubbers elbow-deep into a moon and waddle away with as much as we want.
Sizeof Void wrote: Well, they certainly do exist somewhere in null, since ABC roids don't exist at all in high sec. Unless all of the megacyte and zydrine in high sec is coming from reprocessed meta modules only - in which case, null can source from the same reprocessed modules dropped by rats.
ABC roids currently come from ore prospecting sites. The problem is that there are too many of them in any given site compared to the lowends required. Note that the changeset is significantly reducing the ABC count while boosting mid/lowend bearing ores up significantly.
The dirty secret is that highsec has never been self-sufficient when it comes to mining. The day 1 design was to make it so you had to venture out to less safe areas of space to get the full complement of minerals needed to build things. The only difference between now and post-patch is that nullsec might be able to get a moderate amount of lowends locally instead of having to JF it up from highsec (with attendant fuel/effort costs.)
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1603
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 02:48:48 -
[369] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Querns wrote:Supercaps, maybe, but caps? Caps are a dime a dozen. No one is going to stay subbed just because they have a podunk 2b isk carrier farting around in their hangar. So, says the super-rich player... lol. And, bad math on your part, too... shame, shame, particularly for a member of the Goonswarm Warfare Economic Cabal. At 800M per PLEX, and $10-15 USD per month sub cost, this means that a 2B ISK carrier would be worth $25-37.50 USD each - or $300-450 per dozen. (assuming that my math is correct; I'm sadly not a member of any economic group) The only people who assign real-world value to spaceships are journalists, and that is only so people who have no idea of the scope of Eve: Online can relate.
This sort of comparison among people who actually play and understand this game is extremely misleading.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
587
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 02:59:36 -
[370] - Quote
Querns wrote:The only people who assign real-world value to spaceships are journalists, and that is only so people who have no idea of the scope of Eve: Online can relate. Damn... ok, I fess up. I am really a freelancer for the WSJ and The Guardian. And, I only play Hello Kitty Island Adventure. |
|
Daioh Azu
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 04:39:18 -
[371] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Increasing Zydrine and Megacyte consumption in manufacturing. This is a fairly simple change, but it will have some significant effects. As we said on the o7 show, we are doubling the Zydrine and Megacyte consumption of almost all blueprints in the game. This will bring the universe-wide consumption of Zydrine and Megacyte closer to some of the original designs for overall mineral consumption, and will provide a very significant boost to Nullsec (including wormhole) and to a lesser extent Lowsec mining. While I 'm glad to see someone finally understanding the Zydrine and Megacyte content is what supports the value of Nullsec ores, doubling the demand will be a short term boost to Nullsec mining at best. Why? Vincent Athena says it best.
Vincent Athena wrote:You mine ALL the ore in the anomaly so you can get another anomaly.
Please understand that. It has been distorting the mineral supply in the game for years. Null miners DO NOT get to choose what ore they mine, they are spoon fed what to mine by game mechanics. Before drone compounds and mining anomalies the supply of Zydrine and Megacyte was limited to whatever would be mined in Nullsec belts, excluding rat loot of course, The limited supply sustained high values for both minerals because they were the manufacturing bottlenecks.
Drone compounds and spawn chaining opened the spigots for both minerals and mining anomalies ripped off the handles. While Highsec miners tend to only mine what is the most valuable from what is available, Nullsec miners will mine even the least valuable ores just to get to the supremely valuable ones.
Doubling the demand will put upward pressure on Zydrine and Megacyte temporarily, but as long as Nullsec miners can keep the spigots open by spawning new anomalies they will continue to overproduce. Zydrine and Megacyte will not maintain their value until they return to being the production bottleneck.
|
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
532
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 04:52:11 -
[372] - Quote
Jeez, I spend the weekend drinking my liver away in vegas and this thread goes to ****
I wouldn't mind CCP reducing the ark and bist in anomalies even further, making cherry picking belts and random anomaly spawns to be more valuable. I haven't finished analyzing this numbers on this, but we're already looking to be in a good spot after the change. |
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
532
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 04:58:52 -
[373] - Quote
Daioh Azu wrote:Doubling the demand will put upward pressure on Zydrine and Megacyte temporarily, but as long as Nullsec miners can keep the spigots open by spawning new anomalies they will continue to overproduce. Zydrine and Megacyte will not maintain their value until they return to being the production bottleneck.
This is incorrect-
There is only a huge surplus of zyd/mega right now because null miners are forced to mine through a TON of high end rocks to recycle the sites. With the new changes, significantly less arkonor/bistot/crokite will be available- in stripping out these belts, null miners will obtain a much more balanced distribution of ore rather than 1000% more high ends than they could ever use.
We'll see low end minerals decrease in price a bit as the supply kicks up in null, but those markets won't tank because of alliance taxes, transport cost, etc. Expect to see the compressed ore market take off even further because of the more mineral-specific types of ores that will be available.
Production costs of the usual t1 basket shouldn't change by much- the build costs are going to shift via cheaper lowends and more expensive high ends, but they should balance out in the majority of cases. |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
171
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 11:48:32 -
[374] - Quote
LTC Vuvovich wrote:Okay this is definitely whats up... our little 'sandbox' universe has become a box of 'quicksand'...
: )
More like an old-fashioned kitty litter sandbox with a diarrhea section in a north-east corner.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1603
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 13:21:04 -
[375] - Quote
You only have yourselves to blame, to be honest.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Tazinas2
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 15:37:33 -
[376] - Quote
Im no expert in the high end market, but if average daily usage in jita for example zydrine of 20-25 million units per day and that usage DOUBLES, now there is a need for 40-50 million units per day, I would think there may be a supply issue in he long run. Same thing with megacyte. Just my two pennies.
EDIT: And maybe in the not-so long run, those are big numbers to fill even for null. |
ShesAForumAlt
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 16:08:05 -
[377] - Quote
Hey Fozzie - a question I haven't seen addressed - is the reduction in the Industrial Index Decay rate still happening? And if so, is that included with these mining changes for April?
This is totally my main.-á
|
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
638
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 17:02:25 -
[378] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Yes, level 4s and Incursions are still skewing risk-reward Eden-wide. That can of worms won't ever be fixed, however.
No, they don't.
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
111
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 17:08:00 -
[379] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:GankYou wrote:Yes, level 4s and Incursions are still skewing risk-reward Eden-wide. That can of worms won't ever be fixed, however. No, they don't.
Do you comfort yourself at night with such thoughts?
http://twostep4csm.blogspot.com/2012/03/its-econmony-stupid.html
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
638
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 17:20:26 -
[380] - Quote
GankYou wrote:http://twostep4csm.blogspot.com/2012/03/its-econmony-stupid.html
Hisec Level 4s and Incursions take a substantial, if not the majority, part of the above.
And 78472828129030281 yolo-swag supers and carriers ratting in 929375 anomalies per null-system have nothing to do with it.
But our first of his name, guardian or the realms, defender of the two kingdoms and king of nullsec only wants all his members to have 2532 capitals per account and fly nothing below.
If they would just stop building them like candy, they would have ample of supply of ships to fly around.
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
|
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
111
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 17:34:34 -
[381] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:GankYou wrote:http://twostep4csm.blogspot.com/2012/03/its-econmony-stupid.html
Hisec Level 4s and Incursions take a substantial, if not the majority, part of the above. And 78472828129030281 yolo-swag supers and carriers ratting in 929375 anomalies per null-system have nothing to do with it.
I said substantial.
Doesn't take away from the fact that Level 4s and Incursions in Empire space have triple the income of mining in the same space.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1603
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 17:54:03 -
[382] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:GankYou wrote:http://twostep4csm.blogspot.com/2012/03/its-econmony-stupid.html
Hisec Level 4s and Incursions take a substantial, if not the majority, part of the above. And 78472828129030281 yolo-swag supers and carriers ratting in 929375 anomalies per null-system have nothing to do with it. But our first of his name, guardian or the realms, defender of the two kingdoms and king of nullsec only wants all his members to have 2532 capitals per account and fly nothing below. If they would just stop building them like candy, they would have ample of supply of ships to fly around. The part that you are missing is that we do have ample supplies of ships to fly around GÇö we just import them from empire. The (super)capitals that we make are also 98% built from imported empire minerals. The point of this change is to make that 98% figure go down some.
I have a posting challenge for you. Try to make a post that furthers your argument without using hyperbole or mentioning Goonswarm Federation or The Imperium in any way.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
111
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 18:59:51 -
[383] - Quote
Speaking of 98% figures - https://twitter.com/CCP_Diagoras/status/165439199904931840
Quote:In Jan 2012, 91.63% of Incursion payouts were in High sec, 3.31% low sec, 5.07% null sec.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
FearlessLittleToaster
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
42
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 19:07:43 -
[384] - Quote
Quote:No matter which side of the argument you are on this type of thinking is awful. Would it be okay to cut your paycheck by 50% if we buffed the paycheck of your neighbor since you live in the same general area...NO!
Especially if your neighbor has a completely different job than yours. Yes there may be some crossover in terms of income from each yet they remain different jobs being done by different people.
I have been lurking a bit in this thread as it moves on, and having read your posts about preserving highsec mining I do have a question for you.
As a nullsec miner I endure considerably more risk that a highsec miner. I would challenge you to show that there are more per capita highsec miner deaths from CODE etc. than nullsec miner deaths from all the people who can shoot them. The problem is that how much I make while doing that mining is 100% dependent on the ore I am mining. So if I decide to mine Veldespar then I'm making just as much (or little) as you. Possibly less since I have to be prepared to talk triple battleship belt-rat spawns or warp out every time one appears, and that doesn't even get into the risks from other players. So I need to have access to a lot of valuable ore to make it worth my time over all the other nullsec activities I can do.
So with that in mind can you come up with a way to make null mining more attractive, and make null a less logistics intensive place to live, without hurting highsec mining? As far as I can tell the only thing that would satisfy what you want is either buffing highsec mining in proportion to null (thereby maintaining equilibrium) or just admitting that mining in null is pointless and everything must be imported.
|
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2062
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 19:14:37 -
[385] - Quote
Querns wrote: The part that you are missing is that we do have ample supplies of ships to fly around GÇö we just import them from empire. The (super)capitals that we make are also 98% built from imported empire minerals. The point of this change is to make that 98% figure go down some.
I have a posting challenge for you. Try to make a post that furthers your argument without using hyperbole or mentioning Goonswarm Federation or The Imperium in any way.
Except you already have sufficient materials in the static belts to utterly replace all highsec sources. Since static belts have at least comparable low ends to a highsec belt as well as some additional high ends.
It is nothing to do with what materials are available to you in Null, it's to do with isk/hour. You choose to only rat/anoms/sigs since they give more isk/hour than mining ever will, and thus do not have the miners in Null to actually properly utilise your static belts. Also the years of all Null organisations using most industrialists for LOLZ, with recruitment gank scams and other such things being common if you aren't already in the alliance and one of their cap producers.
This change is just a hand out of income to the few null miners that exist who brainlessly turn over anoms with no thought at all, since as has been pointed out you need to mine the entire anom, so you don't even have to care about market forces like high sec miners do. At the expense of high sec miners probably who already earn a low enough income it doesn't need any kind of nerf. As well as a general price increase for all ships & modules with increased mineral requirements. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1603
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 19:17:42 -
[386] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Querns wrote: The part that you are missing is that we do have ample supplies of ships to fly around GÇö we just import them from empire. The (super)capitals that we make are also 98% built from imported empire minerals. The point of this change is to make that 98% figure go down some.
I have a posting challenge for you. Try to make a post that furthers your argument without using hyperbole or mentioning Goonswarm Federation or The Imperium in any way.
Except you already have sufficient materials in the static belts to utterly replace all highsec sources. Since static belts have at least comparable low ends to a highsec belt as well as some additional high ends. Please stop harping on this point. It has been completely, thoroughly debunked earlier in the thread. It just isn't true. Let it die.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
639
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 19:33:19 -
[387] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Doesn't take away from the fact that Level 4s and Incursions in Empire space have triple the income of mining in the same space, while also being equals to Nullsec incomes involving either missions or ratting.
First you babble about risk vs reward and now that EVE has too much isk, which is it?
I don't know how you see risk vs reward but if I risk my boat to get paid I'd say the reward is appropiate for the task and my time spend there.
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
|
Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1436
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 19:33:45 -
[388] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Except you already have sufficient materials in the static belts to utterly replace all highsec sources. Since static belts have at least comparable low ends to a highsec belt as well as some additional high ends.
It is nothing to do with what materials are available to you in Null, it's to do with isk/hour. You choose to only rat/anoms/sigs since they give more isk/hour than mining ever will, and thus do not have the miners in Null to actually properly utilise your static belts. Also the years of all Null organisations using most industrialists for LOLZ, with recruitment gank scams and other such things being common if you aren't already in the alliance and one of their cap producers.
This change is just a hand out of income to the few null miners that exist who brainlessly turn over anoms with no thought at all, since as has been pointed out you need to mine the entire anom, so you don't even have to care about market forces like high sec miners do. At the expense of high sec miners probably who already earn a low enough income it doesn't need any kind of nerf. As well as a general price increase for all ships & modules with increased mineral requirements.
TLDR version. Static Belts have always had all the material needed, Mining Anoms are what actually caused the 'problem' by causing mindsets to become very fixed into 'Anoms and nothing else' mining. I feel like I need a face shield to hold back the wave of spittle.
It gets a little more complicated that that.
0: Querns has already gone over the actual sizes of nullsec belts, and how it doesn't work out the way you think it does. But since you ignored it the first time, I see no reason to repeat it.
1: If we attract miners to mine in the belt, and ask them to mine Veldpsar, they want significantly more isk/hour for the same product than they would get in highsec to compensate for needing to pay attention at all times. They just won't work for 25 mil an hour like highsec psuedobots will.
2: If we pay them that, prices of everything goes through the roof, insanely high. You take a 1.2 Bil isk carrier, and then pay all the miners 50 mil an hour for their veld, it's suddenly a 3 bil isk carrier, 400 for a BS. Actual insurance returns only increase a fraction though, counterbalanced by the cheap empire ships.
3: The nullsec players predictably won't pay that, and instead tell all the miners to **** off and the alliance then moves to near highsec where they can continue to import all their ships from empire instead of paying 400 mil for a BS.
4: The half of the Eve universe that's not within jump range of empire turns into a barren wasteland.
So on a balancing scale between letting players actually get trit out of the anomalies + highsec miners losing some demand Vs. taking half of the regions in EVE to be taken out back and shot, highsec miners taking a hit is by far the least worst of the two possibilities.
|
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2318
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 19:42:17 -
[389] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Querns wrote: The part that you are missing is that we do have ample supplies of ships to fly around GÇö we just import them from empire. The (super)capitals that we make are also 98% built from imported empire minerals. The point of this change is to make that 98% figure go down some.
I have a posting challenge for you. Try to make a post that furthers your argument without using hyperbole or mentioning Goonswarm Federation or The Imperium in any way.
Except you already have sufficient materials in the static belts to utterly replace all highsec sources. Since static belts have at least comparable low ends to a highsec belt as well as some additional high ends. Technically yes, they contain every mineral needed, but the ratios are way off. You mine out every single belt and asteroid in New Eden and you will have a massive oversupply of high-ends, which only come from outside empire. More than highsec and nullsec could ever find a use for, especially after all of the tritanium and pyerite run out.
Its like buying a car for the tires. You're getting more way more than you want in order to get what you need.
Let's take a look at arknor for a moment (I know this isnt representative of all ores):
Based on current market, after the recent price hike for high ends, Megacyte and Zydrine account for about 86% of the value of the minerals. Compare that to a sample build cost for Epithal. The same two minerals account for under 5% of the build material cost.
Lets look at Arknor again under new numbers. The value of Megacyte (zydrine is removed) has dropped to only 73% of the ore's value.
Even spud has received a significant change, dropping its meg (used to be 38% of value) for some iso and mex, leaving Trit as its primary value of 50%
Caveat here, not sure how the demand for high-ends will change these numbers and in what directions or for how long.
I think I'm going to play with this sheet more and see if i cant link a more comprehensive one here |
GetSirrus
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
94
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 19:48:31 -
[390] - Quote
I appreciate the thought out response. I'd like to address one point.
Querns wrote:The point of ore prospecting sites is to promote density in nullsec. Allowing more players to make a living in a smaller amount of space lets more people enjoy nullsec, and provides more food for PVPers to feast upon. It's win/win.
In terms of farms and fields, what is being offered by CCP Fozzie amounts to a Genetically Enhanced crop (Fozzie GEGäó). Less farmers and more yield. That would at face value mean less targets for the PvPers?! Additionally these targets would be within densely populated systems - reducing chance or isolated opportunities to be attacked.
Coupled with; It has been a regular posit by players that Null Sec is the end game of Eve and that players should aspire to emigrate from high-sec. Yet there is a distinct lack of recruitment for mining by null held authority. The more yield from less harvesters re-enforces this. Thus there is little welcome for miners into null. Should they remain trapped in high-sec like some ghetto?
Additionally, given the near automated player style that mining induces - out of step with the mechanics of the rest of game. Perhaps it should not be a dead-end, relegate the operation to deployable platforms and be done with a player style that has little long-term prospect. |
|
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2318
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 19:59:49 -
[391] - Quote
GetSirrus wrote:In terms of farms and fields, what is being offered by CCP Fozzie amounts to a Genetically Enhanced crop (Fozzie GEGäó). Less farmers and more yield. That would at face value mean less targets for the PvPers?! Additionally these targets would be within densely populated systems - reducing chance or isolated opportunities to be attacked. I don't think the isolation or density should matter that much. I'll happily bowl through a pack of procurer again even if I only kill one. And the resulting defenders coming to kick me out would be a plus too.
And I disagree, I believe there would be more targets, since there is more reason to be out in belts. Will they come out from the woodwork in droves? Absolutely not, but there would definitely be an increase.
GetSirrus wrote:Coupled with; It has been a regular posit by players that Null Sec is the end game of Eve and that players should aspire to emigrate from high-sec. Yet there is a distinct lack of recruitment for mining by null held authority. The more yield from less harvesters re-enforces this. Thus there is little welcome for miners into null. Should they remain trapped in high-sec like some ghetto? I don't personally agree with nullsec being the endgame. in my opinion, you can find your endgame anywhere you want and also find out that theres more out there. One of my favorite aspects of Eve really.
There is no reason to recruit them. If you let them mine for the increased income, you will get nothing but a few extra taxes (assuming they reprocess in null) or just watch as they ship the materials to highsec since you can only use so much zyd/meg/morph. If you make them mine the low-ends for as long as theyll last, they demand more isk for risking more, which means highsec importers win by price, sending the new miners back to wherever they were from.
Essentially, the current most optimal position to place any miners you recruit is in highsec. Move a couple randoms for the high-ends and you have a nice situation mirroring exactly what is happening now.
GetSirrus wrote:Additionally, given the near automated player style that mining induces - out of step with the mechanics of the rest of game. Perhaps it should not be a dead-end, relegate the operation to deployable platforms and be done with a player style that has little long-term prospect. I don't know about that. Based on that line of though, we should move ratting to automation too. Maybe add some more interesting gameplay aspects to the environment around it. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1603
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 20:00:34 -
[392] - Quote
GetSirrus wrote:I appreciate the thought out response. I'd like to address one point. Querns wrote:The point of ore prospecting sites is to promote density in nullsec. Allowing more players to make a living in a smaller amount of space lets more people enjoy nullsec, and provides more food for PVPers to feast upon. It's win/win. In terms of farms and fields, what is being offered by CCP Fozzie amounts to a Genetically Enhanced crop (Fozzie GEGäó). Less farmers and more yield. That would at face value mean less targets for the PvPers?! Additionally these targets would be within densely populated systems - reducing chance or isolated opportunities to be attacked. Coupled with; It has been a regular posit by players that Null Sec is the end game of Eve and that players should aspire to emigrate from high-sec. Yet there is a distinct lack of recruitment for mining by null held authority. The more yield from less harvesters re-enforces this. Thus there is little welcome for miners into null. Should they remain trapped in high-sec like some ghetto? Additionally, given the near automated player style that mining induces - out of step with the mechanics of the rest of game. Perhaps it should not be a dead-end, relegate the operation to deployable platforms and be done with a player style that has little long-term prospect. This is not a very good analysis of the changes. Making mining more lucrative in nullsec increases player density. Currently, the best way to mine (in terms of managing one's sanity) is to gang together in small groups and shoot the shit on Mumble while you suck crok. This means a lot more people hanging out in space, in general. Plus, given the significant reduction of the high-value highend producing roids, I would argue that the yield is neutral at best, in terms of making money.
If you want to mine in nullsec, you are welcome to join a nullsec corporation, as long as you have at least one character in your stable that is military capable. (Or, if you're a genuine newbie, we'll welcome you with open arms, shower you with isk, and point you in a good skill training direction.) Personally, I only have one active military capable character in Goonwaffe, and the others on my six accounts mostly support my industrial activities.
I highly doubt that CCP will go for mining structures, as items that passively mine minerals. Most likely, they will introduce deployables that perform an intermediate step to new resources, allowing players to mine the intermediate things directly.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2318
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 20:03:34 -
[393] - Quote
all being said and done, about those mining structures, I have yet to wrap my head around what they actually plan on doing with the new structures they are suggesting. |
Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1436
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 20:06:29 -
[394] - Quote
GetSirrus wrote:I appreciate the thought out response. I'd like to address one point. Querns wrote:The point of ore prospecting sites is to promote density in nullsec. Allowing more players to make a living in a smaller amount of space lets more people enjoy nullsec, and provides more food for PVPers to feast upon. It's win/win. In terms of farms and fields, what is being offered by CCP Fozzie amounts to a Genetically Enhanced crop (Fozzie GEGäó). Less farmers and more yield. That would at face value mean less targets for the PvPers?! Additionally these targets would be within densely populated systems - reducing chance or isolated opportunities to be attacked. Coupled with; It has been a regular posit by players that Null Sec is the end game of Eve and that players should aspire to emigrate from high-sec. Yet there is a distinct lack of recruitment for mining by null held authority. The more yield from less harvesters re-enforces this. Thus there is little welcome for miners into null. Should they remain trapped in high-sec like some ghetto? Additionally, given the near automated player style that mining induces - out of step with the mechanics of the rest of game. Perhaps it should not be a dead-end, relegate the operation to deployable platforms and be done with a player style that has little long-term prospect.
1: There being very little reason to have miners under the current system, even if each person can do more under the new system, the fact that it draws far more people to mine means that the actual number of miners (and this potential targets) increases drastically. It's not like there is a static demand for minerals and nobody is allowed to exceed the group quota.
On the second part, miners tend to spread out some naturally to be able to shift around in response to blopsers. With the new anomalies even 4-5 miners together can easily tank and gank the spawns and mine equally as effectively in any system in their space, so there's little force to centralize miners in one spot.
2: Not recruiting miners will be much harder once the JF nerf goes into effect at some point down the road. At that point, for regions outside of jump range of lowsec, the options will be either mine it locally, or import it through WH's (A total pain in the ass).
Even with just the anomaly changes but before the JF changes, it greatly encourages recruiting miners to regions in deep nullsec. For example, it was 5 midpoints to empire one way from my staging system a week or two ago. Round trip was nearly 100 mil in fuel and cyno's, along with 3-4 hours of time. While importing compressed veld was still feasible, it added a markup that I would have rather just paid to miners locally. There WILL be demand for miners.
3: Don't even start with automation suggestions. It's not even on the table as a possibility.
TLDR: You are looking at the current changes through a lens of what the current pre-patch situation is, not the situations that will unfold as CCP works towards their goals. There WILL be demand for miners in mid/deep nullsec immediately following this patch. The demand WILL increase in the future once CCP nerfs Jump Freighter ranges as they have said they are planning to do. |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
587
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 20:16:17 -
[395] - Quote
FearlessLittleToaster wrote:As a nullsec miner I endure considerably more risk that a highsec miner. I would challenge you to show that there are more per capita highsec miner deaths from CODE etc. than nullsec miner deaths from all the people who can shoot them. Unless you've been solo mining in N3 space, I seriously doubt that you are at risk from other players, when mining in Goon space, unless your corpmates have taken up awoxing.
FearlessLittleToaster wrote:Possibly less since I have to be prepared to talk triple battleship belt-rat spawns or warp out every time one appears Simple fix - ask CCP to just remove those BS belt spawns. This would also reduce belt ratting as a source of easier ISK farming, as compared to null sec mining. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1603
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 20:23:56 -
[396] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:FearlessLittleToaster wrote:As a nullsec miner I endure considerably more risk that a highsec miner. I would challenge you to show that there are more per capita highsec miner deaths from CODE etc. than nullsec miner deaths from all the people who can shoot them. Unless you've been solo mining in N3 space, I seriously doubt that you are at risk from other players, when mining in Goon space, unless your corpmates have taken up awoxing. Hotdroppers roam Deklein nightly. Deklein is also a favored target for most wormholers looking for easy nullsec ganks. Goonswarm Federation's newbie-friendly recruitment policies ensure a wide buffet of folks in space without significant "street smarts."
Sizeof Void wrote:FearlessLittleToaster wrote:Possibly less since I have to be prepared to talk triple battleship belt-rat spawns or warp out every time one appears Simple fix - ask CCP to just remove those BS belt spawns. This would also reduce belt ratting as a source of easier ISK farming, as compared to null sec mining. If you seriously think anyone is belt ratting in TYOOL 2015, you have serious misconceptions about contemporary Eve: Online. CCP removed belt chaining years ago, turning a pretty poor PvE activity into hot, buttered sewage.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2318
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 20:24:25 -
[397] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:FearlessLittleToaster wrote:As a nullsec miner I endure considerably more risk that a highsec miner. I would challenge you to show that there are more per capita highsec miner deaths from CODE etc. than nullsec miner deaths from all the people who can shoot them. Unless you've been solo mining in N3 space, I seriously doubt that you are at risk from other players, when mining in Goon space, unless your corpmates have taken up awoxing. That sounds like a player made solution. Even hig-seccers don't have to worry about awoxxing as much as they did before.
Risk is still there. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
641
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 20:28:29 -
[398] - Quote
Querns wrote:The part that you are missing is that we do have ample supplies of ships to fly around GÇö we just import them from empire. The (super)capitals that we make are also 98% built from imported empire minerals. The point of this change is to make that 98% figure go down some...
Nobody is doubting that.
Supers aside, the consequenses of self-sufficency goes beyond nullsec. Why would any nullsec corp want to trade anything if they can just make all the stuff they want where they live?
They can just stay where they are and never be bothered to go beyond their own borders. That may sound cool for them but everyone else it is going to be bad.
Then you talk about isk per hour, in your space and tell me about hyperbole.
Funny you mention this, again what is that money for?
In a self-sufficient space, a member asks in alliance chat 'I want x boat' and someone says 'there you go, pick it up in y station'.
In low- or highsec someone wants a boat and since nullsec doesn't want to trade anymore there are none, she or he quits.
Fights only happen in nullsec and wormholes sometimes since they can make stuff and only need a connection to low- or highsec to assemble the stuff they can make (tech3 anyone??) to use it.
Highsec sells tritanium, mexallon, pyrite, isogen and some noxcium for 1 isk per unit - happy future.
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
|
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
587
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 20:35:11 -
[399] - Quote
Querns wrote:Currently, the best way to mine (in terms of managing one's sanity) is to gang together in small groups and shoot the shit on Mumble while you suck crok. This means a lot more people hanging out in space, in general. lol... this is exactly how mining used to work throughout high sec, until CCP decided it was too passive and too safe - and figured that encouraging more high sec PVP to counter this type of game play would somehow make mining more exciting and eventually bring in more subscriptions.
Well, you don't want to make null sec mining too safe or boring, either.... so, maybe null sec mining should be restricted only to systems where a hostile alliance has sov - ie. miners cannot mine in their own space and are forced to go to hostile space in order to mine. I can see it now... fleets of mining barges grinding rocks while being guarded by supercaps...lol. |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
111
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 20:37:49 -
[400] - Quote
GetSirrus wrote: In terms of farms and fields, what is being offered by CCP Fozzie amounts to a Genetically Enhanced crop (Fozzie GEGäó).
I like it. A lot.
Marry me, and we can raise our GE cows together.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
|
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2319
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 20:39:12 -
[401] - Quote
elitatwo wrote: Nobody is doubting that.
Supers aside, the consequenses of self-sufficency goes beyond nullsec. Why would any nullsec corp want to trade anything if they can just make all the stuff they want where they live?
They can just stay where they are and never be bothered to go beyond their own borders. That may sound cool for them but everyone else it is going to be bad.
No one asking for total self-sufficiency. A push in the direction, but not total independence.
elitatwo wrote:Then you talk about isk per hour, in your space and tell me about hyperbole.
Funny you mention this, again what is that money for?
In a self-sufficient space, a member asks in alliance chat 'I want x boat' and someone says 'there you go, pick it up in y station'.
In low- or highsec someone wants a boat and since nullsec doesn't want to trade anymore there are none, she or he quits. Again, nobody asking for total self-sufficiency. I'm not sure where you're getting this from.
elitatwo wrote:Fights only happen in nullsec and wormholes sometimes since they can make stuff and only need a connection to low- or highsec to assemble the stuff they can make (tech3 anyone??) to use it.
Highsec sells tritanium, mexallon, pyrite, isogen and some noxcium for 1 isk per unit - happy future. You have a very special imagination. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2319
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 20:42:13 -
[402] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Querns wrote:Currently, the best way to mine (in terms of managing one's sanity) is to gang together in small groups and shoot the shit on Mumble while you suck crok. This means a lot more people hanging out in space, in general. lol... this is exactly how mining used to work throughout high sec, until CCP decided it was too passive and too safe - and figured that encouraging more high sec PVP to counter this type of game play would somehow make mining more exciting and eventually bring in more subscriptions. And how has this changed?
Sizeof Void wrote:Well, you don't want to make null sec mining too safe or boring, either.... so, maybe null sec mining should be restricted only to systems where a hostile alliance has sov - ie. miners cannot mine in their own space and are forced to go to hostile space in order to mine. I can see it now... fleets of mining barges grinding rocks while being guarded by supercaps...lol. Not sure if serious... |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
587
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 20:48:51 -
[403] - Quote
Querns wrote:Hotdroppers roam Deklein nightly. Deklein is also a favored target for most wormholers looking for easy nullsec ganks. Goonswarm Federation's newbie-friendly recruitment policies ensure a wide buffet of folks in space without significant "street smarts." Uh, yeah, sure, I forgot... those WH folks have been a non-stop serious threat to GSF, roaming freely to hunt those poor null sec noobs and miners. WH bloggers do nonthing but gloat about their nightly ganking sprees. Damn... CCP really should do something about that, before null sec players start quitting the game in droves.
Querns wrote:If you seriously think anyone is belt ratting in TYOOL 2015, you have serious misconceptions about contemporary Eve: Online. CCP removed belt chaining years ago, turning a pretty poor PvE activity into hot, buttered sewage. No, I agree that anyone for whom a 2B ISK carrier is just chump change certainly would not spend much time ratting. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1603
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 20:51:10 -
[404] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Querns wrote:Currently, the best way to mine (in terms of managing one's sanity) is to gang together in small groups and shoot the shit on Mumble while you suck crok. This means a lot more people hanging out in space, in general. lol... this is exactly how mining used to work throughout high sec, until CCP decided it was too passive and too safe - and figured that encouraging more high sec PVP to counter this type of game play would somehow make mining more exciting and eventually bring in more subscriptions. You must have missed the part where CCP has repeatedly nerfed suicide ganking over the years. During the first gallente ice interdiction, I scored a pentakill of exhumers using a smartbombing raven, AND got insurance money for my loss.
This is impossible today.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1603
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 20:56:29 -
[405] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Querns wrote:Hotdroppers roam Deklein nightly. Deklein is also a favored target for most wormholers looking for easy nullsec ganks. Goonswarm Federation's newbie-friendly recruitment policies ensure a wide buffet of folks in space without significant "street smarts." Uh, yeah, sure, I forgot... those WH folks have been a non-stop serious threat to GSF, roaming freely to hunt those poor null sec noobs and miners. WH bloggers do nonthing but gloat about their nightly ganking sprees. Damn... CCP really should do something about that, before null sec players start quitting the game in droves. Querns wrote:If you seriously think anyone is belt ratting in TYOOL 2015, you have serious misconceptions about contemporary Eve: Online. CCP removed belt chaining years ago, turning a pretty poor PvE activity into hot, buttered sewage. No, I agree that anyone for whom a 2B ISK carrier is just chump change certainly would not spend much time ratting. You've got a disturbing penchant for misreading basically anything that is put in front of you.
The first thing was to describe that Deklein is not as safe as you implied it is. Threats exist. I'm not calling for the threats to be extinguished from without by change of game policy; merely pointing out that they exist.
The second thing was to point out how out of touch you are by your implication that anyone would ever belt rat when combat anomalies exist, especially when belt ratting's only redeeming feature was castrated back in 2012ish.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
587
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 21:16:36 -
[406] - Quote
Querns wrote:You must have missed the part where CCP has repeatedly nerfed suicide ganking over the years. During the first gallente ice interdiction, I scored a pentakill of exhumers using a smartbombing raven, AND got insurance money for my loss.
This is impossible today. Hmm... guess that not everyone got the message that suicide ganking is "impossible today".
Looks like you are the one who is woefully out of date. The Gallente Ice Interdiction was a short-term llimited activity, as were the old Hulkageddons.
In today's EVE Online, high sec suicide ganking is a 23.5/7 activity, and not merely limited to a few ice fields. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1603
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 21:19:00 -
[407] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Querns wrote:You must have missed the part where CCP has repeatedly nerfed suicide ganking over the years. During the first gallente ice interdiction, I scored a pentakill of exhumers using a smartbombing raven, AND got insurance money for my loss.
This is impossible today. Hmm... guess that not everyone got the message that suicide ganking is "impossible today". Looks like you are the one who is woefully out of date. The Gallente Ice Interdiction was a short-term llimited activity, as were the old Hulkageddons. In today's EVE Online, high sec suicide ganking is a 23.5/7 activity, and not merely limited to a few ice fields. There you go again, misreading the post.
Let me rephrase so you understand the actual meaning of the message: "Barges received a massive EHP buff after the gallente ice interdiction, and CCP removed insurance payouts from losses to CONCORD; therefore, you can't do the same thing today."
I did NOT say "suicide ganking is impossible today." Come on, man.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
587
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 21:23:19 -
[408] - Quote
Querns wrote: The second thing was to point out how out of touch you are by your implication that anyone would ever belt rat when combat anomalies exist, especially when belt ratting's only redeeming feature was castrated back in 2012ish.
No, again, I fully agree. Anyone who can fly a carrier can easily solo combat anomolies, and null sec combat anomalies pay out way more than belt rats, even when belt chaining was still possible.
Certainly, combat anomalies also need a major nerf in terms of payout, in order for null sec mining to ever compete as a desirable method of grinding ISK. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1603
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 21:24:38 -
[409] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Querns wrote: The second thing was to point out how out of touch you are by your implication that anyone would ever belt rat when combat anomalies exist, especially when belt ratting's only redeeming feature was castrated back in 2012ish.
No, again, I fully agree. Anyone who can fly a carrier can easily solo combat anomolies, and null sec combat anomalies pay out way more than belt rats, even when belt chaining was still possible. Certainly, combat anomalies also need a major nerf in terms of payout, in order for null sec mining to ever compete as a desirable method of grinding ISK. Nah. They already pale behind L4s and highsec incursions in terms of isk/hr.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
587
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 21:44:41 -
[410] - Quote
Querns wrote:Nah. They already pale behind L4s and highsec incursions in terms of isk/hr. Yep, as I stated a bit earlier, payouts for high sec L4s are out of proportion with their risk and have long needed to be nerfed.
Incursions are a game design balance blunder - plain and simple. They have been easily exploited since day one and CCP has never gotten around to fixing them.
So, it still comes down to this: if you want null sec mining to work, it has to be comparable, or superior, with respect to reward/risk per hr payout, to other activities. Probably superior in payout, since it is a lot more boring.
However, simply increasing the value of null sec mining isn't the solution - this sort of nonsense has already caused too many problems in the game. It is long past time for CCP to nerf the sources of ISK farming. |
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1603
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 21:53:08 -
[411] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Querns wrote:Nah. They already pale behind L4s and highsec incursions in terms of isk/hr. Yep, as I stated a bit earlier, payouts for high sec L4s are out of proportion with their risk and have long needed to be nerfed. Incursions are a game design balance blunder - plain and simple. They have been easily exploited since day one and CCP has never gotten around to fixing them. So, it still comes down to this: if you want null sec mining to work, it has to be comparable, or superior, with respect to reward/risk per hr payout, to other activities. Probably superior in payout, since it is a lot more boring. However, simply increasing the value of null sec mining isn't the solution - this sort of nonsense has already caused too many problems in the game. It is long past time for CCP to nerf the sources of ISK farming. Actually, making mining more lucrative does the opposite of what you're thinking -- it actually REDUCES the amount of isk coming into the game.
Ore and minerals do not generate isk from the game. Players have to spend existing isk to acquire them, which is subject to market taxes. Alternatively, they have to use the minerals for industry, which comes with its own attendant taxes. Both of these acts reduce the total amount of isk in the game.
Additionally, making mining more lucrative may turn players from shooting red crosses, an act that increases the total amount of isk in the economy (much to the chagrin of CCP) to shooting asteroids. This reduces the incoming amount of isk in its own way, but the degree to which is pretty speculative, as human behavior is hard to predict.
CCP will ALWAYS prefer to reward players in ways that do not increase the total isk supply in the game. This is why, e.g., the patch that saw the Encounter Surveillance System reduced bounties globally by 5%, then added the extra reward for suffering them as LP (which reduces the amount of isk in the game by virtue of LP store offers costing an amount of isk in addition to LP.)
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
111
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 21:59:41 -
[412] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:It is long past time for CCP to nerf the sources of ISK farming.
You mean Level 4s and Incursions in Hisec?
As early as 2008, I remember making dank ISK with no rISK involved. It still appears to be the case nowadays.
Money for nothing, and chicks for free!
Incidentally during that time period there was a chance to move Level 4s to Lowsec, but alas due to heavy forum debatesGäó nothing was done.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1605
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 22:15:05 -
[413] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Querns wrote: Actually, making mining more lucrative does the opposite of what you're thinking -- it actually REDUCES the amount of isk coming into the game.
Ore and minerals do not generate isk from the game. Players have to spend existing isk to acquire them, which is subject to market taxes.
Indeed, but only if the current ratters specialise into mining. Yeah, I'll admit this is a big "if." However, if the isk/hr is good enough, people will do it! There's also stuff we can do, alliance-side, to promote it over ratting.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
112
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 22:21:14 -
[414] - Quote
Someone has to do something about CONCORD and its unlimited ISK finance facility.
Almost like real life!
I can totally see barter system working in Eve, with a slight improvement to the contract system, heh-heh.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
171
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 23:15:06 -
[415] - Quote
Querns wrote:GankYou wrote:Querns wrote: Actually, making mining more lucrative does the opposite of what you're thinking -- it actually REDUCES the amount of isk coming into the game.
Ore and minerals do not generate isk from the game. Players have to spend existing isk to acquire them, which is subject to market taxes.
Indeed, but only if the current ratters specialise into mining. Yeah, I'll admit this is a big "if." However, if the isk/hr is good enough, people will do it! There's also stuff we can do, alliance-side, to promote it over ratting.
So all of the Deklein ratting bots will be "promoted" to mining bots? Well, like I were saying, whoever has the biggest bot fleet wins the mineral rush.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
|
Eodp Ellecon
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
17
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 23:24:54 -
[416] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:No matter which side of the argument you are on this type of thinking is awful. Would it be okay to cut your paycheck by 50% if we buffed the paycheck of your neighbor since you live in the same general area...NO!
Especially if your neighbor has a completely different job than yours. Yes there may be some crossover in terms of income from each yet they remain different jobs being done by different people.
I've been thinking about this post for days exercising some restraint.
The Real Life part...
When you get out of High School you'll soon find out that people do indeed get paid different wages for the same job, even sometimes when working alongside the miner next to them. Race, education, charisma, gender, regional economics all play factors. After those things are settled in the immediate environment the same issues come to bear on an international scale - copper mines in South America affect global price indexes which affects whether a local mine in SW USA stays open or not. This carries across into economics of others not involved at all in the original activity, ie someone else's wages get cut unrelated.
Consider at least your retirement isn't connected to a municipality or corporation that may be going broke so you'd be faced with a perma-cut to wages you had considered contractual.
The EVE part...
If mining in EVE doesn't pay you enough in the months following patch and prices settling out, you will do what everyone with self-direction does, skill train.
The whole thread is about changing 1 part of mining in Null. The world has not ended and CCP says it's to go in a direction they had desired but effectively mis-allocated during initial programing based on expectations of use. If it gets broke, they'll adjust again in 6-8 months like they already have regarding Ore content in the past 3 years multiple times.
I have mined in HS and null. I mine belts, rat belts (yes, Querns I'm dumb), mine anoms, rat anoms, build stuff, import stuff and modestly pvp. I've done LVL IV missions too. Yes there are optimal isk-hour situations. I've also watched Null miner isk-hour go to ZERO while a single cloaky AFK bomber roamed 1-2x a day between just a couple systems effectively shutting down 16h-23h a day in opportunity where all you stuff is based.
Eo |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1606
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 23:36:36 -
[417] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote: So all of the Deklein ratting bots will be "promoted" to mining bots? Well, like I were saying, whoever has the biggest bot fleet wins the mineral rush.
Why use a bot when a Mackinaw does 95% of what a bot does without the attendant risk of being hellbanned by CCP?
The same thing applies to ishtars and ratting.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
171
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 23:42:51 -
[418] - Quote
Querns wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote: So all of the Deklein ratting bots will be "promoted" to mining bots? Well, like I were saying, whoever has the biggest bot fleet wins the mineral rush.
Why use a bot when a Mackinaw does 95% of what a bot does without the attendant risk of being hellbanned by CCP? The same thing applies to ishtars and ratting.
Because as long as they make enough, you don't care if they're banned. CCP can hellban individuals, but not alliances. And you cannot manage 20 Mackinaws while you're asleep. The same thing applies to carriers and ratting.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
|
Colonel Sanderzs
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 23:57:12 -
[419] - Quote
I have mined both high-sec and null ores for over a year each and my thoughts are:
This change is an increase in the value of mining in null and a decrease for high-sec mining while giving null sec more access to high-sec ores. At this point it's difficult to determine how much of a hit the value of high-sec ores will take and so I understand *some* of their posts and concerns while a quarter of them are misled. However as stated by others, with mining or any other activity you need to take into account risk vs reward without stupifying it and accept that ccp may want to tilt risk vs reward to balance the payout of mining in different environments.
For example, I have a friend who only mines in high-sec because he can mine all day semi-afk and take home 100+mil per day. Sometimes his ship will sit there for hours if he gets tied up but at the end of an average day he makes more than I do. For those that haven't tried it, the null environment is never safe and you always rely on a dozen or more other players for defense, boosts, etc whereas in high-sec you don't. You cannot mine afk in null and you cannot always mine with boosts or mine at all pending on the situation. You lose ships in null and have worse npc rats in null, so while some of you think we're rich with millions, well some of us are but we didn't get there semi afk.
So I think generally it's ok to make ore more valuable in null to reward for additional risk, but ccp should be careful that high-sec ore doesn't take too big of a hit. But seriously mining in high-sec with little to no risk should not be taken for granted. It is the goose of high-sec.
I also agree that it does not make sense to have ore anoms accessible to ship scanners without scan probes. Why would you encourage pvp ships to go after mining ships?
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1606
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 00:12:11 -
[420] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Querns wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote: So all of the Deklein ratting bots will be "promoted" to mining bots? Well, like I were saying, whoever has the biggest bot fleet wins the mineral rush.
Why use a bot when a Mackinaw does 95% of what a bot does without the attendant risk of being hellbanned by CCP? The same thing applies to ishtars and ratting. Because as long as they make enough, you don't care if they're banned. CCP can hellban individuals, but not alliances. And you cannot manage 20 Mackinaws while you're asleep. The same thing applies to carriers and ratting. This might work if mining characters didn't require a lot of SP to operate, and if CCP was too stupid to ban one bot, but not notice the other 19 you're running. Getting one pile of bots banned means that you have to start over training new pilots, which means running at severely reduced yield for months.
And what says CCP can't ban alliances? If CCP hasn't done it in practice, it's because "entire alliances" aren't botting.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
|
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2802
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 00:16:53 -
[421] - Quote
I might be late to the party with this one, but it seems that with these changes you could get at least 1 battlecruiser worth of minerals per hulk per hour, plus some extra might be enough for a cruiser also.
Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
114
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 00:21:06 -
[422] - Quote
Speaking of cybernetics-enhanced performance - this was in Rancer, Rancer of all places!
http://i.imgur.com/MVMMQco.jpg
Didn't stop to think about the Legion having Beams. vOv
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
533
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 00:24:06 -
[423] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Querns wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote: So all of the Deklein ratting bots will be "promoted" to mining bots? Well, like I were saying, whoever has the biggest bot fleet wins the mineral rush.
Why use a bot when a Mackinaw does 95% of what a bot does without the attendant risk of being hellbanned by CCP? The same thing applies to ishtars and ratting. Because as long as they make enough, you don't care if they're banned. CCP can hellban individuals, but not alliances. And you cannot manage 20 Mackinaws while you're asleep. The same thing applies to carriers and ratting.
Some serious grasping going on itt |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2321
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 00:40:16 -
[424] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Speaking of cybernetics-enhanced performance - this was in Rancer, Rancer of all places! http://i.imgur.com/yiNTZ9S.jpg Didn't stop to think about that Legion having Beams. vOv I think that's a Role-Playing corp with real people. What the hell is up with that HUD? CAPSULEEJECTEDWARPDRIVEACTIVEKILLREPORTAVAILIBLESHIELDSATFIFTYPERCE T
Don't you just love that post-Exploding lag |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
115
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 00:46:07 -
[425] - Quote
Used to be far worse back in the day, with a loading bar across the screen.
I'd love to see the capsule being ejected prior to complete destruction of the spaceship, so you can enjoy the nice explosions as you fofofofofo into warp.
Since we're in Rancer - Anyone in this thread that actually mines in Lowsec - do you think the changes are sufficient to actually draw some portion of Hisec miners a step lower?
I can understand your concerns for anonymity, if you refuse to disclose that.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Simon Alfrir
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 03:30:17 -
[426] - Quote
FearlessLittleToaster wrote:[quote] As a nullsec miner I endure considerably more risk that a highsec miner. I would challenge you to show that there are more per capita highsec miner deaths from CODE etc. than nullsec miner deaths from all the people who can shoot them.
Care to give us your miner character's name so we can see just how 'dangerous' it is for you? It's not with this account which you posted with as I can't find the mining ships you've lost. How many times has your miner died in the past month? How about for your entire corp? Are we talking daily, weekly, monthly or bi-annual kills?
From what I've read there are null systems safely tucked away at the end of a pipe with no travel and full-time miners using multi-boxers to haul in the ore. Do you dispute that is occurring? That doesn't sound very dangerous to me.
The rich will get richer off the backs of the Highsec miners. You already get enough bonuses for living in 0.0. There is nothing broken in Null right now but this will change things negatively for Highsec. I would hazard to guess that the number of players being negatively affected outweighs the number who will be benefiting from the proposed change. |
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
533
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 03:55:55 -
[427] - Quote
Simon Alfrir wrote:The rich will get richer off the backs of the Highsec miners. You already get enough bonuses for living in 0.0. There is nothing broken in Null right now but this will change things negatively for Highsec.
Wealth per hour comparison
Simon Alfrir wrote: I would hazard to guess that the number of players being negatively affected outweighs the number who will be benefiting from the proposed change.
The only hazard with this change is your posting |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
587
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 03:57:07 -
[428] - Quote
When does this change take effect, anyways? April what? |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2323
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 04:17:11 -
[429] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:When does this change take effect, anyways? April what? april 28th |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1606
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 05:05:11 -
[430] - Quote
Simon Alfrir wrote:FearlessLittleToaster wrote:[quote] As a nullsec miner I endure considerably more risk that a highsec miner. I would challenge you to show that there are more per capita highsec miner deaths from CODE etc. than nullsec miner deaths from all the people who can shoot them.
Care to give us your miner character's name so we can see just how 'dangerous' it is for you? It's not with this account which you posted with as I can't find the mining ships you've lost. How many times has your miner died in the past month? How about for your entire corp? Are we talking daily, weekly, monthly or bi-annual kills? From what I've read there are null systems safely tucked away at the end of a pipe with no travel and full-time miners using multi-boxers to haul in the ore. Do you dispute that is occurring? That doesn't sound very dangerous to me. The rich will get richer off the backs of the Highsec miners. You already get enough bonuses for living in 0.0. There is nothing broken in Null right now but this will change things negatively for Highsec. I would hazard to guess that the number of players being negatively affected outweighs the number who will be benefiting from the proposed change. Ah, yes, the killboard challenge from a poster who has been alive for four days.
But hey, I'll oblige anyways: Deklein sees some barge kills often. When you consider how awful mining is right now in nullsec, this is quite a lot!
e: bbcode is hard
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
|
Simon Alfrir
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 06:11:25 -
[431] - Quote
Querns wrote:Simon Alfrir wrote:FearlessLittleToaster wrote:[quote] As a nullsec miner I endure considerably more risk that a highsec miner. I would challenge you to show that there are more per capita highsec miner deaths from CODE etc. than nullsec miner deaths from all the people who can shoot them.
Care to give us your miner character's name so we can see just how 'dangerous' it is for you? It's not with this account which you posted with as I can't find the mining ships you've lost. How many times has your miner died in the past month? How about for your entire corp? Are we talking daily, weekly, monthly or bi-annual kills? From what I've read there are null systems safely tucked away at the end of a pipe with no travel and full-time miners using multi-boxers to haul in the ore. Do you dispute that is occurring? That doesn't sound very dangerous to me. The rich will get richer off the backs of the Highsec miners. You already get enough bonuses for living in 0.0. There is nothing broken in Null right now but this will change things negatively for Highsec. I would hazard to guess that the number of players being negatively affected outweighs the number who will be benefiting from the proposed change. Ah, yes, the killboard challenge from a poster who has been alive for four days. But hey, I'll oblige anyways: Deklein sees some barge kills often. When you consider how awful mining is right now in nullsec, this is quite a lot! e: bbcode is hard
So you live in an area about 10x safer to mine than in The Forge. https://zkillboard.com/region/10000002/group/463/
Nullsec mining = Less risk and soon to be more reward |
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
534
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 06:17:47 -
[432] - Quote
Keep digging that hole-
Here, let me help you out. How many more factors of ore is mined in The Forge than in Deklein?
Hint: more than 10x |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
587
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 07:15:09 -
[433] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:Here, let me help you out. How many more factors of ore is mined in The Forge than in Deklein? That is simply because farming other PVE activities in null sec, such as combat anoms, is easier, less risky and, as Querns points out, far more profitable than mining. And, why bother mining when you are rich enough from other PVE sources to afford to buy minerals in high sec and pay to ship them out to null sec?
As for those few poor Goons who got themselves popped mining in Deklein... they are obviouslly part of the group which Querns rightly labeled as "a wide buffet of folks in space without significant 'street smarts.'" They probably all got popped in high sec by the CODE before joining the Goons... lol. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2323
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 08:13:09 -
[434] - Quote
Sure, picking the single most populated region in the game and comparing it to any area in null, the volume of kills will be different. But then you realize, that with the number of people in that highsec region, its a bit less isk lost per capita than the aforementioned nullsec region.
So, divide the total loss in isk by number of losses. Nullsec residents are losing 40mil more per loss than highsec residents. So theres that too.
Also, it doesn't really matter how safe the players make it. I imagine if highsec worked together and invested like nullsec, they too, would achieve paradise. |
Simon Alfrir
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 09:17:42 -
[435] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Sure, picking the single most populated region in the game and comparing it to any area in null, the volume of kills will be different. But then you realize, that with the number of people in that highsec region, its a bit less isk lost per capita than the aforementioned nullsec region. So, divide the total loss in isk by number of losses. Nullsec residents are losing 40mil more per loss than highsec residents. So theres that too. Also, it doesn't really matter how safe the players make it. I imagine if highsec worked together and invested like nullsec, they too, would achieve paradise.
Much more money is lost from mining in Highsec than in Null. That's what the killlboard is showing.
There are more miners in Highsec therefore more people are being hurt than helped by this change.
There is no added game play value (miners need not apply to your Null corps).
No one in this thread has demonstrated why these changes are needed. Answer: The changes aren't needed. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2324
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 09:51:34 -
[436] - Quote
Simon Alfrir wrote:Much more money is lost from mining in Highsec than in Null. That's what the killlboard is showing. maybe you need to look at more than just 'this number is bigger than that one. Its not surprising that highsecs massive population (3-4x greater than null iirc) would have more lost from mining barges by volume. It's expected since there are so many more miners in null. What we were comparing is the relative safety, which is far more skewed toward nullsec being the least safe.
Simon Alfrir wrote:There are more miners in Highsec therefore more people are being hurt than helped by this change.
There is no added game play value (miners need not apply to your Null corps).
No one in this thread has demonstrated why these changes are needed. Answer: The changes aren't needed. If you really havent bothered to read the dozens of responses as to why the change is needed, I doubt repeating them to you again is going to make you actually read them.
As to hurting more players, just because one group of players is benefitting off the lack of gameplay from another group doesn't justify keeping the status quo.
Or, of course, we could drivel down the path of only doing what the majority of players want and just toss out any kind of gameplay implications.
Hell, since all those miners in highsec seem to be what we balance the entire game around, why don't we remove barge ganking? Or, better yet, increase the refine rate of highsec stations to surpass nullsec, since its only fair to the greater population. |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
587
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 09:56:28 -
[437] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Hell, since all those miners in highsec seem to be what we balance the entire game around, why don't we remove barge ganking? Or, better yet, increase the refine rate of highsec stations to surpass nullsec, since its only fair to the greater population. I'm sure that the high sec miners will be happy to hear that null sec players, such as yourself, are finally admitting this is what CCP really should be doing in order to balance and improve the game.
+1 |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1611
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 10:02:35 -
[438] - Quote
Simon Alfrir wrote: No one in this thread has demonstrated why these changes are needed. Answer: The changes aren't needed.
Easy:
CCP Fozzie wrote: These changes are intended to make Nullsec more self sufficient then it is currently.
Right now nullsec is reliant on JFs to have anything. CCP wants it to be less so.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6714
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 11:41:11 -
[439] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Rowells wrote:Hell, since all those miners in highsec seem to be what we balance the entire game around, why don't we remove barge ganking? Or, better yet, increase the refine rate of highsec stations to surpass nullsec, since its only fair to the greater population. I'm sure that the high sec miners will be happy to hear that null sec players, such as yourself, are finally admitting this is what CCP really should be doing in order to balance and improve the game. +1 Giving in to highsec, and giving to highsec is what it is all about
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1611
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 12:53:27 -
[440] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Rowells wrote:Hell, since all those miners in highsec seem to be what we balance the entire game around, why don't we remove barge ganking? Or, better yet, increase the refine rate of highsec stations to surpass nullsec, since its only fair to the greater population. I'm sure that the high sec miners will be happy to hear that null sec players, such as yourself, are finally admitting this is what CCP really should be doing in order to balance and improve the game. +1 Man, talk about things that would negatively affect the sacred cow of "highsec miner isk/hr" GÇö turning highsec into a risk free theme park would drop lowends to the minimum possible price faster than the OP's changes ever would.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
|
Dentia Caecus
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 13:12:20 -
[441] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We're very interested to hear from miners, nullsec industrialists and prospective nullsec industrialists. Let us know how you view these changes and how you would like to see them changed to better meet your needs. Thanks!
It has been approximately a week since this post was created. Do the devs have any feedback? |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1707
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 13:20:05 -
[442] - Quote
Querns wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Rowells wrote:Hell, since all those miners in highsec seem to be what we balance the entire game around, why don't we remove barge ganking? Or, better yet, increase the refine rate of highsec stations to surpass nullsec, since its only fair to the greater population. I'm sure that the high sec miners will be happy to hear that null sec players, such as yourself, are finally admitting this is what CCP really should be doing in order to balance and improve the game. +1 Man, talk about things that would negatively affect the sacred cow of "highsec miner isk/hr" GÇö turning highsec into a risk free theme park would drop lowends to the minimum possible price faster than the OP's changes ever would.
It's be fun to see what would happen but I bet the economy would not take it too well... Selling ore/minerals to NPC buy orders if they become the best price would be odd... |
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
12648
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 14:03:45 -
[443] - Quote
Hey everyone. After reading through the feedback so far we've made some tweaks to the compositions of the Anoms. Now the ratios between different minerals have more variance from anom type to anom type, so that nullsec groups will be able to take advantage of the choice of different anoms to get slightly different mineral ratios. For instance, under the new numbers the Mediums have extra Mexallon so if you find you're low on Mex you can mine out some mediums.
The OP has been updated.
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/
|
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1611
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 14:17:32 -
[444] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. After reading through the feedback so far we've made some tweaks to the compositions of the Anoms. Now the ratios between different minerals have more variance from anom type to anom type, so that nullsec groups will be able to take advantage of the choice of different anoms to get slightly different mineral ratios. For instance, under the new numbers the Mediums have extra Mexallon so if you find you're low on Mex you can mine out some mediums.
The OP has been updated. Good move lowering the ark/bist composition of small sites. This should help out the imbalance even more, as this is most likely the anom that is seen and is mined the most, due to its lowest barrier of entry.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1102
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 14:22:03 -
[445] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Simon Alfrir wrote:Much more money is lost from mining in Highsec than in Null. That's what the killlboard is showing. maybe you need to look at more than just 'this number is bigger than that one. Its not surprising that highsecs massive population (3-4x greater than null iirc) would have more lost from mining barges by volume. It's expected since there are so many more miners in null. What we were comparing is the relative safety, which is far more skewed toward nullsec being the least safe. Simon Alfrir wrote:There are more miners in Highsec therefore more people are being hurt than helped by this change.
There is no added game play value (miners need not apply to your Null corps).
No one in this thread has demonstrated why these changes are needed. Answer: The changes aren't needed. If you really havent bothered to read the dozens of responses as to why the change is needed, I doubt repeating them to you again is going to make you actually read them. As to hurting more players, just because one group of players is benefitting off the lack of gameplay from another group doesn't justify keeping the status quo. Or, of course, we could drivel down the path of only doing what the majority of players want and just toss out any kind of gameplay implications. Hell, since all those miners in highsec seem to be what we balance the entire game around, why don't we remove barge ganking? Or, better yet, increase the refine rate of highsec stations to surpass nullsec, since its only fair to the greater population.
I'm trying to take a balanced view on these changes since it doesn't affect me so muchin the areas I operate. I am uncomfortable with this change as it seems geared towards making life easier for those in null at the expense of players in other areas. I always thought players wnating things to be 'easier' in EvE was scoffed at but in this case it seems not.
My impression was that EvE was balanced around the much vaunted economy and the interplay between the 'destructors' and 'Makers', not the ease in which the richest area of the game can make more ISK. Making changes that benefit one area at the expense of another is always going to be risky, doing so in such an overty anti-hisec way even moreso.
Will we see a similar change that begins to spawn high end rocks in low amount in hisec? This would be good for explorers to hunt down, lucky miners to hit the odd payday, gankers to stake out. If one area is to be made more self sufficient then all must be in some way. Make it so that being self sufficient requires effort, with effort scaling inverse linear with risk.
We'll see how this shakes out but it doesn't strike me as a fair or reasonable change to favour one area. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1611
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 14:23:37 -
[446] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Will we see a similar change that begins to spawn high end rocks in low amount in hisec? This would be good for explorers to hunt down, lucky miners to hit the odd payday, gankers to stake out. If one area is to be made more self sufficient then all must be in some way. Make it so that being self sufficient requires effort, with effort scaling inverse linear with risk.
This already happens -- the sites are called "wormholes."
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1611
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 14:39:28 -
[447] - Quote
CCP Fozzie -- I had heard mention of the mining requirement for maintaining an industrial index being lowered for Sov 5.0. Is this something you're still considering, and if so, would it be for this patch, or the Sov 5.0 patch?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1102
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 14:41:53 -
[448] - Quote
Querns wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Will we see a similar change that begins to spawn high end rocks in low amount in hisec? This would be good for explorers to hunt down, lucky miners to hit the odd payday, gankers to stake out. If one area is to be made more self sufficient then all must be in some way. Make it so that being self sufficient requires effort, with effort scaling inverse linear with risk.
This already happens -- the sites are called "wormholes."
And that means using 2 areas and is therefore not self sufficient. My point being that if you make null more self sufficient then you should make balanced changes to make all areas self sufficient to greater or lesser degrees. I could just as easily point out to null players that for trit the best place is called 'hisec'. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1611
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 14:53:33 -
[449] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Querns wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Will we see a similar change that begins to spawn high end rocks in low amount in hisec? This would be good for explorers to hunt down, lucky miners to hit the odd payday, gankers to stake out. If one area is to be made more self sufficient then all must be in some way. Make it so that being self sufficient requires effort, with effort scaling inverse linear with risk.
This already happens -- the sites are called "wormholes." And that means using 2 areas and is therefore not self sufficient. My point being that if you make null more self sufficient then you should make balanced changes to make all areas self sufficient to greater or lesser degrees. I could just as easily point out to null players that for trit the best place is called 'hisec'. So, in order for something to count as "self-sufficient," you can't take one jump into a wormhole to get what you want? Do you think that everything required to build stuff should be available in one system?
The joke about this conversation is that highsec has never been self-sufficient for minerals, ever. The fact that highends were swirling around in a financial toilet only masked this fact. Even with 400 isk zydrine and 650 isk megacyte, those minerals, by and large, came from nullsec. This is a deliberate game design decision; one of the oldest there is.
Conversely, nullsec was never designed to be so beholden to highsec for its materiel. The fact that it currently is has come about due to emergent gameplay and the ruthless optimization by players to combat the tyranny of distance from Empire. Making nullsec more self-sufficient improves the quality of life for a significant swathe of nullsec, especially those in the south and east, whose logistics are markedly difficult (and about to get a lot worse.)
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Shadow of xXDEATHXx
179
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 15:02:37 -
[450] - Quote
Fozzy im not seeing that much variance between the belts...
the figures I have in the pic are max possible refine (tier 3 minmatar, max skills, +4 implant)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/09f8xcee00ys4ta/ores.jpg?dl=0
as you can see, the variance between mineral per m3 after the small belt is almost identical for every belt.
if you were to make it so one belt provided more, the small would stay as it is. the large would need mex to be 200% the xl put nocxium at 20 to 30% the xxl should have the greater highends to make it more valuable, say 8% zydrine and 4% mega.
as it is. the belt that everyone is going to mine is the small, because it has the highest % of all the lowends |
|
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1053
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 15:04:44 -
[451] - Quote
Ncc 1709 wrote:Fozzy im not seeing that much variance between the belts... the figures I have in the pic are max possible refine (tier 3 minmatar, max skills, +4 implant) https://www.dropbox.com/s/09f8xcee00ys4ta/ores.jpg?dl=0 as you can see, the variance between mineral per m3 after the small belt is almost identical for every belt. if you were to make it so one belt provided more, the small would stay as it is. the large would need mex to be 200% the xl put nocxium at 20 to 30% the xxl should have the greater highends to make it more valuable, say 8% zydrine and 4% mega. as it is. the belt that everyone is going to mine is the small, because it has the highest % of all the lowends uh, that entirely depends on if the miner wants lowends or highends which largely depends on if this is successful in undoing the highend glut |
Mario Putzo
1197
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 15:07:17 -
[452] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. After reading through the feedback so far we've made some tweaks to the compositions of the Anoms. Now the ratios between different minerals have more variance from anom type to anom type, so that nullsec groups will be able to take advantage of the choice of different anoms to get slightly different mineral ratios. For instance, under the new numbers the Mediums have extra Mexallon so if you find you're low on Mex you can mine out some mediums.
The OP has been updated.
Sounds good, so when are LS and HS going to be absolved of having to import from NS? I mean thats the name of the game now right self sufficiency? No more needing to import/export, no more need to take what your neighbor has and give nothing back?
I can expect to see HS and LS anoms with ABC ore in them ya? I mean, in HS I have no access to Zydrine or Megacyte...why should I have to import from NS, and not vice versa?
Pretty huge difference:
NS: We don't produce much because we DONT mine the material available to us. LS+HS: We don't produce much because we CANT mine the material we need.
Fun fact, NS mining/production has always been more profitable than HS, people don't do it in NS, because they don't want to live in NS....these changes are not going to change anyones mindset about that. Seems really really redundant from that viewpoint...and largely hypocritical to say one region of space should be self sufficient, while others are forced into a greater dependency on that region.
HS+LS ABC anoms please.
*disclaimer I think the changes here are great, and i am all for NS being more self sufficient, but that should also be extended to ALL areas of space, not just NS. |
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Shadow of xXDEATHXx
179
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 15:10:12 -
[453] - Quote
people who say nullsec mining doesn't happen don't live in nullsec.
I updated my previous post with a better pic. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1611
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 15:10:24 -
[454] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote: Sounds good, so when are LS and HS going to be absolved of having to import from NS? I mean thats the name of the game now right self sufficiency? No more needing to import/export, no more need to take what your neighbor has and give nothing back?
I can expect to see HS and LS anoms with ABC ore in them ya? I mean, in HS I have no access to Zydrine or Megacyte...why should I have to import from NS, and not vice versa?
Pretty huge difference:
NS: We don't produce much because we DONT mine the material available to us. LS+HS: We don't produce much because we CANT mine the material we need.
Fun fact, NS mining/production has always been more profitable than HS, people don't do it in NS, because they don't want to live in NS....these changes are not going to change anyones mindset about that. Seems really really redundant from that viewpoint...and largely hypocritical to say one region of space should be self sufficient, while others are forced into a greater dependency on that region.
HS+LS ABC anoms please.
You've made the fundamental mistake of thinking that Eve is fair.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Mario Putzo
1197
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 15:13:53 -
[455] - Quote
Querns wrote:Mario Putzo wrote: Sounds good, so when are LS and HS going to be absolved of having to import from NS? I mean thats the name of the game now right self sufficiency? No more needing to import/export, no more need to take what your neighbor has and give nothing back?
I can expect to see HS and LS anoms with ABC ore in them ya? I mean, in HS I have no access to Zydrine or Megacyte...why should I have to import from NS, and not vice versa?
Pretty huge difference:
NS: We don't produce much because we DONT mine the material available to us. LS+HS: We don't produce much because we CANT mine the material we need.
Fun fact, NS mining/production has always been more profitable than HS, people don't do it in NS, because they don't want to live in NS....these changes are not going to change anyones mindset about that. Seems really really redundant from that viewpoint...and largely hypocritical to say one region of space should be self sufficient, while others are forced into a greater dependency on that region.
HS+LS ABC anoms please.
You've made the fundamental mistake of thinking that Eve is fair.
And yet here we are in a thread about making EVE more fair for 1 of 4 regions of space. Ironic isn't it. NS complains about lowends , CCP addresses concerns, "YAY BRAVO CCP". HS complains about lack of highend access "SHUT UP PUBBIE EVE ISNT FAIR." |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1611
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 15:14:44 -
[456] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Querns wrote:Mario Putzo wrote: Sounds good, so when are LS and HS going to be absolved of having to import from NS? I mean thats the name of the game now right self sufficiency? No more needing to import/export, no more need to take what your neighbor has and give nothing back?
I can expect to see HS and LS anoms with ABC ore in them ya? I mean, in HS I have no access to Zydrine or Megacyte...why should I have to import from NS, and not vice versa?
Pretty huge difference:
NS: We don't produce much because we DONT mine the material available to us. LS+HS: We don't produce much because we CANT mine the material we need.
Fun fact, NS mining/production has always been more profitable than HS, people don't do it in NS, because they don't want to live in NS....these changes are not going to change anyones mindset about that. Seems really really redundant from that viewpoint...and largely hypocritical to say one region of space should be self sufficient, while others are forced into a greater dependency on that region.
HS+LS ABC anoms please.
You've made the fundamental mistake of thinking that Eve is fair. And yet here we are in a thread about making EVE more fair for 1 of 4 regions of space. Ironic isn't it. NS complains about lowends , CCP addresses concerns, "YAY BRAVO CCP". HS complains about lack of highend access "SHUT UP PUBBIE EVE ISNT FAIR." The change doesn't make nullsec more fair, it makes nullsec more self-sufficient.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Mario Putzo
1197
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 15:16:17 -
[457] - Quote
Querns wrote: The change doesn't make nullsec more fair, it makes nullsec more self-sufficient.
Which is exactly what I just said they should do for HS and LS, and you said "EVE isn't fair." |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1611
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 15:17:57 -
[458] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Querns wrote: The change doesn't make nullsec more fair, it makes nullsec more self-sufficient.
Which is exactly what I just said they should do for HS and LS, and you said "EVE isn't fair." Because it isn't. The change helps nullsec the most, gives a token boost for lowsec, and does nothing to highsec. This is not fair, nor is it intended to be. Regions of space do not exist nor are supposed to exist in perfect balance. If they did, there would be no L4 missions or highsec incursions in highsec.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1053
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 15:17:58 -
[459] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. After reading through the feedback so far we've made some tweaks to the compositions of the Anoms. Now the ratios between different minerals have more variance from anom type to anom type, so that nullsec groups will be able to take advantage of the choice of different anoms to get slightly different mineral ratios. For instance, under the new numbers the Mediums have extra Mexallon so if you find you're low on Mex you can mine out some mediums.
The OP has been updated. Sounds good, so when are LS and HS going to be absolved of having to import from NS? when the highends that go into a battleship take an equal amount of space as trit does
"oh woe is me, my need to import a single blockade runner worth of stuff every year is the same as nullsec needing multiple jump freighters per day for the same production chain" |
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Shadow of xXDEATHXx
179
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 15:18:23 -
[460] - Quote
Why should the people who work the least to get the anomaly belts get the best yields from it??
https://www.dropbox.com/s/s1pd703om7e9n03/ores2.jpg?dl=0 |
|
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1053
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 15:19:27 -
[461] - Quote
what kind of idiot thinks mineral prices will stay the same given these changes? |
Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1446
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 15:19:36 -
[462] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote: And yet here we are in a thread about making EVE more fair for 1 of 4 regions of space. Ironic isn't it. NS complains about lowends , CCP addresses concerns, "YAY BRAVO CCP". HS complains about lack of highend access "SHUT UP PUBBIE EVE ISNT FAIR."
I might be ever so slightly more sympathetic if CCP had not openly stated that the days of 10LY range of jump freighters are numbered.
Complaining that nullsec should continue to be dependent on highsec for lowends even once CCP makes that impossible is "unlikely" at even my most charitable, and "batshit crazy" on my normal level of concern for your sensitivities. |
Hendrink Collie
Steel Fleet Gentlemen's.Club
15
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 15:20:09 -
[463] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Querns wrote: The change doesn't make nullsec more fair, it makes nullsec more self-sufficient.
Which is exactly what I just said they should do for HS and LS, and you said "EVE isn't fair."
Wait, why should HS + LS get more lucrative ores even though... espically in high-sec's case, whe there is a lot less risk involved in the process of mining the ore. With risk, there comes reward, and null-sec is a lot more risky than high-sec unless you are hauling 3b+ worth of junk in a charon. CCP wants people to risk more to get more, not the other way around. |
Mario Putzo
1197
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 15:24:13 -
[464] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. After reading through the feedback so far we've made some tweaks to the compositions of the Anoms. Now the ratios between different minerals have more variance from anom type to anom type, so that nullsec groups will be able to take advantage of the choice of different anoms to get slightly different mineral ratios. For instance, under the new numbers the Mediums have extra Mexallon so if you find you're low on Mex you can mine out some mediums.
The OP has been updated. Sounds good, so when are LS and HS going to be absolved of having to import from NS? when the highends that go into a battleship take an equal amount of space as trit does "oh woe is me, my need to import a single blockade runner worth of stuff every year is the same as nullsec needing multiple jump freighters per day for the same production chain"
But NS has access to tons of trit, its not my fault or CCPs fault people simply DONT mine it. Its easier to just buy in bulk in HS already broken down, compressed yada yada. Still does not change the fact TRIT has always been available in large supply to NS folks...they just don't mine it. (probably because mining is god awful boring).
Main difference, again for the folks who obviously DONT read either, is that HS CANT mine for megacyte in any capacity. The only source for Megacyte in HS and LS is gun mining.
CANT and DONT are two very different words. You should look them up in a dictionary sometime. |
Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1446
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 15:25:43 -
[465] - Quote
Hendrink Collie wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Querns wrote: The change doesn't make nullsec more fair, it makes nullsec more self-sufficient.
Which is exactly what I just said they should do for HS and LS, and you said "EVE isn't fair." Wait, why should HS + LS get more lucrative ores even though... espically in high-sec's case, whe there is a lot less risk involved in the process of mining the ore. With risk, there comes reward, and null-sec is a lot more risky than high-sec unless you are hauling 3b+ worth of junk in a charon. CCP wants people to risk more to get more, not the other way around.
Didn't you get the memo? It's so safe in nullsec and so lucrative to mine that it's horribly unfair, despite all the effort and isk and time that goes into obtaining, upgrading, and protecting it. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1611
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 15:26:03 -
[466] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote: But NS has access to tons of trit
This is incorrect.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1053
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 15:26:06 -
[467] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote: But NS has access to tons of trit, its not my fault or CCPs fault people simply DONT mine it. Its easier to just buy in bulk in HS already broken down, compressed yada yada. Still does not change the fact TRIT has always been available in large supply to NS folks...they just don't mine it. (probably because mining is god awful boring).
Main difference, again for the folks who obviously DONT read either, is that HS CANT mine for megacyte in any capacity. The only source for Megacyte in HS and LS is gun mining.
CANT and DONT are two very different words. You should look them up in a dictionary sometime.
this entire post is basically "i know i'm completely wrong and can't support my argument in any sensible way so i'm going to try to debate pointless details in the hope that someone thinks they're relevant" |
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
12652
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 15:27:39 -
[468] - Quote
No area of space is intended to be fully self sufficient. These changes will not make any area of space fully self sufficient, nor should they.
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/
|
|
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1053
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 15:27:49 -
[469] - Quote
"you see, if you ignore all sensible ways of thinking and instead adopt reasoning so stupid even the dimmest of bulbs don't reach for it unless it's literally the only thing that gets you to the result you want, then the situation becomes somewhat ambiguious. let us all debate things according to my obviously pointless approach and hope that people forget how to think"
if an activity is possible in a cosmic sense and pointless, that is irrelevant in a game |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
115
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 15:28:50 -
[470] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:No area of space is intended to be fully self sufficient. These changes will not make any area of space fully self sufficient, nor should they.
NICE REGION, WE'LL TAKE IT!
Upgraded Ore Anomalies are all uniform, however.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1611
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 15:35:55 -
[471] - Quote
GankYou wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:No area of space is intended to be fully self sufficient. These changes will not make any area of space fully self sufficient, nor should they. NICE REGION, WE'LL TAKE IT! Upgraded Ore Anomalies are all uniform, however. Nah. Truesec plays a part in giving you boosted anoms with +5% and +10% variants.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1053
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 15:36:09 -
[472] - Quote
GankYou wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:No area of space is intended to be fully self sufficient. These changes will not make any area of space fully self sufficient, nor should they. NICE REGION, WE'LL TAKE IT! Upgraded Ore Anomalies are all uniform, however. they vary based on truesec (better trusec gets +5% or +10% versions) |
Mario Putzo
1197
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 15:38:01 -
[473] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:No area of space is intended to be fully self sufficient. These changes will not make any area of space fully self sufficient, nor should they.
Except they do just that. Assuming of course NS folks actually learns where the undock button is while sitting in Mining vessels.
Might I ask, what is the actual intended purpose of these changes then? If not to make NS more self sufficient, at the obvious cost to LS and HS regions?
edit and if these changes do not make NS fully self sufficient (which they don't) why can we not also have anoms available in HS and LS that have ore with Megacyte and Zydrine? It won't make them fully self sufficient, but it will decrease the dependency on NS importing...which is as far as I can tell the whole point of the changes to NS ore, less requirement to import from HS/LS. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1102
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 15:41:59 -
[474] - Quote
These threads on ore and structures are getting a bit hard to keep up with. It could be time to consolidate feedback and unsticky them, with new ones in place based on the current position in development. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1611
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 15:42:29 -
[475] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:No area of space is intended to be fully self sufficient. These changes will not make any area of space fully self sufficient, nor should they. Except they do just that. Assuming of course NS folks actually learns where the undock button is while sitting in Mining vessels. Might I ask, what is the actual intended purpose of these changes then? If not to make NS more self sufficient, at the obvious cost to LS and HS regions? "more" does not equal "fully."
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
6048
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 15:45:14 -
[476] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:No area of space is intended to be fully self sufficient. These changes will not make any area of space fully self sufficient, nor should they. Except they do just that. Assuming of course NS folks actually learns where the undock button is while sitting in Mining vessels. Might I ask, what is the actual intended purpose of these changes then? If not to make NS more self sufficient, at the obvious cost to LS and HS regions?
Weren't you just pontificating about the differences between don't and can't? There is also a difference between "More" self-sufficient and "fully" self-sufficient.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all.
|
Dersen Lowery
Drinking in Station
1552
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 15:45:22 -
[477] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:and if these changes do not make NS fully self sufficient (which they don't) why can we not also have anoms available in HS and LS that have ore with Megacyte and Zydrine? It won't make them fully self sufficient, but it will decrease the dependency on NS importing...which is as far as I can tell the whole point of the changes to NS ore, less requirement to import from HS/LS.
Do you have a better idea for weaning nullsec off Jita?
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
I voted in CSM X!
|
Mario Putzo
1197
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 15:47:02 -
[478] - Quote
Querns wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:No area of space is intended to be fully self sufficient. These changes will not make any area of space fully self sufficient, nor should they. Except they do just that. Assuming of course NS folks actually learns where the undock button is while sitting in Mining vessels. Might I ask, what is the actual intended purpose of these changes then? If not to make NS more self sufficient, at the obvious cost to LS and HS regions? "more" does not equal "fully."
No ****?
Its a good thing I never said NS was fully self sufficient then, otherwise Id look like a boob.
All I am asking is, if NS can get changes that reduce their dependency on HS, why can HS also not receive changes that reduce dependency on NS?
Fun fact...some folks just don't want to live and operate in NS, just as some folks don't want to live and operate in HS. If changing ores in NS increases self sufficiency without making them fully self sufficient, then adding Highend mineral sources to HS and LS will result in the exact same, more self sufficiency, but not full self sufficiency. |
Mario Putzo
1197
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 15:50:57 -
[479] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:and if these changes do not make NS fully self sufficient (which they don't) why can we not also have anoms available in HS and LS that have ore with Megacyte and Zydrine? It won't make them fully self sufficient, but it will decrease the dependency on NS importing...which is as far as I can tell the whole point of the changes to NS ore, less requirement to import from HS/LS. Do you have a better idea for weaning nullsec off Jita?
I do actually.
Make LS the primary source for all Low End minerals, and High End moon goos.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1611
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 15:52:01 -
[480] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Querns wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:No area of space is intended to be fully self sufficient. These changes will not make any area of space fully self sufficient, nor should they. Except they do just that. Assuming of course NS folks actually learns where the undock button is while sitting in Mining vessels. Might I ask, what is the actual intended purpose of these changes then? If not to make NS more self sufficient, at the obvious cost to LS and HS regions? "more" does not equal "fully." No ****? Its a good thing I never said NS was fully self sufficient then, otherwise Id look like a boob. Considering that you said "Except they do just that" to CCP Fozzie's statement "These changes will not make any area of space fully self-sufficient," I can only conclude that you are moving the goalposts.
Also, one can make nullsec more self-sufficient without a commensurate increase of self-sufficiency in other parts of the game. Remember, Eve is not fair.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1102
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 15:52:15 -
[481] - Quote
I'm thinking I'd have preferred ore in losec to be buffed. This would have put losec in the centre of ore trade between hi and null and boosted losec population potentially. |
Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1447
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 16:03:34 -
[482] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:I'm thinking I'd have preferred ore in losec to be buffed. This would have put losec in the centre of ore trade between hi and null and boosted losec population potentially.
That does absolutely nothing to solve the issue that the change was made to help with.
Unless it being in lowsec magically manages to let to teleport to the outside rim of EVE without passing through the intervening space.
This is not a "We need to nerf highsec mining and we shall do it by buffing nullsec mining" change. This is a "We need to buff nullsec mining to avoid major fallout with the new sov system" change.
Putting low end buffed ore in lowsec but not null would do nothing to help the livability of the outer regions. |
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Shadow of xXDEATHXx
179
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 16:06:13 -
[483] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:I'm thinking I'd have preferred ore in losec to be buffed. This would have put losec in the centre of ore trade between hi and null and boosted losec population potentially. nullsec ores were buffed.... |
Mario Putzo
1197
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 16:10:26 -
[484] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:[quote=Corraidhin Farsaidh] Putting low end buffed ore in lowsec but not null would do nothing to help the livability of the outer regions.
Thats to bad. Fight and take space closer to Lowsec if you want easier access to the minerals. Risk/Reward and all that right? If you live in the ass end of space you are much safer than living in high traffic space...think of all the time you will have to mine even your limited resources 30 jumps away from anyone who gives a rats ass about your colony in Omist. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1611
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 16:17:31 -
[485] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Anhenka wrote: Putting low end buffed ore in lowsec but not null would do nothing to help the livability of the outer regions.
Thats to bad. Fight and take space closer to Lowsec if you want easier access to the minerals. Risk/Reward and all that right? If you live in the ass end of space you are much safer than living in high traffic space...think of all the time you will have to mine even your limited resources 30 jumps away from anyone who gives a rats ass about your colony in Omist. You really are a teeming little ball of rancor, aren't you?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Mario Putzo
1197
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 16:25:34 -
[486] - Quote
Querns wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Anhenka wrote: Putting low end buffed ore in lowsec but not null would do nothing to help the livability of the outer regions.
Thats to bad. Fight and take space closer to Lowsec if you want easier access to the minerals. Risk/Reward and all that right? If you live in the ass end of space you are much safer than living in high traffic space...think of all the time you will have to mine even your limited resources 30 jumps away from anyone who gives a rats ass about your colony in Omist. You really are a teeming little ball of rancor, aren't you?
"I have no counter argument to your position, so I am just going to attack your character instead" |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1611
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 16:27:38 -
[487] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Querns wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Anhenka wrote: Putting low end buffed ore in lowsec but not null would do nothing to help the livability of the outer regions.
Thats to bad. Fight and take space closer to Lowsec if you want easier access to the minerals. Risk/Reward and all that right? If you live in the ass end of space you are much safer than living in high traffic space...think of all the time you will have to mine even your limited resources 30 jumps away from anyone who gives a rats ass about your colony in Omist. You really are a teeming little ball of rancor, aren't you? "I have no counter argument to your position, so I am just going to attack your character instead" If you made arguments instead of tantrum-induced apoplexy, you'd have a point.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1447
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 16:29:35 -
[488] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:"I have no counter argument to your position, so I am just going to attack your character instead" Our "position" is that CCP has stated their intended goal:
"Make nullsec more independent from highsec in terms of t1 production"
And their change to accomplish that:
"Buff nullsec anomalies to provide greater amounts of lowends and fewer highends"
Our position is CCP's positions.
We don't need to convince you of ****. If you want it changed, you need to supply reasons and explanations for CCP so that they might change their mind. |
Dersen Lowery
Drinking in Station
1552
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 16:30:31 -
[489] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Thats to bad. Fight and take space closer to Jita if you want easier access to the minerals. Risk/Reward and all that right? If you live in the ass end of space you are much safer than living in high traffic space...think of all the time you will have to mine even your limited resources 30 jumps away from anyone who gives a rats ass about your colony in Omist.
FTFY.
So, just one little word away from the current status quo, and what a little word it is: People actually mine in The Forge. There was, I think, one guy who mined in low sec, and Noizy just moved into Thera. It's probably safer to mine there.
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
I voted in CSM X!
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
116
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 16:36:36 -
[490] - Quote
Querns wrote:GankYou wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:No area of space is intended to be fully self sufficient. These changes will not make any area of space fully self sufficient, nor should they. NICE REGION, WE'LL TAKE IT! Upgraded Ore Anomalies are all uniform, however. Nah. Truesec plays a part in giving you boosted anoms with +5% and +10% variants.
That's cool.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
|
Mario Putzo
1198
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 16:43:08 -
[491] - Quote
Querns wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Querns wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Anhenka wrote: Putting low end buffed ore in lowsec but not null would do nothing to help the livability of the outer regions.
Thats to bad. Fight and take space closer to Lowsec if you want easier access to the minerals. Risk/Reward and all that right? If you live in the ass end of space you are much safer than living in high traffic space...think of all the time you will have to mine even your limited resources 30 jumps away from anyone who gives a rats ass about your colony in Omist. You really are a teeming little ball of rancor, aren't you? "I have no counter argument to your position, so I am just going to attack your character instead" If you made arguments instead of tantrum-induced apoplexy, you'd have a point.
Right because asking for some HS and LS anoms that spawn Highend yielding Ore is tantrum induced apoplexy. You haven't really read anything I posted have you? Other than the lines you chose to cherry pick.
Fun fact, i am not arguing against the changes which is probably why you don't think im making any arguments (because im not), I think they are good changes (not ideal imo but good)...I would just like to see Highends available to LS and HS in a limited quantity as well, because the changes to getting stuff from HS>NS are going to work inversely as well, it is not an argument. It is a suggestion.
Now if you have any actual argument as to why seeding anoms in HS and LS is bad, other than "EVE isn't Fair" or the good ol' Risk/Reward crutch, ill happily discuss it with you. But if you aren't going to post with any real sincerity, why should I bother responding to you (or others like you) with any real sincerity.
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
116
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 16:52:34 -
[492] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:the good ol' Risk/Reward crutch
I think you are running out of sensible arguments.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1611
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 16:53:21 -
[493] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote: Right because asking for some HS and LS anoms that spawn Highend yielding Ore is tantrum induced apoplexy. You haven't really read anything I posted have you? Other than the lines you chose to cherry pick.
Fun fact, i am not arguing against the changes which is probably why you don't think im making any arguments (because im not), I think they are good changes (not ideal imo but good)...I would just like to see Highends available to LS and HS in a limited quantity as well, because the changes to getting stuff from HS>NS are going to work inversely as well, it is not an argument. It is a suggestion.
Now if you have any actual argument as to why seeding anoms in HS and LS is bad, other than "EVE isn't Fair" or the good ol' Risk/Reward crutch, ill happily discuss it with you. But if you aren't going to post with any real sincerity, why should I bother responding to you (or others like you) with any real sincerity.
Sure, I can list several.
- The number of highends required to do manufacturing is so small that seeding them in highsec would cause the price to drop to the floor, making them utterly worthless.
- Removing the only unique mining product from nullsec would cause nullsec mining to become completely worthless. This has negative effects for Sov 5.0, player density, and availability of "food" for PVPers.
- Doing so would make highsec completely self-sufficient for T1 production, which goes against the Day 1 design philosophy, as well as CCP Fozzie's stated intentions.
- JF dependency for nullsec would skyrocket due to highsec's superior acquisition costs, which is markedly against CCP's desires for nullsec.
The thing you don't seem to get is that highsec and nullsec can be tuned independently from each other. Buffing one area does not necessitate a buff in the other area, nor does a nerf in one area require a nerf to the other. This is not the iconic dream scene from Lorenzo's Oil. If this was even remotely the case, highsec incursions would have been castrated a long time ago.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1611
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 16:56:51 -
[494] - Quote
Basically, it's okay if nullsec gets an advantage. Truly, it's fine.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Hendrink Collie
Steel Fleet Gentlemen's.Club
15
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 16:57:47 -
[495] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Now if you have any actual argument as to why seeding anoms in HS and LS is bad, other than "EVE isn't Fair" or the good ol' Risk/Reward crutch, ill happily discuss it with you. But if you aren't going to post with any real sincerity, why should I bother responding to you (or others like you) with any real sincerity.
But the Risk/Reward crutch is exactly why it exist. Why should someone in a .9 system be able to mine ABC rocks? If that was the case, everyone would just be better off mining in high-sec, which for the longest time is what most people did anyways until the recent changes in Phoebe and now this patch changed things. There needs to be a sufficient carrot for people to do mining activities in null sec, and these changes really help. However, if a similar carrot was also given to high-sec anoms, then most people would just resume doing their mining activities in highsec, like pre-phoebe. High-sec doesn't need another boost. |
Mario Putzo
1198
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 17:08:34 -
[496] - Quote
Querns wrote:Mario Putzo wrote: Right because asking for some HS and LS anoms that spawn Highend yielding Ore is tantrum induced apoplexy. You haven't really read anything I posted have you? Other than the lines you chose to cherry pick.
Fun fact, i am not arguing against the changes which is probably why you don't think im making any arguments (because im not), I think they are good changes (not ideal imo but good)...I would just like to see Highends available to LS and HS in a limited quantity as well, because the changes to getting stuff from HS>NS are going to work inversely as well, it is not an argument. It is a suggestion.
Now if you have any actual argument as to why seeding anoms in HS and LS is bad, other than "EVE isn't Fair" or the good ol' Risk/Reward crutch, ill happily discuss it with you. But if you aren't going to post with any real sincerity, why should I bother responding to you (or others like you) with any real sincerity.
Sure, I can list several.
- The number of highends required to do manufacturing is so small that seeding them in highsec would cause the price to drop to the floor, making them utterly worthless.
- Removing the only unique mining product from nullsec would cause nullsec mining to become completely worthless. This has negative effects for Sov 5.0, player density, and availability of "food" for PVPers.
- Doing so would make highsec completely self-sufficient for T1 production, which goes against the Day 1 design philosophy, as well as CCP Fozzie's stated intentions.
- JF dependency for nullsec would skyrocket due to highsec's superior acquisition costs, which is markedly against CCP's desires for nullsec.
The thing you don't seem to get is that highsec and nullsec can be tuned independently from each other. Buffing one area does not necessitate a buff in the other area, nor does a nerf in one area require a nerf to the other. This is not the iconic dream scene from Lorenzo's Oil. If this was even remotely the case, highsec incursions would have been castrated a long time ago.
= In a limited capacity (anoms) the valuation would be entirely capable of being adjusted to keep valuation of the minerals reasonable. The changes to Ice mining have shown that limited conditional spawning mechanics does not impede on the valuation vs direct source mechanics.
= see above for an explanation on why this wouldn't be the case
= Doing so would not make HS any more self sufficient than pumping up Lowends does for NS, it is an improvement but limited conditions does not make HS instantly fully self sufficient. If this were the case then Gun mining would have been obliterated instead of simply nerfed.
= Why would JF dependency sky rocket? Unless of course folks in NS are not mining the ore available to them. If you have the ore right out your front door, why would you bother outsourcing for it...unless you simply do not want to mine it yourself.
|
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Shadow of xXDEATHXx
179
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 17:13:14 -
[497] - Quote
the main reason that most alliance import ores for builds is simple
It takes time to mine. most are too lazy to get a bunch of people to mine for a month to gather the lowends for 1 titan. the highends can be mined in the time It takes to haul the lowends from jita. but the bulky lowends take forever.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1611
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 17:22:48 -
[498] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote: = In a limited capacity (anoms) the valuation would be entirely capable of being adjusted to keep valuation of the minerals reasonable. The changes to Ice mining have shown that limited conditional spawning mechanics does not impede on the valuation vs direct source mechanics.
= see above for an explanation on why this wouldn't be the case
= Doing so would not make HS any more self sufficient than pumping up Lowends does for NS, it is an improvement but limited conditions does not make HS instantly fully self sufficient. If this were the case then Gun mining would have been obliterated instead of simply nerfed.
= Why would JF dependency sky rocket? Unless of course folks in NS are not mining the ore available to them. If you have the ore right out your front door, why would you bother outsourcing for it...unless you simply do not want to mine it yourself.
Considering isotope values are in the toilet, I'll take that as an anti-example to your point.
You'll have to link the post in question for the second point, because I don't know to which post you refer.
You can't really make the third point and claim up and down that "nullsec has the lowends needed to build already."
JF dependency would skyrocket because the rapacity and utter safety of highsec would see all available highend bearing anomalies stripped by folks whose ability to understand an economic bargain compares unfavorably to people who buy lottery tickets. This causes the costs to race to the bottom, making highsec production much cheaper compared to nullsec. Thus, nullsec production slows/halts when people realize, hey, we can just JF this stuff in instead of building it and save a bundle.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1612
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 17:27:01 -
[499] - Quote
Furthermore, I guess I don't understand this sudden outburst of people unhappy with the idea that highsec needs to get highends from nullsec. It always did! This part did not change, at all. Why is it so important now? Not only that, but the amount of highends needed barely increases your build costs, even with a sharp increase in price of highends.
The cynical part of my brain asserts that the answer to the question "Why is it so important now?" is "because a change is happening to nullsec that improves its quality of life; therefore, it must be snuffed out."
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1707
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 17:49:30 -
[500] - Quote
Querns wrote:Furthermore, I guess I don't understand this sudden outburst of people unhappy with the idea that highsec needs to get highends from nullsec. It always did! This part did not change, at all. Why is it so important now? Not only that, but the amount of highends needed barely increases your build costs, even with a sharp increase in price of highends.
The cynical part of my brain asserts that the answer to the question "Why is it so important now?" is "because a change is happening to nullsec that improves its quality of life; therefore, it must be snuffed out."
It's reverse NIMBY.
And people being scared the low end will crash hard if you don't import a metric ass ton of them. |
|
Mario Putzo
1198
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 17:53:43 -
[501] - Quote
Querns wrote: Considering isotope values are in the toilet, I'll take that as an anti-example to your point.
You'll have to link the post in question for the second point, because I don't know to which post you refer.
You can't really make the third point and claim up and down that "nullsec has the lowends needed to build already."
JF dependency would skyrocket because the rapacity and utter safety of highsec would see all available highend bearing anomalies stripped by folks whose ability to understand an economic bargain compares unfavorably to people who buy lottery tickets. This causes the costs to race to the bottom, making highsec production much cheaper compared to nullsec. Thus, nullsec production slows/halts when people realize, hey, we can just JF this stuff in instead of building it and save a bundle.
= They are in the toilet because supply is crushing demand ever since Phoebe and Jump Fatigue. Prior to that the changes to Ice in HS were positive in increasing the valuation of Ice products. Compared to the old system where Ice never went away and people could "AFK mine" it all day long.
= The post was not a post it was the point i made right above (regarding the changes to Ice mining mechanics in HS).
= They do have them though, its just easier and less effort to import from highsec because there are more folks actively mining there. The changes don't actually fill a void, they just make it easier to get what you want and require less effort to do so, which are good. However I wager folks who can mostly guarantee a safe avenue will still source most of their minerals from HS...because again its easier and less effort to buy a million trit and stick it in a JF (even with fatigue), than mine a million trit.
= This is not a result of mechanics though, this is a choice of the person doing the production who would rather risk their 7B JF to get material from HS, that is available outside their front door. Even if the market tanked it has no bearing on dependency of JFs. Instead of supplying HS with highends, NS folks could just sit on their and use it for their own production. If people determine that the effort/result isn't worth their time to mine...then they can choose to import...i don't see what is wrong with that. Choice is always greater than requirement.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1636
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 18:40:32 -
[502] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote: = They are in the toilet because supply is crushing demand ever since Phoebe and Jump Fatigue. Prior to that the changes to Ice in HS were positive in increasing the valuation of Ice products. Compared to the old system where Ice never went away and people could "AFK mine" it all day long.
= The post was not a post it was the point i made right above (regarding the changes to Ice mining mechanics in HS).
= They do have them though, its just easier and less effort to import from highsec because there are more folks actively mining there. The changes don't actually fill a void, they just make it easier to get what you want and require less effort to do so, which are good. However I wager folks who can mostly guarantee a safe avenue will still source most of their minerals from HS...because again its easier and less effort to buy a million trit and stick it in a JF (even with fatigue), than mine a million trit.
= This is not a result of mechanics though, this is a choice of the person doing the production who would rather risk their 7B JF to get material from HS, that is available outside their front door. Even if the market tanked it has no bearing on dependency of JFs. Instead of supplying HS with highends, NS folks could just sit on their and use it for their own production. If people determine that the effort/result isn't worth their time to mine...then they can choose to import...i don't see what is wrong with that. Choice is always greater than requirement.
Actually up until last year, you could source pretty much every highend you would ever need from gun mining. When CCP nerfed it the dependency on NS went up...and it is why the markets are the way they are right now in terms of High End availability. (and i made this argument then as well that mineral scarcity on high ends would become a thing...so this is not a new thing from me)
(and this also isn't about cost, because that would just get rolled into the final product sale price, simply about availability of the mineral itself)
In what world do you live in where a JF is ever at risk?
Nullsec empires are dependent on JFs currently because there are not enough lowends in nullsec. Lowends have to be JFed up from empire to build anything. It's just a fact. No amount of hemming and hawing about nullsec lowend supply is going to change that. Furthermore, the lowends that are currently available in nullsec come in the form of HIGHSEC ORES. Why would we mine highsec ores in vastly more dangerous nullsec when it can be done in highsec?
The rub on JFs is while they currently enable nullsec to function, it's not without a cost. Currently, I pay 300 isk per m^3 to have things shipped from empire to nullsec, and that is to Deklein, a region that is 2j from empire. If you wanna see some serious highway robbery, check out Black Frog's freight costs. Everything coming into nullsec has that tax applied to it. Meanwhile, highsec enjoys a vast ecosystem of considerably safer and significantly cheaper public courier services.
The changes described in the OP help to lessen the need of nullsec on the almighty jump freighter by not only improving nullsec mineral compositions, but also by making it not such an obviously terrible economic bargain to do so.
Also, gun mining died much earlier, when CCP removed the vast majority of t1 drops from rats. Meta drops refine for a LOT fewer minerals.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
587
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 19:30:36 -
[503] - Quote
Querns wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Will we see a similar change that begins to spawn high end rocks in low amount in hisec? This would be good for explorers to hunt down, lucky miners to hit the odd payday, gankers to stake out. If one area is to be made more self sufficient then all must be in some way. Make it so that being self sufficient requires effort, with effort scaling inverse linear with risk.
This already happens -- the sites are called "wormholes." I thought WHs were designed for only null sec use. High sec carebears don't go into WHs. |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
587
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 19:34:36 -
[504] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:No area of space is intended to be fully self sufficient. These changes will not make any area of space fully self sufficient, nor should they. Out of curiosity, how exactly do you define "self sufficient"?
Is it the ability to build 20 supercaps per day? 100? 1000? An unlimited supply? :) |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1636
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 19:35:49 -
[505] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Querns wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Will we see a similar change that begins to spawn high end rocks in low amount in hisec? This would be good for explorers to hunt down, lucky miners to hit the odd payday, gankers to stake out. If one area is to be made more self sufficient then all must be in some way. Make it so that being self sufficient requires effort, with effort scaling inverse linear with risk.
This already happens -- the sites are called "wormholes." I thought WHs were designed for only null sec use. High sec carebears don't go into WHs. Given the candor of whining by wormholer dwellers, how could you tell?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
587
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 19:41:01 -
[506] - Quote
Querns wrote:You've made the fundamental mistake of thinking that Eve is fair. I have not heard a dev say this in a long time.
Didn't all of the "EVE isn't fair" devs leave CCP over the past year or so? |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
587
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 19:43:50 -
[507] - Quote
Querns wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:I thought WHs were designed for only null sec use. High sec carebears don't go into WHs. Given the candor of whining by wormholer dwellers, how could you tell? Well, there is actually a different cadence to WH whining, which is much more in tune with nullbear whining than carebear whining... ;) |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
587
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 19:47:27 -
[508] - Quote
Querns wrote:Meta drops refine for a LOT fewer minerals. Speaking of which....
CCP Fozzie - are you also planning to adjust the Megacyte and Zydrine values of reprocessed meta modules, when you adjust the blueprint values? |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1638
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 19:59:32 -
[509] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Querns wrote:Meta drops refine for a LOT fewer minerals. Speaking of which.... CCP Fozzie - are you also planning to adjust the Megacyte and Zydrine values of reprocessed meta modules, when you adjust the blueprint values? Meta modules have no blueprint, so this will not happen.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
587
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 20:02:18 -
[510] - Quote
Querns wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Querns wrote:Meta drops refine for a LOT fewer minerals. Speaking of which.... CCP Fozzie - are you also planning to adjust the Megacyte and Zydrine values of reprocessed meta modules, when you adjust the blueprint values? Meta modules have no blueprint, so this will not happen. Querns, my dear friend, you are not an alt of CCP Fozzie, are you?
|
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1638
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 20:04:50 -
[511] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Querns wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Querns wrote:Meta drops refine for a LOT fewer minerals. Speaking of which.... CCP Fozzie - are you also planning to adjust the Megacyte and Zydrine values of reprocessed meta modules, when you adjust the blueprint values? Meta modules have no blueprint, so this will not happen. Querns, my dear friend, you are not an alt of CCP Fozzie, are you? Of course not, but I can make rational assumptions based on the intent of the changes.
Increasing zyd/mega content of meta modules would increase zyd/mega supply.
The point of the changes is to reduce zyd/mega supply.
This is not a difficult leap of logic.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1638
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 20:05:49 -
[512] - Quote
Trying to trick people into making some sort of extra zyd/mega font in highsec is just not going to happen.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
587
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 20:52:23 -
[513] - Quote
Querns wrote:Sizeof Void wrote: Querns, my dear friend, you are not an alt of CCP Fozzie, are you?
Of course not... Hmm... now you've really got me wondering... it *would* certainly explain a few things... lol ;) |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
587
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 21:04:18 -
[514] - Quote
Querns wrote:Trying to trick people into making some sort of extra zyd/mega font in highsec is just not going to happen. Actually, my only real interest is in trying to convince CCP to restore some balance, ie. value, to T1 module manufacturing, to encourage more new industrialists.
Currently, there isn't much reason to use, and thus build, T1 modules (except as a component of T2 modules) - which really doesn't leave much for noob manufacturers to build, except T1 ammo and maybe T1 rigs. They can't just jump into building T2 modules, you know - and the margins on T1 ships is too small to make sense for a noob manufacturer.
So, how do metas affect this? In addition to having better specs than T1 modules, low meta market prices are frequently cheaper than T1 module build cost. This is primarily because low meta supply is too high, which pushes their market price down to their reprocessing value, which is often below the T1 blueprint mineral value, esp. after the 50% nerf to reprocessing.
And, increasing the mega/zyd reqs on T1 module blueprints, without changing the meta reprocessing, will probably make this situation worse, not better.
So, there you go. This is why I ask the question about reprocessing metas. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1642
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 21:08:51 -
[515] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Querns wrote:Trying to trick people into making some sort of extra zyd/mega font in highsec is just not going to happen. Actually, my only real interest is in trying to convince CCP to restore some balance, ie. value, to T1 module manufacturing, to encourage more new industrialists. Currently, there isn't much reason to use, and thus build, T1 modules (except as a component of T2 modules) - which really doesn't leave much for noob manufacturers to build, except T1 ammo and maybe T1 rigs. They can't just jump into building T2 modules, you know - and the margins on T1 ships is too small to make sense for a noob manufacturer. So, how do metas affect this? In addition to having better specs than T1 modules, low meta market prices are frequently cheaper than T1 module build cost. This is primarily because low meta supply is too high, which pushes their market price down to their reprocessing value, which is often below the T1 blueprint mineral value, esp. after the 50% nerf to reprocessing. And, increasing the mega/zyd reqs on T1 module blueprints, without changing the meta reprocessing, will probably make this situation worse, not better. So, there you go. This is why I ask the question about reprocessing metas. Two issues with this.
A) The increase in zyd/mega only accounts for 1-2% of the value of a typical T1 item, from the lowliest frigate ammo all the way up to Titans.
2) The corresponding drop in lowends, caused by the mining ecosystem balancing, will more than make up for the increase in highend quantities.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
587
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 21:25:57 -
[516] - Quote
Querns wrote: A) The increase in zyd/mega only accounts for 1-2% of the value of a typical T1 item, from the lowliest frigate ammo all the way up to Titans.
2) The corresponding drop in lowends, caused by the mining ecosystem balancing, will more than make up for the increase in highend quantities.
A) True for ships, not for all T1 modules. There are T1 items which require 1 Mega and/or 1 Zyd, and an insignifcant amount of lowends. CCP hasn't really done much work on rebalancing most T1 module BPOs since they were first released - too much focus on ships and T2 manufacturing. There are some pretty strange and unbalanced numbers in the T1 BPOs.
B) Not necessarily. In many cases, there isn't any logical correspondance between the minerals in the T1 BPO and the reprocessing of the metas. A T1 module may need 1 Mega + 1 Zyd + low ends to build; the meta may reprocess only to low ends. In this case, doubling the Mega/Zyd in the T1 BPO, without changing the meta reprocessing value, exacerbates the problem. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1642
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 21:29:40 -
[517] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Querns wrote: A) The increase in zyd/mega only accounts for 1-2% of the value of a typical T1 item, from the lowliest frigate ammo all the way up to Titans.
2) The corresponding drop in lowends, caused by the mining ecosystem balancing, will more than make up for the increase in highend quantities.
A) True for ships, not for all T1 modules. There are T1 items which require 1 Mega and/or 1 Zyd, and an insignifcant amount of lowends. CCP hasn't really done much work on rebalancing most T1 module BPOs since they were first released - too much focus on ships and T2 manufacturing. There are some pretty strange and unbalanced numbers in the T1 BPOs. B) Not necessarily. In many cases, there isn't any logical correspondance between the minerals in the T1 BPO and the reprocessing of the metas. A T1 module may need 1 Mega + 1 Zyd + low ends to build; the meta may reprocess only to low ends. In this case, doubling the Mega/Zyd in the T1 BPO, without changing the meta reprocessing value, exacerbates the problem. Are you seriously nickle and diming the change so much that you're concerned about modules that take 1 zyd and 1 mega?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
587
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 21:37:22 -
[518] - Quote
Querns wrote:Are you seriously nickle and diming the change so much that you're concerned about modules that take 1 zyd and 1 mega? Absolutely. New manufacturing players don't start out by manufacturing 2B ISK carriers. They start out by building cheap T1 stuff.
And, if CCP doesn't learn to put more dev focus on the nickel-and-dime things which are going to help interest new players, then time spent on changes to improve the so-called end games of null sec or high sec are just going to be a waste of time. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1642
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 21:40:42 -
[519] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Querns wrote:Are you seriously nickle and diming the change so much that you're concerned about modules that take 1 zyd and 1 mega? Absolutely. New manufacturing players don't start out by manufacturing 2B ISK carriers. They start out by building cheap T1 stuff. And, if CCP doesn't learn to put more dev focus on the nickel-and-dime things which are going to help interest new players, then time spent on changes to improve the so-called end games of null sec or high sec are just going to be a waste of time. Newbies also don't build things that take that few materials. Those items are the purvey of folks in highsec with significant capital, who can build large numbers of the item at a time in a POS to take advantage of the ME bonus over very large runs.
Also, I take offense to your assertation that nullsec is not a place for newbies. I personally podded to VFK within 24 hours of starting the game. Highsec is not training wheels for Eve.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
587
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 21:55:22 -
[520] - Quote
Querns wrote: Newbies also don't build things that take that few materials. Those items are the purvey of folks in highsec with significant capital, who can build large numbers of the item at a time in a POS to take advantage of the ME bonus over very large runs.
lol... that's because T1 manufacturing is broken. It has been focused on making things work for older, richer players - with no work really done to make it more viable for new players. There really should be no ME, POS or skill-based bonuses on manufacturing low end items.
Querns wrote: Also, I take offense to your assertation that nullsec is not a place for newbies. I personally podded to VFK within 24 hours of starting the game. Highsec is not training wheels for Eve.
Did I ever say that?
Naw... I think the Goons noob program is actually more of how the game should actually work. I don't really agree with starting noobs out in high sec. I think everyone should start out in null or low; then they can move to high sec later, if they really want to do so. |
|
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
536
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 22:03:08 -
[521] - Quote
So we as nullsec entities run out of game recruitment programs to get thousands of brand new players into eve online. We get them directly into nullsec and try to direct them to easy activities that they can do within a few days. Mining is the worst income per hour activity in the game at this point for an individual.
CCP announces a new change that will fix certain rocks to be rare and more valuable (namely ark) that a new player could cherry pick for some meaningful income. Also, these changes will allow a new player in null to be able to mine their own minerals in null to produce meaningful amounts of t1 items without having to import raw minerals or export a gigantic surplus of high end minerals that they can't use.
Yet- there are people that don't understand the changes that are claiming that this is an unfair boost to nullsec.
All I'm sayin is that highsec hates new players |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
172
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 22:36:42 -
[522] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:So we as nullsec entities run out of game recruitment programs to get thousands of brand new players into eve online. We get them directly into nullsec and try to direct them to easy activities that they can do within a few days. Mining is the worst income per hour activity in the game at this point for an individual.
CCP announces a new change that will fix certain rocks to be rare and more valuable (namely ark) that a new player could cherry pick for some meaningful income. Also, these changes will allow a new player in null to be able to mine their own minerals in null to produce meaningful amounts of t1 items without having to import raw minerals or export a gigantic surplus of high end minerals that they can't use.
Yet- there are people that don't understand the changes that are claiming that this is an unfair boost to nullsec.
All I'm sayin is that highsec hates new players
What a load of crap and bullshit... not surprising from a gewn. As always, trying to present their omgwtf-megabuff to their bot miner fleets as something for newbies... that's really low, as always.
First of all, newbies and production don't go in hand. It took me as a newbie one peek at the blueprint prices to forget about it as a newbie. Secondly, newbies don't have anything to produce. If you have bps, you have major manufacturers use them to shelf out everything you have bps for. Newbies are better off just getting those. Thirdly, don't talk about null local mineral and ore prices. Bots have driven them to the rock bottom. Trit never raised above 4 ISK/unit even in south for this year. High-ends - even lower. This is just a typical goon newbie farm you're advocating here, as usual.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
|
Gallowmere Rorschach
Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation
997
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 22:50:15 -
[523] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote: What a load of crap and bullshit... not surprising from a gewn. As always, trying to present their omgwtf-megabuff to their bot miner fleets as something for newbies... that's really low, as always.
First of all, newbies and production don't go in hand. It took me as a newbie one peek at the blueprint prices to forget about it as a newbie. Secondly, newbies don't have anything to produce. If you have bps, you have major manufacturers use them to shelf out everything you have bps for. Newbies are better off just getting those. Thirdly, don't talk about null local mineral and ore prices. Bots have driven them to the rock bottom. Trit never raised above 4 ISK/unit even in south for this year. High-ends - even lower. This is just a typical goon newbie farm you're advocating here, as usual.
You actually haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about, do you? |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1643
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 22:51:31 -
[524] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote: What a load of crap and bullshit... not surprising from a gewn. As always, trying to present their omgwtf-megabuff to their bot miner fleets as something for newbies... that's really low, as always.
First of all, newbies and production don't go in hand. It took me as a newbie one peek at the blueprint prices to forget about it as a newbie. Secondly, newbies don't have anything to produce. If you have bps, you have major manufacturers use them to shelf out everything you have bps for. Newbies are better off just getting those. Thirdly, don't talk about null local mineral and ore prices. Bots have driven them to the rock bottom. Trit never raised above 4 ISK/unit even in south for this year. High-ends - even lower. This is just a typical goon newbie farm you're advocating here, as usual.
If there are so many bots in the game, why aren't you reporting them?
I suppose it is easier to whine about them on eve-o without proof.
Also, pictures of the 4 isk trit market or it didn't happen.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
HarlyQ
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
96
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 22:51:47 -
[525] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Mr Omniblivion wrote:So we as nullsec entities run out of game recruitment programs to get thousands of brand new players into eve online. We get them directly into nullsec and try to direct them to easy activities that they can do within a few days. Mining is the worst income per hour activity in the game at this point for an individual.
CCP announces a new change that will fix certain rocks to be rare and more valuable (namely ark) that a new player could cherry pick for some meaningful income. Also, these changes will allow a new player in null to be able to mine their own minerals in null to produce meaningful amounts of t1 items without having to import raw minerals or export a gigantic surplus of high end minerals that they can't use.
Yet- there are people that don't understand the changes that are claiming that this is an unfair boost to nullsec.
All I'm sayin is that highsec hates new players What a load of crap and bullshit... not surprising from a gewn. As always, trying to present their omgwtf-megabuff to their bot miner fleets as something for newbies... that's really low, as always. First of all, newbies and production don't go in hand. It took me as a newbie one peek at the blueprint prices to forget about it as a newbie. Secondly, newbies don't have anything to produce. If you have bps, you have major manufacturers use them to shelf out everything you have bps for. Newbies are better off just getting those. Thirdly, don't talk about null local mineral and ore prices. Bots have driven them to the rock bottom. Trit never raised above 4 ISK/unit even in south for this year. High-ends - even lower. This is just a typical goon newbie farm you're advocating here, as usual. If you know of someone botting you should report it other than sperging about it in this thread.
To be honest I love my newbee miners that sell me the ore and mins I need for my jobs. I also give the newbees copies if they ask. I wonder if you actually know anything about mining and how industrial's interact in nullsec at all. Since most of the junk that spews off your fingers is grr goons. So please stop shitting up this thread. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2324
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 22:55:48 -
[526] - Quote
He's just a couple 'Cartels' short of a full Dinsdale |
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
537
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 23:05:49 -
[527] - Quote
See this image: Bots Banned Map
Then look at this from 2015 fanfest: Security Report
And then tell me where most of the bots are
We've been stuffing all of our bots into KarmaFleet and disguising them as new players
Also we kicked some that couldn't get their bots to participate in fleets |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
172
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 23:12:17 -
[528] - Quote
Querns wrote:If there are so many bots in the game, why aren't you reporting them? Last time I tried, it was 2012, I reported my ass out and it did nothing.
Querns wrote:I suppose it is easier to whine about them on eve-o without proof. It were certainly bots, they never reacted to being locked by anything other than destroyer, so I ended up storing a Catalyst in the Orca, every time I took it out and locked them, dem Macks warped away and sat at station until I leave. They are probably still not banned - that's why I gave up and only whine about it, because that's all I can do, since I'm not a ganktard. Needless to say, all the proof has been submitted via proper channels.
Querns wrote:Also, pictures of the 4 isk trit market or it didn't happen. https://eve-central.com/home/market.html Select south regions, check tritanium. Last time I checked it were about 2.75 ISK/unit.
I would've asked you to stop being full of ****, but you're a gewn, which means your **** is on SRP. Well, it isn't like this thread is anything but a bunch of gewns defending their gains from this megabuff.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
|
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2326
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 23:20:54 -
[529] - Quote
You mean those four orders? |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1645
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 23:21:45 -
[530] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Querns wrote:If there are so many bots in the game, why aren't you reporting them? Last time I tried, it was 2012, I reported my ass out and it did nothing. Querns wrote:I suppose it is easier to whine about them on eve-o without proof. It were certainly bots, they never reacted to being locked by anything other than destroyer, so I ended up storing a Catalyst in the Orca, every time I took it out and locked them, dem Macks warped away and sat at station until I leave. They are probably still not banned - that's why I gave up and only whine about it, because that's all I can do, since I'm not a ganktard. Needless to say, all the proof has been submitted via proper channels. Querns wrote:Also, pictures of the 4 isk trit market or it didn't happen. https://eve-central.com/home/market.html Select south regions, check tritanium. Last time I checked it were about 2.75 ISK/unit. I would've asked you to stop being full of ****, but you're a gewn, which means your **** is on SRP. Well, it isn't like this thread is anything but a bunch of gewns defending their gains from this megabuff. So eve is full of bots, but you haven't checked since 2012? I believe your vignettes need recalibrating. This is TYOOL 2015. I suppose you think drakes are the ship of the line and technetium is king shit of moongoo mountain too.
Looking at the southern regions, all I see is trace amounts of trit bunged up in random stations at 4 isk per unit. Trit is too costly to move, so it makes sense that if you have some you can't use, you firesale it and pray for a buyer. Bots would be generating vastly larger sums of trit than this. Pretty weak.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
|
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1055
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 23:27:25 -
[531] - Quote
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote: What a load of crap and bullshit... not surprising from a gewn. As always, trying to present their omgwtf-megabuff to their bot miner fleets as something for newbies... that's really low, as always.
First of all, newbies and production don't go in hand. It took me as a newbie one peek at the blueprint prices to forget about it as a newbie. Secondly, newbies don't have anything to produce. If you have bps, you have major manufacturers use them to shelf out everything you have bps for. Newbies are better off just getting those. Thirdly, don't talk about null local mineral and ore prices. Bots have driven them to the rock bottom. Trit never raised above 4 ISK/unit even in south for this year. High-ends - even lower. This is just a typical goon newbie farm you're advocating here, as usual.
You actually haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about, do you? this is the mining expert who said that the skiff was an unviable ship because it had no meaningful tank or yield, who also couldn't figure out you can orbit a can without jetcan mining
so what i'm saying is who knows, we could be dealing with a real mining genius here |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1055
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 00:04:46 -
[532] - Quote
Querns wrote:Looking at the southern regions, all I see is trace amounts of trit bunged up in random stations at 4 isk per unit. Trit is too costly to move, so it makes sense that if you have some you can't use, you firesale it and pray for a buyer. Bots would be generating vastly larger sums of trit than this. Pretty weak. our official mining expert also conveniently excluded the one region in nullsec with some trit volume, deklein, where prices are never 4 p/u |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
172
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 01:21:50 -
[533] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:this is the mining expert who said that the skiff was an unviable ship because it had no meaningful tank or yield, who also couldn't figure out you can orbit a can without jetcan mining
so what i'm saying is who knows, we could be dealing with a real mining genius here
Oh, you are still clinging to moronity of mining in Skiffs?
I will repeat once again, considering your "special" density. 1) Skiff is good for trolling suicide wankers, because they're mad about it as heck. For anything else, it's highly impractical. It has a prohibitively high cost for its lack of yield and almost no meaningful improvement compared to an order of magnitude cheaper Procurer. The only grace it has in null is dying longer. The only grace it has in high is that it's marginally harder to bump. The only thing keeping the miner safe is the minimal field exposure, and this means full yield full attention is the only way. Skiff has to stay on field 20% longer than much cheaper Covetor, which is making it unviable. 2) Cans are cretin magnets. Even if all you have in then isn't worth a spit. Any of them special olympics team members get super excited every time he sees a can, it must have an irresistible icon enabling stupid mode for so many people. They are going to flip it even if there's a "flip me to confirm being room temperature IQ" sign on it. Then they get bored in 15 seconds and start bumping you out of spite. Using cans in hisec is therefore... unappealing, and in null you don't need to constantly orbit stuff anyway.
I understand I'm doing the futile thing, trying to punch sense into a gewn here, but hey, I tried.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1649
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 01:43:23 -
[534] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:EvilweaselSA wrote:our official mining expert also conveniently excluded the one region in nullsec with some trit volume, deklein, where prices are never 4 p/u I did not include regions where human mining is below 10% of volume. Except for the part where you claimed the south was inundated with mining bots. So, the south is okay to look at, but deklein isn't, despite your assertion that both have mining bots?
Also, you haven't logged in to observe mining bot activity since 2012. You are, quite possibly, the least qualified to talk about mining bot prevalence in this thread.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1057
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 01:54:03 -
[535] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:1) Skiff is good for trolling suicide wankers, because they're mad about it as heck. For anything else, it's highly impractical. It has a prohibitively high cost for its lack of yield and almost no meaningful improvement compared to an order of magnitude cheaper Procurer. The only grace it has in null is dying longer. The only grace it has in high is that it's marginally harder to bump. The only thing keeping the miner safe is the minimal field exposure, and this means full yield full attention is the only way. Skiff has to stay on field 20% longer than much cheaper Covetor, which is making it unviable. 2) Cans are cretin magnets. Even if all you have in then isn't worth a spit. Any of them special olympics team members get super excited every time he sees a can, it must have an irresistible icon enabling stupid mode for so many people. They are going to flip it even if there's a "flip me to confirm being room temperature IQ" sign on it. Then they get bored in 15 seconds and start bumping you out of spite. Using cans in hisec is therefore... unappealing, and in null you don't need to constantly orbit stuff anyway. I understand I'm doing the futile thing, trying to punch sense into a gewn here, but hey, I tried. EvilweaselSA wrote:our official mining expert also conveniently excluded the one region in nullsec with some trit volume, deklein, where prices are never 4 p/u I did not include regions where human mining is below 10% of volume. ladies and gentlemen, our mining expert, who doesn't know how much of a benefit a skiff has over a procurer, who believes the only way to mine safely is to fit for max yield, who can't figure out how to use a can, and who has no idea that it's not 2012
oh, also, he believes that regions that have more bot miners would have more expensive trit than regions that had less bot miners in nullsec, for some reason that is beyond us mortals
promote this man to chief mining designer of ccp immediately, we can't let his brilliance go to waste one second longer |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
587
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 02:43:59 -
[536] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:...our mining expert, who doesn't know how much of a benefit a skiff has over a procurer, who believes the only way to mine safely is to fit for max yield, who can't figure out how to use a can, and... Actually, while the Skiff might have some advantage over the Proc in null sec mining, it really does not in high sec. A Skiff, despite its tank, is still a worthwhile target for suicide ganking, due to its high cost. A Proc, no matter how you work the numbers, isn't worth ganking (unless someone is stuipd enough to fit it with officer mods) and so is relatively safer to fly.
Max yield is still the "recommended" mining strategy in high sec. No matter what anyone tells them, high sec miners still believe that max yield, even with the cost of occasionally ganked ships, is still more profitable than lower yield, with max tank. They seem to have reams of spreadsheets to prove their point. And, trying to convince them otherwise is like talking to a wall (I've tried). So, maybe "safety" really means "profitable" in miner lingo?
Jetcans? Don't think I've seen anyone really using jetcans in high sec since before 2012... lol. Those damn Retrievers and Macks have ridiculously big ore holds. I'm not sure there is any benefit to mining to a jetcan, then flying in a hauler to pick it up. For a short while, after the mining ship changes, I used to see Hulks use jetcans, with tractor-equipped Orcas to pick up, but Hulks are pretty easy to gank these days. |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1057
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 03:14:27 -
[537] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote: Jetcans? Don't think I've seen anyone really using jetcans in high sec since before 2012... lol. Those damn Retrievers and Macks have ridiculously big ore holds. I'm not sure there is any benefit to mining to a jetcan, then flying in a hauler to pick it up. For a short while, after the mining ship changes, I used to see Hulks use jetcans, with tractor-equipped Orcas to pick up, but Hulks are pretty easy to gank these days.
to orbit |
Traedar
InterStellar Trading Syndicate
28
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 03:24:58 -
[538] - Quote
WTB info on what is currently in the Nullsec Mining Anomaly. Send mail in-game. |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
587
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 03:26:11 -
[539] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:Sizeof Void wrote: Jetcans? Don't think I've seen anyone really using jetcans in high sec since before 2012... lol. Those damn Retrievers and Macks have ridiculously big ore holds. I'm not sure there is any benefit to mining to a jetcan, then flying in a hauler to pick it up. For a short while, after the mining ship changes, I used to see Hulks use jetcans, with tractor-equipped Orcas to pick up, but Hulks are pretty easy to gank these days.
to orbit Amusing idea. But, what happens if someone flips the can? Does the mining ship just stop moving or does it sail off out of the belt? |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
120
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 03:28:36 -
[540] - Quote
Rowells wrote:You mean those four orders?
What was the volume? I'm curious.
Must've been a whole 10,000 of Tritanium.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
|
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2330
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 03:36:33 -
[541] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Rowells wrote:You mean those four orders? What was the volume? I'm curious. Must've been a whole 10,000 of Tritanium. 410k amongst the four. |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
123
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 03:42:14 -
[542] - Quote
Rowells wrote:GankYou wrote:Rowells wrote:You mean those four orders? What was the volume? I'm curious. Must've been a whole 10,000 of Tritanium. 410k amongst the four.
STOP THE PRESSES A whole 3.4% of the total Trit amount needed to build one Battleship has been found in Nullsecks!
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2776
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 04:11:43 -
[543] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Rowells wrote:GankYou wrote:Rowells wrote:You mean those four orders? What was the volume? I'm curious. Must've been a whole 10,000 of Tritanium. 410k amongst the four. STOP THE PRESSES A whole 3.4% of the total Trit amount needed to build one Battleship has been found in Nullsecks!
I have been watching this thread since page 12...and goddamn Querns, GankYou, Anhenka, et. al. have been rope-a-doping just about all the high sec people.
Well done.....and if you are part of the et. al., sorry don't mean to give short shrift to your contributions they are good too. Mr Omniblivion, Rowells, EvilweaselSA, Gallowmere, and HarlyQ to name some of the people with good comments.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
174
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 04:17:31 -
[544] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Amusing idea. But, what happens if someone flips the can? Does the mining ship just stop moving or does it sail off out of the belt? Same as orbiting a ship that gets popped. Sail out. I'm sure he doesn't mind doing it with style in his Skiff.
EvilweaselSA wrote: ladies and gentlemen, our mining expert, who doesn't know how much of a benefit a skiff has over a procurer, who believes the only way to mine safely is to fit for max yield, who can't figure out how to use a can, and who has no idea that it's not 2012
oh, also, he believes that regions that have more bot miners would have more expensive trit than regions that had less bot miners in nullsec, for some reason that is beyond us mortals
Usual gewnspeak, trying to troll, ignoring everything, typical density and no-brain show. Once again, for special people, and those who are below them, and gewns who are below those: 1) There are no meaningful advantages of Skiff over Procurer. 2) If something attacks the miner and it's not a low-dps rat, the miner is dead, no matter what he pilots. 3) The only defense against said attack is lessen the exposure. Which means mine for less time, compensating with efficiency. 4) Cans are cretin magnets. Use them to bring 1001 ganktards to your belt. Orbiting doesn't work since you're dead no matter what you do if you're hit.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1650
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 04:29:12 -
[545] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: I have been watching this thread since page 12...and goddamn Querns, GankYou, Anhenka, et. al. have been rope-a-doping just about all the high sec people.
Well done.....and if you are part of the et. al., sorry don't mean to give short shrift to your contributions they are good too. Mr Omniblivion, Rowells, EvilweaselSA, Gallowmere, and HarlyQ to name some of the people with good comments.
It's what I do.
The dirty secret here is that none of these people are actually "high sec people" GÇö they're anti-nullsec people.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
HarlyQ
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
97
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 04:50:54 -
[546] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Amusing idea. But, what happens if someone flips the can? Does the mining ship just stop moving or does it sail off out of the belt? Same as orbiting a ship that gets popped. Sail out. I'm sure he doesn't mind doing it with style in his Skiff. EvilweaselSA wrote: ladies and gentlemen, our mining expert, who doesn't know how much of a benefit a skiff has over a procurer, who believes the only way to mine safely is to fit for max yield, who can't figure out how to use a can, and who has no idea that it's not 2012
oh, also, he believes that regions that have more bot miners would have more expensive trit than regions that had less bot miners in nullsec, for some reason that is beyond us mortals
Usual gewnspeak, trying to troll, ignoring everything, typical density and no-brain show. Once again, for special people, and those who are below them, and gewns who are below those: 1) There are no meaningful advantages of Skiff over Procurer. 2) If something attacks the miner and it's not a low-dps rat, the miner is dead, no matter what he pilots. 3) The only defense against said attack is lessen the exposure. Which means mine for less time, compensating with efficiency. 4) Cans are cretin magnets. Use them to bring 1001 ganktards to your belt. Orbiting doesn't work since you're dead no matter what you do if you're hit. You have obviously never watched ganking then because it does fail. Kinda like your horrible posting. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1103
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 06:03:00 -
[547] - Quote
Querns wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: I have been watching this thread since page 12...and goddamn Querns, GankYou, Anhenka, et. al. have been rope-a-doping just about all the high sec people.
Well done.....and if you are part of the et. al., sorry don't mean to give short shrift to your contributions they are good too. Mr Omniblivion, Rowells, EvilweaselSA, Gallowmere, and HarlyQ to name some of the people with good comments.
It's what I do. The dirty secret here is that none of these people are actually "high sec people" GÇö they're anti-nullsec people.
Why would I be anti-nullsec? I believe the game needs every region to be healthy and draw different kinds of players to the game. I'm just not convinced that this change is a great idea. This actually gets reinforced by the vociferous support from those who will benefit the most. I'm also uncomfortable that players have been able to invest heavily in a commodity available in only one section of space. That smacks of insider trading, especially when you keep mentioning that there is an over abundance of high ends in null compared to low ends. This is tantamount to throwing a stack of ISK at those who already have (or have much easier access to) those high ends. |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
123
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 06:27:28 -
[548] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:I'm also uncomfortable that players have been able to invest heavily in a commodity available in only one section of space.
You mean like all of the Fleet, Navy, Federation issue ships, modules and ammo?
Quote:That smacks of insider trading, especially when you keep mentioning that there is an over abundance of high ends in null compared to low ends. This is tantamount to throwing a stack of ISK at those who already have (or have much easier access to) those high ends.
Don't think that you're applying the term "insider trading" corrently here. However, if you do actually put the whole weight into the meaning, I refer you to this post, where everyone with the eyes to see saw it coming - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5675444#post5675444
I myself am a pirate on the high seas of Hisecks Market PvP.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Mario Putzo
1198
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 06:32:25 -
[549] - Quote
Querns wrote: The rub on JFs is while they currently enable nullsec to function, it's not without a cost. Currently, I pay 300 isk per m^3 to have things shipped from empire to nullsec, and that is to Deklein, a region that is 2j from empire. If you wanna see some serious highway robbery, check out Black Frog's freight costs. Everything coming into nullsec has that tax applied to it. Meanwhile, highsec enjoys a vast ecosystem of considerably safer and significantly cheaper public courier services.
The changes described in the OP help to lessen the need of nullsec on the almighty jump freighter by not only improving nullsec mineral compositions, but also by making it not such an obviously terrible economic bargain to do so.
Also, gun mining died much earlier, when CCP removed the vast majority of t1 drops from rats. Meta drops refine for a LOT fewer minerals.
Booohooo you have to pay ISK for a service that people ask more of because of the risk. CCP doesn't force you to use Black Frog, You choose to. You could mine the minerals in Deklein (i know :effort:) but you don't.
A) Because your miners are not afforded any real protection outside of numbers in local B) Because your alliance does not actively contribute to funding mining and industry (import its better isk/hr right). C) Because your members are at constant risk of AWOX D) Because of the above more people leave NS mining in Deklein and less people venture into it.
In regards to gun mining...if it was dead why did CCP just nerf it by 45% last spring?
You don't know much about production do you, after all you seem to be under the impression there exists a Blue Print that can build anything in the game if you throw enough isk at it. ISK/hr isn't everything. T1 production walks a very finite line between worth it and not worth it, the changes to production costs make it very much not worth it (if they remain as stands).
If this is really a NS change for more self sufficiency, less dependency on JFs from HS, why does the Zydrine and Megacyte change need to exist at all? It doesn't offer anything to their desired change...except prompt people into doing JF runs from NS to HS.
Its just nonsense and will only drive T1 production (in all space) down as a result of increase Meta module costs which is going to happen because HS folks only source of Mega is from gun mining. Which means HS producers will drive up the price through consumption and reprocessing.
This isn't rocket science man.
|
Mario Putzo
1198
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 06:33:20 -
[550] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:I'm also uncomfortable that players have been able to invest heavily in a commodity available in only one section of space. You mean like all of the Fleet, Navy, Federation issue ships, modules and ammo?
HS + LS = 2.
|
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1103
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 06:44:01 -
[551] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:I'm also uncomfortable that players have been able to invest heavily in a commodity available in only one section of space. You mean like all of the Fleet, Navy, Federation issue ships, modules and ammo? Quote:That smacks of insider trading, especially when you keep mentioning that there is an over abundance of high ends in null compared to low ends. This is tantamount to throwing a stack of ISK at those who already have (or have much easier access to) those high ends. Don't think that you're applying the term "insider trading" corrently here. However, if you do actually put the whole weight into the meaning, I refer you to this post, where everyone with the eyes to see saw it coming - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5675444#post5675444 I myself am a pirate on the high seas of Hisecks Market PvP.
Every one saw it coming but the amount available in hisec was limited whereas those in heavily defended nullsec space could think 'hey lets mine the **** out of meg and zyd ores before they become rare and then refine it later when prices spike (with our much better refining rate to boot!)'...
I'm also not convinced about the 'cut reliance on jf's' argument. Unless the change produces enough minerals to be highly self sufficient then jf runs are still going to be required. However once you have the logistics route recipe planned it's just a case of executing the plan over and over. It will still be easier, faster, less boring and less risk to pull everything in from hisec.
I don't see this achieving much beyond giving some people a big income boost. I would have preferred ore rebalancing to come from the drilling platform structures in some way instead. |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
123
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 07:12:37 -
[552] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:GankYou wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:I'm also uncomfortable that players have been able to invest heavily in a commodity available in only one section of space. You mean like all of the Fleet, Navy, Federation issue ships, modules and ammo? HS + LS = 2.
Yes! One brotherhood of the Empire! pâ+a++a¦ê+ä-£a¦êa++n+ë
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
123
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 07:29:27 -
[553] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Every one saw it coming but the amount available in hisec was limited whereas those in heavily defended nullsec space could think 'hey lets mine the **** out of meg and zyd ores before they become rare and then refine it later when prices spike (with our much better refining rate to boot!)'...
Don't go there.
I was getting multi-million in units buy orders filled non-stop at 630 p/u just a day before April 1st. After I bought out the whole Empire on March 20th.
It is possible, yes, that after the Fanfest on the 19th of March some shrewd entities started stacking said ores, but given the abysmal mineral prices at that time, I'd imagine there wasn't much mining going on prior to this.
And why would you stack Crokite? If you didn't refine it then, you surely are going to refine it before the patch, otherwise you're stuck with your Nocxiums.
Interesting question, though - would ores, which had been mined pre-patch retain their mineral compositions, or is the new changes going to overwrite these?
As an example: AFAIR the ships which had been produced prior to the Tiericide still remained the old mineral bill of materials, so you couldn't refine them into moar mineralulz.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1104
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 07:43:32 -
[554] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Every one saw it coming but the amount available in hisec was limited whereas those in heavily defended nullsec space could think 'hey lets mine the **** out of meg and zyd ores before they become rare and then refine it later when prices spike (with our much better refining rate to boot!)'...
Don't go there. I was getting multi-million in units buy orders filled non-stop at 630 p/u just a day before April 1st. After I bought out the whole Empire on March 20th. It is possible, yes, that after the Fanfest on the 19th of March some shrewd entities started stacking said ores, but given the abysmal mineral prices at that time, I'd imagine there wasn't much mining going on prior to this. And why would you stack Crokite? If you didn't refine it then, you surely are going to refine it before the patch, otherwise you're stuck with your Nocxiums. Interesting question, though - would ores, which had been mined pre-patch retain their mineral compositions, or is the new changes going to overwrite these? As an example: AFAIR the ships which had been produced prior to the Tiericide still retained the old mineral bill of materials, so you couldn't refine them into moar mineralulz.
Ironically you probably filled those orders from someone in null who should have stockpiled
It'll be interesting to see the outcome of the changes but I doubt it will be the hoped for outcome (damned players are inventive and have there own ideas...) |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
123
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 07:46:18 -
[555] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:GankYou wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Every one saw it coming but the amount available in hisec was limited whereas those in heavily defended nullsec space could think 'hey lets mine the **** out of meg and zyd ores before they become rare and then refine it later when prices spike (with our much better refining rate to boot!)'...
Don't go there. I was getting multi-million in units buy orders filled non-stop at 630 p/u just a day before April 1st. After I bought out the whole Empire on March 20th. It is possible, yes, that after the Fanfest on the 19th of March some shrewd entities started stacking said ores, but given the abysmal mineral prices at that time, I'd imagine there wasn't much mining going on prior to this. And why would you stack Crokite? If you didn't refine it then, you surely are going to refine it before the patch, otherwise you're stuck with your Nocxiums. Interesting question, though - would ores, which had been mined pre-patch retain their mineral compositions, or is the new changes going to overwrite these? As an example: AFAIR the ships which had been produced prior to the Tiericide still retained the old mineral bill of materials, so you couldn't refine them into moar mineralulz. Ironically you probably filled those orders from someone in null who should have stockpiled
Then your theory doesn't work, does it?
Here I am, a Hisecks pirat, plundering the booty and reselling it to the originators.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1104
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 07:52:27 -
[556] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:GankYou wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Every one saw it coming but the amount available in hisec was limited whereas those in heavily defended nullsec space could think 'hey lets mine the **** out of meg and zyd ores before they become rare and then refine it later when prices spike (with our much better refining rate to boot!)'...
Don't go there. I was getting multi-million in units buy orders filled non-stop at 630 p/u just a day before April 1st. After I bought out the whole Empire on March 20th. It is possible, yes, that after the Fanfest on the 19th of March some shrewd entities started stacking said ores, but given the abysmal mineral prices at that time, I'd imagine there wasn't much mining going on prior to this. And why would you stack Crokite? If you didn't refine it then, you surely are going to refine it before the patch, otherwise you're stuck with your Nocxiums. Interesting question, though - would ores, which had been mined pre-patch retain their mineral compositions, or is the new changes going to overwrite these? As an example: AFAIR the ships which had been produced prior to the Tiericide still retained the old mineral bill of materials, so you couldn't refine them into moar mineralulz. Ironically you probably filled those orders from someone in null who should have stockpiled Then your theory doesn't work, does it? Here I am, a Hisecks pirat, plundering the booty and reselling it to the originators.
All theories allow some standard devients.
Deviations sorry...I meant deviations...
|
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
175
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 09:31:15 -
[557] - Quote
HarlyQ wrote:You have obviously never watched ganking then because it does fail. Kinda like your horrible posting. Or like your reading. if ganking fails, bumping doesn't. Being in Skiff does make it harder, but not impossible, which once again proves Skiff has its worth in trolling bad gankers/bumpers, but not in mining. That said, suicide wanking is 100% foolproof, but I guess it's still not 100% gewnproof, as you seem convinced you can find new ways for it to fail, despite it being foolproof.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
|
Odin Shadow
ZC Industries Dark Stripes
9
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 09:35:27 -
[558] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:HarlyQ wrote:You have obviously never watched ganking then because it does fail. Kinda like your horrible posting. Or like your reading. if ganking fails, bumping doesn't. Being in Skiff does make it harder, but not impossible, which once again proves Skiff has its worth in trolling bad gankers/bumpers, but not in mining. That said, suicide wanking is 100% foolproof, but I guess it's still not 100% gewnproof, as you seem convinced you can find new ways for it to fail, despite it being foolproof.
your so bitter. just move to null sec and take advantage of what your calling a massive null sec buff |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
175
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 10:16:44 -
[559] - Quote
Odin Shadow wrote:your so bitter. just move to null sec and take advantage of what your calling a massive null sec buff If only I were a bot fleet...
Otherwise, I'm already in null, but main beneficiary of this change is not a human player.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
|
Odin Shadow
ZC Industries Dark Stripes
10
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 10:22:54 -
[560] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Odin Shadow wrote:your so bitter. just move to null sec and take advantage of what your calling a massive null sec buff If only I were a bot fleet... Otherwise, I'm already in null, but main beneficiary of this change is not a human player.
you have evidence about this right?
|
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
123
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 10:30:21 -
[561] - Quote
Odin Shadow wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:Odin Shadow wrote:your so bitter. just move to null sec and take advantage of what your calling a massive null sec buff If only I were a bot fleet... Otherwise, I'm already in null, but main beneficiary of this change is not a human player. you have evidence about this right?
This is preposterous! Evidence is an old relic concept, which died in the chivalrous middle ages back beyond the Eve wormhole.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Yroc Jannseen
Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation
113
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 11:59:21 -
[562] - Quote
The high sec vs null sec argument in this thread is hilarious.
This change comes at the exact same time that CCP is making it easier for anyone to try their hand at null sec. And yet you have this mentality where certain players seem to believe they were ordained to only ever mine in high sec.
"Rewarding" null sec is somehow unfair because of some mythical barrier that only allows certain players to mine or play in null sec.
It's been a few years since I started playing but I seem to recall staying in high sec and mining or moving out to null as a choice I made.
But maybe I'm wrong and I was in fact sub-consciously manipulated into to heading out to null to be a goon slave, doomed to suck crok and pay tower taxes the rest of my days in Eve. |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
124
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 12:38:49 -
[563] - Quote
Yroc Jannseen wrote: But maybe I'm wrong and I was in fact sub-consciously manipulated into to heading out to null to be a goon slave, doomed to suck crok and pay tower taxes the rest of my days in Eve.
There are wave projectors, man, all placed across the stragetic points on the perimeter of the Empire, man. I've seen one of these installations hidden inside a Dark Ochre roid in Catch region!
They are creating an army of mindless miners... for purposes unknown. It is the end of the beginning!
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1658
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 13:03:18 -
[564] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Querns wrote: The rub on JFs is while they currently enable nullsec to function, it's not without a cost. Currently, I pay 300 isk per m^3 to have things shipped from empire to nullsec, and that is to Deklein, a region that is 2j from empire. If you wanna see some serious highway robbery, check out Black Frog's freight costs. Everything coming into nullsec has that tax applied to it. Meanwhile, highsec enjoys a vast ecosystem of considerably safer and significantly cheaper public courier services.
The changes described in the OP help to lessen the need of nullsec on the almighty jump freighter by not only improving nullsec mineral compositions, but also by making it not such an obviously terrible economic bargain to do so.
Also, gun mining died much earlier, when CCP removed the vast majority of t1 drops from rats. Meta drops refine for a LOT fewer minerals.
Booohooo you have to pay ISK for a service that people ask more of because of the risk. CCP doesn't force you to use Black Frog, You choose to. You could mine the minerals in Deklein (i know :effort:) but you don't. A) Because your miners are not afforded any real protection outside of numbers in local B) Because your alliance does not actively contribute to funding mining and industry (import its better isk/hr right). C) Because your members are at constant risk of AWOX D) Because of the above more people leave NS mining in Deklein and less people venture into it. In regards to gun mining...if it was dead why did CCP just nerf it by 45% last spring? You don't know much about production do you, after all you seem to be under the impression there exists a Blue Print that can build anything in the game if you throw enough isk at it. T1 production walks a very finite line between worth it and not worth it, the changes to production costs make it very much not worth it (if they remain as stands). If this is really a NS change for more self sufficiency, less dependency on JFs from HS, why does the Zydrine and Megacyte change need to exist at all? It doesn't offer anything to their desired change...except prompt people into doing JF runs from NS to HS. Its just nonsense and will only drive T1 production (in LS and HS) down as a result of increase Meta module costs which is going to happen because HS folks only source of Mega and Zydrine is from gun mining. Which means HS producers will drive up the price through consumption and reprocessing, and thats not even the end of it, once folks realize making T1 mods is a waste of cash (which it nearly is right now anyway), then Faction stuff will start to rise in price...which means more LP grinding...how do you get LP? Missions which seed Meta Mods (yay!), but you still need T1 mods...Game of Alts indeed. If folks in NS don't have a mission running alt, or Incursion alt...you should get one, because having the monopoly on readily available T1 mods, gives you a nice foothold in the Faction Mod market. Which ultimately is contradictory to the whole "get people into NS" thing, since doing missions and making T1 mods from your reprocessed loot into faction mods from your earned LP is going to eclipse anything production wise in NS. To the point you will be quite able to afford importing anything you want from HS through Black Frog. This isn't rocket science man. Im happy CCP is tweaking NS ore, but they are being very short sighted with the changes to production requirements. The latter is an unneeded change to accomplish their set goals. We don't use black frog, they're far too expensive. Also, again, in what world do you live in where a JF is ever at risk? They are literally unkillable if you fly them right.
The point behind the blueprint changes (and, much more relevant, the site comp changes) is to boost the price of zyd/mega. The idea is to make nullsec mining be an economic bargain that is actually worth considering, instead of an old gangrenous joke. Right now, nullsec mining doesn't compare to L4, highsec incursion, or ratting income, not even remotely. It will have a better chance post-patch.
The further reduction of scrap metal refines was to remove module compression as a valid way to compress minerals.
You're acting as if the blueprint adjustment is going to create a blasted hellscape from which no zyd/mega is available except that which can be scratched out from melting meta modules. To this, I say "relax." Exports from nullsec will still occur. Just go to the market and buy the trace amounts you need.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1057
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 13:18:45 -
[565] - Quote
Odin Shadow wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:Odin Shadow wrote:your so bitter. just move to null sec and take advantage of what your calling a massive null sec buff If only I were a bot fleet... Otherwise, I'm already in null, but main beneficiary of this change is not a human player. you have evidence about this right? do you accept unreliable personal recollections that don't even claim to extend closer to today than three years ago |
Soldarius
Naliao Inc. Test Alliance Please Ignore
1259
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 14:20:22 -
[566] - Quote
So... I did a thing with my Refinery spreadsheet. There is now a mineral composition ratio comparison sheet. I've copied it and made the sheet available. Let me know what you think.
Sold's Refinery SS
A null result (nothing listed) means there was no mineral content of that type. A 100% result means the mineral content of that ore has not changed. A 0% result means that mineral content for that particular ore was completely eliminated. Skills are set to the standard hisec NPC station refine rate of 72.36% (what used to be perfect). Row 2 is hidden for sorting purposes.
tl;dr: Using current mineral values everything that is being changed except for Crokite will increase in value. Zydrine content is being moved to lo-sec ores. Megacyte is being moved to Arkonor. Isogen content is being increased, but only in losec.
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
|
Mario Putzo
1202
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 15:27:46 -
[567] - Quote
Querns wrote: The point behind the blueprint changes (and, much more relevant, the site comp changes) is to boost the price of zyd/mega. The idea is to make nullsec mining be an economic bargain that is actually worth considering, instead of an old gangrenous joke. Right now, nullsec mining doesn't compare to L4, highsec incursion, or ratting income, not even remotely. It will have a better chance post-patch.
The further reduction of scrap metal refines was to remove module compression as a valid way to compress minerals.
You're acting as if the blueprint adjustment is going to create a blasted hellscape from which no zyd/mega is available except that which can be scratched out from melting meta modules. To this, I say "relax." Exports from nullsec will still occur. Just go to the market and buy the trace amounts you need.
Im not sure why you keep bringing up mining isk/hr when you reply to me. I think its just groovy CCP is attempting to make mining more appealing to folks in NS, as ive said numerous times now. I am talking about module production, and you clearly have no real understanding of how that system works. So i don't know if you are just trolling, or preserving the narrative (hard to tell with Goon forum warriors sometimes). Maybe if you ask Mynnna real nice he will give you a rundown on how T1 production works in relationship vs Meta modules.
Fun fact, most T1 module production is already produced at a net loss...unless you source the material yourself (mining + missions > gun mining, or through some corp organized mining + production venture). The changes to Zyd and Mega only push down the value of T1 mods that much further, simply because their valuation is hard capped by the valuation of Meta mods, which are better modules to use on a ship, and as such in higher demand.
Will it be a wasteland, no, but anyone who understands production won't be producing T1 modules outside personal usage (Faction BPs), in fact, most producers I know left that game last spring when gun mining changes created a glut of meta mods on markets, thus driving down the price cap on T1 mods.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1659
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 15:39:32 -
[568] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Querns wrote: The point behind the blueprint changes (and, much more relevant, the site comp changes) is to boost the price of zyd/mega. The idea is to make nullsec mining be an economic bargain that is actually worth considering, instead of an old gangrenous joke. Right now, nullsec mining doesn't compare to L4, highsec incursion, or ratting income, not even remotely. It will have a better chance post-patch.
The further reduction of scrap metal refines was to remove module compression as a valid way to compress minerals.
You're acting as if the blueprint adjustment is going to create a blasted hellscape from which no zyd/mega is available except that which can be scratched out from melting meta modules. To this, I say "relax." Exports from nullsec will still occur. Just go to the market and buy the trace amounts you need.
Im not sure why you keep bringing up mining isk/hr when you reply to me. I think its just groovy CCP is attempting to make mining more appealing to folks in NS, as ive said numerous times now. I am talking about module production, and you clearly have no real understanding of how that system works. So i don't know if you are just trolling, or preserving the narrative (hard to tell with Goon forum warriors sometimes). Maybe if you ask Mynnna real nice he will give you a rundown on how T1 production works in relationship vs Meta modules. Fun fact, most T1 module production is already produced at a net loss...unless you source the material yourself (mining + missions > gun mining, or through some corp organized mining + production venture). The changes to Zyd and Mega only push down the value of T1 mods that much further, simply because their valuation is hard capped by the valuation of Meta mods, which are better modules to use on a ship, and as such in higher demand. Will it be a wasteland, no, but anyone who understands production won't be producing T1 modules outside personal usage (Faction BPs), in fact, most producers I know left that game last spring when gun mining changes created a glut of meta mods on markets, thus driving down the price cap on T1 mods. Aha, I figured it out. You're one of those sorts that think "if I mine it, it's free." No wonder your opinions on things are so disconnected from reality.
T1 Production cannot at once be done at a net loss and be profitable if you mine the material yourself (by mining laser or by shooting red crosses.) You will make more money selling minerals than you would building the T1 module. The secret is that minerals are just as fungible as modules. Just sell the minerals you acquire. It is not hard to understand.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
770
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 15:53:50 -
[569] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:GankYou wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:I'm also uncomfortable that players have been able to invest heavily in a commodity available in only one section of space. You mean like all of the Fleet, Navy, Federation issue ships, modules and ammo? HS + LS = 2.
Nope, actual formula is (HS + LS) / 4 Empires = 0.5 , or one Jita trade alt.
"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves."
The Trial - Franz Kafka-á
|
Mario Putzo
1202
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 16:00:00 -
[570] - Quote
Querns wrote: Aha, I figured it out. You're one of those sorts that think "if I mine it, it's free." No wonder your opinions on things are so disconnected from reality.
T1 Production cannot at once be done at a net loss and be profitable if you mine the material yourself (by mining laser or by shooting red crosses.) You will make more money selling minerals than you would building the T1 module. The secret is that minerals are just as fungible as modules. Just sell the minerals you acquire. It is not hard to understand.
Not sure how you got that out of what I said, since i didn't claim profitability at all. (funny thing about production is it doesn't actually impact your time available in the game. Set up a run...do whatever the **** you want while it builds).
The second part of your post is enlightening though, and I suppose makes my argument for me. It is more profitable to just sell minerals than turn them into T1 mods, and that is today, after the changes this will only be more true and affect more T1 modules. But hey working as intended right...T1 production is ****, so lets make it more ****!. Glad you finally seem to be understanding the dilemma T1 production faces. |
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1659
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 16:04:50 -
[571] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Querns wrote: Aha, I figured it out. You're one of those sorts that think "if I mine it, it's free." No wonder your opinions on things are so disconnected from reality.
T1 Production cannot at once be done at a net loss and be profitable if you mine the material yourself (by mining laser or by shooting red crosses.) You will make more money selling minerals than you would building the T1 module. The secret is that minerals are just as fungible as modules. Just sell the minerals you acquire. It is not hard to understand.
Not sure how you got that out of what I said, since i didn't claim profitability at all. (funny thing about production is it doesn't actually impact your time available in the game. Set up a run...do whatever the **** you want while it builds). The second part of your post is enlightening though, and I suppose makes my argument for me. It is more profitable to just sell minerals than turn them into T1 mods, and that is today, after the changes this will only be more true and affect more T1 modules. But hey working as intended right...T1 production is ****, so lets make it more ****!. Glad you finally seem to be understanding the dilemma T1 production faces. So... you're doing production that you KNOW to be unprofitable? :psyduck:
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1659
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 16:08:36 -
[572] - Quote
Also, T1 production can be done at a profit if you use a POS and do enough runs to fully take advantage of the -2% bonus.
e: Taking random samples from eve-industry, I am seeing more T1 things that are profitable to make than not, even without the POS ME bonus.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1714
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 16:16:47 -
[573] - Quote
Querns wrote:Also, T1 production can be done at a profit if you use a POS and do enough runs to fully take advantage of the -2% bonus.
e: Taking random samples from eve-industry, I am seeing more T1 things that are profitable to make than not, even without the POS ME bonus.
It won't support as much production but selling outside of Jita can help turn a profit even if producing in a station. |
Mario Putzo
1202
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 16:21:43 -
[574] - Quote
Querns wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Querns wrote: Aha, I figured it out. You're one of those sorts that think "if I mine it, it's free." No wonder your opinions on things are so disconnected from reality.
T1 Production cannot at once be done at a net loss and be profitable if you mine the material yourself (by mining laser or by shooting red crosses.) You will make more money selling minerals than you would building the T1 module. The secret is that minerals are just as fungible as modules. Just sell the minerals you acquire. It is not hard to understand.
Not sure how you got that out of what I said, since i didn't claim profitability at all. (funny thing about production is it doesn't actually impact your time available in the game. Set up a run...do whatever the **** you want while it builds). The second part of your post is enlightening though, and I suppose makes my argument for me. It is more profitable to just sell minerals than turn them into T1 mods, and that is today, after the changes this will only be more true and affect more T1 modules. But hey working as intended right...T1 production is ****, so lets make it more ****!. Glad you finally seem to be understanding the dilemma T1 production faces. So... you're doing production that you KNOW to be unprofitable? :psyduck:
Oh **** no, why would I do something stupid like that, I have at least a shred of dignity in me somewhere. I sell meta modules I get from missions...they sell for more and don't cost me anything extra since I am doing missions anyway...hoover up on an alt unload into market easy peasy. I build T2 **** and ships, because why the **** bother with anything else since it doesn't actually turn profit for time invested.
T1 module production SHOULD be profitable though, and the change to Zyd and Mega inputs makes it even worse off than today. Which is bad for the game in the long run. Especially for promoting Industry to new folks (or old folks looking for something new). Production is already limiting for fresh faces, you need to research BPOs, you need a sustainable capital source for mineral procurement, pretty sad when entry level production yields a net loss across the majority of modules. I can't think of any other profession in the game whose first steps result in you losing money.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1659
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 16:45:47 -
[575] - Quote
"Put off the change until every niggling real or imagined flaw is resolved" is one of the oldest gaffes in the book.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down Tactical Narcotics Team
76
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 16:46:35 -
[576] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote: T1 module production SHOULD be profitable though, and the change to Zyd and Mega inputs makes it even worse off than today. Which is bad for the game in the long run. Especially for promoting Industry to new folks (or old folks looking for something new). Production is already limiting for fresh faces, you need to research BPOs, you need a sustainable capital source for mineral procurement, pretty sad when entry level production yields a net loss across the majority of modules. I can't think of any other profession in the game whose first steps result in you losing money.
I could see this BP tweak being viable in the future, but CCP should hold off until they finish with module tiericide. As it stands meta mods are just plain more useful, more in demand and thus more profitable. They need to make T1 mods actually desired for use instead of just a baseline item that rookie pilots fit because they can't afford the higher meta items.
Why would you not pass the price of increased price on to the consumer. There were be a period where there is a back stock of items that were built at a lower cost but that stock will eventually dry up and a new price point will be reached where you are not taking a loss with the increased minerals. I am failing to see how you are missing this. |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1058
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 16:47:55 -
[577] - Quote
Querns wrote:"Put off the change until every niggling real or imagined flaw is resolved" is one of the oldest gaffes in the book. we cannot attempot to cancer until we have put ice on every stubbed toe |
Mario Putzo
1202
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 16:50:15 -
[578] - Quote
Fredric Wolf wrote:Mario Putzo wrote: T1 module production SHOULD be profitable though, and the change to Zyd and Mega inputs makes it even worse off than today. Which is bad for the game in the long run. Especially for promoting Industry to new folks (or old folks looking for something new). Production is already limiting for fresh faces, you need to research BPOs, you need a sustainable capital source for mineral procurement, pretty sad when entry level production yields a net loss across the majority of modules. I can't think of any other profession in the game whose first steps result in you losing money.
I could see this BP tweak being viable in the future, but CCP should hold off until they finish with module tiericide. As it stands meta mods are just plain more useful, more in demand and thus more profitable. They need to make T1 mods actually desired for use instead of just a baseline item that rookie pilots fit because they can't afford the higher meta items.
Why would you not pass the price of increased price on to the consumer. There were be a period where there is a back stock of items that were built at a lower cost but that stock will eventually dry up and a new price point will be reached where you are not taking a loss with the increased minerals. I am failing to see how you are missing this.
Because the pricing of T1 modules is hard capped by the cost of Meta Modules not hard to understand really. |
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down Tactical Narcotics Team
76
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 16:55:50 -
[579] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Fredric Wolf wrote:Mario Putzo wrote: T1 module production SHOULD be profitable though, and the change to Zyd and Mega inputs makes it even worse off than today. Which is bad for the game in the long run. Especially for promoting Industry to new folks (or old folks looking for something new). Production is already limiting for fresh faces, you need to research BPOs, you need a sustainable capital source for mineral procurement, pretty sad when entry level production yields a net loss across the majority of modules. I can't think of any other profession in the game whose first steps result in you losing money.
I could see this BP tweak being viable in the future, but CCP should hold off until they finish with module tiericide. As it stands meta mods are just plain more useful, more in demand and thus more profitable. They need to make T1 mods actually desired for use instead of just a baseline item that rookie pilots fit because they can't afford the higher meta items.
Why would you not pass the price of increased price on to the consumer. There were be a period where there is a back stock of items that were built at a lower cost but that stock will eventually dry up and a new price point will be reached where you are not taking a loss with the increased minerals. I am failing to see how you are missing this. Because the pricing of T1 modules is hard capped by the cost of Meta Modules not hard to understand really.
Price is never capped by other items only the volume they are moved |
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
772
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 16:57:48 -
[580] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:
Because the pricing of T1 modules is hard capped by the cost of Meta Modules not hard to understand really.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves."
The Trial - Franz Kafka-á
|
|
Mario Putzo
1202
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 17:06:45 -
[581] - Quote
Fredric Wolf wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Fredric Wolf wrote:Mario Putzo wrote: T1 module production SHOULD be profitable though, and the change to Zyd and Mega inputs makes it even worse off than today. Which is bad for the game in the long run. Especially for promoting Industry to new folks (or old folks looking for something new). Production is already limiting for fresh faces, you need to research BPOs, you need a sustainable capital source for mineral procurement, pretty sad when entry level production yields a net loss across the majority of modules. I can't think of any other profession in the game whose first steps result in you losing money.
I could see this BP tweak being viable in the future, but CCP should hold off until they finish with module tiericide. As it stands meta mods are just plain more useful, more in demand and thus more profitable. They need to make T1 mods actually desired for use instead of just a baseline item that rookie pilots fit because they can't afford the higher meta items.
Why would you not pass the price of increased price on to the consumer. There were be a period where there is a back stock of items that were built at a lower cost but that stock will eventually dry up and a new price point will be reached where you are not taking a loss with the increased minerals. I am failing to see how you are missing this. Because the pricing of T1 modules is hard capped by the cost of Meta Modules not hard to understand really. Price is never capped by other items only the volume they are moved
It most certainly is capped. Why would a customer pay more for an item that is inferior in mostly every way? T1 mods require more fitting, for less result (in most cases) compared to their meta equivalents. Only a moron would buy an inferior product for more money. Thus the pricing is hard capped because meta mods are just plain better overall.
Mega Pulse 1 vs Mega Modulated Pulse for example.
CPU, 50/40 Activation, 35/28.8 Optimal 21000/25200 DMGMOD 3/3.6
With all else being the same...why would anyone ever buy Mega Pulse 1 when Mega Modulated is superior? They wouldn't, unless they can't afford Mega Modulated...in which case rolling the cost increase into the price is irrelevant, since Mega Pulse is capped at the cost of Mega Modulated. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1660
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 17:09:33 -
[582] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote: It most certainly is capped. Why would a customer pay more for an item that is inferior in mostly every way?
If only there was another use for T1 modules besides fitting them to ships. If only...
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Mario Putzo
1202
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 17:17:46 -
[583] - Quote
Querns wrote:Mario Putzo wrote: It most certainly is capped. Why would a customer pay more for an item that is inferior in mostly every way?
If only there was another use for T1 modules besides fitting them to ships. If only...
Working as intended right! Top kek.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1660
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 17:23:02 -
[584] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Querns wrote:Mario Putzo wrote: It most certainly is capped. Why would a customer pay more for an item that is inferior in mostly every way?
If only there was another use for T1 modules besides fitting them to ships. If only... Working as intended right! Top kek. You really don't know what it is, do you?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2778
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 17:26:57 -
[585] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Querns wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: I have been watching this thread since page 12...and goddamn Querns, GankYou, Anhenka, et. al. have been rope-a-doping just about all the high sec people.
Well done.....and if you are part of the et. al., sorry don't mean to give short shrift to your contributions they are good too. Mr Omniblivion, Rowells, EvilweaselSA, Gallowmere, and HarlyQ to name some of the people with good comments.
It's what I do. The dirty secret here is that none of these people are actually "high sec people" GÇö they're anti-nullsec people. Why would I be anti-nullsec? I believe the game needs every region to be healthy and draw different kinds of players to the game. I'm just not convinced that this change is a great idea. This actually gets reinforced by the vociferous support from those who will benefit the most. I'm also uncomfortable that players have been able to invest heavily in a commodity available in only one section of space. That smacks of insider trading, especially when you keep mentioning that there is an over abundance of high ends in null compared to low ends. This is tantamount to throwing a stack of ISK at those who already have (or have much easier access to) those high ends.
That is just it, regions (high, low, null) being healthy does not mean they are all the same. High does not have moon goo nor does it have high end ores. It has been explained why this is so, it was done this way on purpose.
Down the road CCP wants to nerf JFs. CCP would like to increase player density in null as well. While it can do the former with or without a carrot, for the latter is must do it with a carrot. And even just doing the former by itself will likely just mean null becomes a complete wasteland in the outer regions by and large. Further, CCP does not want to buff anomalies as it will mean way, way too much isk flowing into the economy. So what to do....oh wait, how about mining. Well given the current conditions that is not viable. Hence the Devblog.
Here is why many of the HS people are complaining. They see this change as resulting in less demand for low ends since NS will be better able to source them there. Less demand means a lower price all other things considered. I get that, but what one should consider is...the current prices are not going to sustain things like Fozziesov, JF nerfs, and increased player density in null. And keep in mind that things like Fozziesov is not very popular with too many null sec residents. Still, taking that and these other goals that CCP is intent on implementing...we cannot keep things as they currently are and have a healthy game.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Mario Putzo
1203
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 17:34:18 -
[586] - Quote
Querns wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Querns wrote:Mario Putzo wrote: It most certainly is capped. Why would a customer pay more for an item that is inferior in mostly every way?
If only there was another use for T1 modules besides fitting them to ships. If only... Working as intended right! Top kek. You really don't know what it is, do you?
There are a few things that T1 mods are used for, T2 production springs to mind (probably the biggest consumer of T1 mods). But if someone is into T2 production then (myself as an example) likely it will be cheaper for them to crank out their own T1 module using their likely researched |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2778
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 17:40:35 -
[587] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Querns wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Querns wrote:Mario Putzo wrote: It most certainly is capped. Why would a customer pay more for an item that is inferior in mostly every way?
If only there was another use for T1 modules besides fitting them to ships. If only... Working as intended right! Top kek. You really don't know what it is, do you? There are a few things that T1 mods are used for, T2 production springs to mind (probably the biggest consumer of T1 mods). But if someone is into T2 production then (myself as an example) likely it will be cheaper for them to crank out their own T1 module using their likely researched BPO. So I don't see the benefit to T1 Production here either. Set up BPO to run X number of T1 mods based on the required amount from your T2 BPC...why use a middleman?
Opportunity cost. I do T2 production, but keeping in mind opportunity costs, I don't see the "savings" by making my own T1 modules and robotics as a real savings or increasing the profit margins. I could also just try to sell those items. Thing is where I build I don't have much of a T1 market...so I build that stuff. Similarly with the PI stuff. Plus it limits transport costs and time...which are legit savings/increase to profits.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2778
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 17:46:40 -
[588] - Quote
Yroc Jannseen wrote:The high sec vs null sec argument in this thread is hilarious.
This change comes at the exact same time that CCP is making it easier for anyone to try their hand at null sec. And yet you have this mentality where certain players seem to believe they were ordained to only ever mine in high sec.
"Rewarding" null sec is somehow unfair because of some mythical barrier that only allows certain players to mine or play in null sec.
It's been a few years since I started playing but I seem to recall staying in high sec and mining or moving out to null as a choice I made.
But maybe I'm wrong and I was in fact sub-consciously manipulated into to heading out to null to be a goon slave, doomed to suck crok and pay tower taxes the rest of my days in Eve.
There is that as well. By increasing player density in null, the idea will be that current sov holding alliances will pull inwards...this will free up currently held space. Meaning, there is opportunity for people to move into those vacant systems and reap the rewards they are currently complaining about.
Of course, that will mean effort...significant effort over living in HS where you can do just fine even staying in a Noob corp and not doing anything with anyone else in the game. As was pointed out, 200 guys going out and whacking a d**kstar for an hour or more means you have 200 or more man hours there. That is alot of effort. What should that alliance get for that effort? A similar income as a guy who semi-afk mines or does t2 invention in HS and doesn't interact with anyone in the game ever? How about "no" as an answer?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2778
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 18:09:41 -
[589] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Amusing idea. But, what happens if someone flips the can? Does the mining ship just stop moving or does it sail off out of the belt? Same as orbiting a ship that gets popped. Sail out. I'm sure he doesn't mind doing it with style in his Skiff. EvilweaselSA wrote: ladies and gentlemen, our mining expert, who doesn't know how much of a benefit a skiff has over a procurer, who believes the only way to mine safely is to fit for max yield, who can't figure out how to use a can, and who has no idea that it's not 2012
oh, also, he believes that regions that have more bot miners would have more expensive trit than regions that had less bot miners in nullsec, for some reason that is beyond us mortals
Usual gewnspeak, trying to troll, ignoring everything, typical density and no-brain show. Once again, for special people, and those who are below them, and gewns who are below those: 1) There are no meaningful advantages of Skiff over Procurer. 2) If something attacks the miner and it's not a low-dps rat, the miner is dead, no matter what he pilots. 3) The only defense against said attack is lessen the exposure. Which means mine for less time, compensating with efficiency. 4) Cans are cretin magnets. Use them to bring 1001 ganktards to your belt. Orbiting doesn't work since you're dead no matter what you do if you're hit.
Just did some quick and simple math....keep in mind the simple part---i.e. I didn't sit down and figure damage types, resists, just back of the envelope kind of thing....
Skiff tanked out (needs a 2% cpu implant) with an orca boosting shields gets 133,800 ehp. So, assuming the gank team has to kill you in 18 seconds and they have all the relevant skills my quick estimate was 12 guys minimum for that gank. If you see them coming...and you overheat your shield modules then 161,839 ehp and now they'll need 14 guys, minimum. Want to make double damn sure, 15-16 dudes in catalysts.
And yeah, your mining yield wont be that great either...but better than your mining yield if your ship is dead.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
587
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 20:26:54 -
[590] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Skiff tanked out (needs a 2% cpu implant) with an orca boosting shields gets 133,800 ehp. So, assuming the gank team has to kill you in 18 seconds and they have all the relevant skills my quick estimate was 12 guys minimum for that gank. If you see them coming...and you overheat your shield modules then 161,839 ehp and now they'll need 14 guys, minimum. Want to make double damn sure, 15-16 dudes in catalysts. Actually, in this particular case, you'd probably want to upship to cruisers, or maybe a BC, rather than dessies.
However, in high sec, you rarely run across a fully tanked Skiff - most of them compromise the tank by having some sort of mining upgrade somewhere in the fit. And, they almost never overheat - high sec miners tend to be simi-AFK, probably haven't trained up Thermodynamics, and/or simply forget (or don't know) how to overheat their modules. Most high sec miners have very limited experience with PVP, you know. |
|
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
175
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 20:46:33 -
[591] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Amusing idea. But, what happens if someone flips the can? Does the mining ship just stop moving or does it sail off out of the belt? Same as orbiting a ship that gets popped. Sail out. I'm sure he doesn't mind doing it with style in his Skiff. EvilweaselSA wrote: ladies and gentlemen, our mining expert, who doesn't know how much of a benefit a skiff has over a procurer, who believes the only way to mine safely is to fit for max yield, who can't figure out how to use a can, and who has no idea that it's not 2012
oh, also, he believes that regions that have more bot miners would have more expensive trit than regions that had less bot miners in nullsec, for some reason that is beyond us mortals
Usual gewnspeak, trying to troll, ignoring everything, typical density and no-brain show. Once again, for special people, and those who are below them, and gewns who are below those: 1) There are no meaningful advantages of Skiff over Procurer. 2) If something attacks the miner and it's not a low-dps rat, the miner is dead, no matter what he pilots. 3) The only defense against said attack is lessen the exposure. Which means mine for less time, compensating with efficiency. 4) Cans are cretin magnets. Use them to bring 1001 ganktards to your belt. Orbiting doesn't work since you're dead no matter what you do if you're hit. Just did some quick and simple math....keep in mind the simple part---i.e. I didn't sit down and figure damage types, resists, just back of the envelope kind of thing.... Skiff tanked out (needs a 2% cpu implant) with an orca boosting shields gets 133,800 ehp. So, assuming the gank team has to kill you in 18 seconds and they have all the relevant skills my quick estimate was 12 guys minimum for that gank. If you see them coming...and you overheat your shield modules then 161,839 ehp and now they'll need 14 guys, minimum. Want to make double damn sure, 15-16 dudes in catalysts. And yeah, your mining yield wont be that great either...but better than your mining yield if your ship is dead.
Or they just bump you and now your Skiff is useless. If only you were in the actual barge, you'd be done by the time they arrive and not there anymore, but no, gotta sit there and troll with Skiffs.
Now without sarcasm, I know Skiff is an efficient solution to troll gankbears. Unfortunately, that's the only thing it's efficient with. You can troll in it, and it fares well, you try to mine in it - you are wrong.
Mining yield of a Covetor over Skiff will pay off the price of a Covetor in about 3-5 hours. So, every 3-5 hours you mine in Skiff, you LOSE a Covetor. That's why Skiff is u-n-v-i-a-b-l-e - trying to mine in it is self-ganking a Covetor every 3-5 hours. Maybe this analogy will get through to you, if numbers are so difficult concept to grasp for you.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
|
Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1465
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 21:02:49 -
[592] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Mining yield of a Covetor over Skiff will pay off the price of a Covetor in about 3-5 hours. So, every 3-5 hours you mine in Skiff, you LOSE a Covetor. That's why Skiff is u-n-v-i-a-b-l-e - trying to mine in it is self-ganking a Covetor every 3-5 hours. Maybe this analogy will get through to you, if numbers are so difficult concept to grasp for you.
Ok, I really was not planning to get involved again, but let's be clear: This is an entirely useless statement.
If you wanted to go this route the appropriate calculation should have been:
(Covertor Isk Cost / (Average number of hours between being suicide ganked in a Covetor) - ((Covetor Mining Rate - Skiff Mining Rate) Isk/Hr)) = X
If X is greater than 0, Covetor mining is economical compared to skiffs. If it is negative, Skiff is the winner.
Second, at a quick glance, EFT tells me that a Covetor gets almost exactly 20% yield more than a Skiff, while a fully fit Covetor costs 50 million.
So are you seriously telling me the 20% increase from Skiff to Covetor allows you to pay off a 50 mil isk Covetor in 3-5 hours of mining?
That means the skiff in highsec is pulling in 50-83 million an hour! WHAT? That doesn't resemble the 20 million isk/hour numbers I hear tossed around all the time by highsec miners!
I CALL COMPLETE AND UTTER BULLSHIT. ALTHOUGH I FORGIVE YOU, SINCE Basil Pupkin wrote:numbers are so difficult to grasp.
|
Hippinse
University of Caille Gallente Federation
67
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 21:06:49 -
[593] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:So we as nullsec entities run out of game recruitment programs to get thousands of brand new players into eve online. We get them directly into nullsec and try to direct them to easy activities that they can do within a few days. Mining is the worst income per hour activity in the game at this point for an individual.
CCP announces a new change that will fix certain rocks to be rare and more valuable (namely ark) that a new player could cherry pick for some meaningful income. Also, these changes will allow a new player in null to be able to mine their own minerals in null to produce meaningful amounts of t1 items without having to import raw minerals or export a gigantic surplus of high end minerals that they can't use.
Yet- there are people that don't understand the changes that are claiming that this is an unfair boost to nullsec.
All I'm sayin is that highsec hates new players
Just because you're recruiting new players doesn't mean that all the new players are in null. Very nice "think of the children" to try to discredit anyone who isn't you, though. (bonus points for the "anyone who disagrees doesn't understand", and using sweeping generalities while complaining about anything anyone else says that you can twist into a generality.)
|
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
175
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 21:17:42 -
[594] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:Mining yield of a Covetor over Skiff will pay off the price of a Covetor in about 3-5 hours. So, every 3-5 hours you mine in Skiff, you LOSE a Covetor. That's why Skiff is u-n-v-i-a-b-l-e - trying to mine in it is self-ganking a Covetor every 3-5 hours. Maybe this analogy will get through to you, if numbers are so difficult concept to grasp for you. Ok, I really was not planning to get involved again, but let's be clear: This is an entirely useless statement. If you wanted to go this route the appropriate calculation should have been: (Covertor Isk Cost / (Average number of hours between being suicide ganked in a Covetor) - ((Covetor Mining Rate - Skiff Mining Rate) Isk/Hr)) = X If X is greater than 0, Covetor mining is economical compared to skiffs. If it is negative, Skiff is the winner. Second, at a quick glance, EFT tells me that a Covetor gets almost exactly 20% yield more than a Skiff, while a fully fit Covetor costs 50 million. So are you seriously telling me the 20% increase from Skiff to Covetor allows you to pay off a 50 mil isk Covetor in 3-5 hours of mining? That means the skiff in highsec is pulling in 50-83 million an hour! WHAT? That doesn't resemble the 20 million isk/hour numbers I hear tossed around all the time by highsec miners! I CALL COMPLETE AND UTTER BULLSHIT. ALTHOUGH I FORGIVE YOU, SINCE Basil Pupkin wrote:numbers are so difficult to grasp.
I call your bullshit and raise you a numerical disability.
First, I never lost a barge. Not even once. Put infinity in your (Average number of hours between being suicide ganked in a Covetor) variable and enjoy.
Second, BEFORE the announcement of change, mining hovered at 35-40 million ISK per hour (full yield, orca buffs, scordite), 20% of that in 5 hours is 100%, adding here that your full fit Covetor at 50 million is overpriced (base hull 32 + 3x3 modulated strip miners + 2x0.5 MLU = 42, and rigs are dirt cheap) and 20% advantage is over yield Skiff as opposed to proposed tank Skiff, not even mentioning skillpoint requirements difference, I say that I were completely right.
5 hours is the perfect case, but knowing that Skiff loses a lot more ore on an incomplete cycle and while you switch targets, and there are things like rorqual buffs and pre-announcement gneiss, 3 hours is the opposite case, also quite right.
There is a reason only numerically enabled people can mine.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
|
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2330
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 21:31:15 -
[595] - Quote
I'm on page 30 of CODE. killboard and i havent found a single skiff kill/loss. Can anyone help me? |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1662
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 21:33:35 -
[596] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote: I call your bullshit and raise you a numerical disability.
First, I never lost a barge. Not even once. Put infinity in your (Average number of hours between being suicide ganked in a Covetor) variable and enjoy.
Second, BEFORE the announcement of change, mining hovered at 35-40 million ISK per hour (full yield, orca buffs, scordite), 20% of that in 5 hours is 100%, adding here that your full fit Covetor at 50 million is overpriced (base hull 32 + 3x3 modulated strip miners + 2x0.5 MLU = 42, and rigs are dirt cheap) and 20% advantage is over yield Skiff as opposed to proposed tank Skiff, not even mentioning skillpoint requirements difference, I say that I were completely right.
5 hours is the perfect case, but knowing that Skiff loses a lot more ore on an incomplete cycle and while you switch targets, and there are things like rorqual buffs and pre-announcement gneiss, 3 hours is the opposite case, also quite right.
There is a reason only numerically enabled people can mine.
Yeah, I call bullshit on 40m isk/hr.
Prices for trit/pyer have not changed significantly since any of the announcements, so using modern numbers is fine here. A covetor fit for full yield and perfect orca bonuses only hits 2485 m^3/minute: http://i.imgur.com/qPP0zAs.jpg
Plug that into eve-industry.org's mining profit calculator: http://i.imgur.com/cow0jvt.png?1
Less than 30m isk/hr, and that relies on refining at a POS for the extra yield. This is also an optimistic figure due to the occasional incomplete cycle.
This is a 25% reduction in what you were claiming.
Also, a yield skiff has 90k EHP (before shield bonuses), and a yield of 2229, which is within 10% of the covetor. This works out to a 3m isk/hr yield bonus for the covetor. (It turns out low slots don't really add to tank all that much.) This works out to 14 hours of mining to "self-gank" a covetor.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1467
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 21:46:10 -
[597] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote: I call your bullshit and raise you a numerical disability.
First, I never lost a barge. Not even once. Put infinity in your (Average number of hours between being suicide ganked in a Covetor) variable and enjoy.
Second, BEFORE the announcement of change, mining hovered at 35-40 million ISK per hour (full yield, orca buffs, scordite), 20% of that in 5 hours is 100%, adding here that your full fit Covetor at 50 million is overpriced (base hull 32 + 3x3 modulated strip miners + 2x0.5 MLU = 42, and rigs are dirt cheap) and 20% advantage is over yield Skiff as opposed to proposed tank Skiff, not even mentioning skillpoint requirements difference, I say that I were completely right.
5 hours is the perfect case, but knowing that Skiff loses a lot more ore on an incomplete cycle and while you switch targets, and there are things like rorqual buffs and pre-announcement gneiss, 3 hours is the opposite case, also quite right.
There is a reason only numerically enabled people can mine.
Do you even play? Honestly? "Never lost a barge" means nothing when you don't log in. Especially when a quick glance at Zkill shows me 30 dead covetors dead today alone.
Your numbers literally assume the miner never dies while in a Covetor which is a favorite target for ganking behind Mack/Hulks. you assume that the ship has perfect orca boosts and does absolutely nothing but mine the most valuable highsec mineral every single cycle, without waste, without warping, instantly ending the cycle and swapping to a new Scordite rock every time a rock would be depleted.
You then go on to say that the skiff has huge inefficiencies and that drives the difference further, while still comparing the altered skiff numbers to the perfect theoretical Covetor numbers. What the serious ****?
1x Covetor @ 32 Mil = 32 Mil 3x Modulated Strip Miner II's @ 3.2 Mil = 9.6 Mil 3x Scordite Mining Crystal II's @ .13 Mil = .5 Mil 1x DCU II @ .35 Mil = .35 Mil. 1 MLU II @ .5 Mil = .5 Mil. 3x Medium Core Defense Field Extenders @ 1.5 Mil = 4.5 Mil 10x Warrior I's = Free 1x Survey scanner = Free __________________________________ 32 + 9.6+.5+.35+.5+4.5 = 47.45 Mil
If you use t2 light drones and have a set of replacement crystals, it hits 49.5 Mil. My bad, I was off by 500k.
And no, the 20% difference was between them with no MLU's. If we are going to use MLU's then the difference shrinks, since the Covetor is likely to use 1 MLU and one 1 DCU while the Skiff uses 2 MLU and 1 DCU. At which point it's a 12 % difference, not 20%. |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
587
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 22:25:45 -
[598] - Quote
Rowells wrote:I'm on page 30 of CODE. killboard and i havent found a single skiff kill/loss. Can anyone help me? Buried in the noise. The fail-tank Retrivers, Macks, Covs and Hulks are a lot easier to kill with only 1-2 dessies and with much less prep time, so you'll see a ton more of them for each Skiff kill. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1662
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 22:31:35 -
[599] - Quote
Looking at skiff losses overall is pretty easy: https://zkillboard.com/ship/22546/losses/
Going back a few pages, I see one suicide gank in highsec by Karmafleet ( :shobon: ) on a hilariously anti-tanked skiff, and another by three taloses (and at 70m a pop, they lost money on that gank. I hope it was worth it!) The vast majority of Skiff losses are in nullsec.
Meanwhile: https://zkillboard.com/ship/17478/
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
537
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 22:36:10 -
[600] - Quote
CCP Fozzie
I know there has been a lot of random junk in this thread, but hopefully you're still reading. It's time for me to give some constructive feedback for your consideration.
Mercoxit
I believe that we need a strong candidate to make cherry picking (or "Ninja Mining") a profession, and Mercoxit would serve that purpose greatly. Morphite is also greatly oversupplied at the moment and is a near negligible cost in t2 equipment. Therefore, I'm suggesting that we completely remove Mercoxit from all ore anoms that spawn from nullsec industrial upgrades. Here's why:
Oversupply As nullsec mining becomes more worthwhile, more people will be stripping and cycling ore anomalies. With a consistent cycling of belts, the supply of Mercoxit/Morphite will continue to increase, further dunking the price. Mercoxit alone is large (40m3), but compressed Mercoxit is only 0.1 m3 (wtf?), so it is exceptionally easy to get to an upgraded refinery and ship to empire. This means that most mercoxit mined will easily get to market.
Low Income per Hour While an individual Mercoxit rock is "valuable", Mercoxit is 40m3 per unit. Furthermore, Mercoxit is mined significantly slower than any other ore.
A fully boosted hulk mines ore at about 3421 m3/min excluding drones.
A fully boosted hulk with mercoxit rig mines Mercoxit at about 2165 m3/min (drones are not possible). This means that you're mining about 54 units of mercoxit a minute in a hulk, equating to approximately 8262 units of morphite every hour- approximately 57 mil per hour assuming you have a hauler.
As the refine rate of mercoxit increases from 293->300 and as the overall supply increases, that isk per hour will fall even further. A max hulk pilot can make upwards of 70 mil isk/hr on other ores with existing prices. (note: not many people use hulks in null because of clicks and risk)
Suggestion Remove mercoxit from all ore anomalies. Leave mercoxit in static belts and in scannable sites in nullsec. Reduce the m3 on mercoxit to a reasonable size that allows for smaller (ninja) ships to mine it. Perhaps give a mercoxit mining bonus to mining frigates.
Potential Results In making those changes, Mercoxit will turn cherry picking into a profession. There will be meaningful rewards in any player traversing nullsec looking for Mercoxit deposits and scan-able sites with Mercoxit. There are no sites that currently are a huge "win" for a miner or explorer- but making this change would enable the mining types to have "jackpots" where they have potential to make some serious ISK mining Mercoxit. This would also make it worthwhile for anyone in the game to scan down wormholes and seek out mercoxit in wh space- even for highsec miners.
Arkonor/Bistot I would not consider these ores of being worthy of ninja-mining even with the upcoming changes. There will be a consistent supply of Arkonor/Bistot coming from ore anoms, and without mining boosts, the income of ninja mining Arkonor and Bistot would still be pretty low for an individual account.
A change such as the above would give all players an opportunity to do some high risk ninja-mining that would lead to greater rewards, rather than making all mining a rather repetitive task with no real chance of "hitting it big".
Thanks to Querns for helping with this data. |
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1662
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 22:41:03 -
[601] - Quote
Seconding the idea that Mercoxit live only in static belts and randomly-spawned anomalies. Making this mineral rarer will help get it out of the dumpster it is currently in.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1061
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 23:02:32 -
[602] - Quote
this is a good post, it's great what thinking can get done while we're not busy hyperdunking a guy who uses basic mathematical and gameplay errors like a comma in his rants about how stupid the goonies are |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2331
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 23:13:39 -
[603] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:about how stupid the gewnies are FTFY |
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Shadow of xXDEATHXx
179
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 23:19:42 -
[604] - Quote
they have basically done this.
they have reduced the amount of mercoxit in the anomaly belts by 85% while increasing the yield by 2%. people who roll the belts will no longer mine the 10k per large belt, the 35k in the enorm or the 35k per colossal. so now, instead of producing 2.8m units of excess per month, we will now produce between 200 and 450k dependant on which belts are mined,. this will drastically reduce the supply to highsec, causing the price to climb.
you can already see it climbing, I wouldn't be surprised if it hits 12 or 14k by year end, and actually be worth hunting to mine in quantity. |
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
537
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 23:22:51 -
[605] - Quote
The problem is that there is now much more incentive to mine and cycle anoms, which will counteract that reduction in supply of mercoxit. Rather than leave smaller portions in existing anoms, they should make mercoxit something that can only be found via exploration or static belts, making mercoxit mining its own profession. |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1061
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 23:36:48 -
[606] - Quote
Ncc 1709 wrote:they have basically done this. they have reduced the amount of mercoxit in the anomaly belts by 85% while increasing the yield by 2%. people who roll the belts will no longer mine the 10k per large belt, the 35k in the enorm or the 35k per colossal. so now, instead of producing 2.8m units of excess per month, we will now produce between 200 and 450k dependant on which belts are mined,. this will drastically reduce the supply to highsec, causing the price to climb. you can already see it climbing, I wouldn't be surprised if it hits 12 or 14k by year end, and actually be worth hunting to mine in quantity.
You're looking at merely 2x of what's needed instead of 20x, which is sort of a thing but not much of one, then what omni said |
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Shadow of xXDEATHXx
179
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 23:38:29 -
[607] - Quote
more incentive? they increased the m3 of the 3 bigger anoms by a lot. the large was 7m before, its 11m after, the xl was 12m before its 16m after, the xxl was 16m before its 22m after. it will take much more work to clear the belts which will yield much less mercoxit.
as I said, the present xxl has 35k mercoxit. to get that much out of the new setup will take 5 rolls. so 35k per 16m m3 changes to 35k per 110m m3
just rolling the belt that many times will net you nearly 3 supers worth of minerals but less than 700m worth of mercoxit.
mining 3 supers worth with present mineral distribution nets you 17.6b worth of mercoxit.
if you cannot see that difference, then there is no hope |
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
537
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 23:54:46 -
[608] - Quote
My point is that even despite the proposed changes, mercoxit is still just another rock in the way of cycling belts rather than something that people specifically seek out for profit. I want to change that. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1662
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 23:57:37 -
[609] - Quote
Not to mention that mercoxit needs a specialized ship, with a rig that's useless for mining anything else.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down Tactical Narcotics Team
76
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 00:20:51 -
[610] - Quote
Would putting this in the Frig only WH that came with Therea be a possible way to make it lucrative as all parts of eve have access to these but they are unlivable space so it would be an expedition to go and mine this valuable mineral. |
|
GetSirrus
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
95
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 00:39:52 -
[611] - Quote
Querns wrote:Not to mention that mercoxit needs a specialized ship, with a rig that's useless for mining anything else.
It requires a specialised laser. The rig is just to increases yield. And exactly the same argument/mechanic can be attached to ice mining - so I don't see traction either way.
*========
CCP Fozzie, I am concerned that your efforts with effect Parkinson's Law.
Quote:The demand upon a resource tends to expand to match the supply of the resource.
Similar to how TiDi was only a temporary grace for lag, it would reasonable to forecast that Null-Sec players will merely increase consumption of minerals to arrive at same point now; there will always be a shortage in self-sufficiency.
Have you considered the alternative direction, and reduce the spawn rates of ore in high-sec? I would cite the precedent success behind Ice anoms. This would also link into the effort of introducing industrial costs based on population usage. Lowers spawns would see both conflict over resources and diaspora of harvesters away from trade hubs. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1663
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 00:46:23 -
[612] - Quote
GetSirrus wrote:Querns wrote:Not to mention that mercoxit needs a specialized ship, with a rig that's useless for mining anything else. It requires a specialised laser. The rig is just to increases yield. And exactly the same argument/mechanic can be attached to ice mining - so I don't see traction either way. This'd be a more apt comparison if ice anomalies had a bunch of regular ore asteroids floating around them like dingleberries.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Hippinse
University of Caille Gallente Federation
67
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 01:02:21 -
[613] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:My point is that even despite the proposed changes, mercoxit is still just another rock in the way of cycling belts rather than something that people specifically seek out for profit. I want to change that.
That's an interesting idea. I don't have any objection, but take with a grain of salt because I've never mined mercoxit, so I'm not sure I can see the big picture / ramifications.
From a more general perspective, the idea of having an ore-related option that is opportunistic (similar to ninja-mining gas?) seems great to me. |
bigbillthaboss3
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
65
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 02:21:31 -
[614] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:
Oh **** no, why would I do something stupid like that, I have at least a shred of dignity in me somewhere. I sell meta modules I get from missions...they sell for more and don't cost me anything extra since I am doing missions anyway...hoover up on an alt unload into market easy peasy. I build T2 **** and ships, because why the **** bother with anything else since it doesn't actually turn profit for time invested.
T1 module production SHOULD be profitable though, and the change to Zyd and Mega inputs makes it even worse off than today. Which is bad for the game in the long run. Especially for promoting Industry to new folks (or old folks looking for something new). Production is already limiting for fresh faces, you need to research BPOs, you need a sustainable capital source for mineral procurement, pretty sad when entry level production yields a net loss across the majority of modules. I can't think of any other profession in the game whose first steps result in you losing money.
I could see this BP tweak being viable in the future, but CCP should hold off until they finish with module tiericide. As it stands meta mods are just plain more useful, more in demand and thus more profitable. They need to make T1 mods actually desired for use instead of just a baseline item that rookie pilots fit because they can't afford the higher meta items.
If you skip the t1 production and only produce t2 objects, wouldn't you want t1 modules/ships to be cheaper? Do you even really deal with minerals? DO YOU EVEN MINE BRO? |
HarlyQ
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
98
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 03:25:04 -
[615] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:CCP Fozzie I know there has been a lot of random junk in this thread, but hopefully you're still reading. It's time for me to give some constructive feedback for your consideration. Mercoxit I believe that we need a strong candidate to make cherry picking (or "Ninja Mining") a profession, and Mercoxit would serve that purpose greatly. Morphite is also greatly oversupplied at the moment and is a near negligible cost in t2 equipment. Therefore, I'm suggesting that we completely remove Mercoxit from all ore anoms that spawn from nullsec industrial upgrades. Here's why: Oversupply As nullsec mining becomes more worthwhile, more people will be stripping and cycling ore anomalies. With a consistent cycling of belts, the supply of Mercoxit/Morphite will continue to increase, further dunking the price. Mercoxit alone is large (40m3), but compressed Mercoxit is only 0.1 m3 (wtf?), so it is exceptionally easy to get to an upgraded refinery and ship to empire. This means that most mercoxit mined will easily get to market. Low Income per HourWhile an individual Mercoxit rock is "valuable", Mercoxit is 40m3 per unit. Furthermore, Mercoxit is mined significantly slower than any other ore. A fully boosted hulk mines ore at about 3421 m3/min excluding drones. A fully boosted hulk with mercoxit rig mines Mercoxit at about 2165 m3/min (drones are not possible). This means that you're mining about 54 units of mercoxit a minute in a hulk, equating to approximately 8262 units of morphite every hour- approximately 57 mil per hour assuming you have a hauler. As the refine rate of mercoxit increases from 293->300 and as the overall supply increases, that isk per hour will fall even further. A max hulk pilot can make upwards of 70 mil isk/hr on other ores with existing prices. (note: not many people use hulks in null because of clicks and risk) SuggestionRemove mercoxit from all ore anomalies. Leave mercoxit in static belts and in scannable sites in nullsec. Reduce the m3 on mercoxit to a reasonable size that allows for smaller (ninja) ships to mine it. Perhaps give a mercoxit mining bonus to mining frigates. Potential ResultsIn making those changes, Mercoxit will turn cherry picking into a profession. There will be meaningful rewards in any player traversing nullsec looking for Mercoxit deposits and scan-able sites with Mercoxit. There are no sites that currently are a huge "win" for a miner or explorer- but making this change would enable the mining types to have "jackpots" where they have potential to make some serious ISK mining Mercoxit. This would also make it worthwhile for anyone in the game to scan down wormholes and seek out mercoxit in wh space- even for highsec miners. Arkonor/BistotI would not consider these ores of being worthy of ninja-mining even with the upcoming changes. There will be a consistent supply of Arkonor/Bistot coming from ore anoms, and without mining boosts, the income of ninja mining Arkonor and Bistot would still be pretty low for an individual account. A change such as the above would give all players an opportunity to do some high risk ninja-mining that would lead to greater rewards, rather than making all mining a rather repetitive task with no real chance of "hitting it big". Thanks to Querns for helping with this data. I am a large t2 producer I agree with all of what he said. I support this idea. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2779
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 04:09:14 -
[616] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Amusing idea. But, what happens if someone flips the can? Does the mining ship just stop moving or does it sail off out of the belt? Same as orbiting a ship that gets popped. Sail out. I'm sure he doesn't mind doing it with style in his Skiff. EvilweaselSA wrote: ladies and gentlemen, our mining expert, who doesn't know how much of a benefit a skiff has over a procurer, who believes the only way to mine safely is to fit for max yield, who can't figure out how to use a can, and who has no idea that it's not 2012
oh, also, he believes that regions that have more bot miners would have more expensive trit than regions that had less bot miners in nullsec, for some reason that is beyond us mortals
Usual gewnspeak, trying to troll, ignoring everything, typical density and no-brain show. Once again, for special people, and those who are below them, and gewns who are below those: 1) There are no meaningful advantages of Skiff over Procurer. 2) If something attacks the miner and it's not a low-dps rat, the miner is dead, no matter what he pilots. 3) The only defense against said attack is lessen the exposure. Which means mine for less time, compensating with efficiency. 4) Cans are cretin magnets. Use them to bring 1001 ganktards to your belt. Orbiting doesn't work since you're dead no matter what you do if you're hit. Just did some quick and simple math....keep in mind the simple part---i.e. I didn't sit down and figure damage types, resists, just back of the envelope kind of thing.... Skiff tanked out (needs a 2% cpu implant) with an orca boosting shields gets 133,800 ehp. So, assuming the gank team has to kill you in 18 seconds and they have all the relevant skills my quick estimate was 12 guys minimum for that gank. If you see them coming...and you overheat your shield modules then 161,839 ehp and now they'll need 14 guys, minimum. Want to make double damn sure, 15-16 dudes in catalysts. And yeah, your mining yield wont be that great either...but better than your mining yield if your ship is dead. Or they just bump you and now your Skiff is useless. If only you were in the actual barge, you'd be done by the time they arrive and not there anymore, but no, gotta sit there and troll with Skiffs. Now without sarcasm, I know Skiff is an efficient solution to troll gankbears. Unfortunately, that's the only thing it's efficient with. You can troll in it, and it fares well, you try to mine in it - you are wrong. Mining yield of a Covetor over Skiff will pay off the price of a Covetor in about 3-5 hours. So, every 3-5 hours you mine in Skiff, you LOSE a Covetor. That's why Skiff is u-n-v-i-a-b-l-e - trying to mine in it is self-ganking a Covetor every 3-5 hours. Maybe this analogy will get through to you, if numbers are so difficult concept to grasp for you.
Code can't be everywhere at once. I've mined plenty, semi-afk in HS and never once been bumped. So, I have to think you are whining way too much.
And do the math again on skiff vs. covetor. You have to take the difference between what the skiff mines vs. what the covetor mines. And 1 dead covetor means you are out a somewhat sizeable amount of isk....which means you'll have to mine even longer to recover that loss.
Or just bite the bullet and go to null. Obviously not to the Goons or an affiliated alliance as you've basically crapped in your mess kit on that one. But in 6 months who knows....
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2779
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 04:14:00 -
[617] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Skiff tanked out (needs a 2% cpu implant) with an orca boosting shields gets 133,800 ehp. So, assuming the gank team has to kill you in 18 seconds and they have all the relevant skills my quick estimate was 12 guys minimum for that gank. If you see them coming...and you overheat your shield modules then 161,839 ehp and now they'll need 14 guys, minimum. Want to make double damn sure, 15-16 dudes in catalysts. Actually, in this particular case, you'd probably want to upship to cruisers, or maybe a BC, rather than dessies. However, in high sec, you rarely run across a fully tanked Skiff - most of them compromise the tank by having some sort of mining upgrade somewhere in the fit. And, they almost never overheat - high sec miners tend to be simi-AFK, probably haven't trained up Thermodynamics, and/or simply forget (or don't know) how to overheat their modules. Most high sec miners have very limited experience with PVP, you know.
If you tank your skiff and you know there are HS gankers about you are a moron and you deserve what you get. If you want to rage against anyone go in your bathroom and looki in the mirror.
Regarding overheating...not my problem that HS players do not use everything to their advantage. Either adapt or go back to being a poop socking WoW player.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2779
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 04:15:48 -
[618] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:Mining yield of a Covetor over Skiff will pay off the price of a Covetor in about 3-5 hours. So, every 3-5 hours you mine in Skiff, you LOSE a Covetor. That's why Skiff is u-n-v-i-a-b-l-e - trying to mine in it is self-ganking a Covetor every 3-5 hours. Maybe this analogy will get through to you, if numbers are so difficult concept to grasp for you. Ok, I really was not planning to get involved again, but let's be clear: This is an entirely useless statement. If you wanted to go this route the appropriate calculation should have been: ((Covertor Isk Cost / (Average number of hours between being suicide ganked in a Covetor) - ((Covetor Mining Rate - Skiff Mining Rate) Isk/Hr)) = X If X is greater than 0, Covetor mining is economical compared to skiffs. If it is negative, Skiff is the winner. Second, at a quick glance, EFT tells me that a Covetor gets almost exactly 20% yield more than a Skiff, while a fully fit Covetor costs 50 million. So are you seriously telling me the 20% increase from Skiff to Covetor allows you to pay off a 50 mil isk Covetor in 3-5 hours of mining? That means the skiff in highsec is pulling in 50-83 million an hour! WHAT? That doesn't resemble the 20 million isk/hour numbers I hear tossed around all the time by highsec miners! I CALL COMPLETE AND UTTER BULLSHIT.But I forgive you, since Basil Pupkin wrote:numbers are so difficult to grasp.
Not empty quoting....
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2779
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 04:23:51 -
[619] - Quote
So I go to zkilloard and look at the skiff ship...and I see most of the losses, if not all, on the front page in in low sec or null. I even see, OMFG, the occasional catalyst loss to a...F***ING skiff....in HS.
WTF? Basil told me this was a horrible ship to fly.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Mario Putzo
1205
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 04:26:25 -
[620] - Quote
bigbillthaboss3 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
Oh **** no, why would I do something stupid like that, I have at least a shred of dignity in me somewhere. I sell meta modules I get from missions...they sell for more and don't cost me anything extra since I am doing missions anyway...hoover up on an alt unload into market easy peasy. I build T2 **** and ships, because why the **** bother with anything else since it doesn't actually turn profit for time invested.
T1 module production SHOULD be profitable though, and the change to Zyd and Mega inputs makes it even worse off than today. Which is bad for the game in the long run. Especially for promoting Industry to new folks (or old folks looking for something new). Production is already limiting for fresh faces, you need to research BPOs, you need a sustainable capital source for mineral procurement, pretty sad when entry level production yields a net loss across the majority of modules. I can't think of any other profession in the game whose first steps result in you losing money.
I could see this BP tweak being viable in the future, but CCP should hold off until they finish with module tiericide. As it stands meta mods are just plain more useful, more in demand and thus more profitable. They need to make T1 mods actually desired for use instead of just a baseline item that rookie pilots fit because they can't afford the higher meta items.
If you skip the t1 production and only produce t2 objects, wouldn't you want t1 modules/ships to be cheaper? Do you even really deal with minerals? DO YOU EVEN MINE BRO?
Wouldn't really matter either way...just roll the price into the final product. Since T2 has no price ceiling except direct market competition with other producers. Unlike T1 production that has competition not only with other producers, but Meta Modules that are seeded into the game any time someone kills a rat (and it drops loot of course).
and nah no mining. when I started producing i mined...but after i made my first bil I just turned to buy orders...let someone else do the **** work while I play the game. Only stuff I don't buy order are mid and high ends...because you can get them super easy in meta mods, which I get plenty off missions in HS or ratting/anoms in LS/NS.
In fact, when Trit, Pyrite and Mex tank...ill probably make even more of a profit than I do now....so I guess I should be thanking CCP...to bad its going to take a new bro a year or so to get the skills and capital together to be able to fund worthwhile production since T1 module production is going to be largely irrelevant moving forward (in terms of putting it on market of course.) |
|
Munchkin bait
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 04:33:38 -
[621] - Quote
Uh oh game over.
Well since CCP still has not released any subscription numbers we have to go on 3rd party numbers of minus 18%. ( If the numbers where good as they were in the past they would not have any trouble showing them, speculation! ) That 18 % was mostly from miners throwing in the towel. http://nosygamer.blogspot.com/2015/04/as-we-approach-eve-onlines-12th.html
Now thanks to a big push from the CSM null sec block high sec mining will be nerfed again! Trit is tthe only thing HS had to offer in this game for people who want to be industral toons in HS! Well with the buff of trit in the higher end ores and the increase of zydrine mega for ships will strain the HS player.
CSM expects HS players will suddenly want to listen to teen something 20 something commanders ordering them what to do! Sorry, not happening. I expect another 18% of players say door and leave! Between miners switching to mission running and scan sites utterly worthless unless you have a gand of 4 to catch the warping cans! What is the average player suppose to do??? Let me guess buy PLEX CARDS to play!!!!!!!!!! Not going to happen !!! Door please!!!!!
Still mad about the greatest ship ever created! The Venture has utterly made the Hulk useless! So mush for having 100 million mining toon only to watch Mr Venture match me 85 %%%%%%%
I magine if I could fly a tech one frigate that would match 85% of the PVP power of a Paladin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Be alot of PVP players would go door!!!! Thnaks for memory CCP/CSM but my 3 account are done! Ask the CSM to pick up my bill!!!!! |
Mario Putzo
1205
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 04:38:38 -
[622] - Quote
Its impossible to tell where the 18% reduction comes from, miners could make a big part of it, but Id wager most of those miners are bots, since mining has traditionally provided a very steady (all be it shite) income stream. A lot of that % could also be from folks in NS who lost their space or said **** it im not moving my Capital 30 ******* jumps thanks to Jump Fatigue ill just unsub him here forever...folks in LS who are tired of it being mostly empty except in blob filled FW space.
I wouldn't read to much into the 18% all that shows is that people have left the game, it doesn't give a why, who, or where.
Although interestingly enough CCP did release some hard numbers recently, and shockingly (to me anyway) of active players 75% of them exist in HS. So in that vein it does seem odd CCP is catering to a vast minority of people with these changes. Lord knows folks ain't going to be packing their bags and heading to null sec just to mine.
http://i.imgur.com/W1G0jsI.png |
Jiulia
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 04:40:20 -
[623] - Quote
Munchkin bait wrote:Uh oh game over. Well since CCP still has not released any subscription numbers we have to go on 3rd party numbers of minus 18%. ( If the numbers where good as they were in the past they would not have any trouble showing them, speculation! ) That 18 % was mostly from miners throwing in the towel. http://nosygamer.blogspot.com/2015/04/as-we-approach-eve-onlines-12th.html Now thanks to a big push from the CSM null sec block high sec mining will be nerfed again! Trit is tthe only thing HS had to offer in this game for people who want to be industral toons in HS! Well with the buff of trit in the higher end ores and the increase of zydrine mega for ships will strain the HS player. CSM expects HS players will suddenly want to listen to teen something 20 something commanders ordering them what to do! Sorry, not happening. I expect another 18% of players say door and leave! Between miners switching to mission running and scan sites utterly worthless unless you have a gand of 4 to catch the warping cans! What is the average player suppose to do??? Let me guess buy PLEX CARDS to play!!!!!!!!!! Not going to happen !!! Door please!!!!! Still mad about the greatest ship ever created! The Venture has utterly made the Hulk useless! So mush for having 100 million mining toon only to watch Mr Venture match me 85 %%%%%%% I magine if I could fly a tech one frigate that would match 85% of the PVP power of a Paladin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Be alot of PVP players would go door!!!! Thnaks for memory CCP/CSM but my 3 account are done! Ask the CSM to pick up my bill!!!!! What 20 something commanders? Also you just need to adapt thats why we play this game it is fun to adapt to new things. Have fun in other ****** games. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2331
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 04:42:55 -
[624] - Quote
Munchkin bait wrote:The Venture has utterly made the Hulk useless! 8/10 not bad |
Jiulia
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 04:42:59 -
[625] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Its impossible to tell where the 18% reduction comes from, miners could make a big part of it, but Id wager most of those miners are bots, since mining has traditionally provided a very steady (all be it shite) income stream. A lot of that % could also be from folks in NS who lost their space...folks in LS who are tired of it being mostly empty except in blob filled FW space. I wouldn't read to much into the 18% all that shows is that people have left the game, it doesn't give a why, who, or where. Although interestingly enough CCP did release some hard numbers recently, and shockingly (to me anyway) of active players 75% of them exist in HS. So in that vein it does seem odd CCP is catering to a vast minority of people with these changes. Lord knows folks ain't going to be packing their bags and heading to null sec just to mine. http://i.imgur.com/W1G0jsI.png Want to know what is really cool none of that info in that pic tells you how many of those high sec people are null sec alts. |
Mario Putzo
1205
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 04:46:44 -
[626] - Quote
Jiulia wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Its impossible to tell where the 18% reduction comes from, miners could make a big part of it, but Id wager most of those miners are bots, since mining has traditionally provided a very steady (all be it shite) income stream. A lot of that % could also be from folks in NS who lost their space...folks in LS who are tired of it being mostly empty except in blob filled FW space. I wouldn't read to much into the 18% all that shows is that people have left the game, it doesn't give a why, who, or where. Although interestingly enough CCP did release some hard numbers recently, and shockingly (to me anyway) of active players 75% of them exist in HS. So in that vein it does seem odd CCP is catering to a vast minority of people with these changes. Lord knows folks ain't going to be packing their bags and heading to null sec just to mine. http://i.imgur.com/W1G0jsI.png Want to know what is really cool none of that info in that pic tells you how many of those high sec people are null sec alts.
Eh can just apply the old 3:1 rule, even if you do that for every region no HS you still end up with the majority of people being in HS.
Main, Money Maker, Jita Alt.
Any other alts above that are typically logistical alts, cyno alts, scouting alts, or secondary combat character alts (capitals) Especially now that ISboxer is dead, and soloing Incursions with your 20 highsec alts is no longer permitted. (and given that the sky didn't fall on PLEX prices its safe to say ISboxer wasn't as popular as the woe is me crowd claimed it to be) |
Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1472
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 04:47:07 -
[627] - Quote
Munchkin bait wrote: Well since CCP still has not released any subscription numbers we have to go on 3rd party numbers of minus 18%. ( If the numbers where good as they were in the past they would not have any trouble showing them, speculation! ) That 18 % was mostly from miners throwing in the towel. http://nosygamer.blogspot.com/2015/04/as-we-approach-eve-onlines-12th.html Now thanks to a big push from the CSM null sec block high sec mining will be nerfed again! Trit is tthe only thing HS had to offer in this game for people who want to be industral toons in HS! Well with the buff of trit in the higher end ores and the increase of zydrine mega for ships will strain the HS player. CSM expects HS players will suddenly want to listen to teen something 20 something commanders ordering them what to do! Sorry, not happening. I expect another 18% of players say door and leave! Between miners switching to mission running and scan sites utterly worthless unless you have a gand of 4 to catch the warping cans! What is the average player suppose to do??? Let me guess buy PLEX CARDS to play!!!!!!!!!! Not going to happen !!! Door please!!!!! Still mad about the greatest ship ever created! The Venture has utterly made the Hulk useless! So mush for having 100 million mining toon only to watch Mr Venture match me 85 %%%%%%% I magine if I could fly a tech one frigate that would match 85% of the PVP power of a Paladin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Be alot of PVP players would go door!!!! Thnaks for memory CCP/CSM but my 3 account are done! Ask the CSM to pick up my bill!!!!!
Eh.... to address them in the order of incoherent appearance.
1: Highsec mining has only been buffed in recent times, with the barge changes, freighters being able to scoop from cans, Crimewatch, and compression arrays all helping highsec miners. The actual bleed of players in the past few years has been from an increasingly stagnant and uninteresting nullsec. There has been no pressure on miners from CCP's changes for years.
2: It's rather easy to avoid AlphaStarPilot as long as you keep an eye on what alliance he is in this week, and nearly all other FC's are far older.
3: Scatter cans were removed from the game over a year ago. Good to see you keeping up on game changes (You ignorant ranter).
4: Hulk 1 MLU = 1575 m3 per minute. Venture 1 MLU = 511m3 per minute. That's around 30% of a Hulk (You ignorant ranter)
5: I can't tell anything you are trying to say here through the incoherent froth.
6: Can I have your stuff? |
nutlesscats
Black Water Oasis The CORVOS
1
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 05:06:14 -
[628] - Quote
Maybe when you guys find a way to make mining feasable in null sec then the supply demand might be stabalized but the fact that being in a mining ship means any person with a combat ship is going to kill you, simple maybe if you gave a chance to the miners then people would mine in null sec but as it is you need a stable alliance with decent sov just to be able to get out there and even then there will be roaming gangs everywhere so maybe you should deal with the real problem MINERS ARE NOTHING MORE THAN A FISH ON A HOOK TO EVERYONE WHO DOESNT MINE fix that issue and more people will venture into null sec and mine more
+1 FIX THE RORQUAL |
Mario Putzo
1205
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 05:16:35 -
[629] - Quote
nutlesscats wrote:Maybe when you guys find a way to make mining feasable in null sec then the supply demand might be stabalized but the fact that being in a mining ship means any person with a combat ship is going to kill you, simple maybe if you gave a chance to the miners then people would mine in null sec but as it is you need a stable alliance with decent sov just to be able to get out there and even then there will be roaming gangs everywhere so maybe you should deal with the real problem MINERS ARE NOTHING MORE THAN A FISH ON A HOOK TO EVERYONE WHO DOESNT MINE fix that issue and more people will venture into null sec and mine more
+1 FIX THE RORQUAL
The inverse of course is making HS more dangerous, to encourage folks to work with other people for protection. If HS wasn't as (and I use this losely because you can still be killed) risk free as it is, then folks would be more encouraged to venture into more risky areas such as LS, NS, WH.
Food for thought.
People don't mine in NS, because there are many more activities that generate more isk. Some of which just put it right into your wallet without ever needing to visit the market place to sell stuff. I don't know why people mine at all to be honest, since the isk is pathetic compared to pretty much every other activity. |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
587
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 08:20:00 -
[630] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Skiff tanked out (needs a 2% cpu implant) with an orca boosting shields gets 133,800 ehp. So, assuming the gank team has to kill you in 18 seconds and they have all the relevant skills my quick estimate was 12 guys minimum for that gank. If you see them coming...and you overheat your shield modules then 161,839 ehp and now they'll need 14 guys, minimum. Want to make double damn sure, 15-16 dudes in catalysts. Actually, in this particular case, you'd probably want to upship to cruisers, or maybe a BC, rather than dessies. However, in high sec, you rarely run across a fully tanked Skiff - most of them compromise the tank by having some sort of mining upgrade somewhere in the fit. And, they almost never overheat - high sec miners tend to be simi-AFK, probably haven't trained up Thermodynamics, and/or simply forget (or don't know) how to overheat their modules. Most high sec miners have very limited experience with PVP, you know. If you don't tank your skiff and you know there are HS gankers about you are a moron and you deserve what you get. If you want to rage against anyone go in your bathroom and looki in the mirror. Regarding overheating...not my problem that HS players do not use everything to their advantage. Either adapt or go back to being a poop socking WoW player. Who is actually raging here?
I'm just calmly pointing out that ganking higher EHP targets is commonly done using ships larger than dessies. I'm also just pointing out that a high sec miner isn't likely to be fielding a max tank, even on a Skiff - yield is always an issue with them.
And, as I told Querns, I play Hello Kitty Island Adventure. WoW is too hardcore for me.... |
|
Braccer
The Senate and People of Rome Fortis Et Certus
2
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 08:29:48 -
[631] - Quote
Aya Nova wrote:All these changes only address one side (and the less important one of) of why null mining isn't happening.
Mining as it is, is a very uninteractive activity. You need a bunch of people sitting in a belt for hours, who can do nothing but drag ore from their bay. At the same time you need someone to clear the rats (who gets to do nothing for ~30min, then be active for 2) and if you plan to defend from PvP enemies, you need a sizable gang on standby (which is supremely boring).
Secondly the exhumers (or at least 1-2 of them or a new class of mining ships) need to be redesigned with the idea of nullsec defensive combat. This doesn't just mean lots of tank, because a helpless ship with lots of tank will just get ground down eventually. They need to actually be able to protect themselves, something like bonuses and slots to allow fitting of undersized weapons (or RLMLs) that would allow a pack of exhumers to not be a pushover for a smaller number of inities or a torp bomber drop. For example adding a max 3 fitted to strip miners, and adding turret/launcher highs, more mids and bonusing small weapons on the hull, but reducing warp speed to make them undesirable offensively.
Have you ever seen more than 1 skiff/proc mining in a belt? 2 can deal with BS rats, I have see 5 take down thoraxes with no losses... Please keep posting rubbish idea's if you wish but as it stands there is a defensive mining barge.
No if only mining was more valuable/intresting it would be fun. |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
587
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 08:38:45 -
[632] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:The inverse of course is making HS more dangerous, to encourage folks to work with other people for protection. If HS wasn't as (and I use this losely because you can still be killed) risk free as it is, then folks would be more encouraged to venture into more risky areas such as LS, NS, WH. Nah... this was the whole point of the "EVE is harsh" direction, and it did not work. No matter what CCP does to make high sec more risky, by encouraging more wardec or ganking activity, high sec carebears simply won't learn to PVP, nor move to low sec, null sec, or WH space. They just whine more.
TBH, I think that the only way to eventually significantly shift the population demographics is to actually start new players in low or null sec, rather than high sec.
Mario Putzo wrote: People don't mine in NS, because there are many more activities that generate more isk. Some of which just put it right into your wallet without ever needing to visit the market place to sell stuff. I don't know why people mine at all to be honest, since the isk is pathetic compared to pretty much every other activity.
Yep. We had that discussion earlier in this thread. Some players naively want to increase null sec mining profitability, but I made the well-received suggestion that significantly reducing the value of all other null sec ISK farming activities (until they are on par with, or lower than null sec mining) would be more effective. :) |
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Shadow of xXDEATHXx
179
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 10:51:25 -
[633] - Quote
To the highsec miners complaining that null is getting a boost to mining, well do the simple thing
Move to NullSec |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
131
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 11:57:51 -
[634] - Quote
Ncc 1709 wrote:To the highsec miners complaining that null is getting a boost to mining, well do the simple thing
Move to NullSec
Indeed.
New data from CCP Quant - Active Character Locations in EVE
75% in Hisec 12% in Null 8% in LS
15-25% increases in pilots being active in Null, W-space and LS since Odyssey 1.1.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Strom Ronuken
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 12:37:57 -
[635] - Quote
Lady Miah wrote:Hi,
I am not a fan of these changes. I do not think you have adequately considered price and manufacturing pressure on existing items. Many items are unprofitable to manufacture in their current form and invention is a total mess even with recent changes, so increasing the mineral cost for these items at the same time sovereignty changes are being introduced is going to have a hugely negative impact on the game, making it much more expensive for people to play. Which works great for your pocketbook, until you start losing subscribers.
I like the idea of nullsec minerals increasing in importance and increasing nullsec self-sufficiency, but the reality is that life is already very difficult for most miners both high and lowsec, and the nullsec mining climate is going to get much more hostile with the increases in roaming gangs under the new sovereignty system. Which is totally fine, but it is going to have a serious net impact on prices, which in turn is going to continue to help the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
CCP's changes are getting less and less clued by the day. There are some fantastic ideas being bandied around (and I applaud the innovative spirit, particularly of the structure changes which I think are the best thing to happen to EVE in almost a decade) but the rush to put them in place before they have been thought through is pretty obvious.
Before you do anything, you need to wait for the changes from Fozziesov to settle out, rebalance the industrial ships, take a good hard look at manufacturing profit and mineral content overall, and consider making PVPers make a choice between killing miners/industrialists and killing everything else. My suggestion would be to offer specialized arrays for scanning down mining anomalies. Then there's the question of how to get these minerals out of null, which has gotten pretty difficult with the absolutely dimwitted travel changes and has essentially pushed everyone towards jump freighters.
You can't rely on the market dataset; there are too many items there being sold at levels currently unprofitable to manufacture, which leads one to question whether CCP has any sense of what is actually going on.
If you don't fix industry, EVE will continue to be too expensive to play.
Can you please stop with the braindead decisions?
Meh, I look forward to CODE. gangs roaming SOV space asking for mining permits from SOV renters...
(great post btw)
IMO Null sec mining will always be a joke where even renters have to put up their mining fleets and turn to ratting as their main source of income...
Mining ships are just floating targets... with out concord Null Miners cry to the PvP players who tell them to "Fleet up" and while they roam around for hours, nothing is being mined.
Just entering a system can stop ore mining and if done often enough can cripple null sec manufacturing...
And that is why it will always be better to sneak in High Sec produced goods at downtime rather than trying to MINE during Peak Time.
Of course we all know that some systems in NULL are safer than High Sec and everything i just wrote doesn't apply one single bit... =o)
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15626
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 13:11:52 -
[636] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Jiulia wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Its impossible to tell where the 18% reduction comes from, miners could make a big part of it, but Id wager most of those miners are bots, since mining has traditionally provided a very steady (all be it shite) income stream. A lot of that % could also be from folks in NS who lost their space...folks in LS who are tired of it being mostly empty except in blob filled FW space. I wouldn't read to much into the 18% all that shows is that people have left the game, it doesn't give a why, who, or where. Although interestingly enough CCP did release some hard numbers recently, and shockingly (to me anyway) of active players 75% of them exist in HS. So in that vein it does seem odd CCP is catering to a vast minority of people with these changes. Lord knows folks ain't going to be packing their bags and heading to null sec just to mine. http://i.imgur.com/W1G0jsI.png Want to know what is really cool none of that info in that pic tells you how many of those high sec people are null sec alts. Eh can just apply the old 3:1 rule, even if you do that for every region no HS you still end up with the majority of people being in HS. Main, Money Maker, Jita Alt. Any other alts above that are typically logistical alts, cyno alts, scouting alts, or secondary combat character alts (capitals) Especially now that ISboxer is dead, and soloing Incursions with your 20 highsec alts is no longer permitted. (and given that the sky didn't fall on PLEX prices its safe to say ISboxer wasn't as popular as the woe is me crowd claimed it to be)
You can still solo incursion sites, its just a lot harder.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1664
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 13:26:09 -
[637] - Quote
Munchkin bait wrote:] Still mad about the greatest ship ever created! The Venture has utterly made the Hulk useless! So mush for having 100 million mining toon only to watch Mr Venture match me 85 %%%%%%%
April 20th was three days ago, man. A venture in highsec has a yield of 724 m^3 per minute, compared to a covetor's 2923. This is less "85%" and more "24%."
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Mario Putzo
1207
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 14:08:03 -
[638] - Quote
Querns wrote:Munchkin bait wrote:] Still mad about the greatest ship ever created! The Venture has utterly made the Hulk useless! So mush for having 100 million mining toon only to watch Mr Venture match me 85 %%%%%%%
April 20th was three days ago, man. A venture in highsec has a yield of 724 m^3 per minute, compared to a covetor's 2923. This is less "85%" and more "24%."
Eh its a fair bit higher when you factor in transporting the Ore. Still less than 85% though. Ventures just warp that much faster, heck could probably get to station, dump ore, and be back in belt before any of the barges exit warp. Id say after factoring in travel you are looking at 50-60%. Can even use Warp Rigs on the venture to make it that much faster too, since it costs **** if you get shot (which should never happen since they warp so fast with +2 Warp Core.)
Of course this bit is irrelevant if you have a friend or alt in a hauler (or heck even a venture) running ore back to station for you. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1664
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 14:27:50 -
[639] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:which should never happen since they warp so fast with +2 Warp Core.)
Warp Core Stability doesn't work the way you think it does.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Mario Putzo
1207
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 14:34:58 -
[640] - Quote
Querns wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:which should never happen since they warp so fast with +2 Warp Core.)
Warp Core Stability doesn't work the way you think it does.
Are you just intentionally daft? Or are you actually incapable of rational thinking? **** me. |
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
131
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 14:37:58 -
[641] - Quote
Aren't the Warp Core bonuses on the DSTs and the Venture against warp scrambling? Like the WCS, no?
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2779
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 14:57:14 -
[642] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Skiff tanked out (needs a 2% cpu implant) with an orca boosting shields gets 133,800 ehp. So, assuming the gank team has to kill you in 18 seconds and they have all the relevant skills my quick estimate was 12 guys minimum for that gank. If you see them coming...and you overheat your shield modules then 161,839 ehp and now they'll need 14 guys, minimum. Want to make double damn sure, 15-16 dudes in catalysts. Actually, in this particular case, you'd probably want to upship to cruisers, or maybe a BC, rather than dessies. However, in high sec, you rarely run across a fully tanked Skiff - most of them compromise the tank by having some sort of mining upgrade somewhere in the fit. And, they almost never overheat - high sec miners tend to be simi-AFK, probably haven't trained up Thermodynamics, and/or simply forget (or don't know) how to overheat their modules. Most high sec miners have very limited experience with PVP, you know. If you don't tank your skiff and you know there are HS gankers about you are a moron and you deserve what you get. If you want to rage against anyone go in your bathroom and looki in the mirror. Regarding overheating...not my problem that HS players do not use everything to their advantage. Either adapt or go back to being a poop socking WoW player. Who is actually raging here? I'm just calmly pointing out that ganking higher EHP targets is commonly done using ships larger than dessies. I'm also just pointing out that a high sec miner isn't likely to be fielding a max tank, even on a Skiff - yield is always an issue with them. And, as I told Querns, I play Hello Kitty Island Adventure. WoW is too hardcore for me....
And my point is...tank your ship if you think there is a chance of getting suicide ganked. And maybe go find us a skiff kill in HS. I spent a few minutes doing it and couldn't. Doesn't mean there isn't one, but it seems if you use a skiff you become less likely to be ganked...maybe because nobody uses them in HS*...or because they can have a pretty impressive tank.
*I highly ******* doubt this. After all on the page for skiffs at zkillboard there are plenty of catalyst kills....killed by the skiff and concord.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1061
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 15:35:19 -
[643] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Querns wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:which should never happen since they warp so fast with +2 Warp Core.)
Warp Core Stability doesn't work the way you think it does. So I missed a ******* comma. Are you just intentionally daft? Or are you actually incapable of rational thinking? **** me. where exactly are you thinking you could put a comma in that sentence that would make it not wrong |
Ragori Mitternacht
Forsaken Industrial Empire The Southern Syndicate
10
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 16:05:59 -
[644] - Quote
I am a CEO of a small industrial corp in our alliance. From everything I have read the changes to ore look good. However there is a difference between on paper and put into practice. I have had to shift to mining in high-sec to gather all the bulk quantities of Tritanium and Pyrite which is not fun. I enjoy null and WH mining more fun however it takes such considerable time to mine out enough material to get the needed quantities.
I will enjoy this coming update because if what they say works out like I am hoping it will I may not have to worry aobut mining in high-sec anymore I can fully mine all needed materiel in null or WH when I find a good one.
As for the Orca and Rorqual I have been getting close to my first year of playing so I have yet to reach the Rorqual however I am just getting the orca so I have heard it mentioned that they have flaws I am hoping that those flaws won't de-rail my plans for the corporation.
I still have alot to learn and I am hoping that I can finally do what I have been wanting to do. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1666
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 16:10:57 -
[645] - Quote
Ragori Mitternacht wrote:I am a CEO of a small industrial corp in our alliance. From everything I have read the changes to ore look good. However there is a difference between on paper and put into practice. I have had to shift to mining in high-sec to gather all the bulk quantities of Tritanium and Pyrite which is not fun. I enjoy null and WH mining more fun however it takes such considerable time to mine out enough material to get the needed quantities.
I will enjoy this coming update because if what they say works out like I am hoping it will I may not have to worry aobut mining in high-sec anymore I can fully mine all needed materiel in null or WH when I find a good one.
As for the Orca and Rorqual I have been getting close to my first year of playing so I have yet to reach the Rorqual however I am just getting the orca so I have heard it mentioned that they have flaws I am hoping that those flaws won't de-rail my plans for the corporation.
I still have alot to learn and I am hoping that I can finally do what I have been wanting to do. Folks like you are essentially the target of these changes. Here's to hoping you can stay in nullsec for all your production needs. :)
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
132
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 16:55:38 -
[646] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Querns wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:which should never happen since they warp so fast with +2 Warp Core.)
Warp Core Stability doesn't work the way you think it does. So I missed a ******* comma. Are you just intentionally daft? Or are you actually incapable of rational thinking? **** me. where exactly are you thinking you could put a comma in that sentence that would make it not wrong
So guys, does that bonus work like WCS or not? I must know. (Gò»-¦Gûí-¦n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Joanna RB
Twenty Questions RAZOR Alliance
17
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 18:04:23 -
[647] - Quote
If you want to fix nullsec mining, you need to fix the one thing that makes nullsec mining worthless as an isk making activity.
Interceptors.
Stupidly fast, immune to bubbles, instantly know where you are when entering system, they no longer even need to scan, and even if you die you lose 30 mill as opposed to 240 mill for every hulk you blow. And your exhumer WILL blow, even skiffs are totally helpless against inties tackling you and waiting for thier friends on the other side of the gate/worm hole. Also, not everyone has five alts to scout, and even if they did, you are reducing your income/character to a fifth - in other words the income from null mining would have to be over SIX times better than highsec to justify using one mack plus five cloaky scouts in null as opposed to six macks (or orca + five macks) in high. |
Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1478
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 18:12:11 -
[648] - Quote
Joanna RB wrote:If you want to fix nullsec mining, you need to fix the one thing that makes nullsec mining worthless as an isk making activity.
Interceptors.
Stupidly fast, immune to bubbles, instantly know where you are when entering system, they no longer even need to scan, and even if you die you lose 30 mill as opposed to 240 mill for every hulk you blow. And your exhumer WILL blow, even skiffs are totally helpless against inties tackling you and waiting for thier friends on the other side of the gate/worm hole. Also, not everyone has five alts to scout, and even if they did, you are reducing your income/character to a fifth - in other words the income from null mining would have to be over SIX times better than highsec to justify using one mack plus five cloaky scouts in null as opposed to six macks (or orca + five macks) in high.
...? Are you trying to solo mine in a system that's a 5 way intersection?
Provi manages to mine despite tons of people coming to shoot them for ***** and giggles (including me about 30 minutes ago), Brave mined even in camped system, Test mines, all of the random N3 alliances in poorly secured systems mined too.
Are you telling me that despite being in a large alliance in the most stable and developed coalition in the game, living in a fairly isolated region, you are incapable of running even a basic intel network and placing a scout or two in the neighboring systems so that you can see people coming. Even if they were not reported in your apparently non-existent intel channels?
Go away with your useless complaints if they can't be based in reality. Nobody uses one miner and 5 cloaky scouts. Nobody with two functional brain cells mines in a 5 way intersection anyway. |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
138
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 18:20:35 -
[649] - Quote
That "issue" could be fixed with an increased delay on unloacking before all system anomalies are visible/warpable. Altho, that would reduce player interaction and make exploration a tad more tedious.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
588
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 20:33:49 -
[650] - Quote
Querns wrote:Ragori Mitternacht wrote:I am a CEO of a small industrial corp in our alliance. From everything I have read the changes to ore look good. However there is a difference between on paper and put into practice. I have had to shift to mining in high-sec to gather all the bulk quantities of Tritanium and Pyrite which is not fun. I enjoy null and WH mining more fun however it takes such considerable time to mine out enough material to get the needed quantities.
I will enjoy this coming update because if what they say works out like I am hoping it will I may not have to worry aobut mining in high-sec anymore I can fully mine all needed materiel in null or WH when I find a good one.
As for the Orca and Rorqual I have been getting close to my first year of playing so I have yet to reach the Rorqual however I am just getting the orca so I have heard it mentioned that they have flaws I am hoping that those flaws won't de-rail my plans for the corporation.
I still have alot to learn and I am hoping that I can finally do what I have been wanting to do. Folks like you are essentially the target of these changes. Here's to hoping you can stay in nullsec for all your production needs. :) Oh, c'mon, Querns (aka Fozzie alt).. this is just too obvious... I *know* this is one of your alts. ;) |
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2780
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 20:46:09 -
[651] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Querns wrote:Ragori Mitternacht wrote:I am a CEO of a small industrial corp in our alliance. From everything I have read the changes to ore look good. However there is a difference between on paper and put into practice. I have had to shift to mining in high-sec to gather all the bulk quantities of Tritanium and Pyrite which is not fun. I enjoy null and WH mining more fun however it takes such considerable time to mine out enough material to get the needed quantities.
I will enjoy this coming update because if what they say works out like I am hoping it will I may not have to worry aobut mining in high-sec anymore I can fully mine all needed materiel in null or WH when I find a good one.
As for the Orca and Rorqual I have been getting close to my first year of playing so I have yet to reach the Rorqual however I am just getting the orca so I have heard it mentioned that they have flaws I am hoping that those flaws won't de-rail my plans for the corporation.
I still have alot to learn and I am hoping that I can finally do what I have been wanting to do. Folks like you are essentially the target of these changes. Here's to hoping you can stay in nullsec for all your production needs. :) Oh, c'mon, Querns (aka Fozzie alt).. this is just too obvious... I *know* this is one of your alts. ;)
Ok, you caught me, I too am an alt of Querns.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
588
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 20:52:29 -
[652] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:And my point is...tank your ship if you think there is a chance of getting suicide ganked. And maybe go find us a skiff kill in HS. I spent a few minutes doing it and couldn't. Doesn't mean there isn't one, but it seems if you use a skiff you become less likely to be ganked...maybe because nobody uses them in HS*...or because they can have a pretty impressive tank.
*I highly ******* doubt this. After all on the page for skiffs at zkillboard there are plenty of catalyst kills....killed by the skiff and concord. And, my point is that you need to drink a beer and take a chill pill. This is just a game, friend. Don't get so stressed about it - relax and you'll live longer in RL, where it really counts. :)
Clearly, you don't play much in high sec... and probably don't want to. That is 100% ok.
But, this also means that there is not much point for you to be arguing about what happens in high sec with the players who do play in high sec. When you do so, you are merely doing the same silly thing that null players often complain about with regards to the high sec players who argue endlessly about null sec - ie. talking about what they really don't know. Let it go and move on. |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
588
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 20:56:33 -
[653] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Querns wrote:Ragori Mitternacht wrote:I am a CEO of a small industrial corp... Folks like you are essentially the target of these changes. Here's to hoping you can stay in nullsec for all your production needs. :) Oh, c'mon, Querns (aka Fozzie alt).. this is just too obvious... I *know* this is one of your alts. ;) Ok, you caught me, I too am an alt of Querns. Tsk, tsk... you are simply too naive to realize how truly skilled Querns is in the forum PVP game... lol.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1669
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 21:00:23 -
[654] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Querns wrote:Ragori Mitternacht wrote:I am a CEO of a small industrial corp... Folks like you are essentially the target of these changes. Here's to hoping you can stay in nullsec for all your production needs. :) Oh, c'mon, Querns (aka Fozzie alt).. this is just too obvious... I *know* this is one of your alts. ;) Ok, you caught me, I too am an alt of Querns. Tsk, tsk... you are simply too naive to realize how truly skilled Querns is in the forum PVP game... lol. Please, not in public. It's embarrassing.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1478
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 21:01:07 -
[655] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Querns wrote: Folks like you are essentially the target of these changes. Here's to hoping you can stay in nullsec for all your production needs. :)
Oh, c'mon, Querns (aka Fozzie alt).. this is just too obvious... I *know* this is one of your alts. ;) Ok, you caught me, I too am an alt of Querns.
No I'm CCP Fozzie!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8h_v_our_Q |
bigbillthaboss3
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
65
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 22:04:26 -
[656] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:
...? Are you trying to solo mine in a system that's a 5 way intersection?
Provi manages to mine despite tons of people coming to shoot them for ***** and giggles (including me about 30 minutes ago), Brave mined even in camped system, Test mines, all of the random N3 alliances in poorly secured systems mined too.
Are you telling me that despite being in a large alliance in the most stable and developed coalition in the game, living in a fairly isolated region, you are incapable of running even a basic intel network or placing a scout or two in the neighboring systems so that you can see people coming? Even if they were not reported in your apparently non-existent intel channels?
Go away with your useless complaints if they can't be based in reality. Nobody uses one miner and 5 cloaky scouts. Nobody with two functional brain cells mines in a 5 way intersection anyway.
You don't have Poitot Dot. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1402
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 22:55:20 -
[657] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:And my point is...tank your ship if you think there is a chance of getting suicide ganked. And maybe go find us a skiff kill in HS. I spent a few minutes doing it and couldn't. Doesn't mean there isn't one, but it seems if you use a skiff you become less likely to be ganked...maybe because nobody uses them in HS*...or because they can have a pretty impressive tank.
*I highly ******* doubt this. After all on the page for skiffs at zkillboard there are plenty of catalyst kills....killed by the skiff and concord. And, my point is that you need to drink a beer and take a chill pill. This is just a game, friend. Don't get so stressed about it - relax and you'll live longer in RL, where it really counts. :) Clearly, you don't play much in high sec... and probably don't want to. That is 100% ok. But, this also means that there is not much point for you to be arguing about what happens in high sec with the players who do play in high sec. When you do so, you are merely doing the same silly thing that null players often complain about with regards to the high sec players who argue endlessly about null sec - ie. talking about what they really don't know. Let it go and move on. I'm in highsec. I see plenty of Skiffs and Procurers. No one messes with them. Overheating doesn't even become necessary for the most part as even a moderate tank makes you, in my experience, not worth the effort. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2781
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 23:11:28 -
[658] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:And my point is...tank your ship if you think there is a chance of getting suicide ganked. And maybe go find us a skiff kill in HS. I spent a few minutes doing it and couldn't. Doesn't mean there isn't one, but it seems if you use a skiff you become less likely to be ganked...maybe because nobody uses them in HS*...or because they can have a pretty impressive tank.
*I highly ******* doubt this. After all on the page for skiffs at zkillboard there are plenty of catalyst kills....killed by the skiff and concord. And, my point is that you need to drink a beer and take a chill pill. This is just a game, friend. Don't get so stressed about it - relax and you'll live longer in RL, where it really counts. :) Clearly, you don't play much in high sec... and probably don't want to. That is 100% ok. But, this also means that there is not much point for you to be arguing about what happens in high sec with the players who do play in high sec. When you do so, you are merely doing the same silly thing that null players often complain about with regards to the high sec players who argue endlessly about null sec - ie. talking about what they really don't know. Let it go and move on.
When you want to keep null sec broken so you can keep things the way they are in HS...then I have an issue.
1. The high end market is very, very well supplied. So well supplied the prices are in the toilet compared to where they were years ago.
2. Getting low ends in null is a problem, so much so that most people source them in HS and ship them.
3. CCP really wants to nerf JFs. CCP wants more people in null. CCP wants more conflict in null or at least the, until recently, end to null being primarily 2 big coalitions periodically poking at each other.
You can't really do 3 and leave 1 nd 2 untouched. That is what people are saying.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1478
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 00:35:03 -
[659] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Clearly, you don't play much in high sec... and probably don't want to. That is 100% ok.
But, this also means that there is not much point for you to be arguing about what happens in high sec with the players who do play in high sec. When you do so, you are merely doing the same silly thing that null players often complain about with regards to the high sec players who argue endlessly about null sec - ie. talking about what they really don't know. Let it go and move on.
Your statement assumes that nobody in nullsec knows anything about highsec, and ignores the fact that most nullsec players both started in highsec, still have alts that live there, and continue most of the activity a highsec players does in nullsec.
Your statement breaks down when the people involved have experience in both highsec and nullsec production, logistics, and economics of scale.
Nor is restricting a persons ability to comment on things that don't happen directly in their space reasonable. There's really nothing in this game that can be said not to effect the other areas of space.
Let's take the ESS as an example.
Did it effect nullsec? Yes, directly through reducing our income at the source. So ofc we can discuss it. Did it effect highsec/lowsec? Yes, through creating a LP source that devalued empire corp LP prices. So they too can discuss it. Did it effect WH's? Yes, WH people love to steal from the ESS piggy banks. Since it effects them, they too can discuss it.
Highsec mining effects highsec. It effects lowsec. It effects nullsec. It even effects WH's by dictating supply.
Nullsec demand and mining dictates highsec ore prices. It effects lowsec and WH's through the mineral supply and the availability of targets in PvP zones.
Since everyone can talk about anything anywhere in the game since it's all interconnected, the only significant qualifiers are the understanding of how proposed changes effect the game.
So when you get people who openly state they have no experience or interest in anything besides mining rock and selling it to market, or who openly state that they consider everything else in the game combined less important than the tiny slice of their playstyle, or those that constantly trumpet false information as gospel truth, others step in a likely futile attempt to get them to understand the reasoning behind the changes.
I could only include four of the best examples due to silly quote count rules, but here's some jewels that best showcase those who look at the changes and explanations and decided weapons grade crazy and massive entitlement was the answer.
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:This change will deplete nullsec need for highsec ore our incomes will drop. NOTHING else in the game needs to change except the proposed changes for our (*Highsec*) incomes to drop.
I am NOT asking for my ISK / hr to go up, find any place I asked for that. Im asking for it not to go down.
Basil Pupkin wrote:Usual gewnspeak, trying to troll, ignoring everything, typical density and no-brain show. Once again, for special people, and those who are below them, and gewns who are below those: 1) There are no meaningful advantages of Skiff over Procurer. 2) If something attacks the miner and it's not a low-dps rat, the miner is dead, no matter what he pilots.
Suicide wanking is 100% foolproof, but I guess it's still not 100% gewnproof, as you seem convinced you can find new ways for it to fail, despite it being foolproof.[
(*In response to a very detailed explanation about how deep nullsec would become empty and near worthless without changes*)
Mario Putzo wrote:That's too bad. Fight and take space closer to Lowsec if you want easier access to the minerals.
LTC Vuvovich wrote:Lets face it peeps, CCP is out of control plain and simple. This game has gone to **** ever since CCP ran off all the RMT's. I liked it better when RMT's were in charge... they didnt CHANGE things every 3 months or less. They simply CHARGED more.
Do you really suggest we just say nothing to responses like these and through silence, endorse them? |
Andrei Rianovski
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 00:46:30 -
[660] - Quote
Narku Bourgeoisie Tonisilitis wrote:Quote:The upgraded versions of each ore will continue to contain +5% and +10% minerals as they did before. Noooo, this is such a good opportunity for ore tiericide :( We don't need 96 different ore markets for 8 types of minerals!
Perhaps at least ore 'group' or 'type' can be fixed, so that way things like "Concentrated Veldspare" count as "Veldspar" instead of exactly "Concentrated Veldspar" because when we're looking to mine/exclude certain types of ore it would be nice if the related types were really grouped proerly instead of being scattered across the overview/inventory list. Can the group type be "Ore" or start with the word Ore?
Also, Omber. Omber. Omber is just poor-grade Kernite. However you do it, please fix Omber? Poor Omber... |
|
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
539
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 00:49:06 -
[661] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:LTC Vuvovich wrote:Lets face it peeps, CCP is out of control plain and simple. This game has gone to **** ever since CCP ran off all the RMT's. I liked it better when RMT's were in charge... they didnt CHANGE things every 3 months or less. They simply CHARGED more. Do you really suggest we just say nothing to responses like these and through silence, endorse them?
Don't mind him, he's just sour that he lost a freighter with a station egg trying to gate it into null from highsec. |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
588
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 03:24:02 -
[662] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Do you really suggest we just say nothing to responses like these and through silence, endorse them? Pretty much, yes.
The forums really cease to be useful feedback, when CCP devs stop reading them and stop responding, due to the needless trolling.
Sure, some of it is fun, but many people either tend to lose perspective (ie. this is a game) or get too caught up in role playing (ie. hi, I'm a digital mother****ing bad***).
Make your point, once, clearly and succinctly, then let the others have their say. Trying to force your opinion by ridiculing others, cutting down what they are saying, erecting walls of text, etc. is a typical ploy of idiots like Bill O'Reilly and the blonde bimbo, Megan what's her face - who are just trying to garner ratings for Fox. I'd like to think that we're all better than that. :)
Ok, getting off the soapbox now.... need another beer... |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2781
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 05:25:57 -
[663] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Anhenka wrote:Do you really suggest we just say nothing to responses like these and through silence, endorse them? Pretty much, yes. The forums really cease to be useful feedback, when CCP devs stop reading them and stop responding, due to the needless trolling. Sure, some of it is fun, but many people either tend to lose perspective (ie. this is a game) or get too caught up in role playing (ie. hi, I'm a digital mother****ing bad***).
Dude, maybe then you should stop commenting.
Sizeof Void wrote:Make your point, once, clearly and succinctly, then let the others have their say. Trying to force your opinion by ridiculing others, cutting down what they are saying, erecting walls of text, etc. is a typical ploy of idiots like Bill O'Reilly and the blonde bimbo, Megan what's her face - who are just trying to garner ratings for Fox. I'd like to think that we're all better than that. :)
Ok, getting off the soapbox now.... need another beer...
Wow...the irony, it is killing me.
Edit: Oh, and I don't know if this is your main or not, but if it is...I probably have more time in HS than you do.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Fzhal
Anoikis Vergence The Last Chancers.
8
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 13:49:12 -
[664] - Quote
Wow, what a bunch of whining and trolling... CCP Fozzie, just remove 80%-90% of the roids in game everywhere, then put a bunch of Anoms (that respawn elsewhere immediately and # are tied to people in system) in Thera that can spawn more than 14 AU from celestials. Much popcorn would be had! |
Haffsol
30
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 14:16:31 -
[665] - Quote
EDIT: gotit |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
139
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 15:05:26 -
[666] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=417056&find=unread
Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015] stated on April 6th - for those of you interested.
Both Mexallon & Tritanium net supply/demand has gone positive for the first time since 2013. Then - it may have been decreased demand in times of peace, this time it is a structural and fundamental move:
http://eve-markets.net/detail?typeid=34#supply http://eve-markets.net/detail?typeid=36#supply
I welcome the coming reasonable T1 cost rebalance, courtesy of the Eternal Market Forces, in light of the doubling of Mega & Zyd inputs in manufacturing. Battleship cost will go up by mere 13-17 mil following these changes, while still not even being close to the share taken by Tritanium, Pyerite and Mexallon.
Tritanium alone accounts for 73 mil in the case of the Abaddon battleship, for an example.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1721
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 15:24:14 -
[667] - Quote
GankYou wrote:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=417056&find=unread Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015] stated on April 6th - for those of you interested. Both Mexallon & Tritanium net supply/demand has gone positive for the first time since 2013. Then - it may have been decreased demand in times of peace, this time it is a structural and fundamental move: http://eve-markets.net/detail?typeid=34#supply http://eve-markets.net/detail?typeid=36#supply I welcome the coming reasonable T1 cost rebalance, courtesy of the Eternal Market Forces, in light of the doubling of Mega & Zyd inputs in manufacturing. Battleship cost will go up by mere 13-17 mil following these changes, while still not even being close to the share taken by Tritanium, Pyerite and Mexallon. Tritanium alone accounts for 73 mil in the case of the Abaddon battleship, for an example.
Did battleship really need a cost increase tho? |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
141
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 15:39:27 -
[668] - Quote
As I've mentioned, it will rebalance with Lowends going lower and spreading their share to Highends in a few months time.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2783
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 16:42:35 -
[669] - Quote
GankYou wrote:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=417056&find=unread Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015] stated on April 6th - for those of you interested. Both Mexallon & Tritanium net supply/demand has gone positive for the first time since 2013. Then - it may have been decreased demand in times of peace, this time it is a structural and fundamental move: http://eve-markets.net/detail?typeid=34#supply http://eve-markets.net/detail?typeid=36#supply I welcome the coming reasonable T1 cost rebalance, courtesy of the Eternal Market Forces, in light of the doubling of Mega & Zyd inputs in manufacturing. Battleship cost will go up by mere 13-17 mil following these changes, while still not even being close to the share taken by Tritanium, Pyerite and Mexallon. Tritanium alone accounts for 73 mil in the case of the Abaddon battleship, for an example.
Just curious when you say net supply/demand being positive do you mean that there is an excess supply--i.e. more on the market than is being bought?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
144
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 16:43:42 -
[670] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:GankYou wrote:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=417056&find=unread Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015] stated on April 6th - for those of you interested. Both Mexallon & Tritanium net supply/demand has gone positive for the first time since 2013. Then - it may have been decreased demand in times of peace, this time it is a structural and fundamental move: http://eve-markets.net/detail?typeid=34#supply http://eve-markets.net/detail?typeid=36#supply I welcome the coming reasonable T1 cost rebalance, courtesy of the Eternal Market Forces, in light of the doubling of Mega & Zyd inputs in manufacturing. Battleship cost will go up by mere 13-17 mil following these changes, while still not even being close to the share taken by Tritanium, Pyerite and Mexallon. Tritanium alone accounts for 73 mil in the case of the Abaddon battleship, for an example. Just curious when you say net supply/demand being positive do you mean that there is an excess supply--i.e. more on the market than is being bought?
Of course.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
|
Mario Putzo
1209
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 16:49:49 -
[671] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:GankYou wrote:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=417056&find=unread Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015] stated on April 6th - for those of you interested. Both Mexallon & Tritanium net supply/demand has gone positive for the first time since 2013. Then - it may have been decreased demand in times of peace, this time it is a structural and fundamental move: http://eve-markets.net/detail?typeid=34#supply http://eve-markets.net/detail?typeid=36#supply I welcome the coming reasonable T1 cost rebalance, courtesy of the Eternal Market Forces, in light of the doubling of Mega & Zyd inputs in manufacturing. Battleship cost will go up by mere 13-17 mil following these changes, while still not even being close to the share taken by Tritanium, Pyerite and Mexallon. Tritanium alone accounts for 73 mil in the case of the Abaddon battleship, for an example. Just curious when you say net supply/demand being positive do you mean that there is an excess supply--i.e. more on the market than is being bought?
More or less ya, it seems that the consumers of the bulk low ends (capital/supercapital producers) have begun pulling buy orders, supply is also likely up as folks are trying to dump their stocks before the market for low ends implodes on itself, since the majority of low end miners just dump their **** into the buy orders, filthy casuals tanking the market faster than any NS cartel ever could...hear that Dinsdale.
Highends still seem to be under represented though on the whole. Which is probably because folks in NS are collectively sitting on their hands waiting for the changes to process.
It should be good couple months for the asset junkies to stock up on cheaper stuff, before the market balances back out and production becomes more expensive though, especially on the lower end. (probably won't see the price effectively rise until mid june/july depending on what Sov changes Fozzie has in store for us.) |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2783
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 16:54:20 -
[672] - Quote
GankYou wrote:As I've mentioned, it will rebalance with the prices of Lowends going lower and spreading their share to Highends in a few months time. Tritanium alone going from 5.5 to 4.5 would shave 14 mil off the cost. Mexallon at 42-43 ISK p/u is also nice. Oooh, and Pyerite at 9.35, and Isogen at 105 p/u... And...
I think this is correct. We haven't seen all the dust settle on this yet.
Heck I'm not even entirely convinced that the market for low end minerals will change all that much since about the same amount will essentially be used. What will change is who gets "paid" for those low ends which is why many HS miners are complaining. If null miners start soaking up lots more low ends and then either selling to the builders (also) or building with it themselves then I'm not sure the prices will be impacted that much.
And then there will be avoided transport costs as well. Instead of having to move disgusting amounts of low ends and spend millions on JF Fuel.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2783
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 16:55:41 -
[673] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:GankYou wrote:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=417056&find=unread Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015] stated on April 6th - for those of you interested. Both Mexallon & Tritanium net supply/demand has gone positive for the first time since 2013. Then - it may have been decreased demand in times of peace, this time it is a structural and fundamental move: http://eve-markets.net/detail?typeid=34#supply http://eve-markets.net/detail?typeid=36#supply I welcome the coming reasonable T1 cost rebalance, courtesy of the Eternal Market Forces, in light of the doubling of Mega & Zyd inputs in manufacturing. Battleship cost will go up by mere 13-17 mil following these changes, while still not even being close to the share taken by Tritanium, Pyerite and Mexallon. Tritanium alone accounts for 73 mil in the case of the Abaddon battleship, for an example. Just curious when you say net supply/demand being positive do you mean that there is an excess supply--i.e. more on the market than is being bought? Of course. Enter 1800 there and see the its dynamics for the last 5 years. Price history for long-er periods can also be obtained the same way - on the History tab.
Ahhh....1800...awesome did not know that. Duh.
Was just thinking having a nice longer history would be nice. Thanks.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Mario Putzo
1209
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 17:04:27 -
[674] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:GankYou wrote:As I've mentioned, it will rebalance with the prices of Lowends going lower and spreading their share to Highends in a few months time. Tritanium alone going from 5.5 to 4.5 would shave 14 mil off the cost. Mexallon at 42-43 ISK p/u is also nice. Oooh, and Pyerite at 9.35, and Isogen at 105 p/u... And... I think this is correct. We haven't seen all the dust settle on this yet. Heck I'm not even entirely convinced that the market for low end minerals will change all that much since about the same amount will essentially be used. What will change is who gets "paid" for those low ends which is why many HS miners are complaining. If null miners start soaking up lots more low ends and then either selling to the builders (also) or building with it themselves then I'm not sure the prices will be impacted that much. And then there will be avoided transport costs as well. Instead of having to move disgusting amounts of low ends and spend millions on JF Fuel.
Im not entirely sure why the miners would be complaining, their product is still going to be consumed at the same rate, and its still going to be more time efficient for the producers of "big stuff" to pull low ends from HS, at least until JFs get hit with a 5ly Jump Range. They might lose a bit of income to NS for smaller scale module producers though who can more easily source production from their own backyards (but really for module and most ship production this has always been the case anyway). I personally do not see NS becoming a bastion of mining fleets, then again, tweaks to the industrial bonuses from Fozziesov have yet to be fully ironed out by CCP so there may yet be even more incentive coming to miners in NS.
The only folks who have a legit gripe are T1 producers in HS, and even then, its only the entry level to mid skilled producers that will get hit, anyone who can produce T2 in HS will just be able to roll the costs over. |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
146
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 17:05:01 -
[675] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Just looked at the 5 year history of pyerite and I have to say, the market for pyerite seems rather unperturbed by the proposed changes. Back in 2013 there was quite a stretch where pyerite prices were well under 12 ISK (sell order price). And there does not seem to be a sudden drop in pyerite prices in the last 60 days. There has been a slight decrease in price, but we are talking from a sell order price high of 12.83 to 12.1. That is is well above where it was in 2013.
No major price moves will happen until either the demand shifts from Highsec to Null, or till the newly-generated supply in Nullsec starts to leave the one in HS high and dry, or both. Such fundamental changes happen gradually and can not be forced by the market due the nature of these very resources.
A 14% drop in the price of Mexallon since Feb is a notable start.
As it stands right now, smart people are disposing of liabilities, i.e. capital ships, lowend mineral stocks, etc. I myself have quite a few Lowends locked in SKINed Battleship hulls right now.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Mario Putzo
1209
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 17:07:14 -
[676] - Quote
GankYou wrote:No major price moves will happen until either the demand shifts from Highsec to Null, or till the newly-generated supply in Nullsec starts to leave the one in HS high and dry, or both. As it stands right now, smart people are disposing of liabilities, i.e. capital ships, lowend mineral stocks, battleships, etc. I myself have quite a few Lowends locked in SKINed Battleship hulls right now.
Hell ya, its a good time to be an asset junkie that is for sure. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2783
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 17:17:26 -
[677] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
Just looked at the 5 year history of pyerite and I have to say, the market for pyerite seems rather unperturbed by the proposed changes. Back in 2013 there was quite a stretch where pyerite prices were well under 12 ISK (sell order price). And there does not seem to be a sudden drop in pyerite prices in the last 60 days. There has been a slight decrease in price, but we are talking from a sell order price high of 12.83 to 12.1. That is is well above where it was in 2013.
No major price moves will happen until either the demand shifts from Highsec to Null, or till the newly-generated supply in Nullsec starts to leave the one in HS high and dry, or both. Such fundamental changes happen gradually and can not be forced by the market due the nature of the resources. A 14% drop in the price of Mexallon since Feb is a notable start. As it stands right now, smart people are disposing of liabilities, i.e. capital ships, lowend mineral stocks, etc. I myself have quite a few Lowends locked in SKINed Battleship hulls right now.
I'm not totally convinced we'll see a price move even then. After all trit is the same no matter where you are. Of course we have a global market right now in game with a big chunk of it moving through Jita 4-4 and Amarr...if the market becomes more distributed and less transportation costs...v0v.
At any rate, I'm very curious to see how things play out.
My guess is we have yet to see the price of zydrine hit its peak. Same for megacyte.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
153
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 17:17:27 -
[678] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote: The only folks who have a legit gripe are T1 producers in HS, and even then, its only the entry level to mid skilled producers that will get hit, anyone who can produce T2 in HS will just be able to roll the costs over.
Why would producers be discontent? They should be delighted.
Lower input costs, means lower prices for the customer, which in turns means more inventory gets moved - you can even retain the same profit margins.
Teckos Pech wrote:GankYou wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
Just looked at the 5 year history of pyerite and I have to say, the market for pyerite seems rather unperturbed by the proposed changes. Back in 2013 there was quite a stretch where pyerite prices were well under 12 ISK (sell order price). And there does not seem to be a sudden drop in pyerite prices in the last 60 days. There has been a slight decrease in price, but we are talking from a sell order price high of 12.83 to 12.1. That is is well above where it was in 2013.
No major price moves will happen until either the demand shifts from Highsec to Null, or till the newly-generated supply in Nullsec starts to leave the one in HS high and dry, or both. Such fundamental changes happen gradually and can not be forced by the market due the nature of the resources. A 14% drop in the price of Mexallon since Feb is a notable start. As it stands right now, smart people are disposing of liabilities, i.e. capital ships, lowend mineral stocks, etc. I myself have quite a few Lowends locked in SKINed Battleship hulls right now. I'm not totally convinced we'll see a price move even then. After all trit is the same no matter where you are. Of course we have a global market right now in game with a big chunk of it moving through Jita 4-4 and Amarr...if the market becomes more distributed and less transportation costs...v0v. At any rate, I'm very curious to see how things play out. My guess is we have yet to see the price of zydrine hit its peak. Same for megacyte.
Like I said, this is only the beginning - new supply coming online and demand shifting elsewhere is an irresistible Force and can not be reasoned with.
As for Mega/Zyd - I see them going back to the good old days, well, perhaps not 5600/4000 ISK p/u respectively, but closer to 4500/3100, maybe even more, courtesy of the Sov system shake up and ensuing wars.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Mario Putzo
1209
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 17:28:25 -
[679] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Mario Putzo wrote: The only folks who have a legit gripe are T1 producers in HS, and even then, its only the entry level to mid skilled producers that will get hit, anyone who can produce T2 in HS will just be able to roll the costs over.
Why would producers be discontent? They should be delighted. Lower input costs, means lower prices for the customer, which in turns means more inventory gets moved - you can even retain the same profit margins.
For entry level production and mid skilled production this won't be the case though. Market availability for the High Ends is going to be diminished, the severity of course depends on how much folks take to NS production revamps. either way it is bad for entry level producers and guys who can't roll costs into T2 production. For folks who are already invested into production (skill wise/BP research wise) it won't be as big an issue.
CCP seems to be taking with one hand and giving with the other. For folks coming into the game production is being pushed a little more out of their reach, same applies to folks already in game looking for something to do.
I mean for me this is all gravy, and on a personal level I can't complain really either way. But as a fan of EVE and its many professions, this is going to impact folks new to production (all be it existing players will have the capital to support this, despite having lacking skills I am sure.) |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2783
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 17:32:14 -
[680] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Mario Putzo wrote: The only folks who have a legit gripe are T1 producers in HS, and even then, its only the entry level to mid skilled producers that will get hit, anyone who can produce T2 in HS will just be able to roll the costs over.
Why would producers be discontent? They should be delighted. Lower input costs, means lower prices for the customer, which in turns means more inventory gets moved - you can even retain the same profit margins.
Maybe. Lower input costs change the variable cost portion of manufacturing. That is not a huge thing, IMO. What is bigger are fixed costs. High fixed costs can act as a barrier to entry. A barrier to entry favors current market participants--i.e. they have more market power than they otherwise would have--i.e. higher prices and profit margins.
What would be a barrier in HS? Back before the changes to industry it was a POS which had fairly significant HS costs. You needed standings which you either had to grind or pay someone. Now that is gone. I don't recall much hand wringing and protesting during those changes, but then I wasn't watching the forums like now.
I can't but think that most of the sturm und drang in this thread is due to rent seeking. Many HS players are seeing things change possibly negatively for them and so they come here and complain. Perfect example, was that poster a few pages back demanding that HS mining income be maintained at its current level no matter what.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
155
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 17:34:19 -
[681] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:GankYou wrote:Mario Putzo wrote: The only folks who have a legit gripe are T1 producers in HS, and even then, its only the entry level to mid skilled producers that will get hit, anyone who can produce T2 in HS will just be able to roll the costs over.
Why would producers be discontent? They should be delighted. Lower input costs, means lower prices for the customer, which in turns means more inventory gets moved - you can even retain the same profit margins. For entry level production and mid skilled production this won't be the case though.
Give a few examples with Blueprint Bill of Materials and we will see whether that is the case.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2784
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 17:36:55 -
[682] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Like I said, this is only the beginning - new supply coming online and demand shifting elsewhere is an irresistible Force and can not be reasoned with. As for Mega/Zyd - I see them going back to the good old days, well, perhaps not 5600/4000 ISK p/u respectively, but closer to 4500/3100, maybe spiking even more, courtesy of the Sov system shake up and ensuing wars.
Agreed.
This might even help with keeping inflation under control. If mining becomes a ThingGäó in null for generating income and it pulls people out of the anomalies...then less ISK entering the economy lower inflation. At the very least this change will limit a surge in inflation due to more people ratting in null.
Note to self: train my alts for mining as well as ratting.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
157
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 17:39:45 -
[683] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:GankYou wrote:[ Like I said, this is only the beginning - new supply coming online and demand shifting elsewhere is an irresistible Force and can not be reasoned with. As for Mega/Zyd - I see them going back to the good old days, well, perhaps not 5600/4000 ISK p/u respectively, but closer to 4500/3100, maybe spiking even more, courtesy of the Sov system shake up and ensuing wars. Agreed. This might even help with keeping inflation under control. If mining becomes a ThingGäó in null for generating income and it pulls people out of the anomalies...then less ISK entering the economy lower inflation. At the very least this change will limit a surge in inflation due to more people ratting in null. Note to self: train my alts for mining as well as ratting.
I picked up a few nuggets again over the week - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5690383#post5690383
Heheh.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Mario Putzo
1209
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 17:47:36 -
[684] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:GankYou wrote:Mario Putzo wrote: The only folks who have a legit gripe are T1 producers in HS, and even then, its only the entry level to mid skilled producers that will get hit, anyone who can produce T2 in HS will just be able to roll the costs over.
Why would producers be discontent? They should be delighted. Lower input costs, means lower prices for the customer, which in turns means more inventory gets moved - you can even retain the same profit margins. For entry level production and mid skilled production this won't be the case though. Give a few examples with Blueprint Bill of Materials and we will see whether that is the case. Yes, overnight costs on products involving Zydr & Megacyte on April 28th will go up, but over time the net will either stay the same or even decrease due to lowends returning to their historical mean prices.
I think you overestimate the change in lowend pricing to be quite honest, and underestimate the scope of production moving to NS. Add on the possibility of JFs range being reduced then you are going to have less coming into the market.
On top of which T1 production is already a minimized market, its general use price is capped by Meta Mods, and T2 producers will likely begin producing even more of their own T1 stuff because it will be effectively cheaper to do so and cut out the middleman post changes.
In regards to bill of materials. If I remember after work ill toss up some examples I don't have any of my tables in front of me here. |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
159
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 17:49:53 -
[685] - Quote
I'm overestimating, you're underestimating - something has to give, something has to give.
See you this Summer!
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2784
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 17:50:04 -
[686] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:GankYou wrote:[ Like I said, this is only the beginning - new supply coming online and demand shifting elsewhere is an irresistible Force and can not be reasoned with. As for Mega/Zyd - I see them going back to the good old days, well, perhaps not 5600/4000 ISK p/u respectively, but closer to 4500/3100, maybe spiking even more, courtesy of the Sov system shake up and ensuing wars. Agreed. This might even help with keeping inflation under control. If mining becomes a ThingGäó in null for generating income and it pulls people out of the anomalies...then less ISK entering the economy lower inflation. At the very least this change will limit a surge in inflation due to more people ratting in null. Note to self: train my alts for mining as well as ratting. I picked up a few nuggets again over the week - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5690383#post5690383 Heheh.
Heh, good move.
Actually, with changes to structures, mining anoms, I'm quite excited. Fozziesov has me a bit worried as the other two can and likely will be iterated on and tweaked. Fozziesov doesn't seem as easily tweaked (hopefully I'm wrong). But depending on how it works, semi-afk mining in null could be possible. By semi-afk I mean form a fleet with more than one person and take shifts watching local/intel/etc. The rest can talk on comms and/or do other stuff.
I'm hoping that the Observation Array has a network aspect of it so that we can dispense with putting cloaked alts in neighboring systems.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2784
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 17:52:10 -
[687] - Quote
GankYou wrote:I'm overestimating, you're underestimating - something has to give, something has to give. See you this Summer!
The answer is somewhere in the middle. Interesting "fact" averaging two or more forecasts often results in a better forecast...so Zydrine around 2,500/unit and megacyte at 3750/unit. Still a good investment...even now.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
162
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 17:59:26 -
[688] - Quote
My Lowend forecasts weren't in the extreme, otherwise I present 3.5 Trit, 7.7 Pyerite, 32 Mex and 80 Isogen for you.
Averaging these opposing views brings you back to my reasonable prices found on the previous page, which have a scientific basis built into them.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Mario Putzo
1212
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 18:07:02 -
[689] - Quote
GankYou wrote:My Lowend forecasts weren't in the extreme, otherwise I present 3.5 Trit, 7.7 Pyerite, 32 Mex and 80 Isogen for you. Averaging these opposing views brings you back to my reasonable prices found on the previous page, which have a scientific basis built into them.
Seems reasonable and somewhat close to the numbers i had the other day (4T 10P, 40M, 90I) So i guess we in discussions over what 5% call it a wash?
e: My highs were a bit different too, A little closer to 5/3.5 (M/Z) but I also took some liberties and assumed Fozzies plan works and more ore stays in NS than comes to HS. |
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Shadow of xXDEATHXx
179
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 18:08:22 -
[690] - Quote
last time ccp changed the ores I had an excess of 50m zydrine. wonder it its that high this time. |
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
163
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 18:09:23 -
[691] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:GankYou wrote:My Lowend forecasts weren't in the extreme, otherwise I present 3.5 Trit, 7.7 Pyerite, 32 Mex and 80 Isogen for you. Averaging these opposing views brings you back to my reasonable prices found on the previous page, which have a scientific basis built into them. Seems reasonable and somewhat close to the numbers i had the other day (4T 10P, 40M, 90I) So i guess we in discussions over what 5% call it a wash?
That's even more extreme than my original forecast,
GankYou wrote:As I've mentioned, it will rebalance with the prices of Lowends going lower and spreading their share to Highends in a few months time. Tritanium alone going from 5.5 to 4.5 would shave 14 mil off the cost. Mexallon at 42-43 ISK p/u is also nice. Oooh, and Pyerite at 9.35, and Isogen at 105 p/u... And...
I don't see them going any lower than this +-5%. Not with the capital ships firmly established in the game.
Damn capital ships.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Mario Putzo
1212
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 18:13:51 -
[692] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:GankYou wrote:My Lowend forecasts weren't in the extreme, otherwise I present 3.5 Trit, 7.7 Pyerite, 32 Mex and 80 Isogen for you. Averaging these opposing views brings you back to my reasonable prices found on the previous page, which have a scientific basis built into them. Seems reasonable and somewhat close to the numbers i had the other day (4T 10P, 40M, 90I) So i guess we in discussions over what 5% call it a wash? That's even more extreme than my original forecast, GankYou wrote:As I've mentioned, it will rebalance with the prices of Lowends going lower and spreading their share to Highends in a few months time. Tritanium alone going from 5.5 to 4.5 would shave 14 mil off the cost. Mexallon at 42-43 ISK p/u is also nice. Oooh, and Pyerite at 9.35, and Isogen at 105 p/u... And... I don't see them going any lower than this +-5%. Not with the capital ships firmly established in the game. Damn capital ships.
True enough, the only outlier really is how much ore stays in NS compared to today...and if JFs change at all, then the price in HS for M/Z will increase more than just flat out availabilty metrics....I suppose time will tell. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2785
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 18:36:37 -
[693] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:
True enough, the only outlier really is how much ore stays in NS compared to today...and if JFs change at all, then the price in HS for M/Z will increase more than just flat out availabilty metrics....I suppose time will tell.
With a nerf to JFs we might see more regional differences in pricing as well.
To use out of game examples...
Oil is largely a global market. Gasoline, is much more regional (due to various blend requirements). The latter typically results in more volatility in prices/quantity.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Shakuul
Infinitus Sapientia
5
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 23:48:36 -
[694] - Quote
Will any of the manufacturing changes go to the test server before being released live? |
Mario Putzo
1215
|
Posted - 2015.04.25 03:52:10 -
[695] - Quote
Shakuul wrote:Will any of the manufacturing changes go to the test server before being released live?
There isn't really anything they can test to be honest as there isn't much in the way of mechanic changes. I mean maybe they could test how the NS Anoms look, but in terms of pure manufacturing they are just changing input quantities needed so no testing needs to be done there.
Its really to broad of scope for any accurate feedback anyway since it is mostly reliant on the market adjusting, as such Sisi will only provide false data in comparison to the market on TQ, and there is much much more volatility on TQ compared to Sisi that will impact these changes in the weeks/months to come.
Stuff like
> Players sitting on stockpiles or minerals/ores > Players moving/not moving to NS > Sov NS volatility (especially with Fozzie Sov upcoming) > POS volatility (especially with potential revamps to POS modules)
These are things that will all impact these changes moving forward, and stuff Sisi can not give any accurate feedback on. The only thing CCP can do is put these changes in, wait a few months, and take a look at what the impact is, and tune them as needed. Id wager that we won't have an accurate vision of the hard numbers until after summer going into winter, largely because of the sov changes, the fact EVE is notorious for summer inactivity, and of course the annual "Winter is Coming" war chest build up, courtesy the RUS RUS.
And of course, since everything is market related, so folks with deep pockets can manipulate the changes for some time before everything settles in. |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
166
|
Posted - 2015.04.25 06:52:12 -
[696] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote: Its really to broad of scope for any accurate feedback anyway since it is mostly reliant on the market adjusting, as such Sisi will only provide false data in comparison to the market on TQ, and there is much much more volatility on TQ compared to Sisi that will impact these changes in the weeks/months to come.
By volatility on TQ, you mean liquidity, for higher liquidity equals lower volatility.
A very liquid marked moving on fundamental changes does truly represent the full scope of said changes, and can not be simulated in a lab environment like Singularity - that is true.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Mario Putzo
1216
|
Posted - 2015.04.25 07:38:12 -
[697] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Mario Putzo wrote: Its really to broad of scope for any accurate feedback anyway since it is mostly reliant on the market adjusting, as such Sisi will only provide false data in comparison to the market on TQ, and there is much much more volatility on TQ compared to Sisi that will impact these changes in the weeks/months to come.
By volatility on TQ, you mean liquidity, for higher liquidity equals lower volatility. A very liquid marked moving on fundamental changes does truly represent the full scope of said changes, and can not be simulated in a lab environment like Singularity - that is true.
I was mostly referring to volatile decisions by players, since they drive the market. But same out come regardless. |
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
541
|
Posted - 2015.04.25 08:01:42 -
[698] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:I was mostly referring to volatile decisions by players, since they drive the market. But same out come regardless.
Anyone making a "volatile decision" in a marketplace generally doesn't have enough ISK to have a serious impact on that market.
Manipulation, on the other hand...
edit: yes you mentioned manipulation above :) just pointing out most large swings in markets are not from an accidental "volatile decision" |
Daerrol
Furtherance.
127
|
Posted - 2015.04.25 15:08:16 -
[699] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:So in six months it will be supers and tech3 online. Almost interesting changes for null space.
I foresee ships and gear prices skyrocket, nullsec says 'screw empire space, ahahahahaha' and stops exporting all together. Nobody can buy gear and ships anymore and everyone is forced to fly newly gimped tech3, nullsec flies supers and titans all day long.
nullsec get good(ererer) and empire is a tritanium haven for bittervets -> EVE offline. Don't worry smart manufacturers and exporters are already adjusting. |
Mario Putzo
1216
|
Posted - 2015.04.25 16:01:28 -
[700] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:I was mostly referring to volatile decisions by players, since they drive the market. But same out come regardless. Anyone making a "volatile decision" in a marketplace generally doesn't have enough ISK to have a serious impact on that market. Manipulation, on the other hand... edit: yes you mentioned manipulation above :) just pointing out most large swings in markets are not from an accidental "volatile decision"
Eh i guess I should have been more specific. I am not specifically talking about people making unpredictable market transactions, more so the impact from unpredictable decisions in conflict drivers (Sov, POS takeovers etc). For example. NC./Darkness attacking CFC in Fountain a month ago, was a volatile decision...now Delve/Querious/PB are on fire, POSes burning down and thousands of renters are either hunkered down in NPC space, or fleeing to LS/HS. Same vein different scope would be CFC pulling back from Fountain, Cloud Ring. Thats a big material vacuum, especially in the cases of Fountain and Delve.
And all this largely because Fozzie only had to make a dev post about potential changes to how we build our sandcastles in the future.
|
|
Zemfadel
Hand Trade Society
7
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 06:04:02 -
[701] - Quote
This still doesn't fix the reason no one mines...
theoretical max isk/hour mining would be MAYBE 60M with these changes, so actual would be something closer to 30M and you would need minimum of 6 people mining at once (4 miners, hauler, booster).
You can pretty easily make 60M/hour ratting (iirc, it's been a while since i ratted) solo with generally the same risk and slightly less boringness.
If you want people to mine in null you can't have an alternative that has similar risk, is more entertaining, and nets you double the profit... You have to either increase the profit or decrease the risk relative to ratting |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2344
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 06:38:54 -
[702] - Quote
Zemfadel wrote:This still doesn't fix the reason no one mines...
theoretical max isk/hour mining would be MAYBE 60M with these changes, so actual would be something closer to 30M and you would need minimum of 6 people mining at once (4 miners, hauler, booster).
You can pretty easily make 60M/hour ratting (iirc, it's been a while since i ratted) solo with generally the same risk and slightly less boringness.
If you want people to mine in null you can't have an alternative that has similar risk, is more entertaining, and nets you double the profit... You have to either increase the profit or decrease the risk relative to ratting No matter what changes you make, mining will always be subject to market forces and driven down to whatever level it settles at.
And plenty of people mine. It's exactly the reason mining has its lower income rates. |
marly cortez
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
87
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 08:54:24 -
[703] - Quote
Gave up on mining in December, un-subbed ten accounts and trashed the equipment due to CCP's ham fisted nerf's.
Nothing here entices me to consider mining as a profession again, Tinkering with Ore contents which were never the real issues with mining in the first place will not solve the problems as pointed out by Our Anzac member.
'FozzieSov' and his 'Tosser' units will in my view seal the fate of Null Sec mining anyway as there will be so few players in Null Sec doing anything interesting except 'Griefing' each other his plans to turn EVE into one gigantic Jita 4-4 undock scenario will result in only one end, Players will own nothing, build nothing and plan nothing in Null Sec so not much point in mining out there.
Happy now to just run two toons ratting, make double plus the ISK and not have the bother of running a mining fleet at all while I watch these fools trash the game for hundreds of players.
Way to Go Fozzie, LoSec born and bred.
Own nothing, Build nothing, Plan nothing, Just blow it all up, you know it makes perfect sense, Fozzie says so.
|
Mario Putzo
1231
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 13:02:33 -
[704] - Quote
Zemfadel wrote:This still doesn't fix the reason no one mines...
theoretical max isk/hour mining would be MAYBE 60M with these changes, so actual would be something closer to 30M and you would need minimum of 6 people mining at once (4 miners, hauler, booster).
You can pretty easily make 60M/hour ratting (iirc, it's been a while since i ratted) solo with generally the same risk and slightly less boringness.
If you want people to mine in null you can't have an alternative that has similar risk, is more entertaining, and nets you double the profit... You have to either increase the profit or decrease the risk relative to ratting
The fun thing about mining for profit is the more people that do it, the less profitable it becomes. Yay markets! |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
170
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 13:16:23 -
[705] - Quote
marly cortez wrote:Gave up on mining in December, un-subbed ten accounts and trashed the equipment due to CCP's ham fisted nerf's.
You mean, ISBoxer ban, darling?
Don't be hurt.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6715
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 13:17:38 -
[706] - Quote
marly cortez wrote:Gave up on mining in December, un-subbed ten accounts and trashed the equipment due to CCP's ham fisted nerf's. Nothing here entices me to consider mining as a profession again, Tinkering with Ore contents which were never the real issues with mining in the first place will not solve the problems as pointed out by Our Anzac member. 'FozzieSov' and his 'Tosser' units will in my view seal the fate of Null Sec mining anyway as there will be so few players in Null Sec doing anything interesting except 'Griefing' each other his plans to turn EVE into one gigantic Jita 4-4 undock scenario will result in only one end, Players will own nothing, build nothing and plan nothing in Null Sec so not much point in mining out there. Happy now to just run two toons ratting, make double plus the ISK and not have the bother of running a mining fleet at all while I watch these fools trash the game for hundreds of players. Way to Go Fozzie, LoSec born and bred. Don't worry.
Once the ihubs get trashed your ratting income will fall off a cliff
Or perhaps another anom nerf, thanks to all the people bragging about their ratting
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
|
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
772
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 17:54:20 -
[707] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:marly cortez wrote:Gave up on mining in December, un-subbed ten accounts and trashed the equipment due to CCP's ham fisted nerf's. Nothing here entices me to consider mining as a profession again, Tinkering with Ore contents which were never the real issues with mining in the first place will not solve the problems as pointed out by Our Anzac member. 'FozzieSov' and his 'Tosser' units will in my view seal the fate of Null Sec mining anyway as there will be so few players in Null Sec doing anything interesting except 'Griefing' each other his plans to turn EVE into one gigantic Jita 4-4 undock scenario will result in only one end, Players will own nothing, build nothing and plan nothing in Null Sec so not much point in mining out there. Happy now to just run two toons ratting, make double plus the ISK and not have the bother of running a mining fleet at all while I watch these fools trash the game for hundreds of players. Way to Go Fozzie, LoSec born and bred. Don't worry. Once the ihubs get trashed your ratting income will fall off a cliff Or perhaps another anom nerf, thanks to all the people bragging about their ratting
Don't forget that the IHubs also have the industrial upgrades too, and most null systems don't spawn the ABCM ores in the normal belts.
Yay, Fozziesov!
"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves."
The Trial - Franz Kafka-á
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2794
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 04:48:51 -
[708] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Zemfadel wrote:This still doesn't fix the reason no one mines...
theoretical max isk/hour mining would be MAYBE 60M with these changes, so actual would be something closer to 30M and you would need minimum of 6 people mining at once (4 miners, hauler, booster).
You can pretty easily make 60M/hour ratting (iirc, it's been a while since i ratted) solo with generally the same risk and slightly less boringness.
If you want people to mine in null you can't have an alternative that has similar risk, is more entertaining, and nets you double the profit... You have to either increase the profit or decrease the risk relative to ratting No matter what changes you make, mining will always be subject to market forces and driven down to whatever level it settles at. And plenty of people mine. It's exactly the reason mining has its lower income rates.
I was going to respond...but this is more than sufficient.
Okay, I will add that if JFs get nerfed and null corps, alliances and coalitions become more concentrated then there will need to be more income generation that simply ratting. If all the sanctums and havens and such are full...maybe go get out your mining ships instead and kill a few mining anoms.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2794
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 04:50:22 -
[709] - Quote
GankYou wrote:marly cortez wrote:Gave up on mining in December, un-subbed ten accounts and trashed the equipment due to CCP's ham fisted nerf's.
You mean, ISBoxer ban, darling? Don't be hurt. See what happens when bots run wild on the Eve server Serenity - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4990317 Only the bots and people who sell their PLEX, or RMT to do PvP are left in the game, no human is seen doing any PvE, and everything is 3-10x times more expensive. Incidentally, that thread was posted on Sept of 2014, and let run to 6 pages.
Yes, the ISBoxer ban (well the limited ban that is).
Don't try using logic with the overly emotional it rarely works.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
182
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 11:52:56 -
[710] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:GankYou wrote:marly cortez wrote:Gave up on mining in December, un-subbed ten accounts and trashed the equipment due to CCP's ham fisted nerf's.
You mean, ISBoxer ban, darling? Don't be hurt. See what happens when bots run wild on the Eve server Serenity - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4990317 Only the bots and people who sell their PLEX, or RMT to do PvP are left in the game, no human is seen doing any PvE, and everything is 3-10x times more expensive. Incidentally, that thread was posted on Sept of 2014, and let run to 6 pages. Yes, the ISBoxer ban (well the limited ban that is). Don't try using logic with the overly emotional it rarely works.
Bots can not deny the most Holy Logic algorithms, it is against their nature - they just shut down.
On-topic: Lowend prices have turned lower on fundamental news of nullsecks ore changes, after the expected ramp shortly after the ISBoxer ban in November - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5698547#post5698547
That didn't last long.
Some butthurt denizens were prophesying 300 mil Tech 1 cruisers and 3bn ISK Tengu after the November policy shift.
Oh well vOv
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
|
Mario Putzo
1276
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 04:25:38 -
[711] - Quote
Good luck in market PVP tomorrow and the weeks to come everyone! |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1119
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 04:48:10 -
[712] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Good luck in market PVP tomorrow and the weeks to come everyone!
It may well be a WTF??? moment when I get back from holiday and hit the market for the first time! |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6716
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 05:46:59 -
[713] - Quote
Falin Whalen wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:marly cortez wrote:Gave up on mining in December, un-subbed ten accounts and trashed the equipment due to CCP's ham fisted nerf's. Nothing here entices me to consider mining as a profession again, Tinkering with Ore contents which were never the real issues with mining in the first place will not solve the problems as pointed out by Our Anzac member. 'FozzieSov' and his 'Tosser' units will in my view seal the fate of Null Sec mining anyway as there will be so few players in Null Sec doing anything interesting except 'Griefing' each other his plans to turn EVE into one gigantic Jita 4-4 undock scenario will result in only one end, Players will own nothing, build nothing and plan nothing in Null Sec so not much point in mining out there. Happy now to just run two toons ratting, make double plus the ISK and not have the bother of running a mining fleet at all while I watch these fools trash the game for hundreds of players. Way to Go Fozzie, LoSec born and bred. Don't worry. Once the ihubs get trashed your ratting income will fall off a cliff Or perhaps another anom nerf, thanks to all the people bragging about their ratting Don't forget that the IHubs also have the industrial upgrades too, and most null systems don't spawn the ABCM ores in the normal belts. Yay, Fozziesov! A single mining ihub goes a long way. plus it has a bunch of barges in the system
you don't see that with ratters, something something density
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
|
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
335
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 07:19:37 -
[714] - Quote
If no one is mining where are all the new ships coming from? people are welping ships all the time. Even titans. You can't plex the materials you need to build these things. Someone, somewhere is mining. Mining a *lot*.
Even though i am not yet a bittervet, overall prices for a lot of things have come down a *lot* since i have been here.
Oh and we see mining in nullsec all the time. However the millisecond that a non blue turns up in local they doc up/pos up.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
|
Ser Owen
Owen Industries Poopstain Removal Team
8
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 08:07:17 -
[715] - Quote
Not saying I am pleased or displeased at the increased use of zydrine or megacyte. The market will sort that out. It's just, I get to redo my spreadsheets all over again, again... ffs. |
Lord Nighthawk
Black Serpent Technologies Black Legion.
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 08:55:38 -
[716] - Quote
fix the refining soon ??? |
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Shadow of xXDEATHXx
180
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 09:56:19 -
[717] - Quote
Lord Nighthawk wrote:fix the refining soon ??? whats to fix about the refining? its perfectly fine as it is |
Anthar Thebess
1013
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 11:27:03 -
[718] - Quote
Ncc 1709 wrote:Lord Nighthawk wrote:fix the refining soon ??? whats to fix about the refining? its perfectly fine as it is Alchemy reactions. You get stuff you cannot reprocess on pos array.
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
|
Lakotnik
TSOE Po1ice TSOE Consortium
8
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:05:12 -
[719] - Quote
Why are the rocks so small and so far apart in belts after the patch?
|
Aurumfault Shiptoaster
Blood Oath Foundation DARKNESS.
3
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:52:47 -
[720] - Quote
Lakotnik wrote:Why are the rocks so small and so far apart in belts after the patch?
It's visually disappointing isn't it? Everything that should be there is there, but it's so empty. If you're on an overview tab without asteroids you can't even tell you've arrived.
All the high unit count rocks are gone (because most of those were high sec ores).
Rock size ought to scale with the total volume of their ores, instead of the number of units. That way a 1000 unit mercoxit rock would be 400 times the size of a 1000 unit veldspar rock, instead of the current identical size.
They should also scale their diameter to cube root (a rock with 8 times the volume should have only 2 times the diameter) rather than the current (apparently) linear scaling.
|
|
Lakotnik
TSOE Po1ice TSOE Consortium
8
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:38:04 -
[721] - Quote
Aurumfault Shiptoaster wrote:Lakotnik wrote:Why are the rocks so small and so far apart in belts after the patch?
It's visually disappointing isn't it? Everything that should be there is there, but it's so empty. If you're on an overview tab without asteroids you can't even tell you've arrived. All the high unit count rocks are gone (because most of those were high sec ores). Rock size ought to scale with the total volume of their ores, instead of the number of units. That way a 1000 unit mercoxit rock would be 400 times the size of a 1000 unit veldspar rock, instead of the current identical size. They should also scale their diameter to cube root (a rock with 8 times the volume should have only 2 times the diameter) rather than the current (apparently) linear scaling.
QFT.
The sizes of rocks is way too small. It's even smaller than high-sec ores, even though the volume is larger.
And I'd prefer if some rocks were high-unit count, I loved mining Crokite in Enormous for 4 hours straight, without having to re-target or move my Hulks. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1735
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 14:13:53 -
[722] - Quote
Falin Whalen wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:marly cortez wrote:Gave up on mining in December, un-subbed ten accounts and trashed the equipment due to CCP's ham fisted nerf's. Nothing here entices me to consider mining as a profession again, Tinkering with Ore contents which were never the real issues with mining in the first place will not solve the problems as pointed out by Our Anzac member. 'FozzieSov' and his 'Tosser' units will in my view seal the fate of Null Sec mining anyway as there will be so few players in Null Sec doing anything interesting except 'Griefing' each other his plans to turn EVE into one gigantic Jita 4-4 undock scenario will result in only one end, Players will own nothing, build nothing and plan nothing in Null Sec so not much point in mining out there. Happy now to just run two toons ratting, make double plus the ISK and not have the bother of running a mining fleet at all while I watch these fools trash the game for hundreds of players. Way to Go Fozzie, LoSec born and bred. Don't worry. Once the ihubs get trashed your ratting income will fall off a cliff Or perhaps another anom nerf, thanks to all the people bragging about their ratting Don't forget that the IHubs also have the industrial upgrades too, and most null systems don't spawn the ABCM ores in the normal belts. Yay, Fozziesov!
For the big guys like you, it will be an annoyance for sure but if any small allliance ever gets a few systems and want to raise it's industry index and use the upgrade, I fear large group will burn it down because :reasons: thus making them close to un-usable.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6716
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 18:57:26 -
[723] - Quote
Well it happens. You know how these things are.
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
|
Mr Gus
Egg separator cooperative
17
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 21:27:52 -
[724] - Quote
i hope you ccp to bankrut to some oder buy and made eve good game you work only to destroi game hope you hapy after all ppl leave, is no need be genius to see yo u server is have evry day less loget from last before, y is no only eve space based game any more i am mad mad |
Selaria Unbertable
POS Mortem Renegades Of Silence
78
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 12:52:04 -
[725] - Quote
@CCP Fozzie The new mineral composition is fine and all, but you guys forgot to adjust the volumes of the compressed ores. Right now, the best way to compress Tritanium is Compressed Hemorphite, with a whooping compression ratio of over 1:100 (meaning 1m-¦ of compressed ore contains over 100m-¦ of minerals if refined, the intended ratio is about 1:20). Best for Pyerite? Hedbergite with around 1:70. Jaspet is still fine, but all the 0.0 ores have the same problem, their ratio is too high. If this is intended, I won't complain. Instead I'll be putting up buy orders for those in Jita next time I need larger quantities |
kleinduimpie
The 7 star Pirates
1
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 12:15:22 -
[726] - Quote
It is all nice to rebalance but what about the high sec manufactors, they being screwed as there is no megacyte and zydrine in high sec they have to be independed from market and that just rised about double the isk
You guys might all be great with this but really i think with all this rebalacing the game is not so great as it used to be.
Yeah I know you all start screaming leave the game etc, well I am when subscribtion is over and no you can not have my stuff.
We pay for this game but we have no saying in what we want changed and all.
CCP f***ed up industry big time imo.
there is loads more but I am not really going to bother with that
Enjoy the game, fly safe |
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Shadow of xXDEATHXx
185
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 12:44:06 -
[727] - Quote
kleinduimpie wrote:It is all nice to rebalance but what about the high sec manufactors, they being screwed as there is no megacyte and zydrine in high sec they have to be independed from market and that just rised about double the isk
You guys might all be great with this but really i think with all this rebalacing the game is not so great as it used to be.
Yeah I know you all start screaming leave the game etc, well I am when subscribtion is over and no you can not have my stuff.
We pay for this game but we have no saying in what we want changed and all.
CCP f***ed up industry big time imo.
there is loads more but I am not really going to bother with that
Enjoy the game, fly safe
about bloody time ccp fixed highsec manufacturing. taken them long enough
Good Job on this one ccp |
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3221
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 13:25:16 -
[728] - Quote
kleinduimpie wrote:It is all nice to rebalance but what about the high sec manufactors, they being screwed as there is no megacyte and zydrine in high sec they have to be independed from market and that just rised about double the isk
You guys might all be great with this but really i think with all this rebalacing the game is not so great as it used to be.
Yeah I know you all start screaming leave the game etc, well I am when subscribtion is over and no you can not have my stuff.
We pay for this game but we have no saying in what we want changed and all.
CCP f***ed up industry big time imo.
there is loads more but I am not really going to bother with that
Enjoy the game, fly safe
Or you could raise your prices to account for the increased manufacturing costs.
Post on the Eve-o forums with a Goonswarm Federation character that drinking bleach is bad for you, and 20 forum warriors will hospitalise themselves trying to prove you wrong.
|
Mario Putzo
1326
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 15:53:21 -
[729] - Quote
Selaria Unbertable wrote:@CCP FozzieThe new mineral composition is fine and all, but you guys forgot to adjust the volumes of the compressed ores. Right now, the best way to compress Tritanium is Compressed Hemorphite, with a whooping compression ratio of over 1:100 (meaning 1m-¦ of compressed ore contains over 100m-¦ of minerals if refined, the intended ratio is about 1:20). Best for Pyerite? Hedbergite with around 1:70. Jaspet is still fine, but all the 0.0 ores have the same problem, their ratio is too high. If this is intended, I won't complain. Instead I'll be putting up buy orders for those in Jita next time I need larger quantities of those minerals
Likely intended as to provide benefits to Low Sec as well, since these ore type are predominantly LS sourced. |
Fzhal
Anoikis Vergence The Last Chancers.
11
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 17:55:49 -
[730] - Quote
(Dons flame-retardant gear.)
These changes seem like a step in the right direction. However, they do not change the need for miners to mine unwanted ores in anomalies to cycle them. Similarly, one of the main things about Eve's mining system has always bugged me is the lack of competition for resources because they respawn so frequently, predictably, and abundantly. If these changes do not bring back the tiered pricing of ores, I think that CCP should strongly consider changing their availability and ease of access. Really, how often do miners have to change solar systems and what percent of Eve's available roids are actually mined each day?
Mercoxit is a good example. I agree with Querns and others about removing Mercoxit almost entirely from anomalies, because of anomaly cycling. Make Mercoxit special, like NPC special... This would allow it to mostly spawn in comets... (I know... but please hear me out. I'll keep the tangent short.)
I started with the assumption that comet mining hasn't happened yet because of technical issues, like asteroids aren't coded to be mobile. NPCs are mobile, though, and can go in one direction at 1km/sec (+-). Only one thing would be needed to create a very natural-feeling mini-game, a Mercoxit-damage halo and tail. The damaging halo/tail, in combination with the existing navigation and combat mechanics, would manifest as a naturally occurring mini-game.
Benefits of comet as NPC: DScan and combat probes needed to find them (could add comet prospecting to Exploration profession) Warping to signature would put the ship 20km+ away and in the Mercoxit-damage tail (not a safe place) Large/long engine contrail (kilometers long) could be used as the comet's tail if needed Using "Keep at distance" or "Orbit" would quickly land the ship in the damaging tail (manual piloting would be required) NPC combat mechanics could be used to occasionally create massive Mercoxit-cloud eruptions at players (long lock, fire, untarget) with smartbomb effect or single-target attack with low-tracking/high-signature turret Jet-can mining would leave a string of cans to pick up
The main issues I can think of: Ore tables (back-end) would have to be connected to an NPC somehow Area of effect damage in tail Art of gaseous eruptions and tail (optional) Barges/Exhumers would need PG bonuses to equip MWD
(Sorry for the Tangent) |
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
202
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 18:42:52 -
[731] - Quote
BREAKING NEWS - Mexallon has fallen to 48.6 ISK p/u in the Forge region - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5711392#post5711392
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down Tactical Narcotics Team
77
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 18:59:58 -
[732] - Quote
Fzhal wrote:(Dons flame-retardant gear.)
Wall of text
(Sorry for the Tangent)
This is a very Solid idea on how to implement a form of active mining. I am not sure we need to change anything with barge/exhumer ships I would be more of a fan of allowing the venture/prospector to have a very solid niche to fill in here. It would also help fix the problem of cycling the belts |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2364
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 02:35:56 -
[733] - Quote
I'm literally watching my recent plagioclase investment crumble underneath me. Oops. |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
206
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 04:19:41 -
[734] - Quote
Rowells wrote:I'm literally watching my recent plagioclase investment crumble underneath me. Oops.
It's okay to cry. Tears of Joy.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1124
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 04:46:35 -
[735] - Quote
Fzhal wrote:(Dons flame-retardant gear.) These changes seem like a step in the right direction. However, they do not change the need for miners to mine unwanted ores in anomalies to cycle them. Similarly, one of the main things about Eve's mining system has always bugged me is the lack of competition for resources because they respawn so frequently, predictably, and abundantly. If these changes do not bring back the tiered pricing of ores, I think that CCP should strongly consider changing their availability and ease of access. Really, how often do miners have to change solar systems and what percent of Eve's available roids are actually mined each day? Mercoxit is a good example. I agree with Querns and others about removing Mercoxit almost entirely from anomalies, because of anomaly cycling. Make Mercoxit special, like NPC special... This would allow it to mostly spawn in comets... (I know... but please hear me out. I'll keep the tangent short.) I started with the assumption that comet mining hasn't happened yet because of technical issues, like asteroids aren't coded to be mobile. NPCs are mobile, though, and can go in one direction at 1km/sec (+-). Only one thing would be needed to create a very natural-feeling mini-game, a Mercoxit-damage halo and tail. The damaging halo/tail, in combination with the existing navigation and combat mechanics, would manifest as a naturally occurring mini-game. Benefits of comet as NPC: - DScan and combat probes needed to find them (could add comet prospecting to Exploration profession)
- Warping to signature would put the ship 20km+ away and in the Mercoxit-damage tail (not a safe place)
- Large/long engine contrail (kilometers long) could be used as the comet's tail if needed
- Using "Keep at distance" or "Orbit" would quickly land the ship in the damaging tail (manual piloting would be required)
- NPC combat mechanics could be used to occasionally create massive Mercoxit-cloud eruptions at players (long lock, fire, untarget) with smartbomb effect or single-target attack with low-tracking/high-signature turret
- Jet-can mining would leave a string of cans to pick up
The main issues I can think of:
- Ore tables (back-end) would have to be connected to an NPC somehow
- Area of effect damage in tail
- Art of gaseous eruptions and tail (optional)
- Barges/Exhumers would need PG bonuses to equip MWD
(Sorry for the Tangent)
Better to put comet mining feedback into the specific thread for it as the ideas will most likely disappear in here. I'm all for it myself but with fast moving comets that need ventures/prospectors to keep up with. Have them give explosive outgassing leaving minable clouds that give damage if you get too close...ice shell, ore core and occasional moon goo calving...manual flying required to avoid the damaging tail and clouds of rubble...gimme gimme...
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
212
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 12:40:52 -
[736] - Quote
The Last Goodbyes for Mexallon - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5713060#post5713060
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Shadow of xXDEATHXx
187
|
Posted - 2015.05.02 01:13:07 -
[737] - Quote
I agree with a few of the comments on this
combine the roids some what. theres no need for 50 roids. give us back spodzilla
Actually I was really looking forward to a 736k unit spodzilla just for the shear size of the roid (like a large comet) and for the hilarity of people bookmarking the roid and warping to it at 0km and bouncing a few hundred km off it before stopping.
Please merge some of the roids into decent / visable roids again. |
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
79
|
Posted - 2015.05.02 13:42:48 -
[738] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:You know, I heard a rumour there are these things called static belts in Null, that have even more in them than highsec, and a mix of all the ores as well. And given there are even more null systems than high, and high has no industrial anoms.... this must mean that all the ore that null currently imports could easily just come from their static belts.
You just won't be satisfied till CCP gives you absolute perfect braindead mining in the anoms will you? It's already been just handed to you on a silver platter needing only slight balancing, now you want it on the gold platter with platinum inlay as well. Well, not exactly true. The static belts in nul have no proximity and grouping to be effectively mining efficient. In comparision, old anoms and high security static belts have higher mining efficiency, with much fewer warp-in locations required to mine the entire belt. Ores in nul static belts are sometimes spread out over vast distances; anomalies and high-sec belts are nothing like that, making them much easier to mine to completion.
|
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
79
|
Posted - 2015.05.02 14:19:12 -
[739] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Jagoff Haverford wrote:Null also overtakes high sec in having sole access to the best-performing sources of Isogen (now Dark Ochre, where it used to be Omber) Not that anyone ever mined omber, as it has, /by far/ the lowest isk/m3 of any ore. Currently 193 isk/m3, compared to the next lowest of Veld at 238 (atm. Prices have adjusted. But these are from the mineral prices, at 100% refine) As pointed out earlier, you do mine everything in anomalies if you want them to re-spawn. High sec anoms commonly had omber; since Amarr and Calcari high sec static belts had no omber, you mined it irrelevant of the isk/m3.
Hmm, so much speculation since two weeks ago... Ore --(May2015)-- isk/m3
1. Arkanor -- 460.16 2. Mercoxit -- 450.10 3. Bistot -- 382.90 4. Crokite -- 361.61 5. Hedbergite -- 261.75 6. Dark Ochre -- 249.52 7. Hemorphite -- 244.40 8. Jaspet -- 220.42 9. Scordite -- 203.41 10. Kernite -- 196.23 11. Pyroxeres -- 192.79 12. Gneiss -- 185.63 13. Plagioclase -- 181.91 14. Veldspar -- 175.38 15. Omber -- 149.35 16. Spodumain -- 123.90 |
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
80
|
Posted - 2015.05.02 15:38:12 -
[740] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:Milla Goodpussy wrote:
you want to grief the mining belts/anon's now.. so instead of blowing up ships, structures, and infrastructure.. you now propose ccp to allow you to doomsday a mining belt.. rofl
Not me personally, no. I left the cesspool that is nullsec a long time ago. Also, your analogy is pretty disingenuous since doomsdays aren't aoe and can't even target everything universally like sub caps can. Though I do like the idea of stealth bombers being able to bomb anoms. Besides, the lol factor, you haven't actually pointed out why this is a bad idea. Bombing strategic resources like mines etc in WWII made since, so why wouldn't it make since in this context? Now there is an idea. Affecting moon goo will likely hit too many pocketbooks to 'pass the Senate'.
There is no point mining nul until anoms return to being scanned with probes; there really is no safety in mining at all, but at least d-scanning while mining anoms gave you a premise of safety. End of story.
|
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
226
|
Posted - 2015.05.02 22:18:40 -
[741] - Quote
Moon materials have been what kept this conflict dynamic for most of the first dacade. One point five Trillion ISK per month potential income on Dysprosium alone will do that.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
Maradusa Macarthy
Hedion University Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2015.05.03 03:21:25 -
[742] - Quote
when it happens , it happens! |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2104
|
Posted - 2015.05.03 05:06:25 -
[743] - Quote
DetKhord Saisio wrote:]Well, not exactly true. The static belts in nul have no proximity and grouping to be effectively mining efficient. In comparision, old anoms and high security static belts have higher mining efficiency, with much fewer warp-in locations required to mine the entire belt. Ores in nul static belts are sometimes spread out over vast distances; anomalies and high-sec belts are nothing like that, making them much easier to mine to completion.
Assuming Orca boosts that don't even need to be maxed, a group of barges starting at warp in can start mining instantly and will never need to warp to find fresh targets providing they move efficiently through the belt in a pattern rather than random directions. Well, at the least most belts. I did a survey of Null belts and it was very rare that any rocks were more than 50k off the belt, and orca boosts put you up into being able to find a mid point so when rocks on one side run out you switch to the other side. If there are rocks which are very inconvenient, you simply leave them, since you don't need to mine your belts out for downtime respawn.
There is no reason high sec mining belts have a higher mining efficiency. The whole 'never touch belts' thing actually came from when Anoms were Sigs instead, so mining in a belt meant people could find you without probes, while mining in a sig was safer. Additionally those guides tend to have been written 4-5 years ago before Null massively overmined ABC's and crashed the price, so stripping the Sigs was actually significantly more valuable, and ore compression was terrible as was refining at the time. |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
228
|
Posted - 2015.05.03 08:23:30 -
[744] - Quote
If anyone wishes to compare the new per ore volumes per ore anomaly, the old ones can be found here - http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1205/Bloodtear_Industy_Index_Report_v3.pdf
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
80
|
Posted - 2015.05.04 16:40:37 -
[745] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:DetKhord Saisio wrote:]Well, not exactly true. The static belts in nul have no proximity and grouping to be effectively mining efficient. In comparision, old anoms and high security static belts have higher mining efficiency, with much fewer warp-in locations required to mine the entire belt. Ores in nul static belts are sometimes spread out over vast distances; anomalies and high-sec belts are nothing like that, making them much easier to mine to completion.
Assuming Orca boosts that don't even need to be maxed, a group of barges starting at warp in can start mining instantly and will never need to warp to find fresh targets providing they move efficiently through the belt in a pattern rather than random directions. Well, at the least most belts. I did a survey of Null belts and it was very rare that any rocks were more than 50k off the belt, and orca boosts put you up into being able to find a mid point so when rocks on one side run out you switch to the other side. If there are rocks which are very inconvenient, you simply leave them, since you don't need to mine your belts out for downtime respawn. There is no reason high sec mining belts have a higher mining efficiency. The whole 'never touch belts' thing actually came from when Anoms were Sigs instead, so mining in a belt meant people could find you without probes, while mining in a sig was safer. Additionally those guides tend to have been written 4-5 years ago before Null massively overmined ABC's and crashed the price, so stripping the Sigs was actually significantly more valuable, and ore compression was terrible as was refining at the time. Okay??? So, what if anything I stated is incorrect?
"I did a survey of Null belts and it was very rare that any rocks were more than 50k off the belt" Do you have a link to your survey data or are you just speculating? It sounds like you are trying to be rather specific.
I suppose I could clarify. In my experience (system class J5 thru J7; -0.6 or better quality systems), my limited amount of mining experience in nul taught me some of the best belts you will want to mine are spread out much too far apart from belt bookmark/warpin to apply to your comments. The rocks in those cases are as I described 'sometimes spread out over vast distances'; thus the reasoning that trying to mine those very large belts to completion can seem problematic, esp when a random npc elite frigates/cruisers spawn nearby can prevent you from warping out if you are not careful. And the fact that most of the time, a small or medium ore anomaly has spawned in your constellation or 'favorite systems' via upgrades.
|
Thanatos Harbinger
Alcoholocaust. Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2015.05.04 22:26:00 -
[746] - Quote
I would like to go out on a limb and probably disagree with most of the people here:
I hate what has been done here! It has taken the brain work out of mining, the point of EvE is it is meant to be an intellectual game and I relished the idea that the most efficient way gather minerals to make a ship was not always the most obvious way and now that you've done this you've turned it into a brainless game that can be done more easily by bots. It also annoys me how much mineral compositions of ores has actually been nerfed! For example Zydrine concentrations in Crokite at 100% were 25units per m^3, now it is less than 10 (9.375)!! Not only this but you have removed almost all of the other ores that you could get it from, making Low-Sec mining pretty much pointless seeing as you can barely get Zydrine and most definitely not Megacyte. The fact that you could get these, albeit in low concentrations in LS made it viable to mine therein whereas now if you don't hold sovereignty you might as well say "Bye-Bye" to your mining operations.
Ok, exaggerations I am still unhappy that you've taken the "guess-work" out of mining meta-game and how much you have nerfed mineral compositions of ores now too. We don't need more Tritanium in ores! We don't really need more Pyerite in Null ores, not at the cost of Zyd and Mega atleast!!
Thanatos (angrily) out, o7 |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
247
|
Posted - 2015.05.05 15:31:23 -
[747] - Quote
Thanatos Harbinger wrote:
Ok, exaggerations I am still unhappy that you've taken the "guess-work" out of mining meta-game and how much you have nerfed mineral compositions of ores now too. We don't need more Tritanium in ores! We don't really need more Pyerite in Null ores, not at the cost of Zyd and Mega atleast!!
Thanatos (angrily) out, o7
This gentleman missed the point entirely. vOv
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
|
El Durango
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
0
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 02:25:01 -
[748] - Quote
Mining in high sec is safe and easy. Mining in Null is a smaller market and risky dangerous. Nothing worse than a couple campers maroon in a crew of miners in station for an hour. You need guns in null to win. These changes seem to be to adjust the market...not affect mining mechanics or game play. It won't change much of anything. |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
264
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 03:55:10 -
[749] - Quote
El Durango wrote:Mining in high sec is safe and easy. Mining in Null is a smaller market and risky dangerous. Nothing worse than a couple campers maroon in a crew of miners in station for an hour. You need guns in null to win. These changes seem to be to adjust the market...not affect mining mechanics or game play. It won't change much of anything.
I beg to differ, the critical mass is rising - https://element-43.com/market/36/
GÇó 0.0 Deklein - YA0-XJ VII - YA0GT610,902,255144.004 hours ago GÇó 0.0 Feythabolis - NLO-3Z VI - NLO2,602,123140.003 hours agoGÇó GÇó 0.0 Catch - GJ0-OJ IV - T1,557,703140.003 hours ago GÇó 0.0 Catch - 4-07MU V - TT3,725,763140.003 hours ago GÇó 0.0 Querious - B-7DFU IV - N0GUN7,294,353143.004 hours agoGÇó GÇó 0.0 Deklein - K5F-Z2 VIII - K5D2,817,579144.004 hours ago
And even more of Pyerite.
You need 85-94 mil of Mex to build a Supercarrier, around 300 mil for a Titan, 5 mil for a Carrier, 10 mil for a Dreadnaught and under 750k units for a Battleship.
Sweet, sweet Gneiss. Sweet, Sweet Spodumain.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
|
El Durango
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
0
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 10:42:29 -
[750] - Quote
Regardless...High sec is safer. Sometimes any risk is too high, and in high the profits are easy. Miners mine, they build if they choose but many are just supply side. |
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
288
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 22:38:01 -
[751] - Quote
I'd keep my eye on the NS Buy orders instead, if you're genuinely interested - if people think they can get the volumes that they need and those orders get filled, even in part, then it can become an avalanche.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
|
Synikk
Nourwolf Corporation Fortis Et Certus
0
|
Posted - 2015.06.22 00:19:50 -
[752] - Quote
sorry if this has already been asked.... but i didnt feel like trolling through 38 pages of comments to find out... and figured here would be a good place to ask..
i occasionally use the Dedaf's industrial tool spreadsheet, does anyone know if there's a new version to incorporate these ore changes in the maths?
edit: never mind... found a page with an updated version.... thanks anyways guys |
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
81
|
Posted - 2015.08.10 00:42:23 -
[753] - Quote
Drone Plague wrote:Null mining will not be a thing until you make it possible. Currently an interceptor can be in system and in the belt/anoms in under 30 seconds. change them so that all belts/anoms need to be scanned down first.
Null mining will also not be viable until you fix the Rorqual. Currently, it is a useless capital as it not even any good for pos deployment anymore. ^^ This.
Although not just for nul, mining is in general going in a bad direction due to the change of mining signatures to anomalies. The extra effort required for all involved parties ensures they really do want access to that content for mining ore/ice, pve, or pvp.
Require scouts for pvp wanting to find miners train exploration and fit for finding those mining signatures and in-turn miners. Any miner in a signature that does not use d-scan to see probes, pay attention to the free intel of local chat, or use other methods will get caught out. But at least make it possible again to do this.
|
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
81
|
Posted - 2015.08.19 13:16:00 -
[754] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:We're very interested to hear from miners, nullsec industrialists and prospective nullsec industrialists. Let us know how you view these changes and how you would like to see them changed to better meet your needs. Thanks! I moved back to highsec over a year ago. No, I say no to mining missions, asteroid belts, and ore anoms. Invention, trade, and production keep my activity low. Give me a reason to log on to mine. Change ore anomalies back to signatures.
|
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
81
|
Posted - 2015.09.29 09:03:28 -
[755] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:We're very interested to hear from miners Bit late imho.
|
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
81
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 09:35:15 -
[756] - Quote
CCP removed the sandbox by controlling how we play.. Step back, be neutral, and let people do what they want, because ultimately if it is no longer fun, they stop playing the game. |
Ix Method
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
460
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 10:53:44 -
[757] - Quote
Are you ill?
Travelling at the speed of love.
|
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
81
|
Posted - 2015.10.10 05:03:11 -
[758] - Quote
Ix Method wrote:Are you ill? Nice obvious troll post. Get a life. No I am not ill, CCP knows of what I speak. This post was not for you, go back to your basement you troll. |
DrysonBennington
Aliastra Gallente Federation
230
|
Posted - 2015.10.10 10:24:21 -
[759] - Quote
The cure for Mercoxit and Morphite?
Make it a much needed mineral for operations in high sec so that it will become valuable.
Maybe make Morphite one of the main minerals that goes into fuel production or alloys for the new platforms such as the Mining Platform |
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 26 :: [one page] |