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The BoB victroy over ASCN and why they might be able to kill Eve.

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Galk Gallente Autumn Tactics All the things she said	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:09:00 - [31] Edited by: Galk on 02/01/2007 23:15:02 Normaly i wouldn't care to comment, but.. Just wait for ccp to toss them the factional warfare bone, that'll grant them immortality. Edit* I just saw Darius's post after posting/ No suprises thats what they are lobbying for. ______
Xori Ruscuv Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:11:00 - [32] Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 02/01/2007 23:12:17 WTF? Everyone is saying "BOB HAS WON EVE!" How has BOB won Eve? They've won a war. Kudos to them. SO WHAT? I'm not trying to insult BOB's accomplishments here. I'm simply saying: yeah, ok BOB won a war. That war didn't determine the balance of EVE. BOB overthrew a weaker force. And? It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it? This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap...
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:12:00 - [33] Originally by: Darius Shakor All that depends on what Faction Warfare brings into the game. That will allow you to take over NPC empire space and, last dev notes I saw about this, there was talk of allowing player alliances to take npc empire space for themselves too instead of it being just for another npc empire. That is what BOB want to see. I know this because I was in a round table with a couple of BOB members at the '05 FF and they asked for that very thing to be introduced in the game. That sounds like a reasonable plan after CCP have released World of Darkness Online so everybody else can move on to that. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Tigrezz Blitz	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:12:00 - [34] Edited by: Tigrezz Blitz on 02/01/2007 23:15:55 The history will repeat itself... http://dl1.eve-files.com/media/0605/alliance_history.swf null
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:13:00 - [35] Hopefully another space MMO comes along b4 BOB totally ruins the game for everyone... Newest toy for my 63 acre sandbox Building the homestead
ollobrains Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:14:00 - [36] join privateers fun to be had by all we shoot everyone for those of u wnting endless PVP BOB find it hard in empier we dont see em much but the others we do they have a lot of assets yes but they wont get to large lest they fall apart
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:16:00 - [37] Originally by: Bawldeux IV Edited by: Bawldeux IV on 02/01/2007 23:05:57 wow, ASCN fought for over 3 months, and people still think it was a fast war. ASCN was huge, was forced to take on BoB...it lost due to deadweight and traitors...not due to the lack of trying by the pilots that fought day in and day out for 3 months....what other alliance can claim a war that long against a group of pvp'ers such as BoB....none can. Nonsense. ASCN was the theoretically strongest entity we have ever engaged in a serious war. Practically it turned out a bummer, which is at least partly due to our skill at 'total' warfare rather then the 'pistols at dawn' style that half of Eve's public seems to prefer. Anyway, they lasted ridiculously short for the amount of infrastructure and pure reserves they had lying around. PA lasted al damn lot longer, and that was without sovereignty to draw out wars artificially, with fewer numbers and a damn sight more fighting. Took us a year to win that one, and it was messier then this one by far. Anyway, yes, relative to the amount of resistance ASCN could have thrown at us this was a short war yes. But to conclude what the OP is concluding is slightly ridiculous. If T2 BPO's win wars then we should by all rights have lost this one. ISK is only one factor in a war, and it's not the most important by far, that's the real lesso from this war, not that BoB will kill all of you because of having a few tech2 bpo's. Old blog Originally by: Vriezuh Naz: John is a realist
Bawldeux IV Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:18:00 - [38] Originally by: Darius Shakor Originally by: Nathanial Victor Sometime they'll give a war and nobody will come. ~Carl Sandburg As long as their are NPC stations no one can completely control eve. There is no final victory. No complete win. Only eternal struggle towards your goals. If ppl really think BoB can take over the game, you are wacked in the head. All that depends on what Faction Warfare brings into the game. That will allow you to take over NPC empire space and, last dev notes I saw about this, there was talk of allowing player alliances to take npc empire space for themselves too instead of it being just for another npc empire. That is what BOB want to see. I know this because I was in a round table with a couple of BOB members at the '05 FF and they asked for that very thing to be introduced in the game. BoB watches alliance X take over an empire region, BoB wardecs them, wins, BoB takes over empire too, Eve = Bob, game over... Of course it was introduced to the game, BoB asked for it, so BoB got it.
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:18:00 - [39] Edited by: DarkMatter on 02/01/2007 23:19:52 Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 02/01/2007 23:12:17 WTF? Everyone is saying "BOB HAS WON EVE!" How has BOB won Eve? They've won a war. Kudos to them. SO WHAT? I'm not trying to insult BOB's accomplishments here. I'm simply saying: yeah, ok BOB won a war. That war didn't determine the balance of EVE. BOB overthrew a weaker force. And? I think with factional warfare & sov features coming in the future, it will no longer be simply winning a war, but one alliance dictating to a large portion of the EVE player base what they can and cannot do in game, will simply ruin the game... Who wants to log in and have a bunch of egotistical players tell you what you can't do? No one... We need more alliances, fighting over smaller pockets of space not a few heavyweights owning it all... CCP has it backwards as usual... Newest toy for my 63 acre sandbox Building the homestead
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:19:00 - [40] Oh and rofl @ conquerable NPC regions in empire. Those aren't going to happen, don't mistake people asking for things they should be asking for for lobbying of some sorts. CCP know full well that NPC regions are essentail within Eve, and that no single entity can ever be allowed to directly control all space, or even all 0.0. What you should be worrying about is indirect control. Old blog Originally by: Vriezuh Naz: John is a realist

Darius Shakor Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:19:00 - [41] Originally by: Galk Normaly i wouldn't care to comment, but.. Just wait for ccp to toss them the factional warfare bone, that'll grant them immortality. Well to be fair it is not just tossing BOB a bone as most alliances would like to have this ability too. It is not like BOB will be the only ones that can actually do it. And no it won't grant them imortality. Systems would have to be held by force too after all, just like 0.0. And that is if, like I said before, BOB do not get bored on their own success and fight each other for the sake of it, reducing claimed terriroty under one name substancially. Heck, imagine now if a corp like RKK just up and left BOB for whatever reason. How much BOB sov space is owned by RKK? (I don't know obviously but you get the idea.) If a corp claiming large portions of BOB space left, the large portion of BOB space leaves with it. They have to then fill it before anyone else if they want to keep it. When it boils down to that, it is a very simple overnight affair for BOB to fall from grace if this happens. Ohh and BOB I am not saying I want to see that happen btw. Much respect and all that for how you guys get the job done so well. But we all know it will happen one day. ------ Shakor Clan Information Portal http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=3
Bawldeux IV Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:20:00 - [42] Originally by: ollobrains join privateers fun to be had by all we shoot everyone for those of u wnting endless PVP BOB find it hard in empier we dont see em much but the others we do they have a lot of assets yes but they wont get to large lest they fall apart BoB has slaves to goto empire.
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:20:00 - [43] Nobody is going to beat BoB unless they are better than BoB. Sounds simple? Its not. By better I mean a lot of things: better at organisation, better at motivating people, better at targetting exactly what it is that draws and retrains dedicated fighters to the cause of the upper echelons of the alliance. What I do know is that nobody is going to beat BoB by being BoB-lite and at the moment thats practically the entire landscape of 0.0 where the corps and alliances out there use the same combat ideology and rules of engagement as BoB without the dedication, consistency and general talent to pull it off. Popular anti BoB uprising? Ain't going to happen while the people BoB are annhilating are just as bad as the big bad BoB itself. Who has any sympathy for a 0.0 alliance that gets rich shooting everyone and greedily hoarding its resources and then suddenly gets kicked around the room by the arrival of a bigger bully? Nobody thats who. But of course you are kinda missing the bigger picture. BoB is only a problem for the sort of 0.0 NBSI space-claiming imperialist alliance that nobody else likes anyhow. People playing the mobile raiding game, people fighting empire wars, running tech2 industry, doing their own thing and not staking their in-game fiscal future to a flag and barren patch of 0.0 don't have to worry about "BoB domination" in the slightest. This is a specific problem and issue for territorial imperialists coming to terms with the fact that there is actually someone out there bigger and badder than they are. Its the would-be Cyvocks of this cluster that need to face this problem and find a way of confronting it not the rank-and-file player watching the political fallout and tragedy from the sidelines in the corp and org forum. How should they even begin to deal with the now-almost unstoppable BoB 0.0 empire-eating juggernaut powerbloc? Start by realising that you don't fight a monster by being a monster, and if you want to stage a popular uprising you have to offer something to the populace. Until some series re-thinks of typical 0.0 ideology occur then nobody will care about the famous NBSI entities that go under the wheels beyond a certain sense of schadenfreude at the discomforture of little tyrants at the hands of bigger ones. But its not going happen for a while. At the moment I'm fairly convinced that 0.0 alliance leaders lack imagination and thats the thing thats killing them. Ah well, thats how evolution works (in more ways than one). Star Fraction is recruiting
Darius Shakor Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:24:00 - [44] Originally by: Rod Blaine Oh and rofl @ conquerable NPC regions in empire. Those aren't going to happen, don't mistake people asking for things they should be asking for for lobbying of some sorts. CCP know full well that NPC regions are essentail within Eve, and that no single entity can ever be allowed to directly control all space, or even all 0.0. What you should be worrying about is indirect control. Yes I don't see CCP allowing everything to be owned by any players or even another empire faction supporters. What would happen to the school systems if the likes of Ammold or Hulm were taken over by an Amarr alliance like the CVA or AM? Would everyone joining the military school or the university school end up as automatic members of AM and CVA to start the game? So no I don't see such a request by any player being granted at all. Taking over some of the regions maybe, but the core regions and systems will always remain indominable. ------ Shakor Clan Information Portal http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=3
Velsharoon Gallente Finite Horizon	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:27:00 - [45] Originally by: Reshei The BoB Victory over ASCN is yet another indication of just how poerful that alliance is. W BoB is powerful I will admit, but the victory was nothing more than an indication of how weak ascn was.
Bawldeux IV Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:28:00 - [46] Originally by: Rod Blaine Originally by: Bawldeux IV Edited by: Bawldeux IV on 02/01/2007 23:05:57 wow, ASCN fought for over 3 months, and people still think it was a fast war. ASCN was huge, was forced to take on BoB...it lost due to deadweight and traitors...not due to the lack of trying by the pilots that fought day in and day out for 3 months....what other alliance can claim a war that long against a group of pvp'ers such as BoB....none can. Nonsense. ASCN was the theoretically strongest entity we have ever engaged in a serious war. Practically it turned out a bummer, which is at least partly due to our skill at 'total' warfare rather then the 'pistols at dawn' style that half of Eve's public seems to prefer. Anyway, they lasted ridiculously short for the amount of infrastructure and pure reserves they had lying around. PA lasted al damn lot longer, and that was without sovereignty to draw out wars artificially, with fewer numbers and a damn sight more fighting. Took us a year to win that one, and it was messier then this one by far. Anyway, yes, relative to the amount of resistance ASCN could have thrown at us this was a short war yes. But to conclude what the OP is concluding is slightly ridiculous. If T2 BPO's win wars then we should by all rights have lost this one. ISK is only one factor in a war, and it's not the most important by far, that's the real lesso from this war, not that BoB will kill all of you because of having a few tech2 bpo's. Yawn, put down the spin-dr machine... BoB wins because...CCP wants it that way.
Xori Ruscuv Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:29:00 - [47] Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 02/01/2007 23:29:51 Originally by: Bawldeux IV BoB wins because...CCP wants it that way. LOL Where do you people get this crap? EVIDENCE? None. (Edited to remove analogy to real life modern political conspiracy theorists ) It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it? This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap...
Verus Potestas Caldari The I-Win Button	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:32:00 - [48] Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 02/01/2007 23:29:51 Originally by: Bawldeux IV BoB wins because...CCP wants it that way. LOL Where do you people get this crap? EVIDENCE? None. (Edited to remove analogy to real life modern political conspiracy theorists ) Don't you know? CCP are BoB alts? How could you not know that, noob --- In third-party forums we trust Did i ask for anyone to copy this into their sig? No, ****heads, its my text, not yours.
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:33:00 - [49] I\ll tell you right now what factional warfare in 2007 can amount to, give or take some eyecandy here and there. First, there's just npc corps involved, NPC corps that then get to set up pos's in low sec enemy empire systmes that are pre-identified as systems that might change sovereignty. That's it, untill like the end of 2007. You'll get some mission-type structuring for it as well as event-team set up contracts to do key stuff in key areas probably, but my bet is that it's going to come down to some of the dead low sec space being made of variable sovereignty, and having new players fight something that's supposed to amount to battles over those systems. It could still get interesting after that (meaning 2008), but only if CCP allow soveriegnty changes within empire to actually have effects that reach beyond that bit of forgotten low sec space they'll assign to it. Seeing how a tool as potentially wonderfull as the standing system that's been around since release has yet to be exapnded on a single time I'm going to assume none of the good stuff is going to happen, and that factional warfare will remian a farce for some time. Anyway, don't worry, the good people of jita are not going to be inconvenienced by CCP, not even when BoB ask for it no.. Old blog Originally by: Vriezuh Naz: John is a realist
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:33:00 - [50] Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 02/01/2007 23:29:51 Originally by: Bawldeux IV BoB wins because...CCP wants it that way. LOL Where do you people get this crap? EVIDENCE? None. (Edited to remove analogy to real life modern political conspiracy theorists ) The DEV's made EVE so they could play it. The DEV's joined/created Bob so they could rule the game they created... Even without facts to prove this, we all know this is more true than any other alliance having the most DEV's in it... Besides, rumors are fun... Newest toy for my 63 acre sandbox Building the homestead

Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:38:00 - [51] Edited by: Plutoinum on 02/01/2007 23:44:33 Edited by: Plutoinum on 02/01/2007 23:40:59 This war hasn't shown that BoB is unbeatable, it has shown that ASCN couldn't beat BoB. So it takes a force stronger and better organized than ASCN to challenge BoB. Is that impossible to form such an alliance/coalition ? No, but it involves some effort. And you have more means to defeat a strong opponent in EVE than in other games: You can ally with whoever you like, you can outnumber, you don't have to beat them in a 'fair' game with very limited rules like e.g. in sports. In EVE you can use whatever you like to win. The players have the means they need to defeat BoB. If they don't use them, they have no right to complain. /edit And like others said: Bob isn't the only superpower left in EVE and people can form new ones any time. CTD/con-loss vs. log-out. A proposal for a fix.
Bawldeux IV Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:40:00 - [52] Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 02/01/2007 23:29:51 Originally by: Bawldeux IV BoB wins because...CCP wants it that way. LOL Where do you people get this crap? EVIDENCE? None. (Edited to remove analogy to real life modern political conspiracy theorists ) you read far to much into it. CCP wants Eve=BoB (how BoB plays)so what I said is true, ccp wants it that way.
Verus Potestas Caldari The I-Win Button	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:41:00 - [53] Originally by: Bawldeux IV Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 02/01/2007 23:29:51 Originally by: Bawldeux IV BoB wins because...CCP wants it that way. LOL Where do you people get this crap? EVIDENCE? None. (Edited to remove analogy to real life modern political conspiracy theorists ) you read far to much into it. CCP wants Eve=BoB (how BoB plays)so what I said is true, ccp wants it that way. No, that is completely different to what you said. In the first situation, CCP are making the game to make BoB powerful. In the second situation, BoB are the best at the game CCP made. --- In third-party forums we trust Did i ask for anyone to copy this into their sig? No, ****heads, its my text, not yours.
Khorian Gallente Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:43:00 - [54] Originally by: Sergio Ling BoB Win War ERGO BoB Win Eve ERGO BoB Buy 51% of shares in CCP ERGO BoB introduces Elves to Eve ERGO Everyone rolls shaman Sorry, Elves can't be shamen.
Kyria Timeyu	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:44:00 - [55] You just have to look at Shadowbane to see that it is possible for a guild to just "win" the game and have nobody left to fight. On every server in Shadowbane, a year after release, there was one powerful guild that basically owned all the good places, a bunch of pet guilds that were allowed to coexist for paying taxes and weak non-pet guilds that made a living hiding their cities and hoping they wouldn't get noticed, because if they did, the big guild would just come and stomp their assets in an afternoon. Internal strife did exist, but whenever that came up, the main guild would stomp the splitters and be on their way again. And yes, that led to the death of the game because nobody pays $15 a month to farm money to build up a country only to have a bunch of losers tear it down as soon as it gets pretty enough to want it.
Bawldeux IV Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:44:00 - [56] Originally by: Plutoinum This war hasn't shown that BoB is unbeatable, it has shown that ASCN couldn't beat BoB. So it takes a force stronger and better organized than ASCN to challenge BoB. Is that impossible to form such an alliance/coalition ? No, but it involves some effort. And you have more means to defeat a strong opponent in EVE than in other games: You can ally with whoever you like, you can outnumber, you don't have to beat them in a 'fair' game with very limited rules like e.g. in sports. The players have the means they need to defeat BoB. If they don't use them, they have no right to complain. ok, you are close, but you are sooo far still...I doubt any alliance will get together and defeat BoB, ever. BoB has 3 year head start, and you can't beat the hands of time...so BoB has won the game... When BoB has all of 0.0 space, the game will be over for many. why? Because empire sucks!
Noriath	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:45:00 - [57] Originally by: Xori Ruscuv BOB will never be able to take over ALL 0.0 space. Why? - Invite only recruitment practices: They make sure every single invited member fits their standards of quality. People of such quality aren't in infinite supply, thus their troop growth MUST slow to a stop at some point. - A lot of people hate BOB: Right or wrong, agree with BOB or their opposition, one thing is undeniable... that is, a lot of people hate BOB. This means that BOB's forces WILL reach as maximum, and they MUST stop growing at some point. - Given that BOB's troop growth must slow to a stop at some point, there is a maximum quantity of space that they can safely claim and hold. The basic points are true, they don't recruit just anyone, which is ultimately the source of their PvP strength and yes, a lot of people hate them, but that doesn't mean that there is a maximum of space they can hold. That's just not how Eve works. A superalliance that has nearly unlimited funds simply isn't restricted in a major way by the ammount of space they controll right now, because they can have entire fleets stationed in every other region and jumpclone in as needed. The nature of POS warfare gives them hours to respond to first strikes, which an alliance with tons of dedicated people can do in great numbers. We've all seen that the numbers of such alliances double in 5 minuites when they are under atack. Even if you knock a POS into reinforced you're dealing with the lot of them ~36 hours later. Most likely they will know you are coming since organized spying is pretty much key to successful wars by now. POS warfare in a pure war of atrition. Dreadnaughts cost more then POS, if properly defended you can expect to loose several dreads on a single POS. Your enemy doesn't even need capitals to defend his stations properly. The only way to knock down enemy POS in relative safety is to do it when nobody else is in the system. If your access to 0.0 is restricted and the other alliances has major profits from Tech 2 BPOs the ammount of dreads they can field vs. the ammount of dreads you can field will ultimately force you to stop taking more systems, simply because you have run out of dreads. Fueling and supplying stations around the galaxy isn't as big a chore as it should be. In fact you don't even need sovreignty of systems that have no stations, sovreignty doesn't do anything for you except tell the whole of Eve where you are. A superalliance doesn't need much more then a few small towers in their systems, because if they get wind of an atack they can stock up that number to 20 deathstars over night. They still have more money then you, so in terms of POS spamming they can easily outdo you. Also when we're talking about the superalliance that wins Eve we are always talking about tech 2 BPOs, which means under the current system even if you kick them out of 0.0 you can never stop them from surging back later, since it's impossible to destroy their source of income. So what does it really boil down to? - Space is very small, even smaller with jumpclones, you atack a superalliance and they will be able to respond with everything they have, regardless of where you struck them, jumpclones make them more manuverable then you, not less. - POS warfare costs the atacker a lot more then the defender, meaning the agressor has to have a lot more money then the defender to be successful. - Holding large ammounts of space isn't expensive or hard, since you can anchor expensive defensive stations in a snap when you need them and leave them in your hangar when you don't. - Tech 2 BPOs will give them more income then you have even if they have no space left, meaning you can never really stop them from coming back. And no, BoB rule does not keep everyone out of 0.0 or kill the game completly, since BoB does allow tenant corps. If BoB took over they would be more like CONCORD then like the all powerful superalliance in my oppinion.
Galk Gallente Autumn Tactics All the things she said	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:45:00 - [58] I don't realy care to involve myself in anything alliance wise darius, it's a **** poor pot i steer well clear of. Just a statement that fits the meaning of how they exist, and how they will continue to flourish. 'tragedy from the sidelines' Nice one jade, i remember having a friendly morning conversation over coffee with an ex alliance leader who explained that one in detail to me once. Good choice of words. ______
Bawldeux IV Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:46:00 - [59] Originally by: Kyria Timeyu You just have to look at Shadowbane to see that it is possible for a guild to just "win" the game and have nobody left to fight. On every server in Shadowbane, a year after release, there was one powerful guild that basically owned all the good places, a bunch of pet guilds that were allowed to coexist for paying taxes and weak non-pet guilds that made a living hiding their cities and hoping they wouldn't get noticed, because if they did, the big guild would just come and stomp their assets in an afternoon. Internal strife did exist, but whenever that came up, the main guild would stomp the splitters and be on their way again. And yes, that led to the death of the game because nobody pays $15 a month to farm money to build up a country only to have a bunch of losers tear it down as soon as it gets pretty enough to want it. yep, tried many servers, found them all to be that way, abandoned the game...shame really, it had potential.
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:48:00 - [60] I don't think anyone is stating Bob is not the best at empire building, they are, good for them... You can't blame them for anything, they're not doing anything wrong... I think the problem is when we have Amarr, Caldari, Gallente, Minmatar & Bob... The empire building system CCP created lends itself to this outcome. Alliances can control too much space too easily. Add into that the ISK infrastructure gained from controlling space, and gobbling up the T2 BPO's, and you have a snowball effect. The Bob snowball is only going to get bigger, and all the other snowballs will melt... When that happens, EVE will truly suck... Newest toy for my 63 acre sandbox Building the homestead



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