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Speedkermit Damo Demonic Retribution The Initiative. 432	Posted - 2015.04.30 16:41:56 - [601] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Speedkermit Damo wrote: maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources. Last time they tried this it almost broght down the entire economy. Nerfing the one or two overpowered things is much better than buffing everything else around them. They have been proved not to be over-powered, and in any case when the new structures come you will get mission agents, VFK the new Osmon... Missions in sov-null is a terrible idea Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 888	Posted - 2015.04.30 16:45:09 - [602] - Quote Speedkermit Damo wrote: Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Speedkermit Damo wrote: maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources. Last time they tried this it almost broght down the entire economy. Nerfing the one or two overpowered things is much better than buffing everything else around them. They have been proved not to be over-powered, and in any case when the new structures come you will get mission agents, VFK the new Osmon... Missions in sov-null is a terrible idea But that is what they will be getting, see G. Administration Hubs in http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/back-into-the-structure/ and what he fails to understand is that the rat bounties will be so much higher as will the LP's. Ella's Snack bar
Mario Putzo 1328	Posted - 2015.04.30 16:46:11 - [603] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: baltec1 wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: No it does not as the system will hold even if all usage index are at 0 until someone deems it worth attacking and then, when it is lost by side A, well how can you say it's worthless when side B put in the ISK and effort into conquering it? Go look up the mechanics. Space will be a pushover if the indexes are at 0, you will have no time to react to an attack. If you want to hold space you must actively live in it. You cannot live in empire space and hold sov come fozziesov. You can only lose it of someone think it's worth the effort to take over. Are you going to burn the whole universe every few weeks because you can? If not, then who will burn all those "absentee" owners over and over again until they quit? Also, they could make their ISK in null even if it was not the best ISK/hours in the game. People still run lvl 3, anoms, exploration, LVL 4 and other things even if it's not on par with WH PvE or HQ sites chain running. Who's to say some people won't find it to be at elast enough to start grinding their index even if it's not the best isk/hours in the game? We just burned delve again for no other reason than it was there. I thought it was because you were ~twisting the knife~ and ~stepping on your enemies throat~, now its just ~because it was there~. Hard to keep up with that CFC sorry, Imperium, spin cycle.
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 10848	Posted - 2015.04.30 16:48:47 - [604] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Speedkermit Damo wrote: Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Speedkermit Damo wrote: maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources. Last time they tried this it almost broght down the entire economy. Nerfing the one or two overpowered things is much better than buffing everything else around them. They have been proved not to be over-powered, and in any case when the new structures come you will get mission agents, VFK the new Osmon... Missions in sov-null is a terrible idea But that is what they will be getting, see G. Administration Hubs in http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/back-into-the-structure/ and what he fails to understand is that the rat bounties will be so much higher as will the LP's. They've said nothing of the sort, read the actual thread about the specific structures on F&I, they haven't finalized anything.
Mario Putzo 1329	Posted - 2015.04.30 16:52:57 - [605] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: They've said nothing of the sort, read the actual thread about the specific structures on F&I, they haven't finalized anything. Which means there is plenty of time, and a place for nullbears to offer their suggestion on how to improve their income streams. I would wager however you will see NPC Agents for "hire" in Sov NS space. It is really one of the only ways to make non-trusec more lucrative, without reworking the entire sec based structure in NS.
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 2284	Posted - 2015.04.30 16:55:37 - [606] - Quote Speedkermit Damo wrote: maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources. That won't do anything. Making nullsec pay out more won't make people grind for isk in highsec less. Similarly nerfing payouts in highsec won't reduce the draw of highsec pve content unless the nerfs are incredibly severe. It's not about the specific balance of payouts, it's about the danger involved. In highsec there is virtually zero threat to incursion runners from other players, the only danger comes from NPCs that despite being fairly powerful by NPC standards are dumb, predictable and only present in specific places. In low or nullsec any random passers-by can drop on your fleet and shoot you as you're forming up. You can't overcome that gigantic rift in levels of danger just by adjusting the money. You have to do something to adjust the level of safety and carebears absolutely lose their **** when you say that. It doesn't help that most suggestions of that nature are pretty dumb ideas about removing concord in sites.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 15771	Posted - 2015.04.30 16:56:28 - [607] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Speedkermit Damo wrote: maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources. Last time they tried this it almost broght down the entire economy. Nerfing the one or two overpowered things is much better than buffing everything else around them. They have been proved not to be over-powered, and in any case when the new structures come you will get mission agents, VFK the new Osmon... Where is this proof? So far the only evidence we have is that they make twice as much isk per pilot as activities in more hostile space. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Mario Putzo 1330	Posted - 2015.04.30 17:18:23 - [608] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Speedkermit Damo wrote: maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources. Last time they tried this it almost broght down the entire economy. Nerfing the one or two overpowered things is much better than buffing everything else around them. They have been proved not to be over-powered, and in any case when the new structures come you will get mission agents, VFK the new Osmon... Where is this proof? So far the only evidence we have is that they make twice as much isk per pilot as activities in more hostile space. I suggest you go post in this thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=414192&find=unread where you can offer suggestions and enter into discussion to make these ideas CCP proposed (in the OP) a reality, and scaled in a way that you think would be most fair and balanced for the NS groups that own/operate them.
Anuri Suaraj Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 7	Posted - 2015.04.30 19:02:57 - [609] - Quote Mario Putzo wrote: baltec1 wrote: Mario Putzo wrote: Not looking for an isk making guide, im asking for this source that shows BNI and others make their ISK outside of NS. You do have a source for that right? Otherwise, folks might think you are talking out your ass. The fact that null sov is mostly empty and unused. Which is 100% an issue with how NS currently works, its numerous barriers of entry, and the fact up until recently anyone trying to enter into NS (outside of renting) would be met with a Blob of **. Case in point, BL. takes QCAB CFC responds by hellcamping an empty Venal station for 2 weeks. Super engaging stuff. Why live there, when you can live in HS and day trip to LS or NS to PVP. NS is empty because Coalition gameplay has made it a super ** experience, and greatly limits the infusion of new players. Granted that mold has been broken some in recent years, Rental Empires, Phoebe changes, more and more people now entering into NS than were previously. But they are idiots right and don't count? I actually kind of have to agree with this. One of the reasons why I prefer w-space to null because it is safer to access. Wormholes, even static ones, change position which makes camping or blobing difficult. In null however, there are systems that are just bubbled to sh*t and utterly messed up with drag blobs and gangs of Legions and Lokis camping gates. I think CCP needs to introduce more wormholes into null for three-dimensional access rather than solely through those ever predictable gates. Either that or make gates more like catapults instead of passageways, meaning you get launched into some random position in the system and not just a few kilometers from the system gate.
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12853	Posted - 2015.04.30 20:25:07 - [610] - Quote Speedkermit Damo wrote: maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources. Inflation is bad. Nullsec income does need redone, but just a net buff to what's already there is not appropriate. [edit: Oh, and because income is relative, adjusting the one massively overpowered thing is a better solution by far than buffing all the others. The nail that stands up should get pounded down. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.

Vic Jefferson The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple 259	Posted - 2015.04.30 21:00:39 - [611] - Quote Vimsy Vortis wrote: Speedkermit Damo wrote: maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources. That won't do anything. Making nullsec pay out more won't make people grind for isk in highsec less. Similarly nerfing payouts in highsec won't reduce the draw of highsec pve content unless the nerfs are incredibly severe. It's not about the specific balance of payouts, it's about the danger involved. In highsec there is virtually zero threat to incursion runners from other players, the only danger comes from NPCs that despite being fairly powerful by NPC standards are dumb, predictable and only present in specific places. In low or nullsec any random passers-by can drop on your fleet and shoot you as you're forming up. You can't overcome that gigantic rift in levels of danger just by adjusting the money. You have to do something to adjust the level of safety and carebears absolutely lose their **** when you say that. It doesn't help that most suggestions of that nature are pretty dumb ideas about removing concord in sites. Maybe to some people, yes, but not to everyone. I'd be happy regularly losing ships and creating content (i.e. the actual lifeblood of the game) while earning income if the rewards were structured such that the net average income per hour after ship loss was greater than the Hi Sec equivalent. Granted, it would help if the gap between optimum fits for PvE and PvP were not so disparate, but that is unlikely to be solved any time soon. Now, arguably this may already be true for FW or WH space, but that still doesn't actually promote local activity in sov and npc null, which is what needs to be addressed here if the new sov is to actually attract and maintain a vigilant population. Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 889	Posted - 2015.04.30 21:23:40 - [612] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Speedkermit Damo wrote: Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Last time they tried this it almost broght down the entire economy. Nerfing the one or two overpowered things is much better than buffing everything else around them. They have been proved not to be over-powered, and in any case when the new structures come you will get mission agents, VFK the new Osmon... Missions in sov-null is a terrible idea But that is what they will be getting, see G. Administration Hubs in http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/back-into-the-structure/ and what he fails to understand is that the rat bounties will be so much higher as will the LP's. They've said nothing of the sort, read the actual thread about the specific structures on F&I, they haven't finalized anything. Spining like mad I see... Ella's Snack bar
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 36551	Posted - 2015.04.30 21:29:47 - [613] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Speedkermit Damo wrote: Missions in sov-null is a terrible idea But that is what they will be getting, see G. Administration Hubs in http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/back-into-the-structure/ and what he fails to understand is that the rat bounties will be so much higher as will the LP's. They've said nothing of the sort, read the actual thread about the specific structures on F&I, they haven't finalized anything. Spining like mad I see... It's not Jenn who is spining(?) here. The devblog and the thread in F&I are fairly clear. It is way to early to be quoting anything as something that will be delivered. Direct quote from the devblog: CCP Ytterbium wrote: Before we move forward, we would like to make it clear the changes listed below are ideas and highly theoretical. Those are not set in stone or fixed, we are telling our plans to you, our players, months in advance to initiate feedback and spark interest. Also please remember that concept art is just that, concept. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 889	Posted - 2015.04.30 21:41:48 - [614] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Dracvlad wrote: But that is what they will be getting, see G. Administration Hubs in http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/back-into-the-structure/ and what he fails to understand is that the rat bounties will be so much higher as will the LP's. They've said nothing of the sort, read the actual thread about the specific structures on F&I, they haven't finalized anything. Spining like mad I see... It's not Jenn who is spining(?) here. The devblog and the thread in F&I are fairly clear. It is way to early to be quoting anything as something that will be delivered. Direct quote from the devblog: CCP Ytterbium wrote: Before we move forward, we would like to make it clear the changes listed below are ideas and highly theoretical. Those are not set in stone or fixed, we are telling our plans to you, our players, months in advance to initiate feedback and spark interest. Also please remember that concept art is just that, concept. Of course you are spinning, this is what you people are playing for, when you moan that the best null sec system can support 10 people at most. This is what you people have been asking for in terms of making it worthwhile to be in 0.0 and if you can get hisec missions reduced to level 3's and Incursions removed then you win even more. Of course its not set in stone, but they have it in mind don't they. Talk about wanting the cake and eating it... Ella's Snack bar
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 36551	Posted - 2015.04.30 21:45:33 - [615] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Of course you are spinning, this is what you people are playing for, when you moan that the best null sec system can support 10 people at most. This is what you people have been asking for in terms of making it worthwhile to be in 0.0 and if you can get hisec missions reduced to level 3's and Incursions removed then you win even more. Of course its not set in stone, but they have it in mind don't they. Talk about wanting the cake and eating it... Show me where I have moaned about anything of the sort? No spin, just a direct quote. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy 686	Posted - 2015.04.30 21:56:26 - [616] - Quote Null sec never gets tired of picking on high sec. The payouts are already better in lower sec incursions for one thing.. but lets just look at other high sec activities, There is no other activity in high sec that requires 40 or so pilots to complete. It is the single most dangerous high sec PVE activity there is.. and it requires movement of a great deal of expensively fitted ships through many jumps to get to the incursions as they pop up. Ganking on incursions ships happens regularly in high sec. Ship loss in incursions happens regularly in incursions. in fact, loss happens more often than it does in lower sec. ...likely because the pilots are, in many cases, less skilled than their lower sec counter parts. I'm sorry but your nerf herding idea is a loser. - 1 -á-á- remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not-á "afk" cloaking-á- [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Vic Jefferson The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple 259	Posted - 2015.04.30 23:56:37 - [617] - Quote Barbara Nichole wrote: The payouts are already better in lower sec incursions for one thing. Yes, but this is largely countered by both the safety for one, and perhaps even more importantly, the availability and logistical ease. You can almost always get to an incursion in High, and there will almost always be one up - it is dependable, available income. Null Incursions, when they are even run, have to be in the right spot, and don't last that long due to any sane alliance wanting them down so their systems aren't cyno jammed. The moment the mothership is spotted, it is usually run at first convenience. It is not unusual for incursions to last less than a day when they hit a populated sov area. Hi Sec has a bigger pool of incursions, and the time to farm them for the full week. Imagine if you could only run incursions in say, Kor-Azor, and then only for a day...oh and during that day, you light up the constellation so every hot-dropper in the tri-region area starts hunting. Also, comparing Hi-Sec incursions to Null ones still doesn't do too much to the fact that the available, dependable income Hi-Sec incursions grant Hi-Sec makes life in elsewhere comparatively unrewarding. We could discuss the merits of Hi/Low/Null incursions versus each other, but its a different topic entirely than, should they be in Hi-Sec in their current form at all? Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
Mario Putzo 1344	Posted - 2015.05.01 04:00:20 - [618] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Speedkermit Damo wrote: maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources. Inflation is bad. Nullsec income does need redone, but just a net buff to what's already there is not appropriate. [edit: Oh, and because income is relative, adjusting the one massively overpowered thing is a better solution by far than buffing all the others. The nail that stands up should get pounded down. Inflation is not bad in EVE, it is irrelevant. 100% TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. EVE is a closed market system. Now in the real world high inflation is bad, as it devalues a nations currency, which results in less trade value (higher cost imports/less revenue exports), and ultimately impacts the consumer the hardest as prices rise. This does not happen in EVE. Why, because we all use ISK, and only ISK. We have no competitive currency, there is no trade market for currencies, there is no trade value competition. It is ISK and only ISK. If we all made 1T/minute, it would literally have 0 impact on the games economy, because the economy would just grow with the inflation. There is no negative drawback because there is no outside competition. Closed market economies are immune to inflation, and deflation.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 15782	Posted - 2015.05.01 04:18:02 - [619] - Quote Mario Putzo wrote: Inflation is not bad in EVE, it is irrelevant. 100% TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. EVE is a closed market system. Not only has the price of everything doubled but inflation means that the value of running anoms has gone down due to the way the payouts are handled. Bounty based rewards do not rise with inflation while LP based rewards do. This is why we now find level 3 missions are on par with anom ratting. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Mario Putzo 1344	Posted - 2015.05.01 04:28:22 - [620] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Mario Putzo wrote: Inflation is not bad in EVE, it is irrelevant. 100% TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. EVE is a closed market system. Not only has the price of everything doubled before we take into account mineral requirement changes but inflation means that the value of running anoms has gone down due to the way the payouts are handled. Bounty based rewards do not rise with inflation while LP based rewards do. This is why we now find level 3 missions are on par with anom ratting. The don't do anoms, or go ask CCP in that thread I linked to provide NS with a better source of LP. There is nothing stopping you from going to HS to earn better ISK, just as there is nothing stopping folks in HS from going to NS to have access to better PVP. Inflation has 0 impact on EVE as a whole...regionally...well different regions are different, diversify friend.

baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 15782	Posted - 2015.05.01 04:41:22 - [621] - Quote Mario Putzo wrote: The don't do anoms That is the primary pve activity in sov space. Glad you are finally realising the problem Mario Putzo wrote: There is nothing stopping you from going to HS to earn better ISK Thats the problem, we already are going to highsec and abandoning null. Mario Putzo wrote: Inflation has 0 impact on EVE as a whole Everything costs a lot more than it used to while peoples income via bounties has not changed. Belt ratting went from good isk to worthless. Nobody rats in belts anymore which shows that inflation does have a negative impact on the game. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Mario Putzo 1344	Posted - 2015.05.01 04:48:30 - [622] - Quote Anoms/Belt ratting are not the only sources of ISK Go run Pirate L4s and make some Dank ISK selling implants or something, you do know why BL. Calls it the Crystal Army right? . The economy is larger and more robust than it has ever been. Prices are up and Incomes are up, everyone is making more money. Inflation has had 0 net drag on EVEs economy.(because it can not, it is impossible) You can whine as much as you want about NS anoms, nobody cares really. There are numerous other ways to make ISK. I suggest you go read GSF Wiki and learn how to do them. If that means you come to HS to missions, groovy. EVE isn't fair. Or if you care that much about NS anoms, go to the thread I linked earlier and offer idea on how to make them better. Nerfing incursions isn't going to make NS Anoms any better. So Clearly that isn't what your goal is in this thread. But we all knew that anyway.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 889	Posted - 2015.05.01 07:42:01 - [623] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Mario Putzo wrote: Inflation is not bad in EVE, it is irrelevant. 100% TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. EVE is a closed market system. Not only has the price of everything doubled before we take into account mineral requirement changes but inflation means that the value of running anoms has gone down due to the way the payouts are handled. Bounty based rewards do not rise with inflation while LP based rewards do. This is why we now find level 3 missions are on par with anom ratting. Rubbish, level 3's are not anywhere near anoms even with LP, what a lie that is! Ella's Snack bar
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2099	Posted - 2015.05.01 08:14:35 - [624] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Rubbish, level 3's are not anywhere near anoms even with LP, what a lie that is! They are if you use a several billion ship in highsec blitzing only the best LP available and turning down slow missions vs a normal T2 fit in Null running not the best anoms. They aren't if you take the average lvl 3 income.
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12855	Posted - 2015.05.01 08:26:15 - [625] - Quote Mario Putzo wrote: Inflation is not bad in EVE, it is irrelevant. 100% TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. EVE is a closed market system. And you're done, thanks for playing. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 947	Posted - 2015.05.01 08:50:33 - [626] - Quote Mario Putzo wrote: Anoms/Belt ratting are not the only sources of ISK Go run Pirate L4s and make some Dank ISK selling implants or something, you do know why BL. Calls it the Crystal Army right? . The economy is larger and more robust than it has ever been. Prices are up and Incomes are up, everyone is making more money. Inflation has had 0 net drag on EVEs economy.(because it can not, it is impossible) You can whine as much as you want about NS anoms, nobody cares really. There are numerous other ways to make ISK. I suggest you go read GSF Wiki and learn how to do them. If that means you come to HS to missions, groovy. EVE isn't fair. Or if you care that much about NS anoms, go to the thread I linked earlier and offer idea on how to make them better. If I am looking for the most efficient ISK why would I go run pirate L4 missions when I can make more doing highsec incursions in complete safety? If I am looking for the most efficient ISK why would I do anything other than highsec incursions in complete safety? That really doesn't seem like a recipe for a vibrant PvP game to me.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 15786	Posted - 2015.05.01 10:49:25 - [627] - Quote Mario Putzo wrote: Anoms/Belt ratting are not the only sources of ISK Go run Pirate L4s and make some Dank ISK selling implants or something. There are no level 4s in sov null. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 15786	Posted - 2015.05.01 10:50:43 - [628] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: They are if you use a several billion ship in highsec blitzing only the best LP available and turning down slow missions vs a normal T2 fit in Null running not the best anoms. They aren't if you take the average lvl 3 income. 800 mil, which is more than half the cost of a carrier which is needed to hit the best anom income. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Lan Wang Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly. 477	Posted - 2015.05.01 11:02:16 - [629] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Nevyn Auscent wrote: They are if you use a several billion ship in highsec blitzing only the best LP available and turning down slow missions vs a normal T2 fit in Null running not the best anoms. They aren't if you take the average lvl 3 income. 800 mil, which is more than half the cost of a carrier which is needed to hit the best anom income. my carrier was around 2.7bil and got me 90mil an hour in nullsec using 1 account in an upgraded system, ishtar was pushing around 60mil an hour EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding \| Digital Design
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 36557	Posted - 2015.05.01 11:02:23 - [630] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Rubbish, level 3's are not anywhere near anoms even with LP, what a lie that is! Did you find that quote of mine yet (see post 604)? Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari



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