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The BoB victroy over ASCN and why they might be able to kill Eve.

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Bawldeux IV Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:48:00 - [61] Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Bawldeux IV Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 02/01/2007 23:29:51 Originally by: Bawldeux IV BoB wins because...CCP wants it that way. LOL Where do you people get this crap? EVIDENCE? None. (Edited to remove analogy to real life modern political conspiracy theorists ) you read far to much into it. CCP wants Eve=BoB (how BoB plays)so what I said is true, ccp wants it that way. No, that is completely different to what you said. In the first situation, CCP are making the game to make BoB powerful. In the second situation, BoB are the best at the game CCP made. how you wish to 'read' things is up to you, just don't bore me with fanboi buttkissing.
Sovereign533 Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:53:00 - [62] come on, the bigger they are, the harder they fall... but do you have any idea how big ur alliance has to be to be able to capture, and maintain all the 0.0 space in eve? it's next to impossible... Second sig removed, only 1 signature graphic please - Xorus ^_^WOOHOO!!! my Sig finally got nerfed... Added pink because it was lacking - Petwraith
Shakeera	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:53:00 - [63] Bahh Way to go BOB, ASCN and any other alliance out there actually making a difference in this game. I remember the same threads about MoO when they first beat the crap out of everyone. Some Corps will get get together and give them a run for the money. If not they will get bored and disband. They all do.
Roy Batty68 Caldari	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:54:00 - [64] I've never played a game that brought out so much paranoia in people. It's like Half Baked EVE style... Don't ya'all ever get the munchies?
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.01.02 23:55:00 - [65] Edited by: Plutoinum on 02/01/2007 23:56:45 Originally by: Bawldeux IV Originally by: Plutoinum This war hasn't shown that BoB is unbeatable, it has shown that ASCN couldn't beat BoB. So it takes a force stronger and better organized than ASCN to challenge BoB. Is that impossible to form such an alliance/coalition ? No, but it involves some effort. And you have more means to defeat a strong opponent in EVE than in other games: You can ally with whoever you like, you can outnumber, you don't have to beat them in a 'fair' game with very limited rules like e.g. in sports. The players have the means they need to defeat BoB. If they don't use them, they have no right to complain. ok, you are close, but you are sooo far still...I doubt any alliance will get together and defeat BoB, ever. BoB has 3 year head start, and you can't beat the hands of time...so BoB has won the game... When BoB has all of 0.0 space, the game will be over for many. why? Because empire sucks! If BoB+XETIC had to go alone vs. RA+Goon+TCF+IMP+IAC(dunno), they would probably have a hard time. Then there are other strong anti-bob forces like the block around D2, CELES, RAT etc. who might assist maybe .... don't know the exact relations at the moment ... But you can't tell me that all those groups are totally helpless against BoB. That's just stupid ! The truth is: BoB is not such a plague for the EVE universe yet that everyone wants to unite against them. Just because you have a big problem with BoB doesn't mean that everyone has. From my perspective the development around RA+Goon is more disturbing. CTD/con-loss vs. log-out. A proposal for a fix.
Khorian Gallente Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:03:00 - [66] Well, to the OP. Why do you play this game? Don't you like the fact that YOU can do what YOU want? You don't like BoB? Go join another Alliance that is opposing them and help them out. 2007 could very well see a big war. The bigger BoB gets, the more resistance it will meet. Maybe some day some Alliances band together to face that threat. It could be the first Universe Wide War. Can the people in Empire stay uninvolved when the rest of the universe goes up in flames? Nope, UW1 would be total war, faction warfare involved and all. I think it would be too hardcore even for CCP because it would probably have some empire carebears cancel, but i think it would be fun anyway hehe. Ah well one can always hope!
Ghoest	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:05:00 - [67] Originally by: Plutoinum If BoB+friends had to go alone vs. RA+Goon+TCF+IMP+IAC(dunno), they would probably have a hard time. Then there are other strong anti-bob forces like the block around D2, CELES, RAT etc. who might assist maybe .... don't know the exact relations at the moment ... But you can't tell me that all those groups are totally helpless against BoB. That's just stupid ! The truth is: BoB is not such a plague for the EVE universe yet that everyone wants to unite against them. Just because you have a big problem with BoB doesn't mean that everyone has. From my perspective the development around RA+Goon is more disturbing. edit: wrote xetic... lol. sorry meant xelas ofc. No of those have close to the infra structure BOB has. I suspect BOB will smash the rest of the mega alliances one at a time. They wont try to control the whole place they will just destroy any one who dares look them in the eye. I consider that winning EVE. Wherever you went - here you are.
Dr Shameless Skull Soft The Sundering	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:06:00 - [68] emo ftl conflict and drama makes this game interesting. they might try to conquer the galaxy but they cant destroy an enemy who has solid out of game relationship between its pilots - being it driven by patriotism (TCF, RA) or by other somethingawful means (GS) its like tranquility would never suceed in fight against the chinese server if they introduced it as an parallel universe accessible through the eve gate :) and theres always the possibility of civil war im sure the devs will start pulling the strings when they see it necessary
Ninna Amarr Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:09:00 - [69] The goons will stop them, just wait and see.
Bawldeux IV Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:09:00 - [70] Originally by: Plutoinum Edited by: Plutoinum on 03/01/2007 00:00:50 Edited by: Plutoinum on 02/01/2007 23:56:45 Originally by: Bawldeux IV Originally by: Plutoinum This war hasn't shown that BoB is unbeatable, it has shown that ASCN couldn't beat BoB. So it takes a force stronger and better organized than ASCN to challenge BoB. Is that impossible to form such an alliance/coalition ? No, but it involves some effort. And you have more means to defeat a strong opponent in EVE than in other games: You can ally with whoever you like, you can outnumber, you don't have to beat them in a 'fair' game with very limited rules like e.g. in sports. The players have the means they need to defeat BoB. If they don't use them, they have no right to complain. ok, you are close, but you are sooo far still...I doubt any alliance will get together and defeat BoB, ever. BoB has 3 year head start, and you can't beat the hands of time...so BoB has won the game... When BoB has all of 0.0 space, the game will be over for many. why? Because empire sucks! If BoB+friends had to go alone vs. RA+Goon+TCF+IMP+IAC(dunno), they would probably have a hard time. Then there are other strong anti-bob forces like the block around D2, CELES, RAT etc. who might assist maybe .... don't know the exact relations at the moment ... But you can't tell me that all those groups are totally helpless against BoB. That's just stupid ! The truth is: BoB is not such a plague for the EVE universe yet that everyone wants to unite against them. Just because you have a big problem with BoB doesn't mean that everyone has. From my perspective the development around RA+Goon is more disturbing. edit: wrote xetic... lol. sorry meant xelas ofc. it is a reality, those 'groups' will never stand together, they would implode on the internal conflict for epeen superiority long before they became a threat to BoB.

Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:12:00 - [71] I know this thread is supposed to be about how much bob sucks/rocks but still... Originally by: Reshei 1) Seed the Tech 2 BPOs on the market There are no words for how angry people like you make me. HAVE YOU NO SHAME? The system we have now for T2 bpos is the best we are going to get. If you want the best items in the game to be grindable for, I suggest you go play a certain game that rhymes with "cow". Besides, we have invention, and I'm sure it's due for a revamp. Oh and I absolutely loathe the "BoB winz eve" mentality. It reeks of unintelligent, pointless bandwaggoning.
Bastogne Caldari Merch Industrial	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:12:00 - [72] Originally by: Khorian Don't you like the fact that YOU can do what YOU want? You don't like BoB? Go join another Alliance that is opposing them and help them out. Who?
Dr Einkeisel Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:17:00 - [73] oh dear god. HELLO ? HELLO ?
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:19:00 - [74] Originally by: Dr Einkeisel oh dear god. HELLO ? HELLO ? You rang? Newest toy for my 63 acre sandbox Building the homestead
Alitha Maru Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:28:00 - [75] I've heard this thing so many times in so many games. But history, both in RL and in games, show that all great empires will fall. In games it is usually due to boredom of the best and most dedicated people in the alliances/corporations. When there is no real challenge anymore, they will leave for something better. Maybe even join the opposite side, just for kicks. When the core dedicated players leave, things tend to fall apart. Then there will be another war, a new alliance will rise to the top and everyone will scream bloody murder and we will be back here at a similar thread again some time in the future Don't worry.
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:29:00 - [76] Edited by: DarkMatter on 03/01/2007 00:34:43 Quote: im sure the devs will start pulling the strings when they see it necessary You see, we don't want that though... It's supposed to be player driven content... I just hope the new SOV system (if they come up with one) makes it much much harder to control space... Alliances the size of LV & Bob should not be able to control what they do, that has to change... We need more players out in 0.0 creating the content, but a more diversified alliance pool... This is just not going to happen, and it's all because of POS'... The T2 lottery & sov/POS' have really hurt the game in this regard... Newest toy for my 63 acre sandbox Building the homestead
Temerlyn Minmatar STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:35:00 - [77] Edited by: Temerlyn on 03/01/2007 00:36:53 Edited by: Temerlyn on 03/01/2007 00:36:23 Again a miss informed post by some one on the outside (seems this way anyway). As far as i can see one thing bob has over many other alliances is a plan and a team. ASCN lack of agressiveness cost them pilots and skill for pvp. Had the BoB vs ascn war taken place a couple months after the g invasion it may have been a different story, back them ascn was leaner and come out of a war pretty hyped. It's safe to say ASCN got fat, had we had proper fighters in the alliance for our number we would of been able to outblob and massacre bob on a daily basis. Even if you take into account the high alt population quotent of ascn we still should of done it. But like most entites we have never gotten a decent name for ourselves as a pvp corp. STK itself is a reasonably well known and respected name and in the bob war showed we have some mettle but its never enough. So to fight BoB or such entities we need more pilots. We have to suffer with open recruitment from the general populace while bob has such a name they can pick or choose as they see fit. Thus their quality of pilot is better. Not only that they select those who have proven they will fight, not say they will and dont step up to the plate. ASCn invited almost anyone in several corps just to meet the requirements of 100 people in a corp. Many of those corps never had a plan to survive a seige or enough people with honor for their corp. Many packed up and left when bob came knocking, many more left when we started to loose major engagements. Even when i am on the loosing team i understand its not totally bob being uber an all that made them win. It was us loosing what we once had. Again and again eve is won by might not how many mins you can mine. STK will fight BoB pretty much from here on in. Will we win, most likely not, infact i dont have any delusions about it. What BoB provide us is now someone to fight, to allow those who started to pvp and enjoy it to enjoy it more with a sense of doing something for the corp instead of sensless ganks in empire. BoB have taught us that apathy and a non combat attitude is not the way to be remembered in eve. We will be remembered for sticking it to BoB but at the same time with respect and knowledge that this is how to play eve. Bob can be beaten if alliances adopt better policies and team work.
Stanis Gallente 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:36:00 - [78] BoB will not win EVE bcs I will never allow it! There, not you can go to sleep and not worrie about it... On the other hand, nubs talking that any alliance can control whole EVE make me sick. After all, we are not on the China server!
Bastogne Caldari Merch Industrial	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:40:00 - [79] I wish the southeast wasn't so full of in-fighting because there are some pretty good pvp'ers down here. All these guys do day in day out is slaughter each other.
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:41:00 - [80] Quote: BoB have taught us that apathy and a non combat attitude is not the way to be remembered in eve. I think that's part of the problem... If you play EVE to be remembered, chances are you won't... Newest toy for my 63 acre sandbox Building the homestead

Phyrr Minmatar The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:44:00 - [81] Originally by: Jim McGregor Ever heard what happened to the Roman Empire? Or any other empire for that matter.
Sakura Nihil Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.03 00:51:00 - [82] It all comes down to control - can BoB maintain strong internal cohesion that will prevent corporate power struggles, while at the same time keeping enough numbers and firepower to keep their serfs in check, defend their borders, and conquer new territory? For the short-term, yes, they'll be fine, and be a superpower. But, as strong as they are, in time they will fracture and succumb to internal political pressures, it is inevitable - hence, don't worry about them, they're not going to "Win EVE" by any margin, although it is likely they'll go down in the history books as the alliance that came closest to it .
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.03 01:04:00 - [83] What would ruin EVE is a single controlling alliance preventing 99% of players from experiencing 99% of the game's content. That would kill EVE. However: 1) BoB are not a single, all powerful, all controlling alliance. They're good, but they arn't that good. 2) Winning wars does not cause -1). People win wars all the time. Someone had to win that war. If ASCN won that war, would we be saying the same thing, positions reversed? 3) BoB do not want -1) to occour. BoB is a PvP alliance. Their members love PvP. They war-dec for PvP. If BoB were all powerful, who would they fight? Bored members would soon split off and start fighting each other for their kicks- it'd be that or quit EVE, having "won". 4) T2 BPOs were not the reason for BoB's victory. Of the two rivals, ASCN were the richer and more numerous enemy. BoB won by (presumably) being a more dedicated and/or talented PvP force than their rivals. 5) You worry too much. -----------------------------------------------
Helen Tranter	Posted - 2007.01.03 01:33:00 - [84] Edited by: Helen Tranter on 03/01/2007 01:36:49 My First Rant I have kept my keyboard silent throughout the war against Bob, but would just like to say this with out diss'ing the good PvP's. The Motto going around BOB and its Slave Corps at the start of the war was "ANITHING GOES" This means they used any tactic ingame and out of game to gain an advantage, they know the rules and know what rules to break before there players get band. This is a sad fact and only detracts from there win and will stain any Bob player in the eyes of Eve's community weather they are part of these tactics or not. The fact that CCP has allowed this to take place is there failing and Eve's loss. Ex ASCN PS: Plz bare in mind that the original poster of this thead is BOB
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.01.03 01:35:00 - [85] Originally by: Helen Tranter My First Rant I have kept my keyboard silent throughout the war against Bob, but would just like to say this with out diss'ing the good PvP's. The Motto going around BOB and its Slave Corps at the start of the war was " ANITHING GOES". This means they used any tactic ingame and out of game to gain an advantage, they know the rules and know what rules to break before there players get band. This is a sad fact and only detracts from there win and will stain any Bob player in the eyes of Eve's community weather they are part of these tactics or not. The fact that CCP has allowed this to take place is there failing and Eve's loss. Ex ASCN PS: Plz bare in mind that the original poster of this thead is BOB Out of game tactics? Like what? Newest toy for my 63 acre sandbox Building the homestead
Shayla Sh'inlux Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.03 01:37:00 - [86] Let me get straight that I have a lot of respect for what BoB accomplished and the determination of their players. Fact is, unfortunately, that as it is BoB makes alliance warfare and the building empires part less attractive, if not impossible, to the rest of Eve. In fact, BoB got that part right and basically said: "join us, be our friend or never get to endgame", to put it boldly. There will always be the odd corp saying: "We will oppose BoB whatever whenever", but seriously what are they gonna do? I know of several people that said that and are now in Evolution or Dice. Quote: ASCN was the theoretically strongest entity we have ever engaged in a serious war. Practically it turned out a bummer, which is at least partly due to our skill at 'total' warfare rather then the 'pistols at dawn' style that half of Eve's public seems to prefer. While true to some extent your succes has a lot to do with the types of players in BoB right now. Due to the early succes of the original Evolution/RKK/BNC combination your alliance pretty much contains all "serious" players of today. The kind of guys that are always there, play 3-4 hours a day, stay up late at night to defend a PoS and spend countless hours in blobs. Every time BoB defeats another entity it adds the hardcore group of said entity to her ranks, making the gap wider every day. That's just plain clever. It's the kind of player needed for succes in the game as it is, while a guy like me, who squeezes in the odd hour during weekdays and an evening in the weekend isn't gonna make you win wars. You offer an attractive environment to the hardcore player. No more - no less. That and that alone is the basis for BoB's succes. I also don't agree that ASCN was the strongest entity. They were big and fat, with nothing but hobbits looking at their own wallet. Their core corps folded in a matter of weeks and I'm sure you acquired several new players that wanted to win Eve instead of be laughed at on the C&A forum. The strongest target is still up north, but I have no doubt BoB would crush D2 in a month tops would they go for them. They might have a few dozen nice new pilots to add to your ranks too. Quote: Anyway, they lasted ridiculously short for the amount of infrastructure and pure reserves they had lying around. That is because their average pilot doesn't feel like sitting in a fleet long enough outblob you 1:2 in order to stand a chance. Don't forget that due to all the experience, skillpoints and die-hards in your alliance one cannot take on a BoB fleet with equal numbers and expect to come out somewhat in your favor - you'd get completely massacred. Quote: But to conclude what the OP is concluding is slightly ridiculous. If T2 BPO's win wars then we should by all rights have lost this one. ISK is only one factor in a war, and it's not the most important by far, that's the real lesso from this war, not that BoB will kill all of you because of having a few tech2 bpo's. Absolutely true. However, what BoB is doing, is converting 0.0 into an extremely attractive place for pirates. There is the core of BoB parading over someone else's space, killing morale and splitting them up. Then there's the installment of friendlies, making old enemies into new friends and then the protection leaves and shoots at a new target. Meanwhile, building an empire of your own means you will just lose it to BoB at some point (I think the victory over ASCN showed as much), so the only alternative is to go friendly with them and have nothing to fear from other alliances as a bonus. In the end all we see is faction battleships NPC'ing which makes your regions a pirate's heaven. That said, I personally don't mind since I realized my gaming hours are not enough to participate in 0.0 empires, but it does ruin the game in a way. Originally by: "Cy4n1d3" You can't PVP with 4 mids.
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.01.03 01:47:00 - [87] Quote: That said, I personally don't mind since I realized my gaming hours are not enough to participate in 0.0 empires, but it does ruin the game in a way. This is a huge part of it... My main is in a 0.0 alliance, but finding the time to contribute in a meaningful way is a very difficult taskà You can't have an alliance full of half-assed part timers and expect to accomplish anything... That's what sucks about EVE, only the hardcore win... The more hardcore veterans an alliance has, the more powerful they are, has nothing to do with the total member count or number of outposts, etc... Newest toy for my 63 acre sandbox Building the homestead
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.01.03 02:19:00 - [88] Originally by: Ab Initio Edited by: Ab Initio on 03/01/2007 02:14:14 Originally by: DarkMatter That's what sucks about EVE, only the hardcore win... Hate to burst your bubble, but that is life I'm afraid. You will always lose to someone who is willing to put more effort into something than you are. Thats equivelant to saying that your place of employment sucks because people that work harder, and are willing to put more effort in, get ahead. Perhaps that is the case more in EVE than other MMORPGs because of it's free form nature. Actually, in RL there are plenty of ppl who work less, and make more, lol... Even where I work... Believe me; I'm not afraid of hard work, look at my sig. I just can't expend that effort on a game however, and that's the problem, it appears many in Bob can... I understand EVE is like a second job, and those who work hard get ahead, and those who can't play long hours don't... Guess that's the nature of the MMO beast... It still sucks though, as EVE as a relaxing pastime just doesn't seem to work no matter how hard you try... Newest toy for my 63 acre sandbox Building the homestead
revan101 Caldari Odd Enterprises	Posted - 2007.01.03 02:24:00 - [89] Originally by: Reshei The BoB Victory over ASCN is yet another indication of just how poerful that alliance is. When we think about the reasons for their victory the situation with the game and its future become potentially bleak and unappealing. The main factor in BoB overcomming so many people, not just ASCN, is the fact that they have such a huge amount of money that it is frankly incomprehensible. Trillions of ISK are controlled by that alliance through their BPOs of tech 2 gear. Therefore, it is inevitable that they will overcome anyone that comes up against them. There is just no way that anyone else in the game can compete with that kind of raw financial might. It is raw financial might that won World War II and every other war that was ever fought. Patton was once quoted as saying "tactics win battles but LOGISTICS win wars". So are we looking at the takeover of the whole Eve world by one organization? The problem with this is that there is no way for anyone to compete with BoB. No matter how hard someone works, it is impossible for them to get the kind of raw resources that BoB has and CONTINUES to compile. The main reason for this is the fact that BoB ownes so many tech 2 blueprints and makes so much money off of them that "winning the lottery" hardly covers it. The reality of the situation is that this aspect alone means that no one else can compete. Lets face it. Invention is an utter flop. The promise of invention was that people that worked hard would be able to use invention and enter tech 2 production, thus driving down the price of tech 2 and the MONSTEROUS proffits the tech 2 BPO owners get. The reality is that the parts to do invention are so rare, difficult to get and once the last piece is actually seeded in the game in the complexes they will be camped 24/7 and likely by people like BoB. Something radical needs to shift in the economy of eve or the alliance wars, the conflict, the politics of the game are going to vanish behind a fleet of 200 BOB carriers and Dreadnoughts and Titans. Tech 2 blueprints have been the IDOCY of CCP. A policy that was il-concieved from the start and il-implemented. It is the most embarassing thing about Eve and the biggest threat to its survival. The implementation of invention is a PATHETIC attempt at resolving the problem. I sugest CCP do the following: 1) Seed the Tech 2 BPOs on the market 2) Control the prices by controlling the rarity of the moon mined minerals and other parts that are needed to create the items. 3) Put a little raw and advanced materials in all T2 gear to create compeditive market that no one can control as anyone even in high sec could moon mine the mins. 4) Switch invention to find out the faction versions of ships and modules in order to compensate for not getting tech 2 BPCs. If CCP doesnt get a handle on this sometime soon, Eve will eventually be Empire Space and BoB Space. People will be frustrated they cant get anywhere or build anthing. Alliances will disolve because they dont have the ABILITY to get the Trillions of ISK to compete and the game will lose its flavor of competition and thse competing. Without massive and RAPID changes to the game, the chances of anyone small being able to do anything will be near 0. And when BoB has taken all of 0.0 we can expect millions of war decs so they can take the rest of eve. Why am I posting on an alt? Simple. I dont want to incur the wrath of BoB either. One doesn't poke a stick in the foot of a giant that can crush you like an ant. uhh lil eve history lesson on allaice that die Ca die Fa die Nva die Sa die Xetic die Norad die All the major alliance die then comeback as new other alliances there nothing wrong alliances have been dieing since uhh the game began learn about eve history Alliances die all the time then reform then die then reform normally with a new name and region of space shush nublet
Shayla Sh'inlux Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.03 02:24:00 - [90] Edited by: Shayla Sh''inlux on 03/01/2007 02:25:49 Originally by: "Ab Initio" So your point is that people who put in minimal effort should be more successfull than those that are playing to win. It all makes sense now! I guess what he's saying is that the game would be a lot more fun for hundreds if not thousands of people if the hardcores were spread out a bit more instead of being piled up in one group. Originally by: "Cy4n1d3" You can't PVP with 4 mids.



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