Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 9 10 11 12 .. 12 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Orm Magnustat
Red Serpent Industries
37
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 14:34:14 -
[181] - Quote
CCP Surge,
I gave myself some time to digest this piece of a dev blog - it didnt really help much though
A lot of people gave a lot of very personal, detailed, constructive and (initially) friendly feedback in the Carnyx thread (as i learned a lot of similar feedback was available even earlier after the Singularity testing). The kind of empty fluff you produce in your dev-blog is just an insult to all those people... I feel really bad for those that expected something from CCP in this matter. Though you allow yourself to acknowledge, that there are "issues" and that you "could have done better", at the same time you dont feel the need to actually adress the sore points and deny them all the possible short term solutions. Instead i read a lot of narcisstic rambling about how even better everything will become (sometime).
Your icon overhaul broke the core functionality of the icons for many players - the was a ONE_GLANCE tactical overview, through the absolutely CLEAR DISTINCTION of player-ships, npc-ships, drones and celestials. As long as your new system cant offer this (and it falls horribly short on that) you should take peoples complains dead serious.
But (and here my jaw really dropped) you seem to have a totally different view of your job as a dev:
Quote: ................................. Those that managed to adapt quickly in the early days of the great Iconocalypse of 2015 certainly profited handsomely from the confusion it sowed.
But in New Eden space is merciless, and change is ever-present.
- CCP Surge
Eve indeed is a tough and merciless game - because it's one of the few/last pvp full-loot games where your fuckups really matter and may cost you dearly. But when you feel its your job as a dev to screw with players perceptions, take funtionality from them and "saw confusion" to make it a bit harder for them then I can only hope for CCP that this misconception of yours will be set straight as fast as possible.
Selling your blunder and sub par work as a "feature" is beyond stupid and just adds insult to injury for those suffering from your expansion. |
croakroach
Hunter Killers. Forsaken Asylum
7
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 14:35:21 -
[182] - Quote
Quote:A clearer system for identifying different objects in space. Intended for veterans and newbies alike to be able to better read situations and assess threat levels.
This statement is a little off; however my complaint is not with the icons, but the application of the background color of the icons for different standings and war/militia targets.
See before and after here: http://puu.sh/iuOqB/fd9fa57179.jpg
To be fair, I do have a form of color blindness in which I am unable to distinguish red from green (and purple from blue, etc). In the image on the right hand side, trying to find the red highlighted target is impossible; to me it is now invisible.
My complaint is that before the changes, I could easily pick out a red target in a sea of neutrals, which is especially important when trying to chase a target as I can see in space which direction they warp. Immediately after these changes this too became impossible for me unless I select their ship first. This means, for me, "a clearer system for identifying different objects in space" is a more convoluted system for identifying objects in space as it has become much more challenging to find them in space.
Can something be done to make this clearer again? Removing neutrals is unfortunately not an option because neutrals can often be a threat (bumping Machariel, neutral logistic, neutral scout, etc). |
croakroach
Hunter Killers. Forsaken Asylum
7
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 14:59:57 -
[183] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Colour-coding for everything on the overview would be best, but that further emphasizes the issue of the likeness of all of the chevron icons.
http://puu.sh/iuRgo/f1f1b54817.jpg
That could be interesting; it would help the color blind folks too as we can pick colors we can see. |
Cleanse Serce
Lonesome Capsuleer
40
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 15:08:59 -
[184] - Quote
Ok i made some personnal studyn and here what i came up with :
http://i.imgur.com/cqbE3T0.png?1
I must sadly admit that there're some huge un logic tiny details, that could, if modified, change the whole set-up... |
Lisa Gentilette
The Scope Gallente Federation
114
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 15:15:04 -
[185] - Quote
23 hours later, 1 developer making one comment, 1 CSM member responding he, not the CSM, is pushing for better improvements and this dev blog is already pushed of the front page.
Talk about digging in your heels. |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
561
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 15:21:28 -
[186] - Quote
croakroach wrote:GankYou wrote:Colour-coding for everything on the overview would be best, but that further emphasizes the issue of the likeness of all of the chevron icons. http://puu.sh/iuRgo/f1f1b54817.jpg That could be interesting; it would help the color blind folks too as we can pick colors we can see.
Indeed, the more systematic the "coding" is - the better.
Our brains are wired to very efficiently recognise coherent patterns - colour is one of them.
Size + colour + shape would be the bestest, however even proper overview icon sizing alone made this game function for more than 12 years, and right now we have none of the aforementioned things.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK. Gÿ+
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
|
Xola Zuni
The Tuskers The Tuskers Co.
4
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 16:05:56 -
[187] - Quote
This devblog feels like a slap to the face.
CCP Surge's found a way of being a kind of self-critical, but then patronizing and effectively ignoring the feedback from the community. I especially feel for those who gave constructive feedback to CCP and now are treated like this. This must hurt.
TLDR sum up: Pretty pragmatic solution for the icons: Do it like the new starmap, have both options available. Let the (paying!) customer decide what he prefers. Changes can be good, but if there is no need for it (=not broken), new features should be optional and only activated on demand by the player himself.
Quote:Improving playerGÇÖs situational awareness and reaction times in combat
From my experience what reduces reaction time is NOT having MORE information, it is about having LESS information. And (real) situational awareness is only gained after one knows the exact ship type (ignoring fits as one cannot tell from the icons anyways). Icons do not tell if it is a incurus or a merlin or a daredevil or a hawk. Therefore almost no situational awareness comes from icons.
The way this was handled before suited my playstyle (low-sec solo pirate) a lot more: I knew if the ship was S, M , L or XL by checking the icon. Based upon this I could easily prioritize. I want to fight small stuff? There are only medium ships on field? Warpoff. I only had to differ between a few icons to set my initial STRATEGY (avoid, engage, check for more details, etc). Only when I decided to stay (or was forced to), I proceeded to the next layer of thinking: TACTICS (range, ammo type, EWAR, etc). Then I could check for in-detail ship types etc.
This does not work with the current icons any longer. I have to differ between 17! icons (only counting ships) instead of four. I have to process over four times more data than before. Data might be more accurate but definitely takes more time for an initial reaction. And I still need to check wheter it is a Incursus, Comet, Enyo, Taranis or else. As mentioned above, situational awareness only starts now.
**********
The new icons might work out in situations where a) (initial) reaction time does NOT matter as you have more time to process information (maybe big fleets?) b) situational awareness is already (partially) given (f.e PVE -> you know what you fight)
Even though I do not participate often in such actions like a + b, I think this is a good addition for people who do. But then, there is no reason at all to screw with all the other individuals, who where happy with how it was before; and to slap them in their face. |
Cleanse Serce
Lonesome Capsuleer
41
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 16:08:54 -
[188] - Quote
Added glowing effect of the icones suggested by croakroach to help colorblindness (this is if ever CCP give player a color customization option, since they take it away from us since the UI option possibilities, i'm afraid they won't.)
http://i.imgur.com/QHvv3CK.png?1 |
Danmal
Proioxis Assault Force Exodus.
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 16:18:10 -
[189] - Quote
What annoys me about the original dev post is the underlying arrogance with which it is written.
Much of the feedback revolved around the fact that changes could have been implemented with a much gentler touch and w/o ruining the uniqueness of player and NPC craft as classes of icons. I maintain that in order to make ship classes different from each other, you increased the similarity of player ship icons to many other icons in the game, which can prevent the fast identification of ships altogether. This could actually be tested empirically. In my opinion:
Improving playerGÇÖs situational awareness and reaction times in combat - FAIL
A clearer system for identifying different objects in space. - FAIL
Unifying the iconography with the ship tree in ISIS. - DOES ANYONE CARE, BUT YOU?
Catering to several years of feedback telling us the old bracket system, separating ships only by size categories, was not as useful as it could be - TRUE, BUT MAKING IT WORSE HAS NEVER BEEN A GOOD SOLUTION
Apart from the mess that identifying player craft has become, the icons are also visually unappealing. The person who has designed these icons should take a lesson from the simple elegance with which the originals were designed, or better yet, just revert the whole system until you come up with something that is actually better than the original. |
Jessica Serrato
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 18:01:16 -
[190] - Quote
Who do you think you are telling a Dev how to do his job? It's what he us paid for.
ROFL... I couldn't help it, welcome to the complaining side. |
|
Cleanse Serce
Lonesome Capsuleer
41
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 18:15:21 -
[191] - Quote
Jessica Serrato wrote:Who do you think you are telling a Dev how to do his job? It's what he us paid for.
ROFL... I couldn't help it, welcome to the complaining side.
Well yeah, i knew someone would do it. At least i'm trying to contribute to something. :D
I have to repeat something though, i never said CCP did an awsome job and that it was good as it was. I was just responding to the non-constructive feedbacks syaing : "go back to old system, i have my habits, screw you CCP".. |
Bernard Dupont
C0NATUS Echoes of Nowhere
16
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 18:46:02 -
[192] - Quote
Please ccp stop that. Having big red points or icones in space is really ugly. Lite boxes were really better to regonized in space what ship is without using overview. I'm playing a 3D game spaceship to have 3D ships on my screen an not ugly icones. Just take an eye of what eve will look like in few months https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SqdfzQeT7s Thanks u for killing the game ! Were there not other priorities than destruct an old good and smarter concept ? Bookmarks management for example... Why didn't cpp make an option for players to play with old UI ? CPP developpers are not good enough to make that or is ccp afraid of most people will not use it ? Why ccp impose it ? Jeez, I hope one day mod ll for this game... Have u notice that numbers of players online have decrease since u begin to make deep changes on the game (more than one year now) ? |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
565
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 18:49:36 -
[193] - Quote
Relevant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_overload
Cleanse Serce wrote: I was just responding to the non-constructive feedbacks syaing : "go back to old system, i have my habits, screw you CCP"..
It is not about the habits, but rather about the cohesion of the concept in question.
One could make a bicycle with a hexa-, or a heptagon wheel, though why would one do that?
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK. Gÿ+
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
|
Ereilian
Black Scorpions Inc Fidelas Constans
120
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 19:13:52 -
[194] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:OK, a couple of things
1) yeah I am still pushing for the colourblind solution to be looked at. (as are other CSMs)
b) No, I am not pushing for a button to make it like it was
iii) Yes, drones need to look more distinct and less like other things
four) yes I am old and squint a lot at the screen, especially when tired. The yellow and white sometimes blur together, the text font always needs to be larger, the damn calculator is almost impossible to read (needs bigger numbers and spacing on each trio of digits so 10 mill is distinctive from 100 mill)
damn wandered off topic
00000101) the nice thing about CSM is that you have large fleet FC's small gang folks, high low and null represented. People who shoot PvE and PvP. We have been playing with it as well. We are still giving feedback and some of us are still listening to you.
oh one phrase did make me laugh. The idea that the art department or devs might be bored and need to be given 'make work' tasks.
honestly, I will be timing the telling of that to when some devs are sipping beers because I am evil and love watching people try to keep ale from coming out of their noses.
m
Mike, your record is pretty clear when it comes to representing the wider playerbase, you don't.
Your position on the CSM is wholly reliant on the fact that most of the community realizes that the CSM is just another wing of the CCP marketing dept. It has not been relevant since CCP neutered it post Incarna.
I am sure your besties will get a good laugh out of it, thank you for confirming that you are basically an unpaid CCP employee.
|
SamuraiJack
Tritanium Industries and Technology Backseat Promises
129
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 19:14:26 -
[195] - Quote
Did you break other crap in game with the overview too CCP?
Turning off brackets used to remove objects icons NOT on your overview from space. It now no longer does this. I've tried with show all icons both on and off. Same result.
You cant see a fracking THING in niarja atm with all the goon ganking. Concord everywhere.
SJ's Chronicles - http://www.fanfiction.net/u/2103579/CLS-SamuraiJack
|
Louanne Barros
Hole Violence Whole Squid
85
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 19:18:53 -
[196] - Quote
I wonder if CCP has considered occasionally improving the game, instead of just changing it. |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
565
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 19:24:49 -
[197] - Quote
SamuraiJack wrote: You cant see a fracking THING in niarja atm with all the goon ganking. Concord everywhere.
http://i.imgur.com/1JyOZCP.jpg
I don't see myself returning to PvP in EVE until the issue of the triangles w/ chevrons is resolved.
The only icons that work are the Shuttles & the Rookie ships - that's it.
Disclosure: I play on a 17'' notebook at 1920x1080 resolution and 100% UI scaling.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK. Gÿ+
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
|
SamuraiJack
Tritanium Industries and Technology Backseat Promises
130
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 19:29:22 -
[198] - Quote
GankYou wrote:SamuraiJack wrote: You cant see a fracking THING in niarja atm with all the goon ganking. Concord everywhere.
http://i.imgur.com/TYXoYah.jpg I don't see myself returning to PvP in EVE until the issue of the triangles w/ chevrons is resolved. The only icons that work are the Shuttles & the Rookie ships - that's it. Disclosure: I play on a 17'' notebook at 1920x1080 resolution and 100% UI scaling.
So in short. Yes they did break it.
SJ's Chronicles - http://www.fanfiction.net/u/2103579/CLS-SamuraiJack
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
565
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 19:32:30 -
[199] - Quote
SamuraiJack wrote:GankYou wrote:SamuraiJack wrote: You cant see a fracking THING in niarja atm with all the goon ganking. Concord everywhere.
http://i.imgur.com/TYXoYah.jpg I don't see myself returning to PvP in EVE until the issue of the triangles w/ chevrons is resolved. The only icons that work are the Shuttles & the Rookie ships - that's it. Disclosure: I play on a 17'' notebook at 1920x1080 resolution and 100% UI scaling. So in short. Yes they did break it.
The whole underlying problem is that they went to do all ze icons at the same time - should've started with player spaceships before touching anything else.
I also have no idea why icons for objects like the planets, moons, the sun, containers and wrecks were changed in the first place.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK. Gÿ+
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
|
MaverickScot
Unidentified Flying Saucer
67
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 19:36:15 -
[200] - Quote
Steijn wrote:MaverickScot wrote:Having read BRACKET ICON MADNESS - FEEDBACK ON THE NEW OVERVIEW BRACKETS" I do not see anything relating to feed back about having an option go roll back. There is plenty about new icons and changes to the future icons to improve them but a lot of feed back I read was negative and related to having the option of old or new. Do you intend to offer feed back to those people too? Even a simple we are not going back would do.
I still don't like the new icons.
Mav. CCP Claymore wrote:Quote: are you going to reinstate the old icons, even if only as a temporary measure?
The simple answer at the moment is no. Without going into too much detail as the blog will cover it, we have ideas to simplify the current system from the feedback on this thread and discussions from the CSM. i asked in the issues thread and got the above in reply.
Cheers. |
|
Ida Aurlien
Cerberus Federation Industrial Division Gentlemen's.Parlor
46
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 19:42:52 -
[201] - Quote
LOL .You can really see the ccp "Decoy's" on the boards now... they are the ones trying to change the smell of them... |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
566
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 19:47:32 -
[202] - Quote
Another major issue is no differentiation by weapons systems - the old varying in size icons gave hints straight away what you'd be dealing with.
This would also function in the same manner http://i.imgur.com/RYBmrkG.png / http://i.imgur.com/0XNw6FC.png
Can't confuse a small turret/LM frigates with cruisers here, and of course cruisers can sport RLMLs, so a down triangle can spell both an easy kill & trouble for frigates.
The rhombus = Large turrets/missiles plus Heavy neuts of course.
In an engagement, the information is best read from the left to right - Icon, followed by type & velocity, unless of course the enemy sports a uniform fleet that you have the intel on in advance.
The underlying feature is CONTRAST.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK. Gÿ+
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
|
Alexis Nightwish
250
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 20:05:00 -
[203] - Quote
Dev Blog wrote: Add icons to overview customization
WeGÇÖve heard the most benefit from the new icons was gained by those with properly managed overview setups. WeGÇÖre looking to add an icon column to the customization window, to make it super simple to understand which items you want the tab to display and how. This will also double as an in-client legend and visual guide to learning the new icons faster.
Can you please elaborate on this?
CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge
EVE Online's "I win!" Button
Fixing bombs, not the bombers
|
Orm Magnustat
Red Serpent Industries
45
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 20:11:21 -
[204] - Quote
GankYou wrote: .................................. The whole underlying problem is that they went to do all ze icons at the same time - should've started with player spaceships before touching anything else.
I also have no idea why icons for objects like the planets, moons, the sun, containers and wrecks were changed in the first place. ........................
Thats actually the core of this whole debacle...... If there was a need for it (that i personally never felt or heard of) the old iconset could have been easily polished to give the desired "additonal information" without loosing any of its grown functionality.
But ofc its much cooler (and personally more satisfying) to reinvent the wheel ..... ok, in this case it doesnt roll anymore for some of the vehicles, but anyways the job is much more profound!
Imagine your boss asks you what you have done for the past 6 weeks: A. " I completed a whole new icon set of 200+ icons, held endless focus groups for it and tons of meetings with the art department! It took us around 300 man hours!" B. " I added a very little dot in the middle of the otherwise unchanged frigate icon to distinguish destroyers. Took us 15 minutes, including the testing."
Case A gets the coolness points and the promotion for activism. Case B gets a working solution without any friction with the existing system and playerbase, but no coolness points.
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
567
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 20:15:29 -
[205] - Quote
This is a very bad situation indeed, and overview is not the Neocom, which can be ignored most of the time.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK. Gÿ+
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
|
Louanne Barros
Hole Violence Whole Squid
88
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 20:27:04 -
[206] - Quote
Can we have more than five overview tabs now? Please?
I maintain my own overview pack, and I'm not scared of geometric shapes. |
Mara Kell
Herrscher der Zeit Test Alliance Please Ignore
66
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 20:44:29 -
[207] - Quote
I have kept myself out of the 90 page feedback thread for the icons because i allready learned in the UI discussion that constructive feedback is totally useless when something is planned and set for introduction.
However i feel personally insulted by this devblog.
Do you REALLY think that by better explaining the icons to us they will get more usefull? We (at least my and my corpmates) are not stupid little kids that can be dazzeled by some nice words...
And regarding your finishing sentence:
Quote:But in New Eden space is merciless, and change is ever-present.
Is it possible that you are mixing the development of your game client and your game content here? The sandbox is not the development of the game client but the game itself... Or do you consider the contact with us, your paying customers some kind of game? After all that would explain some developments in the younger past.
In all seriousness regarding the icon change: If you dont plan on actually involving us players on feature development then please DONT pretend to do so by posting nice devblogs in the test server forum... ok? |
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
3662
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 20:53:28 -
[208] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:(...)
four) yes I am old and squint a lot at the screen, especially when tired. The yellow and white sometimes blur together, the text font always needs to be larger, the damn calculator is almost impossible to read (needs bigger numbers and spacing on each trio of digits so 10 mill is distinctive from 100 mill)
(...)
I'm not old but my eyes are a wreck. I already had issues telling faint yellow from faint gray, and now those isues are same or a bit worst since they've become tiny faint yellow vs tiny faint white. Certainly there is no improvement for me in the new UI, but so far It also hasn't hit my gameplay since asteroids are mostly harmless.
Overall I feel that the new icons are a solution without a problem, whereas the real issues are not fixed and some new have abound.
"Change" is obvious, "improvement" is moot.
73% of EVE characters stay in high security space. 62% of EVE subscribers barely PvP. 40% of all new accounts just "level up their Ravens". Probably that's why PvE content in EVE Online is sub-par and CCP is head over heels for PvP...
|
Shuckstar
Tax Haters Evaders Corp
303
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 20:57:24 -
[209] - Quote
Cleanse Serce wrote:I can't understand how hatefull you are for a simple change of icon set. Did you lose your brain for you to not be able to adapt and change your habits ? Seriously guys, this is pathetic. I'm sad to be part of such a community that just sit on their static quirks.
Dev alt spotted
CCP Greyscale wrote:"OK, I've read every post up to page 200, and we're getting to a point in this thread where there's not a lot of new concerns or suggestions being brought up. There will be future threads (and future blogs) as we tune details, but for now I want to thank you for all of your constructive input, and wish you a good weekend :)"
|
Cleanse Serce
Lonesome Capsuleer
42
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 22:09:01 -
[210] - Quote
Shuckstar wrote:Cleanse Serce wrote:I can't understand how hatefull you are for a simple change of icon set. Did you lose your brain for you to not be able to adapt and change your habits ? Seriously guys, this is pathetic. I'm sad to be part of such a community that just sit on their static quirks. Dev alt spotted
I wish i were. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 9 10 11 12 .. 12 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |