Quote:

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About the lag, etc caused by the Intanjumps bookmarks, why not simple deleting them from say 30km arround starbases and gates and not letting make new ones ? That would keep the rush and kill that lag problem.

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Quote:

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I was never a pirate in EVE (but lost more tham a ship to them) and dont intent on becoming one but anyway tell a newb how can a Honest Pirate this days catch his Fat Merchant ? :)

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Originally by: Hussain

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I did some PVP and I do recall as some of the most enjoyable experiences in EVE 3 things : blockade running in low sec systems while keeping an eye for any pirate (even if it only an imagined threat)

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Originally by: James Lyrus

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It gets brought up repeatedly, because warp to zero is a negative part of EVE gameplay. There's all these people frothing about how great it is.

Here's the problem though. If you were to release a module that was a 1 shot kill, I win button, lots of people would say it was great. I mean, missions get easy, and ratting is really fast, and you can do it in an indy for loot grabbing.

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Originally by: Crumplecorn

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As usual people think slow ships should be slow due to being forced out of warp at a distance to the target rather than actually being slow.

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Warp to 0 is fantastic and good for Eve. It changes nothing compared to having loads of instas. And if you think people would stay with Eve if they had to slowboat to every gate in 0.0 and low sec... think again. It would be like if WoW didnt have mounts, and you would have to walk across the entire map to get somewhere. You think that would be fun for players? No you dont. :)

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Originally by: Varis

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instas were bad for more reasons that just DB lag.

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Originally by: elbenito

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The problem with large fleet engagements is that the hamsters stop to watch.

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Meh. Your arguments are wrong. People were happy about Warp to 0 because they didnt have to copy bookmarks and lag down the server. We were happy because now we could travel like we always do without causing database lag.

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Warp to 0 is fantastic and good for Eve. It changes nothing compared to having loads of instas. And if you think people would stay with Eve if they had to slowboat to every gate in 0.0 and low sec... think again. It would be like if WoW didnt have mounts, and you would have to walk across the entire map to get somewhere. You think that would be fun for players? No you dont. :)

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Originally by: Taurequis

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It just changes the fact your not going to be able to gank that 1 noob every couple of hours who gets to your gatecamp (which you forgot to bubble) without instas. Big deal.

Buy a bubble. They are on the market now.

Taur

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Originally by: Gefex

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Because then people would make bookmarks 50km away and then 'Warp to 50'...

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Originally by: Taurequis

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It just changes the fact your not going to be able to gank that 1 noob every couple of hours who gets to your gatecamp (which you forgot to bubble) without instas. Big deal.

Buy a bubble. They are on the market now.
Taur

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Originally by: Wild Rho

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His arguments aren't wrong. If people were THAT worried that their bms were causing server problems they wouldn't make them.
People are happy with warp to zero becuase it makes all travel anywhere safer and easier without having to make/purchase or otherwise acquire the bms before hand.
They key word here is convenience.

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Originally by: Wild Rho

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Instas change everything. They completely ignore the balance issues of travel capacity over travel speed.

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Originally by: Wild Rho

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A ship fitted for speed doesn't slow boat, it can cover the distance to the gate very quickly and be away. If the pilots smart and used scouts, intel or even his scanner before hand, gate camps do not become a major issue.

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Originally by: Wild Rho

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Warp to zero is popular becuase it removes the risk and need for alot of effort when traveling (in high, low or 0.0 space).
It makes a players life easier so yes they will like it, that doesn't mean it makes the game better.

I'll recognise why it was brought and I'll use it since I'm not gonna handicap myself but I don't agree with it and wouldn't miss it.

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Well, I cant speak for everyone, but it was very easy for me to go to the forum channel and find a bookmark seller that sold regions for 30 mill each. And people will always look to their own good in the game before looking to the good for the database. Now with Warp to 0, we get both.

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Yes, instas change everything compared to not having instas, but Warp to 0 change nothing compare to instas. People already had loads of instas, so for them nothing changes.

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Yes, but people cant fit for speed when they are trying to find someone to fight. What are they going to do when they find someone - tell them to hold on while they dock and refit for combat?

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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So I would even go as far to say that Warp to 0 levels the playing field for everybody.

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Originally by: Wild Rho

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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So I would even go as far to say that Warp to 0 levels the playing field for everybody.

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Ah HA! Getting rid of instas would ALSO level the playing field, just in a different way

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Quote:

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And if they took away warp to 0km and no insta, who the **** would bother moving 20 freighters 60+ jumps through 0.0

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Originally by: Miya Kurosawa

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Why can't people just accept this? This change has been implemented and it's here to stay, but not to the point that it's unfair. As already mentioned, there have been improvements to warp bubbles and reduction in warp stab capability to compensate for interdiction scenarios.

That being said, why can't people just adapt and be men for once? Hell, if you spent as much time making the proper set-ups for your ships as you did whining in the forums, you'd probably be learning to live with Warp to 0 right now.

Enough said.

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Originally by: James Lyrus

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It gets brought up repeatedly, because warp to zero is a negative part of EVE gameplay. There's all these people frothing about how great it is.

Here's the problem though. If you were to release a module that was a 1 shot kill, I win button, lots of people would say it was great. I mean, missions get easy, and ratting is really fast, and you can do it in an indy for loot grabbing.

EVE is a good game because it is _NOT_ easy. PvP is more fun than PvE, because there's actual risk involved, and the 'opponent' is (sometimes) smart, where NPCs ... well never can be really.

I am not a pirate. To my knowledge I've only ever lost sec status once, and that was opening up on a -4.8 sec person in lowsec.

I have also flown a Badger Mk II, 10 jumps into querious, regularly, to run a POS chain. It's really no that bad. In fact, it's actually quite fun. The only reason I stopped and started using instas is because 'everyone else' was using this crutch, and pretty much destroying my profit margins by running fully expanded iterons back and forth.

Slow ships should be slow. I would like to see a situation where a cruiser is chosen for combat over a battleship, because it has mobility where the BS has firepower.

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Originally by: Kaylana Syi

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Shut the heck up man...

Warp to 0 is the easiest, most efficient way to destroy a worthelss isk and time sink ( selling and creation of bms ) that harms the quality of life.

EVE isn't about a gank being around ever friggin gate. There is a lot of empty space that should be flourishing. Warp to 0 is a step in the right direction to getting these areas flourishing faster. It makes the game much more accessible to newer players. New players don't have to LEARN shoddy game mechanics ( instas ) that creates lag just to move around.

If you got issues with it then you are obviously not looking at the new game mechanics to combat this new feature, like mobile large bubbles. If you are crying about how low sec gate piracy is getting hurt, then I kindly point you into the direction of the scanner... and low sec mission runners. There the piwats might actually be just that... piwats... and not 2mil SP raven gate campers to exploit ship stats, like slow aligning industrials and crap sentry damage.

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Originally by: Miya Kurosawa

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Why can't people just accept this? This change has been implemented and it's here to stay, but not to the point that it's unfair. As already mentioned, there have been improvements to warp bubbles and reduction in warp stab capability to compensate for interdiction scenarios.

That being said, why can't people just adapt and be men for once? Hell, if you spent as much time making the proper set-ups for your ships as you did whining in the forums, you'd probably be learning to live with Warp to 0 right now.

Enough said.

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Originally by: death2nite

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as has been mentioned 100 times in the past if you are unhappy with the way the game mechanics work you have 2 choices, adapt or quit. !

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Originally by: Hussain

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I was never a pirate in EVE (but lost more tham a ship to them) and dont intent on becoming one but anyway tell a newb how can a Honest Pirate this days catch his Fat Merchant ? :)

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Originally by: James Lyrus

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It gets brought up repeatedly, because warp to zero is a negative part of EVE gameplay.

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Quote:

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Think of the big picture people. Warp to 0 dents pvp somewhat. No one is arguing with that. Warp to 15 could have dangerously paralysed the Eve economy.

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Originally by: Tiuwaz

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for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons

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Originally by: Wild Rho

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Edited by: Wild Rho on 30/11/2006 10:25:12
Oh and people wouldn't quit, well some would but that happens after any major change to some degree or another.
Claiming everyone will quit is nothing more than a scare tactic with no proof.

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Originally by: Sable Schroedinger

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Quote:

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Think of the big picture people. Warp to 0 dents pvp somewhat. No one is arguing with that. Warp to 15 could have dangerously paralysed the Eve economy.

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its the big picture we're thinking about. Economies *require* travel times to function and create markets, therefore removing it harms the economy drastically.

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Originally by: LC Sulla

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Originally by: Sable Schroedinger

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Quote:

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Think of the big picture people. Warp to 0 dents pvp somewhat. No one is arguing with that. Warp to 15 could have dangerously paralysed the Eve economy.

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its the big picture we're thinking about. Economies *require* travel times to function and create markets, therefore removing it harms the economy drastically.

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Wealth has increased in the world today as a result of decreased travel times. Currencies and stocks are traded in todays marketplace virtually at the click of a button. If you increase tavel times AND increase the risk involved you will get a fragmentation of the marketplace in EVE. This would lead to inflation within EVE. If you want localised economies then be prepared for serious decreases to your wealth and serious increases to the time needed to make the ISK to buy your next pvp ship. If there is less overall travel then pvp'ers are going to be very bored indeed.

In the real world today companies are looking to decrease travel times and costs for movement of their goods. Not the other way around. Are you really advocating that the Eve economy should move counter to standard economic beliefs and practices.

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Originally by: LC Sulla

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Wealth has increased in the world today as a result of decreased travel times. Currencies and stocks are traded in todays marketplace virtually at the click of a button. If you increase tavel times AND increase the risk involved you will get a fragmentation of the marketplace in EVE. This would lead to inflation within EVE. If you want localised economies then be prepared for serious decreases to your wealth and serious increases to the time needed to make the ISK to buy your next pvp ship. If there is less overall travel then pvp'ers are going to be very bored indeed.

In the real world today companies are looking to decrease travel times and costs for movement of their goods. Not the other way around. Are you really advocating that the Eve economy should move counter to standard economic beliefs and practices. Increasing risk and travel times of good destroys new markets not creates them. Where did you learn economics?

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Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte

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in the real world today companies dismiss thousands of workers to outsource their production in low-wage countries. in europe milk from germany gets transfered to italy to make cheese that is sold again in germany. in africa fruits and vegetables from spain are cheaper than from regional farmers. it's cheaper to import soya from brazil to austria to fatten pigs, than using regional cereals.

all that thanks to cheap and fast travel.

it's a great world ain't it?

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Quote:

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A traffic jam at your out of town shopping centre (extremely common place and featured into the planning permission of building these things) is not likely to crash your country, but it may just bring down TQ.

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Originally by: Wild Rho

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EDIT: typo goblins struck again.

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Originally by: Hussain

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Hi,

(RANT)

Thanks,

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Originally by: Iyanah

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well, hussain, you claim to have been here since beta, so you know everyone has instas anyway, so everyone could effectively warp to 0, but they were causing lag.

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Originally by: Marquan Reflex

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Originally by: Wild Rho

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EDIT: typo goblins struck again.

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hehehe okie dokie lil duckie musta had the bandana on too tight again eh?

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Originally by: Paladineguru

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WAAAa WWAAAAAAA we cant kill anything cause our brains are slow WAAAAAAAAAH

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Originally by: Waut

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Eventually everyone had instas anyway so whats the point?

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Originally by: Paladineguru

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its already in and the devs have better things to do than listen to a SMALL minority whine because they cant figure out how to camp the other side of a gate.

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Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte

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i'm not playing EVE for camping gates, i'm playing EVE for the chase and the hunt.

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Originally by: Tiree

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If you need to travel 15km to a gate everytime, 0.0 will be almost impossible to travel through. If travel time is the biggest objection then why not suggest making warp speeds dependant on mass? Frigates would be able to arrive before cruiser, cruiser before BS etc. You could make it so that using a freighter between regions would be less attractive, while still keeping the ability to WTZ without the use of BM's.

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Originally by: Paladineguru

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so basically after three pages you got 2-4 people going

WAAAa WWAAAAAAA we cant kill anything cause our brains are slow WAAAAAAAAAH

the other sixty are either part of the omg ur an idiot and it changes nothing, or the suck it up and adapt crowd

its here , most wanted it, it most likely wont get changed back for lack of a better solution for all of us that doesnt include yet more must have skills or mods,

its already in and the devs have better things to do than listen to a SMALL minority whine because they cant figure out how to camp the other side of a gate.

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Originally by: Paladineguru

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Edited by: Paladineguru on 30/11/2006 15:00:56
Edited by: Paladineguru on 30/11/2006 15:00:13
Actually I did sable

and then i promptly felt better knowing that WTZ would stay forever
JUST because jericho had taken to beating this dead horse

course yall are suckers for failing side of an argument
because it provides opportunity to try to prove your some kind of intellectual giant

Remember the freespace arguement-- hows that working out since ccp put in sovereignty

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Originally by: Becham

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I wonder if this debate went on when railroads were being built about how faster travel times were going to destroy markets and make it too hard for bandits to steal from merchants and travelers.

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Originally by: Becham

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I wonder if this debate went on when railroads were being built about how faster travel times were going to destroy markets and make it too hard for bandits to steal from merchants and travelers.

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Originally by: Becham

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I wonder if this debate went on when railroads were being built about how faster travel times were going to destroy markets and make it too hard for bandits to steal from merchants and travelers.

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Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte

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Originally by: Paladineguru

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its already in and the devs have better things to do than listen to a SMALL minority whine because they cant figure out how to camp the other side of a gate.

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i can assure you - i won't have a problem to figure out how to camp the other side of the gate.

but i have a problem if "camping the other side of the gate (or better: camping a gate at all)" is the only way to enforce non-consensual PvP.

i'm not playing EVE for camping gates, i'm playing EVE for the chase and the hunt.

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Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot

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I love warp to zero.

People talk about EVE being a dangerous game, but thats not true for most of those who are against W20. Most of those who are against it were gate camping gankers. They did it in blobs and shot everything (even pods and shuttles) that came through. There was no risk for them. They only ever faught when they easily outnumbered the ones coming through.

W20 now evens that playing field. No longer do they get these easy pickings. Now they'll have to actually go out and find their prey. W20 just made the game harder for those who were getting the free ride.

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Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot

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I love warp to zero.

People talk about EVE being a dangerous game, but thats not true for most of those who are against W20. Most of those who are against it were gate camping gankers. They did it in blobs and shot everything (even pods and shuttles) that came through. There was no risk for them. They only ever faught when they easily outnumbered the ones coming through.

W20 now evens that playing field. No longer do they get these easy pickings. Now they'll have to actually go out and find their prey. W20 just made the game harder for those who were getting the free ride.

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Originally by: Karunel

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Originally by: Varis

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instas were bad for more reasons that just DB lag.

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Don't bother, people just can't understand that idea.

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Quote:

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@sable: sry - but not talking about the effects of WTZ in combat - is like not talking about the effects of WTZ in tradeing - both are parts of the game and both are effected by this game design.

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Originally by: Fren Mallow

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At least for mentioning: my post ist NOT about combat vs WTZ!!

Ok..

What do we have here:

- people who are afraid of freighters with instas for gates/stations.. hm.. I think most of those pilots allready used instas, so their point for markets, seen from a supplier point of view is useless

- influence on merchant-competition on markets for goods (pvp:trade).. hm.. I had made me instas for most of the routes.. station/gate, forth and back.. so, I don't think that there will be any damage from this side (hell, I even mapped all essence instas for station/gate and stations for selling! :D)

- tradehubs for selling/buying stuff at most cmopetitive prices with the whole pallette of items.. hm.. they're there since the first day..
A year ago Jita allready was THE hub.. can't think of anything other..
I, by myself, don't fly there anymore, because of the lagg :p

sumarizing the above:

I looked at the logg in statistics for the last days.. I bet, we'll have more than 30.000 users online within a time frame of two months on a daily basis.
What do you think do these people all got to!?

Low sec?
0.0?
sure...

You have a community with players, whoe's skills are saturating the economy.
A year before I couldn't fly a iteron, a barge and a covert ops and compete in producing, refining and trading.. but nowadays, that's not a problem.. and in a years distance I can do even more, maybe a frigher, who knows..
The point is, by time you get more people who can do a lot more things by themselfes (mostly importeant: IN EMPIRE).

This is, what drives down freelancer-competition in the high sec systems.
And by that I mean: Trade-PVP, Production-PVP, aso..

0.0 also got/has/will get this problem with the whole pos-ware-thing, don't knwo what they'll do about it..
The only place, where savety won't be at the same level ist low sec..
And for that one needs a corp and can't solo anymore that easy.

My conclusion to all this: This is a thread of solo-players, who are upset about the direction this game ist taking with no insight WHAT is causing this direction.

Cheers

PS: Saturation, crusting, reinforcing.. all that play's into this..
I allways thought, what would happen, if you only had a restricted count.. say maybee 20.000.000 .. skillpoints avaible, for putting your skills into? And by learning new skills, the least used skills would vanish?! Hm.. what do you think, would this have for an impact on the game?
I would say specialisation.. hehe.. real specialisation)
And real teamwork..

PPS: another thing about exploration, learning new things.. I think humans (at least that most of them are like that) wan't to explore and don't grind.
Eve has it's social interaction as a very strong point.. and long time motivation is achieved by better items and this social interaction. What makes me sad on this is, that somewhen I'll havn't seen all of it, but enough, so the game itself gets uninteresting.. except ccp hammers out new content on a yearly basis :D

*huh.. long post.. sorry for this ;)*

------------------------------
The above represents not the speech of my corp.

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Originally by: Nev Clavain

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If shortened travel time becomes a problem, then alterations can be made to the speed in au/second that ships are capable of in warp.

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Originally by: Sable Schroedinger

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*sighs*

because, 'dictors at gates are used to catch people coming through a gate not going through. When you jump through a gate you arrive outside of the 15km radius of the gate. Ergo, not in the 15km bubble. Therefore you need a 'dictor.

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Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2

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"why do you think it's a "good idea in the first place to walk across the entire map"?

the "oh ... i can buy this 30jumps away for 10% cheaper" mentality sucks.

btw - the argument "because BMs caused lag and people had to copy them" is not only applicable to WTZ, it's also applicable to WT10 in addition with a forced deletion of BMs and stopping the creation of new ones. ... the "success" of WTZ is based on the hope and the assumption that people will delete their instas themselves."


Since when does warp to zero allow you to walk across the entire map lol, it does nothing like that, and people with bookmarks already did it... also part of the strategy with the controlling of bookmarks is partly not just that people will delete but it will also SLOW the creation of bookmarks, which was a huge burden ongoing each day.

Look until you can provide an arguement showing how WTZ changed anything but accessibilty of BM's for eve there is nothing to discuss, because nothing has changed beyond that. Maybe they should have limited it to gates and stations who knows but the reality is WTZ does nothing that players were not already able to do with playermade BM's anyways so get over it.

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Quote:

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And if you think people would stay with Eve if they had to slowboat to every gate in 0.0 and low sec... think again. It would be like if WoW didnt have mounts, and you would have to walk across the entire map to get somewhere. You think that would be fun for players? No you dont. :)

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Originally by: Jane Spondogolo

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Wahh waah waah.

Am I the only one who's noticed all the people complaining are the 15m+ sp characters who probably have full galaxy G2G bm sets.

The bm copying nerf was patently unfair on new characters who couldnt aquire sanely the 1000's of bookmarks that all the old characters had. And this fixes it.

Use some skill folks. You could catch folks using instas, and you can catch folks using wtz. After this long in the game SURELY its not that hard right? right?

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Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2

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....


Secondly you can still warp to 15km if you want to and you liked doing so, so please save the BS about warp to 0km changing YOUR GAMEPLAY.
......

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Originally by: Hussain

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Hi,

I play EVE since the last days of BETA, but I consider myself a newb becouse I dont play a lot and there are months in which I dont even log, anyway here goes my opinion about the "Warp to 0" ability.

I know that many people have an allergy to shoot (I am assuming that everyone is allergic to be shot at...), that it is very easy and time effective to use Warp 0 and that everybody (not quite so) used tons of Instanjumps bookmarks. Look at my case I am a casual EVE player I never had more tham half a dozen Instanjumps bookmarks (no patience/time) my life is a lot easy on EVE now. So why the fuzz ?

I did some PVP and I do recall as some of the most enjoyable experiences in EVE 3 things : blockade running in low sec systems while keeping an eye for any pirate (even if it only an imagined threat), trying to block someone/being blocked in a system and run to a gate/starbase with someone hot on my tail or persuing someone.

Well in my opinion this is another case of "everybody does it/likes it so lets make it official" as I play a lot of MMORPGs I know this is a common thing to happen, problem is sometimes the game looses edge (adreneline rushes...whatever) with that kind of changes, like game in wich death is not heavialy penalized.

About the lag, etc caused by the Intanjumps bookmarks, why not simple deleting them from say 30km arround starbases and gates and not letting make new ones ? That would keep the rush and kill that lag problem.

I was never a pirate in EVE (but lost more tham a ship to them) and dont intent on becoming one but anyway tell a newb how can a Honest Pirate this days catch his Fat Merchant ? :)

Thanks,

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Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte

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Originally by: Paladineguru

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its already in and the devs have better things to do than listen to a SMALL minority whine because they cant figure out how to camp the other side of a gate.

---

i can assure you - i won't have a problem to figure out how to camp the other side of the gate.

but i have a problem if "camping the other side of the gate (or better: camping a gate at all)" is the only way to enforce non-consensual PvP.

i'm not playing EVE for camping gates, i'm playing EVE for the chase and the hunt.

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Quote:

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im wondering if those that complain the most are also those that made a good game income from selling region BM's. or if the complainers are those that just paid a fortune for them. delete all your old gate to gate and ... to station bm's there cluttering up the server. the whole reason warp to 0 was intraduced was there where alot of people asking for it, and they gave alot of valid reasons why it would be good. how come you didn't put in a reason then.

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Originally by: Baleine4Nerver

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I dont understand all the people against WTZ.. everyone had BMS.

If i was moving to a new region I would either BM it out or buy them.

Everyone does.. WTZ is brilliant for gameplay.

get your enemies on the other side.. or get a bubble, low sec gate snipers... boo hoo.

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Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2

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"i can't stand warp to 0km."


HEre is the cool part if you hate it then simply choose warp to 15 km... easy solution.

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Quote:

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how can a Honest Pirate this days catch his Fat Merchant ?

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Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2

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Sure they have you just refuse to listen.

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Quote:

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1) improves abilty to cut time traveling in eve which is slow boring and tends to keep people living at the same station

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Quote:

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2) due to ease of traveling more people are will to commute to meet people and play together, before if i had 25 jumps in my BS to meet up and play with someone else but i had only 2 hours to play forget it that was the entire time i had to play by just traveling there....

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Quote:

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3) WTZ helps to cut down on what is currently a very lame tactic which is camping gates, essentially spawn camping, it will also help mitigate the exploiting of game mechanics when people suicide ganked in high sec.

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Quote:

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4) WTZ will help server performance. Win for EVERYONE.

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Quote:

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5) WTZ speeds up travel to encourage people to try new regions, and also new security rated zones.

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Quote:

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6) WTZ removes the nonesense that was bookmark created and copying, hey if you liked doing that the cool thing is you can still make your own BM;s anyways....

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Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2

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1) improves abilty to cut time traveling in eve which is slow boring and tends to keep people living at the same station

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Quote:

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2) due to ease of traveling more people are will to commute to meet people and play together, before if i had 25 jumps in my BS to meet up and play with someone else but i had only 2 hours to play forget it that was the entire time i had to play by just traveling there....

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Quote:

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3) WTZ helps to cut down on what is currently a very lame tactic which is camping gates, essentially spawn camping, it will also help mitigate the exploiting of game mechanics when people suicide ganked in high sec.

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Quote:

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4) WTZ will help server performance. Win for EVERYONE.

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Quote:

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5) WTZ speeds up travel to encourage people to try new regions, and also new security rated zones.

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Quote:

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6) WTZ removes the nonesense that was bookmark created and copying, hey if you liked doing that the cool thing is you can still make your own BM;s anyways....

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Originally by: Jack Cromwell

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I've been playing for almost two years and the ability to warp to zero is fantastic and the only people who don't seem to like it are low sec gate camping pirates.

Its reduced the lag as people are no longer coping instas it makes it easier for us players to travel around which may well increase the number of players who make their way to low sec.

You can still gate camp even if it has become harder as your going to have concentrate on the ships who have just jumped though the gate.

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Originally by: Jane Spondogolo

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Wahh waah waah.

Am I the only one who's noticed all the people complaining are the 15m+ sp characters who probably have full galaxy G2G bm sets.

The bm copying nerf was patently unfair on new characters who couldnt aquire sanely the 1000's of bookmarks that all the old characters had. And this fixes it.

Use some skill folks. You could catch folks using instas, and you can catch folks using wtz. After this long in the game SURELY its not that hard right? right?

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Originally by: Varis

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I was just about to respond, but you beat me to it james.

there is a strong divide - those who want to just "get to the action and shoot" (who love wtz) and those who want the logistics/choices game (who hate it)

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Originally by: Thor Xian

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Okay, I'll humor you.

......... all the rest of your stuff ........

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Originally by: BurnHard

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The main reason I like it so much is I'm no longer spending half of my play-time managing bookmarks or traveling. I can log-in and DO STUFF much more efficiently. This game is now an order of magnitude less tedious.

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Originally by: Thor Xian

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It wasn't the game that caused this problem...it was how you played it.

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Originally by: BurnHard

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Originally by: Thor Xian

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It wasn't the game that caused this problem...it was how you played it.

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This is where your argument falls over. If you want people to play the game in a certain way you have to implement game mechanics that restrict the player to that extent. You may make your game less fun to play by doing so, especially when the game supports many different kinds of play-style. Overall, I would say the large majority of players prefer this new system.

Both technically and in game-play terms, for most players the debate is over; for the rest some adaptation is required. Overall, it's an improvement and players like it.

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Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte

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the question is not: how should people play this game.
the question is: should they face the consequences of their actions?

thx to WTZ the consequences got removed from the game.

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Originally by: BurnHard

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Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte

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the question is not: how should people play this game.
the question is: should they face the consequences of their actions?

thx to WTZ the consequences got removed from the game.

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The consequences of unforgiving, unbelievably tedious gameplay are the wasting of time, increasing frustration and lower subscriptions. Not only that but the consequences of the workaround (bookmarks) is much higher lag.

Now, you are free to think up some new consequences for the WTZ situation if you have the wit. To my mind warp to 7 (beta) and 15km was a sticking plaster over game-play mechanics that limited zones of interaction. It is simply a restriction that has been removed (a bit like eating prunes when you are constipated). The game is now more playable to anyone who doesn't sit at a gate 23/7.

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Originally by: BurnHard

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Originally by: Varis

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*more conjestion in "core" sytems
*less "small hubs", and more concentration of sellers in major systems - forcing even more travelling for anything
*Alliances claiming even MORE space as they can fly their fleets further, easier.
*Bigger gatecamps - as its the only way to stop insta-everything travellers.

should i go on?

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I could equally argue the opposite to the "more congestion" point, given that people tend to group manufacture, processing and distribution operartions around major hubs because otherwise it would take half a day to travel there. Human Psychology: people will always come together to trade. There is nothing you can do to stop super-hub development apart from capping the number of players allowed on any given node. This has been true of Eve pretty much from the beginning. The Hub's just move when the effort required to get to them reaches a tipping point. They don't get any smaller (see removal of highways for a good example).

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Originally by: Bill Andrex

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Levels the playing field for everyone - This is a good thing.

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Allow's players to travel around EVE which is a HUGE universe quickly

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Will encourage more co-operative gameplay, for corp mining and mission running etc - This is a VERY good thing, too many people join corps and end up running missions solo because a corp member is 30-40 minutes out from your system.

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Makes the game more playable and hence FUN and thats what its all about at the end of the day!

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Makes EVE less laggy - Woot! This is good too.

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Originally by: BurnHard

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I could equally argue the opposite to the "more congestion" point, given that people tend to group manufacture, processing and distribution operartions around major hubs because otherwise it would take half a day to travel there. Human Psychology: people will always come together to trade. There is nothing you can do to stop super-hub development apart from capping the number of players allowed on any given node. This has been true of Eve pretty much from the beginning. The Hub's just move when the effort required to get to them reaches a tipping point. They don't get any smaller (see removal of highways for a good example).

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The removal of highways did spread the market a bit, until people made instas and all went to jita...

Yes, people will make hubs - this is good. But you've got it backwards. If it takes me a day to get somewhere, I will try to go to the marketplace that is closer. If that "day" of travel is reduced to an hour, the "local" market will loose out as its just as convenient to go to the mega place.

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On your second point, alliances are generally more highly motivated than other groups of players - they will get to where they want to go regardless of WTZ. Either with sling-shot interceptors or instas. Some may also argue that this is threatening to large alliances, because small gangs can move around their space with greater ease.

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but if you make it easier, they will expand until it takes the same amount of work. If it takes X amount of co-ordination and motivation to secure 20 systems, If the travel issues becomes more efficient they can control even more.

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On your final point (and related to the alliance security paragraph above), you have not noticed the WCS nerf and an extremely large deployable bubble included in the upgrade?

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Oh god - the wcs never had any affect on bubbles - but I do like that nerf :)
As to the mega-bubbles... scary things. But totally offtopic (and impossible to use in empire where my biggest concerns are - where most of the markets are)

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Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte

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so would WT10 as long in the sphere of 100km around a gate no BMs are allowed.

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why do we need a HUGE universe then if it hasn't an impact on gameplay?

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why not join a local corp? or why not move to the corp HQ?

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only if everyone deletes ALL instas and DOES NOT buy/create "300km above the gate scoutspots" for every fricking system/gate ...

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WT10 lessens lag as well as long no BMs 100km around the gate are allowed.

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Originally by: Varis

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Yes, people will make hubs - this is good. But you've got it backwards. If it takes me a day to get somewhere, I will try to go to the marketplace that is closer. If that "day" of travel is reduced to an hour, the "local" market will loose out as its just as convenient to go to the mega place.

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Originally by: PShi Pullani

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Well, sorry if someone's already mentioned this, but after the first page, i couldn't be ****ed to go through 5 more or the same old arguements being re-gurgitated for the squillianth time. Anyway - I've been playing a few nights with warp to 0 and i've found it is not reliable. The dev's have made it so that every 5 or 6 jumps you will come out of warp at a random distance from the gate - sometimes only 4km out, but sometimes 20km out. This is somewhat bad news if that system happens to be the one with the gatecamp in it.

Probably put in so that there is still some risk to travelling. However, if you don't want to lose that valuable cargo, then, unfortunately, this just means that i carry on using my insta's to be sure. Therefore the whole idea of the warp-to-0km fix is negated, as i don't delete my insta collection and indeed carry on growing it.

Tricky, eh?

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Originally by: Hussain

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Just a quick note to the people that have no time to play EVE (take ME for an example), why not press a button and jump to sell.. heck no just press a button to do it all including refinig and heading back to HQ... no sorry better have someon press the button for you...

Time in game is GAMING time, if I dont have the time to play EVE or see a movie or whatever I dont do it thats true in everything.

My point is that faster is NOT always better and easier decisions are normally the wrong ones.

Thanks

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Originally by: Hussain

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Hi,

I play EVE since the last days of BETA, but I consider myself a newb becouse I dont play a lot and there are months in which I dont even log, anyway here goes my opinion about the "Warp to 0" ability.

I know that many people have an allergy to shoot (I am assuming that everyone is allergic to be shot at...), that it is very easy and time effective to use Warp 0 and that everybody (not quite so) used tons of Instanjumps bookmarks. Look at my case I am a casual EVE player I never had more tham half a dozen Instanjumps bookmarks (no patience/time) my life is a lot easy on EVE now. So why the fuzz ?

I did some PVP and I do recall as some of the most enjoyable experiences in EVE 3 things : blockade running in low sec systems while keeping an eye for any pirate (even if it only an imagined threat), trying to block someone/being blocked in a system and run to a gate/starbase with someone hot on my tail or persuing someone.

Well in my opinion this is another case of "everybody does it/likes it so lets make it official" as I play a lot of MMORPGs I know this is a common thing to happen, problem is sometimes the game looses edge (adreneline rushes...whatever) with that kind of changes, like game in wich death is not heavialy penalized.

About the lag, etc caused by the Intanjumps bookmarks, why not simple deleting them from say 30km arround starbases and gates and not letting make new ones ? That would keep the rush and kill that lag problem.

I was never a pirate in EVE (but lost more tham a ship to them) and dont intent on becoming one but anyway tell a newb how can a Honest Pirate this days catch his Fat Merchant ? :)

Thanks,

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Originally by: NightmareX

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After the Warp To 0km went into TQ, i don't feel that i'm getting the action / danger i want as a pirate anylonger.

But that's just me.

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Originally by: Ki An

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It's supposed to be boring, hence you don't do it.

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Originally by: Ki An

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Seen this way, EVE get's bigger (figuratively speaking) and local markets and corps really are local, i.e. they tend to stick to one or a few systems.

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Originally by: Ki An

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Warp-to-Zero is not just making combat more difficult for some (in fact it doesn't make combat more difficult for most), but it lessens the size of EVE, and buffs huge alliances claiming loads of space. This was the fact with instas as well, and I didn't much like them either.


....and CCP, will find, as I have, that the cons by far outweighs the pros in this case.

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Originally by: Varis

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ITS NOT JUST ABOUT THE FRIKEN COMBAT OR PIRATING.

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I did some PVP and I do recall as some of the most enjoyable experiences in EVE 3 things : blockade running in low sec systems while keeping an eye for any pirate (even if it only an imagined threat), trying to block someone/being blocked in a system and run to a gate/starbase with someone hot on my tail or persuing someone.

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Originally by: Ki An

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As several people already pointed out in this thread I don't think the pro-WTZ folks are really seeing our point. We (I) understand that it would be insanely boring to move 15 jumps in a slowboating BS or freighter in order to get to play with your mates. That's more or less the point we're trying to make. It's supposed to be boring, hence you don't do it.

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Seen this way, EVE get's bigger (figuratively speaking) and local markets and corps really are local, i.e. they tend to stick to one or a few systems. If you plan to operate far from home, you'll have to make the logistical effort to move your stuff there and create a base of operations. This would also lead to alliances not being able to effectively hold entire regions (or, as is the case for some, several regions), but will be pressed to hold a constellation. This means more space in 0.0 for everyone, and more fighting and diplomacy as the super-powers get smaller and their influence lessens.

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Warp-to-Zero is not just making combat more difficult for some (in fact it doesn't make combat more difficult for most), but it lessens the size of EVE, and buffs huge alliances claiming loads of space. This was the fact with instas as well, and I didn't much like them either.

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I will be using WTZ as long as it's in the game as I don't want to be left behind by all those using it.

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Don't think it will though, as the uproar would be tremendous. However, I do think it will push the game further towards the brink of destruction, as it gets easier and more boring.

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Everyone might love WTZ now, as the only thing one notices are the pros. Hopefully, those same people, and CCP, will find, as I have, that the cons by far outweighs the pros in this case.

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Originally by: JeanPierre

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Now of course, there's also the BM ordeal, which was causing EVE to have just horrible DB problems, contributing I'd wager to a lot of lag, which WTZ has now solved (once people delete their bm's, which a lot are doing I hear, myself included).

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Originally by: JeanPierre

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But, wait, "I...I hated BM's too! I hate WTZ! In fact, I hate anything which stops me from spending as much time doing nothing in the game as possible!"

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Originally by: JeanPierre

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Well, what can I say? CCP understood that BM's were here to stay as they were being used, but couldn't deal with the database issues. Rather than risk everybody throwing away their subscriptions, since the vast majority of people used BM's regularly in day to day ops to overcome the Uber Slowness factor of the game, they introduced a compromise, WTZ.

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Originally by: JeanPierre

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if your complaint is that you hated BM's and now WTZ, well, then you're simply tilting at windmills. Deal with it.

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Originally by: JeanPierre

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There are good reasons to complain and note imbalances and issues with any game. Griping because you don't like an accepted game mechanic, that the company itself not only didn't eliminate but introduced an alternate method of achieving, seems such a waste of energy.

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Originally by: JeanPierre

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Let's face it though. You guys would complain about the weather on a beautiful sunny spring day.

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Originally by: Ki An

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Originally by: JeanPierre

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Now of course, there's also the BM ordeal, which was causing EVE to have just horrible DB problems, contributing I'd wager to a lot of lag, which WTZ has now solved (once people delete their bm's, which a lot are doing I hear, myself included).

As already stated, this would be achieved with our suggestion as well, so the argument kind of fails, don't you think?

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Well true, that's right. It would solve that problem, and when the servers all get shut off because nobody is playing any longer, folks could pat themselves on the back at their good work. heh

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Not quite. I like to be able to do anything in EVE. I don't like the ability to do everything though, especially at the same time. I think the game would be a lot better if distance actually meant something. Today it's "30 jumps? Sure, I'll be there in 15".

Let me give you an example of what I want: Picture an alliance claiming space in 0.0. Today they camp the entrance(s) to their region and hold countless systems while using but a few. To be able to claim large amounts of space in the game as I picture it, you'de have to have logistics to keep up. Perhaps a POS in every critical system which is used as a forward base of operations. Then you'de have a dedicated defence force who rotates in this system, and not a bunch of people thinking "Well, I don't feel like ratting today, I'll go camp the gate".

The game swings more in the direction of organization and team-building, and away from "Insta-fun the moment I log on". I always felt this was EVE's strong-point, which set it apart from every other MMO. Logistics and organization should play a large part in EVE life for an aspiring corp. To me this is fun. I guess to a lot others it seem like working, but I think it's fun. Hence, it's what I want and what I argue for. Much like you argue for what you want.

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I think the issue of alliance territory claims is a concern, don't get me wrong. I think that could be handled by a more Lockean view of property rights being implemented rather than limiting a pre-existing game mechanic. In effect though, your suggestion about POS(s) in every system to claim sovereignty ONLY in those systems, is a good one.

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While this may be true, it really shows that CCP are afraid of sticking to their initial vision for the game. They designed it to be, as you say, "uber slow", and are now, by means of circumventing game-mechanics with the introduction of others, changing it to be "uber fast". That's what I, and many others, are questioning. We liked the original vision.

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I was here for the original version. It may sound all nostalgic now, but at the time, if we take a journey to then in our Way Back Machine, many people were absolutely miffed at the slowness of it. CCP made an executive call - speed it up some, or perish.

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We are dealing with it. You are reading about us dealing with it right now. We use it in game, and we argue against it on the forums. That's how we deal with it.

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Well, you're certainly free to do so, without a doubt. My take is, you may as well complain about Amarr ships having gold skins on them.

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I'd say that if you wine long and hard enough you get your way. WTZ proves that.

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WTZ, I think, wasn't due to whining. Not to say people didn't whine. It was due to database issues that CCP needed to solve, without alienating the vast majority of its player base. Shoot, I never whined for it, didn't even consider it an option. I'm glad it's here, but don't recall jockeying for it whatsoever.

Originally by: JeanPierre

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Let's face it though. You guys would complain about the weather on a beautiful sunny spring day.

As I am a rain-lover, yes.

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See?

Originally by: Ki An

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Not quite. I like to be able to do anything in EVE. I don't like the ability to do everything though, especially at the same time. I think the game would be a lot better if distance actually meant something. Today it's "30 jumps? Sure, I'll be there in 15".

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Originally by: Ki An

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Let me give you an example of what I want: Picture an alliance claiming space in 0.0. Today they camp the entrance(s) to their region and hold countless systems while using but a few. To be able to claim large amounts of space in the game as I picture it, you'de have to have logistics to keep up. Perhaps a POS in every critical system which is used as a forward base of operations. Then you'de have a dedicated defence force who rotates in this system, and not a bunch of people thinking "Well, I don't feel like ratting today, I'll go camp the gate".

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Originally by: Ki An

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While this may be true, it really shows that CCP are afraid of sticking to their initial vision for the game. They designed it to be, as you say, "uber slow", and are now, by means of circumventing game-mechanics with the introduction of others, changing it to be "uber fast". That's what I, and many others, are questioning. We liked the original vision.

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Originally by: JeanPierre

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stuff

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Originally by: BurnHard

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No they didn't. Their original vision for the game was without warp to 15km. It was introduced because there were no zones of interaction. No place for people to meet and get ganked. 15km was hardly game vision territory, more sticking plaster territory. Of course now we have warp bubbles, system scanning, interdiction. It's a whole different game from that perspective. The original vision was certainly not lets make the game very slow and very boring, we want as many labotomy patients to sign-up as possible.

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Originally by: Sable Schroedinger

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in order for the game world to contain everyone, it needs to be able to contain roles for them all to choose as they will. If there are just 1 or 2 hubs, the number of people that can perform roles is drastically reduced. Seriously, this is a VERY big issue and not one that is easily sumed up, and is way beyond "its better for me because I don't have to do X". This is about everyone that plays the game.

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Originally by: Sable Schroedinger

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p.s. Just as a side note, I just realised, due to WTZ, speed bonus' on indys and other slow moving/aligning ships are now purely a penalty and not a bonus!!!!

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Originally by: Ki An

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Originally by: BurnHard

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No they didn't. Their original vision for the game was without warp to 15km. It was introduced because there were no zones of interaction. No place for people to meet and get ganked. 15km was hardly game vision territory, more sticking plaster territory. Of course now we have warp bubbles, system scanning, interdiction. It's a whole different game from that perspective. The original vision was certainly not lets make the game very slow and very boring, we want as many labotomy patients to sign-up as possible.

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So now they remove those zones of interaction again? Apart from bubble-camps in 0.0 that is. That's the interaction we'll have then? Seems kind of strange reasoning to me.

/Ki

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Originally by: Sable Schroedinger
p.s. Just as a side note, I just realised, due to WTZ, speed bonus' on indys and other slow moving/aligning ships are now purely a penalty and not a bonus!!!! Laughing

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Think of it this way, travelling in warp between two points is a warp speed issue, there the efficiency of your warp engines count. Travelling under impulse/ordinary engines between two points is an impulse speed issue, there the efficiency of your normal engines counts.

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Originally by: JeanPierre

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This simply sounds like a moment of opportunity to me. If the big issue is major commerce hubs being horribly clogged, then get an alliance together (or their Empire wing) and start a hub somewhere else, and compete with the prices in the existing hub(s). The more people do this, the less congestion in just one area.

The original vision was actually warp to gate, by the way. The original vision was not "die a slow death of waiting". You still have bubbles and dictors, you can still gank when somebody comes through a gate with a competent gang, and you have the ability to actually affect the market and make a killing in the process. Very little has changed with WTZ that cannot be corrected through a natural balancing process of player interaction. It will, give it time.

Btw, good to have a forum discussion with somebody not out to call names or flame.

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Originally by: BurnHard

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You have gained opportunities for interaction - being able to catch mission runners with scanning, large bubbles, WCS nerf for instance.

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Originally by: Ki An

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Let me give you an example of what I want:

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Originally by: Ki An

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Picture an alliance claiming space in 0.0. Today they camp the entrance(s) to their region and hold countless systems while using but a few. To be able to claim large amounts of space in the game as I picture it, you'de have to have logistics to keep up. Perhaps a POS in every critical system which is used as a forward base of operations. Then you'de have a dedicated defence force who rotates in this system, and not a bunch of people thinking "Well, I don't feel like ratting today, I'll go camp the gate".

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Originally by: Ki An

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The game swings more in the direction of organization and team-building, and away from "Insta-fun the moment I log on". I always felt this was EVE's strong-point, which set it apart from every other MMO. Logistics and organization should play a large part in EVE life for an aspiring corp. To me this is fun. I guess to a lot others it seem like working, but I think it's fun. Hence, it's what I want and what I argue for. Much like you argue for what you want.

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Originally by: Sever Aldaria

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stuff

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Originally by: Ki An

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Originally by: Sever Aldaria

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stuff

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Points read and understood. I argue for my enjoyment of the game. Not for the enjoyment of people who want to experience all of EVE in 2 hours of game-play. If corps where localized to a system or two, the problems you described wouldn't exist, or at least not be as prevalent.

About it being boring claiming space, well if it's boring, don't do it.

Anyways, I see your point, and I understand I am in the minority.

/Ki

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Originally by: Sever Aldaria

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Its a bit confusing that first you say you want alliances to claim space and now you say don't claim space?

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Originally by: Ki An

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Originally by: Sever Aldaria

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Its a bit confusing that first you say you want alliances to claim space and now you say don't claim space?

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I'm saying, claim space if you want. Today it's too easy to claim vast amounts of space. Look at BoB for instance. (Disclaimer: This is not an anti-BoB post. It's an example to make a point.) They hold, what, 3-4 regions of space? 1500 players? Probably less counting the alts. I'm not saying they haven't worked for the space they hold. I'm saying that if you can hold that much space with 1500 players, something is seriously wrong. I am also saying that one of the main reasons they are able to do that is because of WTZ/Instas. Otherwise they would not have been able to field fleets to protect their territory when it's that far from their home.

What I'm saying is that WTZ/Instas have more repercussions(ehrm... sic) than mere combat, and that it affects all aspects of the game, throwing it off balance, or at least propelling it towards a style of game-play I'm not sure I enjoy. I know, I know... quit then, right? Well, I'm going to hang in there, hoping something changes. After all, I am not really personally affected by alliances holding crazy-loads of space, and there are a lot more areas of EVE that I enjoy. A problem is only a problem when you are personally affected, right?

/Ki

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Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2

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Sorry but i dislike these holier than thou nonesense reasons. Look if you want eve to be about consequences DON't use warp to zero it is THAT SIMPLE.

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Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2

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To be honest any arguement about risk is total nonesense because there are far more issues in eve that allow people to play and pvp with low to no risk. Suicide gankers in empire sit in NPC corps camping gates 100% safe even though everyone knows they are waiting to gank the next phat hauler passing by ZERO RISK, Sniping pirates in low sec almsot zero risk, hell most any pirate very low risk, people in interceptors yup you goto it almost no risk,

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Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2

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big alliances in 0.0, got the choke poitns camped and loads of friendly's all around them and empty locals providing them with VERY HIGH INCOME, nil risk carebearland.

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Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2

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How about this you grab a pair get out of that cheap unkillable inty stock up on a ship worth money that is often a sitting duck, and run some low sec missions in a BS, then come back and talk to the rest of us about risk, frankly anyone who flies inty's needs to stfu about risk because you play eve with almost ZERO risk, the rare time you do die your ship is pocket change to replace.

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Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2

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All I see is people with agenda's posting, and your agenda's are fairly transparent,

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Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2

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because we ALL KNOW people serious about eve all had bookmarks for the areas they lived in so cut the crap this is literally about farming new or casual players end of story.

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Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2

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The reality is if you just do not like the ability to warp to zero you're still free to warp to 15 good luck with that because we all know you guys never did that anyways you used BM's.

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Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2

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I said WTZ means server performance bonus for all of us, someone counters no deleting bookmarks would do that ...

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Originally by: Stitcher

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Basically, it boils down to either:

1: people are allowed to warp to 0m

2: people are not allowed to warp to 0m, but lag up the game with BMs and do it anyway.

I'm afraid your opinions are not relevant here, folks.

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Originally by: EPSILON DELTA

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Everyone who live or visit low sercuity often have bookmarks anyway, at least for anywhere pirates ever would want to camp, so warp to 0 didn't really change anything for them except lower the lag.
For 0.4, anyone who visit them often (chokepoints) would have a bookmark anyway, dont see how that change anything either.
besides, in 0.0 you can bubble anyway, rendering warp to 0 useless in the face of any basic camp already.

So in the end, the only people this change has negative effect on are sniping 0.4 pirates trying to catch a noob jumping in on a mission and have no experience checking system serucity. Boohoo, now 0.4 snipers can't gank noobs and get their killboard count++, big deal.

For everyone else its just lag improvement.

seem pros outweight the cons to me.

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Originally by: Merchantigus

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all the people starting "I h8 warp to 0!11" are on drugs.

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