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Every year, there are less users playing, why??

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Denavit We are not bad. Just unlucky DARKNESS. 5	Posted - 2016.07.15 20:51:29 - [1] - Quote Is is because PLEX prices, i remember buying them at 550mill, 500mill, now is almost 1bill, or is it because the changes are making oldSchoolers quit?
Elenahina Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 964	Posted - 2016.07.15 20:53:33 - [2] - Quote Denavit wrote: Is is because PLEX prices, i remember buying them at 550mill, 500mill, now is almost 1bill, or is it because the changes are making oldSchoolers quit? Yes and yes, as well as other reasons, such as an aging player base that has less free time. Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you.
Kaivarian Coste Beyond Imports and Exports 71	Posted - 2016.07.15 21:00:24 - [3] - Quote Maybe my memory is fuzzy but I seem to recall when PLEX was only 350m. I remember when belts would be stripped bare in most high sec systems. And this wasn't too long ago (maybe 4 or 5 years when I first signed up?)
Shallanna Yassavi Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 253	Posted - 2016.07.15 21:06:53 - [4] - Quote Plex used to be 1.2B. Either supply as spiked, or demand has dropped. A signature :o
Elenahina Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 965	Posted - 2016.07.15 21:08:50 - [5] - Quote Kaivarian Coste wrote: Maybe my memory is fuzzy but I seem to recall when PLEX was only 350m. I remember when belts would be stripped bare in most high sec systems. And this wasn't too long ago (maybe 4 or 5 years when I first signed up?) When they were first introduced...I remember that as well. Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you.
Doc Fury Furious Enterprises 8323	Posted - 2016.07.15 21:24:43 - [6] - Quote There are lots of other games to play, and CCP's latest developments seem to revolve around the further ~~fleecing~~ monetization of existing players, and attracting short-attention-span pay2win types of new players. Gÿ+ The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper: 'Hodor'.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 3400	Posted - 2016.07.15 21:49:56 - [7] - Quote MMO's popularity in general is dropping, with MPORG's (Think I got that right) and CCG's taking over the market. If you put the growth fall curve of most MMO's next to EVE's EVE continued to grow for longer and is falling much slower than most. Meaning CCP is actually doing a lot of things right. Most of the ones claiming 'success' are P2W F2P MMO's where they have a small core of players spending huge sums a month, and they claim everyone who has ever made an account even for 1 hour of game play as a 'player'. So when they talk about 7 million players or what have you, they aren't talking about concurrent logins or anything like active accounts. They are talking about total accounts ever. Which if CCP released the figures I'm guessing would actually be huge in EVE. Even total accounts that ever subscribed would be a significant number. Recent development decisions may have a small impact on the player numbers, but I would expect that a lot of it is based on economic & social factors which are utterly out of CCP's control.
Memphis Baas 1721	Posted - 2016.07.15 22:56:52 - [8] - Quote The two reasons you've listed are not it / don't cover all the possible reasons why. This thread is going to devolve into lots of opinions, without any data or proof to back any of them. And a lot of the opinions are just going to bash CCP, which is just going to **** them off and devolve into flaming anyway. This thread is a flame bait thread. Posting "why does this game suck?" on a game's primary forum is a troll post.
DaReaper Net 7 Cannon.Fodder 2871	Posted - 2016.07.15 23:27:26 - [9] - Quote many reasons, but none 100%. As the reason people stop playing are subjective. You also can;t take the eve-offline pcu numbers to be the be all that ends all, as there are lots of people who are playing training online, and just leave a few accounts accruing skill points but they don;t need to long into due to the queue. We are actually up a bit form last year. But as its summer, we should start dipping some in players. I still predict a decent rebound next year, which the trend was started but has since sorta turned stable OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining! Yes i am optimistic about eve.. i'm giving it till dec 31st 2016 before i doom n gloom
Denavit We are not bad. Just unlucky DARKNESS. 6	Posted - 2016.07.15 23:47:23 - [10] - Quote Memphis Baas wrote: The two reasons you've listed are not it / don't cover all the possible reasons why. This thread is going to devolve into lots of opinions, without any data or proof to back any of them. And a lot of the opinions are just going to bash CCP, which is just going to **** them off and devolve into flaming anyway. This thread is a flame bait thread. Posting "why does this game suck?" on a game's primary forum is a troll post. Im asking in a good way, i've never said this game sucked, i love this game and thas why i am asking, because i see it, and i want more ppl to play. Im just trying to figure out why ppl stoped playing.
Shiloh Templeton Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 559	Posted - 2016.07.16 00:16:38 - [11] - Quote Many more options - many of which are free to play on cell phones.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 607	Posted - 2016.07.16 00:45:43 - [12] - Quote About 70-80% of my recreational computer use is done via mobile devices now. Not saying that's the reason. It's way too complex an issue to assign a single reason. For me anyway, it is a contributor to less overall time in game. I still play daily, but not the same amount of time I used to.
Emiko P'eng 141	Posted - 2016.07.16 01:37:34 - [13] - Quote As a talk at Fanfest showed the majority of the Plex price increase especially the spikes can be attributed to the 'Real World' exchange rate of the Russian Ruble & the USA financing the Fracking of oil with loans they are having trouble paying back! EVE Fanfest 2016 - LAB-M: EVE and the Economics of War the detailed description is about 37mins in If you told me before that talk that the above was the reason for high Plex prices I would have not believed it It just goes to show how Real EVE is The other thing from Fanfest is the Pillars of the EVE Online Economy Infographic which shows just how much ISK exists in the EVE Universe.
Princess Adhara University of Caille Gallente Federation 21	Posted - 2016.07.16 01:37:49 - [14] - Quote Posting in an "Eve is dying" thread! \o/
Roenok Baalnorn Sadistically Sinister 200	Posted - 2016.07.16 01:47:45 - [15] - Quote People went to the F2P market which actually isnt F2P and is more expensive than a sub game. There are people who spend hundreds of dollars A DAY on these games. One of the more advertised of these, game of war, is actually one of the biggest money sinks ever created. The f2p games ive tried are nothing bur p2w pyramid schemes. Ill stick to sub games. I think one of eve's problem is commitment required. Game of war, you can log in for like 10 minutes then log out and actually do something in game. In eve you log in for 10 minutes you can fly between docks. Im not saying they should put things in docks. But eve requires a bigger commitment...and as it was said a PC. A lot of people are glued to their phones. PCs themselves are less popular than they were 5 years ago and so are pc non mobile games.
Infinity Ziona Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 2409	Posted - 2016.07.16 02:35:30 - [16] - Quote Its a 13 year old game. Despite CCPs insistence that updates make it EvE not 13 years old it still is. CCP Fozzie GÇ£We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGÇª in null sec anomalies. GÇ£* Kaalrus pwned..... :)
MidnightWyvern Night Theifs Curatores Veritatis Alliance 278	Posted - 2016.07.16 03:37:58 - [17] - Quote Elenahina wrote: Denavit wrote: Is is because PLEX prices, i remember buying them at 550mill, 500mill, now is almost 1bill, or is it because the changes are making oldSchoolers quit? Yes and yes, as well as other reasons, such as an aging player base that has less free time. People seem to keep discounting that one. A lot of the original 2003 crowd are growing up, settling down, or just moving on with their lives. Rattati Senpai noticed us! See you in the next FPS! Alts: Saray Wyvern, Mobius Wyvern (Dust 514)
Roenok Baalnorn Sadistically Sinister 201	Posted - 2016.07.16 04:48:52 - [18] - Quote Infinity Ziona wrote: Its a 13 year old game. Despite CCPs insistence that updates make it EvE not 13 years old it still is. Eve has had pretty much every part of it upgraded to new technology more than once. Its actually not really much different in terms of tech than other much newer space games ive played.
Joia Crenca Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 343	Posted - 2016.07.16 05:42:24 - [19] - Quote Eve Off-line data We're actually pretty stable in terms of logged in players. We don't have the 45k average of the last 5 years, but haven't dropped off a cliff yet.
Joia Crenca Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 343	Posted - 2016.07.16 05:43:36 - [20] - Quote Roenok Baalnorn wrote: Infinity Ziona wrote: Its a 13 year old game. Despite CCPs insistence that updates make it EvE not 13 years old it still is. Eve has had pretty much every part of it upgraded to new technology more than once. Its actually not really much different in terms of tech than other much newer space games ive played. That, and the gameplay remains very different than most other options out there. (If someone has experience with Star Citizen or No Man's Sky that can tell us differently, please do so.)
Joia Crenca Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 343	Posted - 2016.07.16 05:45:59 - [21] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: About 70-80% of my recreational computer use is done via mobile devices now. Not saying that's the reason. It's way too complex an issue to assign a single reason. For me anyway, it is a contributor to less overall time in game. I still play daily, but not the same amount of time I used to. Hmmm... so if CCP came out with an EVE-tie-in that was a little like Pokemon Go, where we'd hunt each other based on coordinates given on our smart phones? Wait, Never Mind! Real life ganking doesn't allow for waking up in a clone bay! Don't do it, CCP!!!
Tipa Riot Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 2692	Posted - 2016.07.16 07:24:41 - [22] - Quote The war is over, goons are dead, it's summer ... and, the event sucks, there is no reason to fight over nullsec anymore and citadels in their half-finished state are not much more than a gimmick right now. I'm my own NPC alt.
Tao Dolcino EVE University Ivy League 538	Posted - 2016.07.16 07:41:46 - [23] - Quote Since 2-3 years, CCP is using a great amount of energy to waste our gameplay. It has been the new map, the new scanning interface, the new icons, the new UI, the new camera, etc etc... each time forcing it on us despite a huge negative feedback during the tests. Each time we've had to fight hard here to make these incompetent changes optionals. That's the reason why i have left for one year. Now, with the last station camera, we've had to fight again to have it optional, but at least it did not take them long to react and give us the choice, which. after all, is the best way to keep everyone happy. When i leave EVE, it's always because of CCP's stupid choices. I'm not going to describe them again here, but trust me, the list is long... CCP 2015 : "Fluff is good"
Adoris Nolen Sama Guild 82	Posted - 2016.07.16 09:14:28 - [24] - Quote MidnightWyvern wrote: People seem to keep discounting that one. A lot of the original 2003 crowd are growing up, settling down, or just moving on with their lives. This. I'm in the latter part of a decade on EVE. In my freaking 30's. Priorities change.
Sustrai Aditua Intandofisa 389	Posted - 2016.07.16 10:01:35 - [25] - Quote Emiko P'eng wrote: ... the USA financing the Fracking of oil with loans they are having trouble paying back! OMG this is hilarious. Whoever dreamed this up should write for stand-up comics...fracking loans....hooboy. If we get chased by zombies, I'm tripping you.
Caleb Seremshur The Atomic Fallout Kids 825	Posted - 2016.07.17 04:49:37 - [26] - Quote Doc Fury wrote: There are lots of other games to play, and CCP's latest developments seem to revolve around the further ~~fleecing~~ monetization of existing players, and attracting short-attention-span pay2win types of new players who don't stick around very long and are distracted easily. "Why whales sing - how big spenders drive retention and virality" by CCP
Caleb Seremshur The Atomic Fallout Kids 825	Posted - 2016.07.17 04:50:31 - [27] - Quote Sustrai Aditua wrote: Emiko P'eng wrote: ... the USA financing the Fracking of oil with loans they are having trouble paying back! OMG this is hilarious. Whoever dreamed this up should write for stand-up comics...fracking loans....hooboy. Super powers don't owe debts. All they do when they want to write off loans is declare them void.
Tzuke State War Academy Caldari State 32	Posted - 2016.07.17 06:35:37 - [28] - Quote Many reasons...game has hardly changed in 13 years, greater competition than 3 years ago, rise of ftp mmo models, complexity of gameplay with the minimal tutorial explaining things It's no different to any other mmo atm. Check out any mmo forums and you'll see the same posts there. I think I only play eve now due to playing mmos for over 15 years and it's out of habit rather than enjoying the game... As I'm burnt out on all the rest
Cedille Mureau Institute of Archaeology 11	Posted - 2016.07.17 10:26:25 - [29] - Quote Denavit wrote: Im asking in a good way, i've never said this game sucked, i love this game and thas why i am asking, because i see it, and i want more ppl to play. Im just trying to figure out why ppl stoped playing. It's an acquired taste and is not for everyone. It can be hard to get started, less so now than when I first played, but the learning curve is something that needs a lot of work to master. Again, the atmosphere is not to everyone's taste, it can be pretty cold and hostile, which is something that CCP deliberately went for. So people can be hurt and think, "That's not for me." Having said that EVE can get under your skin, I can't seem to get to grips with all the back-stabbing, griefing and so on that are part of the game, but I have just come back from a lay-off of about 18 months. There's something about the game that draws me back again and again.
Max Fubarticus K Diamond Holding LTD. Bullets Bombs and Blondes 126	Posted - 2016.07.17 13:01:22 - [30] - Quote Denavit wrote: Is is because PLEX prices, i remember buying them at 550mill, 500mill, now is almost 1bill, or is it because the changes are making oldSchoolers quit? The answer is yes. After the "Big Bang", space time as we know it began to stretch. As a result... ...In conclusion, we are doomed. Everyone logs in on a different game when you log in to Eve. Every time we have an "Eve is dying troll thread", untold gazillions of neutrinos die, having never met the gluon of their dreams. You should be ashamed of the callous destruction you have caused Have a nice day Max Civil discourse is uniquely human. After all, when is the last time a pride of lions and a herd of water buffalo negotiated SOV over a watering hole? Never. Someone either gets their ass kicked or eaten. At the end of the day someone holds SOV.
Denavit We are not bad. Just unlucky DARKNESS. 11	Posted - 2016.07.17 15:08:53 - [31] - Quote Max Fubarticus wrote: Denavit wrote: Is is because PLEX prices, i remember buying them at 550mill, 500mill, now is almost 1bill, or is it because the changes are making oldSchoolers quit? The answer is yes. After the "Big Bang", space time as we know it began to stretch. As a result... ...In conclusion, we are doomed. Everyone logs in on a different game when you log in to Eve. Every time we have an "Eve is dying troll thread", untold gazillions of neutrinos die, having never met the gluon of their dreams. You should be ashamed of the callous destruction you have caused Have a nice day Max ooohh shiieeeitt!! =( , well i just want to play like always, but i want more ppl to play, i also left for a time, but i do thing NULL needs more incentive to be wanted, like a lot more!
Yun Kuai Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop 327	Posted - 2016.07.18 08:23:09 - [32] - Quote In my own personal opinion, I feel there are 4 main reaons why the player count is no longer at the 45k average and peaking in the 60k numbers about 5 years ago. 1) The biggest problem area is that in my almost 8 of years of playing, the game's core mechanics (read pve) are almost exactly the same as when I started. That means 8 years of grinding the same anoms, the same missions, the same mining, the same industry, the same incursions, etc. 2) The inflation factor has a big turn of for a lot of people; i.e. too much work for to little reward. I remember when PLEX were first introduced and sat around 300mil. At the time those were still considered quite expensive, especially when you could buy a dominix hull for 50mil. That meant I could rat in a haven for 30mins each day and have enough isk to lose a BS doing silly stuff or I could buy a hand full of BCs, dozens of cruisers, etc. I had a lot more fun because I had a lot of time to actually go pew pew. 3) Cookie cutter class changes also took a lot of fun out flying different ships. Almost all hulls now follow 1-2 standard fits as nothing else really fits anymore. All of the ships lost a lot of their faction's uniqueness during tiericde and it suddenly became pretty much similar ships using slightly different weapon systems. 4) Nullsec decay and blue donoughts lead to a large number of people quitting the game as CCP dragged their feet years too long to change the nullsec mechanics. The new sov at least gets people actively playing again, but there's still room for improvement even if it was too little too late. 5)* I won't classify this one as a major issue but I feel with all of the 3rd party sites that monitor everything I feel like the game, espeically nullsec is no longer wild and dangerous. Too many areas are mapped down to the most minute details and have lost the appeal since there's nothing left to discover. More emergent gameplay that can't be calculated down to an exact science; read random generator, would be good for the game as it would add some much needed "newess" for everyone. --------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::-------
Gimme Sake State War Academy Caldari State 402	Posted - 2016.07.18 08:55:54 - [33] - Quote I find it ironic how people complain about plex prices while stashing it by the thousands. "Never not blob!" ~ Plato
Remiel Pollard Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 7625	Posted - 2016.07.18 08:58:56 - [34] - Quote Yun Kuai wrote: the game's core mechanics (read pvp) FTFY GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Malharrion The Scope Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2016.07.18 11:11:03 - [35] - Quote If CCP had implemented Walking in stations , Walking on planets. PLanetary vehicles and planeraty industry / farming etc. Then the game would be busting the 100k Subs online mark right now. The server infrastructure would need upgrading it would be so active.
Musashi IV Off-World Mining 44	Posted - 2016.07.18 11:13:47 - [36] - Quote Denavit wrote: Is is because PLEX prices, i remember buying them at 550mill, 500mill, now is almost 1bill, or is it because the changes are making oldSchoolers quit? The high price of PLEX is just one of the reasons EVE has fewer players. Changes to ICE mining is another reason. I had a 3 account ICE mining corporation. After the changes to ICE mining I could not mine enough ICE to buy PLEX for all 3 accounts so I closed 2 of them. Now rarely log into one of my accounts.
Roenok Baalnorn Sadistically Sinister 215	Posted - 2016.07.18 12:59:03 - [37] - Quote Quote: 1) The biggest problem area is that in my almost 8 of years of playing, the game's core mechanics (read pve) are almost exactly the same as when I started. The core of the game is pvp and to get people to fight. That core must be supported by a pve sector. I agree the PVE in this game is boring as hell. All the sites are the same across all factions. They basically used a template to reproduce the same site with a different faction of ships. I dont know how they do it, but when i do such things using dev tools to mod a game i can build a site as simple as an anom in about 10-15 minutes from scratch in other games. Sometime like a mission or plex would take me 15-45 minutes. And i just dabble in modding game. I didnt actually go to school for it. Their answer for this: Lets add "god mode/ you will not survive" sites! Ghost sites some of which appear in high, you are just opening cans thinking finally they made sites worth doing, and then boom rats warp in and insta pop you with there IED cans. And you are like WTF this is a 0.8 system! Turns out you need a well tanked( read slow) ship to run them. And then we have the super dreads that just hotdrop you in anoms. Yes thats fun. Nothing like an Ewar toting, tacklenought, that does good dps and tanks like an entire wave of normal rats. None of this makes sites more fun. It makes it more of a pain in the ass and only enhances one displeasure of grinding. Pvers tend to want to do things that put their ships at grave risk when they have other options. That is why high sec is so overly populated and should be CCPs first big clue. Mining is boring and always has been. I dont think there is anything you can do to making mining entertaining...well maybe if you seriously revamped the whole mining system. Any space game in which i had to mine in, it was the least enjoyable part of the game. The human mind is sort of built to enjoy rewards especially surprise high value rewards even if those rewards are few and far between. That is how P2Ws get people to spend their entire savings on a game. Mining, in any game, offers no reward. It is like cutting grass, washing dishes, or cleaning out your car. Its a necessary evil most people want to put off till the second tuesday of the week. Quote: 2) The inflation factor has a big turn of for a lot of people; i.e. too much work for to little reward. I remember when PLEX were first introduced and sat around 300mil. Plex went up slightly on the cash side. It use to cost $35 on a third party site( battleclinic) for 60 day GTC. It now cost $40. That contributed some to the increase in cost. Some more of the cost comes from flexibility in how you can convert real money into isk. Plex use to be the only way to do that. Now their are other ways to do that. I would say the AUR store in general has drove the price up. Another big factor is Ihubs and the butterfly effect. Ihubs made deadspace and pirate faction more available on the market. Changes to locating sites also made it easier and faster to find combat sites. People that do this for isk started making a lot of isk. This influx of deadspace and faction made such things fairly cheap, while the people that find it got super rich. 900 mil isk is really nothing in null. thats like 300 mil in high sec. The price of the high end stuff has went down and the price of the low end stuff has went up. The mineral market is actually much higher now than it was 5 years ago and i actually stumbled across an old grismar ore page that gave mineral prices...for early 2007. Trit = 2.37(5.79 now), Pyer= 4 (9.28 now), mexa=21(74.80 now), isogen=64.06(91.08), Nocx=93.76(479.96), Zydrine and Mega lost half their value while morphite lost about 15% of its value. That has to do a lot with the changes to ores, drone poop, and recycling of modules( which most people dont even bother to pick up anymore) Over the price of a plex reflects how hard it is to make money in Eve. And its not that hard to make isk in eve unless you are a grind/wage slave and do the whole x amount of work= y amount of isk per hour. Risk and thinking outside of the box are the big pay offs in eve. Grinding missions and mining are like working front line at mc donalds. Quote: 3) Cookie cutter class changes also took a lot of fun out flying different ships. I disagree with the first part of your statement. People fly a lot more different ships now. Use too each race had a best in class for each class of ship and all the others were trash. Now each ship has more of a purpose based on what you are doing. I fly far more different ships now in pvp fleets than i ever did before. And i fit them differently. Usually having 2 or 3 fits per ship depending on situation. However i do agree with you about module tiericide. What they should of did was cut the mat requirements of t1 modules in half, increased the cost of t2 modules by 50% And then adjusted drop rates of the t1 metas so meta 4 was more rare and more expensive than a meta 2. As you go up from meta 1 to meta 5 the pg/cpu requirements increase very slightly per meta. Then made some slight changes to faction mods and above. What they did was heavy handed and dumb the module part of the game down to WoW level.
Roenok Baalnorn Sadistically Sinister 215	Posted - 2016.07.18 13:57:51 - [38] - Quote Quote: 4) Nullsec decay and blue donoughts lead to a large number of people quitting the game as CCP dragged their feet years too long to change the nullsec mechanics. The new sov at least gets people actively playing again, but there's still room for improvement even if it was too little too late. Nullsec is generally more populated than when i first entered it 7-8 years ago. I could go several systems and not see a soul. Getting a system to myself in alliance space wasnt hard as long as i didnt care about true sec or a dock. Now you will be hard pressed to go more than 2 jumps without seeing people most times of day. And thats after they added 2500 WH systems which take probably a few thousand people out of sov null. There are alliances that have few to no blues. The norm is to blue everything still. But some still only blue on a temp basis for certain reason and then the blue status is removed. It has always been an issue since i started playing eve. Its a hard problem to fix because certain alliance leaders have narcissistic issues that lead them to grow there alliance into a stupidly huge state and then blue a bunch of other alliances so they can keep their space using overwhelming numbers( to make up for a lack of pvp skill) and their ego intact. Jedi mind link sov is boring as hell. Id rather bash POSes. at least the shoot back. Playing frigate chess with entosis frigs and jamming frigs is just a stupid way to do sov. It would be like Cuba and the US fighting over florida using cars to run around and hoist their countries flag at the city hall in select major cities in the state. and whoever gets all their flags up at the same time wins and takes control of florida. Sov should be about fighting and require a commitment of assets to acquire and keep. Not 5 guys and some entosis links. I understand what CCP was trying to do. But making it more boring and less about fighting was not the answer. It didnt solve any problems really. A decent size alliance can still take control from a smaller one with relative ease. If they want to get rid of the mega alliances and blue donuts then they need to directly focus on them rather than skirting the issue and trying to lead people away from that tactic. There is one alliance in this game that really keeps this blue donut and owning large amounts of space going. This one alliance that has a leader that tries to project their "influence" to areas of space that isnt even close to their actual boarders. They are basically the mafia of eve trying to get other alliances to pay "tribute" to them to keep them from invading their space. THAT alliance needs to die permanently and its narcissistic leader needs to be banned from the game. Because that one alliance is the major proponent of everything that is wrong with null sov warfare. Until people wise up and destroy that alliance and force it out of sov null forever, it will always be the cancer it has been for years on null sec. Quote: 5)* I won't classify this one as a major issue but I feel with all of the 3rd party sites that monitor everything I feel like the game, espeically nullsec is no longer wild and dangerous. Eve has lost the feeling of being in space. Space is suppose to feel vastly empty and like you can go places very few to no one else has been. Eve is pretty much like a metro area in space. The problem is if you spread people out to much there is no reason to interact. If you pack them all together than it doesnt feel like a space game. You might as well be in a major city and alliances can own blocks and players building. Same thing difference graphics. So you have to find a balance that gets people to interact but makes space feel spacey.
Demica Diaz SE-1 388	Posted - 2016.07.18 19:33:33 - [39] - Quote I am probably all alone on this boat but I started playing EVE during promise of human avatar gameplay and I would play much more EVE if that had come true. But it didnt.
Judaa K'Marr Power-Hug Training Bootcamp 15	Posted - 2016.07.18 20:29:48 - [40] - Quote The game seems to be in a perpetual state of transition.
Burriac Ministry of War Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2016.07.18 21:43:43 - [41] - Quote Judaa K'Marr wrote: The game seems to be in a perpetual state of transition. Transition implies going somewhere and it is just not clear that it is going anywhere. The new "event", I suppose, is designed to make PVE more interesting. But, if you don't play 24/7, you can't find enough of certain sites to avoid falling into "farm the Serp Shipyards" i.e. do the same lvl 3 mission over and over again. Just one example of the Eve malaise: PVE used to be simply dull and imaginative. CCP have now managed to add frustrating to dull and unimaginative. If there is a "transition", it's not going to any place nice. A shame (which is another way of saying a cretinous ruining of a fundamentally different and interesting game).
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4961	Posted - 2016.07.18 21:48:52 - [42] - Quote PLEX prices have nothing to do with it. Just stop that nonsense please. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Elsia Browne Aliastra Gallente Federation 2	Posted - 2016.07.18 22:02:55 - [43] - Quote Honestly there are a lot of reasons to the decline in the EVE player base. Just to list some, that CCP could potentially fix and possibly maintain a stable growth in the player base. 1.) Complete started projects such as walking in stations/citadels, and bounty system. 2.) Rework Sov and war dec system. ( I know they are in the process of eliminated Fozzy Sov and creating this new Aegis Sov should be interesting) 3.) Bring back low sec separation between empire space (older players from beta know what I'm talking about) 4.) Shift PvE content to player created content. * 5.) Rework corporation and Alliance structuring systems. 6.) Rework Faction war-fare system. All of those have been stated by players over and over again. Regardless the outside influences such as ageing veteran player base and mobile app gaming has had a massive impact on gaming in general. So has the creation of Free to play and Pay to win games. * If CCP created a way for a player corp to higher a NPC as a mission agent. Then some sort of form that they could fill out that would use the player corps wallet for mission rewards etc. It would add some change to the PvE side of the game. Lots of possibilities and then they wouldn't be forced to create content. They would need to set a team aside for content approval. like editors etc. to prevent copy right infringement and keep it clean. However I believe it would add more content to the game. Just look at all the content generators out side of the game. Just imagine if they could generate that content in game. Crazy possibilites.
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 414	Posted - 2016.07.18 22:10:49 - [44] - Quote But I like Fozziesov?
45thtiger 0109 AL3XAND3R. 170	Posted - 2016.07.19 01:53:10 - [45] - Quote Joia Crenca wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: About 70-80% of my recreational computer use is done via mobile devices now. Not saying that's the reason. It's way too complex an issue to assign a single reason. For me anyway, it is a contributor to less overall time in game. I still play daily, but not the same amount of time I used to. Hmmm... so if CCP came out with an EVE-tie-in that was a little like Pokemon Go, where we'd hunt each other based on coordinates given on our smart phones? Wait, Never Mind! Real life ganking doesn't allow for waking up in a clone bay! Don't do it, CCP!!! LOL Do it CCP You Have to take the good with the bad and the bad with the good. Welcome to EvE OnLiNe
45thtiger 0109 AL3XAND3R. 170	Posted - 2016.07.19 02:04:20 - [46] - Quote Elsia Browne wrote: Honestly there are a lot of reasons to the decline in the EVE player base. Just to list some, that CCP could potentially fix and possibly maintain a stable growth in the player base. 1.) Complete started projects such as walking in stations/citadels, and bounty system. 2.) Rework Sov and war dec system. ( I know they are in the process of eliminated Fozzy Sov and creating this new Aegis Sov should be interesting) 3.) Bring back low sec separation between empire space (older players from beta know what I'm talking about) 4.) Shift PvE content to player created content. * 5.) Rework corporation and Alliance structuring systems. 6.) Rework Faction war-fare system. All of those have been stated by players over and over again. Regardless the outside influences such as ageing veteran player base and mobile app gaming has had a massive impact on gaming in general. So has the creation of Free to play and Pay to win games. * If CCP created a way for a player corp to higher a NPC as a mission agent. Then some sort of form that they could fill out that would use the player corps wallet for mission rewards etc. It would add some change to the PvE side of the game. Lots of possibilities and then they wouldn't be forced to create content. They would need to set a team aside for content approval. like editors etc. to prevent copy right infringement and keep it clean. However I believe it would add more content to the game. Just look at all the content generators out side of the game. Just imagine if they could generate that content in game. Crazy possibilites. WIS has been squashed for years and I do not think CCP will bring WIS back. BTW I am a 10 year player and I still play eve. I do recall when CCP years ago did a mass clean up of those people who did the wrong thing by buying isk for real life money. CCP had to do something and after the clean up the amount of people dropped playing EvE as they all had their accounts banned. This happened 2 to 3 times this clean up happened and more people had been banned since then and the numbers have been a little slow. I know lots of people like F2P games if I am allowed to mention one game I do play it is Warframe. But I still like my EvE Online even if it is a 13 year old game. You Have to take the good with the bad and the bad with the good. Welcome to EvE OnLiNe
Lady Bug2 Viziam Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2016.07.19 03:23:00 - [47] - Quote Im a old returning play with two toons. I have played Eve for several years now and when I first started New Eden was a huge universe just begging to be explored. Deadspace complexes, worm holes, missions, planet mining, blueprints and constructing items needed by other players. And of course Null sec PVP. However, soon I discovered Eve seems to be more like a broken record of sorts with war being the center piece. The reason I say this is because Eve is advertised as a "Sand Box" Actions you take today affect game play tomorrow but it doesn't. And thats very disappointing. Example: You complete a mission and stick around to destroy the structures. Now this should have a visible affect on someone or something but it doesn't. You should even expect a physical altercation from the owners even if they are not real players. It affects your security standings but thats all. A very important point about being a more complete "Sand Box" is if I destroy a structure something should be affected. One side it should be easier to achieve something and the other should find that completing something becomes a struggle. But it affects nothing. In fact if you get the same mission a little later and return all the structures are back like nothing ever happened. Just like building a ship if I destroy any structure even in a mission it should take time for those structures to be replaced. I should be able to return to the site and find either the ruins of what I destroyed or some sort of rebuilding taking place. And of course a fight. But thats not what happens. One reason folks may be leaving is Eve really isn't a "Sand Box" with cause and effects. But rather a action without any reaction. If ccp would reconsider the Sand Box affect and better integrate cause and effect you might find a new player base and regenerate a greater interest in the older established players. Eve is old enough now instead of content ccp needs to focus in on integrations and cause and affect game play. Eve seems to lose its depth once you gain a understanding of the game. Give a reason for war and people will wage it. Better cause and affect within the game would add richness and a depth that seems to have been lost along the way and feed reasons for altercations large and small in both Null and high sec space. Eve would benefit from a deeper more integrated cause and effect. Even the market structure could stand to benefit from a better cause and affect. Good cause and effect with real consequences integrated into the game would lead to reasons to engage war in both High and Low sec space. Even simply integrating real player storylines into the news would help drive gameplay. Give me a real player that I can see what their actions have caused and give me a reason to engage them. Improve the sand box affect....
Brigadine Ferathine The Valiant Vanguard The Volition Cult 61	Posted - 2016.07.19 03:32:52 - [48] - Quote Joia Crenca wrote: Roenok Baalnorn wrote: Infinity Ziona wrote: Its a 13 year old game. Despite CCPs insistence that updates make it EvE not 13 years old it still is. Eve has had pretty much every part of it upgraded to new technology more than once. Its actually not really much different in terms of tech than other much newer space games ive played. That, and the gameplay remains very different than most other options out there. (If someone has experience with Star Citizen or No Man's Sky that can tell us differently, please do so.) I think SC will have a lot in common with eve. NMS is single player only so....
Kalpel KBM 131	Posted - 2016.07.19 06:32:47 - [49] - Quote Denavit wrote: Is is because PLEX prices, i remember buying them at 550mill, 500mill, now is almost 1bill, or is it because the changes are making oldSchoolers quit? Lack of content....... we've had the same lvl 4 missions since 2003, sure they added lvl 5's, but what solo player ( most mission runners) whats to go to low sec (toilet bowl of eve) in a shiny ship and get nuted in a mission or ganked on the way there? plus skilling in this game takes way way way tooooooooo long Yea yea they added the serp (grind) event ....... last thing any normal person wants to do is grind! You failed to target nothing! GëívGëí online ... (Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+
Brigadine Ferathine The Valiant Vanguard The Volition Cult 61	Posted - 2016.07.19 06:41:28 - [50] - Quote Kalpel wrote: Denavit wrote: Is is because PLEX prices, i remember buying them at 550mill, 500mill, now is almost 1bill, or is it because the changes are making oldSchoolers quit? Lack of content....... we've had the same lvl 4 missions since 2003, sure they added lvl 5's, but what solo player ( most mission runners) whats to go to low sec (toilet bowl of eve) in a shiny ship and get nuted in a mission or ganked on the way there? plus skilling in this game takes way way way tooooooooo long Yea yea they added the serp (grind) event ....... last thing any normal person wants to do is grind! The low sec missions are BS.
Daniel Blak Aliastra Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2016.07.19 13:17:26 - [51] - Quote I think the game lacks on mystery now. Everything is well documented. Every change is deeply discoursed and explained ahead. When I started playing in 2008 (or close) there was too many thing no one know for exactly. Aspects of the game that you have to talk to people to understand, or try by yourself. And a lot of thing was just suppositions. I remember that no one knew that hitting the scanner close to planets would reveal site to be explored. You had to go close to planet and scan, but most of time simply there was noting as a result. Who must keep trying... without any certain about what was you exactly doing. In this case, success feels much more rewarding. Most of new features now comes down to follow a documentation, just to check it's working as expected... I feel like a QA professional checking features ahead of publishing. No fun. No mystery, no need to talk to others, just go and do what is documented. For sure skill matter (real life skill i mean). But most of player are not going spend a lot of time to just master a predictable task. It's fun for few. There is no secret, you are not going to find anything unexpected. I just wonder how would be magic if WH was introduced without any sort of communication. Just imagine someone scanning and finding this "thing" without having a clue about... Would be a WTF moment for a lot of people. I'm not saying that CCP should not communicate changes at all. There are huge changes that affects huge operations and it's nice to have glimpse of what's going on. Like sovereignty changes, POS changes, ships change, and things like that. But CCP should always put a little amount of secret stuff, a little amount of unknown. Just imagine someone working in a site and discovering a new ship blueprint !!! I ship than no one knows existed. Doesn't matter what kind of ship. Could be a speeder shuttle... It's just for WOW moment. People are smart, soon or late someone will find out about secret things (it will be amazing cool for those). And after a while another one will write a tutorial in Internet and more people will find out. After a while a lot of people will know about that. And it becomes business as usual. But gave player a feel they can nor archive "following tutorials" Well, just my two cents. I really missing the mystery the game used to offer
Rek Seven Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 2252	Posted - 2016.07.19 14:04:48 - [52] - Quote Take out the players and EVE is a pretty dull game a - I think this is the fundamental issue. The majority of people probably only play this game for the social reasons or because they have been playing for so long that they feel they have invested too much to quit. For new players this game simply doesn't offer enough over other sci fi games. It's probably way past time that CCP start adding big new features instead of only improving existing parts of the game. The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Brigadine Ferathine The Valiant Vanguard The Volition Cult 61	Posted - 2016.07.19 18:54:18 - [53] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: Take out the players and EVE is a pretty dull game a - I think this is the fundamental issue. The majority of people probably only play this game for the social reasons or because they have been playing for so long that they feel they have invested too much to quit. For new players this game simply doesn't offer enough over other sci fi games. It's probably way past time that CCP start adding big new features instead of only improving existing parts of the game. I mean as someone who joined mid flight and has been retained on and off, this games biggest issues are its core systems that enforce being sociopaths. I agree bigger changes are needed, but big changes on existing things means near total replacement. Not saying this is the answer but I feel like they haven't done too much revisiting of existing things.
aldhura Bartledannians 71	Posted - 2016.07.19 19:43:11 - [54] - Quote There is no need for speculation on these things. When you cancel your account, you get asked why, and I am pretty sure CCP reads them and has decided that whatever those responses mount up to, they happy with the way the game is progressing. If I had to speculate based on those I speak to and leave, they are not comfortable in the current sandbox where you are forced to pvp, read all manner of crudeness in local, ganking, griefing, etc. They would rather spend their money and relax time elsewhere. If you only sell meat in your store, why would the vegetarians come in ?? My 2isk
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 242	Posted - 2016.07.19 19:55:21 - [55] - Quote 45thtiger 0109 wrote: WIS has been squashed for years and I do not think CCP will bring WIS back. If CCP had ever made WiS a meaningful part of EVE - people would suicide gank your implants inside the station 24/7. I've never understood why anybody ever actually wanted that...
Pandora Carrollon Kingsman Tailors 442	Posted - 2016.07.19 19:56:45 - [56] - Quote This is one of the most hilarious threads I've ever read. Everyone complaining about everything. CCP has NO CHANCE of making all you people happy. Let's hit some high points: CCP isn't providing enough content! CCP is too controlling! CCP changes the game too much and doesn't tell us! CCP tells us everything, there is no mystery! etc. etc. etc. Time to put on your big boy and big girl pants folks. You have the most advanced sandbox game I'm even aware of, and while I don't know all of the games out there, I haven't seen anything close to EVE in complexity and freedom. CCP could provide NO NEW content for a year and there would still be massive things you can do in the game. The issue here isn't CCP, it's you the player. Either you have literally done everything there is to do in EVE, or you have blocked off certain parts of the sandbox because you find them uninteresting. Regardless, the issue is still you. I am relatively new to this game and my read on it is that I have about 3-4 years of figuring stuff out and trying new things, so I'm not a grizzled vet that doesn't a closet full of "Been there, done that" T-Shirts. If I just described you, then maybe give EVE a break for a while if you're bored. There are about 3 good Space Sims that have just come out, try them. If I didn't describe you as a grizzled Vet, then you are more likely along the newer vein such as I am. If you are bored now, then I can't help you other than to give you a piece of advice: "Broaden your horizon and take control of your game of EVE." It's not CCP's job to mother hen you. Take the blinders off and go play somewhere else in the sandbox. You might just find yourself doing something new, unexpected, and fun. Be Positive GÇó Change yourself first, New Eden will come later GÇó EVE is Awesome GÇó CCP isn't the enemy GÇó Players are people too GÇó Where're the clothing blueprints GÇó Yeah, I'm still learning this game -- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
Dibz Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 81	Posted - 2016.07.19 20:08:36 - [57] - Quote People are becoming fatigued with the MMO genre. It grew when the internet was young and living in a virtual world with other people was a novel idea, enough by itself to draw people in, even if doing anything in the game took forever. Today virtual worlds are ten a penny, the novelty is gone and people want more in return for their time spent playing a game. EVE has a very bad fun-per-hour ratio compared to other games.
Johan Civire Caldari Provisions Caldari State 1107	Posted - 2016.07.19 20:42:27 - [58] - Quote Well the reason is pokemon go
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26330	Posted - 2016.07.19 22:03:27 - [59] - Quote aldhura wrote: If you only sell meat in your store, why would the vegetarians come in ?? To tell you that meat is murder and that you're a bad person for selling it Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Caleb Seremshur The Atomic Fallout Kids 826	Posted - 2016.07.20 04:44:07 - [60] - Quote Johan Civire wrote: Well the reason is pokemon go A pretty damning condemnation of your product and/or service if Pokemon-Go has more pulling power over your own customer base than you do. I've done the old double-dip unsub. Unsubbed, WWB happened, resubbed, realised I was still burnt out, unsubbed again. Why? It's tired. The game is tired. It actively fatigues me to play it.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 16911	Posted - 2016.07.20 04:51:38 - [61] - Quote Caleb Seremshur wrote: Johan Civire wrote: Well the reason is pokemon go A pretty damning condemnation of your product and/or service if Pokemon-Go has more pulling power over your own customer base than you do. I've done the old double-dip unsub. Unsubbed, WWB happened, resubbed, realised I was still burnt out, unsubbed again. Why? It's tired. The game is tired. It actively fatigues me to play it. People have been shot at over pokemongo, its digital darwinisim. Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 420	Posted - 2016.07.20 05:54:47 - [62] - Quote We need more applied Darwinism. Lots and lots.
Rek Seven Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 2254	Posted - 2016.07.20 08:21:40 - [63] - Quote Pandora Carrollon wrote: The issue here isn't CCP, it's you the player. Either you have literally done everything there is to do in EVE, or you have blocked off certain parts of the sandbox because you find them uninteresting. Regardless, the issue is still you. Yeah it's like when you go out for diner and your food tastes disgusting - it is not the foods fault. We are the ones with the taste buds so we are the ones to blame... Right?? The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Noah Reese 24	Posted - 2016.07.20 10:16:16 - [64] - Quote CCP aimed for a more mainstream game with better palatable game mechanics appealing to a broader audience. This resulted in more people who didn't necessarily agree too much to the EVE values "of old" so they kept joining massive coalitions or kept to themselves otherwise, mostly forms of pve grind. What EVE needs are content creators and initiators. These are sorely lacking because the old guard is either bored, burnt out or decided that this isn't "their" EVE anymore and simply stopped bothering. The newer players lack the drive for this because of the above mentioned reasons. It's been going on for a long while and people, me included, have been stating for years now that this was bound to happen. The question is ofc course which route will end up being best for EVE, of that I'm not sure.
Caleb Seremshur The Atomic Fallout Kids 826	Posted - 2016.07.20 10:42:49 - [65] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: Pandora Carrollon wrote: The issue here isn't CCP, it's you the player. Either you have literally done everything there is to do in EVE, or you have blocked off certain parts of the sandbox because you find them uninteresting. Regardless, the issue is still you. Yeah it's like when you go out for dinner and your food tastes disgusting - it is not the foods fault. We are the ones with the taste buds so we are the ones to blame... Right?? All games get dull over time, that is to be expected. Eve takes about 1-2 years before you fully understand the game and decide what you do and don't like. After that point the question is whether the things you do like are enough to keep you coming back for more. EVE is a very interesting game when you look at it as a whole but for a game that is all about spaceships it's pretty weak. It's supposed to be a futuristic space ship game but all you do is push buttons, unlike other games such as Elite dangerous, war thunder, etc where the actual flying of your craft can be exhilarating. I still play runescape... been playing that since 2003.
Towron Paboo School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 0	Posted - 2016.07.20 11:05:43 - [66] - Quote I started two month ago...and now I will quit again. Reason is, that I get killed over and over again in high-sec while mining some minerals and afterwards getting mails that press charges. As long as a game says that it is legal to kill newbies while they try to find out how the game works. I won't pay for something like that...sandbox or not...there should be an area where I am save, especially as a newbie. So you won't get new players when most of them make such an anoying experience. Have fun.
CowQueen MMXII 52	Posted - 2016.07.20 11:13:34 - [67] - Quote Yun Kuai wrote: In my own personal opinion, I feel there are 4 main reaons why the player count is no longer at the 45k average and peaking in the 60k numbers about 5 years ago. 1) The biggest problem area is that in my almost 8 of years of playing, the game's core mechanics (read pve) are almost exactly the same as when I started. That means 8 years of grinding the same anoms, the same missions, the same mining, the same industry, the same incursions, etc. 2) The inflation factor has a big turn of for a lot of people; i.e. too much work for to little reward. I remember when PLEX were first introduced and sat around 300mil. At the time those were still considered quite expensive, especially when you could buy a dominix hull for 50mil. That meant I could rat in a haven for 30mins each day and have enough isk to lose a BS doing silly stuff or I could buy a hand full of BCs, dozens of cruisers, etc. I had a lot more fun because I had a lot of time to actually go pew pew. 3) Cookie cutter class changes also took a lot of fun out flying different ships. Almost all hulls now follow 1-2 standard fits as nothing else really fits anymore. All of the ships lost a lot of their faction's uniqueness during tiericde and it suddenly became pretty much similar ships using slightly different weapon systems. 4) Nullsec decay and blue donoughts lead to a large number of people quitting the game as CCP dragged their feet years too long to change the nullsec mechanics. The new sov at least gets people actively playing again, but there's still room for improvement even if it was too little too late. 5)* I won't classify this one as a major issue but I feel with all of the 3rd party sites that monitor everything I feel like the game, espeically nullsec is no longer wild and dangerous. Too many areas are mapped down to the most minute details and have lost the appeal since there's nothing left to discover. More emergent gameplay that can't be calculated down to an exact science; read random generator, would be good for the game as it would add some much needed "newess" for everyone. Moo! Uddersucker, moo!
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 250	Posted - 2016.07.20 11:17:29 - [68] - Quote Towron Paboo wrote: I started two month ago...and now I will quit again. Reason is, that I get killed over and over again in high-sec while mining some minerals and afterwards getting mails that press charges. As long as a game says that it is legal to kill newbies while they try to find out how the game works. I won't pay for something like that...sandbox or not...there should be an area where I am save, especially as a newbie. So you won't get new players when most of them make such an anoying experience. Have fun. As an actual new player (up to 1 month old per CCP I believe) - you are safe in the rookie systems designated by CCP - but yeah there is nothing worth mining in them, and they get mined out fast every day, so you probably weren't in one. You could also try learning how to fit a tank onto your ship, or just try something other than mining...
Tao Dolcino EVE University Ivy League 548	Posted - 2016.07.20 12:00:46 - [69] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: or just try something other than mining... Yes, but it's not a solution : someone has to mine, at the end, so his point is valid. It's a bit the same than when a new pilot says : earning ISK is difficult with mining, and a vet answers : "don't bother, mate, just buy a PLEX and sell it for ISK". How often i read that kind of sentences from vets. "mining is not worth it, give up". Then who will mine the ore we all need ? Mining and missions are the two main ways to start making ISK in EVE, and new players are always told that these activities are not "noble", (but ganking noob miners is noble ) All what you vets have to propose to the new players is : pay to win. Buy PLEX with real money, sell it, so you don't have to work hard for your ISK. Then where is the sense of accomplishment ? Why mining the hard way is carebear, and pay to win gankers are hardcore ? Isn't there something hypocrite in all that ? I understand very well why new miners leave EVE. CCP 2015 : "Fluff is good"
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 421	Posted - 2016.07.20 12:07:33 - [70] - Quote Towron Paboo wrote: As long as a game says that it is legal to kill newbies while they try to find out how the game works. I won't pay for something like that...sandbox or not...there should be an area where I am save, especially as a newbie. But you were so close! You already found out an important part of how the game works: there is no area where you're safe.
Caleb Seremshur The Atomic Fallout Kids 826	Posted - 2016.07.20 12:19:06 - [71] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Towron Paboo wrote: As long as a game says that it is legal to kill newbies while they try to find out how the game works. I won't pay for something like that...sandbox or not...there should be an area where I am save, especially as a newbie. But you were so close! You already found out an important part of how the game works: there is no area where you're safe. Well they newbie systems are safe zones kind of so that's one myth debunked straight away.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 252	Posted - 2016.07.20 12:20:28 - [72] - Quote Tao Dolcino wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: or just try something other than mining... Yes, but it's not a solution : someone has to mine, at the end, so his point is valid. It's a bit the same than when a new pilot says : earning ISK is difficult with mining, and a vet answers : "don't bother, mate, just buy a PLEX and sell it for ISK". How often i read that kind of sentences from vets. "mining is not worth it, give up". Then who will mine the ore we all need ? Mining and missions are the two main ways to start making ISK in EVE, and new players are always told that these activities are not "noble", (but ganking noob miners is noble ) All what you vets have to propose to the new players is : pay to win. Buy PLEX with real money, sell it, so you don't have to work hard for your ISK. Then where is the sense of accomplishment ? Why mining the hard way is carebear, and pay to win gankers are hardcore ? Isn't there something hypocrite in all that ? I understand very well why new miners leave EVE. I have never recommended buying plex to anybody - but then I'm against micro-transactions in general. I advocate their getting into missions starting out - particularly the rookie missions that give them a big boost in isk/skills/equipment. People will always mine - and if they are smart they'll find the profitable areas to do it and learn to defend themselves in their chosen home. **** I didn't even tell him not to mine - I gave him 2 options. Learn to protect himself or do something else. Why are you all so eager to take offence? One would think you felt guilty about your chosen profession of mining...Seriously, stop being so defensive. PS: I'm not saying ganking miners is noble. I'm not a part of CODE, and I have no interest in that style of play. But they are part of the game - so burying your head in the sand and pretending gankers don't exist is just stupid.
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 421	Posted - 2016.07.20 12:21:36 - [73] - Quote Caleb Seremshur wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Towron Paboo wrote: As long as a game says that it is legal to kill newbies while they try to find out how the game works. I won't pay for something like that...sandbox or not...there should be an area where I am save, especially as a newbie. But you were so close! You already found out an important part of how the game works: there is no area where you're safe. Well they newbie systems are safe zones kind of so that's one myth debunked straight away. They are not. You can perfectly shoot a vet on the undock of Pator Tech school. Just can't grief the new players there. Consider the myth bunked again ;-)
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 252	Posted - 2016.07.20 12:32:28 - [74] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Caleb Seremshur wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Towron Paboo wrote: As long as a game says that it is legal to kill newbies while they try to find out how the game works. I won't pay for something like that...sandbox or not...there should be an area where I am save, especially as a newbie. But you were so close! You already found out an important part of how the game works: there is no area where you're safe. Well they newbie systems are safe zones kind of so that's one myth debunked straight away. They are not. You can perfectly shoot a vet on the undock of Pator Tech school. Just can't grief the new players there. Consider the myth bunked again ;-) TBH I kind of miss the days when CCP didn't enforce their rules on rookie griefing. I got a lot of my early PvP experience counter-baiting the people picking on new players in those systems....I think my record was about 150 in a single month. Seriously, they were almost as bad as the new players they were picking on - and oh so much more satisfying. In any case, as I say, the official CCP line in the sand is 1 month of age or less in such systems is protected - anything over 30 days and you are fair game even there.
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 421	Posted - 2016.07.20 12:52:05 - [75] - Quote To be fair, I too ragequit like ... (can't remember lol- too long ago. 2007? 2008?), and started over two years ago on this toon. That first month can be a real bad experience if you don't stumble by coincidence upon the right people to help you along. Is this why allegedly subs are down? I don't think so. There is more information available now than ever before, and most folks really are willing to help. Some of them just don't want to hear it though. How many Ventures / Retrievers do you have to lose before you think "hmm... maybe this Catalyst is not my friend?", before you think "before I let the dog out, maybe I should dock up and not be AFK in space?" At some point, eventually, a wreck has to be produced to get the point across.
Crinnfika Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 19	Posted - 2016.07.20 13:14:54 - [76] - Quote The biggest problem is that EvE has basically no marketing presence outside of its own community. When I tell some of my other gaming friends that I play EvE I one of two responses: "What's Eve?" or "Wait Eve still exists?" Right now youtube is the closest thing Eve has to marketing, and Eve makes terrible youtube videos. (yay colored dots everywhere!)
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 252	Posted - 2016.07.20 13:19:58 - [77] - Quote Crinnfika wrote: The biggest problem is... Perhaps the biggest problem is that so many EVE players are so eager to tell CCP what the "biggest" problem is - and 1000 players will provide 1000 different problems - all 100% sure that theirs is the "biggest" one.....
Pres Crendraven 43	Posted - 2016.07.20 13:30:48 - [78] - Quote Its been several years, I'm back for a couple months, maybe. In a word it was Nerfs that drove me out but its more complicated and has to do with the skill que. I thought I had signed a hidden contract with CCP that if I stayed long, paid my dues and set alarms to wake up in the middle of the night that I too would be able to fly a few awesome OP ships like the ones used to blow me out of the sky. But every time I would train up to the ship of my dreams they would nerf it and I would have to start down a new path. This is my new toon. I trained him to be an average frigate pilot. His skill que is empty and will stay that way. But I came back and even his Tristan got stripped of his rocket launcher. Come here ***** CCP, come and take my light ion blasters. Who could believe they would have to nerf rockets. comeon, it was 9 dps. You got 15 bucks, go buy a beer. It was a bad decision in 07 a good decision in 12 and another bad one in 16. Oh yeah mining? Minecraft is fun, I got an OP pick, come and try to get it. Meta34me** Corp and Alliance details hidden to protect the innocent.
Noah Reese 24	Posted - 2016.07.20 13:57:16 - [79] - Quote Crinnfika wrote: The biggest problem is that EvE has basically no marketing presence outside of its own community. When I tell some of my other gaming friends that I play EvE I one of two responses: "What's Eve?" or "Wait Eve still exists?" Right now youtube is the closest thing Eve has to marketing, and Eve makes terrible youtube videos. (yay colored dots everywhere!) Just today I spoke to a new coworker, a 40something gamer like me. He's played lots of shooters, a few MMOs and a bunch of coop games and whatnot but he had never heard of EVE.
Josef Djugashvilis 3447	Posted - 2016.07.20 15:02:35 - [80] - Quote I play less now, not directly because of 'cash for skills' but over time the niggles build up and I seem to find other things to do, whereas previously it was a case of, 'great I have a couple of hours to kill, I'll log in and do something'. Mostly the daft things CCP come up with, 'loot spew' for example are balanced by the good things, but, and maybe it's just me, 'cash for skills' seems to be an an irreversible step in the wrong direction. My annual sub is due shortly and I shall renew it. I have been playing Eve for too long to give up on it easily. This is not a signature.
Toobo Project Fruit House Solyaris Chtonium 25	Posted - 2016.07.20 15:08:55 - [81] - Quote While I will not argue against mobile phones usage taking over the share of PC for recreational use, for eve players who are really (still) into the whole thing this actually made EVE more engaging and accessible than ever. People are using Slack & Reddit from their phone to stay in touch with eve community even when they have no access to PC. Nice/lol Kill mails/screenshots are shared instantly over slack/imgur link. There are tools (both on android & iphone) to make skill queue plans and even try ship fits on your smart phone. You can check your trade account's wallet transactions & industry jobs, contracts status, etc. Going beyond the dedicated apps for EVE, it's very easy to use things like google docs to share industry plans and there are accessible online database/resources you can reach wherever you are. Heck, you can even 'make ISK' by gambling on sites like iwantisk or EVE Bet from your phone (hitting Jackpots while laying on bed with a phone rocks lol) I spend MUCH less time logged in game now, but I'm more engaged with the game world and community than ever before. Me and corp mates share industry plans & have shared documents to check for materials in stock/in need/in courier, etc. We can track our assets & easily analyse trade activities using tracking tools. While I'm on a train, or sitting on a bus, or have a few minutes waiting around here and there, I spend great deal of time doing/checking eve related stuff on my phone, and keep up to date with alliance stuff on slack. So yes, general public may be more inclined towards playing games on smart phones now, but for those who have love for this game have adapted the new technologies & use it to be engaged with the game even more than before. Toobo is a lucky talisman. Try Toobo's lucky referral link at the awesome iwantisk website and have a great time http://www.iwantisk.com/?ref=1216023697 Remeber - you win by luck and lose by luck. Don't go crazy. ;)
perpetua Isimazu Perkone Caldari State 1	Posted - 2016.07.20 16:21:17 - [82] - Quote Another reason for the drop off in active logins could be the decision to 'outlaw' the use of isboxer. Folk could and did run multiple accounts simultaneously, adding to the active login numbers. Managing multiple characters manually is a lot more difficult than when using aids such as isboxer, so perhaps a lot of those 'extra' accounts are now dormant, had the toons sold off or 'stripped' of skills?
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4972	Posted - 2016.07.20 18:03:37 - [83] - Quote Kalpel wrote: Denavit wrote: Is is because PLEX prices, i remember buying them at 550mill, 500mill, now is almost 1bill, or is it because the changes are making oldSchoolers quit? Lack of content....... we've had the same lvl 4 missions since 2003, sure they added lvl 5's, but what solo player ( most mission runners) whats to go to low sec (toilet bowl of eve) in a shiny ship and get nuted in a mission or ganked on the way there? plus skilling in this game takes way way way tooooooooo long Yea yea they added the serp (grind) event ....... last thing any normal person wants to do is grind! Yes, it is because solo players are leaving. No. Just no. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13783	Posted - 2016.07.20 18:21:25 - [84] - Quote You can see people tried the game in timespan of many years, some stayed, some not, some have had enough of it. Game stayed mainly the same all these years. There was no breakthrough in the way it can be played for new demoghraphics and different kinds of gamers, with lack of avatar gameplay being the main reason why there are less new faces around. RSI grabbed attention and 100 M $, for "crowdsourced AAA game". I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4972	Posted - 2016.07.20 18:52:28 - [85] - Quote perpetua Isimazu wrote: Another reason for the drop off in active logins could be the decision to 'outlaw' the use of isboxer. Folk could and did run multiple accounts simultaneously, adding to the active login numbers. Managing multiple characters manually is a lot more difficult than when using aids such as isboxer, so perhaps a lot of those 'extra' accounts are now dormant, had the toons sold off or 'stripped' of skills? Sure, but not a downward trend. No...there is something else at work, maybe several things. People moving on to other games. The game itself changing. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4972	Posted - 2016.07.20 18:56:54 - [86] - Quote Towron Paboo wrote: I started two month ago...and now I will quit again. Reason is, that I get killed over and over again in high-sec while mining some minerals and afterwards getting mails that press charges. As long as a game says that it is legal to kill newbies while they try to find out how the game works. I won't pay for something like that...sandbox or not...there should be an area where I am save, especially as a newbie. So you won't get new players when most of them make such an anoying experience. Have fun. Players like you whined and whined about ganking. CCP changed things...and those who ganked adapted. Now you have specialized groups for ganking and yeah, you get blown up alot. You got exactly what you asked for, IMO. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Thomas Meagher Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 0	Posted - 2016.07.20 19:02:42 - [87] - Quote For me there are 2 types of games (generally speaking, sometimes the lines are blurred.. but remember, this is PERSONAL for ME) 1) Competitive - I play these games to get my competitive juices going! Planetside 2, Counter-Strike: Source, WoW PvP. There is great joy in "outplaying" your opponents, and the skill required to be top level at the games is very very hard to achieve and very little people ever actually achieve that level of dominance. 2) Chill - These are non competitive, low level skill based games. I'm talking FFX, single player Total War campaigns on easy, and a game like Super Mario Galaxy. The problem with Eve for ME PERSONALLY, is that is doesn't do either of these things very well. The battle system in Eve online is extremely boring, you lock targets and activate appropriate weapons / modules. Not very exciting just doing such a simple task. The cut scenes show space ships RACING through space at high speeds shooting and doing amazing maneuvers... but when you actually get to playing PvP, it's nothing like you imagined it before you played the game. It's a big let down really... The chill part is what I like more about eve, but even than, the line between chill/boring is very slim. When I first looked at the map, I was awe struck. "Wow, what an AMAZING universe! It's so expansive! I can't wait to travel through the lands." This was me on day 1 playing Eve. Than I realized 1 into my game session.... Every galaxy is basically the same, and that giant map I was impressed about.... Well, it seemed a lot less impressive when you realize every system is basically the exact same. They didnt even design the world that much, apparently they just let RNG computer design the systems. Cant blame them, cause there are so many systems.... I guess you cant choose how to design every single one... My point though, Eve online players like to brag about how big their world is, but it really is just recycled like crazy. When you look at a game like The Elder Scrolls: Skyrim, or even Final Fantasy Games. You look at the map, and it isn't expansive as the Eve map, but every location is unique and had time and energy into crafting that piece of the world. It really has nothing to do with the players... Eve online players like to brag how their players are elite gamers and such... I mean every big games player base is pretty similar with MMOs. Basically, before I played eve online, everyone who played the game who would post on online forums about the game would go on about how it's the deepest and best game ever... I would say this game is one of the most over hyped games on the market. That is why so many people try the trial, but keeping people after the trial is the hard part.
Brigadine Ferathine The Valiant Vanguard The Volition Cult 62	Posted - 2016.07.20 19:07:26 - [88] - Quote perpetua Isimazu wrote: Another reason for the drop off in active logins could be the decision to 'outlaw' the use of isboxer. Folk could and did run multiple accounts simultaneously, adding to the active login numbers. Managing multiple characters manually is a lot more difficult than when using aids such as isboxer, so perhaps a lot of those 'extra' accounts are now dormant, had the toons sold off or 'stripped' of skills? meh, that was over a year ago now. Doubt it is still causing more decreases. The people who quit due to ISbotter being banned are already long gone. Doesn't account for the last month.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4972	Posted - 2016.07.20 19:16:21 - [89] - Quote Tao Dolcino wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: or just try something other than mining... Yes, but it's not a solution : someone has to mine, at the end, so his point is valid. It's a bit the same than when a new pilot says : earning ISK is difficult with mining, and a vet answers : "don't bother, mate, just buy a PLEX and sell it for ISK". How often i read that kind of sentences from vets. "mining is not worth it, give up". You do know there is this thing called Dotlan right? You can go there and look at things like security of a system, number of kills and number of asteroid belts. You can find a good place to mine where you are less likely to be attacked. Also, the days of mining and not paying attention are over. You should set CODE. and other gankers red. Move local to its own dedicated spot on the UI and keep an eye on it. In fact, you might want to consider moving to NS. CODE. has brought a taste of NS to HS. In NS you have to watch for hostiles. You'll get better ore as well. Yes, you'll have to go out with whatever alliance/corporation you join and defend your space/go on deployments, but hey event that can be fun. In fact, it is more fun than just grinding down rocks, IMO. Quote: Then who will mine the ore we all need ? Mining and missions are the two main ways to start making ISK in EVE, and new players are always told that these activities are not "noble", (but ganking noob miners is noble ) All what you vets have to propose to the new players is : pay to win. Buy PLEX with real money, sell it, so you don't have to work hard for your ISK. Then where is the sense of accomplishment ? Why mining the hard way is carebear, and pay to win gankers are hardcore ? Isn't there something hypocrite in all that ? I understand very well why new miners leave EVE. If you feel a sense of acomplishment mining out an astroid....well you have a low bar, IMO. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Tao Dolcino EVE University Ivy League 548	Posted - 2016.07.20 19:39:19 - [90] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Tao Dolcino wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: or just try something other than mining... Yes, but it's not a solution : someone has to mine, at the end, so his point is valid. It's a bit the same than when a new pilot says : earning ISK is difficult with mining, and a vet answers : "don't bother, mate, just buy a PLEX and sell it for ISK". How often i read that kind of sentences from vets. "mining is not worth it, give up". You do know there is this thing called Dotlan right? You can go there and look at things like security of a system, number of kills and number of asteroid belts. You can find a good place to mine where you are less likely to be attacked. Also, the days of mining and not paying attention are over. You should set CODE. and other gankers red. Move local to its own dedicated spot on the UI and keep an eye on it. In fact, you might want to consider moving to NS. CODE. has brought a taste of NS to HS. In NS you have to watch for hostiles. You'll get better ore as well. Yes, you'll have to go out with whatever alliance/corporation you join and defend your space/go on deployments, but hey event that can be fun. In fact, it is more fun than just grinding down rocks, IMO. Quote: Then who will mine the ore we all need ? Mining and missions are the two main ways to start making ISK in EVE, and new players are always told that these activities are not "noble", (but ganking noob miners is noble ) All what you vets have to propose to the new players is : pay to win. Buy PLEX with real money, sell it, so you don't have to work hard for your ISK. Then where is the sense of accomplishment ? Why mining the hard way is carebear, and pay to win gankers are hardcore ? Isn't there something hypocrite in all that ? I understand very well why new miners leave EVE. If you feel a sense of acomplishment mining out an astroid....well you have a low bar, IMO. CCP 2015 : "Fluff is good"
Pandora Carrollon Kingsman Tailors 460	Posted - 2016.07.20 19:44:54 - [91] - Quote Thomas Meagher wrote: ... The problem with Eve for ME PERSONALLY, is that is doesn't do either of these things very well. The battle system in Eve online is extremely boring, you lock targets and activate appropriate weapons / modules. Not very exciting just doing such a simple task. The cut scenes show space ships RACING through space at high speeds shooting and doing amazing maneuvers... but when you actually get to playing PvP, it's nothing like you imagined it before you played the game. It's a big let down really... I might be able to help you here Thomas. The drawback you are talking about is really an interface one. People are actually very lazy pilots in EVE. They set Orbit or Keep at Range and it's somewhat boring. Me, I'm a long range shooter so I need to be stable to hit small targets at long distances so my general speed in space is 0 m/s. Super boring when flying is your thing. However, that's little different than I am in WoW. A hunter that sends their pet and shoots from a single spot (when convenient) against a target. So, my style really doesn't vary and boring to a real pilot/mover. I'd suggest you actually pilot your ship. I've been doing this more and more, manually flying my ship in relation to targets. My latest thing is to 'gather' all my targets together by zipping around and getting them roughly in a 10km bubble then flying to keep them at an optimal medium range for my T2 Rails. I'm not setting Orbit or Keep at Range, I'm actually using the arrow keys to fly the ship... and it works. It's more work than just Orbit or KaR, but it's more fun, challenging and I take out my targets faster without all the target changing and Orbit/KaR commands. Try it, see if it helps you have a bit more fun. Be Positive GÇó Change yourself first, New Eden will come later GÇó EVE is Awesome GÇó CCP isn't the enemy GÇó Players are people too GÇó Where're the clothing blueprints GÇó Yeah, I'm still learning this game -- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13783	Posted - 2016.07.20 20:04:12 - [92] - Quote Pandora Carrollon wrote: Thomas Meagher wrote: ... The problem with Eve for ME PERSONALLY, is that is doesn't do either of these things very well. The battle system in Eve online is extremely boring, you lock targets and activate appropriate weapons / modules. Not very exciting just doing such a simple task. The cut scenes show space ships RACING through space at high speeds shooting and doing amazing maneuvers... but when you actually get to playing PvP, it's nothing like you imagined it before you played the game. It's a big let down really... I might be able to help you here Thomas. The drawback you are talking about is really an interface one. People are actually very lazy pilots in EVE. They set Orbit or Keep at Range and it's somewhat boring. Me, I'm a long range shooter so I need to be stable to hit small targets at long distances so my general speed in space is 0 m/s. Super boring when flying is your thing. However, that's little different than I am in WoW. A hunter that sends their pet and shoots from a single spot (when convenient) against a target. So, my style really doesn't vary and boring to a real pilot/mover. I'd suggest you actually pilot your ship. I've been doing this more and more, manually flying my ship in relation to targets. My latest thing is to 'gather' all my targets together by zipping around and getting them roughly in a 10km bubble then flying to keep them at an optimal medium range for my T2 Rails. I'm not setting Orbit or Keep at Range, I'm actually using the arrow keys to fly the ship... and it works. It's more work than just Orbit or KaR, but it's more fun, challenging and I take out my targets faster without all the target changing and Orbit/KaR commands. Try it, see if it helps you have a bit more fun. Maybe its matter of preferences, but I always liked to treat my shield tanked capstable missile shooting battleships like a stationary battlestations really, and I never thought about doing missions any other way, it was the most efficient way for me back when I have done missions. And I had time to watch Dr Who series simultanously. High sec is still fairly chill, low sec is action. Its more about pace of things and dangers than the combat itself. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Brigadine Ferathine The Valiant Vanguard The Volition Cult 63	Posted - 2016.07.20 20:09:48 - [93] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Pandora Carrollon wrote: Thomas Meagher wrote: ... The problem with Eve for ME PERSONALLY, is that is doesn't do either of these things very well. The battle system in Eve online is extremely boring, you lock targets and activate appropriate weapons / modules. Not very exciting just doing such a simple task. The cut scenes show space ships RACING through space at high speeds shooting and doing amazing maneuvers... but when you actually get to playing PvP, it's nothing like you imagined it before you played the game. It's a big let down really... I might be able to help you here Thomas. The drawback you are talking about is really an interface one. People are actually very lazy pilots in EVE. They set Orbit or Keep at Range and it's somewhat boring. Me, I'm a long range shooter so I need to be stable to hit small targets at long distances so my general speed in space is 0 m/s. Super boring when flying is your thing. However, that's little different than I am in WoW. A hunter that sends their pet and shoots from a single spot (when convenient) against a target. So, my style really doesn't vary and boring to a real pilot/mover. I'd suggest you actually pilot your ship. I've been doing this more and more, manually flying my ship in relation to targets. My latest thing is to 'gather' all my targets together by zipping around and getting them roughly in a 10km bubble then flying to keep them at an optimal medium range for my T2 Rails. I'm not setting Orbit or Keep at Range, I'm actually using the arrow keys to fly the ship... and it works. It's more work than just Orbit or KaR, but it's more fun, challenging and I take out my targets faster without all the target changing and Orbit/KaR commands. Try it, see if it helps you have a bit more fun. Maybe its matter of preferences, but I always liked to treat my shield tanked capstable battleships like a stationary battlestations really, and I never thought about doing missions any other way, it was the most efficient way back when I have done missions. And I had time to watch Dr Who series simultanously. High sec is still fairly chill, low sec is action. Its more about pace of things and dangers than the combat itself. Low sec is more chaotic than most of null sec.
Crinnfika Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 19	Posted - 2016.07.20 20:17:57 - [94] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Crinnfika wrote: The biggest problem is... Perhaps the biggest problem is that so many EVE players are so eager to tell CCP what the "biggest" problem is - and 1000 players will provide 1000 different problems - all 100% sure that theirs is the "biggest" one..... yes and? My statement is still true. Eve has pretty much non-existence marketing and is largely unknown outside of it's own playerbase. Without new blood the game will invariably die over time. This is how the world works.
Brigadine Ferathine The Valiant Vanguard The Volition Cult 63	Posted - 2016.07.20 20:25:45 - [95] - Quote Crinnfika wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Crinnfika wrote: The biggest problem is... Perhaps the biggest problem is that so many EVE players are so eager to tell CCP what the "biggest" problem is - and 1000 players will provide 1000 different problems - all 100% sure that theirs is the "biggest" one..... yes and? My statement is still true. Eve has pretty much non-existence marketing and is largely unknown outside of it's own playerbase. Without new blood the game will invariably die over time. This is how the world works. I see adds in my browser all the time.
Crinnfika Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 19	Posted - 2016.07.20 20:32:10 - [96] - Quote Brigadine Ferathine wrote: I see adds in my browser all the time. You see google ads. You get those Eve google adds because google sees "eve ccp and space things" in your browsing history. Go get a clean IP that hasn't accessed lots of Eve websites and see how many of those adds you get. hint: you won't get any Granted this is more of a issue with google ads than ccp, as google ads tends to only give you ads to game you already play or played in the past.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 255	Posted - 2016.07.20 20:46:54 - [97] - Quote Crinnfika wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Crinnfika wrote: The biggest problem is... Perhaps the biggest problem is that so many EVE players are so eager to tell CCP what the "biggest" problem is - and 1000 players will provide 1000 different problems - all 100% sure that theirs is the "biggest" one..... yes and? My statement is still true. Eve has pretty much non-existence marketing and is largely unknown outside of it's own playerbase. Without new blood the game will invariably die over time. This is how the world works. EVE has a lot of problems. I'm not disagreeing that is one of them...but I don't think it is "The Biggest Problem" in all of EVE... I thought I was pretty clear about that...
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26335	Posted - 2016.07.20 20:49:32 - [98] - Quote Crinnfika wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Crinnfika wrote: The biggest problem is... Perhaps the biggest problem is that so many EVE players are so eager to tell CCP what the "biggest" problem is - and 1000 players will provide 1000 different problems - all 100% sure that theirs is the "biggest" one..... yes and? My statement is still true. Eve has pretty much non-existence marketing and is largely unknown outside of it's own playerbase. Without new blood the game will invariably die over time. This is how the world works. Incorrect, Eve does have marketing but CCP choose to let us do most of it for them. Eve is actually fairly well known to most of the gaming demographic, it regularly appears in the gaming press and is one of the few games that produces stories that makes the mainstream news outlets too; what is does have is a reputation problem, but that comes from the nature of the game itself. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Roenok Baalnorn Sadistically Sinister 233	Posted - 2016.07.20 21:04:12 - [99] - Quote Quote: WoW PvP. There is great joy in "outplaying" your opponents, and the skill required to be top level at the games is very very hard to achieve and very little people ever actually achieve that level of dominance. Having played WoW to see what all the hype was about a few years ago, I can tell you the pvp system in WoW is lol. You have special pvp only gear. That gives players that wear it a huge advantage. If you win battlegrounds is pretty much based on if your side has the better gear or the other side. There is no balance at all to the gear as you level or from one set to the next at the same level. And open world pvp is just as terrible. The skill system is almost completely linear and the only thing to do is to grind raids and battlegrounds for better gear all day. Quote: The chill part is what I like more about eve, but even than, the line between chill/boring is very slim. When I first looked at the map, I was awe struck. "Wow, what an AMAZING universe! It's so expansive! I can't wait to travel through the lands." This was me on day 1 playing Eve. Despite you controlling a single ship, eve is more of a strategy combat game than a shoot up style. Eve is also a sandbox. It is was you make of it. There is no set gameplay or purpose like most games. Your not the hero on some predetermined path. Your just a guy and his ship and the rest is up to you. Many people who are use to scripted games where you follow a story line cant get there head around eve. What do you do in this game? Where do i go? Whatever you want. I dont understand? Some direction? What am i suppose to be doing? Whatever you want to do. I just dont understand how to play this game or what im suppose to be doing!!!! Some people cannot wrap their head around an open sandbox concept and creating their own content. They are use to doing the reactions rather than the actions. They are use to someone telling them you need to go here, find that item, kill that npc, etc. I love sandbox RTS games and thus eve really resonated with me. Quote: I would say this game is one of the most over hyped games on the market. That is why so many people try the trial, but keeping people after the trial is the hard part. Eve is a game you have to give a decent chance too. Honestly 14 days isnt enough of a trial. My friend from another game who started playing it about 6 months before i did kept prodding me into sticking with it those first couple of months. "Dude, you will love it im telling you. Just stick with it a couple of months until you get some decent training under your belt and it will get a lot better. " I stuck with it and as i could do more and things became easier and i knew the basics of the game, i loved it just like he said. That was almost a decade ago. If this game is so boring, so over hyped why are their so many players that stick around for years? Ive never found another game MMO or otherwise that i played for more than a couple of years.. except eve. And their are a lot of players that been playing a lot longer than me that still play today. I mean if we started in our 20s, we would be pushing 40s now. Thats a long time to play a single game. All games have a high amount of newbies that dont stick with the game. Because people are looking for something they like. For example i mentioned wow earlier. I player wow for maybe 14 months and i got bored of it. I started in cataclysm and was done with the introduction of kung fu pandas. I do like medieval style games, so i tried what many called a wow clone "Rift" I thought rift was a lot better game than WoW and played it on and off about 2 years. My problem with Rift was the social aspect didnt resonate with me. It just seemed really solo most of the time. Eve has a steep learning curve and starts out hard and gets easier as you go. In eve you have to entertain yourself using tools provided for you in the game. Thats a lot more difficult in the beginning because you have a very limited selection of tools available to you and no game knowledge. But once you play awhile there is all kinds of things to do. You just have to someone that can create their own content rather than follow a scripted path.
Rainey Dhey Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2016.07.20 22:32:20 - [100] - Quote The problems I see with Eve is that its very top heavy. It took me several years of coming and going before I finally even understood what Eve was and was about. Since then, I've seen a lot of things happen. From a new players perspective, I can easily see someone diving into EVE, learning a few things, joining a corp only for the corp to get wardecced as part of the blanket deccing many of the big corps do, then losing a ship, being told to dock up and not play for a week by their CEO and saing "** this game". Or maybe you are in PVP corp, but you get decced by a big merc corp, again, blanket deccing everyone and then being told by your CEO to dock up for a week because you cant compete with this big merc corp. "** this game". You'll say "Hire another corp and fight them, or band together and fight them off." umm, all of the big merc corps are allied to eachother because they are all too sissified to actually take on anyone that will challenge them as its easier to blop smaller corps and act powerful and big. It's top heavy. CCP is always trying to push people into low/null sec when a lot of players simply dont want o go there. They wont change the blanket deccing going on which would give more newb friendly corps a chance to thrive and ultimately is committing a slow and painful suicide over time. Its seems CCP is more about fueling the loss of ships to keep the economy in check at the expense of losing players to frustration or lack of play.
Polo Marco Four Winds 34	Posted - 2016.07.20 23:37:53 - [101] - Quote For me it was simple.. I quit playing in January and my 3 subs ran out last week. Today I'm just stopped by to see what the last few updates have done, and was disappointed. For years my business in game was making tech 2 weapons and munitions. In 2013 I branched out into null after spending 3 years training 3 pilots for caps. Tto really do what I was doing in bulk you need access to Jita. I was running 3 or four JF runs a week into empire and several more throughout the local regions in null. It tookme about 4 or 5hours aweek to make my ISKs so I could afford to lose ships in PVP. That all changed with Phoebe. I got jump fatigue fatigue. Bored with hisec, and sitting around waiting to move in null, I just got tired of it all. Yeah I have 2 carrier pilots too, but I got tired of just ratting with them, but it was more time efficient tfor me than manufacturing and moving materials around. All my null stuff is till sitting there 2 jumps from empire. I lost my pos in hisec but for a couple of bill I can get all my stuff back up and running. I still have 8 or 10 in cash salted away plus 15 or 20 more in ships and goods. I just don't want to come back. All that skill training wasted. Or spend hours and hours moving what used to take minutes. I never cared about supercap drops or regional soveriegnty. I never 'boxed'. The only thing I see that nerfing commercial caps jump capability did was to drive small and mid sized entrepreneurs like me out of nullsec. It cost me my freedom in game and nullified years of skill training time. I'll keep looking in every so often, but I'm not paying CCP a dime until I get my freedom back. Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.
Chewytowel Haklar Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 219	Posted - 2016.07.20 23:38:13 - [102] - Quote It probably has something to do with not being able to just jump in and getting loads of content spoon fed to you all while being constantly reminded how legendary you are. Every single time you do a simple task you get an achievement celebrating your amazing skill at doing simple tasks, "Congrats you logged into the game! 10 achievement points." Or perhaps not being able to overpower things with all purple gear while thinking you are just so awesome and everybody should admire you. You can't out level other people and one shot them, or use that extra power to win. Even winning is a subjective thing in EVE. Technically the only objective is the one we set ourselves. Or maybe it is the toxic community as some would call it. Where you can get scammed out of everything you own by some EU nerd sitting in his underwear at his computer typing away with his cheetos infested finger tips. Where pirates and gankers roam around looking for fresh fish to devour at any time, ready to make some miner or mission runner cry out in protest. EVE kicks your ass and then laughs at you. It doesn't hold your hand or tell you a bed time story. You are the story. I guess some people don't like that, they want a game that just gives them a leaderboard and a way to show off their leet skills. This game tells you to go make it happen if that is what you want. Maybe it's too much of a job. Maybe it requires too many IT related skills cause you might have to learn how to create a site, application, or whatever to make the game you want. But most of all from what I can see is that EVE is about patience. Everything today seems about now now now. Don't make me wait! And the more time you put into something only to lose it is too painful to bear.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26336	Posted - 2016.07.20 23:44:07 - [103] - Quote Rainey Dhey wrote: From a new players perspective, I can easily see someone diving into EVE, learning a few things, joining a corp only for the corp to get wardecced as part of the blanket deccing many of the big corps do, then losing a ship, being told to dock up and not play for a week by their CEO and saing "** this game". That's poor leadership not a game mechanics problem; being a leader comes with responsibilities, one of which is being able to lead others through both the good times and adversity. Quote: Or maybe you are in PVP corp, but you get decced by a big merc corp, again, blanket deccing everyone and then being told by your CEO to dock up for a week because you cant compete with this big merc corp. " this game". You'll say "Hire another corp and fight them, or band together and fight them off." umm, all of the big merc corps are allied to eachother because they are all too sissified to actually take on anyone that will challenge them as its easier to blop smaller corps and act powerful and big. Blanket decking is now pretty much a necessity for merc corps, the ability to avoid wardecs by rerolling corp without penalty and the recent loss of watchlist functionality are both contributing factors to that. While some of the merc corps do indeed have mutual non aggression pacts there are some merc corps that everybody will shoot at. Quote: It's top heavy. CCP is always trying to push people into low/null sec when a lot of players simply dont want o go there. They wont change the blanket deccing going on which would give more newb friendly corps a chance to thrive and ultimately is committing a slow and painful suicide over time. CCP could change the blanket decking quite easily, they have at least 2 ways of doing it. They could go the route of trying to dig into the mainstream MMO market and continue nibbling away at the ability to create conflict in hisec until hisec PvP is all but mechanically impossible, or they could be brave and review some of the changes they've made in the last 3 or 4 years and look at the effects that they've had on hisec PvP; bear in mind that CCP considered the wardec mechanics to be underused the last time they spoke about it. If the first becomes set in stone you won't like what happens next, believe me. Come to think of it if CCP rolled back a few mechanics you wouldn't like what happens then either. Be careful what you wish for Quote:** Its seems CCP is more about fueling the loss of ships to keep the economy in check at the expense of losing players to frustration or lack of play. Do you understand the concept of a player driven economy? Do you understand that without the destruction of ships and assets the economy would stagnate and eventually collapse? Do you understand the nature of the game? I would hazard a guess at no to all three. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 256	Posted - 2016.07.21 00:02:37 - [104] - Quote Chewytowel Haklar wrote: It probably has something to do with not being able to just jump in and getting loads of content spoon fed to you all while being constantly reminded how legendary you are. Every single time you do a simple task you get an achievement celebrating your amazing skill at doing simple tasks, "Congrats you logged into the game! 10 achievement points." Have you seen the "Opportunities" notifications? And they've added payouts to them now. And they can't even **ing remember which ones I've already done before. I ** you not - I just got a(nother) message stating that I get a whole 100.000 isk for chatting in local for the first time.... On an 8 year old character that has probably spoken in local at least a few thousand times....
Rainey Dhey Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2016.07.21 00:03:31 - [105] - Quote Quote: That's poor leadership not a game mechanics problem; being a leader comes with responsibilities, one of which is being able to lead others through both the good times and adversity. Occasional adversity is one thing. Constant wardec harassment is another. Blanket decking is now pretty much a necessity for merc corps, the ability to avoid wardecs by rerolling corp without penalty and the recent loss of watchlist functionality are both contributing factors to that. While some of the merc corps do indeed have mutual non aggression pacts there are some merc corps that everybody will shoot at. You mean blanket deccing is a neccesity for those corps too lazy to actually hunt their targets as opposed to just being able to casually roam into a variety of targets wherever they go. Got it. CCP could change the blanket decking quite easily, they have at least 2 ways of doing it. Yeah, limit the number of war decs to ten at a time and make them actually hunt targets like real mercs instead of just blanket deccing 100 corps that dont want to be bothered in their industry ships just to be feeder for **** blop fleets. Do I understand the economy? I have 3 accounts and about 30b that says I do.**
Doc Fury Furious Enterprises 8367	Posted - 2016.07.21 00:22:42 - [106] - Quote Polo Marco wrote: In 2013 I branched out into null after spending 3 years training 3 pilots for caps. Tto really do what I was doing in bulk you need access to Jita. I was running 3 or four JF runs a week into empire and several more throughout the local regions in null. That all changed with Phoebe. Some of what you say is understandable, but please excuse Doc when he points out that a big part of your problem(s) is that you are trying to play in null solo with a 3-man alt corp, and that is just not going to work, and hasn't for a long time. Jump fatigue is irritating but quite manageable, but you will need better planning and friends to be successful. Gÿ+ The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper: 'Hodor'.
Polo Marco Four Winds 34	Posted - 2016.07.21 00:37:46 - [107] - Quote Doc Fury wrote: Some of what you say is understandable, but please excuse Doc when he points out that a big part of your problem(s) is that you are trying to play in null solo with a 3-man alt corp, and that is just not going to work, and hasn't for a long time. Jump fatigue is irritating but quite manageable, but you will need better planning and friends to be successful. My alts were flying in a blue renter alliance, first in drone space then after the nerf in Querious. I had more access than I could cover even under the old rules. But Polo's prowler has made deliveries just about everywhere. ;) I DO miss blockade running ..... anyway GTG rl calls and My wife hasn't got a fatigue timer...... Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26337	Posted - 2016.07.21 00:58:34 - [108] - Quote Rainey Dhey wrote: Occasional adversity is one thing. Constant wardec harassment is another. Wardecs aren't harassment . There are many ways to deal with them; dropping out of or rerolling the corp, blobbing their expensive ships with frigates, moving, having friends in the merc business that you can call upon or retain on a monthly basis etc, etc. Quote: You mean blanket deccing is a neccesity for those corps too lazy to actually hunt their targets as opposed to just being able to casually roam into a variety of targets wherever they go. Got it One of the mechanics that was used to actually hunt down targets has recently been changed in such a way that hunting people down is virtually impossible. I have no doubt that the merc corps will continue to adapt to that change, one of the results of that adaption is that blanket wardecs have increased in order to increase the possibility of having something to shoot at. Quote: Yeah, limit the number of war decs to ten at a time and make them actually hunt targets like real mercs instead of just blanket deccing 100 corps that dont want to be bothered in their industry ships just to be feeder for **** blop fleets Regardless of peoples wish of not wanting to be bothered, this is a PvP game, all of it, including hisec; just like any other PvP game you consent to participating in PvP the moment you log in. Quote: Do I understand the economy? I have 3 accounts and about 30b that says I do.** And? Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Chewytowel Haklar Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 220	Posted - 2016.07.21 01:15:29 - [109] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Chewytowel Haklar wrote: It probably has something to do with not being able to just jump in and getting loads of content spoon fed to you all while being constantly reminded how legendary you are. Every single time you do a simple task you get an achievement celebrating your amazing skill at doing simple tasks, "Congrats you logged into the game! 10 achievement points." Have you seen the "Opportunities" notifications? And they've added payouts to them now. And they can't even **ing remember which ones I've already done before. I ** you not - I just got a(nother) message stating that I get a whole 100.000 isk for chatting in local for the first time.... On an 8 year old character that has probably spoken in local at least a few thousand times.... Yeah forgot about that, but frankly that stuff in my opinion seems so out of place in this game. I guess they are 'trying' to pull in THAT crowd, but I doubt it is going to work without more simplification and dumbing down of game mechanics. ... oh crap that is where they are going isn't it ...
Doc Fury Furious Enterprises 8367	Posted - 2016.07.21 01:22:24 - [110] - Quote Polo Marco wrote: Doc Fury wrote: Some of what you say is understandable, but please excuse Doc when he points out that a big part of your problem(s) is that you are trying to play in null solo with a 3-man alt corp, and that is just not going to work, and hasn't for a long time. Jump fatigue is irritating but quite manageable, but you will need better planning and friends to be successful. My alts were flying in a blue renter alliance, first in drone space then after the nerf in Querious. I had more access than I could cover even under the old rules. . That was prior to 2013 correct? Before Phoebe and before you tried to go solo? That's what your corp history says anyway. Good luck with your wife, may she always report: "Docking request...accepted"... Gÿ+ The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper: 'Hodor'.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 17839	Posted - 2016.07.21 03:48:35 - [111] - Quote Polo Marco wrote: For me it was simple.. I quit playing in January and my 3 subs ran out last week. Today I'm just stopped by to see what the last few updates have done, and was disappointed. For years my business in game was making tech 2 weapons and munitions. In 2013 I branched out into null after spending 3 years training 3 pilots for caps. Tto really do what I was doing in bulk you need access to Jita. I was running 3 or four JF runs a week into empire and several more throughout the local regions in null. It tookme about 4 or 5hours aweek to make my ISKs so I could afford to lose ships in PVP. That all changed with Phoebe. I got jump fatigue fatigue. Bored with hisec, and sitting around waiting to move in null, I just got tired of it all. Yeah I have 2 carrier pilots too, but I got tired of just ratting with them, but it was more time efficient tfor me than manufacturing and moving materials around. All my null stuff is till sitting there 2 jumps from empire. I lost my pos in hisec but for a couple of bill I can get all my stuff back up and running. I still have 8 or 10 in cash salted away plus 15 or 20 more in ships and goods. I just don't want to come back. All that skill training wasted. Or spend hours and hours moving what used to take minutes. I never cared about supercap drops or regional soveriegnty. I never 'boxed'. The only thing I see that nerfing commercial caps jump capability did was to drive small and mid sized entrepreneurs like me out of nullsec. It cost me my freedom in game and nullified years of skill training time. I'll keep looking in every so often, but I'm not paying CCP a dime until I get my freedom back. If it's only 2jumps then you only have 5.5 minutes delay. Hardly the end of the world. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
Noah Reese 32	Posted - 2016.07.21 05:55:41 - [112] - Quote Rainey Dhey wrote: You mean blanket deccing is a neccesity for those corps too lazy to actually hunt their targets as opposed to just being able to casually roam into a variety of targets wherever they go. CCP removed the option for a small or solo wardec corp to function, if I can't see who's online and there's no other ways to check it then I can't target a specific corp or specific corp members and thus the only solution as a wardec corp is to stop using a scalpel and to start using a shotgun or even better, C4. That doesn't mean what some of the corps do makes sense or isn't silly, they did stuff like that before the changes as well but CCP simply eradicated the smaller, more focused wardec corps and those people either reformed or joined big wardec corps, making the problem even more severe. CCP per usual does things without understanding what consequences it has, they removed watch list because of supercap pilots (they have the biggest lobby in the CSM after all) and didn't think or want to listen to us about what other consequences it would have. We even listed them some solutions: have locator agents tells us if someone is online or not. But nope, couldn't be bothered because as always with CCP it's 1 step forwards, 2 steps back. The result of that is what you see right now, completely silly blanket wardecs that will only get worse and worse. Don't blame us.
Detshni Rim Collection RC The Old Guard. 16	Posted - 2016.07.21 05:56:51 - [113] - Quote Towron Paboo wrote: I started two month ago...and now I will quit again. Reason is, that I get killed over and over again in high-sec while mining some minerals and afterwards getting mails that press charges. As long as a game says that it is legal to kill newbies while they try to find out how the game works. I won't pay for something like that...sandbox or not...there should be an area where I am save, especially as a newbie. So you won't get new players when most of them make such an anoying experience. Have fun. This, to me is the best post on this thread. When CCP decided that there should be nowhere left for newbies to hide, and be safe, THAT is when the game started to go downhill for me. That is some years ago yes, but still.. Most of the good people, carebears if you will, don't play eve anymore. I miss those people, they were good people. I had fun with those people.. Now, alliances come and go, corps die, because of corp drama, but the corp drama got started because of .bad people Bad people (person)>> A person that is only interested in investing in his or her isk wallet, and not interested in longlife friendships, or teamwork of any sort. They may act like being friendly in the start, but it all goes down the drain eventually. The state of a game is only as good as the state of its community, and well, as for the game itself: You can't learn a .bad dog new tricks. .Bad dog (dog)>> A dog that is only interested in his own bone burried in the backyard, than pleasing his owner with a strowl down to the beautiful neighbour. Bad dog indeed.
Noah Reese 32	Posted - 2016.07.21 05:57:03 - [114] - Quote Detshni wrote: Towron Paboo wrote: I started two month ago...and now I will quit again. Reason is, that I get killed over and over again in high-sec while mining some minerals and afterwards getting mails that press charges. As long as a game says that it is legal to kill newbies while they try to find out how the game works. I won't pay for something like that...sandbox or not...there should be an area where I am save, especially as a newbie. So you won't get new players when most of them make such an anoying experience. Have fun. This, to me is the best post on this thread. When CCP decided that there should be nowhere left for newbies to hide, and be safe, THAT is when the game started to go downhill for me. That is some years ago yes, but still.. Most of the good people, carebears if you will, don't play eve anymore. I miss those people, they were good people. I had fun with those people.. Now, alliances come and go, corps die, because of corp drama, but the corp drama got started because of .bad people Bad people (person)>> A person that is only interested in investing in his or her isk wallet, and not interested in longlife friendships, or teamwork of any sort. They may act like being friendly in the start, but it all goes down the drain eventually. The state of a game is only as good as the state of its community, and well, as for the game itself: You can't learn a .bad dog new tricks. .Bad dog (dog)>> A dog that is only interested in his own bone burried in the backyard, than pleasing his owner with a strowl down to the beautiful neighbour. Bad dog indeed. I looked him up, he lost ONE ship, a retriever, while mining in a 0.6 system. There's 3 barges for a reason, he chose the one that blows up easily while being in a 0.6 system and a very busy one at that (Isanamo). If a player chooses to make 3 silly decisions then the outcome is predictable. So you can take your "woe is me" with you, CCP has been catering for the low effort carebears for years.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 258	Posted - 2016.07.21 10:41:42 - [115] - Quote Noah Reese wrote: I looked him up, he lost ONE ship, a retriever, while mining in a 0.6 system. There's 3 barges for a reason, he chose the one that blows up easily while being in a 0.6 system and a very busy one at that (Isanamo). If a player chooses to make 3 silly decisions then the outcome is predictable. So you can take your "woe is me" with you, CCP has been catering for the low effort carebears for years. He also couldn't be bothered to even use his rig slots at all - about as un-tanky as a ship gets yeah. And yeah, I did get a chuckle about the "over and over again" being...1 whole time in his entire EVE life... @Detshni - CCP protects new players now more than they ever have in the past. What exactly are you talking about here: Detshni wrote: When CCP decided that there should be nowhere left for newbies to hide, and be safe, THAT is when the game started to go downhill for me. Because as far as I know, the exact opposite is what happened... Are you just saying a player should be "new" as long as they feel new, rather than based on anything as silly as character age? What is your actual complaint here?
u3pog Caldari Provisions Caldari State 749	Posted - 2016.07.21 11:02:19 - [116] - Quote There is no short answer to OP's question, however as stable as our playerbase is, eventually some of the older players stop playing due to real life or simply moving on, as for the new players that are supposed to replace them - today they have many more options to choose from than 15 years ago, plus gamers have become lazy. I spoke to a friend of mine about EVE and that I'm still playing it after so many years and he said: "don't wanna even test the game, too many menus, seems too complicated and time consuming". He prefers the easy paths, even though MMOs are supposed to be time consuming, there are single player games for the opposite. In short - new generations have become lazy and don't bother playing games where they have to think.
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 24	Posted - 2016.07.21 11:54:18 - [117] - Quote I've been playing here for a short time ( half a year ) and I invested on 4 accounts already paid for the next year and a half, so I really hope the game will last some more... The bad things I found that can influence players base imo are: - 14 days trial in a so difficult game? Just the frametime to make persons abandon the game and never come back... - Wardec system: horrible for any newbie joining big corps permadecced and horrible for newbies joining little corps that can be wardecced. Good only for hisec gankbears - Pve: every decent mmo has new raids, dungeons and so on from time to time, here there are only old missions and incredibly boring / dull / grind events like the current one... - Organized pvp / fw: novice plexes infested by bored veterans on blink ships, I cannot imagine a new player with few isks trying it. - Worst of everything else: this is gatecamp/basecamp online, not eve online. Zkillboard Pvp top players are gatecampers, gatecampers, gatecampers, and ... gatecampers. So imo biggest part of Pvp is to wait persons behind the door to kill them when they open the door. This makes most many places to be avoided by newbies at all costs, shrinking the playmap very very much.
Memphis Baas 1745	Posted - 2016.07.21 12:17:32 - [118] - Quote For me, it's going to be simple, pretty soon: the big screens in-station (or if not the screens, whatever else that they changed when they introduced the screens) crashes my video cards to black screen or (sometimes) blue screen. It's been several patch fixes and they haven't been willing to remove the screens, and they obviously haven't done anything to fix the increased graphics load in-station and/or the crashing (for me). So good bye EVE.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14299	Posted - 2016.07.21 12:34:51 - [119] - Quote The last thing CCP should ever do is listen to why people think something (anything) is happening. That includes me , I tend to think that beyond 'natural causes' like the decline of mmo popularity and mobile gaming, the fact that CCP has tried to make the game more newb friendly has had a bad effect. That what I think, but I don't know. That's a big difference, some of these folks are SURE their pet hatred (gatecampers, cloaky campers, pvp, pve, lack of pvp, lack of pve, mining, people killing miners etc etc etc) is obviously the cause of any decline....despite the fact that those factors didn't make them stop playing.. Hell, you can't even really trust it when someone tells you why they themselves stopped (or continued) playing, because people are horrible at understanding their own wants and needs. All of which is why I don't worry about EVE going up or down oe even ending. "EVE is dying" is a thing in game for the same reason people have tried to predict the end of the world for as long as there have been people: anxiety. If you know the end is coming you can prepare, if you don't know when it's going to happen there is this fear of being caught flat footed, so people speculate (and some try to use this anxiety to manipulate outcomes, saying "EVE is dying, so you better give me the features I personally want!"). Most of these people are scared to death that one day they will try to log in and "everything they've worked for all these years" will be gone.
Roenok Baalnorn Sadistically Sinister 234	Posted - 2016.07.21 13:23:45 - [120] - Quote Quote: Wardecs aren't harassment Roll. There are many ways to deal with them; dropping out of or rerolling the corp, blobbing their expensive ships with frigates, moving, having friends in the merc business that you can call upon or retain on a monthly basis etc, etc. Or you could just move to low/null/w-space where wardecs dont matter and such things have 0 impact on your game play. Quote: - 14 days trial in a so difficult game? Just the frametime to make persons abandon the game and never come back... I agree with this. A game that has a linear direction and isnt as complex as eve can do fine on a 14 day free trial. In eve, after 14 days, you still really dont have a clue as to whats going on and you havent done enough of anything to actually decide if you like the game or not. Nor have you really game the game a chance. And eve is slow to get started on, so new players really need that extra time to get into eve. I was prodded by a friend who played 6 months longer than i did to stick with it, because it gets better. Without that i would of quit after 14 days. Quote: - Pve: every decent mmo has new raids, dungeons and so on from time to time, here there are only old missions and incredibly boring / dull / grind events like the current one... As someone who primarily pvps, i can still agree with this. Pve in eve is boring and almost completely unchanged since i started almost a decade ago. Sure they added a few ultra hard mode things, but hardly put any effort into pve. Quote: - Worst of everything else: this is gatecamp/basecamp online, not eve online. Zkillboard Pvp top players are gatecampers, gatecampers, gatecampers, and ... gatecampers. So imo biggest part of Pvp is to wait persons behind the door to kill them when they open the door. This makes most many places to be avoided by newbies at all costs, shrinking the playmap very very much. There are very few people that actually engage in this type of activity on a constant basis. I pvp all the time and while i do gate camp, its rare, and its usually access denial for a specific corp or alliance in null rather than trying to catch noobs that wonder in tama. Most pvpers pvp like me not like the gatecampers, wardeccers, and gankers. If you are a noob and i shoot you its because you were in null and you usually have to be fairly deep into null because i normally dont hang out on the highsec boarder systems. The ones you complain about are actually to lazy to do actual skilled pvp. They rather just shoot a passer-by in usually a non combat ship. Shooting fish in a barrel to me is not fun nor challenging.
Geronimo McVain McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc 149	Posted - 2016.07.21 14:11:15 - [121] - Quote First problem is that CCP is loosing player because they can't get a grip on eve. Eve is so complex that you really need to spoon feed new players. I would start with a whole story which puts the new player through a serie of missions that will teach him the basics. The career agents don't do this there is no story that puts it all together and doing something once in such a complex game will just overwhelm new players. Did I mention that some of the most important principles in eve are not taught like really fitting a ship. Eve has enough players that are interested but not enough that stay. And we need informations that are in game and exact. When I started in December I was searching where to upgrade my clone because all the sides told me that it is important..... Until I found out that the mechanics have changed. Same with grinding faction to install clones..... How do you really guarantee good hits if you are shooting at something was told by some Uniwiki site not Eve or CCP. And this are things that frustrate noobs and thing that are basic to play it. Second is that Eve is a PC game. 75% of the sold games are console games so the basic idea of Dust wasn't bad but you need to get Eve on Consoles which would need a whole new UI something that it really needs on PC too.
Sexy Cakes Have A Seat 1094	Posted - 2016.07.21 14:40:04 - [122] - Quote I sold my titan and plexed 4 characters for 2 years. Formatted my PC a couple of weeks ago and haven't even installed EVE yet. I was a lowsec explorer. When Odyssey came out a few years ago it made it impossible to make a living off of lowsec exploration for a couple of reasons. The number 1 reason was they got rid of deep space probes which gave anyone with higher skills an edge on the speed of which they could find the valuable sites. My buddies and I used to cover a region and make all the ISK we needed from exploration in a few hours. Sometimes the RNG gods would smile on us and we'd get a billion ISK drop and could derp around a bit before needing to get back to the coalmine. Other times you did radar/mag sites @ 25-50 mil a pop for a whole week just to make ends meet. We loved it. We used to tell people 'If you want exploration without obligation join the lowsec nation." Now anytime anyone jumps into system, be it a brand new character or a 10 year vet they know exactly how many signatures are in system, no effort, no skills, just free information about the sites for jumping into system. It doesn't sound like that big of a deal but it was murder for the serious lowsec dwellers who didn't run level 5s or farm LP in FW. Then the lootspew bullsh!t and radar/mag sites losing all their value when they lost their rats, then later down the road they changed the spawn rate on escalations from nullsec anomolies so the green/blue loot you get is all but worthless these days too. The third reason was you could no longer bring in a dual boxed glass cannon T3 BC to help run the sites faster because rat aggro changed. So basically these 3 things in the odyssey patch caused 2 of my buddies to quit playing. Their play style was living in lowsec, exploring and patrolling 'our' region. I kept on playing and went back to nullsec despite hating all the beauracracy and politics and thrived for over 2 years. Phoebe hits a couple of new friends quit playing. Yadda yadda so the story goes. Having played for years and years, watching friends come and go, adapting or dieing, etc. etc. etc. I can tell you this at the start of a nice long break from EVE. EVE Online is a game that you have to do a certain amount of bullsh!t in to have fun. It's not like league of legends, world of warcraft or skyrim or anything else. Everything requires research and knowledge, planning and execution. I enjoyed it, I still do but slowly and surely the amount of crap I have to put up with to do anything in this game just goes up and up. I have JDC 5 on every character I own, I have nuetral characters for highsec hauling, every character has T2 haulers for jump bridges, the list goes on. It seems like every year since Odyssey it just gets harder and harder to do the bullsh!t you have to do in order to have fun. So that's why I'm all but gone. Sorry for the wall of text but you asked :P Not today spaghetti.
Lt Mando NO H0N0R 5	Posted - 2016.07.21 15:46:13 - [123] - Quote I have been playing ever for about 7 years now , if only I could count how many of these post you see during the summer seasons .
Remiel Pollard Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 7653	Posted - 2016.07.21 15:47:24 - [124] - Quote How is it that all these people who are somehow posting on the forums not playing the game any more? You know you have to be subbed to post here right? Whether or not you've done that with plex, or cash, I just don't believe you're legitimately 'gone' if you're posting here. I was gone since January, only came back a few weeks ago myself. I didn't pay CCP just to play 'Forums Online'. You know Facebook is free right? And Reddit? GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Chewytowel Haklar Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 220	Posted - 2016.07.21 15:53:19 - [125] - Quote Remiel Pollard wrote: How is it that all these people who are somehow posting on the forums not playing the game any more? You know you have to be subbed to post here right? Whether or not you've done that with plex, or cash, I just don't believe you're legitimately 'gone' if you're posting here. I was gone since January, only came back a few weeks ago myself. I didn't pay CCP just to play 'Forums Online'. You know Facebook is free right? And Reddit? Yeah, but they could also have bought a yearly sub, plexed for several months just to keep skill training going, or whatever other viable reason.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 261	Posted - 2016.07.21 16:06:17 - [126] - Quote Chewytowel Haklar wrote: Remiel Pollard wrote: How is it that all these people who are somehow posting on the forums not playing the game any more? You know you have to be subbed to post here right? Whether or not you've done that with plex, or cash, I just don't believe you're legitimately 'gone' if you're posting here. I was gone since January, only came back a few weeks ago myself. I didn't pay CCP just to play 'Forums Online'. You know Facebook is free right? And Reddit? Yeah, but they could also have bought a yearly sub, plexed for several months just to keep skill training going, or whatever other viable reason. I know I for one was on a yearly subscription and am paid up through the 13th of October. You do not need a subscription to post here - just a valid pilot's license.
Sexy Cakes Have A Seat 1095	Posted - 2016.07.21 16:22:20 - [127] - Quote Remiel Pollard wrote: How is it that all these people who are somehow posting on the forums not playing the game any more? You know you have to be subbed to post here right? Whether or not you've done that with plex, or cash, I just don't believe you're legitimately 'gone' if you're posting here. I was gone since January, only came back a few weeks ago myself. I didn't pay CCP just to play 'Forums Online'. You know Facebook is free right? And Reddit? My job is boring. I plexed for a long time and I still browse the forums and reddit at work. Not today spaghetti.
Noah Reese 38	Posted - 2016.07.21 16:33:33 - [128] - Quote I've been trying to quit since 2009.
Krevnos Back Door Burglars The Otherworld 168	Posted - 2016.07.21 16:47:38 - [129] - Quote As mentioned before, there are many reasons for the decline in player base. Everyone has their own reasons if departing and I can tell you only my own: I have allowed my accounts to lapse because I felt that the developer was no longer interested in enhancing the Eve experience, but rather monetisation of as many aspects as it can to milk the existing subscribers. Evidence of this to me: Constant ship skins which can all be developed for next to nothing (everyone remembers the famous bug) but sold at premium. Recent move to allow skill point trading (which was notably very poorly defended by CCP community spokespersons who insulted us with tirades of here say and bullshit with no figures or market data to confirm their rationale). Additionally, I feel that recent features being implemented by the company can be considered generic MMO content. Eve was never a generic MMO and I hope I can speak for the community in saying that none of its players wanted it to be. Frankly, if I wanted to play a generic MMO there are far better ones out there than Eve. Recent evidence of these changes to me: CCP Rise with 'Daily Opportunities' CCP Fozzie with 'capture the flag' mechanics for sovereignty (which he also wanted to introduce to Citadels). The Citadel expansion was a welcome break from the interminable mundane slop and money grabbing being pushed our way over the past 2 years, but alas it was both incomplete and introduced its own raft of irksome mechanics (like the fighter interface) which have held it back sorely. While I don't like to subscribe to the 'Eve is dying' band wagon, there is little doubt that the game is now in free-fall terminal decline. In a game where players create the content, once a critical social mass becomes lost, the community will fall apart very quickly.
xxxTRUSTxxx Galactic Rangers EVEolution. 452	Posted - 2016.07.21 17:46:15 - [130] - Quote Denavit wrote: Is is because PLEX prices, i remember buying them at 550mill, 500mill, now is almost 1bill, or is it because the changes are making oldSchoolers quit? back in the day we used to get a can of coke a mars bar a packet of pay day toffees and 10 chewing gums for 20p 20p i tells ya.. accept certain inalienable truths Prices will rise, politicians will philander, you too will get old And when you do, you'll fantasize that when you were young Prices were reasonable, politicians were noble And children respected their elders Baz Luhrmann
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 230	Posted - 2016.07.21 20:36:27 - [131] - Quote I'm still here! o/ Sellin' stuff. Killin' rocks. Snarkin' around. --Ageless Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
Judaa K'Marr Power-Hug Training Bootcamp 16	Posted - 2016.07.21 20:56:38 - [132] - Quote Sexy Cakes wrote: I sold my titan and plexed 4 characters for 2 years. Formatted my PC a couple of weeks ago and haven't even installed EVE yet. I was a lowsec explorer. When Odyssey came out a few years ago it made it impossible to make a living off of lowsec exploration for a couple of reasons. The number 1 reason was they got rid of deep space probes which gave anyone with higher skills an edge on the speed of which they could find the valuable sites. My buddies and I used to cover a region and make all the ISK we needed from exploration in a few hours. Sometimes the RNG gods would smile on us and we'd get a billion ISK drop and could derp around a bit before needing to get back to the coalmine. Other times you did radar/mag sites @ 25-50 mil a pop for a whole week just to make ends meet. We loved it. We used to tell people 'If you want exploration without obligation join the lowsec nation." Now anytime anyone jumps into system, be it a brand new character or a 10 year vet they know exactly how many signatures are in system, no effort, no skills, just free information about the sites for jumping into system. It doesn't sound like that big of a deal but it was murder for the serious lowsec dwellers who didn't run level 5s or farm LP in FW. Then the lootspew bullsh!t and radar/mag sites losing all their value when they lost their rats, then later down the road they changed the spawn rate on escalations from nullsec anomolies so the green/blue loot you get is all but worthless these days too. The third reason was you could no longer bring in a dual boxed glass cannon T3 BC to help run the sites faster because rat aggro changed. So basically these 3 things in the odyssey patch caused 2 of my buddies to quit playing. Their play style was living in lowsec, exploring and patrolling 'our' region. I kept on playing and went back to nullsec despite hating all the beauracracy and politics and thrived for over 2 years. Phoebe hits a couple of new friends quit playing. Yadda yadda so the story goes. Having played for years and years, watching friends come and go, adapting or dieing, etc. etc. etc. I can tell you this at the start of a nice long break from EVE. EVE Online is a game that you have to do a certain amount of bullsh!t in to have fun. It's not like league of legends, world of warcraft or skyrim or anything else. Everything requires research and knowledge, planning and execution. I enjoyed it, I still do but slowly and surely the amount of crap I have to put up with to do anything in this game just goes up and up. I have JDC 5 on every character I own, I have nuetral characters for highsec hauling, every character has T2 haulers for jump bridges, the list goes on. It seems like every year since Odyssey it just gets harder and harder to do the bullsh!t you have to do in order to have fun. So that's why I'm all but gone. Sorry for the wall of text but you asked :P I hated the exploration changes as well. It was especially confusing since in this game where the standard of PVE is such a well known joke, exploration was on the one area of PVE that approached being fun and interesting, and for some reason CCP decided it was in need of nonstop meddling and dumbing down. Someone in corp getting a 10/10 would be an event. The massive drop from 6/10 was like winning the lottery. Now it's all a bit meh.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 3434	Posted - 2016.07.21 21:10:36 - [133] - Quote Judaa K'Marr wrote: I hated the exploration changes as well. It was especially confusing since in this game where the standard of PVE is such a well known joke, exploration was on the one area of PVE that approached being fun and interesting, and for some reason CCP decided it was in need of nonstop meddling and dumbing down. Someone in corp getting a 10/10 would be an event. The massive drop from 6/10 was like winning the lottery. Now it's all a bit meh. Launching a single DSP and knowing exactly what was in the system was not difficult or engaging content, it was simply a rote step in micromanagement. Clicking launch 8 times to get your probes out was also not difficult or engaging content, it was just an RSI inducing micromanagement step. Loot spew was a valiant attempt at the request by the player base for more interaction in looting cans, and rewarding skill. Moral of that story, be careful what you wish for. It has now also been removed. If it's a bit meh getting a 10/10 now then that's because you have been around and done a bunch of them now, because they are no easier to find than before. Just less tedium is involved in finding them.
Bumblefck Kerensky Initiatives 12612	Posted - 2016.07.21 21:13:00 - [134] - Quote xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: accept certain inalienable truths Prices will rise, politicians will philander, you too will get old And when you do, you'll fantasize that when you were young Prices were reasonable, politicians were noble And children respected their elders Baz Luhrmann Anyone who quotes 'Sunscreen' needs to be (space) keel-hauled Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi . Bumble's Space Log
45thtiger 0109 AL3XAND3R. 171	Posted - 2016.07.22 00:27:18 - [135] - Quote Pandora Carrollon wrote: This is one of the most hilarious threads I've ever read. Everyone complaining about everything. CCP has NO CHANCE of making all you people happy. Let's hit some high points: CCP isn't providing enough content! CCP is too controlling! CCP changes the game too much and doesn't tell us! CCP tells us everything, there is no mystery! etc. etc. etc. Time to put on your big boy and big girl pants folks. You have the most advanced sandbox game I'm even aware of, and while I don't know all of the games out there, I haven't seen anything close to EVE in complexity and freedom. CCP could provide NO NEW content for a year and there would still be massive things you can do in the game. The issue here isn't CCP, it's you the player. Either you have literally done everything there is to do in EVE, or you have blocked off certain parts of the sandbox because you find them uninteresting. Regardless, the issue is still you. I am relatively new to this game and my read on it is that I have about 3-4 years of figuring stuff out and trying new things, so I'm not a grizzled vet that doesn't a closet full of "Been there, done that" T-Shirts. If I just described you, then maybe give EVE a break for a while if you're bored. There are about 3 good Space Sims that have just come out, try them. If I didn't describe you as a grizzled Vet, then you are more likely along the newer vein such as I am. If you are bored now, then I can't help you other than to give you a piece of advice: "Broaden your horizon and take control of your game of EVE." It's not CCP's job to mother hen you. Take the blinders off and go play somewhere else in the sandbox. You might just find yourself doing something new, unexpected, and fun. CCP Does let everyone know of the update they are doing through the o7 show and the Road map goto this link EvE updatesand tell the rest of the people if CCP does or does not let us know what is going on in EvE. You Have to take the good with the bad and the bad with the good. Welcome to EvE OnLiNe
W33b3l Conquest and Kittens 124	Posted - 2016.07.22 01:19:05 - [136] - Quote The only F2P game I really ever play anymore is PS2 and I still like Warframe a bit. Used to play a lot of War thunder. Those arent MMO's though end their pay systems dont break the game. I cant stand P2W MMO's, if EVE ever went F2P it would die for sure. But I doubt it will ever happen. If sub numbers are indeed dropping. Its just because the number of people that have gotton bored with the game are higher then then new people coming in. It will fluctuate I'm sure. Ya have to remember that a lot of the "vet" players dont like hardly anything at all that CCP is doing with EVE right now. There are some pretty cool and handy things here and there, but as a core, a lot of us dont approve of a lot of it. You also have to remember that the longer you play something the more likely you will get bored with it and quit playing. Its just going to happen. So if the Numbers are dropping. (I dont know if they are), its just because CCP is having issues bringing new players, wich is why they are doing a lot of things they are doing. The issue with that is, a lot of things they are doing to bring in new players is causing older players to drop. Its just a big mess of numbers and statistics that are hard to predict and control. The most well thought out thread in the world wont get you an answer because I doubt CCP even knows for sure. They are just doing there best. In all honesty. If sub numbers ever do become a real problem, I believe it will be because the amount of new blood in CCP will get to a point that they make choices based on current trends from other games and look at it solely as a monetary stream. There wont be enough people around that actually know and understand why this game is what it is (or was). EVE is a very odd game that was designed by people making a game they wanted to play. If that part of the development process dies completely, EVE will die as well. But will that ever happen? I dont think anyone knows how long it will take or if it will. Although there are some signs of what I typed above and people over react to it and start threads like this.
Toobo Project Fruit House Solyaris Chtonium 26	Posted - 2016.07.22 02:24:55 - [137] - Quote There was a talk here earlier about how new bros starting out in High Sec have it tough - that they join friendly & small high sec corp and get war decced and cannot undock for a week (or even longer) and it puts off the new bros & etc. This is a recurring statement that is said very often when talking about small HS corps & new bros & etc, but I think in such cases HS is completely misunderstood and people don't 'get' what EVE is about. EVE is a PVP game, where PVP can occur in ANY space. System Security does not mean there can be no PvP there. It just means different Security Systems work with different PvP 'mechanic'. War dec, suicide gank, etc are just some of the mechanics that can be used to PvP in HS. People should really get this into their head that wherever they are in New Eden, they are in PVP space. The whole idea of "I'm in highsec, I don't want PVP" is totally flawed and it is not what EVE is about. I respect different play styles and understand that some people find PVE more enjoyable, but at the end of the day, New Bros and HS Corps should really understand that HS is also a PVP space, but just working with a different engagement mechanic. So once you get that HS is also a valid PVP space, then you need to plan accordingly. 'Indy Corp', 'Mission Running Corp', etc - I respect that they have different goals and focus and that's all good. But you are operating in PVP space, so you need plans to survive in hostile space (yes, HS is a hostile space, just like LS or Null or WH is, but just with a different mechanic). You need to have plans for defence (since you are living in hostile space), and if you are not up for (or don't have enough pilots for) space ship pew pew then at least have plans to survive and persist in hostile space. There are people who wander around NPC nulls and do PVE primarily. They are not looking for PVP, but they know that PVP can happen any time, so they take pre-cautions to give them better chance to survive. HS corps and players should do the same - watch local, keep tabs on known trouble makers, work with standings and diplomacy, use scout when needed, watch D-Scan, find solutions to transport/fly high-value stuff, etc, etc. EVE is a game where you can do your own thing wherever, but all across HS/LS/Null/WH you need to accept and prepare for the fact that you are living in a hostile space - so feel free to do whatever you want to do wherever you want to do, but do it in a way that give you better chance of survival & persistence. HS corps & players who neglect/ignore/flatly refuse this FACT are the ones who cry & whine & rage quit. Toobo is a lucky talisman. Try Toobo's lucky referral link at the awesome iwantisk website and have a great time http://www.iwantisk.com/?ref=1216023697 Remeber - you win by luck and lose by luck. Don't go crazy. ;)
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13816	Posted - 2016.07.22 11:17:51 - [138] - Quote I think wardec mechanisms must be changed. Now you can just grief with it, people drop corp and they are invulnerable then. So the war should come only to those who really will fight. Military Sections for corporations or different player corporation types maybe? You will not get more kills, or less, but people will be less pissed off by it. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 270	Posted - 2016.07.22 11:25:41 - [139] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: I think wardec mechanisms must be changed. Now you can just grief with it, people drop corp and they are invulnerable then. So the war should come only to those who really will fight. Military Sections for corporations or different player corporation types maybe? You will not get more kills, or less, but people will be less pissed off by it. The saddest part is that it is probably only a matter of time before CCP breaks down and makes combat 100% optional for you... My question, however, is: Why do people with this opinion play the game now - when such changes haven't been made? And why do you seem to suffer the delusion that EVE was ever some wonderful peaceful Utopia where big mean bullies couldn't pick on poor unarmed noobs like you?
ll Kuray ll The Scope Gallente Federation 33	Posted - 2016.07.22 11:33:55 - [140] - Quote Don't know if this has been said but CCP have stated their intent on creating true player engagement stats, hence the ban on command automation that something like ISBoxer let you do. Before this occurred you had 1 player controlling multiple accounts at once all from one screen and this type of artificial manipulation is what CCP want to move away from.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13816	Posted - 2016.07.22 11:37:40 - [141] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: I think wardec mechanisms must be changed. Now you can just grief with it, people drop corp and they are invulnerable then. So the war should come only to those who really will fight. Military Sections for corporations or different player corporation types maybe? You will not get more kills, or less, but people will be less pissed off by it. The saddest part is that it is probably only a matter of time before CCP breaks down and makes combat 100% optional for you... My question, however, is: Why do people with this opinion play the game now - when such changes haven't been made? And why do you seem to suffer the delusion that EVE was ever some wonderful peaceful Utopia where big mean bullies couldn't pick on poor unarmed noobs like you? Stay on topic for petes sake. We want more players right? Everyone must be wardeckable and must be open for griefeing in high sec, right? What about NPC corps? What about people who would want to have their own corp but dont want to be wardeced like NPC corps? Game is giving them middle finger now. But people are in NPC corps and can always go to low sec if they want and attack people there, not in high sec. So what is your point? High sec is a safe heaven (as safe as it gets) for a lot of people. Why do you think majority of people stay in High sec all the time? Are they delusional? Nope, they just like to chill most of the time, or the environment is fitting. If they could, they would really make it more safe, and go to war only when they want, with those who want, such High sec would be a bit better than its now. CCP will have to notice that eventually. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Drago Shouna Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 482	Posted - 2016.07.22 11:49:08 - [142] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: I think wardec mechanisms must be changed. Now you can just grief with it, people drop corp and they are invulnerable then. So the war should come only to those who really will fight. Military Sections for corporations or different player corporation types maybe? You will not get more kills, or less, but people will be less pissed off by it. The saddest part is that it is probably only a matter of time before CCP breaks down and makes combat 100% optional for you... My question, however, is: Why do people with this opinion play the game now - when such changes haven't been made? And why do you seem to suffer the delusion that EVE was ever some wonderful peaceful Utopia where big mean bullies couldn't pick on poor unarmed noobs like you? It's the fact that they can get wardecced for no reason that's the issue, there should to be a reason for a wardec besides having the cash to do it. Then there's the expansions, they have promised a lot but delivered very little as far as a large part of the player base is concerned. Even the events recently have left a lot to be desired by turning either into a grindfest or the players being given very little info of what to do with the things you are supposed to be hunting. Maybe that is a part of it, the fact that CCP throw things to the player base without bothering to explain what exactly it is, or what an individual is supposed to do with it. Maybe it's the 2 main devs driving the direction of eve that's the problem, both of whom just seem to ignore the majority of players. Whatever the reason, 4 players I have introduced to the game all quit within weeks because of the mechanics and bullshit surrounding the game and corps.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 270	Posted - 2016.07.22 11:51:51 - [143] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: I think wardec mechanisms must be changed. Now you can just grief with it, people drop corp and they are invulnerable then. So the war should come only to those who really will fight. Military Sections for corporations or different player corporation types maybe? You will not get more kills, or less, but people will be less pissed off by it. The saddest part is that it is probably only a matter of time before CCP breaks down and makes combat 100% optional for you... My question, however, is: Why do people with this opinion play the game now - when such changes haven't been made? And why do you seem to suffer the delusion that EVE was ever some wonderful peaceful Utopia where big mean bullies couldn't pick on poor unarmed noobs like you? Stay on topic for petes sake. We want more players right? Everyone must be wardeckable and must be open for griefeing in high sec, right? What about NPC corps? What about people who would want to have their own corp but dont want to be wardeced like NPC corps? Game is giving them middle finger now. But people are in NPC corps and can always go to low sec if they want and attack people there, not in high sec. So what is your point? High sec is a safe heaven (as safe as it gets) for a lot of people. Why do you think majority of people stay in High sec all the time? Are they delusional? Nope, they just like to chill most of the time, or the environment is fitting. If they could, they would really make it more safe, and go to war only when they want, with those who want, such High sec would be a bit better than its now. CCP will have to notice that eventually. It has taken them 13 years - but they are already making changes to accomodate people like you. Ironically, you are complaining more now after their changes to make high-sec safer for you than you complained in the 13 years when there were literally no safeguards in place to protect you in high sec other than a CONCORD who was even slower than they are now..... And I am staying on topic, I'm replying directly to what you are saying and asking legitimate, honest questions. I know why people leave the game after finding out how hostile the modern high-sec is to their play-style......but I honestly don't know why they start playing the game in the first place....Because EVE has literally been like that for 13 years - and the only changes were CCP's attempts to make high-sec safer. Granted CCP certainly failed to make high-sec safer....but perhaps that should be a warning to you as you demand that CCP steps in to do even more...
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 270	Posted - 2016.07.22 11:53:43 - [144] - Quote Drago Shouna wrote: It's the fact that they can get wardecced for no reason that's the issue, there should to be a reason for a wardec besides having the cash to do it. Then there's the expansions, they have promised a lot but delivered very little as far as a large part of the player base is concerned. Even the events recently have left a lot to be desired by turning either into a grindfest or the players being given very little info of what to do with the things you are supposed to be hunting. Maybe that is a part of it, the fact that CCP throw things to the player base without bothering to explain what exactly it is, or what an individual is supposed to do with it. Maybe it's the 2 main devs driving the direction of eve that's the problem, both of whom just seem to ignore the majority of players. Whatever the reason, 4 players I have introduced to the game all quit within weeks because of the mechanics and bullshit surrounding the game and corps. I have pretty much the same thing to say to you: That has been EVE since day 1 in 2003... Literally the only thing that has changed in the past 13 years is that CCP is finally trying to listen to you and provide more content and more safety... Sure they kind of suck at it...but again they always have...since 2003.... So...what did you really expect when you joined the game? edit: And where did that expectation come from - because it certainly wasn't based on anything in the game or in reality...
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 270	Posted - 2016.07.22 11:57:05 - [145] - Quote To both of you, and everyone like you, a brief disclaimer: I'm not even disagreeing with you that the system is broken. I know you are right, and this is why a lot of people leave EVE. So please don't feel the need to defend that. I get that part, and as I say I agree. I just don't think the solution is as simple as you seem to think it is... And I'm not sure you realize that this isn't some new thing...this is just...EVE...
Sexy Cakes Have A Seat 1096	Posted - 2016.07.22 12:00:14 - [146] - Quote Judaa K'Marr wrote: I hated the exploration changes as well. It was especially confusing since in this game where the standard of PVE is such a well known joke, exploration was on the one area of PVE that approached being fun and interesting, and for some reason CCP decided it was in need of nonstop meddling and dumbing down. Someone in corp getting a 10/10 would be an event. The massive drop from 6/10 was like winning the lottery. Now it's all a bit meh. It wouldn't be such a joke if they would follow up on the changes they implement. I can remember CCP Affinity really seeming like she wanted to get it right and collecting feedback. I assume she got pulled off her PvE station and got other **** thrown on her desk by someone higher up. That usually seems like the case once we hear about the CCP screwups when the financial's used to get reported lol. Not today spaghetti.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13817	Posted - 2016.07.22 12:00:24 - [147] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: I think wardec mechanisms must be changed. Now you can just grief with it, people drop corp and they are invulnerable then. So the war should come only to those who really will fight. Military Sections for corporations or different player corporation types maybe? You will not get more kills, or less, but people will be less pissed off by it. The saddest part is that it is probably only a matter of time before CCP breaks down and makes combat 100% optional for you... My question, however, is: Why do people with this opinion play the game now - when such changes haven't been made? And why do you seem to suffer the delusion that EVE was ever some wonderful peaceful Utopia where big mean bullies couldn't pick on poor unarmed noobs like you? Stay on topic for petes sake. We want more players right? Everyone must be wardeckable and must be open for griefeing in high sec, right? What about NPC corps? What about people who would want to have their own corp but dont want to be wardeced like NPC corps? Game is giving them middle finger now. But people are in NPC corps and can always go to low sec if they want and attack people there, not in high sec. So what is your point? High sec is a safe heaven (as safe as it gets) for a lot of people. Why do you think majority of people stay in High sec all the time? Are they delusional? Nope, they just like to chill most of the time, or the environment is fitting. If they could, they would really make it more safe, and go to war only when they want, with those who want, such High sec would be a bit better than its now. CCP will have to notice that eventually. It has taken them 13 years - but they are already making changes to accomodate people like you. Ironically, you are complaining more now after their changes to make high-sec safer for you than you complained in the 13 years when there were literally no safeguards in place to protect you in high sec other than a CONCORD who was even slower than they are now..... And I am staying on topic, I'm replying directly to what you are saying and asking legitimate, honest questions. I know why people leave the game after finding out how hostile the modern high-sec is to their play-style......but I honestly don't know why they start playing the game in the first place....Because EVE has literally been like that for 13 years - and the only changes were CCP's attempts to make high-sec safer. Granted CCP certainly failed to make high-sec safer....but perhaps that should be a warning to you as you demand that CCP steps in to do even more... I will not speak for all those players, they have speak up on many accasions themselves in CCP pools. In my case it was a perspective to fly a spaceship and walk in stations. Doing spaceshippy stuff. Ironically, the CCP did not make high sec safer, because they did it wrong way. Even ganking can be removed from the game by making player weapons with safes not to shoot another capsuleers in High sec. CCP cant design good systems for majority of players, they are catering to ilusionary space wikings in null. That is why they cant have more players. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Drago Shouna Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 482	Posted - 2016.07.22 12:02:13 - [148] - Quote I'm not talking about myself so stop with the "you" I'm merely offering an opinion. I do whatever I want to in the game as I learnt a long time ago to have standby alts so in a wardec I just laugh and carry on. But how about addressing the other points? Or are you just interested in more targets rather than any other aspect of the game?
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 270	Posted - 2016.07.22 12:04:49 - [149] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: I will not speak for all those players, they have speak up on many accasions themselves in CCP pools. In my case it was a perspective to fly a spaceship and walk in stations. Doing spaceshippy stuff. Ironically, the CCP did not make high sec safer, because they did it wrong way. Even ganking can be removed from the game by making player weapons with safes not to shoot another capsuleers in High sec. CCP cant design good systems for majority of players, they are catering to ilusionary space wikings in null. That is why they cant have more players. Well believe it or not they really do seem to be trying to accomodate you - and as slow/bumpy as the road may be, this is actually much faster/smoother than most EVE changes have historically been. Only time will tell - but I suspect in a few years they may get EVE close to the state you want it in. Give them some time and see how it goes.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 270	Posted - 2016.07.22 12:07:45 - [150] - Quote Drago Shouna wrote: I'm not talking about myself so stop with the "you" I'm merely offering an opinion. I do whatever I want to in the game as I learnt a long time ago to have standby alts so in a wardec I just laugh and carry on. But how about addressing the other points? Or are you just interested in more targets rather than any other aspect of the game? I was addressing the other points as well. PvE in EVE has always been a joke. Until the past couple of years we didn't even have the events. It was literally just the same canned missions/anomalies/etc from 2003....Pathetic as the modern additions are....they are competing with nothing whatsoever....so it is "progress" CCP has never explained their updates, and historically they have always been half-finished and buggy. You are lucky, because the past few years have again seen drastic improvements in that department. You can imagine some glorious golden past all you want - but the past few years have seen more game development done better than ever before in EVE's history... edit: Semi-Unrelated side-note: I personally don't much care for the direction EVE is heading - this is why I have unsubscribed. However, I'm not saying they don't need to go there to survive. I can see how far the game has fallen into chaos and abuse with the current mechanics - and I don't particularly enjoy the blanket-dec or ganking environment myself, even though it doesn't directly affect me. Something has to change - and CCP is changing it. I honestly think if you just hang in there and give them a few more years they'll bring the game into the modern age and it will be a lot better for most players.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13817	Posted - 2016.07.22 12:16:13 - [151] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: I will not speak for all those players, they have speak up on many accasions themselves in CCP pools. In my case it was a perspective to fly a spaceship and walk in stations. Doing spaceshippy stuff. Ironically, the CCP did not make high sec safer, because they did it wrong way. Even ganking can be removed from the game by making player weapons with safes not to shoot another capsuleers in High sec. CCP cant design good systems for majority of players, they are catering to ilusionary space wikings in null. That is why they cant have more players. Well believe it or not they really do seem to be trying to accomodate you - and as slow/bumpy as the road may be, this is actually much faster/smoother than most EVE changes have historically been. Only time will tell - but I suspect in a few years they may get EVE close to the state you want it in. Give them some time and see how it goes. Half assed attempts to keep the spirit of EVE in majority to satisfy current players. CCP was always afraid they will lose the precious few pleyers they had, so they made only small iterations. That speeds up the process of consolidating around the system flaws and removes those who see them clearly and dont agree with sitiation its heading into. Spirit of EVE was always this harsh one. CCP could not separate it to null sec, they always wanted everyone to move to null because of big space battles and once in a while a news header. You could see that they did when the war broke up. There was player surge, but it dropped again when the war was over. A small succes, shortlived. CCP was fixated on wrong things all those 13 years to talk about more players now. Game has reputation of being overly cruel to common carebear, so they will not have those other players that only in option give something about wardecs and wars. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 270	Posted - 2016.07.22 12:26:04 - [152] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Half assed attempts to keep the spirit of EVE in majority to satisfy current players. CCP was always afraid they will lose the precious few pleyers they had, so they made only small iterations. That speeds up the process of consolidating around the system flaws and removes those who see them clearly and dont agree with sitiation its heading into. Spirit of EVE was always this harsh one. CCP could not separate it to null sec, they always wanted everyone to move to null because of big space battles and once in a while a news header. You could see that they did when the war broke up. There was player surge, but it dropped again when the war was over. A small succes, shortlived. CCP was fixated on wrong things all those 13 years to talk about more players now. Game has reputation of being overly cruel to common carebear, so they will not have those other players that only in option give something about wardecs and wars. I think they may have finally given up on trying to hold on to their original player-base - at least outside of 0.0, and possibly even there soon.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13817	Posted - 2016.07.22 12:29:07 - [153] - Quote No, I dont believe even wardec changes that will come, will bring new kind of players, but they will make stay some a bit longer. Nothing can help to bring new kind of players to this game. Current game market is even against it. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Drago Shouna Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 482	Posted - 2016.07.22 12:49:05 - [154] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Drago Shouna wrote: I'm not talking about myself so stop with the "you" I'm merely offering an opinion. I do whatever I want to in the game as I learnt a long time ago to have standby alts so in a wardec I just laugh and carry on. But how about addressing the other points? Or are you just interested in more targets rather than any other aspect of the game? I was addressing the other points as well. PvE in EVE has always been a joke. Until the past couple of years we didn't even have the events. It was literally just the same canned missions/anomalies/etc from 2003....Pathetic as the modern additions are....they are competing with nothing whatsoever....so it is "progress" CCP has never explained their updates, and historically they have always been half-finished and buggy. You are lucky, because the past few years have again seen drastic improvements in that department. You can imagine some glorious golden past all you want - but the past few years have seen more game development done better than ever before in EVE's history... edit: Semi-Unrelated side-note: I personally don't much care for the direction EVE is heading - this is why I have unsubscribed. However, I'm not saying they don't need to go there to survive. I can see how far the game has fallen into chaos and abuse with the current mechanics - and I don't particularly enjoy the blanket-dec or ganking environment myself, even though it doesn't directly affect me. Something has to change - and CCP is changing it. I honestly think if you just hang in there and give them a few more years they'll bring the game into the modern age and it will be a lot better for most players. I'm not imaging some golden past as I have only been here for 4 years and a few months, but in that time one thing is a blazing fact, and that is that the player base has seen a constant decline despite all the updates. It's still declining albeit at a slower pace. One thing is clear though, there is one recurring theme in that all time, that "appears" to be one of the main things behind the decline. I came close to un-subbing recently myself, I even re-activated my WoW and Dofus accounts but decided to wait for the Citadel expansion. It promised a lot but inevitably offered virtually nothing to myself as a Miner/Industrialist/Explorer and Mission runner, so now I'm stuck waiting for the next iteration of it, will it offer me something or will it be another let down? Time will tell I suppose.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 270	Posted - 2016.07.22 12:49:25 - [155] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: No, I dont believe even wardec changes that will come, will bring new kind of players, but they will make stay some a bit longer. Nothing can help to bring new kind of players to this game. Current game market is even against it. Time will tell - but if they keep trying to ride the fence EVE may just finally die. I mean people like me are quitting now because they are making changes to appeal to the modern gamer....If the modern gamers also quit because they drag their feet or just can't make the game appealing they aren't going to be left with much...
Flitz Farseeker Mass HaVoK KAOS Unlimited 29	Posted - 2016.07.22 12:53:06 - [156] - Quote [pedant on] If there really were less players every year then the peak number of users would have been in the first year of the game, which is not the case and can be clearly seen in various graphs including the one on eve-offline.net. [pedant off] Possible reasons numbers are down at the moment include summer holidays, Pokemon Go and the Donald.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13817	Posted - 2016.07.22 12:56:14 - [157] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: No, I dont believe even wardec changes that will come, will bring new kind of players, but they will make stay some a bit longer. Nothing can help to bring new kind of players to this game. Current game market is even against it. Time will tell - but if they keep trying to ride the fence EVE may just finally die. I mean people like me are quitting now because they are making changes to appeal to the modern gamer....If the modern gamers also quit because they drag their feet or just can't make the game appealing they aren't going to be left with much... Problem with all games that try to combine all PvE and PvP. You cant satisfy one part without the other if you keep them too close. Separating them but still keeping the ties that they like is a hard thing. CCP in their atempts tried to make it. We still play this game is not a complete failure from them. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Drago Shouna Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 482	Posted - 2016.07.22 12:59:37 - [158] - Quote Flitz Farseeker wrote: [pedant on] If there really were less players every year then the peak number of users would have been in the first year of the game, which is not the case and can be clearly seen in various graphs including the one on eve-offline.net. [pedant off] Possible reasons numbers are down at the moment include summer holidays, Pokemon Go and the Donald. Nope it's nothing to do with any of that. When I started playing in 2012 there was nearly always 50k+ players on at most times of the day, now we struggle to see a regular 20k+ online even at peak times. Even the stats from CCP show a big decline in users.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 270	Posted - 2016.07.22 13:08:36 - [159] - Quote Drago Shouna wrote: Flitz Farseeker wrote: [pedant on] If there really were less players every year then the peak number of users would have been in the first year of the game, which is not the case and can be clearly seen in various graphs including the one on eve-offline.net. [pedant off] Possible reasons numbers are down at the moment include summer holidays, Pokemon Go and the Donald. Nope it's nothing to do with any of that. When I started playing in 2012 there was nearly always 50k+ players on at most times of the day, now we struggle to see a regular 20k+ online even at peak times. Even the stats from CCP show a big decline in users. Interestingly the peak came in early 2013 - just before they doubled down and re-released micro-transactions into the game and began their modern development plan/cycle.... A paranoid person might think it was related...
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13817	Posted - 2016.07.22 13:25:27 - [160] - Quote Another matter is their attempts to milk everyone with these things like skins and clothing, skins are not worth as much for a player to give out such money on them. And they are not customizable. Only for particular hull. I was never a fan of the implementation, and I dont see much people who are. Same was with Incarna. Maybe we can see a pattern there is. Players wait for something, and when its not what they wanted (CCP to blame for not keeping up to the word like with demos on fanfests), they leave en masse. Only those who doeasnt really bother with it, stay. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Nitshe Razvedka 1017	Posted - 2016.07.22 13:32:16 - [161] - Quote In answer to the threads Question = because of Code like behaviour. An Eve life unexamined is not worth living. Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS. Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
Apus Republic University Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2016.07.22 13:34:16 - [162] - Quote Denavit wrote: Is is because PLEX prices, i remember buying them at 550mill, 500mill, now is almost 1bill, or is it because the changes are making oldSchoolers quit? I started at 2004. I have came back several times. This time I created two separate careers, but got bored after about a week. The problem is not lack of skills. The problem is the game itself. For example missions. For over decade the missions have been the same. You would have thought that in a decade they could come up with a new set of missions. But no. You cannot mine due gankers. Nulsec never was the thing for me even that I was there three years. Being docked up at outpost for four hours waiting FC to call 'undock' which never game because they had on more ship than we did.. PVP has changed, but basically it is the same. Blob, blob and blob. Individual playerskill needed: zero. I like the lore. I like the SCIFI in the gaming world. But the game is empty. No content. Too static. Too boring. I say that it would be best just to kill EVE and release EVE 2.0.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13817	Posted - 2016.07.22 13:41:36 - [163] - Quote Quote: For over decade the missions have been the same. One would think they would come up with more variation to spawn and loot in rooms or procedural mission system in general. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
MidnightWyvern Night Theifs Curatores Veritatis Alliance 289	Posted - 2016.07.22 13:51:24 - [164] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Quote: For over decade the missions have been the same. One would think they would come up with more variation to spawn and loot in rooms or procedural mission system in general. The Lore is one of the shinier things here. But I think that EVE 2.0 would be dead on arrival as everyone with closing of EVE will completely lack interest for further playing, so much is attached to this world. If they would keep EVE, everyone would stay here. But they are developing other games in EVE universe. The issue is that whenever they try and make EVE more engaging the neckbeards come out of the woodwork and make dumb threads about how having to actually be active in the game to accomplish things is counter to the "spirit of EVE Online" and is just CCP trying to dumb it down for casuals. Personally, I would be a mission runner if all the NPCs were dangerous and there was some variety in the kinds I could fight. Rattati Senpai noticed us! See you in the next FPS! Alts: Saray Wyvern, Mobius Wyvern (Dust 514)
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 272	Posted - 2016.07.22 13:58:11 - [165] - Quote MidnightWyvern wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Quote: For over decade the missions have been the same. One would think they would come up with more variation to spawn and loot in rooms or procedural mission system in general. The Lore is one of the shinier things here. But I think that EVE 2.0 would be dead on arrival as everyone with closing of EVE will completely lack interest for further playing, so much is attached to this world. If they would keep EVE, everyone would stay here. But they are developing other games in EVE universe. The issue is that whenever they try and make EVE more engaging the neckbeards come out of the woodwork and make dumb threads about how having to actually be active in the game to accomplish things is counter to the "spirit of EVE Online" and is just CCP trying to dumb it down for casuals. Personally, I would be a mission runner if all the NPCs were dangerous and there was some variety in the kinds I could fight. Confirming this is the only issue with EVE. No other problems exist. Ever. Everyone move along...
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13817	Posted - 2016.07.22 14:02:51 - [166] - Quote Actually some poor explorer or I dont know who, could not finish the Sansha War Supply today, because the overseer in last room was too hard for him. For me it would be an incentive to move out and gather more info and come again with better fit, maybe even ship. Things like that would not ever remove anything from gameplay for me. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Mina Sebiestar Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate 1091	Posted - 2016.07.22 14:36:38 - [167] - Quote Game need major update / reboot for numbers to start kicking in again at a healthy levels for everybody. Engine update to support post year 2000 cpu's........... this will never happen. Massive update to ALL things pve not just one part entire new engine that is not so 2003 World of Warcraft but in space.......this will never happen and is overdue almost for like decades now. Procedural generated space /new space........ current mice in a maze gated space is just to archaic and forced mechanic it works tho...but. I remember devs saying this is both pve and pvp game until they stop saying this in favor of pvp(with pve as necessary evil) agenda and that is fine and dandy as long as you don't need pve players....i beg to differ. Attitudes need to be changed. This game was pumping lore out on almost weekly basis ppl were creating stories opening up web pages...eve fiction now is a sad forum sub post....things that happens when game turn it back to users for others there is no smart reason for this. Or not and i am just looking things thru my very own summer / retro version by brand "past times" rose glasses and everything is fine..... which than begs the question .... Where are the people? Soon il start chasing my alt thru new eden pretending i don't know him where are the hordes of players that find game amazing coz i remember this game where systems were not deserted. Why is CCP withholding opening high sec up for grabs? it is only thing stopping all of yal having brilliant time and devs chocking in limos lambos and hookers.just do it. No? not that? what ships are not balanced enough?is it current null magic wand thingy? reverse it back to dominion then until beatching starts AGAIN then roll it back to entosis right?small doses everything goes. Whats with Lo sec bombs you want bombs will that fixit hm?doomsdays?stations are problem?what?hi sec?ccp what are you waiting for? No? Or put your shiet together and see where are you now and were were you see big picture and who play your game...act accordingly. Toss in plex,butthurt,world economy and other crap like calling your users idiots that needed to be deprived their money(here a monocle that cost like all pirate battleships all with fittings.....no no you are not an idiot you are classy) and voila. imo meh just meh these threads. Typhoon Fleet Issue SOE skin for the win.
MidnightWyvern Night Theifs Curatores Veritatis Alliance 292	Posted - 2016.07.22 15:07:20 - [168] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: MidnightWyvern wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Quote: For over decade the missions have been the same. One would think they would come up with more variation to spawn and loot in rooms or procedural mission system in general. The Lore is one of the shinier things here. But I think that EVE 2.0 would be dead on arrival as everyone with closing of EVE will completely lack interest for further playing, so much is attached to this world. If they would keep EVE, everyone would stay here. But they are developing other games in EVE universe. The issue is that whenever they try and make EVE more engaging the neckbeards come out of the woodwork and make dumb threads about how having to actually be active in the game to accomplish things is counter to the "spirit of EVE Online" and is just CCP trying to dumb it down for casuals. Personally, I would be a mission runner if all the NPCs were dangerous and there was some variety in the kinds I could fight. Confirming this is the only issue with EVE. No other problems exist. Ever. Everyone move along... Man, I sure do love people construing my statements in ways I didn't intend. To clarify, my response was specifically a response to the statement about the current state of missions. Trying to make it seem like I was saying that's the only problem in the game is honestly just silly. I really hope you're better than that. Rattati Senpai noticed us! See you in the next FPS! Alts: Saray Wyvern, Mobius Wyvern (Dust 514)
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 273	Posted - 2016.07.22 15:22:41 - [169] - Quote MidnightWyvern wrote: Man, I sure do love people construing my statements in ways I didn't intend. To clarify, my response was specifically a response to the statement about the current state of missions. Trying to make it seem like I was saying that's the only problem in the game is honestly just silly. I really hope you're better than that. Perhaps I'm over-reacting to the fact that every 3-4 posts in this thread (and that is a lot of posts, even just in this 1 thread) the post begins with something along the lines of: "The Problem with EVE is..." "The Primary Problem is..." "The Main Problem is..." etc... And acting like if just that 1 problem was solved things would magically be better. If that was not your intention then I apologize - but as previously stated there are many thousands of major problems with EVE atm, so pointing to any 1 of them as "the problem" for anything is ridiculous.
MidnightWyvern Night Theifs Curatores Veritatis Alliance 292	Posted - 2016.07.22 15:27:01 - [170] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: MidnightWyvern wrote: Man, I sure do love people construing my statements in ways I didn't intend. To clarify, my response was specifically a response to the statement about the current state of missions. Trying to make it seem like I was saying that's the only problem in the game is honestly just silly. I really hope you're better than that. Perhaps I'm over-reacting to the fact that every 3-4 posts in this thread (and that is a lot of posts, even just in this 1 thread) the post begins with something along the lines of: "The Problem with EVE is..." "The Primary Problem is..." "The Main Problem is..." etc... And acting like if just that 1 problem was solved things would magically be better. If that was not your intention then I apologize - but as previously stated there are many thousands of major problems with EVE atm, so pointing to any 1 of them as "the problem" for anything is ridiculous. I agree. The "one step solution" threads irritate me as well. That's part of why while many people love to cry about the current direction of the game, I find it refreshing because it shows they're willing to make the choices that people don't like at first but eventually come to understand and enjoy. I mean, look how many people cried about Aegis Sov until it allowed Imperium's massive empire to be taken apart in barely two months. Now that people have seen large scale warfare can be fun again instead of terminally boring, many of the complainers are now enjoying the new system. I'm hoping that more of the changes they make will have a similar impact and reaction. Sometimes even when people are very resistant to change, forcing them to adapt to it actually improves their experience in the long run. Rattati Senpai noticed us! See you in the next FPS! Alts: Saray Wyvern, Mobius Wyvern (Dust 514)
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13821	Posted - 2016.07.22 15:47:15 - [171] - Quote MidnightWyvern wrote: Sometimes even when people are very resistant to change, forcing them to adapt to it actually improves their experience in the long run. On the other hand there is a thing about CCP that make them nearly scream "my way or highway" with features like ship skins. When bug with ship skins on every hull was called a feature, it was acknowledged by them and never really spoken again about. Meanwhile I had discussions in game about how CCP has failed to deliver something the way they wanted. And the buggy way being the way it should have been from player perspective. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
xxxTRUSTxxx Galactic Rangers EVEolution. 452	Posted - 2016.07.22 16:30:51 - [172] - Quote Bumblefck wrote: xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: accept certain inalienable truths Prices will rise, politicians will philander, you too will get old And when you do, you'll fantasize that when you were young Prices were reasonable, politicians were noble And children respected their elders Baz Luhrmann Anyone who quotes 'Sunscreen' needs to be (space) keel-hauled hahahahahahaha same could be said about these threads.
Toobo Project Fruit House Solyaris Chtonium 29	Posted - 2016.07.22 16:50:40 - [173] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Everyone must be wardeckable and must be open for griefeing in high sec, right? What about NPC corps? What about people who would want to have their own corp but dont want to be wardeced like NPC corps? Game is giving them middle finger now. But people are in NPC corps and can always go to low sec if they want and attack people there, not in high sec. So what is your point? High sec is a safe heaven (as safe as it gets) for a lot of people. Why do you think majority of people stay in High sec all the time? Are they delusional? Nope, they just like to chill most of the time, or the environment is fitting. If they could, they would really make it more safe, and go to war only when they want, with those who want, such High sec would be a bit better than its now. CCP will have to notice that eventually. This is a very debatable point. For me and a lot of other players who've been in game for long time, the fundamental philosophy of EVE is that PVP/risk should never be an 'option' - where you can say 'I don't want it' and avoid it. 'Choosing' to pvp only when you want to do it makes the whole game world change. It breaks the foundation of what EVE is and has always been - that we are living in a cold/harsh universe. With watchlist changes came the mass of blanket war dec everywhere, but you know what? For those who are decced but don't want to fight, it's actually 'easier' to avoid the war deccers. They don't even know you are online - you can do what you want in quiet system and avoid certain routes and hubs, and you can even do mining ops and missions or whatever. But you can't do this AFK or ever be in a 'safe haven'. You will have to watch local, be suspicious of NPC corp pilots around you as they may be scout alts of war deccers, that NPC Corp Machariel off station where you mission could be a bumping Machariel instead of a mission runner, you have to have D-Scan on and watch out for what's coming. You will have to monitor the people who's in local (FFS having local makes life already pretty easy & safe to avoid war targets, compared to WH life). There are so many tools availble in game to help you do what you want while avoiding unwanted PVP (either through war dec or suicide ganks or whatever) in HS. I said this in some other thread before - people do LOTS of PVE in null and WH (mind you, in WH you don't even get local), yet people in HS complain they can't do what they want because of war dec - where war deccers are highly visible on local and generally hang out in well known hubs and routes and now can't even tell whether you are online or not? I'm not saying everyone should embrace PVP - you can play the whole game without ever shooting at another player and still have great time. But for me, EVE has always been a cold harsh world and that DEFINES the game as it is. It forces you to be paranoid and be aware of your surroundings, and use all tools available to survive and persist. You take that philosophy away from the game by making PVP 'optional' or make a completely 'safe haven' where people can be safe without needing to think/be aware of what's happening around them - that is not EVE anymore. I'm not saying that will be a terrible game or whatever - there may be market for it and some players may like that., but that just isn't EVE. Toobo is a lucky talisman. Try Toobo's lucky referral link at the awesome iwantisk website and have a great time http://www.iwantisk.com/?ref=1216023697 Remeber - you win by luck and lose by luck. Don't go crazy. ;)
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13821	Posted - 2016.07.22 17:12:09 - [174] - Quote Toobo wrote: PVP/risk should never be an 'option' - where you can say 'I don't want it' and avoid it. But it was always like that, you could avoid wardecs by being in NPC corp. Whats to debate then. Extending it to player corporations, making it an option would change nothing really, only some players would declare their corporations as carebearish as its possible in high. And in Null and Low these restrictions would not matter at all like today. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
MidnightWyvern Night Theifs Curatores Veritatis Alliance 292	Posted - 2016.07.22 17:16:45 - [175] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: MidnightWyvern wrote: Sometimes even when people are very resistant to change, forcing them to adapt to it actually improves their experience in the long run. On the other hand there is a thing about CCP that make them nearly scream "my way or highway" with features like ship skins. When bug with ship skins on every hull was called a feature, it was acknowledged by them and never really spoken again about. Meanwhile I had discussions in game about how CCP has failed to deliver something the way they wanted. And the buggy way being the way it should have been from player perspective. I'm hoping the end of DX9 support will finally let them give us something like the custom skinning interface they showed during the Art Panel back in 2014. If you think about it, they could use a Layer system that allows players to make complex designs but at the cost of increasing how much AURUM it will take to produce the license at the end of the process. That way you could do a simple two-tone paint job for fairly cheap, or you could make your ship look completely unique if you have more cash to throw at it. Rattati Senpai noticed us! See you in the next FPS! Alts: Saray Wyvern, Mobius Wyvern (Dust 514)
Toobo Project Fruit House Solyaris Chtonium 29	Posted - 2016.07.22 17:21:54 - [176] - Quote Just to add a bit of annecdote - I have an out of corp mission baiting toon that has quite nice Marauder kills. But more memorable moment than those shiny kills was when I baited a missioning Golem, and he had heavy neuts on spare highs and a scram fitted and I got totally pwned by the HS mission runner. Marauders are so efficient and uber for HS missions that you can easily fit neuts and scram on them without sacrificing DPS or Tank. It's just one example. There are so many more you can do to avoid unwanted pvp/gank - either by fitting to fight back or by being aware of what's happening in your system so you can bail before threats arrive. There is really no need to make high sec 'safer' bu any mechanics change. You just need to use the same tools and know how the hunters use. Toobo is a lucky talisman. Try Toobo's lucky referral link at the awesome iwantisk website and have a great time http://www.iwantisk.com/?ref=1216023697 Remeber - you win by luck and lose by luck. Don't go crazy. ;)
Toobo Project Fruit House Solyaris Chtonium 30	Posted - 2016.07.22 17:28:03 - [177] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Toobo wrote: PVP/risk should never be an 'option' - where you can say 'I don't want it' and avoid it. But it was always like that, you could avoid wardecs by being in NPC corp. Whats to debate then. Extending it to player corporations, making it an option would change nothing really, only some players would declare their corporations as carebearish as its possible in high. And in Null and Low these restrictions would not matter at all like today. That is a possibility, but then same restrictions as NPC corps should apply. No corp bookmark, no corp hangar/wallet division, no private offices, same TAX as thr NPC corps, can't anchor POS or Citadel, etc. If all conditions are same, and there is absolutely no benefit over being in undeccable NPC corp, I can accept such undeccable player corps. If there is going to be ANY benefit whatsoever to be in such a player corp that a NPC corp doesn't have, then it should come with risk/drawbacks. Toobo is a lucky talisman. Try Toobo's lucky referral link at the awesome iwantisk website and have a great time http://www.iwantisk.com/?ref=1216023697 Remeber - you win by luck and lose by luck. Don't go crazy. ;)
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13821	Posted - 2016.07.22 17:28:33 - [178] - Quote Toobo wrote: Just to add a bit of annecdote - I have an out of corp mission baiting toon that has quite nice Marauder kills. But more memorable moment than those shiny kills was when I baited a missioning Golem, and he had heavy neuts on spare highs and a scram fitted and I got totally pwned by the HS mission runner. Marauders are so efficient and uber for HS missions that you can easily fit neuts and scram on them without sacrificing DPS or Tank. It's just one example. There are so many more you can do to avoid unwanted pvp/gank - either by fitting to fight back or by being aware of what's happening in your system so you can bail before threats arrive. There is really no need to make high sec 'safer' bu any mechanics change. You just need to use the same tools and know how the hunters use. Tell that to every player who dont want to PvP being in mining corporation, flying one month old toon, in a retriever or something. Always he could be ganked by CODE, but that would change with a ban of activating weapons on ships without war target flag in high sec. They would PvP against asteroids all their soul desires. Then when bored, they could try something else, in their pace. Trying to force feed someone who dont want it, will make him puke it out on you and leaving. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Toobo Project Fruit House Solyaris Chtonium 30	Posted - 2016.07.22 17:53:30 - [179] - Quote Nana, I see what you mean and it does make sense in terms of retaining/growing player base. It is a sensible suggestion to make it easier for new players to learn and adapt at their own pace and commitment. But I'm not sure about how it would benefit the game in fundamental ways. What would having 10,000 more players logged on in HS that you cannot shoot do to the game? More uninterupted supply of minerals? More uninterupted ISK faucet with uber bling fit mission ships? Or would the market increase balance such things out? If we cannot shoot them, or disturb their operation in such 'safe haven', how does that place and community integrate with EVE universe and the existing player base? I can see it working to increse the player base overall, but just not sure how that would help the game if they are so secluded from the core element of risk & danger in this game. If such path were to be considered, one wild idea I can imagine is introducing non-pod pilot citezens/characters into the game - e.g. 'Civilians' that are actually protected by Concord and have different career path and game play than being combat pilots. I would love that new dimension actually, but as things stand, unless such significant changes are made, people who fly space ships in EVE should be able to get shot :p Toobo is a lucky talisman. Try Toobo's lucky referral link at the awesome iwantisk website and have a great time http://www.iwantisk.com/?ref=1216023697 Remeber - you win by luck and lose by luck. Don't go crazy. ;)
Tipa Riot Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 2697	Posted - 2016.07.22 17:54:09 - [180] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Toobo wrote: Just to add a bit of annecdote - I have an out of corp mission baiting toon that has quite nice Marauder kills. But more memorable moment than those shiny kills was when I baited a missioning Golem, and he had heavy neuts on spare highs and a scram fitted and I got totally pwned by the HS mission runner. Marauders are so efficient and uber for HS missions that you can easily fit neuts and scram on them without sacrificing DPS or Tank. It's just one example. There are so many more you can do to avoid unwanted pvp/gank - either by fitting to fight back or by being aware of what's happening in your system so you can bail before threats arrive. There is really no need to make high sec 'safer' bu any mechanics change. You just need to use the same tools and know how the hunters use. Tell that to every player who dont want to PvP being in mining corporation, flying one month old toon, in a retriever or something. Always he could be ganked by CODE, but that would change with a ban of activating weapons on ships without war target flag in high sec. They would PvP against asteroids all their soul desires. Then when bored, they could try something else, in their pace. Trying to force feed someone who dont want it, will make him puke it out on you and leaving. You can totally and easily avoid being killed in EvE doing almost any activity (except combat PvP of course ... lol), with a minimum of awareness and knowledge. All who whine about being ganked over and over again are just too lazy or stupid to play this game ... sorry, but this is the truth. I'm my own NPC alt.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13822	Posted - 2016.07.22 17:58:00 - [181] - Quote Tipa Riot wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Toobo wrote: Just to add a bit of annecdote - I have an out of corp mission baiting toon that has quite nice Marauder kills. But more memorable moment than those shiny kills was when I baited a missioning Golem, and he had heavy neuts on spare highs and a scram fitted and I got totally pwned by the HS mission runner. Marauders are so efficient and uber for HS missions that you can easily fit neuts and scram on them without sacrificing DPS or Tank. It's just one example. There are so many more you can do to avoid unwanted pvp/gank - either by fitting to fight back or by being aware of what's happening in your system so you can bail before threats arrive. There is really no need to make high sec 'safer' bu any mechanics change. You just need to use the same tools and know how the hunters use. Tell that to every player who dont want to PvP being in mining corporation, flying one month old toon, in a retriever or something. Always he could be ganked by CODE, but that would change with a ban of activating weapons on ships without war target flag in high sec. They would PvP against asteroids all their soul desires. Then when bored, they could try something else, in their pace. Trying to force feed someone who dont want it, will make him puke it out on you and leaving. You can totally and easily avoid being killed in EvE doing almost any activity (except combat PvP of course ... lol), with a minimum of awareness and knowledge. All who whine about being ganked over and over again are just too lazy or stupid to play this game ... sorry, but this is the truth. Tell waht you want, but PvP is coming for you now even when you dont want it. Its more about consensual/nonconsensual change of direction. But all those changes even to make high fool and pvp proof would be like CCP admitting to themselves and to every player who is left, that they were wrong all this time, allowing ganking and wardeccing every player corporation in high sec. That it was bad decision. Developers who decided on that would do that? No. And the fear of losing those who play because its dangerously dangerous to leave station, even when its only a small minority. Well, so much for safe high sec then... You will see this game staying EVE for eternity, and with small playerbase. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Kaivarian Coste Beyond Imports and Exports 79	Posted - 2016.07.22 17:59:33 - [182] - Quote TBH, I think the game itself is better than it was when I first started some years ago. But yeah, mission running needs some major work. I absolutely refuse to do missions. Maybe replace some missions with tasks that give the player some room to find their own solutions e.g. retrieve some gizmo which can be dropped by belt rats, found in hacking sites or bought off the market.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13822	Posted - 2016.07.22 18:19:25 - [183] - Quote HTFU or leave, that was the answer for many years for every problem EVE had. Seems there was never too much those who HTFU. But those who stayed are hardened enough to stand everything but probably not ungankable ships in HS and unwardecable player corporations. Seems somewhat ironic. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4973	Posted - 2016.07.22 18:28:20 - [184] - Quote Kaivarian Coste wrote: TBH, I think the game itself is better than it was when I first started some years ago. But yeah, mission running needs some major work. I absolutely refuse to do missions. Maybe replace some missions with tasks that give the player some room to find their own solutions e.g. retrieve some gizmo which can be dropped by belt rats, found in hacking sites or bought off the market. I've always hated missions. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Chewytowel Haklar Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 221	Posted - 2016.07.22 18:32:46 - [185] - Quote Just imagine if EVE went free to play. You might start off with almost no skill points, have less passive skill point gain or none, but it would provide a huge influx of players into the game. Not only that but every single time a game uses a free to play hybrid model (at least with larger titles I've seen) it boosts income substantially. The time for free to play is now.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13822	Posted - 2016.07.22 18:56:09 - [186] - Quote Maybe we are already behind the specific event horizon and everything new they will try wil only make things worse. It will not make new players because of game reputation, and it will cause leaving of the old ones because it doesnt fit their HTFU mood. Either way, I wil be here to watch that. Because of reasons. I promised myself I will be here to the end, no matter what. I will not abandon the ship I flied so long. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 18	Posted - 2016.07.22 19:09:29 - [187] - Quote Geronimo McVain wrote: First problem is that CCP is loosing player because they can't get a grip on eve. Eve is so complex that you really need to spoon feed new players. I would start with a whole story which puts the new player through a serie of missions that will teach him the basics. The career agents don't do this there is no story that puts it all together and doing something once in such a complex game will just overwhelm new players. The "story" of EVE is long, complex and amended to every day because it is not a fixed story written by CCP but an evolving story created by players. How do you present this in a tutorial? Geronimo McVain wrote: Second is that Eve is a PC game. 75% of the sold games are console games so the basic idea of Dust wasn't bad but you need to get Eve on Consoles which would need a whole new UI something that it really needs on PC too. So, in your words, EVE should be something else that does not at all resemble EVE? Why not go find that game instead?
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26349	Posted - 2016.07.22 19:26:21 - [188] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Tell that to every player who dont want to PvP being in mining corporation, flying one month old toon, in a retriever or something. Why are they playing a game like Eve, which is explicitly marketed as a PvP game, if they don't want to play a PvP game? Quote: Always he could be ganked by CODE, but that would change with a ban of activating weapons on ships without war target flag in high sec. Hiding in an NPC corp to avoid wardecs is no guarentee of PvP not happening to you. Removing the ability to activate weapons on another player in hisec without a PvP flag will hopefully never happen; if it does it'll affect the game in many ways, none of them good. Quote: They would PvP against asteroids all their soul desires. Then when bored, they could try something else, in their pace That's a PvE activity, it doesn't become PvP unless you're directly competing with another player for the same rock or until the minerals, or goods produced with the minerals, hit the market. Quote: Trying to force feed someone who dont want it, will make him puke it out on you and leaving. There's no force about it, if people fail to realise that PvP can happen to them at any time, for any or no reason then that's their problem, it's not like the advertising suggests that you'll be left in peace to carry out your activities despite it being a PvP game. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 18	Posted - 2016.07.22 19:28:42 - [189] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Well, so much for safe high sec then... You will see this game staying EVE for eternity, and with small playerbase. Ok, this sounds good to me. Why do we need all the extra players in a Multiplayer game that want it to be a solo game anyway?
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13831	Posted - 2016.07.22 19:41:05 - [190] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Tell that to every player who dont want to PvP being in mining corporation, flying one month old toon, in a retriever or something. Why are they playing a game like Eve, which is explicitly marketed as a PvP game, if they don't want to play a PvP game? Quote: Always he could be ganked by CODE, but that would change with a ban of activating weapons on ships without war target flag in high sec. Hiding in an NPC corp to avoid wardecs is no guarentee of PvP not happening to you. Removing the ability to activate weapons on another player in hisec without a PvP flag will hopefully never happen; if it does it'll affect the game in many ways, none of them good. Quote: They would PvP against asteroids all their soul desires. Then when bored, they could try something else, in their pace That's a PvE activity, it doesn't become PvP unless you're directly competing with another player for the same rock or until the minerals, or goods produced with the minerals, hit the market. Quote: Trying to force feed someone who dont want it, will make him puke it out on you and leaving. There's no force about it, if people fail to realise that PvP can happen to them at any time, for any or no reason then that's their problem, it's not like the advertising suggests that you'll be left in peace to carry out your activities despite it being a PvP game. Ha! Here is the problem. Advertising should suggest you will be violated again and again is some cases. Try to advertise that! I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13831	Posted - 2016.07.22 19:50:04 - [191] - Quote Quote: Quote: They would PvP against asteroids all their soul desires. Then when bored, they could try something else, in their pace That's a PvE activity, it doesn't become PvP unless you're directly competing with another player for the same rock or until the minerals, or goods produced with the minerals, hit the market. Its more about being violated during the act of mining. Quote: Quote: Trying to force feed someone who dont want it, will make him puke it out on you and leaving. There's no force about it, if people fail to realise that PvP can happen to them at any time, for any or no reason then that's their problem, it's not like the advertising suggests that you'll be left in peace to carry out your activities despite it being a PvP game. Ha! Here is the problem. Advertising should suggest you will be violated again and again is some cases. Try to advertise that! I honestly dont think many players strictly PvE centric still play this game. If they are, they must by annoyed by some aspects of it, but are able to HTFU. Until they dont. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26351	Posted - 2016.07.22 19:55:41 - [192] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Ha! Here is the problem. Advertising should suggest you will be violated again and again is some cases. Try to advertise that! They do, regularly. For example, the This is Eve trailer features pipe bombing, the Butterfly Effect trailer features a miner being attacked, and the Retribution trailer features opens with Vic, who likes to take out miners. Pretty much every Eve news article that hits the mainstream and gaming press is about somebody getting bent over and screwed without so much as a kiss or some lube. CCP have never hidden the PvP nature of the game, it's quite well known in the general gaming community too. There are other games that are similar to Eve in many respects including the freedom to just pop a cap in someone for any reason; their forums are full of the same kind of topics we see here, "greifers", "unfair", "no content". It's not a problem with the games, or the developers, it's a consumer problem; most consumers don't want that kind of game, hence the term niche gaming, the games only appeal to the few. IMHO CCP is under pressure from investors to push into the more mainstream market in order to garner more profit, if this is the case then I think CCP are doomed to fail of they try to do it with Eve; it's not polished enough, not simple enough, the PvE is dire and the game has a hard earned reputation that they'll find hard to shake off. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13831	Posted - 2016.07.22 20:04:19 - [193] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Ha! Here is the problem. Advertising should suggest you will be violated again and again is some cases. Try to advertise that! They do, regularly. For example, the This is Eve trailer features pipe bombing, the Butterfly Effect trailer features a miner being attacked, and the Retribution trailer features opens with Vic, who likes to take out miners. Pretty much every Eve news article that hits the mainstream and gaming press is about somebody getting bent over and screwed without so much as a kiss or some lube. CCP have never hidden the PvP nature of the game, it's quite well known in the general gaming community too. There are other games that are similar to Eve in many respects including the freedom to just pop a cap in someone for any reason; their forums are full of the same kind of topics we see here, "greifers", "unfair", "no content". It's not a problem with the games, or the developers, it's a consumer problem; most consumers don't want that kind of game, hence the term niche gaming, the games only appeal to the few. So as I stated, not much these players around, but they come around from time to time, being so curious is a sin? You basically say what I have been saying and everybody seems to realize more and more, so why the hell we these topics emerge about losing players or lack of new players. Just accept you will play solo in HTFU game sooner or later. No fresh meat, only hard and veiny, unsuitable for consumption. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Morn Hylund Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 20	Posted - 2016.07.22 20:06:21 - [194] - Quote Numbers are declining. I think if they want to keep Eve alive they need to be aware of their ongoing space genre competition and what is being offered ... such as NoMansSky, Star Citizen, Elite Dangerous, etc. Beg, borrow, or steal some of the ideas and new game play being implemented/introduced in these other space games. That ... or become eventually extinct. I also think we are on the verge of seeing VR technology explode in the game market, and become a common feature for all new game releases - in the coming years. Eve will need to become VR capable.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4975	Posted - 2016.07.22 20:11:06 - [195] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Quote: Quote: They would PvP against asteroids all their soul desires. Then when bored, they could try something else, in their pace That's a PvE activity, it doesn't become PvP unless you're directly competing with another player for the same rock or until the minerals, or goods produced with the minerals, hit the market. Its more about being violated during the act of mining. Quote: Quote: Trying to force feed someone who dont want it, will make him puke it out on you and leaving. There's no force about it, if people fail to realise that PvP can happen to them at any time, for any or no reason then that's their problem, it's not like the advertising suggests that you'll be left in peace to carry out your activities despite it being a PvP game. Ha! Here is the problem. Advertising should suggest you will be violated again and again is some cases. Try to advertise that! I honestly dont think many players strictly PvE centric still play this game. If they are, they must by annoyed by some aspects of it, but are able to HTFU. Until they dont. Violated during the act of mining. Do you know what game you are playing. Once you undock, anywhere, you can be shot. The discussion should end there, IMO, but I doubt you'd be happy with that so let me explain. In HS you can be shot anywhere anytime by anyone...who is willing to accept the consequences of such an action. As such nobody is being violated. Your attitude is wrong based on a faulty understanding of this game. You are safe nowhere. You do have varying degrees of risk, with HS tending to carry the lowest level of risk. The advertising for Eve tells you exactly what you are going to get. When you go to the home page to download the client it says, "Build your Dreams/Wreck their Dreams". Pretty obvious that this is going to be a "harsh" game. When I first downloaded the client and set up a character, I clicked the undock button and fully expected to be shot right then and there. Guess today's new player is a special snowflake. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26353	Posted - 2016.07.22 20:11:13 - [196] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: You basically say what I have been saying and everybody seems to realize more and more, so why the hell we these topics emerge about losing players or lack of new players. Just accept you will play solo in HTFU game sooner or later. No fresh meat, only hard and veiny, unsuitable for consumption. Curiosity is fine, the problem arises when the curious find Eve, find that it's not to their liking and lobby CCP to change the very nature of the game to suit them. I've been PvEing my way around Eve for 7 years, the PvE is banal, outwitting, outrunning, and out thinking others who would like to stop me from doing it is where the fun is. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4975	Posted - 2016.07.22 20:14:39 - [197] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: You basically say what I have been saying and everybody seems to realize more and more, so why the hell we these topics emerge about losing players or lack of new players. Just accept you will play solo in HTFU game sooner or later. No fresh meat, only hard and veiny, unsuitable for consumption. Curiosity is fine, the problem arises when the curious find Eve, find that it's not to their liking and lobby CCP to change the very nature of the game to suit them. I've been PvEing my way around Eve for 7 years, the PvE is banal; outwitting, outrunning, and out thinking other players who would like to stop me from doing it is where the fun is. In other words, Eve is a terrible game...it is the players that make it good. And what those players tend to do is "violating" other players. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13831	Posted - 2016.07.22 20:16:04 - [198] - Quote Quote: IMHO CCP is under pressure from investors to push into the more mainstream market in order to garner more profit, if this is the case then I think CCP are doomed to fail of they try to do it with Eve; it's not polished enough, not simple enough, the PvE is dire and the game has a hard earned reputation that they'll find hard to shake off. Its the same thing over and over again with EVE. That is why they develop new games. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4975	Posted - 2016.07.22 20:21:54 - [199] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Quote: IMHO CCP is under pressure from investors to push into the more mainstream market in order to garner more profit, if this is the case then I think CCP are doomed to fail of they try to do it with Eve; it's not polished enough, not simple enough, the PvE is dire and the game has a hard earned reputation that they'll find hard to shake off. Its the same thing over and over again with EVE. That is why they develop new games. And fail. Every single time. It would seem reasonable to stick with what is...or was working. But hey, clearly I'm stupid as I don't head a company where the number of players logging in is on a downward trend and has been for a couple years now. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13831	Posted - 2016.07.22 20:24:46 - [200] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: In HS you can be shot anywhere anytime by anyone...who is willing to accept the consequences of such an action. As such nobody is being violated. Your attitude is wrong based on a faulty understanding of this game. You are safe nowhere. You do have varying degrees of risk, with HS tending to carry the lowest level of risk. The advertising for Eve tells you exactly what you are going to get. When you go to the home page to download the client it says, "Build your Dreams/Wreck their Dreams". Pretty obvious that this is going to be a "harsh" game. When I first downloaded the client and set up a character, I clicked the undock button and fully expected to be shot right then and there. Guess today's new player is a special snowflake. Meh, just know I do accept danger and do low sec exploration, maybe you think I am a full time carebear with adversity towards danger. I am willing to accept risk if it comes with reward. That is good PvE with potentially becoming PvP, or not, my choosing. What is wrong for me is the ability to grief others. Doent it bother you? How often you are wardeced and being ganked? What do you do all the time? Those who are left dont really bother with it. Those who did left the game. So meh. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13831	Posted - 2016.07.22 20:26:58 - [201] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Quote: IMHO CCP is under pressure from investors to push into the more mainstream market in order to garner more profit, if this is the case then I think CCP are doomed to fail of they try to do it with Eve; it's not polished enough, not simple enough, the PvE is dire and the game has a hard earned reputation that they'll find hard to shake off. Its the same thing over and over again with EVE. That is why they develop new games. And fail. Every single time. It would seem reasonable to stick with what is...or was working. But hey, clearly I'm stupid as I don't head a company where the number of players logging in is on a downward trend and has been for a couple years now. EVE is working, but its working just a litle? Or to its full potential? Where is the ful potential of EVE? In being a prison simulator? I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Geronimo McVain McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc 149	Posted - 2016.07.22 20:47:42 - [202] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Geronimo McVain wrote: First problem is that CCP is loosing player because they can't get a grip on eve. Eve is so complex that you really need to spoon feed new players. I would start with a whole story which puts the new player through a serie of missions that will teach him the basics. The career agents don't do this there is no story that puts it all together and doing something once in such a complex game will just overwhelm new players. The "story" of EVE is long, complex and amended to every day because it is not a fixed story written by CCP but an evolving story created by players. How do you present this in a tutorial? Geronimo McVain wrote: Second is that Eve is a PC game. 75% of the sold games are console games so the basic idea of Dust wasn't bad but you need to get Eve on Consoles which would need a whole new UI something that it really needs on PC too. So, in your words, EVE should be something else that does not at all resemble EVE? Why not go find that game instead? First there no story of Eve but there can be a story that teaches new players the basics of eve. Why is Eve on Consoles not Eve? It's the gameplay that makes Eve not on which device you play it and another interface will will not change it. There are blind players so you are telling me that they don't play the "real" eve because they use a different interface? The future of any game is in constant change while keeping the core intact. If you want to keep Eve as it is you are condemning it to die. Eve's gameplay is unique, so you either love or hate it, but the UI is old and needs a big update
Vic Jefferson Stimulus Rote Kapelle 1052	Posted - 2016.07.22 20:53:17 - [203] - Quote Chewytowel Haklar wrote: Just imagine if EVE went free to play (hybrid with a sub option). You might start off with almost no skill points, have less passive skill point gain or none, but it would provide a huge influx of players into the game. Not only that but every single time a game uses a free to play hybrid model (at least with larger titles I've seen) it boosts income substantially. The time for free to play is now. The industrial, explorer, whatever packs could also inject your character with the necessary skills and be worth it finally :) Free to play is like hard drugs for a game. Sure, the game is madly profitable....for a few months. Name a game that has had a sustainable FTP model. One of EvE's greatest strength is that it is an enduring, persistent game, which is played over years, rather than the latest whale trap out there on the game market. Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4977	Posted - 2016.07.22 20:58:17 - [204] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Quote: IMHO CCP is under pressure from investors to push into the more mainstream market in order to garner more profit, if this is the case then I think CCP are doomed to fail of they try to do it with Eve; it's not polished enough, not simple enough, the PvE is dire and the game has a hard earned reputation that they'll find hard to shake off. Its the same thing over and over again with EVE. That is why they develop new games. And fail. Every single time. It would seem reasonable to stick with what is...or was working. But hey, clearly I'm stupid as I don't head a company where the number of players logging in is on a downward trend and has been for a couple years now. EVE is working, but its working just a litle? Or to its full potential? Where is the ful potential of EVE? In being a prison simulator? Have you seen the trend in the data for players logged in? eve-offline.net. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4977	Posted - 2016.07.22 21:02:00 - [205] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: In HS you can be shot anywhere anytime by anyone...who is willing to accept the consequences of such an action. As such nobody is being violated. Your attitude is wrong based on a faulty understanding of this game. You are safe nowhere. You do have varying degrees of risk, with HS tending to carry the lowest level of risk. The advertising for Eve tells you exactly what you are going to get. When you go to the home page to download the client it says, "Build your Dreams/Wreck their Dreams". Pretty obvious that this is going to be a "harsh" game. When I first downloaded the client and set up a character, I clicked the undock button and fully expected to be shot right then and there. Guess today's new player is a special snowflake. Meh, just know I do accept danger and do low sec exploration, maybe you think I am a full time carebear with adversity towards danger. I am willing to accept risk if it comes with reward. That is good PvE with potentially becoming PvP, or not, my choosing. What is wrong for me is the ability to grief others. Doent it bother you? How often you are wardeced and being ganked? What do you do all the time? Those who are left dont really bother with it. Those who did left the game. So meh. No, not your choosing. If PvP is going to happen it is beyond your control, at least entirely. You can try to dissuade people from shooting you. You can be prepared to GTFO if someone looks like they are going to shoot you. But that's it. Griefing has a definition in this game and it does not include ganking. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 18	Posted - 2016.07.22 21:04:01 - [206] - Quote Geronimo McVain wrote: First there no story of Eve but there can be a story that teaches new players the basics of eve. Why is Eve on Consoles not Eve? It's the gameplay that makes Eve not on which device you play it and another interface will will not change it. There are blind players so you are telling me that they don't play the "real" eve because they use a different interface? The future of any game is in constant change while keeping the core intact. If you want to keep Eve as it is you are condemning it to die. Eve's gameplay is unique, so you either love or hate it, but the UI is old and needs a big update As to the story - https://community.eveonline.com/backstory/ EVE is not a console style game, period. It is and always has been, largely, spreadsheets in space. I think that concept is difficult to successfully transfer to the console environment. The changes being requested and championed ARE changing the core of the game. The game is at CORE a PvP game with no safe areas and with no quarter given. If that is not what one wishes to play then DO NOT play it. I am astounded at how hard this concept seems to be to grasp. If you do not like the basis of the game then play another game.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13831	Posted - 2016.07.22 21:06:25 - [207] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Quote: IMHO CCP is under pressure from investors to push into the more mainstream market in order to garner more profit, if this is the case then I think CCP are doomed to fail of they try to do it with Eve; it's not polished enough, not simple enough, the PvE is dire and the game has a hard earned reputation that they'll find hard to shake off. Its the same thing over and over again with EVE. That is why they develop new games. And fail. Every single time. It would seem reasonable to stick with what is...or was working. But hey, clearly I'm stupid as I don't head a company where the number of players logging in is on a downward trend and has been for a couple years now. EVE is working, but its working just a litle? Or to its full potential? Where is the ful potential of EVE? In being a prison simulator? Have you seen the trend in the data for players logged in? eve-offline.net. Yes, do you have professional analysis of it? I dont, CCP probably know more than you or me. But they will not share. Only actual changes to the game can show what is their intend on removing the trends. Lets be honest, we players know little about developing the games. We dont make a living doing them. They do. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13831	Posted - 2016.07.22 21:24:34 - [208] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: In HS you can be shot anywhere anytime by anyone...who is willing to accept the consequences of such an action. As such nobody is being violated. Your attitude is wrong based on a faulty understanding of this game. You are safe nowhere. You do have varying degrees of risk, with HS tending to carry the lowest level of risk. The advertising for Eve tells you exactly what you are going to get. When you go to the home page to download the client it says, "Build your Dreams/Wreck their Dreams". Pretty obvious that this is going to be a "harsh" game. When I first downloaded the client and set up a character, I clicked the undock button and fully expected to be shot right then and there. Guess today's new player is a special snowflake. Meh, just know I do accept danger and do low sec exploration, maybe you think I am a full time carebear with adversity towards danger. I am willing to accept risk if it comes with reward. That is good PvE with potentially becoming PvP, or not, my choosing. What is wrong for me is the ability to grief others. Doent it bother you? How often you are wardeced and being ganked? What do you do all the time? Those who are left dont really bother with it. Those who did left the game. So meh. No, not your choosing. If PvP is going to happen it is beyond your control, at least entirely. You can try to dissuade people from shooting you. You can be prepared to GTFO if someone looks like they are going to shoot you. But that's it. Griefing has a definition in this game and it does not include ganking. Can't you just tell me to go play other game or get out like everyone thru years? Its not like it would really matter for me, but to keep the tradition. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4977	Posted - 2016.07.22 21:39:51 - [209] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Can't you just tell me to go play other game or get out like everyone thru years? Its not like it would really matter for me, but to keep the tradition. Well if everyone has been telling you what the game is like...why to you stubbornly and obtusely insist on trying to play it as a completely different game? You don't play chess as if it were checkers. You don't play Eve as if it were one of dozes of other games where PvP was essentially consensual. Hell it is right there in the name... Eve or more accurately, EvE as in Everyone vs. Everyone. Edit: BTW, that first one is a serious question. You know what this game is like. You have read the forums. Yet you keep insisting on wanting to make the game something than it was. Why did you even start playing? Serious question...I want to understand the though process here. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13836	Posted - 2016.07.22 22:11:51 - [210] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Can't you just tell me to go play other game or get out like everyone thru years? Its not like it would really matter for me, but to keep the tradition. Well if everyone has been telling you what the game is like...why to you stubbornly and obtusely insist on trying to play it as a completely different game? You don't play chess as if it were checkers. You don't play Eve as if it were one of dozes of other games where PvP was essentially consensual. Hell it is right there in the name... Eve or more accurately, EvE as in Everyone vs. Everyone. Edit: BTW, that first one is a serious question. You know what this game is like. You have read the forums. Yet you keep insisting on wanting to make the game something than it was. Why did you even start playing? Serious question...I want to understand the though process here. The sum of things I like is greater than those I dont like. And its not chess, its not checkers. Its a spaceship game. I played Elite for the same reason. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26356	Posted - 2016.07.22 22:41:42 - [211] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: If I would be interested in strictly PvP game, I would play only shooters, I do have more successes in them than in EVE PvP. Eve is a strictly PvP game, even the PvE is there to enable PvP when you get down to it. That being the case, I hear there's plenty of good shooters out there. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13836	Posted - 2016.07.22 22:51:14 - [212] - Quote You see strictly PvP game, I see spaceships and space and other people. Not all of them want to shoot me. Thank you. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Torbrun Shazih Reavers Cartel 1	Posted - 2016.07.22 23:03:41 - [213] - Quote Eve or more accurately, EvE as in Everyone vs. Everyone. Whilst in your mind Everyone vs Everyone might evoke your interpretation of what the game is meant to be, it doesn't specify that EvE is and should be simply shooting each other in spaceships. Whilst it seems that PVP combat fans cling on to that notion like a protective talisman and seem insistently content to browbeat others with a different outlook, Everyone vs Everyone can just as easily apply to non-combative gameplay and competition in other areas such as industry, trade, resource harvesting, exploration and all the other professions which CCP's own marketing for the game suggests are viable gameplay options. Mining for example might very well be amongst the most boring and derided tasks available in the game, but in my experience, the conversations and easy camaraderie in the mining fleet channels I've been party to have more than compensated, and are certainly more enjoyable than having fleet commanders leading you through countless gates derelict systems and yelping incoherently when their hunter-killer master plans fall flat.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4978	Posted - 2016.07.22 23:05:15 - [214] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Yes, do you have professional analysis of it? I dont, CCP probably know more than you or me. But they will not share. Only actual changes to the game can show what is their intend on removing the trends. Lets be honest, we players know little about developing the games. We dont make a living doing them. They do. Well if that trend continues....not for much longer will they be making a living. I was hoping it would at least level off if not start going up again. It did level off and start rising slightly at the start of the war in the north. People started logging in for the fights. But that can only work for so long it appears as the downward trend is back with a vengance. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4978	Posted - 2016.07.22 23:06:25 - [215] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: You see strictly PvP game, I see spaceships and space and other people. Not all of them want to shoot me. Thank you. Working as intended. Just because player X does not want to shoot your does not mean player Y won't. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26356	Posted - 2016.07.22 23:09:18 - [216] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: You see strictly PvP game, I see spaceships and space and other people. Not all of them want to shoot me. Thank you. PvP goes far deeper than just shooting people in the face , there's very very little that you can do ingame that doesn't involve it. For example anything that involves the market is PvP; pretty much every activity in the game, including the PvE, involves the market at some point. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4978	Posted - 2016.07.22 23:17:06 - [217] - Quote Torbrun Shazih wrote: Eve or more accurately, EvE as in Everyone vs. Everyone. Whilst in your mind Everyone vs Everyone might evoke your interpretation of what the game is meant to be, it doesn't specify that EvE is and should be simply shooting each other in spaceships. Whilst it seems that PVP combat fans cling on to that notion like a protective talisman and seem insistently content to browbeat others with a different outlook, Everyone vs Everyone can just as easily apply to non-combative gameplay and competition in other areas such as industry, trade, resource harvesting, exploration and all the other professions which CCP's own marketing for the game suggests are viable gameplay options. Mining for example might very well be amongst the most boring and derided tasks available in the game, but in my experience, the conversations and easy camaraderie in the mining fleet channels I've been party to have more than compensated, and are certainly more enjoyable than having fleet commanders leading you through countless gates derelict systems and yelping incoherently when their hunter-killer master plans fall flat. Eve is a game about spontaneous order. So yeah, people might not start shooting everything in sight. That's fine. That you can't see past your own little corner and appreciate the examples of spontaneous order is a shame. Let me add, that when some players decide not to shoot each other and do something else...something outside of the game mechanics such as building a coalition, or something like OTEC, or even CODE. That is something that makes Eve unique among games. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26359	Posted - 2016.07.22 23:19:03 - [218] - Quote Torbrun Shazih wrote: Eve or more accurately, EvE as in Everyone vs. Everyone. Whilst in your mind Everyone vs Everyone might evoke your interpretation of what the game is meant to be, it doesn't specify that EvE is and should be simply shooting each other in spaceships. Whilst it seems that PVP combat fans cling on to that notion like a protective talisman and seem insistently content to browbeat others with a different outlook, Everyone vs Everyone can just as easily apply to non-combative gameplay and competition in other areas such as industry, trade, resource harvesting, exploration and all the other professions which CCP's own marketing for the game suggests are viable gameplay options. There's nothing wrong with non combative and cooperative game play, but the people doing it need to realise that others are free to try and stop them from doing so. Eve is described as a sandbox, and it is; everybody can play in the way that they want to, what isn't guaranteed is that they'll be successful, because other players might want to play in a way that disrupts them. Quote: Mining for example might very well be amongst the most boring and derided tasks available in the game, but in my experience, the conversations and easy camaraderie in the mining fleet channels I've been party to have more than compensated, and are certainly more enjoyable than having fleet commanders leading you through countless gates derelict systems and yelping incoherently when their hunter-killer master plans fall flat. Agreed mining is indeed mind numbingly boring as a way of gathering resources, I should know I've done enough of it As you say, what makes it worthwhile is the people you do it with. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4978	Posted - 2016.07.22 23:24:57 - [219] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Torbrun Shazih wrote: [quote]Mining for example might very well be amongst the most boring and derided tasks available in the game, but in my experience, the conversations and easy camaraderie in the mining fleet channels I've been party to have more than compensated, and are certainly more enjoyable than having fleet commanders leading you through countless gates derelict systems and yelping incoherently when their hunter-killer master plans fall flat. Agreed mining is indeed mind numbingly boring as a way of gathering resources, I should know I've done enough of it As you say, what makes it worthwhile is the people you do it with. And again...Eve, a terrible game where the players make it interesting and fun. I don't even begrudge the people who pushed us out of our space up in the North. I had lots of fun fights...and some boring ones. But again, in turn those people sitting in our old systems in Branch...they'll be pushed out too. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26359	Posted - 2016.07.22 23:41:14 - [220] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: And again...Eve, a terrible game where the players make it interesting and fun. So was D&D, but it was huge fun nonetheless. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13838	Posted - 2016.07.22 23:46:48 - [221] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: You see strictly PvP game, I see spaceships and space and other people. Not all of them want to shoot me. Thank you. PvP goes far deeper than just shooting people in the face , there's very very little that you can do ingame that doesn't involve it. For example anything that involves the market is PvP; pretty much every activity in the game, including the PvE, involves the market at some point. Aha.... how many posts are about market recently? Nobody seems to have problem with it somehow. Just saying. Its a thing I like personally. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 19	Posted - 2016.07.22 23:51:26 - [222] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Aha.... how many posts are about market recently? Nobody seems to have problem with it somehow. Just saying. Its a thing I like personally. Excellent. So if someone proposed that constantly monitoring their orders to avoid being .01 sniped was just too much effort and that those .01 snipers should be disallowed because "I'm just a casual player", how would you respond to that?
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13838	Posted - 2016.07.22 23:57:59 - [223] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Aha.... how many posts are about market recently? Nobody seems to have problem with it somehow. Just saying. Its a thing I like personally. Excellent. So if someone proposed that constantly monitoring their orders to avoid being .01 sniped was just too much effort and that those .01 snipers should be disallowed because "I'm just a casual player", how would you respond to that? I would say its a troll. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 19	Posted - 2016.07.23 00:01:54 - [224] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Aha.... how many posts are about market recently? Nobody seems to have problem with it somehow. Just saying. Its a thing I like personally. Excellent. So if someone proposed that constantly monitoring their orders to avoid being .01 sniped was just too much effort and that those .01 snipers should be disallowed because "I'm just a casual player", how would you respond to that? I would say its a troll. Just the same as all the War Dec Is Broken/High Sec=No PvP threads then...
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 22	Posted - 2016.07.23 00:10:23 - [225] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Aha.... how many posts are about market recently? Nobody seems to have problem with it somehow. Just saying. Its a thing I like personally. Excellent. So if someone proposed that constantly monitoring their orders to avoid being .01 sniped was just too much effort and that those .01 snipers should be disallowed because "I'm just a casual player", how would you respond to that? I would say its a troll. Just the same as all the War Dec Is Broken/High Sec=No PvP threads then... I would suggest that the reason you would see this idea as a troll is because it completely breaks the original game design and a fundamental part of the game - a free and *competitive* market. Asking for PvP exclusion zones, corps, golden tokens, etc. breaks another original game design and a fundamental part of them game - it is a PvP game.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4979	Posted - 2016.07.23 00:15:44 - [226] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: You see strictly PvP game, I see spaceships and space and other people. Not all of them want to shoot me. Thank you. PvP goes far deeper than just shooting people in the face , there's very very little that you can do ingame that doesn't involve it. For example anything that involves the market is PvP; pretty much every activity in the game, including the PvE, involves the market at some point. Aha.... how many posts are about market recently? Nobody seems to have problem with it somehow. Just saying. Its a thing I like personally. For two reasons. 1. Alot of the trades are mutually beneficial. 2. When somebody makes a sale you were going to make, i.e. undercuts your price, you don't see the lost sale. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5723	Posted - 2016.07.23 00:46:30 - [227] - Quote Here's my own personal reasons, but I feel I am hardly alone: 1) I joined when I was young(er), a decade does not sound too much but... life happens and suddenly games get less priority. 2) I joined because I love sci-fi games. Back at the time EvE was the one choice (more about this later). 3) I joined because I love PvP games. But EvE's PvP quickly turned up to be a choice between quickly finding fights in a boring blob, or finding neat small scale fights every way, way too long time. I am accustomed playing "premade" teams in other games, where a person may hone their skills and have action and fun all the time as long as they contact another top team. In EvE it's much more complicated than that. After a while, the feeling of having been so good to find a good fight fades, they are too rare. 4) I love twitch / skill games or "full immersion" sims. EvE is a bit... ankward (and mouse clicker game) in the first department and not really immersive, where by "immersion" I mean something like being able to dogfight or micromanage a landing / passing through an hole in a mountain and so on. 5) For a space sim, I always found EvE being SO lacking when it comes to interacting with planets and suns. No planetary walk / exploration worth noting, no real effects coming from very copycat stars. 6) Seeing how PvP was not what I hoped to be, I turned into playing the markets. Made 300 billions years ago and just got... enough. Just by loaning some of that, I make enough PLEXES for an army of alts in interests. I have tried playing "general commander", hiring mercs, making corps fight each against another... in the end it gets boring. 7) Have been to all kinds of sec, done all sorts of stuff and lifestyles except pirating (not my thing, however gate camping can be fun if you know you can get a nice fight. IF.) 8) In general, as it's natural, the more a player plays, the better he gets with a game and he / she finds it easier. CCP added general, tangible dumbing EvE down over time. Therefore, to me, EvE became way too easy to win at. 9) Never ending watering down of lore, ships (and fittings) uniqueness. 10) Getting back to 1 and 2: EVE used to be very time demanding. I recall setting my alarm clock to 3am in order to train my next skills. Same for corporation ops: be it POS bashing or whatever boring, time was set in a way that is incompatible with having a life with responsibilities. Then CCP made a lot of changes and EvE is less demanding now. However there are things that require hours to do and that's it. Some newer sci-fi games are tailored around more practical gameplay, less contiguous time is needed. In some cases you are almost always 5 minutes away from being able to dock, land or whatever and attend your RL obligations. 11) Some key areas never really got beyond a facelift. Basic ships "physics" felt similar to "flying submarine" for a decade. Markets facilities got some fresher looks and some changes but are generally firmly stuck to 2003 mechanics. Production, the big plus of EvE, has always been way too easy to create "best quality" products, no real "personal touch" to enable dedicated industrials to shine. Sure, they can use software / Excel and achieve a super-profitable operation by overloading the markets with zillions of easily made stuff but that's it. OK, getting to make supercaps is a mission in itself, but it takes years. Years of repeat-it-again. I could go on for days listing more factors, in example the 2011-2012 3rd party developers debacle, the $1000 jeans and so on. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13839	Posted - 2016.07.23 05:57:13 - [228] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Aha.... how many posts are about market recently? Nobody seems to have problem with it somehow. Just saying. Its a thing I like personally. Excellent. So if someone proposed that constantly monitoring their orders to avoid being .01 sniped was just too much effort and that those .01 snipers should be disallowed because "I'm just a casual player", how would you respond to that? I would say its a troll. Just the same as all the War Dec Is Broken/High Sec=No PvP threads then... I would suggest that the reason you would see this idea as a troll is because it completely breaks the original game design and a fundamental part of the game - a free and *competitive* market. Asking for PvP exclusion zones, corps, golden tokens, etc. breaks another original game design and a fundamental part of them game - it is a PvP game. No, its not the same. This is another situation. You would not remove all PvP but change only the direction high sec is going with wadcecs and ganking in my case. No ganking in High sec No wardeccing of carebears. I suppose these wil be better changes for all, even for those who PvP because they will at last have to HTFU like everybody PvP centric and move to null and low in search for gud figths. Or they were here only to annoy and grief. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4981	Posted - 2016.07.23 07:00:26 - [229] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: No, its not the same. This is another situation. You would not remove all PvP but change only the direction high sec is going with wadcecs and ganking in my case. No ganking in High sec No wardeccing of carebears. I suppose these wil be better changes for all, even for those who PvP because they will at last have to HTFU like everybody PvP centric and move to null and low in search for gud figths. Or they were here only to annoy and grief. The stories of blanket wardeccing and dank ganks versus a month old noobs are hardly a good lecture. It is absolutely the same. The core of the game has been PvP from day one. You can engage in multiple forms of PvP from day one. Now you want to change it. That is a fundamental shift in the nature of the game. And HS has always had war decs and ganking. Now you want to go whole hog and simple proscribe ganking and war decs. And you suppose these will be better changes. They are the exact opposite of better changes for all. Clearly those who do use war decs and ganking will not be better off. Second, even for those who mine and haul they will have a smaller market because ganking and war decs destroy lots of ships which in turn creates a demand for more ships and modules to replace those destroyed. Further, ganking is usually the result of players being dump. I mean downright dumb. If you put 8 billion ISK worth of stuff in a freighter and run through Niarja without even a scout you are dumb. You took a stupid and foolish risk. A scout could have prevented. A single scout. Not overloading the freighter would make you a less appealing target. Fitting a tank means it will take a bigger fleet to gank you. All of these things can prevent a gank. But nope, a stupid and foolish player should be allowed to be stupid and foolish. Eve has always been a game about choices....and consequences. But you want to take the second part away. Now everyone will max out their freighters for space. We might as well remove the fitting options for freighters and just make them max space. Of course, the price differentials between regions will become very, very small. Because moving stuff between regions in HS will be easy and cheap. I'm sorry, but you just can't see beyond your own narrow vision. A player who is prudent in the current environment can get by just fine. What you are arguing for is making imprudent the norm and even eliminating choice. Your suggestion is the very opposite of what this game is about and it will not make the game better. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13840	Posted - 2016.07.23 07:27:47 - [230] - Quote If only really all those gankers and mercenaries are here for risk free PvP kills. I would admit you are right. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 3437	Posted - 2016.07.23 09:55:26 - [231] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: If only really all those gankers and mercenaries are here for risk free PvP kills. I would admit you are right. In that case EVE is doomed, I tell ya, doomed. And its not the dumb players that are killing it. Its "ELITE" PvP. Be that is it may be, Ganking & Wardecs are very important for a healthy EVE. They are good things for the game. The bad things for the game are not ganking, but the lack of serious fitting options for an industrial, & the lack of interaction. A gank is at most 25 seconds in a 0.5 sector, often more like 15 seconds. The industrial (With the exception of DST which are almost there) can turn hardeners on if they have them, and pray the ganker did the maths wrong. A longer gank timer is needed, Ideally concord spawns are replaced by a remote self destruct so that no NPC spawn lag is caused in larger ganks, and industrials need real fitting options to increase interactions, options & decisions. Then it can be just as fun losing to a gank rather than the present form which feels like a server generated RNG chance every time you jump a gate you might die. (Yes there are things that lessen the odds, but nothing you do can ever remove them) Also Teckos, the victim is not dumb. Unfortunate perhaps, but even in a game lets get away from victim blaming language. If we get in the habit here of blaming the victim it carries over to RL, and at the end of the day, the ganker is the one that chose to pull the trigger. Especially when utterly empty freighters, industrials & shuttles get ganked sometimes just because the ganker is bored and wants to make something go bang.
Dibz Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 81	Posted - 2016.07.23 10:35:03 - [232] - Quote Probably because: 1) There are better PvP games 2) There are better PvE games Currently, there aren't any better space games. But when there are...
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13842	Posted - 2016.07.23 10:42:23 - [233] - Quote Quote: Also Teckos, the victim is not dumb. Of course he is because he dont play the game the way he should. Like Jesus on T-Rex, whooping extatically and praising the CODE of High sec, James, savior of high sec, would say. That was only to satirically underline all of that what has been said. Speaking of, where the hell is he? I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Geronimo McVain McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc 150	Posted - 2016.07.23 13:24:59 - [234] - Quote Denavit wrote: Is is because PLEX prices, i remember buying them at 550mill, 500mill, now is almost 1bill, or is it because the changes are making oldSchoolers quit? Plex prices go up because there are vets that don't blink at 1B Isk. And because you only buy Plex to get Isk there is less Plex on the market when you get high prices which raises the price further. Plex prices are not influenced by CCP but player driven.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26371	Posted - 2016.07.23 14:30:43 - [235] - Quote Geronimo McVain wrote: Plex prices go up because there are vets that don't blink at 1B Isk. And because you only buy Plex to get Isk there is less Plex on the market when you get high prices which raises the price further. Ye gods man, you couldn't be any more wrong if you'd fallen into a swimming pool full of wrongness and swallowed the contents. When PLEX was 300m odd isk it had 3 uses, character transfers, gametime and isk; fast forward to today and PLEX has multiple uses in addition to the original 3, these additional uses include multiple character training, resculpts, exchanging for AUR, tickets for real world events and HD fanfest streams. The price has increased mainly because of the utility that PLEX now has, and the increased demand that that utility causes. Quote: Plex prices are not influenced by CCP but player driven. Wrong again, while players do indeed set the price, CCP have influenced the price by increasing the utility of PLEX (see the above comment) Quote: And wardeccs are a problem because they can run indefinitely. 1 week is an annoyance, 2 week is a pain in the ........ And more lets you drop Corp or Eve. Limiting the time, not the wardeccs per se would help. Yet they're utterly trivial to negate, you've already suggested one possible solution which is to drop corp, there's also rerolling your corp, moving to an out of the way area to avoid the aggressors (which is actually far easier to do now that the watchlist has been changed), allying with the aggressors other war targets and taking them on en masse, etc, etc. The problem with wardecs is far more social in nature than mechanical, although that said wardecs do need looking at, but not in the way that you probably think. Quote: Pvp is a core part of Eve like trade, mining etc. Minning is IMHO okay because you can use a Skiff which is a pain to kill in HS. Freighter or industrials need boni to Ewar which will make ganking much more unreliable. A Skiff is penalised in its main purpose to give survival abilities, some of the industrials can be fitted and used in ways that make them extremely hard to catch let alone kill, once again there is sacrifice involved in other areas such as cargo capacity. Freighters themselves can be fitted for an enormous tank while carrying an enormous amount of cargo, like most capitals they work best with a support fleet; therein lies your e-war bonus. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Geronimo McVain McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc 152	Posted - 2016.07.23 19:30:36 - [236] - Quote I meant "buying Plex with RL money". There can be an increased demand but in the end it makes a huge difference if you get 350M Isk or 1B so you will need much less Plex to get the amount of money you need. The other uses are not really that common at least on old chars that can easily buy the Plex with Isk. The amount of multi char training or resculptering would not need that much Plex to triple the price.
Terminal Insanity Pwn 'N Play Spaceship Samurai 938	Posted - 2016.07.23 19:39:05 - [237] - Quote imo its because we keep punishing the nullsec players and pampering the highsec players. for example, every year concord gets buffed, with faster response, more ecm, etc. gankers are forced to use more ships with bigger guns which kill the target faster bears cry that ccp is somehow making it worse for them, since the gankers are killing them faster ccp buffs concord again other activities have vanished as well, like canflipping. it just doesnt exist anymore. I know, a lot of you will say "but that was horrible those meanies stole my ores!" Right, well, thats why we're bleeding players. Because eve's player base was built on hardcore pvp players, because it was a hardcore pvp game. And now we're changing that, and the hardcore pvp players get disenfranchised and leave. And theres not many carebears coming in to replace them You can find several threads where people demand we remove killmails completely, because they dont like the idea of ever having a record they lost something in the game. It tarnishes their "perfect run". We've got people flying deadspace fit golems in highsec who refuse to ever even consider trying nullsec. And if they ever lose that ship they'll likely quit the game forever. Essentially, we're replacing pvp players with pve players. And tbh theres better games if you're interested only in pve. "War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
Terminal Insanity Pwn 'N Play Spaceship Samurai 938	Posted - 2016.07.23 19:43:40 - [238] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: [You would not remove all PvP but change only the direction high sec is going with wadcecs and ganking in my case. No ganking in High sec No wardeccing of carebears. I suppose these wil be better changes for all, see this ignorance right here? this is why we're bleeding players. When eve was in its prime, did we have pvp-free zones? no. We had weaker concord, and canflipping etc was possible. We've been removing all that. And we're losing players. and your solution is to remove more of that. 'hey guys we did a thing, and we're losing players.... maybe we need to do more of that thing to get the players back!' durrrrrrrrr "War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
000Hunter000 Missiles 'R' Us 80	Posted - 2016.07.23 19:46:57 - [239] - Quote puts on flameresistent suit Mebbe cuz of new playerbase are generally douchy 12 year olds who P2W and try to ruin it for everyone? Not a popular statement i know, but sometimes someone has to say it. Then again, i'm just a grumpy ol' vet, so wth do i know...
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4983	Posted - 2016.07.23 19:47:22 - [240] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: If only really all those gankers and mercenaries are here for risk free PvP kills. I would admit you are right. In that case EVE is doomed, I tell ya, doomed. And its not the dumb players that are killing it. Its "ELITE" PvP. Impose the risk on them. Instead of sitting there like a deer in the headlights. There are far, far more of players getting decced that doing the deccing. I never understood why people getting decced do not team up in cheap T1 ships and go kick some ass. The only way to make sense of it is that the people getting decced by and large have zero interest in PvP in HS or they have zero interest in PvP. I fall into the first category. I have no interest in hunting down the corps/alliances that periodically war dec my alliance. Used to be they know where we lived so they can come find us....of course they don't need a dec for that. Second my alliance leadership does not have any interest in dealing with war decs. We know they will dock up if 50 of us roll in there with a good fleet comp (say 15-20 logi, some tackle, and the rest in DPS ships, a fleet booster, etc.). They know we'll be on comms, be flying doctrine ships for near maximum effect. We have all been doing this a fairly long time. We, as a group, are the last thing they will want to deal with. There would be no fight. They'd bugger off and dock up. We would not give them the fight they are looking for. We know this, so we don't even bother. Then there is second category and these players simply have zero interest in PvP (well shoot each otherGÇÖs ships kind of PvP), at all. These players will never ever engage in ship-to-ship PvP. TheyGÇÖd prefer to dock up and logoff than engage in such game play. There is not much else to be said here. Malcanis had a very good post showing the problem with these players and those using the war dec mechanic. Here is the take away quote, but I really recommend the post, Quote: In short, the issue with war-decs is that they are non-consensual PvP in a way that, for example, a war between two 0.0 alliances isn't. The 0.0 guys may complain about blobs or coalitions or cloaky camping or whatever, but that's just tactics. They're not complaining about the concept of another entity shooting at them at all. Wardecs on the other hand, typically involve a defender who doesn't want to engage in combat PvP at all. How can you reconcile that desire with the desire for other players to play a FFA PvP game? The War Bond addresses the fig-leaf justifications that both sides put up. Deccers constantly complain that defenders can just quite their corps and reform another, risking nothing and losing nothing but a name. Defenders complain that they have no way to use their playstyle to protect themselves, and that the wardeccers commit nothing and take no real risks. So the problem with players that you represent is that they are literally playing the wrong game or do not fully understand the game they are playing. Once again, unlike other MMOs Eve starts with the premise you can shoot another player anywhere at any time provided you are willing to accept the consequences, and in HS those consequences are the steepest on average unless you pay for a war dec. In other words the only way to make the players you represent happy is to destroy the game. To change it from its basic core foundation of, you can shoot another player anywhere at any time provided you are willing to accept the consequences, to one where you cannot. That is a fundamental change. Sure the game might literally still exist, but what Eve is would no longer match what Eve was. That history would no longer apply to the game going forward. HS would become nothing short of farmville in space, which might prolong the life of the game and maybe (although I doubt it) garner more players. But in the end, it would NOT the game from 2003 to now. And the notion this is killing the game is idiotic and stupid because this has been the case for 100% of EveGÇÖs existence. Your view cannot explain the time span from 2003 to 2010 when the game as constantly growing and the GÇ£elite PvPGÇ¥ attitude was there just as much as today. Your view only makes sense in the following way: you are completely myopic and are looking only at recent history and conveniently chop of that part of history that does not fit your narrative. And that makes you dishonest. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Hal Morsh Hmmzor. Muffins of Mayhem 534	Posted - 2016.07.23 19:56:18 - [241] - Quote Kaivarian Coste wrote: Maybe my memory is fuzzy but I seem to recall when PLEX was only 350m. I remember when belts would be stripped bare in most high sec systems. And this wasn't too long ago (maybe 4 or 5 years when I first signed up?) Maybe CODE has a purpose. Omar Alharazaad > Pretty much any time you blow something up in space it's bound to annoy someone or something.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4983	Posted - 2016.07.23 20:19:00 - [242] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: Kaivarian Coste wrote: Maybe my memory is fuzzy but I seem to recall when PLEX was only 350m. I remember when belts would be stripped bare in most high sec systems. And this wasn't too long ago (maybe 4 or 5 years when I first signed up?) Maybe CODE has a purpose. I would argue it does. Impose a cost on imprudent game play. Play prudently you'll not much of a problem with CODE. Play imprudently you will. For example: Prudent play. 1. Do not put everything you own in a cargo-expanded freighter. 2. Do not fly without an escort. 3. Do use standings to set ganking organizations red for ease seeing them in local. 4. Use a scout. 5. Use a scout. 6. If you are hauling a small load but valuable use a blockade runner. 7. Use a scout. 8. Do not use cargo expanders, if you can use bulkheads, yeah it is last ditch but he you don't have to run faster than the bear, just faster than the idiot next to you. 9. Use a scout. Imprudent play: 1. Ignore 1-9, especially the parts about using a scout. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4983	Posted - 2016.07.23 20:23:22 - [243] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Also Teckos, the victim is not dumb. Unfortunate perhaps, but even in a game lets get away from victim blaming language. If we get in the habit here of blaming the victim it carries over to RL, and at the end of the day, the ganker is the one that chose to pull the trigger. Especially when utterly empty freighters, industrials & shuttles get ganked sometimes just because the ganker is bored and wants to make something go bang. Let's look at example of what the overloaded freighter pilot is doing but take it out of Eve. Lets call our pilot: Joe Pilot. Joe has a house worth $250,000 and it is paid off. Joe has $50,000 in the bank. Joe is very fortunate, IMO. So Joe takes his $50,000 and mortgages his house 100% and toddles off to Las Vegas. He takes his $300,000 and puts it on black and it comes up red. Is Joe unfortunate? Well in a sense, I suppose. I would argue that Joe is mother **ing moron. Joe wanted a 100% return on his money but failed to consider the downside risk in that he could also be wiped out with a 0.5 probability. That is how I see the freighter pilot who overloads his freighter (with cargo expanders which reduce his tanking ability) and then sets desto and proceeds to fly there manually without a scout, let alone a webber or any other sort of escort. And he is doing this in a game notorious for people doing bad things to other people who are imprudent. We all point to the exploits of the GHSC. We point to the various pyramid schemes and banking schemes and chortle with glee...maybe even tell our friends about it. But when some schlub presents himself as a ginormous loot pinata weGÇÖre are supposed to say, "Hmmmm....that is not good game play." I'll argue it is the exact same thing. The Guiding Hand Social Club wiped out the group it infiltrated. It took just about everything in the corp hangars and destroyed a very rare ship and podded the pilot. The only difference is one took a lot longer than ganking a freighter, probably because the leader of the alliance GHSC went after was far more prudent than our idiot freighter pilot. And prior to ganking nerfs, I used my freighter all the time. I even used to autopilot back and forth. At that time the best line of defense was "do not overfill your freighter." Rule of thumb was a billion ISK. I was paranoid and kept it well below that usually around 500 million. Was never ganked or bumped. Then came the ganking nerfs aaaaand we get CODE. Now nothing is safe. CODE. will use ransoms, and sometimes just gank for *** and giggles. I think Miniluv does it thinking there is a non-zero probability that they ganking a competitor's freighter/logistics. In other words, I am literally arguing that the nerfs EVERYONE wanted is what has now given you CODE. and much more organized ganking. It is an example of the Law of Unintended Consequences. This is what happens in systems of spontaneous order. Here is another thing about systems of spontaneous order NOBODY IS IN CHARGE. Note even CCP. Sure they can change the mechanics, but the players always have a response up to and including logging off and un-subscribing. As you note, ganking and war decs have been part of the game and are quite likely healthy for this game. The healthy part, I would argue, is in imposing costs on being imprudent. Wherever you see some agency making imprudence easier and/or less costly you see Bad ThingsGäó. IRL we see things like for example, banking panics. In this game, IMO, we see people simply walking away from the game. It is waaaay off topic, but IGÇÖd even argue that what happened in 2007/2008 is not unlike our dimwitted freighter pilot or Joe, but on a much grander scale, for example, not taking into account the correlated nature of the risk they were supposedly insuring against...insuring against uncorrelated risk is easy, correlated risksGÇª.good ***ing luck, so it was imprudence on a grand scale. Fortunately when an imprudent freighter pilot loses his stuff the entire game economy is not threatened. The fundamental changes that people want to implement to prevent imprudent freighter ganking on the other hand does, IMO, threaten the entire game. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4983	Posted - 2016.07.23 20:25:28 - [244] - Quote Actually, the freighter pilot is even dumber than Joe Pilot. Joe is going for 100% return and risking everything. The freighter pilot is going for a much smaller return and risking everything. If you load everything you have in game into your freighter and undock...you are dumb. As far as I am concerned, end of discussion on this point. Feel free to try an argue against it, but I just see how it can be argued as being prudent. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13858	Posted - 2016.07.23 21:36:02 - [245] - Quote Terminal Insanity wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: [You would not remove all PvP but change only the direction high sec is going with wadcecs and ganking in my case. No ganking in High sec No wardeccing of carebears. I suppose these wil be better changes for all, see this ignorance right here? this is why we're bleeding players. When eve was in its prime, did we have pvp-free zones? no. We had weaker concord, and canflipping etc was possible. We've been removing all that. And we're losing players. and your solution is to remove more of that. 'hey guys we did a thing, and we're losing players.... maybe we need to do more of that thing to get the players back!' durrrrrrrrr This is butthurt report. It did not change during all those years. So dont complain that game changed so much in general, when it didnt. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26385	Posted - 2016.07.23 21:44:32 - [246] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: It did not change during all those years. So dont complain that game changed so much in general, when it didnt. That claim, coming from a 15 month old character is laughable. Now post with your main. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4985	Posted - 2016.07.23 21:49:01 - [247] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Quote: Also Teckos, the victim is not dumb. Of course he is because he dont play the game the way he should. Like Jesus on T-Rex, whooping extatically and praising the CODE of High sec, James, savior of high sec, would say. That was only to satirically underline all of that what has been said. Speaking of, where the hell is he? Yes he is bad, not because he should play the game a certain way, but because he took a very high risk for a very low return. It is like picking up nickles on a road just past the summit of a hill where cars travel at 50mph. Most of the time the road is empty, and you can grab some nickles, but that one time you are out there and that car comes...not good. You want to spin it as, "Oh well, he should be able to do that." Yes, he can. Our freighter pilot can be dumb in this game...but at the same time there are those who will take advantage of his foolishness. You just don't get what I'm saying. If you insist on playing stupidly.....fine. Play stupidly. But do NOT come here and whine because you were stupid and somebody took advantage of it. And I "like" CODE. I find their activities annoying. What I find fascinating and interesting is that CODE. is an example of how spontaneous order can give you unexpected outcomes. Everyone sat around saying, "Oh this will end ganking, make ganking less common, blah, blah, blah." Then along comes CODE. and says, "Nope!" Not that I expect your really grasp what I'm saying here. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13858	Posted - 2016.07.23 21:54:01 - [248] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: It did not change during all those years. So dont complain that game changed so much in general, when it didnt. That claim, coming from a 15 month old character is laughable. Now post with your main. Its not about age, its about experience. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4985	Posted - 2016.07.23 21:55:25 - [249] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: It did not change during all those years. So dont complain that game changed so much in general, when it didnt. That claim, coming from a 15 month old character is laughable. Now post with your main. Its not about age, its about experience. It is about understanding the game and how it works. I suspect you do understand the game and just want to change it into something entirely different. Hence your view that ganking and war decs should essentially be removed. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4985	Posted - 2016.07.23 21:57:43 - [250] - Quote Terminal Insanity wrote: imo its because we keep punishing the nullsec players and pampering the highsec players. for example, every year concord gets buffed, with faster response, more ecm, etc. gankers are forced to use more ships with bigger guns which kill the target faster bears cry that ccp is somehow making it worse for them, since the gankers are killing them faster ccp buffs concord again other activities have vanished as well, like canflipping. it just doesnt exist anymore. I know, a lot of you will say "but that was horrible those meanies stole my ores!" Right, well, thats why we're bleeding players. Because eve's player base was built on hardcore pvp players, because it was a hardcore pvp game. And now we're changing that, and the hardcore pvp players get disenfranchised and leave. And theres not many carebears coming in to replace them You can find several threads where people demand we remove killmails completely, because they dont like the idea of ever having a record they lost something in the game. It tarnishes their "perfect run". We've got people flying deadspace fit golems in highsec who refuse to ever even consider trying nullsec. And if they ever lose that ship they'll likely quit the game forever. Essentially, we're replacing pvp players with pve players. And tbh theres better games if you're interested only in pve. Almost like CCP is using a grim trigger strategy and is now stuck in a death spiral...oh and look, players logged in trending right towards zero. Never mind, carry on. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13858	Posted - 2016.07.23 21:58:34 - [251] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Quote: Also Teckos, the victim is not dumb. Of course he is because he dont play the game the way he should. Like Jesus on T-Rex, whooping extatically and praising the CODE of High sec, James, savior of high sec, would say. That was only to satirically underline all of that what has been said. Speaking of, where the hell is he? Yes he is bad, not because he should play the game a certain way, but because he took a very high risk for a very low return. It is like picking up nickles on a road just past the summit of a hill where cars travel at 50mph. Most of the time the road is empty, and you can grab some nickles, but that one time you are out there and that car comes...not good. You want to spin it as, "Oh well, he should be able to do that." Yes, he can. Our freighter pilot can be dumb in this game...but at the same time there are those who will take advantage of his foolishness. You just don't get what I'm saying. If you insist on playing stupidly.....fine. Play stupidly. But do NOT come here and whine because you were stupid and somebody took advantage of it. And I "like" CODE. I find their activities annoying. What I find fascinating and interesting is that CODE. is an example of how spontaneous order can give you unexpected outcomes. Everyone sat around saying, "Oh this will end ganking, make ganking less common, blah, blah, blah." Then along comes CODE. and says, "Nope!" Not that I expect your really grasp what I'm saying here. These are your common gankers, you see them in open world PvP games. What is different, is they have been able to convince you they are something more. And its not their succes ganking is still here, its CCP not wanting to remove it. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26387	Posted - 2016.07.23 22:04:31 - [252] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: It did not change during all those years. So dont complain that game changed so much in general, when it didnt. That claim, coming from a 15 month old character is laughable. Now post with your main. Its not about age, its about experience. I'm not saying otherwise, however it should be fairly obvious that a player with a 15 month old character saying that it hasn't changed in years could be seen as somewhat unqualified to say so, especially if their experience has only been within the lifespan of said character, hence post with your main. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4985	Posted - 2016.07.23 22:05:41 - [253] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Quote: Also Teckos, the victim is not dumb. Of course he is because he dont play the game the way he should. Like Jesus on T-Rex, whooping extatically and praising the CODE of High sec, James, savior of high sec, would say. That was only to satirically underline all of that what has been said. Speaking of, where the hell is he? Yes he is bad, not because he should play the game a certain way, but because he took a very high risk for a very low return. It is like picking up nickles on a road just past the summit of a hill where cars travel at 50mph. Most of the time the road is empty, and you can grab some nickles, but that one time you are out there and that car comes...not good. You want to spin it as, "Oh well, he should be able to do that." Yes, he can. Our freighter pilot can be dumb in this game...but at the same time there are those who will take advantage of his foolishness. You just don't get what I'm saying. If you insist on playing stupidly.....fine. Play stupidly. But do NOT come here and whine because you were stupid and somebody took advantage of it. And I "like" CODE. I find their activities annoying. What I find fascinating and interesting is that CODE. is an example of how spontaneous order can give you unexpected outcomes. Everyone sat around saying, "Oh this will end ganking, make ganking less common, blah, blah, blah." Then along comes CODE. and says, "Nope!" Not that I expect your really grasp what I'm saying here. These are your common gankers, you see themin open world PvP games. What is different, is they have been able to convince you they are something more. Not them you dingbat, the process how they came about is what makes this game so damn intriguing to me. And you want to kill it by changing it at a fundamental level...so that we can't get that kind of process anymore. See you have the incorrect attitude. You see CODE. as an unmitigated bad. You fail to look at the process that produced CODE. A player like Jonah, who by most accounts would be labelled a carebear, but at the same time he accepts that this game is fundamentally a PvP game and that it is up to him to react to that via the choices he makes. He accepts that making bad choices can, and in some cases often do, lead to bad outcomes for himself. I would also guess he would look at those events as a learning experience. He also would not come here and whine about it. I don't like CODE. because of what they do, I like them because of what it means about the game. FYI, I don't consider carebear a derogatory term, when applied to players who do not want to engage in ship-to-ship PvP and want to play on the industrial/"PvE" side of the game. I find that side interesting too, and if that is what a player wants fine, no skin off my nose. **Maybe he'd post if he felt it was an exploit. However, that i a special case and ganking is NOT and exploit. Neither are war decs since CCP put them in the game to begin with. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13858	Posted - 2016.07.23 22:06:58 - [254] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: It did not change during all those years. So dont complain that game changed so much in general, when it didnt. That claim, coming from a 15 month old character is laughable. Now post with your main. Its not about age, its about experience. It is about understanding the game and how it works. I suspect you do understand the game and just want to change it into something entirely different. Hence your view that ganking and war decs should essentially be removed. Of course I know. I have been even wardecced and never complained because I know how things are working here. I have even tried ganking. But Now, I really dont think these things are such meh, I seem to lost my mind or something is really starting to come thru the shell of my ignorancy. Like maybe too much of these complaints around, when you would seem that only HTFU crowd is left after all those years. Something doesnt fit here and I think its image about what game we are playing and who actually wanted to play this game and why. Maybe in the CCP death kneel, they will make one last change to shift things 360 degrees. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4986	Posted - 2016.07.23 22:16:11 - [255] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: It did not change during all those years. So dont complain that game changed so much in general, when it didnt. That claim, coming from a 15 month old character is laughable. Now post with your main. Its not about age, its about experience. It is about understanding the game and how it works. I suspect you do understand the game and just want to change it into something entirely different. Hence your view that ganking and war decs should essentially be removed. Of course I know. I have been even wardecced and never complained because I know how things are working here. I have even tried ganking. But Now, I really dont think these things are such meh, I seem to lost my mind or something is really starting to come thru the shell of my ignorancy. Like maybe too much of these complaints around, when you would seem that only HTFU crowd is left after all those years. Something doesnt fit here and I think its image about what game we are playing and who actually wanted to play this game and why. Maybe in the CCP death kneel, they will make one last change to shift things 360 degrees. First off, number of complaints on the forums mean literally nothing, IMO. You could very well be getting a biased sample. It is like looking at the newspaper and trying to draw general conclusions while ignoring that newspapers are selecting articles that are deliberately designed to sell newspapers--i.e. you got a ***** ** sample so your conclusions should automatically be suspect. Second my guess is the the people who are no longer logging in...they may very well have been the HTFU players. Eve was growing before there was this shift towards things like no more can flipping, making war decs more expensive, and the indirect effect of the watchlist removal. Not to mention things like jump fatigue. These changes, for many players meant that they way they were playing were no longer viable. So they moved on. Now I have ZERO data for this. It is ABSOLUTELY speculation on my part. But then again you have ** all for data too. What we do know, for a fact, is you want to change the fundamental nature of the game. You argue it will make the game better and I'm pointing out that those who like the FFA PvP nature of the game would disagree...and many of those who are still left would leave. So why should we believe you that if we want a FFA PvP game it would be better for us to remove that aspect? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26389	Posted - 2016.07.23 22:16:27 - [256] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: FYI, I don't consider carebear a derogatory term, when applied to players who do not want to engage in ship-to-ship PvP and want to play on the industrial/"PvE" side of the game. I find that side interesting too, and if that is what a player wants fine, no skin off my nose. I do. I demand a Fedo as compensation for the sullying of my name. Quote:* **Maybe he'd post if he felt it was an exploit. However, that i a special case and ganking is NOT and exploit. Neither are war decs since CCP put them in the game to begin with. If I felt it was an exploit I'd petition it, not wail on the forums; my tears are of a fine vintage and not for general consumption. Catch me napping and it's a GF in local. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13858	Posted - 2016.07.23 22:17:41 - [257] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Quote: Also Teckos, the victim is not dumb. Of course he is because he dont play the game the way he should. Like Jesus on T-Rex, whooping extatically and praising the CODE of High sec, James, savior of high sec, would say. That was only to satirically underline all of that what has been said. Speaking of, where the hell is he? Yes he is bad, not because he should play the game a certain way, but because he took a very high risk for a very low return. It is like picking up nickles on a road just past the summit of a hill where cars travel at 50mph. Most of the time the road is empty, and you can grab some nickles, but that one time you are out there and that car comes...not good. You want to spin it as, "Oh well, he should be able to do that." Yes, he can. Our freighter pilot can be dumb in this game...but at the same time there are those who will take advantage of his foolishness. You just don't get what I'm saying. If you insist on playing stupidly.....fine. Play stupidly. But do NOT come here and whine because you were stupid and somebody took advantage of it. And I "like" CODE. I find their activities annoying. What I find fascinating and interesting is that CODE. is an example of how spontaneous order can give you unexpected outcomes. Everyone sat around saying, "Oh this will end ganking, make ganking less common, blah, blah, blah." Then along comes CODE. and says, "Nope!" Not that I expect your really grasp what I'm saying here. These are your common gankers, you see themin open world PvP games. What is different, is they have been able to convince you they are something more. Not them you dingbat, the process how they came about is what makes this game so damn intriguing to me. And you want to kill it by changing it at a fundamental level...so that we can't get that kind of process anymore. See you have the incorrect attitude. You see CODE. as an unmitigated bad. You fail to look at the process that produced CODE. A player like Jonah, who by most accounts would be labelled a carebear, but at the same time he accepts that this game is fundamentally a PvP game and that it is up to him to react to that via the choices he makes. He accepts that making bad choices can, and in some cases often do, lead to bad outcomes for himself. I would also guess he would look at those events as a learning experience. He also would not come here and whine about it. I don't like CODE. because of what they do, I like them because of what it means about the game. FYI, I don't consider carebear a derogatory term, when applied to players who do not want to engage in ship-to-ship PvP and want to play on the industrial/"PvE" side of the game. I find that side interesting too, and if that is what a player wants fine, no skin off my nose. **Maybe he'd post if he felt it was an exploit. However, that i a special case and ganking is NOT and exploit. Neither are war decs since CCP put them in the game to begin with. The process you are referring is called propaganda. And it had and audience that is fitting, gankers. In a open world PvP game. Whats so special? That somebody uses propaganda? Its goonswarm thing. James was from Goonswarm. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4987	Posted - 2016.07.23 22:18:06 - [258] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: FYI, I don't consider carebear a derogatory term, when applied to players who do not want to engage in ship-to-ship PvP and want to play on the industrial/"PvE" side of the game. I find that side interesting too, and if that is what a player wants fine, no skin off my nose. I do. I demand a Fedo as compensation for the sullying of my name. Quote:* **Maybe he'd post if he felt it was an exploit. However, that i a special case and ganking is NOT and exploit. Neither are war decs since CCP put them in the game to begin with. If I felt it was an exploit I'd petition it, not wail on the forums; my tears are of a fine vintage and not for general consumption. Catch me napping and it's a GF in local. Apologies, and good point. And damn funny gif. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13858	Posted - 2016.07.23 22:23:20 - [259] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: What we do know, for a fact, is you want to change the fundamental nature of the game. You argue it will make the game better and I'm pointing out that those who like the FFA PvP nature of the game would disagree...and many of those who are still left would leave. So why should we believe you that if we want a FFA PvP game it would be better for us to remove that aspect? So we will have to wait untill so much people play this game as in 2003 when it started. So big number will probably make them use the alternative option. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4987	Posted - 2016.07.23 22:24:12 - [260] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: The process you are referring is called propaganda. And it had and audience that is fitting, gankers. In a open world PvP game. Whats so special? That somebody uses propaganda? Its goonswarm thing. James was from Goonswarm. No. It is called emergence (which is a real field of study) and spontaneous order. It it something that fascinates me in economics and in this game. See, you just are not getting where I am coming from. I know about James, I personally think he is an arrogant gas bag who loves the sound of his own voice. And when it comes to writing is completely incontinent. And, if James literally quit tomorrow I'm betting CODE. would still be here. As for Goons, I know about Goons. In fact, I have been on both sides of the Goons/anti-Goons conflict. I have been in an alliance that was part of the GBC and then later the Imperium. Goons are also fascinating to me. What makes them so damn formidable is their cohesiveness as a group. The GBC had nothing like it, in fact some members of the GBC and BoB specifically hated other members almost as much as they despised Goons. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13858	Posted - 2016.07.23 22:31:46 - [261] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: The process you are referring is called propaganda. And it had and audience that is fitting, gankers. In a open world PvP game. Whats so special? That somebody uses propaganda? Its goonswarm thing. James was from Goonswarm. No. It is called emergence (which is a real field of study) and spontaneous order. It it something that fascinates me in economics and in this game. See, you just are not getting where I am coming from. I know about James, I personally think he is an arrogant gas bag who loves the sound of his own voice. And when it comes to writing is completely incontinent. And, if James literally quit tomorrow I'm betting CODE. would still be here. As for Goons, I know about Goons. In fact, I have been on both sides of the Goons/anti-Goons conflict. I have been in an alliance that was part of the GBC and then later the Imperium. Goons are also fascinating to me. What makes them so damn formidable is their cohesiveness as a group. The GBC had nothing like it, in fact some members of the GBC and BoB specifically hated other members almost as much as they despised Goons. They are all indoctrinated. And how do you differentiate emergence from finely crafted propaganda, with stories and character, with idea of code of high sec and false prophet styled persona behind it? It was all crafted I tell ya. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4987	Posted - 2016.07.23 22:37:15 - [262] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: What we do know, for a fact, is you want to change the fundamental nature of the game. You argue it will make the game better and I'm pointing out that those who like the FFA PvP nature of the game would disagree...and many of those who are still left would leave. So why should we believe you that if we want a FFA PvP game it would be better for us to remove that aspect? So we will have to wait untill so much people play this game as in 2003 when it started. So big number will probably make them use the alternative option. I think CCP is locked into a strategy that is going to take us to that level of players logged in at this point. They could undo things like watchlists, reduce the cost of war decs and I doubt it would stop the trend. Sometimes you can't go back. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Utremi Fasolasi The Scope Gallente Federation 488	Posted - 2016.07.23 22:39:16 - [263] - Quote Roenok Baalnorn wrote: People went to the F2P market which actually isnt F2P and is more expensive than a sub game. There are people who spend hundreds of dollars A DAY on these games. Literally thousands or tens of thousands even.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26389	Posted - 2016.07.23 22:39:58 - [264] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: The process you are referring is called propaganda. And it had and audience that is fitting, gankers. In a open world PvP game. Whats so special? That somebody uses propaganda? Its goonswarm thing. James was from Goonswarm. No. It is called emergence (which is a real field of study) and spontaneous order. It it something that fascinates me in economics and in this game. See, you just are not getting where I am coming from. I know about James, I personally think he is an arrogant gas bag who loves the sound of his own voice. And when it comes to writing is completely incontinent. And, if James literally quit tomorrow I'm betting CODE. would still be here. As for Goons, I know about Goons. In fact, I have been on both sides of the Goons/anti-Goons conflict. I have been in an alliance that was part of the GBC and then later the Imperium. Goons are also fascinating to me. What makes them so damn formidable is their cohesiveness as a group. The GBC had nothing like it, in fact some members of the GBC and BoB specifically hated other members almost as much as they despised Goons. They are all indoctrinated. And how do you differentiate emergence from finely crafted propaganda, with stories and character, with idea of code of high sec and false prophet styled persona behind it? It was all crafted I tell ya. Propaganda is a part of the meta game that uses the real world skills of players to influence in-game outcomes, and meta gaming is widely recognised as a form of emergent game play Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13858	Posted - 2016.07.23 22:47:39 - [265] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: What we do know, for a fact, is you want to change the fundamental nature of the game. You argue it will make the game better and I'm pointing out that those who like the FFA PvP nature of the game would disagree...and many of those who are still left would leave. So why should we believe you that if we want a FFA PvP game it would be better for us to remove that aspect? So we will have to wait untill so much people play this game as in 2003 when it started. So big number will probably make them use the alternative option. I think CCP is locked into a strategy that is going to take us to that level of players logged in at this point. They could undo things like watchlists, reduce the cost of war decs and I doubt it would stop the trend. Sometimes you can't go back. Let them choose what future they will prepare. These things you are talking about, already were. With tweaking them and not changing in general only uncover flaws for more people. So is general impresion when I see how it all comes into. So that was my proposition to completely shift the narration in High sec. Maybe CCP wants just that. To more players accept it when it comes. That would explain the watchlist change and them not doing anything about it. In that case, I have already won, and can tell you all to go play other game. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13858	Posted - 2016.07.23 22:50:29 - [266] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: The process you are referring is called propaganda. And it had and audience that is fitting, gankers. In a open world PvP game. Whats so special? That somebody uses propaganda? Its goonswarm thing. James was from Goonswarm. No. It is called emergence (which is a real field of study) and spontaneous order. It it something that fascinates me in economics and in this game. See, you just are not getting where I am coming from. I know about James, I personally think he is an arrogant gas bag who loves the sound of his own voice. And when it comes to writing is completely incontinent. And, if James literally quit tomorrow I'm betting CODE. would still be here. As for Goons, I know about Goons. In fact, I have been on both sides of the Goons/anti-Goons conflict. I have been in an alliance that was part of the GBC and then later the Imperium. Goons are also fascinating to me. What makes them so damn formidable is their cohesiveness as a group. The GBC had nothing like it, in fact some members of the GBC and BoB specifically hated other members almost as much as they despised Goons. They are all indoctrinated. And how do you differentiate emergence from finely crafted propaganda, with stories and character, with idea of code of high sec and false prophet styled persona behind it? It was all crafted I tell ya. Propaganda is a part of the meta game that uses the real world skills of players to influence in-game outcomes, and meta gaming is widely recognised as a form of emergent game play. The entire purpose of propaganda throughout the ages in the real world has been to deceive the populace by improving morale and vilifying the enemy, to see it being used for the same purposes in a game is not surprising. So its actually all the same. Propaganda is emergent gameplay. And its nothing special, as I wrote earlier. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4988	Posted - 2016.07.23 23:03:07 - [267] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: What we do know, for a fact, is you want to change the fundamental nature of the game. You argue it will make the game better and I'm pointing out that those who like the FFA PvP nature of the game would disagree...and many of those who are still left would leave. So why should we believe you that if we want a FFA PvP game it would be better for us to remove that aspect? So we will have to wait untill so much people play this game as in 2003 when it started. So big number will probably make them use the alternative option. I think CCP is locked into a strategy that is going to take us to that level of players logged in at this point. They could undo things like watchlists, reduce the cost of war decs and I doubt it would stop the trend. Sometimes you can't go back. Let them choose what future they will prepare. These things you are talking about, already were. With tweaking them and not changing in general only uncover flaws for more people. So is general impresion when I see how it all comes into. So that was my proposition to completely shift the narration in High sec. Maybe CCP wants just that. To more players accept it when it comes. That would explain the watchlist change and them not doing anything about it. In that case, I have already won, and can tell you all to go play other game. Doesn't matter what CCP does about the watchlist IMO. They can do whatever they like, the damage is done, and undoing or implementing something new is likely to have little to no effect. And you sure seem to want to have your cake and eat it too. On the one hand the game is dominated by HTFU types....but now you expect these very same players to accept the destruction of the game as they know and...keep paying? Really? War decs, the general concept, is not a flaw. For the players you represent though, it is a flaw. Same thing with ganking. It is not a flaw, the game was designed that way. For the players you represent it is a flaw. It is only a flaw if you think EVE was like other MMOs that are NOT FFA PvP games. When you realize EVE is a FFA PvP game it becomes clear it is not a flaw, but a deliberate game design aspect. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26389	Posted - 2016.07.23 23:04:42 - [268] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: So its actually all the same. Propaganda is emergent gameplay. And its nothing special, as I wrote earlier. Emergent gameplay is actually fairly rare, and thus somewhat special; there aren't many games that give the freedoms necessary for it to arise. Quote: The way all was arranged is calling for set up. Emerging set up. Its to fight the high sec. And move everybody to null. To goons. Does Dinsdale know that you've been snorting his stash? Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4989	Posted - 2016.07.23 23:07:43 - [269] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: So its actually all the same. Propaganda is emergent gameplay. And its nothing special, as I wrote earlier. Emergent gameplay is actually fairly rare, and thus somewhat special; there aren't many games that give the freedoms necessary for it to arise. Quote: The way all was arranged is calling for set up. Emerging set up. Its to fight the high sec. And move everybody to null. To goons. Does Dinsdale know that you've been snorting his stash? You know you've been reading the forums too much when you get the Dinsdale reference..... "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26391	Posted - 2016.07.23 23:10:10 - [270] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: You know you've been reading the forums too much when you get the Dinsdale reference..... I miss Dinsdale He was in a whole different league to the current aspirants for his crown. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 16979	Posted - 2016.07.23 23:24:46 - [271] - Quote Mortlake spotted him in the wild last week, lowsec in a loki i think. He's still about. Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4990	Posted - 2016.07.23 23:29:52 - [272] - Quote Speaking of players logged in: Back in 2013, the average daily number was 48,000. The lowest point in that year was just under 37,000 The lowest point in that year was several thousand players above the highest point these days. Average number of players logged in in 2014: 41,000 2015: 34,000 For 2016 YTD: 32,000 April-July of this year: 26,000 If the current trend continues the peak number of players logging will likely drop below 30,000. Granted there does appear to be seasonality in the data--i.e. players logged in slumps in the summer months. But there is also undoubtedly a longer term and persistent downward trend. Subscriptions are also likely highly correlated with players logged on. So looking at the change from 2014 to 2015 we are talking a whopping 17% decrease in subscriptions. If we look at the change from 2013 to 2015 a 29% decrease. Now you know why CCP is always having PLEX sales. BTW, if I could get my hands on the actual data...I could tell quite a bit more.... "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Denavit We are not bad. Just unlucky DARKNESS. 13	Posted - 2016.07.24 00:18:20 - [273] - Quote wow, this got a lot of good responses, didn't expect it =O btw, come to null, we have nothing to kill =(
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26393	Posted - 2016.07.24 00:23:51 - [274] - Quote Denavit wrote: wow, this got a lot of good responses, didn't expect it =O btw, come to null, we have nothing to kill =( Goons and Russians, never not shoot them, even if they're blues. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Denavit We are not bad. Just unlucky DARKNESS. 13	Posted - 2016.07.24 01:04:40 - [275] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Denavit wrote: wow, this got a lot of good responses, didn't expect it =O btw, come to null, we have nothing to kill =( Goons and Russians, never not shoot them, even if they're blues. They are way to far from our region , and there is no fast way to move now =/
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 433	Posted - 2016.07.24 01:09:58 - [276] - Quote Goons got you right where they wanted ;-)
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13861	Posted - 2016.07.24 06:01:50 - [277] - Quote Chinese players on their server seem to lack the bleeding of players, not only 7 k in players logged in difference. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
ugh zug 112	Posted - 2016.07.24 06:14:28 - [278] - Quote lack of content. /thread Want me to shut up? Remove content from my post,1B. Remove my content from a thread I have started 2B.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13861	Posted - 2016.07.24 06:18:17 - [279] - Quote Move to null if you want war. Actually CCP may be on the tracks there. To repopulate it in different way now. Only if we could have more those players who beside shooting easy targets would like to move to null and be actually in some risk there. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5728	Posted - 2016.07.24 10:53:22 - [280] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: BTW, if I could get my hands on the actual data...I could tell quite a bit more.... I posted the future of EvE subs back in 2011, inside an Akita T thread. There's nothing else to read than that. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 292	Posted - 2016.07.24 11:18:34 - [281] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Move to null if you want war. Actually CCP may be on the tracks there. To repopulate it in different way now. Only if we could have more those players who beside shooting easy targets would like to move to null and be actually in some risk there. Where are you, hardened PvP ers with a lot of ISK for wardecs? You still chase the bunny, not wanting to come up to the challenge of bigger pray that can bite back? 0.0 space is surprisingly bad for PvP - unless you really enjoy just being a small, insignificant piece of a much larger fleet led by somebody else, or you happen to be one of the few people who can handle the stress of leading a 1000 person fleet - which is much like herding 1000 cats... And the reason these fleets exist is to either conquer or protect the space so that the PvE players can farm it. Because ultimately, 0.0 is primarily for hard-core PvE players who want to make a LOT of money. Sure they get to hop into fleets and shoot things from time to time if they want to, but that is just a break from their PvE farming. So - why don't you and all the other people who supposedly want to PvE get your lazy rear ends out to 0.0 space where you could make some serious money doing it, instead of derping around high sec for arguably more direct risk and far less rewards?
W33b3l Conquest and Kittens 124	Posted - 2016.07.24 12:31:13 - [282] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Move to null if you want war. Actually CCP may be on the tracks there. To repopulate it in different way now. Only if we could have more those players who beside shooting easy targets would like to move to null and be actually in some risk there. Where are you, hardened PvP ers with a lot of ISK for wardecs? You still chase the bunny, not wanting to come up to the challenge of bigger pray that can bite back? 0.0 space is surprisingly bad for PvP - unless you really enjoy just being a small, insignificant piece of a much larger fleet led by somebody else, or you happen to be one of the few people who can handle the stress of leading a 1000 person fleet - which is much like herding 1000 cats... And the reason these fleets exist is to either conquer or protect the space so that the PvE players can farm it. Because ultimately, 0.0 is primarily for hard-core PvE players who want to make a LOT of money. Sure they get to hop into fleets and shoot things from time to time if they want to, but that is just a break from their PvE farming. So - why don't you and all the other people who supposedly want to PvE get your lazy rear ends out to 0.0 space where you could make some serious money doing it, instead of derping around high sec for arguably more direct risk and far less rewards? You have a point. CCP should update the EULA to make the renting of space a bannable offense. Then maybe money (isk) minded people might give 2 craps about moving to null and join a corp that actually owns space. Or CCP could finish WIS and let people buy emotes with aurum giving all the vets the middle finger but bringing in a lot of new players. I say we're screwed no matter what lol. Bu we're fine in the mean time.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13867	Posted - 2016.07.24 12:36:28 - [283] - Quote If really Null is for PvE null bears, so why mercenaries dont go there? Bears with teeth? Pandemic Legion isnt mercenary alliance that is fighting in Null? I thought it was. Maybe CCP starts to think they should make more differentiation between high and null, by making high safer, so actual PvP ers will move where they will not bother PvE centric players so much, and will give these non wardecable social corporations, and take away possibility to shoot others without war target flag in high. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 237	Posted - 2016.07.24 14:46:07 - [284] - Quote Apparently there are still TOO MANY players in EvE. Every time I want to go exploring or looking for some cheap ore in an "out of the way" system... there's always someone there to spoil my fun. Where are these "empty" systems? --Curious Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
Terminal Insanity Pwn 'N Play Spaceship Samurai 941	Posted - 2016.07.24 16:43:17 - [285] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: If really Null is for PvE null bears, so why mercenaries dont go there after them? Bears with teeth? Pandemic Legion isnt mercenary alliance that is fighting in Null? I thought it was. Maybe CCP starts to think they should make more differentiation between high and null, by making high safer, so actual PvP ers will move where they will not bother PvE centric players so much, and will give these non wardecable social corporations without ability to make industrial structures, and take away possibility to shoot others without war target flag in high. People do hunt bears in null. Every day hundreds of null bears get their ** pushed in. The difference, is null bears just dont care Thats what they were in null for in the first place. They dont throw a tantrum when their rattlesnake gets ganked. They just replace it and continue. This is what highsec people dont get. Highsec people sit there in their deadspace golems running lvl4s 16 hours a day, and the very idea that someone could possibly gank them at some point, is absolutely abhorrent to them. They think that its "ruining their game". Kid, that IS the game. The risk adds a ton of excitement to the game, unless you're one of those idiots who wants a perfect record, and thinks ccp should remove killmails because you dont want any record of any losses. Yea, with that attitude you'll have an absolute terrible time in eve and you'll think the whole game is out to get you. because IT IS OUT TO GET YOU. thats what the game is designed to do. Its designed to put you at risk at all times. "War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature.**" - CCP
Loki Yamaguchi Level 42 Industries 10	Posted - 2016.07.24 16:46:43 - [286] - Quote IMO HiSec is too safe, huge and profitable for most to even bother with LowSec/Null. Characters can PLEX their accounts easily and never leave the comfort of HiSec. What IGÇÖd like to seeGÇª A real bounty system that works. Nerf/Remove Concord and make policing a player job. Have HiSec GÇ£authoritiesGÇ¥ fight to keep HiSec with 0.5-0.7 systems being able to be captured/lost to LowSec status. Have the faction war actually matter and maybe some type of conscription system. Essentially make the big safe pool smaller and more dangerous but give more tools/incentives to protect that pool. Players will fine less ISK to harvest in the safety of HiSec and have to go into LowSec to earn. Force them into LowSec to show that it's really not that bad...
Terminal Insanity Pwn 'N Play Spaceship Samurai 941	Posted - 2016.07.24 16:48:10 - [287] - Quote Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: Apparently there are still TOO MANY players in EvE. Every time I want to go exploring or looking for some cheap ore in an "out of the way" system... there's always someone there to spoil my fun. Where are these "empty" systems? --Curious Gadget come to nullsec. Our guys are out there right now with a rorqual pressing freighterloads of ore all day. You dont need to worry about CODE gankers ether. We have intel channels and standing fleets that will help keep you safe. And when you inevitably do get ganked while watching netflix, you wont care because you'll have made more than enough to replace it 10x over. Plus you'll probaly end up with hilarious killmails where the guy trying to kill you ends up dying to a fleet of miners. "War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13875	Posted - 2016.07.24 16:51:25 - [288] - Quote If nullbears are there and dont care, and the rest of high sec cares, CCP will do what I proposed. If now the risk for common highsec bear is abhorrent, and they dont want to be ganked, and they are not ganked as often as they would fear, and its like they dont even care about ganks if they do it in low populated and tech 2 fitted ships, and occasional gank is only pissing them off and they dont want to play any longer, same as with wardecs, CCP will do what I proposed. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Terminal Insanity Pwn 'N Play Spaceship Samurai 941	Posted - 2016.07.24 17:12:44 - [289] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: bleh you dont get it. You just dont get it. Go play those X games if you want pure pve. Go play a PvE game if you do not like eve. eve is pvp only. Even when you're shooting up rats all day, you're still in a pvp world and consenting to pvp. The reason we're bleeding players is because people like you who come in here trying to force ccp to change this game into something it isnt. This is not WOW in space. You do not have the right to be safe in eve. Ether play the game that was designed to put you at risk, or play a different game. This would be like me going into WOW and demanding blizzard turn every area into non-consentual pvp areas with permanent item loss. How offensive would that be to the millions of existing players who enjoy the game the way it was designed? Thats what you're doing here in eve. You've come across this game, and now you;re trying to force its entire player base to accept your rules. ** off if you dont like eve. "War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature.**" - CCP
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 29	Posted - 2016.07.24 17:21:48 - [290] - Quote Terminal Insanity wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: bleh you dont get it. You just dont get it. Go play those X games if you want pure pve. Go play a PvE game if you do not like eve. eve is pvp only. Even when you're shooting up rats all day, you're still in a pvp world and consenting to pvp. The reason we're bleeding players is because people like you who come in here trying to force ccp to change this game into something it isnt. This is not WOW in space. You do not have the right to be safe in eve. Ether play the game that was designed to put you at risk, or play a different game. This would be like me going into WOW and demanding blizzard turn every area into non-consentual pvp areas with permanent item loss. How offensive would that be to the millions of existing players who enjoy the game the way it was designed? Thats what you're doing here in eve. You've come across this game, and now you;re trying to force its entire player base to accept your rules. **** off if you dont like eve. There's no risk to insult millions of players here.... Considering that most veterans use 2/3/4 or more accounts, it's more some thousand of players if you are lucky.... should be a giant warning bell for any game developer honestly.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13886	Posted - 2016.07.24 17:26:01 - [291] - Quote I think you are in mistake. CCP realizes its niche because of reasons, reasons you are not grasping. This niche is every year smaller. The changes to game, as they are, are too little to drastically shift the way game appeals to new players. It appeals only to this niche you are in. You are in minority. You can fear this is the only game for you. I can assure you, null and low will be there to PvP and faction warfare. These changes will not make so much change to the way PvP is done there, they wil only sacrifice the gankers and griefing wardeccers But it will change the way new players will perceive it, if I am right and new players trying the game dont like how it now looks and dont subscribe or dont stay long, and they are still trying it, despite CCP giving majority of them middle finger thru those years. That is my hypothesis. You can all dont agree with it, but maybe this is the way they are walking now. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 29	Posted - 2016.07.24 17:34:37 - [292] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: I think you are in mistake. CCP realizes its niche because of reasons, reasons you are not grasping. This niche is every year smaller. The changes to game, as they are, are too little to drastically shift the way game appeals to new players. It appeals only to this niche you are in. You are in minority. You can fear this is the only game for you. I can assure you, null and low will be there to PvP and faction warfare. These changes will not make so much change to the way PvP is done there, they wil only sacrifice the gankers and griefing wardeccers But it will change the way new players will perceive it, if I am right and new players trying the game dont like how it now looks and dont subscribe or dont stay long, and they are still trying it, despite CCP giving majority of them middle finger thru those years. Yes, and it's very strange devs don't realize: - Long term veterans would accept changes, even to their sick hisec/wardec ideas, they invested too much time and money on this game to quit, they will not quit...( prove is they accept to be enslaved by total grind events even if they keep saying it's a sandbox...we are free...yes even in wow you are free to stay in the world doing your things...none forces you to grind... - New players and persons who try the game are, on the contrary easily disgusted by harassing/ganking and so on, in particular if they don't know games mechanics in detail, so they will leave and tell anyone asking them about this game that it's a horrible game collecting all the horrible gankers that have no other place left where they can pour out their rage on others...
Loki Yamaguchi Level 42 Industries 10	Posted - 2016.07.24 17:48:41 - [293] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: - New players and persons who try the game are, on the contrary easily disgusted by harassing/ganking and so on, in particular if they don't know games mechanics in detail, so they will leave and tell anyone asking them about this game that it's a horrible game collecting all the horrible gankers that have no other place left where they can pour out their rage on others... CCP's own data prove you are wrong here... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A92Ge2S8M1Y;t=54s A sense of boredom brought on by a perceived lack of risk/excitement seems to be what drives players away.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13888	Posted - 2016.07.24 18:22:16 - [294] - Quote Loki Yamaguchi wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: - New players and persons who try the game are, on the contrary easily disgusted by harassing/ganking and so on, in particular if they don't know games mechanics in detail, so they will leave and tell anyone asking them about this game that it's a horrible game collecting all the horrible gankers that have no other place left where they can pour out their rage on others... CCP's own data prove you are wrong here... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A92Ge2S8M1Y;t=54s Please read the commentaries under the video first. If you would listen carefully, you would know its half assed attempt to know what actually is going on, because: Its only for 15 day old players. And they not bothered to ask about why they tried the game in the first place, what they imagined before playing. So this alone could have affected the results in greater perspective. Like how much players were bored by what, were annoyed by what. 1 % people have been ganked for first 15 days. Clearly a trial timespan. How much game you can explore in that timespan, what can you acquire being completely new, and who the hell ganks 15 day old noobs? If they would care to watch players play more, like for a month or two, different timespans... Those who have been killed played longer, that may have been because of one reason, they have seeked vengeance, stayed to learn how to gank others, because its so easy and can cause mischef. This one percent is affected by mischief. Will affect the rest that plays the game in negative way as we could have seen. Also its only result from one percent, so they could be borderline inexact in relation to the majority. No wonder that "I have lost ship, or I have been harassed" in resignation is so low. It could be a shame to write in resignation, "I resigned because I have imagined myself as a warrior and was blown up in one shot, I feel violated", this pool may have been affected by emotions. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Loki Yamaguchi Level 42 Industries 10	Posted - 2016.07.24 18:32:37 - [295] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Please read the commentaries under the video first. Nah..I'll listen to the people that have the data, make the exit-polls and in general know what's going on (big picture) more than most. Reading YouTube comments should never be the basis of anything other than cautionary tales covering why you shouldn't listen to trolls...
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13890	Posted - 2016.07.24 18:44:44 - [296] - Quote Loki Yamaguchi wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Please read the commentaries under the video first. Nah..I'll listen to the people that have the data, make the exit-polls and in general know what's going on (big picture) more than most. Reading YouTube comments should never be the basis of anything other than cautionary tales covering why you shouldn't listen to trolls... These are no trolls. If you would bother reading also mine commentary for it, you would know they speak from experience. Badly researched data leads to wrong conclusion. They did let you know on video how they tried to research data, well, maybe they should have asked at university first how to make that kind of research. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
zus Cyber Naval Command Research and Development 39	Posted - 2016.07.24 19:10:31 - [297] - Quote Denavit wrote: Is is because PLEX prices, i remember buying them at 550mill, 500mill, now is almost 1bill, or is it because the changes are making oldSchoolers quit? Nothing to do with PLEX I started playing EVE at 2003 or 04 i use to play Allegiance back then and after sum time the servers started crashing so i got tired and quit plying. I first saw EVE at MSN's website advertising next with Allegiance so i give her a try and ever since have became the primary game to go to. Even when i get tired of her for sum period of time and try sum other games eventually i rebound back to her , Many of older players like me have sold their character for isk like i did, when no longer want to be competitive and just want to enjoy the game as a beginner since is a lot more material to go through and challenges, especially when significant updates with new material are implemented we run back to EVE to try it out For me and like-minded people what attracts us to EVE is high sec the reason is / no time frame commitment in action we need to be able to interrupt and continue , So if there is lock in content or restriction in experiencing the full content of the game then we have loss of motivation and take a break for awhile.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13890	Posted - 2016.07.24 19:23:32 - [298] - Quote Post above gives a glimpse of how EVE is played, its not by 15 day old player. So if they really want to have good research, they would really need to go and explore the playerbase. But pols are so much annoying to do, most players would probably mine a whole belt while listening to Nightwish than do an exhausive pool. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Loki Yamaguchi Level 42 Industries 10	Posted - 2016.07.24 20:54:05 - [299] - Quote So now we're playing the old 'use alt to back-up position' forum warrior trick...
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13892	Posted - 2016.07.24 21:28:40 - [300] - Quote Yes, All of them are my alts, I am making those threads myself, all of them. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
W33b3l Conquest and Kittens 125	Posted - 2016.07.24 21:50:34 - [301] - Quote Wardecs used to agitate me when I was new but I eventually got used to them. I see it as "sweet people to mess with" instead of getting bent out of shape. I normally just go to lowsec and wait for someone to pirate when I watch TV. If im in a corp or alliance that has a bunch of indy guys and isnt a merc corp or something, and we keep starting wars one after another I get really annoyed though. However, regardless if this should be changed or not, it is one of the leading causes of low new player retention and you can not deny that. The other is ganks. Im on board with leaving war decs alone but I do agree that suiganking can be an issue. Ive never suiganked and never will. The few times I had any sway in a corp I was very outspoken about leaving people in highsec alone unless we had an active wardec on them. I can think of only 2 people I would have officially allowed a highsec suigank on but man they had it coming though lol. Suiganking is easy and only people that are too afraid for a fair fight do it in my opinion. Its just math and the F1 key. While it can be an entertaining tool to use when needed, doing it to randome people is pretty gutless. I dont want EVE to be safe, but if they made it harder or more expensive to do this then they already have less players would quit and Ide sit by without voicing anger about it.
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 435	Posted - 2016.07.24 22:41:50 - [302] - Quote Much as I dislike the prominent trashtalk and general attitude of the perpetrators, ganking is no more or less meaningful than any other activity. We don't gatecamp for profit either; no justification is required. In a way, I do believe a good gank or a dec as soon as you drop out of Pator Tech is the best school a player can have. Do you have the mettle to make it in New Eden? Once you hit rock bottom, it's literally impossible to find any lower hanging fruit- yet someone's gotta pick it, right? It's like whoring on suspects getting blapped off the Amarr undock, although in both cases it is important the player realises, by preference sooner than later, some ground rules: - stupid gets punished. - you too have guns-- you can beat them! - items are expendable. Don't grind for purple for it will not persist after your inevitable demise. - insurance has got you covered. To new players this may be a shocker, but that shock has got to come at some point. Since they start off in highsec, a gank, dec, involuntarily turning suspect, getting concordokkened or accepting a mission to lowsec are likely causes. Truth be told, had said newbro jumped a wormhole and wound up in Curse, all chipper and chatty, he'd get the podexpress with our compliments too. Ain't not just a ganker thing, that. Let's be honest here: what did a genuinly new player really lose? A ship he no doubt got for free from Aura, crappy T1 mods worth less than his uninsured ship...? Nah. What he lost is the illusion we were all going to get along-- and that's a good thing. If said player gets blown up time and time again, then he's simply not getting it or insisting on going AFK (yes, I've seen people die in their Venture to a rat and blame me because "I didn't protect them"). If a gank or a gatecamp or a wardec is enough to drive a player out of the game, that player wasn't going to stick around anyway. Training wheels got to come off some time, yes? Those that start keeping an eye out for suspicious activity to avoid making the same mistake again, read up on game mechanics, browse ISIS or EFT to find out how they died, those are going to swim some day. This coming from one who's not exactly on good terms with CODE, mind you. If you fail to notice the flashing skulls in local and the warship heading your way....... what can I say? Some folks just aren't up for it, don't enjoy it, don't feel that urge to GitGud and someday pilot a warship of their own. That's why we have trial accounts: to try it out. Some of those might give it a second look later on down the line, expecting 15 days of hell; find out it's not as bad as they remembered it; and stick around anyway.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4994	Posted - 2016.07.25 00:06:11 - [303] - Quote W33b3l wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Move to null if you want war. Actually CCP may be on the tracks there. To repopulate it in different way now. Only if we could have more those players who beside shooting easy targets would like to move to null and be actually in some risk there. Where are you, hardened PvP ers with a lot of ISK for wardecs? You still chase the bunny, not wanting to come up to the challenge of bigger pray that can bite back? 0.0 space is surprisingly bad for PvP - unless you really enjoy just being a small, insignificant piece of a much larger fleet led by somebody else, or you happen to be one of the few people who can handle the stress of leading a 1000 person fleet - which is much like herding 1000 cats... And the reason these fleets exist is to either conquer or protect the space so that the PvE players can farm it. Because ultimately, 0.0 is primarily for hard-core PvE players who want to make a LOT of money. Sure they get to hop into fleets and shoot things from time to time if they want to, but that is just a break from their PvE farming. So - why don't you and all the other people who supposedly want to PvE get your lazy rear ends out to 0.0 space where you could make some serious money doing it, instead of derping around high sec for arguably more direct risk and far less rewards? You have a point. CCP should update the EULA to make the renting of space a bannable offense. Then maybe money (isk) minded people might give 2 craps about moving to null and join a corp that actually owns space. Or CCP could finish WIS and let people buy emotes with aurum giving all the vets the middle finger but bringing in a lot of new players. I say we're screwed no matter what lol. Bu we're fine in the mean time. Yes, lets ban other forms of emergent game play. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4994	Posted - 2016.07.25 00:10:10 - [304] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: If really Null is for PvE null bears, so why mercenaries dont go there after them? Bears with teeth? Pandemic Legion isnt mercenary alliance that is fighting in Null? I thought it was. Maybe CCP starts to think they should make more differentiation between high and null, by making high safer, so actual PvP ers will move where they will not bother PvE centric players so much, and will give these non wardecable social corporations without ability to make industrial structures, and take away possibility to shoot others without war target flag in high. Because they know the PvP players will come after them and the response will be one they do not want to deal with. NS PvP players will come with a doctrine fleet meaning adequate logistics, fleet boosters, tackle and DPS. They can use titans and bridges to move around faster (if they do not mind the fatigue). This is not something HS war dec corps want to deal with...if they did they'd already be in NS. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4994	Posted - 2016.07.25 00:19:51 - [305] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: If nullbears are there and dont care, and the rest of high sec whines, CCP will do what I proposed. If now the risk for common highsec bear is abhorrent, and they dont want to be ganked, and they are not ganked as often as they would fear, and its like they dont even care about ganks if they do it in low populated systems and tech 2 fitted ships, and occasional gank is only pissing them off and they dont want to play any longer, same as with wardecs, CCP will do what I proposed. It will be done to make more players stay. More is not a guy who will HTFU because he likes some aspects of the game he pays for, but the one who will leave if he dont like some aspects of the game he pays for. This game has presumably those HTFU guys olready, so they will stay, and more of those who try and will not whine because there will be nothing to annoy them, will stay. Numbers will rise. Here is the thing, that is not the game people are playing. CCP Falcon wrote: Why should CCP provide protection for your haulage in high sec? CONCORD offer a level of deterrent just the same as any law enforcement agency, but as with any police for they're reactive and punitive rather than proactive. If you want your haulage to be safer, bring the guns. If you don't have any guns, sacrifice some of your profit margin and hire someone who has them to escort you. Welcome to New Eden, you just learned a very valuable lesson in being prepared and covering your back. Link CCP Falcon wrote: Being unprepared and putting all your eggs in one basket to make a nice juicy target for a suicide gank is the joke here, not highsec. There are a multitude of ways to protect yourself from suicide gankers, people just automatically assume they're "safe" in highsec, then get annoyed when they lose a ship because of their own lack of spatial awareness. Link "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4994	Posted - 2016.07.25 00:20:57 - [306] - Quote CCP Falcon wrote: I love EVE and the core of what the game stands for. That's why I've been dedicated to it and its community for over 11 years now. Risk vs Reward is a huge part of that. Honestly, if that changed, and the game started to soften out and cater to those who want to have their hand held all the way through their gameplay experience, I'd rather not be working on the project regardless of how many subscribers we had, than sell out the core principles that New Eden was built on. That's a sentiment that I hear a lot around the office, because we are all invested in what makes New Eden so compelling - The dark, gritty, hard reality beneath the pretty ships and nebulas. EVE is built on the core principle that you are never 100% safe, no matter where you go or what you do. When you interact with another player, you roll the dice on whether they're going to screw you over or not. That's a massive part of the social engineering behind the very basic underpinnings of the EVE Universe. Sorry, but your scaremongering counter argument makes no sense to me and carries no weight link "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4994	Posted - 2016.07.25 00:25:42 - [307] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: - stupid gets punished. Not any more! Now stupid is the norm. Want to play stupid...cool. CCP will hold your hand while you do it. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4994	Posted - 2016.07.25 00:49:06 - [308] - Quote W33b3l wrote: However, regardless if this should be changed or not, it is one of the leading causes of low new player retention and you can not deny that. And you base this on what? CCP is very tight with the data, so I'm assuming you are basing on literally nothing. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 438	Posted - 2016.07.25 00:55:24 - [309] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: - stupid gets punished. Not any more! Now stupid is the norm. Want to play stupid...cool. CCP will hold your hand while you do it. See, this kind of remarks always gets me. Why do you say that? How does CCP hold your hand now in a way they didn't used to before? I hear a lot of this "Eve's been dumbed down" but I haven't been around long enough to know what that means. (by preference examples pertinent to nullsec pls) Only thing that comes to mind is Carriers refitting-on-the-fly but they've done a lot of good for caps too. Is this dumber? I don't know. Different for sure. Then again, with command destroyers they've introduced a new line of tactics we didn't have before; introducing tracking on guns and getting rid of cruise launchers on Kestrels doesn't strike me as dumber in any way either-- keeping track of tracking is actually harder, no? Same with the changes to MWD/AB way back-- those were not only necessary fixes but also introduced a meaningful choice for both tacklers and solo pilots. ~erg~ Rambling again. You have the bandstand Teckos- fire away those examples!
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4994	Posted - 2016.07.25 01:00:05 - [310] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: I think you are in mistake. CCP realizes its niche because of reasons, reasons you are not grasping. This niche is every year smaller. Based on what? Where is your analysis or argument. You state this as if it were a fact hanging around out there in the air for everyone to see, but the reality is you are assuming something as true which is convenient for you argument. That is just bad reasoning. So...is there anything you are good at? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4994	Posted - 2016.07.25 01:10:42 - [311] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: - stupid gets punished. Not any more! Now stupid is the norm. Want to play stupid...cool. CCP will hold your hand while you do it. See, this kind of remarks always gets me. Why do you say that? How does CCP hold your hand now in a way they didn't used to before? I hear a lot of this "Eve's been dumbed down" but I haven't been around long enough to know what that means. (by preference examples pertinent to nullsec pls) Only thing that comes to mind is Carriers refitting-on-the-fly but they've done a lot of good for caps too. Is this dumber? I don't know. Different for sure. Then again, with command destroyers they've introduced a new line of tactics we didn't have before; introducing tracking on guns and getting rid of cruise launchers on Kestrels doesn't strike me as dumber in any way either-- keeping track of tracking is actually harder, no? Same with the changes to MWD/AB way back-- those were not only necessary fixes but also introduced a meaningful choice for both tacklers and solo pilots. ~erg~ Rambling again. You have the bandstand Teckos- fire away those examples! I was being sarcastic in light of Nana's posts about removing ganking and war decs. In that case stupid is never punished. In fact, in that case what was stupid becomes very smart. You fit your freighter for max cargo capacity and use autopilot all the time. You will never be ganked as it has been removed from the game. This is true for everyone, BTW. So now you'll see the price differentials between regions fall and people who think, "I'll make all sorts of ISK!" Will be left wondering..."What happened?" Nana killed your profits. Mineral prices will also drop as well because now people can mine without fear of being ganked. They can semi-AFK mine, jet can without any worries, and fit for max yield. Ships that were previously getting destroyed will no longer get destroyed. People who used to gank and fight in HS will most likely quit. And the upside? Some hypothetical bull-*****- about how it will save the game by increasing subs because everyone wants to goddamn mine semi-afk or haul via autopilot. Yes, for fun I too want to play Space Truckers Online (which, ironically, might be fun if it were challenging, but in Nana's view of Eve it would be boring as **). Never mind there is not a shred of evidence to support this, nor is there even any lip service to the potential loss of players such a change could lead too. Nope, it must be done for players who do NOT understand the game and make stupid decisions. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 29	Posted - 2016.07.25 01:17:39 - [312] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: - stupid gets punished. Not any more! Now stupid is the norm. Want to play stupid...cool. CCP will hold your hand while you do it. See, this kind of remarks always gets me. Why do you say that? How does CCP hold your hand now in a way they didn't used to before? I hear a lot of this "Eve's been dumbed down" but I haven't been around long enough to know what that means. (by preference examples pertinent to nullsec pls) Only thing that comes to mind is Carriers refitting-on-the-fly but they've done a lot of good for caps too. Is this dumber? I don't know. Different for sure. Then again, with command destroyers they've introduced a new line of tactics we didn't have before; introducing tracking on guns and getting rid of cruise launchers on Kestrels doesn't strike me as dumber in any way either-- keeping track of tracking is actually harder, no? Same with the changes to MWD/AB way back-- those were not only necessary fixes but also introduced a meaningful choice for both tacklers and solo pilots. ~erg~ Rambling again. You have the bandstand Teckos- fire away those examples! Well, one used to be able to shoot CONCORD. I'd say that is a big one. - Nerf to insurance to discourage HS ganking - Buff to CONCORD to discourage HS ganking - Safety settings to avoid accidental CONCORD death - Removal of watch list to nerf stalking - I mean hunting - Warp to ZERO (though that was because of server issues - maybe with new servers we can get rid of it again?) - Suspect flagging - Scanning simplification - Extended skill queue - No penalty for clone loss - No standings required for jump clones - Skill injectors edit - They took away mines (another server issue - still have some can we get that back with new servers?) I am not suggesting these area all negative changes, but they certainly allow one to play less alert and more casually than before.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4996	Posted - 2016.07.25 01:29:11 - [313] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: - No standings required for jump clones This one killed an emergent form of game play. Jump clone service corps like this one. Removing ganking in HS would with high likelihood kill Red Frog...another from of emergent game play. Edit: EACS even made it into a Ten Ton Hammer article. I would not be surprised if the player running that corp quit after the changes to JC standings. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Doc Fury Furious Enterprises 8411	Posted - 2016.07.25 02:00:24 - [314] - Quote Loki Yamaguchi wrote: CCP's own data says otherwise... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A92Ge2S8M1Y;t=54s Doc had not seen this before. Thank you. The way CCP sampled some of their data is flawed (e.g.: only 15-day olds, should probably have been 30-60 days) but the results are nonetheless both validating and hilarious simultaneously. Gÿ+ The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper: 'Hodor'.
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 439	Posted - 2016.07.25 02:59:52 - [315] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: (by preference examples pertinent to nullsec pls) gank gank yawn.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4998	Posted - 2016.07.25 05:39:04 - [316] - Quote Doc Fury wrote: Loki Yamaguchi wrote: CCP's own data says otherwise... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A92Ge2S8M1Y;t=54s Doc had not seen this before. Thank you. The way CCP sampled some of their data is flawed (e.g.: only 15-day olds, should probably have been 30-60 days) but the results are nonetheless both validating and hilarious simultaneously. I think they picked 15 day "olds" so that they got "new" players. I have no major issue with that analysis. [FYI, I do this kind of analysis as a part of my day job.] BTW, one significant result that is often over looked in that analysis is that 15 day old characters are ganked at a rate of 1%. So this notion that "new players" are targeted for ganking is a load of Bravo Sierra. A more comprehensive analysis would use a logit regression model where the dependent variable is quit (0) or not-quit (1) and then include variables such as number of ganks, number of war decs, NS corp/alliance, age (expressed in something like days or months), maybe even some dummies for various expansions, and so forth. This way we could get an idea of which of these things have contributed to the likelihood a player would quit. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4999	Posted - 2016.07.25 07:44:25 - [317] - Quote So... Can we say that Nana's vision is BadGäó? I don't know about others, but if CCP followed her/his advice I'd probably let my sub expire. [Note: This is not some Bravo Sierra threat directed at CCP, but a result of a significant change in the game I subscribed too. I know some might see this as some sort of "threat" but it is actually a statement to CCP of the kind of MMO I want to play. I, literally, belong to no other MMOs. I play EVE because of its Emergent aspects and if CCP decides it no longer wants an emergent game I will stop my payments. Again this is not a threat, simply a statement of what one player wants in a game.] Further, that games that foster emergent game play are far and few between. While they might be niche, they can be a signifanct niche and CCP ****** up that niche. Their desperation to milk that niche for other projects has resulted in damaging and even killing the one product that has been profitable on the altar of "VR" or some other bullshit that CCP will almost surely NOT be the beneficiary off. As a result the demise of Eve Online is merely a question of when not if. To be quite **ing honest if I were a CCP dev I'd be updating my resume and sending it out to lots of companies. Prediction in 24 months Eve Online will be literally dead, there will not be enough subs to sustain the game and CCP will be dead withing 3-6 months after that and CCP Hilmar will be a complete **ing joke sitting in his den rambling about how he could have been something with VR. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Khan Tzestu Castle Mining Integrated Profit with Progress and Industry 4	Posted - 2016.07.25 07:58:41 - [318] - Quote As a new player I'd have to say this game is fun. On days I want to mine I mine, on days I want to blow stuff up I blow stuff up and get blown up from time to time in doing so. Anyways I always wanted to play a game like this buy never knew it existed until I played dust 514 and even then I really didn't know what Eve was all about until dust died and I gave this a shot. I guess what I'm trying to say is that ccp needs to advertise the game better. There's many more like me out there that would play if they knew. As to holding onto current or past members, I'm just a noob and don't know the gripes well enough to comment on that. But I think if they advertised more widely then people would give it a shot as most humans are lemmings and will follow and go anywhere they think everyone else is heading. Anyways that's just my thoughts and ideas. Love the game and don't want it to die as I plan on being around for a long bit.
Brigadine Ferathine The Valiant Vanguard The Volition Cult 78	Posted - 2016.07.25 08:14:08 - [319] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: - stupid gets punished. - you too have guns-- you can beat them! - items are expendable. Don't grind for purple for it will not persist after your inevitable demise. - insurance has got you covered. Please tell me where the guns are on a freighter. Most haulers have a whopping one gun... what is the point...
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4999	Posted - 2016.07.25 08:18:45 - [320] - Quote Khan Tzestu wrote: As a new player I'd have to say this game is fun. On days I want to mine I mine, on days I want to blow stuff up I blow stuff up and get blown up from time to time in doing so. Anyways I always wanted to play a game like this buy never knew it existed until I played dust 514 and even then I really didn't know what Eve was all about until dust died and I gave this a shot. I guess what I'm trying to say is that ccp needs to advertise the game better. There's many more like me out there that would play if they knew. As to holding onto current or past members, I'm just a noob and don't know the gripes well enough to comment on that. But I think if they advertised more widely then people would give it a shot as most humans are lemmings and will follow and go anywhere they think everyone else is heading. Anyways that's just my thoughts and ideas. Love the game and don't want it to die as I plan on being around for a long bit. Ahahahahahahahaha.... You might want to have a word with CCP. And for God's sake do NOT spend more than a month's worth of subscription cost at this point. You might want to have a word with CCP. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5000	Posted - 2016.07.25 08:19:59 - [321] - Quote Brigadine Ferathine wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: - stupid gets punished. - you too have guns-- you can beat them! - items are expendable. Don't grind for purple for it will not persist after your inevitable demise. - insurance has got you covered. Please tell me where the guns are on a freighter. Most haulers have a whopping one gun... what is the point... Freighters do not have guns...to beat them you use a....wait....wait....wait...a scout in a noob ship. I know ridiculous right? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1919	Posted - 2016.07.25 08:35:22 - [322] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Brigadine Ferathine wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: - stupid gets punished. - you too have guns-- you can beat them! - items are expendable. Don't grind for purple for it will not persist after your inevitable demise. - insurance has got you covered. Please tell me where the guns are on a freighter. Most haulers have a whopping one gun... what is the point... Freighters do not have guns...to beat them you use a....wait....wait....wait...a scout in a noob ship. I know ridiculous right? So you have to have two accounts to play Eve, so grind for plex or two subs, this is a major reason as it kills casual play. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17024	Posted - 2016.07.25 08:44:20 - [323] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Brigadine Ferathine wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: - stupid gets punished. - you too have guns-- you can beat them! - items are expendable. Don't grind for purple for it will not persist after your inevitable demise. - insurance has got you covered. Please tell me where the guns are on a freighter. Most haulers have a whopping one gun... what is the point... Freighters do not have guns...to beat them you use a....wait....wait....wait...a scout in a noob ship. I know ridiculous right? So you have to have two accounts to play Eve, so grind for plex or two subs, this is a major reason as it kills casual play. hardly ,mmo right , make friends they work for this too. Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1919	Posted - 2016.07.25 08:59:08 - [324] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Brigadine Ferathine wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: - stupid gets punished. - you too have guns-- you can beat them! - items are expendable. Don't grind for purple for it will not persist after your inevitable demise. - insurance has got you covered. Please tell me where the guns are on a freighter. Most haulers have a whopping one gun... what is the point... Freighters do not have guns...to beat them you use a....wait....wait....wait...a scout in a noob ship. I know ridiculous right? So you have to have two accounts to play Eve, so grind for plex or two subs, this is a major reason as it kills casual play. hardly ,mmo right , make friends they work for this too. Hi guys can someone be a scout for me as I move my freighter, hmmmm sounds interesting yeah it will be fun , lets do it yay!!!! COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5000	Posted - 2016.07.25 09:41:09 - [325] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Brigadine Ferathine wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: - stupid gets punished. - you too have guns-- you can beat them! - items are expendable. Don't grind for purple for it will not persist after your inevitable demise. - insurance has got you covered. Please tell me where the guns are on a freighter. Most haulers have a whopping one gun... what is the point... Freighters do not have guns...to beat them you use a....wait....wait....wait...a scout in a noob ship. I know ridiculous right? So you have to have two accounts to play Eve, so grind for plex or two subs, this is a major reason as it kills casual play. Where did I say 2 accounts? There you go again Kreskin. No, shitler, you have a friend, a buddy, some body in game, another person, who is willing to help you. Stop reading between the lines and assuming it just makes you look like a shitler. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5000	Posted - 2016.07.25 09:42:58 - [326] - Quote Dracvlad hardly ,mmo right , make friends they work for this too.[/quote wrote: Hi guys can someone be a scout for me as I move my freighter, hmmmm sounds interesting yeah it will be fun , lets do it yay!!!! I know it is ridiculous in an MMO to make friends. How about you logoff and uninstall so that the rest of us can get on with things. No, really. Just logoff an uninstall. Idiot. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1919	Posted - 2016.07.25 09:56:15 - [327] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Quote: hardly ,mmo right , make friends they work for this too. Hi guys can someone be a scout for me as I move my freighter, hmmmm sounds interesting yeah it will be fun , lets do it yay!!!! I know it is ridiculous in an MMO to make friends. How about you logoff and uninstall so that the rest of us can get on with things. No, really. Just logoff an uninstall. Idiot. Well it is so funny, get a friend to help you do the most boring activity in the whole game which is moving a freighter, what planet are you on. Oh goody when I skill up I want to be a scout for a freighter, great fun COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5000	Posted - 2016.07.25 10:41:30 - [328] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Quote: hardly ,mmo right , make friends they work for this too. Hi guys can someone be a scout for me as I move my freighter, hmmmm sounds interesting yeah it will be fun , lets do it yay!!!! I know it is ridiculous in an MMO to make friends. How about you logoff and uninstall so that the rest of us can get on with things. No, really. Just logoff an uninstall. Idiot. Well it is so funny, get a friend to help you do the most boring activity in the whole game which is moving a freighter, what planet are you on. Oh goody when I skill up I want to be a scout for a freighter, great fun You want to move a capital ship with a valuable cargo..get a friend...how silly. Dum-b-ass. Really, can you just uninstall the game? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17026	Posted - 2016.07.25 11:00:18 - [329] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Quote: hardly ,mmo right , make friends they work for this too. Hi guys can someone be a scout for me as I move my freighter, hmmmm sounds interesting yeah it will be fun , lets do it yay!!!! I know it is ridiculous in an MMO to make friends. How about you logoff and uninstall so that the rest of us can get on with things. No, really. Just logoff an uninstall. Idiot. Well it is so funny, get a friend to help you do the most boring activity in the whole game which is moving a freighter, what planet are you on. Oh goody when I skill up I want to be a scout for a freighter, great fun Its a favour i would do for a mate at the drop of a hat if required and i know any of us would do for me if i was stuck for a scout. Its not about fun its about keeping a significant investment alive. Christ man, What kind of jackass wouldnt scout a corpmate. Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 2646	Posted - 2016.07.25 11:22:41 - [330] - Quote Less people are logging not because freighters require scouts. Capital ships have always required support, and this is after all a social game designed to reward grouping up. Why are less people logging in? Well like all of you I lack the data to say exactly why, and honestly, I am not sure even CCP with all the data could pinpoint the cause or causes given their inability to reverse trends. We can though pretty confidently say it is not the presence of ganking, wardecs, the vulnerability of freighters any of the other boogey-men that are constantly raised by certain segments of the player-base. These things were part of the initial game design and have been with us for the whole lifetime of the game, including the times when the game grew the fastest. In reality, the impact and risk of these things to players has been repeatedly nerfed so that players have never been mechanically safer. In fact, it is this increased safety and ease of earning wealth that I suggest is smothering the game. CCP Quant's data show that New Eden is stuck in a chronic situation of over-production where we have been producing three times what we are destroying for years now. Incomes can be made with near no risk, with no need to take space or even leave highsec. Jump freighter logistics, which were almost risk-free before, are now completely risk-free with the Citadel tethering mechanic. Basically, CCP has removed so much of the risk and ability to force a fight, and provided income sources that don't require building or holding an empire, that people have stopped doing so. The big coalitions got this and retreated to the invulnerability of lowsec - there is literally no point in holding sov. Perhaps killing the blue donut and leaving nullsec to smaller groups will be better for generating wars more often, but they won't be of the scale and consequence of previous wars. I am optimistic that this might stimulate activity, but fighting only to put your name on the map grows old quickly, especially after you have been steamrolled a few times and have the easy option of highsec incursions to fall back on. There needs to be incentive and reasons to head out and try to stake a claim on your space and to defend it. Perhaps once all the structures are implemented, those rewards will be there, but as it is there is no reason to take space or put something on the line when you can make an income safely in highsec and just roam outside when you want attacking others on your own terms. Perhaps Seagull's vision of new space will provide the rewards necessary to get people fighting again for something other than just the fight itself which seems to be the sole motivation of most conflict in the game today and this was not always the case. The game desperately needs more real conflict drivers to induce players to spend some of the wealth that we all are accumulating on attacking each other for a meaningful reason. But this roadmap of hers is a long time coming, and each month less and less people are sticking around. On my pessimistic days, I am afraid it might already be too late and if or when we pass some tipping point of low activity, I fear there will be an astonishing fail-cascade of the player-driven market which will push a large fraction of non-PvP crowd whose primary game activity is to supply the market out of the game further killing activity. This road of making everyone rich and safe only has one outcome, and it is complete stagnation of the game and death of the economy. Highsec can be safe, but it can't be as safe and lucrative as it is now, and even highsec needs motivations for players to engage with each other to give a point to all this grinding and building. Even the spaces outside highsec are far too safe with the powerful free intel tool of local and other such crutches that enable the evasion that prevents conflict from even starting. Players need reasons to fight, and the ability to force each other to fight - Eve Online is not sustainable as a consensual small gang spaceship combat simulator as has been the primary development direction in recent years. Such consensual fights just for honour and bragging rights should be the exception, not the norm as it is today, and most fighting should take place for strategic reasons or for direct piracy or resource collection purposes if you want a meaningful game. This is just my opinion and perhaps I am reading the incomplete dataset I have totally wrong. Turning around the decline isn't my problem anyway, and it is up to CCP to produce a game that people want to play. Perhaps there are just not enough people who want this product in the changing gaming marketplace and Eve Online is doomed no matter what, but I think we can all say that this kinder, gentler Eve where being content is optional and no-one's fun can really be ruined is not working very well at retaining players. Maybe it is time to look at a return to the harsher roots of the game where taking risks and grouping up with players to leave the solo and safe space of highsec was truly rewarded, and actions had meaning and consequence is a universe much less saturated with resources and wealth. Whatever the prescription, I think if this trend continues into the fall and winter as steep as Teckos' chart shows, drastic intervention will be necessary to save the patient. There are clearly many things that need to be addressed but CCP could not do wrong by injecting some meaningful long-term objectives into the game, and step hard on the accelerator to get than new Jove space or whatever Jesus-feature they have planned out ASAP. It is not enough to just provide shiny toys and a pretty sandbox and tell us to go play - they need to engineer reasons to both build sand castles, and bash each other over the head into the sandbox as well. Why Do They Gank?
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1919	Posted - 2016.07.25 11:28:20 - [331] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Quote: hardly ,mmo right , make friends they work for this too. Hi guys can someone be a scout for me as I move my freighter, hmmmm sounds interesting yeah it will be fun , lets do it yay!!!! I know it is ridiculous in an MMO to make friends. How about you logoff and uninstall so that the rest of us can get on with things. No, really. Just logoff an uninstall. Idiot. Well it is so funny, get a friend to help you do the most boring activity in the whole game which is moving a freighter, what planet are you on. Oh goody when I skill up I want to be a scout for a freighter, great fun Its a favour i would do for a mate at the drop of a hat if required and i know any of us would do for me if i was stuck for a scout. Its not about fun its about keeping a significant investment alive. Christ man, What kind of jackass wouldnt scout a corpmate. So as mercs would you do convoy duty? COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1919	Posted - 2016.07.25 11:37:52 - [332] - Quote Black Pdero, Simply that you are mainly left with perople who know how not to get killed and who minimise risk, and people who are scammers, griefers, power gamers and player killers and they are all so risk everse it is silly. Sorry mate, you drove all the easy casuals away with mechanics that enabled easy rub nose in it kills, people went out of their way to kill new alliances by spies and thefts, all this easy rubbish you called emergent content has created a vacuum of inactivity and sloth, with low expectations. Couple of years ago I said we would get to this stage, yep not good is it. Yeah there is over capacity in industry now, mainly because you have run out of stuff to blow up easily... COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17027	Posted - 2016.07.25 11:44:13 - [333] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Its a favour i would do for a mate at the drop of a hat if required and i know any of us would do for me if i was stuck for a scout. Its not about fun its about keeping a significant investment alive. Christ man, What kind of jackass wouldnt scout a corpmate. So as mercs would you do convoy duty? never been asked to. Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1919	Posted - 2016.07.25 11:48:24 - [334] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Its a favour i would do for a mate at the drop of a hat if required and i know any of us would do for me if i was stuck for a scout. Its not about fun its about keeping a significant investment alive. Christ man, What kind of jackass wouldnt scout a corpmate. So as mercs would you do convoy duty? never been asked to. But some other mers were asked and refused saying it would cost too much and why was that? COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17027	Posted - 2016.07.25 11:53:22 - [335] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Its a favour i would do for a mate at the drop of a hat if required and i know any of us would do for me if i was stuck for a scout. Its not about fun its about keeping a significant investment alive. Christ man, What kind of jackass wouldnt scout a corpmate. So as mercs would you do convoy duty? never been asked to. But some other mers were asked and refused saying it would cost too much and why was that? ****ed if i know but i would guess because they were asked to fly their whole fleet around with the damn thing. thats besides the point though, you need 1 corp mate to help out and that isnt asking a lot Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1919	Posted - 2016.07.25 12:07:52 - [336] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Its a favour i would do for a mate at the drop of a hat if required and i know any of us would do for me if i was stuck for a scout. Its not about fun its about keeping a significant investment alive. Christ man, What kind of jackass wouldnt scout a corpmate. So as mercs would you do convoy duty? never been asked to. But some other mers were asked and refused saying it would cost too much and why was that? ****ed if i know but i would guess because they were asked to fly their whole fleet around with the damn thing. thats besides the point though, you need 1 corp mate to help out and that isnt asking a lot The point is, what exactly, remember Teckos made it as if it was somehow relevant. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
DJ Gravedigger Globecord 0	Posted - 2016.07.25 13:40:08 - [337] - Quote .
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17029	Posted - 2016.07.25 13:45:45 - [338] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Dracvlad wrote: But some other mers were asked and refused saying it would cost too much and why was that? ****ed if i know but i would guess because they were asked to fly their whole fleet around with the damn thing. thats besides the point though, you need 1 corp mate to help out and that isnt asking a lot The point is, what exactly, remember Teckos made it as if it was somehow relevant. Asking a fleet to folow you around i.e. Escort duty, is stupid yes, thats what you were driving at i know but Asking a corp mate to scout you about, web you into warp if needed isnt actually asking anything of them. Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 440	Posted - 2016.07.25 14:55:06 - [339] - Quote Well at least I now know that when the universe collapses and New Eden is but one constellation with the last 12 remaining players occupying it, Drac, Teckos, Pedro and me will have a final thunderdome at the sun till the end because we still won't agree who killed it. I'm pretty sure it's you. Yes you. Stop killing the game pls. thanks.
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 241	Posted - 2016.07.25 15:03:38 - [340] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Well at least I now know that when the universe collapses and New Eden is but one constellation with the last 12 remaining players occupying it, Drac, Teckos, Pedro and me will have a final thunderdome at the sun till the end because we still won't agree who killed it. I'm pretty sure it's you. Yes you. Stop killing the game pls. thanks. Y'all can still buy replacement ships from me. :) --Eternal Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
Darkwing Fiftytwo Zebra Corp Goonswarm Federation 16	Posted - 2016.07.25 17:13:42 - [341] - Quote They should try advertising on sci-fi channels.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5000	Posted - 2016.07.25 17:51:24 - [342] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Its a favour i would do for a mate at the drop of a hat if required and i know any of us would do for me if i was stuck for a scout. Its not about fun its about keeping a significant investment alive. Christ man, What kind of jackass wouldnt scout a corpmate. So as mercs would you do convoy duty? never been asked to. But some other mers were asked and refused saying it would cost too much and why was that? ****ed if i know but i would guess because they were asked to fly their whole fleet around with the damn thing. thats besides the point though, you need 1 corp mate to help out and that isnt asking a lot Right, not like you need a 250 man fleet to escort a freighter. You need a scout in HS. That's it. That scout can let you know what is on the other side of the gate. Can you jump in or not. If you want to be double damn sure, have the scout sit and watch when freighters come through. If you see a mach sitting there don't jump in. I had a friend try to get past the bumper once. He even got lucky and some random guy in a rapier webbed him. He still got caught. When you see a bad guy sitting there...dock up. Wait. Eventually they'll have another target or they'll move on. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5728	Posted - 2016.07.27 09:00:47 - [343] - Quote . Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5728	Posted - 2016.07.27 09:01:55 - [344] - Quote [quote=Black Pedro]Less people are logging in not because freighters require scouts. Capital ships have always required support, and this is after all a social game designed to reward grouping up. Why are less people logging in? Well like all of you I lack the data to say exactly why, and honestly, I am not sure even CCP with all the data could pinpoint the cause or causes given their inability to reverse trends.[quote] CCP does have the data but then there's something bigger than data and I have written about it (including a prediction chart that in 2011 foresaw EvE's playerbase shrinking a lot). There's this little known fact: world changes over time. The same criteria, the same definition of "fun", the same amount of "spare time", the very kind of players we had back in 2003 is not what we have today. CCP sadly did not or could not adapt EvE quick enough to keep up with the ever-changing RL. When they attempted, CCP did not have quality directors to take on the task. The breaking point (financially speaking) happened when CCP made the investment to implement two potential cash cows but failed in the most spectacular way: - WIS - In game shop WIS: CCP could have used any 3D party engine to implement a credible WIS technical preview. This would have costed a fraction of developing a whole 3D engine in house, even if WIS would have failed, the damage would have been limited and budget could have been moved to other venues, in example, making PI something more than a sad joke. In game shop: CCP could have slowly transitioned to a micro-transactions business. Even the "less than bright" EA managed to save SWTOR from utter failure by switching business model to a decent microtransactions model. EvE never got that. We got some terrible CCP director flashing his $1,000 jeans. Not only that alienated EvE players opinion but colored the new EvE feature as "something for the elite", that is, something that shall NOT be able to support or replace EvE's subs based business model. The bad decision got steadily reinforced by implemeting a quite horrid user interface for it, "monocles for the few elite" that once again turned the large potential payers base away and shortly after, very mediocre looking dress material. Compare to the gorgeous looking Amarr stuff we used to see before our characters had been migrated into "3D"... just replicating the same laced dresses, the circlets, the necklaces... they could have made $5 here, $5 there. But no, we got this very stock looking, ugly greenish crap you can still see exactly on my portrait. Besides these choices, we have the fact that playerbase is changing. And it's not just about new players. Veterans now have families, tighter schedules, less free time. Gone are the days of 12h nullsec roams or 3.30am "alliance ops" wake ups. What about new players? Those more accustomed playing EvE on a smartphone (something which they are not going to see)? Those who can or want to play 30 minutes and then "park ship" and do other stuff? What about keeping the old players happy but also attract the new ones? If EvE cannot cope with the new way of living and even new way of being, it's going to slowly decline. I have lived several MMOs shutdowns by now, and it's never been a nice thing to witness, at all. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17710	Posted - 2016.07.27 09:10:39 - [345] - Quote Darkwing Fiftytwo wrote: They should try advertising on sci-fi channels. Those channels don't show sci-fi these days.
Tao Dolcino EVE University Ivy League 565	Posted - 2016.07.27 11:54:45 - [346] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: I have lived several MMOs shutdowns by now, and it's never been a nice thing to witness, at all. What is CCP telling about that ? Do they at least aknowledge the facts ? And do they have a plan to save EVE from being populated only by a few hundreds "elite" players while falling down ? Or have they already given up and are they just trying to milk us as much as possible before the end ? CCP 2015 : "Fluff is good"
Judaa K'Marr Power-Hug Training Bootcamp 18	Posted - 2016.07.27 14:10:29 - [347] - Quote Thing is it didn't peak in 2003, it peaked in 2013. It's not that far into history.
Shallanna Yassavi Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 278	Posted - 2016.07.27 14:31:26 - [348] - Quote Trying to move that ship through [insert choke system here] with gankers there might actually be fun. They decide to pull the trigger, your friends have something like a fight on their hands. A signature :o
Lord LazyGhost Duty. Mighty Wings. 502	Posted - 2016.07.27 15:34:36 - [349] - Quote big change to being able to multibox and broadcast commands made numbers plummet as well. as massive 200 man mineing fleets disapeared over night lots of people who ran incursion multi boxing stopped accounts plex prices made people in tight budgets get rid of accounts. also ways to remmber to do most things these days solo you need 2 accounts. you cant even haul in HS with out a scout toon. as noone in there right mind is going to spend hours and hours of their time jumping one system ahead of you incase your freighter gets ganked.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5730	Posted - 2016.07.27 15:54:17 - [350] - Quote Judaa K'Marr wrote: Thing is it didn't peak in 2003, it peaked in 2013. It's not that far into history. Well, the previous players "breed" learned about EvE some time before 2003, started playing say in 2005 and got tired several years later. I am an average guy who started somewhere around 2007 and got "bored" of EvE in 2015 (I have achieved every objective I have set to myself). Also, if you think about it, the decline started getting quicker once CCP stopped releasing "expansions". The last REALLY, REALLY cool stuff I recall, is Apocrypha, which ironically has been labelled as a "very successful yet bad for quality" expansion by CCP. Well, as a regular player, I really awaited for "the new stuff" with anticipation. If I had not yearly subs, I'd certainly subbed 1 month before expansion and for at least 3-4 months past expansion, just to try the new stuff out. Actually this very behavior exhibited by the thousands is what made me very EvE rich, as there are certain commodities whose price massively spiked around new expansions and I took advantage of them. Therefore I may safely conclude that the above "sub 1 month before and then some months past expansion" behavior is not just mine, but reflects some thousands of players. CCP has to study very well what happened to cause this players bleeding. EvE is A-WE-SO-ME when well populated, but it's very sad and its economy saddens (!!!) when players drop. Please, CCP, keep markets happy! Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Zanar Skwigelf Boa Innovations Brothers of Tangra 8	Posted - 2016.07.27 16:23:24 - [351] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Also, if you think about it, the decline started getting quicker once CCP stopped releasing "expansions". You complain about CCP not adjusting with the times and then complain about them not doing expansions anymore? I don't play that many different games anymore, but Riot and Paradox doing frequent patches to LOL, Crusader Kings 2, etc. is a much more responsive, user friendly way of introducing new content compared with how other companies lurch from expansion to expansion. Patch introduction of new features instead of expansions keeps the list of adjustments we have to make down, and allows for faster response to new/old problems on CCPs end (theoretically).
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 54	Posted - 2016.07.27 16:49:56 - [352] - Quote When I was playing World of Warcraft I loved the way they made ( still make I think ) everything new very clear to understand and very well explained to everyone. When there were patches thy well are advertised clearly on their website on a very visible position some time before them, they were advertised clearly in the login screen and when I logged into the game I had many windows telling me what was new. This is a user friendly way to deal with your customers and it means you are deemed important and you deserve to have all the informations easily available, you can decide to use them or not but they are there in front of you. Their style can be deemed as a too colorful one so someone may not like it, but style or not everything was accurate, and they showed respect for their customers. I think other companies, including CCP, should give a look at their way to keep players updated on new things and learn some from them maybe.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5730	Posted - 2016.07.27 17:09:30 - [353] - Quote Zanar Skwigelf wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Also, if you think about it, the decline started getting quicker once CCP stopped releasing "expansions". You complain about CCP not adjusting with the times and then complain about them not doing expansions anymore? I am not complaining, I am trying to analyze possible factors that caused a player drop. I stopped having any need to complain in 2015, when I achieved my last EvE objective and therefore EvE to me is "won" and over. Nice, and happy, and I love EvE, but ... completed. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 34	Posted - 2016.07.27 17:57:20 - [354] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: When I was playing World of Warcraft I loved the way they made ( still make I think ) everything new very clear to understand and very well explained to everyone. When there were patches thy well are advertised clearly on their website on a very visible position some time before them, they were advertised clearly in the login screen and when I logged into the game I had many windows telling me what was new. This is a user friendly way to deal with your customers and it means you are deemed important and you deserve to have all the informations easily available, you can decide to use them or not but they are there in front of you. Their style can be deemed as a too colorful one so someone may not like it, but style or not everything was accurate, and they showed respect for their customers. I think other companies, including CCP, should give a look at their way to keep players updated on new things and learn some from them maybe. Edit: for example I've read somewhere there is some kind os cuncil of players calle CSM or something like that. I don't know if it's something official or what but if for example there are 3 or 4 candidates and I can vote for one having similar ideas to mine, I would be very happy to have a big screen when I enter the game and have some columns with their name and their general ideas and maybe every candidate with a link where I can find details and a button similar to a "poll" if I decide to give my vote. It's just an example of a user-friendly way to make players partecipate to decisions or at least keep them update about what happens in-game. https://updates.eveonline.com/ https://community.eveonline.com/home/ Really? CCP does ALL of that and more.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5026	Posted - 2016.07.27 17:58:11 - [355] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Edit: for example I've read somewhere there is some kind os cuncil of players calle CSM or something like that. I don't know if it's something official or what but if for example there are 3 or 4 candidates and I can vote for one having similar ideas to mine, I would be very happy to have a big screen when I enter the game and have some columns with their name and their general ideas and maybe every candidate with a link where I can find details and a button similar to a "poll" if I decide to give my vote. It's just an example of a user-friendly way to make players partecipate to decisions or at least keep them update about what happens in-game. There is this thing called google.... https://www.google.com/search?q=council+of+stellar+management&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 https://community.eveonline.com/community/csm/ Anything else I can hold your hand with? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 54	Posted - 2016.07.27 18:03:49 - [356] - Quote Yes, I noticed that information exists. Maybe it's the way they are showed that makes them not easily available, not friendly. It's like game tutorials, informations are there actually but the way they are put there are not friendly to the newcomers, and it generates confusion. When I see something I analize it with the eyes of someone that has no time to "dig" informations, to "study" them. But again maybe it's only an impression.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17092	Posted - 2016.07.27 18:22:35 - [357] - Quote Thats odd , shure hasent eve been famous for being a friendly and easy going environment. Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 34	Posted - 2016.07.27 18:57:47 - [358] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Yes, I noticed that information exists. Maybe it's the way they are showed that makes them not easily available, not friendly. It's like game tutorials, informations are there actually but the way they are put there are not friendly to the newcomers, and it generates confusion. When I see something I analize it with the eyes of someone that has no time to "dig" informations, to "study" them. But again maybe it's only an impression. I'm really trying to figure out how to answer this without being rude. Look at the two home pages and they are very similar. https://www.eveonline.com/ https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ I think you are just grasping at straws at this point.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 314	Posted - 2016.07.27 19:01:27 - [359] - Quote TBH i don't think Lucy is going to be satisfied until he gets a formal, public apology from CCP in which they admit that their game is horrible and worse than any other game on earth....or he gets himself banned.
Caco De'mon New Order Logistics CODE. 6	Posted - 2016.07.27 19:07:42 - [360] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: TBH i don't think Lucy is going to be satisfied until he gets a formal, public apology from CCP in which they admit that their game is horrible and worse than any other game on earth....or he gets himself banned. Yep..classic "it's everyone else's fault" mentality... *"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26436	Posted - 2016.07.27 19:10:02 - [361] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Yes, I noticed that information exists. Maybe it's the way they are showed that makes them not easily available, not friendly. It's like game tutorials, informations are there actually but the way they are put there are not friendly to the newcomers, and it generates confusion. When I see something I analize it with the eyes of someone that has no time to "dig" informations, to "study" them. But again maybe it's only an impression. TL;DR you can't be arsed to do something that you, mistakenly, think other people should be doing for you Stop being a lazy twonk and do something for yourself instead of expecting us to do it for you. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Algarion Getz Aideron Corp 184	Posted - 2016.07.27 19:21:10 - [362] - Quote Yun Kuai wrote: In my own personal opinion, I feel there are 4 main reaons why the player count is no longer at the 45k average and peaking in the 60k numbers about 5 years ago. 1) The biggest problem area is that in my almost 8 of years of playing, the game's core mechanics (read pve) are almost exactly the same as when I started. That means 8 years of grinding the same anoms, the same missions, the same mining, the same industry, the same incursions, etc. 2) The inflation factor has a big turn of for a lot of people; i.e. too much work for to little reward. I remember when PLEX were first introduced and sat around 300mil. At the time those were still considered quite expensive, especially when you could buy a dominix hull for 50mil. That meant I could rat in a haven for 30mins each day and have enough isk to lose a BS doing silly stuff or I could buy a hand full of BCs, dozens of cruisers, etc. I had a lot more fun because I had a lot of time to actually go pew pew. 3) Cookie cutter class changes also took a lot of fun out flying different ships. Almost all hulls now follow 1-2 standard fits as nothing else really fits anymore. All of the ships lost a lot of their faction's uniqueness during tiericde and it suddenly became pretty much similar ships using slightly different weapon systems. 4) Nullsec decay and blue donoughts lead to a large number of people quitting the game as CCP dragged their feet years too long to change the nullsec mechanics. The new sov at least gets people actively playing again, but there's still room for improvement even if it was too little too late. 5)* I won't classify this one as a major issue but I feel with all of the 3rd party sites that monitor everything I feel like the game, espeically nullsec is no longer wild and dangerous. Too many areas are mapped down to the most minute details and have lost the appeal since there's nothing left to discover. More emergent gameplay that can't be calculated down to an exact science; read random generator, would be good for the game as it would add some much needed "newess" for everyone. I agree with everything except 3. (Before tiercide a few ships like Rifter, Thrasher, Hurricane, Drake, etc dominated and other ships where considered crap.) I think 1 & 2 are the main reasons why the EVE playerbase is shrinking. The gaming industry is huge now, there thousands of other games and most of these games are easy to learn and give you lots of rewards. You start the game and the action/fun starts almost immediately. All without a monthly fee. EVE on the other hand ... Well, EVE often feels like a job. Grinding ISK, getting all the stuff together for your fit, making 20+ jumps to get to the action, ... all these activities are boring chores which are not necessary in other games. The lack of ISK sinks causes inflation, which makes EVE super grindy because the PvE rewards are pretty much the same. Too much work for too little reward, like you said.
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 55	Posted - 2016.07.27 19:29:25 - [363] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: TBH i don't think Lucy is going to be satisfied until he gets a formal, public apology from CCP in which they admit that their game is horrible and worse than any other game on earth....or he gets himself banned. I never said this game is horrible, otherwise I would not play it at all. I think this game is awesome but there are some big walls that keep a solid potential base of player on the other side of the wall.
Giaus Felix Hedion University Amarr Empire 162	Posted - 2016.07.27 19:32:15 - [364] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: TBH i don't think Lucy is going to be satisfied until he gets a formal, public apology from CCP in which they admit that their game is horrible and worse than any other game on earth....or he gets himself banned. I never said this game is horrible, otherwise I would not play it at all. I think this game is awesome but there are some big walls that keep a solid potential base of player on the other side of the wall. Have you ever considered that this might be deliberate? Look up the definition of niche, particularly in the context of commerce and marketing. I am Ralph's junk DNA.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 35	Posted - 2016.07.27 19:33:44 - [365] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: TBH i don't think Lucy is going to be satisfied until he gets a formal, public apology from CCP in which they admit that their game is horrible and worse than any other game on earth....or he gets himself banned. I never said this game is horrible, otherwise I would not play it at all. I think this game is awesome but there are some big walls that keep a solid potential base of player on the other side of the wall. If by wall you mean game defining design elements and principles then yes. I will ask again, for at least the third time this week without getting a single answer, why does this game have to be for everyone? Why can't people play the game it is for what it is?
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 55	Posted - 2016.07.27 19:38:30 - [366] - Quote Caco De'mon wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: TBH i don't think Lucy is going to be satisfied until he gets a formal, public apology from CCP in which they admit that their game is horrible and worse than any other game on earth....or he gets himself banned. Yep..classic "it's everyone else's fault" mentality... mmm no, I think it's also fault of the mentality of younger players. They probably want things to be easy to access, CCP is probably trying to get in contact with them, giving them some more informations and so on. My impression is that they need some more effords to make the information not only available but easier to be grasped. It's like the dailies and the new event thing, if I can make a personal comparison, "dailies" were put there in a primitive stage then removed shortly after while event is nicely presented but it seems a grindfest and it clashes quite much with the freedom concept of a sandox game. It's all half blur and half messy even if it gives the idea of a will to reach new "young" players.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17096	Posted - 2016.07.27 19:49:13 - [367] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Caco De'mon wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: TBH i don't think Lucy is going to be satisfied until he gets a formal, public apology from CCP in which they admit that their game is horrible and worse than any other game on earth....or he gets himself banned. Yep..classic "it's everyone else's fault" mentality... mmm no, I think it's also fault of the mentality of younger players. They probably want things to be easy to access, CCP is probably trying to get in contact with them, giving them some more informations and so on. My impression is that they need some more effords to make the information not only available but easier to be grasped. It's like the dailies and the new event thing, if I can make a personal comparison, "dailies" were put there in a primitive stage then removed shortly after while event is nicely presented but it seems a grindfest and it clashes quite much with the freedom concept of a sandox game. It's all half blur and half messy even if it gives the idea of a will to reach new "young" players. would you like areoplane noises with that? Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 58	Posted - 2016.07.27 19:49:18 - [368] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: TBH i don't think Lucy is going to be satisfied until he gets a formal, public apology from CCP in which they admit that their game is horrible and worse than any other game on earth....or he gets himself banned. I never said this game is horrible, otherwise I would not play it at all. I think this game is awesome but there are some big walls that keep a solid potential base of player on the other side of the wall. If by wall you mean game defining design elements and principles then yes. I will ask again, for at least the third time this week without getting a single answer, why does this game have to be for everyone? Why can't people play the game it is for what it is? I don't know if a game needs to be for everyone, probably not. I also don't know if there is a "critical mass" of paying players that can justify the existence of a game ( intended as the cost of the basic stuff for it ) or if there is a kind of critical mass that gives software house a kind of "long breath" allowing them to have a investment capacity that makes the game upgraded faster and better. This only game developers know and I suppose shareholders would never let any negative information to be published, while I imagine positive informations are easily published to increase shares value. But this is out of a discussion between players, players can have only "impressions" I think about a game situation.
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 250	Posted - 2016.07.27 19:52:20 - [369] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: Caco De'mon wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: TBH i don't think Lucy is going to be satisfied until he gets a formal, public apology from CCP in which they admit that their game is horrible and worse than any other game on earth....or he gets himself banned. Yep..classic "it's everyone else's fault" mentality... mmm no, I think it's also fault of the mentality of younger players. They probably want things to be easy to access, CCP is probably trying to get in contact with them, giving them some more informations and so on. My impression is that they need some more effords to make the information not only available but easier to be grasped. It's like the dailies and the new event thing, if I can make a personal comparison, "dailies" were put there in a primitive stage then removed shortly after while event is nicely presented but it seems a grindfest and it clashes quite much with the freedom concept of a sandox game. It's all half blur and half messy even if it gives the idea of a will to reach new "young" players. would you like areoplane noises with that? +1 for airplane noises while in my 1/2 of a B-25 bomber...er I mean CATALYST! --Gadget goes Vrooom Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 36	Posted - 2016.07.27 19:52:52 - [370] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: TBH i don't think Lucy is going to be satisfied until he gets a formal, public apology from CCP in which they admit that their game is horrible and worse than any other game on earth....or he gets himself banned. I never said this game is horrible, otherwise I would not play it at all. I think this game is awesome but there are some big walls that keep a solid potential base of player on the other side of the wall. If by wall you mean game defining design elements and principles then yes. I will ask again, for at least the third time this week without getting a single answer, why does this game have to be for everyone? Why can't people play the game it is for what it is? I don't know if a game needs to be for everyone, probably not. I also don't know if there is a "critical mass" of paying players that can justify the existence of a game ( intended as the cost of the basic stuff for it ) or if there is a kind of critical mass that gives software house a kind of "long breath" allowing them to have a investment capacity that makes the game upgraded faster and better. This only game developers know and I suppose shareholders would never let any negative information to be published, while I imagine positive informations are easily published to increase shares value. But this is out of a discussion between players, players can have only "impressions" I think about a game situation. Thank you for answering one of my questions.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 318	Posted - 2016.07.27 19:55:54 - [371] - Quote Lucy...I still don't necessarily agree with everything you are saying - but thank you for finally coming out and simply stating your opinions, instead of asking leading questions and trying to force people to come to the conclusion you want them to. These forums are still full of trolls, and they are still going to yell at you/etc probably - but at least they'll be arguing with what you are saying instead of the way you are saying it. o7
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5027	Posted - 2016.07.27 20:08:28 - [372] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Caco De'mon wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: TBH i don't think Lucy is going to be satisfied until he gets a formal, public apology from CCP in which they admit that their game is horrible and worse than any other game on earth....or he gets himself banned. Yep..classic "it's everyone else's fault" mentality... mmm no, I think it's also fault of the mentality of younger players. They probably want things to be easy to access, CCP is probably trying to get in contact with them, giving them some more informations and so on. My impression is that they need some more effords to make the information not only available but easier to be grasped. It's like the dailies and the new event thing, if I can make a personal comparison, "dailies" were put there in a primitive stage then removed shortly after while event is nicely presented but it seems a grindfest and it clashes quite much with the freedom concept of a sandox game. It's all half blur and half messy even if it gives the idea of a will to reach new "young" players. Most games are grind fests unless you open your wallet. Take WoT, if you open your wallet you can progress much faster than if you don't. Yes, early on Eve can be difficult as it does have a steep learning curve, and there is nothing like a match maker found in many other games. So a 3 month old character can find himself embroiled in a fight with a 3 year old character. That might look unfair to lots of people, but that is Eve. Nobody assures you of a fair fight. Your solutions are to not fight, fight and die, change the odds. One way to do the latter is join an established corp with "veterans" who can help you figure things out and run up the learning curve faster. Eve is about spontaneous order when you get right down to it. Players forming corporations, and then alliances, and even coalitions, for the latter there is not much in the way of mechanics for that. There are other examples as well such as OTEC. (OTEC was an agreement between coalitions/alliances that had technetium moons to not fight each other over those moons and to influence the price of technetium, at the time technetium was crucial for inventing pretty much all T2 modules, and as such, its price was already crazy high.) Have you ever seen the movie the Untouchables? There is an exchange between two of the "good guys", Malone: You wanna know how to get Capone? They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. That's the Chicago way! And that's how you get Capone. Now do you want to do that? Are you ready to do that? I'm offering you a deal. Do you want this deal? That is what it is like in Eve. Don't fight fair...the other guy isn't. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Rapala Armiron Arton Yachting and Angling Club Domain Research and Mining Inst. 18	Posted - 2016.07.27 20:41:49 - [373] - Quote Algarion Getz wrote: Yun Kuai wrote: In my own personal opinion, I feel there are 4 main reaons why the player count is no longer at the 45k average and peaking in the 60k numbers about 5 years ago. 1) The biggest problem area is that in my almost 8 of years of playing, the game's core mechanics (read pve) are almost exactly the same as when I started. That means 8 years of grinding the same anoms, the same missions, the same mining, the same industry, the same incursions, etc. 2) The inflation factor has a big turn of for a lot of people; i.e. too much work for to little reward. I remember when PLEX were first introduced and sat around 300mil. At the time those were still considered quite expensive, especially when you could buy a dominix hull for 50mil. That meant I could rat in a haven for 30mins each day and have enough isk to lose a BS doing silly stuff or I could buy a hand full of BCs, dozens of cruisers, etc. I had a lot more fun because I had a lot of time to actually go pew pew. 3) Cookie cutter class changes also took a lot of fun out flying different ships. Almost all hulls now follow 1-2 standard fits as nothing else really fits anymore. All of the ships lost a lot of their faction's uniqueness during tiericde and it suddenly became pretty much similar ships using slightly different weapon systems. 4) Nullsec decay and blue donoughts lead to a large number of people quitting the game as CCP dragged their feet years too long to change the nullsec mechanics. The new sov at least gets people actively playing again, but there's still room for improvement even if it was too little too late. 5)* I won't classify this one as a major issue but I feel with all of the 3rd party sites that monitor everything I feel like the game, espeically nullsec is no longer wild and dangerous. Too many areas are mapped down to the most minute details and have lost the appeal since there's nothing left to discover. More emergent gameplay that can't be calculated down to an exact science; read random generator, would be good for the game as it would add some much needed "newess" for everyone. I agree with everything except 3. (Before tiercide a few ships like Rifter, Thrasher, Hurricane, Drake, etc dominated and other ships where considered crap.) I think 1 & 2 are the main reasons why the EVE playerbase is shrinking. The gaming industry is huge now, there are thousands of other games and most of these games are easy to learn and give you lots of rewards. You start the game and the action/fun starts almost immediately. All without a monthly fee. EVE on the other hand ... Well, EVE often feels like a job. Grinding ISK, getting all the stuff together for your fit, making 20+ jumps to get to the action, ... all these activities are boring chores which are not necessary in other games. The lack of ISK sinks causes inflation, which makes EVE super grindy because the PvE rewards are pretty much the same. Too much work for too little reward, like you said. I disagree - when this game was pulling 45k it was an old game - people always pointed that out - that despite it being an old game it was still increase users. So what changed? Well one thing the isoboxer changes certainly had an impact. But imo, the biggest reason for the change is that ccp started tinkering with the game to make it cater more and more to causals. If you look at eve - its famous learning curve can be viewed as hazing. Casuals couldnt get past the learning curve. Oth if you survived the learning curve you were a dedicated hardcore player and you stuck with the game. So what brought hardcore players into the game? IMO it was the ability to interact with other players unique and different ways. This is why after every big news store about corp thefts, assassinations and big battles eve sees a bump in usage. CCP then started to tinker with core mechanics, making eve a softer friendlier world in an effort to attract causals - the problem is that there are many games that cater to causal players and almost all of them do it better then eve. And casuals by definition have no loyalty - when they get bored they leave and they will get bored because eve pve has always sucked and it will always continue to suck because there just only so many ways you can recast a "go shoot the red xs" as being new and fresh. Oth there are very few games that cater to hard core pvp types and even fewer that do it in an open world environment. So by making eve friendlier - ccp made the game more accessible to folk that had better options and wouldnt stay around anyway while angering its core players who have stuck with the game through thick and thin and now found that their reason for playing the game was no longer in existence. Can flipping, barge changes, jump fat, buddy list changes - have all had a price. And when a hard core player decides to retire - he takes with him not just his main but all his support accounts. Also tiercide sucked. it was anti-sand box at its core. It did nothing to balance game play - all it did was shuffle the deck and create new flavors of the month. Worse it took away choice - ccp imposed roles on everything. Yes you could still use a ship counter to its role but you are punished for doing so. The net result is that in a supposed sandbox game ccp is telling you what your ship is good for and how it should be fit which has lead to a reduction of choice and freedom of operation. Just look at the osprey - sure it was a meh ship - but you could use it as a miner, logi, or a anti-can flipper. It was great fun hiding in a belt surprising can flippers who should have known better. It was also great fun spider tanking the things because everyone underestimated the ship - now choice has been removed - and the only option is as a newbee logi. And the idea that tiers have been removed is laughable eg. logi you have t1, t2, capital - all as separate tiers.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5029	Posted - 2016.07.28 00:11:05 - [374] - Quote Rapala Armiron wrote: I disagree - when this game was pulling 45k it was an old game - people always pointed that out - that despite it being an old game it was still increase users. So what changed? Well one thing the isoboxer changes certainly had an impact. But imo, the biggest reason for the change is that ccp started tinkering with the game to make it cater more and more to causals. If you look at eve - its famous learning curve can be viewed as hazing. Casuals couldnt get past the learning curve. Oth if you survived the learning curve you were a dedicated hardcore player and you stuck with the game. So what brought hardcore players into the game? IMO it was the ability to interact with other players unique and different ways. This is why after every big news store about corp thefts, assassinations and big battles eve sees a bump in usage. CCP then started to tinker with core mechanics, making eve a softer friendlier world in an effort to attract causals - the problem is that there are many games that cater to causal players and almost all of them do it better then eve. And casuals by definition have no loyalty - when they get bored they leave and they will get bored because eve pve has always sucked and it will always continue to suck because there just only so many ways you can recast a "go shoot the red xs" as being new and fresh. Oth there are very few games that cater to hard core pvp types and even fewer that do it in an open world environment. So by making eve friendlier - ccp made the game more accessible to folk that had better options and wouldnt stay around anyway while angering its core players who have stuck with the game through thick and thin and now found that their reason for playing the game was no longer in existence. Can flipping, barge changes, jump fat, buddy list changes - have all had a price. And when a hard core player decides to retire - he takes with him not just his main but all his support accounts. Also tiercide sucked. it was anti-sand box at its core. It did nothing to balance game play - all it did was shuffle the deck and create new flavors of the month. Worse it took away choice - ccp imposed roles on everything. Yes you could still use a ship counter to its role but you are punished for doing so. The net result is that in a supposed sandbox game ccp is telling you what your ship is good for and how it should be fit which has lead to a reduction of choice and freedom of operation. Just look at the osprey - sure it was a meh ship - but you could use it as a miner, logi, or a anti-can flipper. It was great fun hiding in a belt surprising can flippers who should have known better. It was also great fun spider tanking the things because everyone underestimated the ship - now choice has been removed - and the only option is as a newbee logi. And the idea that tiers have been removed is laughable eg. logi you have t1, t2, capital - all as separate tiers. One thing I'd be curious about is the frequency of ganking. To listen to complainers they make it see like it is very common. I have no idea. I don't have any data and neither do the complainers. One thing I'd find extremely funny if ganking is actually more common than prior to all the nerfs to ganking. In that case I'd laugh good and long. BTW, there is a stellar example of a very, very imprudent person on zkillboard, frontpage. Search for yodawg123 aele. This guy managed to lose almost 209 billion in skill injectors (about $5,000 US). Also, 169 million SP sunk out of the game too. And in looking at zkill for July 26 it tells me that 33 retrievers were ganked. This is probably an over estimate in that to arrive at this number I counted all retrievers killed in a 0.5 or higher system. Some of those kills could have been "legal" kills. In contrast, using the same criteria 2 skiffs were ganked. Further there were a number of non-skiff killmails on the skiff page 8 in fact. And in looking at those ganks they look like war decs. Take away message...oh Hell, never mind. Keep on being a target. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Blade Darth Room for Improvement Limited Expectations 45	Posted - 2016.07.28 02:23:19 - [375] - Quote Need a client capable of running on a cell phone. Or a cell phone from the future.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26437	Posted - 2016.07.28 03:00:06 - [376] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: One thing I'd be curious about is the frequency of ganking. To listen to complainers they make it see like it is very common. I have no idea. I don't have any data and neither do the complainers. As you've already found out the data is pretty limited, being pretty much limited to killboards and dotlan. Although killboards don't record every kill due to their reliance on API keys, they do record the vast majority and as such provide a fairly accurate representation of the data to be getting on with when used in conjunction with dotlan to come to some very basic conclusions. Some things can be inferred if we make some assumptions about how much traffic through a particular system is of one ship class; which obviously makes any conclusions relying on them debatable. What we need is a better data set to work with, I'd love to see what CCP Quant could do with the data set he has available to him; we know it's kind of possible because Dr Eggnog did not dissimilar analysis when he concluded that Exhumers were exploding at an all time low in 2012. Quote: One thing I'd find extremely funny if ganking is actually more common than prior to all the nerfs to ganking. In that case I'd laugh good and long. lol that'd be a classic case of you reap what you sow. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Rapala Armiron Arton Yachting and Angling Club Domain Research and Mining Inst. 21	Posted - 2016.07.28 03:24:45 - [377] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Rapala Armiron wrote: I disagree - when this game was pulling 45k it was an old game - people always pointed that out - that despite it being an old game it was still increase users. So what changed? Well one thing the isoboxer changes certainly had an impact. But imo, the biggest reason for the change is that ccp started tinkering with the game to make it cater more and more to causals. If you look at eve - its famous learning curve can be viewed as hazing. Casuals couldnt get past the learning curve. Oth if you survived the learning curve you were a dedicated hardcore player and you stuck with the game. So what brought hardcore players into the game? IMO it was the ability to interact with other players unique and different ways. This is why after every big news store about corp thefts, assassinations and big battles eve sees a bump in usage. CCP then started to tinker with core mechanics, making eve a softer friendlier world in an effort to attract causals - the problem is that there are many games that cater to causal players and almost all of them do it better then eve. And casuals by definition have no loyalty - when they get bored they leave and they will get bored because eve pve has always sucked and it will always continue to suck because there just only so many ways you can recast a "go shoot the red xs" as being new and fresh. Oth there are very few games that cater to hard core pvp types and even fewer that do it in an open world environment. So by making eve friendlier - ccp made the game more accessible to folk that had better options and wouldnt stay around anyway while angering its core players who have stuck with the game through thick and thin and now found that their reason for playing the game was no longer in existence. Can flipping, barge changes, jump fat, buddy list changes - have all had a price. And when a hard core player decides to retire - he takes with him not just his main but all his support accounts. Also tiercide sucked. it was anti-sand box at its core. It did nothing to balance game play - all it did was shuffle the deck and create new flavors of the month. Worse it took away choice - ccp imposed roles on everything. Yes you could still use a ship counter to its role but you are punished for doing so. The net result is that in a supposed sandbox game ccp is telling you what your ship is good for and how it should be fit which has lead to a reduction of choice and freedom of operation. Just look at the osprey - sure it was a meh ship - but you could use it as a miner, logi, or a anti-can flipper. It was great fun hiding in a belt surprising can flippers who should have known better. It was also great fun spider tanking the things because everyone underestimated the ship - now choice has been removed - and the only option is as a newbee logi. And the idea that tiers have been removed is laughable eg. logi you have t1, t2, capital - all as separate tiers. One thing I'd be curious about is the frequency of ganking. To listen to complainers they make it see like it is very common. I have no idea. I don't have any data and neither do the complainers. One thing I'd find extremely funny if ganking is actually more common than prior to all the nerfs to ganking. In that case I'd laugh good and long. BTW, there is a stellar example of a very, very imprudent person on zkillboard, frontpage. Search for yodawg123 aele. This guy managed to lose almost 209 billion in skill injectors (about $5,000 US). Also, 169 million SP sunk out of the game too. And in looking at zkill for July 26 it tells me that 33 retrievers were ganked. This is probably an over estimate in that to arrive at this number I counted all retrievers killed in a 0.5 or higher system. Some of those kills could have been "legal" kills. In contrast, using the same criteria 2 skiffs were ganked. Further there were a number of non-skiff killmails on the skiff page 8 in fact. And in looking at those ganks they look like war decs. Take away message...oh Hell, never mind. Keep on being a target. Ganking is and has always been extremely rare. You can go your entire eve career without being ganked. And you can reduce your possibility of being ganked by taking reasonable precautions like using a procuer or mining in and out of the way place or not being afk while flying that freighter. Doesnt mean ganking is impossible - just that compared to the population of eve - the chance that you are going to get ganked on anyone day is de minimis
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26437	Posted - 2016.07.28 04:23:04 - [378] - Quote Rapala Armiron wrote: Ganking is and has always been extremely rare. You can go your entire eve career without being ganked. And you can reduce your possibility of being ganked by taking reasonable precautions like using a procuer or mining in and out of the way place or not being afk while flying that freighter. Apparently being at the keyboard or sacrificing yield for tank is completely unacceptable for some, they flatly refuse to take precautions while demanding CCP change the game so that they're safer; the latter sometimes backfires on them when CCP acquiesce, with gankers adapting their technique and using the changes to their advantage, against the people who lobbied for them. Quote: Doesnt mean ganking is impossible - just that compared to the population of eve - the chance that you are going to get ganked on anyone day is de minimis. Agreed it's not impossible, but it takes the likes of CODE. and MiniLuv to succeed at it. The various changes over the years have forced gankers to down-ship in order to make it a worthwhile activity, which in turn often requires numbers. The risk is minimal as you say, and with a little effort can be made even more so, gankers cull the "weak" and the "sickly" from the "herd", it's almost natural selection at work . We try and educate the newbies in NCQA about how not to get ganked and the reality of being a little fish in an ocean full of much bigger fish, but I'd say that a majority of newbies have no idea the forums exist, or that nowhere is safe; CCP could certainly do more to nudge newbies towards places like NCQA and Eve Uni as part of the tutorials, which themselves need work to make them less of a wall of text, or in the case of opportunities pretty useless. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 59	Posted - 2016.07.28 06:36:37 - [379] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Rapala Armiron wrote: Ganking is and has always been extremely rare. You can go your entire eve career without being ganked. And you can reduce your possibility of being ganked by taking reasonable precautions like using a procuer or mining in and out of the way place or not being afk while flying that freighter. Apparently being at the keyboard or sacrificing yield for tank is completely unacceptable for some, they flatly refuse to take precautions while demanding CCP change the game so that they're safer; the latter sometimes backfires on them when CCP acquiesce, with gankers adapting their technique and using the changes to their advantage, against the people who lobbied for them. Quote: Doesnt mean ganking is impossible - just that compared to the population of eve - the chance that you are going to get ganked on anyone day is de minimis. Agreed it's not impossible, but it takes the likes of CODE. and MiniLuv to succeed at it. The various changes over the years have forced gankers to down-ship in order to make it a worthwhile activity, which in turn often requires numbers. The risk is minimal as you say, and with a little effort can be made even more so, gankers cull the greedy and the lazy from the population, the ones that learn from it rarely get ganked again, it's almost natural selection at work . We try and educate the newbies in NCQA about how not to get ganked and the reality of being a little fish in an ocean full of much bigger fish, but I'd say that a majority of newbies have no idea the forums exist, or that nowhere is safe; CCP could certainly do more to nudge newbies towards places like NCQA and Eve Uni as part of the tutorials, which themselves need work to make them less of a wall of text, or in the case of opportunities pretty useless. In my opinion sometimes it's lack of information, sometimes it can be laziness or desire to shorten mining-hauling times. I give you an example. The redeem system is not clear at all for many, in particular for newbies when it's connected to the market system. I had a Corpmate that was intelligent and asked before reediming a plex he bought. He didn't know how important it is to redeem it in a big hub and in particular in jita ( he didn't actually know what jita is ). He was lucky, others explained him to travel to jita and then redeem and sell the plex without undocking and so on, but I suppose it's not unfrequent to have a enthusiastic new player that buys a plex, redeems it and then he find he's in the wrong place to sell it ( not to say it can happen he tries to transport it to a better place unaware he can be scanned down and stealed from it ). I would not deem that kind of player a stupid one, or an unattentive one, in particular during the first weeks of gameplay. Some mechanics I found in many other mmos ( what's calling soulbounding for using a general expression ) are not applied here. It's a choice not to apply that mechanics, but because Eve is more an exception than a common game about it, I think it should be clear ( with big game warnings ) that here everything is different.
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 484	Posted - 2016.07.28 07:07:38 - [380] - Quote I have no idea what other MMO mechanics you're talking about, but I would offer a free piece of advice: if you do redeem your plex in a 'wrong' location.... why move it? Put up a sell order on the spot. People like me who use EvE-central will spot it, buy it and inject it without ever needing to transport anything. Just a friendly piece of advice. Whenever a newbro thinks he's shafted, or about to be: DON'T CLICK ANYTHING, don't agree to anything, don't rush it. Read up on the rules at hand first before proceeding. That plex isn't wandering off on its own unless you give the go-ahead. Additional hint for newbros: a subscription is often cheaper than a license extention. Now, assuming they intend to sell it I also assume they just coughed up some hard cash to acquire one. Which leads me to believe the real-world value of said item is still fresh in their memory and therefore, appropriate caution goes without saying.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 14016	Posted - 2016.07.28 07:09:10 - [381] - Quote This game is so complex and full of quirks that even 2 year old character can be deemed "stupid", some people, bah, even 4 year olds, not hardcore gamers can be deemed "stupid", while they are just inexperienced in all those things about game. Gradually some people can find and learn more about the things this game offers. Deepnes of the gameplay and things there is to learn always strucks, not even now players, but also those who try to do something new in the game, like PvEer who wants to get into PvP. Another thing is people who try and adapt and their efforts still are not recognized, and cant be, because system is constructed in the way it gives advantage to the other gamer, other style of gameplay. If they see it, they are disappointed with mechanics. Balancing such game with high PvP content and PvE content as EVE is, is so hard, that we will see these threads emerge about gankers, wardecs, capitals, sov, structures indefinitely I think. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Geronimo McVain McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc 154	Posted - 2016.07.28 08:29:35 - [382] - Quote I'm with Lucy. New Players are missing information badly. Just some examples: Can you trade from the cargo bay Where do you have an overview what exactly is each module doing Where are you taught how to tank a ship correctly Where are you taught the MWD trick Where are warned about changed mechanics like installing clones or upgrading clones that you still find in the web? A huge disadvantage of relying on the web is that there is a crapton of outdated info out there.
Ncc 1709 Fusion Enterprises Ltd Badfellas Inc. 297	Posted - 2016.07.28 09:07:48 - [383] - Quote used to be able to buy 90 gtc for 290m isk...
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 14016	Posted - 2016.07.28 10:07:22 - [384] - Quote And there are also people, balancing game is one thing, but you cant really balance people, and they come unbalanced. Especially those new ones, newbies. The ones who are taught that game delivers them information about everything, will be surprised there is more than that, and you just scraped the surface, some will be overtaken by threat of overdedication to a game. Clear and thoroughly presented information, when its too much, will not be used in its entirety, some things are practiced and some not, some are forgotten, again this can cause problems with player not wanting to play because he do not grasp something and is offput for example by micromanagement of modules in PvP. Some people learn by their mistakes, refusing to read a wall of texts, trying to explore game using their own intuition, intuition that was shaped by other games. Gathering all of this, even the things I didnt really mentioned but were mentioned earlier in this thread and on forums (its a lot) its no wonder that game appeals to so little people. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 60	Posted - 2016.07.28 10:22:24 - [385] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: And there are also people, balancing game is one thing, but you cant really balance people, and they come unbalanced. Especially those new ones, newbies. The ones who are taught that game delivers them information about everything, will be surprised there is more than that, and you just scraped the surface, some will be overtaken by thread of overdedication to a game. Clear and thoroughly presented information, when its too much, will not be used in its entirety, some things are practiced and some not, some are forgotten, again this can cause problems with player not wanting to play because he do not grasp something and is offput for example by micromanagement of modules in PvP. Some people learn by their mistakes, refusing to read a wall of texts, trying to explore game using their own intuition, intuition that was shaped by other games. Gathering all of this, even the things I didnt really mentioned but were mentioned earlier in this thread and on forums (its a lot) its no wonder that game appeals to so little people. Yes, sometimes it's a mix of difficulty, personal limits and game mechanics that makes everything frustrating. I experienced this some days ago, when I was back trying some FW after a one month stop for irl things. I setup my ship with new t2 modules, very happy to try them in PvP. Look for FW systems, undock, change a couple of systems trying my manual pilot a bit, then I see ships approach and web me...what happens? Some seconds later I am in my pod ( I use very fragile kiting ships...) I simply forgot that FW standing made me chased by opposite factions NPC in some systems, the "warning" is little and I didn't notice it at all, because I was focused on practice some manual piloting again... So new ships destroyed, back to buy new one with tail between legs, killed by npc. Mix of personal distruction, bad memory of one of the many game mechanics and so little warning interface.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26437	Posted - 2016.07.28 10:32:34 - [386] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: I had a Corpmate that was intelligent and asked before reediming a plex he bought. He didn't know how important it is to redeem it in a big hub and in particular in jita ( he didn't actually know what jita is ). He was lucky, others explained him to travel to jita and then redeem and sell the plex without undocking and so on, but I suppose it's not unfrequent to have a enthusiastic new player that buys a plex, redeems it and then he find he's in the wrong place to sell it ( not to say it can happen he tries to transport it to a better place unaware he can be scanned down and stealed from it ). Which is as it should be, CCP made a deliberate design choice that means outside of the absolute basics your main source of information is other players. While I agree that a lack of easily accessible information is a problem when you're new, I don't think that the information should be spoonfed. I do think that CCP could do a better job of encouraging people to find out stuff for themselves using the resources already available; if people can't be bothered to do so after being encouraged then that's their own look out and they deserve to explode repeatedly until they quit. Quote: I would not deem that kind of player a stupid one, or an unattentive one, in particular during the first weeks of gameplay. It's when people fail to learn that they get called stupid, even the most seasoned and bloodthirsty of gankers will happily tell a newbie that undocking with PLEX in the hold is a bloody silly idea. Quote: Some mechanics I found in many other mmos ( what's calling soulbounding for using a general expression ) are not applied here. It's a choice not to apply that mechanics, but because Eve is more an exception than a common game about it, I think it should be clear ( with big game warnings ) that here everything is different. The lack of "soulbinding" is one of the many differences to other games that have made Eve unique over the years, as for the warning something similar was tried in the past during one of the Burn Jita events, it was thoroughly ignored and people blindly flew their stuffed to the brim multi-billion isk loot pinatas into a death trap, then they moaned on the forums about it We're used to dealing with incredible amounts of stupidity from people that fail to understand the concept of an open PvP game with full loot, which is why the forums can be so harsh on folks. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26437	Posted - 2016.07.28 10:37:13 - [387] - Quote Geronimo McVain wrote: Can you trade from the cargo bay Where do you have an overview what exactly is each module doing Where are you taught how to tank a ship correctly Where are you taught the MWD trick These are things you learn from other players, the lack of an instruction manual was a deliberate choice on the part of CCP. Quote: Where are warned about changed mechanics like installing clones or upgrading clones that you still find in the web? You read the patch notes like everybody else Quote: A huge disadvantage of relying on the web is that there is a crapton of outdated info out there. Which is why we tend to point people at the Eve Uni wiki, it's the most up to date resource out there, rumour has it that CCP themselves use it for reference because it gets an awful lot of hits from Reykjavik. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 14017	Posted - 2016.07.28 12:03:47 - [388] - Quote I will go to help channel and teach those people how they should act in this game to avoid all bad things that can happen to them, but I will not call them stupid. I think I will actually help them this way. More than posting here anything. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Judaa K'Marr Power-Hug Training Bootcamp 18	Posted - 2016.07.28 12:30:08 - [389] - Quote Geronimo McVain wrote: I'm with Lucy. New Players are missing information badly. Just some examples: Can you trade from the cargo bay Where do you have an overview what exactly is each module doing Where are you taught how to tank a ship correctly Where are you taught the MWD trick Where are warned about changed mechanics like installing clones or upgrading clones that you still find in the web? A huge disadvantage of relying on the web is that there is a crapton of outdated info out there. But this has always been true. Even has always been complex and confusing. The question is not why people in general don't play eve. It's why people who did play eve in spite of all that suddenly stopped, and why new people who would stick in eve in spite of complexity, or in some cases because of it, don't anymore, at least to the same scale as a few years ago.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26438	Posted - 2016.07.28 12:35:51 - [390] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: I will go to help channel and teach those people how they should act in this game to avoid all bad things that can happen to them, but I will not call them stupid. I think I will actually help them this way. More than posting here anything. People are stupid if they don't learn from experience, it's much like real life in that respect. If you want to help, come join us in NCQA too, it's quite an active place and somewhat self moderating with any form of troll or misinformation being forbidden and quickly reported to the ISD team; the atmosphere is a stark contrast to the other areas of the forum. BTW more posts like the last couple please, you can come across as quite militant which doesn't go over well and gets peoples backs up. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 60	Posted - 2016.07.28 13:13:41 - [391] - Quote Judaa K'Marr wrote: Geronimo McVain wrote: I'm with Lucy. New Players are missing information badly. Just some examples: Can you trade from the cargo bay Where do you have an overview what exactly is each module doing Where are you taught how to tank a ship correctly Where are you taught the MWD trick Where are warned about changed mechanics like installing clones or upgrading clones that you still find in the web? A huge disadvantage of relying on the web is that there is a crapton of outdated info out there. But this has always been true. Even has always been complex and confusing. The question is not why people in general don't play eve. It's why people who did play eve in spite of all that suddenly stopped, and why new people who would stick in eve in spite of complexity, or in some cases because of it, don't anymore, at least to the same scale as a few years ago. I can tell you my personal experience to explain why I think many players suddenly stopped playing eve online. When I was playing WoW and other themepark mmorpgs they had daily quests and some kind of linear advancement. Me, and the other persons playing with me ( I can tell you because we were talking about it often ) felt "compelled" to play if not everyday, every two or three days at least even during summer time or when busy for real life because we were constantly "feeded" with new things to do, new goals to reach, points to accumulate for dailies to obtain gear as a reward and so on. This had a double face, it can lead to exhaustion if you don't like the game or if you decide to obtain all or most of the "prizes" developers put in front of you, or it can lead to a very funny consistent play experience if you like the game much and if you don't exhaggerate ( or if developers don't make too many prizes necessary to have fun with your "corpmates" as a group". Here in Eve it's totally different. The only moment I had this feeling was during the brief time they made that very primitive dailies, but except for that i didn't have this feeling at all. You can stop playing for a month and, if you keep the subscription, when you are back the game situation is very similar to what you found before ( except I suppose if you partecipate to wars and so on, but personally I haven't so much time to dedicate to be into very active corps. And, keeping your subscription, you can also have your skills improving with time passing, even if you don't login and if you don't play and skills are quite important here. If you add the thing that a mature player with a job can usually afford to buy and sell a plex, so he doesn't even feel complained to gain some money ingame, you can imagine why I have a clear feeling there are many many persons that stop playing ( maybe returning later on) suddenly.
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 254	Posted - 2016.07.28 14:07:16 - [392] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: I will go to help channel and teach those people how they should act in this game to avoid all bad things that can happen to them, but I will not call them stupid. I think I will actually help them this way. More than posting here anything. People are stupid if they don't learn from experience, it's much like real life in that respect. If you want to help, come join us in NCQA too, it's quite an active place and somewhat self moderating with any form of troll or misinformation being forbidden and quickly reported to the ISD team; the atmosphere is a stark contrast to the other areas of the forum. BTW more posts like the last couple please, you can come across as quite militant which doesn't go over well and gets peoples backs up. What the hell does health care accreditation have to do with EvE? Is this a stealth 'bring back clone grades' post? Oh...wait. Quality Assurance! That makes much more sense. . . . Seriously though, how would a new player even know to find these sites you mention (one of which I've never heard of, and I've been around a bit)...let alone know them to be reliable? Jonah, this part is NOT directed at you specifically - this is a general spiel. - - Look, I'm right here in the center. I fully believe that any piece of information should be found easily (with the proper amount of effort) in game. On the other hand, I'm fully aware that certain concepts can only come through experience - either your own or others' experiences. I happen to like that EvE has a bit of a steep learning curve, but I do wish more members of EvE the community would step out of their "sociopathic" personas and help out a newbro rather than lecturing to them that the new player must be stupid, because they didn't know this or that esoteric arcane thing -- whatever the thing happens to be. Too many of you are acting like space hipsters. Seriously, vets, help out... you can always step back into "*******" character afterwards. Make a "helping alt" if you don't want your dastardly rep tarnished with rainbows... The bottom line is that EvE is what WE - the current playerbase - make of it. Yes, CCP has mechanical control of their game. That's a given, but the community is what defines playing in EvE. There's a fine balance of acceptance and niche play that needs to be carefully nuanced. EvE will wither and die without new blood, but these new players need to be properly 'blooded' to survive in EvE. I have NO expectations that brand new players have the immediate tools necessary (and in some-cases, the mindset) to fit in the niche that is EvE. So what; train them. Many will go away, and a few will stay. I'd rather see that few increase in number. Risk averseness is generallydeveloped in human adults (there's a reason US insurance rates drop at age 25); however, in EvE it needs to be tempered. Good EvE player's uses a different type of risk evaluation that for the most part will be alien to their daily lives. This is something that needs to be explained to new players, or better yet, the new players need to experience this type of risk evaluation. They don't need to be alone to do this - show them. Most new players aren't coming from WoW... that's a thing of the past that many vets seem to be stuck on. They're coming from WoT type games and MOBAs. These players may already have the risk evaluation skills needed to prosper in EvE. What they lack is people skills. EvE is a game of cooperation - soloing EvE will only get you so far. This is a different type of risk -trust - and it also needs to be taught and tempered. Too much trust will just make you a mark, but not enough trust will make you the old cat-lady of EvE -- except with alts instead of felines. This trust balance also needs to be fostered in new players. It'll be harder to teach, but it can be done. Coaching isn't hand holding. Guiding isn't hand holding. Be the new player's source of experience. They'll pick it up much faster this way. Informed players are players that stay. Apparently I'm writing a book (sorry guys), so I'll close out with this... quit bitchin' and do something. You don't have to be the uber leader. Just a few words of encouragement instead of disdain for the noob, a calm and logical explanation rather than shouts of HTFU, or bringing a novice into the fold can make all the diference in whether a new player stays or goes. Once they've made the commitment to embrace EvE - warts and all - then teach them the meaning of HTFU. --Activist Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26440	Posted - 2016.07.28 15:07:33 - [393] - Quote Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: Seriously though, how would a new player even know to find these sites you mention (one of which I've never heard of, and I've been around a bit)...let alone know them to be reliable? Agreed, this is a problem, one that I feel should in part addressed by CCP, the tutorials is the ideal place to do it, unfortunately the opportunity to do so has been ignored; it doesn't help that opportunities often cause confusion and that the career tutorials are mostly walls of text. Quote: Jonah, this part is NOT directed at you specifically - this is a general spiel. Look, I'm right here in the center. I fully believe that any piece of information should be found easily (with the proper amount of effort) in game. On the other hand, I'm fully aware that certain concepts can only come through experience - either your own or others' experiences. I happen to like that EvE has a bit of a steep learning curve, but I do wish more members of EvE the community would step out of their "sociopathic" personas and help out a newbro rather than lecturing to them that the new player must be stupid, because they didn't know this or that esoteric arcane thing -- whatever the thing happens to be. Too many of you are acting like space hipsters. Seriously, vets, help out... you can always step back into "*****" character afterwards. Make a "helping alt" if you don't want your dastardly rep tarnished with rainbows... The bottom line is that EvE is what WE - the current playerbase - make of it. Yes, CCP has mechanical control of their game. That's a given, but the community is what defines playing in EvE. There's a fine balance of acceptance and niche play that needs to be carefully nuanced. Fair comment, and there's a lot to be said for it, most of the people that cause other players to explode will happily help out somebody with questions, what they won't do is help out somebody who wishes ill on them in real life; sadly the fact of the matter is that the latter happens so often that we have tear collectors, and not in the funny way. Quote: EvE will wither and die without new blood, but these new players need to be properly 'blooded' to survive in EvE. I have NO expectations that brand new players have the immediate tools necessary (and in some-cases, the mindset) to fit in the niche that is EvE. So what; train them. Many will go away, and a few will stay. I'd rather see that few increase in number. Risk averseness is generallydeveloped in human adults (there's a reason US insurance rates drop at age 25); however, in EvE it needs to be tempered. Good EvE player's uses a different type of risk evaluation that for the most part will be alien to their daily lives. This is something that needs to be explained to new players, or better yet, the new players need to experience this type of risk evaluation. They don't need to be alone to do this - show them. Most new players aren't coming from WoW... that's a thing of the past that many vets seem to be stuck on. They're coming from WoT type games and MOBAs. These players may already have the risk evaluation skills needed to prosper in EvE. What they lack is people skills. EvE is a game of cooperation - soloing EvE will only get you so far. This is a different type of risk -trust - and it also needs to be taught and tempered. Too much trust will just make you a mark, but not enough trust will make you the old cat-lady of EvE -- except with alts instead of felines. This trust balance also needs to be fostered in new players. It'll be harder to teach, but it can be done. No argument here. Quote:** Coaching isn't hand holding. Guiding isn't hand holding. Be the new player's source of experience. They'll pick it up much faster this way. Informed players are players that stay. Apparently I'm writing a book (sorry guys), so I'll close out with this... quit bitchin' and do something. You don't have to be the uber leader. Just a few words of encouragement instead of disdain for the noob, a calm and logical explanation rather than shouts of HTFU, or bringing a novice into the fold can make all the diference in whether a new player stays or goes. Once they've made the commitment to embrace EvE - warts and all - then teach them the meaning of HTFU. --Activist Gadget It's a good post, I have but one like to give. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Geronimo McVain McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc 155	Posted - 2016.07.28 16:07:44 - [394] - Quote Judaa K'Marr wrote: But this has always been true. Eve has always been complex and confusing. The question is not why people in general don't play eve. It's why people who did play eve in spite of all that suddenly stopped, and why new people who would stick in eve in spite of complexity, or in some cases because of it, don't anymore, at least to the same scale as a few years ago. The experience that players have is different. Today complex game do their best to break down the complexity. And the complexity in Eve is growing. Where is the difference between a citadel and a starbase? Sure, when you lifted through the change it is logical but for someone who is completely new to the game? I really don't care if the info is in Uni Wiki or evelopedia but there need to be a quick INGAME access. Video tutorials are nice to have but nowhere as complete as written material where you can check something quickly. If Eve would turn to consoles it would help enormously because there you are forced to break down the complexity, not lower it, to manageable levels.
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 493	Posted - 2016.07.28 16:24:26 - [395] - Quote So THIS is what vets mean when their game gets dumbed down. Now I get it Teckos, now I get it. Consoles. For crying out loud. Do you think I have a 27 inch screen because I like consoles?? This ****** is just UmPfHhhh come on guys, the info is there. At least try to put in minimal effort? It's not like "the vets" are utterly unwilling to tell the nooblings everything they know, along with experience you couldn't possibly write down? I'd rather CCP invest time in maintaining / developing / patching the game than in writing lengthy written works which, much like an EULA, nobody would read anyway. IF there were a manual, you'd be all like "oooohhhh but that's on page 183- tl;dr I didn't make it past page 5 until the book ran out of pretty pictures" ~sorry rant~ I love my screen. I love EvE. I'm not that old in-game, I KNOW the newbro experience. It sends exactly the right message: experiment, learn, study, adapt, improve -- then perhaps you end up on top of the food chain. THIS is the message newbros need to get. Who cares about the difference between a starbase, an outpost, an NPC station and a citadel? One day you run into something awkward, you research / google / forumpost / reddit it et voila! Another player got smarter. Tell his corp buddies about it - another 30 players got smarter. Guy makes a youtube video about it; problem solved. This IS a player driven universe. EvE University is a player initiative and I think it's beautiful. It's amazing all this grew from a simple sandbox with basic tools. The freaking manual would be 570 pages long and it still wouldn't cover all aspects, because most of it is designed by players. Newbro doesn't know who PL is? Go ahead, tackle that Mastodon-- you'll soon find out LOL! ~wooops~
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5036	Posted - 2016.07.28 16:56:29 - [396] - Quote Judaa K'Marr wrote: Geronimo McVain wrote: I'm with Lucy. New Players are missing information badly. Just some examples: Can you trade from the cargo bay Where do you have an overview what exactly is each module doing Where are you taught how to tank a ship correctly Where are you taught the MWD trick Where are warned about changed mechanics like installing clones or upgrading clones that you still find in the web? A huge disadvantage of relying on the web is that there is a crapton of outdated info out there. But this has always been true. Eve has always been complex and confusing. The question is not why people in general don't play eve. It's why people who did play eve in spite of all that suddenly stopped, and why new people who would stick in eve in spite of complexity, or in some cases because of it, don't anymore, at least to the same scale as a few years ago. This post right here explains the problem those asking for a kinder/gentler Eve have. All those points have been with us since day one. None of the people asking for a kinder/gentler Eve can explain this. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17105	Posted - 2016.07.28 17:07:01 - [397] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: So THIS is what vets mean chanting one of us one of us one of us Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 329	Posted - 2016.07.28 17:09:07 - [398] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: So THIS is what vets mean chanting one of us one of us one of us Brokk has officially reached bittervet level 1 4 more levels to go
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5036	Posted - 2016.07.28 17:13:42 - [399] - Quote Geronimo McVain wrote: Judaa K'Marr wrote: But this has always been true. Eve has always been complex and confusing. The question is not why people in general don't play eve. It's why people who did play eve in spite of all that suddenly stopped, and why new people who would stick in eve in spite of complexity, or in some cases because of it, don't anymore, at least to the same scale as a few years ago. The experience that players have is different. Today complex game do their best to break down the complexity. And the complexity in Eve is growing. Where is the difference between a citadel and a starbase? Sure, when you lifted through the change it is logical but for someone who is completely new to the game? I really don't care if the info is in Uni Wiki or evelopedia but there need to be a quick INGAME access. Video tutorials are nice to have but nowhere as complete as written material where you can check something quickly. If Eve would turn to consoles it would help enormously because there you are forced to break down the complexity, not lower it, to manageable levels. Eve University is a great place to learn about the game. They have a pretty comprehensive wiki, and are an entity in game that will teach you how things work. They will accept any and all applications regardless of SP. There are also lots of youtube videos on how things work. There are the forums as well. For a game that has a harsh reputation quite a few players can be quite helpful in explaining how certain things work. There is a help channel in game. I have not gone through the new player experience since it has been revamped, but my understanding is CCP revamped that too. Joining a corporation in game can also help you learn about aspects of the game. And lastly we have these amazing things called search engines that use powerful algorithms to find the stuff you are looking for. But no, the information is not spoon fed to you...then again the last time you were spoon fed you also couldn't form a cogent sentence. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Doc Fury Furious Enterprises 8458	Posted - 2016.07.28 17:31:26 - [400] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: So THIS is what vets mean chanting one of us one of us one of us Brokk has officially reached bittervet level 1 Welcome Brokk.. There use to be cookies, you can guess what happened to those. Gÿ+ The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper: 'Hodor'.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 14027	Posted - 2016.07.28 17:33:17 - [401] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Judaa K'Marr wrote: Geronimo McVain wrote: I'm with Lucy. New Players are missing information badly. Just some examples: Can you trade from the cargo bay Where do you have an overview what exactly is each module doing Where are you taught how to tank a ship correctly Where are you taught the MWD trick Where are warned about changed mechanics like installing clones or upgrading clones that you still find in the web? A huge disadvantage of relying on the web is that there is a crapton of outdated info out there. But this has always been true. Eve has always been complex and confusing. The question is not why people in general don't play eve. It's why people who did play eve in spite of all that suddenly stopped, and why new people who would stick in eve in spite of complexity, or in some cases because of it, don't anymore, at least to the same scale as a few years ago. This post right here explains the problem those asking for a kinder/gentler Eve have. All those points have been with us since day one. None of the people asking for a kinder/gentler Eve can explain this. Maybe even people in CCP cant explain this. And even if they could, would it stop bleeding players? There would be actual things to do to prevent this. Spoon feeding Information? Manuals? This used to be magazine about EVE, by CCP. This used to be official EVE wiki. This used to be manual for EVE, made by players, for free. Discontinuations, in game and outside, will not make those players come back or stay longer, especially if EVE playerbase is getting older, greyer, more wrinkled. Actual new things? Y 2016 DEV Blogs: 35, to this day. Gief veteran retirement stations CCP. And gief pleasure hubs back, and Quafe girls. Gief WiS, gief Avatar exploraton, Give black market in stations, gief more space to explore, gief new mining system, gief comet mining, gief landing on planets. The amount of gief lessened..... ...is less than EVEr. Those players left you CCP, because... Oh, and DUST on consoles? PSHHHHH WoD development? Yes, someone could add something to that littany, if he is still around. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Pandora Carrollon Kingsman Tailors 496	Posted - 2016.07.28 17:48:44 - [402] - Quote Let me play Devil's Advocate a moment here... Yes there are resources out there to learn. That's what I had to do to learn. Yes, you can come here and ask for help. That's what I did to learn and had fantastic people do just that. Yes, CCP has tried (and apparently failed) at doing in-game or their own resources. They seem to have given up. We must ask the question though, are we going absolve them of their responsibility to create and maintain a good educational system for new players? I know a lot of you are willing to do just that, I'm not so certain I am. CCP makes a good deal of cash off of EVE. They have great resources and if you count the players among them, they have a dozen very viable ideas that have been tossed out there to them to fix their educational system... including the ability to encompass external game resources that are player created as well as inside the game player participation. I would think it would behoove the CSM to take up the banner on this, sort through the ideas, maybe pick the top 3 and push it into CCP's lap as a mandate from the player base. Who knows, it might actually impact retention, maybe not, but maybe just a little. If anything, you'd ditch the chaff well before the trial period was up. So... I'm advocating for the mentor concept again... call it "Project Mentor". It's easy, the vets can strut their stuff, and newbies will get a real taste of EVE while learning the ropes from the PROs. Be Positive GÇó Change yourself first, New Eden will come later GÇó EVE is Awesome GÇó CCP isn't the enemy GÇó Players are people too GÇó Where're the clothing blueprints GÇó Yeah, I'm still learning this game -- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7854	Posted - 2016.07.29 03:04:54 - [403] - Quote I think there are less players because the world is getting to be a dangerous place and people are waking up and finding video games boring. Seriously: when you see on the news what's going on, who needs Eve Online? The whole RL world is getting way more interesting. And that, BTW, is the natural human condition. Not this playtime. With the crap going on in the world these days, if someone near me starts harping about some MMO nerd drama as if (or in place of) it was a bad relationship with a woman or business deals, my first impulse is to punch him in the brain stem and take his stuff. Nobody is going to care about your stats or how much ISK you have when things go down IRL. (Ok maybe I have played too much Eve but why should stuff be wasted in the possession of the stupid?) Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5039	Posted - 2016.07.29 04:57:50 - [404] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: I think there are less players because the world is getting to be a dangerous place and people are waking up and finding video games boring. Seriously: when you see on the news what's going on, who needs Eve Online? The whole RL world is getting way more interesting. And that, BTW, is the natural human condition. Not this playtime. With the crap going on in the world these days, if someone near me starts harping about some MMO nerd drama as if (or in place of) it was a bad relationship with a woman or business deals, my first impulse is to punch him in the brain stem and take his stuff. Nobody is going to care about your stats or how much ISK you have when things go down IRL. (Ok maybe I have played too much Eve but why should stuff be wasted in the possession of the stupid?) To be quite honest, I stopped watching the news (it just makes you less informed) and play video games more. The real world sucks with real world buttholery from real world buttholes. I know in a video game like Eve people will be jerks, but I expect and even find amusement in it....it is just a game after all. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 17865	Posted - 2016.07.29 05:00:37 - [405] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: I think there are less players because the world is getting to be a dangerous place and people are waking up and finding video games boring. Seriously: when you see on the news what's going on, who needs Eve Online? The whole RL world is getting way more interesting. And that, BTW, is the natural human condition. Not this playtime. With the crap going on in the world these days, if someone near me starts harping about some MMO nerd drama as if (or in place of) it was a bad relationship with a woman or business deals, my first impulse is to punch him in the brain stem and take his stuff. Nobody is going to care about your stats or how much ISK you have when things go down IRL. (Ok maybe I have played too much Eve but why should stuff be wasted in the possession of the stupid?) Eve launched 2 years after 9/11, when the west was involved in 2 active wars. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5039	Posted - 2016.07.29 05:28:39 - [406] - Quote Malcanis wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: I think there are less players because the world is getting to be a dangerous place and people are waking up and finding video games boring. Seriously: when you see on the news what's going on, who needs Eve Online? The whole RL world is getting way more interesting. And that, BTW, is the natural human condition. Not this playtime. With the crap going on in the world these days, if someone near me starts harping about some MMO nerd drama as if (or in place of) it was a bad relationship with a woman or business deals, my first impulse is to punch him in the brain stem and take his stuff. Nobody is going to care about your stats or how much ISK you have when things go down IRL. (Ok maybe I have played too much Eve but why should stuff be wasted in the possession of the stupid?) Eve launched 2 years after 9/11, when the west was involved in 2 active wars. In short, people need an escape for the ****** reality that is RL. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1986	Posted - 2016.07.29 06:02:34 - [407] - Quote Perhaps some people realised that the game was fixed so certain people use the mechanics to win and when they start to lose they get the rules changed so they keep winning. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 675	Posted - 2016.07.29 06:52:08 - [408] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Perhaps some people realised that the game gets fixed so certain people can use the mechanics to win easily and when they start to lose they get the rules changed so they keep winning. Fixed that link for you.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5039	Posted - 2016.07.29 07:07:05 - [409] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Perhaps some people realised that the game gets fixed so certain people can use the mechanics to win easily and when they start to lose they get the rules changed so they keep winning. Yes, that has to be it. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1986	Posted - 2016.07.29 07:19:21 - [410] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Fixed that link for you. Except that what I linked is the reality, and back to calling names like a typical ganker circle jerk. Seeing as you decided to try this tactic lets lay it out so people can see it: The AG players after a certain amount of time started to get some people who were happy to have some characters as criminals, these people started to shoot wrecks, a certain perrson in the CSM whose corp benefits from ganking jumps onto an issue which a lot of people have wanted changed and pushes it at a meeting with CCP. the reasons for that change in terms of wreck EHP is quite understood by a lot of people and is valid. But it is given a push because AG players are now blowing up freighter wrecks. CCP changes the wreck EHP increasing it from 500 EHP to 15,000 EHP for a freighter. The AG were using the same type of ships as the gankers, frigates and destroyers to blow up freighter wrecks, but instead of being the ones to be shot at, in terms of trying to rep the freighter, trying to jam the gankers to enable it to survive, they had the same cheap and chearful level of consequence as the gankers. So in one easy change that strategy and the ability for offensive action on the same basis as the gankers is removed. To give a real life example, we have a Charon on Palas destroyed by a 14 character fleet of Goon gankers, 9 are in SB's 4 are in Catalysts. The AG players now have to have at least 10 Arty Thrashers and likely more to blow up the wreck before they can scoop it, or perhaps a Tornado or two thrashers. Gankers will say up your game, but they could not up their game to stop the frigates or destroyers blowing up the wreck, they had to get the EHP of wrecks changed so it was out side of the reach of the AG players to do this, which is what they have acheived. So afterwards when it was realied what a buff this was CCP increased EHP for freighters due to the DCU change saying it was to balance off against a buff elsewhere for gankers. Except that it was much worse than that it went back to the status quo of the ganked having to sit there and take it and the AG back to trying to save it with limited aggresive actions for them. The balance of this buff / nerf was massively in the favour of gankers and yet the gankers are crying over the buff to the freighter EHP. But the biggest issue is that the AG players are left to just do defensive un fun actions, CCP removed the fun part of it by doing this. So when people see this sort of thing it is no wonder that they think that continuing to play a game where these people have it so easy is not worth it, and the loss of these players is having a cascade affect. There are many reasons for the decline in numbers but the most important one for me is that the people who just wanted a game to chill out with and to develop in while having a challenge was actually seen as just too destructive and loaded against them, they decided that they were not going to be patsies for entitled gankers and people like them so they walked and continue to do so. And now other people finding it more and more difficult to find content are also walking. The AFK cloaky issue is still there, people are getting cloaky camped in Providence like mad with BLOP's dropping all the time, people are not logging in, the game does not reward you for logging in and doing stuff because someone with a lazy attitude can just set up like that and there is nothing you can do. So when the lower level players have a perception that they are just there to feed easy kills and easy ISK to a group of players at the top they decide, nope not for me. There you go and calling me an idiot with stupid links is not going to cut it. But thanks for posting that, because every time you do I will write like this. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 676	Posted - 2016.07.29 07:25:38 - [411] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Fixed that link for you. Except that what I linked is the reality, and back to calling names like a typical ganker circle jerk. It's not the reality. Endie directly confirmed the reality you, following other eivdence linked earlier that was contrary to your opinion. It's just a lie you are telling. As to calling you names. I did not. I just corrected the link. Nothing more.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 46	Posted - 2016.07.29 07:32:00 - [412] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Fixed that link for you. Except that what I linked is the reality, and back to calling names like a typical ganker circle jerk. Seeing as you decided to try this tactic lets lay it out so people can see it: The AG players ......blah blah blah If you want to discuss this so badly then take it to your own forum posts. This is two posts you have derailed with your conspiracy bull **. ** off to your own posts and leave others alone. I would call you plenty of names but they all get filtered out so quit being a self-centered, one topic asshat and take it elsewhere.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 46	Posted - 2016.07.29 07:35:43 - [413] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Fixed that link for you. The AFK cloaky issue is still there, people are getting cloaky camped in Providence like mad with BLOP's dropping all the time, people are not logging in, the game does not reward you for logging in and doing stuff because someone with a lazy attitude can just set up like that and there is nothing you can do. Ok so: AFK cloaky = BAD AFK Mining/Hauling = Needs protection Makes perfect sense...
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1986	Posted - 2016.07.29 07:43:53 - [414] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Fixed that link for you. Except that what I linked is the reality, and back to calling names like a typical ganker circle jerk. It's not the reality. Endie directly confirmed the reality you, following other evidence linked earlier that was contrary to your opinion. It's just a lie you are telling, and it seems that all AG have now is lies. No real action or effect. Just lies to try to make yourself look good. As to calling you names. I did not. I just corrected the link. Nothing more. Ah but we don't get the game changed to suit our gameplay while suggesting it is something else, and he did say that he was also thinking of ganking. Let me just quote the important part for those too lazy to link or who will link to different things... Quote: No, I'm Endie. And I can tell you straight up that gankers were one of those I was aware would be positively affected, yes, but they were not the main point. But while he is not really a ganker, most of his corp kills and income came from ganking... So decisions like this have an impact on player numbers, also lack of consequences for gankers have an impact, AFK cloaky camping which makes people not log in has an impact on numbers. I deal with cloaky camping in features and ideas, there is a thread in there that I have a great proposal to deal with it, my attention is purely on the AFK part. This thread is however about why there is a reduction in player numbers so I am giving my views on why this is happening. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1986	Posted - 2016.07.29 07:47:51 - [415] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Fixed that link for you. The AFK cloaky issue is still there, people are getting cloaky camped in Providence like mad with BLOP's dropping all the time, people are not logging in, the game does not reward you for logging in and doing stuff because someone with a lazy attitude can just set up like that and there is nothing you can do. Ok so: AFK cloaky = BAD AFK Mining/Hauling = Needs protection Makes perfect sense... AFK = bad ATK = good AFK = bad ATK = good Just expected to sit there and be shot at = bad Being able to shoot back with results = good You are bad at this PS As I stated above these issues are very important to the loss of players, it is all about the issue of game balance, so what you call derailing is what I call going into detail to show the issues, next up will be war decs. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Geronimo McVain McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc 156	Posted - 2016.07.29 08:52:28 - [416] - Quote When Eve is loosing players it's about general thing. Some nerd or buff for ganking wouldn't make or break the game. That veterans leave is totally normal the question is if Eve can replace them with new players. So the focus should be on new players and their information. IMHO there CCP made a big mistake with evelopedia but it can be replaced with Uni Wiki. In German there is the Pilotenhandbuch with covers every aspect of Eve even when it's not totally up to date any more. Exactly such a manual CCP should deliver with each Eve copy. Maybe add a chapter especially for noobs. The main problem for noobs is lacking information on game mechanics. In other games that's not really a problem because death or failure has no real consequences but in Eve it may cost you the revenues of a week or more playing. To play around you need the money to cover the losses which is exactly what noobs are missing. The only thing needs some changing are wardeccs on Noobs. New accounts, not the age of toons, should be excluded from wardeccs for 3 month. The 3 Month should start and end with the first account so additional accounts will not have these feature. And there should be some "wardeccs handbook " that gives tips to targets, because noobs often don't think about some options they have.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1988	Posted - 2016.07.29 09:16:09 - [417] - Quote Geronimo McVain wrote: When Eve is loosing players it's about general thing. Some nerd or buff for ganking wouldn't make or break the game. That veterans leave is totally normal the question is if Eve can replace them with new players. So the focus should be on new players and their information. IMHO there CCP made a big mistake with evelopedia but it can be replaced with Uni Wiki. In German there is the Pilotenhandbuch with covers every aspect of Eve even when it's not totally up to date any more. Exactly such a manual CCP should deliver with each Eve copy. Maybe add a chapter especially for noobs. The main problem for noobs is lacking information on game mechanics. In other games that's not really a problem because death or failure has no real consequences but in Eve it may cost you the revenues of a week or more playing. To play around you need the money to cover the losses which is exactly what noobs are missing. The only thing needs some changing are wardeccs on Noobs. New accounts, not the age of toons, should be excluded from wardeccs for 3 month. The 3 Month should start and end with the first account so additional accounts will not have these feature. And there should be some "wardeccs handbook " that gives tips to targets, because noobs often don't think about some options they have. CCP don't do account linking, which is a real shame, I wish they would, it would solve other issues... But the new player is handicapped because he has to run around in much more vulnerable ships, so they get carved up easily by hordes of bored vets with axes to grind, which is what I think CODE is. Perhaps CCP should enable all new players to have and be able to fly a DST from the start and put in a full tank fit with special modules. Perhaps also start them so they can fly a Procurer with a good tank fit and again supply them with that. War decs, it is a difficult one because you are dealing with two extremes, players that want to avoid it at all costs and players who largely want to farm easy kills with no risk. Trying to create a war dec system around those two extremes is just kinda meh and I feel for the CCP Devs in terms of this, but the existing system can be adjusted, I went and looked at it in detail and it is actually a good system which needs a few tweaks. The issue rests mainly with the player base and how it has developed in hisec. The ideal sitaution would see small but active corps being war decced by equally small and active corps that are not going to farm them in GTFO ships or massed neutral RR backed up on high grades in a pimped Proteus to kill a poorly fitted Ferox for example and have something to fight over which has meaningful value. I made a suggestion of giving watch list functionality with an OS on a per constellation basis, which is vulnerable when in operation. For a defender that has real strategic value. Having new players involve din that sort of content could be fun. I have recently seen some bigger hisec corps, which I think happened due to the watch list changes, I was rather happy to see that and gives me some hope, though I was wondering how many of them were Goon alts filling in time and a lack of income on their mains, hu hum... I would reduce the cost of war decs to max 25m on a corp and 100m on an alliance, I would make it so the war dec follows a player if he joins a player corp within 7 days of leaving a war dec corp. On teh other side I think I would try to put a restriction ona corp from having any other war decs for a period of time, but have that for anyone who has actually lost a ship... A limit to the war dec should be there, two weeks, perhaps more. However these limits should be removed once the environment in hisec has become more healthy, if that is ever possible... COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Josef Djugashvilis 3447	Posted - 2016.07.29 10:11:58 - [418] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: I think there are less players because the world is getting to be a dangerous place and people are waking up and finding video games boring. Seriously: when you see on the news what's going on, who needs Eve Online? The whole RL world is getting way more interesting. And that, BTW, is the natural human condition. Not this playtime. With the crap going on in the world these days, if someone near me starts harping about some MMO nerd drama as if (or in place of) it was a bad relationship with a woman or business deals, my first impulse is to punch him in the brain stem and take his stuff. Nobody is going to care about your stats or how much ISK you have when things go down IRL. (Ok maybe I have played too much Eve but why should stuff be wasted in the possession of the stupid?) Sometimes my real life, as I am sure is the case for most folks, does not go as well as I would wish. These are the times when I use Netflix, books and computer games to escape the stress real life causes. This is not a signature.
Judaa K'Marr Power-Hug Training Bootcamp 20	Posted - 2016.07.29 11:03:31 - [419] - Quote Star Wars and Star Trek are both popular again. Two tired old space formats that now got a second wind. Answer is clear - CCP need to hire JJ Abrams.
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 61	Posted - 2016.07.29 11:13:13 - [420] - Quote Geronimo McVain wrote: When Eve is loosing players it's about general thing. Some nerd or buff for ganking wouldn't make or break the game. That veterans leave is totally normal the question is if Eve can replace them with new players. So the focus should be on new players and their information. IMHO there CCP made a big mistake with evelopedia but it can be replaced with Uni Wiki. In German there is the Pilotenhandbuch with covers every aspect of Eve even when it's not totally up to date any more. Exactly such a manual CCP should deliver with each Eve copy. Maybe add a chapter especially for noobs. The main problem for noobs is lacking information on game mechanics. In other games that's not really a problem because death or failure has no real consequences but in Eve it may cost you the revenues of a week or more playing. To play around you need the money to cover the losses which is exactly what noobs are missing. The only thing needs some changing are wardeccs on Noobs. New accounts, not the age of toons, should be excluded from wardeccs for 3 month. The 3 Month should start and end with the first account so additional accounts will not have these feature. And there should be some "wardeccs handbook " that gives tips to targets, because noobs often don't think about some options they have. I agree with most of what you say, the only difference is that I think wardecs /ganks are damagine the medium term players more than the total newbies. It's true that a total noob that lose a ship needs time to recover and buy a new one, but they are usually ships that other corpmates can buy for hime easily ( t1 frigates, ventures, t1 exploration ships and so on). The problem comes in my opinion on medium term players ( let's say 3 month to 1 year? ). They didn't grasp the protection mechanics, the on-grid mechanics, the cloaking tricks, the covert ops opportunities, the difference of danger between hubs and so on so they put their stuff ( that's bigger and harder to replace) to dangerous, because wardeccers / gankers can scan them down and explode their ship easily. There is also the huge "stay docked one week" problem that's not secondary at all, in particular for players that began to pay for a subscription. The bad thing is that newere player using trials or similar come and go all time, it's normal, while the damage to the game base from losing players that are becoming solid is much bigger.
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 262	Posted - 2016.07.29 12:38:37 - [421] - Quote Judaa K'Marr wrote: Star Wars and Star Trek are both popular again. Two tired old space formats that now got a second wind. Answer is clear - CCP need to hire JJ Abrams. Less Abrams and more Straczynski, please. --Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14356	Posted - 2016.07.29 14:19:19 - [422] - Quote Malcanis wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: I think there are less players because the world is getting to be a dangerous place and people are waking up and finding video games boring. Seriously: when you see on the news what's going on, who needs Eve Online? The whole RL world is getting way more interesting. And that, BTW, is the natural human condition. Not this playtime. With the crap going on in the world these days, if someone near me starts harping about some MMO nerd drama as if (or in place of) it was a bad relationship with a woman or business deals, my first impulse is to punch him in the brain stem and take his stuff. Nobody is going to care about your stats or how much ISK you have when things go down IRL. (Ok maybe I have played too much Eve but why should stuff be wasted in the possession of the stupid?) Eve launched 2 years after 9/11, when the west was involved in 2 active wars. Exactly. People may be outgrowing MMOs, and there may be a general perception that the world is getting worse, but that perception is false. We simply live in a time of 24/7 news and instant reporting (everyone has a camera phone) that makes things seem way worse. The fact that western society is aging is also part of it, the older we get the worse things seem.
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 262	Posted - 2016.07.29 14:25:55 - [423] - Quote /shrug EvE is a pastime, politics is my sport, knowledge of world events is instrumental to my career. The world has been in worse messes. It's just now better able to react to them. Oh... at least here, it's political season, so up the emotion x10. --Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
Sexy Cakes Have A Seat 1098	Posted - 2016.07.29 14:28:27 - [424] - Quote The fact remains that there is not any new **** to do in a long time. The fun old stuff to do got nerfed or changed or whatever you want to call it so that it was accessible to more people but nothing was put in to replace it. I guess you could make a case for burner missions but those seem so stupid I never even tried them. Give us something to do in game already. You've balanced ships for long enough. We've waited patiently for like 2 years while this road map plays itself out. Time for some actual activities. Incursions, wormholes, stuff like that. Get on it. Not today spaghetti.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14356	Posted - 2016.07.29 14:36:06 - [425] - Quote Sexy Cakes wrote: The fact remains that there is not any new **** to do in a long time. The fun old stuff to do got nerfed or changed or whatever you want to call it so that it was accessible to more people but nothing was put in to replace it. I guess you could make a case for burner missions but those seem so stupid I never even tried them. Give us something to do in game already. You've balanced ships for long enough. We've waited patiently for like 2 years while this road map plays itself out. Time for some actual activities. Incursions, wormholes, stuff like that. Get on it. Found your problem and highlighted it, how can you ask for more stuff if you haven't even used the stuff they gave 1st?. EVE is best for people who know how to refresh content on their own, and treat new CCP made content as a 'bonus'. For example I spent some of last week trying new 'regen' type fits in lvl 5 missions. Lost an Ishtar and a maelstrom before finding the right balance. With all due respect to CCP, They are fairly horrible at 'content' (go try some Drifter Incursions...or wait you can't), but superb and making new tools for us to make our own content (Command Dessie alts turn out to be awesome helpers for high end ded complexes and lvl 5 missions). Many of you lot would be way happier if you learned to experiment.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17728	Posted - 2016.07.29 14:37:54 - [426] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Malcanis wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: I think there are less players because the world is getting to be a dangerous place and people are waking up and finding video games boring. Seriously: when you see on the news what's going on, who needs Eve Online? The whole RL world is getting way more interesting. And that, BTW, is the natural human condition. Not this playtime. With the crap going on in the world these days, if someone near me starts harping about some MMO nerd drama as if (or in place of) it was a bad relationship with a woman or business deals, my first impulse is to punch him in the brain stem and take his stuff. Nobody is going to care about your stats or how much ISK you have when things go down IRL. (Ok maybe I have played too much Eve but why should stuff be wasted in the possession of the stupid?) Eve launched 2 years after 9/11, when the west was involved in 2 active wars. Exactly. People may be outgrowing MMOs, and there may be a general perception that the world is getting worse, but that perception is false. We simply live in a time of 24/7 news and instant reporting (everyone has a camera phone) that makes things seem way worse. The fact that western society is aging is also part of it, the older we get the worse things seem. Hard to argue this year isn't exceptionally ****.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1991	Posted - 2016.07.29 14:46:27 - [427] - Quote So trying to get the thread locked by real world stuff, typical ganker circle jerk forum warrior stuff, you should both should get forum bans for this as you do it so often, but not as blatantly as this. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14356	Posted - 2016.07.29 14:50:26 - [428] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Malcanis wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: I think there are less players because the world is getting to be a dangerous place and people are waking up and finding video games boring. Seriously: when you see on the news what's going on, who needs Eve Online? The whole RL world is getting way more interesting. And that, BTW, is the natural human condition. Not this playtime. With the crap going on in the world these days, if someone near me starts harping about some MMO nerd drama as if (or in place of) it was a bad relationship with a woman or business deals, my first impulse is to punch him in the brain stem and take his stuff. Nobody is going to care about your stats or how much ISK you have when things go down IRL. (Ok maybe I have played too much Eve but why should stuff be wasted in the possession of the stupid?) Eve launched 2 years after 9/11, when the west was involved in 2 active wars. Exactly. People may be outgrowing MMOs, and there may be a general perception that the world is getting worse, but that perception is false. We simply live in a time of 24/7 news and instant reporting (everyone has a camera phone) that makes things seem way worse. The fact that western society is aging is also part of it, the older we get the worse things seem. Hard to argue this year isn't exceptionally **. It only seems that way (if you live in the West) Quote: The majority of the global deterioration is due to the developments in the Middle East and Africa (MENA), already the least peaceful region in the world. So intense is the current concentration of violence and conflict in MENA that, when considered separately, the rest of the worldGÇÖs average peace levels improved.** Three of the five biggest country declines in peace occurred in the region: Yemen, Libya and Bahrain. I know people 'feel' differently, simply pointing out that for most of us there is no real basis for it, surely not enough to affect video game numbers.
Sexy Cakes Have A Seat 1098	Posted - 2016.07.29 17:03:57 - [429] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Sexy Cakes wrote: The fact remains that there is not any new **** to do in a long time. The fun old stuff to do got nerfed or changed or whatever you want to call it so that it was accessible to more people but nothing was put in to replace it. I guess you could make a case for burner missions but those seem so stupid I never even tried them. Give us something to do in game already. You've balanced ships for long enough. We've waited patiently for like 2 years while this road map plays itself out. Time for some actual activities. Incursions, wormholes, stuff like that. Get on it. Found your problem and highlighted it, how can you ask for more stuff if you haven't even used the stuff they gave 1st?. EVE is best for people who know how to refresh content on their own, and treat new CCP made content as a 'bonus'. For example I spent some of last week trying new 'regen' type fits in lvl 5 missions. Lost an Ishtar and a maelstrom before finding the right balance. With all due respect to CCP, They are fairly horrible at 'content' (go try some Drifter Incursions...or wait you can't), but superb and making new tools for us to make our own content (Command Dessie alts turn out to be awesome helpers for high end ded complexes and lvl 5 missions). Many of you lot would be way happier if you learned to experiment. 1 NPC behind a gate. 1. I swore about 4 years ago I wasn't ever going to get into a discussion with you again as my face breaks out from all the face palming you make me do. Not today spaghetti.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14357	Posted - 2016.07.29 17:17:16 - [430] - Quote Sexy Cakes wrote: 1 NPC behind a gate. 1. I swore about 4 years ago I wasn't ever going to get into a discussion with you again as my face breaks out from all the face palming you make me do. It's not just one npc, it's up to 4 in Bases. And those NPcs are actually interesting, enough to spawn 2 year long discussions like this. People are STILL experimenting in burner missions. Yet in your ignorance you can't even be bothered to try them before complaining that there is 'nothing new to do'. That demonstrates that the problem here is you and your self limiting behavior, not that there is 'nothing to do in the game'. Feel free to face palm when you realize you blamed the game and CCP for your own personal issues.
xxxTRUSTxxx Galactic Rangers EVEolution. 454	Posted - 2016.07.29 17:23:58 - [431] - Quote there are many reasons why numbers go up and down, some people here are on the right track while others just seem to make it up as they go. only ccp have full access to all of the data needed to start pointing at what may be causing issues, if there are any but here's a crazy thought. when is the last time you seen any adverts for EVEonline outside of your browser ? so who exactly are we attracting to play the game? it seems to me that finding EVE is all about the right person at the right time and place convincing a mate online to give it a go. or a chance mention to a friend in real life about this game we play called EVE, i nearly always get this,,, EVE,,,,, wha's that? while with gaming mates online i always get hmmm, yea heard of it,, might give it a go,, heard it's really hard to learn. I'm not sure it's as big a problem as some would like to make it out to be, blaming everything from ganking to war decs to null mechanics, to any feckin game change that happens, then along ye all come with your answers to a issue you do not have the full data on. spec u feckin lation,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, noting much more. gamers come gamers go, this is the way of it. anyone online playing any game long enough will tell you this. the natural progression and life of a community, sometimes it's epic beyond belief, other times it's not so epic. why do numbers go down? no one ever asks why do they go up. negative fecks.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14358	Posted - 2016.07.29 17:36:45 - [432] - Quote Good news though, it seems like every other game is dying too. Elite is dying https://www.google.com/search?q=elite+dangeorus+is+dying&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=elite+dangerous+is+dying STO is dying too https://www.google.com/search?q=star+trek+online+is+dying&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 Oh crap, SWTOR too! https://www.google.com/search?q=star+trek+online+is+dying&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 I could go on lol. TL;DR "my game is dying....but it's not dying" anxiety is by no means an EVE exclusive phenomenon.
Murena D'Morrigane Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2016.07.29 17:46:08 - [433] - Quote Nuffin to see here people, move along now. Dont worry, be happy Everything is awesome, REALLY!
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 51	Posted - 2016.07.29 18:09:53 - [434] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: CCP don't do account linking, which is a real shame, I wish they would, it would solve other issues... But the new player is handicapped because he has to run around in much more vulnerable ships, so they get carved up easily by hordes of bored vets with axes to grind, which is what I think CODE is. Perhaps CCP should enable all new players to have and be able to fly a DST from the start and put in a full tank fit with special modules. Perhaps also start them so they can fly a Procurer with a good tank fit and again supply them with that. Are you seriously suggesting that brand new character should be given a DST and Procurer? And provided the skills to fly it? You do realize all of the prerequisite skills would then be given as well including: Industry Level V [Racial] Industrial Level V Plus whatever skills required for your suggested "special modules" for the fit. And not to mention who will supply will these free ships? Because I'm sure the industrialist are pleased you just suggested that you destroy two entire market segments for them. Why not just let everybody fly a damn titan the day they sign up? Golden ammo and diamond armor for everyone! What the actual **** are you on about?
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5040	Posted - 2016.07.29 19:29:37 - [435] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: CCP don't do account linking, which is a real shame, I wish they would, it would solve other issues... But the new player is handicapped because he has to run around in much more vulnerable ships, so they get carved up easily by hordes of bored vets with axes to grind, which is what I think CODE is. Perhaps CCP should enable all new players to have and be able to fly a DST from the start and put in a full tank fit with special modules. Perhaps also start them so they can fly a Procurer with a good tank fit and again supply them with that. War decs, it is a difficult one because you are dealing with two extremes, players that want to avoid it at all costs and players who largely want to farm easy kills with no risk. Trying to create a war dec system around those two extremes is just kinda meh and I feel for the CCP Devs in terms of this, but the existing system can be adjusted, I went and looked at it in detail and it is actually a good system which needs a few tweaks. The issue rests mainly with the player base and how it has developed in hisec. The ideal sitaution would see small but active corps being war decced by equally small and active corps that are not going to farm them in GTFO ships or massed neutral RR backed up on high grades in a pimped Proteus to kill a poorly fitted Ferox for example and have something to fight over which has meaningful value. I made a suggestion of giving watch list functionality with an OS on a per constellation basis, which is vulnerable when in operation. For a defender that has real strategic value. Having new players involved in that sort of content could be fun. I have recently seen some bigger hisec corps, which I think happened due to the watch list changes, I was rather happy to see that and gives me some hope, though I was wondering how many of them were Goon alts filling in time and a lack of income on their mains, hu hum... I would reduce the cost of war decs to max 25m on a corp and 100m on an alliance, I would make it so the war dec follows a player if he joins a player corp within 7 days of leaving a war dec corp. On the other side I think I would try to put a restriction ona corp from having any other war decs for a period of time, but have that for anyone who has actually lost a ship... A limit to the war dec should be there, two weeks, perhaps more. However these limits should be removed once the environment in hisec has become more healthy, if that is ever possible... Nice story, however, CCP's analysis of new players getting ganked indicate quite the contrary. "New" players were ganked at a rate of about 1%. As for starting out new players with a full fitted DST...yes, CCP needs to engage in more player hand holding. The notion of ganking is a huge problem is a claim where people like Dracvlad do literally nothing in terms of providing empirical data. I did look at the number of retrievers ganked on July 26 via zkill and it was a whopping 33. And that is likely an over estimate in that there maybe some war dec kills in there. Now, if July 26 is typical, ganking retrievers is not a huge thing, IMO. BTW, I also looked at skiffs for the same day, and there were two kills in HS, and those looked very much like war dec kills (I doubt people gank in cynabals). The problem with war decs is the underlying incentive problem. One side does NOT want to PvP...at all. The other side does. There is no way a structure will address this problem and leave both sides feeling better off. In fact, I doubt there is a solution via mechanics because the problem is NOT mechanics, but incentives. Further, it is unlikely the issue of large war dec alliances is not going to be solved by rolling back the changes that created them. These people have gotten used to working together, they have become friends and as such, if these changes that lead to the creation of these alliances are rolled back that those alliances will disband. There might be some corps that leave, but my guess is the big alliances are here to stay. And anchoring a structure (what is it with these people and structures?) if it is vulnerable all the time, then that will again push towards big alliances to get complete TZ coverage. If you give them a vulnerability window (like most structures in game) they'll do pretty much nothing. As nobody is going to undock to shoot such structures in the vulnerability window as it will draw the war dec corp right down on top of them. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5040	Posted - 2016.07.29 19:30:55 - [436] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: CCP don't do account linking, which is a real shame, I wish they would, it would solve other issues... But the new player is handicapped because he has to run around in much more vulnerable ships, so they get carved up easily by hordes of bored vets with axes to grind, which is what I think CODE is. Perhaps CCP should enable all new players to have and be able to fly a DST from the start and put in a full tank fit with special modules. Perhaps also start them so they can fly a Procurer with a good tank fit and again supply them with that. Are you seriously suggesting that brand new character should be given a DST and Procurer? And provided the skills to fly it? You do realize all of the prerequisite skills would then be given as well including: Industry Level V [Racial] Industrial Level V Plus whatever skills required for your suggested "special modules" for the fit. And not to mention who will supply these free ships? Because I'm sure the industrialist are pleased you just suggested that you destroy two entire market segments for them. Why not just let everybody fly a damn titan the day they sign up? Golden ammo and diamond armor for everyone! What the actual **** are you on about? There is that. Start an account, get the freebies, sell them, transfer the ISK, biomass. Yeah, no problem there. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1993	Posted - 2016.07.29 19:45:58 - [437] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: CCP don't do account linking, which is a real shame, I wish they would, it would solve other issues... But the new player is handicapped because he has to run around in much more vulnerable ships, so they get carved up easily by hordes of bored vets with axes to grind, which is what I think CODE is. Perhaps CCP should enable all new players to have and be able to fly a DST from the start and put in a full tank fit with special modules. Perhaps also start them so they can fly a Procurer with a good tank fit and again supply them with that. Are you seriously suggesting that brand new character should be given a DST and Procurer? And provided the skills to fly it? You do realize all of the prerequisite skills would then be given as well including: Industry Level V [Racial] Industrial Level V Plus whatever skills required for your suggested "special modules" for the fit. And not to mention who will supply these free ships? Because I'm sure the industrialist are pleased you just suggested that you destroy two entire market segments for them. Why not just let everybody fly a damn titan the day they sign up? Golden ammo and diamond armor for everyone! What the actual **** are you on about? There is that. Start an account, get the freebies, sell them, transfer the ISK, biomass. Yeah, no problem there. Sounds like a normal ganker behavoiur COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1993	Posted - 2016.07.29 19:46:44 - [438] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: CCP don't do account linking, which is a real shame, I wish they would, it would solve other issues... But the new player is handicapped because he has to run around in much more vulnerable ships, so they get carved up easily by hordes of bored vets with axes to grind, which is what I think CODE is. Perhaps CCP should enable all new players to have and be able to fly a DST from the start and put in a full tank fit with special modules. Perhaps also start them so they can fly a Procurer with a good tank fit and again supply them with that. Are you seriously suggesting that brand new character should be given a DST and Procurer? And provided the skills to fly it? You do realize all of the prerequisite skills would then be given as well including: Industry Level V [Racial] Industrial Level V Plus whatever skills required for your suggested "special modules" for the fit. And not to mention who will supply these free ships? Because I'm sure the industrialist are pleased you just suggested that you destroy two entire market segments for them. Why not just let everybody fly a damn titan the day they sign up? Golden ammo and diamond armor for everyone! What the actual **** are you on about? Market is dying anyway. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Cerius Lennar Vibe Squad 2	Posted - 2016.07.29 19:52:00 - [439] - Quote Rainey Dhey wrote: The problems I see with Eve is that its very top heavy. It took me several years of coming and going before I finally even understood what Eve was and was about. Since then, I've seen a lot of things happen. From a new players perspective, I can easily see someone diving into EVE, learning a few things, joining a corp only for the corp to get wardecced as part of the blanket deccing many of the big corps do, then losing a ship, being told to dock up and not play for a week by their CEO and saing "** this game". Or maybe you are in PVP corp, but you get decced by a big merc corp, again, blanket deccing everyone and then being told by your CEO to dock up for a week because you cant compete with this big merc corp. "** this game". You'll say "Hire another corp and fight them, or band together and fight them off." umm, all of the big merc corps are allied to eachother because they are all too sissified to actually take on anyone that will challenge them as its easier to blop smaller corps and act powerful and big. It's top heavy. CCP is always trying to push people into low/null sec when a lot of players simply dont want o go there. They wont change the blanket deccing going on which would give more newb friendly corps a chance to thrive and ultimately is committing a slow and painful suicide over time. Its seems CCP is more about fueling the loss of ships to keep the economy in check at the expense of losing players to frustration or lack of play. This is exactly the problem. We are experiencing this right now, and it's amazing to me how less important new players are to this game.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5040	Posted - 2016.07.29 19:55:16 - [440] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: CCP don't do account linking, which is a real shame, I wish they would, it would solve other issues... But the new player is handicapped because he has to run around in much more vulnerable ships, so they get carved up easily by hordes of bored vets with axes to grind, which is what I think CODE is. Perhaps CCP should enable all new players to have and be able to fly a DST from the start and put in a full tank fit with special modules. Perhaps also start them so they can fly a Procurer with a good tank fit and again supply them with that. Are you seriously suggesting that brand new character should be given a DST and Procurer? And provided the skills to fly it? You do realize all of the prerequisite skills would then be given as well including: Industry Level V [Racial] Industrial Level V Plus whatever skills required for your suggested "special modules" for the fit. And not to mention who will supply these free ships? Because I'm sure the industrialist are pleased you just suggested that you destroy two entire market segments for them. Why not just let everybody fly a damn titan the day they sign up? Golden ammo and diamond armor for everyone! What the actual **** are you on about? There is that. Start an account, get the freebies, sell them, transfer the ISK, biomass. Yeah, no problem there. Sounds like a normal ganker behavoiur No, typical Eve behavior. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1993	Posted - 2016.07.29 20:01:55 - [441] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Sounds like a normal ganker behavoiur No, typical Eve behavior. Well actually the way it is going, it is the normal behavoiur, people who do that routinely like gankers rolling alts, people who get the mechanics changed to benefit their gameplay because they are too fail in game to so what they assuce their enemies of. So the gankers cannot defend their wrecks and get the EHP increased so they don't have to defend them, yeah typical Eve behaviour and typical CCP naivity and incompetence. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5040	Posted - 2016.07.29 20:02:38 - [442] - Quote Cerius Lennar wrote: Rainey Dhey wrote: The problems I see with Eve is that its very top heavy. It took me several years of coming and going before I finally even understood what Eve was and was about. Since then, I've seen a lot of things happen. From a new players perspective, I can easily see someone diving into EVE, learning a few things, joining a corp only for the corp to get wardecced as part of the blanket deccing many of the big corps do, then losing a ship, being told to dock up and not play for a week by their CEO and saing "** this game". Or maybe you are in PVP corp, but you get decced by a big merc corp, again, blanket deccing everyone and then being told by your CEO to dock up for a week because you cant compete with this big merc corp. "** this game". You'll say "Hire another corp and fight them, or band together and fight them off." umm, all of the big merc corps are allied to eachother because they are all too sissified to actually take on anyone that will challenge them as its easier to blop smaller corps and act powerful and big. It's top heavy. CCP is always trying to push people into low/null sec when a lot of players simply dont want o go there. They wont change the blanket deccing going on which would give more newb friendly corps a chance to thrive and ultimately is committing a slow and painful suicide over time. Its seems CCP is more about fueling the loss of ships to keep the economy in check at the expense of losing players to frustration or lack of play. This is exactly the problem. We are experiencing this right now, and it's amazing to me how less important new players are to this game. These problems are the results of changes CCP has made. CCP increased the costs of war decs...which contributed to bigger war dec corporations/alliances. CCP removed the watchlist which made target war decs considerably more difficult which lead to an increase in blanket war decs. Ironically, there is still a solution: stay out of trade hubs and off the pipes between trade hubs. Find an out of the way system and do your stuff there. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5040	Posted - 2016.07.29 20:06:37 - [443] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Sounds like a normal ganker behavoiur No, typical Eve behavior. Well actually the way it is going, it is the normal behavoiur, people who do that routinely like gankers rolling alts, people who get the mechanics changed to benefit their gameplay because they are too fail in game to so what they assuce their enemies of. So the gankers cannot defend their wrecks and get the EHP increased so they don't have to defend them, yeah typical Eve behaviour and typical CCP naivity and incompetence. Eve has always been about finding and edge and then taking advantage of it. For example insurance fraud. And even if players did not resell and biomass these freebies, these freebies would gut the market for DSTs and procurors. Demand would take a huge hit and prices would collapse. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1993	Posted - 2016.07.29 20:08:52 - [444] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Sounds like a normal ganker behavoiur No, typical Eve behavior. Well actually the way it is going, it is the normal behavoiur, people who do that routinely like gankers rolling alts, people who get the mechanics changed to benefit their gameplay because they are too fail in game to so what they assuce their enemies of. So the gankers cannot defend their wrecks and get the EHP increased so they don't have to defend them, yeah typical Eve behaviour and typical CCP naivity and incompetence. Eve has always been about finding and edge and then taking advantage of it. For example insurance fraud. And even if players did not resell and biomass these freebies, these freebies would gut the market for DSTs and procurors. Demand would take a huge hit and prices would collapse. Eve is about meta gaming and making it easy for yourself with meta gaming, that is what the gankers did and what CCP allowed them to do. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Cerius Lennar Vibe Squad 3	Posted - 2016.07.29 20:11:00 - [445] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Cerius Lennar wrote: Rainey Dhey wrote: The problems I see with Eve is that its very top heavy. It took me several years of coming and going before I finally even understood what Eve was and was about. Since then, I've seen a lot of things happen. From a new players perspective, I can easily see someone diving into EVE, learning a few things, joining a corp only for the corp to get wardecced as part of the blanket deccing many of the big corps do, then losing a ship, being told to dock up and not play for a week by their CEO and saing "** this game". Or maybe you are in PVP corp, but you get decced by a big merc corp, again, blanket deccing everyone and then being told by your CEO to dock up for a week because you cant compete with this big merc corp. "** this game". You'll say "Hire another corp and fight them, or band together and fight them off." umm, all of the big merc corps are allied to eachother because they are all too sissified to actually take on anyone that will challenge them as its easier to blop smaller corps and act powerful and big. It's top heavy. CCP is always trying to push people into low/null sec when a lot of players simply dont want o go there. They wont change the blanket deccing going on which would give more newb friendly corps a chance to thrive and ultimately is committing a slow and painful suicide over time. Its seems CCP is more about fueling the loss of ships to keep the economy in check at the expense of losing players to frustration or lack of play. This is exactly the problem. We are experiencing this right now, and it's amazing to me how less important new players are to this game. These problems are the results of changes CCP has made. CCP increased the costs of war decs...which contributed to bigger war dec corporations/alliances. CCP removed the watchlist which made target war decs considerably more difficult which lead to an increase in blanket war decs. Ironically, there is still a solution: stay out of trade hubs and off the pipes between trade hubs. Find an out of the way system and do your stuff there. Why not stiffer penalties to security status at trade hubs? Doesn't make sense in a story fashion that a trade system would allow such a threat to its existence. Feels like a lot of what CCP does is to bank on their players and the massive divide in skills between new and long standing players. Seems to me they are no longer interested in making the game enjoyable for new corps or new players. If they don't have our best interests at hand, then the numbers will continue to decline, simple.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 343	Posted - 2016.07.29 20:17:27 - [446] - Quote Cerius Lennar wrote: Why not stiffer penalties to security status at trade hubs? Doesn't make sense in a story fashion that a trade system would allow such a threat to its existence. Feels like a lot of what CCP does is to bank on their players and the massive divide in skills between new and long standing players. Seems to me they are no longer interested in making the game enjoyable for new corps or new players. If they don't have our best interests at hand, then the numbers will continue to decline, simple. TBH CCP has never much cared for the centralized trade hubs - they are very hard on the game servers. So good luck with that one.... If anything they are more likely to lower security there to push people to spread out =P
Cerius Lennar Vibe Squad 3	Posted - 2016.07.29 20:22:55 - [447] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Cerius Lennar wrote: Why not stiffer penalties to security status at trade hubs? Doesn't make sense in a story fashion that a trade system would allow such a threat to its existence. Feels like a lot of what CCP does is to bank on their players and the massive divide in skills between new and long standing players. Seems to me they are no longer interested in making the game enjoyable for new corps or new players. If they don't have our best interests at hand, then the numbers will continue to decline, simple. TBH CCP has never much cared for the centralized trade hubs - they are very hard on the game servers. So good luck with that one.... If anything they are more likely to lower security there to push people to spread out =P Spread out would be nicer yes, but logically how we function as a society in real life, it wouldn't reorganize that way. Another trade hub would just emerge, with the same problems.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 343	Posted - 2016.07.29 20:24:14 - [448] - Quote Cerius Lennar wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Cerius Lennar wrote: Why not stiffer penalties to security status at trade hubs? Doesn't make sense in a story fashion that a trade system would allow such a threat to its existence. Feels like a lot of what CCP does is to bank on their players and the massive divide in skills between new and long standing players. Seems to me they are no longer interested in making the game enjoyable for new corps or new players. If they don't have our best interests at hand, then the numbers will continue to decline, simple. TBH CCP has never much cared for the centralized trade hubs - they are very hard on the game servers. So good luck with that one.... If anything they are more likely to lower security there to push people to spread out =P Spread out would be nicer yes, but logically how we function as a society in real life, it wouldn't reorganize that way. Another trade hub would just emerge, with the same problems. Agreed, which is why they don't do that. But my point is the trade hubs are purely a player invention, quietly disliked by CCP. Not a CCP invention that the game lore requires them to protect with higher security.
Paranoid Loyd 9321	Posted - 2016.07.29 20:29:20 - [449] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: a player invention Nah, it's just human nature. Fix the Prospect! New Server Hardware!
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5042	Posted - 2016.07.29 20:30:42 - [450] - Quote Cerius Lennar wrote: Why not stiffer penalties to security status at trade hubs? Doesn't make sense in a story fashion that a trade system would allow such a threat to its existence. Feels like a lot of what CCP does is to bank on their players and the massive divide in skills between new and long standing players. Seems to me they are no longer interested in making the game enjoyable for new corps or new players. If they don't have our best interests at hand, then the numbers will continue to decline, simple. War decs are a mechanic to allow for legal fighting in HS. Always has been, and hopefully always will be. So that is why they are allowed in trade hubs. Basically it is like a bribe to CONCORD so that they won't respond when one person in a war shoots one or more of the people that have declared war on. As for the SP divide between new and old players that has always been here. The nature of this game though is that you have to find your own solutions to the problems you encounter in the game. Yes, a 100 million SP character is likely going to have an advantage over you based on SP. However, that same 100 million SP character will have a serious problem with 3-4 5-6 million SP characters. Working with others is one of your best ways around these problems. Having at least 1 buddy in game allows you to have a scout...and same for him. Which can be a significant advantage in certain circumstances. Learning the mechanics of the game is another thing you should be working on. Even the PvP mechanics that way, even if you do not want to PvP you'll understand how it works will make it easier for you to deal with people in PvP situations. You have to find ways to deal with obstacles in the game...obstacles that come from other players. That is the way Eve has always been and hopefully always will be. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Cerius Lennar Vibe Squad 3	Posted - 2016.07.29 20:33:31 - [451] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Cerius Lennar wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Cerius Lennar wrote: Why not stiffer penalties to security status at trade hubs? Doesn't make sense in a story fashion that a trade system would allow such a threat to its existence. Feels like a lot of what CCP does is to bank on their players and the massive divide in skills between new and long standing players. Seems to me they are no longer interested in making the game enjoyable for new corps or new players. If they don't have our best interests at hand, then the numbers will continue to decline, simple. TBH CCP has never much cared for the centralized trade hubs - they are very hard on the game servers. So good luck with that one.... If anything they are more likely to lower security there to push people to spread out =P Spread out would be nicer yes, but logically how we function as a society in real life, it wouldn't reorganize that way. Another trade hub would just emerge, with the same problems. Agreed, which is why they don't do that. But my point is the trade hubs are purely a player invention, quietly disliked by CCP. Not a CCP invention that the game lore requires them to protect with higher security. Ok, then trade hubs aside, higher penalties for .8 and above systems. From a new player standpoint, which we are discussing, this is a problem just in general, which just so happens to exist in trade hubs as well. If it's supposed to be Hi-Sec, it's not so high. Currently, if you are the ganker, you have massive advantage, with little penalty. Why is it not an act of aggression to scan someones ship in hi-sec? Something to give new people a chance, where we have nothing at the moment, absolutely nothing.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5044	Posted - 2016.07.29 20:36:28 - [452] - Quote Cerius Lennar wrote: Ok, then trade hubs aside, higher penalties for .8 and above systems. From a new player standpoint, which we are discussing, this is a problem just in general, which just so happens to exist in trade hubs as well. If it's supposed to be Hi-Sec, it's not so high. Currently, if you are the ganker, you have massive advantage, with little penalty. Why is it not an act of aggression to scan someones ship in hi-sec? Something to give new people a chance, where we have nothing at the moment, absolutely nothing. It is not up to CCP to deal with these kinds of problems in game. It is up to you. Go to the home page for the game. It says, BUILD YOUR DREAMS WRECK THEIR DREAMS Asking CCP to make it harder to do the second one is contrary to what this game is about. As for scanning...it does not harm your ship nor prevent it from functioning normally. Why should that be an act of aggression? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Caco De'mon New Order Logistics CODE. 10	Posted - 2016.07.29 20:38:25 - [453] - Quote Cerius Lennar wrote: Ok, then trade hubs aside, higher penalties for .8 and above systems. From a new player standpoint, which we are discussing, this is a problem just in general, which just so happens to exist in trade hubs as well. If it's supposed to be Hi-Sec, it's not so high. Currently, if you are the ganker, you have massive advantage, with little penalty. Why is it not an act of aggression to scan someones ship in hi-sec? Something to give new people a chance, where we have nothing at the moment, absolutely nothing. I have zero problem with 0.8 and up being hardcore HiSec for new players...just as long as CCP removes the ability to live and farm PLEX via mining there... You CANNOT have it both ways. *"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."
Cerius Lennar Vibe Squad 3	Posted - 2016.07.29 20:38:31 - [454] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Cerius Lennar wrote: Why not stiffer penalties to security status at trade hubs? Doesn't make sense in a story fashion that a trade system would allow such a threat to its existence. Feels like a lot of what CCP does is to bank on their players and the massive divide in skills between new and long standing players. Seems to me they are no longer interested in making the game enjoyable for new corps or new players. If they don't have our best interests at hand, then the numbers will continue to decline, simple. War decs are a mechanic to allow for legal fighting in HS. Always has been, and hopefully always will be. So that is why they are allowed in trade hubs. Basically it is like a bribe to CONCORD so that they won't respond when one person in a war shoots one or more of the people that have declared war on. As for the SP divide between new and old players that has always been here. The nature of this game though is that you have to find your own solutions to the problems you encounter in the game. Yes, a 100 million SP character is likely going to have an advantage over you based on SP. However, that same 100 million SP character will have a serious problem with 3-4 5-6 million SP characters. Working with others is one of your best ways around these problems. Having at least 1 buddy in game allows you to have a scout...and same for him. Which can be a significant advantage in certain circumstances. Learning the mechanics of the game is another thing you should be working on. Even the PvP mechanics that way, even if you do not want to PvP you'll understand how it works will make it easier for you to deal with people in PvP situations. You have to find ways to deal with obstacles in the game...obstacles that come from other players. That is the way Eve has always been and hopefully always will be. They are a little more than obstacles. Please share with me a solution to our corp being power blocked by Marmite and Archetype to the point where members don't even want to play the game anymore. We have been dec'd constantly and it will be allowed to continue until CCP loses more players. Please, I would love to know a solution.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1995	Posted - 2016.07.29 20:39:18 - [455] - Quote Actually its funny, I sat down and analysed various things, this wreck EHP debacle, CCP Falcon's amazing real life consequences post and then his frenzied locking of posts afterwards. The complete mess in terms of mechanics that actually totally benefit the gankers. The result that there is a load of fail players at the top who use the mechanics to slaughter and scam and destroy new players. I wanted Eve to succeed in spite of all this, and hoped that they could turn it around, but I cannot see it. CCP got so many things right with this game but they failed because of stupidity and arrogance, the first one was buffing destroyer DPS and then leaving mining ships with the tank of a wet paper bag. All that did was lose a mass of hisec players, when I realised this I started going on the forums to say what the hell are you doing, but they just ploughed on oblivious because at that time they were attracting new players and for some reason they did not analyse what was happening. Then it hit them very late in the day, or too late in the day to be honest and they suddenly adjusted the mining ships. But the damage was done. The war dec system has turned into blanket war deck approach to get people enough targets who fly through pipes and visit hubs, it is as boring as hell. People get a war dec they log out for a week, they drop crop or they roll corps, its just so naff. In 0.0 we have people with BLOP's leaving AFK cloaky campers in systems 24/24 7/7, people get dropped then decide to stop logging in. The impact of this was massively increased by SP injectors that enabled the campers to create clean full skill toons and of course with no watch list you can no longer control risk with the hot droppers. It seems that Eve is moving from one ill thought out idea to the next which deepen these problems and yet the decisions are directed by a group of players who do such things like the wreck EHP to directly benefit themselves. In affect there is a reduction in players because CCP have screwed up, they lost track of getting the balance right, they allowed the people at the top of the game to over fish the new and lower level players with unbalanced mechanics and this is the sorry state that the game is in now. Add to this the simple fact it is an old game and that new games are coming along who seem to have a better attitude to dealing with meta gaming and rubbish like that and Eve is seen to be out of sync.. Those players who want to create something like an new corp or alliance will find the risk of getting a corp thief or spy in so high that they run the risk of losing everything by theft or by intel that results in the loss of their most expensive assets. Many people say what is the point, there is no way to control accounts, CCP just accept again that newer people are there to be robbed or blasted by veterans with multiple accounts and spy alts to burn. The problem is total complacency, naivety and incompetence. And yet there is so much right with this game. Major issues that need to be sorted: Actual consequences for ganking in hisec, not the laughable ones we have now Sorting out the rules on loot scooping so that people cannot avoid consequences Stop being naive when taking advice from veteran players with vested interests in their own gameplay Work on the war dec system so that both sides are not alienated Remove AFK gameplay that froces people to not login, or do something about the ease of dropping people like a delay on cyno's Link accounts, just do it. Eve is in a terrible state, that is my opinion. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5044	Posted - 2016.07.29 20:46:59 - [456] - Quote Cerius Lennar wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Cerius Lennar wrote: Why not stiffer penalties to security status at trade hubs? Doesn't make sense in a story fashion that a trade system would allow such a threat to its existence. Feels like a lot of what CCP does is to bank on their players and the massive divide in skills between new and long standing players. Seems to me they are no longer interested in making the game enjoyable for new corps or new players. If they don't have our best interests at hand, then the numbers will continue to decline, simple. War decs are a mechanic to allow for legal fighting in HS. Always has been, and hopefully always will be. So that is why they are allowed in trade hubs. Basically it is like a bribe to CONCORD so that they won't respond when one person in a war shoots one or more of the people that have declared war on. As for the SP divide between new and old players that has always been here. The nature of this game though is that you have to find your own solutions to the problems you encounter in the game. Yes, a 100 million SP character is likely going to have an advantage over you based on SP. However, that same 100 million SP character will have a serious problem with 3-4 5-6 million SP characters. Working with others is one of your best ways around these problems. Having at least 1 buddy in game allows you to have a scout...and same for him. Which can be a significant advantage in certain circumstances. Learning the mechanics of the game is another thing you should be working on. Even the PvP mechanics that way, even if you do not want to PvP you'll understand how it works will make it easier for you to deal with people in PvP situations. You have to find ways to deal with obstacles in the game...obstacles that come from other players. That is the way Eve has always been and hopefully always will be. They are a little more than obstacles. Please share with me a solution to our corp being power blocked by Marmite and Archetype to the point where members don't even want to play the game anymore. We have been dec'd constantly and it will be allowed to continue until CCP loses more players. Please, I would love to know a solution. Move. No really. Move to where they are not. They are not going to hunt you down because...well now it is a PITA. How many war decs does Marmite have right now? 150? How many people in those corps and alliances? Let us say on average 20 people (BTW, my entire alliance has been decced by Marmite). That means they'd have to try and find 3,000 characters. And since they cannot use the watchlist anymore to find out when you are online, that means they'd have to run locator agents on all 3,000 pilots. Then go and try to find out if they are online. So Marmite will likely be in a trade hub or roaming the pipes between trade hubs. Go to systems other than those and you can avoid them. If you need to buy stuff, consider an alt on your account. Keep that alt in his noob corp and park him in your preferred trade hub. Set the guys war deccing you to terrible standings so you can see them in local (good luck though if you pick Jita). This way you can see if the war targets are there (and with Marmite they probably are). You can also use your alt to buy stuff and have it shipped to what ever HS system you are in via Red Frog Freight. Your alt can then contract it to your main. Edit: To be quite clear, war decs have already been nerfed. Now you need to adapt to survive. Moving is probably your best bet. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 54	Posted - 2016.07.29 20:51:32 - [457] - Quote Cerius Lennar wrote: They are a little more than obstacles. Please share with me a solution to our corp being power blocked by Marmite and Archetype to the point where members don't even want to play the game anymore. We have been dec'd constantly and it will be allowed to continue until CCP loses more players. Please, I would love to know a solution. From your corp description (which shows 50 members by the way): "Change the face of EvE. We are a group of players that enjoys all aspects of EvE; PvE and PvP. We run ops for Mining, Missions, Exploration/Wormholes, Small-Gang Roams, and plans for a move to null once our ranks are properly filled. -TS3 -Ore Buy Back -Ship Replacement Program -Training in all areas -Group Ops" How about making Marmite or Arcehetype the subject of your "Small-Gang Roams" or "Group Ops". I also see by the war report that you have lost zero (0) ships to any of your wars. <--- That should say current wars (my mistake). I see that you have lost ships in finished wars and even killed some of theirs - good show on that! It seems to me that some percentage of your 50 members could jump in some small cheap ships and make their life a bit miserable so perhaps they might find it a losing proposition.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1995	Posted - 2016.07.29 20:55:20 - [458] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Cerius Lennar wrote: They are a little more than obstacles. Please share with me a solution to our corp being power blocked by Marmite and Archetype to the point where members don't even want to play the game anymore. We have been dec'd constantly and it will be allowed to continue until CCP loses more players. Please, I would love to know a solution. From your corp description (which shows 50 members by the way): "Change the face of EvE. We are a group of players that enjoys all aspects of EvE; PvE and PvP. We run ops for Mining, Missions, Exploration/Wormholes, Small-Gang Roams, and plans for a move to null once our ranks are properly filled. -TS3 -Ore Buy Back -Ship Replacement Program -Training in all areas -Group Ops" How about making Marmite or Arcehetype the subject of your "Small-Gang Roams" or "Group Ops". I also see by the war report that you have lost zero (0) ships to any of your wars. It seems to me that some percentage of your 50 members could jump in some small cheap ships and make their life a bit miserable so perhaps they might find it a losing proposition. But he might also go and look at your killboard and your spiffing history with war decs and think WTF!!! COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5044	Posted - 2016.07.29 20:55:48 - [459] - Quote Caco De'mon wrote: Cerius Lennar wrote: Ok, then trade hubs aside, higher penalties for .8 and above systems. From a new player standpoint, which we are discussing, this is a problem just in general, which just so happens to exist in trade hubs as well. If it's supposed to be Hi-Sec, it's not so high. Currently, if you are the ganker, you have massive advantage, with little penalty. Why is it not an act of aggression to scan someones ship in hi-sec? Something to give new people a chance, where we have nothing at the moment, absolutely nothing. I have zero problem with 0.8 and up being hardcore HiSec for new players...just as long as CCP removes the ability to live and farm PLEX via mining there... You CANNOT have it both ways. Oh it would likley be that way without CCP doing anything. People would move to those systems and they'd be over-farmed in short order leaving everyone crying about how unfair it all is....even though CCP is giving them what they asked for. Again the problem is people just think in terms of one variable at a time. "CCP make war decs more expensive!!!" The thought process is almost surely: more expensive war decs will mean less war decs. Well...okay IF YOU HOLD ALL OTHER FACTORS CONSTANT. But in reality, those other factors are not constant. There is nothing to prevent a war dec corp from responding along another dimension....such as banding together and finding income sources not open to them as small independent corps/alliances and keeping right on deccing left right and center. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1995	Posted - 2016.07.29 20:57:53 - [460] - Quote Amazingly enough I agree with Teckos on something the more expensive war dec fees made wars more pointless and less interesting. The best wars were small new groups having a go at each other, that content has just dried up to a sad degree. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 55	Posted - 2016.07.29 20:59:29 - [461] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Cerius Lennar wrote: They are a little more than obstacles. Please share with me a solution to our corp being power blocked by Marmite and Archetype to the point where members don't even want to play the game anymore. We have been dec'd constantly and it will be allowed to continue until CCP loses more players. Please, I would love to know a solution. From your corp description (which shows 50 members by the way): "Change the face of EvE. We are a group of players that enjoys all aspects of EvE; PvE and PvP. We run ops for Mining, Missions, Exploration/Wormholes, Small-Gang Roams, and plans for a move to null once our ranks are properly filled. -TS3 -Ore Buy Back -Ship Replacement Program -Training in all areas -Group Ops" How about making Marmite or Arcehetype the subject of your "Small-Gang Roams" or "Group Ops". I also see by the war report that you have lost zero (0) ships to any of your wars. It seems to me that some percentage of your 50 members could jump in some small cheap ships and make their life a bit miserable so perhaps they might find it a losing proposition. But he might also go and look at your killboard and your spiffing history with war decs and think WTF!!! I don't have any war decs on this account (something I sure will now change ). I have plenty of experience with war decs on my other accounts - even recently with Marmite. Even if I did not have direct experience with war decs, the posts just in this thread alone would provide me with much information needed to adapt to them. edit: Also I do not make any claims to my PvP prowess in my corp description then complain when it happens to me.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1995	Posted - 2016.07.29 21:05:18 - [462] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: I don't have any war decs on this account (something I sure will now change ). I have plenty of experience with war decs on my other accounts - even recently with Marmite. Even if I did not have direct experience with war decs, the posts just in this thread alone would provide me with much information needed to adapt to them. I see a loss of a Brutix to Marmite on this character. I am looking for people who give the advice that you just did and have actually done this and defeated Marmite, Archetype., Vendetta, Break A Wish. So far people talk about it but I never see it, ok maybe a one off ship kill but I would love to see the fleet fights where you actually killed something and did not die in a fire. And by the way hisec merc groups, 0.0, lowsec and WH alliances and corps do not count. So open question if any hisec entity has had a full on fleet fight and won send me a mail, I would love to be proved wrong. NB. CODE does not count as they are Goons. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 56	Posted - 2016.07.29 21:18:34 - [463] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: I don't have any war decs on this account (something I sure will now change ). I have plenty of experience with war decs on my other accounts - even recently with Marmite. Even if I did not have direct experience with war decs, the posts just in this thread alone would provide me with much information needed to adapt to them. I see a loss of a Brutix to Marmite on this character. I am looking for people who give the advice that you just did and have actually done this and defeated Marmite, Archetype., Vendetta, Break A Wish. So far people talk about it but I never see it, ok maybe a one off ship kill but I would love to see the fleet fights where you actually killed something and did not die in a fire. And by the way 0.0, lowsec and WH alliances and corps do not count. I have not looked at that killboard in years (I was surprised to see me on that Wyvern kill but I think that was the original Sansha event), but let me see if I can recall all of the details from an encounter from February of 2014. If I recall that was on station in Frarn because either I or they were suspect. It was close then a neutral RR came in to save the day. If I recall they were actually a bit late and I almost had him. Nonetheless, it was a good fight and I am not sure how this is relevant. I do not have a large fleet on which to call to fight; therefore, I use other tactics. This does not mean that I am not aware of and experienced with fleet tactics. Also, and maybe most importantly, I do not mind dying in a fire. It is part of the game.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5044	Posted - 2016.07.29 21:20:17 - [464] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: I don't have any war decs on this account (something I sure will now change ). I have plenty of experience with war decs on my other accounts - even recently with Marmite. Even if I did not have direct experience with war decs, the posts just in this thread alone would provide me with much information needed to adapt to them. I see a loss of a Brutix to Marmite on this character. I am looking for people who give the advice that you just did and have actually done this and defeated Marmite, Archetype., Vendetta, Break A Wish. So far people talk about it but I never see it, ok maybe a one off ship kill but I would love to see the fleet fights where you actually killed something and did not die in a fire. And by the way hisec merc groups, 0.0, lowsec and WH alliances and corps do not count. So open question if any hisec entity has had a full on fleet fight and won send me a mail, I would love to be proved wrong. NB. CODE does not count as they are Goons. Well he was pointing out that: 1. This 50 man corp supposedly does do PvP and roams. 2. Why not go engage Marmite then? Seems like a valid question given their corp description. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5044	Posted - 2016.07.29 21:21:46 - [465] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Also, and maybe most importantly, I do not mind dying in a fire. It is part of the game. Probably the best advice. Get used to losing ships. It will happen. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Giovanni erkelens2 rock shot industries Phoenix Company Alliance 36	Posted - 2016.07.29 21:23:21 - [466] - Quote Because some people got ganked, either a pointless miner gank by a CODE plant or a multibillion Indy gank. Because some people did really dumb ****. Because some people got tired of being camped and killed by Large HS wardec Corps. Because some people got AWOXED (if thats still a thing in 2016, correct me if im wrong) Because some people got tired of being hotdropped by a Large coalition in null. Because some people Have RL Stuff going on. Because for some people this game is too punishing. There is probally a shitton of other reasons, but i think ive summed up the main ones.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 56	Posted - 2016.07.29 21:26:42 - [467] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: I don't have any war decs on this account (something I sure will now change ). I have plenty of experience with war decs on my other accounts - even recently with Marmite. Even if I did not have direct experience with war decs, the posts just in this thread alone would provide me with much information needed to adapt to them. I see a loss of a Brutix to Marmite on this character. I am looking for people who give the advice that you just did and have actually done this and defeated Marmite, Archetype., Vendetta, Break A Wish. So far people talk about it but I never see it, ok maybe a one off ship kill but I would love to see the fleet fights where you actually killed something and did not die in a fire. And by the way hisec merc groups, 0.0, lowsec and WH alliances and corps do not count. So open question if any hisec entity has had a full on fleet fight and won send me a mail, I would love to be proved wrong. NB. CODE does not count as they are Goons. Maybe because it is not that big of a deal. These blanket war decs are so easy to avoid that unless you just want the PvP provided then there is no reason to go out of your way to engage. A "friend" of mine got a war dec because he left a trade hub recently filled with some goodies. He got scanned and war dec showed up next day. Unbeknownst to the deccers this was not his normal trade hub, so week of war with no encounters - war over. This friend certainly could have engaged a fleet but the distance and possible gains were not worth the effort. Just like it was not worth the effort of the deccers to hunt him down. In my opinion and based on my experience, a blanket war dec is not a game impacting event. Now if you've pissed someone off and they are after you that is a different story.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5045	Posted - 2016.07.29 21:35:41 - [468] - Quote Giovanni erkelens2 wrote: Because some people got ganked, either a pointless miner gank by a CODE plant or a multibillion Indy gank. Because some people did really dumb ****. Because some people got tired of being camped and killed by Large HS wardec Corps. Because some people got AWOXED (if thats still a thing in 2016, correct me if im wrong) Because some people got tired of being hotdropped by a Large coalition in null. Because some people Have RL Stuff going on. Because for some people this game is too punishing. There is probally a shitton of other reasons, but i think ive summed up the main ones. Yeah because these things only started happening in 2014. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Giovanni erkelens2 rock shot industries Phoenix Company Alliance 37	Posted - 2016.07.29 21:45:48 - [469] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Giovanni erkelens2 wrote: Because some people got ganked, either a pointless miner gank by a CODE plant or a multibillion Indy gank. Because some people did really dumb ****. Because some people got tired of being camped and killed by Large HS wardec Corps. Because some people got AWOXED (if thats still a thing in 2016, correct me if im wrong) Because some people got tired of being hotdropped by a Large coalition in null. Because some people Have RL Stuff going on. Because for some people this game is too punishing. There is probally a shitton of other reasons, but i think ive summed up the main ones. Yeah because these things only started happening in 2014. Was i implying that ?
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17126	Posted - 2016.07.29 21:55:11 - [470] - Quote were you not? Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5045	Posted - 2016.07.29 21:58:32 - [471] - Quote Giovanni erkelens2 wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Giovanni erkelens2 wrote: Because some people got ganked, either a pointless miner gank by a CODE plant or a multibillion Indy gank. Because some people did really dumb ****. Because some people got tired of being camped and killed by Large HS wardec Corps. Because some people got AWOXED (if thats still a thing in 2016, correct me if im wrong) Because some people got tired of being hotdropped by a Large coalition in null. Because some people Have RL Stuff going on. Because for some people this game is too punishing. There is probally a shitton of other reasons, but i think ive summed up the main ones. Yeah because these things only started happening in 2014. Was i implying that ? Seems like it too me. Most of those things have pretty much always been in game. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Cerius Lennar Vibe Squad 5	Posted - 2016.07.29 22:08:04 - [472] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Giovanni erkelens2 wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Giovanni erkelens2 wrote: Because some people got ganked, either a pointless miner gank by a CODE plant or a multibillion Indy gank. Because some people did really dumb ****. Because some people got tired of being camped and killed by Large HS wardec Corps. Because some people got AWOXED (if thats still a thing in 2016, correct me if im wrong) Because some people got tired of being hotdropped by a Large coalition in null. Because some people Have RL Stuff going on. Because for some people this game is too punishing. There is probally a shitton of other reasons, but i think ive summed up the main ones. Yeah because these things only started happening in 2014. Was i implying that ? Seems like it too me. Most of those things have pretty much always been in game. Whether that existed or not has never been contested in this thread. Of course they have always existed to some degree. What is relevant is the order of magnitude some of what you mentioned has become. What is relevant is the severity.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5045	Posted - 2016.07.29 22:14:02 - [473] - Quote Cerius Lennar wrote: Whether that existed or not has never been contested in this thread. Of course they have always existed to some degree. What is relevant is the order of magnitude some of what you mentioned has become. What is relevant is the severity. Good point, and the data say what? Oh, and when you answer, please make your data publicly available. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Valkin Mordirc 2232	Posted - 2016.07.29 22:26:30 - [474] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: I don't have any war decs on this account (something I sure will now change ). I have plenty of experience with war decs on my other accounts - even recently with Marmite. Even if I did not have direct experience with war decs, the posts just in this thread alone would provide me with much information needed to adapt to them. I see a loss of a Brutix to Marmite on this character. I am looking for people who give the advice that you just did and have actually done this and defeated Marmite, Archetype., Vendetta, Break A Wish. So far people talk about it but I never see it, ok maybe a one off ship kill but I would love to see the fleet fights where you actually killed something and did not die in a fire. And by the way hisec merc groups, 0.0, lowsec and WH alliances and corps do not count. So open question if any hisec entity has had a full on fleet fight and won send me a mail, I would love to be proved wrong. NB. CODE does not count as they are Goons. https://zkillboard.com/character/92466311/ https://zkillboard.com/corporation/1300350841/ https://zkillboard.com/character/768915824/ https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99004882/ These three entities are complete and utter headaches to deal with. If you want to beat a mercenary in highsec, basically just look at what Jennifer does. You don't need to have a fleet fight to win. .... I feel as if I've had this argument with you before. `#DeleteTheWeak`
Pandora Carrollon Kingsman Tailors 502	Posted - 2016.07.29 23:27:00 - [475] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: War decs are a mechanic to allow for legal fighting in HS. Always has been, and hopefully always will be. So that is why they are allowed in trade hubs. Basically it is like a bribe to CONCORD so that they won't respond when one person in a war shoots one or more of the people that have declared war on. I used to think this too but there are some issues with considering CONCORD on this. It's not actually a bribe because the mechanics do involve both corps and you can still do things to pull CONCORD into the dispute. If it were a bribe, they'd basically overlook YOUR activities entirely (no matter whom you attacked). The current operation is closer to a contract between CONCORD and one or two corps with a fee charged. If you want the real Role Play skinny it's probably part of the huge Corporation forming contract you sign when you make a corp that you agree to these "War Declaration" contracts. Does the mechanic need to exist in HiSec... no, but a form of it should always exist as long as HiSec does. The current form is in serious need of updating and made more realistic as well as relative to the corps in question. Many suggestions have been made to update it, but I stand with those asking for a holistic approach to the entire organism of HiSec, even down to 'is it necessary' being one of the first questions. I think the update/fix process should take at least a year with massive feedback cycles from the community and get the CSM wondering which way is up having them so engaged. BTW, this isn't about ship to ship PvP in HiSec, ships are just attrition resources. Corps have a lot of other resources that are NOT engaged by a War Dec and that is where I think the true failure of War Declarations are. There either need to be classes of War Dec that engage certain resources or have only Total War be allowed. I also think that you should be able to buy your way out of a War Dec. The logic is, if someone can just pay ISK to take you to war, you should just be able to pay ISK to annul the war. This would force both sides almost into a bidding war on how much they are willing to invest in ISK to take on another corp. The War Dec amount should also be variable by the size of the corp declaring war against the size of corp being declared on. A Trillion ISK Corp/Alliance declaring war on a 200 Million ISK corp should cost the big guys upwards of a billion+ to take on the little fish and only a small amount from the small corp to cancel it... other wise it's open season on the small corps... which is what we've seen, but that's an extreme example. If it's closer to equal, make it pretty cheap and let the bidding drive the cost up. Be Positive GÇó Change yourself first, New Eden will come later GÇó EVE is Awesome GÇó CCP isn't the enemy GÇó Players are people too GÇó Where're the clothing blueprints GÇó Yeah, I'm still learning this game -- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
Raven Ship Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2016.07.30 01:16:35 - [476] - Quote I look at this case, with my 20years experience of online games, and analytic approach to it. That said there are few things needed to be address first: 1. Culture of gameplay new players face with, with two mayor nations having biggest negative impact on this field, one are Russians with there no respect to anyone and overgrow-ed ego based on there propaganda, another are USA fellas who in majority find trolling funny, while it is just them being irritating fools, but those new players can't recognize that, and it generates sick environment for them. 2.Way how game is design, GUI part, it is really badly designed, things are not intuitive and new players have everything droped at them at once, being overwhelmed by it, they give up, default GUI need serious optimization, so that important things are visible there, and non important at current stage of game, are hidden inside neocom. 3.Way how game is design, content wise, new players are lost at first when faced with how much content there is, but what is biggest drawback is that because of no storyline approach and no levels, they have no idea what to do at first, majority of advice they get are also crappy as older players lack knowledge about what to advice them self, on other hand with how much there is, directing newer players to what they might be interested in next, involves huge amounts of dedicated time, as how complexes eve content is. 4.Starting locations... they are just bad designed, new players don't know that they are not to be messed with in there, and that it is actually there safe haven, also those new players don't actually have much to do in there. Summarizing above points, most effective solution to them would be give new players safe haven't constellation or constellations to learn in and get basics, something like jove space, without gates to outside world, separated from outside world, and policed by customers support for any unhealthy attitude players. Then there are things badly designed, those drive new-medium experienced players away, and those are: 1.Exploiting, yes as many have wrong knowledge about what it is, exploiting is using game mechanics in unintended (opposite to designed) way to gain personal advantage, and under this term most of suicides foll, as what they do, it while having security status at level to concord shoot them at sight, they use fact that there is delay with concord spawn in space, so while they by design shouldn't be able to do anything in hsec with bad security status, those have there ways around it. 2.Autopilot at 15km and other damn time consuming activities, like how long ti takes for system change animations, docking, undocking, there are two group of players, those young ones who started with WoW, those might have time for such things, but don't have will nor interest in not "User Friendly" game, what they got used to in WoW, and there are adults, who in majority got other things to do with there time than to stare at screen in there evening after work, here thing not named should be also that online gaming is rather entertain of poor people who work hard most of time and work a lot, so they have even less time to stare at those animations and not needed delays. But that is what that newly hired guy presented on annual gathering should define, target (people) for your product, and all implications about it. 3.No real counter to permanent cloak in nullsec. 4.Ties of gamemasters and custom support to game itself, not going to get in details about it, but if one know what to look at, there is really much of abuses and unhealthy situations about it, just as example, camp nullsec alliance expected to have gm's in it, and get ban's on all your camping alts. 5.And for above point, and how Eula is writed, unlawful by the way, but for that involve too high costs for single customer to deal with in court. And afterwards hits CCP takes back in retaliation, making not related people being unable to play in there free evening's or weekends. Those five above point, well can't really summarize as reflections about them are only CCP part, and actions following it. PS. I'm unwilling to discuss those points further or argue with people mentioned above.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 57	Posted - 2016.07.30 01:26:12 - [477] - Quote Raven Ship wrote: I look at this case, with my 20years experience of online games, and analytic approach to it. That said there are few things needed to be address first: 1. Culture of gameplay new players face with, with two mayor nations having biggest negative impact on this field, one are Russians with there no respect to anyone and overgrow-ed ego based on there propaganda, another are USA fellas who in majority find trolling funny, while it is just them being irritating fools, but those new players can't recognize that, and it generates sick environment for them. PS. I'm unwilling to discuss those points further or argue with people mentioned above. Please explain to us how your "analytic approach" fits with your assertions in point 1 that I bolded. And I will be completely honest, I quit reading after this. Except for that last line...that just means probably what you said (that I didn't read) is merely your opinion. edit: Just to be fair, I will now read the rest of your post. I am quite sure it will be just as enlightening as point 1.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5045	Posted - 2016.07.30 04:37:15 - [478] - Quote Pandora Carrollon wrote: BTW, this isn't about ship to ship PvP in HiSec, ships are just attrition resources. Corps have a lot of other resources that are NOT engaged by a War Dec and that is where I think the true failure of War Declarations are. There either need to be classes of War Dec that engage certain resources or have only Total War be allowed. I also think that you should be able to buy your way out of a War Dec. The problem with war decs is one of incentives. One group does not want PvP. The other does. How do you propose to get both groups to engage in PvP and feel at least no worse or even better off? I submit that this problem is quite possibly intractable. And buying your way out of dec won't work either. Those buying their way out will be here complaining bitterly about it. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 62	Posted - 2016.07.30 06:05:44 - [479] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Pandora Carrollon wrote: BTW, this isn't about ship to ship PvP in HiSec, ships are just attrition resources. Corps have a lot of other resources that are NOT engaged by a War Dec and that is where I think the true failure of War Declarations are. There either need to be classes of War Dec that engage certain resources or have only Total War be allowed. I also think that you should be able to buy your way out of a War Dec. The problem with war decs is one of incentives. One group does not want PvP. The other does. How do you propose to get both groups to engage in PvP and feel at least no worse or even better off? I submit that this problem is quite possibly intractable. And buying your way out of dec won't work either. Those buying their way out will be here complaining bitterly about it. For what I'm seeing even with my hisec character now, wardecs ( like they are now ) are the worst idea CCP had ( or on the contrary the best way to annoy many players ) They are funny only for wardeccers. Period.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5045	Posted - 2016.07.30 06:08:17 - [480] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Pandora Carrollon wrote: BTW, this isn't about ship to ship PvP in HiSec, ships are just attrition resources. Corps have a lot of other resources that are NOT engaged by a War Dec and that is where I think the true failure of War Declarations are. There either need to be classes of War Dec that engage certain resources or have only Total War be allowed. I also think that you should be able to buy your way out of a War Dec. The problem with war decs is one of incentives. One group does not want PvP. The other does. How do you propose to get both groups to engage in PvP and feel at least no worse or even better off? I submit that this problem is quite possibly intractable. And buying your way out of dec won't work either. Those buying their way out will be here complaining bitterly about it. For what I'm seeing even with my hisec character now, wardecs ( like they are now ) are the worst idea CCP had ( or on the contrary the best way to annoy many players ) They are funny only for wardeccers. Period. Thank you for making my point. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1996	Posted - 2016.07.30 07:37:26 - [481] - Quote Valkin Mordirc wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: I don't have any war decs on this account (something I sure will now change ). I have plenty of experience with war decs on my other accounts - even recently with Marmite. Even if I did not have direct experience with war decs, the posts just in this thread alone would provide me with much information needed to adapt to them. I see a loss of a Brutix to Marmite on this character. I am looking for people who give the advice that you just did and have actually done this and defeated Marmite, Archetype., Vendetta, Break A Wish. So far people talk about it but I never see it, ok maybe a one off ship kill but I would love to see the fleet fights where you actually killed something and did not die in a fire. And by the way hisec merc groups, 0.0, lowsec and WH alliances and corps do not count. So open question if any hisec entity has had a full on fleet fight and won send me a mail, I would love to be proved wrong. NB. CODE does not count as they are Goons. https://zkillboard.com/character/92466311/ https://zkillboard.com/corporation/1300350841/ https://zkillboard.com/character/768915824/ https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99004882/ These three entities are complete and utter headaches to deal with. If you want to beat a mercenary in highsec, basically just look at what Jennifer does. You don't need to have a fleet fight to win. .... I feel as if I've had this argument with you before. Yes you have, but Jennifer is someone rather special in Eve I have spoken with him a few times, even was with him to gank a bumper Macherial at one point, but we could not quite pin it down. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1996	Posted - 2016.07.30 07:42:36 - [482] - Quote Another important change which I would link to having linked accounts is having a defind main account which has a special advanatge, you can play two of the characters at the same time in EVE. I seriously recommend that CCP do this because new players and people who are poor in real life and in game are put at a huge disadvantage with only one character in space. This would mean that people would not be such lemmings jumping through gates for example. Of course in the fragile state that CCP is in they might balk at that, but it is really so important to stop their new players being easy cannon fodder to all the vets with god knows how many accounts. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1996	Posted - 2016.07.30 07:53:44 - [483] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: I don't have any war decs on this account (something I sure will now change ). I have plenty of experience with war decs on my other accounts - even recently with Marmite. Even if I did not have direct experience with war decs, the posts just in this thread alone would provide me with much information needed to adapt to them. I see a loss of a Brutix to Marmite on this character. I am looking for people who give the advice that you just did and have actually done this and defeated Marmite, Archetype., Vendetta, Break A Wish. So far people talk about it but I never see it, ok maybe a one off ship kill but I would love to see the fleet fights where you actually killed something and did not die in a fire. And by the way hisec merc groups, 0.0, lowsec and WH alliances and corps do not count. So open question if any hisec entity has had a full on fleet fight and won send me a mail, I would love to be proved wrong. NB. CODE does not count as they are Goons. Maybe because it is not that big of a deal. These blanket war decs are so easy to avoid that unless you just want the PvP provided then there is no reason to go out of your way to engage. A "friend" of mine got a war dec because he left a trade hub recently filled with some goodies. He got scanned and war dec showed up next day. Unbeknownst to the deccers this was not his normal trade hub, so week of war with no encounters - war over. This friend certainly could have engaged a fleet but the distance and possible gains were not worth the effort. Just like it was not worth the effort of the deccers to hunt him down. In my opinion and based on my experience, a blanket war dec is not a game impacting event. Now if you've pissed someone off and they are after you that is a different story. Well I have had those war decs too and they don't bother me either, also I had some actively hunting me, I did the Eve strategy of boring them to death. But as I said, show me actual fleet fights by hisec non-merc corps or alliances that have done what you suggested and won. I just have not seen any. I think it is possible to do that if one forces the mercs to fight to defend something which is why I keep pushing the OS for watch list in a constellation, which is ridiculed by the trolls on the Eve forums, one bbecause I proposed it and two because hisec players are there only to be farmed. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1997	Posted - 2016.07.30 07:57:23 - [484] - Quote Cerius Lennar wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Giovanni erkelens2 wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Giovanni erkelens2 wrote: Because some people got ganked, either a pointless miner gank by a CODE plant or a multibillion Indy gank. Because some people did really dumb ****. Because some people got tired of being camped and killed by Large HS wardec Corps. Because some people got AWOXED (if thats still a thing in 2016, correct me if im wrong) Because some people got tired of being hotdropped by a Large coalition in null. Because some people Have RL Stuff going on. Because for some people this game is too punishing. There is probally a shitton of other reasons, but i think ive summed up the main ones. Yeah because these things only started happening in 2014. Was i implying that ? Seems like it too me. Most of those things have pretty much always been in game. Whether that existed or not has never been contested in this thread. Of course they have always existed to some degree. What is relevant is the order of magnitude some of what you mentioned has become. What is relevant is the severity. There are now alternative space games and the perception that certain people are too buddy buddy with gankerrs and people like them that the game is loaded against them. My perception is that CCP Falcon is linked at the hip with gankers and his ridiculous post on consequences was a further nail in that coffin. And this wreck EHP thing, wow oh wow... COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Jasmine Deer Perkone Caldari State 22	Posted - 2016.07.30 08:24:40 - [485] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Another important change which I would link to having linked accounts is having a defind main account which has a special advanatge, you can play two of the characters at the same time in EVE. I seriously recommend that CCP do this because new players and people who are poor in real life and in game are put at a huge disadvantage with only one character in space. This would mean that people would not be such lemmings jumping through gates for example. Of course in the fragile state that CCP is in they might balk at that, but it is really so important to stop their new players being easy cannon fodder to all the vets with god knows how many accounts. not saying the idea doesn't have merit , but I'm worried it might just lead to an 'arms race' (who has more characters wins) and generally promote situations needing 2 characters to play the game. Might be one for serious discussion in its own thread in the Assembly Hall sub-forum as after a while threads like these just end up drowning in a sea of straw-man arguments and posters going nuclear over imagined slights.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2000	Posted - 2016.07.30 08:49:57 - [486] - Quote Jasmine Deer wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Another important change which I would link to having linked accounts is having a defind main account which has a special advanatge, you can play two of the characters at the same time in EVE. I seriously recommend that CCP do this because new players and people who are poor in real life and in game are put at a huge disadvantage with only one character in space. This would mean that people would not be such lemmings jumping through gates for example. Of course in the fragile state that CCP is in they might balk at that, but it is really so important to stop their new players being easy cannon fodder to all the vets with god knows how many accounts. not saying the idea doesn't have merit , but I'm worried it might just lead to an 'arms race' (who has more characters wins) and generally promote situations needing 2 characters to play the game. Might be one for serious discussion in its own thread in the Assembly Hall sub-forum as after a while threads like these just end up drowning in a sea of straw-man arguments and posters going nuclear over imagined slights. It was on what I would call the main account only and flagged as such, but it would only really work well if CCP decided to do linked accounts, but then they have the issue of consequences on ganking to deal with to balance off against. But the objective for me is give new players a scout from the start. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 62	Posted - 2016.07.30 09:24:44 - [487] - Quote Maybe game developers are between a hammer and an anvil? Having very few new stable players? Having the stable players with a big amount of wardeccers/gankers? So combination of few newer players and the fear fo losing the stable wardeccers/gankers make them hesitate to take any decision so they keep this crappy wardec system and so on?
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7859	Posted - 2016.07.30 09:38:58 - [488] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Actually its funny, I sat down and analysed various things, this wreck EHP debacle, CCP Falcon's amazing real life consequences post and then his frenzied locking of posts afterwards. The complete mess in terms of mechanics that actually totally benefit the gankers. The result that there is a load of fail players at the top who use the mechanics to slaughter and scam and destroy new players. I wanted Eve to succeed in spite of all this, and hoped that they could turn it around, but I cannot see it. CCP got so many things right with this game but they failed because of stupidity and arrogance, the first one was buffing destroyer DPS and then leaving mining ships with the tank of a wet paper bag. All that did was lose a mass of hisec players, when I realised this I started going on the forums to say what the hell are you doing, but they just ploughed on oblivious because at that time they were attracting new players and for some reason they did not analyse what was happening. Then it hit them very late in the day, or too late in the day to be honest and they suddenly adjusted the mining ships. But the damage was done, this was followed up CCP Falcon allowing Hyperdunking which was just crazy. The war dec system has turned into blanket war deck approach to get people enough targets who fly through pipes and visit hubs, it is as boring as hell. People get a war dec they log out for a week, they drop crop or they roll corps, its just so naff. In 0.0 we have people with BLOP's leaving AFK cloaky campers in systems 24/24 7/7, people get dropped then decide to stop logging in. The impact of this was massively increased by SP injectors that enabled the campers to create clean full skill toons and of course with no watch list you can no longer control risk with the hot droppers. It seems that Eve is moving from one ill thought out idea to the next which deepen these problems and yet the decisions are directed by a group of players who do such things like the wreck EHP to directly benefit themselves. In affect there is a reduction in players because CCP have screwed up, they lost track of getting the balance right, they allowed the people at the top of the game to over fish the new and lower level players with unbalanced mechanics and this is the sorry state that the game is in now. Add to this the simple fact it is an old game and that new games are coming along who seem to have a better attitude to dealing with meta gaming and rubbish like that and Eve is seen to be out of sync.. Those players who want to create something like an new corp or alliance will find the risk of getting a corp thief or spy in so high that they run the risk of losing everything by theft or by intel that results in the loss of their most expensive assets. Many people say what is the point, there is no way to control accounts, CCP just accept again that newer people are there to be robbed or blasted by veterans with multiple accounts and spy alts to burn. The problem is total complacency, naivety and incompetence. And yet there is so much right with this game. Major issues that need to be sorted: Actual consequences for ganking in hisec, not the laughable ones we have now Sorting out the rules on loot scooping so that people cannot avoid consequences Stop being naive when taking advice from veteran players with vested interests in their own gameplay Work on the war dec system so that both sides are not alienated Remove AFK gameplay that froces people to not login, or do something about the ease of dropping people like a delay on cyno's Link accounts, just do it. Eve is in a terrible state, that is my opinion. Yeah I have to admit that more and more, and to reiterate the reasons I already cited, that I'm just not caring about Eve any more. It's AG that kept me in because the projecting gankers are everything they claim to hate, and the times we did get one over on them, when our own spies reported rage and tears, it was epic. The whine of 1000 hapless "carebears" - if you could find them (there's a reason why the gankers go out of their way to get tears on audio or in Eve mails and bandy them about like trophies) - was nothing compared to the salt of a failed ganker. Shooting their wrecks was epic though. But now I just figure whatever else we come up with, they'll cry and get their way. All while claiming they don't, which is part of jollies they get over the whole thing. Still it's boring though. Maybe the freighter will be saved, maybe not. Meh. And I see reports of WoW-like content, these "events" where it's like "kill 15 pirates and bring back their underwear and get a reward". Big effing deal. I remember live events, where people dropped everything and showed up with whatever they could grab, and the epic fleet commanders who still managed to make that work somehow. And you knew you were in the history of a game that people loved "I was there". Now, whatever. It does not happen anymore anyway. Dropbear is gone in more ways than one. It was good to be around during that time though, I won't forget it. There are in the meantime new games out there, ones that are not attracting the "key the neighbor's new car" crowd (CCP means "crowd control productions" and apparenty their product is perfect for a society ever becoming full of people who are truly rotten on the one hand, but too cowardly to do anything actually criminal or mischievous IRL on the other) . Deep down it feels like to explore them is like a breath of fresh air. But time to play games is heinously lacking these days for me anyway. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 14053	Posted - 2016.07.30 09:41:04 - [489] - Quote I see a big part of the reason why of all this is like it is, is because of that take over of the White Wolf Publishing and World of Darkness development. I think they would be a lot better developing EVE full time, and sticking to World of EVE brand. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 58	Posted - 2016.07.30 09:51:25 - [490] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Jasmine Deer wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Another important change which I would link to having linked accounts is having a defind main account which has a special advanatge, you can play two of the characters at the same time in EVE. I seriously recommend that CCP do this because new players and people who are poor in real life and in game are put at a huge disadvantage with only one character in space. This would mean that people would not be such lemmings jumping through gates for example. Of course in the fragile state that CCP is in they might balk at that, but it is really so important to stop their new players being easy cannon fodder to all the vets with god knows how many accounts. not saying the idea doesn't have merit , but I'm worried it might just lead to an 'arms race' (who has more characters wins) and generally promote situations needing 2 characters to play the game. Might be one for serious discussion in its own thread in the Assembly Hall sub-forum as after a while threads like these just end up drowning in a sea of straw-man arguments and posters going nuclear over imagined slights. It was on what I would call the main account only and flagged as such, but it would only really work well if CCP decided to do linked accounts, but then they have the issue of consequences on ganking to deal with to balance off against. But the objective for me is give new players a scout from the start. I do not want my accounts linked. If we got rid of watch list due to privacy reasons then I should be able to keep my separately paid accounts separate. What possible gain is their from having accounts linked?
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2016	Posted - 2016.07.30 10:07:00 - [491] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Jasmine Deer wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Another important change which I would link to having linked accounts is having a defind main account which has a special advanatge, you can play two of the characters at the same time in EVE. I seriously recommend that CCP do this because new players and people who are poor in real life and in game are put at a huge disadvantage with only one character in space. This would mean that people would not be such lemmings jumping through gates for example. Of course in the fragile state that CCP is in they might balk at that, but it is really so important to stop their new players being easy cannon fodder to all the vets with god knows how many accounts. not saying the idea doesn't have merit , but I'm worried it might just lead to an 'arms race' (who has more characters wins) and generally promote situations needing 2 characters to play the game. Might be one for serious discussion in its own thread in the Assembly Hall sub-forum as after a while threads like these just end up drowning in a sea of straw-man arguments and posters going nuclear over imagined slights. It was on what I would call the main account only and flagged as such, but it would only really work well if CCP decided to do linked accounts, but then they have the issue of consequences on ganking to deal with to balance off against. But the objective for me is give new players a scout from the start. I do not want my accounts linked. If we got rid of watch list due to privacy reasons then I should be able to keep my separately paid accounts separate. What possible gain is their from having accounts linked? Of course you do not want accounts linked, it makes spying and scamming so easy a child can do it. The gain is that people can check better for spies and scammers and perhaps create better content in terms of making ships explode rather then see all their hangers cleaned out or get hot dropped for easy kills. Of course it will only clean out the lazy ones, some will still get around it, but it makes it harder and taht is where CCP fails so often. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2016	Posted - 2016.07.30 10:28:39 - [492] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Yeah I have to admit that more and more, and to reiterate the reasons I already cited, that I'm just not caring about Eve any more. It's AG that kept me in because the projecting gankers are everything they claim to hate, and the times we did get one over on them, when our own spies reported rage and tears, it was epic. The whine of 1000 hapless "carebears" - if you could find them (there's a reason why the gankers go out of their way to get tears on audio or in Eve mails and bandy them about like trophies) - was nothing compared to the salt of a failed ganker. Shooting their wrecks was epic though. But now I just figure whatever else we come up with, they'll cry and get their way. All while claiming they don't, which is part of jollies they get over the whole thing. Still it's boring though. Maybe the freighter will be saved, maybe not. Meh. And I see reports of WoW-like content, these "events" where it's like "kill 15 pirates and bring back their underwear and get a reward". Big effing deal. I remember live events, where people dropped everything and showed up with whatever they could grab, and the epic fleet commanders who still managed to make that work somehow. And you knew you were in the history of a game that people loved "I was there". Now, whatever. It does not happen anymore anyway. Dropbear is gone in more ways than one. It was good to be around during that time though, I won't forget it. There are in the meantime new games out there, ones that are not attracting the "key the neighbor's new car" crowd (CCP means "crowd control productions" and apparenty their product is perfect for a society ever becoming full of people who are truly rotten on the one hand, but too cowardly to do anything actually criminal or mischievous IRL on the other) . Deep down it feels like to explore them is like a breath of fresh air. But time to play games is heinously lacking these days for me anyway. People may start looking at me going off on the change to wreck EHP and think its no big deal, well for years the wrecks all had 500 EHP, some people did not like it but it was left that way. Most AG players are not aggressive but a small subset was developing the will to gank the wrecks, and I mean a small subset, and yet before that could develop into something meaningful that could have adjusted to the change in wreck EHP CCP buffed it on the side of the gankers. The point is that it was a very small subset of AG players and in fact not that many wrecks got ganked. But in came the change. The issue I have most of all with this is that if CCP had waited a while and analysed game balance they would have perhaps thought hold on let this develop a bit then see how we can let this emergent game play develop and adjust it so that we don't kill it stone dead. That is what a competent games company would do. But no, bang killed stone dead, stillborn basically. And that is why people are disillusioned with Eve, its stupid decisions like that with no thought, no understanding of their game and how it was developing. Once I saw the reality of this event for what it was I decided enough is enough for me, I will stop playing 5th October. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 17867	Posted - 2016.07.30 11:31:04 - [493] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Actually its funny, I sat down and analysed various things, this wreck EHP debacle, CCP Falcon's amazing real life consequences post and then his frenzied locking of posts afterwards. The complete mess in terms of mechanics that actually totally benefit the gankers. The result that there is a load of fail players at the top who use the mechanics to slaughter and scam and destroy new players. I wanted Eve to succeed in spite of all this, and hoped that they could turn it around, but I cannot see it. CCP got so many things right with this game but they failed because of stupidity and arrogance, the first one was buffing destroyer DPS and then leaving mining ships with the tank of a wet paper bag. All that did was lose a mass of hisec players, when I realised this I started going on the forums to say what the hell are you doing, but they just ploughed on oblivious because at that time they were attracting new players and for some reason they did not analyse what was happening. Then it hit them very late in the day, or too late in the day to be honest and they suddenly adjusted the mining ships. But the damage was done, this was followed up CCP Falcon allowing Hyperdunking which was just crazy. The war dec system has turned into blanket war deck approach to get people enough targets who fly through pipes and visit hubs, it is as boring as hell. People get a war dec they log out for a week, they drop crop or they roll corps, its just so naff. In 0.0 we have people with BLOP's leaving AFK cloaky campers in systems 24/24 7/7, people get dropped then decide to stop logging in. The impact of this was massively increased by SP injectors that enabled the campers to create clean full skill toons and of course with no watch list you can no longer control risk with the hot droppers. It seems that Eve is moving from one ill thought out idea to the next which deepen these problems and yet the decisions are directed by a group of players who do such things like the wreck EHP to directly benefit themselves. In affect there is a reduction in players because CCP have screwed up, they lost track of getting the balance right, they allowed the people at the top of the game to over fish the new and lower level players with unbalanced mechanics and this is the sorry state that the game is in now. Add to this the simple fact it is an old game and that new games are coming along who seem to have a better attitude to dealing with meta gaming and rubbish like that and Eve is seen to be out of sync.. Those players who want to create something like an new corp or alliance will find the risk of getting a corp thief or spy in so high that they run the risk of losing everything by theft or by intel that results in the loss of their most expensive assets. Many people say what is the point, there is no way to control accounts, CCP just accept again that newer people are there to be robbed or blasted by veterans with multiple accounts and spy alts to burn. The problem is total complacency, naivety and incompetence. And yet there is so much right with this game. Major issues that need to be sorted: Actual consequences for ganking in hisec, not the laughable ones we have now Sorting out the rules on loot scooping so that people cannot avoid consequences Stop being naive when taking advice from veteran players with vested interests in their own gameplay Work on the war dec system so that both sides are not alienated Remove AFK gameplay that froces people to not login, or do something about the ease of dropping people like a delay on cyno's Link accounts, just do it. Eve is in a terrible state, that is my opinion. Yeah I have to admit that more and more, and to reiterate the reasons I already cited, that I'm just not caring about Eve any more. It's AG that kept me in because the projecting gankers are everything they claim to hate, and the times we did get one over on them, when our own spies reported rage and tears, it was epic. The whine of 1000 hapless "carebears" - if you could find them (there's a reason why the gankers go out of their way to get tears on audio or in Eve mails and bandy them about like trophies) - was nothing compared to the salt of a failed ganker. Shooting their wrecks was epic though. But now I just figure whatever else we come up with, they'll cry and get their way. All while claiming they don't, which is part of jollies they get over the whole thing. Still it's boring though. Maybe the freighter will be saved, maybe not. Meh. And I see reports of WoW-like content, these "events" where it's like "kill 15 pirates and bring back their underwear and get a reward". Big effing deal. I remember live events, where people dropped everything and showed up with whatever they could grab, and the epic fleet commanders who still managed to make that work somehow. And you knew you were in the history of a game that people loved "I was there". Now, whatever. It does not happen anymore anyway. Dropbear is gone in more ways than one. It was good to be around during that time though, I won't forget it. There are in the meantime new games out there, ones that are not attracting the "key the neighbor's new car" crowd (CCP means "crowd control productions" and apparenty their product is perfect for a society ever becoming full of people who are truly rotten on the one hand, but too cowardly to do anything actually criminal or mischievous IRL on the other) . Deep down it feels like to explore them is like a breath of fresh air. But time to play games is heinously lacking these days for me anyway. If you're not prepared to do 15000 damage to a zero-resists stationary object then you're not prepared to do even 1% of the adapting that the ganker preofession has had to do over the years. A couple of quick-locking tornados will easily manage this. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
NotTheSmartestCookie New Order Logistics CODE. 147	Posted - 2016.07.30 11:36:20 - [494] - Quote I'm often amazed at the amount of inane vitriol that some people spew over the loss of space pixels in a PvP game. It wouldn't be so bad if miners and the AG community would limit their toxic verbiage to EVE mails, but they often have no issue with venting in a most foul manner in local as well. This can be immensely off-putting to new players. A good attitude, learning from losses and celebrating victories together will of course do much more to make EVE an attractive game that is welcoming to new players than the continuous ranting in local and the sulking on the EVE forums. If you want a positive game experience then make sure to make a positive contribution yourself! Making New Eden a better place 8 rounds of Void at a time. Funny, smartest, pretty and relevant. Pick 3. Proud shareholder in Halaima MinerBumping
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2017	Posted - 2016.07.30 11:46:24 - [495] - Quote Malcanis wrote: If you're not prepared to do 15000 damage to a zero-resists stationary object then you're not prepared to do even 1% of the adapting that the ganker preofession has had to do over the years. A couple of quick-locking tornados will easily manage this. Yeah right, now what multitude of factors are you completely ignoring in making that this is easy statement. You were a member of the CSM and your lack of depth and throw away lines on the subject says everything about the failure of CCP and who it chose to advise them. Most of hisec is made of of indy focussed alts of players from other areas. Those who are real hisec players cannot use their mains due to the security status issue, because you know what they operate in hisec so they have to use alts for this, what a surprise this. So this gets into the meat of the issue, when you are talking about people doing this with alts and they have other training needs on their mains plus the need to keep their main clean then it gets to be a small sub set that takes time to develop. Time that Endie as a member of the CSM and CCP removed. That you can just make a sarky comment with no real understanding proves that the CSM and its 0.0 players have no idea about anything to do with hisec. Thank you for making it so obvious... NB. The gankers adapted to this not by fighting in space but by getting the EHP changed, so much for the contempt, you should chuck that at those that pushed CCP to make this change on a mechanic that had been like that for ages. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26455	Posted - 2016.07.30 11:47:26 - [496] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: For what I'm seeing even with my hisec character now, wardecs ( like they are now ) are the worst idea CCP had ( or on the contrary the best way to annoy many players ) They are funny only for wardeccers. Period. Do you know why war in hisec is waged the way that it is? It's because a subset of players have never accepted the realities of the game that they chose to play, and have been lobbying CCP for over a decade to change it to suit them. CCP acquiesced with changes to many things which forced the wardec corps to work together, now everybody who is subject to wardecs but doesn't know how, or is too lazy, to avoid completely or mitigate the impact of them is suffering for it; all while there have always options to do exactly that. Wardecs and other conflict "problems" aren't mechanical, they are people problems, i.e the result of, often wilful, ignorance and an unwillingness to work together to overcome an obstacle. As the topic in general, as far as I know the entire MMO industry is suffering from a downturn in customers. CCP are not unique in seeing their player numbers drop, although the rather unique nature of Eve is what has allowed it to outlive many of it's "siblings" in the MMO "family". Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Giaus Felix Hedion University Amarr Empire 168	Posted - 2016.07.30 11:56:07 - [497] - Quote Malcanis wrote: If you're not prepared to do 15000 damage to a zero-resists stationary object then you're not prepared to do even 1% of the adapting that the ganker preofession has had to do over the years. A couple of quick-locking tornados will easily manage this. Effort, isk and alts, something gankers and wardeccers are more than willing to invest, it's a shame that can't be said of some of the other groups in highsec. I am Ralph's junk DNA.
Giovanni erkelens2 rock shot industries Phoenix Company Alliance 41	Posted - 2016.07.30 12:27:28 - [498] - Quote NotTheSmartestCookie wrote: I'm often amazed at the amount of inane vitriol that some people spew over the loss of space pixels in a PvP game. It wouldn't be so bad if miners and the AG community would limit their toxic verbiage to EVE mails, but they often have no issue with venting in a most foul manner in local as well. This can be immensely off-putting to new players. A good attitude, learning from losses and celebrating victories together will of course do much more to make EVE an attractive game that is welcoming to new players than the continuous ranting in local and the sulking on the EVE forums. If you want a positive game experience then make sure to make a positive contribution yourself! more welcoming to newbies would be not forcing them to buy a lame permit or something like that by continuously blowing up their mining ships, but what would you know. one of the most toxic behaving corps complaining about toxic behaviour of others against them, probably aint going to read anything funnier than this on these foums today.
Giovanni erkelens2 rock shot industries Phoenix Company Alliance 41	Posted - 2016.07.30 12:31:39 - [499] - Quote Giaus Felix wrote: Malcanis wrote: If you're not prepared to do 15000 damage to a zero-resists stationary object then you're not prepared to do even 1% of the adapting that the ganker preofession has had to do over the years. A couple of quick-locking tornados will easily manage this. Effort, isk and alts, something gankers and wardeccers are more than willing to invest, it's a shame that can't be said of some of the other groups in highsec. most of the people hit by ganks fly unprotected paper thin ships, its their fault they die when thats the case.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5045	Posted - 2016.07.30 18:11:50 - [500] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Well I have had those war decs too and they don't bother me either, also I had some actively hunting me, I did the Eve strategy of boring them to death. But as I said, show me actual fleet fights by hisec non-merc corps or alliances that have done what you suggested and won. I just have not seen any. I think it is possible to do that if one forces the mercs to fight to defend something which is why I keep pushing the OS for watch list in a constellation, which is ridiculed by the trolls on the Eve forums, one because I proposed it and two because hisec players are there only to be farmed. Nice absurd criteria you got there. I too like to demand criteria that won't be met to support my arguments. BTW, I'll leave it to you to figure out why you won't likely see these fleet fights you are asking for. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5045	Posted - 2016.07.30 18:14:46 - [501] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Maybe game developers are between a hammer and an anvil? Having very few new stable players? Having the stable players with a big amount of wardeccers/gankers? So combination of few newer players and the fear fo losing the stable wardeccers/gankers make them hesitate to take any decision so they keep this crappy wardec system and so on? And how many players are in war dec alliances? Can you provide relative ratios? No? Wow, I'm shocked. My point is I think you are using this issue, fewer players logged in, to push your own personal agenda. You have no facts to back up your claim, so I'm just going to sit here and think it is Bravo Sierra until you do something other than complain. Here is an idea....Go start getting information. Find out how many people are in these war dec alliances. It is not like this information is hidden. It just takes effort...oh...yeah we know about effort and certain kinds of players. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 59	Posted - 2016.07.30 18:22:13 - [502] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: I do not want my accounts linked. If we got rid of watch list due to privacy reasons then I should be able to keep my separately paid accounts separate. What possible gain is their from having accounts linked? Of course you do not want accounts linked, it makes spying and scamming so easy a child can do it. The gain is that people can check better for spies and scammers and perhaps create better content in terms of making ships explode rather then see all their hangers cleaned out or get hot dropped for easy kills. Of course it will only clean out the lazy ones, some will still get around it, but it makes it harder and taht is where CCP fails so often. What is wrong with spying and scamming? I think it is pretty good content to read about corp infiltration, espionage and what not. Is this yet another fundamental element you want to remove from the game? Why do you want to eliminate every play style but the one that you prefer?
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2020	Posted - 2016.07.30 18:29:38 - [503] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Well I have had those war decs too and they don't bother me either, also I had some actively hunting me, I did the Eve strategy of boring them to death. But as I said, show me actual fleet fights by hisec non-merc corps or alliances that have done what you suggested and won. I just have not seen any. I think it is possible to do that if one forces the mercs to fight to defend something which is why I keep pushing the OS for watch list in a constellation, which is ridiculed by the trolls on the Eve forums, one because I proposed it and two because hisec players are there only to be farmed. Nice absurd criteria you got there. I too like to demand criteria that won't be met to support my arguments. BTW, I'll leave it to you to figure out why you won't likely see these fleet fights you are asking for. Generally when people say things like I will leave you to work out why, it means that they have no idea. But my expectation is taht they will have multiple ones set up ready to go, but so what, the killboard will not be totally green will it... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2020	Posted - 2016.07.30 18:32:47 - [504] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: I do not want my accounts linked. If we got rid of watch list due to privacy reasons then I should be able to keep my separately paid accounts separate. What possible gain is their from having accounts linked? Of course you do not want accounts linked, it makes spying and scamming so easy a child can do it. The gain is that people can check better for spies and scammers and perhaps create better content in terms of making ships explode rather then see all their hangers cleaned out or get hot dropped for easy kills. Of course it will only clean out the lazy ones, some will still get around it, but it makes it harder and taht is where CCP fails so often. What is wrong with spying and scamming? I think it is pretty good content to read about corp infiltration, espionage and what not. Is this yet another fundamental element you want to remove from the game? Why do you want to eliminate every play style but the one that you prefer? Yes and no, because if it was difficult to do then I would agree with you, except it is really easy to do. What it did was just screw over any new alliance trying to fight its way to the top in the most easy way possible, without in a large number of cases actually fighting or blowing stuff up. I saw quite a few committed guys running fleets creating content just give up after all their stuff was stolen from corp hangers or their cap fleet was dropped on and obliterated. What this game needs is new blood and new entities, the easy spying scamming side of things is a major block to that. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 59	Posted - 2016.07.30 18:34:50 - [505] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Well I have had those war decs too and they don't bother me either, also I had some actively hunting me, I did the Eve strategy of boring them to death. But as I said, show me actual fleet fights by hisec non-merc corps or alliances that have done what you suggested and won. I just have not seen any. I think it is possible to do that if one forces the mercs to fight to defend something which is why I keep pushing the OS for watch list in a constellation, which is ridiculed by the trolls on the Eve forums, one because I proposed it and two because hisec players are there only to be farmed. Nice absurd criteria you got there. I too like to demand criteria that won't be met to support my arguments. BTW, I'll leave it to you to figure out why you won't likely see these fleet fights you are asking for. Generally when people say things like I will leave you to work out why, it means that they have no idea. But my expectation is taht they will have multiple ones set up ready to go, but so what, the killboard will not be totally green will it... So your definition of victory of a war deccer is to have all kills and zero losses? I mean that is a nice goal but hardly a justification for elimination/nerf of the war dec system. I think I now understand just how deep your delusions run.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2020	Posted - 2016.07.30 18:41:44 - [506] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Well I have had those war decs too and they don't bother me either, also I had some actively hunting me, I did the Eve strategy of boring them to death. But as I said, show me actual fleet fights by hisec non-merc corps or alliances that have done what you suggested and won. I just have not seen any. I think it is possible to do that if one forces the mercs to fight to defend something which is why I keep pushing the OS for watch list in a constellation, which is ridiculed by the trolls on the Eve forums, one because I proposed it and two because hisec players are there only to be farmed. Nice absurd criteria you got there. I too like to demand criteria that won't be met to support my arguments. BTW, I'll leave it to you to figure out why you won't likely see these fleet fights you are asking for. Generally when people say things like I will leave you to work out why, it means that they have no idea. But my expectation is taht they will have multiple ones set up ready to go, but so what, the killboard will not be totally green will it... So your definition of victory of a war deccer is to have all kills and zero losses? I mean that is a nice goal but hardly a justification for elimination/nerf of the war dec system. I think I now understand just how deep your delusions run. Sorry but what drug are you smoking, I want some, my view on war decs is to drop the price, 50m max on alliances and have it so that should a character join another player corp within 7 days of leaving a war dec he will take it with him. I would like some restriction on continuous decs on corps, so they don't get dog piled to extinction, but not sure how to do that. I would like an OS which gives watch list functionality in a constellation which can be destroyed when operational to create content. I would like to see a reduction in blanket war decs though I am totally happy to see them on 0.0 alliances. I would like to see small corps beating the hell out of each other. The war dec system as a whole is quite good, the issue is how hisec has developed. So if that is eliminating war decs, I have to ask what the hell? When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5045	Posted - 2016.07.30 18:46:07 - [507] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Of course you do not want accounts linked, it makes spying and scamming so easy a child can do it. The gain is that people can check better for spies and scammers and perhaps create better content in terms of making ships explode rather then see all their hangers cleaned out or get hot dropped for easy kills. Of course it will only clean out the lazy ones, some will still get around it, but it makes it harder and taht is where CCP fails so often. Well then keep them separate then. I prefer a game with spying, scamming and corp thefts. We have all heard those stories and been impressed by them. Hell the Guiding Hand Social club is still something people point too. That kind of thing would become extremely difficult if not impossible. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 59	Posted - 2016.07.30 18:47:16 - [508] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: I do not want my accounts linked. If we got rid of watch list due to privacy reasons then I should be able to keep my separately paid accounts separate. What possible gain is their from having accounts linked? Of course you do not want accounts linked, it makes spying and scamming so easy a child can do it. The gain is that people can check better for spies and scammers and perhaps create better content in terms of making ships explode rather then see all their hangers cleaned out or get hot dropped for easy kills. Of course it will only clean out the lazy ones, some will still get around it, but it makes it harder and taht is where CCP fails so often. What is wrong with spying and scamming? I think it is pretty good content to read about corp infiltration, espionage and what not. Is this yet another fundamental element you want to remove from the game? Why do you want to eliminate every play style but the one that you prefer? Yes and no, because if it was difficult to do then I would agree with you, except it is really easy to do. What it did was just screw over any new alliance trying to fight its way to the top in the most easy way possible, without in a large number of cases actually fighting or blowing stuff up. I saw quite a few committed guys running fleets creating content just give up after all their stuff was stolen from corp hangers or their cap fleet was dropped on and obliterated. What this game needs is new blood and new entities, the easy spying scamming side of things is a major block to that. So a new alliance can't maintain it's internal security and the whole game needs changing? Hell CCP put out a very long video about doing just what you are talking about! Causality I think the infiltrators are creating content as well. Just because you find certain content not to your liking does not mean it is not content. Other than it would be nice to insure the long life of a game that I would like to keep playing (which I honestly do not think is in any jeopardy). Why des the game need new entities and new blood? What exactly do the existing entities have that can not be taken or duplicated? Is there some mythical currently out of game group that you think you can recruit to begin playing EVE and make it a better place? I mean what exactly do you need this new blood to do? Just agree with you and play your way only?
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5045	Posted - 2016.07.30 18:48:48 - [509] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Well I have had those war decs too and they don't bother me either, also I had some actively hunting me, I did the Eve strategy of boring them to death. But as I said, show me actual fleet fights by hisec non-merc corps or alliances that have done what you suggested and won. I just have not seen any. I think it is possible to do that if one forces the mercs to fight to defend something which is why I keep pushing the OS for watch list in a constellation, which is ridiculed by the trolls on the Eve forums, one because I proposed it and two because hisec players are there only to be farmed. Nice absurd criteria you got there. I too like to demand criteria that won't be met to support my arguments. BTW, I'll leave it to you to figure out why you won't likely see these fleet fights you are asking for. Generally when people say things like I will leave you to work out why, it means that they have no idea. But my expectation is taht they will have multiple ones set up ready to go, but so what, the killboard will not be totally green will it... It is obvious. Having such fights in HS are extremely rare even if the party or parties being decced want to fight. Holding people on the field is not nearly as easy as it is in NS. Even in LS people might stay on the field because of what they are fighting over, but in HS that is hardly if ever the case. So, if you roll in with a fleet that can take on the war deccing corp they'll do the obvious thing--dock up. No fight. No killboard data. You have in short set up criteria that makes your position 100% secure. It is a dishonest tactic. Edit: Because you are deliberately obtuse to try and score cheap points, when I say there will be no killboard data I mean there will be no killboard data with a big fleet on either side. One side might catch a few guys, but chances are they will not catch the entire fleet. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2020	Posted - 2016.07.30 18:50:09 - [510] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Of course you do not want accounts linked, it makes spying and scamming so easy a child can do it. The gain is that people can check better for spies and scammers and perhaps create better content in terms of making ships explode rather then see all their hangers cleaned out or get hot dropped for easy kills. Of course it will only clean out the lazy ones, some will still get around it, but it makes it harder and taht is where CCP fails so often. Well then keep them separate then. I prefer a game with spying, scamming and corp thefts. We have all heard those stories and been impressed by them. Hell the Guiding Hand Social club is still something people point too. That kind of thing would become extremely difficult if not impossible. Then expect Eve to continue to decline, if you have a very strategic game with superb fleet comabt excellent ship types and all taht stuff and yet you drop back to the lack of account linking making it virtually impossible in game to work out who the new recruit is then you are pretty much creating a glass ceiling. The only people who can survive in that is small core groups who know each other well or big entities that can take the hit. the rest have to accept major hits again and again which often breaks them and at best feeds easy kills to entitled top feeders. Anyone with a brain can see thst this is a major issue for dynamic new players. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5045	Posted - 2016.07.30 18:51:47 - [511] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Of course you do not want accounts linked, it makes spying and scamming so easy a child can do it. The gain is that people can check better for spies and scammers and perhaps create better content in terms of making ships explode rather then see all their hangers cleaned out or get hot dropped for easy kills. Of course it will only clean out the lazy ones, some will still get around it, but it makes it harder and taht is where CCP fails so often. Well then keep them separate then. I prefer a game with spying, scamming and corp thefts. We have all heard those stories and been impressed by them. Hell the Guiding Hand Social club is still something people point too. That kind of thing would become extremely difficult if not impossible. Then expect Eve to continue to decline... Explain why Eve grew from 2003-2010 then. We had spying, scamming, corp thefts, all of it back then. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 59	Posted - 2016.07.30 18:53:13 - [512] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Well I have had those war decs too and they don't bother me either, also I had some actively hunting me, I did the Eve strategy of boring them to death. But as I said, show me actual fleet fights by hisec non-merc corps or alliances that have done what you suggested and won. I just have not seen any. I think it is possible to do that if one forces the mercs to fight to defend something which is why I keep pushing the OS for watch list in a constellation, which is ridiculed by the trolls on the Eve forums, one because I proposed it and two because hisec players are there only to be farmed. Nice absurd criteria you got there. I too like to demand criteria that won't be met to support my arguments. BTW, I'll leave it to you to figure out why you won't likely see these fleet fights you are asking for. Generally when people say things like I will leave you to work out why, it means that they have no idea. But my expectation is taht they will have multiple ones set up ready to go, but so what, the killboard will not be totally green will it... So your definition of victory of a war deccer is to have all kills and zero losses? I mean that is a nice goal but hardly a justification for elimination/nerf of the war dec system. I think I now understand just how deep your delusions run. I would like to see a reduction in blanket war decs though I am totally happy to see them on 0.0 alliances. I would like to see small corps beating the hell out of each other. So if that is eliminating war decs, I have to ask what the hell? You know your opinions are so all over the place that I just can't keep track. So I retract my statement saying you wanting to nerf wardecs. However the bolded part above again shows you just DO NOT GET EVE. Everyone plays by the same rules - there are no special groups in EvE which play by different fundamental rules.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5045	Posted - 2016.07.30 18:53:30 - [513] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Another important change which I would link to having linked accounts is having a defind main account which has a special advanatge, you can play two of the characters at the same time in EVE. I seriously recommend that CCP do this because new players and people who are poor in real life and in game are put at a huge disadvantage with only one character in space. This would mean that people would not be such lemmings jumping through gates for example. Of course in the fragile state that CCP is in they might balk at that, but it is really so important to stop their new players being easy cannon fodder to all the vets with god knows how many accounts. Ahhh using video games to fight for social justice. Next stupid idea Drac? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 62	Posted - 2016.07.30 18:55:45 - [514] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: Maybe game developers are between a hammer and an anvil? Having very few new stable players? Having the stable players with a big amount of wardeccers/gankers? So combination of few newer players and the fear fo losing the stable wardeccers/gankers make them hesitate to take any decision so they keep this crappy wardec system and so on? And how many players are in war dec alliances? Can you provide relative ratios? No? Wow, I'm shocked. My point is I think you are using this issue, fewer players logged in, to push your own personal agenda. You have no facts to back up your claim, so I'm just going to sit here and think it is Bravo Sierra until you do something other than complain. Here is an idea....Go start getting information. Find out how many people are in these war dec alliances. It is not like this information is hidden. It just takes effort...oh...yeah we know about effort and certain kinds of players. What I know is that I have a hisec char that I use for mine and for some gas huffing, I joined a corp some weeks ago because some persons in it are nice for a little chat and I am wardecced one week yes one week no. While usually I see more than 10 persons always online, everytime the corp is wardecced the numer drastically lowers to the ceo and a couple of other players that do some fighting and don't care if they lose their ship. I could keep mining as usual in a similar way to when I do in wormholes, dscanning al time, aligned and so on but I prefer to focus on my other chars and give some more time to irl activities. It's annoying because you are forced to do some pvp against persons you have no idea who they are how they play even if you didn't train the skills, you are basically in nullsec for one week and there is none left in the corp to chat because everyone is docked or paused to play, or left the corp ( I saw on another char several times logins interesting persons I was chatting with ) and so on. Only because others have fun to hunt the persons of my corp for cheap and for long... pretty sad actually.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2020	Posted - 2016.07.30 18:57:22 - [515] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Of course you do not want accounts linked, it makes spying and scamming so easy a child can do it. The gain is that people can check better for spies and scammers and perhaps create better content in terms of making ships explode rather then see all their hangers cleaned out or get hot dropped for easy kills. Of course it will only clean out the lazy ones, some will still get around it, but it makes it harder and taht is where CCP fails so often. Well then keep them separate then. I prefer a game with spying, scamming and corp thefts. We have all heard those stories and been impressed by them. Hell the Guiding Hand Social club is still something people point too. That kind of thing would become extremely difficult if not impossible. Then expect Eve to continue to decline... Explain why Eve grew from 2003-2010 then. We had spying, scamming, corp thefts, all of it back then. There are cumulative factors impacting Eve, this is just one of many. I saw people dropping out from 2010 who realised that it was not worth it to put so much effort in when it could be wiped out by a single lazy person who they could never identify in game because there was no linking of accounts. Losing committed players to that issue is a crying shame in my opinion, those are the type of people who create content and events. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5045	Posted - 2016.07.30 18:58:55 - [516] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: So a new alliance can't maintain it's internal security and the whole game needs changing? Hell CCP put out a very long video about doing just what you are talking about! Causality Exactly what Dracvlad sees as a bug, CCP deliberately advertises as a feature. But everyone else (including CCP Devs) except Dracvlad and his coterie of BadsGäó are the brainless ones. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5045	Posted - 2016.07.30 19:01:22 - [517] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: There are cumulative factors impacting Eve, this is just one of many. I saw people dropping out from 2010 who realised that it was not worth it to put so much effort in when it could be wiped out by a single lazy person who they could never identify in game because there was no linking of accounts. Losing committed players to that issue is a crying shame in my opinion, those are the type of people who create content and events. In other words, you can't. You just have anecdotal Bravo Sierra based on no actual randomized data set, no actual analysis, in point of fact you have nothing. By the way, I love your portrayal of the person who engineers a corp theft as lazy. Never mind they had to get into a position of trust to begin with. That means they probably did alot of work for the alliance before turning and stabbing it in the back. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2020	Posted - 2016.07.30 19:02:05 - [518] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Another important change which I would link to having linked accounts is having a defind main account which has a special advanatge, you can play two of the characters at the same time in EVE. I seriously recommend that CCP do this because new players and people who are poor in real life and in game are put at a huge disadvantage with only one character in space. This would mean that people would not be such lemmings jumping through gates for example. Of course in the fragile state that CCP is in they might balk at that, but it is really so important to stop their new players being easy cannon fodder to all the vets with god knows how many accounts. Ahhh using video games to fight for social justice. Next stupid idea Drac? I thought you would hate that one, but as a new player which I was in 2009 I ran with a single account and in the end I got another account at the end of 2011. At that point I was able to scout which cut my risk immensely, if new players are just cannon fodder and the game is better played with two accounts then the game company had better work out something otherwise those new players will walk when they realise they have to pay 30Gé¼ a month or grind ISK to pay for plex. How many just go, nope, not for me? When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 62	Posted - 2016.07.30 19:02:46 - [519] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Then expect Eve to continue to decline, if you have a very strategic game with superb fleet comabt excellent ship types and all taht stuff and yet you drop back to the lack of account linking making it virtually impossible in game to work out who the new recruit is then you are pretty much creating a glass ceiling. The only people who can survive in that is small core groups who know each other well or big entities that can take the hit. the rest have to accept major hits again and again which often breaks them and at best feeds easy kills to entitled top feeders. Anyone with a brain can see thst this is a major issue for dynamic new players. Espionage and destabilization to ones opponent is part of any successful strategy. I think you are confusing tactics with strategy. What you think is a detriment tot he game is actually one of it's strongest points. You can affect your opponents in other ways than just the combat environment built into the game. This is what gives the game depth and reality.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5045	Posted - 2016.07.30 19:04:37 - [520] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Another important change which I would link to having linked accounts is having a defind main account which has a special advanatge, you can play two of the characters at the same time in EVE. I seriously recommend that CCP do this because new players and people who are poor in real life and in game are put at a huge disadvantage with only one character in space. This would mean that people would not be such lemmings jumping through gates for example. Of course in the fragile state that CCP is in they might balk at that, but it is really so important to stop their new players being easy cannon fodder to all the vets with god knows how many accounts. Ahhh using video games to fight for social justice. Next stupid idea Drac? I thought you would hate that one, but as a new player which I was in 2009 I ran with a single account and in the end I got another account at the end of 2011. At that point I was able to scout which cut my risk immensely, if new players are just cannon fodder and the game is better played with two accounts then the game company had better work out something otherwise those new players will walk when they realise they have to pay 30Gé¼ a month or grind ISK to pay for plex. How many just go, nope, not for me? CCP should be catering to people based on their RL circumstances. That is just errant nonsense. I don't care what you did in 2009, it is irrelevant. Your own personal story is of little to anyone but you. I got bad news for you Drac, nobody here, and especially you, is God's special snowflake. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2020	Posted - 2016.07.30 19:04:58 - [521] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: You know your opinions are so all over the place that I just can't keep track. So I retract my statement saying you wanting to nerf wardecs. However the bolded part above again shows you just DO NOT GET EVE. Everyone plays by the same rules - there are no special groups in EvE which play by different fundamental rules. Gankers are, as soon as we started shooting their wrecks bang, wreck EHP went up. Did I say rules to force that, nope I just suggested that I did not care about 0.0 alliances being blanket war decked, which is why they got the price increased. The 0.0 dominated CSM did that mate. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2020	Posted - 2016.07.30 19:05:51 - [522] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: There are cumulative factors impacting Eve, this is just one of many. I saw people dropping out from 2010 who realised that it was not worth it to put so much effort in when it could be wiped out by a single lazy person who they could never identify in game because there was no linking of accounts. Losing committed players to that issue is a crying shame in my opinion, those are the type of people who create content and events. In other words, you can't. You just have anecdotal Bravo Sierra based on no actual randomized data set, no actual analysis, in point of fact you have nothing. By the way, I love your portrayal of the person who engineers a corp theft as lazy. Never mind they had to get into a position of trust to begin with. That means they probably did alot of work for the alliance before turning and stabbing it in the back. Well seeing as I have seen a few, yeah, I would call them lazy. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 62	Posted - 2016.07.30 19:07:20 - [523] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Then expect Eve to continue to decline, if you have a very strategic game with superb fleet comabt excellent ship types and all taht stuff and yet you drop back to the lack of account linking making it virtually impossible in game to work out who the new recruit is then you are pretty much creating a glass ceiling. The only people who can survive in that is small core groups who know each other well or big entities that can take the hit. the rest have to accept major hits again and again which often breaks them and at best feeds easy kills to entitled top feeders. Anyone with a brain can see thst this is a major issue for dynamic new players. Espionage and destabilization to ones opponent is part of any successful strategy. I think you are confusing tactics with strategy. What you think is a detriment tot he game is actually one of it's strongest points. You can affect your opponents in other ways than just the combat environment built into the game. This is what gives the game depth and reality. Yes, wardeccers and gankers are probably boring every new player and ( I hope not to many ) medium/long players to death. New long term strategy...annoy/bore your enemies until they quit their subscription.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5045	Posted - 2016.07.30 19:08:21 - [524] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: There are cumulative factors impacting Eve, this is just one of many. I saw people dropping out from 2010 who realised that it was not worth it to put so much effort in when it could be wiped out by a single lazy person who they could never identify in game because there was no linking of accounts. Losing committed players to that issue is a crying shame in my opinion, those are the type of people who create content and events. In other words, you can't. You just have anecdotal Bravo Sierra based on no actual randomized data set, no actual analysis, in point of fact you have nothing. By the way, I love your portrayal of the person who engineers a corp theft as lazy. Never mind they had to get into a position of trust to begin with. That means they probably did alot of work for the alliance before turning and stabbing it in the back. Well seeing as I have seen a few, yeah, I would call them lazy. Seen a few what? People do not get into a position of trust easily in this game....because of spies, scams and corp thefts. So it is the exact opposite of lazy...or they are BadGäó players who let people into a position of trust without first checking. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5045	Posted - 2016.07.30 19:09:30 - [525] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Then expect Eve to continue to decline, if you have a very strategic game with superb fleet comabt excellent ship types and all taht stuff and yet you drop back to the lack of account linking making it virtually impossible in game to work out who the new recruit is then you are pretty much creating a glass ceiling. The only people who can survive in that is small core groups who know each other well or big entities that can take the hit. the rest have to accept major hits again and again which often breaks them and at best feeds easy kills to entitled top feeders. Anyone with a brain can see thst this is a major issue for dynamic new players. Espionage and destabilization to ones opponent is part of any successful strategy. I think you are confusing tactics with strategy. What you think is a detriment tot he game is actually one of it's strongest points. You can affect your opponents in other ways than just the combat environment built into the game. This is what gives the game depth and reality. Yes, wardeccers and gankers are probably boring every new player and ( I hope not to many ) medium/long players to death. That is your choice though, isn't it. As I already noted these players now have a pretty clear method of playing the game. You can avoid them. That you choose not too is your problem, not anyone else's. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2020	Posted - 2016.07.30 19:09:44 - [526] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Then expect Eve to continue to decline, if you have a very strategic game with superb fleet comabt excellent ship types and all taht stuff and yet you drop back to the lack of account linking making it virtually impossible in game to work out who the new recruit is then you are pretty much creating a glass ceiling. The only people who can survive in that is small core groups who know each other well or big entities that can take the hit. the rest have to accept major hits again and again which often breaks them and at best feeds easy kills to entitled top feeders. Anyone with a brain can see thst this is a major issue for dynamic new players. Espionage and destabilization to ones opponent is part of any successful strategy. I think you are confusing tactics with strategy. What you think is a detriment to the game is actually one of it's strongest points. You can affect your opponents in other ways than just the combat environment built into the game. This is what gives the game depth and reality. Not at all, projecting your own ignorance on me, why do you guys always get insulting, I know the difference between tactics and strategy, this is baby stuff mate. The simple issue is that there is nothing in game to enable you to check someone out. How the hell can I find out that the nice helpful guy with a JF and multiple cyno alts is not a PL spy? I can't, the only way is to have something out of game like IP addresses and stuff like that. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 62	Posted - 2016.07.30 19:11:52 - [527] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Then expect Eve to continue to decline, if you have a very strategic game with superb fleet comabt excellent ship types and all taht stuff and yet you drop back to the lack of account linking making it virtually impossible in game to work out who the new recruit is then you are pretty much creating a glass ceiling. The only people who can survive in that is small core groups who know each other well or big entities that can take the hit. the rest have to accept major hits again and again which often breaks them and at best feeds easy kills to entitled top feeders. Anyone with a brain can see thst this is a major issue for dynamic new players. Espionage and destabilization to ones opponent is part of any successful strategy. I think you are confusing tactics with strategy. What you think is a detriment tot he game is actually one of it's strongest points. You can affect your opponents in other ways than just the combat environment built into the game. This is what gives the game depth and reality. Yes, wardeccers and gankers are probably boring every new player and ( I hope not to many ) medium/long players to death. That is your choice though, isn't it. As I already noted these players now have a pretty clear method of playing the game. You can avoid them. That you choose not too is your problem, not anyone else's. It's pretty normal you defend what gives you fun. But what gives you fun probably doesn't make the other players to have the same fun level. This brokes the toy (maybe, not sure obviously ) on the long run, being all equal on the financial partecipation to ccp life... Oh, if you think I have any interest for what you do or not you're totally wrong. I don't care if others are wardecced or ganked or if it happens to me or not. I've the luck to be very unsocial otherwise I would be much annoyed while play this game for what I saw so far. So even with my hisec char on the next wardec I will say goodbye to everyone and back to my npc corp with no problem at all...
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2020	Posted - 2016.07.30 19:12:05 - [528] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: There are cumulative factors impacting Eve, this is just one of many. I saw people dropping out from 2010 who realised that it was not worth it to put so much effort in when it could be wiped out by a single lazy person who they could never identify in game because there was no linking of accounts. Losing committed players to that issue is a crying shame in my opinion, those are the type of people who create content and events. In other words, you can't. You just have anecdotal Bravo Sierra based on no actual randomized data set, no actual analysis, in point of fact you have nothing. By the way, I love your portrayal of the person who engineers a corp theft as lazy. Never mind they had to get into a position of trust to begin with. That means they probably did alot of work for the alliance before turning and stabbing it in the back. Well seeing as I have seen a few, yeah, I would call them lazy. Seen a few what? People do not get into a position of trust easily in this game....because of spies, scams and corp thefts. So it is the exact opposite of lazy...or they are BadGäó players who let people into a position of trust without first checking. How can you check in game? It is easy to do, very very easy, I have done it. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2020	Posted - 2016.07.30 19:15:26 - [529] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Then expect Eve to continue to decline, if you have a very strategic game with superb fleet comabt excellent ship types and all taht stuff and yet you drop back to the lack of account linking making it virtually impossible in game to work out who the new recruit is then you are pretty much creating a glass ceiling. The only people who can survive in that is small core groups who know each other well or big entities that can take the hit. the rest have to accept major hits again and again which often breaks them and at best feeds easy kills to entitled top feeders. Anyone with a brain can see thst this is a major issue for dynamic new players. Espionage and destabilization to ones opponent is part of any successful strategy. I think you are confusing tactics with strategy. What you think is a detriment tot he game is actually one of it's strongest points. You can affect your opponents in other ways than just the combat environment built into the game. This is what gives the game depth and reality. Yes, wardeccers and gankers are probably boring every new player and ( I hope not to many ) medium/long players to death. New long term strategy...annoy/bore your enemies until they quit their subscription. The watch list changes made a big difference, that just needs to deelop in the minds of hisec players, unless you ahve really upset them, you are not going to be hunted, then it is a simple matter of finding an out of the way place to operate in and that's it. The only hunting they did with me was a lame attempt with a pretend noob that could not run a site so needed help, so I just played around with it for lol's. And they only went after me because the guy war decked me for something I posted so I just wound him up a little bit more. All during taht war dec I mined on one of my toons and was set up to kill a solo one. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 63	Posted - 2016.07.30 19:21:15 - [530] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Then expect Eve to continue to decline, if you have a very strategic game with superb fleet comabt excellent ship types and all taht stuff and yet you drop back to the lack of account linking making it virtually impossible in game to work out who the new recruit is then you are pretty much creating a glass ceiling. The only people who can survive in that is small core groups who know each other well or big entities that can take the hit. the rest have to accept major hits again and again which often breaks them and at best feeds easy kills to entitled top feeders. Anyone with a brain can see thst this is a major issue for dynamic new players. Espionage and destabilization to ones opponent is part of any successful strategy. I think you are confusing tactics with strategy. What you think is a detriment to the game is actually one of it's strongest points. You can affect your opponents in other ways than just the combat environment built into the game. This is what gives the game depth and reality. Not at all, projecting your own ignorance on me, why do you guys always get insulting, I know the difference between tactics and strategy, this is baby stuff mate. The simple issue is that there is nothing in game to enable you to check someone out. How the hell can I find out that the nice helpful guy with a JF and multiple cyno alts is not a PL spy? I can't, the only way is to have something out of game like IP addresses and stuff like that. LOL - insulting says the person who said I didn't have a brain because I hold a different opinion than they. Dracvlad wrote: Anyone with a brain can see thst [sic] this is a major issue for dynamic new players. Anyway, no, you may not be able to know if that person is another player's alt with any certainty or with any game provided mechanic. Why should this knowledge be freely available to you? This game is about risk and loss and reward and adventure and choices.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5045	Posted - 2016.07.30 19:21:22 - [531] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: It's pretty normal you defend what gives you fun. But what gives you fun probably doesn't make the other players to have the same fun level. This brokes the toy (maybe, not sure obviously ) on the long run, being all equal on the financial partecipation to ccp life... Oh, if you think I have any interest for what you do or not you're totally wrong. I don't care if others are wardecced or ganked or if it happens to me or not. I've the luck to be very unsocial otherwise I would be much annoyed while play this game for what I saw so far. So even with my hisec char on the next wardec I will say goodbye to everyone and back to my npc corp with no problem at all... Once again... You can easily avoid a war dec. Go to some back water system and do stuff there. Just avoid the trade hubs and the pipes connecting the trade hubs. Yes, it makes things a bit more difficult, but not impossible. You have 3 slots on your account use one for a trade hub alt in a noob or NPC corp. Use Red Frog Freight if you need to move stuff. In a week or 2 the dec will likely drop if you don't give them any kills. And you can still play the game, just be a bit more alert. In fact, using a trade hub alt and Red Frog (or a hauler alt if you can) will help minimize the incidence of war decs. If you are not seen in trade hubs and the pipes with your main....they probably won't war dec you. Or...quit. Leave. Go. Get out. If the above is still too much for you...this is not the type of game for you. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2020	Posted - 2016.07.30 19:26:27 - [532] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Then expect Eve to continue to decline, if you have a very strategic game with superb fleet comabt excellent ship types and all taht stuff and yet you drop back to the lack of account linking making it virtually impossible in game to work out who the new recruit is then you are pretty much creating a glass ceiling. The only people who can survive in that is small core groups who know each other well or big entities that can take the hit. the rest have to accept major hits again and again which often breaks them and at best feeds easy kills to entitled top feeders. Anyone with a brain can see thst this is a major issue for dynamic new players. Espionage and destabilization to ones opponent is part of any successful strategy. I think you are confusing tactics with strategy. What you think is a detriment to the game is actually one of it's strongest points. You can affect your opponents in other ways than just the combat environment built into the game. This is what gives the game depth and reality. Not at all, projecting your own ignorance on me, why do you guys always get insulting, I know the difference between tactics and strategy, this is baby stuff mate. The simple issue is that there is nothing in game to enable you to check someone out. How the hell can I find out that the nice helpful guy with a JF and multiple cyno alts is not a PL spy? I can't, the only way is to have something out of game like IP addresses and stuff like that. LOL - insulting says the person who said I didn't have a brain because I hold a different opinion than they. Dracvlad wrote: Anyone with a brain can see thst [sic] this is a major issue for dynamic new players. Anyway, no, you may not be able to know if that person is another player's alt with any certainty or with any game provided mechanic. Why should this knowledge be freely available to you? This game is about risk and loss and reward and adventure and choices. So have you created a major corp or big alliance and if not why not? Risk and reward is exactly what I am talking about, the risk is very high and it destroys the reward, the adventure is to have great fleet fights a campaign or two, not see all your caps stolen from your corp fleet hanger, so the choice is don't do it. Keep it small keep it tight. The ceiling of low expectations... PS That was a general comment on anyone with a brain can see it. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 64	Posted - 2016.07.30 19:26:57 - [533] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: You know your opinions are so all over the place that I just can't keep track. So I retract my statement saying you wanting to nerf wardecs. However the bolded part above again shows you just DO NOT GET EVE. Everyone plays by the same rules - there are no special groups in EvE which play by different fundamental rules. Gankers are, as soon as we started shooting their wrecks bang, wreck EHP went up. Did I say rules to force that, nope I just suggested that I did not care about 0.0 alliances being blanket war decked, which is why they got the price increased. The 0.0 dominated CSM did that mate. Gankers are not playing by different rules. Did the wreck EHP go up just for the anti-ganking players or just for transport ships? No it went up for all players and all ships. I know people that don't like to leave wrecks as warp in points or mission runners that shoot wrecks from ninja looters. This change came to them as well.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2020	Posted - 2016.07.30 19:28:37 - [534] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: You know your opinions are so all over the place that I just can't keep track. So I retract my statement saying you wanting to nerf wardecs. However the bolded part above again shows you just DO NOT GET EVE. Everyone plays by the same rules - there are no special groups in EvE which play by different fundamental rules. Gankers are, as soon as we started shooting their wrecks bang, wreck EHP went up. Did I say rules to force that, nope I just suggested that I did not care about 0.0 alliances being blanket war decked, which is why they got the price increased. The 0.0 dominated CSM did that mate. Gankers are not playing by different rules. Did the wreck EHP go up just for the anti-ganking players or just for transport ships? No it went up for all players and all ships. I know people that don't like to leave wrecks as warp in points or mission runners that shoot wrecks from ninja looters. This change came to them as well. As I said the change in itself was not wrong, the issue was how it happened and that CCP did not know their game well enough to see where and how it impacted it. Hisec is so far off their rader and taht of the CSM it is silly and that is my main issue. There is no representation from hisec, no one from AG has any contact with CCP. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5045	Posted - 2016.07.30 19:29:22 - [535] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: So have you created a major corp or big alliance and if not why not? Ahhh the "no true Scotsman" logical fallacy. Go Dracvlad, go! Your continued use of logical fallacies, passive aggressive insults, and shifting between topics will eventually carry the day! "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 64	Posted - 2016.07.30 19:33:08 - [536] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Anyway, no, you may not be able to know if that person is another player's alt with any certainty or with any game provided mechanic. Why should this knowledge be freely available to you? This game is about risk and loss and reward and adventure and choices. So have you created a major corp or big alliance and if not why not? Risk and reward is exactly what I am talking about, the risk is very high and it destroys the reward, the adventure is to have great fleet fights a campaign or two, not see all your caps stolen from your corp fleet hanger, so the choice is don't do it. Keep it small keep it tight. The ceiling of low expectations... PS That was a general comment on anyone with a brain can see it. So just a general insult to all that disagree with you. I have not created anything I would consider a "major" corp or big alliance. I have been involved with fairly sizeable corps and part of medium size alliances. I have dealt with corp theft and killing (revenge was sweet I'll tell ya). Also, just because someone has not done something to your arbitrary standards does not preclude them from having knowledge of the mechanics or understanding of the games ethos. What you do not seem to understand is that it just might be someone else's adventure to be that corp theft and infiltrator. Something the game is designed to provide and even advertises.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2020	Posted - 2016.07.30 19:34:41 - [537] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: So have you created a major corp or big alliance and if not why not? Ahhh the "no true Scotsman" logical fallacy. Go Dracvlad, go! Your continued use of logical fallacies, passive aggressive insults, and shifting between topics will eventually carry the day! Was I being aggressive, I was merely asking if he had done it and if so what stopped him? Seems like when I ask a simple question I am being all passive aggressive or something. I wanted to know if he had gone through this type of thing. That is the funny thing about you and others like you, you project your own feelings and actions on others. He is quite welcome to say no its too much work, that would be evading the question a bit because the work comes n different forms, such as drama management, do logistics, getting an SRP into place, security and verifying new players along with recruitment. Diplomacy and making sure your team is up to it. It is a lot of work. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2020	Posted - 2016.07.30 19:36:37 - [538] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Anyway, no, you may not be able to know if that person is another player's alt with any certainty or with any game provided mechanic. Why should this knowledge be freely available to you? This game is about risk and loss and reward and adventure and choices. So have you created a major corp or big alliance and if not why not? Risk and reward is exactly what I am talking about, the risk is very high and it destroys the reward, the adventure is to have great fleet fights a campaign or two, not see all your caps stolen from your corp fleet hanger, so the choice is don't do it. Keep it small keep it tight. The ceiling of low expectations... PS That was a general comment on anyone with a brain can see it. So just a general insult to all that disagree with you. I have not created anything I would consider a "major" corp or big alliance. I have been involved with fairly sizeable corps and part of medium size alliances. I have dealt with corp theft and killing (revenge was sweet I'll tell ya). Also, just because someone has not done something to your arbitrary standards does not preclude them from having knowledge of the mechanics or understanding of the games ethos. What you do not seem to understand is that it just might be someone else's adventure to be that corp theft and infiltrator. Something the game is designed to provide and even advertises. The revenge is always sweet, and good on you. Was I saying standards to you, I was asking a question. And have you thought that spying and scamming being so easy to do and so destructive could have an impact on people deciding not to bother doing all that work? When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5045	Posted - 2016.07.30 19:36:47 - [539] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Anyway, no, you may not be able to know if that person is another player's alt with any certainty or with any game provided mechanic. Why should this knowledge be freely available to you? This game is about risk and loss and reward and adventure and choices. So have you created a major corp or big alliance and if not why not? Risk and reward is exactly what I am talking about, the risk is very high and it destroys the reward, the adventure is to have great fleet fights a campaign or two, not see all your caps stolen from your corp fleet hanger, so the choice is don't do it. Keep it small keep it tight. The ceiling of low expectations... PS That was a general comment on anyone with a brain can see it. So just a general insult to all that disagree with you. I have not created anything I would consider a "major" corp or big alliance. I have been involved with fairly sizeable corps and part of medium size alliances. I have dealt with corp theft and killing (revenge was sweet I'll tell ya). Also, just because someone has not done something to your arbitrary standards does not preclude them from having knowledge of the mechanics or understanding of the games ethos. What you do not seem to understand is that it just might be someone else's adventure to be that corp theft and infiltrator. Something the game is designed to provide and even advertises. Yep, a general insult to anyone who disagrees...like a true passive aggressive weenie. And one solution to corp thefts is compartmentalization. Basically, do not put all your eggs in one basket. Now, if the argument were that CCP should do more to enable compartmentalization in corps and alliances, I'd agree. If you are to lazy to use that option and get wiped out...well you were lazy and paid the price. But no, instead we'll keep the less help mechanic and use a sledgehammer to make spying/corp thefts nearly impossible. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2020	Posted - 2016.07.30 19:40:16 - [540] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Anyway, no, you may not be able to know if that person is another player's alt with any certainty or with any game provided mechanic. Why should this knowledge be freely available to you? This game is about risk and loss and reward and adventure and choices. So have you created a major corp or big alliance and if not why not? Risk and reward is exactly what I am talking about, the risk is very high and it destroys the reward, the adventure is to have great fleet fights a campaign or two, not see all your caps stolen from your corp fleet hanger, so the choice is don't do it. Keep it small keep it tight. The ceiling of low expectations... PS That was a general comment on anyone with a brain can see it. So just a general insult to all that disagree with you. I have not created anything I would consider a "major" corp or big alliance. I have been involved with fairly sizeable corps and part of medium size alliances. I have dealt with corp theft and killing (revenge was sweet I'll tell ya). Also, just because someone has not done something to your arbitrary standards does not preclude them from having knowledge of the mechanics or understanding of the games ethos. What you do not seem to understand is that it just might be someone else's adventure to be that corp theft and infiltrator. Something the game is designed to provide and even advertises. Yep, a general insult to anyone who disagrees...like a true passive aggressive weenie. And one solution to corp thefts is compartmentalization. Basically, do not put all your eggs in one basket. Now, if the argument were that CCP should do more to enable compartmentalization in corps and alliances, I'd agree. If you are to lazy to use that option and get wiped out...well you were lazy and paid the price. But no, instead we'll keep the less help mechanic and use a sledgehammer to make spying/corp thefts nearly impossible. Weenie now, lol. Yes that works and I and others do that, but timing is everything in terms of this type of event, when things get real is when you start cutting corners, putting stuff so people can use it, taking risks with major assets, you know and that is what they are waiting for. But the issue still is that in game I have nothing to verify if that nice helpful JF pilot is not a PL player.... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 64	Posted - 2016.07.30 19:40:33 - [541] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: So have you created a major corp or big alliance and if not why not? Ahhh the "no true Scotsman" logical fallacy. Go Dracvlad, go! Your continued use of logical fallacies, passive aggressive insults, and shifting between topics will eventually carry the day! Was I being aggressive, I was merely asking if he had done it and if so what stopped him? Seems like when I ask a simple question I am being all passive aggressive or something. I wanted to know if he had gone through this type of thing. That is the funny thing about you and others like you, you project your own feelings and actions on others. He is quite welcome to say no its too much work, that would be evading the question a bit because the work comes n different forms, such as drama management, do logistics, getting an SRP into place, security and verifying new players along with recruitment. Diplomacy and making sure your team is up to it. It is a lot of work. Your simple question is passive aggressive - a tactic you routinely employ. So it is not just Teckos that sees it. I do like how you just assume that the reason given would be because of laziness. Something of which you seem to be keen of accusing people.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 64	Posted - 2016.07.30 19:42:27 - [542] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: *What you do not seem to understand is that it just might be someone else's adventure to be that corp theft and infiltrator. Something the game is designed to provide and even advertises.* The revenge is always sweet, and good on you. Was I saying standards to you, I was asking a question. And have you thought that spying and scamming being so easy to do and so destructive could have an impact on people deciding not to bother doing all that work? Read the bolded and italicized section again. This is where you will find your answer.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2020	Posted - 2016.07.30 19:45:52 - [543] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: So have you created a major corp or big alliance and if not why not? Ahhh the "no true Scotsman" logical fallacy. Go Dracvlad, go! Your continued use of logical fallacies, passive aggressive insults, and shifting between topics will eventually carry the day! Was I being aggressive, I was merely asking if he had done it and if so what stopped him? Seems like when I ask a simple question I am being all passive aggressive or something. I wanted to know if he had gone through this type of thing. That is the funny thing about you and others like you, you project your own feelings and actions on others. He is quite welcome to say no its too much work, that would be evading the question a bit because the work comes n different forms, such as drama management, do logistics, getting an SRP into place, security and verifying new players along with recruitment. Diplomacy and making sure your team is up to it. It is a lot of work. Your simple questions is passive aggressive - a tactic you routinely employ. So it is not just Teckos that sees it. I do like how you just assume that the reason given would be because of laziness. Something of which you seem to be keen of accusing people. That is what is so funny about debating with people like you, you porject your own approach onto others. If people are aggressive to me or troll me then I return it, if not I talk reasonable. If you want to define it as passive aggressive then feel free. I never assumed it was laziness, damn its a lot of work, did you notice drama at the start of the reasons, well that and the issue of spies and scammers was my reasons for giving up on it. In truth I rather enjoyed it up until I had a low sec pirate guy and a 0.0 FC going for it. Also I got to the point it was too much effort, so what you see is me projecting taht on you is me accepting my own weakness. I suppose taht is passive aggressive... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2020	Posted - 2016.07.30 19:46:38 - [544] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: *What you do not seem to understand is that it just might be someone else's adventure to be that corp theft and infiltrator. Something the game is designed to provide and even advertises.* The revenge is always sweet, and good on you. Was I saying standards to you, I was asking a question. And have you thought that spying and scamming being so easy to do and so destructive could have an impact on people deciding not to bother doing all that work? Read the bolded and italicized section again. This is where you will find your answer. Then CCP has to accept that people won't bother building stuff when it is so easy... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 65	Posted - 2016.07.30 20:04:28 - [545] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: *What you do not seem to understand is that it just might be someone else's adventure to be that corp theft and infiltrator. Something the game is designed to provide and even advertises.* The revenge is always sweet, and good on you. Was I saying standards to you, I was asking a question. And have you thought that spying and scamming being so easy to do and so destructive could have an impact on people deciding not to bother doing all that work? Read the bolded and italicized section again. This is where you will find your answer. Then CCP has to accept that people won't bother building stuff when it is so easy... They have - did you see the Causality video I linked? Also did you notice how much larger the "WRECK THER DREAMS" was than the "Build Your Dreams" at eveonline.com
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5047	Posted - 2016.07.30 20:08:57 - [546] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: And have you thought that spying and scamming being so easy to do and so destructive could have an impact on people deciding not to bother doing all that work? But people do, do that work. There are big alliances and there are people in positions of trust. So again, as a reason for the decline in players logged in, this could be a factor I suppose, but it does not fit with when the game was growing. This explanation (by itself) says the game should not grow. Now, here is one possible extension of your argument that would deal with the point I have raised (oh and I'm helping you because you are not nearly as smart as you think you are, which is truly ironic given you implying everyone else is brainless but you). New products go through a life cycle and surprisingly it is a similar life cycle across a wide variety of products. The way this life cycle is characterized mathematical is via the Bass Diffusion model. The Bass Diffusion model (BDM for short) is that of an 's-curve'. First we see an exponential growth in people purchasing/utilizing the new product, an inflection point, and the growth in customers become logarithmic (i.e. concave). So, suppose the rate at which Eve loses players for reasons is a constant rate with respect to time and the number of players [1]. The BDM and this constant rate of player attrition suggest that at some point Eve will go into decline because it cannot replace those who are leaving with those who are coming in. In this case, the number of players is going to go down. However, it is not tied to any specific reason. This would explain the initial growth and then the subsequent decline. The solution is to try and "reinvent" the product. Upgrade it in some manner so that it will be seen as a "new" product again and put things back on the exponential growth path again. However, while one might be tempted to say, "let's make Eve kinder and gentler!" That could be a risky strategy in that you might find your remaining customers quitting wholesale since it is not the original product they bought. [1] The loss of players would looks something like this: players leaving = -0.01(number of playerst) Note this is for illustrative purposes only. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2020	Posted - 2016.07.30 20:12:00 - [547] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: *What you do not seem to understand is that it just might be someone else's adventure to be that corp theft and infiltrator. Something the game is designed to provide and even advertises.* The revenge is always sweet, and good on you. Was I saying standards to you, I was asking a question. And have you thought that spying and scamming being so easy to do and so destructive could have an impact on people deciding not to bother doing all that work? Read the bolded and italicized section again. This is where you will find your answer. Then CCP has to accept that people won't bother building stuff when it is so easy... They have - did you see the Causality video I linked? Also did you notice how much larger the "WRECK THER DREAMS" was than the "Build Your Dreams" at eveonline.com Seen them, not going to watch it again, so question for you, PL guy uses alt then trashes him and I don't know who it was, can't really get my own back can I. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 65	Posted - 2016.07.30 20:12:09 - [548] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: So have you created a major corp or big alliance and if not why not? Ahhh the "no true Scotsman" logical fallacy. Go Dracvlad, go! Your continued use of logical fallacies, passive aggressive insults, and shifting between topics will eventually carry the day! Was I being aggressive, I was merely asking if he had done it and if so what stopped him? Seems like when I ask a simple question I am being all passive aggressive or something. I wanted to know if he had gone through this type of thing. That is the funny thing about you and others like you, you project your own feelings and actions on others. He is quite welcome to say no its too much work, that would be evading the question a bit because the work comes n different forms, such as drama management, do logistics, getting an SRP into place, security and verifying new players along with recruitment. Diplomacy and making sure your team is up to it. It is a lot of work. Your simple questions is passive aggressive - a tactic you routinely employ. So it is not just Teckos that sees it. I do like how you just assume that the reason given would be because of laziness. Something of which you seem to be keen of accusing people. That is what is so funny about debating with people like you, you porject your own approach onto others. If people are aggressive to me or troll me then I return it, if not I talk reasonable. If you want to define it as passive aggressive then feel free. I never assumed it was laziness, damn its a lot of work, did you notice drama at the start of the reasons, well that and the issue of spies and scammers was my reasons for giving up on it. In truth I rather enjoyed it up until I had a low sec pirate guy and a 0.0 FC going for it. Also I got to the point it was too much effort, so what you see as me projecting that on you, is actually me accepting my own weakness. I suppose that is passive aggressive... I would say I have been straight up aggressive to you. So I'm not sure what you think I am projecting. "He is quite welcome to say no its too much work" - You seem to be assuming that the answer is laziness or unwillingness to put forth the effort.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5048	Posted - 2016.07.30 20:15:53 - [549] - Quote And to be clear in my post above, the part where I say reasons is there to imply there is a list of reasons: 1. Grew bored with the game. 2. Real life. 3. Ganking. 4. Difficulty of the game. 5. Nerfs to a specific form of game play. 6. Finding a new game they like better. And probably several or even many more I have not thought off. The implication being that if you go out and fix, for example, 5 it will likely do nothing. Even if you did do it, those players who left might simply not come back. Because for many people it is probably not a single reason. It could have been 2, 5, and thus leading to 6--i.e. rolling back the nerf in 5 will likely not induce them back into the game. People trying to use the decline in players logged in as an argument to push for a specific change that benefits them in game....they are, IMO, completely dishonest or simply vanilla ignorant...or maybe some degrees of both. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 66	Posted - 2016.07.30 20:16:06 - [550] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Seen them, not going to watch it again, so question for you, PL guy uses alt then trashes him and I don't know who it was, can't really get my own back can I. No - you can not. That is one of the inherent risk of having anything in this game. If someone else wants it bad enough they will try to take it. Hopefully you can puzzle out who is responsible but that is not always possible. It is the essence of the game.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 66	Posted - 2016.07.30 20:20:01 - [551] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: New products go through a life cycle and surprisingly it is a similar life cycle across a wide variety of products. The way this life cycle is characterized mathematical is via the Bass Diffusion model. And now we have more corn ;)
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5048	Posted - 2016.07.30 20:25:41 - [552] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Seen them, not going to watch it again, so question for you, PL guy uses alt then trashes him and I don't know who it was, can't really get my own back can I. No - you can not. That is one of the inherent risk of having anything in this game. If someone else wants it bad enough they will try to take it. Hopefully you can puzzle out who is responsible but that is not always possible. It is the essence of the game. Yes, it is called uncertainty as opposed to risk. With risk you know what your are dealing with and can mitigate it. Uncertainty on the other hand is much harder to deal with. It has always been an inherent part of the game. For example, when Goons turned off BoB sovereignty that was awesome. And keep in mind at the time my alliance was part of the GBC. Yeah, it was annoying in that it was nearly impossible to fight, but there was fighting and I was part of it in my own small way, but still in the back of my head I knew I was playing a tiny role in something that would be big. Or when Goons screwed up their wallet when sov bills came due and dropped sov in key systems across their space and IT Alliance rushed in to take advantage. Awesome. I was unfortunately at work, but reading the write ups later on various discussion boards was quite entertaining (especially Manfred Sideous' write up about how Goons had a carrier response fleet up trailing the hostile invaders trying to knock out sov structures and finally they managed to catch that carrier fleet in a bubble...which really meant it was all over for Goons in Delve). "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Giaus Felix Hedion University Amarr Empire 168	Posted - 2016.07.30 21:14:21 - [553] - Quote Reading over this thread it appears that certain players want the status quo and mechanics to be changed to favor them, and them alone. I'll leave it to my fellow forum goers to fathom out which group those players belong to, I am Ralph's junk DNA.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5735	Posted - 2016.07.30 22:04:45 - [554] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: As the topic in general, as far as I know the entire MMO industry is suffering from a downturn in customers. CCP are not unique in seeing their player numbers drop, although the rather unique nature of Eve is what has allowed it to outlive many of it's "siblings" in the MMO "family". They are not unique, sure. But one thing is to lose half of your 13,000,000 playerbase, another is to halve your 60k online players. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 67	Posted - 2016.07.30 22:13:21 - [555] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: As the topic in general, as far as I know the entire MMO industry is suffering from a downturn in customers. CCP are not unique in seeing their player numbers drop, although the rather unique nature of Eve is what has allowed it to outlive many of it's "siblings" in the MMO "family". They are not unique, sure. But one thing is to lose half of your 13,000,000 playerbase, another is to halve your 60k online players. Assuming your statement is factual, it is still half on both sides. Revenue cut in half for both companies. The other company with a much larger subscriber base likely has a much higher cost basis as well - more customer service, more servers, more office space, more employees, more overhead. They certainly have a bigger marketing budget. The scale really has little to do with it. If CCP lost half and the other only a quarter then there might be something to be found.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5735	Posted - 2016.07.30 22:22:44 - [556] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Explain why Eve grew from 2003-2010 then. We had spying, scamming, corp thefts, all of it back then. In 2011 something happened. That something broke the camel's back. CCP took a sharp turn which alienated a lot of players. Real players revolts happened. Among the many things, about 60% of the 3rd party utility developers quit playing or stopped coding for EvE. Since then, a plethora of terrible changes have happened, players have been shown some CCP important people being blind and greedy and sometimes arrogant. There are many more things that would be worth mentioning, but nobody would care to hear them and, frankly, they have been debated to death. The fun thing is, markets always win, expecially when people have to find a reason to pay a subscription and every year that reason gets weaker. In the end swearing vs gankers or vs miners or vs 0.0ers is not going to save EvE. Facts could save EvE, but facts are a rare commodity in these days. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5735	Posted - 2016.07.30 22:35:41 - [557] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: As the topic in general, as far as I know the entire MMO industry is suffering from a downturn in customers. CCP are not unique in seeing their player numbers drop, although the rather unique nature of Eve is what has allowed it to outlive many of it's "siblings" in the MMO "family". They are not unique, sure. But one thing is to lose half of your 13,000,000 playerbase, another is to halve your 60k online players. The scale really has little to do with it. If CCP lost half and the other only a quarter then there might be something to be found. It has. It's not some random trend seeing corporations and banks doing their best to become multi-national and then global. Costs don't proportionally go up or down, plus there's always a baseline cost that requires profit to be above a certain thresold. In small companies all it takes is some economy event, some important lead developer, a serious hardware breakdown and troubles run deep and fast. Also, if you halven playerbase on a shard based architecture, you can merge servers and obtain a playable game, games made to be played with 5k players per server provide an healthy gameplay even with a large global players drop. On a single server game, instead, if you lose half players you don't have any way to keep it working () as good as before. () Working = providing a fun and immersive experience. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Judaa K'Marr Power-Hug Training Bootcamp 20	Posted - 2016.07.30 22:40:50 - [558] - Quote Overlayed average players graph + google trends graph for "MMO". http://i.imgur.com/83w8OnG.png Mostly the following-the-industry theory is right. EVE is basically a boat being lifted or falling with the MMO tide. The exception is in 2012-2014 when it breaks away from the trendline, and refuses to go with the MMO downtrend. At the start of 2016 the lines are almost touching again. 2012-2014 were the years when CCP was humbled by the Incarna fallout, gave up on over the top Jesus visions and worked on long forgotten issues.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 67	Posted - 2016.07.30 22:46:30 - [559] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: As the topic in general, as far as I know the entire MMO industry is suffering from a downturn in customers. CCP are not unique in seeing their player numbers drop, although the rather unique nature of Eve is what has allowed it to outlive many of it's "siblings" in the MMO "family". They are not unique, sure. But one thing is to lose half of your 13,000,000 playerbase, another is to halve your 60k online players. The scale really has little to do with it. If CCP lost half and the other only a quarter then there might be something to be found. It has. It's not some random trend seeing corporations and banks doing their best to become multi-national and then global. Costs don't proportionally go up or down, plus there's always a baseline cost that requires profit to be above a certain thresold. In small companies all it takes is some economy event, some important lead developer, a serious hardware breakdown and troubles run deep and fast. Also, if you halven playerbase on a shard based architecture, you can merge servers and obtain a playable game, games made to be played with 5k players per server provide an healthy gameplay even with a large global players drop. On a single server game, instead, if you lose half players you don't have any way to keep it working () as good as before. () Working = providing a fun and immersive experience. No - the smaller company often has lower costs. My company makes more net profit at X revenue than my main competitor at 5x revenue. Bigger is not always better and rarely more efficient in truth.
Judaa K'Marr Power-Hug Training Bootcamp 21	Posted - 2016.07.30 23:00:45 - [560] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: As the topic in general, as far as I know the entire MMO industry is suffering from a downturn in customers. CCP are not unique in seeing their player numbers drop, although the rather unique nature of Eve is what has allowed it to outlive many of it's "siblings" in the MMO "family". They are not unique, sure. But one thing is to lose half of your 13,000,000 playerbase, another is to halve your 60k online players. The scale really has little to do with it. If CCP lost half and the other only a quarter then there might be something to be found. Also, if you halven playerbase on a shard based architecture, you can merge servers and obtain a playable game, games made to be played with 5k players per server provide an healthy gameplay even with a large global players drop. On a single server game, instead, if you lose half players you don't have any way to keep it working (*) as good as before. Eve version of a server merge = making the map smaller. If they start deleting regions off the map, you know there's trouble. "The map is too big" is already a regular meme among some players.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14360	Posted - 2016.07.30 23:00:46 - [561] - Quote Judaa K'Marr wrote: Overlayed average players graph + google trends graph for "MMO". http://i.imgur.com/83w8OnG.png Mostly the following-the-industry theory is right. EVE is basically a boat being lifted or falling with the MMO tide. The exception is in 2012-2014 when it breaks away from the trendline, and refuses to go with the MMO downtrend. At the start of 2016 the lines are almost touching again. 2012-2014 were the years when CCP was humbled by the Incarna fallout, gave up on over the top Jesus visions and worked on long forgotten issues. Get out of here with your 'facts' and 'data'. This is GD, where we discuss our feelings!
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5048	Posted - 2016.07.31 07:02:19 - [562] - Quote Judaa K'Marr wrote: Overlayed average players graph + google trends graph for "MMO". http://i.imgur.com/83w8OnG.png Mostly the following-the-industry theory is right. EVE is basically a boat being lifted or falling with the MMO tide. The exception is in 2012-2014 when it breaks away from the trendline, and refuses to go with the MMO downtrend. At the start of 2016 the lines are almost touching again. 2012-2014 were the years when CCP was humbled by the Incarna fallout, gave up on over the top Jesus visions and worked on long forgotten issues. Hmmm interesting graph. Would love to see some sort of correlation measurement. Using say MMO trend as the explanatory variable and the CCP numbers as the dependent variable. Or a correlation coefficient. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5048	Posted - 2016.07.31 07:03:09 - [563] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Judaa K'Marr wrote: Overlayed average players graph + google trends graph for "MMO". http://i.imgur.com/83w8OnG.png Mostly the following-the-industry theory is right. EVE is basically a boat being lifted or falling with the MMO tide. The exception is in 2012-2014 when it breaks away from the trendline, and refuses to go with the MMO downtrend. At the start of 2016 the lines are almost touching again. 2012-2014 were the years when CCP was humbled by the Incarna fallout, gave up on over the top Jesus visions and worked on long forgotten issues. Get out of here with your 'facts' and 'data'. This is GD, where we discuss our feelings! I know! Who does he think he is. I think I should report him for his microaggressions! "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5736	Posted - 2016.07.31 07:40:55 - [564] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: No - the smaller company often has lower costs. My company makes more net profit at X revenue than my main competitor at 5x revenue. Bigger is not always better and rarely more efficient in truth. Max profit and efficiency are objectives, for large companies they are important but not as much as resiliency and economy of scale. Your small company gets quick to the maximum efficiency possible to it, large ones can go beyond that. In example they can fire those pesky western workers, close down the USA and Europe factories and hire some zillions slaves in Far East. Just look at something like Apple: head is in the USA, labor with its massive costs, logistics and workers is in China. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 14076	Posted - 2016.07.31 07:55:42 - [565] - Quote To the one who posted the graph with logged in numer comparison with MMO trend. There is misproportion with "EVE Online" trend. Its really without this peak. I think these were more active years for players that were already subscribed. If these were alts or different humans, cant be really said. Also please note Star Citizen trend. Its rising. Not stable, rising. While space simulator trends are stable. So I think games like SC and EVE should be rather vieved and marketed as genres in itself. Combining MMO, simulators, strategic, space. Space Opera games. All those people who were so negative about CCP trying to develop more sim-y nature of EVE, they may have been wrong all the time. Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò Where is Angry CONCORD guy when you need him.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2041	Posted - 2016.07.31 08:17:09 - [566] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: [quote=Dracvlad] Removed for space: In this case, the number of players is going to go down. However, it is not tied to any specific reason. This would explain the initial growth and then the subsequent decline. The solution is to try and "reinvent" the product. Upgrade it in some manner so that it will be seen as a "new" product again and put things back on the exponential growth path again. However, while one might be tempted to say, "let's make Eve kinder and gentler!" That could be a risky strategy in that you might find your remaining customers quitting wholesale since it is not the original product they bought. Kinder and gentler for you, but for me less unbalanced in that it is kind and gentle for gankers for example. What you are ignoring is the significant loss of hisec miners who ran one or two accounts in the period that mining ships all had the tank of a wet paper bag and destroyer DPS was increased. At that point there were plenty of new players, but they lost a core group. I am very aware of what you talk about, I read a very good book called jumping the curve number of years back. In any case Eve has started to adjust towards being more accommodating to casual play. One example is the 3 hour vulnerability of medium Citadels, which people are already moaning about, well you want to attack it get tough and stay up to 03:00 AM, but enables casual players to have the damn things, sad that CCP made them pretty useless without even a limited market. CCP also adjusted their sov system to work in the TZ's that the alliance is most active. These are important, because they have to enable people to play the game in a more casual manner. But the old guard resist this like mad. There are so many things going for Eve, I could start listing all the good things about Eve, but there is an issue, certain people such as the Ganker Community Manager have continued to alienate their customers by ignoring the imbalance of certain mechanics and even changing something that was deemed an exploit and letting them do it. There is a perception that part of CCP is linked to those players and actively supports them and makes it too easy for them. I could detail all the mechanics and stuff that makes it a cake walk for them, but that said Ganker Community Manager will just come in and have the thread closed. There is a negative perception of Eve in the gaming world and it goes way back, when I was looking for a game to play in 2009 I spoke to one of my PBEM players and asked and he had played Eve and just stopped, he told me that it was interesting and deep but ruined by a toxic player base, so I asked him for more details so he said the mechanics and rules made it easy for people to be dicks. So I was interested because for me its all about testing youself. But the core thing about testing yourself is doing it in a game where you have the remotest chance of being able to compete and over the years I realised that there was many aspects of Eve which you could not compete in. For example during that period of mining ships had the tank of a wet paper bag and destroyer DPS had been buffed, I never mined a single asteroid. That was a simple decision, I recognised that the game balance was rubbish, when I had started i came across a number of hisec miners, I was still in touch with them even though I had moved in game to NPC 0.0. During that period every single one stopped playing Eve. I went on the forums and tried to draw this to the attention of CCP, which was when I first started posting on games mechanics, And I then came across the immensely toxic forum players. All those players who left had an attitude against CCP. When I came across freighter pilots that had been bumped for hours, none of them were raging at the gankers, they were raging at CCP for their rubbish mechanics, same as those mining players who left the game. I was sitting there thinking oh no here we go again... Now back to the current situation, I sold my heap of junk called a Charon, to me it is just worthless, because the only way I could defend it and its goods was to have a webber, a scout and a couple of suicide gankers to kill the blackbird that would point it so a Macherial could get on it. I don't have 5 accounts, furthermore because of the ease of spying and the like I keep my corp only with people that I know and most of them no longer play. So what I am doing is making it difficult for people to get at me, but in doing that removing game play. But the perception that is most important is that all these things like ganking, spying, scamming etc. are stupidly easy, but impossible to stop. Which is why the issue over wreck EHP is so important, the GCM (Ganker Community Manager) did not have a hand in it, however it was the imbalanced CSM which is the players representative which has no one that represents hisec, and the player concerned was a 0.0 alliance player whose corp made most of their kills and ISK by hisec ganking. CCP with their attitude to hisec did not realise that they were being had here in that the AG was starting to blow up wrecks, they completely missed the reality of that game balance and destroyed emergent gameplay. This is where I have an issue with CCP and many other players do. But most of all I have come to the conclusion that this game has a group of players at the top of the game who feed off of the low level and medium level players in a too easy to do manner. People in the main are not stupid and that perception is evidently also hurting CCP. Now people want to avoid such people and that is why we have people who play Elite Dangerous on their own instance, which is why I will have the PvP bar set to 0 on Star Citizen and why Eve has so few people logging in, because less players is less content. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2042	Posted - 2016.07.31 09:41:14 - [567] - Quote Let me continue something important: Lets compare ganking in hisec to 0.0 roams, both are doing PvP: The 0.0 roamers have to jump multiple gates, find systems that have activity, they have to catch someone to get a fight and often they will go for hours not finding something. They have to bait people take risk to get an engagement etc., its hard work and takes effort and waiting and patience and they often have to entice out people who have yet another roam in their space and are already fed up with yet another AFK cloaky camper. The hisec ganker, he has targets galore, all he has to do is have a scout to spot one with something juicy then he gets a Macherial to bump it, perhaps he will have to use a suicide blackbird, then they bump that off the gate, this is happening with a number of different targets which are stacked up. All the ganker has to wait for is his 15 minute timer to end, jump in a easy to get away high DPS ship hit the freighter, in comes a noob ship, DTS and freighter and he uses the noob ship to go suspect and scoops the loot in to the DTS where the freighter pilot scoops it into the freighter. They stack up targets for the period they are active. So in effect easy kills against effort in hunting, no consequences in loss, just cheap ships they expect to loose, guaranteed loot scooping and there you go. Simple easy play that rewards lazy use of game mechanics. And people have realised it... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 683	Posted - 2016.07.31 10:22:29 - [568] - Quote TL;DR - Eve forums are now apparently a platform to self publish books.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5737	Posted - 2016.07.31 10:23:55 - [569] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: All those people who were so negative about CCP trying to develop more sim-y nature of EVE, they may have been wrong all the time. That's why I am a strong supporter of more "sim-y-ness" in EvE. I am rather lay about games, I can see the good and the bad in them. I have seen some recent sci-fi game turning its tables and implementing EvE-alike mission agents, standings and so on. EvE could look for good idea around from the others as well. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Tipa Riot Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 2721	Posted - 2016.07.31 11:12:09 - [570] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: (...) by a toxic player base Yeah, I can clearly see the toxic player base in this thread. They are led by players like you. I'm my own NPC alt.
Bumblefck Kerensky Initiatives 12674	Posted - 2016.07.31 12:34:16 - [571] - Quote Thread title wrote: Every year, there are less users playing, why?? *fewer Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi . Bumble's Space Log
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26473	Posted - 2016.07.31 12:46:37 - [572] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: TL;DR - Eve forums are now apparently a platform to self publish self aggrandising and poorly written conspiracy fiction. FTFY Come back Dinsdale, almost all is forgiven. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2044	Posted - 2016.07.31 12:58:33 - [573] - Quote Tipa Riot wrote: Dracvlad wrote: (...) by a toxic player base Yeah, I can clearly see the toxic player base in this thread. They are led by players like you. Oh I am deeply wounded to the core of my being, not... That is what he said in 2009, talk about shooting the messenger. I have met some great people in Eve and continue to meet great people, but on the forums, it is kinda sad, they tell me I am passive aggresive, link gifs calling me an idiot, say that I said I am an expert in something which I never said, tell me I want 100% safe hisec which I don't, that is pretty toxic. And one even attempts to stalk me.... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26473	Posted - 2016.07.31 13:17:36 - [574] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: they tell me I am passive aggresive You are. Quote: link gifs calling me an idiot Subjectively, they're not wrong. Quote: say that I said I am an expert in something which I never said Learn to read. Quote: tell me I want 100% safe hisec which I don't You certainly appear to want it to be safer for those that can't be bothered to actually play the game or learn the mechanics. Quote: And one even attempts to stalk me.... Pointing out that around 80% of what you post is either wrong, opinion, or just downright bollocks is not stalking, it's a public service. Feeling persecuted much? Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2044	Posted - 2016.07.31 13:19:54 - [575] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Feeling persecuted much? Hiya my little stalker, still upset on being called out on your total lack of PvP kills. Oh hold on still have that funny one where you threatened me with putting a freighter in my way so I can gank it... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26473	Posted - 2016.07.31 13:23:20 - [576] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Feeling persecuted much? Hiya my little stalker, still upset on being called out on your total lack of PvP kills. Yep, I'm so upset about it that I openly admit to having exactly zero PvP kills If you feel that I'm stalking you, which is a crime, please feel free to report it to CCP and your local police station. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2044	Posted - 2016.07.31 13:25:13 - [577] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Feeling persecuted much? Hiya my little stalker, still upset on being called out on your total lack of PvP kills. Yep, I'm so upset about it that I openly admit to having exactly zero PvP kills If you feel that I'm stalking you, which is a crime, please feel free to report it to CCP and your local police station. You are so obsessed its kinda cute. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26473	Posted - 2016.07.31 13:27:49 - [578] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Feeling persecuted much? Hiya my little stalker, still upset on being called out on your total lack of PvP kills. Yep, I'm so upset about it that I openly admit to having exactly zero PvP kills If you feel that I'm stalking you, which is a crime, please feel free to report it to CCP and your local police station. You are so obsessed its kinda cute. You're delusional my friend, seek help. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2044	Posted - 2016.07.31 13:30:13 - [579] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Feeling persecuted much? Hiya my little stalker, still upset on being called out on your total lack of PvP kills. Yep, I'm so upset about it that I openly admit to having exactly zero PvP kills If you feel that I'm stalking you, which is a crime, please feel free to report it to CCP and your local police station. You are so obsessed its kinda cute. You're delusional my friend, seek help. Thank you for proving it yet again... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5048	Posted - 2016.07.31 19:36:10 - [580] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: removed giant wall of text Apparently you did not quite comprehend my point. Making Eve more fitting with casual play is also a nerf to other play styles. Which can cause people to leave the game. As I noted, it is a very risky move in that may very well induce players who wanted the Eve we have/had to just leaving and there is absolutely no assurance that the new exponential growth path will be like the initial one. In fact, there is reason to believe otherwise. Eve has a long history of being rough and harsh, a kinder-gentler Eve may not pull in nearly as many players as you think while driving out those formerly loyal customers. And at the same time this move towards "favoring more casual play" (WTF does that even mean?) is one that will destroy the game. Oh not necessarily in the servers go cold, but destroy the game most of use came here to play. I did not come here to play candy crush, I came here to play Eve. When I jump through a gate I want there to be some element of uncertainty to that action (not risk, BTW, but uncertainty). Quote: Now back to the current situation, I sold my heap of junk called a Charon, to me it is just worthless, because the only way I could defend it and its goods was to have a webber, a scout and a couple of suicide gankers to kill the blackbird that would point it so a Macherial could get on it. I don't have 5 accounts, furthermore because of the ease of spying and the like I keep my corp only with people that I know and most of them no longer play. And apparently you don't have 5 friends in game either. I'll also note you are wildly exaggerating the effects of suicide gankers. I have managed just fine with a scout alt account. I have the scout jump in, look around, and then send the big guy through if clear, if not dock up and watch Netflix, something on Amazon, go do something to reduce wife aggro, etc. I mean, yeah if you are insistent on trying to get through when CODE. or some other ganking group is active...it will require more effort. But for the love of God you are trying to move a ship worth over a billion ISK full of valuable cargo...unprotected? Really? There is a word for that, it is called imprudent. When you are imprudent you can suffer the consequences from time-to-time. Quote: So what I am doing is making it difficult for people to get at me, but in doing that removing game play. There is a difference between you doing that and CCP doing it. CCP doing it means it is removed for EVERYONE and there is no more choice, even if they are bad choices. You doing it only affects you and is a marginal impact on those who would otherwise gank you. It is typical of people to reason like this. "Well it is good for me, so it must be good for everyone." Not for the gankers. And guess what they are paying customers too. Further, what makes sense at the individual level can often look stupid at the macro/aggregate level. For example, rushing to your bank when it is in a state of illiquidity and yanking your money out. Rational at the individual level, but when everyone does it, you have a bank run which can take a sound yet illiquid bank and drive it out of business and possibly threatening everyone's money.* Quote: But the perception that is most important is that all these things like ganking, spying, scamming etc. are stupidly easy, but impossible to stop. Really, I've never been ganked. It is called being prudent. It may not stop it 100% of the time, but it will reduce it. And if your goal is to reduce it 100% then that may come at tremendous cost, like a significant chunk of the remaining players logging in. You are complaining about things that CCP and many of us see as features, not bugs.** I have also not been scammed. I look at all those "too good to be true" offers and think...too good to be true most likely a scam. Especially if it involves another player. And while I have not run a corporation or an alliance, I'd argue that it is the same thing. Being prudent. Do not put all alliance assets in the reach of a single player. Really it is an old, old addage...well three actually. 1. Don't put all your eggs in one basket (lots of gank victims fail this one). 2. Don't put the fox in charge of guarding the hen house (people who fall for corp thefts fail this one). 3. If it is too good to be true, it probably is (people who fall for scammers fail this one). If you fall for all 3....God help you, both in game and IRL. In fact, if you haven't learned these and you learn them here in game...well consider it a good and valuable lesson before learning it with RL money and assets. Like for example the foolish employees at Enron who put all of their 401k holdings into Enron stock. They got greedy and when the company collapsed they lost it all, their jobs, their retirements, everything...but they were imprudent. They were foolish. Yes is bad for them, but they were also greedy. Note there is significant difference between an insolvent bank and one that is merely illiquid. *And no, I have never engaged in corp theft or spying against my corp or alliance, nor do I intend to. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Doc Fury Furious Enterprises 8476	Posted - 2016.07.31 19:47:47 - [581] - Quote Meine Augen! Walls of text! In before someone starts bitching about AFK cloaky campers on top of everything else. Gÿ+ The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper: 'Hodor'.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2045	Posted - 2016.07.31 19:49:24 - [582] - Quote Eve seems to be kind and friendly to gankers. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5048	Posted - 2016.07.31 20:08:38 - [583] - Quote Doc Fury wrote: Meine Augen! Walls of text! In before someone starts bitching about AFK cloaky campers on top of everything else. Too late. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 512	Posted - 2016.07.31 20:10:42 - [584] - Quote I'll just leave this here. Campers gonna Camp
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5048	Posted - 2016.07.31 20:10:47 - [585] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Eve seems to be kind and friendly to gankers. They always lose their ships whenever they gank. Yeah, it may "look easy" but they put in quite a bit of effort and know the game's mechanics. So we are to penalize them for that effort and human capital? Sounds like a plan to retain players. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5048	Posted - 2016.07.31 20:11:36 - [586] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: I'll just leave this here. Campers gonna Camp Oh God....Dictateur Imperato you poor soul.... "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2045	Posted - 2016.07.31 20:32:51 - [587] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Eve seems to be kind and friendly to gankers. They always lose their ships whenever they gank. Yeah, it may "look easy" but they put in quite a bit of effort and know the game's mechanics. So we are to penalize them for that effort and human capital? Sounds like a plan to retain players. Yeah a Catalyst, sometimes a Stealth Bomber or a Brutix or a Talos not a huge deal when it comes to the vast profits they make. But that is often down to stupid people carrying too much cargo. Catalysts went out of favour because AG was bumping the freighter out of optimal so they now largely use SB's. They are well organised, well funded but it is not exactly difficult. The issue is the lack of consequences, they lose a ship which they know they are going to lose, they have 15 minutes of criminal timer and a penalty on their security status which matters not as they are already -10. Its a pretty weak consequence. What some people have suggested and I agree with is to simply add an inability to dock in NPC hisec stations. Does that sound really that bad when they have looted so many freighters carrying Citadels which they have already seeded along most of the ganking routes. Seriously? A Medium Citadel costs 700m big deal for them no! Next up is the loot scooping as I said the AG players had some alts that did that, they don't have any income like the gankers and what they gank on is net account, simple as. People are not going to gank 15,000 EHP on low skill alts with just a loss leader. That was the issue with the EHP, it was put above their ability to do it, perhaps if CCP had not cut it off as it was just happening those players might have got into it enough to train up what they needed, but they did not have a chance too. If CCP could re-look at this taking into account game balance I would be happy, perhaps drop it down a bit so its at the level of two cruisers. And then after a while put it back up to 15,000 EHP. So now we get to the loot scooping, oh dear I can kill a noob ship, they place a DST next to the wreck and of course a freighter, then the noob ship scoops directly into the DST, the freighter pilot takes it into his hold. The noob ship is the only one to go suspect. Total loot security for low risk. So if we cannot blap the wreck for reasons perhaps CCP could look at this aspect and adjust it. Again is this so unreasonable. Bumping, its a point without applying aggro, about as low risk PvP that you can get, at least CCP is looking to change it so they have to point the freighter with a noob ship every three minutes, wow tats going to hurt a lot. But I will see how this goes, at least they will have to move a bit quicker could mean that AG catch a few more on gates and some gankers will have to fund another account or two like Mr Chicken. In any case we have to accept this approach as being reasonable that after 3 minutes the freighter will go into warp unless it is pointed. I am happy about this because it add just a bit more effort on their side. They will not be able to keep someone there for hours which was my main issue. That is what t I am suggesting, but those suggestions are destroying ganking and making it impossible, LOL, seriously? When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2045	Posted - 2016.07.31 20:58:01 - [588] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: I'll just leave this here. Campers gonna Camp I know the law, it does exist, I think it is however hot air I don't reckon he has the money to fund it. For a start he chose to play Eve and subject himself to its pleasures, he can just stop if it annoys him that much. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26483	Posted - 2016.07.31 21:19:20 - [589] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: They always lose their ships whenever they gank. [sarcasm] Accepting a consequence as a cost of doing business means that it isn't a consequence. [/sarcasm] Quote: Yeah, it may "look easy" but they put in quite a bit of effort and know the game's mechanics. So we are to penalize them for that effort and human capital? Sounds like a plan to retain players. I think the general idea is to make team work less effective at overcoming the efforts of an individual... Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Giovanni erkelens2 rock shot industries Phoenix Company Alliance 44	Posted - 2016.07.31 21:24:43 - [590] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Eve seems to be kind and friendly to gankers. They always lose their ships whenever they gank. Yeah, it may "look easy" but they put in quite a bit of effort and know the game's mechanics. So we are to penalize them for that effort and human capital? Sounds like a plan to retain players. Yeah a Catalyst, sometimes a Stealth Bomber or a Brutix or a Talos not a huge deal when it comes to the vast profits they make. But that is often down to stupid people carrying too much cargo. Catalysts went out of favour because AG was bumping the freighter out of optimal so they now largely use SB's. They are well organised, well funded but it is not exactly difficult. The issue is the lack of consequences, they lose a ship which they know they are going to lose, they have 15 minutes of criminal timer and a penalty on their security status which matters not as they are already -10. Its a pretty weak consequence. What some people have suggested and I agree with is to simply add an inability to dock in NPC hisec stations. Does that sound really that bad when they have looted so many freighters carrying Citadels which they have already seeded along most of the ganking routes. Seriously? A Medium Citadel costs 700m big deal for them no! Next up is the loot scooping as I said the AG players had some alts that did that, they don't have any income like the gankers and what they gank on is net account, simple as. People are not going to gank 15,000 EHP on low skill alts with just a loss leader. That was the issue with the EHP, it was put above their ability to do it, perhaps if CCP had not cut it off as it was just happening those players might have got into it enough to train up what they needed, but they did not have a chance too. If CCP could re-look at this taking into account game balance I would be happy, perhaps drop it down a bit so its at the level of two cruisers. And then after a while put it back up to 15,000 EHP. So now we get to the loot scooping, oh dear I can kill a noob ship, they place a DST next to the wreck and of course a freighter, then the noob ship scoops directly into the DST, the freighter pilot takes it into his hold. The noob ship is the only one to go suspect. Total loot security for low risk. So if we cannot blap the wreck for reasons perhaps CCP could look at this aspect and adjust it. Again is this so unreasonable. Bumping, its a point without applying aggro, about as low risk PvP that you can get, at least CCP is looking to change it so they have to point the freighter with a noob ship every three minutes, wow thats going to hurt a lot. But I will see how this goes, at least they will have to move a bit quicker could mean that AG catch a few more on gates and some gankers will have to fund another account or two like Mr Chicken. In any case we have to accept this approach as being reasonable that after 3 minutes the freighter will go into warp unless it is pointed. I am happy about this because it add just a bit more effort on their side. They will not be able to keep someone there for hours which was my main issue. That is what t I am suggesting, but those suggestions are destroying ganking and making it impossible, LOL, seriously? While im not a fan of the idea of Access restriction for HS stations, i have to agree on the part of loot scooping, its More of an exploit than an actual gameplay element. And should be, as much as i like it, removed, cuz it disables the non ganking party's change to get loot/retaliation. Killing a noobship or a frig isnt as much statisfying as killing the enemy looter with the loot in their Bay.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5051	Posted - 2016.07.31 21:34:12 - [591] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: snipped Again whose fault is it that they make huge profits? Let me see, a guy does something imprudent and foolish...other players who know the mechanics, and have put forth considerable effort to take advantage of that foolishness and imprudence....and we blame those who imposed a cost on that foolishness and imprudence. Yep, that is totally reasonable. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5051	Posted - 2016.07.31 21:36:24 - [592] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: They always lose their ships whenever they gank. [sarcasm] Accepting a consequence as a cost of doing business means that it isn't a consequence. [/sarcasm] Quote: Yeah, it may "look easy" but they put in quite a bit of effort and know the game's mechanics. So we are to penalize them for that effort and human capital? Sounds like a plan to retain players. I think the general idea is to make team work less effective at overcoming the efforts of an individual... Yeah, because the work of 50-80 people should not count more than the work of one dope who overloaded his freighter and went through one of the most hostile systems to overloaded freighters in the game. Yep...that is some awesome game design right. Go ahead be a complete fecking idiot and CCP will make things better for you. Dracvlad should run for CSM, his platform can be: Lets make Eve stupid. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5051	Posted - 2016.07.31 21:52:31 - [593] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: The issue is the lack of consequences, they lose a ship which they know they are going to lose, they have 15 minutes of criminal timer and a penalty on their security status which matters not as they are already -10. Its a pretty weak consequence. What some people have suggested and I agree with is to simply add an inability to dock in NPC hisec stations. Does that sound really that bad when they have looted so many freighters carrying Citadels which they have already seeded along most of the ganking routes. Seriously? A Medium Citadel costs 700m big deal for them no! This is just so stupid. The reason it is stupid is that there are two parts to this so called problem. On one hand we have a group of players, for the sake of brevity lets just use CODE. as a place holder, that, 1. Know the game mechanics. 2. Have innovated and set up an alliance and logistics frame work dedicated for ganking freighters (lets ignore the ganking of miners) 3. Accept the costs of their actions. First off 3 does not imply there is no cost. That is just vanilla stupid and anyone suggesting it is vanilla stupid. I have to pay my electric bill or not get electricity. My acceptance of this fact does not somehow magically make my electric bill zero or not a cost I have to pay. Same is true if I accept losing a ship in game for an action I want to pursue. Second, freighter ganking is also made possible by the actions of those who use freighters imprudently and foolishly. If there was nobody being imprudent and foolish freighter ganking would be extremely minimal. Most likely down to NS alliances shooting "hostile" freighters to gimp their enemies HS logistics and/or ransom requests. So this notion is that the one side has learned how to manage their risk and at the same profit form it is therefore all their fault is like blaming someone for getting good at some other aspect of the game. You have figured out a way to make higher profits at invention than other players...why your game should be nerfed. You are being unfair to those who have not figured out what you have figured out. You are stealing some of their profits! Further, those who get ganked are not only imprudent (overloading their freighter) but also foolish. They are foolish because the benefit they get from doing this is actually very small. Even if they were going to go and get 15% return on their 8 billion cargo, that is only 1.2 billion yet they are risking well over 9 billion in assets. The downside risk is substantial relative to only a small upside....especially if ganking is as ubiquitous as Dracvlad and others he would have us believe. If ganking is a high probability scourge in HS, then these players are just down right vanilla stupid. Contrarily Dracvald has argued that no, these players are not dumb. Somehow they are not dumb for doing something with little upside but tremendous downside. How Dracvlad squares this circle I don't know. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5051	Posted - 2016.07.31 21:57:16 - [594] - Quote BTW, everyone in game, implicitly accepts the costs of their actions once they undock. Dracvlad's objection is just irrelevant nonsense. Because using his logic, then nobody should complain irrespective of what they lose because once they undock they have implicitly accepted the costs of losing that ship. Rule #1 in Eve: Do not fly what you cannot afford to lose. But not anymore, here come's Dracvlad to change that. Go ahead and do what would have normally been considered sheer stupidity. We should make the game better for BadsGäó....errr casual plaers. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26486	Posted - 2016.07.31 23:14:45 - [595] - Quote ^^ When stupidity is allowed to breed it becomes the norm; Mike Judge made an entertaining film based on that premise, it's called Idiocracy. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Dibz Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 92	Posted - 2016.07.31 23:28:02 - [596] - Quote Fewer users playing
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 690	Posted - 2016.07.31 23:28:49 - [597] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Eve seems to be kind and friendly to gankers. Eve is friendly to many play styles.
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 514	Posted - 2016.07.31 23:48:37 - [598] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: ^^ When stupidity is allowed to breed it becomes the norm; Mike Judge made an entertaining film based on that premise, it's called Idiocracy. Oh, it's supposed to be "entertaining"? I thought it was a documentary.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26488	Posted - 2016.07.31 23:54:06 - [599] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: ^^ When stupidity is allowed to breed it becomes the norm; Mike Judge made an entertaining film based on that premise, it's called Idiocracy. Oh, it's supposed to be "entertaining"? I thought it was a documentary. It's certainly turning into one Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Chewytowel Haklar Flerris Crueler Corporation 229	Posted - 2016.08.01 00:04:52 - [600] - Quote It could be also because you guys are really intelligent and most people in the world have to make due with far less intelligence then you nerds exhibit. Just a thought. So please could you all just be dumber from now on? Just do stupid things and lose your ships and make new players think they are good at the game. Lose your corporations to wannabe spies and let them steal everything and act surprised. Help them all succeed and achieve their wildest dreams. Even with all that I bet they'd still leave and claim they beat the game and there was nothing left to do.
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 517	Posted - 2016.08.01 00:10:55 - [601] - Quote I did something really stupid yesterday! And it was fun too LOOOL ^^^ This guy is on to something here
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 693	Posted - 2016.08.01 00:22:21 - [602] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: I did something really stupid yesterday! And it was fun too LOOOL ^^^ This guy is on to something here I practice lowest common denominator every day of my life.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7861	Posted - 2016.08.01 03:30:24 - [603] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Let me continue something important: Lets compare ganking in hisec to 0.0 roams, both are doing PvP: The 0.0 roamers have to jump multiple gates, find systems that have activity, they have to catch someone to get a fight and often they will go for hours not finding something. They have to bait people take risk to get an engagement etc., its hard work and takes effort and waiting and patience and they often have to entice out people who have yet another roam in their space and are already fed up with yet another AFK cloaky camper. The hisec ganker, he has targets galore, all he has to do is have a scout to spot one with something juicy then he gets a Macherial to bump it, perhaps he will have to use a suicide blackbird, then they bump that off the gate, this is happening with a number of different targets which are stacked up. All the ganker has to wait for is his 15 minute timer to end, jump in a easy to get away high DPS ship hit the freighter, in comes a noob ship, DTS and freighter and he uses the noob ship to go suspect and scoops the loot in to the DTS where the freighter pilot scoops it into the freighter. They stack up targets for the period they are active. In 0.0 any loot has to be defended by holding the field and looting it before you are attacked, sometimes you have to bring in ships to scoop the loot over long distances. But in hisec your loot is protected by CONCORD and a 15,000 EHP that was put in to stop it being ganked by AG players. So in effect easy kills against effort in hunting, no consequences in loss, just cheap ships they expect to loose, guaranteed loot scooping and there you go. Simple easy play that rewards lazy use of game mechanics. And people have realised it... Indeed. I skilled up at the worst times, like the great malaise of 2014 for example, in hope for a better day, and some pipe dream about real live events (like from the Dropbear era) coming back. The entire sphere of sci-fi and the dystopic feel of the game is gone. Exploration was a thing. Finding something in the nothingness of space. Now it's just min-max content for the usual spergers. Now I don't care any more. That Eve Source book used to have it's own place on the shelf. It's headed for the thrift store on the next run. Oh well. I'll remember the better days though. How my hands shook engaging a Sansha mothership in a real live event after chasing it, the confusion and panic around that, and FC0RD's great FCs holding it together. I don't even see these people any more. I remember how a system would look empty and you had to probe it to find some great rewards. AG has kept me in the game longer actually, but seeing how fast we can get nerfed, what's the point? Screw it. Glad I never got around to putting that Eve sticker on my car. Would be feeling stupid if I had. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5054	Posted - 2016.08.01 05:04:18 - [604] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Indeed. I skilled up at the worst times, like the great malaise of 2014 for example, in hope for a better day, and some pipe dream about real live events (like from the Dropbear era) coming back. The entire sphere of sci-fi and the dystopic feel of the game is gone. I'm sorry, but what? A dystopic feel in a game with no war decks and no ganking....I'm not sure that was the word you intended to use there. Quote: Exploration was a thing. Finding something in the nothingness of space. Now it's just min-max content for the usual spergers. Now I don't care any more. That Eve Source book used to have it's own place on the shelf. It's headed for the thrift store on the next run. Oh well. I'll remember the better days though. How my hands shook engaging a Sansha mothership in a real live event after chasing it, the confusion and panic around that, and FC0RD's great FCs holding it together. I don't even see these people any more. I remember how a system would look empty and you had to probe it to find some great rewards. AG has kept me in the game longer actually, but seeing how fast we can get nerfed, what's the point? Screw it. Glad I never got around to putting that Eve sticker on my car. Would be feeling stupid if I had. Can I have your stuff? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Detshni Caldari Provisions Caldari State 16	Posted - 2016.08.01 05:13:02 - [605] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Well, so much for safe high sec then... You will see this game staying EVE for eternity, and with small playerbase. Ok, this sounds good to me. Why do we need all the extra players in a Multiplayer game that want it to be a solo game anyway? You want these extra players, because these extra players are "costumers." If you only got people left in the game that ONLY want to blow stuff up because nowhere is safe anymore, well sheesh, I can't start to even explain to you how dumb that is. Hahaha, that is great material for a stund up show right there. To give it to you so you understand: The community would self implode, and I do believe that is exactly what is happening at this very moment. Think minecraft. I think it is about time that the game evolved. Because if CCP doesn't have the balls to let it do that, it can burn down to ashes for all I care.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17748	Posted - 2016.08.01 06:16:11 - [606] - Quote Detshni wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Well, so much for safe high sec then... You will see this game staying EVE for eternity, and with small playerbase. Ok, this sounds good to me. Why do we need all the extra players in a Multiplayer game that want it to be a solo game anyway? You want these extra players, because these extra players are "costumers." If you only got people left in the game that ONLY want to blow stuff up because nowhere is safe anymore, well sheesh, I can't start to even explain to you how dumb that is. Hahaha, that is great material for a stund up show right there. To give it to you so you understand: The community would self implode, and I do believe that is exactly what is happening at this very moment. Think minecraft. I think it is about time that the game evolved. Because if CCP doesn't have the balls to let it do that, it can burn down to ashes for all I care. Fun fact. As the game has become safer the rate of growth has declined.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 67	Posted - 2016.08.01 06:31:46 - [607] - Quote Detshni wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Well, so much for safe high sec then... You will see this game staying EVE for eternity, and with small playerbase. Ok, this sounds good to me. Why do we need all the extra players in a Multiplayer game that want it to be a solo game anyway? You want these extra players, because these extra players are "costumers." If you only got people left in the game that ONLY want to blow stuff up because nowhere is safe anymore, well sheesh, I can't start to even explain to you how dumb that is. Hahaha, that is great material for a stund up show right there. To give it to you so you understand: The community would self implode, and I do believe that is exactly what is happening at this very moment. Think minecraft. I think it is about time that the game evolved. Because if CCP doesn't have the balls to let it do that, it can burn down to ashes for all I care. "nowhere is safe anymore" Nowhere has ever been 100% safe because that is how the game was designed. There are multiple games out there that cater to what you call "costumers." Why is it not okay that this one caters to something different? I've tried several other MMO's. I even enjoyed a few for the graphics, immersion and even the guided storyline where I got to be the hero. Those games are great, they have their place and their audience. I do not ask those companies to change their game to be more like EVE. EVE is not that type of game, and I think that is ok.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5054	Posted - 2016.08.01 07:14:00 - [608] - Quote Detshni wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Well, so much for safe high sec then... You will see this game staying EVE for eternity, and with small playerbase. Ok, this sounds good to me. Why do we need all the extra players in a Multiplayer game that want it to be a solo game anyway? You want these extra players, because these extra players are "costumers." If you only got people left in the game that ONLY want to blow stuff up because nowhere is safe anymore, well sheesh, I can't start to even explain to you how dumb that is. Hahaha, that is great material for a stund up show right there. To give it to you so you understand: The community would self implode, and I do believe that is exactly what is happening at this very moment. Think minecraft. I think it is about time that the game evolved. Because if CCP doesn't have the balls to let it do that, it can burn down to ashes for all I care. Or you could...you know...learn how to avoid being blown up by other players instead of having CCP make it farmville online. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
NotTheSmartestCookie New Order Logistics CODE. 149	Posted - 2016.08.01 08:29:17 - [609] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Indeed. I skilled up at the worst times, like the great malaise of 2014 for example, in hope for a better day, and some pipe dream about real live events (like from the Dropbear era) coming back. The entire sphere of sci-fi and the dystopic feel of the game is gone. ...snip... AG has kept me in the game longer actually, but seeing how fast we can get nerfed, what's the point? Screw it. Glad I never got around to putting that Eve sticker on my car. Would be feeling stupid if I had. Wants a dystopion sci-fi setting Complains about CODE. I guess you don't have a strong need for internal consistency. If I want to roleplay I always imagine myself dispensing justice in a Judge-Dread-like fashion vs rapacious mining companies and their lick-spittle henchmen. Invariably these mining cartels are guilty of a combination of the following: 1> wholesale environmental destruction, 2> tax/permit evasion and 3> using illegal AI to run their operations. Small wonder it always feels good to be in CODE. Making New Eden a better place 8 rounds of Void at a time. Funny, smartest, pretty and relevant. Pick 3. Proud shareholder in Halaima MinerBumping
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 67	Posted - 2016.08.01 08:50:15 - [610] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Detshni wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Well, so much for safe high sec then... You will see this game staying EVE for eternity, and with small playerbase. Ok, this sounds good to me. Why do we need all the extra players in a Multiplayer game that want it to be a solo game anyway? You want these extra players, because these extra players are "costumers." If you only got people left in the game that ONLY want to blow stuff up because nowhere is safe anymore, well sheesh, I can't start to even explain to you how dumb that is. Hahaha, that is great material for a stund up show right there. To give it to you so you understand: The community would self implode, and I do believe that is exactly what is happening at this very moment. Think minecraft. I think it is about time that the game evolved. Because if CCP doesn't have the balls to let it do that, it can burn down to ashes for all I care. Or you could...you know...learn how to avoid being blown up by other players instead of having CCP make it farmville online. Farmville online....this is becoming ridicolous... Gankers/wardeccers has plenty of places to go here in Eve online if they want to do (real) Pvp, from Factional Warfare to Wormholes, to exploration to nullsec.... A ton of places and opportunities to do Pvp. The truth is that it's much more convenient to stay in hisec waiting for preys at the trading hubs or using cheap ships and gaining a huge amount of isks by it. Eve is already incredibly challenging/hard/cruel everywhere, don't be ridiculous about farmville online.. Farmville online it's gankers/ardeccers playing it now..it's so clear. It's Gankville/Wardecville here....
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 67	Posted - 2016.08.01 09:09:43 - [611] - Quote NotTheSmartestCookie wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Indeed. I skilled up at the worst times, like the great malaise of 2014 for example, in hope for a better day, and some pipe dream about real live events (like from the Dropbear era) coming back. The entire sphere of sci-fi and the dystopic feel of the game is gone. ...snip... AG has kept me in the game longer actually, but seeing how fast we can get nerfed, what's the point? Screw it. Glad I never got around to putting that Eve sticker on my car. Would be feeling stupid if I had. Wants a dystopion sci-fi setting Complains about CODE. I guess you don't have a strong need for internal consistency. If I want to roleplay I always imagine myself dispensing justice in a Judge-Dread-like fashion vs rapacious mining companies and their lick-spittle henchmen. Invariably these mining cartels are guilty of a combination of the following: 1> wholesale environmental destruction, 2> tax/permit evasion and 3> using illegal AI to run their operations. Small wonder it always feels good to be in CODE. I would be curious to see how much you gain every month in term of isks to see who's rapacious...Judge-Dread.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5054	Posted - 2016.08.01 09:10:17 - [612] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Detshni wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Well, so much for safe high sec then... You will see this game staying EVE for eternity, and with small playerbase. Ok, this sounds good to me. Why do we need all the extra players in a Multiplayer game that want it to be a solo game anyway? You want these extra players, because these extra players are "costumers." If you only got people left in the game that ONLY want to blow stuff up because nowhere is safe anymore, well sheesh, I can't start to even explain to you how dumb that is. Hahaha, that is great material for a stund up show right there. To give it to you so you understand: The community would self implode, and I do believe that is exactly what is happening at this very moment. Think minecraft. I think it is about time that the game evolved. Because if CCP doesn't have the balls to let it do that, it can burn down to ashes for all I care. Or you could...you know...learn how to avoid being blown up by other players instead of having CCP make it farmville online. Farmville online....this is becoming ridicolous... Gankers/wardeccers has plenty of places to go here in Eve online if they want to do (real) Pvp, from Factional Warfare to Wormholes, to exploration to nullsec.... A ton of places and opportunities to do Pvp. The truth is that it's much more convenient to stay in hisec waiting for preys at the trading hubs or using cheap ships and gaining a huge amount of isks by it. Eve is already incredibly challenging/hard/cruel everywhere, don't be ridiculous about farmville online.. Farmville online it's gankers/ardeccers playing it now..it's so clear. It's Gankville/Wardecville here.... Or HS. No part of the Eve universe was ever intended to be 100% safe. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5054	Posted - 2016.08.01 09:13:33 - [613] - Quote Quote: So again with this topic coming up, I have to ask the super simple question that I ask many of our players who are unhappy with highsec ganking: In a sandbox game that's designed purely around player interaction, cause and effect, action and reaction, why should the game provide you with a 100% safe option, and why should there be a position in EVE where you're isolated from interaction with other players?--CCP Falcon "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 67	Posted - 2016.08.01 09:16:17 - [614] - Quote That sentence is becoming the ever-green exxcuse to justify this ganking/wardec mechanics, too easy. I would love to have CCP removing some fit slots on every mining/hauling ship and integrate warp core stabs and a much stronger EHP on ships. Just to force gankers to use 4/5 ships for the ganking. No one complains for organized multi/ship ganking even in hisec, as no one complains if he lose expensive/big ships in wormhole or nullsec to small gangs/fleet. It's something acceptable for anyone. Free one ship ganking is totally different.....and the excuse for it is always the same "hisec not 100% sure"...
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 67	Posted - 2016.08.01 09:17:37 - [615] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Quote: So again with this topic coming up, I have to ask the super simple question that I ask many of our players who are unhappy with highsec ganking: In a sandbox game that's designed purely around player interaction, cause and effect, action and reaction, why should the game provide you with a 100% safe option, and why should there be a position in EVE where you're isolated from interaction with other players?--CCP Falcon What CCP Falcon said is not true, because no one asked a 100% safe option.
Geronimo McVain McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc 158	Posted - 2016.08.01 09:23:00 - [616] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: That sentence is becoming the ever-green exxcuse to justify this ganking/wardec mechanics, too easy. I would love to have CCP removing some fit slots on every mining/hauling ship and integrate warp core stabs and a much stronger EHP on ships. That's not really the problem. If you do your math you can kill any ship with almost 100% success rate. It must become unreliable so that you may, and just may, get away with less effort and on other occasions you will fail even with a lot more effort. Give E-War bonusses to freighters and industrials for burst jammers and target breakers.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17750	Posted - 2016.08.01 09:29:48 - [617] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Detshni wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Well, so much for safe high sec then... You will see this game staying EVE for eternity, and with small playerbase. Ok, this sounds good to me. Why do we need all the extra players in a Multiplayer game that want it to be a solo game anyway? You want these extra players, because these extra players are "costumers." If you only got people left in the game that ONLY want to blow stuff up because nowhere is safe anymore, well sheesh, I can't start to even explain to you how dumb that is. Hahaha, that is great material for a stund up show right there. To give it to you so you understand: The community would self implode, and I do believe that is exactly what is happening at this very moment. Think minecraft. I think it is about time that the game evolved. Because if CCP doesn't have the balls to let it do that, it can burn down to ashes for all I care. Or you could...you know...learn how to avoid being blown up by other players instead of having CCP make it farmville online. Farmville online....this is becoming ridicolous... Gankers/wardeccers has plenty of places to go here in Eve online if they want to do (real) Pvp, from Factional Warfare to Wormholes, to exploration to nullsec.... A ton of places and opportunities to do Pvp. The truth is that it's much more convenient to stay in hisec waiting for preys at the trading hubs or using cheap ships and gaining a huge amount of isks by it. Eve is already incredibly challenging/hard/cruel everywhere, don't be ridiculous about farmville online.. Farmville online it's gankers/ardeccers playing it now..it's so clear. It's Gankville/Wardecville here.... Pirates go where the trade lanes are, their content does not exist outside of highsec.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26491	Posted - 2016.08.01 09:30:43 - [618] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: That sentence is becoming the ever-green exxcuse to justify this ganking/wardec mechanics, too easy. Being able to ruin somebodies day is one of the cornerstones of Eve, hisec is not exempt from that cornerstone and CCP Falcons statement reflects it. Quote: I would love to have CCP removing some fit slots on every mining/hauling ship and integrate warp core stabs and a much stronger EHP on ships. Just to force gankers to use 4/5 ships for the ganking. Alternatively people could choose to fit their ships properly and/or use the advantages inherent to working with others to their advantage; fun fact, several of the T1 haulers can shrug off multiple attackers as can some of the mining ships. Quote: No one complains for organized multi/ship ganking even in hisec, as no one complains if he lose expensive/big ships in wormhole or nullsec to small gangs/fleet. It's something acceptable for anyone. Free one ship ganking is totally different.....and the excuse for it is always the same "hisec not 100% sure"... If you get ganked by a single ship, there's a 99.9% chance that you've done something stupid. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 67	Posted - 2016.08.01 09:34:57 - [619] - Quote "Being able to ruin somebodies day is one of the cornerstones of Eve, hisec is not exempt from that cornerstone and CCP Falcons statement reflects it." Maybe if you make it very easy for players that love to ruin somebodies day so they can do it on a industrial scale the result is that you have less users playing.... maybe...
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17750	Posted - 2016.08.01 09:38:37 - [620] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: "Being able to ruin somebodies day is one of the cornerstones of Eve, hisec is not exempt from that cornerstone and CCP Falcons statement reflects it." Maybe if you make it very easy for players that love to ruin somebodies day so they can do it on a industrial scale the result is that you have less users playing.... maybe... EVE was growing at its fastest rate back when ganking was much much easier.
March rabbit Mosquito Squadron The-Culture 1838	Posted - 2016.08.01 09:40:35 - [621] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Fun fact. As the game has become safer the rate of growth has declined. ... EVE was growing at its fastest rate back when ganking was much much easier. Is it correlation or coincidence? for example in past: - there was not fozzie-fatique - there was no t3ds - exploration was different - there was not 'c00l new icons' - ... The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 67	Posted - 2016.08.01 09:49:11 - [622] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: "Being able to ruin somebodies day is one of the cornerstones of Eve, hisec is not exempt from that cornerstone and CCP Falcons statement reflects it." Maybe if you make it very easy for players that love to ruin somebodies day so they can do it on a industrial scale the result is that you have less users playing.... maybe... EVE was growing at its fastest rate back when ganking was much much easier. If it's true they should make some new event where Concord decides to go on strike for several months.... let's see subscriptions explode to the fastest growing rate ever!
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17750	Posted - 2016.08.01 09:57:11 - [623] - Quote March rabbit wrote: baltec1 wrote: Fun fact. As the game has become safer the rate of growth has declined. ... EVE was growing at its fastest rate back when ganking was much much easier. Is it correlation or coincidence? for example in past: - there was not fozzie-fatique - there was no t3ds - exploration was different - there was not 'c00l new icons' - ... Doesn't really matter. Ganking does not negatively impact sub numbers.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26491	Posted - 2016.08.01 10:07:09 - [624] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: "Being able to ruin somebodies day is one of the cornerstones of Eve, hisec is not exempt from that cornerstone and CCP Falcons statement reflects it." Maybe if you make it very easy for players that love to ruin somebodies day so they can do it on a industrial scale the result is that you have less users playing.... maybe... Hisec is mechanically safer than it ever has been, if you don't do something daft. Suicide ganking has never been more labour intensive and expensive, war has never offered such a poor return on investment; the only reason that there is any risk left in hisec is that the people who provide it have adapted to each and every change that sought to curtail their activities. Can flipping is gone. Awoxing is for all intents and purposes gone as it can be simply avoided by flipping a "switch" The safety catch was implemented to stop people accidentally flagging themselves for Concordokken. Concord response times have been buffed, as have their ships. Crimewatch 2.0 simplified the confusing maze that used to be hisec aggression mechanics, and allows anybody to shoot a suspect. Mining ships have been changed to offer choice. Haulers have been changed to offer choice. Insurance has been removed from ships used to gank. War has never been more expensive or hard to prosecute. Suicide ganking is now an expensive and labour intensive activity. TL;DR You're safer than you have ever been. God help you if Helicity shows up and organises another epic event to show you how unsafe it can be with a big wallet and a concerted effort by hundreds of players. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Giovanni erkelens2 rock shot industries Phoenix Company Alliance 44	Posted - 2016.08.01 10:15:13 - [625] - Quote NotTheSmartestCookie wrote: If I want to roleplay I always imagine myself dispensing justice in a Judge-Dread-like fashion vs rapacious mining companies and their lick-spittle henchmen. Invariably these mining cartels are guilty of a combination of the following: 1> wholesale environmental destruction, 2> tax/permit evasion and 3> using illegal AI to run their operations. Small wonder it always feels good to be in CODE. 1: wholesale environmental destruction, lol, dude, really ? 2: thats what player corporations are for, to benefit their ceo and members, with or without taxes, nobody is forced to pay taxes, neither it is mandatory, as for permits, they werent there in the first place, its just something you tools made up, nobody should be forced to purchase something from a third party to make optimal use of a primary gameplay element. 3: at least something relevant comes out of you, on this i agree, using Bots to mine non stop, or doing whatever else in that case is unfair to everyone, and creates unfair competition.
Giovanni erkelens2 rock shot industries Phoenix Company Alliance 44	Posted - 2016.08.01 10:20:35 - [626] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: "Being able to ruin somebodies day is one of the cornerstones of Eve, hisec is not exempt from that cornerstone and CCP Falcons statement reflects it." Maybe if you make it very easy for players that love to ruin somebodies day so they can do it on a industrial scale the result is that you have less users playing.... maybe... Hisec is mechanically safer than it ever has been, if you don't do something daft. Suicide ganking has never been more labour intensive and expensive, war has never offered such a poor return on investment; the only reason that there is any risk left in hisec is that the people who provide it have adapted to each and every change that sought to curtail their activities. Can flipping is gone. Awoxing is for all intents and purposes gone as it can be simply avoided by flipping a "switch" The safety catch was implemented to stop people accidentally flagging themselves for Concordokken. Concord response times have been buffed, as have their ships. Crimewatch 2.0 simplified the confusing maze that used to be hisec aggression mechanics, and allows anybody to shoot a suspect. Mining ships have been changed to offer choice. Haulers have been changed to offer choice. Insurance has been removed from ships used to gank. War has never been more expensive or hard to prosecute. Suicide ganking is now an expensive and labour intensive activity. TL;DR You're safer than you have ever been. God help you if Helicity shows up and organises another epic event to show you how unsafe it can be with a big wallet and a concerted effort by hundreds of players. suicide ganking isnt expensive, nor it is labour intensive, unless you target big frieghters, but even then its simple and doesnt require much more effort than steering a ship and pressing a button. as for solo ganking, all u do is to sit in some spot, wait for a target to come in, and press a button and poof, done. target gone. awoxing isnt gone, only for corp hopping awoxers, awoxing corps can still do whatever they want.
NotTheSmartestCookie New Order Logistics CODE. 149	Posted - 2016.08.01 10:31:30 - [627] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: That sentence is becoming the ever-green exxcuse to justify this ganking/wardec mechanics, too easy. I would love to have CCP removing some fit slots on every mining/hauling ship and integrate warp core stabs and a much stronger EHP on ships. Just to force gankers to use 4/5 ships for the ganking. No one complains for organized multi/ship ganking even in hisec, as no one complains if he lose expensive/big ships in wormhole or nullsec to small gangs/fleet. It's something acceptable for anyone. Free one ship ganking is totally different.....and the excuse for it is always the same "hisec not 100% sure"... An extra-EHP mining barge, I guess we could call it a Procurer. A quick view on the forum will show you that there is an extra-ordinary amount of whining not only about barges/exhumers being ganked, but also about multi-ship ganking vs freighters. An analysis of the killmails will show that most of the victims did not take advantage of the various buffs offered by CCP, but still fit for max yield or hauling capacity. Note however that the whiners don't call for better fitting tutorials, but just for more buffs for miners and nerfs to gankers. In any case CCP has already announced another round of buffs for mining barges (details pending). Unfortunately this seems to have thrown the miner-whine-train into overdrive. Making New Eden a better place 8 rounds of Void at a time. Funny, smartest, pretty and relevant. Pick 3. Proud shareholder in Halaima MinerBumping
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2053	Posted - 2016.08.01 10:36:42 - [628] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: "Being able to ruin somebodies day is one of the cornerstones of Eve, hisec is not exempt from that cornerstone and CCP Falcons statement reflects it." Maybe if you make it very easy for players that love to ruin somebodies day so they can do it on a industrial scale the result is that you have less users playing.... maybe... And that is the point. You certainly understand the issue which CCP fails to understand. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26491	Posted - 2016.08.01 10:41:30 - [629] - Quote Giovanni erkelens2 wrote: suicide ganking isnt expensive, nor it is labour intensive, So why is it pretty much the sole reserve of groups who can call upon large numbers of players and a large wallet in order to be able to do so? Quote: unless you target big frieghters, but even then its simple and doesnt require much more effort than steering a ship and pressing a button. It looks easy because the people who do it are good at it, practice makes perfect and all that. Quote: as for solo ganking, all u do is to sit in some spot, wait for a target to come in, and press a button and poof, done. target gone. Go try it, while it's certainly possible afk pods and frigates is pretty much all you'll kill solo, and it'll likely cost you more than you make from it unless you get an afk idiot carrying PLEX or skill injectors, and the loot fairy smiles upon you. Quote: awoxing isnt gone, only for corp hopping awoxers, awoxing corps can still do whatever they want. lol, nope, go and join a corp with the switch set to no corp aggression, and try to disrupt their operations; Concord shows up and kills your arse, which turns it into suicide ganking. So yeah it's gone, at least in hisec. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17751	Posted - 2016.08.01 10:41:54 - [630] - Quote Giovanni erkelens2 wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: "Being able to ruin somebodies day is one of the cornerstones of Eve, hisec is not exempt from that cornerstone and CCP Falcons statement reflects it." Maybe if you make it very easy for players that love to ruin somebodies day so they can do it on a industrial scale the result is that you have less users playing.... maybe... Hisec is mechanically safer than it ever has been, if you don't do something daft. Suicide ganking has never been more labour intensive and expensive, war has never offered such a poor return on investment; the only reason that there is any risk left in hisec is that the people who provide it have adapted to each and every change that sought to curtail their activities. Can flipping is gone. Awoxing is for all intents and purposes gone as it can be simply avoided by flipping a "switch" The safety catch was implemented to stop people accidentally flagging themselves for Concordokken. Concord response times have been buffed, as have their ships. Crimewatch 2.0 simplified the confusing maze that used to be hisec aggression mechanics, and allows anybody to shoot a suspect. Mining ships have been changed to offer choice. Haulers have been changed to offer choice. Insurance has been removed from ships used to gank. War has never been more expensive or hard to prosecute. Suicide ganking is now an expensive and labour intensive activity. TL;DR You're safer than you have ever been. God help you if Helicity shows up and organises another epic event to show you how unsafe it can be with a big wallet and a concerted effort by hundreds of players. suicide ganking isnt expensive, nor it is labour intensive, unless you target big frieghters, but even then its simple and doesnt require much more effort than steering a ship and pressing a button. as for solo ganking, all u do is to sit in some spot, wait for a target to come in, and press a button and poof, done. target gone. awoxing isnt gone, only for corp hopping awoxers, awoxing corps can still do whatever they want. Your post just screams "opinion made on zero experience or knowledge".
Giovanni erkelens2 rock shot industries Phoenix Company Alliance 46	Posted - 2016.08.01 10:53:51 - [631] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Giovanni erkelens2 wrote: suicide ganking isnt expensive, nor it is labour intensive, So why is it pretty much the sole reserve of groups who can call upon large numbers of players and a large wallet in order to be able to do so? Quote: unless you target big frieghters, but even then its simple and doesnt require much more effort than steering a ship and pressing a button. It looks easy because the people who do it are good at it, practice makes perfect and all that. Quote: as for solo ganking, all u do is to sit in some spot, wait for a target to come in, and press a button and poof, done. target gone. Go try it, while it's certainly possible afk pods and frigates is pretty much all you'll kill solo, and it'll likely cost you more than you make from it unless you get an afk idiot carrying PLEX or skill injectors, and the loot fairy smiles upon you. Quote: awoxing isnt gone, only for corp hopping awoxers, awoxing corps can still do whatever they want. Try joining a corp with the switch set to no corp aggression and disrupting their operations; Concord shows up and kills your arse, which turns it into suicide ganking. So yeah it's gone, at least in hisec. they call upon players with large wallets because they are able and prepared to loose an expensive ship and buy a new one, not that catalysts or thrashers are very expensive, but talosses and nado's are solo ganking, ive done it alot, still do it, all i do is sit at some spot in jita, either at the main station or the instawarp station, or in a gate in niarja, all i do is scan ships, and press F1 if i find something thats worth my loss of ship and secstat, and then loot it with my alt. not very difficult. just select ur targets carefully. awoxing, like i said, is nerfed in high sec for corporation hopping awoxers, thus people who keep joining corps to kill someone in there. awoxing as a corp masquerading as a missionrunning/hauling/mining corp is easy in HS, cuz there you can control the switch yourself, and thus prevent being affected by the consequences corp hopping awoxers would likely face. ganking in groups is indeed a bit more difficult cuz u need coordination, but its still fairly simple button pushing, only thing that really requires skill is being the FC of the group, and being the freighter bumper. that requires some real skills, but DPSing is easy.
Giovanni erkelens2 rock shot industries Phoenix Company Alliance 46	Posted - 2016.08.01 10:55:08 - [632] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Giovanni erkelens2 wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: "Being able to ruin somebodies day is one of the cornerstones of Eve, hisec is not exempt from that cornerstone and CCP Falcons statement reflects it." Maybe if you make it very easy for players that love to ruin somebodies day so they can do it on a industrial scale the result is that you have less users playing.... maybe... Hisec is mechanically safer than it ever has been, if you don't do something daft. Suicide ganking has never been more labour intensive and expensive, war has never offered such a poor return on investment; the only reason that there is any risk left in hisec is that the people who provide it have adapted to each and every change that sought to curtail their activities. Can flipping is gone. Awoxing is for all intents and purposes gone as it can be simply avoided by flipping a "switch" The safety catch was implemented to stop people accidentally flagging themselves for Concordokken. Concord response times have been buffed, as have their ships. Crimewatch 2.0 simplified the confusing maze that used to be hisec aggression mechanics, and allows anybody to shoot a suspect. Mining ships have been changed to offer choice. Haulers have been changed to offer choice. Insurance has been removed from ships used to gank. War has never been more expensive or hard to prosecute. Suicide ganking is now an expensive and labour intensive activity. TL;DR You're safer than you have ever been. God help you if Helicity shows up and organises another epic event to show you how unsafe it can be with a big wallet and a concerted effort by hundreds of players. suicide ganking isnt expensive, nor it is labour intensive, unless you target big frieghters, but even then its simple and doesnt require much more effort than steering a ship and pressing a button. as for solo ganking, all u do is to sit in some spot, wait for a target to come in, and press a button and poof, done. target gone. awoxing isnt gone, only for corp hopping awoxers, awoxing corps can still do whatever they want. Your post just screams "opinion made on zero experience or knowledge". i could explain to you why im not experienced and why i know stuff, but you would likely ignore that, so ill just say, go and look up my killboard, ull see why im not as dimwitted as you think.
March rabbit Mosquito Squadron The-Culture 1838	Posted - 2016.08.01 11:04:15 - [633] - Quote baltec1 wrote: March rabbit wrote: baltec1 wrote: Fun fact. As the game has become safer the rate of growth has declined. ... EVE was growing at its fastest rate back when ganking was much much easier. Is it correlation or coincidence? for example in past: - there was not fozzie-fatique - there was no t3ds - exploration was different - there was not 'c00l new icons' - ... Doesn't really matter. Ganking does not negatively impact sub numbers. And again. Where are proofs? One could say that ganking negatively impacts sub numbers and other factors hide it by positively impact these. So when there is less these 'other factors' ganking becomes major factor and sub numbers start to decrease. The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26491	Posted - 2016.08.01 11:14:21 - [634] - Quote Giovanni erkelens2 wrote: they call upon players with large wallets because they are able and prepared to loose an expensive ship and buy a new one, not that catalysts or thrashers are very expensive, but talosses and nado's are Try reading what I wrote and try again. Quote: solo ganking, ive done it alot, still do it, all i do is sit at some spot in jita, either at the main station or the instawarp station, or in a gate in niarja, all i do is scan ships, and press F1 if i find something thats worth my loss of ship and secstat, and then loot it with my alt. not very difficult. just select ur targets carefully. Nowhere did I say it wasn't possible, and your KB somewhat proves my point, there's an awful lot of frigates and pods on it. Quote: awoxing, like i said, is nerfed in high sec for corporation hopping awoxers, thus people who keep joining corps to kill someone in there. awoxing as a corp masquerading as a missionrunning/hauling/mining corp is easy in HS, cuz there you can control the switch yourself, and thus prevent being affected by the consequences corp hopping awoxers would likely face. Masqerading as a mining/missioning corp is reverse awoxing, flipping that switch doesn't take effect for 24 hours and each and every member of that corp is given notice that you've flipped the switch the moment you do it. Quote: ganking in groups is indeed a bit more difficult cuz u need coordination, but its still fairly simple button pushing, only thing that really requires skill is being the FC of the group, and being the freighter bumper. that requires some real skills, but DPSing is easy. Ummm everything in Eve is fairly simple button pushing when you get down to the nitty gritty of it, what's your point? Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17753	Posted - 2016.08.01 11:16:01 - [635] - Quote March rabbit wrote: baltec1 wrote: March rabbit wrote: baltec1 wrote: Fun fact. As the game has become safer the rate of growth has declined. ... EVE was growing at its fastest rate back when ganking was much much easier. Is it correlation or coincidence? for example in past: - there was not fozzie-fatique - there was no t3ds - exploration was different - there was not 'c00l new icons' - ... Doesn't really matter. Ganking does not negatively impact sub numbers. And again. Where are proofs? One could say that ganking negatively impacts sub numbers and other factors hide it by positively impact these. So when there is less these 'other factors' ganking becomes major factor and sub numbers start to decrease. I'd say it's up to you to prove ganking does have an impact given that subs were rising at their fastest rate while ganking was much easier.
Giovanni erkelens2 rock shot industries Phoenix Company Alliance 46	Posted - 2016.08.01 11:33:50 - [636] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Giovanni erkelens2 wrote: they call upon players with large wallets because they are able and prepared to loose an expensive ship and buy a new one, not that catalysts or thrashers are very expensive, but talosses and nado's are Try reading what I wrote and try again. Quote: solo ganking, ive done it alot, still do it, all i do is sit at some spot in jita, either at the main station or the instawarp station, or in a gate in niarja, all i do is scan ships, and press F1 if i find something thats worth my loss of ship and secstat, and then loot it with my alt. not very difficult. just select ur targets carefully. Nowhere did I say it wasn't possible, and your KB somewhat proves my point, there's an awful lot of frigates and pods on it. Quote: awoxing, like i said, is nerfed in high sec for corporation hopping awoxers, thus people who keep joining corps to kill someone in there. awoxing as a corp masquerading as a missionrunning/hauling/mining corp is easy in HS, cuz there you can control the switch yourself, and thus prevent being affected by the consequences corp hopping awoxers would likely face. Masqerading as a mining/missioning corp is reverse awoxing, flipping that switch doesn't take effect for 24 hours and each and every member of that corp is given notice that you've flipped the switch the moment you do it. Quote: ganking in groups is indeed a bit more difficult cuz u need coordination, but its still fairly simple button pushing, only thing that really requires skill is being the FC of the group, and being the freighter bumper. that requires some real skills, but DPSing is easy. Ummm everything in Eve is fairly simple button pushing when you get down to the nitty gritty of it, what's your point? my point is is that ganking isnt really labour intensive, while some people call it labour intensive. of course there is alot of frigates and pods and other stuff, probably because i did tons of other things besides ganking, and why would you not shoot someone that is suspect. its not like there is an unending stream of haulers filled with loot undocking from jita or whatever place you wish, so you might as well shoot frigates while youre waiting for the valuable hauler to undock. yes, it costs much, and you arent always lucky when u kill something and the loot drops. but if you do it right and select the right targets you can easily make tons of money from ganking.
March rabbit Mosquito Squadron The-Culture 1838	Posted - 2016.08.01 11:35:09 - [637] - Quote baltec1 wrote: March rabbit wrote: baltec1 wrote: March rabbit wrote: baltec1 wrote: Fun fact. As the game has become safer the rate of growth has declined. ... EVE was growing at its fastest rate back when ganking was much much easier. Is it correlation or coincidence? for example in past: - there was not fozzie-fatique - there was no t3ds - exploration was different - there was not 'c00l new icons' - ... Doesn't really matter. Ganking does not negatively impact sub numbers. And again. Where are proofs? One could say that ganking negatively impacts sub numbers and other factors hide it by positively impact these. So when there is less these 'other factors' ganking becomes major factor and sub numbers start to decrease. I'd say it's up to you to prove ganking does have an impact given that subs were rising at their fastest rate while ganking was much easier. So this is anecdotal evidence. Thanks. The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17755	Posted - 2016.08.01 11:56:41 - [638] - Quote March rabbit wrote: So this is anecdotal evidence. Thanks. More evidence than the "ganking hurts sub numbers" has.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17165	Posted - 2016.08.01 12:05:22 - [639] - Quote March rabbit wrote: So this is anecdotal evidence. Thanks. So is everything said running conter to it. Ccp have stated that one of the largest factors that negativly effect retention is non-engagement with the community, Ganking objectivly produces this , just look at the ammount of op's we have had recently with fire in their belly about it. The only reason they dont ed up as antiganking white knights is the established ones are hilariously incompitant and incapable of forming a counter movement, so the come here an **** and moan about it not being fair. Yeah im aware thats my biased opinion but thats all year going to get from this thread anyway. Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14362	Posted - 2016.08.01 12:14:34 - [640] - Quote baltec1 wrote: March rabbit wrote: So this is anecdotal evidence. Thanks. More evidence than the "ganking hurts sub numbers" has. It was only a matter of time before the "General Discussion Requirement for Evidence" showed up. That requirement can be summed up as : "I reject your argument on the basis of you having little evidence, despite the fact that my own belief is based on zero measurable evidence".
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 70	Posted - 2016.08.01 12:24:53 - [641] - Quote NotTheSmartestCookie wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: That sentence is becoming the ever-green exxcuse to justify this ganking/wardec mechanics, too easy. I would love to have CCP removing some fit slots on every mining/hauling ship and integrate warp core stabs and a much stronger EHP on ships. Just to force gankers to use 4/5 ships for the ganking. No one complains for organized multi/ship ganking even in hisec, as no one complains if he lose expensive/big ships in wormhole or nullsec to small gangs/fleet. It's something acceptable for anyone. Free one ship ganking is totally different.....and the excuse for it is always the same "hisec not 100% sure"... An extra-EHP mining barge, I guess we could call it a Procurer. A quick view on the forum will show you that there is an extra-ordinary amount of whining not only about barges/exhumers being ganked, but also about multi-ship ganking vs freighters. An analysis of the killmails will show that most of the victims did not take advantage of the various buffs offered by CCP, but still fit for max yield or hauling capacity. Note however that the whiners don't call for better fitting tutorials, but just for more buffs for miners and nerfs to gankers. In any case CCP has already announced another round of buffs for mining barges (details pending). Unfortunately this seems to have thrown the miner-whine-train into overdrive. I prefer you over other CODE forum posters that never analyze in-game aspects of their activity...and I don't defend ganked players at all costs, there is surely part of them taking too many risks and complaining anyway, no doubt about it... Edit: my personal philosophy is that if I spend i.e. 50 mils for a ship, when I gained 50 mils out of that ship it's all gained surplus so I can lose that ship at anytime with no regret or "rage", but it's my personal idea... I've seen CCP wants to update mining ships, let's see what will happen...
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2053	Posted - 2016.08.01 12:28:14 - [642] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: March rabbit wrote: So this is anecdotal evidence. Thanks. So is everything said running conter to it. Ccp have stated that one of the largest factors that negativly effect retention is non-engagement with the community, Ganking objectivly produces this , just look at the ammount of op's we have had recently with fire in their belly about it. The only reason they dont ed up as antiganking white knights is the established ones are hilariously incompitant and incapable of forming a counter movement, so the come here an **** and moan about it not being fair. Yeah im aware thats my biased opinion but thats all year going to get from this thread anyway. Edit: I hate this phone. The over use of the word incompetent is fairly amusing, and is a mantra for the gankers and people who support them to hang onto for dear life as it makes them feel better. Anti-Ganking is hard, the cards are stacked against you, and whats more there is no income in it. You do it because you chose to resist against the gankers, every so often someone gives you ISK for saving them. Most of the people doing it are using their alts to get into base level ships and try to help stop a gank. The incompetence is basically that you cannot gank the Macherial with people who can fly T1 logis or T1 jamming ships, you cannot stop the fast warping SB's and Catalysts from leaving the in gate, they all jump together causing lag so its difficult to catch their BC's. When they land you have three choices, rep the target, jam the gankers or blow up the gankers, repping does work, but you need enough logi, jamming is very hit and miss and easily counted, as they fit sensor boosters with ECM scripts and killing them is a race against time and they always bring more than they need to kill the freighter. Another option is to bump the freighter out of optimal which worked until te gankers switched to SB's which in any case suits multi boxes like Kusion. The weak spot was the wrecks, some players were in Rifters using toons they had no issue being criminal with, they would warp in as the gank was ending and target the wreck at their optimal. That got removed by the gankers crying to the CSM and CCP, that was the one activity that was the same as the gankers small fast ships difficult to stop. They were incompetent as they could not stop it and cried to CCP. Next up is loot scooping, using a freighter is not an option, it will just get bumped, one trick is to bump the freighter way away, another is to bump the DST or blow up the noob ships as soon as it goes suspect. Another is to grab the loot if you can, but there are a lot of trigger happy people around who blap anyone who goes suspect. One time I went suspect to rep a guy in a duel and an AG started to attack me, luckily he was incompetent and did not get a point so I had to warp out. Sometimes the gankers make an error like scooping directly into the freighter and they die. Offensive actions are in reality counter ganking, and the one that was easiest was just taken away by the ganker whining to CCP. So the AG are by definition incompetent, but it is not a surprise when the mechanics are so loaded against them, if it was easy they would not fail so often. Earlier on I detailed some of the balance changes that CCP could do to make it more challenging for the industrial level gankers and did you see the crying that produced. Was classic. Let me me blunt I would love to have the wrecks back at 500 EHP and drop the EHP of freighters back down, how about it gankers do we have a deal? Here is betting that they would not accept that at all... So calling AG incompetent is very wide of the mark, I do it every so often, mainly because I do other things, most people are like me. Its like you being a Merc and only doing it every so often because you have no watch list, is that incompetence? When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 274	Posted - 2016.08.01 12:40:59 - [643] - Quote Anti-ganking tactic used since the age of sail: Best tactic Works in EvE too. --Gadget wants a P-Coat Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14362	Posted - 2016.08.01 12:47:36 - [644] - Quote Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: Anti-ganking tactic used since the age of sail: Best tactic Works in EvE too. --Gadget wants a P-Coat lol. The right way to say that is "Works in EvE too....in places where you can get people to cooperate with each other". Hisec isn't one of those places.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2053	Posted - 2016.08.01 12:53:01 - [645] - Quote Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: Anti-ganking tactic used since the age of sail: Best tactic Works in EvE too. --Gadget wants a P-Coat Continue one what you would do exactly, what ships would you use etc. and where for each circumstance Otherwise your statement is just a dig with no substance like most of the rubbish posted on these threads. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17757	Posted - 2016.08.01 13:03:06 - [646] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: I've seen CCP wants to update mining ships, let's see what will happen... Hopefully they undo the raw hp buff they did last time and instead give them the buff via fitting options so that at least some skill is returned to flying them and people have a reason to all of them. I would also revamp the ore holds so cargo expanders can be a real option. Bring back hard decisions when fitting these ships a bit of verity.
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 274	Posted - 2016.08.01 13:17:03 - [647] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: Anti-ganking tactic used since the age of sail: Best tactic Works in EvE too. --Gadget wants a P-Coat lol. The right way to say that is "Works in EvE too....in places where you can get people to cooperate with each other". Hisec isn't one of those places. Hi Jenn, EvE is a social game by design. Trust, of course, is always the hard part. HS, i guess, still needs to learn the hard lessons. /shrug Dracvlad wrote: Continue one what you would do exactly, what ships would you use etc. and where for each circumstance Otherwise your statement is just a dig with no substance like most of the rubbish posted on these threads. Dearest Vlad the Inhaler, Do your own work; however, I'll give you some pointers. You'll need these: Haulers (to carry Stuff) Jump Assists (to help the freighters align) Intel - Scout ahead Armed Escorts (figure out your group's needs) Ewar/Logi - just in case (optional) OPSEC - Loose lips 'splode ships... Friends, allies, contract workers, or lots of alts. Hope that helps! --Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2053	Posted - 2016.08.01 13:18:16 - [648] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: I've seen CCP wants to update mining ships, let's see what will happen... Hopefully they undo the raw hp buff they did last time and instead give them the buff via fitting options so that at least some skill is returned to flying them and people have a reason to use all of them. I would also revamp the ore holds so cargo expanders can be a real option. Bring back hard decisions when fitting these ships and a bit of verity. I think that would be suicidal for CCP, though you never know they do tend to make it easy for you lot... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2053	Posted - 2016.08.01 13:19:27 - [649] - Quote Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: Anti-ganking tactic used since the age of sail: Best tactic Works in EvE too. --Gadget wants a P-Coat lol. The right way to say that is "Works in EvE too....in places where you can get people to cooperate with each other". Hisec isn't one of those places. Hi Jenn, EvE is a social game by design. Trust, of course, is always the hard part. HS, i guess, still needs to learn the hard lessons. /shrug Dracvlad wrote: Continue one what you would do exactly, what ships would you use etc. and where for each circumstance Otherwise your statement is just a dig with no substance like most of the rubbish posted on these threads. Dearest Vlad the Inhaler, Do your own work; however, I'll give you some pointers. You'll need these: Haulers (to carry Stuff) Jump Assists (to help the freighters align) Intel - Scout ahead Armed Escorts (figure out your group's needs) Ewar/Logi - just in case (optional) OPSEC - Loose lips 'splode ships... Friends, allies, contract workers, or lots of alts. Hope that helps! --Gadget Nope, not enough detail and missing some key aspects, you have to figure out what you mean by groups for example, I would give that 2/10. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17758	Posted - 2016.08.01 13:22:47 - [650] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: I've seen CCP wants to update mining ships, let's see what will happen... Hopefully they undo the raw hp buff they did last time and instead give them the buff via fitting options so that at least some skill is returned to flying them and people have a reason to use all of them. I would also revamp the ore holds so cargo expanders can be a real option. Bring back hard decisions when fitting these ships and a bit of verity. I think that would be suicidal for CCP, though you never know they do tend to make it easy for you lot... Gonna have to explain why giving more options to miners to fit their ships in a meaningful way would be suicidal for CCP. Especially given that every single combat ship operates in this way.
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 274	Posted - 2016.08.01 13:23:32 - [651] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Nope, not enough detail and missing some key aspects, you have to figure out what you mean by groups for example, I would give that 2/10. Dearest Vladdie, This is exactly what a request for a handout looks like... --Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2053	Posted - 2016.08.01 13:29:53 - [652] - Quote Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Nope, not enough detail and missing some key aspects, you have to figure out what you mean by groups for example, I would give that 2/10. Dearest Vladdie, This is exactly what a request for a handout looks like... --Gadget It is a request for key details and understanding on certain issues which your simplistic detail is lacking in terms of validating your convoy suggestion. For example what mechanics get in the way? What would you do for example if a blackbird warps down, and its a known ganker alt, that will point your freighter and prevent it from warping, how would you deal with that? This is basic stuff, come on show me your brilliance. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2053	Posted - 2016.08.01 13:36:24 - [653] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: I've seen CCP wants to update mining ships, let's see what will happen... Hopefully they undo the raw hp buff they did last time and instead give them the buff via fitting options so that at least some skill is returned to flying them and people have a reason to use all of them. I would also revamp the ore holds so cargo expanders can be a real option. Bring back hard decisions when fitting these ships and a bit of verity. I think that would be suicidal for CCP, though you never know they do tend to make it easy for you lot... Gonna have to explain why giving more options to miners to fit their ships in a meaningful way would be suicidal for CCP. Especially given that every single combat ship operates in this way. Undoing the raw hp buff would be suicide for CCP and reinforce the perception that they are only interested in giving easy kills to gankers. However making it so the cargo expanders could affect the ore bay I would agree with so you can continue to prey on the stupid or those more committed to yield. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 276	Posted - 2016.08.01 13:41:59 - [654] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Nope, not enough detail and missing some key aspects, you have to figure out what you mean by groups for example, I would give that 2/10. Dearest Vladdie, This is exactly what a request for a handout looks like... --Gadget It is a request for key details and understanding on certain issues which your simplistic detail is lacking in terms of validating your convoy suggestion. For example what mechanics get in the way? What would you do for example if a blackbird warps down, and its a known ganker alt, that will point your freighter and prevent it from warping, how would you deal with that? This is basic stuff, come on show me your brilliance. Private lessons cost extra. -- Kakita Toshimoko --Gadget **GadgetCorp proprietary information is currently not for sale. Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17758	Posted - 2016.08.01 13:43:53 - [655] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: I've seen CCP wants to update mining ships, let's see what will happen... Hopefully they undo the raw hp buff they did last time and instead give them the buff via fitting options so that at least some skill is returned to flying them and people have a reason to use all of them. I would also revamp the ore holds so cargo expanders can be a real option. Bring back hard decisions when fitting these ships and a bit of verity. I think that would be suicidal for CCP, though you never know they do tend to make it easy for you lot... Gonna have to explain why giving more options to miners to fit their ships in a meaningful way would be suicidal for CCP. Especially given that every single combat ship operates in this way. Undoing the raw hp buff would be suicide for CCP and reinforce the perception hat they are only interested in giving easy kills to gankers. However making it so the cargo expanders could affect the ore bay I would agree with so you can continue to prey on the stupid or those more committed to yield. But the hp buff would still be there, you Just have to actively choose to fit it.
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 520	Posted - 2016.08.01 13:48:41 - [656] - Quote "choose". Except every choice other than tank is "stupid" -- why insist on choice if all you ever say is what people should choose anyway? This I would like to know. I have three lowslots. I don't feel like I have any choice-- an Orca gets more EHP than my triple bulkhead freighter. So there's that.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2053	Posted - 2016.08.01 13:50:33 - [657] - Quote Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Nope, not enough detail and missing some key aspects, you have to figure out what you mean by groups for example, I would give that 2/10. Dearest Vladdie, This is exactly what a request for a handout looks like... --Gadget It is a request for key details and understanding on certain issues which your simplistic detail is lacking in terms of validating your convoy suggestion. For example what mechanics get in the way? What would you do for example if a blackbird warps down, and its a known ganker alt, that will point your freighter and prevent it from warping, how would you deal with that? This is basic stuff, come on show me your brilliance. Private lessons cost extra. -- Kakita Toshimoko --Gadget **GadgetCorp proprietary information is currently not for sale. More like it is you who is exhaling hot air. 2/10 for your efforts. I would however suggest if you are in need of ISK you should offer your services to 0.0 alliances who seem to make up the majority of gank victims. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2053	Posted - 2016.08.01 13:52:59 - [658] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Undoing the raw hp buff would be suicide for CCP and reinforce the perception hat they are only interested in giving easy kills to gankers. However making it so the cargo expanders could affect the ore bay I would agree with so you can continue to prey on the stupid or those more committed to yield. But the hp buff would still be there, you Just have to actively choose to fit it. Rubbish, I add to it because I want you lot to have to work to kill me, but if people want to fit cargo expanders to increase the ore bay let them. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17758	Posted - 2016.08.01 13:53:35 - [659] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: "choose". Except every choice other than tank is "stupid" -- why insist on choice if all you ever say is what people should choose anyway? This I would like to know. I have three lowslots. I don't feel like I have any choice-- an Orca gets more EHP than my triple bulkhead freighter. So there's that. The choice would be max tank, max yeild, max cargo or a mixture of all of the above. Exactly the options given on all combat ships ( max gank, max tank, max utility or a mix of the above).
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 520	Posted - 2016.08.01 13:53:52 - [660] - Quote ...which we would then call "Retriever" and call that our Choice, yes?
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 695	Posted - 2016.08.01 13:57:45 - [661] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: So the AG are by definition incompetent,... I think that's one thing everyone can agree on. /thread
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14363	Posted - 2016.08.01 13:58:18 - [662] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: "choose". Except every choice other than tank is "stupid" -- why insist on choice if all you ever say is what people should choose anyway? This I would like to know. I have three lowslots. I don't feel like I have any choice-- an Orca gets more EHP than my triple bulkhead freighter. So there's that. Any choice other than tank is 'stupid' if you are choosing that so you can afk mine or mine without paying attention. I know plenty of people who fit for max yield in high sec and watch local and dscan for gankers. If I get what he is saying, Baltec is just saying that miners shouldn't be coddled, they should have to deal with making fitting choices like everyone else. If I got that right, then I agree, CCP shouldn't be catering to the lazy and the ignorant, they should be telling people "this is a game, learn the game if you want to succeed".
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 521	Posted - 2016.08.01 14:01:10 - [663] - Quote But we already do. You can fit a procurer (for example) for max yield, for max tank, for speed, for tackle, somewhat for DPS and even as bait. What more do you want?
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 355	Posted - 2016.08.01 14:02:20 - [664] - Quote Just release a modular t3 industrial ship that can get the mining yield of 3 hulks, or have a cargohold the size of a freighter, or a fleet hangar the size of an orca's, or provide maxed mining boosts, or a ship hold the size of the bowhead's, or the tank of a rorqual, or any convoluted combination of any/all of these things in the amount desired by the pilot. (I may have missed a few but you get the idea) Let them have the same overly complicated choices as us combat pilots - with the same OP results in 1-2 specific configurations that everybody will end up going with
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17758	Posted - 2016.08.01 14:03:30 - [665] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: ...which we would then call "Retriever" and call that our Choice, yes? If you want less than the mach will provide both in tank and cargo then yes. Equally if you want less yield than the Covetor and hulk provides or less combat capability than the skiff and proc provide.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2053	Posted - 2016.08.01 14:09:17 - [666] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dracvlad wrote: So the AG are by definition incompetent,... I think that's one thing everyone can agree on. /thread Well they are not an organised setup in the main, unlike the gankers. I had the impression that most were doing it while mining or hauling and the majority were using low SP characters. That is like PL dunking some lowly renters.... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14363	Posted - 2016.08.01 14:15:45 - [667] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dracvlad wrote: So the AG are by definition incompetent,... I think that's one thing everyone can agree on. /thread I don't know if I would use the word 'incompetent'. I would use the words 'delusional' and 'reactionary'. Delusional because they don't understand themselves (the 1st party of success in anything is understanding yourself 1st). Most anti-ganker types, like most high sec resident types, are loners and asocial people for whom cooperation is hard. Each of them thinks they are unique and smarter than everyone else and each has his/her own agenda and are trying to use the ag 'movement' to further those goals. I've visited some in game AG channels and those places are SICK and full of angst. AGs don't like each other almost as much as they hate gankers. The whole thing is reactionary because they don't exist to have fun (like the ganekrs do), they exist for the purpose of stopping someone else (ie reacting). The gankers on the other hand 'fit' together much better, they are having fun, they aren't bitter, and they are impressed as hell when someone outthinks them. That's how I became actual friends with gankers, by earning their respect while thwarting their attempts to kill my hauling ships and deadspace fit mission running ships. Because anti-gankers (like all 'fighters of grave injustice' types lol) are focused on external forces ("CCP is for the gankers!") and simply can't understand that their biggest enemies are their own screwed up personalities and personal agendas.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2053	Posted - 2016.08.01 14:17:27 - [668] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: ...which we would then call "Retriever" and call that our Choice, yes? If you want less than the mach will provide both in tank and cargo then yes. Equally if you want less yield than the Covetor and hulk provides or less combat capability than the skiff and proc provide. To be clear, if I was given to opportunity to rebalance mining barges I would not simply undo the hp buff, I would strip all of the ships bare and rework every in from their hit points to their bonus and their fitting slots. The would be radically different to what we have today are more resemble cruisers and heavy assault cruisers than the simplistic ships we have right now. Mach, what the hell is that ship, don't you mean the Mack? Yes of course you would undo the ehp buff, because you want easy kills, we know that. In my opinion the Coveter / Hulk and Retriever / Mackinaw all need raw ehp buffs. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2053	Posted - 2016.08.01 14:22:48 - [669] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dracvlad wrote: So the AG are by definition incompetent,... I think that's one thing everyone can agree on. /thread I don't know if I would use the word 'incompetent'. I would use the words 'delusional' and 'reactionary'. Delusional because they don't understand themselves (the 1st part of success in anything is understanding yourself 1st). Most anti-ganker types, like most high sec resident types, are loners and asocial people for whom cooperation is hard. Each of them thinks they are unique and smarter than everyone else and each has his/her own agenda and are trying to use the ag 'movement' to further those goals. I've visited some in game AG channels and those places are SICK and full of angst. AGs don't like each other almost as much as they hate gankers. The whole thing is reactionary because they don't exist to have fun (like the ganekrs do), they exist for the purpose of stopping someone else (ie reacting). The gankers on the other hand 'fit' together much better, they are having fun, they aren't bitter, and they are impressed as hell when someone outthinks them. That's how I became actual friends with gankers, by earning their respect while thwarting their attempts to kill my hauling ships and deadspace fit mission running ships. Because anti-gankers (like all 'fighters of grave injustice' types lol) are focused on external forces ("CCP is for the gankers!") and simply can't understand that their biggest enemies are their own screwed up personalities and personal agendas. That is such a sweeping troll generalisation I have to laugh at it, I have a menatl impression of you sat in a high chair with a dummy in your mouth and a megaphone stuck to your rear end. It sure fits that little rant. So when CCP removes the one thing where anti-gankers can act like gankers and have fun that is ignored by you, what a surprise. Yeah I am bitter over that, would be pretty hard not to be. And what the hell does your deadspace mission ship have to do with anything, CODE and the Goons hardly ever gank mission ships, thats a loud bit of noise from that megaphone mate and I will hold my nose at that. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
xxxTRUSTxxx Galactic Rangers EVEolution. 454	Posted - 2016.08.01 14:35:05 - [670] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Just release a modular t3 industrial ship that can get the mining yield of 3 hulks, or have a cargohold the size of a freighter, or a fleet hangar the size of an orca's, or provide maxed mining boosts, or a ship hold the size of the bowhead's, or the tank of a rorqual, or any convoluted combination of any/all of these things in the amount desired by the pilot. (I may have missed a few but you get the idea) Let them have the same overly complicated choices as us combat pilots - with the same OP results in 1-2 specific configurations that everybody will end up going with The greedy and the silly would still fit them terrible and still die to ganks, then jump on here demanding sweeping changes to suit their ignorance. I'm playing long enough to know the difference between a player that will listen and a player that thinks he knows it all, get's ganked and still will not listen to advice. and to them guys i say ,,!,, every single time their just not worth the time and effort. Those that want this safety bubble to sit mining and never worry need to feck off. you guys need to understand how the game works. you can't create an endless supply of ore that cannot be attacked or controlled with game mechanics. that would just destory the market and you'd be on here whining about that then. you will never get this bubble you want where you can sit all day long mining without a care in the world. EVE isn't the game for you guys. I'm sorry but that's just the way things are. numbers go up and numbers go down, I really have no respect for the scrubs that jump on here making their salf centered demands based on their belief that they know EVE better than CCP and if these changes don't happen the game will die. all based on look! the numbers are down, quick CCP,, make changes or the game will die. another EVE is dying thread that turns into a wall of bollox. needs to be locked, these threads do more damage than good. why are they not being locked for being redundant?
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 360	Posted - 2016.08.01 14:39:27 - [671] - Quote xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: The greedy and the silly would still fit them terrible and still die to ganks And the problem is....???
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14365	Posted - 2016.08.01 14:39:45 - [672] - Quote So i went back to the 1st page of this thread. I am no convinced that Memphis Baas is the ghost of Ms Cleo! (The following should be read in an exaggerated Jamaican accent) Memphis Baas wrote: The two reasons you've listed are not it / don't cover all the possible reasons why. This thread is going to devolve into lots of opinions, without any data or proof to back any of them. And a lot of the opinions are just going to bash CCP, which is just going to **** them off and devolve into flaming anyway. This thread is a flame bait thread. Posting "why does this game suck?" on a game's primary forum is a troll post.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17760	Posted - 2016.08.01 14:41:01 - [673] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: ...which we would then call "Retriever" and call that our Choice, yes? If you want less than the mach will provide both in tank and cargo then yes. Equally if you want less yield than the Covetor and hulk provides or less combat capability than the skiff and proc provide. To be clear, if I was given to opportunity to rebalance mining barges I would not simply undo the hp buff, I would strip all of the ships bare and rework every in from their hit points to their bonus and their fitting slots. The would be radically different to what we have today are more resemble cruisers and heavy assault cruisers than the simplistic ships we have right now. Mach, what the hell is that ship, don't you mean the Mack? Yes of course you would undo the ehp buff, because you want easy kills, we know that. In my opinion the Coveter / Hulk and Retriever / Mackinaw all need raw ehp buffs. The only easy kills would be the ones where people chose to make themselves easy to kill. Risk vs reward in action.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2053	Posted - 2016.08.01 14:41:38 - [674] - Quote xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Just release a modular t3 industrial ship that can get the mining yield of 3 hulks, or have a cargohold the size of a freighter, or a fleet hangar the size of an orca's, or provide maxed mining boosts, or a ship hold the size of the bowhead's, or the tank of a rorqual, or any convoluted combination of any/all of these things in the amount desired by the pilot. (I may have missed a few but you get the idea) Let them have the same overly complicated choices as us combat pilots - with the same OP results in 1-2 specific configurations that everybody will end up going with The greedy and the silly would still fit them terrible and still die to ganks, then jump on here demanding sweeping changes to suit their ignorance. I'm playing long enough to know the difference between a player that will listen and a player that thinks he knows it all, get's ganked and still will not listen to advice. and to them guys i say ,,!,, every single time their just not worth the time and effort. Those that want this safety bubble to sit mining and never worry need to feck off. you guys need to understand how the game works. you can't create an endless supply of ore that cannot be attacked or controlled with game mechanics. that would just destory the market adn you'd be on here whining about that then. you will never get this bubble you want where you can sit all day long mining without a care in the world. EVE isn't the game for you guys. I'm sorry but that's just the way things are. numbers go up and numbers go down, I really have no respect for the scrubs that jump on here making their salf centered demands based on their belief that they know EVE better than CCP and if these changes don't happen the game will die. all based on look! the numbers are down, quick CCP,, make changes or the game will die. another EVE is dying thread that turns into a wall of bollox. needs to be locked, these threads do more damage than good. why are they not being locked for being redundant? Because mate CCP buffed the EHP of mining ships because of what exactly, a guess, a feeling or hard cold data that showed a loss of player who mined. Of course you and people like you want threads like this locked, wouldn't surprise me if you reported it for locking. The perception is that CCP favours gankers, griefers, scammmers and player killers, this hurts them in terms of people wanting to play the game, it hurts them in losing people. It is fine to have a game where there is no safety, that is what makes Eve, but when we can detail mechanics that are so easy to take advantage off by the gankers and then when the AG have one they can do and it gets closed off as soon as they start using it it shows the issue, see above. There is a rotten smell and it is not just coming from Jenn's megaphone... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2053	Posted - 2016.08.01 14:43:35 - [675] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: ...which we would then call "Retriever" and call that our Choice, yes? If you want less than the mach will provide both in tank and cargo then yes. Equally if you want less yield than the Covetor and hulk provides or less combat capability than the skiff and proc provide. To be clear, if I was given to opportunity to rebalance mining barges I would not simply undo the hp buff, I would strip all of the ships bare and rework every in from their hit points to their bonus and their fitting slots. The would be radically different to what we have today are more resemble cruisers and heavy assault cruisers than the simplistic ships we have right now. Mach, what the hell is that ship, don't you mean the Mack? Yes of course you would undo the ehp buff, because you want easy kills, we know that. In my opinion the Coveter / Hulk and Retriever / Mackinaw all need raw ehp buffs. The only easy kills would be the ones where people chose to make themselves easy to kill. Risk vs reward in action. They take a risk in fitting for yield with mining lasers in the low and use a mid for a survey scanner which is the reward, working as intended mate. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Giovanni erkelens2 rock shot industries Phoenix Company Alliance 49	Posted - 2016.08.01 14:43:40 - [676] - Quote xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Just release a modular t3 industrial ship that can get the mining yield of 3 hulks, or have a cargohold the size of a freighter, or a fleet hangar the size of an orca's, or provide maxed mining boosts, or a ship hold the size of the bowhead's, or the tank of a rorqual, or any convoluted combination of any/all of these things in the amount desired by the pilot. (I may have missed a few but you get the idea) Let them have the same overly complicated choices as us combat pilots - with the same OP results in 1-2 specific configurations that everybody will end up going with The greedy and the silly would still fit them terrible and still die to ganks, then jump on here demanding sweeping changes to suit their ignorance. I'm playing long enough to know the difference between a player that will listen and a player that thinks he knows it all, get's ganked and still will not listen to advice. and to them guys i say ,,!,, every single time their just not worth the time and effort. Those that want this safety bubble to sit mining and never worry need to feck off. you guys need to understand how the game works. you can't create an endless supply of ore that cannot be attacked or controlled with game mechanics. that would just destory the market and you'd be on here whining about that then. you will never get this bubble you want where you can sit all day long mining without a care in the world. EVE isn't the game for you guys. I'm sorry but that's just the way things are. numbers go up and numbers go down, I really have no respect for the scrubs that jump on here making their salf centered demands based on their belief that they know EVE better than CCP and if these changes don't happen the game will die. all based on look! the numbers are down, quick CCP,, make changes or the game will die. another EVE is dying thread that turns into a wall of bollox. needs to be locked, these threads do more damage than good. why are they not being locked for being redundant? why wont they lock threads for being written without capital characters. seriously though, thats how stupid this sounds. it damages nothing but the people's egos and feelings which write in it anyway.
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 70	Posted - 2016.08.01 14:45:23 - [677] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dracvlad wrote: So the AG are by definition incompetent,... I think that's one thing everyone can agree on. /thread I don't know if I would use the word 'incompetent'. I would use the words 'delusional' and 'reactionary'. Delusional because they don't understand themselves (the 1st part of success in anything is understanding yourself 1st). Most anti-ganker types, like most high sec resident types, are loners and asocial people for whom cooperation is hard. Each of them thinks they are unique and smarter than everyone else and each has his/her own agenda and are trying to use the ag 'movement' to further those goals. I've visited some in game AG channels and those places are SICK and full of angst. AGs don't like each other almost as much as they hate gankers. The whole thing is reactionary because they don't exist to have fun (like the ganekrs do), they exist for the purpose of stopping someone else (ie reacting). The gankers on the other hand 'fit' together much better, they are having fun, they aren't bitter, and they are impressed as hell when someone outthinks them. That's how I became actual friends with gankers, by earning their respect while thwarting their attempts to kill my hauling ships and deadspace fit mission running ships. Because anti-gankers (like all 'fighters of grave injustice' types lol) are focused on external forces ("CCP is for the gankers!") and simply can't understand that their biggest enemies are their own screwed up personalities and personal agendas. I think to say that hisec players are asocial and so on is very unfair... For what I saw so far many of the hisec players are persons that are not very young ( IRL I mean ) and cannot have the dedication to play together with others. I don't know the age of the forum posters here but I can tell you that if you are 30/40/50 or more years old and have family and children, to find spare time hours to focus in front of your pc without leaving it even for a minute can be very very hard. You can say: " If you haven't time for it, you should quit it" Yes, it's an option too. It's the reason I think some months with Concord on strike would give CCP developers a clear idea about how many "mature" players are actually on Eve. I said mature, not asocial.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2053	Posted - 2016.08.01 14:47:58 - [678] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: So i went back to the 1st page of this thread. I am no convinced that Memphis Baas is the ghost of Ms Cleo! (The following should be read in an exaggerated Jamaican accent) Memphis Baas wrote: The two reasons you've listed are not it / don't cover all the possible reasons why. This thread is going to devolve into lots of opinions, without any data or proof to back any of them. And a lot of the opinions are just going to bash CCP, which is just going to **** them off and devolve into flaming anyway. This thread is a flame bait thread. Posting "why does this game suck?" on a game's primary forum is a troll post. Any one posting against the forum trolls narrative is going to get flamed. So what that's the Malcanis law of the forums. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17760	Posted - 2016.08.01 14:55:16 - [679] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: ...which we would then call "Retriever" and call that our Choice, yes? If you want less than the mach will provide both in tank and cargo then yes. Equally if you want less yield than the Covetor and hulk provides or less combat capability than the skiff and proc provide. To be clear, if I was given to opportunity to rebalance mining barges I would not simply undo the hp buff, I would strip all of the ships bare and rework every in from their hit points to their bonus and their fitting slots. The would be radically different to what we have today are more resemble cruisers and heavy assault cruisers than the simplistic ships we have right now. Mach, what the hell is that ship, don't you mean the Mack? Yes of course you would undo the ehp buff, because you want easy kills, we know that. In my opinion the Coveter / Hulk and Retriever / Mackinaw all need raw ehp buffs. The only easy kills would be the ones where people chose to make themselves easy to kill. Risk vs reward in action. They take a risk in fitting for yield with mining lasers in the low and use a mid for a survey scanner which is the reward, working as intended mate. What risk is there for a max yeild skiff? Nothing is going to bother it because it still tanks like a beast. The hulk and Mack have next to no customisation options as you can't alter the cargo on either. The ships are forced into just one role simply because their bonuses and fitting give very little option to customise to your liking. The barge lineup is poorly balanced.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17760	Posted - 2016.08.01 14:58:03 - [680] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dracvlad wrote: So the AG are by definition incompetent,... I think that's one thing everyone can agree on. /thread I don't know if I would use the word 'incompetent'. I would use the words 'delusional' and 'reactionary'. Delusional because they don't understand themselves (the 1st part of success in anything is understanding yourself 1st). Most anti-ganker types, like most high sec resident types, are loners and asocial people for whom cooperation is hard. Each of them thinks they are unique and smarter than everyone else and each has his/her own agenda and are trying to use the ag 'movement' to further those goals. I've visited some in game AG channels and those places are SICK and full of angst. AGs don't like each other almost as much as they hate gankers. The whole thing is reactionary because they don't exist to have fun (like the ganekrs do), they exist for the purpose of stopping someone else (ie reacting). The gankers on the other hand 'fit' together much better, they are having fun, they aren't bitter, and they are impressed as hell when someone outthinks them. That's how I became actual friends with gankers, by earning their respect while thwarting their attempts to kill my hauling ships and deadspace fit mission running ships. Because anti-gankers (like all 'fighters of grave injustice' types lol) are focused on external forces ("CCP is for the gankers!") and simply can't understand that their biggest enemies are their own screwed up personalities and personal agendas. I think to say that hisec players are asocial and so on is very unfair... For what I saw so far many of the hisec players are persons that are not very young ( IRL I mean ) and cannot have the dedication to play together with others. I don't know the age of the forum posters here but I can tell you that if you are 30/40/50 or more years old and have family and children, to find spare time hours to focus in front of your pc without leaving it even for a minute can be very very hard. You can say: " If you haven't time for it, you should quit it" Yes, it's an option too. It's the reason I think some months with Concord on strike would give CCP developers a clear idea about how many "mature" players are actually on Eve. I said mature, not asocial. I think the average age is mid 30s for all of eve. Most people I know are working and have families so it's not a highsec only thing=ƒÿë
xxxTRUSTxxx Galactic Rangers EVEolution. 455	Posted - 2016.08.01 15:06:08 - [681] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: The greedy and the silly would still fit them terrible and still die to ganks And the problem is....??? none,, working as intended.
xxxTRUSTxxx Galactic Rangers EVEolution. 455	Posted - 2016.08.01 15:09:48 - [682] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: There is a rotten smell and it is not just coming from Jenn's megaphone... and that means exactly what? the shite you peddle doesn't smell, only everyone elses?
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14366	Posted - 2016.08.01 15:11:38 - [683] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dracvlad wrote: So the AG are by definition incompetent,... I think that's one thing everyone can agree on. /thread I don't know if I would use the word 'incompetent'. I would use the words 'delusional' and 'reactionary'. Delusional because they don't understand themselves (the 1st part of success in anything is understanding yourself 1st). Most anti-ganker types, like most high sec resident types, are loners and asocial people for whom cooperation is hard. Each of them thinks they are unique and smarter than everyone else and each has his/her own agenda and are trying to use the ag 'movement' to further those goals. I've visited some in game AG channels and those places are SICK and full of angst. AGs don't like each other almost as much as they hate gankers. The whole thing is reactionary because they don't exist to have fun (like the ganekrs do), they exist for the purpose of stopping someone else (ie reacting). The gankers on the other hand 'fit' together much better, they are having fun, they aren't bitter, and they are impressed as hell when someone outthinks them. That's how I became actual friends with gankers, by earning their respect while thwarting their attempts to kill my hauling ships and deadspace fit mission running ships. Because anti-gankers (like all 'fighters of grave injustice' types lol) are focused on external forces ("CCP is for the gankers!") and simply can't understand that their biggest enemies are their own screwed up personalities and personal agendas. I think to say that hisec players are asocial and so on is very unfair... For what I saw so far many of the hisec players are persons that are not very young ( IRL I mean ) and cannot have the dedication to play together with others. I don't know the age of the forum posters here but I can tell you that if you are 30/40/50 or more years old and have family and children, to find spare time hours to focus in front of your pc without leaving it even for a minute can be very very hard. You can say: " If you haven't time for it, you should quit it" Yes, it's an option too. It's the reason I think some months with Concord on strike would give CCP developers a clear idea about how many "mature" players are actually on Eve. I said mature, not asocial. I'm 42 and married. I've been playing EVE since 2007, the whole time I've had a full time job, worked overtime or part time jobs etc. Whether a person is socially minded (ie can make friends, likes to interact with people) has nothing to do with play time. Plenty of casual players play with/against others. Each part of space attracts different people. Sov Null sec tends to attract people who like (or at least don't mind) being in a largish group. Low sec attracts people who tend to prefer smallish groups (but who still prefer groups). Hi Sec has people who fit into both the above categories, but is mainly the place for casual, solo, non-pvp types. The only reason there are gankers and wardeccers in high sec is because that's where their prey is (casual, solo, non-pvp types tend to be fairly soft types who find cooperating with others difficult). Wormholers are just weird. They are Lowseccers who hate Gates and Local chat lol. But yea, High sec types tend to be asocial, That's not to say that all are (some of them are very social and even organize groups within npc corps). But they tend to play the game for the game aspect, where as more social players use the game as a back drop for social activity.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2053	Posted - 2016.08.01 15:27:31 - [684] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: They take a risk in fitting for yield with mining lasers in the low and use a mid for a survey scanner which is the reward, working as intended mate. What risk is there for a max yeild skiff? Nothing is going to bother it because it still tanks like a beast. The hulk and Mack have next to no customisation options as you can't alter the cargo on either and it's pointless getting them for their tank because you might as well get a skiff. The ships are forced into just one role simply because their bonuses and fitting give very little option to customise to your liking. The barge lineup is poorly balanced. My dear boy, the Skiff has a lower base yield then the Mackinaw and Hulk, that is why in areas where CODE are too lazy to operate you see them. But most people who go for yield go for the Retreiver as Brokk quite rightly pointed out, its is cheap too and the yield will make a big enough difference over a couple of hours to more than pay for its inability to tank a single Catalyst.... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Pandora Carrollon Kingsman Tailors 508	Posted - 2016.08.01 15:28:27 - [685] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: lol. The right way to say that is "Works in EvE too....in places where you can get people to cooperate with each other". Hisec isn't one of those places. You can if you pay for the cooperation... ISK usually works. Now, sometimes mutual benefit works as well. I know, I've participated in it. Nothing happened but we actively did work together and helped each other out (non allied corps/players in HiSec) to get something done in system. However, that takes talking and communication. That is what really keeps players engaged. Ralph KG and CCP are correct. The more you interact, you more you are likely to stay. Be Positive GÇó Change yourself first, New Eden will come later GÇó EVE is Awesome GÇó CCP isn't the enemy GÇó Players are people too GÇó Where're the clothing blueprints GÇó Yeah, I'm still learning this game -- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2053	Posted - 2016.08.01 15:33:20 - [686] - Quote xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: Dracvlad wrote: There is a rotten smell and it is not just coming from Jenn's megaphone... and that means exactly what? the shite you peddle doesn't smell, only everyone elses? So what is your view on how the wreck EHP of freighters got changed to 15,000 EHP from 500 EHP, was it done with the purest of intentions, or was it because the AG was starting to gank wrecks, answers on a post card. To help in your journey of discovery you will find thet the person who jumped on to this was Endie whose corp was at one time the biggest industrial gankers in Eve. He may be a paton saint of Eve for all I know, but the timing looks rather suspect, so if my feeling that this was a bit of a fix to favour the gankers smalls then it sure does smell. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2053	Posted - 2016.08.01 15:38:38 - [687] - Quote Pandora Carrollon wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: lol. The right way to say that is "Works in EvE too....in places where you can get people to cooperate with each other". Hisec isn't one of those places. You can if you pay for the cooperation... ISK usually works. Now, sometimes mutual benefit works as well. I know, I've participated in it. Nothing happened but we actively did work together and helped each other out (non allied corps/players in HiSec) to get something done in system. However, that takes talking and communication. That is what really keeps players engaged. Ralph KG and CCP are correct. The more you interact, you more you are likely to stay. No one actually disagrees with that poin in that being social is better, but why would a load of anti-social miners who were perfectly happy playing the game for a long time and being quite often solo give up when all the mining ships had the tank of a wet paper bag and destroyers could kill them easily. Damn big mystery to CCP and obviously gankers and ganker aligned players. I know its because if they could be killed with a noob ship with noob weapons they would have stayed, get to it CCP. PS That was not aimed at you, just at the ganker aligned players. Perhaps we need to make it so everyone in hisec automatically has a tank of a wet paper bag and then the game will have a massive intake of new players and no one will leave period. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 281	Posted - 2016.08.01 15:51:15 - [688] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: Dracvlad wrote: There is a rotten smell and it is not just coming from Jenn's megaphone... and that means exactly what? the shite you peddle doesn't smell, only everyone elses? So what is your view on how the wreck EHP of freighters got changed to 15,000 EHP from 500 EHP, was it done with the purest of intentions, or was it because the AG was starting to gank wrecks, answers on a post card. To help in your journey of discovery you will find thet the person who jumped on to this was Endie whose corp was at one time the biggest industrial gankers in Eve. He may be a paton saint of Eve for all I know, but the timing looks rather suspect, so if my feeling that this was a bit of a fix to favour the gankers smalls then it sure does smell. Unintended consequences followed by a weird sense of 'balance' to the nerf/buff cycle. The change was made for reasons related to controlling a battlefield. Quick removal of wrecks removes some warp-in opportunites and locations. The wrecks were being blapped with a single gun, meaning that the were easily - and near instantly- cleaned up leaving noting to create an easy warp-in point from. Increasing the HP of the wrecks added more meaningful choices: Appoint more resources to clean the wrecks, Take more time to clean the wrecks, or ignore the wrecks and just accept being warped in on top of. It was brought up in the forums how this change might affect HS privateering, but it was noted that the EHP increase for all ships due to the DCU changes (and changes to Hull resists) would 'balance' out the wreck changes. --Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
Hilmar Fudd Wery Wascally Wabbits 18	Posted - 2016.08.01 15:53:29 - [689] - Quote I agree that LOTS of ganked ships deserve it due poor fits, choice of route/place etc. However, CCP changing game mechanics to benefit gankers is not just unfair, it's really dumb business practice. Professional gankers are a tiny minority of the subscriber base, deserving a corresponding tiny amount of positive help from CCP. IMO of course. Back to the OP...Why? I logged in Sunday afternoon at usual Sun peak time and there were 30k players. I remember not that long ago seeing 50k then over 60k players logged in at that time on most Sunday's. There is only ONE constant reason why. CCP. Defend them all you want, they hold the ultimate responsibility for the chain of bad decisions that has led us to where we are. The list for me is almost endless... The attempts to force people into larger groups, to force people into Null, the love of lag fest blob warfare, just plain dumb changes made while ignoring player suggestions, comments, legitimate complaints during testing. The emphasis on instant gratification noobs, wiping out months and even years of skill training, research with an "Oh well" and just giving it away In a misguided attempt to attract new players at the expense of vets. Selling SP's...yeah I know the come back.."But the character bazaar". Nope, the character bazaar characters took a lot of players sub time, not plex's for cash for instant uber training. 30k players have spoke with their wallets...and CCP is spending it's time with WTF Citadels and trinkets for noobs diversions. Oh, and constantly listening to the Null sec CCM's greedy, one sided manipulations. I hardly even play anymore, when I do it is nowhere near as fun as it was. Because CCP....period. They are their own worst enemy and they seriously need to shake up upper management before they run what was once a great game all the way into the ground. My .02
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 525	Posted - 2016.08.01 15:56:12 - [690] - Quote baltec1 wrote: What risk is there for a max yeild skiff? Nothing is going to bother it because it still tanks like a beast. The hulk and Mack have next to no customisation options as you can't alter the cargo on either and it's pointless getting them for their tank because you might as well get a skiff. The ships are forced into just one role simply because their bonuses and fitting give very little option to customise to your liking. The barge lineup is poorly balanced. It risks getting ganked before it earns back its hefty price tag just for KB green or to 'discourage' the Skiffers. It's also outdone by a max yield Hulk. It risks getting either its cargo stolen (when canmining) or missing out on half the icebelt in transit (limited cargohold) It risks one of the newly introduced dread spawns. It risks dying in a ball of fire to an interceptor fleet, a hotdrop, a solo Sabre or Rapier, ..... Seriously, killing a Skiff isn't rocket science. Their DPs is laughable. Tank only delays the inevitable. They're not good at getting away; in fact they basically have to be aligned at all times-- that's a telltale sign of a ship that doesn't do very well on its own. There is a reason Skiffs mine in flocks. On its own, it is indeed quite dead quite fast.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2053	Posted - 2016.08.01 15:57:15 - [691] - Quote Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: Dracvlad wrote: xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: Dracvlad wrote: There is a rotten smell and it is not just coming from Jenn's megaphone... and that means exactly what? the shite you peddle doesn't smell, only everyone elses? So what is your view on how the wreck EHP of freighters got changed to 15,000 EHP from 500 EHP, was it done with the purest of intentions, or was it because the AG was starting to gank wrecks, answers on a post card. To help in your journey of discovery you will find thet the person who jumped on to this was Endie whose corp was at one time the biggest industrial gankers in Eve. He may be a paton saint of Eve for all I know, but the timing looks rather suspect, so if my feeling that this was a bit of a fix to favour the gankers smalls then it sure does smell. Unintended consequences followed by a weird sense of 'balance' to the nerf/buff cycle. The change was made for reasons related to controlling a battlefield. Quick removal of wrecks removes some warp-in opportunities and locations. The wrecks were being blapped with a single gun, meaning that they were easily - and near instantly- cleaned up leaving nothing to create an easy warp-in point from. Increasing the HP of the wrecks added more meaningful choices: Appoint more resources to clean the wrecks; take more time to clean the wrecks; or ignore the wrecks and just accept being warped in on top of. It was brought up in the forums how this change might affect HS privateering, but it was also noted that the EHP increase for all ships due to the DCU changes (and changes to Hull resists) would 'balance' out the wreck changes. --Gadget Yes a good reason as people like me agree with, however why did it suddenly get picked up on by Endie? Ask yourself another question it was like that for years, why change now, and in big fights there are so many wrecks its difficult to blow them all up. As for it being balanced, no it was not balanced out at all, because it removed the one fun part of doing AG stuff. If you could have heard some of the ganker comms when the wreck got blown up you would understand, some of them went utterly apeshite at it, a certain player who is no longer in Eve went on a 20 minute rant over the wreck being blown up. Perhaps it is because Eve is really a game of rainbows and unicrons for gankers. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Caco De'mon New Order Logistics CODE. 14	Posted - 2016.08.01 15:57:38 - [692] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Perhaps we need to make it so everyone in hisec automatically has a tank of a wet paper bag and then the game will have a massive intake of new players and no one will leave period. Or perhaps CCP can give you a EHP boost so that you greedy little miners can watch YouTube all you want while AFK mining for your PLEXs and not have to worry about anything. You're goal is to make HiSec 100% safe so that would be the end result. Every player with a dedicated account just to AFK mine for their PLEX. *"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 525	Posted - 2016.08.01 16:00:02 - [693] - Quote I have a better idea: simply provide LESS ore in highsec. Once the belts start running out when they're stripmined, they'll turn on one another soon enough and start ganking the 'competition' themselves. As long as there is infinite ore and ice, there is no incentive to be competitive. Edit: same points were raised in the wardec thread: there has to be something to fight over in order to have a meaningful conflict. See where I'm going with this?
Caco De'mon New Order Logistics CODE. 14	Posted - 2016.08.01 16:02:49 - [694] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: I have a better idea: simply provide LESS ore in highsec. Once the belts start running out when they're stripmined, they'll turn on one another soon enough and start ganking the 'competition' themselves. As long as there is infinite ore and ice, there is no incentive to be competitive. Yep...The end goal for (greedy) miners is to PLEX mine in 100% safety. I have zero issue with making, oh say, 0.8->1.0 100% for new players BUT then remove 90% of the ore so that players can't just AFK mine. They can't have it both ways... *"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 526	Posted - 2016.08.01 16:08:39 - [695] - Quote Yea. No shortage of ideas; but what would be good for you and me would be totally unacceptable for others. CCP is tightrope walking the middle-of-the-road and that's on overall, not bad. There's something for everyone yet impossible to please everyone. It's a good thing we can all move to those areas of space we love best, ain't it?
Caco De'mon New Order Logistics CODE. 15	Posted - 2016.08.01 16:13:58 - [696] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Yea. No shortage of ideas; but what would be good for you and me would be totally unacceptable for others. CCP is tightrope walking the middle-of-the-road and that's on overall, not bad. There's something for everyone yet impossible to please everyone. It's a good thing we can all move to those areas of space we love best, ain't it? True but I think most would also agree that HS is too big and resource rich. This makes it too easy of a target for the PLEX-miner types which in turn attract the wrath of CODE. Ages ago I read a great line in the forums on how EVE's economy was based on the concept of over-supply and how that by itself is not a bad thing but how those resources are distributed is a bad thing. *"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 526	Posted - 2016.08.01 16:16:01 - [697] - Quote Agreed. Can't help but wonder how many of those are actually nullsec alts earning a buck to fund their PvP though... The logs show nothing.
Caco De'mon New Order Logistics CODE. 16	Posted - 2016.08.01 16:19:43 - [698] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Agreed. Can't help but wonder how many of those are actually nullsec alts earning a buck to fund their PvP though... The logs show nothing. True but at the end of the day, the reason they are doing it is actually irrelevant (PLEX or just easy income). The fact that CCP puts such a large trough out for the little piggies to feed at is the problem. The resource-creation mechanic needs adjusting... *"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 282	Posted - 2016.08.01 16:28:10 - [699] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: I have a better idea: simply provide LESS ore in highsec. Once the belts start running out when they're stripmined, they'll turn on one another soon enough and start ganking the 'competition' themselves. As long as there is infinite ore and ice, there is no incentive to be competitive. Edit: same points were raised in the wardec thread: there has to be something to fight over in order to have a meaningful conflict. See where I'm going with this? The ones that stay might. Many will quit. And while that could be a good thing for the "kill all the thngs!" crowd, it will take out a needed and ...dare I say it... integral part of EvE. Some people LIKE the boring parts of EvE. One pilot's boring is someone else's relaxing. But, without the minerals from mining, it'll be tough to make Stuff to blow up. "But they can mine in null and make more," some say? Sure they could, and they could even have arguably better protection in the middle of a blue area, but this misses something about the independent miner/explorer/mission runner - independence. These players rely on the mechanics to accomplish their tasks. Sure some take it too far IMO -- AFK anything in EvE should be a first class ticket to buying a replacement ship -- but for the most part, I find no fault in players wanting to do their own thing. These players want to be in control of their destinies, but don't want to lead. Fine. Let them. There's nothing wrong with this, as long as they aren't trying to change EvE to be a single player game. Changing the game too far from its core - in either direction - will cause more problems than solutions. I don't want to see HS become the place of you can't do that, but at the same time having no HS at all (or an unrecognizable HS) would make this game not EvE. This is EvE - not WoT is space, Space WoW, Asteroid Minecraft, Second Spacelife, or Trade Wars 2016. EvE has elements of ALL these games blended together spiced up with a bit of camaraderie, sociopathy, greed, and generosity. So EvE needs its mousy miners just as it needs its ne'er-do-wells. Getting rid of playstyles or whole occupations can only stymie player retention. --Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
Caco De'mon New Order Logistics CODE. 16	Posted - 2016.08.01 16:33:20 - [700] - Quote Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: I have a better idea: simply provide LESS ore in highsec. Once the belts start running out when they're stripmined, they'll turn on one another soon enough and start ganking the 'competition' themselves. As long as there is infinite ore and ice, there is no incentive to be competitive. Edit: same points were raised in the wardec thread: there has to be something to fight over in order to have a meaningful conflict. See where I'm going with this? The ones that stay might. Many will quit. And while that could be a good thing for the "kill all the thngs!" crowd, it will take out a needed and ...dare I say it... integral part of EvE. Some people LIKE the boring parts of EvE. One pilot's boring is someone else's relaxing. But, without the minerals from mining, it'll be tough to make Stuff to blow up. "But they can mine in null and make more," some say? Sure they could, and they could even have arguably better protection in the middle of a blue area, but this misses something about the independent miner/explorer/mission runner - independence. These players rely on the mechanics to accomplish their tasks. Sure some take it too far IMO -- AFK anything in EvE should be a first class ticket to buying a replacement ship -- but for the most part, I find no fault in players wanting to do their own thing. These players want to be in control of their destinies, but don't want to lead. Fine. Let them. There's nothing wrong with this, as long as they aren't trying to change EvE to be a single player game. Changing the game too far from its core - in either direction - will cause more problems than solutions. I don't want to see HS become the place of you can't do that, but at the same time having no HS at all (or an unrecognizable HS) would make this game not EvE. This is EvE - not WoT is space, Space WoW, Asteroid Minecraft, Second Spacelife, or Trade Wars 2016. EvE has elements of ALL these games blended together spiced up with a bit of camaraderie, sociopathy, greed, and generosity. So EvE needs its mousy miners just as it needs its ne'er-do-wells. Getting rid of playstyles or whole occupations can only stymie player retention. --Gadget Great post. This is a great point and one I didn't mention. The Status quo IS actually pretty darn good and we should really realize/remember that. *"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17764	Posted - 2016.08.01 16:41:16 - [701] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: My dear boy, the Skiff has a lower base yield then the Mackinaw and Hulk, that is why in areas where CODE are too lazy to operate you see them. But most people who go for yield go for the Retreiver as Brokk quite rightly pointed out, it is cheap too and the yield will make a big enough difference over a couple of hours to more than pay for its inability to tank a single Catalyst.... Which illiterates my point, the barge balance was a bad one as ships like the covetor are relegated to the bin.
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 528	Posted - 2016.08.01 16:44:50 - [702] - Quote Nah. I have a covetor with only two strip miners because I like the third slot for a cloak. Doesn't really matter as CCP has a barge rebalance in the pipeline, but do you know what I really miss? The scythe of olde. A proper cruiser with mining capabilities. There might be a niche for armed haulers and armed miners... guess we'll have to wait and see on that one.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17764	Posted - 2016.08.01 16:45:08 - [703] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: There is a reason Skiffs mine in flocks. On its own, it is indeed quite dead quite fast. Skiff gets more tank than some fully fitted cruisers right out of the box. They are anything but easily killable.
xxxTRUSTxxx Galactic Rangers EVEolution. 457	Posted - 2016.08.01 16:49:05 - [704] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: Dracvlad wrote: There is a rotten smell and it is not just coming from Jenn's megaphone... and that means exactly what? the shite you peddle doesn't smell, only everyone elses? So what is your view on how the wreck EHP of freighters got changed to 15,000 EHP from 500 EHP, was it done with the purest of intentions, or was it because the AG was starting to gank wrecks, answers on a post card. To help in your journey of discovery you will find thet the person who jumped on to this was Endie whose corp was at one time the biggest industrial gankers in Eve. He may be a paton saint of Eve for all I know, but the timing looks rather suspect, so if my feeling that this was a bit of a fix to favour the gankers smalls then it sure does smell. why side track from the reality that people who do not fly in a manner that promotes their survival is the issue here and not the ehp of a wreck. 500 ehp on freighter wreck is very very low so perhaps it was an update that was coming anyway. Everyone is aware of the dangers of being ganked but they decide to take chances, that's their decision, sometimes they get away with it and think yea i got this until they go pop. some rethink and change their plan, others jump on the forums and demand they be heard and changes made.
xxxTRUSTxxx Galactic Rangers EVEolution. 457	Posted - 2016.08.01 16:50:29 - [705] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: There is a reason Skiffs mine in flocks. On its own, it is indeed quite dead quite fast. Skiff gets more tank than some fully fitted cruisers right out of the box. They are anything but easily killable. yup,, and a well fit one can hit 120k hit points easy. but working in a fleet does add support. that's a given.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17764	Posted - 2016.08.01 16:53:11 - [706] - Quote xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: baltec1 wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: There is a reason Skiffs mine in flocks. On its own, it is indeed quite dead quite fast. Skiff gets more tank than some fully fitted cruisers right out of the box. They are anything but easily killable. yup,, and a well fit one can hit 120k hit points easy. but working in a fleet does add support. that's a given. Oh true, a gang of these things can be downright nasty.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5054	Posted - 2016.08.01 16:55:51 - [707] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: That sentence is becoming the ever-green exxcuse to justify this ganking/wardec mechanics, too easy. I would love to have CCP removing some fit slots on every mining/hauling ship and integrate warp core stabs and a much stronger EHP on ships. Just to force gankers to use 4/5 ships for the ganking. No one complains for organized multi/ship ganking even in hisec, as no one complains if he lose expensive/big ships in wormhole or nullsec to small gangs/fleet. It's something acceptable for anyone. Free one ship ganking is totally different.....and the excuse for it is always the same "hisec not 100% sure"... Yes, HS is not 100% has always been this way. People like you whine for changes and the law of unintended consequences keeps biting you in the ass and you just don't learn. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5055	Posted - 2016.08.01 16:57:11 - [708] - Quote Geronimo McVain wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: That sentence is becoming the ever-green exxcuse to justify this ganking/wardec mechanics, too easy. I would love to have CCP removing some fit slots on every mining/hauling ship and integrate warp core stabs and a much stronger EHP on ships. That's not really the problem. If you do your math you can kill any ship with almost 100% success rate. It must become unreliable so that you may, and just may, get away with less effort and on other occasions you will fail even with a lot more effort. Give E-War bonusses to freighters and industrials for burst jammers and target breakers. It is a two way street dude. Yes, if you do your math right and the other guy doesn't, then you are assured a kill. You are the other guy not doing your math right. Fix it. Do the math right. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5055	Posted - 2016.08.01 17:00:24 - [709] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: "Being able to ruin somebodies day is one of the cornerstones of Eve, hisec is not exempt from that cornerstone and CCP Falcons statement reflects it." Maybe if you make it very easy for players that love to ruin somebodies day so they can do it on a industrial scale the result is that you have less users playing.... maybe... Let me see.... 1. You have to first herd dozens of cats (get that fleet formed). 2. You have to get some guy who is good at bumping. 3. You have to set up voice comms. 4. You have to have a logistics network to get stuff where your cats in point 1 can use it. 5. You have to find an idiot. 6. Gank. If you look at just 6 or maybe even 5 & 6 yeah, it looks easy. Note, I am skipping things like setting up corporations, alliances, the stuff to check APIs, etc. Maybe you should try ganking. See what is involved vs. spouting off and displaying your ignorance for everyone to see. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5055	Posted - 2016.08.01 17:03:08 - [710] - Quote Giovanni erkelens2 wrote: NotTheSmartestCookie wrote: If I want to roleplay I always imagine myself dispensing justice in a Judge-Dread-like fashion vs rapacious mining companies and their lick-spittle henchmen. Invariably these mining cartels are guilty of a combination of the following: 1> wholesale environmental destruction, 2> tax/permit evasion and 3> using illegal AI to run their operations. Small wonder it always feels good to be in CODE. 1: wholesale environmental destruction, lol, dude, really ? 2: thats what player corporations are for, to benefit their ceo and members, with or without taxes, nobody is forced to pay taxes, neither it is mandatory, as for permits, they werent there in the first place, its just something you tools made up, nobody should be forced to purchase something from a third party to make optimal use of a primary gameplay element. 3: at least something relevant comes out of you, on this i agree, using Bots to mine non stop, or doing whatever else in that case is unfair to everyone, and creates unfair competition. Its role playing lighten up. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 71	Posted - 2016.08.01 17:07:36 - [711] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: "Being able to ruin somebodies day is one of the cornerstones of Eve, hisec is not exempt from that cornerstone and CCP Falcons statement reflects it." Maybe if you make it very easy for players that love to ruin somebodies day so they can do it on a industrial scale the result is that you have less users playing.... maybe... Let me see.... 1. You have to first herd dozens of cats (get that fleet formed). 2. You have to get some guy who is good at bumping. 3. You have to set up voice comms. 4. You have to have a logistics network to get stuff where your cats in point 1 can use it. 5. You have to find an idiot. 6. Gank. If you look at just 6 or maybe even 5 & 6 yeah, it looks easy. Note, I am skipping things like setting up corporations, alliances, the stuff to check APIs, etc. Maybe you should try ganking. See what is involved vs. spouting off and displaying your ignorance for everyone to see. I think situation is quite different. Situation is that CCP prefers to keep it ambiguous. HS miners keep mining in unrealistical ships. Gankers keep killing some of them in a unrealistical scenario. At the end of the joke gankers only scratch a little part of the ISKs that transit in Hisec, and it's still more than enough to keep them well feeded and to let them plex a lot for free. It's like the mosquitoes, fat mosquitoes draining some blood but not killing anyone because the number are low compared to the total of players. It's pretty sad honestly, and it can made realistic assumptions related to the preference of some game developers to them for reasons I don't personally know nor care.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5055	Posted - 2016.08.01 17:07:54 - [712] - Quote Giovanni erkelens2 wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: "Being able to ruin somebodies day is one of the cornerstones of Eve, hisec is not exempt from that cornerstone and CCP Falcons statement reflects it." Maybe if you make it very easy for players that love to ruin somebodies day so they can do it on a industrial scale the result is that you have less users playing.... maybe... Hisec is mechanically safer than it ever has been, if you don't do something daft. Suicide ganking has never been more labour intensive and expensive, war has never offered such a poor return on investment; the only reason that there is any risk left in hisec is that the people who provide it have adapted to each and every change that sought to curtail their activities. Can flipping is gone. Awoxing is for all intents and purposes gone as it can be simply avoided by flipping a "switch" The safety catch was implemented to stop people accidentally flagging themselves for Concordokken. Concord response times have been buffed, as have their ships. Crimewatch 2.0 simplified the confusing maze that used to be hisec aggression mechanics, and allows anybody to shoot a suspect. Mining ships have been changed to offer choice. Haulers have been changed to offer choice. Insurance has been removed from ships used to gank. War has never been more expensive or hard to prosecute. Suicide ganking is now an expensive and labour intensive activity. TL;DR You're safer than you have ever been. God help you if Helicity shows up and organises another epic event to show you how unsafe it can be with a big wallet and a concerted effort by hundreds of players. suicide ganking isnt expensive, nor it is labour intensive, unless you target big frieghters, but even then its simple and doesnt require much more effort than steering a ship and pressing a button. as for solo ganking, all u do is to sit in some spot, wait for a target to come in, and press a button and poof, done. target gone. awoxing isnt gone, only for corp hopping awoxers, awoxing corps can still do whatever they want. Depends. If I want to suicide gank miners I can do it without alot of labor--i.e. I can get a t3 battle cruiser and gank away....and lose ISK. Or I can expend effort and maybe gank for profit with a group. So you are simply wrong. Go ahead, try it. Try ganking for profit. Start a group and go out and do it. Come back and tell us if it was "easy" or required more effort than you thought. 1. You'll need a corporation (at least). 2. You'll likely need voice comms. 3. You'll need some sort of logistics (when your gankers get sec status so low you'll need to provide them with ships). 4. You'll need to set up communications like jabber or slack so you can send out messages on when fleets will be forming. You can rely on in-game mail, but it will be less helpful. 5. Set up some sort of API check so you can at least try to reduce your risk of being scammed and robbed. 6. You'll need people to scout. 7. You'll need people to bump if you are going after haulers. 8. And you'll need an FC, maybe more than one so you can avoid burn out and still provide content to your members. Tell me where on that list I am wrong. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5055	Posted - 2016.08.01 17:11:42 - [713] - Quote NotTheSmartestCookie wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: That sentence is becoming the ever-green exxcuse to justify this ganking/wardec mechanics, too easy. I would love to have CCP removing some fit slots on every mining/hauling ship and integrate warp core stabs and a much stronger EHP on ships. Just to force gankers to use 4/5 ships for the ganking. No one complains for organized multi/ship ganking even in hisec, as no one complains if he lose expensive/big ships in wormhole or nullsec to small gangs/fleet. It's something acceptable for anyone. Free one ship ganking is totally different.....and the excuse for it is always the same "hisec not 100% sure"... An extra-EHP mining barge, I guess we could call it a Procurer. A quick view on the forum will show you that there is an extra-ordinary amount of whining not only about barges/exhumers being ganked, but also about multi-ship ganking vs freighters. An analysis of the killmails will show that most of the victims did not take advantage of the various buffs offered by CCP, but still fit for max yield or hauling capacity. Note however that the whiners don't call for better fitting tutorials, but just for more buffs for miners and nerfs to gankers. In any case CCP has already announced another round of buffs for mining barges (details pending). Unfortunately this seems to have thrown the miner-whine-train into overdrive. FYI, I looked at the ganks for retrievers and skiffs for July 26. Went to zkill and copied and pasted the data into excel. I removed LS and NS kills. For retrievers there were 33 kills. There might have been some war dec kills in there, I did not check, so that is an upper bound. For skiffs there were 2 HS deaths, these I did look at since there were only 2 and those both looked very much like war decs. Skiffs also had a number of kills on there as well. So Lucy is just an ignoramus. Literally. You want more safety, get in a skiff, or its T1 variant, the procuror. Both can fit substantial tank and can be a nasty surprise for somebody not expecting tanked skiffs or procurors. Put them in a group with combat boosts and they are nastier. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5055	Posted - 2016.08.01 17:14:28 - [714] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: I think situation is quite different. Situation is that CCP prefers to keep it ambiguous. HS miners keep mining in unrealistical ships. Gankers keep killing some of them in a unrealistical scenario. At the end of the joke gankers only scratch a little part of the ISKs that transit in Hisec, and it's still more than enough to keep them well feeded and to let them plex a lot for free. It's like the mosquitoes, fat mosquitoes draining some blood but not killing anyone because the number are low compared to the total of players. It's pretty sad honestly, and it can made realistic assumptions related to the preference of some game developers to them for reasons I don't personally know nor care. I'm sorry but you are just flat out ignorant. Do you have any idea of how big the tank can be on a skiff? How about north of 100,000 ehp? Considerably more with combat boosts. And if it is like mosquitoes, do the smart thing and do the in game variant of applying some bug repellant, stop whining to mommy (CCP) about the mosquitoes. Learn to fend for yourself. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Pandora Carrollon Kingsman Tailors 509	Posted - 2016.08.01 17:14:56 - [715] - Quote Drav- No, I get your point and am not offended by it. I also get the CODE point as well. My only issue with CODE is the concept of 'ownership/change of HiSec' or the 'right' to just ruin someone elses game play for the sake of some RP fantasy that is simply a justification to be a jerk for being a jerks sake. I actually don't care much about the play style as long as the people behind the play style don't swallow the Kool-Aid so much that they actually believe the garbage they try to sell to everyone else. Propaganda is fine, actually believing your own propaganda is dangerous to you and everyone around you. As to HiSec AFK miners, CODE has a point... to a point. It's a valid play style if you accept the idea that all play styles are valid. Is it 'good' for the game... eh, that's a matter of perspective, james' zombie corps says it's bad but frankly it doesn't bother me at all since it's so low profit. Is it good for the 'player' choosing to do this? No, that's probably where CODE is dead on correct but it can be argued that the CODE play style is just as damaging as the AFK mining one, which is exactly what you've been arguing. Where I think you're making a mistake is trying to link it to new player loss. I just don't see the evidence to support the idea that ganking causes massive player loss. It's actually so rare, that it would get lost in just the statistical noise of player loss so it's almost impossible to quantify. Yeah, we can be pretty certain SOMEONE has left the game due to it, but if that's countered by 100 people leaving the game due to the games complexity... it's basically a moot point. Look, the common ground here is that if we all agree that HiSec should not be 100% safe, then it's just an issue as to what degree of safety should exist and who protects that safety factor. I personally think HiSec is okay as is with the new bumping limit. You can't bug someone for 15 minutes straight, multiple times during a run. That puts a limit on the obnoxiousness of people. Personally, I think it could've been done differently, like instead of instawarping, maybe after 3 minutes of bumping, the target ship is given Kill Rights on all the ships within 100km of it. It can either open fire (with no Concord interference and the other ships DON'T get to do that, they either have to leave or suicide gank the target) or give other pilots in the area the kill rights and let them come take them out for the target. There are a lot of ways to balance this out, but arguing this for 35+ pages is a little silly. Be Positive GÇó Change yourself first, New Eden will come later GÇó EVE is Awesome GÇó CCP isn't the enemy GÇó Players are people too GÇó Where're the clothing blueprints GÇó Yeah, I'm still learning this game -- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17765	Posted - 2016.08.01 17:15:12 - [716] - Quote So to put things into context the Skiff gets 26.1k ehp (without any skills or mods), the oracle battlecruiser only gets 8.33k ehp and the Scorpion battleship only has 1.4k more ehp. That is utterly bonkers. A more realistic number would be around the 7k ehp mark which puts it on par with a combat recon and then give it more fitting slots and up the CPU and PG so that you can fit it reasonably but not enough so that you can fit the best of everything, just like every other ship. The bonuses too make little sense, its supposed to be the more brawler of bunch so why give it a 150% bonus to strip miner yield? All that does is cut into the draw of getting a hulk which should be the go to ship for yield. Lose that bonus and the hulk become much more viable an option than today. It doesn't need 3 bonuses. The ore bay is equally a bad idea, it means you can do nothing to expand your hold to take in more ore which means less options. We should be giving people as many options as possible with ships. Frankly this change seems to only be there to stop people from hurting themselves. Lastly, I honestly think these ships should be armour tank. Why? Because making them armour tankers means they are forced to make hard choices between tank, capacity and yield in the same way that people such as myself are forced to chose between tank, firepower, speed, application and so on. People making hard choices, even if they are bad ones, is good for the game.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5055	Posted - 2016.08.01 17:22:58 - [717] - Quote baltec1 wrote: So to put things into context the Skiff gets 26.1k ehp (without any skills or mods), the oracle battlecruiser only gets 8.33k ehp and the Scorpion battleship only has 1.4k more ehp. That is utterly bonkers. A more realistic number would be around the 7k ehp mark which puts it on par with a combat recon and then give it more fitting slots and up the CPU and PG so that you can fit it reasonably but not enough so that you can fit the best of everything, just like every other ship. The bonuses too make little sense, its supposed to be the more brawler of bunch so why give it a 150% bonus to strip miner yield? All that does is cut into the draw of getting a hulk which should be the go to ship for yield. Lose that bonus and the hulk become much more viable an option than today. It doesn't need 3 bonuses. The ore bay is equally a bad idea, it means you can do nothing to expand your hold to take in more ore which means less options. We should be giving people as many options as possible with ships. Frankly this change seems to only be there to stop people from hurting themselves. Lastly, I honestly think these ships should be armour tank. Why? Because making them armour tankers means they are forced to make hard choices between tank, capacity and yield in the same way that people such as myself are forced to chose between tank, firepower, speed, application and so on. People making hard choices, even if they are bad ones, is good for the game. No, what is really bonkers is despite this these BadsGäó do not use the ship and do not fit a tank. And they still show up here and whine and cry and complain. CCP has handed them to tools to make ganking mining ships quite difficult (the procuror also has a damn impressive tank as well) and yet these people refuse to use them. Now that is bonkers, IMO. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5055	Posted - 2016.08.01 17:24:19 - [718] - Quote Pandora Carrollon wrote: I personally think HiSec is okay as is with the new bumping limit. You can't bug someone for 15 minutes straight, multiple times during a run. That puts a limit on the obnoxiousness of people. Personally, I think it could've been done differently, like instead of instawarping, maybe after 3 minutes of bumping, the target ship is given Kill Rights on all the ships within 100km of it. It can either open fire (with no Concord interference and the other ships DON'T get to do that, they either have to leave or suicide gank the target) or give other pilots in the area the kill rights and let them come take them out for the target. Yes because rewarding imprudence and foolishness is always good. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 71	Posted - 2016.08.01 18:01:51 - [719] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: I think situation is quite different. Situation is that CCP prefers to keep it ambiguous. HS miners keep mining in unrealistical ships. Gankers keep killing some of them in a unrealistical scenario. At the end of the joke gankers only scratch a little part of the ISKs that transit in Hisec, and it's still more than enough to keep them well feeded and to let them plex a lot for free. It's like the mosquitoes, fat mosquitoes draining some blood but not killing anyone because the number are low compared to the total of players. It's pretty sad honestly, and it can made realistic assumptions related to the preference of some game developers to them for reasons I don't personally know nor care. I'm sorry but you are just flat out ignorant. Do you have any idea of how big the tank can be on a skiff? How about north of 100,000 ehp? Considerably more with combat boosts. And if it is like mosquitoes, do the smart thing and do the in game variant of applying some bug repellant, stop whining to mommy (CCP) about the mosquitoes. Learn to fend for yourself. Mosquitoes is referred to the fact they only gank a very little part of all the mining/hauling ships that are scattered across hisec so even if the amount makes them rich in term of isks, they could be thousand times richer if they could gank all ( obviously I'm saying just for example) the mining/hauling ships around. So it's basically something that can be tollerated by ccp stuff, they make players to be annoyed and they contribute to make Eve have the fame of a mmo full of ***ks ( or better, the only mmo where they can have much fun ) but it's only part of what is maybe affecting the player base. Just to give you an example I don't spend all my time in hisec mining, maybe I spend like 20 hours/week in total when I'm not wardecced but I never experienced a single gank in about 6 months.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5055	Posted - 2016.08.01 18:13:39 - [720] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Mosquitoes is referred to the fact they only gank a very little part of all the mining/hauling ships that are scattered across hisec so even if the amount makes them rich in term of isks, they could be thousand times richer if they could gank all ( obviously I'm saying just for example) the mining/hauling ships around. My guess is they can't. Such a thing would be self-defeating in the end, even if they could pull it off, and trust me when mining ships had much less tank AND we had Hulkaggedon (a contest over a period of time to see who could gank the most mining ships) not all mining ships were ganked. Quote: So it's basically something that can be tollerated by ccp stuff, they make players to be annoyed and they contribute to make Eve have the fame of a mmo full of *ks ( or better, the only mmo where they can have much fun ) but it's only part of what is maybe affecting the player base. You need to stop this. It is misleading and contrary to public statements by CCP Devs. That is, they don't tolerate it, they see this kind of thing as a feature. Quote: Just to give you an example I don't spend all my time in hisec mining, maybe I spend like 20 hours/week in total when I'm not wardecced but I never experienced a single gank in about 6 months. Then where is the problem? Ganking, by your own admission, is small compared to the entire population. You yourself haven't been ganked in 6 months. This does not looking like a raging problem. CCP's own analysis of "new players" shows that about 1% are ganked in their first 90 days....and they tend to stay with the game longer than those not ganked. Now with all averages, there will be some who stay less because they were ganked, but still this is, at best**, a contributing factor to people leaving the game and quite possibly a small one. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 72	Posted - 2016.08.01 18:19:42 - [721] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: Mosquitoes is referred to the fact they only gank a very little part of all the mining/hauling ships that are scattered across hisec so even if the amount makes them rich in term of isks, they could be thousand times richer if they could gank all ( obviously I'm saying just for example) the mining/hauling ships around. My guess is they can't. Such a thing would be self-defeating in the end, even if they could pull it off, and trust me when mining ships had much less tank AND we had Hulkaggedon (a contest over a period of time to see who could gank the most mining ships) not all mining ships were ganked. Quote: So it's basically something that can be tollerated by ccp stuff, they make players to be annoyed and they contribute to make Eve have the fame of a mmo full of *ks ( or better, the only mmo where they can have much fun ) but it's only part of what is maybe affecting the player base. You need to stop this. It is misleading and contrary to public statements by CCP Devs. That is, they don't tolerate it, they see this kind of thing as a feature. Quote: Just to give you an example I don't spend all my time in hisec mining, maybe I spend like 20 hours/week in total when I'm not wardecced but I never experienced a single gank in about 6 months. Then where is the problem? Ganking, by your own admission, is small compared to the entire population. You yourself haven't been ganked in 6 months. This does not looking like a raging problem. CCP's own analysis of "new players" shows that about 1% are ganked in their first 90 days....and they tend to stay with the game longer than those not ganked. Now with all averages, there will be some who stay less because they were ganked, but still this is, at best**, a contributing factor to people leaving the game and quite possibly a small one. I never said ganking is a big or the biggest part of the player's loss imo, it's one of the factors. There are more nasty things like wardecs that damage calm hisec players social experience quite much and that are much more dangerous imo. What I find odious is the attitude of some ( not all of them ) gankers toward the ganked players, deemed stupid, greedy, little pigs and many other adjectives, while actually they simply are the quiet cows they daily milk for their plexes, undisturbed.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7861	Posted - 2016.08.01 18:34:43 - [722] - Quote NotTheSmartestCookie wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Indeed. I skilled up at the worst times, like the great malaise of 2014 for example, in hope for a better day, and some pipe dream about real live events (like from the Dropbear era) coming back. The entire sphere of sci-fi and the dystopic feel of the game is gone. ...snip... AG has kept me in the game longer actually, but seeing how fast we can get nerfed, what's the point? Screw it. Glad I never got around to putting that Eve sticker on my car. Would be feeling stupid if I had. Wants a dystopion sci-fi setting Complains about CODE. I guess you don't have a strong need for internal consistency. If I want to roleplay I always imagine myself dispensing justice in a Judge-Dread-like fashion vs rapacious mining companies and their lick-spittle henchmen. Invariably these mining cartels are guilty of a combination of the following: 1> wholesale environmental destruction, 2> tax/permit evasion and 3> using illegal AI to run their operations. Small wonder it always feels good to be in CODE. You ever see one of those horror movies where if the first intended victim had a gun and the antagonist was mortal, the whole film would be less than 10 minutes long? Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7861	Posted - 2016.08.01 18:39:33 - [723] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: March rabbit wrote: So this is anecdotal evidence. Thanks. So is everything said running conter to it. Ccp have stated that one of the largest factors that negativly effect retention is non-engagement with the community, Ganking objectivly produces this , just look at the ammount of op's we have had recently with fire in their belly about it. The only reason they dont ed up as antiganking white knights is the established ones are hilariously incompitant and incapable of forming a counter movement, so the come here an **** and moan about it not being fair. Yeah im aware thats my biased opinion but thats all year going to get from this thread anyway. Edit: I hate this phone. Funny but every time I told people I played Eve, the number one complaint was other players. Ganking was not high on the list though. About midway perhaps. Nerd drama and general ass-hattery where higher. Even when you beat someone at their own game, the sperging nerd-rage is enough to make you wonder if you even want to be associated with them in any way, not even in the "playing the same game". E1 for example. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17766	Posted - 2016.08.01 18:47:31 - [724] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: March rabbit wrote: So this is anecdotal evidence. Thanks. So is everything said running conter to it. Ccp have stated that one of the largest factors that negativly effect retention is non-engagement with the community, Ganking objectivly produces this , just look at the ammount of op's we have had recently with fire in their belly about it. The only reason they dont ed up as antiganking white knights is the established ones are hilariously incompitant and incapable of forming a counter movement, so the come here an **** and moan about it not being fair. Yeah im aware thats my biased opinion but thats all year going to get from this thread anyway. Edit: I hate this phone. Funny but every time I told people I played Eve, the number one complaint was other players. Ganking was not high on the list though. About midway perhaps. Nerd drama and general ass-hattery where higher. Even when you beat someone at their own game, the sperging nerd-rage is enough to make you wonder if you even want to be associated with them in any way, not even in the "playing the same game". E1 for example. Ever been on X-box live?
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7861	Posted - 2016.08.01 18:53:43 - [725] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: Dracvlad wrote: xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: Dracvlad wrote: There is a rotten smell and it is not just coming from Jenn's megaphone... and that means exactly what? the shite you peddle doesn't smell, only everyone elses? So what is your view on how the wreck EHP of freighters got changed to 15,000 EHP from 500 EHP, was it done with the purest of intentions, or was it because the AG was starting to gank wrecks, answers on a post card. To help in your journey of discovery you will find thet the person who jumped on to this was Endie whose corp was at one time the biggest industrial gankers in Eve. He may be a paton saint of Eve for all I know, but the timing looks rather suspect, so if my feeling that this was a bit of a fix to favour the gankers smalls then it sure does smell. Unintended consequences followed by a weird sense of 'balance' to the nerf/buff cycle. The change was made for reasons related to controlling a battlefield. Quick removal of wrecks removes some warp-in opportunities and locations. The wrecks were being blapped with a single gun, meaning that they were easily - and near instantly- cleaned up leaving nothing to create an easy warp-in point from. Increasing the HP of the wrecks added more meaningful choices: Appoint more resources to clean the wrecks; take more time to clean the wrecks; or ignore the wrecks and just accept being warped in on top of. It was brought up in the forums how this change might affect HS privateering, but it was also noted that the EHP increase for all ships due to the DCU changes (and changes to Hull resists) would 'balance' out the wreck changes. --Gadget Yes a good reason as people like me agree with, however why did it suddenly get picked up on by Endie? Ask yourself another question it was like that for years, why change now, and in big fights there are so many wrecks its difficult to blow them all up. As for it being balanced, no it was not balanced out at all, because it removed the one fun part of doing AG stuff. If you could have heard some of the ganker comms when the wreck got blown up you would understand, some of them went utterly apeshite at it, a certain player who is no longer in Eve went on a 20 minute rant over the wreck being blown up. Perhaps it is because Eve is really a game of rainbows and unicrons for gankers. All I know is, when gankers use a mechanic, it takes CCP a long time to change it after much debate and fanfare. As soon as AG figures something out that's effective: "BOOM: headshot". Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7861	Posted - 2016.08.01 18:57:06 - [726] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: March rabbit wrote: So this is anecdotal evidence. Thanks. So is everything said running conter to it. Ccp have stated that one of the largest factors that negativly effect retention is non-engagement with the community, Ganking objectivly produces this , just look at the ammount of op's we have had recently with fire in their belly about it. The only reason they dont ed up as antiganking white knights is the established ones are hilariously incompitant and incapable of forming a counter movement, so the come here an **** and moan about it not being fair. Yeah im aware thats my biased opinion but thats all year going to get from this thread anyway. Edit: I hate this phone. Funny but every time I told people I played Eve, the number one complaint was other players. Ganking was not high on the list though. About midway perhaps. Nerd drama and general ass-hattery where higher. Even when you beat someone at their own game, the sperging nerd-rage is enough to make you wonder if you even want to be associated with them in any way, not even in the "playing the same game". E1 for example. Ever been on X-box live? Once. But I tire easily of feeling like nuclear war or killer viruses are justified. Harshes my buzz so to speak. The Physical Removal Principle works (regardless if removing someone else or removing yourself). Lots of people have done that with Eve. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 286	Posted - 2016.08.01 18:58:33 - [727] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Ever been on X-box live? Hisses and makes ALL the religious signs --Scared Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17165	Posted - 2016.08.01 19:20:23 - [728] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: baltec1 wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: March rabbit wrote: So this is anecdotal evidence. Thanks. So is everything said running conter to it. Ccp have stated that one of the largest factors that negativly effect retention is non-engagement with the community, Ganking objectivly produces this , just look at the ammount of op's we have had recently with fire in their belly about it. The only reason they dont ed up as antiganking white knights is the established ones are hilariously incompitant and incapable of forming a counter movement, so the come here an **** and moan about it not being fair. Yeah im aware thats my biased opinion but thats all year going to get from this thread anyway. Edit: I hate this phone. Funny but every time I told people I played Eve, the number one complaint was other players. Ganking was not high on the list though. About midway perhaps. Nerd drama and general ass-hattery where higher. Even when you beat someone at their own game, the sperging nerd-rage is enough to make you wonder if you even want to be associated with them in any way, not even in the "playing the same game". E1 for example. Ever been on X-box live? Once. But I tire easily of feeling like nuclear war or killer viruses are justified. Harshes my buzz so to speak. The Physical Removal Principle works (regardless if removing someone else or removing yourself). Lots of people have done that with Eve. Tell you what so, you go tell the rest of eve to stob being beligerant gobshites to one another and we'll take it from there . Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7861	Posted - 2016.08.01 19:23:36 - [729] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Tell you what so, you go tell the rest of eve to stob being beligerant gobshites to one another and we'll take it from there . We're trying to tell CCP not to pick sides. That's all. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
zoolkhan Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan 6	Posted - 2016.08.01 19:42:27 - [730] - Quote Shiloh Templeton wrote: Many more options - many of which are free to play on cell phones. you gotta be kidding me. comparing cell phone apps with eve-online. Anyhow.. i am still here :-) 13 years...
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 68	Posted - 2016.08.01 19:43:59 - [731] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Tell you what so, you go tell the rest of eve to stob being beligerant gobshites to one another and we'll take it from there . We're trying to tell CCP not to pick sides. That's all. CCP designed a game to be harsh, dark and gritty. They picked sides before anyone started playing. This seems to be hard for some people to grasp. If EVE is to stay EVE then CCP will always side with a harsher play style. Accept it, adapt or move on seem to be the only choices.
Caco De'mon New Order Logistics CODE. 16	Posted - 2016.08.01 19:54:34 - [732] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: What I find odious is the attitude of some ( not all of them ) gankers toward the ganked players, deemed stupid, greedy, little pigs and many other adjectives, while actually they simply are the quiet cows they daily milk for their plexes, undisturbed. Don't confuse adjectives used here with what's said in local. It's against the code to flame or abuse others in local so...not to mention that pissing people off more isn't the mandate. I honestly try to help...granted it's through destruction but that's how creation works. *"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5057	Posted - 2016.08.01 20:27:39 - [733] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: I never said ganking is a big or the biggest part of the player's loss imo, it's one of the factors. There are more nasty things like wardecs that damage calm hisec players social experience quite much and that are much more dangerous imo. What I find odious is the attitude of some ( not all of them ) gankers toward the ganked players, deemed stupid, greedy, little pigs and many other adjectives, while actually they simply are the quiet cows they daily milk for their plexes, undisturbed. Look, if you get ganked you screwed up. Maybe it was just plain old vanilla ignorance, but if you get all righteous and indignant that is stupid. And if their profiting off of ganks makes you annoyed...well, you can try to tell people what they are doing wrong. Hell I've done it here on the forums many, many, many times. Usually receiving considerable scorn for it as well...as if being imprudent and foolish is their God given right. As for war decs I have already outlined how to largely avoid them. It is not that hard, if you are simply turtling up till the dec ends that is your choice. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5057	Posted - 2016.08.01 20:28:25 - [734] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: NotTheSmartestCookie wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Indeed. I skilled up at the worst times, like the great malaise of 2014 for example, in hope for a better day, and some pipe dream about real live events (like from the Dropbear era) coming back. The entire sphere of sci-fi and the dystopic feel of the game is gone. ...snip... AG has kept me in the game longer actually, but seeing how fast we can get nerfed, what's the point? Screw it. Glad I never got around to putting that Eve sticker on my car. Would be feeling stupid if I had. Wants a dystopion sci-fi setting Complains about CODE. I guess you don't have a strong need for internal consistency. If I want to roleplay I always imagine myself dispensing justice in a Judge-Dread-like fashion vs rapacious mining companies and their lick-spittle henchmen. Invariably these mining cartels are guilty of a combination of the following: 1> wholesale environmental destruction, 2> tax/permit evasion and 3> using illegal AI to run their operations. Small wonder it always feels good to be in CODE. You ever see one of those horror movies where if the first intended victim had a gun and the antagonist was mortal, the whole film would be less than 10 minutes long? Non-sequitur much? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5057	Posted - 2016.08.01 20:36:03 - [735] - Quote Caco De'mon wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: What I find odious is the attitude of some ( not all of them ) gankers toward the ganked players, deemed stupid, greedy, little pigs and many other adjectives, while actually they simply are the quiet cows they daily milk for their plexes, undisturbed. Don't confuse adjectives used here with what's said in local. It's against the code to flame or abuse others in local so...not to mention that pissing people off more isn't the mandate. I honestly try to help...granted it's through destruction but that's how creation works. A student of Schumpeter? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2072	Posted - 2016.08.01 20:42:43 - [736] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Tell you what so, you go tell the rest of eve to stob being beligerant gobshites to one another and we'll take it from there . We're trying to tell CCP not to pick sides. That's all. That's what I would say too. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 71	Posted - 2016.08.01 20:48:13 - [737] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Tell you what so, you go tell the rest of eve to stob being beligerant gobshites to one another and we'll take it from there . We're trying to tell CCP not to pick sides. That's all. That's what I would say too. Just in case you missed it: CCP designed a game to be harsh, dark and gritty. They picked sides before anyone started playing. This seems to be hard for some people to grasp. If EVE is to stay EVE then CCP will always side with a harsher play style. Accept it, adapt or move on seem to be the only choices.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 360	Posted - 2016.08.01 20:53:37 - [738] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Tell you what so, you go tell the rest of eve to stob being beligerant gobshites to one another and we'll take it from there . We're trying to tell CCP not to pick sides. That's all. That's what I would say too. Just in case you missed it: CCP designed a game to be harsh, dark and gritty. They picked sides before anyone started playing. This seems to be hard for some people to grasp. If EVE is to stay EVE then CCP will always side with a harsher play style. Accept it, adapt or move on seem to be the only choices. Lies. CCP keeps denying my request to spawn concord at will to kill random people who annoy me in local... And they won't even give me a polaris frigate fitted up with concord weaponry to murder you all in... Those would be harsher play styles - but for some reason they don't like the idea
Pandora Carrollon Kingsman Tailors 510	Posted - 2016.08.01 20:54:34 - [739] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Yes because rewarding imprudence and foolishness is always good. Nobody is being rewarded with anything. Reward implies that CCP actively advocates an AFK mining play style. Just the opposite appears to be true as it's the worst common ISK generator in the game. HiSec AFK mining is a horrific trade of game time for relatively low ISK return. For that terrible trade off, it's relatively safe to do. If two companies with identical resources exist, one in HiSec and one in NullSec, mine for 30 days in their respective 'safe' areas (High, Concord guarding: Null, guarded gates, etc.) the NullSec corp will be piles upon piles richer than the HiSec corp. The reason the HiSec corp exists is they don't have to fight and keep up the military assets the NullSec corp would. Your comment utterly denies the right of choice of a corp not to engage in ship to ship PvP and that goes against everything the sandbox is made for. You have to make room for everyone to play or risk the game's very existence. Don't even bother with the EVE is PvP comments because AFK mining is also PvP. EVE is entirely PvP. Another way to put it is: you either respect the idea that all play styles are valid or risk your own being eliminated because it's not recognized by the powers that be that it's valid. Just ask the Mercenaries how they feel about their play style being nerfed into an endangered species. I suggest everyone let go of their bias toward their own play styles and allow everyone to play and have fun in the box, using the tools CCP gives us to build our sand empires the way we all feel like building in, and playing with them. Even the DEV's need to be careful of, and respect this concept, which I guarantee you they are well aware of. Sometimes they have to choose the lesser of two evils (breaking something to fix something else) but it's frustrating as heck to those of us that watch these changes and aren't told how they are going to fix what they just broke. So I understand your frustrations Teckos, I get Dravclad's, and can even grasp the core of what James 315 is saying (after you shovel all the **** off the top of it)... however what that should tell all of you is that the game is pretty well balanced at the moment since you guys are arguing over moving the balance point in micro fractions of distance. Everyone please stop trying to change the game to your benefit and if you advocate a change, make sure it's beneficial to everyone. I'm getting tired of the HiSec player whining, either from the ones that want to avoid fighting starships or those that only seem to want to fight starships. I guess that's why I'm moving our corp to NullSec. The HiSec whining is worse than the PvP losses I'll be facing and I can replace the cost of any lost ship in a matter of a couple of hours. Be Positive GÇó Change yourself first, New Eden will come later GÇó EVE is Awesome GÇó CCP isn't the enemy GÇó Players are people too GÇó Where're the clothing blueprints GÇó Yeah, I'm still learning this game -- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2072	Posted - 2016.08.01 21:02:49 - [740] - Quote Pandora Carrollon wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Yes because rewarding imprudence and foolishness is always good. Nobody is being rewarded with anything. Reward implies that CCP actively advocates an AFK mining play style. Just the opposite appears to be true as it's the worst common ISK generator in the game. HiSec AFK mining is a horrific trade of game time for relatively low ISK return. For that terrible trade off, it's relatively safe to do. If two companies with identical resources exist, one in HiSec and one in NullSec, mine for 30 days in their respective 'safe' areas (High, Concord guarding: Null, guarded gates, etc.) the NullSec corp will be piles upon piles richer than the HiSec corp. The reason the HiSec corp exists is they don't have to fight and keep up the military assets the NullSec corp would. Your comment utterly denies the right of choice of a corp not to engage in ship to ship PvP and that goes against everything the sandbox is made for. You have to make room for everyone to play or risk the game's very existence. Don't even bother with the EVE is PvP comments because AFK mining is also PvP. EVE is entirely PvP. Another way to put it is: you either respect the idea that all play styles are valid or risk your own being eliminated because it's not recognized by the powers that be that it's valid. Just ask the Mercenaries how they feel about their play style being nerfed into an endangered species. I suggest everyone let go of their bias toward their own play styles and allow everyone to play and have fun in the box, using the tools CCP gives us to build our sand empires the way we all feel like building in, and playing with them. Even the DEV's need to be careful of, and respect this concept, which I guarantee you they are well aware of. Sometimes they have to choose the lesser of two evils (breaking something to fix something else) but it's frustrating as heck to those of us that watch these changes and aren't told how they are going to fix what they just broke. So I understand your frustrations Teckos, I get Dravclad's, and can even grasp the core of what James 315 is saying (after you shovel all the **** off the top of it)... however what that should tell all of you is that the game is pretty well balanced at the moment since you guys are arguing over moving the balance point in micro fractions of distance. Everyone please stop trying to change the game to your benefit and if you advocate a change, make sure it's beneficial to everyone. I'm getting tired of the HiSec player whining, either from the ones that want to avoid fighting starships or those that only seem to want to fight starships. I guess that's why I'm moving our corp to NullSec. The HiSec whining is worse than the PvP losses I'll be facing and I can replace the cost of any lost ship in a matter of a couple of hours. You did note that I wanted to move the balance point a bit in terms of bumping, loot scooping and of course consequences. But they just say I want to make hisec 100% safe. Earlier in this thread I pushed for reduced war dec costs, and a mechanicsm for the war dec to follow people if they move to another player corp within 7 days of leaving a war dec corp. On the other side I suggested some sort of limitation to the war decs that a corp could get. Finally I suggested that we go back to how it was before with wrecks at 500 EHP and the removal of the EHP on freighters, I also sugegsted that CCP move it up later. The battles over wrecks if properly developed would be epic. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2072	Posted - 2016.08.01 21:06:08 - [741] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Tell you what so, you go tell the rest of eve to stob being beligerant gobshites to one another and we'll take it from there . We're trying to tell CCP not to pick sides. That's all. That's what I would say too. Just in case you missed it: CCP designed a game to be harsh, dark and gritty. They picked sides before anyone started playing. This seems to be hard for some people to grasp. If EVE is to stay EVE then CCP will always side with a harsher play style. Accept it, adapt or move on seem to be the only choices. Except if you are a ganker loot scooping, you can point someone with no consequences, you can loot scoop for the risk of a noob ship, so I have to accept that gankers have it really easy? Yeah right, harsh dark gritty, tha's a total laugh... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dwai Attic Infinite Point Test Alliance Please Ignore 4	Posted - 2016.08.01 21:12:08 - [742] - Quote Hmm, good question! I used to play a LOT, then a lot less, now I barely log in. Why? Because I don't really find Eve that exciting anymore, unfortunately. What can I say. Been playing since 2009. Eve has changed since then, but at the same time, not really. I do still love the game to death, but I don't enjoy playing it as much as I used to...it just got old. But hell, what do I expect after 7 years of playing. I think, it's just harder to attract people these days. People aren't into challenging games anymore. Especially new gamers. I grew up playing Morrowind, my most favorite RPG to date, but would people like it today? I don't think so. For example, there are no waypoints in Morrowind. You had to figure out the location by yourself. Average gamer of 2016 probably wouldn't handle Morrowind. Average gamer of 2003 did. Gaming has changed, it's for the masses now. Eve players are a dying breed.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17166	Posted - 2016.08.01 21:15:26 - [743] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Tell you what so, you go tell the rest of eve to stob being beligerant gobshites to one another and we'll take it from there . We're trying to tell CCP not to pick sides. That's all. That's what I would say too. Just in case you missed it: CCP designed a game to be harsh, dark and gritty. They picked sides before anyone started playing. This seems to be hard for some people to grasp. If EVE is to stay EVE then CCP will always side with a harsher play style. Accept it, adapt or move on seem to be the only choices. Except if you are a ganker loot scooping, you can point someone with no consequences, you can loot scoop for the risk of a noob ship, so I have to accept that gankers have it really easy? Yeah right, harsh dark gritty, tha's a total laugh... Bumping is being adressed, loot scooping requires two additional people to coordinate with [insert however many] required for the gank. Its a non trivial fleet op. CCP regularly slap the predators down, they also have to slap the prey from time to time too, thay arent takang sides here theyre just habing a rough times lapping both of us equaly as hard. Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 71	Posted - 2016.08.01 21:20:06 - [744] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Tell you what so, you go tell the rest of eve to stob being beligerant gobshites to one another and we'll take it from there . We're trying to tell CCP not to pick sides. That's all. That's what I would say too. Just in case you missed it: CCP designed a game to be harsh, dark and gritty. They picked sides before anyone started playing. This seems to be hard for some people to grasp. If EVE is to stay EVE then CCP will always side with a harsher play style. Accept it, adapt or move on seem to be the only choices. Except if you are a ganker loot scooping, you can point someone with no consequences, you can loot scoop for the risk of a noob ship, so I have to accept that gankers have it really easy? Yeah right, harsh dark gritty, tha's a total laugh... Point without consequence? Also, yes the act of ganking is harsh. Can you not also use a nob ship and scoop loot to DST? Is this a mechanic only reserved for the gankers? Where is that check box for me to activate/deactivate this special mechanic on my character?
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17167	Posted - 2016.08.01 21:22:06 - [745] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Point without consequence? bumping Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 73	Posted - 2016.08.01 21:25:25 - [746] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Point without consequence? bumping Well, yeah, duh. That's what happens when you hit reply too fast. My bad.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5057	Posted - 2016.08.01 21:26:07 - [747] - Quote Pandora Carrollon wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Yes because rewarding imprudence and foolishness is always good. Nobody is being rewarded with anything. Reward implies that CCP actively advocates an AFK mining play style. Just the opposite appears to be true as it's the worst common ISK generator in the game. HiSec AFK mining is a horrific trade of game time for relatively low ISK return. For that terrible trade off, it's relatively safe to do. If two companies with identical resources exist, one in HiSec and one in NullSec, mine for 30 days in their respective 'safe' areas (High, Concord guarding: Null, guarded gates, etc.) the NullSec corp will be piles upon piles richer than the HiSec corp. The reason the HiSec corp exists is they don't have to fight and keep up the military assets the NullSec corp would. Your comment utterly denies the right of choice of a corp not to engage in ship to ship PvP and that goes against everything the sandbox is made for. You have to make room for everyone to play or risk the game's very existence. Don't even bother with the EVE is PvP comments because AFK mining is also PvP. EVE is entirely PvP. Another way to put it is: you either respect the idea that all play styles are valid or risk your own being eliminated because it's not recognized by the powers that be that it's valid. Just ask the Mercenaries how they feel about their play style being nerfed into an endangered species. I suggest everyone let go of their bias toward their own play styles and allow everyone to play and have fun in the box, using the tools CCP gives us to build our sand empires the way we all feel like building in, and playing with them. Even the DEV's need to be careful of, and respect this concept, which I guarantee you they are well aware of. Sometimes they have to choose the lesser of two evils (breaking something to fix something else) but it's frustrating as heck to those of us that watch these changes and aren't told how they are going to fix what they just broke. So I understand your frustrations Teckos... No you don't. In fact, you completely misunderstand me. I am not saying people should not AFK mine, or over fill their freighter and autopilot around. Here is what I am saying. Nice and simple. IF you AFK mine or IF you over fill your freighter and do not take precautions....then you were imprudent and foolish and sometimes you get punished for that. People who come here and want to nerf that punishment are implicitly saying that being imprudent and foolish should be rewarded. People who gank are in essence correcting errors. Errors in judgement. They are showing other players the consequences of their actions. I have used an analogy before and I'll use it again. If you are over filling your freighter an not even using a scout let alone a webber....you are risk seeking. You are like the guy who gambles away everything he has in Vegas and is sitting on the curb wondering what happened....he was due for a win. As for not wanting to engage in ship-to-ship PvP...that is just it. You cannot be sure of that in this game provided you actually undock. That is it. If you want to avoid, 100%, ship-to-ship PvP never ever undock. That is your only choice. People who say they do not want to engage in ship-to-ship PvP and want to undock are literally playing the wrong game. You are quite simply wrong if you think that is an option in this sandbox. If I am willing to accept the consequences of shooting you in a 1.0 system...I can shoot you. That is ship-to-ship PvP. Your desire to not have that type of play in this game is irrelevant. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5057	Posted - 2016.08.01 21:28:23 - [748] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Point without consequence? bumping Well, yeah, duh. That's what happens when you hit reply too fast. My bad. It has happened to all of us.... "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5057	Posted - 2016.08.01 21:30:10 - [749] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Except if you are a ganker loot scooping, you can point someone with no consequences, you can loot scoop for the risk of a noob ship, so I have to accept that gankers have it really easy? Yeah right, harsh dark gritty, tha's a total laugh... Yeah, lets ignore all the consequences and costs up to that point. Holy crap, that is one of the dumbest things I've read. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5057	Posted - 2016.08.01 21:36:46 - [750] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: loot scooping requires two additional people to coordinate with [insert however many] required for the gank. Its a non trivial fleet op. Oh please it is the easiest thing in the world. Anyone can do it. That is why AG scoop loot and give....it...back.....hmmmm...... Okay, never mind. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5739	Posted - 2016.08.01 22:03:35 - [751] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Pirates go where the trade lanes are, their content does not exist outside of highsec. Yeah, their "content" shoots back outside of hisec Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5057	Posted - 2016.08.01 22:22:14 - [752] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: baltec1 wrote: Pirates go where the trade lanes are, their content does not exist outside of highsec. Yeah, their "content" shoots back outside of hisec There is that, but outside of HS you'll be hard pressed an imprudent freighter pilot flying around with billions in his cargo hold. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 361	Posted - 2016.08.01 22:25:40 - [753] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: baltec1 wrote: Pirates go where the trade lanes are, their content does not exist outside of highsec. Yeah, their "content" shoots back outside of hisec There is that, but outside of HS you'll be hard pressed an imprudent freighter pilot flying around with billions in his cargo hold. True, the wormhole-bears usually use orcas to move their billions of isk in easy loot from the low-sec WH exit to try to get it to a market hub... Or at least they did last time I lived in low-sec
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5057	Posted - 2016.08.01 22:38:06 - [754] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: baltec1 wrote: Pirates go where the trade lanes are, their content does not exist outside of highsec. Yeah, their "content" shoots back outside of hisec There is that, but outside of HS you'll be hard pressed an imprudent freighter pilot flying around with billions in his cargo hold. True, the wormhole-bears usually use orcas to move their billions of isk in easy loot from the low-sec WH exit to try to get it to a market hub... Or at least they did last time I lived in low-sec Were they doing things like not using a scout. Autopiloting? No webber? No escort at all? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 3478	Posted - 2016.08.01 23:23:58 - [755] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: There is that, but outside of HS you'll be hard pressed an imprudent freighter pilot flying around with billions in his cargo hold. That's because they use JF's to get everywhere instead. Because escorting Freighters was boring & tedious and too much work..... Hmmmm, yet they claim high sec players should do exactly what Null Sec players refused to and asked CCP for solutions so they didn't have to......
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 361	Posted - 2016.08.01 23:44:11 - [756] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Were they doing things like not using a scout. Autopiloting? No webber? No escort at all? TBH I only saw a few groups... but 2 of them did not use scouts, and the third used a very expensively fit tengu to scout... He did manage to get his orca through with that one - but we still got 4 billion isk in loot from the tengu escort, so we were happy lol. Idiocy is not limited to high-sec in EVE - it is universe-wide.
Pandora Carrollon Kingsman Tailors 514	Posted - 2016.08.02 00:04:01 - [757] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: As for not wanting to engage in ship-to-ship PvP...that is just it. You cannot be sure of that in this game provided you actually undock. That is it. If you want to avoid, 100%, ship-to-ship PvP never ever undock. That is your only choice. People who say they do not want to engage in ship-to-ship PvP and want to undock are literally playing the wrong game. You are quite simply wrong if you think that is an option in this sandbox. If I am willing to accept the consequences of shooting you in a 1.0 system...I can shoot you. That is ship-to-ship PvP. Your desire to not have that type of play in this game is irrelevant. Sorry if I mis-analyzed your statement. I was working mostly off of 'tone' and that's hard to get in text. My apologies there. As to this last part, no, just no. That interpretation of my comments applies taking what I was saying totally wrong. While the statement about never undocking is technically correct, everyone knows that's functionally incorrect. You've said it yourself, if you know what you are doing in HiSec, for all intents and purposes you are pretty much 99.9999% safe. Can you shoot me in a 1.0 security system, certainly but you'll be dead before you've got my shields down and I'll still get to pick your corpse clean if I pop you once when Concord tackles you. That's not a brilliant way to give me your ships modules. I wasn't talking about 100% safety, nobody was. I was talking about people with a PvE play style. We, as players, have a responsibility to the games that we like. In EVE, that responsibility comes in the form of respecting the sandbox and how other people want to play. I've never seen anyone advocate for a 100% safe gaming experience in space. Some people have mentioned methods it might be possible but the only place I can think of that it might apply would be in a rookie system with small ships. It's really about players that want to play in a certain method for a certain reason. Haulers know they can be bumped and ganked, but hauling is a horrible profession with the insurance costs. Not only do they have to pay for what they lose, they lose the ship and generally get podded too. It's why it's freaking expensive to contract a hauler. It's also why I didn't put that in my example. Most of the ire is around the AFK miners. The haulers are usually pretty classy and know what they are in for. I'm not arguing against your points Teckos, I do get them. I'm trying to get everyone to see how important each others play styles are to EVE. HiSec doesn't need to be 100% safe, I've never advocated that. I'm advocating that you guys actually listen to each other and come up with a common solution that sets the balance point in an area that everyone can have fun with. I can think of several things off the top of my head right now that would be fair and fun for the gankers as well as the AFK miners and haulers. There are solutions and we don't need these walls of text to deal with the relatively minor play issues being discussed. Be Positive GÇó Change yourself first, New Eden will come later GÇó EVE is Awesome GÇó CCP isn't the enemy GÇó Players are people too GÇó Where're the clothing blueprints GÇó Yeah, I'm still learning this game -- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 75	Posted - 2016.08.02 00:18:51 - [758] - Quote Pandora Carrollton wrote: I can think of several things off the top of my head right now that would be fair and fun for the gankers as well as the AFK miners and haulers. There are solutions and we don't need these walls of text to deal with the relatively minor play issues being discussed. I just do not get this last bit in bold. I think you post reasonably and positively so please do not think I am attacking you. Why should we or the game designers do anything to encourage AFK ship activity that allows someone to profit?
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26502	Posted - 2016.08.02 00:27:46 - [759] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Pandora Carrollton wrote: I can think of several things off the top of my head right now that would be fair and fun for the gankers as well as the AFK miners and haulers. There are solutions and we don't need these walls of text to deal with the relatively minor play issues being discussed. I just do not get this last bit in bold. I think you post reasonably and positively so please do not think I am attacking you. Why should we or the game designers do anything to encourage AFK ship activity that allows someone to profit? Neither do I, if you're afk you're not playing the game, you're doing something else. Any fun that there is to be had is from the activity you're engaged in, not the one that you're not. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5058	Posted - 2016.08.02 01:03:20 - [760] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Were they doing things like not using a scout. Autopiloting? No webber? No escort at all? TBH I only saw a few groups... but 2 of them did not use scouts, and the third used a very expensively fit tengu to scout... He did manage to get his orca through with that one - but we still got 4 billion isk in loot from the tengu escort, so we were happy lol. Idiocy is not limited to high-sec in EVE - it is universe-wide. Absolutely. But I would argue we tend to see more complaints coming from HS people than LS/NS (AFK cloaking aside, and even then seems to me the complainers there are often renters). "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2077	Posted - 2016.08.02 08:43:34 - [761] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Were they doing things like not using a scout. Autopiloting? No webber? No escort at all? TBH I only saw a few groups... but 2 of them did not use scouts, and the third used a very expensively fit tengu to scout... He did manage to get his orca through with that one - but we still got 4 billion isk in loot from the tengu escort, so we were happy lol. Idiocy is not limited to high-sec in EVE - it is universe-wide. Absolutely. But I would argue we tend to see more complaints coming from HS people than LS/NS (AFK cloaking aside, and even then seems to me the complainers there are often renters). As I pointed out earlier its all about mechanics which aid the gankers, CCP just needs to do a balance pass. 1. More consequences for ganking as laid out by me and others in previous locked threads, most notably lock out of NPC Stations in hisec. 2. Look at the loot scooping and adjust for consequences 3. implement the bumping mechanic FFS 4. Grade in the EHP wreck to 15,000 so the emrgent gameplay around ganking wrecks is not destroyed outright That is the idiocy in plain view of many players. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Geronimo McVain McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc 158	Posted - 2016.08.02 08:56:30 - [762] - Quote To get back on topic: Would you allow CCP to scan your computer to see which other games you are playing ( with the option to correct the list) ? Or would you like a poll where you choose the games? This would make it easier for CCP to acquire new players, cause they know where to place ads.I could imagine that players that are playing for example Dark Souls or Civ are more likely to play EVE then people playing Sims.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17771	Posted - 2016.08.02 08:58:53 - [763] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Were they doing things like not using a scout. Autopiloting? No webber? No escort at all? TBH I only saw a few groups... but 2 of them did not use scouts, and the third used a very expensively fit tengu to scout... He did manage to get his orca through with that one - but we still got 4 billion isk in loot from the tengu escort, so we were happy lol. Idiocy is not limited to high-sec in EVE - it is universe-wide. Absolutely. But I would argue we tend to see more complaints coming from HS people than LS/NS (AFK cloaking aside, and even then seems to me the complainers there are often renters). As I pointed out earlier its all about mechanics which aid the gankers, CCP just needs to do a balance pass. 1. More consequences for ganking as laid out by me and others in previous locked threads, most notably lock out of NPC Stations in hisec. 2. Look at the loot scooping and adjust for consequences 3. implement the bumping mechanic FFS 4. Grade in the EHP wreck to 15,000 so the emrgent gameplay around ganking wrecks is not destroyed outright That is the idiocy in plain view of many players. What you just demanded is the near removal of ganking, thats not balance.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2077	Posted - 2016.08.02 09:03:01 - [764] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Were they doing things like not using a scout. Autopiloting? No webber? No escort at all? TBH I only saw a few groups... but 2 of them did not use scouts, and the third used a very expensively fit tengu to scout... He did manage to get his orca through with that one - but we still got 4 billion isk in loot from the tengu escort, so we were happy lol. Idiocy is not limited to high-sec in EVE - it is universe-wide. Absolutely. But I would argue we tend to see more complaints coming from HS people than LS/NS (AFK cloaking aside, and even then seems to me the complainers there are often renters). As I pointed out earlier its all about mechanics which aid the gankers, CCP just needs to do a balance pass. 1. More consequences for ganking as laid out by me and others in previous locked threads, most notably lock out of NPC Stations in hisec. 2. Look at the loot scooping and adjust for consequences 3. implement the bumping mechanic FFS 4. Grade in the EHP wreck to 15,000 so the emrgent gameplay around ganking wrecks is not destroyed outright That is the idiocy in plain view of many players. What you just demanded is the near removal of ganking, thats not balance. Rubbish, it makes it a bit harder that is all, it creates consequences, like other people in the game have mate. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17173	Posted - 2016.08.02 09:08:26 - [765] - Quote Geronimo McVain wrote: To get back on topic: Would you allow CCP to scan your computer to see which other games you are playing ( with the option to correct the list) ? Or would you like a poll where you choose the games? This would make it easier for CCP to acquire new players, cause they know where to place ads.I could imagine that players that are playing for example Dark Souls or Civ are more likely to play EVE then people playing Sims. Hell no, im pretty sure the last thing you want is your wife trying to act like your girlfriend, thatd be upsetting on soo many levels. Same thing with eve... Sort of. Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17772	Posted - 2016.08.02 09:12:46 - [766] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Rubbish, it makes it a bit harder that is all, it creates consequences, like other people in the game have mate. Yes it makes it harder by making it near impossible. Tell me, what other activity in highsec has the same level of punishments as ganking?
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2077	Posted - 2016.08.02 09:26:51 - [767] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Rubbish, it makes it a bit harder that is all, it creates consequences, like other people in the game have mate. Yes it makes it harder by making it near impossible. Tell me, what other activity in highsec has the same level of punishments as ganking? Hauling... NB Actually worse than ganking in terms of punishment... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17772	Posted - 2016.08.02 09:33:41 - [768] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Hauling... NB Actually worse than ganking in terms of punishment... So they lose sec status when they complete a run? They lose their ship after every attempt to transport cargo? They get a kill right against them after every attempt at transporting cargo? They get no insurance when they die? They get attacked by the faction police? At the end of of their cargo run every stack and all their mods stand a 50% chance of being destroyed? No, the real risk to hauling is infact only from the very very rare chance they get targeted by a ganker. So rare infact that over the span of over a million gate jumps they stand a less than 0.01% chance of getting killed by a ganker. Try again.
March rabbit Mosquito Squadron The-Culture 1840	Posted - 2016.08.02 09:34:28 - [769] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Rubbish, it makes it a bit harder that is all, it creates consequences, like other people in the game have mate. Yes it makes it harder by making it near impossible. Tell me, what other activity in highsec has the same level of punishments as ganking? I dunno. Maybe that one with the same effects on other players? I'm talking about .... hm .... OOps.... The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2077	Posted - 2016.08.02 09:36:39 - [770] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Hauling... NB Actually worse than ganking in terms of punishment... So they lose sec status when they complete a run? They lose their ship after every attempt to transport cargo? They get a kill right against them after every attempt at transporting cargo? They get no insurance when they die? They get attacked by the faction police? At the end of of their cargo run every stack and all their mods stand a 50% chance of being destroyed? No, the real risk to hauling is infact only from the very very rare chance they get targeted by a ganker. So rare infact that over the span of over a million gate jumps they stand a less than 0.01% chance of getting killed by a ganker. Try again. Where did you get that number from, pull it out of Jenn's megaphone? Are you making the mistake when looking at game balance to separate out game mechanics from player actions, well who would have thought you would think like that When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17772	Posted - 2016.08.02 09:40:42 - [771] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Where did you get that number from, pull it out of Jenn's megaphone? Red freight, the largest freight organisation in EVE.
Demica Diaz SE-1 399	Posted - 2016.08.02 09:47:50 - [772] - Quote Ganking has many small effects on EVE but that is nowhere near the reason why EVE has less players playing. Not even close.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2077	Posted - 2016.08.02 09:49:34 - [773] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Where did you get that number from, pull it out of Jenn's megaphone? Red freight, the largest freight organisation in EVE. Not representative of all haulers mate... If I said the same thing about ganking you would be crawling all over me for it. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
John Volan Volan Enterprises 37	Posted - 2016.08.02 09:56:41 - [774] - Quote Demica Diaz wrote: Ganking has many small effects on EVE but that is nowhere near the reason why EVE has less players playing. Not even close. Ganking is a very visible and very controversial thing when you're first starting the game as a newbie, just not to a vet. And it's those new players that it's having an effect on. I'm not saying it shouldn't... CCP went with the philosophy of HTFU over hand-holding but it comes at the expense of new player retention and it's disingenuous to say otherwise.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2077	Posted - 2016.08.02 09:58:11 - [775] - Quote Demica Diaz wrote: Ganking has many small effects on EVE but that is nowhere near the reason why EVE has less players playing. Not even close. And can you back that up with figures, do you know miners during the gankfest of wet paper bag tanks who were ganked and stayed on, I had contacts from before that period and none of them play the game now, all dropped out during that period after getting ganked so easily. Come on I am all ears.... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17772	Posted - 2016.08.02 10:16:14 - [776] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Where did you get that number from, pull it out of Jenn's megaphone? Red freight, the largest freight organisation in EVE. Not representative of all haulers mate... If I said the same thing about ganking you would be crawling all over me for it. Data collected over 1,883,479 gate jumps and 2,786,739 jumps from the previous year. Its representative of freighters, you won't find a larger collection of data.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17772	Posted - 2016.08.02 10:21:03 - [777] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Demica Diaz wrote: Ganking has many small effects on EVE but that is nowhere near the reason why EVE has less players playing. Not even close. And can you back that up with figures, do you know miners during the gankfest of wet paper bag tanks who were ganked and stayed on, I had contacts from before that period and none of them play the game now, all dropped out during that period after getting ganked so easily. Come on I am all ears.... These wet paper tanks being on par with cruisers.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17173	Posted - 2016.08.02 10:33:52 - [778] - Quote John Volan wrote: Demica Diaz wrote: Ganking has many small effects on EVE but that is nowhere near the reason why EVE has less players playing. Not even close. Ganking is a very visible and very controversial thing when you're first starting the game as a newbie, just not to a vet. And it's those new players that it's having an effect on. I'm not saying it shouldn't... CCP went with the philosophy of HTFU over hand-holding but it comes at the expense of new player retention and it's disingenuous to say otherwise. No it isnt, the pissing and moaning about it is though. This mewling and crying about it is what they pick up on, hardly anything moar. Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 700	Posted - 2016.08.02 10:33:59 - [779] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Demica Diaz wrote: Ganking has many small effects on EVE but that is nowhere near the reason why EVE has less players playing. Not even close. And can you back that up with figures, do you know miners during the gankfest of wet paper bag tanks who were ganked and stayed on, I had contacts from before that period and none of them play the game now, all dropped out during that period after getting ganked so easily. Come on I am all ears.... Can you back up anything at all with figures? You reference CCP devs and then can't post the evidence and every time you are asked for figures to support your arguments, you duck and cover.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17773	Posted - 2016.08.02 10:47:54 - [780] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Demica Diaz wrote: Ganking has many small effects on EVE but that is nowhere near the reason why EVE has less players playing. Not even close. And can you back that up with figures, do you know miners during the gankfest of wet paper bag tanks who were ganked and stayed on, I had contacts from before that period and none of them play the game now, all dropped out during that period after getting ganked so easily. Come on I am all ears.... Can you back up anything at all with figures? You reference CCP devs and then can't post the evidence and every time you are asked for figures to support your arguments, you duck and cover. I literally just posted some that disproves what he is saying.
xxxTRUSTxxx Galactic Rangers EVEolution. 460	Posted - 2016.08.02 10:57:48 - [781] - Quote some are forgetting their place in all of this, if you are a client (us) you take part, if you are the producer (CCP) you provide the area for the clients (us) to take part. when you feel you want to take more a dev role and feel you have what it takes to be a part of the team that brings us EVE then hey, stick an application into CCP and i'm sure they'll interview you and then it's all up to you. until then stfu and play.
John Volan Volan Enterprises 38	Posted - 2016.08.02 11:14:27 - [782] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: John Volan wrote: Ganking is a very visible and very controversial thing when you're first starting the game as a newbie, just not to a vet. And it's those new players that it's having an effect on. I'm not saying it shouldn't... CCP went with the philosophy of HTFU over hand-holding but it comes at the expense of new player retention and it's disingenuous to say otherwise. No it isnt, the pissing and moaning about it is though. This mewling and crying about it is what they pick up on, hardly anything moar. Is there a difference? Often one of the first things I see new players ask after 'where do I dock?' is 'Is it safe in high sec?'. Of course the answer is invariably 'no' with various flavors of 'undocking is consenting to pvp' and 'youre never safe, welcome to Eve' but more significantly the reason most often given for it is suicide ganking. That's how new players are exposed to it early and often, whenever they say 'can I autopilot into Jita with all my stuff?' or 'do I need shields on my retriever?' they will inevitably get a healthy dose of ganking nightmare scenarios to scare them onto the straight and narrow.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26505	Posted - 2016.08.02 11:57:43 - [783] - Quote John Volan wrote: Demica Diaz wrote: Ganking has many small effects on EVE but that is nowhere near the reason why EVE has less players playing. Not even close. Ganking is a very visible and very controversial thing when you're first starting the game as a newbie, just not to a vet. While you're correct in that it's a very visible activity, the visibility isn't necessarily due to its frequency. We live in an age of social media, every organisation is pushing their agenda including those in virtual worlds, which increases visibility. The long and the short of it is that a decent chunk of the visibility is down to the people doing it being media savvy. You're also right in that it's a somewhat controversial activity, especially if you've come from other MMOs where such activities are verboten; CCP could certainly do more to warn players that it is explicitly allowed here, along with a lot of the other things that get you banned elsewhere. Quote: And it's those new players that it's having an effect on. I'm not saying it shouldn't... CCP went with the philosophy of HTFU over hand-holding but it comes at the expense of new player retention and it's disingenuous to say otherwise. This is where the assumptions starts, as such they are open to debate. Using one of Chribba's wonderful graphs over at Eveoffline, roughly 50-60 new characters were created every hour over the last week, that's circa 8400 new characters in a week, using 50 an hour as a baseline; admittedly a goodly chunk of those will be alts so for arguments sake we'll cut that number by 2/3 giving us 2800 potential new players. I'll also assume that the most likely ship for a newbie to be mining with is a Venture, because they get one from the tutorial, and that all Ventures are flown by newbies. A total of 146 Ventures exploded in hisec in the last week (24/07-31/07). 21 of those Ventures died to NPC's; CODE.'s performance was pitiful, they only managed 24. Death by merc accounts for at least another 29 and at least 1 died to Concord, leaving us with 71 that are open for debate. Even so 146 is just over 5% of potential newbies (2800) exploding while they're flying a Venture during the period looked at. The data used is from zkillboard and as such quite limited, my spreadsheet needs some work, with reference to pulling related kills where Concord pwn the attackers and wardecs, in order to further refine the data. TL;DR It would appear that suicide ganking is more propaganda than action. Discuss away. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 363	Posted - 2016.08.02 12:01:43 - [784] - Quote People always talk about all the "new players" getting ganked...but all i see are 6+ month old characters getting ganked... How old do you have to be in EVE these days to no longer consider yourself or be considered by others to be "new"? I mean..back when I got recruited into EVE the friend who recruited me took me on a ratting trip into low-sec....and he and I were 100% sure we would be fine because his friend was along to protect us - and his friend was a grizzled 1.5 month old Veteran in an inconceivably powerful Vexor, so we were pretty much untouchable... I mean sure we were wrong... But even so I considered myself pretty old and experienced in EVE by the 2-3 month mark... I'd been through a few wars (and gotten some kills, even a couple solo ones), I knew what I was doing, I was close to breaking into level 4 missions... I knew by then that I wasn't at the top of the EVE food chain - but I certainly didn't consider myself a "noob" anymore... So how have we gone from that to a modern EVE where everybody less than 5 years old is somehow a "noob" who couldn't possibly know how to play the game properly by now and can't be held responsible for their own actions and/or mistakes???
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 363	Posted - 2016.08.02 12:03:51 - [785] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Using one of Chribba's wonderful graphs over at Eveoffline, roughly 50-60 new characters were created every hour over the last week, that's circa 8400 new characters in a week, using 50 an hour as a baseline; admittedly a goodly chunk of those will be alts so for arguments sake we'll cut that number by 2/3 giving us 2800 potential new players. I'll also assume that the most likely ship for a newbie to be mining with is a Venture, because they get one from the tutorial, and that all Ventures are flown by newbies To be fair - new account data is also skewed since the release of skill injectors as people are making a lot of farming alts. Since they are self-sustaining in terms of PLEX/etc, people are making quite a LOT of them, and adding to their farming armies as we go here. No way to calculate it accurately - just something to be aware of.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26505	Posted - 2016.08.02 12:07:29 - [786] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Using one of Chribba's wonderful graphs over at Eveoffline, roughly 50-60 new characters were created every hour over the last week, that's circa 8400 new characters in a week, using 50 an hour as a baseline; admittedly a goodly chunk of those will be alts so for arguments sake we'll cut that number by 2/3 giving us 2800 potential new players. I'll also assume that the most likely ship for a newbie to be mining with is a Venture, because they get one from the tutorial, and that all Ventures are flown by newbies To be fair - new account data is also skewed since the release of skill injectors as people are making a lot of farming alts. Since they are self-sustaining in terms of PLEX/etc, people are making quite a LOT of them, and adding to their farming armies as we go here. No way to calculate it accurately - just something to be aware of. Agreed, that's the main reason I dropped the figure by 66%, I actually considered dropping it by 80% which gave 1680 potential new players, somewhere in the middle is probably about right. Thanks for pointing it out though, there is a fair bit of assumption going on and hopefully it'll clarify my thinking for others. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2078	Posted - 2016.08.02 12:11:29 - [787] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Demica Diaz wrote: Ganking has many small effects on EVE but that is nowhere near the reason why EVE has less players playing. Not even close. And can you back that up with figures, do you know miners during the gankfest of wet paper bag tanks who were ganked and stayed on, I had contacts from before that period and none of them play the game now, all dropped out during that period after getting ganked so easily. Come on I am all ears.... Can you back up anything at all with figures? You reference CCP devs and then can't post the evidence and every time you are asked for figures to support your arguments, you duck and cover. I literally just posted some that disproves what he is saying. If red frog did all the hauling in the game then yes, but they don't:... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
John Volan Volan Enterprises 38	Posted - 2016.08.02 12:15:01 - [788] - Quote My point wasn't that newbies are getting ganked but that they're hearing about ganking and it's jarring when coming from games where it would be a bannable offense for 'griefing' or something. And while that turns away a lot of newbies it's also probably for the best since I doubt they would have fit in well when the rest of the game is designed with the same harsh philosophy in mind.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26505	Posted - 2016.08.02 12:20:35 - [789] - Quote John Volan wrote: My point wasn't that newbies are getting ganked but that they're hearing about ganking and it's jarring when coming from games where it would be a bannable offense for 'griefing' or something. And while that turns away a lot of newbies it's also probably for the best since I doubt they would have fit in well when the rest of the game is designed with the same harsh philosophy in mind. Ah fair enough and agreed. While newbies are the lifeblood of the game, they need to be the kind of newbie that can adapt their gameplay to a harsher environment than they're used to. Only one of the people I've buddied into Eve has stayed, the rest found it too much of a culture shock despite loving the stuff they'd read and being forewarned by myself about what they would face in detail. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 701	Posted - 2016.08.02 12:31:33 - [790] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Demica Diaz wrote: Ganking has many small effects on EVE but that is nowhere near the reason why EVE has less players playing. Not even close. And can you back that up with figures, do you know miners during the gankfest of wet paper bag tanks who were ganked and stayed on, I had contacts from before that period and none of them play the game now, all dropped out during that period after getting ganked so easily. Come on I am all ears.... Can you back up anything at all with figures? You reference CCP devs and then can't post the evidence and every time you are asked for figures to support your arguments, you duck and cover. I literally just posted some that disproves what he is saying. If red frog did all the hauling in the game then yes, but they don't:... The sample size is larger than the amount required to be representative, or are you going to claim now to be an expert in scientific method?
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 366	Posted - 2016.08.02 12:37:04 - [791] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: The sample size is larger than the amount required to be representative, or are you going to claim now to be an expert in scientific method? Pedant Mode Activated: That would be Statistical Analysis, not the Scientific Method. edit: Also statistics don't prove anything. Ever. It is not possible. Statistics merely indicate things - and when applied unscrupulously they can be used to indicate pretty much anything you want them to.... People who consider statistics to be "scientific" or even entirely trustworthy are, on the whole, idiots. This is not a comment on your statistics in particular - just on statistics in general, as it is something of a pet peeve of mine.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2078	Posted - 2016.08.02 12:43:43 - [792] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dracvlad wrote: If red frog did all the hauling in the game then yes, but they don't:... The sample size is larger than the amount required to be representative, or are you going to claim now to be an expert in scientific method? Edit: Since I dislike making claims without offering evidence to support anything other than opinion, here's one 3rd party you can use to investigate the sample size aspects yourself: http://www.surveysystem.com/sscalc.htm Well I was paid a huge amount of money in RL for this type of analysis a number of years back, what you have to understand about data samples is identifying anything that distorts that sample and makes it not representative of the whole, which is pretty evident in Red Frog. But trying to explain that to someone like you is kinda meh. NB Good god what idiot +1'd your post, do they even know anything about statistical analysis... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 701	Posted - 2016.08.02 12:45:22 - [793] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: The sample size is larger than the amount required to be representative, or are you going to claim now to be an expert in scientific method? Pedant Mode Activated: That would be Statistical Analysis, not the Scientific Method. In this case, the question to answer is whether ganking a significant issue. That can be answered just as well using the scientific method as it can by statistical analysis. So pedant away all you like. Statistical analysis being a tool used extensively in science, both terms can be used here depending on your level of abstraction. Analysis of the data itself, statistical. Answering questions, just as relevant application of scientific method.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 367	Posted - 2016.08.02 12:48:44 - [794] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: The sample size is larger than the amount required to be representative, or are you going to claim now to be an expert in scientific method? Pedant Mode Activated: That would be Statistical Analysis, not the Scientific Method. In this case, the question to answer is whether ganking a significant issue. That can be answered just as well using the scientific method as it can by statistical analysis. So pedant away all you like. Statistical analysis being a tool used extensively in science, both terms can be used here depending on your level of abstraction. Analysis of the data itself, statistical. Answering questions, just as relevant application of scientific method. Um...No... This is the scientific method: 1) Define a question 2) Gather information and resources (observe) 3) Form an explanatory hypothesis 4) Test the hypothesis by performing an experiment and collecting data in a reproducible manner 5) Analyze the data 6) Interpret the data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypothesis 7) Publish results 8) Retest (frequently done by other scientists) Your statistics can only carry you as far as step 3. You are missing steps 4 through 8. And good luck getting published in a recognized scientific format for peer review in steps 7 and 8... edit: Disclaimer: This is a very highly simplified form of the scientific method - you can read the link I put above for more detail...but this is very different from simple statistic gathering/analysis. Statistics are a tool that can be used in science (albeit not a very reliable one in general) - but they are not in and of themselves scientific.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 367	Posted - 2016.08.02 13:01:55 - [795] - Quote In terms of ganking - I actually agree that it doesn't have a particularly significant impact on the game as a whole. The vast majority of shipping does go through unmolested, and even most miners don't have significant issues with ganking. There are individual cases who are very heavily impacted by ganking - but they are the exception rather than the rule I am sure. However, due to the nature of the game and the extremely variable nature of ganking (since it involves so many players with lives outside of the game/etc)...true scientific testing of a theory regarding the impact of ganking is virtually impossible. You can't prove anything one way or another. So yes, statistics are probably the best you are going to get....But as previously mentioned statistics can also be manipulated to show anything you ****ing well want them to show...so both sides are going to show the statistics that favour their viewpoint, and you guys can keep on arguing until the end of time.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 369	Posted - 2016.08.02 13:10:24 - [796] - Quote For example - baltec has already shown how statistics can be heavily skewed to favour his own viewpoint in the example he gave: He gave us Red Frog data - indicating how many jumps their freighters made, and how often they got ganked. However, as we all know - there are only a few unavoidable choke-point systems where ganking actually occurs - so freight runs that do not pass through them are irrelevant. Additionally, the only meaningful statistic for how often ganks occur is how often they are ganked per entire trip - not per single gate jump. You can jump 25 gates and then get ganked 1 jump from your final destination - it still makes the entire run a failure due to ganking, even though you technically only got ganked on 4% of the gates you jumped through... Now, since Red Frog is still in business ignoring ganks, I am quite confident that a proper statistical analysis would still favour baltec's viewpoint....but the fact remains that he wasn't satisfied with a meaningful analysis - he had to ridiculously skew the data in his own favour. This is the sort of bad practice that gives statistics a bad name. And this is why they are not in and of themselves "scientific".
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2078	Posted - 2016.08.02 13:21:01 - [797] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt totally nailed it My focus is on what I would call casual hisec players, what was once a large subset of the Eve population. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Geronimo McVain McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc 158	Posted - 2016.08.02 14:31:04 - [798] - Quote The main problem is that vets have the resources to just shrug at a 4B Isk loss while the noobs don't. I had these problems myself in the beginning and it's reducing with every Isk And ship I own. A loss of 150+M scared me away from Null for some time because I just didn't have the resources to cope with such losses while today I would just shrug. And this problem gets more severe because Noobs make more, in the eyes of vets, stupid mistakes. IMHO industrial ganks are not really a problem for noobs because they just don't have the money to make such ganks worth while. Ganks of Miners, ratters and Mission players are a more serious problem for noobs.
Caco De'mon New Order Logistics CODE. 20	Posted - 2016.08.02 15:11:32 - [799] - Quote Geronimo McVain wrote: Ganks of Miners, ratters and Mission players are a more serious problem for noobs. Except that the number of 3+ month players (heck even way older) earning their PLEX in HS mining is huge. This issue isn't just about one group or another group but rather the over abundance of easy to get ISK in HS that attracts ALL types of players. Go to CODE's kill lists and just thumb through some random miner kills in barges and you will quickly see that this isn't just a rookie issue. Ice fields are a great place to see vets mining away...usually AFK. In general, a large segment of the playebase wants as much easy ISK as possible and HS for most fits that bill. CCP would have to fundamentally change the game if it both wanted to help new players more and drive out the "greedy" vets. *"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17774	Posted - 2016.08.02 15:51:32 - [800] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: If red frog did all the hauling in the game then yes, but they don't:... Don't need to look at every hauler to see a trend. If ganking is such a big problem then why is it having such an insignificant impact on the largest freight organisation?
Pandora Carrollon Kingsman Tailors 519	Posted - 2016.08.02 15:52:04 - [801] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Pandora Carrollton wrote: I can think of several things off the top of my head right now that would be fair and fun for the gankers as well as the AFK miners and haulers. There are solutions and we don't need these walls of text to deal with the relatively minor play issues being discussed. I just do not get this last bit in bold. I think you post reasonably and positively so please do not think I am attacking you. Why should we or the game designers do anything to encourage AFK ship activity that allows someone to profit? It's the very reason your supposition points out. Your comment demonstrates you have a negative bias against AFK miners. There's no way I can convince you to change that. As long as you have a negative bias toward ANY play style, you are in jeopardy of hypocrisy. Clearly CCP allows this play style. That should be good enough of an endorsement for every player of EVE. Your play style may be attacking AFK miners. That's allowed as well. Good enough of an endorsement for me. I'm saying, we need to advocate change that respects everyone's play style, even if we don't like it. Be Positive GÇó Change yourself first, New Eden will come later GÇó EVE is Awesome GÇó CCP isn't the enemy GÇó Players are people too GÇó Where're the clothing blueprints GÇó Yeah, I'm still learning this game -- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17774	Posted - 2016.08.02 16:16:14 - [802] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: The scientific method is an intentionally difficult, long, and rigorous process to remove discrepancies of this type and to ensure that the results are actually proven - not merely indicated by 1 potentially skewed set of uncontrolled observations. Thankfully we have several. Many times in the past we have looked at the number of freighters getting ganked and found the number to be tiny compared to the amount passing through choke points. Tippia one went through records to see the difference between the rate of mining barges getting ganked back in 2011 and 2015 and found it had dropped. In this thread I have also pointed out why barges are poorly balanced and done it using real numbers. The problem with the anti gankers is not a single argument they have can be backed up with any evidence that supports it, they never provide any evidence even, its always people like me that has to go out and look into these things. We also always see the same responses too. "oh that doesn't count", "they don't represent the norm" but by far the most common response is them ignoring anything that doesn't back up their argument.
Geronimo McVain McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc 159	Posted - 2016.08.02 16:20:45 - [803] - Quote Caco De'mon wrote: Geronimo McVain wrote: Ganks of Miners, ratters and Mission players are a more serious problem for noobs. Except that the number of 3+ month players (heck even way older) earning their PLEX in HS mining is huge. This issue isn't just about one group or another group but rather the over abundance of easy to get ISK in HS that attracts ALL types of players. Go to CODE's kill lists and just thumb through some random miner kills in barges and you will quickly see that this isn't just a rookie issue. Ice fields are a great place to see vets mining away...usually AFK. In general, a large segment of the playebase wants as much easy ISK as possible and HS for most fits that bill. CCP would have to fundamentally change the game if it both wanted to help new players more and drive out the "greedy" vets. So what? Is ratting in Null Sov such a dangerous activity? Or missioning? Everyone NEEDs a source of easy income or else all PvP, which doesn't mostly create money, would come to a stop. Everyone who is complaining over these afk Miners should tell his method of isk generation and the involved risk. Even the risk of freighter gankers is very limited to the 20M ISK throw-away-ship. Every method I know except exploration is an (almost) foolproof low risk method. You need to have the money in the first place to put it at risk for fun. I admit that my actual method of money generation is PI. Risk free, decent income for low time investment which leaves me free time and money to explore Eve.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 374	Posted - 2016.08.02 16:22:26 - [804] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: The scientific method is an intentionally difficult, long, and rigorous process to remove discrepancies of this type and to ensure that the results are actually proven - not merely indicated by 1 potentially skewed set of uncontrolled observations. Thankfully we have several. Many times in the past we have looked at the number of freighters getting ganked and found the number to be tiny compared to the amount passing through choke points. Tippia one went through records to see the difference between the rate of mining barges getting ganked back in 2011 and 2015 and found it had dropped. In this thread I have also pointed out why barges are poorly balanced and done it using real numbers. The problem with the anti gankers is not a single argument they have can be backed up with any evidence that supports it, they never provide any evidence even, its always people like me that has to go out and look into these things. We also always see the same responses too. "oh that doesn't count", "they don't represent the norm" but by far the most common response is them ignoring anything that doesn't back up their argument. You have statistics, you have evidence - you do not have a method of scientifically sound, controlled and repeatable testing - so you will never progress beyond step 3 of the scientific method. You will never have PROOF that would stand up to true scientific review. It would be silly to even try for it - it is a game. Look as I say I agree with you on this point. I don't think it is significantly impacting the game. I was just offended that shae called it "scientific method" and implied that it was scientifically proven. As I say - it is a pet peeve of mine.
Issler Dainze Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord 2543	Posted - 2016.08.02 16:38:45 - [805] - Quote There are fewer of them but in each crop the players seem to slight larger, plumper and juicier.....
Caco De'mon New Order Logistics CODE. 20	Posted - 2016.08.02 16:47:40 - [806] - Quote Quote: Is ratting in Null Sov such a dangerous activity? Way more than mining in HS. Quote: Everyone NEEDs a source of easy income But there is some risk in all of them OR a significant investment OR pretty good skill/knowledge. There are degrees when it comes to "easy" ISK and I agree with you. But what is always being argued here is that HS should totally safe to mine and obviously that would kill EVE because everyone just AFK mine for their PLEX. *"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17774	Posted - 2016.08.02 16:53:06 - [807] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: You have statistics, you have evidence - you do not have a method of scientifically sound, controlled and repeatable testing - so you will never progress beyond step 3 of the scientific method. You will never have PROOF that would stand up to true scientific review. It would be silly to even try for it - it is a game. Look as I say I agree with you on this point. I don't think it is significantly impacting the game. I was just offended that shae called it "scientific method" and implied that it was scientifically proven. As I say - it is a pet peeve of mine. I don't bother the call it scientific or not, to me its just data.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5059	Posted - 2016.08.02 16:54:21 - [808] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Were they doing things like not using a scout. Autopiloting? No webber? No escort at all? TBH I only saw a few groups... but 2 of them did not use scouts, and the third used a very expensively fit tengu to scout... He did manage to get his orca through with that one - but we still got 4 billion isk in loot from the tengu escort, so we were happy lol. Idiocy is not limited to high-sec in EVE - it is universe-wide. Absolutely. But I would argue we tend to see more complaints coming from HS people than LS/NS (AFK cloaking aside, and even then seems to me the complainers there are often renters). As I pointed out earlier its all about mechanics which aid the gankers, CCP just needs to do a balance pass. 1. More consequences for ganking as laid out by me and others in previous locked threads, most notably lock out of NPC Stations in hisec. 2. Look at the loot scooping and adjust for consequences 3. implement the bumping mechanic FFS 4. Grade in the EHP wreck to 15,000 so the emrgent gameplay around ganking wrecks is not destroyed outright That is the idiocy in plain view of many players. I disagree, one can avoid ganking by being prudent...just like other aspects of the game. Be prudent and you'll, by and large, be fine. No need to waste Dev time on something that the players can fix themselves. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 534	Posted - 2016.08.02 16:55:17 - [809] - Quote baltec1 wrote: If ganking is such a big problem then why is it having such an insignificant impact on the largest freight organisation? Finally! Baltec said something I can agree with: it's massively blown out of proportion and I don't think it's why players are leaving. Highsec lawyering could go on for decades with more and more amendments, exceptions and bugfixes in each patch; and it'd still just feel like "highsec". Unlike in the real world, the additional regulations are intentionally kept simple and mostly just, leading to an on-overall better experience... but it's simply not even close to being a major factor in player retention. In fact I think it is the danger, not the safety that keeps people hooked; and the safer EvE gets, the less exciting it becomes. Safety comes from things such as travelceptors, jumpfreighters, nullified cloaky T3s, pre-aligned bears, POSsed Orcas, unprobably boosters, acceleration grid regulations (no cyno, no warp-ins), instawarp T3 destroyers, ... and the harder it becomes to actually get a fight or at the very least a kill?- the more time we spend doing uneventful, boring stuff. Like roaming 68 jumps before FINALLY running into a living soul that is not an interceptor. Like camping for hours knowing full well that anything worthwhile will either jumpfreighter through or take a jump bridge. The better part of this thread was wasted -as usual- on highsec shennanigans but when will someone address the LACK OF TARGETS? The latter has several culprits, one being nowadays better PCs allows everyone and their uncle (except ole' Brokkies rustbucket) to multibox with dual or triple screens. Meaning there are eyes everywhere- and whenever something might happen, nope: they be long gone. Add to this the aforementioned mechanics standing between you and catching your prey, and it becomes indeed hard to find that 'good fight'. It practically requires one of the fleet commanders to get a scan on the hostile fleet, and to go for it anyway knowing full well they're probably heading home in an egg. Was it always like this? I don't know. All I know, is that we have to put in real and prolonged effort to get a couple of minutes of excitement, and that I've seen several good pilots slip into inactivity because of that.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5059	Posted - 2016.08.02 16:59:24 - [810] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: What you just demanded is the near removal of ganking, thats not balance. Rubbish, it makes it a bit harder that is all, it creates consequences, like other people in the game have mate. Ganking is already "hard". Just because some people make it look easy does not mean it is. Here is an OOG example. When my son first started competitive swimming I'd look at him and his team mates and marvel at how easy they made it look. It looked like they were just slipping through the water, I can't even describe it completely here. However, that was the result of thousands of hours of practice. Literally. Even at the age of 5 and 6 he was going to practice every day Monday through Friday and when he hit is teens often more than 7 times a week, plus dry land training. People putting alot of effort into something often make whatever it is they are doing look easy. This talk of ganking is "easy" is, IMO rubbish. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5059	Posted - 2016.08.02 17:03:52 - [811] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Hauling... NB Actually worse than ganking in terms of punishment... So they lose sec status when they complete a run? They lose their ship after every attempt to transport cargo? They get a kill right against them after every attempt at transporting cargo? They get no insurance when they die? They get attacked by the faction police? At the end of of their cargo run every stack and all their mods stand a 50% chance of being destroyed? No, the real risk to hauling is infact only from the very very rare chance they get targeted by a ganker. So rare infact that over the span of over a million gate jumps they stand a less than 0.01% chance of getting killed by a ganker. Try again. Don't forget the opportunity cost associated with ganking. Brokk pointed that out and it is indeed valid as it is the main objection of many who refuse to gank the bumping ship. You are taking an alt slot that you could be using to do something else, that is indeed a cost. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5059	Posted - 2016.08.02 17:06:13 - [812] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Where did you get that number from, pull it out of Jenn's megaphone? Red freight, the largest freight organisation in EVE. Not representative of all haulers mate... If I said the same thing about ganking you would be crawling all over me for it. No it isn't, but even if it is off by an order of magnitude it says ganking is a trivial issue. Even if it is off by 2 orders of magnitude a trivial issue. And it is something that haulers themselves can fix by simply playing prudently. So you still got literally not one scrap of empirical data other than all the whining on the forums by BadsGäó. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5059	Posted - 2016.08.02 17:09:23 - [813] - Quote John Volan wrote: Demica Diaz wrote: Ganking has many small effects on EVE but that is nowhere near the reason why EVE has less players playing. Not even close. Ganking is a very visible and very controversial thing when you're first starting the game as a newbie, just not to a vet. And it's those new players that it's having an effect on. I'm not saying it shouldn't... CCP went with the philosophy of HTFU over hand-holding but it comes at the expense of new player retention and it's disingenuous to say otherwise. No, not really. CCP looked at this too, there is a fanfest video about it on youtube (I can't find it while at work do to filters but you can find it if you do a google search or somebody may be kind and provide the link). The gist of it was they looked at new players (less than 90 days old IIRC) and in terms of ganks (being killed illegally) it was about 1% of those sampled. Further, they found that those ganked stuck with the game longer than those who were not ganked. Those killed illegally also stuck with the game longer than those who were not killed at all. Edit: Further, if it were such a big deal how come so many people are still so insistent on playing so damn imprudently? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 375	Posted - 2016.08.02 17:11:08 - [814] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Where did you get that number from, pull it out of Jenn's megaphone? Red freight, the largest freight organisation in EVE. Not representative of all haulers mate... If I said the same thing about ganking you would be crawling all over me for it. No it isn't, but even if it is off by an order of magnitude it says ganking is a trivial issue. Even if it is off by 2 orders of magnitude a trivial issue. And it is something that haulers themselves can fix by simply playing prudently. So you still got literally not one scrap of empirical data other than all the whining on the forums by BadsGäó. I'm guessing that due to some issues I addressed earlier the actual number for Red Frog Freight specifically is at around 1% of their runs that get ganked. This is not based on hard data sadly - but it seems like a pretty reasonable estimate for them. If you wanted more directly meaningful statistics for EVE in general you could park alts in all the choke points and count how many freighters go through, and how many get ganked - but one of the reasons there is so little actual hard data for EVE is that very few people are actually willing to put in any time to collect it - so all of our data comes from guesses and estimates based on statistics accumulated by external sites for other purposes.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5059	Posted - 2016.08.02 17:12:08 - [815] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Demica Diaz wrote: Ganking has many small effects on EVE but that is nowhere near the reason why EVE has less players playing. Not even close. And can you back that up with figures, do you know miners during the gankfest of wet paper bag tanks who were ganked and stayed on, I had contacts from before that period and none of them play the game now, all dropped out during that period after getting ganked so easily. Come on I am all ears.... FYI that is not data, that is anecdotes. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Doc Fury Furious Enterprises 8492	Posted - 2016.08.02 17:20:11 - [816] - Quote How about some CCP data? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A92Ge2S8M1Y;t=54s Gÿ+ The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper: 'Hodor'.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5059	Posted - 2016.08.02 17:20:47 - [817] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Where did you get that number from, pull it out of Jenn's megaphone? Red freight, the largest freight organisation in EVE. Not representative of all haulers mate... If I said the same thing about ganking you would be crawling all over me for it. Data collected over 1,883,479 gate jumps and 2,786,739 jumps from the previous year. Its representative of freighters, you won't find a larger collection of data. Well, as much as I hate to do anything to support Dracvlad, Red Frog freight IS an organization that plays prudently. So it is not representative of ganking in general, it is representative of ganking IF you play prudently. Now before Dracvlad says something stupid.... This shows that ganking is not a CCP problem, it is a player problem. Fly like Red Frog and you too can be ganked with a probability of 0.01% (or more accurately a probability of 0.0001). That is you'll get ganked once every 10,000 gate jumps. Stop being stupid and you'll be fine. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 375	Posted - 2016.08.02 17:24:57 - [818] - Quote Doc Fury wrote: How about some CCP data? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A92Ge2S8M1Y;t=54s It is a pretty limited sample set - but sure, it is data
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5059	Posted - 2016.08.02 17:26:23 - [819] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Where did you get that number from, pull it out of Jenn's megaphone? Red freight, the largest freight organisation in EVE. Not representative of all haulers mate... If I said the same thing about ganking you would be crawling all over me for it. No it isn't, but even if it is off by an order of magnitude it says ganking is a trivial issue. Even if it is off by 2 orders of magnitude a trivial issue. And it is something that haulers themselves can fix by simply playing prudently. So you still got literally not one scrap of empirical data other than all the whining on the forums by BadsGäó. I'm guessing that due to some issues I addressed earlier the actual number for Red Frog Freight specifically is at around 1% of their runs that get ganked. This is not based on hard data sadly - but it seems like a pretty reasonable estimate for them. If you wanted more directly meaningful statistics for EVE in general you could park alts in all the choke points and count how many freighters go through, and how many get ganked - but one of the reasons there is so little actual hard data for EVE is that very few people are actually willing to put in any time to collect it - so all of our data comes from guesses and estimates based on statistics accumulated by external sites for other purposes. You could come up with a first order approximation to the RFF gank rate, IMO, by dividing by the average number of gate jumps an RFF freighter takes. So, lets say it is 25 jumps. And a RFF freighter gets ganked, on average, on its 10,000 jump. So dividing 10,000 by 25 means the are ganked every 400th contract. If they also get ganked when moving while empty, then we could divide that by 2 and get the 200th contract. This would put the gank rate at about 0.005 or 0.5%. Not too far off your estimate. Again, this shows how prudence can be a factor in ganking. Dracvlad is literally arguing for imprudence. Literally. It's stupid. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5059	Posted - 2016.08.02 17:29:48 - [820] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Doc Fury wrote: How about some CCP data? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A92Ge2S8M1Y;t=54s It is a pretty limited sample set - but sure, it is data Limited? Is that the fanfest presentation on ganking? IIRC That was 80,000 accounts and somehow they excluded alt accounts. That is a pretty large sample. Where I work we have 5.2 million customers and we often work with samples of 50,000 and even those are, statistically speaking, pretty large samples--i.e. we could drop the number down and still have valid summary statistics. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Geronimo McVain McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc 159	Posted - 2016.08.02 17:31:42 - [821] - Quote Caco De'mon wrote: Quote: Is ratting in Null Sov such a dangerous activity? Way more than mining in HS. Maybe, but the rewards are also much higher then HS mining. They are around 3 times higher so are the risk REALLY higher, if you include the much better intel? Eve is about risk vs reward and so a low income activity should involve lower risk.[/quote] Caco De'mon wrote: Quote: Everyone NEEDs a source of easy income But there is some risk in all of them OR a significant investment OR pretty good skill/knowledge. There are degrees when it comes to "easy" ISK and I agree with you. But what is always being argued here is that HS should totally safe to mine and obviously that would kill EVE because everyone just AFK mine for their PLEX. This thread was about less players or why there are less new players. If there is such an abundance of HS-AFK-miners why not spare anything under 6 Month? Some of CODE said they would gank everything in a venture: which vet is mining in a venture? Most likely none but noobs that can't afford anything else. It's the arrogance of vets which kill everything because they can. Farming noobs just for fun, even if you are loosing money, may be fun but is destructive to as a whole. It's the same as Mittens STATING that the new tactic is "denying fun" and he doesn't get tarred and feathered by his corp. We are ALL here to have fun that's the reason why we are committing RL money and free time to this game. If everyones tactic is to deny everyone else fun, as the other one defines fun, this game will die.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 376	Posted - 2016.08.02 17:34:57 - [822] - Quote For the record - you guys got me curious enough to go to the Red Frog page and actually calculate the actual statistics from Red Frog Freight. My primary assumption here is that a "failed" contract = a gank. It is pretty well established that Red Frog is not a scamming organization and vets their pilots well - so I think this is a reasonably fair assumption: 2011: 54,530 contracts total - 16 failed = 0.0293% 2012: 110,290 contracts total - 194 failed = 0.1759% 2013: 223,414 contracts total - 260 failed = 0.1164% 2014: 235,505 contracts total - 245 failed = 0.1040% 2015: 149,028 contracts total - 382 failed = 0.2563% Make of them what you will - they are only statistics after all - but THOSE are the actual Red Frog numbers per their annual reports. edit: Additional note - I used only the actual "Red Frog* division's numbers - as they are the high-sec branch.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5059	Posted - 2016.08.02 17:38:43 - [823] - Quote Geronimo McVain wrote: This thread was about less players or why there are less new players. If there is such an abundance of HS-AFK-miners why not spare anything under 6 Month? Some of CODE said they would gank everything in a venture: which vet is mining in a venture? Most likely none but noobs that can't afford anything else. It's the arrogance of vets which kill everything because they can. Farming noobs just for fun, even if you are loosing money, may be fun but is destructive to as a whole. It's the same as Mittens STATING that the new tactic is "denying fun" and he doesn't get tarred and feathered by his corp. We are ALL here to have fun that's the reason why we are committing RL money and free time to this game. If everyones tactic is to deny everyone else fun, as the other one defines fun, this game will die. You know what I have a problem with this post is the blatant display of gross entitlement. When I started we did not have dedicated noob mining ships. Now, before some idiot comes along and says, stop complaining that you had it harder.... My point is that noob mining income has gotten buffed via a number of changes by CCP including the introduction of the venture. The price of tritanium and other HS minerals was **** when I was mining as a source of income. So you have a buffed source of income and here you are still whining because once in a great while another player comes along and ganks you when you are not paying attention. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 300	Posted - 2016.08.02 17:45:30 - [824] - Quote And we circle back to the beginning... How does the true new player (flying whatever new flavor of entrance miner) mystically know what to look for to avoid getting ganked by a pilot that has decided that Lulz & Tears is better currency than ISK? --Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
Caco De'mon New Order Logistics CODE. 21	Posted - 2016.08.02 17:46:01 - [825] - Quote Geronimo McVain wrote: Maybe, but the rewards are also much higher then HS mining. They are around 3 times higher so are the risk REALLY higher, if you include the much better intel? Eve is about risk vs reward and so a low income activity should involve lower risk. Yes but at the one end of the scale where some are demanding that HS be risk free, they are asking to have risk removed and be able to PLEX via mining (or whatever) with no chance of losing a ship. That would destroy EVE. If Hauling or mining in HS was really that risky then people wouldn't be doing it....yet they are everywhere. Something doesn't compute... Quote: This thread was about less players or why there are less new players. If there is such an abundance of HS-AFK-miners why not spare anything under 6 Month? CODE members are free to interact and enforce The Code as they see fit. Some are more hardcore than others. We all don't operate exactly the same. I personally try not to touch Vents that are "new" and actually let them know to change their damn ship name....sadly most don't even have local open. Quote: If everyones tactic is to deny everyone else fun, as the other one defines fun, this game will die. That's a false dichotomy. It's not one thing or the other but rather ALL things, you know, as CCP intended. If CODE is so evil then why don't more come after us? HS needs threats (we're not the only ones BTW) just as it needs saviors...except sadly, most just ask CONCORD/Popo/CCP to help rather than doing it themselves. *"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5060	Posted - 2016.08.02 17:46:56 - [826] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: For the record - you guys got me curious enough to go to the Red Frog page and actually calculate the actual statistics from Red Frog Freight. My primary assumption here is that a "failed" contract = a gank. It is pretty well established that Red Frog is not a scamming organization and vets their pilots well - so I think this is a reasonably fair assumption: 2011: 54,530 contracts total - 16 failed = 0.0293% 2012: 110,290 contracts total - 194 failed = 0.1759% 2013: 223,414 contracts total - 260 failed = 0.1164% 2014: 235,505 contracts total - 245 failed = 0.1040% 2015: 149,028 contracts total - 382 failed = 0.2563% Make of them what you will - they are only statistics after all - but THOSE are the actual Red Frog numbers per their annual reports. edit: Additional note - I used only the actual "Red Frog* division's numbers - as they are the high-sec branch. These are indicative of how likely ganking would be if players stopped being imprudent and foolish, IMO. It shows, IMO, that Dracvlad and everyone else complaining about freighter ganking have precisely zero on their side of the argument. As an aside, a failed contract could be due to the nature of the contract--e.g. wanting to move 10 billion or some other factor, so I'd consider these numbers an upper bound on the gank rate for RFF. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 77	Posted - 2016.08.02 17:47:35 - [827] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Dirty Forum Alt totally nailed it My focus is on what I would call casual hisec players, what was once a large subset of the Eve population. How do you know this to be a factual statement?
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 378	Posted - 2016.08.02 17:49:57 - [828] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: These are indicative of how likely ganking would be if players stopped being imprudent and foolish, IMO. It shows, IMO, that Dracvlad and everyone else complaining about freighter ganking have precisely zero on their side of the argument. As an aside, a failed contract could be due to the nature of the contract--e.g. wanting to move 10 billion or some other factor, so I'd consider these numbers an upper bound on the gank rate for RFF. I don't believe they count a contract as "failed" unless they accept it - but yes there are other reasons for a failure... Honestly though the numbers are so low I don't think it is statistically significant or worth worrying about. And I agree they are quite low - and easily reproducible by all haulers if they followed the same practices as Red Frog (their haulers have no super-powers after all). Honestly though I'd be surprised if even the most careless pilots bring the average up to more than ~1% across all of EVE for freighters. It would be nice if CCP tracked data for everybody and released some official statistics - server side monitoring is really the only way it could be done at that scale.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5060	Posted - 2016.08.02 17:51:04 - [829] - Quote Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: And we circle back to the beginning... How does the true new player (flying whatever new flavor of entrance miner) mystically know what to look for to avoid getting ganked by a pilot that has decided that Lulz & Tears is better currency than ISK? --Gadget Probably in a variety of ways. From other players talking about, by having been ganked, or not even learning it at all until they are not a new player and foolishly think that they can load up their freighter with 8 billion ISK worth of cargo and then get ganked. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Doc Fury Furious Enterprises 8494	Posted - 2016.08.02 17:51:38 - [830] - Quote Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: And we circle back to the beginning... How does the true new player (flying whatever new flavor of entrance miner) mystically know what to look for to avoid getting ganked by a pilot that has decided that Lulz & Tears is better currency than ISK? --Gadget New players should stick to the rookie systems where they are safe from ganking until they are more educated. Gÿ+ The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper: 'Hodor'.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 77	Posted - 2016.08.02 17:52:09 - [831] - Quote Pandora Carrollon wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Pandora Carrollton wrote: I can think of several things off the top of my head right now that would be fair and fun for the gankers as well as the AFK miners and haulers. There are solutions and we don't need these walls of text to deal with the relatively minor play issues being discussed. I just do not get this last bit in bold. I think you post reasonably and positively so please do not think I am attacking you. Why should we or the game designers do anything to encourage AFK ship activity that allows someone to profit? It's the very reason your supposition points out. Your comment demonstrates you have a negative bias against AFK miners. There's no way I can convince you to change that. As long as you have a negative bias toward ANY play style, you are in jeopardy of hypocrisy. Clearly CCP allows this play style. That should be good enough of an endorsement for every player of EVE. Your play style may be attacking AFK miners. That's allowed as well. Good enough of an endorsement for me. I'm saying, we need to advocate change that respects everyone's play style, even if we don't like it. Agreed, then the AFK players should not expect CCP to change the basis of the game to make their playstyle easier. It is possible to play AFK but it comes with a possible cost.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 77	Posted - 2016.08.02 17:58:33 - [832] - Quote Geronimo McVain wrote: This thread was about less players or why there are less new players. If there is such an abundance of HS-AFK-miners why not spare anything under 6 Month? Some of CODE said they would gank everything in a venture: which vet is mining in a venture? Most likely none but noobs that can't afford anything else. It's the arrogance of vets which kill everything because they can. Farming noobs just for fun, even if you are loosing money, may be fun but is destructive to as a whole. It's the same as Mittens STATING that the new tactic is "denying fun" and he doesn't get tarred and feathered by his corp. We are ALL here to have fun that's the reason why we are committing RL money and free time to this game. If everyones tactic is to deny everyone else fun, as the other one defines fun, this game will die. Deny it back
Shallanna Yassavi Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 298	Posted - 2016.08.02 18:00:20 - [833] - Quote Doc Fury wrote: Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: And we circle back to the beginning... How does the true new player (flying whatever new flavor of entrance miner) mystically know what to look for to avoid getting ganked by a pilot that has decided that Lulz & Tears is better currency than ISK? --Gadget New players should stick to the rookie systems where they are safe from ganking until they are more educated. How are they going to get educated in there? A signature :o
Doc Fury Furious Enterprises 8494	Posted - 2016.08.02 18:03:28 - [834] - Quote Shallanna Yassavi wrote: Doc Fury wrote: Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: And we circle back to the beginning... How does the true new player (flying whatever new flavor of entrance miner) mystically know what to look for to avoid getting ganked by a pilot that has decided that Lulz & Tears is better currency than ISK? --Gadget New players should stick to the rookie systems where they are safe from ganking until they are more educated. How are they going to get educated in there? Are you being intentionally obtuse? Gÿ+ The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper: 'Hodor'.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5061	Posted - 2016.08.02 18:06:10 - [835] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: If red frog did all the hauling in the game then yes, but they don't:... No they don't. Fortunately for CODE. and all other ganking groups, there are still plenty of imprudent and foolish freighter pilots around. Maybe AG should focus on helping these pilots not be imprudent and foolish--i.e. try to contact them and warn them before bullets start flying. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 537	Posted - 2016.08.02 18:57:57 - [836] - Quote Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: And we circle back to the beginning... How does the true new player (flying whatever new flavor of entrance miner) mystically know what to look for to avoid getting ganked by a pilot that has decided that Lulz & Tears is better currency than ISK? He dies once or twice. Then he knows.
Geronimo McVain McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc 160	Posted - 2016.08.02 19:35:24 - [837] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: And we circle back to the beginning... How does the true new player (flying whatever new flavor of entrance miner) mystically know what to look for to avoid getting ganked by a pilot that has decided that Lulz & Tears is better currency than ISK? He dies once or twice. Then he knows. What stops you from just pointing, shooting once, without killing him, and then telling him what he did wrong? You will loose your ship anyway and get nothing back. But I don't think that this is the real problem. In the beginning you are totally on your own and don't get any guidelines what to do next. The gaming industry changed since 2006 and so the expectations change too. In other games you either have a class or story to go along. In eve you are kicked out and have to find your way and to top it you are told a lot of ways to make money (industry, research) that are just not fitting for a noob.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 77	Posted - 2016.08.02 19:44:39 - [838] - Quote Geronimo McVain wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: And we circle back to the beginning... How does the true new player (flying whatever new flavor of entrance miner) mystically know what to look for to avoid getting ganked by a pilot that has decided that Lulz & Tears is better currency than ISK? He dies once or twice. Then he knows. What stops you from just pointing, shooting once, without killing him, and then telling him what he did wrong? You will loose your ship anyway and get nothing back. But I don't think that this is the real problem. In the beginning you are totally on your own and don't get any guidelines what to do next. The gaming industry changed since 2006 and so the expectations change too. In other games you either have a class or story to go along. In eve you are kicked out and have to find your way and to top it you are told a lot of ways to make money (industry, research) that are just not fitting for a noob. Yep - that's now EVE works. There is in game help chat channel, there is New Character QA on these forums, there are subforums for industrial, wormholes, missions, etc. There are numerous player run websites/guides and a vibrant EVE reddit. All the information, and there is a ridiculous amount of it, is available but not without any effort. The complexity is what makes the game playable long term. This is not a game with a defined starting and end point. That is why people can play it for 13 years.
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 538	Posted - 2016.08.02 19:48:29 - [839] - Quote Geronimo McVain wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: And we circle back to the beginning... How does the true new player (flying whatever new flavor of entrance miner) mystically know what to look for to avoid getting ganked by a pilot that has decided that Lulz & Tears is better currency than ISK? He dies once or twice. Then he knows. What stops you from just pointing, shooting once, without killing him, and then telling him what he did wrong? You will loose your ship anyway and get nothing back. Dude I don't even bother with highsec belts, rookie ships, capsules, ventures, shuttles or whatever else people are flying unless I perceive them as a threat or an immediate target. I'll open fire on a suspect or criminal if I happen to run across one but you don't expect me to hug every venture along the way to make sure they are feeling okay mmm? When I see a miner I also do not get this urge to kill it dead and club it till it unsubs. I've actually done just what you described on multiple occasions in nullsec: pointed them, shot them through shield, then ran off to assist friends who had tackled something far more interesting. Out of the kindness of my heart. Did you know I've even reimbursed several obvious rookies (rifters, algos, a probe and a venture who was apparently unaware of the inner workings of drag bubbles) as soon as I glanced over the killmails and saw they must have took a wrong turn and wound up a little too far from Heimatar? Nah man. Barking up the wrong tree here. When I do shoot someone completely out of their league I reimburse, open a convo and try to help them along and do you know what they do? They either close convo, start insulting me or put a bounty on my head hoping their merc friends will come show me the error of my ways. Only once did such a victim take my advice and thank me for it. ONCE.
Geronimo McVain McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc 160	Posted - 2016.08.02 19:50:37 - [840] - Quote Doc Fury wrote: Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: And we circle back to the beginning... How does the true new player (flying whatever new flavor of entrance miner) mystically know what to look for to avoid getting ganked by a pilot that has decided that Lulz & Tears is better currency than ISK? --Gadget New players should stick to the rookie systems where they are safe from ganking until they are more educated. Eve is about player made content but with such a lot of freedom there is also some responsibility. So we all might sometimes think twice.
Geronimo McVain McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc 160	Posted - 2016.08.02 20:00:54 - [841] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Geronimo McVain wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: And we circle back to the beginning... How does the true new player (flying whatever new flavor of entrance miner) mystically know what to look for to avoid getting ganked by a pilot that has decided that Lulz & Tears is better currency than ISK? He dies once or twice. Then he knows. What stops you from just pointing, shooting once, without killing him, and then telling him what he did wrong? You will loose your ship anyway and get nothing back. Dude I don't even bother with highsec belts, rookie ships, capsules, ventures, shuttles or whatever else people are flying unless I perceive them as a threat or an immediate target. I'll open fire on a suspect or criminal if I happen to run across one but you don't expect me to hug every venture along the way to make sure they are feeling okay mmm? When I see a miner I also do not get this urge to kill it dead and club it till it unsubs. I've actually done just what you described on multiple occasions in nullsec: pointed them, shot them through shield, then ran off to assist friends who had tackled something far more interesting. Out of the kindness of my heart. Did you know I've even reimbursed several obvious rookies (rifters, algos, a probe and a venture who was apparently unaware of the inner workings of drag bubbles) as soon as I glanced over the killmails and saw they must have took a wrong turn and wound up a little too far from Heimatar? Nah man. Barking up the wrong tree here. When I do shoot someone completely out of their league I reimburse, open a convo and try to help them along and do you know what they do? They either close convo, start insulting me or put a bounty on my head hoping their merc friends will come show me the error of my ways. Only once did such a victim take my advice and thank me for it. ONCE. I'm not accusing anyone of anything. It's just that there are more ways to learn by dying. There are a lot of fine people out there. It's just that many seam just to be scared to admit that they are not ultra cool and hard hearted.
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 538	Posted - 2016.08.02 20:02:59 - [842] - Quote Geronimo McVain wrote: I'm not accusing anyone of anything. It's just that there are more ways to learn by dying. There are a lot of fine people out there. It's just that many seam just to be scared to admit that they are not ultra cool and hard hearted. Restraint adds character to a character. Practice it in moderate doses though
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17776	Posted - 2016.08.02 20:08:20 - [843] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: So you still got literally not one scrap of empirical data other than all the whining on the forums by BadsGäó. I'm guessing that due to some issues I addressed earlier the actual number for Red Frog Freight specifically is at around 1% of their runs that get ganked. This is not based on hard data sadly - but it seems like a pretty reasonable estimate for them. [/quote] Actually its 0.25% and that includes all failed contracts not just ganked.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17776	Posted - 2016.08.02 20:15:42 - [844] - Quote Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: And we circle back to the beginning... How does the true new player (flying whatever new flavor of entrance miner) mystically know what to look for to avoid getting ganked by a pilot that has decided that Lulz & Tears is better currency than ISK? --Gadget Two ways. Go look it up or learn from experience. When I first started I chose to try doing missions in a balckbird because I thought it looked cool, I also bought an arbitrator because that too looked cool. Both died horribly. Right now I am learning capital ships, namely the dreadnought and by god have I made some mistakes.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 380	Posted - 2016.08.02 21:37:01 - [845] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: I'm guessing that due to some issues I addressed earlier the actual number for Red Frog Freight specifically is at around 1% of their runs that get ganked. This is not based on hard data sadly - but it seems like a pretty reasonable estimate for them. Actually its 0.25% and that includes all failed contracts not just ganked. Your quote broke - and yes, I know, I'm the one who did the math But yeah, that 1% was purely a guess....that is why I went and did the math, I felt bad guessing after my rant earlier.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 701	Posted - 2016.08.02 22:19:24 - [846] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: This i size of 200 - 100% of coins land head-side up. People like you will take this and say that I have proven that any coin flipped will land head-side up 100% of the time...but we all know this is ridiculous. Just because I got bad samples for a single survey and released a misleading statistic, it doesn't make the results true for the rest of the world. The scientific method is an intentionally difficult, long, and rigorous process to remove discrepancies of this type and to ensure that the results are actually proven - not merely indicated by 1 potentially skewed set of uncontrolled observations. People like me will what? Where did you get that stupid judgement from? As to scientific method, we all of us are people beyond our characters with varied backgrounds and experiences. Mine happens to be with a PhD in Chemistry, so I'm quite comfortable with both my understanding and application of scientific method. Bickering about the level of thinking about the issue isn't an important focus of the discussion overall and doesn't change the original point being made.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 380	Posted - 2016.08.02 23:01:24 - [847] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: This i size of 200 - 100% of coins land head-side up. People like you will take this and say that I have proven that any coin flipped will land head-side up 100% of the time...but we all know this is ridiculous. Just because I got bad samples for a single survey and released a misleading statistic, it doesn't make the results true for the rest of the world. The scientific method is an intentionally difficult, long, and rigorous process to remove discrepancies of this type and to ensure that the results are actually proven - not merely indicated by 1 potentially skewed set of uncontrolled observations. People like me will what? Where did you get that stupid judgement from? As to scientific method, we all of us are people beyond our characters with varied backgrounds and experiences. Mine happens to be with a PhD in Chemistry, so I'm quite comfortable with both my understanding and application of scientific method. Bickering about the level of thinking about the issue isn't an important focus of the discussion overall and doesn't change the original point being made. Perhaps from the way you took a meaningless statistic about # of freighters ganked vs # of jumps for Red Frog and stated that it proved something via the scientific method... As someone with a PhD in Chemistry, you of all people should know that precision of wording matters...and that statistics do not consitute any level of scientific "proof" You are correct however that it doesn't change the core point being made regarding ganking. It just means that nobody has any proof one way or another - just a statistical sampling which we believe indicates something about it.
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 541	Posted - 2016.08.02 23:04:38 - [848] - Quote Which is obviously the best anyone can do and a helluvalot better than guesstimating some assumption and building upon that. Aye?
Paranoid Loyd 9335	Posted - 2016.08.02 23:08:48 - [849] - Quote Yarr! I mean Aye! What are we talking about again? Where's my damn rum? Fix the Prospect! New Server Hardware!
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 380	Posted - 2016.08.02 23:11:49 - [850] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Which is obviously the best anyone can do and a helluvalot better than guesstimating some assumption and building upon that. Aye? Lol yes, yes it is
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 543	Posted - 2016.08.02 23:12:21 - [851] - Quote Someone in a retriever once stole captain Hookbill's crates of rhum and they're getting murderzoned on the seven highsec seas ever since. And me? I'm still looking for me glass eye lad.
Paranoid Loyd 9335	Posted - 2016.08.02 23:14:42 - [852] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: And me? I'm still looking for me glass eye lad. Heh, I might have a spare implant around if you can't find your eye. Fix the Prospect! New Server Hardware!
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17776	Posted - 2016.08.03 00:18:44 - [853] - Quote Paranoid Loyd wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: And me? I'm still looking for me glass eye lad. Heh, I might have a spare implant around if you can't find your eye. Ok sorry to derail, back to talking in circles without enough data. More data.
Paranoid Loyd 9337	Posted - 2016.08.03 00:29:48 - [854] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Paranoid Loyd wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: And me? I'm still looking for me glass eye lad. Heh, I might have a spare implant around if you can't find your eye. Ok sorry to derail, back to talking in circles without enough data. More data. Man that was a trippy episode. Fix the Prospect! New Server Hardware!
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5061	Posted - 2016.08.03 03:58:45 - [855] - Quote Okay, here is the youtube video of the CCP presentation on new players and ganking. This actually has data, after all CCP did the work and they have the data. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A92Ge2S8M1Y The video discusses how CCP tried to measure if ganking drives away new players--i.e. people who are new to the game. The took 80,000 users--i.e. not alt accounts. FYI as per my previous post that is ALOT of users. As I noted for our customers if we wanted population level statistics we'd use a sample of say 2,500 out of 5.2 million. So spare this nonsense about the sample being limited, too small, etc. Before you post something like that get thee to a statistics course. Checked for deaths in the first 15 days. Checked to see who, if anyone, killed the killer--i.e. was it another player, nobody, or CONCORD. Based on the above, new players were categorized into not killed, killed legally, killed illegally--i.e. ganked. Then the looked at retention--i.e. how long did they stay with the game. Order of retention, longest to shortest was, Killed illegally, killed legally, not killed at all. Other results were that 85.5% do not die in the first 15 days. 13.5% were killed legally, and the remaining 1% were ganked. Take away: 1. 1% of new players are ganked in their first 15 days. 2. Players who are ganked will tend to stick with the game longer. 3. All the other whining to the contrary in this thread has **** all for data or analysis, so you can have a nice cup of STFU. 4. New players are not being slaughtered wholesale. That narrative is just a bullshit lie. 5. Yes, this is counter intuitive, but that is why we have mathematics and statistics, so please, enjoy that cup of STFU. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 76	Posted - 2016.08.03 05:03:18 - [856] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Okay, here is the youtube video of the CCP presentation on new players and ganking. This actually has data, after all CCP did the work and they have the data. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A92Ge2S8M1Y The video discusses how CCP tried to measure if ganking drives away new players--i.e. people who are new to the game. The took 80,000 users--i.e. not alt accounts. FYI as per my previous post that is ALOT of users. As I noted for our customers if we wanted population level statistics we'd use a sample of say 2,500 out of 5.2 million. So spare this nonsense about the sample being limited, too small, etc. Before you post something like that get thee to a statistics course. Checked for deaths in the first 15 days. Checked to see who, if anyone, killed the killer--i.e. was it another player, nobody, or CONCORD. Based on the above, new players were categorized into not killed, killed legally, killed illegally--i.e. ganked. Then the looked at retention--i.e. how long did they stay with the game. Order of retention, longest to shortest was, Killed illegally, killed legally, not killed at all. Other results were that 85.5% do not die in the first 15 days. 13.5% were killed legally, and the remaining 1% were ganked. Take away: 1. 1% of new players are ganked in their first 15 days. 2. Players who are ganked will tend to stick with the game longer. 3. All the other whining to the contrary in this thread has **** all for data or analysis, so you can have a nice cup of STFU. 4. New players are not being slaughtered wholesale. That narrative is just a bullshit lie. 5. Yes, this is counter intuitive, but that is why we have mathematics and statistics, so please, enjoy that cup of STFU. So they keep saying ganked players stick longer to the game, basing this on a 1% statistic? I have no words...
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5063	Posted - 2016.08.03 05:28:52 - [857] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Okay, here is the youtube video of the CCP presentation on new players and ganking. This actually has data, after all CCP did the work and they have the data. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A92Ge2S8M1Y The video discusses how CCP tried to measure if ganking drives away new players--i.e. people who are new to the game. The took 80,000 users--i.e. not alt accounts. FYI as per my previous post that is ALOT of users. As I noted for our customers if we wanted population level statistics we'd use a sample of say 2,500 out of 5.2 million. So spare this nonsense about the sample being limited, too small, etc. Before you post something like that get thee to a statistics course. Checked for deaths in the first 15 days. Checked to see who, if anyone, killed the killer--i.e. was it another player, nobody, or CONCORD. Based on the above, new players were categorized into not killed, killed legally, killed illegally--i.e. ganked. Then the looked at retention--i.e. how long did they stay with the game. Order of retention, longest to shortest was, Killed illegally, killed legally, not killed at all. Other results were that 85.5% do not die in the first 15 days. 13.5% were killed legally, and the remaining 1% were ganked. Take away: 1. 1% of new players are ganked in their first 15 days. 2. Players who are ganked will tend to stick with the game longer. 3. All the other whining to the contrary in this thread has **** all for data or analysis, so you can have a nice cup of STFU. 4. New players are not being slaughtered wholesale. That narrative is just a bullshit lie. 5. Yes, this is counter intuitive, but that is why we have mathematics and statistics, so please, enjoy that cup of STFU. So they keep saying ganked players stick longer to the game, basing this on a 1% statistic? I have no words... Yeah, maybe you need a course in statistics. That is based on 8,000 players. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Caleb Seremshur The Atomic Fallout Kids 830	Posted - 2016.08.03 06:20:00 - [858] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Order of retention, longest to shortest was, Killed illegally, killed legally, not killed at all. Other results were that 85.5% do not die in the first 15 days. 13.5% were killed legally, and the remaining 1% were ganked. Take away: 1. 1% of new players are ganked in their first 15 days. 2. Players who are ganked will tend to stick with the game longer. 3. All the other whining to the contrary in this thread has **** all for data or analysis, so you can have a nice cup of STFU. 4. New players are not being slaughtered wholesale. That narrative is just a bullshit lie. 5. Yes, this is counter intuitive, but that is why we have mathematics and statistics, so please, enjoy that cup of STFU. So they keep saying ganked players stick longer to the game, basing this on a 1% statistic? I have no words... Yeah, maybe you need a course in statistics. That is based on 8,000 players. 80,000*0.01 = 800.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5063	Posted - 2016.08.03 06:32:20 - [859] - Quote Caleb Seremshur wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Order of retention, longest to shortest was, Killed illegally, killed legally, not killed at all. Other results were that 85.5% do not die in the first 15 days. 13.5% were killed legally, and the remaining 1% were ganked. Take away: 1. 1% of new players are ganked in their first 15 days. 2. Players who are ganked will tend to stick with the game longer. 3. All the other whining to the contrary in this thread has **** all for data or analysis, so you can have a nice cup of STFU. 4. New players are not being slaughtered wholesale. That narrative is just a bullshit lie. 5. Yes, this is counter intuitive, but that is why we have mathematics and statistics, so please, enjoy that cup of STFU. So they keep saying ganked players stick longer to the game, basing this on a 1% statistic? I have no words... Yeah, maybe you need a course in statistics. That is based on 8,000 players. 80,000*0.01 = 800. Still it is good enough. Edit: To be clear if 2,500 is a good enough sample for 5.2 million customers then 800 is fine if we have 500,000 customers. Everyone wants to rubbish the CCP analysis...but then again those people also have an agenda to push. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Geronimo McVain McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc 160	Posted - 2016.08.03 06:58:05 - [860] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Yep - that's now EVE works. There is in game help chat channel, there is New Character QA on these forums, there are subforums for industrial, wormholes, missions, etc. There are numerous player run websites/guides and a vibrant EVE reddit. All the information, and there is a ridiculous amount of it, is available but not without any effort. The complexity is what makes the game playable long term. This is not a game with a defined starting and end point. That is why people can play it for 13 years. Yes it is Eves way now. The problem is not the complexity but the missing help to deal with it. Why dos even a simple shooter has a tutorial that tells you the basics of game mechanic but Eve doesn't even tell you how to properly fit a ship? Just a copy of the Uni Wiki sides about shield and armor tanking would be sufficient. Why does it tell you how to manufacture and research things when this career only becomes a real choice after 3-6 month if you have the money to invest? You are using a computer which is only really usable when you hide all the programming stuff from the user. You can either be a user or a programmer but most people don't have the time to be both. Windows is ultra complex but hides it from 99% of the users. What does it do if there are some storys that pulls the noob in and tells him what to do instead of kicking him out and just let him find his way? It doesn't touch the complexity it just helps him to learn a complex game. What you are proposing, and what Eve is doing is as if someone wants to learn an instrument and just toss him some notes and tell him the relevant stuff may be found in the Internet.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5064	Posted - 2016.08.03 07:12:46 - [861] - Quote Geronimo McVain wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Yep - that's now EVE works. There is in game help chat channel, there is New Character QA on these forums, there are subforums for industrial, wormholes, missions, etc. There are numerous player run websites/guides and a vibrant EVE reddit. All the information, and there is a ridiculous amount of it, is available but not without any effort. The complexity is what makes the game playable long term. This is not a game with a defined starting and end point. That is why people can play it for 13 years. Yes it is Eves way now. The problem is not the complexity but the missing help to deal with it. Why dos even a simple shooter has a tutorial that tells you the basics of game mechanic but Eve doesn't even tell you how to properly fit a ship? Just a copy of the Uni Wiki sides about shield and armor tanking would be sufficient. Why does it tell you how to manufacture and research things when this career only becomes a real choice after 3-6 month if you have the money to invest? You are using a computer which is only really usable when you hide all the programming stuff from the user. You can either be a user or a programmer but most people don't have the time to be both. Windows is ultra complex but hides it from 99% of the users. What does it do if there are some storys that pulls the noob in and tells him what to do instead of kicking him out and just let him find his way? It doesn't touch the complexity it just helps him to learn a complex game. What you are proposing, and what Eve is doing is as if someone wants to learn an instrument and just toss him some notes and tell him the relevant stuff may be found in the Internet. None of this necessitates at change of mechanics and requires only letting new players know about things like the Eve Uni Wiki and other sources of information. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2081	Posted - 2016.08.03 07:14:20 - [862] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Caleb Seremshur wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Order of retention, longest to shortest was, Killed illegally, killed legally, not killed at all. Other results were that 85.5% do not die in the first 15 days. 13.5% were killed legally, and the remaining 1% were ganked. Take away: 1. 1% of new players are ganked in their first 15 days. 2. Players who are ganked will tend to stick with the game longer. 3. All the other whining to the contrary in this thread has **** all for data or analysis, so you can have a nice cup of STFU. 4. New players are not being slaughtered wholesale. That narrative is just a bullshit lie. 5. Yes, this is counter intuitive, but that is why we have mathematics and statistics, so please, enjoy that cup of STFU. So they keep saying ganked players stick longer to the game, basing this on a 1% statistic? I have no words... Yeah, maybe you need a course in statistics. That is based on 8,000 players. 80,000*0.01 = 800. Still it is good enough. Edit: To be clear if 2,500 is a good enough sample for 5.2 million customers then 800 is fine if we have 500,000 customers. Everyone wants to rubbish the CCP analysis...but then again those people also have an agenda to push. And it is more data and analysis that the "ganking is bad" side has. So lets go with the side with no data, no analysis and has an agenda they want to push. Don't give up your day job mate... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5064	Posted - 2016.08.03 07:32:15 - [863] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Don't give up your day job mate... And what have you got? Oh yeah, nothing besides some anecdotes. You are about to take Dinsdale's crown. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2081	Posted - 2016.08.03 07:45:29 - [864] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Don't give up your day job mate... And what have you got? Oh yeah, nothing besides some anecdotes. You are about to take Dinsdale's crown. You think 800 15 day old characters is meaningful, facepalm... It represents purely what it says it does, that within the trial period being ganked had no impact on those new players and was even beneficial. CCP Rise was only interested in new players those trying the game for the first time. Dinsdale was actually spot on in terms of what he said would happen to Eve. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5064	Posted - 2016.08.03 07:58:23 - [865] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Don't give up your day job mate... And what have you got? Oh yeah, nothing besides some anecdotes. You are about to take Dinsdale's crown. You think 800 15 day old characters is meaningful, facepalm... It represents purely what it says it does, that within the trial period being ganked had no impact on those new players and was even beneficial. CCP Rise was only interested in new players those trying the game for the first time. Dinsdale was actually spot on in terms of what he said would happen to Eve. Thank you for displaying your ignorance of statistics. And again, you have literally, nothing. No data, no analysis, no summary statistics, nothing...you have literally **** all. Keep telling us that nothing trumps something. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Jasmine Deer Perkone Caldari State 22	Posted - 2016.08.03 08:04:41 - [866] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: So lets go with the side with no data, no analysis and has an agenda they want to push. The data belongs to CCP. There is disagreement on the analysis. You don't have an agenda ?
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5064	Posted - 2016.08.03 08:18:59 - [867] - Quote Jasmine Deer wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: So lets go with the side with no data, no analysis and has an agenda they want to push. The data belongs to CCP. There is disagreement on the analysis. You don't have an agenda ? If the data and analysis showed that ganking was causing new players to leave the game I'd be open to ideas on how to mitigate that problem. But it doesn't. And I doubt CCP is wiling to cling to a view that would mean a loss of revenues and profits. Sure maybe they would, but you'd better have a good narrative for that. Right now the other side has nothing, and I mean nothing. No data. No analysis. They can't even be arsed to go to something like zkill and pull data. I have no sympathy for them. They are a classic example of what is known as rent seeking in economics. Arguing for special snowflake consideration. My view is literally: screw them and the horse they rode in on. The game has been buffed, and buffed, and buffed in their favor. Changes to drone poo, changes to loot reprocessing, changes to mineral requirements, the venture, and yet here they are whining like a bunch of petulant 3 year olds. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5065	Posted - 2016.08.03 08:42:56 - [868] - Quote BTW, the disagreement on the analysis is just bullshit. Tell me, in terms of statistics, why the analysis is wrong. There is this thing called sampling theory that will tell you why your sample is "bad". Instead we get these snide comments completely devoid of any actual rigor. I have explained why when we have 5.2 million customers we go with a sample of 50,000. So that if somebody comes back and says, "So what about people in this region?" We will be pretty sure we will actually have customers in that region as opposed to saying, "Oh...well our sample has nobody in that region." We could use a stratified sampling process as well, but sometimes it is just easier to go with a really big sample and just be done with it. Seriously, I have yet to see a serious objection based on anything other than a snide comment by somebody whose knowledge of statistics I don't find very impressive. In fact, I'll go even further. People often dismiss empirical evidence contrary to their prior beliefs. What? That does not support my view...well the data must be wrong. The analysis is faulty. I simply cannot change my views on this no matter what. As for myself, if you really want to know, I am a Bayesian. I have my prior beliefs, but I also am willing to let the data change my beliefs. In this case, what data and analysis we have does not indicate a change in my beliefs. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Caleb Seremshur The Atomic Fallout Kids 830	Posted - 2016.08.03 09:15:59 - [869] - Quote Regarding the idea of gaining new long-term players CCP has a bit of a problem. On the one hand their promo works and invite incentives are pretty good at drumming up interest, on the other hand because centrally all events in the game are conspired by players as groups or individuals and CCP can't mess with that without breaking something new players are at the mercy of the existing playerbase - from the perspective that they either find an engaging group to join or find an engaging enough activity that provides rewards acute enough to make the activity worth doing, or their trial expires often with people having quit before the expiry. Some of us here have been around for a very long time, has CCP exhausted its options? Dev led training schools didn't last. Jesus features didn't work. "I was there" and "This is EVE" didn't really work either. It boils down to some very small parts regarding wish fulfillment and capacity for growth. I'm not going to offer any ideas here. I think first we need to look at the problem and why it's a problem and then think of solutions. Core issue: players don't convert from trials to 2+ year subs often enough. Evidence: some 8 million trial accounts renamed/delisted during the mass purge event. Causes of these failures to convert: ??
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17782	Posted - 2016.08.03 09:17:32 - [870] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: I repeat so even you lot can get it, I am focused on real hisec based players, people who spend nearly all their time in hisec, that is the sample I am interested in. So red freight and the new players CCP looked into.
voetius Quiet Days in Clichy 409	Posted - 2016.08.03 09:22:03 - [871] - Quote @Teckos. There is one fatal flaw with the example statistic that people use about ganked players and player retention and that is that it can also be explained by "survivorship bias". From Wikipedia: Survivorship bias, or survival bias, is the logical error of concentrating on the people or things that "survived" some process and inadvertently overlooking those that did not because of their lack of visibility. This can lead to false conclusions in several different ways. This is not to say that CCP are incorrect, it would need more data to determine the answer either way. So your point may be valid or it may not, but the argument based on ganking and retention needs a it more work to be conclusive.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17782	Posted - 2016.08.03 09:30:03 - [872] - Quote Caleb Seremshur wrote: Causes of these failures to convert: ?? I would say a reduction in player interaction in highsec has had an impact. If we look back what what was different back when the game was growing compared to now one standout thing is the level of safety has gone up but at the cost of reducing the amount of pvp. This game is built upon player interaction so it can't be a coincidence that the numbers staying has gone down as pvp options have been reduced. For example mining. Today the risk to miners is next to zero, only CODE attack them and not in any meaningful way, its just random terrorist attacks. In the past you had a reason to attack them and the attacks were targeted which meant there was some skill involved with fitting and flying a barge. We had things like hulkageddon and the ice interdictions, Dracvlad will scream about their targeting of miners but these events created a lot of content in highsec for everyone including the miners. The constant nerfs to highsec PvP has resulted in a lot of content being removed from highsec. Its not the only thing but it has to be significant.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17782	Posted - 2016.08.03 09:33:28 - [873] - Quote voetius wrote: @Teckos. There is one fatal flaw with the example statistic that people use about ganked players and player retention and that is that it can also be explained by "survivorship bias". From Wikipedia: Survivorship bias, or survival bias, is the logical error of concentrating on the people or things that "survived" some process and inadvertently overlooking those that did not because of their lack of visibility. This can lead to false conclusions in several different ways. This is not to say that CCP are incorrect, it would need more data to determine the answer either way. So your point may be valid or it may not, but the argument based on ganking and retention needs a it more work to be conclusive. How much more? We looked at the largest freight organisation in eve, CCP looked at a huge number of new accounts and zkill all say the exact same thing. Ganking is very very rare. Where exactly is the evidence to say ganking is a problem?
Geronimo McVain McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc 160	Posted - 2016.08.03 09:43:05 - [874] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: None of this necessitates at change of mechanics and requires only letting new players know about things like the Eve Uni Wiki and other sources of information. So you are proposing to just keep going because the player base is growing at an incredible rate? Because it worked yesterday doesn't mean that it will work tomorrow. When the player base is going down you have to change something. What do you propose to change?
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17782	Posted - 2016.08.03 09:50:56 - [875] - Quote Geronimo McVain wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: None of this necessitates at change of mechanics and requires only letting new players know about things like the Eve Uni Wiki and other sources of information. So you are proposing to just keep going because the player base is growing at an incredible rate? Because it worked yesterday doesn't mean that it will work tomorrow. When the player base is going down you have to change something. What do you propose to change? Undo the changes that have removed content from highsec?
Geronimo McVain McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc 160	Posted - 2016.08.03 10:11:36 - [876] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Undo the changes that have removed content from highsec? Maybe the vets start to search for PvP content in low or Null?
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 81	Posted - 2016.08.03 10:30:16 - [877] - Quote Geronimo McVain wrote: baltec1 wrote: Undo the changes that have removed content from highsec? Maybe the vets start to search for PvP content in low or Null? Nah, they want free easier ganking just to gain more money, to play for free forever is not enough...
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2081	Posted - 2016.08.03 10:52:56 - [878] - Quote Teckos you have no idea at all. Linking to things and pretending to know what you are talking about means nothing to me. It is highly likely CCP do not have the data, for example they certainly do not have the data for why people leave the game. My bet is that CCP do not keep the data to enable this analysis and if they do they have only started doing it because from any measurement of competency the period when all mining ships had the tank of a wet paper bag, and the destroyers had a massive DPS buff, they only acted years later. To me that is simply a company that had no idea on their clients and were simplistically looking at logins and over all subs and not drilling down to understand their loss of customers. To analyse your clients properly takes a lot of planning and clear focused foresight. It will not come from people who just say HTFU... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 83	Posted - 2016.08.03 11:03:00 - [879] - Quote For me personally I have most of my chars under wardec.... I'm lucky I live in other places than hisec, but I see a drastical reduction of online corpmates everytime there is a wardec and they are absolutely too frequent even if I belong to little corps... wardecs + ganking = CCP loses players in my opinion, buth they seem to care zero so....
Caleb Seremshur The Atomic Fallout Kids 830	Posted - 2016.08.03 11:28:16 - [880] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Caleb Seremshur wrote: Causes of these failures to convert: ?? I would say a reduction in player interaction in highsec has had an impact. If we look back what what was different back when the game was growing compared to now one standout thing is the level of safety has gone up but at the cost of reducing the amount of pvp. This game is built upon player interaction so it can't be a coincidence that the numbers staying has gone down as pvp options have been reduced. For example mining. Today the risk to miners is next to zero, only CODE attack them and not in any meaningful way, its just random terrorist attacks. In the past you had a reason to attack them and the attacks were targeted which meant there was some skill involved with fitting and flying a barge. We had things like hulkageddon and the ice interdictions, Dracvlad will scream about their targeting of miners but these events created a lot of content in highsec for everyone including the miners. The constant nerfs to highsec PvP has resulted in a lot of content being removed from highsec. Its not the only thing but it has to be significant. Basically, the bears screamed nerf, CCP listened and the bears then found the game boring because nothing exciting or challanging happens anymore. I really don't identify with these nerfs - I actually no longer remember what changes were introduced. The removal of insurance from gank ships?
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17787	Posted - 2016.08.03 12:14:34 - [881] - Quote Caleb Seremshur wrote: I really don't identify with these nerfs - I actually no longer remember what changes were introduced. The removal of insurance from gank ships? That was actually one of the smarter nerfs, even the most ardent ganker thought free battleships was a silly thing. By far the biggest nerf was when CCP did the two barge balance passes. They effectively killed jetcan piracy, interdictions, hulkageddon and so on. They basically said miners are too stupid to be trusted to fit their own ships so did it for them and at the same time removed all the content that used to revolve around mining in highsec. We have also seen other changes such as increased tank on all ships, reduced concord response times and so on. There is no arguing that we have lost a great deal of content from highsec over the last few years.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2082	Posted - 2016.08.03 12:30:58 - [882] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Caleb Seremshur wrote: I really don't identify with these nerfs - I actually no longer remember what changes were introduced. The removal of insurance from gank ships? That was actually one of the smarter nerfs, even the most ardent ganker thought free battleships was a silly thing. By far the biggest nerf was when CCP did the two barge balance passes. They effectively killed jetcan piracy, interdictions, hulkageddon and so on. They basically said miners are too stupid to be trusted to fit their own ships so did it for them and at the same time removed all the content that used to revolve around mining in highsec. We have also seen other changes such as increased tank on all ships, reduced concord response times and so on. There is no arguing that we have lost a great deal of content from highsec over the last few years. So why do you moan about it and detail it as a nerf? Jet can mining was replaced with suspect baiting, you don't like it as it is more risk, we have gone through this before. Increased tank on mining ships was finely applied two and a half years after the DPS of destroyers was massively buffed. It was called balancing and it just showed how bad CCP were in seeing what was going on with their game. The same issue in terms of buffing ganking by increasing the EHP of the freighter wreck from 500 EHP to 15,000 EHP. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 706	Posted - 2016.08.03 13:42:04 - [883] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: .The same issue in terms of buffing ganking by increasing the EHP of the freighter wreck from 500 EHP to 15,000 EHP. I'm beginning to really appreciate this change. You're continually crying like a stuck pig because of it. That's quite entertaining.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2082	Posted - 2016.08.03 14:06:40 - [884] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dracvlad wrote: .The same issue in terms of buffing ganking by increasing the EHP of the freighter wreck from 500 EHP to 15,000 EHP. I'm beginning to really appreciate this change. You're continually crying like a stuck pig because of it. That's quite entertaining. Of course you would appreciate the change, but my issue is really that it removed a fun bit of gameplay for the AG players where they could be aggressive and the gankers had to defend against ganking themselves, which of course was too much for them. So they ran off and cried about it. But what annoys me is that CCP not knowing what was going on in hisec just blundered into making the change without thinking it through, then when they realised they buffed freighter EHP to balance out against it. Personally I would like the two reversed. But when you hear the gankers go on about the buff to freighters and Jump Freighters when the DCU II got made passive, just bear in mind that this was done to balance out against the freighter wreck EHP bufff (but you will not of courese) and in fact does not balance out at all in terms of gameplay. What got me to actually point it out was the numerous times I saw gankers whining about nerfs and including this in their whine. So if a loser like you thinks it is entertaining that bothers me not. All I am interested in is showing the hypocrisy of gankers and their shrills, plus point out the balance issues around ganking of which this is one part. And there you go. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 83	Posted - 2016.08.03 14:31:41 - [885] - Quote Anyway if you go on reddit there is a post where someone analyzes financial situation of eve and it proves that they are losing clients, raising profit cutting costs, everyone says it's not good. I don't know if I can link reddit posts, maybe not ( and I don't want to be censored), but it proves that they need to carefully think why they are losing players...
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 382	Posted - 2016.08.03 14:47:16 - [886] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Anyway if you go on reddit there is a post where someone analyzes financial situation of eve and it proves that they are losing clients, raising profit cutting costs, everyone says it's not good. I don't know if I can link reddit posts, maybe not ( and I don't want to be censored), but it proves that they need to carefully think why they are losing players... Traditionally from a business standpoint raising profits and cutting costs are considered good things... Just throwing it out there...
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 303	Posted - 2016.08.03 14:57:02 - [887] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dracvlad wrote: .The same issue in terms of buffing ganking by increasing the EHP of the freighter wreck from 500 EHP to 15,000 EHP. I'm beginning to really appreciate this change. You're continually crying like a stuck pig because of it. That's quite entertaining. Of course you would appreciate the change, but my issue is really that it removed a fun bit of gameplay for the AG players where they could be aggressive and the gankers had to defend against ganking themselves, which of course was too much for them. So they ran off and cried about it. But what annoys me is that CCP not knowing what was going on in hisec just blundered into making the change without thinking it through, then when they realised they buffed freighter EHP to balance out against it. Personally I would like the two reversed. But when you hear the gankers go on about the buff to freighters and Jump Freighters when the DCU II got made passive, just bear in mind that this was done to balance out against the freighter wreck EHP bufff (but you will not of courese) and in fact does not balance out at all in terms of gameplay. What got me to actually point it out was the numerous times I saw gankers whining about nerfs and including this in their whine. So if a loser like you thinks it is entertaining that bothers me not. All I am interested in is showing the hypocrisy of gankers and their shrills, plus point out the balance issues around ganking of which this is one part. And there you go. The DCU change from an active to passive module has been requested for years. One of the problems in changing this module was that they didn't want the module to be mandatory to have on every ship. Active DCU's sometimes lost out in cap warfare, so there was a real choice not to use one over a passive module. However, if they were made passive and kept the more than double EHP boost... what non suicide ship wouldn't take one? The illusion of choice is not a choice, so the debate raged on for some time. Finally they decided what we have now. Give everyone a boost to hull resists, make the DCU passive, but have the module offer less in protection. In essence it offers about the same protection as before, but since all ships now have a better hull resist profile, there's now a real choice to use or not use the device. Then someone noticed how this might affect freighters and other indies. CCP decided to implement it anyway. CCP's spiel about buff/nerf balance was simple PR. However, the decision to change hull resists was not made in response to the wreck issue. It was made much earlier... months, if not years, in design process. The wrecks issue was spit out in a few weeks. There is no big conspiracy. --Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14377	Posted - 2016.08.03 16:24:24 - [888] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Where exactly is the evidence to say ganking is a problem? Where is the evidence that anti-EVE zealots need evidence to believe something?
Caleb Seremshur The Atomic Fallout Kids 830	Posted - 2016.08.03 16:57:07 - [889] - Quote baltec1 wrote: There is no arguing that we have lost a great deal of content from highsec over the last few years. I thought the definition of 'content' was stuff that CCP makes and inserts in to the game as activities or npcs or sites. That's their official stance anyway. What we as players do is play in the sandbox with the toys provided, nothing is true; everything is permitted. As for the rest of your post I don't feel strongly about it either way, if the 'secs had a graveyard for dead characters highsecs would be the largest by far. Highsec is where dignity goes to die, the toon going on ice shortly afterward.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5065	Posted - 2016.08.03 16:57:16 - [890] - Quote voetius wrote: @Teckos. There is one fatal flaw with the example statistic that people use about ganked players and player retention and that is that it can also be explained by "survivorship bias". From Wikipedia: Survivorship bias, or survival bias, is the logical error of concentrating on the people or things that "survived" some process and inadvertently overlooking those that did not because of their lack of visibility. This can lead to false conclusions in several different ways. This is not to say that CCP are incorrect, it would need more data to determine the answer either way. So your point may be valid or it may not, but the argument based on ganking and retention needs a it more work to be conclusive. Can you explain how this bias would work with the CCP analysis. I'm not seeing it. They are not looking at people who survived ganks. Nor were they looking at accounts where people stuck with the game. Is there some other dimension that you see survival on? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17792	Posted - 2016.08.03 17:15:31 - [891] - Quote Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dracvlad wrote: .The same issue in terms of buffing ganking by increasing the EHP of the freighter wreck from 500 EHP to 15,000 EHP. I'm beginning to really appreciate this change. You're continually crying like a stuck pig because of it. That's quite entertaining. Of course you would appreciate the change, but my issue is really that it removed a fun bit of gameplay for the AG players where they could be aggressive and the gankers had to defend against ganking themselves, which of course was too much for them. So they ran off and cried about it. But what annoys me is that CCP not knowing what was going on in hisec just blundered into making the change without thinking it through, then when they realised they buffed freighter EHP to balance out against it. Personally I would like the two reversed. But when you hear the gankers go on about the buff to freighters and Jump Freighters when the DCU II got made passive, just bear in mind that this was done to balance out against the freighter wreck EHP bufff (but you will not of courese) and in fact does not balance out at all in terms of gameplay. What got me to actually point it out was the numerous times I saw gankers whining about nerfs and including this in their whine. So if a loser like you thinks it is entertaining that bothers me not. All I am interested in is showing the hypocrisy of gankers and their shrills, plus point out the balance issues around ganking of which this is one part. And there you go. The DCU change from an active to passive module has been requested for years. One of the problems in changing this module was that they didn't want the module to be mandatory to have on every combat ship. Active DCU's sometimes lost out in cap warfare, so there was a real choice not to use one over a passive module. However, if they were made passive and kept the more than double EHP boost... what non suicide ship wouldn't take one? The illusion of choice is not a choice, so the debate raged on for some time. Finally they decided what we have now. Give everyone a boost to hull resists, make the DCU passive, but have the module offer less in protection. In essence it offers about the same protection as before, but since all ships now have a better hull resist profile, there's now a real choice to use or not use the device. Then someone noticed how this might affect freighters and other indies. CCP decided to implement it anyway. CCP's spiel about buff/nerf balance was simple PR. However, the decision to change hull resists was not made in response to the wreck issue. It was made much earlier... months, if not years, in design process. The wrecks issue was spit out in a few weeks. There is no big conspiracy. --Gadget It also failed in its primary goal, the mod is still a must have on everything that fitted them before. Not only that but the protection offered by it is slightly improved on the T2 and greatly improved with the faction variants. So in the end they are more must have than before and ships like the Anshar suddenly got the tank of another freighter dumped onto its already massive tank for no reason (it couldn't even fit a DCU). It was a terrible change and a prime example of why blanket buffs/nerfs are a terrible idea when it comes to ship balance.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17792	Posted - 2016.08.03 17:17:15 - [892] - Quote Caleb Seremshur wrote: I thought the definition of 'content' was stuff that CCP makes and inserts in to the game as activities or npcs or sites. That's their official stance anyway. What we as players do is play in the sandbox with the toys provided, nothing is true; everything is permitted. CCP add the tools, we make the content. When CCP nerfs/removes the tools then they also nerf the content that can be created.
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 84	Posted - 2016.08.03 17:27:36 - [893] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Caleb Seremshur wrote: I thought the definition of 'content' was stuff that CCP makes and inserts in to the game as activities or npcs or sites. That's their official stance anyway. What we as players do is play in the sandbox with the toys provided, nothing is true; everything is permitted. CCP add the tools, we make the content. When CCP nerfs/removes the tools then they also nerf the content that can be created. You create no content. You simply play your char as anyone else does.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5065	Posted - 2016.08.03 17:41:51 - [894] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: baltec1 wrote: Caleb Seremshur wrote: I thought the definition of 'content' was stuff that CCP makes and inserts in to the game as activities or npcs or sites. That's their official stance anyway. What we as players do is play in the sandbox with the toys provided, nothing is true; everything is permitted. CCP add the tools, we make the content. When CCP nerfs/removes the tools then they also nerf the content that can be created. You create no content. You simply play your char as anyone else does. I'm sorry, but this is wrong. Examples of player created content are NS wars. There was nothing from CCP that lead to the Max and Max 2.0 campaigns. There was nothing from CCP that lead to the IT Alliance taking Fountain and then moving on to Delve, Querious and Period Basis. These were things players decided to do and made the game interesting, exciting and fun. This is a game centered on players interacting with other players, that is where the bulk of the content comes from. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 306	Posted - 2016.08.03 17:51:19 - [895] - Quote baltec1 wrote: CCP add the tools, we make the content. When CCP changes the tools then they also change the content that can be created. FTFY --Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17792	Posted - 2016.08.03 17:52:00 - [896] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: You create no content. You simply play your char as anyone else does. Back in 2012 my corp shut down all caldari ice mining in highsec for a month, caused a huge spike in caldari ice prices and everything associated with it. We killed something like 600 barges and went through over 1000 gank ships. So in that month we provided content all across caldari space, for all miners in it, content for people trying to defend them, content for ship, ammo and mod producers, content for people playing the market and impacted people from the lowly miner in highsec to the titan pilot in null who ended up paying out the nose for their fuel. All from 30 people in a single corp. Just one man was responsible for the battle of Asakai, so yes we do infact make the content.
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 84	Posted - 2016.08.03 17:58:36 - [897] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: You create no content. You simply play your char as anyone else does. Back in 2012 my corp shut down all caldari ice mining in highsec for a month, caused a huge spike in caldari ice prices and everything associated with it. We killed something like 600 barges and went through over 1000 gank ships. So in that month we provided content all across caldari space, for all miners in it, content for people trying to defend them, content for ship, ammo and mod producers, content for people playing the market and impacted people from the lowly miner in highsec to the titan pilot in null who ended up paying out the nose for their fuel. All from 30 people in a single corp. Just one man was responsible for the battle of Asakai, so yes we do infact make the content. You simply played a game. Many things happens in any mmo around, you took note and now you say to others, nothing more nothing less...
Cien Banchiere Extrinsic Arcadia Distribution 95	Posted - 2016.08.03 17:59:57 - [898] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: You create no content. You simply play your char as anyone else does. Back in 2012 my corp shut down all caldari ice mining in highsec for a month, caused a huge spike in caldari ice prices and everything associated with it. We killed something like 600 barges and went through over 1000 gank ships. So in that month we provided content all across caldari space, for all miners in it, content for people trying to defend them, content for ship, ammo and mod producers, content for people playing the market and impacted people from the lowly miner in highsec to the titan pilot in null who ended up paying out the nose for their fuel. All from 30 people in a single corp. Just one man was responsible for the battle of Asakai, so yes we do infact make the content. Why don't I remember this? I lived in Caldari space that year. I remember GSF trying to own Gallente belts that year. I'm not saying you are lying I am just saying I don't remember this
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 84	Posted - 2016.08.03 18:02:36 - [899] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: baltec1 wrote: Caleb Seremshur wrote: I thought the definition of 'content' was stuff that CCP makes and inserts in to the game as activities or npcs or sites. That's their official stance anyway. What we as players do is play in the sandbox with the toys provided, nothing is true; everything is permitted. CCP add the tools, we make the content. When CCP nerfs/removes the tools then they also nerf the content that can be created. You create no content. You simply play your char as anyone else does. I'm sorry, but this is wrong. Examples of player created content are NS wars. There was nothing from CCP that lead to the Max and Max 2.0 campaigns. There was nothing from CCP that lead to the IT Alliance taking Fountain and then moving on to Delve, Querious and Period Basis. These were things players decided to do and made the game interesting, exciting and fun. This is a game centered on players interacting with other players, that is where the bulk of the content comes from. When I was playing WoW there were assault to other faction Capitals, big Pvp groups, zones that were places for battles and so on. When I was playing ultima online it was the same. The same here. Every game with players playing together has what you call content as something unique to Eve, it's not at all. It's players interacting, nothing else.
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 306	Posted - 2016.08.03 18:17:02 - [900] - Quote I would use RvB as an example of creating content. What they do is not something deliberately written in by CCP, but they did make the tools that make this content possible. And I call it Content because it's something bigger than just basic player interaction. RVB has structure, longevity, and can be joined by anyone that's willing to follow the structure. They took a kernel of an idea, - that in any other game would be considered content created by the devs - and using the existing rule set, created an EvE version of said content. They created a new way to play EvE that others can join in. That's content. --Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5066	Posted - 2016.08.03 18:24:01 - [901] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: baltec1 wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: You create no content. You simply play your char as anyone else does. Back in 2012 my corp shut down all caldari ice mining in highsec for a month, caused a huge spike in caldari ice prices and everything associated with it. We killed something like 600 barges and went through over 1000 gank ships. So in that month we provided content all across caldari space, for all miners in it, content for people trying to defend them, content for ship, ammo and mod producers, content for people playing the market and impacted people from the lowly miner in highsec to the titan pilot in null who ended up paying out the nose for their fuel. All from 30 people in a single corp. Just one man was responsible for the battle of Asakai, so yes we do infact make the content. You simply played a game. Many things happens in any mmo around, you took note and now you say to others, nothing more nothing less... Yes, played a game and made content for others. When one person makes a mistake it provides an opportunity for others in the game to take advantage of it. I went on lots of fleets and got lots of killmails because of all the nonsense between the Imperium and IWantIsk. Their pissing match provided things for me to do when I logged in. Heck, I even logged in more frequently. Players create content in Eve. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 551	Posted - 2016.08.03 18:25:09 - [902] - Quote baltec1 wrote: It also failed in its primary goal, the mod is still a must have on everything that fitted them before. Not only that but the protection offered by it is slightly improved on the T2 and greatly improved with the faction variants. So in the end they are more must have than before and ships like the Anshar suddenly got the tank of another freighter dumped onto its already massive tank for no reason (it couldn't even fit a DCU). It was a terrible change and a prime example of why blanket buffs/nerfs are a terrible idea when it comes to ship balance. I for one changed my fitting habits when that DCU change hit. But on topic of freighters (because we really can't seem to talk about anything else these days), the EHP is still lower than an Orca and considerably lower than a capital ship. Yet it IS a capital ship. Both you and Drac sure cry a lot so I'm thinking everything is fine in EvE. "back in the good old days my 2 mil destroyer could elite PvP a 260 mil exhumer in under 20 sec" -- surely you have to realise how entitled that sounds? Oh gosh, darn, look at all these nerfs! We need an additional alt to keep an unconsequential point on a capital ship. And they improved the tank on said capital ship to double that of a battleship to boot, yipes! People are even complaining about us exploitlooting without suspect flag. Does nobody think of us poor gankers? We barely turn a profit anymore even though we can still afford to shoot empty triple bulkhead freighters for lulz. I smell entitlement boys. All this has been studies extensively, corrective measures were taken. You cannot adjust balance between two opposing sides without affecting the gameplay for either one. What happened to "adapt or die"? Bears have adapted: they fit their bulkheads, most don't AFK, they'll fly tank over yield... this is what you wanted, no? You can now reap the rewards of your efforts by stripmining highsec in high-yield Hulks, and blowing up the competition when they dare to swap their skiffs and procurers back to macks. By forcing everyone to fly triple bulkhead freighters, you could turn a tidy profit by hauling more cargo faster in expanded hold fit warp speed accelerated freighters. ... or you can just keep harping on about how everyone flies tanky barges nowadays.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 385	Posted - 2016.08.03 18:30:47 - [903] - Quote TBH I think they should just give freighters slots like every other ship. Even the Bowhead has slots - and it is a freighter. Would also finally allow all of the races of freighters to use their racial bonuses - instead of only the gallente. Only big balance problem of course is the ****ing amarr and their slave implants + armor....But welcome to EVE? give them less cargo space to counter it, and enough low-slots to get the cargo back if they nerf their armor. Not going to propose it as an actual change though - because I know nobody would go for that one
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5066	Posted - 2016.08.03 18:32:26 - [904] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: When I was playing WoW there were assault to other faction Capitals, big Pvp groups, zones that were places for battles and so on. When I was playing ultima online it was the same. The same here. Every game with players playing together has what you call content as something unique to Eve, it's not at all. It's players interacting, nothing else. The wars are not a CCP provided mechanic as in WoW. They just happen and can take on a variety of forms and it is not just a temporary bit of destruction that once done nobody notices. In EVE it can be permanent. Have you looked at the sov map at all? They change, in fact there is a video on youtube of Verite's sov map over time which is very interesting to watch. Players make all sorts of agreements that you never see in a game like WoW. OTEC, B0tlord, etc. Alliances between coalitions ebb and flow over time. Does CODE. make content for me? Probably. I do invention and I have no idea how many, if any, of all the light neutron blaster IIs my invention alts have produced have ended up on a CODE. catalyst. And even if none of them did, the fact that those CODE. catalysts end up getting killed by CONCORD means it effects the market....which effects my invention business. And by the same token my invention activity effects CODE. and even those they gank. By adding to the market I help ensure that the market for light neutron blaster IIs is thick--i.e. there are lots of them for CODE. and others to buy. Just because you are unaware of these things and do not want to learn about them does not mean they do not exist. So yeah, players are the primary content generators in this game. And yeah, I simply play a game...and help generate content. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7866	Posted - 2016.08.03 18:47:37 - [905] - Quote Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: I would use RvB as an example of creating content. What they do is not something deliberately written in by CCP, but they did make the tools that make this content possible. And I call it Content because it's something bigger than just basic player interaction. RVB has structure, longevity, and can be joined by anyone that's willing to follow the structure. They took a kernel of an idea, - that in any other game would be considered content created by the devs - and using the existing rule set, created an EvE version of said content. They created a new way to play EvE that others can join in. That's content. --Gadget RvB was a kill-harvesting scam. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Rek Seven Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 2257	Posted - 2016.08.03 19:13:50 - [906] - Quote It's strange how eve player think they create content by simply playing the game. Maybe it's just a lack of vocabulary... Players creat actions, activities or opportunities but not content. The only people who greate content in EVE are the developers. For me it is important to make the distinction because I have just cancelled my subscription and was asked to give a reason why - I selected "lack of content". This is not me saying there are not enough players doing things in game, it is me saying "I am bored with what CCP has put in the game". The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 306	Posted - 2016.08.03 19:18:35 - [907] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: RvB was a kill-harvesting scam. For what, Facebook likes? --Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
KaarBaak Squirrel Team 390	Posted - 2016.08.03 19:22:29 - [908] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: It's strange how eve player think they create content by simply playing the game. Maybe it's just a lack of vocabulary... Players creat actions, activities or opportunities but not content. The only people who greate content in EVE are the developers. For me it is important to make the distinction because I have just cancelled my subscription and was asked to give a reason why - I selected "lack of content". This is not me saying there are not enough players doing things in game, it is me saying "I am bored with what CCP has put in the game". That's a very narrow definition of "content" that you follow. In my mind, that's like discontinuing your subscription to a newspaper because the news isn't interesting. KB Dum Spiro Spero
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 386	Posted - 2016.08.03 19:22:45 - [909] - Quote Anyone else starting to feel like the word "content" is losing all meaning or relation to reality just because of how often both sides of this argument like to throw it around these days?
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17795	Posted - 2016.08.03 19:25:20 - [910] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Both you and Drac sure cry a lot so I'm thinking everything is fine in EvE. "back in the good old days my 2 mil destroyer could elite PvP a 260 mil exhumer in under 20 sec" -- surely you have to realise how entitled that sounds? That same catalyst will solo any 250 mil t2 or t3 cruiser. The one and only reason it worked was because miners fitted no tank at all.
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 552	Posted - 2016.08.03 19:31:30 - [911] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Both you and Drac sure cry a lot so I'm thinking everything is fine in EvE. "back in the good old days my 2 mil destroyer could elite PvP a 260 mil exhumer in under 20 sec" -- surely you have to realise how entitled that sounds? That same catalyst will solo any 250 mil t2 or t3 cruiser. The one and only reason it worked was because miners fitted no tank at all. LOL? Solo a recon, a HAC or even a T3 cruiser in a catalyst?? Dude. Please. You can't even solo a Rupture with it. Now scoot.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17795	Posted - 2016.08.03 19:32:09 - [912] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: LOL? Solo a recon, a HAC or even a T3 cruiser in a catalyst?? Dude. Please. You can't even solo a Rupture with it. Now scoot. Fit them like miners fitted their ships and you will.
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 552	Posted - 2016.08.03 19:38:17 - [913] - Quote Ahaaaa LOL yea that may be true. Back then. If they still do so today, by all means blow 'em up Sir!
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5066	Posted - 2016.08.03 19:41:15 - [914] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: Players creat actions, activities or opportunities but not content. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5066	Posted - 2016.08.03 19:42:14 - [915] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Ahaaaa LOL yea that may be true. Back then. If they still do so today, by all means blow 'em up Sir! There are lots of miners fitting no tank nor paying attention. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 307	Posted - 2016.08.03 19:42:48 - [916] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Anyone else starting to feel like the word "content" is losing all meaning or relation to reality just because of how often both sides of this argument like to throw it around these days? Actually, I don't think it's losing its meaning. We all assign a different meaning to what "content" is. We might need to decide what content officially is for EvE, or at least come to some agreement. CCP, CSM... make it happen --Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17796	Posted - 2016.08.03 19:49:07 - [917] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Ahaaaa LOL yea that may be true. Back then. If they still do so today, by all means blow 'em up Sir! Thats the funny thing. If you slap t2 mods onto just about any sub battleship hull, no tank mods and slip in a few cargo expanders then you will turn a profit killing them. Barges are the exception to the rule.
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 552	Posted - 2016.08.03 19:49:36 - [918] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Ahaaaa LOL yea that may be true. Back then. If they still do so today, by all means blow 'em up Sir! There are lots of miners fitting no tank nor paying attention. Then shoot them. With my blessings- godspeed! Working as intended, that. This, however, is taking us away from the "CCP is fitting their ships for them" complaint or the "but they keep nerfing my playstyle". Are you telling me the targets are still there and therefore that playstyle is still valid? Then we are in agreement. Nothing to see here, move along.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17796	Posted - 2016.08.03 19:54:33 - [919] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Then shoot them. With my blessings- godspeed! Working as intended, that. This, however, is taking us away from the "CCP is fitting their ships for them" complaint or the "but they keep nerfing my playstyle". Are you telling me the targets are still there and therefore that playstyle is still valid? Then we are in agreement. Nothing to see here, move along. Even unfitted with zero skills the skiff gets 1.6k less EHP than a Scorpion and it will hit just a little less yield than the hulk can.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 386	Posted - 2016.08.03 19:56:35 - [920] - Quote Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Anyone else starting to feel like the word "content" is losing all meaning or relation to reality just because of how often both sides of this argument like to throw it around these days? Actually, I don't think it's losing its meaning. We all assign a different meaning to what "content" is. We might need to decide what content officially is for EvE, or at least come to some agreement. CCP, CSM... make it happen --Gadget Well, I mean....as a word it has meaning... But I'm not sure anybody throwing it around here really knows the meaning... On the one hand - obviously everything in the game is the literal content of the game - and this naturally includes everything done by every player at any time....So it is ridiculous to state that things players do don't "create content".... But on the other hand....everything that every player does is the literal content of the game... That doesn't make it good content or meaningful content. I mean **** the afk miners chewing their asteroids are still "creating content" in a very literal sense...it is just dull, boring, meaningless content... So acting like you are some special snowflake by "creating content" in whatever unique way you do so is equally ridiculous... It is just a word... A very broad, generic word... It doesn't have the deep meaning that people seem to assign to it... And over-use is generally bad for any word in this context. People try to replace the actual meaning of the word with their perceived/desired deeper/alternate meaning... And it makes it hard for people not intimately familiar with the ongoing discussion to understand what they are saying (and that is before you even consider that many of the people don't even use English as their primary language)...
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 552	Posted - 2016.08.03 19:57:00 - [921] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Ahaaaa LOL yea that may be true. Back then. If they still do so today, by all means blow 'em up Sir! Thats the funny thing. If you slap t2 mods onto just about any sub battleship hull, no tank mods and slip in a few cargo expanders then you will turn a profit killing them. Barges are the exception to the rule. How do you figure? I take a Hurricane and fit it with 220mm vulcans, scram/web and a 50Mn AB. Damage control, gyrostab, tracking enhancer, the rest in cargo expanders. Provided you manage to blow me up (which you won't by the way), and half of that drops. You then have 3 cannons, a web and a gyrostab. This is profit to you? (yes, I took a hurricane for example, as barges are twice as expensive as cruisers. So I took the least tanky higher-up. The case for a Brutix is even more ridiculous and you won't kill that one either by the way.) I'm trying but I feel like we keep going off on tangents. It's almost like I hear your words but I don't hear what you're saying. Think I'll leave you guys discuss away although I don't understand what any of this has to do with "Every year there are less users playing". I'll stop contradicting you at every turn and just yet you have your say- true or not, is up to everyone is his own right to decide.
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 307	Posted - 2016.08.03 19:58:33 - [922] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Well, I mean....as a word it has meaning... But I'm not sure anybody throwing it around here really knows the meaning... On the one hand - obviously everything in the game is the literal content of the game - and this naturally includes everything done by every player at any time....So it is ridiculous to state that things players do don't "create content".... But on the other hand....everything that every player does is the literal content of the game... That doesn't make it good content or meaningful content. I mean **** the afk miners chewing their asteroids are still "creating content" in a very literal sense...it is just dull, boring, meaningless content... So acting like you are some special snowflake by "creating content" in whatever unique way you do so is equally ridiculous... It is just a word... A very broad, generic word... It doesn't have the deep meaning that people seem to assign to it... And over-use is generally bad for any word in this context. People try to replace the actual meaning of the word with their perceived/desired deeper/alternate meaning... And it makes it hard for people not intimately familiar with the ongoing discussion to understand what they are saying (and that is before you even consider that many of the people don't even use English as their primary language)... Nah. "Content" is now game jargon. We just need to define this piece of jargon for EvE. Y'know, like bubbles in EvE have nothing to do with bubblegum. --Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
Galaxy Chicken Free Highsec Industrialists 66	Posted - 2016.08.03 20:03:17 - [923] - Quote I checked in on this thread when it was only a few pages long and was disappointed that it had not yet descended into "gankers are killing EVE!!1 abloo, abloo bloo" I'm glad to see that this thread has matured.
Rek Seven Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 2257	Posted - 2016.08.03 20:05:12 - [924] - Quote KaarBaak wrote: Rek Seven wrote: It's strange how eve player think they create content by simply playing the game. Maybe it's just a lack of vocabulary... Players creat actions, activities or opportunities but not content. The only people who greate content in EVE are the developers. For me it is important to make the distinction because I have just cancelled my subscription and was asked to give a reason why - I selected "lack of content". This is not me saying there are not enough players doing things in game, it is me saying "I am bored with what CCP has put in the game". That's a very narrow definition of "content" that you follow. In my mind, that's like discontinuing your subscription to a newspaper because the news isn't interesting. KB Not really, it's just being specific and sticking with what the gaming industry has considers what game content is, for several years now. DLC (downloadable content) and content expansions are stuff the developers add to the game. Players simply use/interact with that content, they are not content creators. The closest thing to content creation in Eve is the development of third party apps. The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 307	Posted - 2016.08.03 20:07:24 - [925] - Quote Galaxy Chicken wrote: I checked in on this thread when it was only a few pages long and was disappointed that it had not yet descended into "gankers are killing EVE!!1 abloo, abloo bloo" I'm glad to see that this thread has matured. Try about page 20 or so. It's gone there... and past. --Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17796	Posted - 2016.08.03 20:21:38 - [926] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: How do you figure? I take a Hurricane and fit it with 220mm vulcans, scram/web and a 50Mn AB. Damage control, gyrostab, tracking enhancer, the rest in cargo expanders. Using 2x cheap catalysts off the top of my head should net 2-3 mil potential profit. Star of the show however is the gank nado, 60 mil in potential drops and it requires roughly 6.7k damage to kill it.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2087	Posted - 2016.08.03 20:22:32 - [927] - Quote Galaxy Chicken wrote: I checked in on this thread when it was only a few pages long and was disappointed that it had not yet descended into "gankers are killing EVE!!1 abloo, abloo bloo" I'm glad to see that this thread has matured. Actually its not what I was saying mate, I was talking about he lack of balance with gankers making it so casual hisec get fed up and leave the game. There will still be people like you running around. Will be interesting to see just how the "content" develops when it is only players like you. Will be damn funny to watch actually... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5066	Posted - 2016.08.03 20:22:52 - [928] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Ahaaaa LOL yea that may be true. Back then. If they still do so today, by all means blow 'em up Sir! There are lots of miners fitting no tank nor paying attention. Then shoot them. With my blessings- godspeed! Working as intended, that. This, however, is taking us away from the "CCP is fitting their ships for them" complaint or the "but they keep nerfing my playstyle". Are you telling me the targets are still there and therefore that playstyle is still valid? Then we are in agreement. Nothing to see here, move along. It is very hard to make a profit ganking miners who fit their ships badly. CCP has basically buffed mining. Mining ships still get ganked, but more for laughs or to get entrance to a ganking group. Edit: T2 mining ships that is. Not sure about retrievers. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2088	Posted - 2016.08.03 20:27:00 - [929] - Quote The silly thing is that CCP said it was not their intent that people who ganked would make a profit from ganking any T2 fit ship and it would be only if they wanted to kill someone for reasons. The profit has to come from cargo and from bling fitting. That is their decision on game balance, and something they have got right. Well done CCP... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17797	Posted - 2016.08.03 20:29:19 - [930] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Edit: T2 mining ships that is. Not sure about retrievers. Its a ship best avoided, fitting room is basically nothing, 3 lows, one mid and two highs gives you zero options in fitting it. As I said, CCP have already fitted it for you.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17797	Posted - 2016.08.03 20:30:58 - [931] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: The silly thing is that CCP said it was not their intent that people who ganked would make a profit from ganking any T2 fit ship and it would be only if they wanted to kill someone for reasons. The profit has to come from cargo and from bling fitting. That is their decision on game balance, and something they have got right. Well done CCP... CCP said people ganking a t2 hull with nothing fitted should not be profitable. Almost all subcaps lower than a battleship are profitable to gank if you fit t2 mods and no tank.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5066	Posted - 2016.08.03 20:33:37 - [932] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: Not really, it's just being specific and sticking with what the gaming industry has considered game content to be for several years now. Sure. We can break it down, IMO, as content provided by CCP--e.g. missions. Then there is content the players provide such as a fight between two or more players. What players do provide different levels of content for others. Quote: DLC (downloadable content) and content expansions are stuff the developers add to the game. Players simply use/interact with that content, they are not content creators. The closest thing to content creation in Eve is the development of third party apps. By this narrow definition the bulk of the Eve patches have very little content. CCP has not seeded a single citadel for example. When a "new ship is added to the game" it is not added by CCP, not literally. The blueprint is, or a process to get a blueprint copy, but it takes a player to actually introduce these new ships. So yes, you have a limited view of "content". If you are looking for "content" from CCP yes you'll be disappointed and leave. But then again this was never the game for you. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2088	Posted - 2016.08.03 20:40:12 - [933] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: The silly thing is that CCP said it was not their intent that people who ganked would make a profit from ganking any T2 fit ship and it would be only if they wanted to kill someone for reasons. The profit has to come from cargo and from bling fitting. That is their decision on game balance, and something they have got right. Well done CCP... CCP said people ganking a t2 hull with nothing fitted should not be profitable. Almost all subcaps lower than a battleship are profitable to gank if you fit t2 mods and no tank. You are like a stuck needle on a gramophone record.... Well one of my corp mates got ganked in a T2 fitted T3D and it had no tank as it was a kiting ship and they did not make a profit out of that. Working as intended... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 707	Posted - 2016.08.03 20:42:00 - [934] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dracvlad wrote: .The same issue in terms of buffing ganking by increasing the EHP of the freighter wreck from 500 EHP to 15,000 EHP. I'm beginning to really appreciate this change. You're continually crying like a stuck pig because of it. That's quite entertaining. Of course you would appreciate the change, but my issue is really that it removed a fun bit of gameplay for the AG players where they could be aggressive and the gankers had to defend against ganking themselves, which of course was too much for them. So they ran off and cried about it. But what annoys me is that CCP not knowing what was going on in hisec just blundered into making the change without thinking it through, then when they realised they buffed freighter EHP to balance out against it. Personally I would like the two reversed. But when you hear the gankers go on about the buff to freighters and Jump Freighters when the DCU II got made passive, just bear in mind that this was done to balance out against the freighter wreck EHP bufff (but you will not of courese) and in fact does not balance out at all in terms of gameplay. What got me to actually point it out was the numerous times I saw gankers whining about nerfs and including this in their whine. So if a loser like you thinks it is entertaining that bothers me not. All I am interested in is showing the hypocrisy of gankers and their shrills, plus point out the balance issues around ganking of which this is one part. And there you go. Oink. Oink.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2088	Posted - 2016.08.03 20:43:25 - [935] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dracvlad wrote: .The same issue in terms of buffing ganking by increasing the EHP of the freighter wreck from 500 EHP to 15,000 EHP. I'm beginning to really appreciate this change. You're continually crying like a stuck pig because of it. That's quite entertaining. Of course you would appreciate the change, but my issue is really that it removed a fun bit of gameplay for the AG players where they could be aggressive and the gankers had to defend against ganking themselves, which of course was too much for them. So they ran off and cried about it. But what annoys me is that CCP not knowing what was going on in hisec just blundered into making the change without thinking it through, then when they realised they buffed freighter EHP to balance out against it. Personally I would like the two reversed. But when you hear the gankers go on about the buff to freighters and Jump Freighters when the DCU II got made passive, just bear in mind that this was done to balance out against the freighter wreck EHP bufff (but you will not of courese) and in fact does not balance out at all in terms of gameplay. What got me to actually point it out was the numerous times I saw gankers whining about nerfs and including this in their whine. So if a loser like you thinks it is entertaining that bothers me not. All I am interested in is showing the hypocrisy of gankers and their shrills, plus point out the balance issues around ganking of which this is one part. And there you go. Oink. Oink. That is not a squeal When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Galaxy Chicken Free Highsec Industrialists 68	Posted - 2016.08.03 20:43:30 - [936] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Galaxy Chicken wrote: I checked in on this thread when it was only a few pages long and was disappointed that it had not yet descended into "gankers are killing EVE!!1 abloo, abloo bloo" I'm glad to see that this thread has matured. Actually its not what I was saying mate, I was talking about he lack of balance with gankers making it so casual hisec get fed up and leave the game. Casual highsec players like myself?
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17797	Posted - 2016.08.03 20:43:37 - [937] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: The silly thing is that CCP said it was not their intent that people who ganked would make a profit from ganking any T2 fit ship and it would be only if they wanted to kill someone for reasons. The profit has to come from cargo and from bling fitting. That is their decision on game balance, and something they have got right. Well done CCP... CCP said people ganking a t2 hull with nothing fitted should not be profitable. Almost all subcaps lower than a battleship are profitable to gank if you fit t2 mods and no tank. You are like a stuck needle on a gramophone record.... Well one of my corp mates got ganked in a T2 fitted T3D and it had no tank as it was a kiting ship and they did not make a profit out of that. Working as intended... Lets see that KM.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 387	Posted - 2016.08.03 20:48:35 - [938] - Quote Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: Nah. "Content" is now game jargon. We just need to define this piece of jargon for EvE. Y'know, like bubbles in EvE have nothing to do with bubblegum. --Gadget To be fair - bubbles are still literal visible bubbles - even if they aren't made of gum But yeah, OK, it is EVE jargon....but I wish they would hurry up and agree on a defined meaning Then again...asking these 2 groups to agree on anything is probably a lost cause I don't think they could agree on the proper way to fit a shuttle...
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5067	Posted - 2016.08.03 20:59:36 - [939] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: Nah. "Content" is now game jargon. We just need to define this piece of jargon for EvE. Y'know, like bubbles in EvE have nothing to do with bubblegum. --Gadget To be fair - bubbles are still literal visible bubbles - even if they aren't made of gum But yeah, OK, it is EVE jargon....but I wish they would hurry up and agree on a defined meaning Then again...asking these 2 groups to agree on anything is probably a lost cause I don't think they could agree on the proper way to fit a shuttle... Content in this discussion is something entertaining. A dvd with a movie on it has content. Might be good content (you enjoy the movie) or it might be bad (you hated the movie). When you were a kid and went outside and met up with friends and did stuff you had content--i.e. you figured out something fun to do. In Eve it is the same way....hence the term sandbox. So Rek is complaining that CCP hasn't handed him content on a platter, but that was never how CCP intended Eve to be, IMO. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 555	Posted - 2016.08.03 21:15:24 - [940] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Then again...asking these 2 groups to agree on anything is probably a lost cause I don't think they could agree on the proper way to fit a shuttle... I'm beginning to see that. There's one guy saying "they turn outrageous profits", there's another saying "but it's actually more expensive than you think because :opportunity cost: so in fact we're getting poorer by the minute from all this negative profit. And then there is lolsmurf running the math on a DPS vs tank basis without taking into account they'd in fact vapourize as soon as I get a target lock. Say ... 8 seconds boys? This of course taking into account a 65 mil tornado can drop 60 mil in loot so in how far that math is viable .... bob only knows. Think I'm ready for that shuttle now. I'll take mine nullified and cloaky please. Jumpdrive if you still have those in stock.
Bumblefck Kerensky Initiatives 12733	Posted - 2016.08.03 21:27:42 - [941] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Lets see that KM. As expected crickets Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi . Bumble's Space Log
Paranoid Loyd 9345	Posted - 2016.08.03 21:35:58 - [942] - Quote Bumblefck wrote: baltec1 wrote: Lets see that KM. As expected crickets I found it, 30 mil dropped to three 2mil isk Thrashers. Hmmmm, I'm not all that good at math but this certainly looks profitable. Mr Pot Calling the Kettle Black, would you care to respond? Fix the Prospect! New Server Hardware!
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17799	Posted - 2016.08.03 21:40:27 - [943] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: This of course taking into account a 65 mil tornado can drop 60 mil in loot so in how far that math is viable .... bob only knows.. Fittings for a gank nado stands at 60 mil, total cost for the ship and fittings is roughly 135 million. Three T1 catalysts will kill it so you are spending 7 million to gank a tornado for potential profit of 60 million.
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 555	Posted - 2016.08.03 22:33:03 - [944] - Quote Paranoid Loyd wrote: That's because you don't argue with facts and he does. He keeps saying the same thing over and over again because he is right and you are not only wrong but a liar. baltec1 wrote: Fittings for a gank nado stands at 60 mil, total cost for the ship and fittings is roughly 135 million. Three T1 catalysts will kill it so you are spending 7 million to gank a tornado for potential profit of 60 million. How about any of the figures he posts actually make sense? Exhibit A Exhibit B Exhibit C Exhibit D Exhibit E Exhibit F Exhibit G This from ZKill's frontpage. It's between 6-14 mil. If half of that drops you're looking at 3-7 mil in loot. We've had this conversation before: he'll say "it's 12 mil for a Thrasher", I quickly look 'em up on ZKill and what does my leery eye spot? 2.06 mil, of course. That's off by a rather large margin. It does not inspire confidence in any argument he might have -- and by now I don't even know what point he's trying to prove anymore. I'm just debunking false figures for those who might take them at face value and work from there. Whenever numbers get posted and arguments spun on top of those: do take the time to VERIFY THEM people. Seriously.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 390	Posted - 2016.08.03 22:44:12 - [945] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Paranoid Loyd wrote: That's because you don't argue with facts and he does. He keeps saying the same thing over and over again because he is right and you are not only wrong but a liar. baltec1 wrote: Fittings for a gank nado stands at 60 mil, total cost for the ship and fittings is roughly 135 million. Three T1 catalysts will kill it so you are spending 7 million to gank a tornado for potential profit of 60 million. How about any of the figures he posts actually make sense? Exhibit A Exhibit B Exhibit C Exhibit D Exhibit E Exhibit F Exhibit G This from ZKill's frontpage. It's between 6-14 mil. If half of that drops you're looking at 3-7 mil in loot. We've had this conversation before: he'll say "it's 12 mil for a Thrasher", I quickly look 'em up on ZKill and what does my leery eye spot? 2.06 mil, of course. That's off by a rather large margin. It does not inspire confidence in any argument he might have -- and by now I don't even know what point he's trying to prove anymore. I'm just debunking false figures for those who might take them at face value and work from there. Whenever numbers get posted and arguments spun on top of those: do take the time to VERIFY THEM people. Seriously. The fully T2 fit thrasher can get up to 12m if you buy it in a hurry instead of shopping around But when calculating the cost/profit you of course have to consider that the looting alt doesn't even need a suspect flag to loot everything that drops from the ganking ship - so they can, on average, count on getting half of it back. On average people who gank mining ships at least break even nearly every time - and often make a small profit. They can also make a rather good profit when they get lucky - it may not be a 20b freighter, but there is some serious loot on some of those afk miners in high sec. And you can still kill them with a single ~10m isk t2 fit catalyst... Gankers just like to moan and complain almost as much as the anti-gankers do. Both sides want to be the victim.
Paranoid Loyd 9349	Posted - 2016.08.03 23:35:20 - [946] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Cherry picked exhibits If you're going to call his numbers out as bad don't ignore all the profitable nados on the same page. On the first page of losses in highsec there are 10+ profitable nados and potentially 10 more if you get lucky on the drops. Fix the Prospect! New Server Hardware!
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 391	Posted - 2016.08.03 23:41:15 - [947] - Quote Paranoid Loyd wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Cherry picked exhibits If you're going to call his numbers out as bad don't ignore all the profitable nados on the same page. On the first page of losses in highsec there are 10+ profitable nados and potentially 10 more if you get lucky on the drops. And yet...oddly enough...Not a single one of them was ganked... In fact, some of them are gasp Suicide Gankers! And...that awesome drop? That is a REFUND for them.. Yeah..boo hoo hoo, getting all that money back, those poor poor babies. We should coddle them and comfort them. I'm sure they are finding it very difficult to go on with their miserable, wretched, horribly difficult lives...
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 557	Posted - 2016.08.03 23:41:53 - [948] - Quote If ganking is your business and profit is important, I expect you to come up with the most cost-effective ship. Plus, a tier III battlecruiser is the worst possible example. BUT please allow me to approach the situation from a different angle: IF it were so profitable, then why doesn't every destroyer I meet during my travels shoot at me? Why focus on those ships who are allegedly the least profitable of all? Could it be that perhaps the argument that everything below battleship size is profitable to gank is false? Could it be that perhaps your puny destroyer would simply blow up to the combined DPS of gateguns and whatever my ship is dishing out? "cherrypicked". LOL. I'm not picky-- please please do try.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5069	Posted - 2016.08.03 23:51:44 - [949] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Paranoid Loyd wrote: That's because you don't argue with facts and he does. He keeps saying the same thing over and over again because he is right and you are not only wrong but a liar. baltec1 wrote: Fittings for a gank nado stands at 60 mil, total cost for the ship and fittings is roughly 135 million. Three T1 catalysts will kill it so you are spending 7 million to gank a tornado for potential profit of 60 million. How about any of the figures he posts actually make sense? Exhibit A Exhibit B Exhibit C Exhibit D Exhibit E Exhibit F Exhibit G This from ZKill's frontpage. It's between 6-14 mil. If half of that drops you're looking at 3-7 mil in loot. We've had this conversation before: he'll say "it's 12 mil for a Thrasher", I quickly look 'em up on ZKill and what does my leery eye spot? 2.06 mil, of course. That's off by a rather large margin. It does not inspire confidence in any argument he might have -- and by now I don't even know what point he's trying to prove anymore. I'm just debunking false figures for those who might take them at face value and work from there. Whenever numbers get posted and arguments spun on top of those: do take the time to VERIFY THEM people. Seriously. Find some KMs with T2 guns. There you go. https://zkillboard.com/kill/55404164/ Big difference in price. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Paranoid Loyd 9350	Posted - 2016.08.03 23:52:50 - [950] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: If ganking is your business and profit is important, I expect you to come up with the most cost-effective ship. Plus, a tier III battlecruiser is the worst possible example. BUT please allow me to approach the situation from a different angle: IF it were so profitable, then why doesn't every destroyer I meet during my travels shoot at me? Why focus on those ships who are allegedly the least profitable of all? Could it be that perhaps the argument that everything below battleship size is profitable to gank is false? Could it be that perhaps your puny destroyer would simply blow up to the combined DPS of gateguns and whatever my ship is dishing out? "cherrypicked". LOL. I'm not picky-- please please do try. And now we move the goal posts. Seriously man I know you are more intelligent than this, you are just arguing to argue at this point. Fix the Prospect! New Server Hardware!
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5069	Posted - 2016.08.03 23:56:33 - [951] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: If ganking is your business and profit is important, I expect you to come up with the most cost-effective ship. Plus, a tier III battlecruiser is the worst possible example. BUT please allow me to approach the situation from a different angle: IF it were so profitable, then why doesn't every destroyer I meet during my travels shoot at me? Why focus on those ships who are allegedly the least profitable of all? Could it be that perhaps the argument that everything below battleship size is profitable to gank is false? Could it be that perhaps your puny destroyer would simply blow up to the combined DPS of gateguns and whatever my ship is dishing out? "cherrypicked". LOL. I'm not picky-- please please do try. Yes, meta guns might work fine, but baltec1's point was about ganking a t2 fit tier 3 BC. Your examples do not contradict him because they do not apply. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Paranoid Loyd 9350	Posted - 2016.08.04 00:03:21 - [952] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Paranoid Loyd wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Cherry picked exhibits If you're going to call his numbers out as bad don't ignore all the profitable nados on the same page. On the first page of losses in highsec there are 10+ profitable nados and potentially 10 more if you get lucky on the drops. And yet...oddly enough...Not a single one of them was ganked... In fact, some of them are gasp Suicide Gankers! And...that awesome drop? That is a REFUND for them.. Yeah..boo hoo hoo, getting all that money back, those poor poor babies. We should coddle them and comfort them. I'm sure they are finding it very difficult to go on with their miserable, wretched, horribly difficult lives... edit: And yes, I'm both referring 100% to their in-game lives (I know some of you were going there), and being overly dramatic here - but come on...Stop trying to play the victims. Gankers have it pretty ***ing good - and while what they do is certainly hard and takes setup and (arguably) skill - they are fortunate to be in one of the very few professions in EVE where they are in fact able to very nearly 100% manage their risks* and their costs - as well as even their profit margins... I know the anti-gankers rant a lot...but seriously stop it with the "oh woe is us" routine - nobody feels sorry for you either.... I'm not sure why you perceive me as trying to say gankers are victims. I am simply posting what is true and what is not. Drac said the ship that was ganked was not profitable, it was. Then Brokk cherry picked a bunch of unprofitable nados while an almost equal amount of profitable ships are sitting on the same list. Yes I am a ganker, no I am not taking sides, I am pointing out disingenuous posting. Fix the Prospect! New Server Hardware!
Galaxy Chicken Free Highsec Industrialists 69	Posted - 2016.08.04 00:05:06 - [953] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Paranoid Loyd wrote: That's because you don't argue with facts and he does. He keeps saying the same thing over and over again because he is right and you are not only wrong but a liar. baltec1 wrote: Fittings for a gank nado stands at 60 mil, total cost for the ship and fittings is roughly 135 million. Three T1 catalysts will kill it so you are spending 7 million to gank a tornado for potential profit of 60 million. How about any of the figures he posts actually make sense? Exhibit A Exhibit B Exhibit C Exhibit D Exhibit E Exhibit F Exhibit G This from ZKill's frontpage. It's between 6-14 mil. If half of that drops you're looking at 3-7 mil in loot. We've had this conversation before: he'll say "it's 12 mil for a Thrasher", I quickly look 'em up on ZKill and what does my leery eye spot? 2.06 mil, of course. That's off by a rather large margin. It does not inspire confidence in any argument he might have -- and by now I don't even know what point he's trying to prove anymore. I'm just debunking false figures for those who might take them at face value and work from there. Whenever numbers get posted and arguments spun on top of those: do take the time to VERIFY THEM people. Seriously. The fully T2 fit thrasher can get up to 12m if you buy it in a hurry instead of shopping around But when calculating the cost/profit you of course have to consider that the looting alt doesn't even need a suspect flag to loot everything that drops from the ganking ship - so they can, on average, count on getting half of it back. On average people who gank mining ships at least break even nearly every time - and often make a small profit.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 392	Posted - 2016.08.04 00:13:07 - [954] - Quote @Teckos: I thought you didn't approve of idiocy? And yet here you are applauding people who have supposedly done the math and determined that they could be getting (by their own numbers) 50 million isk in pure profit ganking the hordes of idiots in literally any t2 fit ship other than a mining ship....Yet they are so stupid they choose to gank the only idiots in EVE whom they actually lose money ganking...Rather than leaving them to the bumpers (who don't have to spend a single isk on the endeavor - but still prevent them from mining)... Why is this particular brand of idiocy Teckos approved? @ Loyd: The entire conversation came up because baltec was whining (once again) about how unprofitable ganking mining barges is, and how it is unbalanced compared to any other t2 fit ship. This was a clear attempt to gather pity and, presumably, to convince CCP that they should take pity on the gankers and nerf mining barge hp... Otherwise it would seem to be utterly random and I don't know why you would even be talking about it - let alone defending it so adamantly. @ Chicken: I don't know what you are typing yet... But it is a pain when the forums eat your post, isn't it
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 392	Posted - 2016.08.04 00:15:26 - [955] - Quote Galaxy Chicken wrote: Hmm, interesting. Let me ask you something. Do you often make completely BS claims about something you clearly know nothing about? In point of fact, no, I don't. I feel qualified to speak on this subject as I have both ganked a few dozen mining ships myself and I've hung around a lot of gankers and seen their kills and loss-mails. I'm also fairly good at math - and the calculations are pretty simple. Which particular part of my post are you referring to? Are you claiming that a t2 fit thrasher doesn't cost 12 million isk? Or are you claiming that 400 million isk is not a good profit for a 10 million isk catalyst loss? Perhaps you are denying that gankers are capable of looting the field? Is it too hard? Please...elaborate.
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 557	Posted - 2016.08.04 00:18:33 - [956] - Quote I don't know man. Couple of pages ago he claimed a catalyst can solo HACs and strategic cruisers. Then he doubled-back and said it had to be failfit; proceeded to assert anything sub-battleship with cargoextenders and T2 mods is profitable to gank- also false. Not one to give up easily, he then come up with "AHA! But how about this Tornado- that's profitable right?" and while I don't disagree it's perhaps profitable (if you don't take :opportunity cost: into account, amirite?), it's not nearly as profitable as he claimed it to be. Like one eighth. Now if you insist to take a notoriously no-tank ship and insist I fit it expensive on purpose, I don't even know what he's arguing. But it's nowhere near "anything below battleship", that's for sure. And he sure as hell won't be soloing it either. From such a big name (the man has a doctrine named after him for crying out loud), member of the infamous Pandemic Legion, I was expecting less bullsht. I know some of you are here for popcorn but imagine for a second someone here didn't know any better and bought it all, hook line and sinker? I don't argue when facts or personal experience support the claim, but I had to call him out on this. It's just false. All of it. You can dance around the subject some more but that won't make it true. Back to the basics: IF it were profitable YOU WOULD DO IT. Simple as that. It's a load of baloney. You didn't expect me to formulate an argument in his place did you? Those are his goalposts that keep throttling around. Slippery devils they are, those ECCM nano goals.
Doc Fury Furious Enterprises 8500	Posted - 2016.08.04 00:23:38 - [957] - Quote Doc is now of the opinion that there are less players because of all these entitlement mentality players that keep sperging the forums. Gÿ+ The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper: 'Hodor'.
Jacques d'Orleans Die KInder von Midgar 2801	Posted - 2016.08.04 00:23:40 - [958] - Quote Denavit wrote: Is is because PLEX prices, i remember buying them at 550mill, 500mill, now is almost 1bill, or is it because the changes are making oldSchoolers quit? Dear OP, I shared your tragic story with some starving kids from Central Africa. They said that they now feel much better about their situation, knowing that it could be much worse. Some of them expressed a heartfelt desire to send you some relief funds. Let me know where they should send the camel poop to. The beginning of the End Never drink anything that only gets a lukewarm recommendation from an Australian infantryman!
Paranoid Loyd 9351	Posted - 2016.08.04 00:32:47 - [959] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: @ Loyd: The entire conversation came up because baltec was whining (once again) about how unprofitable ganking mining barges is, and how it is unbalanced compared to any other t2 fit ship. This was a clear attempt to gather pity and, presumably, to convince CCP that they should take pity on the gankers and nerf mining barge hp... Otherwise it would seem to be utterly random and I don't know why you would even be talking about it - let alone defending it so adamantly. Again, in the context of what I posted, nothing Baltec said is relevant. I was not arguing about that , I was pointing out disingenuous posting after confirming facts. If you can't separate that context from this, you are simply not being objective and the conversation can't possibly be productive. Fix the Prospect! New Server Hardware!
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 709	Posted - 2016.08.04 01:18:10 - [960] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Well one of my corp mates got ganked in a T2 fitted T3D and it had no tank as it was a kiting ship and they did not make a profit out of that. Working as intended... Seems more like lying as usual.
Paranoid Loyd 9353	Posted - 2016.08.04 01:19:47 - [961] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Well one of my corp mates got ganked in a T2 fitted T3D and it had no tank as it was a kiting ship and they did not make a profit out of that. Working as intended... ~~Seems more like~~ lying as usual. It is known that is a straight up lie. Fix the Prospect! New Server Hardware!
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 392	Posted - 2016.08.04 01:44:01 - [962] - Quote Paranoid Loyd wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: @ Loyd: The entire conversation came up because baltec was whining (once again) about how unprofitable ganking mining barges is, and how it is unbalanced compared to any other t2 fit ship. This was a clear attempt to gather pity and, presumably, to convince CCP that they should take pity on the gankers and nerf mining barge hp... Otherwise it would seem to be utterly random and I don't know why you would even be talking about it - let alone defending it so adamantly. Again, in the context of what I posted, nothing Baltec said is relevant. I was not arguing about that , I was pointing out disingenuous posting after confirming facts. If you can't separate that context from this, you are simply not being objective and the conversation can't possibly be productive. Well then perhaps I mistakenly lumped you in with some others - in which case I apologize. As I say, I've hung out (in game) with quite a few gankers - and I know most of them do not wish to be seen as victims and are not trying to get pity or anything of the sort. This makes it all the more annoying however when the vocal minority on the forums continually whines about nerfs and how hard this or that is about ganking in the modern EVE etc... And ultimately Baltec (among others) seems to be posting more and more along those lines lately. But as I say yes, I shouldn't have lumped you in with them - thus far your posts have not gone that way for the most part. That being said - I'm not sure this conversation ever had any chance of being productive... 95% of the people talking (on all sides) have their heads shoved so far up their own ***es they can't even read what anybody else is writing anymore. Possibly including myself at times But nobody here is going to convince anybody else to change their current viewpoints...Everyone is just yelling at each other venting frustrations at this point. As usual.
Paranoid Loyd 9353	Posted - 2016.08.04 02:28:01 - [963] - Quote Oh trust me I'm not saying some gankers are not whiners, I'm not even saying Baltec shouldn't be perceived as a whiner, but the difference between the gankers you are trying to lump Baltec in with is that he knows what he is talking about. He might not get every fact exactly right and when numbers are quoted they can always more or less be disputed with cherry picked examples, but the difference between most of the whiners and Baltec is he actually does his homework and has experienced the changes from both sides of the coin, and it shows. Unless you truly understand ganking in and out from both sides you really can't tell and most of the people who dispute what he says do not know whether or not he is on point and simply try to discredit him when they in reality have no idea what they are talking about, operate 99% off hearsay and have only experienced one side of the coin. Fix the Prospect! New Server Hardware!
Caleb Seremshur The Atomic Fallout Kids 830	Posted - 2016.08.04 02:41:42 - [964] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Galaxy Chicken wrote: I checked in on this thread when it was only a few pages long and was disappointed that it had not yet descended into "gankers are killing EVE!!1 abloo, abloo bloo" I'm glad to see that this thread has matured. Actually its not what I was saying mate, I was talking about he lack of balance with gankers making it so casual hisec get fed up and leave the game. There will still be people like you running around. Will be interesting to see just how the "content" develops when it is only players like you. Will be damn funny to watch actually... I think you must have missed the part where CODE was (allegedly?) being sponsored by goons to do the dirty work. Hundreds of billions later, if not trillions, you can hardly quantify that as casual. It shows a degree of organisation and efficiency that is a rare beast in these parts. Crying on behalf of highseccers everywhere is useless, they're the most disjointed and weak non-group out there. Like trying to codify all gazelles on the savannah as belonging to the same herd instead of the truth that most of them belong to nothing and nothing is their lot in life.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5069	Posted - 2016.08.04 04:47:03 - [965] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: @Teckos: I thought you didn't approve of idiocy? And yet here you are applauding people who have supposedly done the math and determined that they could be getting (by their own numbers) 50 million isk in pure profit ganking the hordes of idiots in literally any t2 fit ship other than a mining ship....Yet they are so stupid they choose to gank the only idiots in EVE whom they actually lose money ganking...Rather than leaving them to the bumpers (who don't have to spend a single isk on the endeavor - but still prevent them from mining)... Why is this particular brand of idiocy Teckos approved? Where am I applauding or approving? And I don't approve of idiocy, but I'm also not going to stop someone from being an idiot if they insist on it. I do think that if somebody insists on being an idiot they have no right to come here and demand changes and have those demands acted upon. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5069	Posted - 2016.08.04 05:16:12 - [966] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: I don't know man. Couple of pages ago he claimed a catalyst can solo HACs and strategic cruisers. Then he doubled-back and said it had to be failfit; proceeded to assert anything sub-battleship with cargoextenders and T2 mods is profitable to gank- also false. Not one to give up easily, he then come up with "AHA! But how about this Tornado- that's profitable right?" and while I don't disagree it's perhaps profitable (if you don't take :opportunity cost: into account, amirite?), it's not nearly as profitable as he claimed it to be. Like one eighth. Now if you insist to take a notoriously no-tank ship and insist I fit it expensive on purpose, I don't even know what he's arguing. But it's nowhere near "anything below battleship", that's for sure. And he sure as hell won't be soloing it either. From such a big name (the man has a doctrine named after him for crying out loud), member of the infamous Pandemic Legion, I was expecting less bullsht. I know some of you are here for popcorn but imagine for a second someone here didn't know any better and bought it all, hook line and sinker? I don't argue when facts or personal experience support the claim, but I had to call him out on this. It's just false. All of it. You can dance around the subject some more but that won't make it true. Back to the basics: IF it were profitable YOU WOULD DO IT. Simple as that. It's a load of baloney. You didn't expect me to formulate an argument in his place did you? Those are his goalposts that keep throttling around. Slippery devils they are, those ECCM nano goals. The loot drop for a tornado with t2 guns and mods is about 25 million on average. You can expect to spend 10 million on thrashers. So you could make a small profit by ganking them. It isn't super awesome, but it could be at least self-sustaining. If they are using meta guns you'll loose out. Now, if you were to gank my mining alt in a skiff, you simply cannot make a profit, IMO. You could do it but with catalysts you'd need 15 of them. That is doing to cost you 120 million ISK which is not quite 4x the expected loot drop. A half-assed fit skiff is not wroth ganking. Even a skiff without a tank won't be profitable. This is why when I looked for skiff ganks for July 26 I found precisely...zero. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 558	Posted - 2016.08.04 05:49:03 - [967] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: A half-assed fit skiff is not wroth ganking. Even a skiff without a tank won't be profitable. This is why when I looked for skiff ganks for July 26 I found precisely...zero. Nor did we find any zealots, eagles, huginns, hurricanes, tornadoes or omens ganked (to name a few). Over several days. AT ALL. What was ganked, were mackinaws, retrievers, covetors, T1 industrials, an exequror, a venture, a crucifier, a handful of freighters and to my surprise even a rokh. The target selection speaks volumes, really: profit has very little to do with it. Sometimes the loot fairy smiles, true. Your point?
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 308	Posted - 2016.08.04 05:58:54 - [968] - Quote I think the current exchange rate is 1 tear for 102157689 ISK. It fluctuates though. --Banker Gadget not a banker Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2093	Posted - 2016.08.04 06:16:03 - [969] - Quote It is so amusing to see them ask me to link a kill mail when they know I cannot link it. As for those dingbats saying 30m dropped, well we were talking about T2 fit, so if you stake the 25m value of the Nanite Repair Paste out of the value dropped it is 4.2m. And this is the issue with gankes and ganker aligned players you spin so much you get so dizzy, then you come out with less than smart one liners that anyone with a brain can see is rubbish. Brokk, when I detailed this freighter wreck EHP buff, I did so mainly because they the gankers were crying about the buff to the freighter EHP due to the DCU II adjustment which cannot be used on freighters in any case. They completely ignored the freighter wreck buff. And of course they would because of how they went about it. One of the reasons for engaging with these people is to show their bull, they get a buff to their trade but still call nerf. Also they seem to think I want to make it safe for stupid people, nope, its all about game balance so its not such an easy cake walk for them due to reasons I posted earlier in the thread. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 709	Posted - 2016.08.04 06:40:24 - [970] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: It is so amusing to see them ask me to link a kill mail when they know I cannot link it due to forum rules. Doesn't matter, what anyone asks for. You never link evidence of any kind anyway. Forum rules have nothing to do with it. Lack of evidence is why you don't link anything. You just lie and squeal your tears all over the place.
Paranoid Loyd 9353	Posted - 2016.08.04 06:52:32 - [971] - Quote Right Drac you say I'm twisting the story, the evidence is right on the killmail, you brought that fit into the discussion, it doesn't work without the green afterburner so if that qualifies as a T2 fit you are completely ignoring the fact that it cost 25 mil and could have just as easily dropped. The amount of paste he was carrying was certainly questionable if you are a penny pincher but if you're not, it's not really that unreasonable and is also part of the fit. The fact of the matter is it was a profitable gank. Fix the Prospect! New Server Hardware!
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2094	Posted - 2016.08.04 07:11:21 - [972] - Quote Paranoid Loyd wrote: Right Drac you say I'm twisting the story, the evidence is right on the killmail, you brought that fit into the discussion, it doesn't work without the green afterburner so if that qualifies as a T2 fit you are completely ignoring the fact that it cost 25 mil and could have just as easily dropped. The amount of paste he was carrying was certainly questionable if you are a penny pincher but if you're not, it's not really that unreasonable and is also part of the fit. The fact of the matter is, it was a profitable gank. That was the only one to hand, it had no tank and was largely T2 fit, the fact is that had it been a T2 AB that would be about 2.4m. The fact is that the T2 fit would not have given a profit, and I have always said it is the cargo that matters, and you just agreed with me on that subject. There is nothing wrong in making profit from the cargo, but to expect to make a profit from a T2 fit ship is just wrong. It was profitable due to the cargo, simple as that. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5071	Posted - 2016.08.04 07:55:25 - [973] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: A half-assed fit skiff is not wroth ganking. Even a skiff without a tank won't be profitable. This is why when I looked for skiff ganks for July 26 I found precisely...zero. Nor did we find any zealots, eagles, huginns, hurricanes, tornadoes or omens ganked (to name a few). Over several days. AT ALL. What was ganked, were mackinaws, retrievers, covetors, T1 industrials, an exequror, a venture, a crucifier, a handful of freighters and to my surprise even a rokh. The target selection speaks volumes, really: profit has very little to do with it. Sometimes the loot fairy smiles, true. Your point? But how often do HACs run around with no tank? I believe the criteria that baltec used was you fit the zealot with a t2 fit and then filled the lows with cargo expanders...wow...you found no kills like that. That tells us....what I don't have a clue, but probably not what you think it does. Anyhow, such a zealot would have, on average a 5.5 million loot drop with an EHP (with my skills) of 9,059. So yeah, a ship like that could be easily ganked by a single catalyst....and not make a profit if we look at just the modules. But comparing it to say the skiff, it has a **** tank out of the box, with a half ass tank, and with the best tank you could fit on a zealot with implants, boosts, and anything else you can think of in looking at EHP. Compared to the skiff it does not have anywhere near the same tank....which I believe was baltec's primary point. One could argue that sig tanking is a possibility with the zealot, but EHP wise there does seem to be alot more tank on skiffs than what is considered a fairly tanky HAC. Baltec's point that the skiff has been pretty much "pre fit" to have an awesome tank is not without some basis. Maybe he is still wrong--i.e. the skiff should have that kind of a tank. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Rek Seven Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 2258	Posted - 2016.08.04 08:10:37 - [974] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Rek Seven wrote: Not really, it's just being specific and sticking with what the gaming industry has considered game content to be for several years now. Sure. We can break it down, IMO, as content provided by CCP--e.g. missions. Then there is content the players provide such as a fight between two or more players. What players do provide different levels of content for others. Quote: DLC (downloadable content) and content expansions are stuff the developers add to the game. Players simply use/interact with that content, they are not content creators. The closest thing to content creation in Eve is the development of third party apps. By this narrow definition the bulk of the Eve patches have very little content. CCP has not seeded a single citadel for example. When a "new ship is added to the game" it is not added by CCP, not literally. The blueprint is, or a process to get a blueprint copy, but it takes a player to actually introduce these new ships. So yes, you have a limited view of "content". If you are looking for "content" from CCP yes you'll be disappointed and leave. But then again this was never the game for you. You miss the point. There is already a word for players fighting each other... it is called "fighting" so why do eve players feel the need to call it creating content. All they are doing is playing the game using the in-game content provided by CCP. Is a chess player creating content simply be moving the pieces around the board?! I agree that ccp have created very little content over the last few expansions. The last set of expansions can be described as polish/improvement of existing content and features. By simply adding citadels and ships to the game, CCP add the content. It is stupid to describe what CCP add and what players add as both being content. It is just your oversimplification of the word due to a limited vocabulary. By your definition even chatting to someone in local is content... which is really dumb. So sorry the burst your bubble but you are nothing but a player The wishlist is pretty much complete...
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17800	Posted - 2016.08.04 08:19:51 - [975] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: But how often do HACs run around with no tank? I believe the criteria that baltec used was you fit the zealot with a t2 fit and then filled the lows with cargo expanders...wow...you found no kills like that. That tells us....what I don't have a clue, but probably not what you think it does. Anyhow, such a zealot would have, on average a 5.5 million loot drop with an EHP (with my skills) of 9,059. So yeah, a ship like that could be easily ganked by a single catalyst....and not make a profit if we look at just the modules. But comparing it to say the skiff, it has a **** tank out of the box, with a half ass tank, and with the best tank you could fit on a zealot with implants, boosts, and anything else you can think of in looking at EHP. Compared to the skiff it does not have anywhere near the same tank....which I believe was baltec's primary point. One could argue that sig tanking is a possibility with the zealot, but EHP wise there does seem to be alot more tank on skiffs than what is considered a fairly tanky HAC. Baltec's point that the skiff has been pretty much "pre fit" to have an awesome tank is not without some basis. Maybe he is still wrong--i.e. the skiff should have that kind of a tank. Thats exactly my point and what this conversation is about. Once again the usual suspects are moving goalposts and changing arguments as I show facts to try and confuse the conversation. Its no wonder I have to keep on posting the same things over and over when these people ignore what was posted and decide to go off on a tangent because they simple cannot keep within the context of the argument. So lets bring this back to what I said, the barge lineup is poorly balanced because CCP decided to pre fit barges which means they are both out of whack with each other and the rest of the ships in EVE. Yes, you can profitably gank most T2 fitted subcaps below battleships if they fit like miners do (no tank) which is partly why the skiff and procurer are out of whack.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17800	Posted - 2016.08.04 08:24:05 - [976] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: It is stupid to describe what CCP add and what players add as both being content. It is just your oversimplification of the word due to a limited vocabulary. By your definition even chatting to someone in local is content... which is really dumb. So sorry the burst your bubble but you are nothing but a player CCP didn't bring the interdictions, players did. CCP didn't organise and run burn jita events, players did. CCP didnt turn around and say ok we are now going to run the fall of the Imperium, players did that. This is a sandbox game, the whole idea behind it is that players make the content and they can be more than "just another player".
Rek Seven Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 2258	Posted - 2016.08.04 08:36:16 - [977] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Rek Seven wrote: It is stupid to describe what CCP add and what players add as both being content. It is just your oversimplification of the word due to a limited vocabulary. By your definition even chatting to someone in local is content... which is really dumb. So sorry the burst your bubble but you are nothing but a player CCP didn't bring the interdictions, players did. CCP didn't organise and run burn jita events, players did. CCP didnt turn around and say ok we are now going to run the fall of the Imperium, players did that. Non of that is in-game content - it's player activity/event. Content is physical (in a digital world scene), it is something that exists irrespective of what a person does with it. The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5071	Posted - 2016.08.04 08:37:06 - [978] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: You miss the point. There is already a word for players fighting each other... it is called "fighting" so why do eve players feel the need to call it creating content. All they are doing is playing the game using the in-game content provided by CCP. Is a chess player creating content simply be moving the pieces around the board?! No, I got your point. You are using a very narrow definition. Yes, fighting can lead to content in this game. It makes the game interesting and fun, that is content at its most simple form. Further, Eve is not like chess in that in chess, there isn't much to do other than "fight" and it is not a game that will give you surprises like you can find in other games. In chess there is nothing hidden. You know where all of your opponents pieces are. In a game with where things can be hidden you can have outcomes that were not anticipated. Consider the two games: 1. In chess you know everything about your opponent and he knows everything about you. In Eve that is probably not true. 2. In chess there are predefined movements and you each tack turns. In Eve there are no predefined movements and you can and often do act simultaneously. 3. There is not much room for innovation in chess. In Eve if you do something nobody has thought of before you can gain an advantage. And here is an example in game, anti-ganking. There is nothing in the game to point to this kind of an outcome. Yet some players have responded to the act of ganking by working together in an attempt to counter ganking. It is an example of spontaneous order. Another example is Eve Uni. There was no mechanic that would assure or prevent players from coming up with such a thing in game. Another was Hulkageddon. There were not mechanics or anything from CCP that would have lead to players organizing such a competition. Eve is about spontaneous order. Chess is not. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5071	Posted - 2016.08.04 08:38:35 - [979] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: baltec1 wrote: Rek Seven wrote: It is stupid to describe what CCP add and what players add as both being content. It is just your oversimplification of the word due to a limited vocabulary. By your definition even chatting to someone in local is content... which is really dumb. So sorry the burst your bubble but you are nothing but a player CCP didn't bring the interdictions, players did. CCP didn't organise and run burn jita events, players did. CCP didnt turn around and say ok we are now going to run the fall of the Imperium, players did that. Non of that is in-game content Sure was content for me....in game. I was at several Burn Jita events. I fought in the war that brought down the Imperium. So yeah, it sure was content for me. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Rek Seven Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 2258	Posted - 2016.08.04 08:42:05 - [980] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Non of that is in-game content Sure was content for me....in game. I was at several Burn Jita events. I fought in the war that brought down the Imperium. So yeah, it sure was content for me.[/quote] No it was an entertaining activity for you. Keep calling it content all you like but it is not that. The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 710	Posted - 2016.08.04 08:44:40 - [981] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Paranoid Loyd wrote: Right Drac you say I'm twisting the story, the evidence is right on the killmail, you brought that fit into the discussion, it doesn't work without the green afterburner so if that qualifies as a T2 fit you are completely ignoring the fact that it cost 25 mil and could have just as easily dropped. The amount of paste he was carrying was certainly questionable if you are a penny pincher but if you're not, it's not really that unreasonable and is also part of the fit. The fact of the matter is, it was a profitable gank. That was the only one to hand, it had no tank and was largely T2 fit, the fact is that had it been a T2 AB that would be about 2.4m. The fact is that the T2 fit would not have given a profit, and I have always said it is the cargo that matters, and you just agreed with me on that subject. There is nothing wrong in making profit from the cargo, but to expect to make a profit from a T2 fit ship is just wrong. It was profitable due to the cargo, simple as that. Flip, flip, flip, flop. Earlier you claimed that very kill was not profitable "working as intended". You were full of BS as usual. Now claiming if it was fit differently it wouldn't have been profitable means nothing. It was fit as it was and was profitable despite your lies.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5071	Posted - 2016.08.04 08:45:41 - [982] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: It is stupid to describe what CCP add and what players add as both being content. It is just your oversimplification of the word due to a limited vocabulary. By your definition even chatting to someone in local is content... which is really dumb. First off no it is not stupid. If I make a batch of T2 guns and players buy them and go have fun with them, I am helping them have fun....I am providing something not CCP. CCP provided the environment and the rules by which I could provide other players T2 guns, but CCP did not. Your problem is you just don't understand what spontaneous order is. That is what this game is about. Let people into the game universe with some simple rules/mechanics and see what they do. Coalitions, BTW are an example of spontaneous order. Rental empires in NS, more spontaneous order. Players getting together and coming up with things that do not have a mechanic in game that would ensure their existence. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Rek Seven Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 2258	Posted - 2016.08.04 08:47:29 - [983] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: 1. In chess you know everything about your opponent and he knows everything about you. In Eve that is probably not true. 2. In chess there are predefined movements and you each tack turns. In Eve there are no predefined movements and you can and often do act simultaneously. 3. There is not much room for innovation in chess. In Eve if you do something nobody has thought of before you can gain an advantage. It is all relative. EVE is chess only on a bigger board, with more pieces, more moves and more players. We rely on the developers to expand our game of chess through the introduction of new content. Still, there is a finite number of moves we can make. The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5071	Posted - 2016.08.04 08:52:11 - [984] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Non of that is in-game content Sure was content for me....in game. I was at several Burn Jita events. I fought in the war that brought down the Imperium. So yeah, it sure was content for me. No it was an entertaining activity for you. Keep calling it content all you like but it is not that.[/quote] No, it is content. Content is intended to entertain, amuse, provide enjoyment. That is what those things did. There for it is content. Oh, and yeah local can provide content. Once in a system some scrub was popping out cans and baiting people left and right. Finally an older players asked him in local something like, "Is there a reason you are popping out all these cans or are you completely incontinent?" Made me laugh. Good enough for me. Here, you say content is something provided by the game developer. Okay, and it is provided to....the reason for it is....provide entertainment, amusement and enjoyment? Why can't other players provide that? Especially in a game where there are very few limits on player interaction...unlike other games like WoW. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17800	Posted - 2016.08.04 08:52:57 - [985] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: Non of that is in-game content. Its all content. My pet hobby of never not flying a megathron is content for me and others. CCP had nothing to do with it.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5071	Posted - 2016.08.04 08:53:32 - [986] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: 1. In chess you know everything about your opponent and he knows everything about you. In Eve that is probably not true. 2. In chess there are predefined movements and you each tack turns. In Eve there are no predefined movements and you can and often do act simultaneously. 3. There is not much room for innovation in chess. In Eve if you do something nobody has thought of before you can gain an advantage. It is all relative. EVE is chess only on a bigger board, with more pieces, more moves and more players. We rely on the developers to expand our game of chess through the introduction of new content. Still, there is a finite number of moves we can make. Load of utter bullcrap. Can chess pieces disappear? Can the rook light a cyno and call in 50 friends? Can one of your own pieces turn on you and take your king? No!?!?! My goodness. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Rek Seven Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 2258	Posted - 2016.08.04 08:54:45 - [987] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Rek Seven wrote: It is stupid to describe what CCP add and what players add as both being content. It is just your oversimplification of the word due to a limited vocabulary. By your definition even chatting to someone in local is content... which is really dumb. First off no it is not stupid. If I make a batch of T2 guns and players buy them and go have fun with them, I am helping them have fun....I am providing something not CCP. CCP provided the environment and the rules by which I could provide other players T2 guns, but CCP did not. Your problem is you just don't understand what spontaneous order is. That is what this game is about. Let people into the game universe with some simple rules/mechanics and see what they do. Coalitions, BTW are an example of spontaneous order. Rental empires in NS, more spontaneous order. Players getting together and coming up with things that do not have a mechanic in game that would ensure their existence. It is not me who lacks understanding here. I understand your point perfectly - i simply disagree we should use the word content to describe player actions instead of being specific. Without CCP you would have no T2 guns to provide. Yes the act of you manufacturing them and the trading them to another player is a fun activity but it is only possible because the game has been designed to allow you to do that. The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Rek Seven Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 2258	Posted - 2016.08.04 08:56:17 - [988] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Rek Seven wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: 1. In chess you know everything about your opponent and he knows everything about you. In Eve that is probably not true. 2. In chess there are predefined movements and you each tack turns. In Eve there are no predefined movements and you can and often do act simultaneously. 3. There is not much room for innovation in chess. In Eve if you do something nobody has thought of before you can gain an advantage. It is all relative. EVE is chess only on a bigger board, with more pieces, more moves and more players. We rely on the developers to expand our game of chess through the introduction of new content. Still, there is a finite number of moves we can make. Load of utter bullcrap. Can chess pieces disappear? Can the rook light a cyno and call in 50 friends? Can one of your own pieces turn on you and take your king? No!?!?! My goodness. Again you miss the point... but to answer your question, Yes - in a world where chess has been expanded to the point where it has become eve online, all those things can happen. The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5071	Posted - 2016.08.04 08:59:15 - [989] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Rek Seven wrote: It is stupid to describe what CCP add and what players add as both being content. It is just your oversimplification of the word due to a limited vocabulary. By your definition even chatting to someone in local is content... which is really dumb. First off no it is not stupid. If I make a batch of T2 guns and players buy them and go have fun with them, I am helping them have fun....I am providing something not CCP. CCP provided the environment and the rules by which I could provide other players T2 guns, but CCP did not. Your problem is you just don't understand what spontaneous order is. That is what this game is about. Let people into the game universe with some simple rules/mechanics and see what they do. Coalitions, BTW are an example of spontaneous order. Rental empires in NS, more spontaneous order. Players getting together and coming up with things that do not have a mechanic in game that would ensure their existence. It is not me who lacks understanding here. I understand your point perfectly - i simply disagree we should use the word content to describe player actions instead of being specific. Without CCP you would have no T2 guns to provide. Yes the act of you manufacturing them and the trading them to another player is a fun activity but it is only possible because the game has been designed to allow you to do that. Yes, I already noted that. You are not quite keeping up are you. See that sentence where I wrote, "CCP provided the environment and rules..."? My doing something in game that allows other players to do something in game...presumably we both find those thing enjoyable...that's content. Doesn't matter if I provide it or CCP. In fact, with CCP not providing it and leaving it up to players it creates all sorts of opportunities for additional player interaction...like CODE. trying to gank my JF or some such. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5071	Posted - 2016.08.04 09:01:36 - [990] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Rek Seven wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: 1. In chess you know everything about your opponent and he knows everything about you. In Eve that is probably not true. 2. In chess there are predefined movements and you each tack turns. In Eve there are no predefined movements and you can and often do act simultaneously. 3. There is not much room for innovation in chess. In Eve if you do something nobody has thought of before you can gain an advantage. It is all relative. EVE is chess only on a bigger board, with more pieces, more moves and more players. We rely on the developers to expand our game of chess through the introduction of new content. Still, there is a finite number of moves we can make. Load of utter bullcrap. Can chess pieces disappear? Can the rook light a cyno and call in 50 friends? Can one of your own pieces turn on you and take your king? No!?!?! My goodness. Again you miss the point... but to answer your question, Yes - in a world where chess has been expanded to the point where it has become eve online, all those things can happen. Okay, how come only CCP can provide content? What is to stop players from providing content--i.e. things to do in game? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Rek Seven Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 2258	Posted - 2016.08.04 09:03:28 - [991] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Yes, I already noted that. You are not quite keeping up are you. See that sentence where I wrote, "CCP provided the environment and rules..."? My doing something in game that allows other players to do something in game...presumably we both find those thing enjoyable...that's content. Doesn't matter if I provide it or CCP. In fact, with CCP not providing it and leaving it up to players it creates all sorts of opportunities for additional player interaction...like CODE. trying to gank my JF or some such. Then call it what it is instead of using the catch all word "content". The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 86	Posted - 2016.08.04 09:04:11 - [992] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Rek Seven wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Rek Seven wrote: Non of that is in-game content Sure was content for me....in game. I was at several Burn Jita events. I fought in the war that brought down the Imperium. So yeah, it sure was content for me. No it was an entertaining activity for you. Keep calling it content all you like but it is not that. No, it is content. Content is intended to entertain, amuse, provide enjoyment. That is what those things did. There for it is content. Oh, and yeah local can provide content. Once in a system some scrub was popping out cans and baiting people left and right. Finally an older players asked him in local something like, "Is there a reason you are popping out all these cans or are you completely incontinent?" Made me laugh. Good enough for me. Here, you say content is something provided by the game developer. Okay, and it is provided to....the reason for it is....provide entertainment, amusement and enjoyment? Why can't other players provide that? Especially in a game where there are very few limits on player interaction...unlike other games like WoW. I played WoW for several years and there was pvp, market and so on made by players. Some persons here tend to feel themselves as a niche of special players, it's quite wrong. It's a one server game with a little population so it's normal that things are recerded more and so on. WoW has a huge amount of serves, every single ones had a story and things made by players. I was "ganked" many times when I was playing vanilla Wow, there were dangerous areas, dangerous guilds and so on, then some rules made it all less severe, but it's another thing...
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5071	Posted - 2016.08.04 09:05:30 - [993] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: Then call it what it is instead of using the catch all word "content". What the **** do you call it then? If CCP gives you something to do in game....oooohhh it is content. Wow. A player gives you something to do in game and it is.....? Shall we call Beverly? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17801	Posted - 2016.08.04 09:07:18 - [994] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: Then call it what it is instead of using the catch all word "content". Just to point out EVE Online 11 September 2013 -+ Atlanta, GA, United States -+ Player-made content is the best content in gaming. The second of Gamesradar's articles exploring the Fountain War. CCP do not agree with you.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5071	Posted - 2016.08.04 09:08:38 - [995] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: I played WoW for several years and there was pvp, market and so on made by players. Some persons here tend to feel themselves as a niche of special players, it's quite wrong. It's a one server game with a little population so it's normal that things are recerded more and so on. WoW has a huge amount of serves, every single ones had a story and things made by players. I was "ganked" many times when I was playing vanilla Wow, there were dangerous areas, dangerous guilds and so on, then some rules made it all less severe, but it's another thing... WoW has very little Beverly made by players. Players pretty much ignore each other except in special circumstances that have limited objectives set up by the the developers. Granted, there is still player generated Beverly (happy Rek Seven?) but it is minimal. Eve is the exact opposite. CCP provides very little content and relies on players to provide Beverly. BTW, in case you are confused, calling player generated content content upsets Rek Seven, so to spare his feelings I'm calling player generated content Beverly. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5071	Posted - 2016.08.04 09:11:01 - [996] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Rek Seven wrote: Then call it what it is instead of using the catch all word "content". Just to point out EVE Online 11 September 2013 -+ Atlanta, GA, United States -+ Player-made content is the best content in gaming. The second of Gamesradar's articles exploring the Fountain War. CCP do not agree with you. I guess CCP doesn't get the point either. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Rek Seven Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 2258	Posted - 2016.08.04 09:14:07 - [997] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Okay, how come only CCP can provide content? What is to stop players from providing content--i.e. things to do in game? 1. because only CCP have the ability to fundamentally change the mechanics of the game or add in a new features/content 2. Nothing is stopping players from providing in-game activities and experiencing and interacting with the content provided by ccp. The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2094	Posted - 2016.08.04 09:19:07 - [998] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Paranoid Loyd wrote: Right Drac you say I'm twisting the story, the evidence is right on the killmail, you brought that fit into the discussion, it doesn't work without the green afterburner so if that qualifies as a T2 fit you are completely ignoring the fact that it cost 25 mil and could have just as easily dropped. The amount of paste he was carrying was certainly questionable if you are a penny pincher but if you're not, it's not really that unreasonable and is also part of the fit. The fact of the matter is, it was a profitable gank. That was the only one to hand, it had no tank and was largely T2 fit, the fact is that had it been a T2 AB that would be about 2.4m. The fact is that the T2 fit would not have given a profit, and I have always said it is the cargo that matters, and you just agreed with me on that subject. There is nothing wrong in making profit from the cargo, but to expect to make a profit from a T2 fit ship is just wrong. It was profitable due to the cargo, simple as that. Flip, flip, flip, flop. Earlier you claimed that very kill was not profitable "working as intended". You were full of BS as usual. Now claiming if it was fit differently it wouldn't have been profitable means nothing. It was fit as it was and was profitable despite your lies. T2 fit which is correct, do I have to explain every bit of detail to people like you So much for having a PhD, is it in being stupid... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Rek Seven Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 2258	Posted - 2016.08.04 09:20:53 - [999] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Rek Seven wrote: Then call it what it is instead of using the catch all word "content". What the **** do you call it then? If CCP gives you something to do in game....oooohhh it is content. Wow. A player gives you something to do in game and it is.....? Shall we call Beverly? If that "something to do" is mining, call it mining, if it's shooting someone call it a fight or PVP, if CCP say "we are adding wormholes" call that a content expansion. The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 86	Posted - 2016.08.04 09:25:35 - [1000] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Rek Seven wrote: Then call it what it is instead of using the catch all word "content". What the **** do you call it then? If CCP gives you something to do in game....oooohhh it is content. Wow. A player gives you something to do in game and it is.....? Shall we call Beverly? If that "something to do" is mining, call it mining, if it's shooting someone call it a fight or PVP, if CCP say "we are adding wormholes" call that a content expansion. Exactly. It happens that in this game there are players ( usually gankers ) that seem to show off what they do claiming that what they do is special and that they "are creating content". No, they aren't and they are not special at all, they are playing the game exactly as everyone else.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17801	Posted - 2016.08.04 09:35:33 - [1001] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Rek Seven wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Rek Seven wrote: Then call it what it is instead of using the catch all word "content". What the **** do you call it then? If CCP gives you something to do in game....oooohhh it is content. Wow. A player gives you something to do in game and it is.....? Shall we call Beverly? If that "something to do" is mining, call it mining, if it's shooting someone call it a fight or PVP, if CCP say "we are adding wormholes" call that a content expansion. Exactly. It happens that in this game there are players ( usually gankers ) that seem to show off what they do claiming that what they do is special and that they "are creating content". No, they aren't and they are not special at all, they are playing the game exactly as everyone else. So we are going to ignore the fact that CCP also calls it player made content?
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 86	Posted - 2016.08.04 09:44:52 - [1002] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: Rek Seven wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Rek Seven wrote: Then call it what it is instead of using the catch all word "content". What the **** do you call it then? If CCP gives you something to do in game....oooohhh it is content. Wow. A player gives you something to do in game and it is.....? Shall we call Beverly? If that "something to do" is mining, call it mining, if it's shooting someone call it a fight or PVP, if CCP say "we are adding wormholes" call that a content expansion. Exactly. It happens that in this game there are players ( usually gankers ) that seem to show off what they do claiming that what they do is special and that they "are creating content". No, they aren't and they are not special at all, they are playing the game exactly as everyone else. So we are going to ignore the fact that CCP also calls it player made content? CCP can call it as they prefer...
Rek Seven Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 2258	Posted - 2016.08.04 09:51:55 - [1003] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: Rek Seven wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Rek Seven wrote: Then call it what it is instead of using the catch all word "content". What the ** do you call it then? If CCP gives you something to do in game....oooohhh it is content. Wow. A player gives you something to do in game and it is.....? Shall we call Beverly? If that "something to do" is mining, call it mining, if it's shooting someone call it a fight or PVP, if CCP say "we are adding wormholes" call that a content expansion. Exactly. It happens that in this game there are players ( usually gankers ) that seem to show off what they do claiming that what they do is special and that they "are creating content". No, they aren't and they are not special at all, they are playing the game exactly as everyone else. So we are going to ignore the fact that CCP also calls it player made content? Perpetuating a fallacy does not make it any less a fallacy The main article was titled: EVE Online's Fountain War - Prelude to the biggest PVP battle** in gaming's history. What eve players call "content" rest of the world calls a PVP battles or player conflict. The wishlist is pretty much complete...
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17801	Posted - 2016.08.04 09:54:10 - [1004] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: Perpetuating a fallacy does not make it any less a fallacy The article was titled: EVE Online's Fountain War - Prelude to the biggest PVP battle in gaming's history. What eve players call "content" rest of the world calls a PVP battles or player conflict. So far its only two of you not calling it content.
Rek Seven Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 2258	Posted - 2016.08.04 09:54:59 - [1005] - Quote baltec1 wrote: So far its only two of you not calling it content. So hop in the idiot train? The wishlist is pretty much complete...
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17802	Posted - 2016.08.04 09:59:15 - [1006] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: So hop on the idiot train? Well so far you have less support for your view than the flat earth society.
Rek Seven Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 2258	Posted - 2016.08.04 10:13:11 - [1007] - Quote I don't require support to prove my point, the dictionary and the rest of the gaming community does that for me. The eve community overused the word to the point were it has become a slang term for PVP or a general aggressive action. We know what is meant when eve players use the word content but that doesn't mean they are correct. The wishlist is pretty much complete...
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17802	Posted - 2016.08.04 10:19:13 - [1008] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: I don't require support to prove my point, the dictionary and the rest of the gaming community does that for me. The eve community overused the word to the point were it has become a slang term for PVP or a general aggressive action. We know what is meant when eve players use the word content but that doesn't mean they are correct. Its always been used for sandbox games.
Rek Seven Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 2258	Posted - 2016.08.04 10:30:42 - [1009] - Quote No really but whatever, let's move on. The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 394	Posted - 2016.08.04 10:33:02 - [1010] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: I don't require support to prove my point, the dictionary and the rest of the gaming community does that for me. The eve community overused the word to the point were it has become a slang term for PVP or a general aggressive action. We know what is meant when eve players use the word content but that doesn't mean they are correct. Look...the over-use of the word "content" around here bugs me...but I already linked the dictionary definition of the word "content" a few pages ago in this thread - and explained that your position is also ridiculous. everything in the game - player made or CCP made - is content. It may not be "good" content. It may even be "bad" content. Those are opinions that people can form about the content...but you really can't argue that at its most basic level it is content. You want to compare it to other games? Fine. Lets take one I'm somewhat familiar with and have heard a lot of friends talking about over the past couple of years: League of Legends. Do you know what the #1 response I get from someone when I ask them what they think of the game is? They don't talk about the gameplay, they don't talk about the mechanics...They talk about the insanely toxic community of players* in the game. The actions and attitudes of players* are a very large part of the "content" of most games - particularly when speaking of player experiences in them rather than just writing a box advertisement... So seriously...just give it up already...it is unquestionably "content". If you think it is "bad" content? Good for you - avoid it as much as you can...but it won't make it leave the game. Rek Seven wrote: Anyway, we can argue this all day if you like but it's pointless and off topic... Sticking with my original point, i quit the game when i am bored of the content ccp provide not because of the activities the players enable me to participate in. If you limit yourself to the PvE content provided by CCP, you won't be playing EVE long...
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 394	Posted - 2016.08.04 10:39:08 - [1011] - Quote And baltec... Loyd is correct, you do know what you are talking about. And I don't even disagree with you on most topics, at a fundamental level. But you do get carried away in some of your examples here I've noticed...And you like to exaggerate data to make it lean more heavily the direction you want it to - even when it already supports your point for the most part. If you nitpick and point out every little flaw in everyone else's examples, analogies, and statistics....You should be prepared for people to return the favour and nitpick exaggerations/mistakes you make in presenting your own data. "Turnabout is fair play" and all that. Anyway, I'll try to stop being so pedantic myself and let you stay "on topic" in so far as that is possible here (given that the thread hasn't been on the OP's topic for a few pages now...) carry on
Rek Seven Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 2259	Posted - 2016.08.04 10:48:38 - [1012] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: and explained that your position is also ridiculous. everything in the game - player made or CCP made - is content. I'll stop you there. I have made it clear that i do not agree with this so it's pointless to continue. I can accept that players want to use a word incorrectly, i'm just pointing out that the word is being used incorrectly. So just accept that. It's like arguing that a swimming pool full of water is actually a swimming pool full of liquid. Technically both are right but the guy who said it is full of water is more right. The wishlist is pretty much complete...
March rabbit Mosquito Squadron The-Culture 1842	Posted - 2016.08.04 11:07:12 - [1013] - Quote baltec1 wrote: So we are going to ignore the fact that CCP also calls it player made content? Not taking sides here. Just pointing that in many circumstances players agree that CCP's opinion is wrong. The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 710	Posted - 2016.08.04 11:23:32 - [1014] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: The eve community overused the word to the point were it has become a slang term for PVP or a general aggressive action. We know what is meant when eve players use the word content but that doesn't mean they are correct. Where did you get this narrow understanding from? The use of the word 'content' is just a convention in Eve. It doesn't need to match some dictionary definition and certainly doesn't apply to just pvp. There is a lot of content in the game, generated by players that has absolutely nothing at all to do with pvp (ie. shooting kind of pvp).
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 395	Posted - 2016.08.04 11:24:42 - [1015] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: and explained that your position is also ridiculous. everything in the game - player made or CCP made - is content. I'll stop you there. I have made it clear that i do not agree with this so it's pointless to continue. I can accept that players want to use a word incorrectly, i'm just pointing out that the word is being used incorrectly. So just accept that. It's like arguing that a swimming pool full of water is actually a swimming pool full of liquid. Technically both are right but the guy who said it is full of water is more right. To continue your own analogy - The key difference here is that you have not been arguing that both are technically right. You haven't even been arguing that the swimming pool is full of water. You've been wasting all of your time arguing that the swimming pool is NOT full of liquid. And as you say - the swimming pool is full of liquid. There may be better words for it - but the word liquid is not wrong...And it is ridiculous for you to keep arguing that it is wrong just because there may be better words to use...
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 710	Posted - 2016.08.04 11:28:18 - [1016] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: T2 fit which is correct, do I have to explain every bit of detail to people like you So much for having a PhD, is it in being stupid... What would be better is if you just don't lie. Sure, I should have studied being stupid. You would have been a gold mine of data.
Rek Seven Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 2259	Posted - 2016.08.04 11:43:04 - [1017] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: [quote=Rek Seven] Basically you heard somebody saying the swimming pool is full of liquid...and you've spent several pages arguing and trying to convince him that "NO no no no no it isn't full of liquid...its full of...um....that other thing....But DEFINITELY NOT LIQUID!!!" So if the pool is fun off radioactive waste, you don't think that is an important distinction to make? Your logic is flawed and you miss the point. If there is a specific word for a specific thing then there is no reason to use a general word for that think and to argue other wise is idiotic. If i want ten oranges and 5 apples, I don't ask my greengrocer for 15 fruit... which is essentially saying i should do. The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 395	Posted - 2016.08.04 11:52:16 - [1018] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: [quote=Rek Seven] Basically you heard somebody saying the swimming pool is full of liquid...and you've spent several pages arguing and trying to convince him that "NO no no no no it isn't full of liquid...its full of...um....that other thing....But DEFINITELY NOT LIQUID!!!" So if the pool is full of oil instead of water, you don't think that is an important distinction to make? Your logic is flawed and you miss the point. If there is a specific word for a specific thing then there is no reason to use a general word for that thing and to argue other wise is idiotic. If i want ten oranges and 5 apples, I don't ask my greengrocer for 15 fruit... which is essentially what you are saying i should do. Actually had you read my post a few pages back on the subject you would have noticed that I made the exact point you are now trying to make. But it isn't the point you have been arguing. Re-read your own posts, I don't think you remember what you actually said...Because you've spent the past few pages arguing with the grocer that he doesn't have any fruit - and doing so in front of the orange and apple displays... If your point was that they were correct, but vague - and that they should use more precise wording...Then you should have said it. Not argued that their word was "wrong".
Rek Seven Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 2260	Posted - 2016.08.04 11:54:12 - [1019] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: If your point was that they were correct, but vague - and that they should use more precise wording...Then you should have said it. Not argued that their word was "wrong". Like i already did here you mean... Rek Seven wrote: It's strange how eve player think they create content by simply playing the game. Maybe it's just a lack of vocabulary... Players create actions, activities or opportunities but not content. The only people who great content in EVE are the developers. For me it is important to make the distinction because I have just cancelled my subscription and was asked to give a reason why - I selected "lack of content". This is not me saying there are not enough players doing things in game, it is me saying "I am bored with what CCP has put in the game". The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 395	Posted - 2016.08.04 11:59:10 - [1020] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: If your point was that they were correct, but vague - and that they should use more precise wording...Then you should have said it. Not argued that their word was "wrong". Like i already did here you mean... Rek Seven wrote: It's strange how eve player think they create content by simply playing the game. Maybe it's just a lack of vocabulary... Players create actions, activities or opportunities but not content. The only people who great content in EVE are the developers. For me it is important to make the distinction because I have just cancelled my subscription and was asked to give a reason why - I selected "lack of content". This is not me saying there are not enough players doing things in game, it is me saying "I am bored with what CCP has put in the game". And now you are back to saying that it is not a form of content at all...Make up your mind... Let me re-translate that for you using your pool analogy: Quote: It's strange how EVE players think that they can add "liquid" to the pool simply by pouring water into the pool. Maybe it's just a lack of vocabulary. Players add *water, but not liquid! The only people who create liquid* in EVE are the developers. Do you see how ridiculous that sounds? And why people take offense at it? Seriously... I mean I get what you mean - I really do...but you are using the word "wrong" in the same vague, misleading, and borderline incorrect sense in which the people you are arguing with are using the word "content".... It is quite ironic really...but also kind of annoying. So stop it...
Rek Seven Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 2260	Posted - 2016.08.04 12:07:07 - [1021] - Quote You really don't get it though and are just picking spinets of what i said to support your argument. You have started a new argument here by saying it is ok to uses a general word to replace a specific one. That was what the fruit and water analogies were about. My main point is that playing a game is not game content. End of. Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Players swim in water, but do not add water! The only people who add water in EVE are the developers. Do you see how ridiculous that sounds? And why people take offence at it? [/quote] I did sound ridiculous because you misunderstood what i was saying... So i fixed it for you. The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 395	Posted - 2016.08.04 12:15:10 - [1022] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: You really don't get it though and are just picking spinets of what i said to support your argument. You have started a new argument here by saying it is ok to uses a general word to replace a specific one. That was what the fruit and water analogies were about. My main point is that playing a game is not game content. End of. See...you keep trying to say that you've been arguing what I said a few pages ago... But you haven't. I said that. NOT YOU. You can't just change our sides on this argument when it suits you, declare yourself the winner because I was right - and then change back and try to keep your victory... I admit it is a novel debating tactic...but it isn't going to work. Even here - your main point is that the general word can't describe the specific word. Water is NOT liquid - per you... I give up, you are an idiot.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 395	Posted - 2016.08.04 12:16:26 - [1023] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: You really don't get it though and are just picking spinets of what i said to support your argument. You have started a new argument here by saying it is ok to uses a general word to replace a specific one. That was what the fruit and water analogies were about. My main point is that playing a game is not game content. End of. Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Players swim in water, but do not add water! The only people who add water in EVE are the developers. Do you see how ridiculous that sounds? And why people take offence at it? I did sound ridiculous because you misunderstood what i was saying... So i fixed it for you. Swimming in water is not a general word for water. See? You've completely changed what you were saying now - because you know you were wrong, and I was right. As I said, I'm not changing sides with you - you picked the wrong side, you stay there. Now shut up.
Rek Seven Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 2260	Posted - 2016.08.04 12:25:36 - [1024] - Quote Read the original quote idiot. Swimming is the player action, the water is the content in this analogy. The act of playing the game is not game content, it is simply interacting with the game content within the designed limits. If you believe otherwise, then i would say you are wrong. The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2094	Posted - 2016.08.04 12:27:19 - [1025] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dracvlad wrote: T2 fit which is correct, do I have to explain every bit of detail to people like you So much for having a PhD, is it in being stupid... What would be better is if you just don't lie. Sure, I should have studied being stupid. You would have been a gold mine of data. Well when a person who I think is a complete loser thinks I am a loser I take that as a compliment... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 395	Posted - 2016.08.04 12:32:59 - [1026] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: Read the original quote idiot. Swimming is the player action, the water is the content in this analogy. The act of playing the game is not game content, it is simply interacting with the game content within the designed limits. If you believe otherwise, then i would say you are wrong. Meanwhile, 8 pages ago I read the original quote. That is why I said you were not arguing about using a generic word vs using a specific word - because you clearly weren't. I understand your point. I think you are wrong - because as I said 8 pages ago, in the very generic sense of the word "content" is everything in the game... Then you turned around and claimed that was what you meant all along - and I pointed out how ridiculous that was... And now you are mad at me for pointing out that your attempt to reverse your position and steal my position was ridiculous. I'm following along quite well I think... You are still an idiot.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 395	Posted - 2016.08.04 12:36:45 - [1027] - Quote Also if you must keep arguing this with me - shoot me an eve-mail....we've already derailed this thread too far...
Rek Seven Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 2260	Posted - 2016.08.04 12:43:30 - [1028] - Quote And yet you argue with me without offering a counter point and instead resorting to name calling and pointless comments. I have said what i want to say. If you feel the need to continue this via email, feel free to do so. I'm happy to just go about my day. The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 710	Posted - 2016.08.04 13:48:13 - [1029] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dracvlad wrote: T2 fit which is correct, do I have to explain every bit of detail to people like you So much for having a PhD, is it in being stupid... What would be better is if you just don't lie. Sure, I should have studied being stupid. You would have been a gold mine of data. Well when a person who I think is a complete loser thinks I am a loser I take that as a compliment... I don't think you're a loser Drac. Just a liar. Unfortunately through your lack of integrity you get continuously called out on your lies. If you just stuck to verifiable information, you'd have a lot better position to argue from. But facts seem somewhat inconvenient to many of your claims, though that doesn't stop you claiming to be able to reference devs, etc. when you can't, while calling for others to post figures and then squirming a way to pretend the figures are flawed.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 710	Posted - 2016.08.04 13:59:05 - [1030] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: Read the original quote idiot. Swimming is the player action, the water is the content in this analogy. The act of playing the game is not game content, it is simply interacting with the game content within the designed limits. If you believe otherwise, then i would say you are wrong. Using your water analogy, players don't add additional water to the environment. That's not the same as players don't create content. If a group of people got together to play water polo, then that becomes a game that others can enjoy and consume. The water polo - action of people in the water - becomes content using the tools available that a larger group of people can enjoy. That's all that's meant by creating content in an Eve sense. Players taking the tools available and creating things that others can consume, in all it's forms. There's no real need to get so hung up on black and white definitions. It's a cultural norm of the community, not a formal definition. Being a cultural norm, it's every bit as valid as other uses of the word.
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 310	Posted - 2016.08.04 14:09:06 - [1031] - Quote blinks slowly Holy Bob... What happened while I was snoozing? Ok... Couple of things here. First, basic dictionary definitions aren't going to cut it for jargon. Second, Gaming jargon and EvE jargon isn't necesarrily the same thing. Example : Tank. It means something in gaming jargon: a focal point for damage and/or attacks as a noun, or being the focal point for damage or attacks as a verb. In EvE this word also has this meaning, but it can also mean how a ship is set up to deal with incoming damage/attacks (In general use an armor tank if you have more low slots than mid.), and even more recently the word has morphed to mean EHP in general (The Skiff has too much tank in Baltec's opinion.) Never heard of any other game calling the armor that a character wears "tank". The concept of Content follows in this path into EvE jargon. To me, and I don't think I'm alone in this, content for EvE means a 'New way to play EvE' regardless of the source, but the not rules themselves. And there's a distinction of just using the rules to play and creating a new way to play. For example, I would NOT consider getting ganked in a retriever to be content, but the creation of organized suicide ganking I DO consider player made content. The first is business as usual, the second was the introduction of a whole new playstyle. To me, the difference is in the act of creation in the artistic sense. The first uses existing ideas, the second created new ideas. I think that creation makes all the difference. And I think that's what makes this definition vastly different (yet derived) from any dictionary definition and is close to the gaming "standard" but is more tailored to the unique game and community that is EvE. --Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14377	Posted - 2016.08.04 14:09:28 - [1032] - Quote 2 pages of quibbling over the word content. This is why the developers reply more on Reddit, this BS could at least be downvoted there.
Jessica Starblaze Rookie Help 0	Posted - 2016.08.04 14:11:25 - [1033] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: and explained that your position is also ridiculous. everything in the game - player made or CCP made - is content. I'll stop you there. I have made it clear that i do not agree with this so it's pointless to continue. I can accept that players want to use a word incorrectly, i'm just pointing out that the word is being used incorrectly. So just accept that. It's like arguing that a swimming pool full of water is actually a swimming pool full of liquid. Technically both are right but the guy who said it is full of water is more right. Actually, the one saying that it is filled with liquid is a lot more accurate than the one saying it is filled with water. -> A swimming pool is filled with water + chemicals which creates a solution which does not exactly qualify as Water -> the person saying it is filled with liquid actually is the one who not making an incorrect statement (if one wants to be as pedantic as you are trying to be here) Now let-¦s switch over to a more serious example: So you say any player intereaction in a game is merely playing the game and not creating content..... Situation 1: Let-¦s say Player X creates an alliance that has the goal to destroy the amarrian empire and all the members of that alliance start attacking amarrian ships everywhere, no matter if the ships are controlled by players or by npcs. -> By your statement that is not creating content. Situation 2: CCP creates a new NPC faction which randomly shows up all over space and attacks any amarrian ship they can find. -> By your statement this is content. Conclusion: Despite both situations having the same effect on the environment you claim that, when it is done by players it is not content, but when CCP adds NPCs which do exactly the same thing the players are doing, it suddenly is content. Also your comparison to WoW makes no sense as you are comparing 2 completly different game concepts: Theme Park vs. Sandbox. PvP in a Theme Park surely qualifies as just playing the game, as it does not have any long term effect on the environment or economy. You just use a the games features and so in this case you are not creating any content. However in a persistant world like EvE the player actions do have a long term effect on the environment. Creating an alliance as in the example above changes the game world just as much as an expansion introducing a NPC faction does and thus players are actually able to create content. Of course a single gank hardly qualifies as creating content as it has very little effect on the game world. The activitiy of ganking in general however is a tool to create content on a larger scale. So nerfing things like ganking leads to the restriction of content creation.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14377	Posted - 2016.08.04 14:16:47 - [1034] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: If you just stuck to verifiable information, you'd have a lot better position to argue from. But facts seem somewhat inconvenient to many of your claims, though that doesn't stop you claiming to be able to reference devs, etc. when you can't, while calling for others to post figures and then squirming a way to pretend the figures are flawed. You must be new here This is GD. You cannot expect some posters to tell the truth, acknowledge the existence of facts contrary to their (emotionally born) opinions or even converse in good faith. GD is the forum equivalent of the in game situation where someone flies in a gang and blobs other players for kills (and pretends this is skillful) and then complains about blobbing when a bigger gang kills them. It's all self interest, not any desire for 'balance'. Add in a hefty dose of actual mental illness and you got yourself a Good GD thread lol. I've wasted years on this frustrating 'forum pvp' stuff. Don't be me, just set ignore on the guy and get back to enjoying GD discussions. I'm not kidding, I set ignore on exactly 2 toxic people and it improved my GD experience greatly.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 396	Posted - 2016.08.04 14:18:32 - [1035] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: 2 pages of quibbling over the word content. This is why the developers reply more on Reddit, this BS could at least be downvoted there. So you are saying EVE needs to add a down-vote option to the forums, and an option to sort posts by rating? I would support that.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14377	Posted - 2016.08.04 14:22:48 - [1036] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: 2 pages of quibbling over the word content. This is why the developers reply more on Reddit, this BS could at least be downvoted there. So you are saying EVE needs to add a down-vote option to the forums, and an option to sort posts by rating? I would support that. These forums don't need to be Reddit. Reddit already does Reddit. What it needs is the one thing it won't have: Posters who don't quibble about small things. I say this as a forum Master Quibbler.
Galaxy Chicken Free Highsec Industrialists 70	Posted - 2016.08.04 14:35:29 - [1037] - Quote Galaxy Chicken wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Paranoid Loyd wrote: That's because you don't argue with facts and he does. He keeps saying the same thing over and over again because he is right and you are not only wrong but a liar. baltec1 wrote: Fittings for a gank nado stands at 60 mil, total cost for the ship and fittings is roughly 135 million. Three T1 catalysts will kill it so you are spending 7 million to gank a tornado for potential profit of 60 million. How about any of the figures he posts actually make sense? Exhibit A Exhibit B Exhibit C Exhibit D Exhibit E Exhibit F Exhibit G This from ZKill's frontpage. It's between 6-14 mil. If half of that drops you're looking at 3-7 mil in loot. We've had this conversation before: he'll say "it's 12 mil for a Thrasher", I quickly look 'em up on ZKill and what does my leery eye spot? 2.06 mil, of course. That's off by a rather large margin. It does not inspire confidence in any argument he might have -- and by now I don't even know what point he's trying to prove anymore. I'm just debunking false figures for those who might take them at face value and work from there. Whenever numbers get posted and arguments spun on top of those: do take the time to VERIFY THEM people. Seriously. The fully T2 fit thrasher can get up to 12m if you buy it in a hurry instead of shopping around But when calculating the cost/profit you of course have to consider that the looting alt doesn't even need a suspect flag to loot everything that drops from the ganking ship - so they can, on average, count on getting half of it back. On average people who gank mining ships at least break even nearly every time - and often make a small profit. Hmm, interesting. Let me ask you something. Do you often make completely BS claims about something you clearly know nothing about? The whole "On average people who gank mining ships at least break even nearly every time - and often make a small profit." If you had the experience with ganking that you claim, you'd know that this is incorrect. The only reason we're even able to break even on the vast majority of ganks is that we are subsidized by the gracious EVE community. If I invest 10 mil into a gank, I can expect to recover 5-10 mil in loot (my own included) on average. Unless you're super selective about your targets (read as "hardly ever ganking") then you can expect a slight loss over time. Watching the back and forth over ganking arithmatic, one might think it was complicated or something. It's seriously not rocket science, people.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 396	Posted - 2016.08.04 14:50:56 - [1038] - Quote Galaxy Chicken wrote: The only reason we're even able to break even on the vast majority of ganks is that we are subsidized by the gracious EVE community. You know what...I don't even care anymore. You win. I agree - gankers of Galaxy Chicken's calibur are whiny, crybaby idiots who can only operate at all because people hold their hand and give them money/handouts. CCP should clearly coddle them and change the game in their favour, because they are just too pathetic to make it without this extra help. Perhaps some station ads? "For 10 million isk a day, you can save a poor, helpless ganker like Galaxy Chicken from going bankrupt due to his own stupidity. Pledge your support today!"
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 396	Posted - 2016.08.04 14:53:12 - [1039] - Quote Alternatively you could just target miners more than a month old who fit t2 modules... Or scan your targets... Or just hit the haulers and become rich...
Caco De'mon New Order Logistics CODE. 23	Posted - 2016.08.04 14:59:33 - [1040] - Quote Galaxy Chicken wrote: The only reason we're even able to break even on the vast majority of ganks is that we are subsidized by the gracious EVE community. If I invest 10 mil into a gank, I can expect to recover less than 10mil in loot (my own included) on average. I would totally back that up. The enlightened people of New Eden who support our noble quest are the true heroes for without them, the struggle to bring order our of the chaos would be much harder... Also what seems to be missed is that while breaking even on a gank might be something that happens on average, a percentage of ganks fail and that can really ruin things. But that is out cross to (care)bear. James be praised *"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 312	Posted - 2016.08.04 15:00:12 - [1041] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Galaxy Chicken wrote: The only reason we're even able to break even on the vast majority of ganks is that we are subsidized by the gracious EVE community. You know what...I don't even care anymore. You win. I agree - gankers of Galaxy Chicken's calibur are whiny, crybaby idiots who can only operate at all because people hold their hand and give them money/handouts. CCP should clearly coddle them and change the game in their favour, because they are just too pathetic to make it without this extra help. Perhaps some station ads? "For 10 million isk a day, you can save a poor, helpless ganker like Galaxy Chicken from going bankrupt due to his own stupidity. Pledge your support today!" HEY! Why haven't I seen a CODE. ad yet? I wanna be able to throw darts at James' mug while spinning in my ship. Fix this, CODE. Spread your ~~drivvel~~ message to the masses. --Gadget... readying new darts Edit. And OOC... Go all Jonestown if y'all do get an ad up and running. It'll be glorious. Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 397	Posted - 2016.08.04 15:05:16 - [1042] - Quote Caco De'mon wrote: Galaxy Chicken wrote: The only reason we're even able to break even on the vast majority of ganks is that we are subsidized by the gracious EVE community. If I invest 10 mil into a gank, I can expect to recover less than 10mil in loot (my own included) on average. I would totally back that up. The enlightened people of New Eden who support our noble quest are the true heroes for without them, the struggle to bring order our of the chaos would be much harder... Also what seems to be missed is that while breaking even on a gank might be something that happens on average, a percentage of ganks fail and that can really ruin things. But that is out cross to (care)bear. James be praised Well ironically CODE. is pretty new-player friendly in their recruitment - so for CODE. specifically (and not just people in the alliance, I know) I'm sure the average profit for miner ganking does suffer from needing extra ships and the occasional failed gank/etc. My own experience was more planned out - I did the math before I went in, so of course I made sure I turned a profit =P. I'm not a religious zealot, I just wanted to try out ganking. My comments were regarding ganking in general - not the CODE. organization specifically - even though I do realize they are the primary ganker of mining ships. The primary point I've been making all along on this issue is that gankers are in the lucky position to choose how much they spend and how much they make. The only reason not to turn a profit is if profit is not your motive - but that is still your choice - not a broken game mechanic at that point. But if people like Galaxy Chicken want me to pity them - fine, they can have my pity. Just perhaps not for the reasons they want it....
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5073	Posted - 2016.08.04 16:14:22 - [1043] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Rek Seven wrote: Then call it what it is instead of using the catch all word "content". What the **** do you call it then? If CCP gives you something to do in game....oooohhh it is content. Wow. A player gives you something to do in game and it is.....? Shall we call Beverly? If that "something to do" is mining, call it mining, if it's shooting someone call it a fight or PVP, if CCP say "we are adding wormholes" call that a content expansion. See, the generic term is content. I don't care you want to call it, but it is called content. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5073	Posted - 2016.08.04 16:16:31 - [1044] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Rek Seven wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Rek Seven wrote: Then call it what it is instead of using the catch all word "content". What the **** do you call it then? If CCP gives you something to do in game....oooohhh it is content. Wow. A player gives you something to do in game and it is.....? Shall we call Beverly? If that "something to do" is mining, call it mining, if it's shooting someone call it a fight or PVP, if CCP say "we are adding wormholes" call that a content expansion. Exactly. It happens that in this game there are players ( usually gankers ) that seem to show off what they do claiming that what they do is special and that they "are creating content". No, they aren't and they are not special at all, they are playing the game exactly as everyone else. No, content comes in many forms. When an alliance/coalition decides to go to war with another that is content. Content is an umbrella term. Why does WoW get to call everything they do "content" when it is not all the same. It is an umbrella term. Same thing for players providing in game activities for other players to do. The problem here is the limited view you and Rek Seven have. You are wrong, CCP says you are wrong. Good enough for me. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5073	Posted - 2016.08.04 16:17:42 - [1045] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: I don't require support to prove my point, the dictionary and the rest of the gaming community does that for me. The eve community overused the word to the point were it has become a slang term for PVP or a general aggressive action. We know what is meant when eve players use the word content but that doesn't mean they are correct. Anyway, we can argue this all day if you like but it's pointless and off topic... Sticking with my original point, i quit the game when i am bored of the content ccp provide not because of the activities the players enable me to participate in. Please point out in the dictionary where it says "content" comes only from game developers. Oh....you can't. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Blood Retributor Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 36	Posted - 2016.08.04 16:21:07 - [1046] - Quote I have promised myself to not post ever again in these forums, but I guess I stopped caring since then, as for about a week I have decided to quit Eve (after playing it for more than two months). Why am I still here? Bringing Biology to level 5 so I can use the boosters I got from running the "Kill the Shipyard Event" (all three of them), for the unlikely chance that Eve will become "my game" someday and I will be back to ENJOY playing it. I have read a good number of posts in this thread (first 10 pages for sure ) and decided to share a new player's view (my irrelevant opinion) and feel about Eve Online. When I am done, you can proceed with slapping me with whatever accusations that come to your mind. I'll take it, it is forum PvP after all ! First I would suggest changing the name of the game. It should be called As**le/Punk Ganker Paradise. According to what I read about and experience in the game this would be a better name for its current state. There is no real PvP in it. Wherever you turn in the game everyone is "reaping/collecting/savouring/out for" other players "tears". They are actually out there to "PvP" (read blobb/gank/grief) just for that purpose. It does not matter where: fighting in space, scamming, you name it. A new player (2 days) posts on reddit: "I am out for tears. Can you suggest best fit for a ship to grief miners?" (not exact words as I read them about 2 weeks ago). What was the reaction? Everyone eagerly jumped in with suggestions. Honestly, I do not feel comfortable around such a high percentage of people with psychopathic tendecies. How else would you call someone whose intention is to make another person suffer (emotionally or otherwise) and enjoy it? Everyone is talking about Eve as a cold and harsh universe. Most of those people have no idea what that really means. Bedroom/basement/home office "warriors" . If you are a considerate person and have experienced real life harsh and cold universe/environment, you will never want to "reap tears" without a very sound reason. For a long time I wanted to play Eve being misinformed about it. If I would have known who the major part of the playerbase is, I would have not payed for a one year subscription. And by the way, if you come across my only kill (me being killed in a wormhole), please do not try to use that as "carebear lost a Heron and is crying now". I was so bored and burnt out after the Shipyard event that I simply did not care and just wanted to know if there is something else in this game I am missing and I could not care less about the loss. Mining - boring, missions - boring/repetitive with negative effect on one's standings, lowsec - gatecamped, nullsec - divided/owned and most of the time unreachable for a noob that does not care about corporations/alliances. Maybe Eve was intended as a sandbox, but it is not (especially for a new player). I looked on the recruitment forum to find a corp to join, that is in a WH/null. What do I find? Logi/mining ship/bait frigate skills for null, 20 mill SP for WH. Is that an open world/go wherever/do whatever you want environment? Hardly so! So what options a new casual player has? Mine/mission run in hisec coping with all the a gankers and other arrogant pricks and wait and hope that one day you will actually do something you might enjoy. And that in addition to the brick wall learning curve, and artificial/unnecessary complexity/SP requirements. I have an impression that most people keep playing this game only because they got so invested while waiting for the SPs to allow them to do anything meaningful/worth doing in this game. All of the above might give you a hint regarding the low retention of new players. I will be leaving soon, before I get even more invested and I am really sad about it, as I wanted to like Eve Online. I am done whining ! Now you can start slapping me. Fly safe!
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5073	Posted - 2016.08.04 16:26:50 - [1047] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: and explained that your position is also ridiculous. everything in the game - player made or CCP made - is content. I'll stop you there. I have made it clear that i do not agree with this so it's pointless to continue. I can accept that players want to use a word incorrectly, i'm just pointing out that the word is being used incorrectly. So just accept that. It's like arguing that a swimming pool full of water is actually a swimming pool full of liquid. Technically both are right but the guy who said it is full of water is more right. Water is a liquid. So a swimming pool full of water or a swimming pool full of liquid are both correct. Liquid is the "umbrella term" all water is a liquid, but not all liquids are water. Mining is content, but not all content is mining. Fighting is content, but not all content is fighting (see mining above for content that is not fighting). Whether that fighting is due to CCP (you are fighting NPCs) or you are fighting other players. This is where you fall flat on your face and look like a complete bumbling fool. You have restricted your definition so that you can whine and *****, but to everyone else it makes you look like an ass. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Galaxy Chicken Free Highsec Industrialists 71	Posted - 2016.08.04 16:57:48 - [1048] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Alternatively you could just target miners more than a month old who fit t2 modules... Or scan your targets... Or just hit the haulers and become rich... I'm talking t2 fit, no tank. Again, this isn't complicated maths.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14377	Posted - 2016.08.04 17:06:11 - [1049] - Quote Blood Retributor wrote: I have promised myself to not post ever again in these forums, but I guess I stopped caring since then, as for about a week I have decided to quit Eve (after playing it for more than two months). Why am I still here? Bringing Biology to level 5 so I can use the boosters I got from running the "Kill the Shipyard Event" (all three of them), for the unlikely chance that Eve will become "my game" someday and I will be back to ENJOY playing it. I have read a good number of posts in this thread (first 10 pages for sure ) and decided to share a new player's view (my irrelevant opinion) and feel about Eve Online. When I am done, you can proceed with slapping me with whatever accusations that come to your mind. I'll take it, it is forum PvP after all ! First I would suggest changing the name of the game. It should be called As**le/Punk Ganker Paradise. According to what I read about and experience in the game this would be a better name for its current state. There is no real PvP in it. Wherever you turn in the game everyone is "reaping/collecting/savouring/out for" other players "tears". They are actually out there to "PvP" (read blobb/gank/grief) just for that purpose. It does not matter where: fighting in space, scamming, you name it. A new player (2 days) posts on reddit: "I am out for tears. Can you suggest best fit for a ship to grief miners?" (not exact words as I read them about 2 weeks ago). What was the reaction? Everyone eagerly jumped in with suggestions. Honestly, I do not feel comfortable around such a high percentage of people with psychopathic tendecies. How else would you call someone whose intention is to make another person suffer (emotionally or otherwise) and enjoy it? Everyone is talking about Eve as a cold and harsh universe. Most of those people have no idea what that really means. Bedroom/basement/home office "warriors" . If you are a considerate person and have experienced real life harsh and cold universe/environment, you will never want to "reap tears" without a very sound reason. For a long time I wanted to play Eve being misinformed about it. If I would have known who the major part of the playerbase is, I would have not payed for a one year subscription. And by the way, if you come across my only kill (me being killed in a wormhole), please do not try to use that as "carebear lost a Heron and is crying now". I was so bored and burnt out after the Shipyard event that I simply did not care and just wanted to know if there is something else in this game I am missing and I could not care less about the loss. Mining - boring, missions - boring/repetitive with negative effect on one's standings, lowsec - gatecamped, nullsec - divided/owned and most of the time unreachable for a noob that does not care about corporations/alliances. Maybe Eve was intended as a sandbox, but it is not (especially for a new player). I looked on the recruitment forum to find a corp to join, that is in a WH/null. What do I find? Logi/mining ship/bait frigate skills for null, 20 mill SP for WH. Is that an open world/go wherever/do whatever you want environment? Hardly so! So what options a new casual player has? Mine/mission run in hisec coping with all the a gankers and other arrogant pricks and wait and hope that one day you will actually do something you might enjoy. And that in addition to the brick wall learning curve, and artificial/unnecessary complexity/SP requirements. I have an impression that most people keep playing this game only because they got so invested while waiting for the SPs to allow them to do anything meaningful/worth doing in this game. All of the above might give you a hint regarding the low retention of new players. I will be leaving soon, before I get even more invested and I am really sad about it, as I wanted to like Eve Online. I am done whining ! Now you can start slapping me. Fly safe! All of you "EVE needs more players" type people who lament the fact that EVE turns away most people, I want you to read this post. This is what "most people" think like. Your mileage may vary, but for me the big SELLING POINT of EVE is that people like this don't like it.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 401	Posted - 2016.08.04 17:20:45 - [1050] - Quote Galaxy Chicken wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Alternatively you could just target miners more than a month old who fit t2 modules... Or scan your targets... Or just hit the haulers and become rich... I'm talking t2 fit, no tank. Again, this isn't complicated maths. A basic t2 fit retriever should drop ~3 million isk in loot (1 strip miner, 1 mining upgrade) It can be ganked by a 2 million isk t1 fit catalyst in any 0.5 system with concord pre-pulled (using a free rookie ship) You get 750k of the catalyst cost back - so total cost of the gank is 1.25 million isk. 3.75 million isk loot > 1.25 million isk lost. Profit. If you choose to gank ships that will not be profitable, by using cost-ineffective ships or targetting ships that are not cost effective to kill - that is still your choice.... Deal with it.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17805	Posted - 2016.08.04 17:27:52 - [1051] - Quote Blood Retributor wrote: Maybe Eve was intended as a sandbox, but it is not (especially for a new player). I looked on the recruitment forum to find a corp to join, that is in a WH/null. What do I find? Logi/mining ship/bait frigate skills for null, 20 mill SP for WH. Is that an open world/go wherever/do whatever you want environment? Hardly so! Join Pandemic Hoard, Karmafleet or Brave. Dedicated organisations that help newbies be less bad at EVE. I also hear Dreddit is recruiting.
Sarah Flynt Federation Interstellar Resources Silent Infinity 230	Posted - 2016.08.04 17:28:05 - [1052] - Quote Blood Retributor wrote: For a long time I wanted to play Eve being misinformed about it. If I would have known who the major part of the playerbase is, I would have not payed for a one year subscription. From what I can tell it's only a minor part of the playerbase that is like this, it is however a very loud and visible one (especially in highsec). If you don't like the PVE elements of the game, don't do them. They don't get more interresting with more SP, only easier and/or more profitable. My advice would be: get out of Highsec! Look for a newbie friendly corp in any other part of space that puts its emphasis on PVP and not PVE. People in other parts of the game, regardless if it's lowsec, nullsec or WH space, are usually much more friendly towards other players on a social level (which doesn't mean that they won't blow up your ship but that doesn't seem to be your primary concern). Highsec is a cesspool of griefers/gankers/scammers/etc. Many regular players there won't even talk in local out of fear for them. Why CCP puts its new players there is quite honestly beyond me. Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5074	Posted - 2016.08.04 17:33:56 - [1053] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: Rek Seven wrote: You really don't get it though and are just picking spinets of what i said to support your argument. You have started a new argument here by saying it is ok to uses a general word to replace a specific one. That was what the fruit and water analogies were about. My main point is that playing a game is not game content. End of. Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Players swim in water, but do not add water! The only people who add water in EVE are the developers. Do you see how ridiculous that sounds? And why people take offence at it? I did sound ridiculous because you misunderstood what i was saying... So i fixed it for you. Seriously? You sound just...well...the polite word is muddled I guess. Taking your "fixed" sentence. Quote: Players swim in water, but do not add water! The only people who add water in EVE are the developers. So, now I'll use your analogy. Yes, so CCP adds water. Fine. Can we all agree on that? This is a yes/no question. CCP adds water and in doing so gives us content. An alternative is, CCP adds sand to the sandbox. Now, that does provide content. After all in a swimming pool with water you can, sticking with the analogy, swim laps. Of course, while swimming laps can be good for you, after awhile it can get boring. So the swimmers decide to play a game in the pool, a game CCP did not intend them to play, but at the same time does not intend to stop. So the players play Marco Polo. Later the swimmers decide to have races, another thing CCP did not intend, but won't stop. In short, players are taking what CCP gave them and are doing things to amuse themselves. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 401	Posted - 2016.08.04 17:39:07 - [1054] - Quote It is interesting, looking at prices of modern mining items... While every other ship type and module type in EVE has been getting more expensive... the mining ships/equipment have actually gone down in price pretty noticeably in the past few years. I wonder if this is an over-reaction by the industrial section of the game trying to compensate for the perception that tons of miners are being ganked - so they are going to need new ships/gear? I don't have a way to track it, and CCP doesn't care enough, but it would be interesting to find out. It would be ironic if all the ganking these past few years has actually made it easier for new players to get into mining by indirectly driving down all the prices on the equipment...
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17808	Posted - 2016.08.04 17:54:19 - [1055] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: It is interesting, looking at prices of modern mining items... While every other ship type and module type in EVE has been getting more expensive... the mining ships/equipment have actually gone down in price pretty noticeably in the past few years. I wonder if this is an over-reaction by the industrial section of the game trying to compensate for the perception that tons of miners are being ganked - so they are going to need new ships/gear? I don't have a way to track it, and CCP doesn't care enough, but it would be interesting to find out. It would be ironic if all the ganking these past few years has actually made it easier for new players to get into mining by indirectly driving down all the prices on the equipment... We did find that mining ship ganks have noticeably dropped from 2012 so oversupply due to a lack of demand to replace ships and mods makes sense. Some of the biggest donations to events such as hulkageddon came from industry players because they made a ton of isk on the back of the destruction. You could argue that they are infact the biggest beneficiaries of ganking as they supply both sides.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5074	Posted - 2016.08.04 18:01:44 - [1056] - Quote Blood Retributor wrote: I have promised myself to not post ever again in these forums, but I guess I stopped caring since then, as for about a week I have decided to quit Eve (after playing it for more than two months). Why am I still here? Bringing Biology to level 5 so I can use the boosters I got from running the "Kill the Shipyard Event" (all three of them), for the unlikely chance that Eve will become "my game" someday and I will be back to ENJOY playing it. I have read a good number of posts in this thread (first 10 pages for sure ) and decided to share a new player's view (my irrelevant opinion) and feel about Eve Online. When I am done, you can proceed with slapping me with whatever accusations that come to your mind. I'll take it, it is forum PvP after all ! First I would suggest changing the name of the game. It should be called As**le/Punk Ganker Paradise. According to what I read about and experience in the game this would be a better name for its current state. There is no real PvP in it. Wherever you turn in the game everyone is "reaping/collecting/savouring/out for" other players "tears". They are actually out there to "PvP" (read blobb/gank/grief) just for that purpose. It does not matter where: fighting in space, scamming, you name it. A new player (2 days) posts on reddit: "I am out for tears. Can you suggest best fit for a ship to grief miners?" (not exact words as I read them about 2 weeks ago). What was the reaction? Everyone eagerly jumped in with suggestions. Honestly, I do not feel comfortable around such a high percentage of people with psychopathic tendecies. How else would you call someone whose intention is to make another person suffer (emotionally or otherwise) and enjoy it? Everyone is talking about Eve as a cold and harsh universe. Most of those people have no idea what that really means. Bedroom/basement/home office "warriors" . If you are a considerate person and have experienced real life harsh and cold universe/environment, you will never want to "reap tears" without a very sound reason. For a long time I wanted to play Eve being misinformed about it. If I would have known who the major part of the playerbase is, I would have not payed for a one year subscription. And by the way, if you come across my only kill (me being killed in a wormhole), please do not try to use that as "carebear lost a Heron and is crying now". I was so bored and burnt out after the Shipyard event that I simply did not care and just wanted to know if there is something else in this game I am missing and I could not care less about the loss. Mining - boring, missions - boring/repetitive with negative effect on one's standings, lowsec - gatecamped, nullsec - divided/owned and most of the time unreachable for a noob that does not care about corporations/alliances. Maybe Eve was intended as a sandbox, but it is not (especially for a new player). I looked on the recruitment forum to find a corp to join, that is in a WH/null. What do I find? Logi/mining ship/bait frigate skills for null, 20 mill SP for WH. Is that an open world/go wherever/do whatever you want environment? Hardly so! So what options a new casual player has? Mine/mission run in hisec coping with all the a gankers and other arrogant pricks and wait and hope that one day you will actually do something you might enjoy. And that in addition to the brick wall learning curve, and artificial/unnecessary complexity/SP requirements. I have an impression that most people keep playing this game only because they got so invested while waiting for the SPs to allow them to do anything meaningful/worth doing in this game. All of the above might give you a hint regarding the low retention of new players. I will be leaving soon, before I get even more invested and I am really sad about it, as I wanted to like Eve Online. I am done whining ! Now you can start slapping me. Fly safe! Let me see, whining? Check. Wanting only to have player-to-player interaction on his own term? Check. Wild exaggeration in regards to ganking? Check. Calling those who gank psychopaths? Check. Eve is not a sandbox? Check. Complaining about the learning curve? Check. Maybe this isn't the game for those who are insistent on remaining ignorant and lazy. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
xxxTRUSTxxx Galactic Rangers EVEolution. 466	Posted - 2016.08.04 18:44:39 - [1057] - Quote Blood Retributor wrote: I am done whining ! Now you can start slapping me. Fly safe! >>> JUST A GAME <<<
Blood Retributor Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 37	Posted - 2016.08.04 19:27:52 - [1058] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Let me see, whining? Check. Wanting only to have player-to-player interaction on his own term? Check. Wild exaggeration in regards to ganking? Check. Calling those who gank psychopaths? Check. Eve is not a sandbox? Check. Complaining about the learning curve? Check. Maybe this isn't the game for those who are insistent on remaining ignorant and lazy. Good try, but you failed ! Lazy? Not really. I was spending 5-16 hours a day in the game for the whole time since I created my only character. To the point that I started having issues with my spouse. Reading, reading, reading! Ignorant? Not really. More like Inquistive. I had invested years in some other activities (not gaming) earlier in my life that ended up to be a waste of time, so I have become more cautious. I just value my time reserved for "fun" and do not want to put up with the BS you swallowed years ago and are now defending. Read again this whole thread and see what you yourselves, older players, are saying about the game and CCP. Pease, make sure that you read and UNDERSTAND, before jumping to personal offences. Sorry for using the more generic "psychopath" term. Should have used the more precise "sadists". Use Google to research the term and tell me how do you call those who thrive on other people's suffering ("tear reaping"). If you also paid attention I did not complain about learning curve. English is not my native language so I just used an expression that another vet player used in one of these forums. I just considered it the most accurate and descriptive. You seem to be in the arguing mood, so I will ignore your future comments. You should follow Jenn aSide example. She at least brought value to the thread with her comment.
Sarah Flynt Federation Interstellar Resources Silent Infinity 230	Posted - 2016.08.04 19:35:32 - [1059] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: While every other ship type and module type in EVE has been getting more expensive... the mining ships/equipment have actually gone down in price pretty noticeably in the past few years. I wonder if this is an over-reaction by the industrial section of the game trying to compensate for the perception that tons of miners are being ganked - so they are going to need new ships/gear? No idea why you got that impression but that is certainly not the case. Care to give concrete examples? The Crius expansion in mid 2014 has turned the industry side of things upside down. Long term price changes of specific items that aren't artificially limited by CCP over the timespan that you're suggesting are never due to player actions. At best player speculation is making the price change slower, but they don't cause it. Applications like e.g. "EVE ISK per hour" or homegrown solutions can tell you exactly what is most profitable to build with a few mouseclicks which results in price spikes (up or down) only lasting a short time depending on the build time of that item. If there are prolonged increases in item prices, it usually affects more than just a select few items as that usually means that one or more of the materials required to build it have gone up in price. The latter one can of course be the result of player actions (see e.g. OTEC/B0TLRD Accords or more recently WWBee and the destroyed reactor farms of the CFC). Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 401	Posted - 2016.08.04 19:50:49 - [1060] - Quote Sarah Flynt wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: While every other ship type and module type in EVE has been getting more expensive... the mining ships/equipment have actually gone down in price pretty noticeably in the past few years. I wonder if this is an over-reaction by the industrial section of the game trying to compensate for the perception that tons of miners are being ganked - so they are going to need new ships/gear? No idea why you got that impression but that is certainly not the case. Care to give concrete examples? The Crius expansion in mid 2014 has turned the industry side of things upside down. Long term price changes of specific items that aren't artificially limited by CCP over the timespan that you're suggesting are never due to player actions. At best player speculation is making the price change slower, but they don't cause it. Applications like e.g. "EVE ISK per hour" or homegrown solutions can tell you exactly what is most profitable to build with a few mouseclicks which results in price spikes (up or down) only lasting a short time depending on the build time of that item. If there are prolonged increases in item prices, it usually affects more than just a select few items as that usually means that one or more of the materials required to build it have gone up in price. The latter one can of course be the result of player actions (see e.g. OTEC/B0TLRD Accords or more recently WWBee and the destroyed moon mining/reactor farms of the CFC). Just an impression...I had tried to make that clear in the 2nd half of my post (which you conveniently deleted I notice ). I don't do industry anymore, and I don't even need to shop all that often (because I literally have so much junk scattered around the universe I can generally find whatever I need just by rummaging for a few minutes and flying 20 jumps) - but in general the things I do buy are more expensive than they used to be. So I was surprised to note that all of the mining ships and mining items are cheaper than they used to be. Like a lot cheaper... Like strip miners used to be 4 million, now they are 2 million. Retriever used to cost 35-40 million, now it is 25 million. I know I'm out of touch with the industrial side of EVE - it just seemed odd.
Galaxy Chicken Free Highsec Industrialists 71	Posted - 2016.08.04 19:54:21 - [1061] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Galaxy Chicken wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Alternatively you could just target miners more than a month old who fit t2 modules... Or scan your targets... Or just hit the haulers and become rich... I'm talking t2 fit, no tank. Again, this isn't complicated maths. A basic t2 fit retriever should drop ~3 million isk in loot (1 strip miner, 1 mining upgrade) It can be ganked by a 2 million isk t1 fit catalyst in any 0.5 system with concord pre-pulled (using a free rookie ship) You get 750k of the catalyst cost back - so total cost of the gank is 1.25 million isk. 3.75 million isk loot > 1.25 million isk lost. Profit. If you choose to gank ships that will not be profitable, by using cost-ineffective ships or targetting ships that are not cost effective to kill - that is still your choice.... Deal with it. edit: I will grant you that strip miners and other mining modules are only half the price they were when I was ganking - shortly after the big infamous mining ship hp buff - and you are correct this did skew my old profit calculations. noticeably.... But the fact remains that you know going in exactly what your likely profit/loss is likely to be. You get the luxury of choosing how much isk to make. So don't cry if you make stupid choices. Oh okay, so as long as I only gank completely untanked ships with t2 fittings in 0.5 systems and never fail a gank, I'll be good. So I say again, unless you're super selective about your targets (only occasionally actually ganking but spending most of your time passing up otherwise viable targets), you can expect to lose money over time. You asserted that this is how "most people who gank miners" operate, which is very much incorrect. I'm not whining about anything friend, I don't gank for profit. I'm just pointing out that the claims you made are false and you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Look at it this way, by far the largest and most active miner-ganking organization in the game, doesn't do so for profit but rather for ideological reasons. What does that tell you about the profitability of ganking miners?
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 401	Posted - 2016.08.04 20:21:36 - [1062] - Quote Galaxy Chicken wrote: Look at it this way, by far the largest and most active miner-ganking organization in the game, doesn't do so for profit but rather for ideological reasons. What does that tell you about the profitability of ganking miners? To be fair he puts it right out in the open - the leader of the largest miner-ganking organization in the game does do it for profits - and he puts 90% of all isk donated directly into his own pocket (over a trillion isk so far - and that is just what he has publicly reported) and doesn't even do any ganking himself... But that is probably a discussion for another time/place Also TBH you may do a lot of ganking, but CODE is more of an RP group than real suicide gankers...I dunno if you qualify as "typical"... In any case, have fun ganking
Sarah Flynt Federation Interstellar Resources Silent Infinity 230	Posted - 2016.08.04 20:36:05 - [1063] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Like strip miners used to be 4 million, now they are 2 million. Retriever used to cost 35-40 million, now it is 25 million. Where are you gettings these prices from? 2 million? Then you got very lucky as that is far away from their usual price point which hovers between 3.5 and 4 million these days (currently slightly below 3.7 million in Jita). Edit: I suppose you mean T2? Retriever for 35-40 must have been a price spike a long time ago that you're remembering. 25 mil is also very cheap. They're usually traded for close to 30 mil, depending on mineral prices (currently 29 mil in Jita). Apart from that, drawing conclusions from T1 items/ships is dangerous as they're also built by the "minerals are free" idiots. Have a look at http://eve-marketdata.com for statistics that exceed the 1 year limit of the ingame price history. It's quite interresting. Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 401	Posted - 2016.08.04 20:41:43 - [1064] - Quote Sarah Flynt wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Like strip miners used to be 4 million, now they are 2 million. Retriever used to cost 35-40 million, now it is 25 million. Where are you gettings these prices from? 2 million? Then you got very lucky as that is far away from their usual price point which hovers between 3.5 and 4 million these days (currently slightly below 3.7 million in Jita). Edit: I suppose you mean T2? TBH I just looked at T1..because not many miners seem to use T2...and I don't think I've ever actually purchased one - just got them as drops from miners...but the in-game estimate said close to 4 million isk... meh
Paranoid Loyd 9356	Posted - 2016.08.04 20:43:23 - [1065] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: real suicide gankers...I dunno if you qualify as "typical"... Huh? What do you think is typical? Fix the Prospect! New Server Hardware!
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 78	Posted - 2016.08.04 20:48:08 - [1066] - Quote Blood Retributor wrote: Everyone is talking about Eve as a cold and harsh universe. Most of those people have no idea what that really means. Bedroom/basement/home office "warriors" . If you are a considerate person and have experienced real life harsh and cold universe/environment, you will never want to "reap tears" without a very sound reason. Well, it is a game. If someone in game has angered me or encroached on my space or I just do not look the like of them then why can I not try to reap in game tears? Not sure this is relevant at all because if one is unable to separate real life from a game environment then there are much bigger issues to work on. Blood Retributor wrote: Mining - boring, missions - boring/repetitive with negative effect on one's standings, lowsec - gatecamped, nullsec - divided/owned and most of the time unreachable for a noob that does not care about corporations/alliances. THIS is the reason EVE is not for you. It is not a solo game in the long term. There are plenty of solo activities but playing the game solo usually does not lend itself to long term play. Blood Retributor wrote: Maybe Eve was intended as a sandbox, but it is not (especially for a new player). I looked on the recruitment forum to find a corp to join, that is in a WH/null. What do I find? Logi/mining ship/bait frigate skills for null, 20 mill SP for WH. Is that an open world/go wherever/do whatever you want environment? Hardly so! First of all you contradict yourself in this section about corps compared to the one above. Also, I do not think you looked very hard because there are numerous new player friendly corps. Anyway, in game design terms it is unquestionably a sandbox. You may not like the color of the sand or how it feels between your toes, but it is a sandbox.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5075	Posted - 2016.08.04 20:49:32 - [1067] - Quote Blood Retributor wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Let me see, whining? Check. Wanting only to have player-to-player interaction on his own term? Check. Wild exaggeration in regards to ganking? Check. Calling those who gank psychopaths? Check. Eve is not a sandbox? Check. Complaining about the learning curve? Check. Maybe this isn't the game for those who are insistent on remaining ignorant and lazy. Good try, but you failed ! Lazy? Not really. I was spending 5-16 hours a day in the game for the whole time since I created my only character. To the point that I started having issues with my spouse. Reading, reading, reading! Ignorant? Not really. More like Inquistive. I had invested years in some other activities (not gaming) earlier in my life that ended up to be a waste of time, so I have become more cautious. I just value my time reserved for "fun" and do not want to put up with the BS you swallowed years ago and are now defending. Read again this whole thread and see what you yourselves, older players, are saying about the game and CCP. Pease, make sure that you read and UNDERSTAND, before jumping to personal offences. Sorry for using the more generic "psychopath" term. Should have used the more precise "sadists". Use Google to research the term and tell me how do you call those who thrive on other people's suffering ("tear reaping"). If you also paid attention I did not complain about learning curve. English is not my native language so I just used an expression that another vet player used in one of these forums. I just considered it the most accurate and descriptive. You seem to be in the arguing mood, so I will ignore your future comments. You should follow Jenn aSide example. She at least brought value to the thread with her comment. So you act like a jackass, you get called on it, you apologize and then use another offensive psychiatric diagnosis for players doing things you don't ilke...and you are the one complaining about my discourse? I guess that takes a special type of self-centeredness. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 401	Posted - 2016.08.04 20:49:37 - [1068] - Quote Paranoid Loyd wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: real suicide gankers...I dunno if you qualify as "typical"... Huh? What do you think is typical? For gankers? Hauler gankers who do it to make a profit...Or people who do occasional miner/whatever ganks for fun. I realize they are fewer in number - but they've been around since the game began 13 years ago. CODE. is a relatively new concept in EVE - and isn't even limited to just ganking, that is just one of the tools they use. They seem to be primarily focused on their role-play of "saving high-sec" from the "evil bot-aspirants" - not ganking. I believe even the CODE. members here will agree with me when I say that for CODE. ganking is just a tool - not the end goal of their organization...
Paranoid Loyd 9356	Posted - 2016.08.04 21:00:45 - [1069] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Paranoid Loyd wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: real suicide gankers...I dunno if you qualify as "typical"... Huh? What do you think is typical? For gankers? Hauler gankers who do it to make a profit...Or people who do occasional miner/whatever ganks for fun. I realize they are fewer in number - but they've been around since the game began 13 years ago. CODE. is a relatively new concept in EVE - and isn't even limited to just ganking, that is just one of the tools they use. They seem to be primarily focused on their role-play of "saving high-sec" from the "evil bot-aspirants" - not ganking. I believe even the CODE. members here will agree with me when I say that for CODE. ganking is just a tool - not the end goal of their organization... Relatively new or not, should the majority not be considered typical? Ignoring what typical is, what does classifying someone as typical or not typical accomplish? Is one's opinion any less relevant if they are not typical? Relevance should be based on knowledge and experience, not what is typical. I can't speak for everyone but ganking is not the end goal of my organization and I fall into what you would arbitrarily call typical. Fix the Prospect! New Server Hardware!
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 405	Posted - 2016.08.04 21:52:33 - [1070] - Quote Paranoid Loyd wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Paranoid Loyd wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: real suicide gankers...I dunno if you qualify as "typical"... Huh? What do you think is typical? For gankers? Hauler gankers who do it to make a profit...Or people who do occasional miner/whatever ganks for fun. I realize they are fewer in number - but they've been around since the game began 13 years ago. CODE. is a relatively new concept in EVE - and isn't even limited to just ganking, that is just one of the tools they use. They seem to be primarily focused on their role-play of "saving high-sec" from the "evil bot-aspirants" - not ganking. I believe even the CODE. members here will agree with me when I say that for CODE. ganking is just a tool - not the end goal of their organization... Relatively new or not, should the majority not be considered typical? Ignoring what typical is, what does classifying someone as typical or not typical accomplish? Is one's opinion any less relevant if they are not typical? Relevance should be based on knowledge and experience, not what is typical. I can't speak for everyone but ganking is not the end goal of my organization and I fall into what you would arbitrarily call typical. You could certainly consider them typical due to the number of people...but if we are going to start rating the balance or gankability of ships in terms of CODE.'s motivations... then the typical ganker shouldn't care whether there is any profit in it or not, nor how much tank the ship hull natively has... They have essentially endless isk to throw at their fun ganking - both from their profitable ganking and from numerous donations...So the entire discussion of costs vs profits becomes irrelevant. But sure, if we use CODE. as a baseline - their average low-level member ganking miners doesn't make a profit from the gank itself - they only make a profit if they manage to sell a "permit". But they don't need to make a profit - because ganking is merely their form of highly aggressive door-to-door salesmanship/evangelism of their cult (again, all in game - role-play as I have said multiple times).
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 563	Posted - 2016.08.04 21:58:56 - [1071] - Quote Paranoid Loyd wrote: should the majority not be considered typical? is the typical EvE player a .01 ISK biomassed Jita scammer? is the typical EvE player bearing it up solo multiboxing? is the typical EvE player AFK icemining? There are some subtle differences between how many toons are participating versus how many genuine persons are playing. Does a multiboxed bomberwing count? Do the 6 alts also count? In a discussion entirely around profit for the last 16 pages, I would think trying to earn a buck would classify as "typical" yes. If that doesn't factor in, then what the hell are y'all even talking about??
Galaxy Chicken Free Highsec Industrialists 71	Posted - 2016.08.04 22:14:13 - [1072] - Quote Here's you saying gankers, "on average" break even or profit: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: On average people who gank mining ships at least break even nearly every time - and often make a small profit. Here's you admitting most miner gankers = New Order: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: ...even though I do realize they are the primary ganker of mining ships. Here's you claiming that the "primary gankers of mining ships" are not "real" or "typical" and therefore do not count: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Also TBH you may do a lot of ganking, but CODE is more of an RP group than real suicide gankers...I dunno if you qualify as "typical"... It was important that you backpedal out of that one really quick, so you don't have to admit that the "primary gankers of mining ships" = New Order = ganking at a loss. I knew if I gave you enough rope, you'd hang yourself.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 405	Posted - 2016.08.04 22:23:18 - [1073] - Quote Galaxy Chicken wrote: I knew if I gave you enough rope, you'd hang yourself. If you want to discuss ganking profitability in terms of code - the mining ships are irrelevant. Fine, lets say you lose a couple million isk per mining ship - doesn't matter. Because then we have to factor in all the other ships your alliance ganks. The freighters, the industrials, the missioning ships, etc. Your average freighter gank seems to drop around, what, 2 billion isk in loot as a save low-ball estimate? Multiply that by 3600 freighters ganked and that gives us an estimated profit of 7.2 trillion isk. Just from freighters - not even including haulers/etc. Now, lets say you lose 5 million isk per miner you gank - that means you are still making a profit overall for at least 1.44 million miner ganks. Now, lets assume CODE. is nothing but a scam on its own members (just for the fun of it), and your leadership just puts 90% of that straight into their own pockets - that still leaves you with 144,000 fully paid for miner ganks. Since CODE. has only performed 65,000 kills to date - total, I'd say you are making quite a handsome profit with your ganking. Q.E.D. - having done the math - The typical ganker (hereby defined as CODE.) is making massive profits on average. edit: And I didn't even include your donations at all, nor the hauler kills, nor any other sources of income. The real profit amount is of course significantly higher.
Galaxy Chicken Free Highsec Industrialists 71	Posted - 2016.08.04 22:50:57 - [1074] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Fine, lets say you lose a couple million isk per mining ship... I like this guy , he admits he's wrong when he's shown to be so.
Galaxy Chicken Free Highsec Industrialists 71	Posted - 2016.08.04 23:04:21 - [1075] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Because then we have to factor in all the other ships your alliance ganks. The freighters, the industrials, the missioning ships, etc. Your average freighter gank seems to drop around, what, 2 billion isk in loot as a safe low-ball estimate? Multiply that by 3600 freighters ganked and that gives us an estimated profit of 7.2 trillion isk. Just from freighters - not even including haulers/etc. Now, lets say you lose 5 million isk per miner you gank - that means you are still making a profit overall for at least 1.44 million miner ganks. Your math is, as usual, pretty messed up, but before we even get into that, please explain to me how Jason Kusion ganking a freighter somehow results in cash going into my pocket. I'm a miner ganker, that is what we were talking about before you started desperately trying to make this about the Savior of Highsec and whatever else... You act like we have an alliance treasury or something, we don't. We have an SRP fund that is filled through donations.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 405	Posted - 2016.08.04 23:24:55 - [1076] - Quote Galaxy Chicken wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Because then we have to factor in all the other ships your alliance ganks. The freighters, the industrials, the missioning ships, etc. Your average freighter gank seems to drop around, what, 2 billion isk in loot as a safe low-ball estimate? Multiply that by 3600 freighters ganked and that gives us an estimated profit of 7.2 trillion isk. Just from freighters - not even including haulers/etc. Now, lets say you lose 5 million isk per miner you gank - that means you are still making a profit overall for at least 1.44 million miner ganks. Your math is, as usual, pretty messed up, but before we even get into that, please explain to me how Jason Kusion ganking a freighter somehow results in cash going into my pocket. I'm a miner ganker, that is what we were talking about before you started desperately trying to make this about the Savior of Highsec and whatever else... You act like we have an alliance treasury or something, we don't. We have an SRP fund that is filled through donations. Like I said - the miner gankers in CODE. lose money. You are the peons. The amusing slaves upon whose back the empire is built. I agreed with you on that point already: Yes, miner-ganking as CODE. does it is not profitable - and would be considered stupid if taken purely on its own without reference to the greater motivations of the CODE. organization. Since you probably can't understand all those big words, let me simplify it for you: You = Right. You = Bad @ Gank for $$$ But You = OK because CODE. = Reasons Yay You
Galaxy Chicken Free Highsec Industrialists 71	Posted - 2016.08.04 23:28:38 - [1077] - Quote Hey thanks bud. It's really classy of you to admit when you lose at forum PVP.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 405	Posted - 2016.08.04 23:28:59 - [1078] - Quote And for the record - yes, I am jealous of CODE. I wish I'd thought of it first... I mean **** - forget people who afk mine to earn isk for PLEX to play for free.....Arbitrarily declaring myself leader of high sec and recruiting a bunch of easily amused drones to farm isk for me, so that I don't even have to log in to earn isk to get PLEX and play for free? That is absolutely brilliant. James 315 truly is a visionary - at least in the running for the absolute best scammer in EVE history.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 405	Posted - 2016.08.04 23:29:47 - [1079] - Quote Galaxy Chicken wrote: Hey thanks bud. It's really classy of you to admit when you lose at forum PVP. gf
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5075	Posted - 2016.08.04 23:51:25 - [1080] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: And for the record - yes, I am jealous of CODE. I wish I'd thought of it first... I mean **** - forget people who afk mine to earn isk for PLEX to play for free.....Arbitrarily declaring myself leader of high sec and recruiting a bunch of easily amused drones to farm isk for me, so that I don't even have to log in to earn isk to get PLEX and play for free? That is absolutely brilliant. James 315 truly is a visionary - at least in the running for the absolute best scammer in EVE history. That is alot of AFK mining. And PLEX is not playing for free. Sorry, couldn't let that softball go by..... "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Galaxy Chicken Free Highsec Industrialists 71	Posted - 2016.08.04 23:54:31 - [1081] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: And for the record - yes, I am jealous of CODE. I wish I'd thought of it first... I mean **** - forget people who afk mine to earn isk for PLEX to play for free.....Arbitrarily declaring myself leader of high sec and recruiting a bunch of easily amused drones to farm isk for me, so that I don't even have to log in to earn isk to get PLEX and play for free? That is absolutely brilliant. James 315 truly is a visionary - at least in the running for the absolute best scammer in EVE history. You seem to be confused friend, you see, James 315 sends me money.
Sarah Flynt Federation Interstellar Resources Silent Infinity 231	Posted - 2016.08.05 00:07:05 - [1082] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Sarah Flynt wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Like strip miners used to be 4 million, now they are 2 million. Retriever used to cost 35-40 million, now it is 25 million. Where are you gettings these prices from? 2 million? Then you got very lucky as that is far away from their usual price point which hovers between 3.5 and 4 million these days (currently slightly below 3.7 million in Jita). Edit: I suppose you mean T2? I got the prices in jita...where else? TBH I just looked at T1..because not many miners seem to use T2...and I don't think I've ever actually purchased one - just got them as drops from miners...but the in-game estimate said close to 4 million isk... and as I said, it was back just after the mining ship buff - so that may have spiked prices at the time I suppose. Not in the post I quoted. I didn't read the whole thread though, so I must have missed it, sorry about that. Anyway, that explains it then: While mining mods were indeed spiking for a short time due to the mining changes, there is more to it. Not long before that, drone alloys were removed from Rogue Drones and as such the mineral market as a whole was in turmoil (that's actually the really big long lasting spike in april 2012 and the months following, when you pull up the market history on eve-marketdata.com). That took a while to settle but for several years now the module is at around 2 mil. Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 407	Posted - 2016.08.05 00:20:48 - [1083] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: And for the record - yes, I am jealous of CODE. I wish I'd thought of it first... I mean **** - forget people who afk mine to earn isk for PLEX to play for free.....Arbitrarily declaring myself leader of high sec and recruiting a bunch of easily amused drones to farm isk for me, so that I don't even have to log in to earn isk to get PLEX and play for free? That is absolutely brilliant. James 315 truly is a visionary - at least in the running for the absolute best scammer in EVE history. That is alot of AFK mining. And PLEX is not playing for free. Sorry, couldn't let that softball go by..... Lol I know - but I keep seeing a lot of the CODE. forum warriors posting it so I couldn't resist
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17810	Posted - 2016.08.05 01:04:36 - [1084] - Quote Sarah Flynt wrote: Not in the post I quoted. I didn't read the whole thread though, so I must have missed it, sorry about that. Anyway, that explains it then: While mining mods were indeed spiking for a short time due to the mining changes, there is more to it. Not long before that, drone alloys were removed from Rogue Drones and as such the mineral market as a whole was in turmoil (that's actually the really big long lasting spike in april 2012 and the months following, when you pull up the market history on eve-marketdata.com). That took a while to settle but for several years now the module is at around 2 mil. The spike is better explained with what was going on at the time, the barge rebalance saw the end of the mining interdictions, to give you a idea of the level of the change, my corp went into Caldari highsec for one of these events with just 30 people and racked up over 600 exhumer kills in just 2 weeks (I don't have figures for T1 barges but it was just as bloody). Now that is a lot of ships and equipment that needed to be replaced (The number of gank catalysts was incredibly high too and at that time there was no copy/paste fitting, they were all put together by hand. Took 2 months to get ready for it). You can probably see the event in the catalyst history as a spike back in February 2012 when we ran out of ships and had to buy more stock. The price of the hulk for example rose from 220 million to a high of 326 million before slowly falling back down to around 220 million some 6 months later as people got the funds together to replace losses. Mining equipment doubled in that time too. It was a very good time to be building mining ships/mods.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5741	Posted - 2016.08.05 08:51:38 - [1085] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Were they doing things like not using a scout. Autopiloting? No webber? No escort at all? I recall driving a pair of Fenrirs or escorting (back when I had been a logistics officer in my first 0.0 corp) in low sec / 0.0 depending on my superiors decision about my role for the day. Last supply train we had about 28 freighters / orcas / indis (depending on their owner's capabilities) with perhaps 20 carriers as escort and a number of assorted BS / BCs. Those were the epic times, when EvE was totally worth playing at any cost. However, you can't expect everybody to be as organized, to have a whole 16 hours to run such epic convoys. A game that requires 2 subscriptions is not a fair game. It's offering features that require paying twice as much as advertised just to be able to perform basic tasks like ferrying stuff around. If EvE is meant to be played with a minumum of two accounts, that's OK, but then CCP have to tell this to perspective new players or to let players pay 1 account and play for 2. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5741	Posted - 2016.08.05 08:59:25 - [1086] - Quote xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: some are forgetting their place in all of this, if you are a client (us) you take part, if you are the producer (CCP) you provide the area for the clients (us) to take part. when you feel you want to take more a dev role and feel you have what it takes to be a part of the team that brings us EVE then hey, stick an application into CCP and i'm sure they'll interview you and then it's all up to you. until then stfu and play. Some years ago I got interested in that. Having to go live in Iceland and a super-low wage really convinced me to develop software for others. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 710	Posted - 2016.08.05 09:16:09 - [1087] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Were they doing things like not using a scout. Autopiloting? No webber? No escort at all? ... A game that requires 2 subscriptions is not a fair game. It's offering features that require paying twice as much as advertised just to be able to perform basic tasks like ferrying stuff around. If EvE is meant to be played with a minumum of two accounts, that's OK, but then CCP have to tell this to perspective new players or to let players pay 1 account and play for 2. 65% (almost 2/3rds) of players have only 1 account. It's not meant to be played with 2 accounts. Some activities are best not performed alone, whether that involves using alts, or making friends. Either way works. Edit: Source: Graph of accounts per player CCP Quant's reddit post (with additional graphs)
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5742	Posted - 2016.08.05 09:19:23 - [1088] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Sarah Flynt wrote: Not in the post I quoted. I didn't read the whole thread though, so I must have missed it, sorry about that. Anyway, that explains it then: While mining mods were indeed spiking for a short time due to the mining changes, there is more to it. Not long before that, drone alloys were removed from Rogue Drones and as such the mineral market as a whole was in turmoil (that's actually the really big long lasting spike in april 2012 and the months following, when you pull up the market history on eve-marketdata.com). That took a while to settle but for several years now the module is at around 2 mil. The spike is better explained with what was going on at the time, the barge rebalance saw the end of the mining interdictions, to give you a idea of the level of the change, my corp went into Caldari highsec for one of these events with just 30 people and racked up over 600 exhumer kills in just 2 weeks (I don't have figures for T1 barges but it was just as bloody). Now that is a lot of ships and equipment that needed to be replaced (The number of gank catalysts was incredibly high too and at that time there was no copy/paste fitting, they were all put together by hand. Took 2 months to get ready for it). You can probably see the event in the catalyst history as a spike back in February 2012 when we ran out of ships and had to buy more stock. The price of the hulk for example rose from 220 million to a high of 326 million before slowly falling back down to around 220 million some 6 months later as people got the funds together to replace losses. Mining equipment doubled in that time too. It was a very good time to be building mining ships/mods. Yes, I always fondly recall those times, I was producing both exhumers and their BPCs at maximum capacity. I posted about that so many times, you and Tippia were filling the forums with ideology about awful exhumers fittings (was better to mine in an Osprey instead of using your suggestions :) ) but in the end I just followed the trend and bulk made ships for gankers and gankees. Great fun and money! Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5742	Posted - 2016.08.05 09:20:48 - [1089] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Were they doing things like not using a scout. Autopiloting? No webber? No escort at all? I recall driving a pair of Fenrirs or escorting (back when I had been a logistics officer in my first 0.0 corp) in low sec / 0.0 depending on my superiors decision about my role for the day. Last supply train we had about 28 freighters / orcas / indis (depending on their owner's capabilities) with perhaps 20 carriers as escort and a number of assorted BS / BCs. Those were the epic times, when EvE was totally worth playing at any cost. However, you can't expect everybody to be as organized, to have a whole 16 hours to run such epic convoys. A game that requires 2 subscriptions is not a fair game. It's offering features that require paying twice as much as advertised just to be able to perform basic tasks like ferrying stuff around. If EvE is meant to be played with a minumum of two accounts, that's OK, but then CCP have to tell this to perspective new players or to let players pay 1 account and play for 2. 65% (almost 2/3rds) of players have only 1 account. It's not meant to be played with 2 accounts. Some activities are best not performed alone, whether that involves using alts, or making friends. Either way works. Edit: Source: Graph of accounts per player CCP Quant's reddit post That's the usual "average of 1 chicken per person" statistics. Active players who don't live puchasing bunch of PLEXes, end up having to create 3-4 accounts. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 710	Posted - 2016.08.05 09:34:51 - [1090] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: That's the usual "average of 1 chicken per person" statistics. Active players who don't live puchasing bunch of PLEXes, end up having to create 3-4 accounts. Can you validate that claim? From CCP Quant's FanFest 2015 presentation: - 175,000 unique users online per day - 420,000 unique users per month https://puu.sh/qqzBG/ffd6502ea9.png (based on 2014 averaged figures). We also know from comments at FanFest in 2014 that there are ~480,000 names on the monument, representing the total subscribed number of accounts (minus inappropriate names) active back in March 2014. ~420,000 active monthly out of ~480,000 subscribed accounts at the time and 2/3rds with only 1 account, which has been a stable figure for a decade. The specific numbers online are lower now, however a simple comparison of your claim against the available information (did you even go and look at CCP Quant's reddit post linked) suggests that your claim is wrong. Is it so hard to try to validate your assumptions before typing something stupid like " game that requires 2 subscriptions is not a fair game" It clearly doesn't require 2 accounts. That's just a dumb statement that isn't supported by the available evidence.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 413	Posted - 2016.08.05 10:47:12 - [1091] - Quote While the game clearly doesn't "require" 2 accounts - and indeed isn't "meant" to be played with 2 accounts - there are menial tasks that are much easier performed with alts than trying to bug your corp-mates into doing them all the time. Scouting/webbing for a freighter, for example, is fine once in a while - but gets old really fast if you get asked to do it all the time and it isn't even your cargo... Also CCP has been really pushing the dual-account and dual training deals the past few years - so while the game may not "require" or be "meant" to be played with 2 characters, CCP would clearly like everyone to be making alts as often as possible
FlipYa The Lezbian Institute Freaks In The Sheets 1	Posted - 2016.08.05 11:25:11 - [1092] - Quote The Bottom Line is: CCP Arrogance. CCP Development is constantly telling them selves: "We've got bigger things to deal with". As other people have said in this thread: CCP is constantly chasing new development into areas no one cares about... while ignoring core game play issues that people actively petition about - only to be ignored. The CCP user base is down by about 40%-50% over 4 years << and here is a clue : THIS IS Your "Bigger Thing(s) To Deal With" CCP can point the finger in any direction they like.... The Bottom Line is: They can't retain legacy users due to things mentioned in this thread.. which will of course... Be: Completely Ignored
Tao Dolcino EVE University Ivy League 579	Posted - 2016.08.05 11:38:21 - [1093] - Quote FlipYa wrote: The Bottom Line is: CCP Arrogance. CCP Development is constantly telling them selves: "We've got bigger things to deal with". As other people have said in this thread: CCP is constantly chasing new development into areas no one cares about... while ignoring core game play issues that people actively petition about - only to be ignored. The CCP user base is down by about 40%-50% over 4 years << and here is a clue : THIS IS Your "Bigger Thing(s) To Deal With" CCP can point the finger in any direction they like.... The Bottom Line is: They can't retain legacy users due to things mentioned in this thread.. which will of course... Be: Completely Ignored I agree with you but i'm not sure that CCP is sharing your point of view : maybe they already have agreed to let EVE Online die, that it won't be anymore their main source of money because it's getting old and because it's not casual and mainstream enough. Maybe they are chasing a new illusion with their "Virtual Reality" games. Well, i find the word very adapted to what's happening here. CCP is living in a virtual reality. CCP 2015 : "Fluff is good"
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 413	Posted - 2016.08.05 11:49:18 - [1094] - Quote Tao Dolcino wrote: I agree with you but i'm not sure that CCP is sharing your point of view : maybe they already have agreed to let EVE Online die, that it won't be anymore their main source of money because it's getting old and because it's not casual and mainstream enough. Maybe they are chasing a new illusion with their "Virtual Reality" games. Well, i find the word very adapted to what's happening here. CCP is living in a virtual reality. Actually there was a link posted (by one of the "oh noes EVE is dying people in this thread) a while back - I'm too lazy to go back and pull it up - but it said that even though the total number of subscribers in EVE is down, their costs are also down, and their profits are up. So quite simply this would indicate (to me) that CCP has decided to start making money their bottom line. They are finally running EVE like a large business rather than like a niche game/pet project/fun hobby... Whether they are doing this to fund other projects or merely to line their own pockets is really irrelevant - the point is they are doing whatever they can to increase their profits from EVE at this point. Many have argued whether this is sustainable or not...But based on other games that have made this transition (runescape for example)...there will be a rough patch here as the user-base transitions - but if they can survive the transition (and they seem to be doing pretty well so far all things considered, though the transition is far from completed yet) they will be in a position to set new record highs in profit. So to summarize: EVE is changing, but certainly not dying.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 413	Posted - 2016.08.05 11:57:53 - [1095] - Quote Galaxy Chicken wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: And for the record - yes, I am jealous of CODE. I wish I'd thought of it first... I mean **** - forget people who afk mine to earn isk for PLEX to play for free.....Arbitrarily declaring myself leader of high sec and recruiting a bunch of easily amused drones to farm isk for me, so that I don't even have to log in to earn isk to get PLEX and play for free? That is absolutely brilliant. James 315 truly is a visionary - at least in the running for the absolute best scammer in EVE history. You seem to be confused friend, you see, James 315 sends me money. I spend a little money on my dog too. For food, even toys occasionally. I like it to stay alive. Much more entertaining that way. Dead puppies aren't much fun.
FlipYa The Lezbian Institute Freaks In The Sheets 1	Posted - 2016.08.05 12:27:19 - [1096] - Quote Tao Dolcino wrote: FlipYa wrote: The Bottom Line is: CCP Arrogance. CCP Development is constantly telling them selves: "We've got bigger things to deal with". As other people have said in this thread: CCP is constantly chasing new development into areas no one cares about... while ignoring core game play issues that people actively petition about - only to be ignored. The CCP user base is down by about 40%-50% over 4 years << and here is a clue : THIS IS Your "Bigger Thing(s) To Deal With" CCP can point the finger in any direction they like.... The Bottom Line is: They can't retain legacy users due to things mentioned in this thread.. which will of course... Be: Completely Ignored maybe they already have agreed to let EVE Online die, that it won't be anymore their main source of money because it's getting old I was going to add that to my post too. But I didn't want to go on for too long. And Ya, after a while a business has - Had It's Day - and the smart business thing to do is just ride it until it dies and get what money you can out of it. But then, why all the new development? I've returned to the game to find a lot of cool new stuff. But as I mentioned, core stuff has been totally ignored in favor of the new stuff. So, I think they need to fire some people and save the model which quite obviously IS sustainable or people would not be in this thread. And we are just the ones taking the time to talk about it. Which is not to count the people that just straight up quit because they have given up on CCP - NOT EVE itself
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14385	Posted - 2016.08.05 12:39:57 - [1097] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: That's the usual "average of 1 chicken per person" statistics. Active players who don't live puchasing bunch of PLEXes, end up having to create 3-4 accounts. Can you validate that claim? From CCP Quant's FanFest 2015 presentation: - 175,000 unique users online per day - 420,000 unique users per month https://puu.sh/qqzBG/ffd6502ea9.png (based on 2014 averaged figures). We also know from comments at FanFest in 2014 that there are ~480,000 names on the monument, representing the total subscribed number of accounts (minus inappropriate names) active back in March 2014. ~420,000 active monthly out of ~480,000 subscribed accounts at the time and 2/3rds with only 1 account, which has been a stable figure for a decade. The specific numbers online are lower now, however a simple comparison of your claim against the available information (did you even go and look at CCP Quant's reddit post linked) suggests that your claim is wrong. Is it so hard to try to validate your assumptions before typing something stupid like " game that requires 2 subscriptions is not a fair game" It clearly doesn't require 2 accounts. That's just a dumb statement that isn't supported by the available evidence. Awwwwww, Poor Shae thinks facts and reasoning means anyhting around these parts. Ain't that precious? To answer your question I highlighted above, the answer is yes, it is exactly too hard for many people. You want proof. Here is a place full of proof.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17230	Posted - 2016.08.05 12:48:13 - [1098] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: That's the usual "average of 1 chicken per person" statistics. Active players who don't live puchasing bunch of PLEXes, end up having to create 3-4 accounts. Can you validate that claim? From CCP Quant's FanFest 2015 presentation: - 175,000 unique users online per day - 420,000 unique users per month https://puu.sh/qqzBG/ffd6502ea9.png (based on 2014 averaged figures). We also know from comments at FanFest in 2014 that there are ~480,000 names on the monument, representing the total subscribed number of accounts (minus inappropriate names) active back in March 2014. ~420,000 active monthly out of ~480,000 subscribed accounts at the time and 2/3rds with only 1 account, which has been a stable figure for a decade. The specific numbers online are lower now, however a simple comparison of your claim against the available information (did you even go and look at CCP Quant's reddit post linked) suggests that your claim is wrong. Is it so hard to try to validate your assumptions before typing something stupid like " game that requires 2 subscriptions is not a fair game" It clearly doesn't require 2 accounts. That's just a dumb statement that isn't supported by the available evidence. Hay every one! Look, shes using facts ,statistics and employing research in a reasonable and concise manner. ... GET HER!!! =]\|[=
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14385	Posted - 2016.08.05 12:50:08 - [1099] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: That's the usual "average of 1 chicken per person" statistics. Active players who don't live puchasing bunch of PLEXes, end up having to create 3-4 accounts. Can you validate that claim? From CCP Quant's FanFest 2015 presentation: - 175,000 unique users online per day - 420,000 unique users per month https://puu.sh/qqzBG/ffd6502ea9.png (based on 2014 averaged figures). We also know from comments at FanFest in 2014 that there are ~480,000 names on the monument, representing the total subscribed number of accounts (minus inappropriate names) active back in March 2014. ~420,000 active monthly out of ~480,000 subscribed accounts at the time and 2/3rds with only 1 account, which has been a stable figure for a decade. The specific numbers online are lower now, however a simple comparison of your claim against the available information (did you even go and look at CCP Quant's reddit post linked) suggests that your claim is wrong. Is it so hard to try to validate your assumptions before typing something stupid like " game that requires 2 subscriptions is not a fair game" It clearly doesn't require 2 accounts. That's just a dumb statement that isn't supported by the available evidence. Hay every one! Look, shes using facts ,statistics and employing research in a reasonable and concise manner. ... GET HER!!! Don't worry, I've already called the Icelandic Coast Guard about this situation. Black Helicopters are on the way as we speak.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 413	Posted - 2016.08.05 12:53:56 - [1100] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Don't worry, I've already called the Icelandic Coast Guard about this situation. Black Helicopters are on the way as we speak. Good. We don't want this trend to spread - best to wipe it out at the source.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5077	Posted - 2016.08.05 18:54:06 - [1101] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Were they doing things like not using a scout. Autopiloting? No webber? No escort at all? I recall driving a pair of Fenrirs or escorting (back when I had been a logistics officer in my first 0.0 corp) in low sec / 0.0 depending on my superiors decision about my role for the day. Last supply train we had about 28 freighters / orcas / indis (depending on their owner's capabilities) with perhaps 20 carriers as escort and a number of assorted BS / BCs. Those were the epic times, when EvE was totally worth playing at any cost. However, you can't expect everybody to be as organized, to have a whole 16 hours to run such epic convoys. A game that requires 2 subscriptions is not a fair game. It's offering features that require paying twice as much as advertised just to be able to perform basic tasks like ferrying stuff around. If EvE is meant to be played with a minumum of two accounts, that's OK, but then CCP have to tell this to perspective new players or to let players pay 1 account and play for 2. 1. You don't need 2 accounts. Get friends. 2. If they can't be as organized, then they should not expect similar results. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5077	Posted - 2016.08.05 18:56:54 - [1102] - Quote Tao Dolcino wrote: FlipYa wrote: The Bottom Line is: CCP Arrogance. CCP Development is constantly telling them selves: "We've got bigger things to deal with". As other people have said in this thread: CCP is constantly chasing new development into areas no one cares about... while ignoring core game play issues that people actively petition about - only to be ignored. The CCP user base is down by about 40%-50% over 4 years << and here is a clue : THIS IS Your "Bigger Thing(s) To Deal With" CCP can point the finger in any direction they like.... The Bottom Line is: They can't retain legacy users due to things mentioned in this thread.. which will of course... Be: Completely Ignored I agree with you but i'm not sure that CCP is sharing your point of view : maybe they already have agreed to let EVE Online die, that it won't be anymore their main source of money because it's getting old and because it's not casual and mainstream enough. Maybe they are chasing a new illusion with their "Virtual Reality" games. Well, i find the word very adapted to what's happening here. CCP is living in a virtual reality. Thing is it has been their only success. Everything else that has been released has failed to date. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5742	Posted - 2016.08.05 21:03:35 - [1103] - Quote See, Shae Tadaruwa, bean counting tends to yield to a mono-chrome view of reality. It's better being able to swiftly connect the dots than pin pointing details that pertain to a large number of irrelevant guys who are never going to dent into emerging gameplay. It's also extremely boring to have to slow down and tediously explain concepts that Dirty Forum Alt caught in a second. Dirty Forum Alt wrote: While the game clearly doesn't "require" 2 accounts - and indeed isn't "meant" to be played with 2 accounts - there are menial tasks that are much easier performed with alts than trying to bug your corp-mates into doing them all the time. Scouting/webbing for a freighter, for example, is fine once in a while - but gets old really fast if you get asked to do it all the time and it isn't even your cargo... Also CCP has been really pushing the dual-account and dual training deals the past few years - so while the game may not "require" or be "meant" to be played with 2 characters, CCP would clearly like everyone to be making alts as often as possible edit: Incidentally the number of accounts is no longer a solid indicator of number of alts since multi-character training was introduced - although such alts are admittedly not useful as scouts or active dual-account activities - more for like having a trade alt or an industrial alt or a solo hauling alt/etc - So these alts would still NOT make the game something that requires 2 characters - they just let you play 2 separate EVE characters who can't directly interact, only through contracts/etc. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 427	Posted - 2016.08.05 21:12:55 - [1104] - Quote I wouldn't take it personally - we are 56 pages into the thread here and tensions are a bit high - also a large part of the recent conversation has been about precise language/statistics.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5742	Posted - 2016.08.05 21:18:42 - [1105] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: I recall driving a pair of Fenrirs or escorting (back when I had been a logistics officer in my first 0.0 corp) in low sec / 0.0 depending on my superiors decision about my role for the day. Last supply train we had about 28 freighters / orcas / indis (depending on their owner's capabilities) with perhaps 20 carriers as escort and a number of assorted BS / BCs. Those were the epic times, when EvE was totally worth playing at any cost. However, you can't expect everybody to be as organized, to have a whole 16 hours to run such epic convoys. A game that requires 2 subscriptions is not a fair game. It's offering features that require paying twice as much as advertised just to be able to perform basic tasks like ferrying stuff around. If EvE is meant to be played with a minumum of two accounts, that's OK, but then CCP have to tell this to perspective new players or to let players pay 1 account and play for 2. 1. You don't need 2 accounts. Get friends. 2. If they can't be as organized, then they should not expect similar results. I don't think you got the rethorical aspect of my post. I made an example of a person (myself) who fully understands and lived in first person the point of those who tell "get friends". In fact, my dozens ships 0.0 corp ops shold quite hint at having a good deal of friends. However I can actually walk in somebody else's shoes, so I also understand those who won't get friends. Sadly for me, you, and many others, the latter are increasing over time. See, one soon day we'll get to the point where you won't be able to tell them: "deal with it or leave", because they already chose the "leave". This is an option that is going to hurt you, not them, because if the "old style" EvE players drop to low numbers enough, EvE is going to shut down. It's funny I have seen people accurately looking down bean counting how many players play with 1 or 2 subs and maybe how many of them wear polka dots shirts but the one who took 5 minutes in 2011 to predict (with a chart) EvE's playerbase current trend is me. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5742	Posted - 2016.08.05 21:20:51 - [1106] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: I wouldn't take it personally - we are 56 pages into the thread here and tensions are a bit high - also a large part of the recent conversation has been about precise language/statistics. I have organized and started the 2011 players riots (with half a dozen other valiant guys of course!). I have not even begun to warm up Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5077	Posted - 2016.08.05 22:04:06 - [1107] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: I recall driving a pair of Fenrirs or escorting (back when I had been a logistics officer in my first 0.0 corp) in low sec / 0.0 depending on my superiors decision about my role for the day. Last supply train we had about 28 freighters / orcas / indis (depending on their owner's capabilities) with perhaps 20 carriers as escort and a number of assorted BS / BCs. Those were the epic times, when EvE was totally worth playing at any cost. However, you can't expect everybody to be as organized, to have a whole 16 hours to run such epic convoys. A game that requires 2 subscriptions is not a fair game. It's offering features that require paying twice as much as advertised just to be able to perform basic tasks like ferrying stuff around. If EvE is meant to be played with a minumum of two accounts, that's OK, but then CCP have to tell this to perspective new players or to let players pay 1 account and play for 2. 1. You don't need 2 accounts. Get friends. 2. If they can't be as organized, then they should not expect similar results. I don't think you got the rethorical aspect of my post. I made an example of a person (myself) who fully understands and lived in first person the point of those who tell "get friends". In fact, my dozens ships 0.0 corp ops shold quite hint at having a good deal of friends. However I can wanted to walk in somebody else's shoes, to be able to understand those who won't get friends. Sadly for me, you, and many others, the latter are increasing over time. See, one soon day we'll get to the point where you won't be able to tell them: "deal with it or leave", because they already chose the "leave". This is an option that is going to hurt you, not them, because if the "old style" EvE players drop to low numbers enough, EvE is going to shut down. It's funny I have seen people accurately looking down bean counting how many players play with 1 or 2 subs and maybe how many of them wear polka dots shirts but the one who took 5 minutes in 2011 to predict (with a chart) EvE's playerbase current trend is me. Can you try again, and this time make it coherent? Here, let me show you, Quote: In fact, my dozens ships 0.0 corp ops shold quite hint at having a good deal of friends. That sentence is incoherent. It makes no sense. At all. And I'm talking about the typo. The word "ships" looks like it should not be there. Further, that it should have the word "of" in there somewhere, something like, "In fact, the dozens of 0.0 corp ops I have participated in should hint at having a good deal of friends." But then that raises the question of: Ok, so what? You got friends in game. Don't they help you when you need it? If I need a cyno, a scout, or other help I ask in corp chat, alliance chat, post on the forums, etc. and usually somebody helps me. I can also send out a ping on slack, see who is on TS. I don't have to log in an alt account, and even though I could sometimes my alts are not well placed and under JC timers. Quote: I don't think you got the rethorical aspect of my post. Again, what? That my rhetoric his bad? That when somebody says, "A game that requires 2 or more subs is not fair." And my response is you don't have to get a second account, get a friend....is rhetorically bad? Maybe it is blunt, but FFS I have been seeing this whine so much it is well past being debunked. As for the rest, it just seems a mess. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Dane Ge Operational Urban Zion Order O.U.Z.O. Alliance 3	Posted - 2016.08.05 22:04:06 - [1108] - Quote Doc Fury wrote: There are lots of other games to play, and CCP's latest developments seem to revolve around the further ~~fleecing~~ monetization of existing players, and attracting short-attention-span pay2win types of new players who don't stick around very long and are distracted easily. THIS!!!! As a new player it is really frustrating not be able to earn enough money to keep in PvP ships in a reasonable amount of time without buying Plex. All the suggestions I've gotten on what to do to make isk have turned out to be way too much time spent for too little return. Station trading seems to the one way to make decent money for your time and I dont have the skills or bank yet to set up enough buy/sell orders to make this an option for me. There needs to be an improvement in loot and PvE activities in general in this game
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5078	Posted - 2016.08.05 22:33:00 - [1109] - Quote Dane Ge wrote: Doc Fury wrote: There are lots of other games to play, and CCP's latest developments seem to revolve around the further ~~fleecing~~ monetization of existing players, and attracting short-attention-span pay2win types of new players who don't stick around very long and are distracted easily. THIS!!!! As a new player it is really frustrating not be able to earn enough money to keep in PvP ships in a reasonable amount of time without buying Plex. All the suggestions I've gotten on what to do to make isk have turned out to be way too much time spent for too little return. Station trading seems to the one way to make decent money for your time and I dont have the skills or bank yet to set up enough buy/sell orders to make this an option for me. There needs to be an improvement in loot and PvE activities in general in this game Yep, making ISK early on is a struggle if you are going to stick with some of the more obvious approaches that CCP gives you right off the bat like mining or missions. Once you get skilled enough you can make decent ISK, but again that means time or money for injectors. Even some of the methods you can get into somewhat early on like Planetary Interaction are not high on the fun scale and would mean delaying training other "fun skills" longer. Some additional options are: 1. Find a new player friendly corp/alliance that will help with ship costs. 2. Scamming. 3. Corp thefts (get into a corp and rob them blind). In Eve you do not grind for XP/the next level, that happens with time, instead we grind for ISK, and early on it can suck. I myself started with a GTC (Game Time Card which was for 60 days) as my starting capital and went from there. The things I did are no longer a good source of income (the DED sites in Gallente space would drop nice modules that sold for a nice amount of ISK, now they are worth next a fraction of their old value). Eventually I moved on to invention and planetary interaction. Station trading is supposedly good ISK, but part of the problem is that it is also boring, at least IMO. Also, look at EVE New Citizen Q&A Via google I found a number of threads on how to make ISK, but some were rather dated. If you do post there, be sure to note you did look at older threads, but they are older and you don't know if their recommendations are still valid. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Jasmine Deer Perkone Caldari State 23	Posted - 2016.08.05 23:02:56 - [1110] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: I wouldn't take it personally - we are 56 pages into the thread here and tensions are a bit high - also a large part of the recent conversation has been about precise language/statistics. We could save a lot of reading using a section from one of of your previous posts in this thread as a style guide. Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Since you probably can't understand all those big words, let me simplify it for you: You = Right. You = Bad @ Gank for $$$ But You = OK because CODE. = Reasons Yay You Since a lot of posts can be distilled down to - My opinion = Objective, Absolute Truth Your opinion I disagree with = Idiotic, Ignorant rubbish You = A****** Me > You my.Stuff += your.Stuff ?
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 717	Posted - 2016.08.06 01:30:47 - [1111] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: See, Shae Tadaruwa, bean counting tends to yield to a mono-chrome view of reality. Reality none the less. Much better than just making up 'facts' on a belief they are true because they happen to agree with what I think. Your claim that Eve requires more than one account is clearly not the reality at all, no matter how much you try to dismiss the evidence that is available. Certain activities are best performed with multiple characters. Actually, almost every activity I can think of in the game is better with alts. That is not the same as a claim that the game requires more than one account. Most of the players (and those of us on the forum are the very special nerds that probably have a higher percentage of multiple accounts - though that is just an opinion. I can't validate that view).
Warrior AgainstEvil Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 33	Posted - 2016.08.06 02:18:40 - [1112] - Quote It's because of evil plain and simple. The evil has been allowed to fester in this game for far too long and something must be done to combat this retched stink that fills the air and lets lose upon the good citizens of this galaxy. Too many ganker scum and terrible people ruin the game for everyone and this must be stopped or else it will get worse only. Now that the bees of evil have been extinguished by another evil force there is less evil and so things are better now. Less evil is better and that makes me happy. But more work is to be done to fight the badness in the game and we need more people to put together the team to do that. Evil is bad, we want to play the game without bad people attacking us for no reason so we can play the game in pea
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 570	Posted - 2016.08.06 02:30:48 - [1113] - Quote thank you for that- made my day again Keep 'em coming!
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5744	Posted - 2016.08.06 02:46:04 - [1114] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Can you try again, and this time make it coherent? Here, let me show you, Quote: In fact, my dozens ships 0.0 corp ops shold quite hint at having a good deal of friends. That sentence is incoherent. It makes no sense. At all. And I'm talking about the typo. The word "ships" looks like it should not be there. Further, that it should have the word "of" in there somewhere, something like, "In fact, the dozens of 0.0 corp ops I have participated in should hint at having a good deal of friends." But then that raises the question of: Ok, so what? You got friends in game. Don't they help you when you need it? If I need a cyno, a scout, or other help I ask in corp chat, alliance chat, post on the forums, etc. and usually somebody helps me. I can also send out a ping on slack, see who is on TS. I don't have to log in an alt account, and even though I could sometimes my alts are not well placed and under JC timers. Quote: I don't think you got the rethorical aspect of my post. Again, what? That my rhetoric his bad? That when somebody says, "A game that requires 2 or more subs is not fair." And my response is you don't have to get a second account, get a friend....is rhetorically bad? Maybe it is blunt, but FFS I have been seeing this whine so much it is well past being debunked. As for the rest, it just seems a mess. Let me rephrase it. 1) I am NOT talking about the 2 subs issue out of my interest, as I had time and again used to fly in large fleets. The situation does not apply to me. Since it does not apply to me, I have no bias when I talk about what I believe is EvE's interest. 2) I made the effort of impersonating a 1 account guy, to walk in his shoes, and how he gets annoyed when he finds two+ accounts are really the most obvious way to play the game. EvE does not advertise two accounts play, however you are kind of much better if you do that. And this is borderline business ethic imo. 3) I have read other posts, which tell this funny thing: "make friends" as the one-size-fits-all solution. REALLY? I have played in multiple corps from every sec and size, for years. A common trait is that even friends get quickly tired when you ask them for the 114th web or scouting jump for that day. After a bit, they really let you "get" the fact they'd rather do something more fun than playing little scout for you and how you should get a 2nd account like everybody (decent) else. If you manage to know people who are so selfless to keep playing the most boring roles every day, for months, then please let me meet them, I could always use some masochists. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 327	Posted - 2016.08.06 02:50:56 - [1115] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: If you manage to know people who are so selfless to keep playing the most boring roles every day, for months, then please let me meet them, I could always use some masochists. Have kids. :) --Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5744	Posted - 2016.08.06 03:07:54 - [1116] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: See, Shae Tadaruwa, bean counting tends to yield to a mono-chrome view of reality. Reality none the less. Much better than just making up 'facts' on a belief they are true because they conveniently happen to agree with what I think. I am sorry, sometimes closely and accurately watching your finger does not lead to the same distance where raising the eyes and looking at the moon does. Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Your claim that Eve requires more than one account is clearly not the reality at all, no matter how much you try to dismiss the evidence that is available. Certain activities are best performed with multiple characters. Actually, I can't think of an activity in game that is made worse with the support of alts and everything I can think of in the game is improved with that support. That is not the same as a claim that the game requires more than one account. Most of the players in the game don't play that way (and those of us on the forum are the very special nerds that probably have a higher percentage of multiple accounts - though that is just an opinion. I can't validate that view). I don't say EvE requires. I say, unless you are a mediocre random with no plans, nor ambitions (and I DO agree many, many are like that, hence the fallacy in statistics), then you are much better playing with 2+ accounts. When I played with my 0.0 mates I had: - 1 x 0.0, 100% pure PvP pilot. - 2 x logistics pilots (scout + JF guy) - 2 x hi sec L4 PvE pilots, with ultra-DPS fitted ships. () - 1 x hi sec L4 salvage ship pilot, always close to the PvE guy(s) - became optional after salvage nerf - 4 x trade alts - 4+ science alts, some times I had more because I had more than 1 P.O.S. - 2+ industry alts - 2+ mining alts for when I had to be AFK, they'd joined others above to form Orca + (optional Freighter) + 4 mining ships. and I was just above AVERAGE*. Most top officers and higher ranks had more than me. All of this despite my smallest corp had 30 people online and the largest had 120+ and was part of a well accomplished 0.0 alliance. That amount of pilots would let me enjoy EvE at optimal progress rate. So, sure... keep playing with 1 account, you are going to compete vs people like me or above. No surprise 10 years later I am still here and the 1 account guy got replaced by some other dummy 100 times in a never ending turnover of vanilla players. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5744	Posted - 2016.08.06 03:09:19 - [1117] - Quote Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: If you manage to know people who are so selfless to keep playing the most boring roles every day, for months, then please let me meet them, I could always use some masochists. Have kids. :) --Gadget I love your attitude Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 717	Posted - 2016.08.06 04:20:41 - [1118] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: I don't say EvE requires. ho hum... Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: A game that requires 2 subscriptions is not a fair game. Just on the previous page, talking about Eve: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6587148#post6587148
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5078	Posted - 2016.08.06 04:44:19 - [1119] - Quote Jasmine Deer wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: I wouldn't take it personally - we are 56 pages into the thread here and tensions are a bit high - also a large part of the recent conversation has been about precise language/statistics. We could save a lot of reading using a section from one of of your previous posts in this thread as a style guide. Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Since you probably can't understand all those big words, let me simplify it for you: You = Right. You = Bad @ Gank for $$$ But You = OK because CODE. = Reasons Yay You Since a lot of posts can be distilled down to - My opinion = Objective, Absolute Truth Your opinion I disagree with = Idiotic, Ignorant rubbish You = A****** Me > You my.Stuff += your.Stuff ? So we should all talk like Master from Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome? Embargo on! "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 90	Posted - 2016.08.06 04:45:47 - [1120] - Quote Eve developers don't advertise multiple account but they welcome them even when writing on forums. The way the game is programmed and the chars are created and trained strongly encourage multiple accounts, only a blind would say the contrary.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5080	Posted - 2016.08.06 04:56:11 - [1121] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Let me rephrase it. 1) I am NOT talking about the 2 subs issue out of my interest, as I had time and again used to fly in large fleets. The situation does not apply to me. Since it does not apply to me, I have no bias when I talk about what I believe is EvE's interest. It makes it less likely you have a bias on that issue. Quote: 2) I made the effort of impersonating a 1 account guy, to walk in his shoes, and how he gets annoyed when he finds two+ accounts are really the most obvious way to play the game. EvE does not advertise two accounts play, however you are kind of much better if you do that. And this is borderline business ethic imo. If you do not want to trouble yourself with the costs of having buddies in game, then yeah, having an alt might make sense. Everything is a trade off. People have to make these decisions for themselves. Quote: 3) I have read other posts, which tell this funny thing: "make friends" as the one-size-fits-all solution. REALLY? I have played in multiple corps from every sec and size, for years. A common trait is that even friends get quickly tired when you ask them for the 114th web or scouting jump for that day. After a bit, they really let you "get" the fact they'd rather do something more fun than playing little scout for you and how you should get a 2nd account like everybody (decent) else. Maybe you should toss them some ISK or some other benefit for their troubles. Maybe it is your own selfishness that is the problem. Or get a larger group of buddies so you aren't boring the same guy to death. Seriously stop treating your in game friends like pieces of ****. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5747	Posted - 2016.08.06 07:40:41 - [1122] - Quote Here, another person who took all of 2 minutes to get my talk. Lucy Lollipops wrote: Eve developers don't advertise multiple account but they welcome them even when writing on forums. The way the game is programmed and the chars are created and trained strongly encourage multiple accounts, only a blind would say the contrary. On the other side, another person who does not take it when somebody plays the voice in somebody else's shoes. In order to understand why people does this or that (including EvE subscriptions decisions), you HAVE to be able to enter their mind and see what they'd say. A guy who's at the rock bottom is going to say "requires", because in his point of view this is what it is. I dutifully report what he thinks, which is not necessarily what I think. Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: I don't say EvE requires. ho hum... Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: A game that requires 2 subscriptions is not a fair game. Just on the previous page, talking about Eve: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6587148#post6587148 Followed not long after by the whole chicken stats comment, with the implication that a large percent of active players have more than 1 account. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5747	Posted - 2016.08.06 07:42:09 - [1123] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Let me rephrase it. 1) I am NOT talking about the 2 subs issue out of my interest, as I had time and again used to fly in large fleets. The situation does not apply to me. Since it does not apply to me, I have no bias when I talk about what I believe is EvE's interest. It makes it less likely you have a bias on that issue. Quote: 2) I made the effort of impersonating a 1 account guy, to walk in his shoes, and how he gets annoyed when he finds two+ accounts are really the most obvious way to play the game. EvE does not advertise two accounts play, however you are kind of much better if you do that. And this is borderline business ethic imo. If you do not want to trouble yourself with the costs of having buddies in game, then yeah, having an alt might make sense. Everything is a trade off. People have to make these decisions for themselves. Quote: 3) I have read other posts, which tell this funny thing: "make friends" as the one-size-fits-all solution. REALLY? I have played in multiple corps from every sec and size, for years. A common trait is that even friends get quickly tired when you ask them for the 114th web or scouting jump for that day. After a bit, they really let you "get" the fact they'd rather do something more fun than playing little scout for you and how you should get a 2nd account like everybody (decent) else. Maybe you should toss them some ISK or some other benefit for their troubles. Maybe it is your own selfishness that is the problem. Or get a larger group of buddies so you aren't boring the same guy to death. Seriously stop treating your in game friends like pieces of ****. Most of them are extremely rich, ISK is not going to do anything. One of them kept purchasing and reselling 2003 PvP characters and used a Caldary State Issue for PvP! Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 31729	Posted - 2016.08.06 08:10:24 - [1124] - Quote I don't use two accounts. Having friends in an MMO helps. Having the wrong friends isn't an issue with the people, but with whom you like to hang out. Or maybe you just believe they are there to help you, which means they're not friends but your tools. It's not actually a requirement, more of a help for those who don't know how else to approach certain issues. Blaming the developers for the social shortcomings of the players is a really silly thing to do. Many people are selfish and isolate themselves, because they suck as human beings. Maybe one should first give support to receive support. I WANNA I WANNA is a childish attitude. I like text based pyramids. That's all. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
xxxTRUSTxxx Galactic Rangers EVEolution. 468	Posted - 2016.08.06 09:27:40 - [1125] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: some are forgetting their place in all of this, if you are a client (us) you take part, if you are the producer (CCP) you provide the area for the clients (us) to take part. when you feel you want to take more a dev role and feel you have what it takes to be a part of the team that brings us EVE then hey, stick an application into CCP and i'm sure they'll interview you and then it's all up to you. until then stfu and play. Some years ago I got interested in that. Having to go live in Iceland and a super-low wage really convinced me to develop software for others. well that's a shame, but you did make your mind up and not go work for them. so as a dev you must understand the difference in roles of a dev and a player. we don't show up to see a movie then demand changes to the story when we are not happy,, oh hang on,,, feck this age of entitlement, people need to know their place and role in it all don't get me wrong feed back is a good thing, but this feeling of entitlement because you pay a sub is a laugh. when you go clubing, if ya don't like the club ya move along, go see the manager of the club and make them demands for change,,, lol see how that goes for ya.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 718	Posted - 2016.08.06 10:16:13 - [1126] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: In order to understand why people does this or that (including EvE subscriptions decisions), you HAVE to be able to enter their mind and see what they'd say. A guy who's at the rock bottom is going to say "requires", because in his point of view this is what it is. I dutifully report what he thinks, which is not necessarily what I think. And then right back to my original question to you: Can you validate your claim? The evidence doesn't support the **** you are spinning.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5747	Posted - 2016.08.06 10:24:31 - [1127] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: I don't use two accounts. Having friends in an MMO helps. Having the wrong friends isn't an issue with the people, but with whom you like to hang out. Or maybe you just believe they are there to help you, which means they're not friends but your tools. It's not actually a requirement, more of a help for those who don't know how else to approach certain issues. Blaming the developers for the social shortcomings of the players is a really silly thing to do. Many people are selfish and isolate themselves, because they suck as human beings. Maybe one should first give support to receive support. I WANNA I WANNA is a childish attitude. I like text based pyramids. That's all. xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: well that's a shame, but you did make your mind up and not go work for them. so as a dev you must understand the difference in roles of a dev and a player. we don't show up to see a movie then demand changes to the story when we are not happy,, oh hang on,,, feck this age of entitlement, people need to know their place and role in it all I am really sorry, I seem unable to convey the appropriate context for the matter at hand. I am the first to have had loads of friends (and less than friends ) in EvE. I have been guild leader of some 160 strong hard core guild in another MMO and officer in a 200+ members corp in EvE, I am really FINE with team play. You don't have to convince ME how having friends is good or why someone should "stfu and adapt" and similar. You have to put in the effort to understand (I am not saying "justify") and profile why others do like they do. Because they are the majority now, you can't sweep this dust under the rug forever. Who we are talking about here, is a very widespread kind of EvE (and other MMOs, really) players with very clear traits: - loner - their best breed pays 2 subs exactly to be as self sufficient and as loner as they want - no ambitions, no grand plans, no emergent mindset at all - very self-centered, loves menial, repeating tasks and "dailies" - wants to "just be left in peace" - typical activities he does, are short missions, mining (possibily during work lunch pause) - gives up at the first serious signs of trouble / difficulty / challenge He's the IDEAL CITIZEN OF OUR XXI century era, the guy politicians around the world worked so hard to obtain: a rather quiet, huge, obtuse mass of very harmless sheep. They are so many, a famous MMOs managed to raise and peak at 13M subscriptions because it was made for them. Now, what happens to this mass of guys when they face any of the many EvE challenges? They are loners, won't have friends to call for help. They are helpless. They can probably take 1 wardec / gank or so. Repeat it twice or 3 times and: - their few "elite" are going to take enough strength of will to post a GD thread about unfair ganking. - all the others just quit EvE, nobody will ever notice they existed or they are gone. Now, why should you, oh my honorable forum warriors, care about all of this? You should care, because like it or not, this kind of profile is common, damn common in every MMO. It's so common, you are going to hurt the bottom line when enough of them quit. What happened in the past: - steady players turnover, no sci-fi game alternative, CCP made attractive expansions, often with nice videos: a combo those low profile players love. Some of them would quit when the new expansion turned "old", others would quit because of ganks / scams / whatever. What happens now: - fickle and unpredictable players turnover (world depression did not help), 3+ sci-fi game alternatives (one of which, a MMO, keeps spamming ads, something CCP stopped doing). CCP stopped advertising anything but PLEX sales (PLEX per se does not convey any epic space themed feeling tbh), stopped making frequent videos and stopped delivering expansions. Sure, continuous improvement is good and all, but we are talking about a precise player base profile, people who need to see the flashy new gadget / carrot to buy. With this scenario, many of them just don't sub to begin with, EvE does not blaze in any more. Others quit because of ganks / scams / whatever. With the fickle turnover, EvE finds harder and harder to refill the depleting ranks of those bad yet so abundant players. Now, go on and keep repeating how having friends is a must, to stfu and adapt etc. etc. You are exclusively talking over yourselves with ZERO impact, because those who are involved in this playerbase decline won't even read the forums before they go. xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: well that's a shame, but you did make your mind up and not go work for them. so as a dev you must understand the difference in roles of a dev and a player. A dev has to understand what drives his customer base, otherwise he quickly becomes and unemployed developer. That's why I am trying so hard to analyze the issue at hand. Bold calls, naming and shaming, repeating this and that are THE right and LEGIT way to play (wasn't EvE a sandbox where people can decide their own way to play?) is not going to bring back a single quitter. Not a single one. Only analyzing why they quit and creating some sort of way to attract them back is going to keep CCP's economy healthy. That's what a (small, big ones have analysts for this) developer does: understand his customer base. HE has to adapt to the ever-changing market, not vice versa. Who pretends to be better or smarter than the market is a fool and shall go bankrupt. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 31742	Posted - 2016.08.06 10:26:43 - [1128] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: In order to understand why people does this or that (including EvE subscriptions decisions), you HAVE to be able to enter their mind and see what they'd say. A guy who's at the rock bottom is going to say "requires", because in his point of view this is what it is. I dutifully report what he thinks, which is not necessarily what I think. And then right back to my original question to you: Can you validate your claim? The evidence doesn't support the **** you are spinning. I believe what VV is trying to communicate is that ... ... someone who is unable to deal with his issues ... ... will be unable to analyse the situation ... ... and come to the wrong conclusion that it is not him who is causing the issue in the first place. In his mind he does no wrong. Many people do not think and not blame themselves. They tend to mindlessly react without deeper thought. In his mind thus he literally requires certain things to solve the issue, because he is unable to realize or think of a different perspective. She's not wrong, it's just badly communicated. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5748	Posted - 2016.08.06 10:34:11 - [1129] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: In order to understand why people does this or that (including EvE subscriptions decisions), you HAVE to be able to enter their mind and see what they'd say. A guy who's at the rock bottom is going to say "requires", because in his point of view this is what it is. I dutifully report what he thinks, which is not necessarily what I think. And then right back to my original question to you: Can you validate your claim? The evidence doesn't support the **** you are spinning. I believe what VV is trying to communicate is that ... ... someone who is unable to deal with his issues ... ... will be unable to analyse the situation ... ... and come to the wrong conclusion that it is not him who is causing the issue in the first place. In his mind he does no wrong. Many people do not think and not blame themselves. They tend to mindlessly react without deeper thought. In his mind thus he literally requires certain things to solve the issue, because he is unable to realize or think of a different perspective. She's not wrong, it's just badly communicated. Yeah, I hope I have explained it very well in the post above. Sadly, English is my 4th language and nobody teached it at school back at the time. I had to self learn it, with some creepy results Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 31743	Posted - 2016.08.06 10:46:41 - [1130] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Solecist Project wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: In order to understand why people does this or that (including EvE subscriptions decisions), you HAVE to be able to enter their mind and see what they'd say. A guy who's at the rock bottom is going to say "requires", because in his point of view this is what it is. I dutifully report what he thinks, which is not necessarily what I think. And then right back to my original question to you: Can you validate your claim? The evidence doesn't support the **** you are spinning. I believe what VV is trying to communicate is that ... ... someone who is unable to deal with his issues ... ... will be unable to analyse the situation ... ... and come to the wrong conclusion that it is not him who is causing the issue in the first place. In his mind he does no wrong. Many people do not think and not blame themselves. They tend to mindlessly react without deeper thought. In his mind thus he literally requires certain things to solve the issue, because he is unable to realize or think of a different perspective. She's not wrong, it's just badly communicated. Yeah, I hope I have explained it very well in the post above. Sadly, English is my 4th language and nobody teached it at school back at the time. I had to self learn it, with some creepy results I can be hired as secretary. ;) "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Beta Maoye 121	Posted - 2016.08.06 19:22:37 - [1131] - Quote Eve has many emerging competitors that are taking players away. Eve game mechanic is getting old and familiar to players. Other games offer similar experience too. Fixing old issues cannot give the game edge over other competitors. Unless Eve can offer truly innovative features to identify itself, it will be getting more difficult to compete for the same set of players against other new games that offer similar features and more.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5081	Posted - 2016.08.06 20:16:14 - [1132] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: In order to understand why people does this or that (including EvE subscriptions decisions), you HAVE to be able to enter their mind and see what they'd say. A guy who's at the rock bottom is going to say "requires", because in his point of view this is what it is. I dutifully report what he thinks, which is not necessarily what I think. And then right back to my original question to you: Can you validate your claim? The evidence doesn't support the **** you are spinning. More than that, it requires mind reading, which just ain't possible. Look, if you are pestering the same guy repeatedly for webbing/scouting help then you are kind of abusing that relationship. Stop it. Blaming the game is just silly, IMO. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17279	Posted - 2016.08.06 20:24:36 - [1133] - Quote Beta Maoye wrote: Eve has many emerging competitors that are taking players away. Eve game mechanic is getting old and familiar to players. Other games offer similar experience too. Fixing old issues cannot give the game edge over other competitors. Unless Eve can offer truly innovative features to identify itself, it will be getting more difficult to compete for the same set of players against other new games that offer similar features and more. Eve has truly innovative features that identify it, the bears never cease complaining about them. =]\|[=
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 87	Posted - 2016.08.06 20:54:35 - [1134] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: A dev has to understand what drives his customer base, otherwise he quickly becomes and unemployed developer. That's why I am trying so hard to analyze the issue at hand. What you describe is not EVE's customer base. What you describe is every other MMO's customer base. They are different, why do we need to make them the same?
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 31803	Posted - 2016.08.06 20:59:26 - [1135] - Quote Beta Maoye wrote: Eve has many emerging competitors that are taking players away. Eve game mechanic is getting old and familiar to players. Other games offer similar experience too. Fixing old issues cannot give the game edge over other competitors. Unless Eve can offer truly innovative features to identify itself, it will be getting more difficult to compete for the same set of players against other new games that offer similar features and more. Okay so let's break this apart. .) Eve has many emerging competitors. No. There isn't a single thing out there or coming that's competing with the only continously evolving ... ... 13 years old ... ... single shard gaming universe. For a game to compete with EVE it would have to grow like EVE. Organically. There is no company out there that's both willing (!) and able to do this, because it would demand slow growth and low population count! The simple reason is that if you drop thousand, or tens of thousands of players ... ... into a virtual universe like ours (but empty) ... ... people will complain ... ... because there's no society or organization ... ... and barely any social structures. Why? Because you can't drop several tens of thousands ... ... or even hundreds of thousands of people ... ... into a single universe and have it work out. People like Goons or Dreddit would dominate such game from the start. And if it's not fully PvP based (not combat, but designwise) it will lack the realism to compete anyway. .) Eve game mechanic is getting old and familiar to players. Other games offer similar experience too. All factually incorrect as proven by dozens of devblogs and the lack of a game comparable to EVE. Provide proof with your words! .) Unless Eve can offer truly innovative features to identify itself, it will be getting more difficult to compete for the same set of players against other new games that offer similar features and more. This sounds a bit like you heard it from a youtuber, considering the rest of your post. The modern gamer type, who would have a hard time beating 80s computer games. Reddit brought us lots of them. Brave Newbies first, KarmaFleet worst. CCP already gives them what they want and luckily it's relatively uninterrupting for the rest of the game. No one ever seems to consider how gigantically different things would have turned out ... ... if they all had settled in highsec instead. I miss Tippia. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17281	Posted - 2016.08.06 21:05:18 - [1136] - Quote Me too, the frozen corpse is great but its somewhat ...cold. =]\|[=
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 446	Posted - 2016.08.06 21:12:06 - [1137] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Me too, the frozen corpse is great but its somewhat ...cold. Throw it in the microwave?
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17284	Posted - 2016.08.06 21:23:09 - [1138] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Me too, the frozen corpse is great but its somewhat ...cold. Throw it in the microwave? If were going down that road , roasting it would be the way to go wouldnt you think? That said its hardly going to keep after, Its a tippia corpse, its one of my most precious things along side my aue corpse. =]\|[=
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26546	Posted - 2016.08.06 21:27:32 - [1139] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: who would have a hard time beating 80s computer games. Can you imagine the rage if we sat them down with a copy of Jet Set Willy or something similar where there are no save games and you start from scratch every time you play? Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 31805	Posted - 2016.08.06 21:43:02 - [1140] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Solecist Project wrote: who would have a hard time beating 80s computer games. Can you imagine the rage if we sat them down with a copy of Jet Set Willy or something similar where there are no save games and you start from scratch every time you play? Jet Set Willy - Commodore 64 gameplay: http://youtu.be/L4-wU7ugOjI Or DareDevil Dennis. http://youtu.be/0PtT1gGsroA The frustration starts AFTER the initial running sequence. And one of my favourites, the chinese juggler! http://youtu.be/Y6KVJLanSdo "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 571	Posted - 2016.08.06 22:58:26 - [1141] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: For a game to compete with EVE it would have to grow like EVE. Organically. There is no company out there that's both willing (!) and able to do this, because it would demand slow growth and low population count! ^^^ THIS. New Eden is a work of art in motion. It is shaped by its inhabitants; the lore revolves around such factions as Ushra'Khan, provibloc, Band of Brothers, the Goonswarm, TEST, ..... I've never met LShock and I don't know if he still plays - yet he still lives on in song. There's still propaganda for slumbering (dead?) alliances out there. The factions in our universe, its rich and colourful history is perhaps its most important defining feature. Right there. Could have just +1'ed but no empty quoting ;-)
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 31808	Posted - 2016.08.06 23:33:52 - [1142] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Solecist Project wrote: For a game to compete with EVE it would have to grow like EVE. Organically. There is no company out there that's both willing (!) and able to do this, because it would demand slow growth and low population count! ^^^ THIS. New Eden is a work of art in motion. It is shaped by its inhabitants; the lore revolves around such factions as Ushra'Khan, provibloc, Band of Brothers, the Goonswarm, TEST, ..... I've never met LShock and I don't know if he still plays - yet he still lives on in song. There's still propaganda for slumbering (dead?) alliances out there. The factions in our universe, its rich and colourful history is perhaps its most important defining feature. Right there. Could have just +1'ed but no empty quoting ;-) Wittgenstein! Interesting!] "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 571	Posted - 2016.08.06 23:39:14 - [1143] - Quote CRAP busted
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5754	Posted - 2016.08.07 00:52:04 - [1144] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: A dev has to understand what drives his customer base, otherwise he quickly becomes and unemployed developer. That's why I am trying so hard to analyze the issue at hand. What you describe is not EVE's customer base. What you describe is every other MMO's customer base. They are different, why do we need to make them the same? Since at least 6-7 years ago, EvE's customer base demographics have somewhat changed. EvE used to have a more or less specific, dedicated playerbase. The one "we want". The "guys who got it". Yay for them. However this dedicated playerbase is slowly declining due to many factors it's useless to repeat for the 110th time. Those are the emergent guys, they give a direction to the game, etc. etc. Then, we got a second chunk of playerbase. Those guys are a general MMO playerbase, they could play EvE or any other MMO, they aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer, they reflect the traits I have explained in a previous post. They were attracted in the past by EvE's videos, lore, industry (I know several friends who only joined EvE because they got told how good is EvE's "crafting"), shiny expansions and much more. Now, you can scoff at this second kind of players, at their mediocre lives, at their lack of social skills and blah blah, but here's the catch: they are now a sizable portion of those who provide CCP a bottom line. The issues come when the "dedicated" playerbase keeps slowly shrinking (RL, age, whatever reason for turnover) and at the same time the second does the same. EvE is not the 5k concurrent players MMO of old. It got top notch, expensive hardware infrastructures, lots of developers, multiple offices... it cannot survive only on dedicated players alone. Therefore you have to do something to keep those "second class citizens" who silently keep the EvE boat afloat. What exactly, I don't know. I have no insight in the true numbers: not those CCP post around to make virtual bean counters happy. I mean the real numbers. But whatever are the stats, EvE's playerbase is not monolythic any more like it used to be. It's years we have got those pesky "casuals" or whatever derogatory term we could stick onto them. The first step at solving a problem, is to rationalize and accept it exists. As long as we'll have people who just won't accept times are changing and that the "old, golden times" are over, EvE is going to decline a bit every year. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Divine Entervention Bridge Four 842	Posted - 2016.08.07 00:54:32 - [1145] - Quote Every year brings more games. There are less people playing the game this year (indisputable fact which will only be denied by people who are of the most imbecilic) because just like every year thus far, more and more games are being released. This never ending deluge of games results in a constant fracturing and splitting of "gamers". Back when this was one of few, it was crowded. Now that it is one of many, it is spatial.
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 31811	Posted - 2016.08.07 01:21:01 - [1146] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: A dev has to understand what drives his customer base, otherwise he quickly becomes and unemployed developer. That's why I am trying so hard to analyze the issue at hand. What you describe is not EVE's customer base. What you describe is every other MMO's customer base. They are different, why do we need to make them the same? Since at least 6-7 years ago, EvE's customer base demographics have somewhat changed. EvE used to have a more or less specific, dedicated playerbase. The one "we want". The "guys who got it". Yay for them. However this dedicated playerbase is slowly declining due to many factors it's useless to repeat for the 110th time. Those are the emergent guys, they give a direction to the game, etc. etc. Then, we got a second chunk of playerbase. Those guys are a general MMO playerbase, they could play EvE or any other MMO, they aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer, they reflect the traits I have explained in a previous post. They were attracted in the past by EvE's videos, lore, industry (I know several friends who only joined EvE because they got told how good is EvE's "crafting"), shiny expansions and much more. Now, you can scoff at this second kind of players, at their mediocre lives, at their lack of social skills and blah blah, but here's the catch: they are now a sizable portion of those who provide CCP a bottom line. The issues come when the "dedicated" playerbase keeps slowly shrinking (RL, age, whatever reason for turnover) and at the same time the second does the same. EvE is not the 5k concurrent players MMO of old. It got top notch, expensive hardware infrastructures, lots of developers, multiple offices... it cannot survive only on dedicated players alone. Therefore you have to do something to keep those "second class citizens" who silently keep the EvE boat afloat. What exactly, I don't know. I have no insight in the true numbers: not those CCP post around to make virtual bean counters happy. I mean the real numbers. But whatever are the stats, EvE's playerbase is not monolythic any more like it used to be. It's years we have got those pesky "casuals" or whatever derogatory term we could stick onto them. The first step at solving a problem, is to rationalize and accept it exists. As long as we'll have people who just won't accept times are changing and that the "old, golden times" are over, EvE is going to decline a bit every year. We are slowly being replaced by dumb people who are easily controlled through entertainment. That's heavy. It's just like in the real world. Crowd Control productions, heh ... NullSec is a game of strategies and politics. Big powerblocks amass hundreds and thousands of carebears who love nothing more than carebearing in safety and occasionally hiding in a fleet, pressing f1. It's paid anyway and they benefit from the symbiosis massively. These people are - if i may take reddit's influence into account - easy minded. And if they don't carebear they wait for the next ping to happen. Bread & Circus. I don't mind CCPs nullcentric orientation. It makes sense, because all these thousands of people all still act in a pretty predictable manner. What bothers me is that highsec as a whole is being neglected and that new players are not presented with a general perspective on the game. Worse, there are griefers out there actively encouraging to stay safe, mine and carebear. But the real issue is that no one of those who still "get it" care enough to actually attempt to influence the process. They just do the predictable. Feel helpless and quit or believe that it should not be in their hands to change the situation. The whole mess in highsec is ripe for a major disruption, because it's beyond fixable. Edit: i got a bit carried away. Sorry. :3 "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Beta Maoye 122	Posted - 2016.08.07 02:50:53 - [1147] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Beta Maoye wrote: Eve has many emerging competitors that are taking players away. Eve game mechanic is getting old and familiar to players. Other games offer similar experience too. Fixing old issues cannot give the game edge over other competitors. Unless Eve can offer truly innovative features to identify itself, it will be getting more difficult to compete for the same set of players against other new games that offer similar features and more. Eve has truly innovative features that identify it, the bears never cease complaining about them. The game was truly an amazingly innovative mmo a decade ago, but the edge has not much left now. Look, the reality is number of online players are declining. MMO is all about connection between players. If the down tredning of population continues and passes a certain threshold, it might trigger a death spiral effect. One way or another, they have to stop the bleeding. Cherishing the memory of good old days cannot solve the problem.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5081	Posted - 2016.08.07 03:56:43 - [1148] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Beta Maoye wrote: Eve has many emerging competitors that are taking players away. Eve game mechanic is getting old and familiar to players. Other games offer similar experience too. Fixing old issues cannot give the game edge over other competitors. Unless Eve can offer truly innovative features to identify itself, it will be getting more difficult to compete for the same set of players against other new games that offer similar features and more. Eve has truly innovative features that identify it, the bears never cease complaining about them. Exactly. CODE. Eve Uni. Anti-Ganking. RvB. Coaltions. Rental Empires. Hulkaggedon, Burn Jita/Amarr events. Ice Interdictions. OTEC. B0TLORD. Are some of the more well known examples of spontaneous order that you can find in EVE and would be hard pressed to find in other games. All of these are driven by players, not CCP. Sure CCP gave us the environment (that pool full of water), but the players organized a game within that environment. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5081	Posted - 2016.08.07 03:57:38 - [1149] - Quote Beta Maoye wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Beta Maoye wrote: Eve has many emerging competitors that are taking players away. Eve game mechanic is getting old and familiar to players. Other games offer similar experience too. Fixing old issues cannot give the game edge over other competitors. Unless Eve can offer truly innovative features to identify itself, it will be getting more difficult to compete for the same set of players against other new games that offer similar features and more. Eve has truly innovative features that identify it, the bears never cease complaining about them. The game was truly an amazingly innovative mmo a decade ago, but the edge has not much left now. Look, the reality is number of online players are declining. MMO is all about connection between players. If the down tredning of population continues and passes a certain threshold, it might trigger a death spiral effect. One way or another, they have to stop the bleeding. Cherishing the memory of good old days cannot solve the problem. No. The source of innovation are players. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7874	Posted - 2016.08.07 04:10:45 - [1150] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: A dev has to understand what drives his customer base, otherwise he quickly becomes and unemployed developer. That's why I am trying so hard to analyze the issue at hand. What you describe is not EVE's customer base. What you describe is every other MMO's customer base. They are different, why do we need to make them the same? Since at least 6-7 years ago, EvE's customer base demographics have somewhat changed. EvE used to have a more or less specific, dedicated playerbase. The one "we want". The "guys who got it". Yay for them. However this dedicated playerbase is slowly declining due to many factors it's useless to repeat for the 110th time. Those are the emergent guys, they give a direction to the game, etc. etc. Then, we got a second chunk of playerbase. Those guys are a general MMO playerbase, they could play EvE or any other MMO, they aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer, they reflect the traits I have explained in a previous post. They were attracted in the past by EvE's videos, lore, industry (I know several friends who only joined EvE because they got told how good is EvE's "crafting"), shiny expansions and much more. Now, you can scoff at this second kind of players, at their mediocre lives, at their lack of social skills and blah blah, but here's the catch: they are now a sizable portion of those who provide CCP a bottom line. The issues come when the "dedicated" playerbase keeps slowly shrinking (RL, age, whatever reason for turnover) and at the same time the second does the same. EvE is not the 5k concurrent players MMO of old. It got top notch, expensive hardware infrastructures, lots of developers, multiple offices... it cannot survive only on dedicated players alone. Therefore you have to do something to keep those "second class citizens" who silently keep the EvE boat afloat. What exactly, I don't know. I have no insight in the true numbers: not those CCP post around to make virtual bean counters happy. I mean the real numbers. But whatever are the stats, EvE's playerbase is not monolythic any more like it used to be. It's years we have got those pesky "casuals" or whatever derogatory term we could stick onto them. The first step at solving a problem, is to rationalize and accept it exists. As long as we'll have people who just won't accept times are changing and that the "old, golden times" are over, EvE is going to decline a bit every year. We are slowly being replaced by dumb people who are easily controlled through entertainment. That's heavy. It's just like in the real world. Crowd Control productions, heh ... NullSec is a game of strategies and politics. Big powerblocks amass hundreds and thousands of carebears who love nothing more than carebearing in safety and occasionally hiding in a fleet, pressing f1. It's paid anyway and they benefit from the symbiosis massively. These people are - if i may take reddit's influence into account - easy minded. And if they don't carebear they wait for the next ping to happen. Bread & Circus. I don't mind CCPs nullcentric orientation. It makes sense, because all these thousands of people all still act in a pretty predictable manner. What bothers me is that highsec as a whole is being neglected and that new players are not presented with a general perspective on the game. Worse, there are griefers out there actively encouraging to stay safe, mine and carebear. But the real issue is that no one of those who still "get it" care enough to actually attempt to influence the process. They just do the predictable. Feel helpless and quit or believe that it should not be in their hands to change the situation. The whole mess in highsec is ripe for a major disruption, because it's beyond fixable. Edit: i got a bit carried away. Sorry. :3 Well here I agree with you on something and now I have to kill myself. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Beta Maoye 122	Posted - 2016.08.07 05:27:49 - [1151] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Beta Maoye wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Beta Maoye wrote: Eve has many emerging competitors that are taking players away. Eve game mechanic is getting old and familiar to players. Other games offer similar experience too. Fixing old issues cannot give the game edge over other competitors. Unless Eve can offer truly innovative features to identify itself, it will be getting more difficult to compete for the same set of players against other new games that offer similar features and more. Eve has truly innovative features that identify it, the bears never cease complaining about them. The game was truly an amazingly innovative mmo a decade ago, but the edge has not much left now. Look, the reality is number of online players are declining. MMO is all about connection between players. If the down tredning of population continues and passes a certain threshold, it might trigger a death spiral effect. One way or another, they have to stop the bleeding. Cherishing the memory of good old days cannot solve the problem. No. The source of innovation are players. The increasing number of competitors out there cannot be ignored. Player created content is a wonderful idea. Irony is that innovative players like to exercise their creative thinking in innovative games. Eve is losing these creative players to other competitors.
Shallanna Yassavi Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 306	Posted - 2016.08.07 05:30:55 - [1152] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Beta Maoye wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Beta Maoye wrote: Eve has many emerging competitors that are taking players away. Eve game mechanic is getting old and familiar to players. Other games offer similar experience too. Fixing old issues cannot give the game edge over other competitors. Unless Eve can offer truly innovative features to identify itself, it will be getting more difficult to compete for the same set of players against other new games that offer similar features and more. Eve has truly innovative features that identify it, the bears never cease complaining about them. The game was truly an amazingly innovative mmo a decade ago, but the edge has not much left now. Look, the reality is number of online players are declining. MMO is all about connection between players. If the down tredning of population continues and passes a certain threshold, it might trigger a death spiral effect. One way or another, they have to stop the bleeding. Cherishing the memory of good old days cannot solve the problem. No. The source of innovation are players. Yes and no. The big innovation of EVE was giving this many players this much freedom on such a huge scale. That's what makes it so different from every other game out there. That's why the difference between "all these other MMOs" and "EVE" is so huge: most other MMOs just don't do that. A signature :o
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 88	Posted - 2016.08.07 05:39:57 - [1153] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Since at least 6-7 years ago, EvE's customer base demographics have somewhat changed. EvE is not the 5k concurrent players MMO of old. It got top notch, expensive hardware infrastructures, lots of developers, multiple offices... it cannot survive only on dedicated players alone. EVE PCU has not been less than 5K since I was in the beta. So your point is complete hyperbole. In addition, through it's existence CCP has routinely had some of the leading technology available. See this article from 2013 with this quote referring to the technology in use back in 2009 here: "The funny thing was that, at the time, the technology only existed in the military so we had to get military clearance to go into a bunker in Texas to evaluate the hardware because the company, back then, had only just started looking into commercializing this thing that they made for the US army. We were one of first clients and they thought it was really funny that they went from building things for the army to something that's so completely light-hearted." With a grin, Halldor adds, "Of course, we told them that the Internet spaceships are serious business." Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Therefore you have to do something to keep those "second class citizens" who silently keep the EvE boat afloat. What exactly, I don't know. I have no insight in the true numbers: not those CCP post around to make virtual bean counters happy. I mean the real numbers. First, let's be honest, they are not quiet. Second, you admit (in the bit I bolded) that you have no facts on which to base your position yet you completely dismiss the data that does exist because they do not back up your assumptions. I call that rather convenient. Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: But whatever are the stats, EvE's playerbase is not monolythic any more like it used to be. It's years we have got those pesky "casuals" or whatever derogatory term we could stick onto them. EVE's has never had a "monolithic" player base. Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: The first step at solving a problem, is to rationalize and accept it exists. As long as we'll have people who just won't accept times are changing and that the "old, golden times" are over, EvE is going to decline a bit every year. I believe you are trying to rationalize a problem into existence, EVE is dying because of lack of casual players, that is not there. If it were true that EVE is dying, it is not dying (since 2004 by the way) because it has not catered to casual players. The "silver bullet" to fixing EVE is not to just make it like every other MMO except "in space." You are an admitted developer and that is great. I am in marketing - for over 25 years. Please believe me when I tell you that just doing what everyone else is doing is not "understanding your customer base." Do you honestly believe that CCP is not aware of the popularity of casual gaming? Do you honestly believe that CCP is not aware of the changing demographics of online gamers? Is it possible for you to admit that CCP might just actually know a little bit more about their game, their target market, their goals and their definition of success than you? The simple fact is that CCP did not design THIS game for the casual player. This game can not be changed into a game for the casual player. They are developing other games within the EVE IP to attract these people. In summary, go completely change the foundation and core mechanics of some other game but, please, leave this one the **** alone.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5081	Posted - 2016.08.07 05:52:51 - [1154] - Quote Shallanna Yassavi wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Beta Maoye wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Beta Maoye wrote: Eve has many emerging competitors that are taking players away. Eve game mechanic is getting old and familiar to players. Other games offer similar experience too. Fixing old issues cannot give the game edge over other competitors. Unless Eve can offer truly innovative features to identify itself, it will be getting more difficult to compete for the same set of players against other new games that offer similar features and more. Eve has truly innovative features that identify it, the bears never cease complaining about them. The game was truly an amazingly innovative mmo a decade ago, but the edge has not much left now. Look, the reality is number of online players are declining. MMO is all about connection between players. If the down tredning of population continues and passes a certain threshold, it might trigger a death spiral effect. One way or another, they have to stop the bleeding. Cherishing the memory of good old days cannot solve the problem. No. The source of innovation are players. Yes and no. The big innovation of EVE was giving this many players this much freedom on such a huge scale. That's what makes it so different from every other game out there. That's why the difference between "all these other MMOs" and "EVE" is so huge: most other MMOs just don't do that. Yes, that was an innovation, that does not mean that what the players did was not an innovation itself. Players are what make EVE interesting. If you log in to be entertained by missions or mining...damn...not sure what to say to that. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Shallanna Yassavi Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 307	Posted - 2016.08.07 08:22:42 - [1155] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Yes, that was an innovation, that does not mean that what the players did was not an innovation itself. Players are what make EVE interesting. If you log in to be entertained by missions or mining...damn...not sure what to say to that. People are easily amused? People like shiny things and explosions? People like getting a trophy for showing up? And the gaming world is full of people who don't understand: Any solo game which requires you to be online to play alone is defective. Any small-group multiplayer game which requires you to be online to use it in a LAN party is also defective. Buying these kinds of games tells publishers they can continue to sell defective products. A signature :o
March rabbit Mosquito Squadron The-Culture 1846	Posted - 2016.08.07 08:43:34 - [1156] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Players are what make EVE interesting. If you log in to be entertained by missions or mining...damn...not sure what to say to that. Sandbox? The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 31827	Posted - 2016.08.07 09:01:17 - [1157] - Quote March rabbit wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Players are what make EVE interesting. If you log in to be entertained by missions or mining...damn...not sure what to say to that. Sandbox? The point is that it's not interesting and he is right. What kind of argument is "sandbox?" anyway? the "people do what they like" thing is complete hogwash, because it's a catchall for every single one out there, completely dismissing the initial influence that pushes into certain directions. Arguments using "individuality" more often than not lack any depth, meaning and consideration. People don't just do what they like, they learn what they like and then stick with it or try something else. Many just stick with the initial activity that gave them a reward. This is a situation caused by ccp themselves, who pushes people into restricting pve and mining, which does not even offer anything interesting that makes the game and worse pushes people into isolation because it encourages isolated solo-play which ccp admitted is not so great from a retention perspective. the sad part is that it's not afk mining (mining with three accounts in covetors and an orca is fun though, always busy!) they like, it's that they like the easy rewards combined with watching netflix/etc. That's simply not how a game should be played, or will you argue that watching TV is part of the sandbox experience? ^_^ "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2095	Posted - 2016.08.07 09:36:59 - [1158] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: March rabbit wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Players are what make EVE interesting. If you log in to be entertained by missions or mining...damn...not sure what to say to that. Sandbox? The point is that it's not interesting and he is right. What kind of argument is "sandbox?" anyway? the "people do what they like" thing is complete hogwash, because it's a catchall for every single one out there, completely dismissing the initial influence that pushes into certain directions. Arguments using "individuality" more often than not lack any depth, meaning and consideration. People don't just do what they like, they learn what they like and then stick with it or try something else. Many just stick with the initial activity that gave them a reward. This is a situation caused by ccp themselves, who pushes people into restricting pve and mining, which does not even offer anything interesting that makes the game and worse pushes people into isolation because it encourages isolated solo-play which ccp admitted is not so great from a retention perspective. the sad part is that it's not afk mining (mining with three accounts in covetors and an orca is fun though, always busy!) they like, it's that they like the easy rewards combined with watching netflix/etc. That's simply not how a game should be played, or will you argue that watching TV is part of the sandbox experience? ^_^ Here is that stupid arrogance yet again, I got to know someone who mined and did logistics, she does not sell her ore, she just mines because she spends most of her time talking to people and watching TV. She also keeps an eye out on local. She had 4 accounts, so you suggest she stops playing because she is not playing the game right. Well the funny thing is that all the people she used to talk to have largely quit, so a couple of days back she was playing another game with her brother who is also an old ex-Eve player. There you go, she told me she will stop playing soon too. .. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5085	Posted - 2016.08.07 09:37:34 - [1159] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: The "silver bullet" to fixing EVE is not to just make it like every other MMO except "in space." You are an admitted developer and that is great. I am in marketing - for over 25 years. Please believe me when I tell you that just doing what everyone else is doing is not "understanding your customer base." Do you honestly believe that CCP is not aware of the popularity of casual gaming? Do you honestly believe that CCP is not aware of the changing demographics of online gamers? Is it possible for you to admit that CCP might just actually know a little bit more about their game, their target market, their goals and their definition of success than you? The simple fact is that CCP did not design THIS game for the casual player. This game can not be changed into a game for the casual player. They are developing other games within the EVE IP to attract these people. In summary, go completely change the foundation and core mechanics of some other game but, please, leave this one the **** alone. This should be obvious. If there are lots of games for casual players, then entering a highly competitive market with a game not suited to casuals and then trying to make it suitable for casuals is almost surely not going to end well. What are you going to do, compete for a tiny sliver of players? Yeah, that will work. To be clear, a competitive market like this any game is going to have a tough time surviving for long because there will always be a newer and cooler and better game for people to flock too. If this is the strategy it is not one, IMO, for long term success. Think of it this way, it is like going to Vegas and opening a new casino. Sure you'll pull in customers, but the vast majority if not all of them are going to be from other casinos. And those casinos are not going to just sit idly by and let their customers be wooed away to another casino. They'll respond to bring them back or keep them. Thus, a new casino is going to have a hard time of it. This is a game for people who plan on spending some time with it and getting good at it. Now it appears that people do not want to stick with it. How do you stop that? To be quite honest, I do not have a clue...and neither does anyone else here. It is like trying to pick the next google. If it were easy we'd all be billionaires. Since we aren't; it isn't. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5085	Posted - 2016.08.07 09:39:18 - [1160] - Quote Shallanna Yassavi wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Yes, that was an innovation, that does not mean that what the players did was not an innovation itself. Players are what make EVE interesting. If you log in to be entertained by missions or mining...damn...not sure what to say to that. People are easily amused? People like shiny things and explosions? People like getting a trophy for showing up? And the gaming world is full of people who don't understand: Any solo game which requires you to be online to play alone is defective. Any small-group multiplayer game which requires you to be online to use it in a LAN party is also defective. Buying these kinds of games tells publishers they can continue to sell defective products. People who are easily amused are also easily bored...and after you've killed the saboteur or rescued the damsel for the 50th time you too would get bored. If this is the basis for success....pack it in now. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5085	Posted - 2016.08.07 09:43:48 - [1161] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: March rabbit wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Players are what make EVE interesting. If you log in to be entertained by missions or mining...damn...not sure what to say to that. Sandbox? The point is that it's not interesting and he is right. What kind of argument is "sandbox?" anyway? the "people do what they like" thing is complete hogwash, because it's a catchall for every single one out there, completely dismissing the initial influence that pushes into certain directions. Arguments using "individuality" more often than not lack any depth, meaning and consideration. People don't just do what they like, they learn what they like and then stick with it or try something else. Many just stick with the initial activity that gave them a reward. This is a situation caused by ccp themselves, who pushes people into restricting pve and mining, which does not even offer anything interesting that makes the game and worse pushes people into isolation because it encourages isolated solo-play which ccp admitted is not so great from a retention perspective. the sad part is that it's not afk mining (mining with three accounts in covetors and an orca is fun though, always busy!) they like, it's that they like the easy rewards combined with watching netflix/etc. That's simply not how a game should be played, or will you argue that watching TV is part of the sandbox experience? ^_^ Perhaps you missed the part where it is the players who make it interesting. I logged in more during the war in the North. That had **-all to do with CCP and everything to do with players. I logged in more when Goons turned of BoB sov and that had -all to do with CCP and everything to do with players. When my alliance went to Stain and there were fleets...I logged in and again, that had **-all to do with CCP and everything to do with players. Nobody is pushed into anything in this game. Nothing in this game says you have to run missions or mine. Nothing. That is what a sandbox means. Do whatever. You are not going to have your hand held while you are in the sandbox. Figure out what you want to do and find the means to achieve it. If you cannot or will not do that...well...wrong game. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2095	Posted - 2016.08.07 09:44:46 - [1162] - Quote Those causla players were always there, but it really depends what you define as casual, it is simply people who wanted to play Eve without having to make it a second job, but who still appreciated the game. Eve has lost those players and it shows... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5085	Posted - 2016.08.07 09:47:18 - [1163] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Here is that stupid arrogance yet again, I got to know someone who mined and did logistics, she does not sell her ore, she just mines because she spends most of her time talking to people and watching TV. She also keeps an eye out on local. She had 4 accounts, so you suggest she stops playing because she is not playing the game right. Well the funny thing is that all the people she used to talk to have largely quit, so a couple of days back she was playing another game with her brother who is also an old ex-Eve player. There you go, she told me she will stop playing soon too. .. She is quitting because of the symptoms, not so much the problem, at least directly. And sad to say, the symptoms for many "diseases" can also be fatal. And no, I would not say she is "playing wrong". The point of a sandbox is do what you want. If that is what she liked, good for her. I might disagree with her chosen activities/path in EVE, but that is irrelevant, ultimately. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5085	Posted - 2016.08.07 09:59:32 - [1164] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Those causla players were always there, but it really depends what you define as casual, it is simply people who wanted to play Eve without having to make it a second job, but who still appreciated the game. Eve has lost those players and it shows... Okay, so let's say the game has become less hospitable to "casual players"--i.e. players who want to log in, get on TS and do stuff for 1, 2, or however many hours they can. They like living in HS because it suits that goal. No strategic ops to defend this or that. No, move ops where if you miss it your stuff can get dead zoned, etc. What could be some of those things? The increase in blanket war decs? Well we can lay that one at the feet of CCP. They eliminated the watchlist which made focused war decs excruciatingly hard to prosecute. Freighter ganking? Well again, I'd blame CCP. They nerfed freighter ganking and players responded in a novel way which ultimately gave rise to James 315 and CODE. and their imitators. What else? Miner ganking? Again, nerfed into the ground...but then along comes James 315 and people in anything other than a procuror or skiff are blown out of sky. The law of unintended consequences is often an unpleasant thing. It kind of reminds me of anti-biotic resistant bacteria. After awhile you get something so nasty you hope you never come into contact with it...Like MRSA (Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus). "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Keno Skir 802	Posted - 2016.08.07 10:13:25 - [1165] - Quote Dane Ge wrote: Doc Fury wrote: There are lots of other games to play, and CCP's latest developments seem to revolve around the further ~~fleecing~~ monetization of existing players, and attracting short-attention-span pay2win types of new players who don't stick around very long and are distracted easily. THIS!!!! As a new player it is really frustrating not be able to earn enough money to keep in PvP ships in a reasonable amount of time without buying Plex. All the suggestions I've gotten on what to do to make isk have turned out to be way too much time spent for too little return. Station trading seems to the one way to make decent money for your time and I dont have the skills or bank yet to set up enough buy/sell orders to make this an option for me. There needs to be an improvement in loot and PvE activities in general in this game Your two months in game do not reflect a well rounded knowledge of how EvE works yet. Likely you just don't know how to make money yet, which is ok you're new. ISK is actually way too easy to make, especially compared to a few years ago. Please avoid making definitive statements about a game you've hardly played :) Gùï> 30 Day Buddy Trial + ISK Bonus & Starting Assistance <Gùï Feel free to contact me regarding my posts, or my 30 Day EvE Buddy Trials \o/
March rabbit Mosquito Squadron The-Culture 1846	Posted - 2016.08.07 10:34:22 - [1166] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: March rabbit wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Players are what make EVE interesting. If you log in to be entertained by missions or mining...damn...not sure what to say to that. Sandbox? The point is that it's not interesting and he is right. What kind of argument is "sandbox?" anyway? the "people do what they like" thing is complete hogwash, because it's a catchall for every single one out there, completely dismissing the initial influence that pushes into certain directions. Arguments using "individuality" more often than not lack any depth, meaning and consideration. People don't just do what they like, they learn what they like and then stick with it or try something else. Many just stick with the initial activity that gave them a reward. This is a situation caused by ccp themselves, who pushes people into restricting pve and mining, which does not even offer anything interesting that makes the game and worse pushes people into isolation because it encourages isolated solo-play which ccp admitted is not so great from a retention perspective. the sad part is that it's not afk mining (mining with three accounts in covetors and an orca is fun though, always busy!) they like, it's that they like the easy rewards combined with watching netflix/etc. That's simply not how a game should be played, or will you argue that watching TV is part of the sandbox experience? ^_^ ... and we back to 'they play the game wrongly'? What about: - these 'non-players' provide materials for others to build stuff - these 'non-players' provide targets for gankers - these 'non-players' provide market for traders/manufacturers - these 'non-players' provide competition to others for asteroids - ... ? In reality each person can find something he enjoys in the game. And if it is not Counter-Strike in space (and let's be honest most of 'pvp'-crowd plays exactly this game inside Eve) then nothing wrong here. The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 17872	Posted - 2016.08.07 10:43:02 - [1167] - Quote Maybe there are less people because they're sick and tired of EVERY SINGLE DISCUSSION turning into the same "bears vs gankers" go-round. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 93	Posted - 2016.08.07 10:54:55 - [1168] - Quote Malcanis wrote: Maybe there are less people because they're sick and tired of EVERY SINGLE DISCUSSION turning into the same "bears vs gankers" go-round. Yes, you're right, their only desire is to be ganked asap...
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 3496	Posted - 2016.08.07 10:57:02 - [1169] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Okay, so let's say the game has become less hospitable to "casual players"--i.e. players who want to log in, get on TS and do stuff for 1, 2, or however many hours they can. They like living in HS because it suits that goal. No strategic ops to defend this or that. No, move ops where if you miss it your stuff can get dead zoned, etc. What could be some of those things? The increase in blanket war decs? Well we can lay that one at the feet of CCP. They eliminated the watchlist which made focused war decs excruciatingly hard to prosecute. Freighter ganking? Well again, I'd blame CCP. They nerfed freighter ganking and players responded in a novel way which ultimately gave rise to James 315 and CODE. and their imitators. What else? Miner ganking? Again, nerfed into the ground...but then along comes James 315 and people in anything other than a procuror or skiff are blown out of sky. The law of unintended consequences is often an unpleasant thing. It kind of reminds me of anti-biotic resistant bacteria. After awhile you get something so nasty you hope you never come into contact with it...Like MRSA (Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus). Except none of those are true. Blanket War decs were already a thing before CCP changed the watchlist. In fact the watch list change barely caused an increase in the wars groups like Marmite were already throwing out and had been throwing out for quite a large number of months. Code happened before the change to freighter ganking, and before the changes to mining barges. The fact they already existed meant that when the changes happened they made a whole lot of grand standing noise about it and launched a few specific campaigns, but quite honestly I found the old hulkageddon more scary when on my mining account than any of the code campaigns. What has changed is social media. When EVE started social media and connections were nowhere near as evolved as they are today, the internet was not as easy to search since Google was not yet reigning supreme and didn't track everything that happens on it, we didn't have the super easy voice chat options, and we didn't have the insanely complex third party tools. These changes to social media, the internet and communication tools mean that it is vastly easier to propagate noise, and therefore also vastly easier to propagate rubbish noise. And that is what is happening.
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 31842	Posted - 2016.08.07 11:43:25 - [1170] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Perhaps you missed the part where it is the players who make it interesting. I logged in more during the war in the North. That had **-all to do with CCP and everything to do with players. I logged in more when Goons turned of BoB sov and that had -all to do with CCP and everything to do with players. When my alliance went to Stain and there were fleets...I logged in and again, that had **-all to do with CCP and everything to do with players. Nobody is pushed into anything in this game. Nothing in this game says you have to run missions or mine. Nothing. That is what a sandbox means. Do whatever. You are not going to have your hand held while you are in the sandbox. Figure out what you want to do and find the means to achieve it. If you cannot or will not do that...well...wrong game. first of all are you somehow missing that we're on the same side of the coin. Second seems you're missing that nullsec isn't actually the whole game and third, that there are tons of new players every day who go the path ccp laid out for them, supported by all those who keep parrotting it. Fourth should you start considering that people make decisions based on the information they have (for most that is zero when they start) and how the initial experience obviously influences the whole. .) Nobody is pushed into anything in this game. Nothing in this game says you have to run missions or mine. Nothing. Clearly you either don't know how to express yourself, or you're dunning-krueger. In any case does it seem like you are talking about how it shohld be, while i am talking about parts of what is actually going on. all talk is just fruitless pingponging worthless opinions if there is no objectvity involved. Your choice. vOv "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Tekla Rousseau Faster Than Light Entierprises DARKNESS. 0	Posted - 2016.08.07 11:44:40 - [1171] - Quote I'm not going to bother going over all 59 pages of post. The answer is simple. Eve has been out for a while now and that is to be expected, nothing last forever... This does not mean eve is going to go poof any time soon. I still see 20 - 30k people online during peak hours. And TBH I like when it is quiet. I don't have to drop what I'm doing to go kick a bunch of newts off my lawn
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 31843	Posted - 2016.08.07 11:51:34 - [1172] - Quote Tekla Rousseau wrote: I'm not going to bother going over all 59 pages of post. The answer is simple. Eve has been out for a while now and that is to be expected, nothing last forever... This does not mean eve is going to go poof any time soon. I still see 20 - 30k people online during peak hours. And TBH I like when it is quiet. I don't have to drop what I'm doing to go kick a bunch of newts off my lawn You're right.... There is barely anything of value or purpose happening in here. Some of us should start our own thread. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5759	Posted - 2016.08.07 11:54:26 - [1173] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: EVE PCU has not been less than 5K since I was in the beta. So your point is complete hyperbole. In addition, through it's existence CCP has routinely had some of the leading technology available. See this article from 2013 with this quote referring to the technology in use back in 2009 here: "The funny thing was that, at the time, the technology only existed in the military so we had to get military clearance to go into a bunker in Texas to evaluate the hardware because the company, back then, had only just started looking into commercializing this thing that they made for the US army. We were one of first clients and they thought it was really funny that they went from building things for the army to something that's so completely light-hearted." With a grin, Halldor adds, "Of course, we told them that the Internet spaceships are serious business." Using top notch hardware is not just about picking the nicest piece of hardware available, but also how much of that you buy. As EvE became increasingly successful, CCP did not just have to buy good hardware, but also to purchase enough servers to deal with the numbers. If you suddenly had lost half playerbase, you'd have half of those servers sitting idle, consuming power, needing replacements and system administration. Admin and hardware costs are an easily ignored issue but they are relevant. As I am playing online games since the '90s, I have been in most MMOs (and more). The ones that tanked, always went through servers consolidations. In the beginning of a MMO crysis, server consolidation is mostly a measure to keep a shard population healthy enough to avoid it bleeding to death due to the highly dangerous "server desertification effect". Past that, someone who cares to read the company's statements / devs posts etc. would see how dismissed servers would be used as broken parts replacement source. This still holds true on "brink of death" MMOs like Istaria. MMOs that ultimately closed down (last famous case being Warhammer Online), in order to save on hardware and administration, ended up moving the last 2-3 physical servers onto VPS instances. So, yes, I reaffirm my statement about this. Lex Gabinia wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Therefore you have to do something to keep those "second class citizens" who silently keep the EvE boat afloat. What exactly, I don't know. I have no insight in the true numbers: not those CCP post around to make virtual bean counters happy. I mean the real numbers. First, let's be honest, they are not quiet. Second, you admit (in the bit I bolded) that you have no facts on which to base your position yet you completely dismiss the data that does exist because they do not back up your assumptions. I call that rather convenient. By "not quiet" you mean that guy out of 1000 who creates a GD thread about "whaa my Hulk got ganked" and then he never gets seen again? About data: come on, you can't blindly believe on data released by the same company who benefit from them looking good, that's what 3rd party auditing exists for. I have worked on computer companies for 20 years, not a single time they'd spread the full, real data. They actually paid computer magazines and websites for friendly reviews and they got them every time. I can't believe you play EvE (a game where deceit is seen as emergent, good gameplay) made by a company whose name is an acronym for: "Crowd Control Productions" and still take everything they throw at you. I also have a Santa Claus sled for sale if you want! Lex Gabinia wrote: I believe you are trying to rationalize a problem into existence, EVE is dying because of lack of casual players, that is not there. If it were true that EVE is dying, it is not dying (since 2004 by the way) because it has not catered to casual players. [snipped because of 6k chars limit] Do you honestly believe that CCP is not aware of the popularity of casual gaming? Do you honestly believe that CCP is not aware of the changing demographics of online gamers? Is it possible for you to admit that CCP might just actually know a little bit more about their game, their target market, their goals and their definition of success than you? Between "being aware" and "being able to deal with it" there's some meausurable gap. CCP and not me, designed WiS and failed at it. They DID understand they had to cater to a wider, less "hard core purist we-are-playing-it-right-the-MMO-for-us-the-elite" playerbase yet they failed. And no, they did not fail just because of technology, but because of $1000 jeans attitude. CCP and not me, created Apochrypha and it has been their last, huge success. It catered to those pesky "casuals" (I think we have got two different versions for that) who were fine with 0.0 "alike" gameplay but not with the useless mega-corp induced burden. I truly can't think of a single bad thing about WHs. CCP, if they want, CAN create casual content that does not kill its "hard core" foundations. However, they officially branded Apochrypha as a bad expansion and have steered well away off it. The results are speaking loud. "Yes, but they wanted to stop those bad Holy Jesus expansions because of bugs blah blah" . Oh well, guess which delivery model made EvE peak its success? Exactly that ugly kind of expansions. What did those expansions achieve? They renewed gameplay in a tangible way. To be honest, I immensely appreciated more having to deal with bugs and a GREAT WH experience, than having paid subs for 6 months just to see a sluggish inventory screen being remade. I guess this makes me a "casual" too. As casual as those hard core players who too enjoyed getting 2 expansions a year for a decade. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 31843	Posted - 2016.08.07 12:06:14 - [1174] - Quote Citadels is, as they said, that they want expansions (connected features and themes) ynd constant updates. We will get another expanother expansion this year, most likely. The industrial stuff, I'd guess. Hopefully tied to some theme and lore. The rorqual changes might actually make it usefull... which can influence whole markets! (gotta read up on it) In any case wouldnt i mind a more goal based approach in discussions. Or a new thread. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 93	Posted - 2016.08.07 12:36:05 - [1175] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: Citadels is, as they said, that they want expansions (connected features and themes) ynd constant updates. We will get another expanother expansion this year, most likely. The industrial stuff, I'd guess. Hopefully tied to some theme and lore. The rorqual changes might actually make it usefull... which can influence whole markets! (gotta read up on it) In any case wouldnt i mind a more goal based approach in discussions. Or a new thread. Some changes to ships, a new kind of base, some minor interface changes you call them expansion? Please be serious, they make some little updates to the game, nothing more. I'm almost moved by the attachment of someone here to the game but I would really suggest to be a bit more demanding, you are happy with very very few things...
Bumblefck Kerensky Initiatives 12762	Posted - 2016.08.07 12:56:14 - [1176] - Quote Quote: Some of us should start our own thread. Sorry, but if it's going to be anything similar to this or the myriad of other threads like it, then please, no We've had to put up with them for weeks now and it's frankly getting a bit sickening, plus there is the whole profligate waste of electrons to be considered Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi . Bumble's Space Log
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 31846	Posted - 2016.08.07 13:37:26 - [1177] - Quote Bumblefck wrote: Quote: Some of us should start our own thread. Sorry, but if it's going to be anything similar to this or the myriad of other threads like it, then please, no We've had to put up with them for weeks now and it's frankly getting a bit sickening, plus there is the whole profligate waste of electrons to be considered Yeah there isn't really much value in the usual conversations ... ... but that's because of people not really talking to each other. I wonder if the word "Gespr+ñchskultur" has a direct translation... You're right that it's useless as long as they can't be locked out. We'd have to move ingame for that. vOv Hey VV, maybe you should start a blog! You're just wasting energy here! ^_^ "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Galaxy Chicken Free Highsec Industrialists 71	Posted - 2016.08.07 14:13:51 - [1178] - Quote Wow, I see the thread got really elitist since last I checked in.
Geronimo McVain McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc 163	Posted - 2016.08.07 17:35:26 - [1179] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Okay, so let's say the game has become less hospitable to "casual players"--i.e. players who want to log in, get on TS and do stuff for 1, 2, or however many hours they can. They like living in HS because it suits that goal. No strategic ops to defend this or that. No, move ops where if you miss it your stuff can get dead zoned, etc. What could be some of those things? Well, must it be something that changed? There are always players leaving games, that's normal. But if nobody new takes their place their number will dwindle. Eve is doing everything to make it difficult to new players. There is just these monster game which got more complex by the year and you just kick in the player and hope he swims. CCP said that they have no shortage in new (trial)players but these players don't stay. They don't quit about ganking or some SOV changes, they quit because they don't get the hang on this game. Take the missions, something most new players will do. Wall of text and just "kill this" or "get that". You quickly stop reading the text because there is no valuable information. No twists in the plot. All these missions will loose nothing if you delete the text part. And it is lonely because nobody is talking to you. You could be in a System with 30 players and not 1 convo for hours. And the agents also don't talk, no cut scenes. Do you see a (NPC)Titan anywhere just flying by? I remember with horror my first try to fit a ship. No infos, ****** fitting window, no money for experiments.....The expectations of the customers have changed and Eve is letting noobs down! It's not about players leaving but about no new players comming to the game.
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 574	Posted - 2016.08.07 18:00:37 - [1180] - Quote Would be nice if Aura's tutorial missions would explain some of the modules and how to build a proper fit with it. Could perhaps even be a good idea to have some more enterprising aura missions- such as "look capsuleer, I'm going to send you off to Tama/Rancer/Amamake to pick up this worthless crate and odds are you won't survive." Many of the game mechanics remain unexplained, in fact the training seems to curbstomp around the time you get a Slasher with civilian mods. If I wanted to know what a wormhole is, Aura wouldn't be the one I'd ask. So I got a freighter now- Aura is where? My first jumpdrive cool, and word on that Aura? Of course not. Aura never passed the training herself /me thinks. If I get into a battleship, nowhere is the popup congratulating me on my purchase and maybe warning me about how fragile tracking small stuff can be. Or, you know, maybe reference values for DPS/EHP I can reasonably expect from a battleship? Once upon a time I had a Hurricane -it wasn't even totally failfit- that cranked out a whopping 220 DPS. Whew! Little did I know as my skills picked up I'd do over 200 with a Daredevil LOL. EvE is a game that really comes into its own or doesn't do it for you depending on who you run with at first. If you run into some good chaps, you'll learn a lot. Otherwise, nothing will ever make sense and that trial account will lapse. If nothing else, a short introduction explaining what a ship can/should do for newbros to compare to would help. Lord knows I've tried and even succeeded once or twice in helping a newbro along... the amount of information to process at first is staggering. You may not remember or realize this anymore but it really is.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5092	Posted - 2016.08.07 19:51:39 - [1181] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Okay, so let's say the game has become less hospitable to "casual players"--i.e. players who want to log in, get on TS and do stuff for 1, 2, or however many hours they can. They like living in HS because it suits that goal. No strategic ops to defend this or that. No, move ops where if you miss it your stuff can get dead zoned, etc. What could be some of those things? The increase in blanket war decs? Well we can lay that one at the feet of CCP. They eliminated the watchlist which made focused war decs excruciatingly hard to prosecute. Freighter ganking? Well again, I'd blame CCP. They nerfed freighter ganking and players responded in a novel way which ultimately gave rise to James 315 and CODE. and their imitators. What else? Miner ganking? Again, nerfed into the ground...but then along comes James 315 and people in anything other than a procuror or skiff are blown out of sky. The law of unintended consequences is often an unpleasant thing. It kind of reminds me of anti-biotic resistant bacteria. After awhile you get something so nasty you hope you never come into contact with it...Like MRSA (Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus). Except none of those are true. Blanket War decs were already a thing before CCP changed the watchlist. In fact the watch list change barely caused an increase in the wars groups like Marmite were already throwing out and had been throwing out for quite a large number of months. Code happened before the change to freighter ganking, and before the changes to mining barges. The fact they already existed meant that when the changes happened they made a whole lot of grand standing noise about it and launched a few specific campaigns, but quite honestly I found the old hulkageddon more scary when on my mining account than any of the code campaigns. What has changed is social media. When EVE started social media and connections were nowhere near as evolved as they are today, the internet was not as easy to search since Google was not yet reigning supreme and didn't track everything that happens on it, we didn't have the super easy voice chat options, and we didn't have the insanely complex third party tools. These changes to social media, the internet and communication tools mean that it is vastly easier to propagate noise, and therefore also vastly easier to propagate rubbish noise. And that is what is happening. I never said blanket war decs were not a thing. I said the increase. Sure, prior to the watchlist removal some people were using blanket war decs, but removing the watchlist has absolutely made the situation worse. Corps and alliances that would do focused war decs were basically shut down and CCP admitted this. That left blanket decs. And no, I'm pretty sure the change to insurance payouts was before 2012 and James 315 really didn't appear much before that at least pushing his Code. And CODE. has to come after that, sometime in 2013 would be my guess. And checking dotlan, that is not quite correct. The earliest corp in CODE. was 12/29/2012. We have already been over this, the removal of insurance made ganking for profit more difficult. Please, every BadGäó in this thread note I said more difficult, not impossible. As I have noted before people suggest these "solutions" to ganking, but then ganking keeps going on and here we are. Maybe it is time to walk away with this lesson, you may think you can design something out of the game...but when it is a sandbox you may find yourself rather frustrated. Edit: And I don't buy the social media thing at all. For one thing it is also free advertising too. To suggest it is nothing but negative is something I find unlikely. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5092	Posted - 2016.08.07 20:17:43 - [1182] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: first of all are you somehow missing that we're on the same side of the coin. Second seems you're missing that nullsec isn't actually the whole game and third, that there are tons of new players every day who go the path ccp laid out for them, supported by all those who keep parrotting it. Fourth should you start considering that people make decisions based on the information they have (for most that is zero when they start) and how the initial experience obviously influences the whole. .) Nobody is pushed into anything in this game. Nothing in this game says you have to run missions or mine. Nothing. Clearly you either don't know how to express yourself, or you're dunning-krueger. In any case does it seem like you are talking about how it shohld be, while i am talking about parts of what is actually going on. all talk is just fruitless pingponging worthless opinions if there is no objectvity involved. Your choice. vOv You say we are on the same side, but I don't think so. My view is the game has always been, and hopefully always be, if you do something imprudent in the game there will be somebody to show you just how imprudent you were. Now, that is not to say everyone should do what I say, it is merely describing how the game is. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17823	Posted - 2016.08.07 21:06:41 - [1183] - Quote Geronimo McVain wrote: [quote=Teckos Pech] Well, must it be something that changed? Highsec is more boring now. As much as some people around here hate the idea of hulkageddon these events did bring in the players and made headlines in the gaming world. It was often said that people who didn't like EVE loved to read about it.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5764	Posted - 2016.08.07 21:30:05 - [1184] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Geronimo McVain wrote: [quote=Teckos Pech] Well, must it be something that changed? Highsec is more boring now. As much as some people around here hate the idea of hulkageddon these events did bring in the players and made headlines in the gaming world. It was often said that people who didn't like EVE loved to read about it. First time I agree with you about something. Hulkageddon sucked and was awesome at the same time. Depending on one of 3 choices: gankee, ganker or industrialist Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Mara Pahrdi The Order of Anoyia 1185	Posted - 2016.08.07 21:37:28 - [1185] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Geronimo McVain wrote: [quote=Teckos Pech] Well, must it be something that changed? Highsec is more boring now. As much as some people around here hate the idea of hulkageddon these events did bring in the players and made headlines in the gaming world. It was often said that people who didn't like EVE loved to read about it. Not to forget that some of the guys flying in hulkageddon were extremely knowlegeable about EVE, friendly, helpful towards new players and really cool guys to spend your time with. Sadly, all those that I have had the chance to meet have left the game by now. Remove insurance.
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 31880	Posted - 2016.08.07 21:50:40 - [1186] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: You say we are on the same side, but I don't think so. My view is the game has always been, and hopefully always be, if you do something imprudent in the game there will be somebody to show you just how imprudent you were. Now, that is not to say everyone should do what I say, it is merely describing how the game is. That's great and I don't necessarily disagree with you if we ignore possible long term shifts in demographics ... ... but what exactly has that to do now with what I said? "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Nya Kittenheart Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 23	Posted - 2016.08.07 21:51:58 - [1187] - Quote baltec1 wrote: It was often said that people who didn't like EVE loved to read about it. I mean you re clearly stating that even with these events people doesn't like to play EVE,so those event made good novel but poor game content is what you re saying. Glad your truecarebearself showed up Doesnt answer the question why people doesn't like to play Eve ? My answer is simple because Devs doesn't ask themselves the good question and/or delude themselves with their own answers. Resulting in an unpolished,unepic,repetitive,annoying game atleast for the Pve side,for Pvp the lack of ladders for specific combat format and more in general the lack of competitive PVP is what crippling that side to me.
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 31881	Posted - 2016.08.07 21:56:06 - [1188] - Quote March rabbit wrote: ... and we back to 'they play the game wrongly'? What about: - these 'non-players' provide materials for others to build stuff - these 'non-players' provide targets for gankers - these 'non-players' provide market for traders/manufacturers - these 'non-players' provide competition to others for asteroids - ... ? In reality each person can find something he enjoys in the game. And if it is not Counter-Strike in space (and let's be honest most of 'pvp'-crowd plays exactly this game inside Eve) then nothing wrong here. It's actually completely impossible talking to you ... ... because you can't stop reading things no one writes ... ... and have a horrible attitude towards people trying to talk and analyse. An ability that would suit you well, but it needs things you seem to lack. You're being superficial. Dare I say you have no damn clue and believe "people do what they want". You do not understand how choices are created, how people are formed or how players are lead along the way. You're nothing but a troll. Have a nice day. :) "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17824	Posted - 2016.08.07 22:08:06 - [1189] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: First time I agree with you about something. Hulkageddon sucked and was awesome at the same time. Depending on one of 3 choices: gankee, ganker or industrialist Industrialists won hands down in these events.
Chronos Thiesant Deep Sky Enterprises 4	Posted - 2016.08.07 22:17:28 - [1190] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: March rabbit wrote: ... and we back to 'they play the game wrongly'? What about: - these 'non-players' provide materials for others to build stuff - these 'non-players' provide targets for gankers - these 'non-players' provide market for traders/manufacturers - these 'non-players' provide competition to others for asteroids - ... ? In reality each person can find something he enjoys in the game. And if it is not Counter-Strike in space (and let's be honest most of 'pvp'-crowd plays exactly this game inside Eve) then nothing wrong here. It's actually completely impossible talking to you ... ... because you can't stop reading things no one writes ... ... and have a horrible attitude towards people trying to talk and analyse. An ability that would suit you well, but it needs things you seem to lack. You're being superficial. Dare I say you have no damn clue and believe "people do what they want". You do not understand how choices are created, how people are formed or how players are lead along the way. You're nothing but a troll. Have a nice day. :) Regardless of why people choose to mine or mission, or whatever other boring activity, he does have a point. These players do still directly contribute to your eve gameplay. Maybe you are an explorer in nullsec and find an A-type invuln. Who is going to buy that? One possibility is a mission runner blinging his favourite mission ship. Without him the demand is lower and so is the isk you can expect to make. Another example, you are a suicide ganker looking to gank for as cheap as possible so you can afford more ganks. Who provides the ships you will use? Who provides the materials in the first place? Yes it is these loner-type players once again. Sure you can argue that eve is better played with other people (which is just like your opinion, man), but if these miners / missioners / whatever all stopped playing you would feel the difference. Eve is a complex game with a real functional economy requiring many different roles to make the wheels turn. I want it to stay this way, with all the depth and complexity it already has.
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 31883	Posted - 2016.08.07 22:56:37 - [1191] - Quote Chronos Thiesant wrote: Regardless of why people choose to mine or mission, or whatever other boring activity, he does have a point. These players do still directly contribute to your eve gameplay. Maybe you are an explorer in nullsec and find an A-type invuln. Who is going to buy that? One possibility is a mission runner blinging his favourite mission ship. Without him the demand is lower and so is the isk you can expect to make. Another example, you are a suicide ganker looking to gank for as cheap as possible so you can afford more ganks. Who provides the ships you will use? Who provides the materials in the first place? Yes it is these loner-type players once again. Sure you can argue that eve is better played with other people (which is just like your opinion, man), but if these miners / missioners / whatever all stopped playing you would feel the difference. Eve is a complex game with a real functional economy requiring many different roles to make the wheels turn. I want it to stay this way, with all the depth and complexity it already has. I am not denying that they do not even passively contribute to the game simply through existing. "Philosopy!" wrote: the nature of existence demands that there is no opting out of having an effect on everyone else ... ... directly or indirectly ... ... even over hundred corners. That is not the issue! the issue is that some of them are not playing! What do you think is the turn-around on miners? i dont know it, but it would be interesting to know- we only know a rough number of months when it comes to those - and i quote - "who level up their ravens". these also are affected, but for them it is different. they do play, but of the part who avoids interaction theris a great pool of people who do not necessarily do so on purpose. then there are certain ways to make people change their mind. i converted a miner to the darkside once somply by taking him on a suicide roam! at the end after the gank, when his hands shook like a broken washing machine ... ... he got hooked to actively influencing existence instead of simply participating! if CCP Ghost is knowledgable enough, he will certainly consider tickling people-¦s adrenaline levels! This further finds support in data as well! CCP Rise said that after analysing their data regarding new players ... ... they found out that interaction boosts retention-likeliness. it was specifically about suicide ganking ... ... which makes perfect sense ... :D ... because you get exposed to adrenaline ... ... or at least experience an emotional reaction! the rest is a convo! :D and from this more meta perspective i have proposed one actual solution that boosts retention rate ... ... and i bet my ass there are far more people out there who did like i did. and you know what happened eventually? CCP changed the mechanics and can flipping died. CCP made ninja salvaging worthless. feel free to list more, i will add them here... tl;dr: stop discussing about superficial and irrelevant perspectives ... ... and instead stick to what is real, not just interpretations and opinions. tl;dr2: there is a significant difference between actively playing and thus influencing ... ... and merely participating. a miner can be active as well, by talking to people (and some do). of course his influence-level is rather low, but he fulfills obvious requirements for successfull retention: Communication and (emotional?) Interaction. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 91	Posted - 2016.08.07 23:05:50 - [1192] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: By "not quiet" you mean that guy out of 1000 who creates a GD thread about "whaa my Hulk got ganked" and then he never gets seen again? About data: come on, you can't blindly believe on data released by the same company who benefit from them looking good, that's what 3rd party auditing exists for. I have worked on computer companies for 20 years, not a single time they'd spread the full, real data. They actually paid computer magazines and websites for friendly reviews and they got them every time. I can't believe you play EvE (a game where deceit is seen as emergent, good gameplay) made by a company whose name is an acronym for: "Crowd Control Productions" and still take everything they throw at you. I also have a Santa Claus sled for sale if you want! No, I mean the repeated posts about changing the game to resemble a theme park MMO be it through ganking nerf, transport assembled ships, PVP zones, barge buffs, new players needing access to all ships from day one, etc. They are all following the same theme. Honestly, I really can't help you with the data. If you are so jaded and conspiracy theory obsessed that you assume all companies are lying then I will never change your mind. Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: I believe you are trying to rationalize a problem into existence, EVE is dying because of lack of casual players, that is not there. If it were true that EVE is dying, it is not dying (since 2004 by the way) because it has not catered to casual players. [snipped because of 6k chars limit] Do you honestly believe that CCP is not aware of the popularity of casual gaming? Do you honestly believe that CCP is not aware of the changing demographics of online gamers? Is it possible for you to admit that CCP might just actually know a little bit more about their game, their target market, their goals and their definition of success than you? Between "being aware" and "being able to deal with it" there's some meausurable gap. CCP and not me, designed WiS and failed at it. They DID understand they had to cater to a wider, less "hard core purist we-are-playing-it-right-the-MMO-for-us-the-elite" playerbase yet they failed. And no, they did not fail just because of technology, but because of $1000 jeans attitude. Yes, they failed which should give you some indication of the difficulty of making THIS game into what engages many of the more casual/low-risk preferred gamers. Also, the failure and subsequent revolt was on many levels not the least of which was the hint of the golden ammo/pay to win game mechanics preferred by the casual player to which I refer. Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: CCP and not me, created Apochrypha and it has been their last, huge success. It catered to those pesky "casuals" (I think we have got two different versions of what we think an EvE "casual" would be) who were fine with 0.0 "alike" gameplay but not with the useless mega-corp induced burden. I truly can't think of a single bad thing about WHs. CCP, if they want, CAN create casual content that does not kill its "hard core" foundations. However, they officially branded Apochrypha as a bad expansion and have steered well away off it. The results are speaking loud. "Yes, but they wanted to stop those bad Holy Jesus expansions because of bugs blah blah" . Oh well, guess which delivery model made EvE peak its success? Exactly that ugly kind of expansions. What did those expansions achieve? They renewed gameplay in a tangible way. To be honest, I immensely appreciated more having to deal with bugs and a GREAT WH experience, than having paid subs for 6 months just to see a sluggish inventory screen being remade. I guess this makes me a "casual" too. As casual as those hard core players who too enjoyed getting 2 expansions a year for a decade. With this section you lost me. So WH's are for casual players? Arguably the most lawless and dangerous place (no local, hardcore NPC, no stargates, complicated logistics, etc.) in the game is for casual players? Also release intervals were never part of this discussion. Finally, since you left out the most relevant portion of my post about changing EVE to cater to a more casual play style and that CCP is run by lying fools I will post it again: The "silver bullet" to fixing EVE is not to just make it like every other MMO except "in space." The simple fact is that CCP did not design THIS game for the casual player. This game can not be changed into a game for the casual player. They are developing other games within the EVE IP to attract these people.
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 31883	Posted - 2016.08.07 23:12:58 - [1193] - Quote regarding me feeling different if miners stopped playing: a big difference between the pve and the pvp crowd is ... ... that the pvp crowd also does pve ... ... while the pve crowd doesnt do pvp at all. this means the pvp crowd is including, while the pve crowd is excluding. they believe that if they stopped mining others wouldnt take their places. thats wrong. its so far from reality alice in wonderland sits at it with a table, drinking tea! if they all stop, prices go up and its perceived as worthwhile again. you have to realize that you are not only not special, you are also easily replaced. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17294	Posted - 2016.08.07 23:31:57 - [1194] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: regarding me feeling different if miners stopped playing: a big difference between the pve and the pvp crowd is ... ... that the pvp crowd also does pve ... ... while the pve crowd doesnt do pvp at all. this means the pvp crowd is including, while the pve crowd is excluding. they believe that if they stopped mining others wouldnt take their places. thats wrong. its so far from reality alice in wonderland sits at it with a table, drinking tea! if they all stop, prices go up and its perceived as worthwhile again. you have to realize that you are not only not special, you are also easily replaced. two of the most efficient miners i know are also mercenaries. infact a sizable chunk of our non-contracted wars were grinding their competition into a messy pulp. miners, ever wondered why sometimes mercs decide to jump up and down on your corp for no apparent reason? you likely stepped on their pve alts profit margins or moved into their farm of some description or another. i take up exploration when i have spare time (i like scanning and its good for practice) and we used to grind out locator agents for standing (which is a considerable amount of work, hell whenever i get the chance i run the amarr ark twice (pull from two chars with standing and do each mission back to back). all told its the guts of a billion in couple of days. so if the bears stopped working you know what would happen? our profit margins would increase several orders of magnitude overnight. =]\|[=
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 31885	Posted - 2016.08.07 23:40:30 - [1195] - Quote Quote: The simple fact is that CCP did not design THIS game for the casual player. This game can not be changed into a game for the casual player. They are developing other games within the EVE IP to attract these people Reality is that this is irrelevant. CCP changes it. That is what's happening and you would be more helpful not wasting your own time trying to convince everyone of how you believe things should work. Fact is also that you are right when it comes to judging the idea! It's bullshit to cater to casuals specifically! Fact is also that CCP can, does and already has changed things towards the casual player. Fact is that CCP forgothisname developed a dojo system, which is antiEVE, but exists and waits. Fact is that there is no conspiracy, but companies still present everything in a possibly favourable light. Or don't present it. TL;DR: talk is seriously cheap and worthless if it's for it exists only for itself. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5764	Posted - 2016.08.08 00:36:49 - [1196] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: No, I mean the repeated posts about changing the game to resemble a theme park MMO be it through ganking nerf, transport assembled ships, PVP zones, barge buffs, new players needing access to all ships from day one, etc. They are all following the same theme. Honestly, I really can't help you with the data. If you are so jaded and conspiracy theory obsessed that you assume all companies are lying then I will never change your mind. Those repeating posts are not those who quit. It's a group of known names who have their own agenda since years ago. I am interested in the silent thousands who quit, not the dozen dedicated forum dwellers who are vocal on the forums. About "conspiracy": common business practices are not exactly conspiracy. Lex Gabinia wrote: Yes, they failed which should give you some indication of the difficulty of making THIS game into what engages many of the more casual/low-risk preferred gamers. Also, the failure and subsequent revolt was on many levels not the least of which was the hint of the golden ammo/pay to win game mechanics preferred by the casual player to which I refer. I don't see why having a first person minigame => casual. You can make first person gameplay as competitive and painful as spaceships. After all, you get shot in the head in first person => you lose implants and all which may equal or go beyond the ISK loss you get losing a ship. Regarding CCP's attitude: yes, I recall. Actually I am one of the "revolts" promoters. I was tired paying 6-12 subs just to see unfinished and just UTTER CRAP coming out, like PI or the 96th re-re-re-remake of even worse, exploitable and laggier FW. Also, $1000 jeans "philosophy" involved charging 3rd party software developers and website owners. Considering I was both of them and was dedicating a lot of time and money (websites did not come for free in 2011) and considering I had to adapt (and lose revenue) my website to get it approved as official EvE fansite... that irritated me and the other developers a lot. Actually, in 2011 we saw some 50% developers quitting development never to resume it again. That has been a very serious blow to a very, very faithful and dedicated community. Lex Gabinia wrote: With this section you lost me. So WH's are for casual players? Arguably the most lawless and dangerous place (no local, hardcore NPC, no stargates, complicated logistics, etc.) in the game is for casual players? Also release intervals were never part of this discussion. Casual does not necessarily imply BAD. Likewise, content made for people with limited time <> must make a theme park in space. You can make something which is quite hard without requiring you to wake up at 3am and stay up on Teamspeak for 11 hours. WHs are an egregious example of that. Considering I have played most aspects of the game... I found WHs to be way more exciting than playing renter / lone wolf in 0.0. Also, no supercaps spam, no alliance BS and similar toxic gameplay I got so tired of. Lex Gabinia wrote: Finally, since you left out the most relevant portion of my post about changing EVE to cater to a more casual play style and that CCP is run by lying fools I will post it again: The "silver bullet" to fixing EVE is not to just make it like every other MMO except "in space." The simple fact is that CCP did not design THIS game for the casual player. This game can not be changed into a game for the casual player. They are developing other games within the EVE IP to attract these people. I left it out because by agreeing with you (and I do agree with some of that), by keeping EvE "purist enforced", it means EvE is going to lose players till it closes down. Is purism so valuable that even EvE continued existance is less important than that? EvE Online portal \| EvE markets tutorials
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17298	Posted - 2016.08.08 02:47:09 - [1197] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Blanket War decs were already a thing before CCP changed the watchlist. In fact the watch list change barely caused an increase in the wars groups like Marmite were already throwing out and had been throwing out for quite a large number of months. i have hammered this point before and im not about to do it again so ill be brief. mas decs did indeed happen before the buddy list. marmite however had gone through a hilariously public messy and drama filled restructuring shortly before this happened and were remodeling after ourselves. were doing quite a good job of it too. pirat and vendetta were always high on the dec count but that was the exception rather than the rule. there was an immediate and sustained increase in mass wars directly after the buddy list. also, Vimsy, Tora and I said exactly that would happen ,repeatedly months in advance. =]\|[=
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 92	Posted - 2016.08.08 04:29:00 - [1198] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Reasonable stuff... Yeah, just wanted to confirm that I don't equate casual to bad players. I'm more concerned with the loss of negative consequences for bad decisions and the growing desire for instant gratification. I believe that is just not what EVE is about. There are many MMO's which offer this playstyle, and I'd like to see EVE retain it's uniqueness in this regard.
Serene Repose 2609	Posted - 2016.08.08 05:13:02 - [1199] - Quote Can we shoot this thread and put it out of its misery? If you'd only asked if there are "fewer" players. It's obvious the players we have now are "less". We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Geronimo McVain McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc 165	Posted - 2016.08.08 06:29:45 - [1200] - Quote A lot of these problems could be avoided if freighters and mining barges had more options then to rely on Concord. Why not give Mining barges real Weapons? They will still be slow but they will have a real punch and good tank so you can also beef up the belt rats. Freighters could get Ewar abilities to make ganking unreliable. The main problem with mining is, that it is a low-income job. If you add boredom, risk and can flipping it will be stupid to do. So you can give miners more protection (which doesn't involve player action) or you can give them weapons to defend themselves.
Chronos Thiesant Deep Sky Enterprises 6	Posted - 2016.08.08 07:12:53 - [1201] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: regarding me feeling different if miners stopped playing: a big difference between the pve and the pvp crowd is ... ... that the pvp crowd also does pve ... ... while the pve crowd doesnt do pvp at all. this means the pvp crowd is including, while the pve crowd is excluding. they believe that if they stopped mining others wouldnt take their places. thats wrong. its so far from reality alice in wonderland sits with it at a table, drinking tea! if they all stop, prices go up and its perceived as worthwhile again. you have to realize that you are not only not special, you are also easily replaced. Look, I totally get your point that people are more likely to stay if they get emotionally invested in the game. What sold eve to me was my first corp which helped me move all my things to a small lowsec pocket in amarr space where we would camp gates and roam about looking for fights. Some moments which stood out were my corp CEO helping me move all my things in her hauler (would have taken me 10 trips), and when a freighter jumped into our lowsec. Needless to say the freighter pilot instantly regretted his decision. However you don't seem to be thinking through what would actually happen if all these isolationists left. You say prices going up would encourage more to mine, but that requires minerals be more expensive. Totally possible in eves market. Well EVERYTHING is made of minerals, so everything is more expensive. Sound good? Miners are easily replaced, but we are legion. Personally I think a sandbox should allow whatever type of gameplay you want, and it should always be possible for players to interfere with each other. CCP have actually proven again and again they know how to manage different player groups who don't get along. Lots of people here complain about new players wanting instant gratification, but look at what CCP have done with skill injectors. I was first against them but now see they enable certain players to get what they want in a hurry but only at great expense, and only by giving money to an older player. Enterprising players have set up alt farms to take advantage of the change; it benefits everyone to some extent even if they disagree on principle, and opens the game to a new audience. Literally the only thing this game needs is a decent tutorial. I liked the idea a few pages ago where on reaching milestones aura pops up to tell you some relevant tips. Like the "oh you're in a battleship, be mindful that small ships can get under your guns". A better tutorial would actually solve the issue you have as well. New players should absolutely not be encouraged to isolate themselves and should be told early on the impact they can have even in a frigate. I'd even suggest that corps can flag themselves as "accepting fresh capsuleers" and that new players on finishing a basic tutorial get tossed into one of those player corps.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2100	Posted - 2016.08.08 08:13:40 - [1202] - Quote The point is that hisec is a place where casuals go to enjoy the game at their own pace, which is where the largest reduction of players was noticed. My example of a miner who no longer has anyone they know to speak to is evident, this player is a 11 year veteran... So what am I up to, casual like, well I am just making top level PI, log in to re-start my extraction, maybe move some stuff into the production planet, fine tuning here and there, then I log off and go and play another game. That is damn casual Just setting myself a target of about 3 billion worth of the top tier PI products which I will not be selling into the market. It is a sandbox, I can do what I want, and none of you entitled gankers can get in my way at all. I guess I am playing the game wrong? When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 719	Posted - 2016.08.08 08:32:02 - [1203] - Quote Chronos Thiesant wrote: However you don't seem to be thinking through what would actually happen if all these isolationists left. You say prices going up would encourage more to mine, but that requires minerals be more expensive. Totally possible in eves market. Well EVERYTHING is made of minerals, so everything is more expensive. Sound good? Miners are easily replaced, but we are legion. Actually, you don't seem to be using the data that is actually available and has been since Eve Vegas last year showing the state of Eve's economy. It totally supports the view that as people leave, others just pick up the slack. From this dev blog last year by CCP Quant (https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/eve-economy-update-eve-vegas-2015-report/ ): "...contrary to some conclusions that can be drawn from the PCU graph, activity is not going down overall. If we normalize it by unique logons, we rather see those numbers increasing, meaning that those playing now contribute relatively more to the sandbox than the general population in the previous years, which is a great sign..." You can also check the monthly economic reports in the devblogs that demonstrate, with real data, that this is still continuing: February: https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/monthly-economic-report-february-2016/ March: https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/monthly-economic-report-march-2016/ April: https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/monthly-economic-report-april-2016/ May: https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/monthly-economic-report-may-2016/ June: https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/monthly-economic-report-june-2016/ July: https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/monthly-economic-report-july-2016/ During the same period from February to July, the PCU count has been down significantly: https://puu.sh/qtKAS/7a9e0557ba.png So despite the slope of recent months, activity has remained virtually unchanged so far, showing that CCP Quant's conclusion last year (quoted above) is still holding at the moment. Others are picking up the slack. Carebears, just like everyone else, are easily replaced and none of us are more or less important than any one else. So instead of assuming what might 'actually' happen because it suits a particular narritive, you can actually see it from the data.
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 93	Posted - 2016.08.08 09:47:16 - [1204] - Quote I have many doubts carebears or everyone else can be easily replaced in a so difficult, user unfriendly and tutorial-less game like this...
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 720	Posted - 2016.08.08 10:21:30 - [1205] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: I have many doubts carebears or everyone else can be easily replaced in a so difficult, user unfriendly and tutorial-less game like this... The game's 13 years old. Yeah, no one can ever be replaced. This game will never last. The data might be inconvenient, but it shows the story all on its own.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26560	Posted - 2016.08.08 10:28:27 - [1206] - Quote Geronimo McVain wrote: A lot of these problems could be avoided if freighters and mining barges had more options then to rely on Concord. They already have options that don't rely on Concord, they're called friends. Quote: Why not give Mining barges real Weapons? They will still be slow but they will have a real punch and good tank so you can also beef up the belt rats. We'll call them names like Skiff and Procuror. Quote: Freighters could get Ewar abilities to make ganking unreliable. You already have this, it's called a friend in an e-war bonused ship. Quote: The main problem with mining is, that it is a low-income job. If you add boredom, risk and can flipping it will be stupid to do. I mined when can flipping was actually a thing, I mined through hulkageddon, I still mine today; it's only as boring as you make it for yourself. Quote: So you can give miners more protection (which doesn't involve player action) or you can give them weapons to defend themselves. Alternatively miners could provide their own protection, just as people who mine outside hisec often do. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17826	Posted - 2016.08.08 11:30:40 - [1207] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Quote: The main problem with mining is, that it is a low-income job. If you add boredom, risk and can flipping it will be stupid to do. I mined when can flipping was actually a thing, I mined through hulkageddon, I still mine today; it's only as boring as you make it for yourself. To be fair mining is a lot more boring than 4 years ago.
FlipYa The Lezbian Institute Freaks In The Sheets 1	Posted - 2016.08.08 11:37:24 - [1208] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Tao Dolcino wrote: FlipYa wrote: The Bottom Line is: CCP Arrogance. CCP Development is constantly telling them selves: "We've got bigger things to deal with". As other people have said in this thread: CCP is constantly chasing new development into areas no one cares about... while ignoring core game play issues that people actively petition about - only to be ignored. The CCP user base is down by about 40%-50% over 4 years << and here is a clue : THIS IS Your "Bigger Thing(s) To Deal With" CCP can point the finger in any direction they like.... The Bottom Line is: They can't retain legacy users due to things mentioned in this thread.. which will of course... Be: Completely Ignored I agree with you but i'm not sure that CCP is sharing your point of view : maybe they already have agreed to let EVE Online die, that it won't be anymore their main source of money because it's getting old and because it's not casual and mainstream enough. Maybe they are chasing a new illusion with their "Virtual Reality" games. Well, i find the word very adapted to what's happening here. CCP is living in a virtual reality. Thing is it has been their only success. Everything else that has been released has failed to date. Ya, Typically people are only good at 1 thing. Like a One Hit Wonder. I think things Really fell apart for CCP when they went chasing after - Dust 514?? Some 1st Person shooter crap (which actually looked pretty good but ) sent CCP Development resources wildly off course. As subscriptions took a dive in a rage from the user base CCP ultimately issues an apology. But, the damage was done and CCP has limped on ever since. CCP Sacrificed the Jewel of the MMO World by diving into The Whore House of 1st person shooters. Why don't we all just self destruct 50 titans.
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 31912	Posted - 2016.08.08 11:37:58 - [1209] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: I have many doubts carebears or everyone else can be easily replaced in a so difficult, user unfriendly and tutorial-less game like this... This isn't necessarily about new players. Veterans would start mining as well if they'd perceive it as worth it. Their added bonus would be that they'd have fun killing gankers. And they might stop with the "fly a tanky barge" nonsense. The last years have shown how people go the easiest path ... ... which is not only flying a skiff or procurer ... ... but worse, telling everyone to do so. Sure there's still lots of retrivers and (it seems less) mackinaws ... ... put in general people tell miners only to switch to tanks. And we can observe that easily out there. Hey who wants to make a mining corp? "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14390	Posted - 2016.08.08 12:18:52 - [1210] - Quote Chronos Thiesant wrote: Literally the only thing this game needs is a decent tutorial. This would literally be the death of this kind of game. EVE is foremost about creativity and discovery, Tutorials kill creativity. Quote: So, the key points here are that the toy did multiple things, but only one thing (the squeaking) was revealed. For some kids it was explicitly demonstrated and for others it was serendipitously discovered. What the researchers found was that relative to those in other conditions, children who were given instructions on how to make the toy squeak played with it for shorter amounts of time, did fewer unique actions with it, and discovered fewer of the toyGÇÖs other functions. This is why EVe players do things a certain way, because that was how someone taught them. I spent 4 years right clicking on icons to target thens because I didn't know I could control+click to target. Wanna guess how I was 'trained' to target by my buddy who introduced me to EVE? I know people mean well when they make suggestions (like the above "Literally the only thing this game needs is a decent tutorial"), but imo people should think a bit more about their opinions before posting.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 454	Posted - 2016.08.08 12:32:11 - [1211] - Quote How about a 20,000 page instruction manual on every single thing you can do in EVE? TBH they had a short tutorial when I started... Just enough to get you to the rookie career agents... i think I made it as far as step 2 before I closed it and went off to figure things out on my own...
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14390	Posted - 2016.08.08 12:43:18 - [1212] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Carebears, just like everyone else, are easily replaced and none of us are more or less important than any one else. So instead of assuming what might 'actually' happen because it suits a particular narritive, you can actually see it from the data. Lies. Lies and disinformation from Shae! My mother told me I was special! I've heard that tired old line for 9 years, the whole "if it wasn't for people like me you'd have nothing" spiel that gets trotted out every time someone mentions the fact that EVE is a pvp-centric game. My response is generally "ok, quit, show us how bad off we would be if you weren't afk mining rocks in high sec" lol.
Chronos Thiesant Deep Sky Enterprises 6	Posted - 2016.08.08 13:40:23 - [1213] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Carebears, just like everyone else, are easily replaced and none of us are more or less important than any one else. So instead of assuming what might 'actually' happen because it suits a particular narritive, you can actually see it from the data. Lies. Lies and disinformation from Shae! My mother told me I was special! I've heard that tired old line for 9 years, the whole "if it wasn't for people like me you'd have nothing" spiel that gets trotted out every time someone mentions the fact that EVE is a pvp-centric game. My response is generally "ok, quit, show us how bad off we would be if you weren't afk mining rocks in high sec" lol. My point wasn't that carebears are super valuable on their own, like Shae says everyone has just as much right to play how they want as anyone else. What I was saying to Solecist is that carebears exist in large numbers, and if they leave in large numbers the difference will be noticed. At least short term anyway. It is easily conceivable that CCP could make a change that affects these types of players, and since they won't try on their own to adapt they could leave in droves. This would be bad for the game economy and affect the rest of the players in game. On the tutorial point: A better tutorial doesn't necessarily mean hand holding, and a game like eve does need players to learn on their own. The current tutorial shows how to take missions, how to mine, and how to shoot. Just like your link this leads new players to think missions or mining are the game. Like it or not eve is massively different than most online games, and people generally fall back on past experience to know what they should do. Most new players will be from theme park MMOs, so the tutorial needs to say in no uncertain terms "your survival is up to you, you are not the hero, good luck out there". It should point players to player corporations so they can become involved in the social side of the game. They need to be rewarded during the tutorial for being proactive in learning instead of waiting on the tutorial to walk them through it. Edit: also I wonder how the toy experiment would have gone if the teddy could give electric shocks to the kids if they did a certain thing. I'd wager they would stop playing with it very fast.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14390	Posted - 2016.08.08 14:18:36 - [1214] - Quote Damn forum ate my post.
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 31931	Posted - 2016.08.08 15:00:55 - [1215] - Quote Quote: everyone has just as much right to play how they want as anyone else. No one is saying anything else. Well, partly, because everyone's turrets have the right to deny everyone else gameplay. Fact is though, when you're afk, you're not playing. An AFKtar-ish farmer isn't playing. (Drop drones, leave) Ganker: 100% scout reliance, 10sec gameplay, 15min gcc: dock, afk (Though the scout counts as playing actively in between ofc) Miner: Lock roid, engage mining lasers, set alarm, go afk AFKcloaker: Cloak, go afk. All of these aren't really playing the game the vast majority of the time ... ... with the scout being a bit more active than the rest of them. That's not gameplay, it's absense of gameplay. Being afk means you're not playing. Imagine a conference. Just because you're sitting at the table silently ... ... doesn't mean you're actively influencing in a discussion. Saying "i was part of the discussion" in this example would be completely misleading and wrong. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 456	Posted - 2016.08.08 15:17:07 - [1216] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: Imagine a conference. Just because you're sitting at the table silently ... ... doesn't mean you're actively influencing in a discussion. Saying "i was part of the discussion" in this example would be completely misleading and wrong. While I don't actually disagree - just to play devil's advocate here I'll point out a flaw in your argument: Depending on the type of conference, you may be expected to sit quietly and pay attention to 1-2 people making a presentation - and if you have nothing to add to their proposals other than support, there is no need to say anything - it would just be wasting everyone's time. In this case, you are still "part of the discussion" - and in an meaningful way. You supported the proposition, even though you didn't have to say anything. Of course you could also be at the very same conference and fall asleep quietly...In which case of course you did not participate in the discussion in a meaningful way... The fun part is that to an outside observer it is pretty much impossible to tell the difference unless the sleeper does something obvious like falling out of their chair. Bringing it back to EVE - AFK players are almost indistinguishable from non-AFK players in many activities, such as mining and even missioning sometimes. And of course they get angry when they get lumped into the wrong group just because to an outside observer it looked like they were AFK. Also in the end it doesn't make much meaningful difference to their contribution to the game...even though in the case of the non-afk engaged player they have the opportunity to speak up and change something...if they don't take it the end result is much the same.
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 94	Posted - 2016.08.08 15:41:28 - [1217] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Solecist Project wrote: Imagine a conference. Just because you're sitting at the table silently ... ... doesn't mean you're actively influencing in a discussion. Saying "i was part of the discussion" in this example would be completely misleading and wrong. While I don't actually disagree - just to play devil's advocate here I'll point out a flaw in your argument: Depending on the type of conference, you may be expected to sit quietly and pay attention to 1-2 people making a presentation - and if you have nothing to add to their proposals other than support, there is no need to say anything - it would just be wasting everyone's time. In this case, you are still "part of the discussion" - and in an meaningful way. You supported the proposition, even though you didn't have to say anything. Of course you could also be at the very same conference and fall asleep quietly...In which case of course you did not participate in the discussion in a meaningful way... The fun part is that to an outside observer it is pretty much impossible to tell the difference unless the sleeper does something obvious like falling out of their chair. Bringing it back to EVE - AFK players are almost indistinguishable from non-AFK players in many activities, such as mining and even missioning sometimes. And of course they get angry when they get lumped into the wrong group just because to an outside observer it looked like they were AFK. Also in the end it doesn't make much meaningful difference to their contribution to the game...even though in the case of the non-afk engaged player they have the opportunity to speak up and change something...if they don't take it the end result is much the same. May I ask you this? Do you really think that i.e. a player that decides to mine ores for the next 4 hours will stay in front of his pc for four hours pressing dscan and checking local while mining in hisec? Do your really think mentally sane game developers think this mining mechanic is correctly played in front of pc all time? Because giving my honest opinion there is a incredible level of duplicity ( hypochrisy ) in all of this discussion if we are discussing of mining for hours looking your ship still in the middle of the screen while pressing dscan and so on...
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 31937	Posted - 2016.08.08 16:00:03 - [1218] - Quote DirtyForumAlt ... your points are valid ... ... and while my analogy was rather reduced in detail ... ... you're kind of overthinking it. :D But yeah, one can't easily seperate types of afk players from not-actually-afk players ... ... but i don't think that matters. The not-actually-afk ones will reveal themselves. And don't forget that a miner who talks to others while mining is actually contributing to the game. Communication influences society. It's still better than pure silence. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 456	Posted - 2016.08.08 16:00:48 - [1219] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: May I ask you this? Do you really think that i.e. a player that decides to mine ores for the next 4 hours will stay in front of his pc for four hours pressing dscan and checking local while mining in hisec? Do your really think mentally sane game developers think this mining mechanic is correctly played in front of pc all time? Because giving my honest opinion there is a incredible level of duplicity ( hypochrisy ) in all of this discussion if we are discussing of mining for hours looking your ship still in the middle of the screen while pressing dscan and so on... Personally I don't care if they go AFK. I've afk mined myself - I also used to afk haul, even while CODE. was at its most active. There are other precautions you can take to avoid being ganked... Also pressing d-scan or checking local don't have to be done constantly - and can easily be relegated to a 2nd monitor as long as you do something at the physical computer itself... However many miners don't go afk - they talk to corp-mates, socialize, etc. They actually interact with the EVE universe even as they mine for 4 hours...they just do it in a way that an outside observer can't see. That is all i was saying in my post. For many people EVE just becomes a chat room, often for weeks at a time. I've logged in for entires days/weeks and never bothered to undock - but I was still "active" in my own way... EVE is strange that way. Though of course if that is all you do sooner or later you'll rethink paying so much money every month to do it. Thus many such people mine to buy plex, to fund their chat room. The ones who do it intelligently don't even get ganked in the process.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 456	Posted - 2016.08.08 16:12:28 - [1220] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: And don't forget that a miner who talks to others while mining is actually contributing to the game. Communication influences society. It's still better than pure silence. I agree, just pointing out that to most of us there is no visible difference - and many of the miners/afkers that get complained about on the forums actually fall into this category. It is a dull role, but they do have an 'active' niche role in EVE... In their own way.
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 31937	Posted - 2016.08.08 16:29:57 - [1221] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: However many miners don't go afk - they talk to corp-mates, socialize, etc. They actually interact with the EVE universe even as they mine for 4 hours...they just do it in a way that an outside observer can't see. That is all i was saying in my post. For many people EVE just becomes a chat room, often for weeks at a time. I've logged in for entires days/weeks and never bothered to undock - but I was still "active" in my own way... EVE is strange that way. Though of course if that is all you do sooner or later you'll rethink paying so much money every month to do it. Thus many such people mine to buy plex, to fund their chat room. The ones who do it intelligently don't even get ganked in the process. the smartest miners don't use d, they only need to overview to be visible while moving anyway. I'm not seeing how your points matter to what i was saying. Maybe you just want to add things? I mean, i don't recognize them as arguments against or for something. You say non-afk miners aren't afk. That's true! I was only talking about afk people, not non-afk people. Anyone who isn't afk ... isn't afk ... and it'll show one way or another. It doesn't matter if observers perceive him as afk or not ... ... and once observers turn into influencers, it'll be revealed anyway. A chatting miner isn't afk and he's influencing society actively. There's a difference between participating and actively influencing. I'm trying to communicate that we as a society need to move away from some wrong beliefs that hinder us as a whole. They stop us from evolving our culture and cause long term negative effects. Being afk by definition means "not playing" and all arguments people bring up FOR afk play are nonsense ... ... because you can not ever play a game by not playing it. Being logged in doesn't mean you're playing. (The only true exception being the afk cloaker, tbhl because he manages to influence society massively simply through psychological effects. A fascinating exception, if you think about it) hope i got that right, i'm a bit in a hurry. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 583	Posted - 2016.08.08 16:31:01 - [1222] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Do you really think that i.e. a player that decides to mine ores for the next 4 hours will stay in front of his pc for four hours pressing dscan and checking local while mining in hisec? Do your really think mentally sane game developers think this mining mechanic is correctly played in front of pc all time? Because giving my honest opinion there is a incredible level of duplicity ( hypochrisy ) in all of this discussion if we are discussing of mining for hours looking your ship still in the middle of the screen while pressing dscan and so on... What I think, is that mining is best done multiboxing. If you have to scan roids and cycle stripminers left and right, cart the minerals off, keep an eye on your booster and maybe browse the market in the meantime, you're actually doing a lot of stuff while, indeed, not really watching one particular screen.
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 340	Posted - 2016.08.08 16:38:24 - [1223] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: May I ask you this? Do you really think that i.e. a player that decides to mine ores for the next 4 hours will stay in front of his pc for four hours pressing dscan and checking local while mining in hisec? Do your really think mentally sane game developers think this mining mechanic is correctly played in front of pc all time? Because giving my honest opinion there is a incredible level of duplicity ( hypochrisy ) in all of this discussion if we are discussing of mining for hours looking your ship still in the middle of the screen while pressing dscan and so on... Yes. Hell, I do that when I want to do some mining, though I'll admit to relying more on local and experience in my neck of the woods rather than D-Scan. These people decided to follow a career dealing with lines of code rather than dealing with people... I already question their sanity. But to each their own, right? /shrug When I mine, it's because I need something that I can do in EvE while doing something else - usually reading. I also control my industry and market resources remotely while mining, as well as participating in various chats. It doesn't take much to keep an eye on your system. Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26562	Posted - 2016.08.08 17:00:00 - [1224] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Quote: The main problem with mining is, that it is a low-income job. If you add boredom, risk and can flipping it will be stupid to do. I mined when can flipping was actually a thing, I mined through hulkageddon, I still mine today; it's only as boring as you make it for yourself. To be fair mining is a lot more boring than 4 years ago. That's a fair comment and quite probably true, which is why I tend to combine other activities with it, what I don't do is target rock hit f1 and then minimise the client like some do. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 460	Posted - 2016.08.08 17:42:07 - [1225] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: However many miners don't go afk - they talk to corp-mates, socialize, etc. They actually interact with the EVE universe even as they mine for 4 hours...they just do it in a way that an outside observer can't see. That is all i was saying in my post. For many people EVE just becomes a chat room, often for weeks at a time. I've logged in for entires days/weeks and never bothered to undock - but I was still "active" in my own way... EVE is strange that way. Though of course if that is all you do sooner or later you'll rethink paying so much money every month to do it. Thus many such people mine to buy plex, to fund their chat room. The ones who do it intelligently don't even get ganked in the process. the smartest miners don't use d, they only need to overview to be visible while moving anyway. I'm not seeing how your points matter to what i was saying. Maybe you just want to add things? I mean, i don't recognize them as arguments against or for something. You say non-afk miners aren't afk. That's true! I was only talking about afk people, not non-afk people. Anyone who isn't afk ... isn't afk ... and it'll show one way or another. It doesn't matter if observers perceive him as afk or not ... ... and once observers turn into influencers, it'll be revealed anyway. A chatting miner isn't afk and he's influencing society actively. There's a difference between participating and actively influencing. I'm trying to communicate that we as a society need to move away from some wrong beliefs that hinder us as a whole. They stop us from evolving our culture and cause long term negative effects. Being afk by definition means "not playing" and all arguments people bring up FOR afk play are nonsense ... ... because you can not ever play a game by not playing it. Being logged in doesn't mean you're playing. (The only true exception being the afk cloaker, tbhl because he manages to influence society massively simply through psychological effects. A fascinating exception, if you think about it) hope i got that right, i'm a bit in a hurry. TBH those particular comments were in reply to Lucy, not your post But you are correct, I'm not actually disagreeing with you. Just pointing out some things to the other people reading along here, to make them realize that even though all of the miners seem afk - many of them really aren't - some of them really are playing - even if they are indistinguishable from the bots surrounding them to most of the PvP players attempting to interact with them.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 94	Posted - 2016.08.08 18:06:45 - [1226] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: The point is that hisec is a place where casuals go to enjoy the game at their own pace, which is where the largest reduction of players was noticed. My example of a miner who no longer has anyone they know to speak to is evident, this player is a 11 year veteran... So what am I up to, casual like, well I am just making top level PI, log in to re-start my extraction, maybe move some stuff into the production planet, fine tuning here and there, then I log off and go and play another game. That is damn casual Just setting myself a target of about 3 billion worth of the top tier PI products which I will not be selling into the market. It is a sandbox, I can do what I want, and none of you entitled gankers can get in my way at all. I guess I am playing the game wrong? You are not playing wrong, and, more importantly, this post is not asking for game foundation altering changes to support your playstyle. The "wrong" that at least I refer to is those types of requests.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5765	Posted - 2016.08.08 18:17:19 - [1227] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Bringing it back to EVE - AFK players are almost indistinguishable from non-AFK players in many activities, such as mining and even missioning sometimes. And of course they get angry when they get lumped into the wrong group just because to an outside observer it looked like they were AFK. I have two points to talk about this. I have played a lot (for a decade I could play 14+ hours a day), with many accounts and got experience in several EvE's fields. In particular, I have been hit by the screaming differences in EvE minigames design. About mining, I used to have my own Orca + freighter + multi-exhumer fleet (I posted my accounts usage some pages ago). Best design ever is in NPC nullsec and WHs and FW small scale roaming, it's vastly superior to ANY other MMO experience including today's sci-fi alternatives (which also, have extensively played). On the other side, EvE's mining (as I say since 8 years) is the worst piece of manure ever conceived. Like the similarly bad L4 missioning, it's literally bottable content . CCP indeed had to decimate thousands of bots in the past. Sure, a guy CAN make mining somewhat more active by inventing ways to stay awake / chat with friends etc but the mechanic per se is just sick. In 2 EvE competitors (one is a long living MMO), mining is much more (re)active, you are constantly going to do stuff. In one of those games you can be also attacked all the time both by deadly (i.e. not easily ignored) NPCs and - of course - players and you can kill them 1 v 1 (no sitting duck syndrome). In the other, you carry multiple sensors to activate and manage, constantly re-evaluate the area because it depletes fast, move on etc. etc. Both of those competitors, fill in a ship hold in a relatively short time span and then you have to do stuff. EvE is all unlike that. There have been EvE versions where I could park a ship for 42 or so minutes and let it auto-play. This means, defective game design imo. Players can "patch" this design by scanning (welcome to ice mining though), circling around roids, running in pretend-anti-gank patterns and so on. But that's just about somebody being bored enough and screaming to do something. Second game design defect: why do I write: "But that's just about somebody being bored enough and screaming to do something?" Because I have also paid mercs to defend my mining fleet. Paid mercs to kill competition's mining fleets. And personally ganked people's mining ships. What do the above activities have in common? They ARE content, the epic EvE content everybody fills their mouth with. Well... what I have found out is... "getting a friend" is utter rubbish. Due to mining bad design, those friends need to stay at top notch attention for hours, including PAINFUL constant checking hi sec local chat for known and unknown hostiles. This can be mitigated for roids mining, but ice mining forces fleets to sit into high ships turnover systems. Typical pro mining (I am talking about 2-20 billions made with mining a month) involves 8+ hours a day for the whole month. Find me a friend... no... find me a marthyr who is going to keep 110% attentive for this duration. I have known many, but nobody would submit himself to such torture. That's where mercs come in. Most mercs corp downright refuse miners defend jobs (I have played "borrowed merc" for a bit with a bunch of German friends, it's incredibly fun!!! ) because they are NOT fun and generally bad paid. Of course hiring mercs has a cost too, but let's ignore this for a moment. The hard truth is: even with mercs you cannot make sure you don't lose ships. A determined ganker IS going to take down at least 1 low EHP exhumer. Obvious remedies is to sacrifice exhumer efficiency for tank and / or use a different, natively high EHP ship. Other measures is using smart orbiting / alignment etc.... but the ganker is not stupid, he's not going to attack when you are fully attentive. Even aligned, you ARE going to be unable to be 100% attentive for 8h a day. I have seen ganks going through mercs and ewar drones, there's nothing able to stop a determined disruptor (often a competitor's merc(s)). Sure, from now on that pilot is blacklisted and blah blah but right now you are sitting with a popped ship and mercs to pay. Even worse, if you put 3-4 coordinated gankers, just forget defending ships, even with double the mercs than the gankers. You are going to lose 1-2. Wasn't having "friends" and high efficiency / low EHP high micromanagement ships (i.e. Hulk) the "pro way" to play EvE? No, in the end it's not worth it. Checked and re-checked on both sides of the fight. So: - you played abiding to best EvE practices, finding friends / mercs. - you are orbiting / staying aligned => calculating costs : benefits : effort you are marginally more effective than a noob in an AFK Skiff. This imo is another EvE game design flaw. Friends in hi sec MUST be put in position to: - provide large advantage, not just some advantage. In defense, not just offense like it's now. - play. That is, if I bring friends, then they want to play (duh!), not to sit down semi-AFK themselves for 8 hours). Make mining take less time like in the other games, so the mining squad goes in with the defenders squad. Do their stuff say in half an hour. Then off they go, for the day. Put some max limits / timer on roids or something so this half hour worth of job can't be duplicated for hours and hours and voil+á, we have meaningful and fun gameplay for everybody. EvE Online portal \| EvE markets tutorials
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 460	Posted - 2016.08.08 18:29:19 - [1228] - Quote Sure....we could redesign the entire PvE side of the game from the ground up...but 13+ years in I don't think it is very likely... And one can hardly blame the players for playing the game as it exists...If they enjoy it, for whatever reason...
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5765	Posted - 2016.08.08 18:30:20 - [1229] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Sure....we could redesign the entire PvE side of the game from the ground up...but 13+ years in I don't think it is very likely... And one can hardly blame the players for playing the game as it exists...If they enjoy it, for whatever reason... The point is, apparently the "if they enjoy it" portion is showing some issue EvE Online portal \| EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5765	Posted - 2016.08.08 18:33:33 - [1230] - Quote Also, I indeed foresee botters really getting belly ache if CCP made those relatively small changes (after all it's 2 timers!!). Everybody human else who want to play and have fun, are going to get an interactive minigame after 13 years. 13 years of a feature sucking, does not justify keeping it sucking. Or does it? EvE Online portal \| EvE markets tutorials
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 460	Posted - 2016.08.08 18:40:23 - [1231] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Also, I indeed foresee botters really getting belly ache if CCP made those relatively small changes (after all it's 2 timers!!). Everybody human else who want to play and have fun, are going to get an interactive minigame after 13 years. 13 years of a feature sucking, does not justify keeping it sucking. Or does it? I imagine it depends how many people are using mining as a way to pay for "Chat Room Online" to keep in touch with their friends - since making it an active mini-game (particularly one that required friends being physically there with you) would drive all such players out of mining, and possibly out of the game if they weren't willing to start paying subscription fees...
Chronos Thiesant Deep Sky Enterprises 6	Posted - 2016.08.08 19:01:33 - [1232] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Also, I indeed foresee botters really getting belly ache if CCP made those relatively small changes (after all it's 2 timers!!). Everybody human else who want to play and have fun, are going to get an interactive minigame after 13 years. 13 years of a feature sucking, does not justify keeping it sucking. Or does it? I imagine it depends how many people are using mining as a way to pay for "Chat Room Online" to keep in touch with their friends - since making it an active mini-game (particularly one that required friends being physically there with you) would drive all such players out of mining, and possibly out of the game if they weren't willing to start paying subscription fees... Maybe they could switch from mining to PI for their chat room online fix? They are about as active as each other.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 460	Posted - 2016.08.08 19:08:38 - [1233] - Quote Chronos Thiesant wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Also, I indeed foresee botters really getting belly ache if CCP made those relatively small changes (after all it's 2 timers!!). Everybody human else who want to play and have fun, are going to get an interactive minigame after 13 years. 13 years of a feature sucking, does not justify keeping it sucking. Or does it? I imagine it depends how many people are using mining as a way to pay for "Chat Room Online" to keep in touch with their friends - since making it an active mini-game (particularly one that required friends being physically there with you) would drive all such players out of mining, and possibly out of the game if they weren't willing to start paying subscription fees... Maybe they could switch from mining to PI for their chat room online fix? They are about as active as each other. PI is quite a bit harder to set up and to keep running if you want to PLEX with that as your sole source of income... edit: I mean even in the EVE universe people figure out how to mine an asteroid within their first hour or so generally.... I still don't know how to "properly" set up a PI network - as I quit bothering to care when they deleted all my planets from the original PI release and re-released it in a much more complicated and annoying format...
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5768	Posted - 2016.08.08 19:33:12 - [1234] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Chronos Thiesant wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Also, I indeed foresee botters really getting belly ache if CCP made those relatively small changes (after all it's 2 timers!!). Everybody human else who want to play and have fun, are going to get an interactive minigame after 13 years. 13 years of a feature sucking, does not justify keeping it sucking. Or does it? I imagine it depends how many people are using mining as a way to pay for "Chat Room Online" to keep in touch with their friends - since making it an active mini-game (particularly one that required friends being physically there with you) would drive all such players out of mining, and possibly out of the game if they weren't willing to start paying subscription fees... Maybe they could switch from mining to PI for their chat room online fix? They are about as active as each other. PI is quite a bit harder to set up and to keep running if you want to PLEX with that as your sole source of income... edit: I mean even in the EVE universe people figure out how to mine an asteroid within their first hour or so generally.... I still don't know how to "properly" set up a PI network - as I quit bothering to care when they deleted all my planets from the original PI release and re-released it in a much more complicated and annoying format... There are both websites and apps providing step by step instructions about how to setup the various extraction / production combos and how to layout them for best efficiency vs power employed. EvE Online portal \| EvE markets tutorials
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 460	Posted - 2016.08.08 19:38:47 - [1235] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: There are both websites and apps providing step by step instructions about how to setup the various extraction / production combos and how to layout them for best efficiency vs power employed. And if I wanted to spend a few hours setting up a PI network and then a few more hours every week hauling expensive PI materials through whatever hostile space I chose to set it up in to get a decent return and I found or conquered a friendly POCO (or at least one with a reasonable tax rate), maybe I'd bother to look at them... And if that is your thing - then more power to you... But uh...For me? No thanks...I'll stick to blowing up idiots and looting the PI goods from their wreckage for myself, personally... And most high-sec miners choose that profession because it is simple and uncomplicated - so I doubt it is a viable career choice for the majority of them as well... The ones who are interested in doing PI already do it - in addition to their mining.... So taking away one of their sources of income and telling them to just make it up using the other one? Doesn't help them...
Linus Gorp Ministry of Propaganda and Morale Black Marker 343	Posted - 2016.08.08 20:13:08 - [1236] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: There are both websites and apps providing step by step instructions about how to setup the various extraction / production combos and how to layout them for best efficiency vs power employed. And if I wanted to spend a few hours setting up a PI network and then a few more hours every week hauling expensive PI materials through whatever hostile space I chose to set it up in to get a decent return and I found or conquered a friendly POCO (or at least one with a reasonable tax rate), maybe I'd bother to look at them... And if that is your thing - then more power to you... But uh...For me? No thanks...I'll stick to blowing up idiots and looting the PI goods from their wreckage for myself, personally... And most high-sec miners choose that profession because it is simple and uncomplicated - so I doubt it is a viable career choice for the majority of them as well... The ones who are interested in doing PI already do it - in addition to their mining.... So taking away one of their sources of income and telling them to just make it up using the other one? Doesn't help them... I do PI but I haven't mined in like a decade. Set it up once. Runs on a 14-day cycle and I restart it whenever I can be bothered, which is like once every 3 months ;) Don't know why I bother at all.. Same with R&D agents.. Last time I talked to those was probably 4 years ago. When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5092	Posted - 2016.08.08 20:16:46 - [1237] - Quote Chronos Thiesant wrote: Regardless of why people choose to mine or mission, or whatever other boring activity, he does have a point. These players do still directly contribute to your eve gameplay. Maybe you are an explorer in nullsec and find an A-type invuln. Who is going to buy that? One possibility is a mission runner blinging his favourite mission ship. Without him the demand is lower and so is the isk you can expect to make. True, but that does not grant them special standings in the gaming community. Quote: Another example, you are a suicide ganker looking to gank for as cheap as possible so you can afford more ganks. Who provides the ships you will use? Who provides the materials in the first place? Yes it is these loner-type players once again. The industrialist who is paid for what he provides. Again, no special standing. Quote: Sure you can argue that eve is better played with other people (which is just like your opinion, man), but if these miners / missioners / whatever all stopped playing you would feel the difference. Eve is a complex game with a real functional economy requiring many different roles to make the wheels turn. I want it to stay this way, with all the depth and complexity it already has. Nobody is saying they should stop. However, it would be nice if they understood the nature of the game you are playing. 1. Eve is a sandbox game. 2. Do what you want. 3. However, if you are imprudent, either via ignorance or just not caring, somebody may very well show you how imprudent you were by blowing up/taking your stuff. And we have people in this very thread saying, "I don't like that." That, by definition, is an example of the person playing the wrong game. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5092	Posted - 2016.08.08 20:22:19 - [1238] - Quote Geronimo McVain wrote: A lot of these problems could be avoided if freighters and mining barges had more options then to rely on Concord. Why not give Mining barges real Weapons? They will still be slow but they will have a real punch and good tank so you can also beef up the belt rats. Freighters could get Ewar abilities to make ganking unreliable. The main problem with mining is, that it is a low-income job. If you add boredom, risk and can flipping it will be stupid to do. So you can give miners more protection (which doesn't involve player action) or you can give them weapons to defend themselves. For a freighter: Fit a tank. Get a scout. Get a webber. Use standings to help identify potential gankers. For mining ships: Fit a tank. Use standings. Watch local. Don't sit there fat and dumb. Train for a procuror/skiff if you want to semi-afk, but FFS fit a tank. Look, options. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5092	Posted - 2016.08.08 20:24:33 - [1239] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: The point is that hisec is a place where casuals go to enjoy the game at their own pace, which is where the largest reduction of players was noticed. My example of a miner who no longer has anyone they know to speak to is evident, this player is a 11 year veteran... So what am I up to, casual like, well I am just making top level PI, log in to re-start my extraction, maybe move some stuff into the production planet, fine tuning here and there, then I log off and go and play another game. That is damn casual Just setting myself a target of about 3 billion worth of the top tier PI products which I will not be selling into the market. It is a sandbox, I can do what I want, and none of you entitled gankers can get in my way at all. I guess I am playing the game wrong? Look everyone! Dracvlad built a nice straw man! "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5092	Posted - 2016.08.08 20:28:00 - [1240] - Quote FlipYa wrote: Ya, Typically people are only good at 1 thing. Like a One Hit Wonder. I think things Really fell apart for CCP when they went chasing after - Dust 514?? Some 1st Person shooter crap (which actually looked pretty good but ) sent CCP Development resources wildly off course. As subscriptions took a dive in a rage from the user base CCP ultimately issues an apology. But, the damage was done and CCP has limped on ever since. CCP Sacrificed the Jewel of the MMO World by diving into The Whore House of 1st person shooters. Why don't we all just self destruct 50 titans. To be fair, producing consecutive hits is not easy. If picking the "hits" were easy we'd all be billionaires, we aren't so it isn't. But yes, it seems CCP has kind of shot themselves in the foot...a few times. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 463	Posted - 2016.08.08 20:28:38 - [1241] - Quote Realistically back when I did (on a limited scale) market trades/hauling on a scale large enough to need a freighter, my tactics were even simpler than that: #1) Fit a tank - duh #2) Don't ridiculously over-load the freighter to the point that people are going to make a special effort to kill you #3) IF possible, avoid uedama/niarja - if not, oh well #4) Pick a non-peak-ganking time *******************THIS ONE IS THE BIGGY***************************** #5) Autopilot #6) Go AFK, do whatever #7) Unload/sell the cargo in a few hours when it arrives #8) Profit I know it is a lot of steps - but you will notice that most of them aren't actually actions, just specific lack of doing stupid things Also if you have a very high value but small volume cargo - there are some ridiculously over-tanked ships in this game for that sort of hauling as well - I have no idea why anybody hauls blueprints (among other small valuable things) in shuttles or industrials....
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5092	Posted - 2016.08.08 20:33:05 - [1242] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: Quote: everyone has just as much right to play how they want as anyone else. No one is saying anything else. Well, partly, because everyone's turrets have the right to deny everyone else gameplay. Fact is though, when you're afk, you're not playing. An AFKtar-ish farmer isn't playing. (Drop drones, leave) Ganker: 100% scout reliance, 10sec gameplay, 15min gcc: dock, afk (Though the scout counts as playing actively in between ofc) Miner: Lock roid, engage mining lasers, set alarm, go afk AFKcloaker: Cloak, go afk. All of these aren't really playing the game the vast majority of the time ... ... with the scout being a bit more active than the rest of them. That's not gameplay, it's absense of gameplay. Being afk means you're not playing. Imagine a conference. Just because you're sitting at the table silently ... ... doesn't mean you're actively influencing in a discussion. Saying "i was part of the discussion" in this example would be completely misleading and wrong. In the instance of the docked ganker and the AFK cloaker they are having very little impact on the game, IMO. The first, none at all, the second he only has the impact you let him have on you. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5092	Posted - 2016.08.08 20:50:43 - [1243] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: May I ask you this? Do you really think that i.e. a player that decides to mine ores for the next 4 hours will stay in front of his pc for four hours pressing dscan and checking local while mining in hisec? Do your really think mentally sane game developers think this mining mechanic is correctly played in front of pc all time? Because giving my honest opinion there is a incredible level of duplicity ( hypochrisy ) in all of this discussion if we are discussing of mining for hours looking your ship still in the middle of the screen while pressing dscan and so on... Well, if you are determined to reduce your probability of loss to zero, then yeah, that is what you'll have to do. Or you could accept the fact that periodically you may lose a ship and in which case you don't have go insane doing that kind of stuff. Of course, oddly enough people do mine in NS and don't go insane....maybe you should look at what they are doing vs. what you are doing and change your game play? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 31942	Posted - 2016.08.08 20:58:25 - [1244] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Chronos Thiesant wrote: Regardless of why people choose to mine or mission, or whatever other boring activity, he does have a point. These players do still directly contribute to your eve gameplay. Maybe you are an explorer in nullsec and find an A-type invuln. Who is going to buy that? One possibility is a mission runner blinging his favourite mission ship. Without him the demand is lower and so is the isk you can expect to make. True, but that does not grant them special standings in the gaming community. Quote: Another example, you are a suicide ganker looking to gank for as cheap as possible so you can afford more ganks. Who provides the ships you will use? Who provides the materials in the first place? Yes it is these loner-type players once again. The industrialist who is paid for what he provides. Again, no special standing. Quote: Sure you can argue that eve is better played with other people (which is just like your opinion, man), but if these miners / missioners / whatever all stopped playing you would feel the difference. Eve is a complex game with a real functional economy requiring many different roles to make the wheels turn. I want it to stay this way, with all the depth and complexity it already has. Nobody is saying they should stop. However, it would be nice if they understood the nature of the game you are playing. 1. Eve is a sandbox game. 2. Do what you want. 3. However, if you are imprudent, either via ignorance or just not caring, somebody may very well show you how imprudent you were by blowing up/taking your stuff. And we have people in this very thread saying, "I don't like that." That, by definition, is an example of the person playing the wrong game. He may attempt to avoid. That's a right everyone has. It's like people don't understand freedom ... ... and rather seek "guidance" and "rules" in exchange for protection. It's a right people ignore. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Hardin Stiff State War Academy Caldari State 3	Posted - 2016.08.08 20:59:16 - [1245] - Quote I don't think it has anything to do with plex prices . Speaking for myself if the game is good , and enjoyable to play , I will pay the monthly fee . I have only payed for a month of game time with a plex once in all these years . Adding in these Serpentis / Angels activities ( They don't even attack you in a belt if you are mining ) with no "incentive loot" is lame . I have been playing this game since open beta , and since the last few years of constant nerfing / buffing , and bitching about miners / industrialist , or anybody that really doesn't want to pvp . ( This game wasn't like this when I played it earlier in my life ) I am about ready to give my stuff away to a brand new noob . Yes , this is an alt .
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 31942	Posted - 2016.08.08 21:20:55 - [1246] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: In the instance of the docked ganker and the AFK cloaker they are having very little impact on the game, IMO. The first, none at all, the second he only has the impact you let him have on you. that's true. It wouldn't have to be that way though. Not saying it serves any purpose beyond entertaining others, tbh. I did that. GCC is tortue. i rather risked getting podded. Winners got 10 million isk. Was a great show back when hek wasn't dead. like, so dead it hurt. Below 80 during primetime. it died a slow, cruel death. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5093	Posted - 2016.08.08 21:22:23 - [1247] - Quote Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: May I ask you this? Do you really think that i.e. a player that decides to mine ores for the next 4 hours will stay in front of his pc for four hours pressing dscan and checking local while mining in hisec? Do your really think mentally sane game developers think this mining mechanic is correctly played in front of pc all time? Because giving my honest opinion there is a incredible level of duplicity ( hypochrisy ) in all of this discussion if we are discussing of mining for hours looking your ship still in the middle of the screen while pressing dscan and so on... Yes. Hell, I do that when I want to do some mining, though I'll admit to relying more on local and experience in my neck of the woods rather than D-Scan. These people decided to follow a career dealing with lines of code rather than dealing with people... I already question their sanity. But to each their own, right? /shrug When I mine, it's because I need something that I can do in EvE while doing something else - usually reading. I also control my industry and market resources remotely while mining, as well as participating in various chats. It doesn't take much to keep an eye on your system. Gadget You could...you know use something like Dotlan to get an idea of how often miners get ganked in a particular system and when. And if you are on comms....and you are mining together, then you should all be watching local. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26564	Posted - 2016.08.08 21:26:14 - [1248] - Quote Hardin Stiff wrote: I don't think it has anything to do with plex prices . Speaking for myself if the game is good , and enjoyable to play , I will pay the monthly fee . I have only payed for a month of game time with a plex once in all these years . Adding in these Serpentis / Angels activities ( They don't even attack you in a belt if you are mining ) with no "incentive loot" is lame . I have been playing this game since open beta , and since the last few years of constant nerfing / buffing , and bitching about miners / industrialist , or anybody that really doesn't want to pvp . ( This game wasn't like this when I played it earlier in my life ) The game has just became a big whine fest , with pvp'ers on one side whining because they can't kill any pve'ers because they won't leave high sec . And the pve'ers on the other side whining about getting ganked in high sec by catalyst and tornados . I am about ready to give my stuff away to a brand new noob . Yes , this is an alt . Not wanting to PvP isn't a problem as such, I don't want to PvP but I accept that it may happen to me and plan for it; I don't get much grief for it either, the grief that I do get tends not to come from mercs and gankers. IMHO the problem is that some expect or want to be "safe" from PvP without putting any effort in to making it happen, that to me is just wrong. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5093	Posted - 2016.08.08 21:28:11 - [1249] - Quote So using Dotlan and Zkill I found 3 systems where player ship losses have been very low for the last 48 hours, and damn few CODE. ganks. Goddamn that was so hard. I worked up a sweat. I think I might need a nap. Found a fourth...now I really need a nap. The effort.... "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5093	Posted - 2016.08.09 07:29:24 - [1250] - Quote Was it something I said...that dodging CODE. and war decs is actually not that hard and people complaining about them are indeed just not putting forth much effort? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Jessica Starblaze Rookie Help 0	Posted - 2016.08.09 08:04:12 - [1251] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: May I ask you this? Do your really think mentally sane game developers think this mining mechanic is correctly played in front of pc all time? The funny part is: back in the days before mining ships with huge cargo holds existed you actually were forced to sit in front of your pc the whole time, because you had to unload your cargo after every mining cycle.
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 583	Posted - 2016.08.09 08:05:02 - [1252] - Quote Every thread, there are less posters caring, why?? Because it's impossible to leave highsec. Unable to talk about anything else. Heard it all ten times before. Maybe the rest of us were too busy shooting stuff to post? idk man. I had fun playing EvE tonight and I hope y'all did too To the nay-sayers ... potatoes gonna potate.
Chronos Thiesant Deep Sky Enterprises 7	Posted - 2016.08.09 09:38:07 - [1253] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Every thread, there are less posters caring, why?? Because it's impossible to leave highsec. Unable to talk about anything else. Heard it all ten times before. Maybe the rest of us were too busy shooting stuff to post? idk man. I had fun playing EvE tonight and I hope y'all did too To the nay-sayers ... potatoes gonna potate. People seem to, wrongly, think of eve security as sort of like Runescape. Highsec being totally safe, and the rest being the wilderness. People have this reflex that "I'm not a leet pro, so I should stay where it's safe". This is why you see so many posts calling for buffs to concord/ nerfs to ganking. These people do see crime in highsec as a flaw in the programming. In fact people should think of the whole of eve as wilderness. Watch a nature documentary and see how close it matches things you've seen in game; it's quite funny actually. Highsec is in many ways more dangerous than other areas, simply because it is harder to tell what people's intentions are. At least if you're mining in null, you know anyone not friendly will try kill you. The eve tutorial needs to make clear to new players that concord are not bodyguards, they simply provide consequence. If someone decides to kill you, they will, unless you can stop them.
Geronimo McVain McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc 165	Posted - 2016.08.09 10:22:59 - [1254] - Quote Jessica Starblaze wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: May I ask you this? Do your really think mentally sane game developers think this mining mechanic is correctly played in front of pc all time? The funny part is: back in the days before mining ships with huge cargo holds existed you actually were forced to sit in front of your pc the whole time, because you had to unload your cargo after every mining cycle. So what is interesting in warping around and targetting astroids? IMHO project discovery is the only thing that makes mining acceptable. The problem with mining is that you have nothing to do and more important nothing important to do. In missions you have to check your Cap, Tank, ammo etc and it makes a difference if you do it or not because you may pop. While mining if you let your strip miner stop you just get less money. The element of danger is missing completely and so you don't have to pay attention=boredom
Jessica Starblaze Rookie Help 1	Posted - 2016.08.09 11:50:05 - [1255] - Quote Geronimo McVain wrote: Jessica Starblaze wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: May I ask you this? Do your really think mentally sane game developers think this mining mechanic is correctly played in front of pc all time? The funny part is: back in the days before mining ships with huge cargo holds existed you actually were forced to sit in front of your pc the whole time, because you had to unload your cargo after every mining cycle. So what is interesting in warping around and targetting astroids? IMHO project discovery is the only thing that makes mining acceptable. The problem with mining is that you have nothing to do and more important nothing important to do. In missions you have to check your Cap, Tank, ammo etc and it makes a difference if you do it or not because you may pop. While mining if you let your strip miner stop you just get less money. The element of danger is missing completely and so you don't have to pay attention=boredom You are missing out one part. In the time I am talking about there were no strip miners. And mining was just a lot more interective. Sure just unloading your cargo 2 times per minute is a tedious task, still it did not allow any real afk gameplay if you wanted to be even half way efficient. On top of that there were not that many people with multiple accounts and mining efficiently actually still required working as a team and the social interaction made it a lot less boring as well. Still the main point I was making that the way mining was in the early days you had to sit in front of the pc the whole time if you wanted to get anywhere with mining. So I guess the devs back then were not sane ;).
helana Tsero Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 581	Posted - 2016.08.09 12:02:53 - [1256] - Quote I wanted Captains Quarters. I didn't need a fps inside or meeting rooms. I would have been happy with - a shelf to display heads of pvp kills. - a trophy rack for 1000 pvp kills, 5000 missions runs etc etc - some content on the screens like a monthly incharacter eve news show on player content in game and how to get involved. Essentially CQ would have helped memorialize my playing experience Seeing as CCP is clearly not interested in that.. having disabled CQ from citadels.. I may join the ranks unsubbed. and I know alot of current players who feel the same. "...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave." \| zoonr-Korsairs \| Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" \| Rafeau \|
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 586	Posted - 2016.08.09 13:08:39 - [1257] - Quote Geronimo McVain wrote: The problem with mining is that you have nothing to do and more important nothing important to do. The element of danger is missing completely and so you don't have to pay attention=boredom I propose asteroid collisions cause damage, and the miner needs to steer his vessel through like an old game of Asteroids (or Galactix)! It'll be fun I promise
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 470	Posted - 2016.08.09 13:10:59 - [1258] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Geronimo McVain wrote: The problem with mining is that you have nothing to do and more important nothing important to do. The element of danger is missing completely and so you don't have to pay attention=boredom I propose asteroid collisions cause damage, and the miner needs to steer his vessel through like an old game of Asteroids (or Galactix)! It'll be fun I promise Forget asteroid collisions - all collisions should cause damage. Lets get some realism into this game!!! It could be based on mass/speed/etc - so a rookie ship would barely scratch your paint, a battleship would flatten you. And either way Concord could show up to decide who is at fault and issue the appropriate citations in high sec, to keep people there happy...
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2101	Posted - 2016.08.09 13:48:56 - [1259] - Quote This new contract system makes it easy to scam people in terms of citadels access, would you gankers define this as a nerf to ganking, but a buff to courier scamming. Also the increase in courier contract size to 1.2m m3 to fit in a freighter with cargo expanders is definitely a buff to ganking. This will be interesting to watch... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Geronimo McVain McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc 167	Posted - 2016.08.09 13:54:19 - [1260] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Geronimo McVain wrote: The problem with mining is that you have nothing to do and more important nothing important to do. The element of danger is missing completely and so you don't have to pay attention=boredom I propose asteroid collisions cause damage, and the miner needs to steer his vessel through like an old game of Asteroids (or Galactix)! It'll be fun I promise Forget asteroid collisions - all collisions should cause damage. Lets get some realism into this game!!! It could be based on mass/speed/etc - so a rookie ship would barely scratch your paint, a battleship would flatten you. And either way Concord could show up to decide who is at fault and issue the appropriate citations in high sec, to keep people there happy... Yeah, and Concord will issue tickets for parking in the wrong place to all gatecampers/stationgankers. After the 10th ticket your Pilot licence is revoked and you have to use a spacecycle for a week. I like the idea, I just couldn't stand the whining of the gankers about nerfing bumping and killing all that content.
Geronimo McVain McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc 168	Posted - 2016.08.09 13:58:08 - [1261] - Quote Jessica Starblaze wrote: You are missing out one part. In the time I am talking about there were no strip miners. And mining was just a lot more interactive. Sure just unloading your cargo 2 times per minute is a tedious task, still it did not allow any real afk gameplay if you wanted to be even half way efficient. On top of that there were not that many people with multiple accounts and mining efficiently actually still required working as a team and the social interaction made it a lot less boring as well. Still the main point I was making: the way mining was in the early days you had to sit in front of the pc the whole time if you wanted to get anywhere with mining. So I guess the devs back then were not sane ;). I think it was done to keep the econemy intact because they had not enough miners/Minerals but they overdid it. But just klicking to keep klicking isn't really the way to make mining thrilling. Without the element of danger there is no thrill.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 470	Posted - 2016.08.09 14:01:42 - [1262] - Quote Geronimo McVain wrote: Without the element of danger there is no thrill. This may come as a shock to you...but people don't get into mining in EVE because they are thrill-seeking...
Ceres Starshine Aliastra Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2016.08.09 16:20:04 - [1263] - Quote I wanted a fresh start buying the 5 month offered package. I find my carrier in a hostile station. Gm refused to move it to low sec. As i have no friends playing I opened my second account to get aout of there. At the end I kinda frustrated and quit for good...
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 472	Posted - 2016.08.09 16:22:30 - [1264] - Quote Ceres Starshine wrote: I wanted a fresh start buying the 5 month offered package. I find my carrier in a hostile station. Gm refused to move it to low sec. As i have no friends playing I opened my second account to get aout of there. At the end I kinda frustrated and quit for good... Ah sov space... This is where you just sneak into the region in an interceptor and put it up for sale - then spam their populated systems with the contract until someone buys it. Then go re-buy it elsewhere. Annoying? Yep. Going to lose a bit of money? Yep. But that has been the fire-sale tradition in sov space forever As for the petition - working as intended.
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 31978	Posted - 2016.08.09 16:49:46 - [1265] - Quote Ceres Starshine wrote: I wanted a fresh start buying the 5 month offered package. I find my carrier in a hostile station. Gm refused to move it to low sec. As i have no friends playing I opened my second account to get aout of there. At the end I kinda frustrated and quit for good... hard to believe. when you unsub and get stuck at a hostile station after returning ... ... GMs usually move you with at least one ship and everything you can put into it. assuming no alts used in that time, of course. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 31978	Posted - 2016.08.09 16:50:37 - [1266] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Geronimo McVain wrote: Without the element of danger there is no thrill. This may come as a shock to you...but people don't get into mining in EVE because they are thrill-seeking... maybe they should. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7880	Posted - 2016.08.09 17:16:00 - [1267] - Quote Where it up to meGäó there would never have been any players flying any non-combatant vessels. It's a bit of a contradiction that this "It's a PVP Game! HURF BLURF!" has non-combatant ships. All mining and hauling would be done by NPCs, but if any player wanted to do those things, they would have to purchase those ships and hire the crews for them and then give them orders. And like the NPC couriers we see outside of the stations, they could be fired on by anybody. In a pre-crimewatch approach an antagonist becomes flashy red to the owner of an NPC ship under attack. So if you wanted to mine and haul, you had to be just as good at PVP as the people wanting to blow stuff up. The NPC ships would have been "Nostromo sized", or Pillar of Autumn size (from the inside at least - that run was way longer than the ship). It would take a fleet to kill them and it would take a while. It would have also made botting meaningless as content that screamed to be botted would have been botted out of the box, but you had to be ready to defend them from players and NPC pirates alike. There would be no "fire and forget" involved. And those operating in deep null behind intel channels and gank pipelines would be dealing with both players and NPCs in dreads. (that is, we would not have had to wait this long for pirate dreads) . But long ago someone said "let there be sheep" with a hope that Stockholm Syndrome would be something paying players would want to experience so hence the high turnover and this hunter and hunted thing. A good PVP time could have been had by all. Another game might get it differently in the future someday. But that's the way I would have done it. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Joia Crenca Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 353	Posted - 2016.08.09 17:26:36 - [1268] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Where it up to meGäó there would never have been any players flying any non-combatant vessels. It's a bit of a contradiction that this "It's a PVP Game! HURF BLURF!" has non-combatant ships. All mining and hauling would be done by NPCs, but if any player wanted to do those things, they would have to purchase those ships and hire the crews for them and then give them orders. And like the NPC couriers we see outside of the stations, they could be fired on by anybody. In a pre-crimewatch approach an antagonist becomes flashy red to the owner of an NPC ship under attack. So if you wanted to mine and haul, you had to be just as good at PVP as the people wanting to blow stuff up. The NPC ships would have been "Nostromo sized", or Pillar of Autumn size (from the inside at least - that run was way longer than the ship). It would take a fleet to kill them and it would take a while. It would have also made botting meaningless as content that screamed to be botted would have been botted out of the box, but you had to be ready to defend them from players and NPC pirates alike. There would be no "fire and forget" involved. And those operating in deep null behind intel channels and gank pipelines would be dealing with both players and NPCs in dreads. (that is, we would not have had to wait this long for pirate dreads) . But long ago someone said "let there be sheep" with a hope that Stockholm Syndrome would be something paying players would want to experience so hence the high turnover and this hunter and hunted thing. A good PVP time could have been had by all. Another game might get it differently in the future someday. But that's the way I would have done it. We've got several other space games out there, but I don't know if any of them fit this description. Have any others like this been tried, and how are those games doing? Successful? Couldn't get subscriptions? EVE seems to give an indication of the lengths players will go to both have a space game like this and not be involved in PVP.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 475	Posted - 2016.08.09 18:09:10 - [1269] - Quote Why should every EVE player have to be a thrill-seeker or adrenaline junkie? Socialites who mine to pay for "Chat Room Online" aren't hurting anybody - they are making at least a small contribution to the game (arguably more in keeping others interested than in the minerals they provide, but whatever)... Why try to force them out of the game? Similarly the hard-core miners...what is wrong with them? These are the sorts of players who enjoy playing Minecraft without using any cheat-codes or modifications to make the game easier (they might mod it to make it harder). The sort who will actually excavate and mine until they find 10,000 diamonds to build a palace out of - just because they enjoy the process. Why should these players not have a place in EVE? Even the AFK miners aren't hurting the game significantly...even if they don't add anything to it... The only miners who are any kind of a problem are bots...and CCP has taken steps to minimize their impact as well. I would argue that botting carrier-ratters in 0.0 have a far greater impact in the modern EVE than botting miners do...and even that is fairly nonexistent for the most part. If you want thrills and adventure and content...Then get out there and do the things that provide that. There is no reason mining has to be one of them... As for your "Only Combat Ships" proposal, because "It's a PVP Game!"...I have a few things to say..... #1) This is an odd sentiment for, if I recall correctly, an anti-ganker? #2) Yes, in terms of PvP Combat content, the miners are sheep. However, most good miners who stick with EVE (and there are a surprisingly large number) find ways to deal with Combat players without unduly disrupting their mining operations. This is all part of the game - and I see no reason to punish them or remove their play-style just because they aren't dealing with Combat in the way you wish they would... Some people can't handle it, and they will quit - as long as they are the minority and/or they get replaced by new recruits, the game won't even notice. When that balance is upset - THAT is when CCP acts to change the game...but not to chase the rest of the miners out of the game - they only act to try to bring more players in, whatever form they may take. #3) PvP DOES NOT ONLY MEAN COMBAT!!! Seriously, get it through your thick skulls. PvP can take many forms - they do NOT all require weaponry or open combat. EVE is 100% a PvP game - NOT 100% a Combat game. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. Trust me, an active miner who collects a ton of ore and then speed-sells it at a rock-bottom price that crashes an entire market sector will draw far more tears than any PvP player killing a miner...Even if he never hears the crying/whining directly. **** - even just mining out an ice belt before the other miners get a chance to get any will net you a boat-load of tears. PvP takes many forms.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5098	Posted - 2016.08.09 18:10:32 - [1270] - Quote Geronimo McVain wrote: Jessica Starblaze wrote: You are missing out one part. In the time I am talking about there were no strip miners. And mining was just a lot more interactive. Sure just unloading your cargo 2 times per minute is a tedious task, still it did not allow any real afk gameplay if you wanted to be even half way efficient. On top of that there were not that many people with multiple accounts and mining efficiently actually still required working as a team and the social interaction made it a lot less boring as well. Still the main point I was making: the way mining was in the early days you had to sit in front of the pc the whole time if you wanted to get anywhere with mining. So I guess the devs back then were not sane ;). I think it was done to keep the econemy intact because they had not enough miners/Minerals but they overdid it. But just klicking to keep klicking isn't really the way to make mining thrilling. Without the element of danger there is no thrill. Really? That is why mineral prices were in the toilet? I don't think so. Minerals were actually quite abundant due to drone poo. In the drone regions, drones did not have bounties and dropped alloys (aka drone poo) which when refined gave you some nice minerals. So you'd see people living in the drone regions go to Jita and drop gigatons of minerals on the market. Tritanium was often sitting around 3 ISK/unit for buy orders. It was **** ISK. Mining has never been thrilling and in fact I don't think it can be made thrilling (or even mildly interesting). I have come to that conclusion after reading a number of threads on "making mining exciting!". Usually those attempts involve some sort of horrible mini-game....which means more clicking to get a crap reward (mining is still pretty meh ISK). In fact, I have argued that in fact, the ability to semi-AFK mine was probably the allure of mining. You can mine and make ISK while doing other StuffGäó either in or out of game. When it comes to making ISK it has always been a pretty "meh" process. Missions? Boring. Mining? Boring. Ratting in NS? Boring. PI? Boring. Reaction farms? Boring. Even alliance level ISK making is pretty awful. Moon mining? Boring. You have use a JF and make fuel blocks and on-lining and off-lining stuff is pretty boring. Managing a rental empire? Not all that different than working in property management I suspect. As a result we all try to find ways to make ISK with as little time spent in game as possible....or we tend to go semi-AFK. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5098	Posted - 2016.08.09 18:17:07 - [1271] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Ceres Starshine wrote: I wanted a fresh start buying the 5 month offered package. I find my carrier in a hostile station. Gm refused to move it to low sec. As i have no friends playing I opened my second account to get aout of there. At the end I kinda frustrated and quit for good... Ah sov space... This is where you just sneak into the region in an interceptor and put it up for sale - then spam their populated systems with the contract until someone buys it. Then go re-buy it elsewhere. Annoying? Yep. Going to lose a bit of money? Yep. But that has been the fire-sale tradition in sov space forever As for the petition - working as intended. That is what I had to do. Couldn't get my carrier out before our systems fell. I did have a JC in the station though, so I JC'd there, put the stuff up on contracts and posted the contracts in local at a very nice price. The people living in our old space got a carrier, I got a nice load of ISK...so everyone is happy. Oh, and not the first time I had to fire sale stuff. I mentioned that in local chatting with the guys there and the response was, "Yeah, we've all been there." So confirming Dirty's statements... "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 476	Posted - 2016.08.09 18:20:27 - [1272] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: That is what I had to do. Couldn't get my carrier out before our systems fell. I did have a JC in the station though, so I JC'd there, put the stuff up on contracts and posted the contracts in local at a very nice price. The people living in our old space got a carrier, I got a nice load of ISK...so everyone is happy. Oh, and not the first time I had to fire sale stuff. I mentioned that in local chatting with the guys there and the response was, "Yeah, we've all been there." So confirming Dirty's statements... Oh I speak from experience on this point lol. Not a carrier - but we had a WH connection direct to a market hub (ok 3 jumps out) for a while and I severely overstocked my first sov-space home... Took me years to firesale it all off, as I wasn't willing to settle for heavy isk losses. Lol
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5098	Posted - 2016.08.09 18:22:57 - [1273] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Where it up to meGäó there would never have been any players flying any non-combatant vessels. It's a bit of a contradiction that this "It's a PVP Game! HURF BLURF!" has non-combatant ships. All mining and hauling would be done by NPCs, but if any player wanted to do those things, they would have to purchase those ships and hire the crews for them and then give them orders. Yes, I too hate spontaneous order. Quote: And like the NPC couriers we see outside of the stations, they could be fired on by anybody. Yes, I too want to have my stuff taken all the time whenever I want to move it. Quote: In a pre-crimewatch approach an antagonist becomes flashy red to the owner of an NPC ship under attack. So if you wanted to mine and haul, you had to be just as good at PVP as the people wanting to blow stuff up. The NPC ships would have been "Nostromo sized", or Pillar of Autumn size (from the inside at least - that run was way longer than the ship). It would take a fleet to kill them and it would take a while. Yeah, that will totally dissuade people from ganking. Quote: But long ago someone said "let there be sheep" with a hope that Stockholm Syndrome would be something paying players would want to experience so hence the high turnover and this hunter and hunted thing. A good PVP time could have been had by all. Another game might get it differently in the future someday. But that's the way I would have done it. Or it could have been a balance issue. Moving lots of stuff does have an impact in game. Butting a dread sized tank on a freighter would mean that one could move stuff in near perfect safety. And considering that being prudent gets you very close to near perfect safety, I really don't see the problem here. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5098	Posted - 2016.08.09 18:27:41 - [1274] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Why should every EVE player have to be a thrill-seeker or adrenaline junkie? Socialites who mine to pay for "Chat Room Online" aren't hurting anybody - they are making at least a small contribution to the game (arguably more in keeping others interested than in the minerals they provide, but whatever)... Why try to force them out of the game? Because they aren't playing correctly dammit!!!!! Don't you see it?!?!?!?! "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Robert Caldera Caldera Trading and Investment 1206	Posted - 2016.08.09 18:59:11 - [1275] - Quote I reduced playing eve since I cant relocate to a different area without 20 cynos. Since CCP nerfed jump ranges so much I cba to do all the work of 20 mids to get somewhere, albeit I kinda understand the point of the nerf. Still hurts solo guys like me too much. They also nerfed wormholes into oblivion.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 477	Posted - 2016.08.09 19:10:51 - [1276] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: Ceres Starshine wrote: I wanted a fresh start buying the 5 month offered package. I find my carrier in a hostile station. Gm refused to move it to low sec. As i have no friends playing I opened my second account to get aout of there. At the end I kinda frustrated and quit for good... hard to believe. when you unsub and get stuck at a hostile station after returning ... ... GMs usually move you with at least one ship and everything you can put into it. assuming no alts used in that time, of course. GMs will only move you + 1 ship if you are stuck in the station, though it very rarely comes up since your medical clone usually gets moved elsewhere anyway... I believe Ceres only had a carrier stuck in the station - not himself....though it could also be that the carrier has a jump drive so they didn't feel it was necessary... In any case, fire-sales are always an option.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7882	Posted - 2016.08.09 19:26:21 - [1277] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Why should every EVE player have to be a thrill-seeker or adrenaline junkie? Socialites who mine to pay for "Chat Room Online" aren't hurting anybody - they are making at least a small contribution to the game (arguably more in keeping others interested than in the minerals they provide, but whatever)... Why try to force them out of the game? Similarly the hard-core miners...what is wrong with them? These are the sorts of players who enjoy playing Minecraft without using any cheat-codes or modifications to make the game easier (they might mod it to make it harder). The sort who will actually excavate and mine until they find 10,000 diamonds to build a palace out of - just because they enjoy the process. Why should these players not have a place in EVE? Even the AFK miners aren't hurting the game significantly...even if they don't add anything to it... The only miners who are any kind of a problem are bots...and CCP has taken steps to minimize their impact as well. I would argue that botting carrier-ratters in 0.0 have a far greater impact in the modern EVE than botting miners do...and even that is fairly nonexistent for the most part. If you want thrills and adventure and content...Then get out there and do the things that provide that. There is no reason mining has to be one of them... As for your "Only Combat Ships" proposal, because "It's a PVP Game!"...I have a few things to say..... #1) This is an odd sentiment for, if I recall correctly, an anti-ganker? #2) Yes, in terms of PvP Combat content, the miners are sheep. However, most good miners who stick with EVE (and there are a surprisingly large number) find ways to deal with Combat players without unduly disrupting their mining operations. This is all part of the game - and I see no reason to punish them or remove their play-style just because they aren't dealing with Combat in the way you wish they would... Some people can't handle it, and they will quit - as long as they are the minority and/or they get replaced by new recruits, the game won't even notice. When that balance is upset - THAT is when CCP acts to change the game...but not to chase the rest of the miners out of the game - they only act to try to bring more players in, whatever form they may take. #3) PvP DOES NOT ONLY MEAN COMBAT!!! Seriously, get it through your thick skulls. PvP can take many forms - they do NOT all require weaponry or open combat. EVE is 100% a PvP game - NOT 100% a Combat game. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. Trust me, an active miner who collects a ton of ore and then speed-sells it at a rock-bottom price that crashes an entire market sector will draw far more tears than any PvP player killing a miner...Even if he never hears the crying/whining directly. **** - even just mining out an ice belt before the other miners get a chance to get any will net you a boat-load of tears. PvP takes many forms. I had a friend like you some years ago. We called him "Conan the Contrarian". Unlike the Barbarian counterpart he needed to hit the gym. I stopped reading when you showed your assumption that anti-ganking means anti-PVP. That display of ignorance is all I needed to know about the value of your opinions. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 478	Posted - 2016.08.09 19:30:23 - [1278] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: I stopped reading Yeah, I got that...you clearly didn't read a word I wrote...I presume because you don't know how.
KaarBaak Squirrel Team 392	Posted - 2016.08.09 19:40:54 - [1279] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: When it comes to making ISK it has always been a pretty "meh" process. Missions? Boring. Mining? Boring. Ratting in NS? Boring. PI? Boring. Reaction farms? Boring. Even alliance level ISK making is pretty awful. Moon mining? Boring. You have use a JF and make fuel blocks and on-lining and off-lining stuff is pretty boring. Managing a rental empire? Not all that different than working in property management I suspect. As a result we all try to find ways to make ISK with as little time spent in game as possible....or we tend to go semi-AFK. I've always wondered at the players that look at accumulation of ISK as a goal of the game. Seems so pointless, and no doubt the reason that so many players feel bored playing. I do believe that the whole purpose of a game is to keep score, using some metric or other. But wallet-balance never made sense to me. KB Dum Spiro Spero
Robert Caldera Caldera Trading and Investment 1206	Posted - 2016.08.09 19:52:58 - [1280] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: When it comes to making ISK it has always been a pretty "meh" process. Missions? Boring. Mining? Boring. Ratting in NS? Boring. PI? Boring. Reaction farms? Boring. Even alliance level ISK making is pretty awful. Moon mining? Boring. You have use a JF and make fuel blocks and on-lining and off-lining stuff is pretty boring. Managing a rental empire? Not all that different than working in property management I suspect. As a result we all try to find ways to make ISK with as little time spent in game as possible....or we tend to go semi-AFK. in which MMO is making money not a boring task?
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2104	Posted - 2016.08.09 20:16:56 - [1281] - Quote Robert Caldera wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: When it comes to making ISK it has always been a pretty "meh" process. Missions? Boring. Mining? Boring. Ratting in NS? Boring. PI? Boring. Reaction farms? Boring. Even alliance level ISK making is pretty awful. Moon mining? Boring. You have use a JF and make fuel blocks and on-lining and off-lining stuff is pretty boring. Managing a rental empire? Not all that different than working in property management I suspect. As a result we all try to find ways to make ISK with as little time spent in game as possible....or we tend to go semi-AFK. in which MMO is making money not a boring task? Moving too... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Signal11th 1675	Posted - 2016.08.09 20:31:48 - [1282] - Quote Plus plex being over a bill isn't going to help numbers, in fact in less than 18 hours this account becomes deactivated, always said I won't pay over a bill for plex and unfortunately it's happened so hopefully it will go under slightly sometime soon. edit found one for 958 so extended for another month, phew. God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7882	Posted - 2016.08.09 20:34:01 - [1283] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: I stopped reading Yeah, I got that...you clearly didn't read a word I wrote...I presume because you don't know how. edit: So just for the official record - Per Herzog Wolfhammer: Anti-Gankers think all non-combat pilots should be forcibly removed from the game. And I'm bad because I disagree? I'm flattered that you think my opinions on how I would have made this game (entirely a fantasy) is the opinion of AG. If you will excuse, I must go put on my hoody and issue some orders to AG.... There are others in AG whose ideas and opinions on various matters would be closer to the pulse of AG generally. But until you figure that out, I'll bask in the power you presume I have. Now scurry away quickly, peasant. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 481	Posted - 2016.08.09 20:39:43 - [1284] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: I stopped reading Yeah, I got that...you clearly didn't read a word I wrote...I presume because you don't know how. edit: So just for the official record - Per Herzog Wolfhammer: Anti-Gankers think all non-combat pilots should be forcibly removed from the game. And I'm bad because I disagree? I'm flattered that you think my opinions on how I would have made this game (entirely a fantasy) is the opinion of AG. If you will excuse, I must go put on my hoody and issue some orders to AG.... There are others in AG whose ideas and opinions on various matters would be closer to the pulse of AG generally. But until you figure that out, I'll bask in the power you presume I have. Now scurry away quickly, peasant. No, I don't think you have any significance - but you have claimed to be an anti-ganker...and acted as if you thought your view was one commonly held by the rest... Regardless of the official anti-ganker stance however - you do confirm that is your personal opinion? Even CODE. doesn't say that CCP should just step in and forcibly remove all non-combat play-styles from the game...They just rely on limited in-game mechanics to encourage more active play and less mining... Literally, you are harsher towards miners than CODE. Think about that... Also any CODE. members who are still reading this thread - good material for a future minerbumping entry here perhaps - we all know how much James loves his propaganda
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5770	Posted - 2016.08.09 20:40:23 - [1285] - Quote Jessica Starblaze wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: May I ask you this? Do your really think mentally sane game developers think this mining mechanic is correctly played in front of pc all time? The funny part is: back in the days before mining ships with huge cargo holds existed you actually were forced to sit in front of your pc the whole time, because you had to unload your cargo after every mining cycle. Nah, back in the days everybody would Google for a mining bot that would do that. EvE Online portal \| EvE markets tutorials
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2104	Posted - 2016.08.09 20:48:45 - [1286] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: I stopped reading Yeah, I got that...you clearly didn't read a word I wrote...I presume because you don't know how. edit: So just for the official record - Per Herzog Wolfhammer: Anti-Gankers think all non-combat pilots should be forcibly removed from the game. And I'm bad because I disagree? I'm flattered that you think my opinions on how I would have made this game (entirely a fantasy) is the opinion of AG. If you will excuse, I must go put on my hoody and issue some orders to AG.... There are others in AG whose ideas and opinions on various matters would be closer to the pulse of AG generally. But until you figure that out, I'll bask in the power you presume I have. Now scurry away quickly, peasant. No, I don't think you have any significance - but you have claimed to be an anti-ganker...and acted as if you thought your view was one commonly held by the rest... Regardless of the official anti-ganker stance however - you do confirm that is your personal opinion? Even CODE. doesn't say that CCP should just step in and forcibly remove all non-combat play-styles from the game...They just rely on limited in-game mechanics to encourage more active play and less mining... Literally, you are harsher towards miners than CODE. Think about that... Also any CODE. members who are still reading this thread - good material for a future minerbumping entry here perhaps - we all know how much James loves his propaganda I think you will find that Herzog has gathered rather a large amount of ganker tears by some quite fun, while it lasted of course freighter wreck ganks... They are quite welcome to talk about his exploits if they wish, but somehow I doubt it. Herzog is not a leader in the AG and neither am I for that matter. He is not being harsh about miners, he is suggesting a more interesting game play in terms of mining, so you don't have to sit there in a non-combat ship with a bulls eye painted on your noggin... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5770	Posted - 2016.08.09 20:55:40 - [1287] - Quote KaarBaak wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: When it comes to making ISK it has always been a pretty "meh" process. Missions? Boring. Mining? Boring. Ratting in NS? Boring. PI? Boring. Reaction farms? Boring. Even alliance level ISK making is pretty awful. Moon mining? Boring. You have use a JF and make fuel blocks and on-lining and off-lining stuff is pretty boring. Managing a rental empire? Not all that different than working in property management I suspect. As a result we all try to find ways to make ISK with as little time spent in game as possible....or we tend to go semi-AFK. I've always wondered at the players that look at accumulation of ISK as a goal of the game. Seems so pointless, and no doubt the reason that so many players feel bored playing. I do believe that the whole purpose of a game is to keep score, using some metric or other. But wallet-balance never made sense to me. KB You never know, humanity is so diverse. In my case I did a lot of stuff but I wanted to prove my way to trade the markets with RL finance charts and methods would work in EvE. I set myself a target at 300B. I achieved it, I won my personal EvE and I have mostly stopped playing since then. I am still making lots of passive money despite I am not logging in since some months, everything is running smoothly and earning money with no login required. So... it makes sense. However it's bad when you prove yourself you are right... and proving you are right means you have no further reason keep playing EvE Online portal \| EvE markets tutorials
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 481	Posted - 2016.08.09 20:56:48 - [1288] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: I think you will find that Herzog has gathered rather a large amount of ganker tears by some quite fun, while it lasted of course freighter wreck ganks... They are quite welcome to talk about his exploits if they wish, but somehow I doubt it. Herzog is not a leader in the AG and neither am I for that matter. He is not being harsh about miners, he is suggesting a more interesting game play in terms of mining, so you don't have to sit there in a non-combat ship with a bulls eye painted on your noggin... Whatever he has done against gankers is irrelevant... He is not proposing making more interesting gameplay in terms of mining - he is proposing literally kicking very nearly every current miner out of the game by completely destroying their play-style - and 100% requiring them to perform combat. He recommended replacing all PvE activities like mining with NPC bots - so that at best they could play some weird RTS-ified version of PvE....And they would 100% have to fly combat ships and defend their convoys in the process. He also refused to even read my point that PvP is not equivalent to "Combat" - he thinks EVE should become 100% Player Vs Player Combat - with no other options for any players. You see, I did read his post - even though he couldn't be ***ing bothered to read mine. Herzog is WAY worse than CODE. will ever be. He doesn't even think miners should be allowed to exist* - and he thinks CCP should have taken steps to prevent them from ever playing in the first place. And when given a chance to re-phrase or back down - he instead chose to double down on his position and resort to personal attacks on me, because I dared to say that maybe miners should be allowed to keep on mining...
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5098	Posted - 2016.08.09 21:02:47 - [1289] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: He is not being harsh about miners, he is suggesting a more interesting game play in terms of mining, so you don't have to sit there in a non-combat ship with a bulls eye painted on your noggin... No, he is suggesting removing it altogether. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Sonya Corvinus Static-Noise Upholders 452	Posted - 2016.08.09 21:09:20 - [1290] - Quote Signal11th wrote: Plus plex being over a bill isn't going to help numbers, in fact in less than 18 hours this account becomes deactivated, always said I won't pay over a bill for plex and unfortunately it's happened so hopefully it will go under slightly sometime soon. edit found one for 958 so extended for another month, phew. I never understood this thinking. ATM you can get over 1 bil for $20 IRL, which is less than an hour's work. What in game can I do to earn 1 billion ISK in an hour? High plex prices are attractive. Anyone grinding ISK to plex an account doesn't understand the value of their time. Work literally 5 hours more IRL and you can fund your EVE-ing for months, and not have to mindlessly grind in game.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5098	Posted - 2016.08.09 21:14:27 - [1291] - Quote Sonya Corvinus wrote: Signal11th wrote: Plus plex being over a bill isn't going to help numbers, in fact in less than 18 hours this account becomes deactivated, always said I won't pay over a bill for plex and unfortunately it's happened so hopefully it will go under slightly sometime soon. edit found one for 958 so extended for another month, phew. I never understood this thinking. ATM you can get over 1 bil for $20 IRL, which is less than an hour's work. What in game can I do to earn 1 billion ISK in an hour? High plex prices are attractive. Anyone grinding ISK to plex an account doesn't understand the value of their time. Work literally 5 hours more IRL and you can fund your EVE-ing for months, and not have to mindlessly grind in game. Well...he might have LOTS of leisure time and a tight budget. But generally speaking, yeah. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26572	Posted - 2016.08.09 21:17:41 - [1292] - Quote Sonya Corvinus wrote: Signal11th wrote: Plus plex being over a bill isn't going to help numbers, in fact in less than 18 hours this account becomes deactivated, always said I won't pay over a bill for plex and unfortunately it's happened so hopefully it will go under slightly sometime soon. edit found one for 958 so extended for another month, phew. I never understood this thinking. ATM you can get over 1 bil for $20 IRL, which is less than an hour's work. What in game can I do to earn 1 billion ISK in an hour? High plex prices are attractive. Anyone grinding ISK to plex an account doesn't understand the value of their time. Work literally 5 hours more IRL and you can fund your EVE-ing for months, and not have to mindlessly grind in game. I don't either, if people don't fancy paying for a sub, the ISK for a PLEX is easier than ever to come by thanks to the introduction of skill extractors. Much as I dislike the idea of them I think it'd be silly to not use them if you have a character that you can use to train enough SP to punt on to buy a PLEX, and not detract from the characters main purpose. I certainly do, this character stopped training over a year ago, my alt actually has more SP than Jonah and a skill queue that makes the most of her attributes and cheap implants to yield easily attained SP for farming. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7883	Posted - 2016.08.09 22:49:24 - [1293] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: I stopped reading Yeah, I got that...you clearly didn't read a word I wrote...I presume because you don't know how. edit: So just for the official record - Per Herzog Wolfhammer: Anti-Gankers think all non-combat pilots should be forcibly removed from the game. And I'm bad because I disagree? I'm flattered that you think my opinions on how I would have made this game (entirely a fantasy) is the opinion of AG. If you will excuse, I must go put on my hoody and issue some orders to AG.... There are others in AG whose ideas and opinions on various matters would be closer to the pulse of AG generally. But until you figure that out, I'll bask in the power you presume I have. Now scurry away quickly, peasant. No, I don't think you have any significance - but you have claimed to be an anti-ganker...and acted as if you thought your view was one commonly held by the rest... Regardless of the official anti-ganker stance however - you do confirm that is your personal opinion? Even CODE. doesn't say that CCP should just step in and forcibly remove all non-combat play-styles from the game...They just rely on limited in-game mechanics to encourage more active play and less mining... Literally, you are harsher towards miners than CODE. Think about that... Also any CODE. members who are still reading this thread - good material for a future minerbumping entry here perhaps - we all know how much James loves his propaganda You seem a little bit triggered. Does the idea of an Eve, even pitched as a mythical afterthought over which I have no power, having no victim class bother you that much? But of course the game exists because some people got buttmad over a game they played having some kind of carebear zone so perhaps everything was working as intended. It's just that less and less people are buying it these days. Had I been there at the creation of Eve, to say "hey guys, you are setting up a wolves and sheep scenario that on the long term is only going to have the appearance of favoritism for one side and you should rethink this" I wonder what would have been? Notice I don't say which side there is favoritism. And it matters little who can prove what. The APPEARANCE of favoritism does all of the damage. That's why I think CCPs community management is in failcascade mode because they have the authority and leadership power to put an end to this toxic relationship but some of them appear to bask in it. But having taken the time, my idea is not so bad. Imagine if Corporation A has mining operations in a given set of systems and Corp B want's a piece of the pie, so they get more pilots than A. So you have two elements to destroy: the NPC mining assets AND the actual players who will certainly try to stop you. Kill off the players and you can take out their fleets. No need for wardecs even. But imagine that you cannot beat a corporation on the field, you can still keep them in check doing hit and fade operations on their mining operations. Have the NPC mining and hauling assets drop their loot and you run a supply interdiction strategy as well. But I'm afraid at this point we're talking about an entirely different game. I was not there in the beginning, it never happened, and everything that has happened is not easily undone. I don't know why you are so upset about how I would have done it theoretically. I might as well be talking about another game entirely, and of the sort that never existed. Maybe the idea of a game without other players to gleefully victimize might bother some people. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
NightCrawler 85 Phoibe Enterprises 1826	Posted - 2016.08.09 23:43:32 - [1294] - Quote https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=487767 It's a wall of text but the poster raises a lot of good points and much of what he listed ties into why I no longer log on even though my skills are still training. Phoibe Enterprises The Eve Reader - Audio Recordings of Eve Chronicles
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 483	Posted - 2016.08.09 23:52:29 - [1295] - Quote See Herzog...there are a few problems with that: - To begin, let me once again point out that PvP is not limited to Combat. Stop acting like this is the only form of PvP. It isn't... - Most successful miners do not consider themselves victims. They have lots of options to avoid unwanted combat...And they use them. - Many non-Combat pilots (miners and others) enjoy the non-combat PvP aspects of EVE. Just because you keep pretending this side of the game doesn't exist doesn't make it true...So your brilliant idea of removing this entire side of EVE deprives these players of most of the content they enjoy... I fail to see how simply removing the majority of the content of the game and forcing everyone to play your narrow vision of "FPS Space Combat Online" improves the game in any way... There are other games that already do that - go play one. Additionally, if we were going to go back in time and arbitrarily remove every single play-style of EVE other than the one that 1 single person finds fun....Why would we go with your play style? Why not force everybody to mine gas in wormholes and never interact with another human being? This solution also removes your predator/victim problem...so why is it not the ideal solution? Rather than space-bullying - you simply feel that you can declare that every single play-style in the game that isn't yours" is "wrong" - and should never have been included as an option... If you can't see how much that makes you sound like a pretentious **....Then you are hopeless. And seriously - I'm not comparing you to CODE. just because you hate them. Think about it - what is it that people hate about CODE.? It is the fact that they try to force their vision of how the game should be on other people, who don't want to play that way. They are held up as the epitome of this type of arrogant elitism - and hated for it by most people who encounter them regularly... But you have literally 1-upped CODE. on this one. You aren't even content to use in-game mechanics to try to force people to play your way - you just declare that life would be better if CCP had set up the mechanics so your play style was the only play style. I chose this comparison very specifically - because this is the group you are most like, and more extreme than...
Sandy Point Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2016.08.10 00:13:26 - [1296] - Quote MidnightWyvern wrote: Elenahina wrote: Denavit wrote: Is is because PLEX prices, i remember buying them at 550mill, 500mill, now is almost 1bill, or is it because the changes are making oldSchoolers quit? Yes and yes, as well as other reasons, such as an aging player base that has less free time. People seem to keep discounting that one. A lot of the original 2003 crowd are growing up, settling down, or just moving on with their lives. You know..... I'd go along with that if I didn't work closely with the medical field. Did you know there are a little over 360k human births a day on this planet we call Earth? Players moving to other games is plausible but doesn't mean that void wouldn't be filled if the inbedded vets weren't so intent on flailing the hell out of a player with a few hundred thousand skill points and the only means that player has currently to earn isk IS to PVE.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5098	Posted - 2016.08.10 00:22:43 - [1297] - Quote Sandy Point wrote: MidnightWyvern wrote: Elenahina wrote: Denavit wrote: Is is because PLEX prices, i remember buying them at 550mill, 500mill, now is almost 1bill, or is it because the changes are making oldSchoolers quit? Yes and yes, as well as other reasons, such as an aging player base that has less free time. People seem to keep discounting that one. A lot of the original 2003 crowd are growing up, settling down, or just moving on with their lives. You know..... I'd go along with that if I didn't work closely with the medical field. Did you know there are a little over 360k human births a day on this planet we call Earth? Players moving to other games is plausible but doesn't mean that void wouldn't be filled if the inbedded vets weren't so intent on flailing the hell out of a player with a few hundred thousand skill points and the only means that player has currently to earn isk IS to PVE. Oh for God's sake. Yes, that is all veterans do...look for new players to just blow them up. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5098	Posted - 2016.08.10 00:24:19 - [1298] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: I stopped reading Yeah, I got that...you clearly didn't read a word I wrote...I presume because you don't know how. edit: So just for the official record - Per Herzog Wolfhammer: Anti-Gankers think all non-combat pilots should be forcibly removed from the game. And I'm bad because I disagree? I'm flattered that you think my opinions on how I would have made this game (entirely a fantasy) is the opinion of AG. If you will excuse, I must go put on my hoody and issue some orders to AG.... There are others in AG whose ideas and opinions on various matters would be closer to the pulse of AG generally. But until you figure that out, I'll bask in the power you presume I have. Now scurry away quickly, peasant. No, I don't think you have any significance - but you have claimed to be an anti-ganker...and acted as if you thought your view was one commonly held by the rest... Regardless of the official anti-ganker stance however - you do confirm that is your personal opinion? Even CODE. doesn't say that CCP should just step in and forcibly remove all non-combat play-styles from the game...They just rely on limited in-game mechanics to encourage more active play and less mining... Literally, you are harsher towards miners than CODE. Think about that... Also any CODE. members who are still reading this thread - good material for a future minerbumping entry here perhaps - we all know how much James loves his propaganda You seem a little bit triggered. Does the idea of an Eve, even pitched as a mythical afterthought over which I have no power, having no victim class bother you that much? But of course the game exists because some people got buttmad over a game they played having some kind of carebear zone so perhaps everything was working as intended. It's just that less and less people are buying it these days. Had I been there at the creation of Eve, to say "hey guys, you are setting up a wolves and sheep scenario that on the long term is only going to have the appearance of favoritism for one side and you should rethink this" I wonder what would have been? Notice I don't say which side there is favoritism. And it matters little who can prove what. The APPEARANCE of favoritism does all of the damage. That's why I think CCPs community management is in failcascade mode because they have the authority and leadership power to put an end to this toxic relationship but some of them appear to bask in it. But having taken the time, my idea is not so bad. Imagine if Corporation A has mining operations in a given set of systems and Corp B want's a piece of the pie, so they get more pilots than A. So you have two elements to destroy: the NPC mining assets AND the actual players who will certainly try to stop you. Kill off the players and you can take out their fleets. No need for wardecs even. But imagine that you cannot beat a corporation on the field, you can still keep them in check doing hit and fade operations on their mining operations. Have the NPC mining and hauling assets drop their loot and you run a supply interdiction strategy as well. But I'm afraid at this point we're talking about an entirely different game. I was not there in the beginning, it never happened, and everything that has happened is not easily undone. I don't know why you are so upset about how I would have done it theoretically. I might as well be talking about another game entirely, and of the sort that never existed. Maybe the idea of a game without other players to gleefully victimize might bother some people. Your idea is bad because it puts constraints on what people can do in game. Now everyone is a combat pilot whether they want it or not....and quite a few players do not want it. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Sandy Point Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2016.08.10 00:50:33 - [1299] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Sandy Point wrote: MidnightWyvern wrote: Elenahina wrote: Denavit wrote: Is is because PLEX prices, i remember buying them at 550mill, 500mill, now is almost 1bill, or is it because the changes are making oldSchoolers quit? Yes and yes, as well as other reasons, such as an aging player base that has less free time. People seem to keep discounting that one. A lot of the original 2003 crowd are growing up, settling down, or just moving on with their lives. You know..... I'd go along with that if I didn't work closely with the medical field. Did you know there are a little over 360k human births a day on this planet we call Earth? Players moving to other games is plausible but doesn't mean that void wouldn't be filled if the inbedded vets weren't so intent on flailing the hell out of a player with a few hundred thousand skill points and the only means that player has currently to earn isk IS to PVE. Oh for God's sake. Yes, that is all veterans do...look for new players to just blow them up. I knew it!
Galaxy Chicken Free Highsec Industrialists 71	Posted - 2016.08.10 00:52:28 - [1300] - Quote LMAO "victim class", I like that.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5099	Posted - 2016.08.10 06:09:24 - [1301] - Quote Sandy Point wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Oh for God's sake. Yes, that is all veterans do...look for new players to just blow them up. I knew it! Yes...I'm looking for you now..... Actually, I just can't be arsed. I have invention stuff to do. Blowing up an ibis is so passe. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Signal11th 1675	Posted - 2016.08.10 07:51:32 - [1302] - Quote Sonya Corvinus wrote: Signal11th wrote: Plus plex being over a bill isn't going to help numbers, in fact in less than 18 hours this account becomes deactivated, always said I won't pay over a bill for plex and unfortunately it's happened so hopefully it will go under slightly sometime soon. edit found one for 958 so extended for another month, phew. I never understood this thinking. ATM you can get over 1 bil for $20 IRL, which is less than an hour's work. What in game can I do to earn 1 billion ISK in an hour? High plex prices are attractive. Anyone grinding ISK to plex an account doesn't understand the value of their time. Work literally 5 hours more IRL and you can fund your EVE-ing for months, and not have to mindlessly grind in game. Because I'm old and pedantic, I set myself limits and stick to them, Plex goes over a bill I stop playing regardless of wether or not I can pay for it which I can do because I do on my other accounts but Signal was my first account and I always said as soon as I started if plex went over a bill that was it I would stop. it's not the time or grind just the fact I can. Christ I spend 10 quid a day on crap anyway and 10 quid a month for EVE isn;t going to bother me one bit but it's not about the money. One bill for a plex is my line in the sand. God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5099	Posted - 2016.08.10 07:59:55 - [1303] - Quote Signal11th wrote: Sonya Corvinus wrote: Signal11th wrote: Plus plex being over a bill isn't going to help numbers, in fact in less than 18 hours this account becomes deactivated, always said I won't pay over a bill for plex and unfortunately it's happened so hopefully it will go under slightly sometime soon. edit found one for 958 so extended for another month, phew. I never understood this thinking. ATM you can get over 1 bil for $20 IRL, which is less than an hour's work. What in game can I do to earn 1 billion ISK in an hour? High plex prices are attractive. Anyone grinding ISK to plex an account doesn't understand the value of their time. Work literally 5 hours more IRL and you can fund your EVE-ing for months, and not have to mindlessly grind in game. Because I'm old and pedantic, I set myself limits and stick to them, Plex goes over a bill I stop playing regardless of wether or not I can pay for it which I can do because I do on my other accounts but Signal was my first account and I always said as soon as I started if plex went over a bill that was it I would stop. it's not the time or grind just the fact I can. Christ I spend 10 quid a day on crap anyway and 10 quid a month for EVE isn;t going to bother me one bit but it's not about the money. One bill for a plex is my line in the sand. Okay, so you just set a rather irrational limit. Thanks for sharing. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Signal11th 1675	Posted - 2016.08.10 08:07:56 - [1304] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Signal11th wrote: Sonya Corvinus wrote: Signal11th wrote: Plus plex being over a bill isn't going to help numbers, in fact in less than 18 hours this account becomes deactivated, always said I won't pay over a bill for plex and unfortunately it's happened so hopefully it will go under slightly sometime soon. edit found one for 958 so extended for another month, phew. I never understood this thinking. ATM you can get over 1 bil for $20 IRL, which is less than an hour's work. What in game can I do to earn 1 billion ISK in an hour? High plex prices are attractive. Anyone grinding ISK to plex an account doesn't understand the value of their time. Work literally 5 hours more IRL and you can fund your EVE-ing for months, and not have to mindlessly grind in game. Because I'm old and pedantic, I set myself limits and stick to them, Plex goes over a bill I stop playing regardless of wether or not I can pay for it which I can do because I do on my other accounts but Signal was my first account and I always said as soon as I started if plex went over a bill that was it I would stop. it's not the time or grind just the fact I can. Christ I spend 10 quid a day on crap anyway and 10 quid a month for EVE isn;t going to bother me one bit but it's not about the money. One bill for a plex is my line in the sand. Okay, so you just set a rather irrational limit. Thanks for sharing. They asked I gave an explanation, not for you to judge not that it matters to me one bit. All the reasons there are less users are valid regardless of their "irrationality" God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5099	Posted - 2016.08.10 08:19:53 - [1305] - Quote Signal11th wrote: They asked I gave an explanation, not for you to judge not that it matters to me one bit. All the reasons there are less users are valid regardless of their "irrationality" Even if, after taxes, you make $5/hour it would take you something like 29 hours to pay for an entire years subscription with RL money. I doubt in those 29 hours you could make enough ISK to pay as much game time via PLEX. Let's assume a 900 million ISK price for PLEX. So to pay for an entire year you would need 12*900 ISK, or 10.8 billion ISK. Or you'd need to make 372.5 million ISK/hour to pay for an entire year of playing. Clearly that appears to be a problem, and since you are not unemployed with a large endowment of leisure time...why are you continuing for the least efficient method of payment? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Signal11th 1677	Posted - 2016.08.10 08:26:40 - [1306] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Signal11th wrote: They asked I gave an explanation, not for you to judge not that it matters to me one bit. All the reasons there are less users are valid regardless of their "irrationality" Even if, after taxes, you make $5/hour it would take you something like 29 hours to pay for an entire years subscription with RL money. I doubt in those 29 hours you could make enough ISK to pay as much game time via PLEX. Let's assume a 900 million ISK price for PLEX. So to pay for an entire year you would need 12*900 ISK, or 10.8 billion ISK. Or you'd need to make 372.5 million ISK/hour to pay for an entire year of playing. Clearly that appears to be a problem, and since you are not unemployed with a large endowment of leisure time...why are you continuing for the least efficient method of payment? Well at current exchange rates I make -ú28/$42 pounds/dollars an hour (before tax) but as I mentioned its not about the cost it's about a line I set myself which has been met and I'm not willing to cross it, stubborn, pendantic, irrational yes but that's the just the way it is. God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 32011	Posted - 2016.08.10 09:01:37 - [1307] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Signal11th wrote: They asked I gave an explanation, not for you to judge not that it matters to me one bit. All the reasons there are less users are valid regardless of their "irrationality" Even if, after taxes, you make $5/hour it would take you something like 29 hours to pay for an entire years subscription with RL money. I doubt in those 29 hours you could make enough ISK to pay as much game time via PLEX. Let's assume a 900 million ISK price for PLEX. So to pay for an entire year you would need 12*900 ISK, or 10.8 billion ISK. Or you'd need to make 372.5 million ISK/hour to pay for an entire year of playing. Clearly that appears to be a problem, and since you are not unemployed with a large endowment of leisure time...why are you continuing for the least efficient method of payment? Because he's greedy and only does things that - in his eyes - aren't worth it. Which tells us a lot about him too, I guess. And while the parrots sing "it doesn't matter, plex is paid" ... ... it's actually "two people paying real money to play is better than one" "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Signal11th 1678	Posted - 2016.08.10 09:17:48 - [1308] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Signal11th wrote: They asked I gave an explanation, not for you to judge not that it matters to me one bit. All the reasons there are less users are valid regardless of their "irrationality" Even if, after taxes, you make $5/hour it would take you something like 29 hours to pay for an entire years subscription with RL money. I doubt in those 29 hours you could make enough ISK to pay as much game time via PLEX. Let's assume a 900 million ISK price for PLEX. So to pay for an entire year you would need 12*900 ISK, or 10.8 billion ISK. Or you'd need to make 372.5 million ISK/hour to pay for an entire year of playing. Clearly that appears to be a problem, and since you are not unemployed with a large endowment of leisure time...why are you continuing for the least efficient method of payment? Because he's greedy and only does things that - in his eyes - aren't worth it. Which tells us a lot about him too, I guess. And while the parrots sing "it doesn't matter, plex is paid" ... ... it's actually "two people paying real money to play is better than one" Your post actually doesn't make any sense at all. As for greed you couldn't be any further from the truth. Since when does having a set limit ever indicate greed? Surely it's the opposite. God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 32011	Posted - 2016.08.10 09:33:28 - [1309] - Quote Signal11th wrote: Solecist Project wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Signal11th wrote: They asked I gave an explanation, not for you to judge not that it matters to me one bit. All the reasons there are less users are valid regardless of their "irrationality" Even if, after taxes, you make $5/hour it would take you something like 29 hours to pay for an entire years subscription with RL money. I doubt in those 29 hours you could make enough ISK to pay as much game time via PLEX. Let's assume a 900 million ISK price for PLEX. So to pay for an entire year you would need 12*900 ISK, or 10.8 billion ISK. Or you'd need to make 372.5 million ISK/hour to pay for an entire year of playing. Clearly that appears to be a problem, and since you are not unemployed with a large endowment of leisure time...why are you continuing for the least efficient method of payment? Because he's greedy and only does things that - in his eyes - aren't worth it. Which tells us a lot about him too, I guess. And while the parrots sing "it doesn't matter, plex is paid" ... ... it's actually "two people paying real money to play is better than one" Your post actually doesn't make any sense at all. As for greed you couldn't be any further from the truth. Since when does having a set limit ever indicate greed? Surely it's the opposite. You're right. I need food before posting. Sorry. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5101	Posted - 2016.08.10 16:57:52 - [1310] - Quote Signal11th wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Signal11th wrote: They asked I gave an explanation, not for you to judge not that it matters to me one bit. All the reasons there are less users are valid regardless of their "irrationality" Even if, after taxes, you make $5/hour it would take you something like 29 hours to pay for an entire years subscription with RL money. I doubt in those 29 hours you could make enough ISK to pay as much game time via PLEX. Let's assume a 900 million ISK price for PLEX. So to pay for an entire year you would need 12*900 ISK, or 10.8 billion ISK. Or you'd need to make 372.5 million ISK/hour to pay for an entire year of playing. Clearly that appears to be a problem, and since you are not unemployed with a large endowment of leisure time...why are you continuing for the least efficient method of payment? Well at current exchange rates I make -ú28/$42 pounds/dollars an hour (before tax) but as I mentioned its not about the cost it's about a line I set myself which has been met and I'm not willing to cross it, stubborn, pendantic, irrational yes but that's the just the way it is. If plex stays over a bill for 6 months/1 year/forever then that's the amount of time this account stays deactivated. Okay, so your "reasoning" is similar to the following: You'll stop swimming so long as the price of gasoline is over $4/gallon (or the equivalent there in the UK). Yes, that makes so much sense now. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5101	Posted - 2016.08.10 17:00:53 - [1311] - Quote Signal11th wrote: Solecist Project wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Signal11th wrote: They asked I gave an explanation, not for you to judge not that it matters to me one bit. All the reasons there are less users are valid regardless of their "irrationality" Even if, after taxes, you make $5/hour it would take you something like 29 hours to pay for an entire years subscription with RL money. I doubt in those 29 hours you could make enough ISK to pay as much game time via PLEX. Let's assume a 900 million ISK price for PLEX. So to pay for an entire year you would need 12*900 ISK, or 10.8 billion ISK. Or you'd need to make 372.5 million ISK/hour to pay for an entire year of playing. Clearly that appears to be a problem, and since you are not unemployed with a large endowment of leisure time...why are you continuing for the least efficient method of payment? Because he's greedy and only does things that - in his eyes - aren't worth it. Which tells us a lot about him too, I guess. And while the parrots sing "it doesn't matter, plex is paid" ... ... it's actually "two people paying real money to play is better than one" Your post actually doesn't make any sense at all. As for greed you couldn't be any further from the truth. Since when does having a set limit ever indicate greed? Surely it's the opposite. I might add neither does yours. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Galaxy Chicken Free Highsec Industrialists 71	Posted - 2016.08.10 18:57:35 - [1312] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Socialites who mine to pay for "Chat Room Online" aren't hurting anybody... Exactly! They aren't hurting anybody! I don't know about you, but I simply cannot abide that.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 486	Posted - 2016.08.10 18:58:56 - [1313] - Quote Galaxy Chicken wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Socialites who mine to pay for "Chat Room Online" aren't hurting anybody... Exactly! They aren't hurting anybody! I don't know about you, but I simply cannot abide that. Well neither can Herzog - you 2 should get together and form a club.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7884	Posted - 2016.08.10 19:12:03 - [1314] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Galaxy Chicken wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Socialites who mine to pay for "Chat Room Online" aren't hurting anybody... Exactly! They aren't hurting anybody! I don't know about you, but I simply cannot abide that. Well neither can Herzog - you 2 should get together and form a club. Still failing to understand me I see. It's Ok. Not everybody has the power to understand things well. This is why I hate democracy too. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Sonya Corvinus Static-Noise Upholders 455	Posted - 2016.08.10 19:12:48 - [1315] - Quote Signal11th wrote: Because I'm old and pedantic, I set myself limits and stick to them, Plex goes over a bill I stop playing regardless of wether or not I can pay for it which I can do because I do on my other accounts but Signal was my first account and I always said as soon as I started if plex went over a bill that was it I would stop. it's not the time or grind just the fact I can. Christ I spend 10 quid a day on crap anyway and 10 quid a month for EVE isn;t going to bother me one bit but it's not about the money. One bill for a plex is my line in the sand. Do whatever you want, but grinding for plex (assuming you don't enjoy grinding) is a waste of the most valuable resource a person has: time
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 486	Posted - 2016.08.10 19:19:20 - [1316] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Still failing to understand me I see. It's Ok. Not everybody has the power to understand things well. This is why I hate democracy too. We can only read the words you write down - which were pretty explicit: Combat Combat Combat - everybody who doesn't do combat? Replace them with NPCs. The game shouldn't have them - they are victims and they set a bad example. I defy you to point to anything you have written in this discussion that disagrees with my analysis of your views. Please note, you've already been quoted - so editing your old posts does not count.
Galaxy Chicken Free Highsec Industrialists 71	Posted - 2016.08.10 19:31:00 - [1317] - Quote Well if you hate democracy, you're not going to fit into New Highsec.
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 600	Posted - 2016.08.10 20:19:13 - [1318] - Quote And this is why I'm always on the run.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7885	Posted - 2016.08.10 20:42:27 - [1319] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Still failing to understand me I see. It's Ok. Not everybody has the power to understand things well. This is why I hate democracy too. We can only read the words you write down - which were pretty explicit: Combat Combat Combat - everybody who doesn't do combat? Replace them with NPCs. The game shouldn't have them - they are victims and they set a bad example. I defy you to point to anything you have written in this discussion that disagrees with my analysis of your views. Please note, you've already been quoted - so editing your old posts does not count. I have not edited a thing. All I said was that if I were involved in the creation of Eve Online I would have made it so that mining and hauling were done by NPCs that players would hire and equip. I made it clear that this was a theoretical approach, a "had I been there from the start" concept. Where you got the idea that I want the present game to change and non-combatant players kicked out or told to change I have no idea. But possibly you have played in the "hurr durr I'm a PVPer and people want me nerfed" mindset so long that your filter is clogged and you will, like many of your ilk, always be combative so when a concept is fielded that does not comprise a threat, you still take it as a threat. You even accuse me editing posts as if trying to change it. But I have no reason to change it and stand by it: If I were involved in the creation of Eve Online every player would be a PVPer and all industrial tasks performed by NPCs that players would pay to hire and equip, and then have to defend from other players. But again, it's nothing new in the forums. But I sense you want confrontation, probably because the game is lacking in it for the reasons this thread exists. I will wait for you to deploy some reading comprehension skills and point out where I said that existing miners and haulers need to be removed from the existing Eve Online game. Considering your belligerent nature I won't be holding my breath. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 486	Posted - 2016.08.10 20:53:29 - [1320] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: I will wait for you to deploy some reading comprehension skills and point out where I said that existing miners and haulers need to be removed from the existing Eve Online game. OK then: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Why should every EVE player have to be a thrill-seeker or adrenaline junkie? Socialites who mine to pay for "Chat Room Online" aren't hurting anybody - they are making at least a small contribution to the game (arguably more in keeping others interested than in the minerals they provide, but whatever)... Why try to force them out of the game? Similarly the hard-core miners...what is wrong with them? These are the sorts of players who enjoy playing Minecraft without using any cheat-codes or modifications to make the game easier (they might mod it to make it harder). The sort who will actually excavate and mine until they find 10,000 diamonds to build a palace out of - just because they enjoy the process. Why should these players not have a place in EVE? Even the AFK miners aren't hurting the game significantly...even if they don't add anything to it... The only miners who are any kind of a problem are bots...and CCP has taken steps to minimize their impact as well. I would argue that botting carrier-ratters in 0.0 have a far greater impact in the modern EVE than botting miners do...and even that is fairly nonexistent for the most part. If you want thrills and adventure and content...Then get out there and do the things that provide that. There is no reason mining has to be one of them... As for your "Only Combat Ships" proposal, because "It's a PVP Game!"...I have a few things to say..... #1) This is an odd sentiment for, if I recall correctly, an anti-ganker? #2) Yes, in terms of PvP Combat content, the miners are sheep. However, most good miners who stick with EVE (and there are a surprisingly large number) find ways to deal with Combat players without unduly disrupting their mining operations. This is all part of the game - and I see no reason to punish them or remove their play-style just because they aren't dealing with Combat in the way you wish they would... Some people can't handle it, and they will quit - as long as they are the minority and/or they get replaced by new recruits, the game won't even notice. When that balance is upset - THAT is when CCP acts to change the game...but not to chase the rest of the miners out of the game - they only act to try to bring more players in, whatever form they may take. #3) PvP DOES NOT ONLY MEAN COMBAT!!! Seriously, get it through your thick skulls. PvP can take many forms - they do NOT all require weaponry or open combat. EVE is 100% a PvP game - NOT 100% a Combat game. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. Trust me, an active miner who collects a ton of ore and then speed-sells it at a rock-bottom price that crashes an entire market sector will draw far more tears than any PvP player killing a miner...Even if he never hears the crying/whining directly. **** - even just mining out an ice belt before the other miners get a chance to get any will net you a boat-load of tears. PvP takes many forms. I had a friend like you some years ago. We called him "Conan the Contrarian". Unlike the Barbarian counterpart he needed to hit the gym. I stopped reading when you showed your assumption that anti-ganking means anti-PVP. That display of ignorance is all I needed to know about the value of your opinions. There you go. I posted a nice long post not even directly attacking you, merely pointing out that mining and other non-combat forms of playing EVE are a valid part of the game - and that I feel it is important for people to have the option to participate in them. And your reply was that my opinion was worthless because I found your proposal to remove them all from the game strange, and you refused to read my points beyond that. From this I naturally concluded that you disagreed with my point that mining and other non-combat play-styles are a valid way to play EVE. If that was your way of saying I was right - then I'm sorry, but we are not speaking the same language... edit: Additionally since that post you have been attacking me repeatedly, very strongly implying that you disagreed with me that miners and other non-combatants should be allowed to play EVE... You may not have explicitly stated it, but you made it pretty clear that I was a horrible person for daring to suggest they have a place in the game, and I believe I drew the logical conclusion from your angry ranting.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 487	Posted - 2016.08.10 20:58:37 - [1321] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: But possibly you have played in the "hurr durr I'm a PVPer and people want me nerfed" mindset so long that your filter is clogged and you will, like many of your ilk, always be combative so when a concept is fielded that does not comprise a threat, you still take it as a threat. Additionally your reasoning for calling me a "hurr durr PvPer" is that I defended the right of people to play EVE without directly participating in ship to ship combat if that is their desire? But you are not a "hurr durr PvPer" because...you want to force everybody into ship-to-ship Combat whether they like it or not? Seriously...do you know how to read or perform any rational thought at all?
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5101	Posted - 2016.08.10 22:57:17 - [1322] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: But possibly you have played in the "hurr durr I'm a PVPer and people want me nerfed" mindset so long that your filter is clogged and you will, like many of your ilk, always be combative so when a concept is fielded that does not comprise a threat, you still take it as a threat. Additionally your reasoning for calling me a "hurr durr PvPer" is that I defended the right of people to play EVE without directly participating in ship to ship combat if that is their desire? But you are not a "hurr durr PvPer" because...you want to force everybody into ship-to-ship Combat whether they like it or not? Seriously...do you know how to read or perform any rational thought at all? I have to admit there is some damn fine irony there. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7885	Posted - 2016.08.11 00:33:34 - [1323] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: I will wait for you to deploy some reading comprehension skills and point out where I said that existing miners and haulers need to be removed from the existing Eve Online game. OK then: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Why should every EVE player have to be a thrill-seeker or adrenaline junkie? Socialites who mine to pay for "Chat Room Online" aren't hurting anybody - they are making at least a small contribution to the game (arguably more in keeping others interested than in the minerals they provide, but whatever)... Why try to force them out of the game? Similarly the hard-core miners...what is wrong with them? These are the sorts of players who enjoy playing Minecraft without using any cheat-codes or modifications to make the game easier (they might mod it to make it harder). The sort who will actually excavate and mine until they find 10,000 diamonds to build a palace out of - just because they enjoy the process. Why should these players not have a place in EVE? Even the AFK miners aren't hurting the game significantly...even if they don't add anything to it... The only miners who are any kind of a problem are bots...and CCP has taken steps to minimize their impact as well. I would argue that botting carrier-ratters in 0.0 have a far greater impact in the modern EVE than botting miners do...and even that is fairly nonexistent for the most part. If you want thrills and adventure and content...Then get out there and do the things that provide that. There is no reason mining has to be one of them... As for your "Only Combat Ships" proposal, because "It's a PVP Game!"...I have a few things to say..... #1) This is an odd sentiment for, if I recall correctly, an anti-ganker? #2) Yes, in terms of PvP Combat content, the miners are sheep. However, most good miners who stick with EVE (and there are a surprisingly large number) find ways to deal with Combat players without unduly disrupting their mining operations. This is all part of the game - and I see no reason to punish them or remove their play-style just because they aren't dealing with Combat in the way you wish they would... Some people can't handle it, and they will quit - as long as they are the minority and/or they get replaced by new recruits, the game won't even notice. When that balance is upset - THAT is when CCP acts to change the game...but not to chase the rest of the miners out of the game - they only act to try to bring more players in, whatever form they may take. #3) PvP DOES NOT ONLY MEAN COMBAT!!! Seriously, get it through your thick skulls. PvP can take many forms - they do NOT all require weaponry or open combat. EVE is 100% a PvP game - NOT 100% a Combat game. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. Trust me, an active miner who collects a ton of ore and then speed-sells it at a rock-bottom price that crashes an entire market sector will draw far more tears than any PvP player killing a miner...Even if he never hears the crying/whining directly. **** - even just mining out an ice belt before the other miners get a chance to get any will net you a boat-load of tears. PvP takes many forms. I had a friend like you some years ago. We called him "Conan the Contrarian". Unlike the Barbarian counterpart he needed to hit the gym. I stopped reading when you showed your assumption that anti-ganking means anti-PVP. That display of ignorance is all I needed to know about the value of your opinions. There you go. I posted a nice long post not even directly attacking you, merely pointing out that mining and other non-combat forms of playing EVE are a valid part of the game - and that I feel it is important for people to have the option to participate in them. And your reply was that my opinion was worthless because I found your proposal to remove them all from the game strange, and you refused to read my points beyond that. From this I naturally concluded that you disagreed with my point that mining and other non-combat play-styles are a valid way to play EVE. If that was your way of saying I was right - then I'm sorry, but we are not speaking the same language... edit: Additionally since that post you have been attacking me repeatedly, very strongly implying that you disagreed with me that miners and other non-combatants should be allowed to play EVE... You may not have explicitly stated it, but you made it pretty clear that I was a horrible person for daring to suggest they have a place in the game, and I believe I drew the logical conclusion from your angry ranting. In a full on display of why there are less people playing Eve, you double down on your accusation without proving or even attempting to prove it. I asked you to show me proof that I was going to change the existing game of Eve and "force" people to do things. You cannot, because I never said anybody should be "forced" to do anything. That's the job of the gankers, acolytes of Church of HTFU, and their cohorts in Iceland. You are wrong and will continue to be wrong until you can admit you were wrong. Good thing I didn't hold my breath. I can ignore you now, but I will worry about your type of mindset and what it can (and has) done IRL while hiding in a voting booth. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Shallanna Yassavi Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 314	Posted - 2016.08.11 01:38:14 - [1324] - Quote Robert Caldera wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: When it comes to making ISK it has always been a pretty "meh" process. Missions? Boring. Mining? Boring. Ratting in NS? Boring. PI? Boring. Reaction farms? Boring. Even alliance level ISK making is pretty awful. Moon mining? Boring. You have use a JF and make fuel blocks and on-lining and off-lining stuff is pretty boring. Managing a rental empire? Not all that different than working in property management I suspect. As a result we all try to find ways to make ISK with as little time spent in game as possible....or we tend to go semi-AFK. in which MMO is making money not a boring task? This one, if you get creative. You can mess with mission bears, from ransoming their objective to trying to get them to pull the trigger. You can scam people, either in a trade hub or by getting director-level access to a stack of researched capship BPOs. You can see if you can ambush someone ratting. You can lurk near ganknados in trade hubs and scoop them when they pull the trigger while chatting in local (have done occasionally). You can make off with the gankers' prizes. Or you can notice that some noob autopiloted an Astero through hostile empire space and got killed by faction police, leaving behind some shiny loot (have done). You can check to see if that hauling job you just took didn't make you put up enough collateral. A signature :o
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5102	Posted - 2016.08.11 04:37:12 - [1325] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: In a full on display of why there are less people playing Eve, you double down on your accusation without proving or even attempting to prove it. I asked you to show me proof that I was going to change the existing game of Eve and "force" people to do things. You cannot, because I never said anybody should be "forced" to do anything. That's the job of the gankers, acolytes of Church of HTFU, and their cohorts in Iceland. You are wrong and will continue to be wrong until you can admit you were wrong. Good thing I didn't hold my breath. I can ignore you now, but I will worry about your type of mindset and what it can (and has) done IRL while hiding in a voting booth. Holy mother of God....that is some damn fine nonsense. Actually, while Dirty Forum Alt may not be 100% correct here your views would certainly preclude a subset of players and is contrary to the notion of a sandbox game. In a sandbox game the whole of the law is do what thou wilt....to paraphrase Aleister Crowley. But you turn that on it's head by saying, you will only do combat PvP. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5102	Posted - 2016.08.11 04:38:27 - [1326] - Quote Shallanna Yassavi wrote: Robert Caldera wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: When it comes to making ISK it has always been a pretty "meh" process. Missions? Boring. Mining? Boring. Ratting in NS? Boring. PI? Boring. Reaction farms? Boring. Even alliance level ISK making is pretty awful. Moon mining? Boring. You have use a JF and make fuel blocks and on-lining and off-lining stuff is pretty boring. Managing a rental empire? Not all that different than working in property management I suspect. As a result we all try to find ways to make ISK with as little time spent in game as possible....or we tend to go semi-AFK. in which MMO is making money not a boring task? This one, if you get creative. You can mess with mission bears, from ransoming their objective to trying to get them to pull the trigger. You can scam people, either in a trade hub or by getting director-level access to a stack of researched capship BPOs. You can see if you can ambush someone ratting. You can lurk near ganknados in trade hubs and scoop them when they pull the trigger while chatting in local (have done occasionally). You can make off with the gankers' prizes. Or you can notice that some noob autopiloted an Astero through hostile empire space and got killed by faction police, leaving behind some shiny loot (have done). You can check to see if that hauling job you just took didn't make you put up enough collateral. I applaud you for your creativity. Well done. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5770	Posted - 2016.08.11 07:36:45 - [1327] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Shallanna Yassavi wrote: Robert Caldera wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: When it comes to making ISK it has always been a pretty "meh" process. Missions? Boring. Mining? Boring. Ratting in NS? Boring. PI? Boring. Reaction farms? Boring. Even alliance level ISK making is pretty awful. Moon mining? Boring. You have use a JF and make fuel blocks and on-lining and off-lining stuff is pretty boring. Managing a rental empire? Not all that different than working in property management I suspect. As a result we all try to find ways to make ISK with as little time spent in game as possible....or we tend to go semi-AFK. in which MMO is making money not a boring task? This one, if you get creative. You can mess with mission bears, from ransoming their objective to trying to get them to pull the trigger. You can scam people, either in a trade hub or by getting director-level access to a stack of researched capship BPOs. You can see if you can ambush someone ratting. You can lurk near ganknados in trade hubs and scoop them when they pull the trigger while chatting in local (have done occasionally). You can make off with the gankers' prizes. Or you can notice that some noob autopiloted an Astero through hostile empire space and got killed by faction police, leaving behind some shiny loot (have done). You can check to see if that hauling job you just took didn't make you put up enough collateral. I applaud you for your creativity. Well done. I'd add: "You can play the markets". For years I bought stuff in July - August at NN price and resold it at December / February (depends on which items, each got its seasonality) at 2 * NN price. Takes all of 1 hour to setup orders, twice a year. EvE Online portal \| EvE markets tutorials
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 488	Posted - 2016.08.11 10:48:43 - [1328] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: In a full on display of why there are less people playing Eve, you double down on your accusation without proving or even attempting to prove it. I asked you to show me proof that I was going to change the existing game of Eve and "force" people to do things. You cannot, because I never said anybody should be "forced" to do anything. That's the job of the gankers, acolytes of Church of HTFU, and their cohorts in Iceland. You are wrong and will continue to be wrong until you can admit you were wrong. Good thing I didn't hold my breath. I can ignore you now, but I will worry about your type of mindset and what it can (and has) done IRL while hiding in a voting booth. Very well, lets stop with drawing logical conclusions and just summarize what you have literally said then: No, Herzog Wolfhammer never said we should kick players out of the game explicitly. No, he does not have the power to change a single thing at all. Yes, Herzog Wolfhammer said that if he had been in charge of creating the game, he would never have included any non-combat play-styles, and would have replaced them all with bots (thus preventing any non-combat players from being able to play the game in the first place) - Proof Here Herzog Wolfhammer was also deeply offended by my general follow up post which simply stated that non-combat players play a valuable part in the game - and was upset that I disagreed with his vision of a perfect 100% combat EVE as it would prevent these players from ever having played. Proof Here When asked to clarify his position, Herzog Wolfhammer avoided the question - and resorted to insults and trolling. Proof Here Herzog Wolfhammer re-affirms his position that his vision of a game without any non-combat players would be the ideal one - once again implying that these players do not have value - Proof Here Herzog Wolfhammer suddenly starts claiming that I don't understand him, and rather than dealing with his repeated rants that the game would have been better without miners, haulers, or any other non-combat players (see previous proofs) - he focuses exclusively on the fact that he never said he was going to change the game itself... While this is technically true - it is only because as you lamented yourself in several of the posts linked above - you lack the power to do so. Now: Stop being a ***ing troll for 2 seconds and give us an honest answer. Do you or do you not stand by your assertions (linked above) that the game would be better if it had been designed as a 100% Combat game and if all non-Combat play-styles had been replaced by NPCs right from the beginning - because PER YOUR OWN POSTS* non-combat players have no value beyond providing victims for the Combat players to torment.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 489	Posted - 2016.08.11 11:34:38 - [1329] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: This is why I hate democracy too. Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: I will worry about your type of mindset and what it can (and has) done IRL while hiding in a voting booth. Also just a friendly warning from a fellow forum resident...Real Life Politics are explicitly banned from discussion on the EVE Online forums - so you may want to avoid the real-life insinuations and political references... Unless of course you want the ISDs to simply delete all of your posts and leave only my replies...
William Legrand-Marx Nemesis Ad Astra RUST415 18	Posted - 2016.08.11 11:38:21 - [1330] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: This is why I hate democracy too. Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: I will worry about your type of mindset and what it can (and has) done IRL while hiding in a voting booth. Also just a friendly warning from a fellow forum resident...Real Life Politics are explicitly banned from discussion on the EVE Online forums - so you may want to avoid the real-life insinuations and political references... Unless of course you want the ISDs to simply delete all of your posts and leave only my replies... I thought democracy is part of New Eden. Ah, must be delusions... There is nothing worthy in this world even if others think it is worth something...
William Legrand-Marx Nemesis Ad Astra RUST415 18	Posted - 2016.08.11 11:40:28 - [1331] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: In a full on display of why there are less people playing Eve, you double down on your accusation without proving or even attempting to prove it. I asked you to show me proof that I was going to change the existing game of Eve and "force" people to do things. You cannot, because I never said anybody should be "forced" to do anything. That's the job of the gankers, acolytes of Church of HTFU, and their cohorts in Iceland. You are wrong and will continue to be wrong until you can admit you were wrong. Good thing I didn't hold my breath. I can ignore you now Now: Stop being a ***ing troll for 2 seconds and give us an honest answer. Do you or do you not stand by your assertions (linked above) that the game would be better if it had been designed as a 100% Combat game and if all non-Combat play-styles had been replaced by NPCs right from the beginning - because PER YOUR OWN POSTS* non-combat players have no value beyond providing victims for the Combat players to torment. Not only combat targets but also capital resevoirs to feed bigger institutions. If everyone gets into combat only, this will be bad for those who live in it. Gaming communism is rather tarded idea. There is nothing worthy in this world even if others think it is worth something...
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 489	Posted - 2016.08.11 11:47:16 - [1332] - Quote William Legrand-Marx wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: This is why I hate democracy too. Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: I will worry about your type of mindset and what it can (and has) done IRL while hiding in a voting booth. Also just a friendly warning from a fellow forum resident...Real Life Politics are explicitly banned from discussion on the EVE Online forums - so you may want to avoid the real-life insinuations and political references... Unless of course you want the ISDs to simply delete all of your posts and leave only my replies... I thought democracy is part of New Eden. Ah, must be delusions... I haven't seen any voting booths in EVE to date... But I'm not even saying he has crossed any lines yet - just that he is skirting dangerously close to them, and if he keeps going he will get there. As I say - a warning. Pre-emptively. Before he gets himself in trouble.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2125	Posted - 2016.08.11 12:38:02 - [1333] - Quote Pretty good overview of some reasons why less players are playing: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/4x4su0/life_in_low_class_wh_in_a_scrub_corp/?st=irqb57la&sh=f4fa8796 Then gets nailed by a PL poster of all things: Quote: It's cool that your corp has persevered in wh's. 95% of those that have to deal with it stop trying pretty quickly. I particularly like seeing the larger entities come here and complain about WH population and then blame it on CCP like it is their fault. It ain't ccps fault the larger entities basically run a racket and remove anyone not willing to play ball on their terms. Population isn't low because of CCP, it's low because of exactly what you've explained. The bigger entities have farmed nearly all their content out of existence, refuse to fight each other, and then demand CCP buff wh income and make it easier for them. It's a fuckin joke and hilarious that they choose to demand a "fix" from CCP to bring them more content that just HAPPEN to fill their pockets and make it easier for them as well. And there you go, hisec gankers are just part of the same issue. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 489	Posted - 2016.08.11 12:56:37 - [1334] - Quote Well as Brokk (among others) has been pointing out all along: EVE is a lot more than just high-sec...Despite the way all conversations on the forums tend to get sucked into high-sec-only discussion.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2125	Posted - 2016.08.11 13:03:30 - [1335] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Well as Brokk (among others) has been pointing out all along: EVE is a lot more than just high-sec...Despite the way all conversations on the forums tend to get sucked into high-sec-only discussion. Well there are many issues, I had focused on the reduction in hisec first of all, but I was very aware of the WH changes, some friends of mine left WH space because of the change to how the Sleepers worked, they concluded it was not worth the effort. Last time I spoke to them they were smart bombing the hell out of certain Sanctums... But the basic principal of what is going on with that WH corp is applicable to all of Eve and goes back to my point of view that casual less endowed players are getting driven from the game by entitled older players. It looks like it is a race to the bottom. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 489	Posted - 2016.08.11 13:17:15 - [1336] - Quote To be fair - in most notable examples that have been cited the casual players being driven out of the game are actually "older" (in game) and have more sp/isk than the majority of the people driving them out... The problems with EVE are far more plentiful than the solutions - and I think pointing to any 1 thing as "the" problem is short-sighted and foolish. However, as far as the large blobs dominating everything - it is just the natural culmination of the blob-mentality that has dominated everything from the beginning. What is the #1 most given piece of advice given to anybody having a problem in EVE? Get friends. Join a group. Blob it. In that sense - perhaps we simply hit critical mass in 2013-ish when we had our peak number of players online - and enough people finally listened to this advice and joined the large blobbing groups to push them over the threshold of what was sustainable in EVE. If this is the case - then the initial player bleed would have been from the "victim" populations (aka: anybody who can't field the biggest blob) - with a follow-up loss of players more recently of the blobbers themselves realizing there is nothing left to do now that they are the sole dominant force in their segment of the galaxy. One can argue the specifics, and of course potential solutions to this... CCP is certainly starting to push anti-blob mechanics such as DPS limits on structures... But whether any of them will work is of course pure speculation. As is calling this "the biggest problem" in EVE - since again, it is just one of many...
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 3511	Posted - 2016.08.11 13:27:02 - [1337] - Quote DPS limits on structures aren't an anti blob mechanic. They are just a timer. The blob still affects the defence fleet attempts to save the structure. To introduce true anti blob mechanics you would need DPS limits on ships (Something I'm totally keen to see). And the same as structures they would need to be a purely numeric hard cap on damage because all the other methods are too easy to abuse. Fluff lore is easy to write to justify it. Then the F1 blob is suddenly highly inefficient, and will be cut apart by a well run fleet half it's size no problem. Obviously a well run large fleet is still going to be king of the hill, but at that point it's not just a matter of blobbing, but of extreme skill and co-ordination abilities to run that large a fleet that well. (Statement made assuming CCP set it so that 10 normal ships of any given size roughly reach the DPS cap when shooting another ship of the same size) The question of 'critical mass' or 'predator over population' I think is a good one to consider. And quite possibly an accurate call, though peak number of players and peak number of players in the large coalitions probably don't match up perfectly, and it's the ratio of players to players in blobs that dictates the magnitude of the issue. CCP are the only ones who could even try to answer this though since it needs active subs information, not simply daily concurrent logins.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14402	Posted - 2016.08.11 13:38:02 - [1338] - Quote This thread long ago passed the point of "way over thinking it". In fact, the 2 elements of this thread is Overthinink and piggybacking (ie "there is a problem in EVE there fore my pet issue of ganking/claoking/war dec/whatever must be the cause). The 'answer' is probably as simple as this "fewer people are playing MMOs in general, and any decline can be seen as part of that wider trend". Whether that is true or not we probably won't ever know. What IS clear is that no amount of masturbatory flailing in this thread is going to help anything. CCP isn't going to read this thread and have a bingo moment and fix things and we all live happily ever after. No need to take all this stuff so seriously, EVE is a game, if you aren't enjoying it GTFO.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2125	Posted - 2016.08.11 13:58:16 - [1339] - Quote Well one has to laugh at Jenn a'Snide and those sycophants who up voted that rant, this person has spent so much of its time calling on almost every single thread for level 4's to be nerfed over many years, perhaps this extremely odd person who delights in telling all and sundry just how brilliant they are should take its own advice.... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Wanda Fayne 249	Posted - 2016.08.11 14:02:22 - [1340] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: This thread long ago passed the point of "way over thinking it". In fact, the 2 elements of this thread is Overthinink and piggybacking (ie "there is a problem in EVE there fore my pet issue of ganking/claoking/war dec/whatever must be the cause). The 'answer' is probably as simple as this "fewer people are playing MMOs in general, and any decline can be seen as part of that wider trend". Whether that is true or not we probably won't ever know. What IS clear is that no amount of masturbatory flailing in this thread is going to help anything. CCP isn't going to read this thread and have a bingo moment and fix things and we all live happily ever after. No need to take all this stuff so seriously, EVE is a game, if you aren't enjoying it GTFO. There is one thing not mentioned anywhere in this over-bloated thread. Nowhere do I see anyone ask simply, "What can I do to make this game better?" your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic -Lan Wang-
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 601	Posted - 2016.08.11 14:03:09 - [1341] - Quote It's [TEST]. They made me do it! I had to upvote, sorry fam Truth be told, I did upvote it because I agree. Don't look at who posts it, look at what is written there. Owww I'm sorry for derailing: THIS is important stuff: Wanda Fayne wrote: Nowhere do I see anyone ask simply, "What can I do to make this game better?"
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14405	Posted - 2016.08.11 14:19:49 - [1342] - Quote Wanda Fayne wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: This thread long ago passed the point of "way over thinking it". In fact, the 2 elements of this thread is Overthinink and piggybacking (ie "there is a problem in EVE there fore my pet issue of ganking/claoking/war dec/whatever must be the cause). The 'answer' is probably as simple as this "fewer people are playing MMOs in general, and any decline can be seen as part of that wider trend". Whether that is true or not we probably won't ever know. What IS clear is that no amount of masturbatory flailing in this thread is going to help anything. CCP isn't going to read this thread and have a bingo moment and fix things and we all live happily ever after. No need to take all this stuff so seriously, EVE is a game, if you aren't enjoying it GTFO. There is one thing not mentioned anywhere in this over-bloated thread. Nowhere do I see anyone ask simply, "What can I do to make this game better?" Ironic thing is that is what many of the posters in this thread think they are doing. The OP probably thought calling attention to plex prices would help things (or at least himself lol). But it's not, it's turned into just another way for mentally unstable people to vent their spleens at an Icleandic Game Developer they could, you know, simply stop paying money to if they hate the direction of the game this much.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14405	Posted - 2016.08.11 14:25:11 - [1343] - Quote BTW, has this thread turned into RAPID yet?
Blood Retributor Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 39	Posted - 2016.08.11 14:25:20 - [1344] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: What IS clear is that no amount of masturbatory flailing in this thread is going to help anything. CCP isn't going to read this thread and have a bingo moment and fix things and we all live happily ever after. No need to take all this stuff so seriously, EVE is a game, if you aren't enjoying it GTFO. And again I would totally agree with Jenn. Judging by your (older players') posts in these forums nobody cares anyway. Yesterday I was going to post a wall of text with some "revelations" regarding CCP's attempts to sit in between two chairs. Half way through I deleted everything. Decided to save some of your time and mine too. CCP owns the game and they do what they please. Will it work out or not remains to be seen. o7
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2125	Posted - 2016.08.11 14:25:20 - [1345] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: It's [TEST]. They made me do it! I had to upvote, sorry fam Truth be told, I did upvote it because I agree. Don't look at who posts it, look at what is written there. For years Eve bucked the trend of MMO decline, you for example like small fleet combat as do I, Eve has some great mechanics there, really good stuff and pretty sophisticated at the tactical level. That is what many people do not want to lose. So yes we are aware of the downward trend in PC MMO's, yes if we don't enjoy it then get the hell out, but what gets many people back is the sophistication of certain core parts of the game which they do not find in other games. The issue is game balance which favours certain players and game styles, I suggested some balancing there, CCP made some good moves on their anti-blob efforts but they need to look at other imbalances such as the lack of consequences for ganking and issues on some game mechanics that make it easier for them which I have detailed in this thread. They made some good moves in making it less of a chore for example baby sitting a Citadel and sov basing it on when you are likely to be active, putting the onus of alarm clocking on the attacker. I cam back for the Citadels and was really annoyed to find that the Mediums had the market taken out of them, I expected that came from 0.0 players blocking that one. Which is another problem in terms of who CCP listens to. As for the question Quote: What can I do to make this game better? Perhaps the person posing that question could start the ball rolling, especially as in this thread I and a number of others made valid suggestions on certain changes that would improve things which they ignored in making that comment. Unless that comment is talking about doing stuff in game? That is why making such comments people need to put forth their own views, making one liner comments like that is easy. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26582	Posted - 2016.08.11 15:17:08 - [1346] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: The issue is game balance which favours certain players and game styles, I suggested some balancing there, CCP made some good moves on their anti-blob efforts IMHO the current game balance favours the AFK, the stupid and the greedy, not those who use the mechanics fully; especially in hisec. Quote: but they need to look at other imbalances such as the lack of consequences for ganking and issues on some game mechanics that make it easier for them which I have detailed in this thread. The mechanical consequences for ganking are adequate, they certainly seem to discourage the vast majority of people from doing it . Player driven consequences for ganking are a little on the light side I'll give you that, and I'll leave it to the imagination why this is the case. Quote: They made some good moves in making it less of a chore for example baby sitting a Citadel and sov basing it on when you are likely to be active, putting the onus of alarm clocking on the attacker. I cam back for the Citadels and was really annoyed to find that the Mediums had the market taken out of them, I expected that came from 0.0 players blocking that one. Which is another problem in terms of who CCP listens to. CCP run stuff past the CSM, CSM members are elected by the playerbase, it's not CCPs fault that the majority of hisec players aren't engaged enough in the game to elect somebody that represents their interests; this is known as voter apathy and is also a problem in the real world. Quote: As for the question Quote: What can I do to make this game better? Perhaps the person posing that question could start the ball rolling, especially as in this thread I and a number of others made valid suggestions on certain changes that would improve things which they ignored in making that comment. Unless that comment is talking about doing stuff in game? That is why making such comments people need to put forth their own views, making one liner comments like that is easy. What you see as changes that improve the game, others see as changes that detract from the game, both sides of the argument are nothing more than opinion. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2126	Posted - 2016.08.11 15:29:21 - [1347] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Normal drivel Don't you ever get the message, I think you are a complete waste of space, your opinions are crap and matter not to me, I did not even read a single word of what you just wasted your time writing, I am sure its just one big yawn of stuff you regurgitate from your rear end. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26583	Posted - 2016.08.11 15:32:43 - [1348] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Normal drivel Don't you ever get the message, I think you are a complete waste of space, your opinions are crap and matter not to me, I did not even read a single word of what you just wasted your time writing, I am sure its just one big yawn of stuff you regurgitate from your rear end. I'm not interested in your opinion of myself; as a paying subscriber I have as much right to put forth my views as anybody else, and you are free to disagree with them. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 491	Posted - 2016.08.11 15:40:08 - [1349] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: DPS limits on structures aren't an anti blob mechanic. They are just a timer. The blob still affects the defence fleet attempts to save the structure. To introduce true anti blob mechanics you would need DPS limits on ships (Something I'm totally keen to see). And the same as structures they would need to be a purely numeric hard cap on damage because all the other methods are too easy to abuse. Fluff lore is easy to write to justify it. Then the F1 blob is suddenly highly inefficient, and will be cut apart by a well run fleet half it's size no problem. Obviously a well run large fleet is still going to be king of the hill, but at that point it's not just a matter of blobbing, but of extreme skill and co-ordination abilities to run that large a fleet that well. (Statement made assuming CCP set it so that 10 normal ships of any given size roughly reach the DPS cap when shooting another ship of the same size) The question of 'critical mass' or 'predator over population' I think is a good one to consider. And quite possibly an accurate call, though peak number of players and peak number of players in the large coalitions probably don't match up perfectly, and it's the ratio of players to players in blobs that dictates the magnitude of the issue. CCP are the only ones who could even try to answer this though since it needs active subs information, not simply daily concurrent logins. I believe CCP views them as an anti-blob measure. I'll grant you though they are not an effective one. They are still very early in this process - keep an eye on upcoming updates to see how well they do moving forward.
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 601	Posted - 2016.08.11 15:42:09 - [1350] - Quote There need not be an anti-blob measure; it is normal the guys with the manpower win. But it is entirely possible to win uphill fights due to piloting skill. All is well in New Eden.
Blood Retributor Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 40	Posted - 2016.08.11 15:51:23 - [1351] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: All is well in New Eden. Are you sure ? Doesn't look like it . Please ignore !
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 491	Posted - 2016.08.11 15:51:36 - [1352] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: There need not be an anti-blob measure; it is normal the guys with the manpower win. But it is entirely possible to win uphill fights due to piloting skill. All is well in New Eden. Well yes and no...beyond a certain point no amount of piloting skill is going to save you... And I've noticed more and more Sov-Space fights end without a shot being fired: Both sides form up, the smaller fleet stands down without undocking, the larger fleet grinds whatever timer they are working on, and life goes on without a ship being lost. Not 100% of the time of course - but it does happen disturbingly often. But in general principle I agree that anti-blob measures are not needed - it is a self correcting issue, and the game will find its own balance. However from Entosis-based sov to the DPS limitations on Citadels/etc... I do believe that CCP has decided anti-blob measures are needed - and will be releasing more of them. What the consequences will be? Well...we won't know until they implement them....
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7888	Posted - 2016.08.11 17:09:39 - [1353] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: DPS limits on structures aren't an anti blob mechanic. They are just a timer. The blob still affects the defence fleet attempts to save the structure. To introduce true anti blob mechanics you would need DPS limits on ships (Something I'm totally keen to see). And the same as structures they would need to be a purely numeric hard cap on damage because all the other methods are too easy to abuse. Fluff lore is easy to write to justify it. Then the F1 blob is suddenly highly inefficient, and will be cut apart by a well run fleet half it's size no problem. Obviously a well run large fleet is still going to be king of the hill, but at that point it's not just a matter of blobbing, but of extreme skill and co-ordination abilities to run that large a fleet that well. (Statement made assuming CCP set it so that 10 normal ships of any given size roughly reach the DPS cap when shooting another ship of the same size) The question of 'critical mass' or 'predator over population' I think is a good one to consider. And quite possibly an accurate call, though peak number of players and peak number of players in the large coalitions probably don't match up perfectly, and it's the ratio of players to players in blobs that dictates the magnitude of the issue. CCP are the only ones who could even try to answer this though since it needs active subs information, not simply daily concurrent logins. In another fantastical proposition, had I been in the same room as those who devised Eve Online, or as I like to say "were it up to me"Gäó the way tracking systems worked would have been vastly different. That is, the more targeting systems locking up a target of a given size, the less reliable the ability to lock it becomes and at a certain point a limit is reached on how many targeting systems can lock it. So imagine how Eve Online would have been if for example a frigate could be locked by 2 or 3 other frigates, or a couple of cruiser/battlecruisers, or one battleship? Or conversely, a cruiser can be locked up by 5 or 6 frigates, a couple of other cruisers, or a couple of battleships? Working up the chain, a battleship might be locked by 7 or 8 frigates, 3-4 cruisers, or 2-3 other battleships. Etc. etc. That would have been the end of F1 fleet monkey blobbing. Imagine that. Imagine having to split fleets into operating on the wing and squad level. Imagine instead of one FC calling a primary, the FC had to command and rely on wing commanders, and the wing commanders had to rely on squad leaders. Fleets would have been way more interesting and headshotting the FC would not have been a thing. Elsewhere, blobbing and gate-raep/instaPWN gate camping would not have been "the thing". Imagine that too. Somebody at some point might have had that vision for, apparently, that's how the fleet is structured. I'm sure my good friend Dirty Forum Alt will now accuse me of wanting to force brainless F1 fleet monkeys and gate campers out of the game. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 491	Posted - 2016.08.11 17:21:52 - [1354] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: I'm sure my good friend Dirty Forum Alt will now accuse me of wanting to force brainless F1 fleet monkeys and gate campers out of the game. Actually although I think there are some flaws with it (to be expected in the initial proposal of any system), I think this one is actually an interesting proposal that wouldn't remove any play styles from the game. I'd be happy to have a discussion about refining it to actually work if you were interested... But you are clearly just trolling (again) - so I think I won't waste my time even trying.
Shallanna Yassavi Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 316	Posted - 2016.08.11 17:56:58 - [1355] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Nevyn Auscent wrote: DPS limits on structures aren't an anti blob mechanic. They are just a timer. The blob still affects the defence fleet attempts to save the structure. To introduce true anti blob mechanics you would need DPS limits on ships (Something I'm totally keen to see). And the same as structures they would need to be a purely numeric hard cap on damage because all the other methods are too easy to abuse. Fluff lore is easy to write to justify it. Then the F1 blob is suddenly highly inefficient, and will be cut apart by a well run fleet half it's size no problem. Obviously a well run large fleet is still going to be king of the hill, but at that point it's not just a matter of blobbing, but of extreme skill and co-ordination abilities to run that large a fleet that well. (Statement made assuming CCP set it so that 10 normal ships of any given size roughly reach the DPS cap when shooting another ship of the same size) The question of 'critical mass' or 'predator over population' I think is a good one to consider. And quite possibly an accurate call, though peak number of players and peak number of players in the large coalitions probably don't match up perfectly, and it's the ratio of players to players in blobs that dictates the magnitude of the issue. CCP are the only ones who could even try to answer this though since it needs active subs information, not simply daily concurrent logins. In another fantastical proposition, had I been in the same room as those who devised Eve Online, or as I like to say "were it up to me"Gäó the way tracking systems worked would have been vastly different. That is, the more targeting systems locking up a target of a given size, the less reliable the ability to lock it becomes and at a certain point a limit is reached on how many targeting systems can lock it. So imagine how Eve Online would have been if for example a frigate could be locked by 2 or 3 other frigates, or a couple of cruiser/battlecruisers, or one battleship? Or conversely, a cruiser can be locked up by 5 or 6 frigates, a couple of other cruisers, or a couple of battleships? Working up the chain, a battleship might be locked by 7 or 8 frigates, 3-4 cruisers, or 2-3 other battleships. Etc. etc. That would have been the end of F1 fleet monkey blobbing. Imagine that. Imagine having to split fleets into operating on the wing and squad level. Imagine instead of one FC calling a primary, the FC had to command and rely on wing commanders, and the wing commanders had to rely on squad leaders. Fleets would have been way more interesting and headshotting the FC would not have been a thing. Elsewhere, blobbing and gate-raep/instaPWN gate camping would not have been "the thing". Imagine that too. Somebody at some point might have had that vision for, apparently, that's how the fleet is structured. I'm sure my good friend Dirty Forum Alt will now accuse me of wanting to force brainless F1 fleet monkeys and gate campers out of the game. You just described what would happen if every ship in the game got a target spectrum breaker. Under that mechanic, if: I wanted to prevent anyone from targeting my fleet in a reasonable amount of time, I'd have everyone i fleet yellowbox each other. I wanted to prevent enemy logi from landing, I'd blob anyway. If my whole fleet is locked on to something, enemy logi won't be able to do anything unless it already has your target locked. A signature :o
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14408	Posted - 2016.08.11 18:02:45 - [1356] - Quote Shallanna Yassavi wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Nevyn Auscent wrote: DPS limits on structures aren't an anti blob mechanic. They are just a timer. The blob still affects the defence fleet attempts to save the structure. To introduce true anti blob mechanics you would need DPS limits on ships (Something I'm totally keen to see). And the same as structures they would need to be a purely numeric hard cap on damage because all the other methods are too easy to abuse. Fluff lore is easy to write to justify it. Then the F1 blob is suddenly highly inefficient, and will be cut apart by a well run fleet half it's size no problem. Obviously a well run large fleet is still going to be king of the hill, but at that point it's not just a matter of blobbing, but of extreme skill and co-ordination abilities to run that large a fleet that well. (Statement made assuming CCP set it so that 10 normal ships of any given size roughly reach the DPS cap when shooting another ship of the same size) The question of 'critical mass' or 'predator over population' I think is a good one to consider. And quite possibly an accurate call, though peak number of players and peak number of players in the large coalitions probably don't match up perfectly, and it's the ratio of players to players in blobs that dictates the magnitude of the issue. CCP are the only ones who could even try to answer this though since it needs active subs information, not simply daily concurrent logins. In another fantastical proposition, had I been in the same room as those who devised Eve Online, or as I like to say "were it up to me"Gäó the way tracking systems worked would have been vastly different. That is, the more targeting systems locking up a target of a given size, the less reliable the ability to lock it becomes and at a certain point a limit is reached on how many targeting systems can lock it. So imagine how Eve Online would have been if for example a frigate could be locked by 2 or 3 other frigates, or a couple of cruiser/battlecruisers, or one battleship? Or conversely, a cruiser can be locked up by 5 or 6 frigates, a couple of other cruisers, or a couple of battleships? Working up the chain, a battleship might be locked by 7 or 8 frigates, 3-4 cruisers, or 2-3 other battleships. Etc. etc. That would have been the end of F1 fleet monkey blobbing. Imagine that. Imagine having to split fleets into operating on the wing and squad level. Imagine instead of one FC calling a primary, the FC had to command and rely on wing commanders, and the wing commanders had to rely on squad leaders. Fleets would have been way more interesting and headshotting the FC would not have been a thing. Elsewhere, blobbing and gate-raep/instaPWN gate camping would not have been "the thing". Imagine that too. Somebody at some point might have had that vision for, apparently, that's how the fleet is structured. I'm sure my good friend Dirty Forum Alt will now accuse me of wanting to force brainless F1 fleet monkeys and gate campers out of the game. You just described what would happen if every ship in the game got a target spectrum breaker. Under that mechanic, if: I wanted to prevent anyone from targeting my fleet in a reasonable amount of time, I'd have everyone i fleet yellowbox each other. I wanted to prevent enemy logi from landing, I'd blob anyway. If my whole fleet is locked on to something, enemy logi won't be able to do anything unless it already has your target locked. How many times have we seen this? Know-it-all bright ideas guy (the very same "just dial in a system and get rid of gates" guy no less lol) has brilliant idea... ...And everyone else sees the fatal flaw in that idea that makes it unworkable and dumb no more than 0.3 seconds later (something the bright idea guy could have figured out if he's spent 0.3 more seconds on it)... The above quoted situation was a recreation of what happens in the ~~"I know better than professional developers who have made actual money making games" forum~~ features and ideas forum.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7888	Posted - 2016.08.11 18:26:26 - [1357] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Shallanna Yassavi wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Nevyn Auscent wrote: DPS limits on structures aren't an anti blob mechanic. They are just a timer. The blob still affects the defence fleet attempts to save the structure. To introduce true anti blob mechanics you would need DPS limits on ships (Something I'm totally keen to see). And the same as structures they would need to be a purely numeric hard cap on damage because all the other methods are too easy to abuse. Fluff lore is easy to write to justify it. Then the F1 blob is suddenly highly inefficient, and will be cut apart by a well run fleet half it's size no problem. Obviously a well run large fleet is still going to be king of the hill, but at that point it's not just a matter of blobbing, but of extreme skill and co-ordination abilities to run that large a fleet that well. (Statement made assuming CCP set it so that 10 normal ships of any given size roughly reach the DPS cap when shooting another ship of the same size) The question of 'critical mass' or 'predator over population' I think is a good one to consider. And quite possibly an accurate call, though peak number of players and peak number of players in the large coalitions probably don't match up perfectly, and it's the ratio of players to players in blobs that dictates the magnitude of the issue. CCP are the only ones who could even try to answer this though since it needs active subs information, not simply daily concurrent logins. In another fantastical proposition, had I been in the same room as those who devised Eve Online, or as I like to say "were it up to me"Gäó the way tracking systems worked would have been vastly different. That is, the more targeting systems locking up a target of a given size, the less reliable the ability to lock it becomes and at a certain point a limit is reached on how many targeting systems can lock it. So imagine how Eve Online would have been if for example a frigate could be locked by 2 or 3 other frigates, or a couple of cruiser/battlecruisers, or one battleship? Or conversely, a cruiser can be locked up by 5 or 6 frigates, a couple of other cruisers, or a couple of battleships? Working up the chain, a battleship might be locked by 7 or 8 frigates, 3-4 cruisers, or 2-3 other battleships. Etc. etc. That would have been the end of F1 fleet monkey blobbing. Imagine that. Imagine having to split fleets into operating on the wing and squad level. Imagine instead of one FC calling a primary, the FC had to command and rely on wing commanders, and the wing commanders had to rely on squad leaders. Fleets would have been way more interesting and headshotting the FC would not have been a thing. Elsewhere, blobbing and gate-raep/instaPWN gate camping would not have been "the thing". Imagine that too. Somebody at some point might have had that vision for, apparently, that's how the fleet is structured. I'm sure my good friend Dirty Forum Alt will now accuse me of wanting to force brainless F1 fleet monkeys and gate campers out of the game. You just described what would happen if every ship in the game got a target spectrum breaker. Under that mechanic, if: I wanted to prevent anyone from targeting my fleet in a reasonable amount of time, I'd have everyone i fleet yellowbox each other. I wanted to prevent enemy logi from landing, I'd blob anyway. If my whole fleet is locked on to something, enemy logi won't be able to do anything unless it already has your target locked. How many times have we seen this? Know-it-all bright ideas guy (the very same "just dial in a system and get rid of gates" guy no less lol) has brilliant idea... ...And everyone else sees the fatal flaw in that idea that makes it unworkable and dumb no more than 0.3 seconds later (something the bright idea guy could have figured out if he's spent 0.3 more seconds on it)... The above quoted situation was a recreation of what happens in the ~~"I know better than professional developers who have made actual money making games" forum~~ features and ideas forum. I see you are your usual self. BTW I have been writing code since 1984 and once converted a C++ 3D engine to Java before the days of Java3D and JOGL - late 90s actually. But go ahead and be yourself. It's perfect for this thread. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Solecist Project 32019	Posted - 2016.08.11 18:27:54 - [1358] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: How many times have we seen this? Know-it-all bright ideas guy (the very same "just dial in a system and get rid of gates" guy no less lol) has brilliant idea... ...And everyone else sees the fatal flaw in that idea that makes it unworkable and dumb no more than 0.3 seconds later (something the bright idea guy could have figured out if he's spent 0.3 more seconds on it)... The above quoted situation was a recreation of what happens in the ~~"I know better than professional developers who have made actual money making games" forum~~ features and ideas forum. Cut him some slack. A dps barrier isn't professional game design. It's lazy. An invulnerability button isn't professional game design. It's lazy. A 15min gcc isn't professional game design. It's desperation. Cnanging game-mechanics that promoted interaction for most of the lifetime of the game ... ... into game-mechanics that promote "lawfull behaviour" ... ... isn't professional game design either. Concentrating on the NPE instead of the fundamentals that actually create the ingame reality of new players ... ... isn't professional game design either. You say "professional" as if it really meant anything. It doesn't. It's nothing but a buzzword. It claims that those who do something know what they are doing. I've seen so many programmers being so horribly clueless about programming ... ... yet they'd be called professionals for learning that **** at "school". "Professional" says nothing about those who do what they do. Unless you meant "professional" as an insult, then disregard. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14409	Posted - 2016.08.11 18:34:49 - [1359] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: I see you are your usual self. BTW I have been writing code since 1984 and once converted a C++ 3D engine to Java before the days of Java3D and JOGL - late 90s actually. But go ahead and be yourself. It's perfect for this thread. I'm sorry, didn't see the part where you made any money designing a game that hundreds of thousands of people would play. When we get to talk about coding rather than game design I'm sure we'll keep you in mind... but hey, if it makes you feel better to blame your unworkable ill thought out idea on my posting words on a forum, have at it, we all know how hard self criticism (that would have prevented you from posting the bad idea in the 1st place) can be on tender egos.
Solecist Project 32019	Posted - 2016.08.11 18:40:45 - [1360] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: I see you are your usual self. BTW I have been writing code since 1984 and once converted a C++ 3D engine to Java before the days of Java3D and JOGL - late 90s actually. But go ahead and be yourself. It's perfect for this thread. please know that me mentioning programmers above had nothing to do with this post. When you sent that i was still typing and unaware. Also, since you're an oldschooler you most likely don't suck anyway. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Spurty 1635	Posted - 2016.08.11 18:40:50 - [1361] - Quote The daily reward of Skill Points got me eager to log in and undock. Then they removed that. Whatever their reasons, was a "backward motion" from my POV. There are good ships, And wood ships, And ships that sail the sea But the best ships are Spaceships Built by CCP
Commander Spurty 1636	Posted - 2016.08.11 18:40:50 - [1362] - Quote The daily reward of Skill Points got me eager to log in and undock. Then they removed that. Whatever their reasons, was a "backward motion" from my POV. There are good ships, And wood ships, And ships that sail the sea But the best ships are Spaceships Built by CCP
Denavit We are not bad. Just unlucky DARKNESS. 15	Posted - 2016.08.11 19:21:42 - [1363] - Quote there has been tons of feedback, but no clear answer, so maybe a conjunction of all of them?
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17345	Posted - 2016.08.11 19:35:05 - [1364] - Quote Denavit wrote: there has been tons of feedback, but no clear answer, so maybe a conjunction of all of them? [magic roundabout theme] Some like eve , a lot dont. A lot like other games, some dont. Grr ganking/war/blobbing whaaaaaaaaah why am i responible for my own safety great game exept for all the other people playing it Nu uah, Nu uah, No you are! ~~Mammy~~ CCP he ~~kicked~~ griefed meeee! And round and round we go [/magic toundabout theme] =]\|[=
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7888	Posted - 2016.08.11 19:50:12 - [1365] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: I see you are your usual self. BTW I have been writing code since 1984 and once converted a C++ 3D engine to Java before the days of Java3D and JOGL - late 90s actually. But go ahead and be yourself. It's perfect for this thread. I'm sorry, didn't see the part where you made any money designing a game that hundreds of thousands of people would play. When we get to talk about coding rather than game design I'm sure we'll keep you in mind... but hey, if it makes you feel better to blame your unworkable ill thought out idea on my posting words on a forum, have at it, we all know how hard self criticism (that would have prevented you from posting the bad idea in the 1st place) can be on tender egos. I never got into game programming because there was other work to do. Would have loved to be a game developer but my career took me into other paths. While I cut my teeth with BASIC on the Commodore Pet and Vic-20 (and those were games actually) the "real" stuff would happen later as an adult with military avionics. After that I got hung up in the late 90s writing computer programs that would go into source code of other programs then seek out, correct and recompile/link any Y2K bugs that it found. I was not going manually look through endless programs, many written in the 1950s. Remember the movie "Office Space"? I had the exact same job as the protagonist but rather than complain about it I cut projected task times down from years to months. After that things got weird but while I didn't get that job at NASA programming the SRBs like I wanted I did end up on some collaborations and also got into network stuff too. But my path would lead to programming robots that built the electronics of other robots. When you fly in a 787 keep in mind that the program building the electronics for it was originally developed by me around 10 years ago (engineers did the CAD parts that placed components but I had to teach the system how to recognize them). Now I'm involved in crypto stuff. Guess I'm a failure because I didn't make a game. Boo hoo. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5771	Posted - 2016.08.11 19:59:35 - [1366] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: I never got into game programming because there was other work to do. Would have loved to be a game developer but my career took me into other paths. While I cut my teeth with BASIC on the Commodore Pet and Vic-20 (and those were games actually) the "real" stuff would happen later as an adult with military avionics. I have done that too, VIC 20 was so much of a step forward compared to my previous experiences with VAX, Unix and similar! I started by designing (at school during English Literature lessons ) and then making my own microprocessor, with a dip switch to manually set the program counter and other dip switches to pick which RAM cells to read / write to THAT was life! EvE Online portal \| EvE markets tutorials
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14411	Posted - 2016.08.11 20:00:32 - [1367] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: I see you are your usual self. BTW I have been writing code since 1984 and once converted a C++ 3D engine to Java before the days of Java3D and JOGL - late 90s actually. But go ahead and be yourself. It's perfect for this thread. I'm sorry, didn't see the part where you made any money designing a game that hundreds of thousands of people would play. When we get to talk about coding rather than game design I'm sure we'll keep you in mind... but hey, if it makes you feel better to blame your unworkable ill thought out idea on my posting words on a forum, have at it, we all know how hard self criticism (that would have prevented you from posting the bad idea in the 1st place) can be on tender egos. I never got into game programming because there was other work to do. Would have loved to be a game developer but my career took me into other paths. While I cut my teeth with BASIC on the Commodore Pet and Vic-20 (and those were games actually) the "real" stuff would happen later as an adult with military avionics. After that I got hung up in the late 90s writing computer programs that would go into source code of other programs then seek out, correct and recompile/link any Y2K bugs that it found. I was not going manually look through endless programs, many written in the 1950s. Remember the movie "Office Space"? I had the exact same job as the protagonist but rather than complain about it I cut projected task times down from years to months. After that things got weird but while I didn't get that job at NASA programming the SRBs like I wanted I did end up on some collaborations and also got into network stuff too. But my path would lead to programming robots that built the electronics of other robots. When you fly in a 787 keep in mind that the program building the electronics for it was originally developed by me around 10 years ago (engineers did the CAD parts that placed components but I had to teach the system how to recognize them). Now I'm involved in crypto stuff. Guess I'm a failure because I didn't make a game. Boo hoo. No, you're not a failure because you didn't make a game, congrats on having a job you like. The failure is your inability to understand that your game ideas are horribly bad (and also that none of what you are talking about has anything to do with this discussion). That has nothing to do with your real life work.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5103	Posted - 2016.08.11 20:29:14 - [1368] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Pretty good overview of some reasons why less players are playing: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/4x4su0/life_in_low_class_wh_in_a_scrub_corp/?st=irqb57la&sh=f4fa8796 Then gets nailed by a PL poster of all things: Quote: It's cool that your corp has persevered in wh's. 95% of those that have to deal with it stop trying pretty quickly. I particularly like seeing the larger entities come here and complain about WH population and then blame it on CCP like it is their fault. It ain't ccps fault the larger entities basically run a racket and remove anyone not willing to play ball on their terms. Population isn't low because of CCP, it's low because of exactly what you've explained. The bigger entities have farmed nearly all their content out of existence, refuse to fight each other, and then demand CCP buff wh income and make it easier for them. It's a fuckin joke and hilarious that they choose to demand a "fix" from CCP to bring them more content that just HAPPEN to fill their pockets and make it easier for them as well. And there you go, hisec gankers are just part of the same issue. Yes, because years ago life in Eve was full of rainbows, unicorns and candy canes everywhere. But then, gankers came to Eve and ruined everything by shooting people who were just trying to have fun. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Galaxy Chicken Free Highsec Industrialists 72	Posted - 2016.08.11 20:57:05 - [1369] - Quote We're working on stealing the title of "Cancer that is Killing EVE" away from the gonz.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7889	Posted - 2016.08.11 21:14:46 - [1370] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: I never got into game programming because there was other work to do. Would have loved to be a game developer but my career took me into other paths. While I cut my teeth with BASIC on the Commodore Pet and Vic-20 (and those were games actually) the "real" stuff would happen later as an adult with military avionics. I have done that too, VIC 20 was so much of a step forward compared to my previous experiences with VAX, Unix and similar! I started by designing (at school during English Literature lessons ) and then making my own microprocessor, with a dip switch to manually set the program counter and other dip switches to pick which RAM cells to read / write to THAT was life! I wanted a Timex-Sinclair TS-1000 but could not come up with the hundred bucks for it. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Elyham Gordon Gekko Trading Academy Peaceful Industrialists 41	Posted - 2016.08.11 22:29:12 - [1371] - Quote Adoris Nolen wrote: MidnightWyvern wrote: People seem to keep discounting that one. A lot of the original 2003 crowd are growing up, settling down, or just moving on with their lives. This. I'm in the latter part of a decade on EVE. In my freaking 30's. Priorities change. Perhaps. Some of us were over 30 when this game came out... :)
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5103	Posted - 2016.08.12 05:10:17 - [1372] - Quote Elyham wrote: Adoris Nolen wrote: MidnightWyvern wrote: People seem to keep discounting that one. A lot of the original 2003 crowd are growing up, settling down, or just moving on with their lives. This. I'm in the latter part of a decade on EVE. In my freaking 30's. Priorities change. Perhaps. Some of us were over 30 when this game came out... :) Indeed.... "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2134	Posted - 2016.08.12 07:29:35 - [1373] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Pretty good overview of some reasons why less players are playing: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/4x4su0/life_in_low_class_wh_in_a_scrub_corp/?st=irqb57la&sh=f4fa8796 Then gets nailed by a PL poster of all things: Quote: It's cool that your corp has persevered in wh's. 95% of those that have to deal with it stop trying pretty quickly. I particularly like seeing the larger entities come here and complain about WH population and then blame it on CCP like it is their fault. It ain't ccps fault the larger entities basically run a racket and remove anyone not willing to play ball on their terms. Population isn't low because of CCP, it's low because of exactly what you've explained. The bigger entities have farmed nearly all their content out of existence, refuse to fight each other, and then demand CCP buff wh income and make it easier for them. It's a fuckin joke and hilarious that they choose to demand a "fix" from CCP to bring them more content that just HAPPEN to fill their pockets and make it easier for them as well. And there you go, hisec gankers are just part of the same issue. Yes, because years ago life in Eve was full of rainbows, unicorns and candy canes everywhere. But then, gankers came to Eve and ruined everything by shooting people who were just trying to have fun. Teckos misses the point yet again And projects his own fears on what I just pointed out, but let me reassure you, CCP will not remove ganking and war decs from the game, I for one would not want to see that happen, but they do need to improve the balance a bit and remove some quite stupid exploits, for example the fix on bumping has still not been applied..., consequences need to be consequences and the loot scooping one, is just so meh. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
March rabbit Mosquito Squadron The-Culture 1855	Posted - 2016.08.12 08:14:00 - [1374] - Quote Wanda Fayne wrote: There is one thing not mentioned anywhere in this over-bloated thread. Nowhere do I see anyone ask simply, "What can I do to make this game better?" The reasons are simple: - every person has his own vision of what is better EVE. - Who you want people to ask this question to? - Why opinion of that one worth more that opinion of any other one? - every player already does something to make the game better. How do they do it? By having payed accounts thus giving money to developers. The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1159	Posted - 2016.08.12 09:01:32 - [1375] - Quote Simple answer. The player base is made up of a majority of sociopaths. It drives new players away. Player base gets smaller and smaller. Only bittervets remain. Most of them only sub 2 months out of a year as it is. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17836	Posted - 2016.08.12 10:47:44 - [1376] - Quote Captain Tardbar wrote: Simple answer. The player base is made up of a majority of sociopaths. And I suppose you think the people who play battlefield are pro mass shootings too
Chronos Thiesant Deep Sky Enterprises 12	Posted - 2016.08.12 11:36:23 - [1377] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: ... However, as far as the large blobs dominating everything - it is just the natural culmination of the blob-mentality that has dominated everything from the beginning. What is the #1 most given piece of advice given to anybody having a problem in EVE? Get friends. Join a group. Blob it. In that sense - perhaps we simply hit critical mass in 2013-ish when we had our peak number of players online - and enough people finally listened to this advice and joined the large blobbing groups to push them over the threshold of what was sustainable in EVE. If this is the case - then the initial player bleed would have been from the "victim" populations (aka: anybody who can't field the biggest blob) - with a follow-up loss of players more recently of the blobbers themselves realizing there is nothing left to do now that they are the sole dominant force in their segment of the galaxy. One can argue the specifics, and of course potential solutions to this... CCP is certainly starting to push anti-blob mechanics such as DPS limits on structures... But whether any of them will work is of course pure speculation. As is calling this "the biggest problem" in EVE - since again, it is just one of many... There is so much truth in this post that I wanted to quote, and maybe try expand on it a little. First I'm going to speak about something in the real world, so bear with me because it really is relevant. Eve is so much like the natural world, there are next to no rules other than the fittest survives. Everyone knows there are many different species of trees. In stable environments like the UK the best adapted tree will grow most and drown out all the others. There will be very little variety. However in unstable environments, like African scrubland where forest fires regularly destroy most life, there is a massive variety of life. This crosses over to human nature too. In stable economies you get massive chains like Starbucks opening all over the place, very little variety. In poor countries you get many small market stalls selling all sorts of different things, lots of variety again. Stable conditions lead to certain groups being able to adapt perfectly to those conditions, and to drown out the competition. In a way eve corps are the same. Nullsec originally had many small corps fighting it out, whereas now there are a handful of giants which control all of space (as with HS, LS, and WH). Now whether this is a problem or not is up to you, these corps are the fittest so surely they should survive? But this does not make for exciting gameplay. I think that eve needs it's own form of wildfire. For many players much of the fun of eve is in trying to adapt to the conditions, putting your wit against others to thrive. Perhaps CCP need to alter nullsec to include roaming drifters (reapers?) which would tear down any and all structures that they find. Obviously this should be rare, and somewhat predictable so players can save some of their belongings, but importantly it should somewhat reset the balance of power between the big guys and smaller guys. The most fun times in eve for most people is in building up your character, your corporation, your alliance. As it stands right now eve is far too static, which results in stagnation from player groups who already have everything they could want. Burn it down, and players will once again be able to fight to become the biggest fish in the pond.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 733	Posted - 2016.08.12 11:38:47 - [1378] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Pretty good overview of some reasons why less players are playing: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/4x4su0/life_in_low_class_wh_in_a_scrub_corp/?st=irqb57la&sh=f4fa8796 Then gets nailed by a PL poster of all things: Quote: It's cool that your corp has persevered in wh's. 95% of those that have to deal with it stop trying pretty quickly. I particularly like seeing the larger entities come here and complain about WH population and then blame it on CCP like it is their fault. It ain't ccps fault the larger entities basically run a racket and remove anyone not willing to play ball on their terms. Population isn't low because of CCP, it's low because of exactly what you've explained. The bigger entities have farmed nearly all their content out of existence, refuse to fight each other, and then demand CCP buff wh income and make it easier for them. It's a fuckin joke and hilarious that they choose to demand a "fix" from CCP to bring them more content that just HAPPEN to fill their pockets and make it easier for them as well. And there you go, hisec gankers are just part of the same issue. Yes, because years ago life in Eve was full of rainbows, unicorns and candy canes everywhere. But then, gankers came to Eve and ruined everything by shooting people who were just trying to have fun. Teckos misses the point yet again And projects his own fears on what I just pointed out, but let me reassure you, CCP will not remove ganking and war decs from the game, I for one would not want to see that happen, but they do need to improve the balance a bit and remove some quite stupid exploits, for example the fix on bumping has still not been applied..., consequences need to be consequences and the loot scooping one, is just so meh. I think you just missed the point. Quoting a post from reddit doesn't make it anything more than any opinion posted there, or any opinion posted here. It's no better or worse than anyone else's opinion and it certainly isn't backed by any evidence, so doesn't really mean much on its own.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2134	Posted - 2016.08.12 12:31:21 - [1379] - Quote Chronos Thiesant, good post almost got up up vote from me. One thing I would love to see is BS and dread rats in hisec, would create some fun, I wish CCP would do it. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2134	Posted - 2016.08.12 12:40:24 - [1380] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Captain Tardbar wrote: Simple answer. The player base is made up of a majority of sociopaths. And I suppose you think the people who play battlefield are pro mass shootings too Why would he think that? Though in my opinion a lot of the people who gank could be the type of players habitually using cheat mods that enable them to see and shoot through walls and rubbish like that. On another note I hope that some of them got caught by the Overwatch ban hammer which was absolutely beautiful to see, to see the poor souls buy the game again and still be banned was hilarious, I laughed so hard I almost wet myself when my son told me that... Great stuff!!! When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17838	Posted - 2016.08.12 12:51:52 - [1381] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Captain Tardbar wrote: Simple answer. The player base is made up of a majority of sociopaths. And I suppose you think the people who play battlefield are pro mass shootings too Why would he think that? Because they have already jumped to that conclusion with one game.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14416	Posted - 2016.08.12 12:58:27 - [1382] - Quote Captain Tardbar wrote: Simple answer. The player base is made up of a majority of sociopaths. It drives new players away. Player base gets smaller and smaller. Only bittervets remain. Most of them only sub 2 months out of a year as it is. Utter nonsense (although given the poster and his history, it's not surprising to see that kind of post). The "majority" of EVE players aren't anything but average gamers, most of whom can't even fly their ships well, most of whom prefer to shoot at npcs rather than people, and very many of whom don't even interact with other players. In other words, the average EVE player isn't that far off from the average MMO player. People who carry intense biases always think the group of people they don't like is larger than it is. Congrats, you just displayed your prejudices. I use the word prejudice intentionally, as this thread is really just an example of people blaming people they don't like (gankers, wardeccers, null sec alliance members, whatever) for something that they couldn't possibly be responsible for. In fact, the most probable truth is the opposite of what people in this thread thinks, ie if the game is in decline, it isn't because it's not friendly enough, it's because it's TOO friendly and accommodating of the wrong kinds of people like casuals and solo players. If the kinds of people I mentioned were somehow responsible for some kind of decline of the EVE population, how would any of you explain away the fact that the game GREW at a rate superior to most mmos when those 'bad people' had more freedom and fewer restrictions? When I started playing, War Decs were super cheap and easy, gankers got insurance payments for ganking, and scammers and thieves made international news. I'd hazard to suggest that the game was way more interesting then. I know it was for me, when playing EVE was a test of will rather than an exercise in making sure your safety is green before entering empire space....
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 498	Posted - 2016.08.12 13:01:20 - [1383] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Captain Tardbar wrote: Simple answer. The player base is made up of a majority of sociopaths. And I suppose you think the people who play battlefield are pro mass shootings too Why would he think that? Though in my opinion a lot of the people who gank could be the type of players habitually using cheat mods that enable them to see and shoot through walls and rubbish like that. On another note I hope that some of them got caught by the Overwatch ban hammer which was absolutely beautiful to see, to see the poor souls buy the game again and still be banned was hilarious, I laughed so hard I almost wet myself when my son told me that... Great stuff!!! Sociopathy, Psychopathy, and even cheating are pretty common....well...everywhere on the internet these days honestly... They are not limited to EVE, and they are certainly not limited to any single play-style within EVE... It is also ridiculous to assume such characteristics about someone based on their in-game activities in EVE, or in any other role-playing game. The entire point of such games is to let you have an online virtual existence separate from your ordinary life...And while I'm sure there are some people who play in game much the same as they live in real life - they are the exception rather than the rule. The only play-style of which is probably is fair to make an assumption would be the actual bot-users. We can probably safely assume some Psychopathic tendencies in their personalities that allow them to casually disregard rules/social norms. We can also probably safely assume that if they bother to cheat in EVE they cheat in other games that they play... However, if you identify someone as a botter - rather than lecuring them on how horrible they are as a person your time would likely be better spent simply reporting them to CCP so they can be removed from the game ASAP.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2134	Posted - 2016.08.12 13:05:20 - [1384] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Captain Tardbar wrote: Simple answer. The player base is made up of a majority of sociopaths. And I suppose you think the people who play battlefield are pro mass shootings too Why would he think that? Because they have already jumped to that conclusion with one game. No he didn't When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Giaus Felix Hedion University Amarr Empire 169	Posted - 2016.08.12 13:08:35 - [1385] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Captain Tardbar wrote: Simple answer. The player base is made up of a majority of sociopaths. And I suppose you think the people who play battlefield are pro mass shootings too Why would he think that? Because they have already jumped to that conclusion with one game. No he didn't Apart from the bit where he did? I am Ralph's junk DNA.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2134	Posted - 2016.08.12 13:10:10 - [1386] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Captain Tardbar wrote: Simple answer. The player base is made up of a majority of sociopaths. And I suppose you think the people who play battlefield are pro mass shootings too Why would he think that? Though in my opinion a lot of the people who gank could be the type of players habitually using cheat mods that enable them to see and shoot through walls and rubbish like that. On another note I hope that some of them got caught by the Overwatch ban hammer which was absolutely beautiful to see, to see the poor souls buy the game again and still be banned was hilarious, I laughed so hard I almost wet myself when my son told me that... Great stuff!!! Sociopathy, Psychopathy, and even cheating are pretty common....well...everywhere on the internet these days honestly... They are not limited to EVE, and they are certainly not limited to any single play-style within EVE... It is also ridiculous to assume such characteristics about someone based on their in-game activities in EVE, or in any other role-playing game. The entire point of such games is to let you have an online virtual existence separate from your ordinary life...And while I'm sure there are some people who play in game much the same as they live in real life - they are the exception rather than the rule. The only play-style of which it probably is fair to make an assumption would be the actual bot-users. We can probably safely assume some Psychopathic tendencies in their personalities that allow them to casually disregard rules/social norms. We can also probably safely assume that if they bother to cheat in EVE they cheat in other games that they play... However, if you identify someone as a botter - rather than lecturing them on how horrible they are as a person your time would likely be better spent simply reporting them to CCP so they can be removed from the game ASAP. Before you go off on your high horse, I played a game called the Hunting, a PBM game, a certain person who also played this game went on a shooting spree in Hungerford in the UK. This game involved killing people in imaginative ways, I played it for about 5 months. I had the dubious pleasure of being visited by Her Majesty's police because I also went pistol shooting as a hobby at the time. Seriously... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Blood Retributor Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 40	Posted - 2016.08.12 13:12:22 - [1387] - Quote Chronos Thiesant wrote: Eve is so much like the natural world Eve has nothing to do with real life. In real life you have real consequences. In the game you loose some amounts of virtual money, which you recover fast if you know/taught how to do it. If every suicide ganker would biomass (loose all his/her SPs) after a suicide gank I am certain this plague would not do so much damage to the gameplay. I know it is a stupid idea, just saying. In Eve, if you scam someone or rob a corporation you have little to no consequences. In real life you may end up in a hospital/prison for the rest of your life (or become fish food). Quote: there are next to no rules The problem is that there are rules, and if you have been long enough in the game you can use them to your advantage (griefing those who are just learning them) with practically no consequences. Quote: tthe fittest survives. If by fittest you mean accumulate some SPs, learn some game mechanics, find some like-minded as**s and go out there start griefing (gatecamping/insta-killing) everyone who is weaker than you, then yes you are right. Vets do not care as they know how to avoid these "killboard stars", when they (the vets) are not ready for the engagement. And when the vets are ready these "fittest" are nowhere to be seen. Quote:** As it stands right now eve is far too static, which results in stagnation from player groups who already have everything they could want. Burn it down, and players will once again be able to fight to become the biggest fish in the pond. Here I have to agree. Vets have no incentives to change something (most of them are plain bored). Everyone (who did not have a set up channel of passive income) is tired of grinding for isk for hours in exchange for several minutes of potential FUN combat. That's just my 2c.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17838	Posted - 2016.08.12 13:21:35 - [1388] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Captain Tardbar wrote: Simple answer. The player base is made up of a majority of sociopaths. And I suppose you think the people who play battlefield are pro mass shootings too Why would he think that? Because they have already jumped to that conclusion with one game. No he didn't so-+ci-+o-+path /-ês+ìs-ô+ì-îpaTH/ noun noun: sociopath; plural noun: sociopaths a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behaviour and a lack of conscience.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2135	Posted - 2016.08.12 13:23:49 - [1389] - Quote baltec1 wrote: so-+ci-+o-+path /-ês+ìs-ô+ì-îpaTH/ noun noun: sociopath; plural noun: sociopaths a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behaviour and a lack of conscience. Clap clap clap, you can quote from a dictionary, gold star to you and a pat on the head, means nothing though. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 498	Posted - 2016.08.12 13:31:51 - [1390] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Before you go off on your high horse, I played a game called the Hunting, a PBM game, a certain person who also played this game went on a shooting spree in Hungerford in the UK. This game involved killing people in imaginative ways, I played it for about 5 months. I had the dubious pleasure of being visited by Her Majesty's police because I also went pistol shooting as a hobby at the time. Seriously... I didn't say sociopaths and psychopaths don't play - I just said they are the exception rather than the rule, and you can't identify them by their play-style. You actually provided a good example of this - because you played the same game as the mentally unstable player who went on a shooting spree, but presumably you are not proclaiming yourself to be a psychopath/sociopath. In fact you were a victim of this sort of broad profiling based on how you played the game - as you were visited by the police based on them using it... I am not saying that none of the gankers/wardeccers/PvP players in EVE are sociopaths/psychopaths. I'm just saying that it is ridiculous to label them as such based on their gameplay. In my experience, non-combat players are just as likely to be psychopaths/sociopaths - if not more so as these play-styles tend to appeal to those who do not wish to socialize. For example: One of my lower-sp alts is in a small corp which fluctuates from 2-5 members and declares intermittent wars in a specific region of space for assorted random reasons....And this corp has become blue to most of the miners who live permanently in the area. These miners have the unique opportunity to enjoy their lack of being attacked by us, as well as our sporadic defense of them when they do get attacked - as well as drastically reduced CODE. presence because my corp has a tendency to have nothing better to do than insta-pop criminal catalysts/pods moving through our territory while waiting for legitimate targets. However, not a single one of these miners is content to just enjoy their situation - they all constantly bombard myself and my corp mates with requests to gank, grief, and generally torture any/all new miners who wander into the area. And if one acquiesces to their demands? They want us to keep going. They are more bloodthirsty/savage than I will ever be - they merely lack the skills/courage to train weapons and perform the acts themselves.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17839	Posted - 2016.08.12 13:39:30 - [1391] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Clap clap clap, you can quote from a dictionary, gold star to you and a pat on the head, means nothing though. He is calling me a sociopath because I pvp in a game that has a focus on pvp. That's exactly like calling someone who shoots people in battlefield a mass shooter supporter because they shoot lots of people in battlefield.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2135	Posted - 2016.08.12 13:53:47 - [1392] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Clap clap clap, you can quote from a dictionary, gold star to you and a pat on the head, means nothing though. He is calling me a sociopath because I pvp in a game that has a focus on pvp. That's exactly like calling someone who shoots people in battlefield a mass shooter supporter because they shoot lots of people in battlefield. Actually no, he is likely suggesting that people who have a fixation on tear gathering may have issues, which is something slightly different to just playing a game and having fun at blowing others up. Perhaps he thinks that those people who get more of a kick from other players reactions are developing worrying attitudes. But to simplistically say it is every player in Eve is not what he said. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Galaxy Mule New Order Logistics CODE. 1	Posted - 2016.08.12 13:54:20 - [1393] - Quote Confirming that gankers are psychotic cyber-bullies with no conscience or empathy, in game and in real life.
Narun Aeg University of Caille Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2016.08.12 13:54:37 - [1394] - Quote I think CCP choices didn't help at all ... They did bad choices these last years. Dust514 : A ps3 game where it's a fps in a pc world game => Don't know how they think about that. No real connection in the games they created. It would be awesome to put Dust514 in Eve online. We all said that when they released the game. Same for Valkyries, put real fighters pilotes in the carriers for Eve online would be really funny and smart. I know that it's more complicated that releasing separate games, but let's see how Dust514 finished. They better had to take 2 more years to include this in eve online than releasing this game in ps3 and closing it after 2-3 years . In other hands, some game mechanics or changes are strange. Like the " weapon accuracy " which was not needed at all (useless/regression). They could do something else with this feature time. We can find other things like the cloaking campers, nerf of BS and Carriers, Destro t3 OverPowered, etc.... Which make some players leaving because they can't play or are disgusted. On the forum, some problems are told since years, and they do the opposite of what the greatest majority wants. The changement didn't go in the good direction and took some random roads in walls So what I could say is to focus on a real game planning with some logical behind. To encourage CCP, I would say that citadels are a really good feature for exemple.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17840	Posted - 2016.08.12 13:56:03 - [1395] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Actually no, he is likely suggesting that people who have a fixation on tear gathering may have issues, which is something slightly different to just playing a game and having fun at blowing others up. Perhaps he thinks that those people who get more of a kick from other players reactions are developing worrying attitudes. But to simplistically say it is every player in Eve is not what he said. Captain Tardbar wrote: Simple answer. The player base is made up of a majority of sociopaths. Nope, he clearly says most of the playerbase are sociopaths.
Galaxy Mule New Order Logistics CODE. 1	Posted - 2016.08.12 14:03:18 - [1396] - Quote One could say that the players who seem to be fixated on producing tears have issues of their own.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2136	Posted - 2016.08.12 14:05:22 - [1397] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Actually no, he is likely suggesting that people who have a fixation on tear gathering may have issues, which is something slightly different to just playing a game and having fun at blowing others up. Perhaps he thinks that those people who get more of a kick from other players reactions are developing worrying attitudes. But to simplistically say it is every player in Eve is not what he said. Captain Tardbar wrote: Simple answer. The player base is made up of a majority of sociopaths. Nope, he clearly says most of the playerbase are sociopaths. Well perhaps he thinks that is what is largely left in Eve... EDIT: For example baltec1 you in that other thread said you went to the effort of producing a complaints form when you ganked miners and enjoyed their replies. I was always polite to people I blew up, and accepted their need to vent at me, especially those in bling fitted ratting ships. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Solecist Project 32029	Posted - 2016.08.12 14:13:36 - [1398] - Quote It's funny how no one seems to understand what a sociopath is ... ... and how bullies aren't necessarily sociopaths at all ... ... and how any self respecting sociopath would feel offended by this. Some gankers are bullies. Yes. They seek out tears, yes. That doesn't make them sociopaths. Many carebears out themselves as psychopaths, though. They, according to their insults, are incapable of dealing with someone who ***** into their flakes. Who shows them are are not in control or power. Who shows them tbat their imaginary achievements are worth nothing when only done against npcs. Who shows the, that they are not the center of the game's universe. A psychopath is someone who lacks bad conscience. He doesn't know it at all. Removed. The whole logic and thought process is thus different. He doesn't care about how you do and live when he interacts with you. He would kill you if he had a way to do it simply for blowing him up. I bet 99% here use the word sociopath without having any idea what it means or how they behave. And i bet an added 0.9% don't know the difference between a socio- and a psychopath. Get some life and a sense of reality. If the majority of gankers were actual sociopaths, highsec would be locked down permanently. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Beta Maoye 126	Posted - 2016.08.12 14:15:28 - [1399] - Quote Extract a database of all about the lost players for the past 3 years. Analyze their daily activities that they spent most time in the game. Form a list of activities from the most popular to the least popular. Compare these activities with similar features that provided by competitors. Honestly sort out the advantages or disadvantages of EVE against competitors for these activities. A general picture of why the game is losing players will be revealed.
Narun Aeg University of Caille Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2016.08.12 14:17:54 - [1400] - Quote Yes Beta. Because I saw that we have the same population than 8 years ago ... It's a bit dangerous.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17841	Posted - 2016.08.12 14:18:45 - [1401] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Actually no, he is likely suggesting that people who have a fixation on tear gathering may have issues, which is something slightly different to just playing a game and having fun at blowing others up. Perhaps he thinks that those people who get more of a kick from other players reactions are developing worrying attitudes. But to simplistically say it is every player in Eve is not what he said. Captain Tardbar wrote: Simple answer. The player base is made up of a majority of sociopaths. Nope, he clearly says most of the playerbase are sociopaths. Well perhaps he thinks that is what is largely left in Eve... EDIT: For example baltec1 you in that other thread said you went to the effort of producing a complaints form when you ganked miners and enjoyed their replies. I was always polite to people I blew up, and accepted their need to vent at me, especially those in bling fitted ratting ships. It was a deflection device to take the rage away from corp members and our CEO. As I said, we didn't keep the records although we probably should have for historical references.
Solecist Project 32029	Posted - 2016.08.12 14:23:09 - [1402] - Quote Beta Maoye wrote: Extract a database of all about the lost players for the past 3 years. Analyze their daily activities that they spent most time in the game. Form a list of activities from the most popular to the least popular. Compare these activities with similar features that provided by competitors. Honestly sort out the advantages or disadvantages of EVE against competitors for these activities. A general picture of why the game is losing players will be revealed. Invalid. This works only for games that are equal. EVE works on completely different base mechanics than the crap you seem to be playing ... ... which is tailored to the masses to enjoy. And we all know the masses. They're horrible. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17841	Posted - 2016.08.12 14:24:01 - [1403] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: If the majority of gankers were actual sociopaths, highsec would be locked down permanently. The most visible ganking requires gankers to be social so its a tad ironic too.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2137	Posted - 2016.08.12 14:25:41 - [1404] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: It's funny how no one seems to understand what a sociopath is ... ... and how bullies aren't necessarily sociopaths at all ... ... and how any self respecting sociopath would feel offended by this. Some gankers are bullies. Yes. They seek out tears, yes. That doesn't make them sociopaths. Many carebears out themselves as psychopaths, though. They, according to their insults, are incapable of dealing with someone who *** into their flakes. Who shows them are are not in control or power. Who shows them tbat their imaginary achievements are worth nothing when only done against npcs. Who shows the, that they are not the center of the game's universe. A psychopath is someone who lacks bad conscience. He doesn't know it at all. Removed. The whole logic and thought process is thus different. He doesn't care about how you do and live when he interacts with you. He would kill you if he had a way to do it simply for blowing him up. I bet 99% here use the word sociopath without having any idea what it means or how they behave. And i bet an added 0.9% don't know the difference between a socio- and a psychopath. Get some life and a sense of reality. If the majority of gankers were actual sociopaths, highsec would be locked down permanently. You might not have noticed that I have not called anyone a sociopath, I find the fixation on tears a bit weird, I also find when people dehumanise others also a bit interesting too and at the end of it all I can say is that a reaction in local after a kill might make me laugh if they go on a a real rant, but I certainly don't get off on it. Can you imagine how many Russians have told me that they **** my mother, they are upset in the heat of the moment, its nothing... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Narun Aeg University of Caille Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2016.08.12 14:33:29 - [1405] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: Beta Maoye wrote: Extract a database of all about the lost players for the past 3 years. Analyze their daily activities that they spent most time in the game. Form a list of activities from the most popular to the least popular. Compare these activities with similar features that provided by competitors. Honestly sort out the advantages or disadvantages of EVE against competitors for these activities. A general picture of why the game is losing players will be revealed. Invalid. This works only for games that are equal. EVE works on completely different base mechanics than the crap you seem to be playing ... ... which is tailored to the masses to enjoy. And we all know the masses. They're horrible. You didn't understand what he said ... He didn't say to compare other game. He said to contact the players we lost and making stats with what they said. Then to compare with features you can find in other games. Dust514, valkyries, even Eve online can be compared to a lot other game features. Eve online is unique in the global mechanic. Not features by features. Thinking that eve online is unique will not help anyway. We all know that.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2137	Posted - 2016.08.12 14:43:06 - [1406] - Quote baltec1 wrote: It was a deflection device to take the rage away from corp members and our CEO. As I said, we didn't keep the records although we probably should have for historical references. I saw quite a few of these forms and they were all setup to wind up the person after the event, I found reading one or two a bit amusing, but I came across people who would religiously send one to every gank victim which seemed a bit obsessive to me. It is like minerbumping.com, some of the stories I found amusing because I had people blow up at me, but after a short while reading some of the stories it seemed like the people at that site were trying too hard. But that is just my opinion. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Beta Maoye 127	Posted - 2016.08.12 14:45:15 - [1407] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: Beta Maoye wrote: Extract a database of all about the lost players for the past 3 years. Analyze their daily activities that they spent most time in the game. Form a list of activities from the most popular to the least popular. Compare these activities with similar features that provided by competitors. Honestly sort out the advantages or disadvantages of EVE against competitors for these activities. A general picture of why the game is losing players will be revealed. Invalid. This works only for games that are equal. EVE works on completely different base mechanics than the crap you seem to be playing ... ... which is tailored to the masses to enjoy. And we all know the masses. They're horrible. EVE is a game and a business. It requires enough mass to support whatever the ideology that elite players wanted the game to have. If the game cannot survive, the EVE universe does not exist. The game has to find a balance of play styles for the mass and the elites. Partiality for either side is not good for the survival of the game.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17841	Posted - 2016.08.12 14:51:51 - [1408] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: It was a deflection device to take the rage away from corp members and our CEO. As I said, we didn't keep the records although we probably should have for historical references. I saw quite a few of these forms and they were all setup to wind up the person after the event, I found reading one or two a bit amusing, but I came across people who would religiously send one to every gank victim which seemed a bit obsessive to me. It is like minerbumping.com, some of the stories I found amusing because I had people blow up at me, but after a short while reading some of the stories it seemed like the people at that site were trying too hard. But that is just my opinion. Doesn't work if you don't hand it out to everyone. They get the form which says blah blah this is an anti-bot operation if you are not a bot please fill out this form yadda yadda. They fill it out, go through the automated process that takes a day or two and by the time they realise its a fake its been a few days and the anger is gone 99% of the time. No death threats for us and they get the vent at something. Win win.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2137	Posted - 2016.08.12 15:05:28 - [1409] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: It was a deflection device to take the rage away from corp members and our CEO. As I said, we didn't keep the records although we probably should have for historical references. I saw quite a few of these forms and they were all setup to wind up the person after the event, I found reading one or two a bit amusing, but I came across people who would religiously send one to every gank victim which seemed a bit obsessive to me. It is like minerbumping.com, some of the stories I found amusing because I had people blow up at me, but after a short while reading some of the stories it seemed like the people at that site were trying too hard. But that is just my opinion. Doesn't work if you don't hand it out to everyone. They get the form which says blah blah this is an anti-bot operation if you are not a bot please fill out this form yadda yadda. They fill it out, go through the automated process that takes a day or two and by the time they realise its a fake its been a few days and the anger is gone 99% of the time. No death threats for us and they get the vent at something. Win win. Well I would just laugh, but that is me, for example a friend got ganked by Aaaaargh and got a form, so he started to say he even sent me this, so he sent it to me, so I started to look at and had a laugh, then told him that he was a plonker for AP'ing a pod and he agreed and then he went off and popped Aaaargh twice.... Was funny. But saying it was an anti-bot operation was an additional windup wasn't it, especially as most player miners really hate bots... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17841	Posted - 2016.08.12 15:09:51 - [1410] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: especially as most player miners really hate bots... That's why we said it.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2137	Posted - 2016.08.12 15:14:59 - [1411] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: especially as most player miners really hate bots... That's why we said it. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 499	Posted - 2016.08.12 15:17:12 - [1412] - Quote Rather than "Sociopath" or "Psychopath" I think the correct term for all of these people, sadly enough, is: Human Regular, ordinary, Humans. I mean (just as 1 example of many) there is a reason that executions (particularly the really gruesome ones) used to be held as big, celebratory, public events. And why large segments of the assembled mobs would join in throwing rocks/etc at the victim if allowed to do so. Sadly enough, that is just Human Nature. That is why we have complex societal rules/expectations/laws, as well as assorted layers of people/mechanisms to enforce them. Take all of that away, and Humans will be Humans. In a sandbox video game, for example... "Psychopath" and "Sociopath" are (different and distinct) mental conditions which prevent the person from fitting into society and following the societal rules/expectations/laws, because they are incapable of understanding them or seeing how/why they should apply to themselves. As with most conditions, there are varying degrees of Psychopathy and Sociopathy - and many (most?) people who have these conditions still manage to get by or even succeed in their societies. However they can be dangerous/frightening because if they decide to harm others for some reason or do something else society frowns upon, they feel reduced (or none at all again depending on degree of the condition) societal pressure to not do it. Back into the context of EVE again now: There is no fixed "society" in the game to impose rules/expectations on people - so they are perfectly capable of letting their Human Nature take over without any societal rules/expectations/laws to stop them, or even slow them down. And as players tend to form groups and make their own societies within the game...the society they choose to join inside the game may in fact set rules/expectations that encourage harming other players, or even harvesting their tears. Ironically the healthier and less psychopathic/sociopathic they are the more likely they are to feel and respond to these subtle societal pressures, and thus the more likely they are to fastidiously farm tears and cause grief whenever possible. A Psychopath wouldn't get the point and wouldn't care what his chosen society thought, and a Sociopath wouldn't have joined the society in the first place... As soon as these players leave the video game world, however, their Real Life Societal rules/expectations/laws kick in again, and they go back to being ordinary citizens of wherever they happen to live.
Narun Aeg University of Caille Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2016.08.12 15:19:33 - [1413] - Quote Hmmm dudes, who care about the "Sociopath" or "Psychopath" subject ? You are not really going to find solutions this way.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 499	Posted - 2016.08.12 15:24:45 - [1414] - Quote Narun Aeg wrote: Hmmm dudes, who care about the "Sociopath" or "Psychopath" subject ? You are not really going to find solutions this way. If you honestly think we are going to find the solutions to EVE's problems in this thread, at this point...then I have another Psychological word for you: "Delusional"
Narun Aeg University of Caille Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2016.08.12 15:28:41 - [1415] - Quote Yes, and you are a doctor in psychology I guess ? Or Not. So instead of judging humanity, you should do something else, because your speech is pointless. If you are trying to play to doctor in a forum game, well ... You know who is mad.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 499	Posted - 2016.08.12 15:37:27 - [1416] - Quote Narun Aeg wrote: Yes, and you are a doctor in psychology I guess ? Or Not. So instead of judging humanity, you should do something else, because your speech is pointless. If you are trying to play to doctor in a forum game, well ... You know who is mad. A lack of understanding of why someone would wish to post a comment directly related to the current discussion, and instead stubbornly insisting that the only allowable topic of discussion should be the one that you want to discuss, could ironically be an indicator that you yourself have some "Psychopathic" tendencies... Either that or you cling so tightly to the societal expectation of keeping discussion limited to the original topic that you are angrily trying to enforce it...70 pages too late... Honestly I don't care to get to know you well enough to find out which one it is.
Narun Aeg University of Caille Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2016.08.12 15:41:42 - [1417] - Quote Yes with your reply I'm sure that everyone knows you are mad now :D. Well I will not feed the troll more than that anyway. Speak about spychology if you want, we read you carefully.
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 96	Posted - 2016.08.12 15:43:14 - [1418] - Quote Beta Maoye wrote: Solecist Project wrote: Beta Maoye wrote: Extract a database of all about the lost players for the past 3 years. Analyze their daily activities that they spent most time in the game. Form a list of activities from the most popular to the least popular. Compare these activities with similar features that provided by competitors. Honestly sort out the advantages or disadvantages of EVE against competitors for these activities. A general picture of why the game is losing players will be revealed. Invalid. This works only for games that are equal. EVE works on completely different base mechanics than the crap you seem to be playing ... ... which is tailored to the masses to enjoy. And we all know the masses. They're horrible. EVE is a game and a business. It requires enough mass to support whatever the ideology that elite players wanted the game to have. If the game cannot survive, the EVE universe does not exist. The game has to find a balance of play styles for the mass and the elites. Partiality for either side is not good for the survival of the game. This sounds like a good point...
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 499	Posted - 2016.08.12 15:49:42 - [1419] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Beta Maoye wrote: Solecist Project wrote: Beta Maoye wrote: Extract a database of all about the lost players for the past 3 years. Analyze their daily activities that they spent most time in the game. Form a list of activities from the most popular to the least popular. Compare these activities with similar features that provided by competitors. Honestly sort out the advantages or disadvantages of EVE against competitors for these activities. A general picture of why the game is losing players will be revealed. Invalid. This works only for games that are equal. EVE works on completely different base mechanics than the crap you seem to be playing ... ... which is tailored to the masses to enjoy. And we all know the masses. They're horrible. EVE is a game and a business. It requires enough mass to support whatever the ideology that elite players wanted the game to have. If the game cannot survive, the EVE universe does not exist. The game has to find a balance of play styles for the mass and the elites. Partiality for either side is not good for the survival of the game. This sounds like a good point... I don't think anyone will argue with it - EVE certainly needs to find a balance to keep enough players of all play-styles in the game so that it earns enough money to keep the servers running. People will argue with you until the end of time however on what that balance looks like, or how to attain it...
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14421	Posted - 2016.08.12 16:10:00 - [1420] - Quote Beta Maoye wrote: EVE is a game and a business. It requires enough mass to support whatever the ideology that elite players wanted the game to have. If the game cannot survive, the EVE universe does not exist. The game has to find a balance of play styles for the mass and the elites. Partiality for either side is not good for the survival of the game. No it doesn't need to 'find a balance'. That's the mistaken thinking many a game maker and other business person has made. Trying to achieve some kind of balance everyone finds enjoyable is as impossible an idea as establishing a feminist strip club is. Products need focus, and they also need principles to adhere to. If a Vegan restaurant starts seeing a decline in customers, the solution is not to start selling Steak...it's "make better tofu burgers".
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7896	Posted - 2016.08.12 16:43:18 - [1421] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: so-+ci-+o-+path /-ês+ìs-ô+ì-îpaTH/ noun noun: sociopath; plural noun: sociopaths a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behaviour and a lack of conscience. Clap clap clap, you can quote from a dictionary, gold star to you and a pat on the head, means nothing though. Everything they claim everybody else is and everything they claim to be against, they are. That's why they need a victim to blow up in local or scream on some voice comms, so they can bandy the file about as a trophy. The new things is that non ganker/HTFU are the "special snowflakes". All while they have for years been acting like special snowflakes. The gank/HTFU crowd always project. Always. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Beta Maoye 129	Posted - 2016.08.12 16:44:16 - [1422] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Beta Maoye wrote: EVE is a game and a business. It requires enough mass to support whatever the ideology that elite players wanted the game to have. If the game cannot survive, the EVE universe does not exist. The game has to find a balance of play styles for the mass and the elites. Partiality for either side is not good for the survival of the game. No it doesn't need to 'find a balance'. That's the mistaken thinking many a game maker and other business person has made. Trying to achieve some kind of balance everyone finds enjoyable is as impossible an idea as establishing a feminist strip club is. Products need focus, and they also need principles to adhere to. If a Vegan restaurant starts seeing a decline in customers, the solution is not to start selling Steak...it's "make better tofu burgers". Whether it is Steak or Tofu burgers, they can be made attractive to the mass if the chef do it right. I found the Tofu burgers from LOL, WOWS, WOT delicious.
Doc Fury Furious Enterprises 8564	Posted - 2016.08.12 17:00:32 - [1423] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Beta Maoye wrote: EVE is a game and a business. It requires enough mass to support whatever the ideology that elite players wanted the game to have. If the game cannot survive, the EVE universe does not exist. The game has to find a balance of play styles for the mass and the elites. Partiality for either side is not good for the survival of the game. No it doesn't need to 'find a balance'. That's the mistaken thinking many a game maker and other business person has made. Trying to achieve some kind of balance everyone finds enjoyable is as impossible an idea as establishing a feminist strip club is. Products need focus, and they also need principles to adhere to. If a Vegan restaurant starts seeing a decline in customers, the solution is not to start selling Steak...it's "make better tofu burgers". 'Feminist Strip Club' is the name of Doc's Plasmatics tribute band. Gÿ+ The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper: 'Hodor'.
Solecist Project 32032	Posted - 2016.08.12 18:25:52 - [1424] - Quote Narun Aeg wrote: You didn't understand what he said ... He didn't say to compare other game. He said to contact the players we lost and making stats with what they said. Then to compare with features you can find in other games. Dust514, valkyries, even Eve online can be compared to a lot other game features. Eve online is unique in the global mechanic. Not features by features. Thinking that eve online is unique will not help anyway. We all know that. To be honnest, I know a lot of eve online players who will play to an other sandbox, which start by " A " in 2 words, in final beta, for exemple. Because it's an other kind of sandbox, close to eve online in the idea. And if you look from far, you will say that it's really not a competitor. In fact, it is. Thank you for your post. I know what he said, though. You can't just compare the features like that. Any wow-like feature in EVE would still suffer from the core mechanics. These games do not offer the level of interaction ours offers. What he is talking about is making the game more attractive for all the masses that will not keep it alive ... ... because what this game needs and has always thrived on isn't money, it's no-holes-barred interaction. You don't have that in these silly easymode games with pretty graphics which, no matter what, you can win easily. The last thing this game needs is even more restrictions on interactivity. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Lulu Lunette Savage Moon Society 421	Posted - 2016.08.12 18:42:11 - [1425] - Quote I don't even know. @lunettelulu7
Kaivarian Coste Beyond Imports and Exports 81	Posted - 2016.08.13 12:48:48 - [1426] - Quote So I've taken a month off Eve and don't see myself going back to this game anytime soon. My primary reason is that there are so many good games on Steam/GOG these days. And the good thing about these games is that you can mod or customise them to your taste. With an MMO, you have no choice. You either have to like what the devs give, or quit. And playing an MMO feels like a job. If you're not playing, then you're falling behind everyone else, so what's the point? Meh. I can't blame CCP. It's just the nature of MMOs.
Beta Maoye 129	Posted - 2016.08.13 13:13:22 - [1427] - Quote Kaivarian Coste wrote: So I've taken a month off Eve and don't see myself going back to this game anytime soon. My primary reason is that there are so many good games on Steam/GOG these days. And the good thing about these games is that you can mod or customise them to your taste. With an MMO, you have no choice. You either have to like what the devs give, or quit. And playing an MMO feels like a job. If you're not playing, then you're falling behind everyone else, so what's the point? Meh. I can't blame CCP. It's just the nature of MMOs. It will be super cool if EVE allows player to design and trade their own skins. The marvelous advertisements in station TV proved the amazing creativity of EVE players.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26596	Posted - 2016.08.13 15:16:15 - [1428] - Quote Beta Maoye wrote: Kaivarian Coste wrote: So I've taken a month off Eve and don't see myself going back to this game anytime soon. My primary reason is that there are so many good games on Steam/GOG these days. And the good thing about these games is that you can mod or customise them to your taste. With an MMO, you have no choice. You either have to like what the devs give, or quit. And playing an MMO feels like a job. If you're not playing, then you're falling behind everyone else, so what's the point? Meh. I can't blame CCP. It's just the nature of MMOs. It will be super cool if EVE allows player to design and trade their own skins. The marvelous advertisements in station TV proved the amazing creativity of EVE players. It's something that has been looked at, CCP showcased a basic ship skinning interface in a fanfest presentation. I think the major problem with it is the TTP factor (Time To Phallus) Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Narun Aeg University of Caille Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2016.08.13 15:23:50 - [1429] - Quote I really don't like the custom games because It's like you said, everyone will do want he wants, and no one wants the same thing. I never liked mine craft and games like that so ...
Manaconda Jones Government DARKNESS. 1	Posted - 2016.08.13 16:53:22 - [1430] - Quote One of the things which always drew me to this game and has kept me coming back over the past several years is that each person determines their own fate and that in game behaviors rule the universe. Build a corporation, organize it get some reputation, move up in the world. Move up too much, get smacked back down. It's a fun balance and it leads to a complex social and political game where there is give and take on just about every action in the game. This has all ended over the past year and frankly it's making the game terrible. Traditional enemies, traditional friends, personal relationships and back room dealing has given away to massive payments from shady internet betting companies being the most powerful force in the game. I think that the bravest thing that CCP has done in the past 10 years was to ban the cancer that was Somer Blink from the game and freeze out all of their assets. I think the stupidest thing that CCP has done ever was the World of Darkness MMO, but second to that, the stupidest thing they have done is their tacit promotion of online gambling and enabling those outside forces to markedly change the game. It's impossible to balance a game when one group of people through means outside the game literally dump trillions of isk against random people for no reason. It's one thing to fund wars against the Goons in the north, but it's completely different to break up small alliances with payments of 500B isk There isn't any real way for a group in the game using in game methods to stand up to someone spending 7 trillion isk to fight them in a 6 month period. How does CCP not realize that this is wrecking their game? We're getting an absolutely terrible reputation amongst the different MMO's for being too 'pay to win' now. CCP, follow the lead of Steam and get rid of the BS gambling sites that are wrecking the game. Thanks
Solecist Project 32063	Posted - 2016.08.13 17:27:29 - [1431] - Quote Manaconda Jones wrote: One of the things which always drew me to this game and has kept me coming back over the past several years is that each person determines their own fate and that in game behaviors rule the universe. Build a corporation, organize it get some reputation, move up in the world. Move up too much, get smacked back down. It's a fun balance and it leads to a complex social and political game where there is give and take on just about every action in the game. This has all ended over the past year and frankly it's making the game terrible. Traditional enemies, traditional friends, personal relationships and back room dealing has given away to massive payments from shady internet betting companies being the most powerful force in the game. I think that the bravest thing that CCP has done in the past 10 years was to ban the cancer that was Somer Blink from the game and freeze out all of their assets. I think the stupidest thing that CCP has done ever was the World of Darkness MMO, but second to that, the stupidest thing they have done is their tacit promotion of online gambling and enabling those outside forces to markedly change the game. It's impossible to balance a game when one group of people through means outside the game literally dump trillions of isk against random people for no reason. It's one thing to fund wars against the Goons in the north, but it's completely different to break up small alliances with payments of 500B isk There isn't any real way for a group in the game using in game methods to stand up to someone spending 7 trillion isk to fight them in a 6 month period. How does CCP not realize that this is wrecking their game? We're getting an absolutely terrible reputation amongst the different MMO's for being too 'pay to win' now. CCP, follow the lead of Steam and get rid of the BS gambling sites that are wrecking the game. Thanks You're weird. You make a lot of assumptions and somehow declare that IWI used out of game means, which is not the case. Sure, the website is outside of the eve universe, but everything that makes it run is connected to eve. And besides... there's entities out there who have way more than that. Should they too don't use their money for legitimate gameplay? You are blaming the market for offering the demanding a platform. Fact is: if there weren't players who want this, such a plattform would never grow. Removing the plattform only hides the problem. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2150	Posted - 2016.08.13 17:30:18 - [1432] - Quote Manaconda Jones wrote: One of the things which always drew me to this game and has kept me coming back over the past several years is that each person determines their own fate and that in game behaviors rule the universe. Build a corporation, organize it get some reputation, move up in the world. Move up too much, get smacked back down. It's a fun balance and it leads to a complex social and political game where there is give and take on just about every action in the game. This has all ended over the past year and frankly it's making the game terrible. Traditional enemies, traditional friends, personal relationships and back room dealing has given away to massive payments from shady internet betting companies being the most powerful force in the game. I think that the bravest thing that CCP has done in the past 10 years was to ban the cancer that was Somer Blink from the game and freeze out all of their assets. I think the stupidest thing that CCP has done ever was the World of Darkness MMO, but second to that, the stupidest thing they have done is their tacit promotion of online gambling and enabling those outside forces to markedly change the game. It's impossible to balance a game when one group of people through means outside the game literally dump trillions of isk against random people for no reason. It's one thing to fund wars against the Goons in the north, but it's completely different to break up small alliances with payments of 500B isk There isn't any real way for a group in the game using in game methods to stand up to someone spending 7 trillion isk to fight them in a 6 month period. How does CCP not realize that this is wrecking their game? We're getting an absolutely terrible reputation amongst the different MMO's for being too 'pay to win' now. CCP, follow the lead of Steam and get rid of the BS gambling sites that are wrecking the game. Thanks Well think of the impact of the moon goo imbalance on top of the Dominion system, CCP really does have issues in terms of getting game balance right... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17852	Posted - 2016.08.13 17:49:37 - [1433] - Quote Manaconda Jones wrote: One of the things which always drew me to this game and has kept me coming back over the past several years is that each person determines their own fate and that in game behaviors rule the universe. Build a corporation, organize it get some reputation, move up in the world. Move up too much, get smacked back down. It's a fun balance and it leads to a complex social and political game where there is give and take on just about every action in the game. This has all ended over the past year and frankly it's making the game terrible. Traditional enemies, traditional friends, personal relationships and back room dealing has given away to massive payments from shady internet betting companies being the most powerful force in the game. I think that the bravest thing that CCP has done in the past 10 years was to ban the cancer that was Somer Blink from the game and freeze out all of their assets. I think the stupidest thing that CCP has done ever was the World of Darkness MMO, but second to that, the stupidest thing they have done is their tacit promotion of online gambling and enabling those outside forces to markedly change the game. It's impossible to balance a game when one group of people through means outside the game literally dump trillions of isk against random people for no reason. It's one thing to fund wars against the Goons in the north, but it's completely different to break up small alliances with payments of 500B isk There isn't any real way for a group in the game using in game methods to stand up to someone spending 7 trillion isk to fight them in a 6 month period. How does CCP not realize that this is wrecking their game? We're getting an absolutely terrible reputation amongst the different MMO's for being too 'pay to win' now. CCP, follow the lead of Steam and get rid of the BS gambling sites that are wrecking the game. Thanks Goons used to have a larger warchest, before that it was WN and before them it was BoB.
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 610	Posted - 2016.08.13 21:05:47 - [1434] - Quote Manaconda Jones wrote: One of the things which always drew me to this game and has kept me coming back over the past several years is that each person determines their own fate and that in game behaviors rule the universe. Build a corporation, organize it get some reputation, move up in the world. Move up too much, get smacked back down. It's a fun balance and it leads to a complex social and political game where there is give and take on just about every action in the game. This has all ended over the past year and frankly it's making the game terrible. Traditional enemies, traditional friends, personal relationships and back room dealing has given away to massive payments from shady internet betting companies being the most powerful force in the game. So, you're all for emergent behaviour and social interaction, but you despise both the emerging of civilization and mafia?
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5773	Posted - 2016.08.13 21:40:55 - [1435] - Quote Blood Retributor wrote: Chronos Thiesant wrote: [quote]As it stands right now eve is far too static, which results in stagnation from player groups who already have everything they could want. Burn it down, and players will once again be able to fight to become the biggest fish in the pond. Here I have to agree. Vets have no incentives to change something (most of them are plain bored). Everyone (who did not have a set up channel of passive income) is tired of grinding for isk for hours in exchange for several minutes of potential FUN combat. That's just my 2c. Yeah, the first portion of your sentence (bored) is why I play so little, the second (minutes of potential FUN combat) is why I play so little and why I gave up on small scale roaming, the only thing that interested me. It's far too much work avoiding getting blobbed, taking hours to find a similar small fleet (and not just 1 loner / gatecamper) which will actually decide to shoot back. EvE Online portal \| EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5773	Posted - 2016.08.13 22:02:22 - [1436] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: Beta Maoye wrote: Extract a database of all about the lost players for the past 3 years. Analyze their daily activities that they spent most time in the game. Form a list of activities from the most popular to the least popular. Compare these activities with similar features that provided by competitors. Honestly sort out the advantages or disadvantages of EVE against competitors for these activities. A general picture of why the game is losing players will be revealed. Invalid. This works only for games that are equal. EVE works on completely different base mechanics than the crap you seem to be playing ... ... which is tailored to the masses to enjoy. And we all know the masses. They're horrible. That's why pre-MMO era online games were better imo. I have played and forgotten perhaps 20 MMOs I have played, I still recall every MUD (!!!) and in general late 90' - early 2k online game I played. These were 100-500 people communities, they had a massively insane rate of players retention because you'd form very strong bonds. Even today, I still have fun and I * shoot videos * when I play an early 2k "MMO" and meet Felicia, who effectively meet and play with me since 14 years. 14 years online friendship, many marriages last less than that. EvE came right after that early wave and EvE in fact formed an incredibly solid "ancient players" core. EvE still had the goodness of those "pre MMO" era games (and in fact, it did not launch with 500k subs at day zero like other games did). EvE started declining in the soul before in the subs, when those ancient players started quitting (turnover, jobs, whatever) and got replaced by a more "current" playerbase, including the elite of such playerbase. They are elite but not the old "we'll form a 12+ years long bond" kind of elite, but "just" good players. I know this is an extremely hard to describe, subtle - very subtle change that happened without anyone noticing at first. But it happened. I have known some corp mates in EvE who were beta players... they were just different. I have know many excellent, even awesome newer players who now rank high in alliances but... it's not the same thing. There's something inside that got lost, the feeling you cannot forget when you first defeated your foe in an old game where actions mattered. Also, not really too distant from the above: In modern EvE, you go -10, you biomass. And forget it's forbidden, nobody is going to catch you. In modern EvE, there's always "alliance reimbursment" so your screwups don't matter. In modern EvE, you put a bounty and.... who cares. In modern EvE, return to success is always a couple of PLEXes away. In a game having its very foundations built on consequences, this change in direction has undone the very reason to play EvE: a competitive game where victory or return back to competitivity is always as distant and your credit card is. EvE Online portal \| EvE markets tutorials
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7906	Posted - 2016.08.13 22:11:59 - [1437] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Solecist Project wrote: Beta Maoye wrote: Extract a database of all about the lost players for the past 3 years. Analyze their daily activities that they spent most time in the game. Form a list of activities from the most popular to the least popular. Compare these activities with similar features that provided by competitors. Honestly sort out the advantages or disadvantages of EVE against competitors for these activities. A general picture of why the game is losing players will be revealed. Invalid. This works only for games that are equal. EVE works on completely different base mechanics than the crap you seem to be playing ... ... which is tailored to the masses to enjoy. And we all know the masses. They're horrible. That's why pre-MMO era online games were better imo. I have played and forgotten perhaps 20 MMOs I have played, I still recall every MUD (!!!) and in general late 90' - early 2k online game I played. These were 100-500 people communities, they had a massively insane rate of players retention because you'd form very strong bonds. Even today, I still have fun and I * shoot videos * when I play an early 2k "MMO" and meet Felicia, who effectively meet and play with me since 14 years. 14 years online friendship, many marriages last less than that. EvE came right after that early wave and EvE in fact formed an incredibly solid "ancient players" core. EvE still had the goodness of those "pre MMO" era games (and in fact, it did not launch with 500k subs at day zero like other games did). EvE started declining in the soul before in the subs, when those ancient players started quitting (turnover, jobs, whatever) and got replaced by a more "current" playerbase, including the elite of such playerbase. They are elite but not the old "we'll form a 12+ years long bond" kind of elite, but "just" good players. I know this is an extremely hard to describe, subtle - very subtle change that happened without anyone noticing at first. But it happened. I have known some corp mates in EvE who were beta players... they were just different. I have know many excellent, even awesome newer players who now rank high in alliances but... it's not the same thing. There's something inside that got lost, the feeling you cannot forget when you first defeated your foe in an old game where actions mattered. Also, not really too distant from the above: In modern EvE, you go -10, you biomass. And forget it's forbidden, nobody is going to catch you. In modern EvE, there's always "alliance reimbursment" so your screwups don't matter. In modern EvE, you put a bounty and.... who cares. In modern EvE, return to success is always a couple of PLEXes away. In a game having its very foundations built on consequences, this change in direction has undone the very reason to play EvE: a competitive game where victory or return back to competitivity is always as distant and your credit card is. I love your post so much I want to give it a name and form a bond with it and take it out to dinner and.... whoa wait OK OK just kidding, but I really like that post. I have been talking about "toxicity" in the community and we have another argument in another GD about "apathy". But I think we are both catching a sense of the same issue from different angles. We would probably disagree on when the train started coming off the rails but at first to make that argument I would have to sit and think about it and reflect on the past. Something is definitely missing as you say, and I have argued toxicity, but perhaps what I'm seeing is what's filling the void left behind by what you say is missing. Can't quite put my finger on it yet. Thank you for that post. P.S: most of the people I had any bond with are gone from the game and the rest are leaving. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 739	Posted - 2016.08.13 22:31:27 - [1438] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: In a game having its very foundations built on consequences, this change in direction has undone the very reason to play EvE: a competitive game where victory or return back to competitivity is always as close and your credit card is. You carebears are ridiculous. You all come here complaining how pvp drives people away, reducing CCP's revenue, but as soon as CCP introduce ways to increase revenue, you complain again. No wonder CCP ignore it all.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 507	Posted - 2016.08.13 22:54:10 - [1439] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: In a game having its very foundations built on consequences, this change in direction has undone the very reason to play EvE: a competitive game where victory or return back to competitivity is always as close and your credit card is. You carebears are ridiculous. You all come here complaining how pvp drives people away, reducing CCP's revenue, but as soon as CCP introduce ways to increase revenue, you complain again. No wonder CCP ignore it all. Carebears are not the only ones who are unhappy with CCP's decision to go straight-up Pay-To-Win...
Shallanna Yassavi Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 318	Posted - 2016.08.13 23:04:22 - [1440] - Quote Manaconda Jones wrote: One of the things which always drew me to this game and has kept me coming back over the past several years is that each person determines their own fate and that in game behaviors rule the universe. Build a corporation, organize it get some reputation, move up in the world. Move up too much, get smacked back down. It's a fun balance and it leads to a complex social and political game where there is give and take on just about every action in the game. This has all ended over the past year and frankly it's making the game terrible. Traditional enemies, traditional friends, personal relationships and back room dealing has given away to massive payments from shady internet betting companies being the most powerful force in the game. I think that the bravest thing that CCP has done in the past 10 years was to ban the cancer that was Somer Blink from the game and freeze out all of their assets. I think the stupidest thing that CCP has done ever was the World of Darkness MMO, but second to that, the stupidest thing they have done is their tacit promotion of online gambling and enabling those outside forces to markedly change the game. It's impossible to balance a game when one group of people through means outside the game literally dump trillions of isk against random people for no reason. It's one thing to fund wars against the Goons in the north, but it's completely different to break up small alliances with payments of 500B isk There isn't any real way for a group in the game using in game methods to stand up to someone spending 7 trillion isk to fight them in a 6 month period. How does CCP not realize that this is wrecking their game? We're getting an absolutely terrible reputation amongst the different MMO's for being too 'pay to win' now. CCP, follow the lead of Steam and get rid of the BS gambling sites that are wrecking the game. Thanks IWI has been too successful? To me, this says: "IWI needs competition!" A signature :o
Solecist Project 32098	Posted - 2016.08.13 23:10:06 - [1441] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: In a game having its very foundations built on consequences, this change in direction has undone the very reason to play EvE: a competitive game where victory or return back to competitivity is always as close and your credit card is. You carebears are ridiculous. You all come here complaining how pvp drives people away, reducing CCP's revenue, but as soon as CCP introduce ways to increase revenue, you complain again. No wonder CCP ignore it all. I really wonder what you read there, because I read something completely different. I've read a post from a person missing an era. the era of adventure, discovery and self responsibility. What VV is talking about is a "generational gap" that happens seemingly fast in EVE ... ... which is actively used by CONCORD by catering to this new player generation and thus having their support. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 739	Posted - 2016.08.13 23:22:22 - [1442] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: I have been talking about "toxicity" in the community and we have another argument in another GD about "apathy". But I think we are both catching a sense of the same issue from different angles. We would probably disagree on when the train started coming off the rails but at first to make that argument I would have to sit and think about it and reflect on the past. Something is definitely missing as you say, and I have argued toxicity, but perhaps what I'm seeing is what's filling the void left behind by what you say is missing. Can't quite put my finger on it yet. Thank you for that post. P.S: most of the people I had any bond with are gone from the game and the rest are leaving. If you honestly answer the question of 'What do you mean by toxicity?", at some point it summarises to 'certain people who think differently to the way I do'. There may be many other descriptions, but few people willingly consider themselves 'part of the problem'. It's always someone else. Not just in Eve. In most things we all generally do in life. Rarely do any of us reflect on whether we are actually the ones at issue. It's far easier and more convenient to consider other people to be at fault, or to be the issue, the problem, the toxics. However, in the Eve context, if the community is toxic (ie. not like you), then who is the odd one out? If everyone else thinks a different way, then isn't there the possibility that your own thinking is in the minority and really there's nothing wrong with the broader community just because they think differently. Thinking differently doesn't make someone toxic (which is only ever used in a negative context), especially in the context of a video game.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7908	Posted - 2016.08.13 23:42:48 - [1443] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: I have been talking about "toxicity" in the community and we have another argument in another GD about "apathy". But I think we are both catching a sense of the same issue from different angles. We would probably disagree on when the train started coming off the rails but at first to make that argument I would have to sit and think about it and reflect on the past. Something is definitely missing as you say, and I have argued toxicity, but perhaps what I'm seeing is what's filling the void left behind by what you say is missing. Can't quite put my finger on it yet. Thank you for that post. P.S: most of the people I had any bond with are gone from the game and the rest are leaving. If you honestly answer the question of 'What do you mean by toxicity?", at some point it summarises to 'certain people who think differently to the way I do'. There may be many other descriptions, but few people willingly consider themselves 'part of the problem'. It's always someone else. Not just in Eve. In most things we all generally do in life. Rarely do any of us reflect on whether we are actually the ones at issue. It's far easier and more convenient to consider other people to be at fault, or to be the issue, the problem, the toxics. However, in the Eve context, if the community is toxic (ie. not like you), then who is the odd one out? If everyone else thinks a different way, then isn't there the possibility that your own thinking is in the minority and really there's nothing wrong with the broader community just because they think differently. Thinking differently doesn't make someone toxic (which is only ever used in a negative context), especially in the context of a video game. You're projecting. Stop it. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 739	Posted - 2016.08.14 00:48:32 - [1444] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: I have been talking about "toxicity" in the community and we have another argument in another GD about "apathy". But I think we are both catching a sense of the same issue from different angles. We would probably disagree on when the train started coming off the rails but at first to make that argument I would have to sit and think about it and reflect on the past. Something is definitely missing as you say, and I have argued toxicity, but perhaps what I'm seeing is what's filling the void left behind by what you say is missing. Can't quite put my finger on it yet. Thank you for that post. P.S: most of the people I had any bond with are gone from the game and the rest are leaving. If you honestly answer the question of 'What do you mean by toxicity?", at some point it summarises to 'certain people who think differently to the way I do'. There may be many other descriptions, but few people willingly consider themselves 'part of the problem'. It's always someone else. Not just in Eve. In most things we all generally do in life. Rarely do any of us reflect on whether we are actually the ones at issue. It's far easier and more convenient to consider other people to be at fault, or to be the issue, the problem, the toxics. However, in the Eve context, if the community is toxic (ie. not like you), then who is the odd one out? If everyone else thinks a different way, then isn't there the possibility that your own thinking is in the minority and really there's nothing wrong with the broader community just because they think differently. Thinking differently doesn't make someone toxic (which is only ever used in a negative context), especially in the context of a video game. You're projecting. Stop it. Yes, that was a very intelligent and effective response. Good on you. It convinced me. The community is toxic, except you. You are the shining light of what is reasonable and example of the only way to play Eve appropriately. Anyone who plays it differently is driving people away from the game.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5779	Posted - 2016.08.14 01:05:19 - [1445] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: In a game having its very foundations built on consequences, this change in direction has undone the very reason to play EvE: a competitive game where victory or return back to competitivity is always as close and your credit card is. You carebears are ridiculous. You all come here complaining how pvp drives people away, reducing CCP's revenue, but as soon as CCP introduce ways to increase revenue, you complain again. No wonder CCP ignore it all. Carebears are not the only ones who are unhappy with CCP's decision to go straight-up Pay-To-Win... Heh... carebear... the last time I have run 1 mission or similar is years ago Also, I am fondly reminding games that, when you died, you'd lose 1/3+ of a level, in a time when 1 level could take 1 month of frequent playing and all it took to die was for some squirrel to have some stupid "permastun" ability till you'd die (aka: subtle hint by the game designers to play in a group). I am also fondly reminding pre-PLEX, pre $1000 jeans, pre.... crap EvE. When having a carrier was a sensible achievement, and a BS would sort of incute fear, not a "lol I go point it and orbit till it dies" (say because current fleet doctrine dictates using long range weapons) . Just saying. EvE Online portal \| EvE markets tutorials
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5106	Posted - 2016.08.14 04:33:17 - [1446] - Quote Well... No...what a bunch of navel gazing **** heads. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Bishop Aidartier Gower Towing and Scrap 35	Posted - 2016.08.14 05:51:50 - [1447] - Quote People leave eve because they don't enjoy it. People don't enjoy it because they are bad at it. People are bad at it because they don't take the time to learn the game mechanics and how to use them to their benefit. Eve is a game made for people who want to win.
Manaconda Jones Government DARKNESS. 2	Posted - 2016.08.14 07:58:33 - [1448] - Quote On a funny note, I was heavily involved in writing MUDs back in the day, I helped write the original diku mud code and was involved in the production of two of the major muds of their time. Sojourn and Arctic. I guess we have a similar approach or expectation. Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Solecist Project wrote: Beta Maoye wrote: Extract a database of all about the lost players for the past 3 years. Analyze their daily activities that they spent most time in the game. Form a list of activities from the most popular to the least popular. Compare these activities with similar features that provided by competitors. Honestly sort out the advantages or disadvantages of EVE against competitors for these activities. A general picture of why the game is losing players will be revealed. Invalid. This works only for games that are equal. EVE works on completely different base mechanics than the crap you seem to be playing ... ... which is tailored to the masses to enjoy. And we all know the masses. They're horrible. That's why pre-MMO era online games were better imo. I have played and forgotten perhaps 20 MMOs. However I still recall every MUD (!!!) and in general late 90' - early 2k online game I played. These were 100-500 people communities, they had a massively insane rate of players retention because you'd form very strong bonds. Even today, I still have fun and I * shoot videos * when I play an early 2k "MMO" and meet Felicia, who effectively meets and play with me since 14 years. 14 years online friendship, many marriages last less than that. EvE came right after that early wave and EvE in fact formed an incredibly solid "ancient players" core. EvE still had the goodness of those "pre MMO" era games (and in fact, it did not launch with 500k subs at day zero like other games did). EvE started declining in the soul before in the subs, when those ancient players started quitting (turnover, jobs, whatever) and got replaced by a more "current" playerbase, including the elite of such playerbase. They are elite but not the old "we'll form a 12+ years long bond" kind of elite, but "just" good players. I know this is an extremely hard to describe, subtle - very subtle change that happened without anyone noticing at first. But it happened. I have known some corp mates in EvE who were beta players... they were just different. I have know many excellent, even awesome newer players who now rank high in alliances but... it's not the same thing. There's something inside that got lost, the feeling you cannot forget when you first defeated your foe in an old game where actions mattered. Also, not really too distant from the above: In modern EvE, you go -10, you biomass. And forget it's forbidden, nobody is going to catch you. In modern EvE, there's always "alliance reimbursment" so your screwups don't matter. In modern EvE, you put a bounty and.... who cares. In modern EvE, return to success is always a couple of PLEXes away. In a game having its very foundations built on consequences, this change in direction has undone the very reason to play EvE: a competitive game where victory or return back to competitivity is always as close and your credit card is.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 17881	Posted - 2016.08.14 09:20:53 - [1449] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: In a game having its very foundations built on consequences, this change in direction has undone the very reason to play EvE: a competitive game where victory or return back to competitivity is always as close and your credit card is. You carebears are ridiculous. You all come here complaining how pvp drives people away, reducing CCP's revenue, but as soon as CCP introduce ways to increase revenue, you complain again. No wonder CCP ignore it all. Carebears are not the only ones who are unhappy with CCP's decision to go straight-up Pay-To-Win... Heh... carebear... the last time I have run 1 mission or similar is years ago Also, I am fondly reminding games that, when you died, you'd lose 1/3+ of a level, in a time when 1 level could take 1 month of frequent playing and all it took to die was for some squirrel to have some stupid "permastun" ability till you'd die (aka: subtle hint by the game designers to play in a group). I am also fondly reminding pre-PLEX, pre $1000 jeans, pre.... crap EvE. When having a carrier was a sensible achievement, and a BS would sort of incute fear, not a "lol I go point it and orbit till it dies" (say because current fleet doctrine dictates using long range weapons) . Just saying. Pre-PLEX there were GTCs, and don't say nobody sold them. The GTC forum was extremely busy. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2155	Posted - 2016.08.14 09:56:40 - [1450] - Quote https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/4xmzcg/a_tale_on_jspace/?st=irufo95p&sh=514b4887 Another example of someone who gets it... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 511	Posted - 2016.08.14 12:02:58 - [1451] - Quote Malcanis wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: [quote=Dirty Forum Alt][quote=Shae Tadaruwa][quote=Vaerah Vahrokha] In a game having its very foundations built on consequences, this change in direction has undone the very reason to play EvE: a competitive game where victory or return back to competitivity is always as close and your credit card is. Pre-PLEX there were GTCs, and don't say nobody sold them. The GTC forum was extremely busy. EVE has always had ways to buy isk if you wanted to badly enough, yes - but they went from the days of GTCs where it was kind of a hassle to buy/sell them, so most people didn't bother... To the days of PLEX where they could be bought/sold with ease.... To the brief Somer Blink fiasco where people got "bonus isk" to feed their gambling addiction when they bought PLEX (and don't tell me that wasn't CCP supported, unless CCP is going to give me a "Stratios Emergency Responder" or other unique ship (only 3 ever released? - all to Somer Blink, as a reward for boosting PLEX sales)... To PLEX + AUR, with all of the assorted new items you could then spend real-world money on and resell in game... To the modern EVE, with PLEX + AUR + Skill Extractors/Injectors. And to those who claim the skill injectors are "just an extension of the character Bazaar" - you are idiots. It is now profitable to farm/sell SP, and people are doing it. In just the half a year since they have been released trillions of new SP has been created and sold just from the gigantic alt-sp farms. Anybody can set them up, many people are, and they are using their profits to expand their farming collections as well...And this will continue until the SP market crashes, one way or another. You can argue that many games are pay-to-win, and they do just fine. Lots of people enjoy them. And certainly it is making CCP record amounts of profit. I'm not disputing any of that. And you would be correct - Pay-To-Win is now an accepted, common gaming model. It isn't inherently a "bad" thing. But stop trying to pretend EVE hasn't become a Pay-To-Win game...because at this point it is really just too blatant to pretend any more. Those of us (primarily old-school gamers) who don't like it are merely prejudiced against it. We certainly shouldn't be telling anybody else to hate it. But we do have the right to maintain our prejudices and be unhappy with it ourselves. And many of us will (or already have) unsubscribe over it, that is just the way these things work. If CCP does their jobs right, our places will be taken by more open minded gamers, prepared to play in the Pay-To-Win universe of EVE Online.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 739	Posted - 2016.08.14 12:14:24 - [1452] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/4xmzcg/a_tale_on_jspace/?st=irufo95p&sh=514b4887 Another example of someone who gets it... I agree with his post, especially this bit: Quote: What I mean to say with this wall of text of examples is quite simply. WH is an ecosystem and the balance is PVP vs PVE. The PVE was adjusted so drastically that it affects directly PVP side of things negatively. and this bit: Quote: PI and 0% risk gas is better ISK per spent hour (you can do both afk) than active site running. Some other good points in his post.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 17884	Posted - 2016.08.14 12:54:48 - [1453] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: EVE has always had ways to buy isk if you wanted to badly enough, yes - but they went from the days of GTCs where it was kind of a hassle to buy/sell them, so most people didn't bother... I like the way you immediately tried to feed the exact line of bullshit I asked you not to. EVE has had ISK for game time and ISK for character sales since pretty much the beginning. Trying to pretend otherwise is the worst kind of whitewashing nostalgia. People have been complaining about "pay to win" since the beginning as well. The actual definition of "pay to win" is "pay RL money to gain an advantage not otherwise available". EVE doesn't have that and it never did. It has, since day 0, had the facility to pay RL money to gain an advantage - CCP's very liberal policies on character trading and GTC sales ensured that. I know you don't want it to be true because it undermines your "when I was young EVE was so much better in an indefinable way not supported by any actual metric!" narrative, but there we are. Your problem is with reality, and only you can deal with that. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 512	Posted - 2016.08.14 13:33:14 - [1454] - Quote Malcanis wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: EVE has always had ways to buy isk if you wanted to badly enough, yes - but they went from the days of GTCs where it was kind of a hassle to buy/sell them, so most people didn't bother... I like the way you immediately tried to feed the exact line of bullshit I asked you not to. EVE has had ISK for game time and ISK for character sales since pretty much the beginning. Trying to pretend otherwise is the worst kind of whitewashing nostalgia. I like how you think you are disagreeing with me...when I literally just said you were right about this... And you are mad at me for it...yeah...how dare I say you were right... Literally all I said beyond agreeing with you that it has been around from the beginning is that it has gotten easier over the years...And surely not even you can dispute that... Malcanis wrote: People have been complaining about "pay to win" since the beginning as well. The actual definition of "pay to win" is "pay RL money to gain an advantage not otherwise available". EVE doesn't have that and it never did. It has, since day 0, had the facility to pay RL money to gain an advantage - CCP's very liberal policies on character trading and GTC sales ensured that. Oh I see now... EVE isn't Pay-To-Win... It is just Pay-To-Win.... I don't even know what else to say here...if you have suffered a recent head trauma, please seek medical attention...because you have clearly suffered brain damage... Malcanis wrote: I know you don't want it to be true because it undermines your "when I was young EVE was so much better in an indefinable way not supported by any actual metric!" narrative, but there we are. Your problem is with reality, and only you can deal with that. Actually there are several easy and very clearly defined metrics we could use: Isk value of PLEX + multiple training certs + skill extractors sold vs the isk value of GTCs sold in the old days would be one... Or the amount of $$$ spent on the game minus the amount paid for subs... I also was very careful to point out that this is not a "problem" - and that the game isn't "worse" just because of this... The only one with a problem here appears to be... YOU.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 512	Posted - 2016.08.14 13:37:11 - [1455] - Quote And before you jump in and point out that "not otherwise available" - waiting 20+ YEARS for all the skills to train...that doesn't really count. The advantages are not available if you do not spend RL money...and never have been. It has always been a savings of time and/or effort above all else.
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 804	Posted - 2016.08.14 14:07:48 - [1456] - Quote Bishop Aidartier wrote: People leave eve because they don't enjoy it. People don't enjoy it because they are bad at it. People are bad at it because they don't take the time to learn the game mechanics and how to use them to their benefit. Eve is a game made for people who want to win. Not always the case. I play for fun. I see fun elsewhere, see the game(s) need a commitment, I can leave current game. Eve has been around a few years. Some leave to try other stuff after a while. I left for 11 months for this reason..jsut came back. This was not my first break. Probably not the last. Other games in other genre's had me wander away. No failing of eve, no failing of my skill. I saw fun in other genre's....pursued that. I went to blizzard ville for while amongst other games makers stuff. Not wow lol...I never even played wow. Heroes of the storm, gave the SCII expansions a go plus MP action, a few D3 seasonal runs. Case of D3 for example...I said lets give ARPG a go again. As eve doesn't offer that I went to a source that did. In the past I just plex'd this and didn't play (active to put in skills only basically). If the witch hunt looking for causes...its probably here for one of them. In and out eve players don't plex while in other games like they used to if like me. Back in the good ole days of say 350 mil plex....yeah I bought this up, tacked on some months of play used only to run training. At 6 years and change. the high cost of plex....I don't emo rage over lost training time. Quite the contrary...I am much happier having the isk to play with I saved not plexing on my return.
Chronos Thiesant Deep Sky Enterprises 16	Posted - 2016.08.14 14:46:52 - [1457] - Quote As I said in my last post, people are leaving because the game has stagnated. Being able to restock quickly with plex is part of this, but like many people have said already, ISK for cash has been possible for a long time. The real issue is corps and alliances have already got all the power/ resources/ whatever that they want. It is a bigger issue than individual players. At the beginning, when eve was it's best, there was huge amounts of unclaimed space. There were not so many monolithic groups that are so large they are effectively out of smaller groups reach. These huge groups have carved up the best space between them and have left "worthless" space for everyone else. These groups want so badly to hold onto what they have that they even blue potential fun targets to preserve themselves, which makes sense as self-preservation obviously. The problem is that there is next to no way to force the breakup of large alliances. They can only grow and grow, getting further out of reach of new startups. They aren't dumb, so they avoid situations that would lead to their breakup. CCP should implement some kind of "wildfire" mechanic which would occasionally cause massive destruction to corps and alliances to level the playing field. This would allow smaller groups to again fight to become large, and it would force the current large groups to prove they still have the skill to make it again.
Denavit We are not bad. Just unlucky DARKNESS. 16	Posted - 2016.08.14 16:10:47 - [1458] - Quote Maybe create more conflict will help make the game hot again, put a limit to allies or something, I do think null needs a new motivation, not just ISK, maybe some SP bonuses per conquered systems, or unique effects or items, maybe Tech 4 items, as an example, where you can only fabric T4 items in null sec, Building a Cerberus for example, just gives you like 10mill isk in return, A carrier, like 50-100mill, A T3 is the same, it doesn-¦t worth the trouble to build them, market is saturated in high sec! they build it all with no risk and drop all the orices, maybe if you move capital builds and T3 builds to low and null sec, it will increase its value, and make more ppl eager to fight and make new alliances.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2156	Posted - 2016.08.14 16:30:31 - [1459] - Quote Denavit wrote: Maybe create more conflict will help make the game hot again, put a limit to allies or something, I do think null needs a new motivation, not just ISK, maybe some SP bonuses per conquered systems, or unique effects or items, maybe Tech 4 items, as an example, where you can only fabric T4 items in null sec, Building a Cerberus for example, just gives you like 10mill isk in return, A carrier, like 50-100mill, A T3 is the same, it doesn-¦t worth the trouble to build them, market is saturated in high sec! they build it all with no risk and drop all the prices, maybe if you move capital builds and T3 builds to low and null sec, it will increase its value, and make more ppl eager to fight and make new alliances. Carriers and Dreads are made in lowsec though their components can be made in hisec. Supers and Titans can only be made in null sec. Also there is significant risk in moving bulky expensive items in hisec which you seem to ignore. And those people in hisec have no interest in moving to lowsec or null sec, all you will do is remove content from people already starved of decent content. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Shallanna Yassavi Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 319	Posted - 2016.08.14 16:34:39 - [1460] - Quote Chronos Thiesant wrote: As I said in my last post, people are leaving because the game has stagnated. Being able to restock quickly with plex is part of this, but like many people have said already, ISK for cash has been possible for a long time. The real issue is corps and alliances have already got all the power/ resources/ whatever that they want. It is a bigger issue than individual players. At the beginning, when eve was it's best, there was huge amounts of unclaimed space. There were not so many monolithic groups that are so large they are effectively out of smaller groups reach. These huge groups have carved up the best space between them and have left "worthless" space for everyone else. These groups want so badly to hold onto what they have that they even blue potential fun targets to preserve themselves, which makes sense as self-preservation obviously. The problem is that there is next to no way to force the breakup of large alliances. They can only grow and grow, getting further out of reach of new startups. They aren't dumb, so they avoid situations that would lead to their breakup. CCP should implement some kind of "wildfire" mechanic which would occasionally cause massive destruction to corps and alliances to level the playing field. This would allow smaller groups to again fight to become large, and it would force the current large groups to prove they still have the skill to make it again. A well-placed spai or three can make a serious mess of a large group. A lot of these large groups are bears with no fighting spirit. They say "we need miners/ratters, we'll keep you safe, money is better out here." If they can't deliver on the second one, the industrial juggernaut slows down because bears don't like getting blown up. They leave for somewhere they won't get blown up. They also understand that people roaming around want good fights. Why drop 50 supers on a wandering BC? Besides just showing force, it shows there are no good fights there. It also shows they're easily distracted: if you can get them to drop their super fleets on some random BC/small fleet at one end of their space, jump fatigue will make responses sluggish to an attack on the other end. There's strategic scale stuff which can be done to them-if anyone has the hardware and wants to. As far as the game is designed, ye olde fight over resources is pointless. Grind out more of them in your sov system, and they just keep coming back in more abundance, thanks to sov mechanics. A signature :o
Aaron Stain Syndicate 411	Posted - 2016.08.14 17:28:13 - [1461] - Quote Ok, so you guys have discussed the reasons for why less users are playing each year, Could we focus on solutions that do not involve CCP changing anything? For a number of years I have done my best to provide content for Eve Online and have tried to put forward a few survival techniques that could of inspired a different type of game play to emerge. Going back a few pages I saw that people were complaining about how easy it is to bump and eventually gank a freighter, the solution to this seems to involve having some friends to jam the ship bumping the freighter and another friend to web it it so it can goto warp faster. Can anyone see how being part of a blue community could help here? I know your answers already, you're going to say that blue communities can't be organised and a proper leadership structure needs to be in place. I think you are wrong and that your attitudes and perceptions toward my views are ignorant. Why not be part of a blue community? Why can't dudes who know how to escort freighters be part of this community and charge a reasonable amount of isk to escort freighters? Why can't freighter pilots join this community and pay escort services to get their freighters to their destination? I just think we should do everything we can to remedy the problem before complaining and going on strike. I'm not trying to say CCP is perfect, all I am saying is the mechanics are what they are and we just need to get our thinking caps on and work out a way get around it. A big part of the problem is peoples attitudes toward the game, CCP has marketed this game in a manner that should show you that GABOS (Game Ain't Based On Sympathy) applies here fully, the gloves are off and you seriously have to keep your wits about you in order to achieve your personal or corp/alliance goals. This is my kind of game and I love it I love realism, I love it when odds are not in my favour, to me this is as real as scifi/games can get. There's nothing set in stone that says CCP has to make the game to your liking. Like I have always said for a long time, the hisec populace has more power than they know. Take some time to understand exactly what pvp'ers are trying to do to you, learn the counter move. Once you've learnt it, teach it to someone else and at the same time be prepared to have other people teach you things about pvp. When you are ready drop me a mail and I will assist in building this blue community in hisec and nullsec, We can have fun doing stuff about ganking and other problems in the game and we will help the little guy. I hope this message didn't fall upon deaf ears I do not want to see my beautiful Eve Online go under please help me to provide a better experience because we are all investors in this game so lets act like it and take control of where this game is clearly headed. Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2156	Posted - 2016.08.14 17:42:39 - [1462] - Quote Aaron wrote: Ok, so you guys have discussed the reasons for why less users are playing each year, Could we focus on solutions that do not involve CCP changing anything? For a number of years I have done my best to provide content for Eve Online and have tried to put forward a few survival techniques that could of inspired a different type of game play to emerge. Going back a few pages I saw that people were complaining about how easy it is to bump and eventually gank a freighter, the solution to this seems to involve having some friends to jam the ship bumping the freighter and another friend to web it it so it can goto warp faster. Can anyone see how being part of a blue community could help here? I know your answers already, you're going to say that blue communities can't be organised and a proper leadership structure needs to be in place. I think you are wrong and that your attitudes and perceptions toward my views are ignorant. Why not be part of a blue community? Why can't dudes who know how to escort freighters be part of this community and charge a reasonable amount of isk to escort freighters? Why can't freighter pilots join this community and pay escort services to get their freighters to their destination? I just think we should do everything we can to remedy the problem before complaining and going on strike. I'm not trying to say CCP is perfect, all I am saying is the mechanics are what they are and we just need to get our thinking caps on and work out a way get around it. A big part of the problem is peoples attitudes toward the game, CCP has marketed this game in a manner that should show you that GABOS (Game Ain't Based On Sympathy) applies here fully, the gloves are off and you seriously have to keep your wits about you in order to achieve your personal or corp/alliance goals. This is my kind of game and I love it I love realism, I love it when odds are not in my favour, to me this is as real as scifi/games can get. There's nothing set in stone that says CCP has to make the game to your liking. Like I have always said for a long time, the hisec populace has more power than they know. Take some time to understand exactly what pvp'ers are trying to do to you, learn the counter move. Once you've learnt it, teach it to someone else and at the same time be prepared to have other people teach you things about pvp. When you are ready drop me a mail and I will assist in building this blue community in hisec and nullsec, We can have fun doing stuff about ganking and other problems in the game and we will help the little guy. I hope this message didn't fall upon deaf ears I do not want to see my beautiful Eve Online go under please help me to provide a better experience because we are all investors in this game so lets act like it and take control of where this game is clearly headed. You suggested jamming a ship that is bumping someone, perhaps you might want to think that through a bit more.... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Aaron Stain Syndicate 411	Posted - 2016.08.14 17:48:18 - [1463] - Quote No game on the market has ever made me strive to play better than Eve has, It has made me think outside the box many times, I've had to adapt my game play and find counter attacks for many of the opponents that I have faced, it has made me accept that within the game I am not strong enough to fight certain folks unless I find friends and come up with a plan of attack. I'm even inspired to write a story about my character just so I have a reference to all the good and bad times in Eve. Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17855	Posted - 2016.08.14 18:18:47 - [1464] - Quote Aaron wrote: Ok, so you guys have discussed the reasons for why less users are playing each year, Could we focus on solutions that do not involve CCP changing anything? Not really possible as its changes that have caused the problem. 85% of people who quit after their trial do so having done no pvp. All the evidence points to the more conflict you have the more people join the game. CCP have shown this in graphs and we have past evidence of higher growth back when EVE had more conflict going on. This doesn't mean make groups such as miners, haulers and so on helpless but it does mean reworking mistakes made in the past.
Wanda Fayne 261	Posted - 2016.08.14 18:34:44 - [1465] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Aaron wrote: Ok, so you guys have discussed the reasons for why less users are playing each year, Could we focus on solutions that do not involve CCP changing anything? Not really possible as its changes that have contributed to the problem. FTFY Ultimately it is people who define this game. You can stab someone with a spoon if you really want to edit. What is needed is a change in mindset. Mechanics alone will not do that. your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic -Lan Wang-
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17856	Posted - 2016.08.14 18:47:17 - [1466] - Quote Wanda Fayne wrote: edit. What is needed is a change in mindset. Mechanics alone will not do that. Change in mindset goes hand in hand with changes in mechanics and ship balance. Inject a bit of danger into an activity and people will adapt to the danger. For example, Null needed to have its power projection nerfed and when it happened there was a bitchfit by a fairly loud chunk but the outcome was great. No more flying across the galaxy the third party a fight and then back again in 2 hours. EVE got big again.
Aaron Stain Syndicate 411	Posted - 2016.08.14 19:12:05 - [1467] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Aaron wrote: Ok, so you guys have discussed the reasons for why less users are playing each year, Could we focus on solutions that do not involve CCP changing anything? Not really possible as its changes that have caused the problem. 85% of people who quit after their trial do so having done no pvp. All the evidence points to the more conflict you have the more people join the game. CCP have shown this in graphs and we have past evidence of higher growth back when EVE had more conflict going on. This doesn't mean make groups such as miners, haulers and so on helpless but it does mean reworking mistakes made in the past. This is what I mean about ignorance, yes of course the mechanics affect the way people play. My point is that we should work harder to make something out of this regardless of the mechanic. I've been living out in Stain for god knows how long and yes mechanic changes affect me too, It is hard for me to get stuff to hisec yes....Do I stop logging on and complain about the changes on forums? No. I roll my sleeves up, scan out the nearest wormhole and eventually find a route to hi sec....Can you see what I did here? I learned quickly that if you adapt to the mechanics it makes things easier. You have a negative way at looking at these issues, I see mechanic changes as a challenge you see them as a problem. Positive mental attitude can help. wikipedia.org wrote: Positive mental attitude (PMA) is the philosophy that having an optimistic disposition in every situation in one's life attracts positive changes and increases achievement. Adherents employ a state of mind that continues to seek, find and execute ways to win, or find a desirable outcome, regardless of the circumstances. It opposes negativity, defeatism and hopelessness. Optimism and hope are vital to the development of PMA. Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
Aaron Stain Syndicate 414	Posted - 2016.08.14 19:23:46 - [1468] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Aaron wrote: Ok, so you guys have discussed the reasons for why less users are playing each year, Could we focus on solutions that do not involve CCP changing anything? For a number of years I have done my best to provide content for Eve Online and have tried to put forward a few survival techniques that could of inspired a different type of game play to emerge. Going back a few pages I saw that people were complaining about how easy it is to bump and eventually gank a freighter, the solution to this seems to involve having some friends to jam the ship bumping the freighter and another friend to web it it so it can goto warp faster. Can anyone see how being part of a blue community could help here? I know your answers already, you're going to say that blue communities can't be organised and a proper leadership structure needs to be in place. I think you are wrong and that your attitudes and perceptions toward my views are ignorant. Why not be part of a blue community? Why can't dudes who know how to escort freighters be part of this community and charge a reasonable amount of isk to escort freighters? Why can't freighter pilots join this community and pay escort services to get their freighters to their destination? I just think we should do everything we can to remedy the problem before complaining and going on strike. I'm not trying to say CCP is perfect, all I am saying is the mechanics are what they are and we just need to get our thinking caps on and work out a way get around it. A big part of the problem is peoples attitudes toward the game, CCP has marketed this game in a manner that should show you that GABOS (Game Ain't Based On Sympathy) applies here fully, the gloves are off and you seriously have to keep your wits about you in order to achieve your personal or corp/alliance goals. This is my kind of game and I love it I love realism, I love it when odds are not in my favour, to me this is as real as scifi/games can get. There's nothing set in stone that says CCP has to make the game to your liking. Like I have always said for a long time, the hisec populace has more power than they know. Take some time to understand exactly what pvp'ers are trying to do to you, learn the counter move. Once you've learnt it, teach it to someone else and at the same time be prepared to have other people teach you things about pvp. When you are ready drop me a mail and I will assist in building this blue community in hisec and nullsec, We can have fun doing stuff about ganking and other problems in the game and we will help the little guy. I hope this message didn't fall upon deaf ears I do not want to see my beautiful Eve Online go under please help me to provide a better experience because we are all investors in this game so lets act like it and take control of where this game is clearly headed. You suggested jamming a ship that is bumping someone, perhaps you might want to think that through a bit more.... I meant that ECM ships should be part of the escort to jam the bumper or any other ship that points the freighter if needed. Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2156	Posted - 2016.08.14 19:29:01 - [1469] - Quote Aaron wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Aaron wrote: Ok, so you guys have discussed the reasons for why less users are playing each year, Could we focus on solutions that do not involve CCP changing anything? For a number of years I have done my best to provide content for Eve Online and have tried to put forward a few survival techniques that could of inspired a different type of game play to emerge. Going back a few pages I saw that people were complaining about how easy it is to bump and eventually gank a freighter, the solution to this seems to involve having some friends to jam the ship bumping the freighter and another friend to web it it so it can goto warp faster. Can anyone see how being part of a blue community could help here? ... removed for space. You suggested jamming a ship that is bumping someone, perhaps you might want to think that through a bit more.... I meant that ECM ships should be part of the escort to jam the bumper or any other ship that points the freighter if needed. If you jam the bumper you will be CONCORDED as they have not aggressed in terms of the mechanics. A bumper can at the moment keep a ship effectively pointed for hours without going suspect or criminal. Also jamming the bumper will have zero affect on the bumping that he is doing. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17856	Posted - 2016.08.14 19:35:08 - [1470] - Quote Aaron wrote: This is what I mean about ignorance, yes of course the mechanics affect the way people play. My point is that we should work harder to make something out of this regardless of the mechanic. I've been living out in Stain for god knows how long and yes mechanic changes affect me too, It is hard for me to get stuff to hisec yes....Do I stop logging on and complain about the changes on forums? No. I roll my sleeves up, scan out the nearest wormhole and eventually find a route to hi sec....Can you see what I did here? I learned quickly that if you adapt to the mechanics it makes things easier. You have a negative way at looking at these issues, I see mechanic changes as a challenge you see them as a problem. Positive mental attitude can help. All the positive thoughts in the world won't bring back Hulkageddon, ice interdictions, jetcan piracy and a reason the fly the hulk over a skiff.
Solecist Project 32106	Posted - 2016.08.14 19:37:26 - [1471] - Quote If you want to save the game, you have to fight for the most precious asset - or resource - in the game. A fight that is dominated by carebears, except in one or two select locations. But it would involve work and most people don't want that work. This isn't the community from back then, that would gladly have taken this onto themselves. It's actually really easy. You hook them with both with a sense of adventure ... ... and with an adrenaline rush. That's the easy part. The hard part is actually attracting them. Sitting in rookie-corp and trying to gather their attention. (often just silence and no one reading) Try sitting in rookie-system and gathering their attention. (see above) You want to save the game, then save it from the bullshit that they are going through. The earlier you free them, the better it will be. Everything else ... all the bullshit details about how people want this or that mechanic changed IN THE NAME OF THE NEWBIE AND RETENTION RATE are nothing but selfish bullshit projected onto others. There is no mechanic that could be changed that would help anything, unless these mechanics serve the purpose of increasing interactivity, sense of adventure and immersion. Immersion can only be properly achieved by having new players realize that they are not alone and that there are actually things going on, instead of having them cruise through highsec completely ignorant of their surroundings. If you want to save the game, then that's where you have to go. And then force CCP to make it possible to fluidly switch between NPC and rookie corps. Force them to make new players actual assets people actually want to fight for and you have a winner. Pearls before the swine ... "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Aaron Stain Syndicate 414	Posted - 2016.08.14 19:41:58 - [1472] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Aaron wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Aaron wrote: Ok, so you guys have discussed the reasons for why less users are playing each year, Could we focus on solutions that do not involve CCP changing anything? For a number of years I have done my best to provide content for Eve Online and have tried to put forward a few survival techniques that could of inspired a different type of game play to emerge. Going back a few pages I saw that people were complaining about how easy it is to bump and eventually gank a freighter, the solution to this seems to involve having some friends to jam the ship bumping the freighter and another friend to web it it so it can goto warp faster. Can anyone see how being part of a blue community could help here? ... removed for space. You suggested jamming a ship that is bumping someone, perhaps you might want to think that through a bit more.... I meant that ECM ships should be part of the escort to jam the bumper or any other ship that points the freighter if needed. If you jam the bumper you will be CONCORDED as they have not aggressed in terms of the mechanics. A bumper can at the moment keep a ship effectively pointed for hours without going suspect or criminal. Also jamming the bumper will have zero affect on the bumping that he is doing. Ok, so the scenario is... A freighter, 2 blackbirds, and a webber are going about their business and are set upon by a Macherial who proceeds to bump the frieghter so that the gank fleet can come in and destroy it. I think I read that if you don't point a freighter after 3 minutes it can warp unless it is pointed...was this an idea or is it part of the current mechanic? If that is the current mechanic, then Drac can you not see that ECM ships are useful to have as part of the escort? If the freighter does get pointed wouldn't it make sense to suicide 2 blackbirds in the hope of disabling the point so the freight can be webbed and warp to safety? Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
Solecist Project 32106	Posted - 2016.08.14 19:43:12 - [1473] - Quote To add to this: CCP Ghosts idea of giving new players their own stories to get them hooked are nice, but this will only really work if these stories are not based on NPCs. If they are, the whole situation will just get WORSE. There. Btw, I tried everything I've written above. I probably did more than 90% of you people who mostly talk. Now some moron will get triggered and complain about it. I bet - at best - 0.1% of you will even try and of these probably 50% will fail because it was an half-assed approach. So ... the last thing you need to consider is that the best and likeliest way of succeeding is getting organized. As I said ... treat noobs like a valueable resource and you will win this game. Or let the carebears keep dominating until the game's run into the ground for good. Feel free to mail me for a talk ... but I know you people, you only talk. vOv (who's the first to get triggered?) "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2157	Posted - 2016.08.14 20:01:50 - [1474] - Quote Aaron wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Aaron wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Aaron wrote: Ok, so you guys have discussed the reasons for why less users are playing each year, Could we focus on solutions that do not involve CCP changing anything? For a number of years I have done my best to provide content for Eve Online and have tried to put forward a few survival techniques that could of inspired a different type of game play to emerge. Going back a few pages I saw that people were complaining about how easy it is to bump and eventually gank a freighter, the solution to this seems to involve having some friends to jam the ship bumping the freighter and another friend to web it it so it can goto warp faster. Can anyone see how being part of a blue community could help here? ... removed for space. You suggested jamming a ship that is bumping someone, perhaps you might want to think that through a bit more.... I meant that ECM ships should be part of the escort to jam the bumper or any other ship that points the freighter if needed. If you jam the bumper you will be CONCORDED as they have not aggressed in terms of the mechanics. A bumper can at the moment keep a ship effectively pointed for hours without going suspect or criminal. Also jamming the bumper will have zero affect on the bumping that he is doing. Ok, so the scenario is... A freighter, 2 blackbirds, and a webber are going about their business and are set upon by a Macherial who proceeds to bump the frieghter so that the gank fleet can come in and destroy it. I think I read that if you don't point a freighter after 3 minutes it can warp unless it is pointed...was this an idea or is it part of the current mechanic? If that is the current mechanic, then Drac can you not see that ECM ships are useful to have as part of the escort? If the freighter does get pointed wouldn't it make sense to suicide 2 blackbirds in the hope of disabling the point so the freight can be webbed and warp to safety? At the present moment the fix for bumping has not been applied, there is no ETA on it as far as we know, so it is not part of the current mechanic. When the mechanic does get applied or if it gets applied the ganker has to apply a point to re-set the 3 minute timer, it is likely to be a noob ship with a sensor booster and sensor strength script added to it. But have you realised that your whole approach breaks down because this is a change to the game mechanic which you said was not needed. Webbing does not enable the freighter to get out of the bump, you need to understand how the mechanic works, all webbing does is reduce top speed. Also you have the issue of having to do a duel or be in a corp with the freighter and have it set so you can fire on them . But the Macherial is still there bumping, your only option is to blow up the Macherial. A Macherial setup for the most efficient bumping can be killed with one Talos, however if they add a little bit of a tank and most now do, it gets up to 3 or 4 Talos. The best option at the moment is to come in and gank the suicide blackbird before it points the freighter so your webber can get the freighter into warp before the bumper can get on it. You should go and try this out, note the Blackbird normally has a 1600 plate on it due to gate guns. I have not looked into what it would take to gank that blackbird at this point, but you might want to check it out. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17856	Posted - 2016.08.14 20:08:49 - [1475] - Quote Use a web to get the freighter into warp before its even a problem. Bump the bumpers. Get a fast ship out in front of the bumped freighter and warp to that. Gank the bumper.
Aaron Stain Syndicate 414	Posted - 2016.08.14 20:20:14 - [1476] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Use a web to get the freighter into warp before its even a problem. Bump the bumpers. Get a fast ship out in front of the bumped freighter and warp to that. Gank the bumper. Yes, I was wrong on the exact details and mechanics. If anyone bothered to read my whole post I talk about having friends to carry out these roles of bumping the bumper, get into a blue community where there are people know how to do what baltec mentions and hire them to escort your freighter. Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
Aaron Stain Syndicate 414	Posted - 2016.08.14 20:29:46 - [1477] - Quote Aaron wrote: baltec1 wrote: Use a web to get the freighter into warp before its even a problem. Bump the bumpers. Get a fast ship out in front of the bumped freighter and warp to that. Gank the bumper. Yes, I was wrong on the exact details and mechanics. If anyone bothered to read my whole post I talk about having friends to carry out these roles of bumping the bumper, get into a blue community where there are people know how to do what baltec mentions and hire them to escort your freighter. According to the statistics posted earlier in this thread Black/Red frog don't seem to have a problem with their freighter runs and losses. Perhaps we could find out what they do to avoid/counter ganks and adopt it into our playstyle? Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 611	Posted - 2016.08.14 20:32:41 - [1478] - Quote According to redfrog sources, they simply autopilot and don't accept over 1 bil's worth. The occasional losses are factored into the price.
Aaron Stain Syndicate 414	Posted - 2016.08.14 21:57:24 - [1479] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: According to redfrog sources, they simply autopilot and don't accept over 1 bil's worth. The occasional losses are factored into the price. Edit: I went ahead to look up the source. Dual Cargo Extenders plus 1 bil collateral max- as explained in the FAQ. No webber/scout as the contract alts are under permadec. Q3: Are there any restrictions? A: Yes. EVE is a cold, harsh place so we had to implement certain restrictions on our trips: 1. Hisec ONLY. For losec/nosec work Black Frog Logistics: Channel Black Frog 2. Max 1 Billion collateral per trip. For higher collateral work Blue Frog Freight: Channel Blue Frog 3. Max 845k m3 volume per trip. 4. Minimum 3 days expiration and 1 day completion. Under holidays etc, minimum expiration can be set to 7 days. Our trip calculator will let you know The 1 billion collateral is because that is just below the profitability threshold of hisec suicide gank fleets. The 845k m3 volume limit is because it can be handled by a Fenrir pilot with freighter 4 (freighter 5 takes forever to train and few people do it). We only work in hisec because losec/nosec is instant death to a lone freighter pilot. There you go. Well it seems clear to me that we have to accept that Black/Red Frog are professionals in haulage and they seem to have policies in place that help them stay under the gankers radar and continue doing business. It seems they do use freighters due to the 843k m3 limit. Could we not just let these guys lead the way in setting an operational standard and copy them? I get that there are more mechanics people have a problem with like the war dec, many of the perceived problems could be solved by changing attitude to one where youre open to listening and working with others and adopting their playstyle because it works. CCP allow me to post my "Invitation to 0.0" threads on their main forum, I think they endorse ideas for a relaxed blue community working in nul/hil-sec and helping one another out. Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 739	Posted - 2016.08.14 22:04:47 - [1480] - Quote Aaron wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: According to redfrog sources, they simply autopilot and don't accept over 1 bil's worth. The occasional losses are factored into the price. Edit: I went ahead to look up the source. Dual Cargo Extenders plus 1 bil collateral max- as explained in the FAQ. No webber/scout as the contract alts are under permadec. Q3: Are there any restrictions? A: Yes. EVE is a cold, harsh place so we had to implement certain restrictions on our trips: 1. Hisec ONLY. For losec/nosec work Black Frog Logistics: Channel Black Frog 2. Max 1 Billion collateral per trip. For higher collateral work Blue Frog Freight: Channel Blue Frog 3. Max 845k m3 volume per trip. 4. Minimum 3 days expiration and 1 day completion. Under holidays etc, minimum expiration can be set to 7 days. Our trip calculator will let you know The 1 billion collateral is because that is just below the profitability threshold of hisec suicide gank fleets. The 845k m3 volume limit is because it can be handled by a Fenrir pilot with freighter 4 (freighter 5 takes forever to train and few people do it). We only work in hisec because losec/nosec is instant death to a lone freighter pilot. There you go. Well it seems clear to me that we have to accept that Black/Red Frog are professionals in haulage and they seem to have policies in place that help them stay under the gankers radar and continue doing business. It seems they do use freighters due to the 843k m3 limit. Could we not just let these guys lead the way in setting an operational standard and copy them? I get that there are more mechanics people have a problem with like the war dec, many of the perceived problems could be solved by changing attitude to one where youre open to listening and working with others and adopting their playstyle because it works. CCP allow me to post my "Invitation to 0.0" threads on their main forum, I think they endorse ideas for a relaxed blue community working in nul/hil-sec and helping one another out. Yes. The scourge of ganking isn't the issue it's made out to be. Suicide blackbirds are even less of an issue in terms of bumping avoidance. It's all just a lot of hot air that makes ganking look like a problem for the game when it isn't.
Aaron Stain Syndicate 414	Posted - 2016.08.14 23:09:08 - [1481] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Aaron wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: According to redfrog sources, they simply autopilot and don't accept over 1 bil's worth. The occasional losses are factored into the price. Edit: I went ahead to look up the source. Dual Cargo Extenders plus 1 bil collateral max- as explained in the FAQ. No webber/scout as the contract alts are under permadec. Q3: Are there any restrictions? A: Yes. EVE is a cold, harsh place so we had to implement certain restrictions on our trips: 1. Hisec ONLY. For losec/nosec work Black Frog Logistics: Channel Black Frog 2. Max 1 Billion collateral per trip. For higher collateral work Blue Frog Freight: Channel Blue Frog 3. Max 845k m3 volume per trip. 4. Minimum 3 days expiration and 1 day completion. Under holidays etc, minimum expiration can be set to 7 days. Our trip calculator will let you know The 1 billion collateral is because that is just below the profitability threshold of hisec suicide gank fleets. The 845k m3 volume limit is because it can be handled by a Fenrir pilot with freighter 4 (freighter 5 takes forever to train and few people do it). We only work in hisec because losec/nosec is instant death to a lone freighter pilot. There you go. Well it seems clear to me that we have to accept that Black/Red Frog are professionals in haulage and they seem to have policies in place that help them stay under the gankers radar and continue doing business. It seems they do use freighters due to the 843k m3 limit. Could we not just let these guys lead the way in setting an operational standard and copy them? I get that there are more mechanics people have a problem with like the war dec, many of the perceived problems could be solved by changing attitude to one where youre open to listening and working with others and adopting their playstyle because it works. CCP allow me to post my "Invitation to 0.0" threads on their main forum, I think they endorse ideas for a relaxed blue community working in nul/hil-sec and helping one another out. Yes. The scourge of ganking isn't the issue it's made out to be. Suicide blackbirds are even less of an issue in terms of bumping avoidance. People come here and share their individual stories, often with a view that their one personal experience represents the general situation. Few actually attempt to validate what they think. Whenever I have faced a problem I eventually adapt and once I do I find it easier to move forward. I remember not being so well versed in pvp living in Stain around 2005/6 I used to fly a heavy launcher fitted cerberus and clear the belt rats, There was a guy in a Falcon that kept hassling me and trying to extort money from me, he would ECM me and then fire at me the only option left was for me to warp away and smack talk in local, I was sick of him coming in local saying "1 billion isk a week or you can't ratting" So eventually I worked out what he was doing, went to hi-sec trained FOF missiles, brought bluprints and headed back to Stain. The Falcon pilot comes back and ECM's me and starts firing, I switch to FOF missiles and fire, he starts taking damage and warps off, I'm able to continue ratting ratting in peace. It was fun finding the counter and implementing it with 100% success, fair enough I didn't get a kill I got him off my back. Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
Markus Reese Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 857	Posted - 2016.08.15 00:36:33 - [1482] - Quote Long threadnaught, so will start just from the initial impressions. So why less players? Need to look at the history of eve throughout. And that starts with the OP's concept of PLEX. PLEX doesn't affect player quantiy, specifically the price. Highest player activities were well before PLEX existed. Eve play doesn't work on a FTP style of mechanic. FTP being where one group of players is casual and invests minimal, while a heavier competitive play group invests more. The issue of plex is that if the core game revolves around needing it, then some players leave. PLEX also works on two principles. That somebody doesn't want to grind and farm to ship, most often new players or PvP, and the other who has no issue with it. In a successful FTP mechanic, the player's experienced is enhanced. Eve does has examples of these. Most successful is things like skins. Skins are a great way to enhance. They are optional and I have spent more than a bit on Aurum since came out because I felt it was value and an enhancement. For the combat players, that same money goes to selling plex and others multibox, enhances their experience. Why is there still a Subscription that keeps plex valid? Because free play tends to lean towards a more casual experience. Plexing itself would be more successful, or more satisfaction with a sub rate if the value was more. That is why I haven't sold a plex, or bought skins recently. I find current game is not up to the standards of investing more than the sub. The experience to get a PLEX also not enjoyable. ----------PLEX OUT OF THE WAY--------- Okay, history. Back in the turn of the decade eve was hitting it's peak. 50k at a time log ins, wide battles, and accessible. Isk inflation and power creep has made certain areas of play inaccessible. If you want to get into something, instead of having the range of play as normal, you now need to niche. Poor, you gotta fly the low isk fleets. Want to maintain security status? Then stick to highsec. This one is where I group in. I hate pvp not for the pvp, but for the grind to replace ships if I want in the big fights, or if small gang, then I start losing access to a significant portion of the game. "Well, that is what alts are for" See previous statement of value. I have to pay twice as much just to have access to the whole game? Is why I went right from highsec to Null back in the day and limited my roams. I refused to lose the highsec access on my main character. Now more and more, to try and make things more engaging, niche ships and modules come out. In the name of balance. Changes that do not reflect on eve community. Even simple stuff like the new mining ship concepts revealed. Two mining lasers on all of them due to the role bonus. Is unfortunate that we are now losing something that is a stable image of eve. Make use of description or lore to explain the bonuses or other means. Fantastic models, but what value has removing that bit of eve signature brought. CCP and us as players need to look at eve for what it is on the gaming market place. We all have things we like about it, but why is the player base small and why is there a player base? Eve offers something unique. A full open game environment. Where from your first undock, you can fly to wherever you want. Success is not tied to SP or time in game or your farming but how you applied what you did and learned as a player. But over time, this started to cause issues. The force projection, the isk farms, players outdoing what the initial threats were. Result is stopgap things. Fancy tools and exception to rules that have put up more borders and reduced player freedom and ingenuity. Things start becoming mandatory instead of just ingenuity. This removes goals. Exploration is a favorite of mine where it got tweaked so all levels of it was instantly accessible. This also means that it quickly becomes worthless as the challenge is nothing more than a mechanic to be beaten and has removed the players from the equation for the most part. Toss isk at it, and you are in without the progression. Old data sites used to need some combat to get into. Means that you needed more than a fast cloaky ship to run null. needed friends, or be on the ball with a fine tuned fit. I find there is much more, but that is why. The gaming world is still unique, but the gaming experience isn't keeping up with the times and its satisfaction amongst new players is diminishing fast. To counter, more and more of the games is being developed to follow traditional game models. That works if you have a traditional game, but you got to offer it much better than what the market already has or maximize the original concept (see minecraft vs other voxel crafting games) CCP, maximize your concept. Following some traditional plan to the letter does not work. You need to customize it for EVE. Identify the unique features, and maximize them 1. Open world - Make it open again 2. Assorted account age player base - refine mechanics to encourage the incorporation of new players. Eve is supposed to be about ships dying? Well cheap new bean ships are easy to replace. Refine to have them an advantage means they don't care about ship loss, and they get in on the action instead of excluded. Apply same to encourage different playstyles interacting positively. Making PvE PvP fodder just makes the PvE peeps quit. Nobody wins. 3. Don't make it a penalty to play end game. If eve is about big fleet battles, why is it that to be part of that you need to grind, sell plex, etc to afford it in a meaningful way? Why should a player need alts just to be able to have a main that is a lowsec pirate just so they can still have access to half the game environment? Look and find answers to those, and the population will start to increase dramatically again. This development mentality is what led eve to it's peak. To quote Lfod Shi The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7920	Posted - 2016.08.15 06:45:06 - [1483] - Quote Markus Reese wrote: This removes goals. Exploration is a favorite of mine where it got tweaked so all levels of it was instantly accessible. This also means that it quickly becomes worthless as the challenge is nothing more than a mechanic to be beaten and has removed the players from the equation for the most part. Toss isk at it, and you are in without the progression. Old data sites used to need some combat to get into. Means that you needed more than a fast cloaky ship to run null. needed friends, or be on the ball with a fine tuned fit. You hit the nail on the head there brother. ....Exploration ... "open world".... Let me tell you something. Here's how I used to play Eve and loved it. Back in the day before there were SoE ships I used to fit a T1 Cyclone for exploration (a real "Captain Kirk" fit to would be ridiculous by today's standards but it worked) and use wormholes to go from highsec to nullsec and hit exploration sites. Occasionally I would hit sleeper sites too. An "exploration" Cyclone as I had it at best could do a lvl4 mission or a 4/10 so sleeper sites at above a C3 and anything high up in the nullsec anom offering would be instant doom. Mainly I did this for exploration. For all other purposes such a ship would be poor for both PVe and PVP. The few PVP encounters I had with it went well only because they didn't call my bluff and I managed to escape. I did a lot of sneaking around and cloaking in nullsec I could add. So in this "open world" as the game was, I would hit the WH/null exploration sites and draw off the NPCs using some very skillful speed and shield tanking along with drone fu. Then once I had them pulled off the cans and small fast threats killed, I could warp in, use my all level 5 analyze/hacking skills and run off with the loot before they could catch up. I can see the forum warriors complaining already: why, you can't do that! You have to bring friends! You need an alt! And all the other stupid forum platitudes of people who are stultified in life and bring it into the game. I did this for years, with that one ship. Never getting blown up, caught, destroyed. It even had a large rig from the days when rigs were all one size. Then... one day.... "This container cannot be opened while it is still being defended". It was over. And while it was probably in some dev blog or patch note somewhere, there was no fanfare, no chance to scream about it in any forums, no exploration CSM, no recourse. Nothing. Other changes would occur, along with the advent of some very tough SoE ships. If CCP had done that in 2009 I would have died from the most epic nerdgasm in human history. But by the time those ships were introduced... well: meh. Then came warp speed changes, making it harder to escape. Then interceptors that could escape their own bubbles (was fun not ending up in them). Then came recons that you could not find on D-scan. Then came WH changes that put you farther away from the hole, based on size. Just about everybody in the WH community hated that one. Then ultimately, came the total revamp of exploration. Turning it into just another aspect of grind/farm content. With the original probing space seemed huge but it needed a revamp when wormholes were introduced (and that murdered lowsec mission running BTW) but it was OK. Now space seems small and the exploration sites are not combat sites but we have nice ships at least. But hey there ARE some exploration sites (that I have not bothered with) that have some fighting. And you need friends, or an alt. The world is not so open. I'm in a time zone where even most of the gankers are sleeping by the time I log in. Exploration whent from being "what am I going to find today" to just more stultified, aspergian, grinding boring crap. My version of the mistake being made here is that the game has turned in the direction towards people who do everything with one eye on their wallet or their killboard but that community of people who just loved the game and playing has been given the shaft. Right now I'm playing something else. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Gogela Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance 3332	Posted - 2016.08.15 07:40:37 - [1484] - Quote Princess Adhara wrote: Posting in an "Eve is dying" thread! \o/ I am spaceship.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2164	Posted - 2016.08.15 08:18:21 - [1485] - Quote For me, I don't like following the herd, I do what I find fun, for me it was belt ratting in 0.0 and doing it with people trying to catch you. My preferred ship was the drake, 72km range great tank and ability to kite, I set up BM's around the belts in the system I was operating in and warp down to a roid then kite to a safe spot, people would come in try to get me to warp out but I would just keep blapping the rats then warp out. I would then return with a Hurricane set up with warp core stabs to salvage and would do it in from of them again. The bounties were not great but every so often I would get a faction drop, or even rarer an officer spawn. Certain players would run around after DT looking for them so you had to be quick. From the modules I gathered I would refine and make ships for PvP. I had great fun doing this in a contested system, all the tactics and the strategies were mine, I had these ideas from reading the forums and trying out stuff in lowsec before heading to Stain, I then refined then from experience, watching how others did it What changed was reprocessing, because players were taking advantage of changes to build cost CCP added additional material then to get rid of that they cut the refining in half, as I was in Stain shooting Sansha rats my standings were bad. So a massive hit. Other changes were making officers really tough so I could not take them down without something meaty, which I agree with but that nerfed my income too, though later I had the ISK for a carrier and was using that to kill them More and more people got into black ops so you had to be very careful, I had three failed attempts on me by the top FC of Stain Empire, I got a rep as being difficult to catch with them so they hardly bothered to chase me after a while. After the drake got nerfed due to 0.0 fleets using it, I had to find another ship but nothing really worked to the same degree, by this time I had a second account so went with twin Phantasm's set for PvP but when the combat recons were made to be invisible to D-scan the risk level became too much for me. Because I would carefully pick systems so I had good D-scan cover in the main, so when people undocked or jumped through even in cloaky ships I would get intel, that knowledge went with the D-scn immunity. I explained why this was an issue on EN24. The fun for me was operating in 0.0 when people were trying to catch me, sometimes I would turn on them and kill stuff, sometimes I would bait them by being passive and then just go very aggresive and blow them up, most people get lazy when you are passive with them for example one guy used to shoot me every time I undocked, so I would do it and dock and he got lazy, then I went for him and blew him up. I keep hoping that CCP will at least throw a few crumbs my way, which is why I ask for a small citadel with cloak abilities and a small capacity, so I can do this nomadic type approach in systems that are not used by greedy large entities. But no. CCP seems to have a fixation on forcing people to join large entities in sov space, I like small groups operating like this, for me its more fun. Furthermore my times of play don't fit in with the real action periods in Eve, I normally find myself playing with Aussies for example which is great but limited. So back to hisec I went, decided to do something fun in terms of little guy stuff and there I walked into the total imbalance which I refer to as hisec farming aided by the Ganking Community Manager (I would love to know what went on with the decision to allow hyperdunking.) Which has just about put the lid on my disillusionment, I actually came back because of medium citadels, I wanted to help Aaron setup in Stain by donating to him a Medium even though he hates me and uses me as a convenient excuse for his own failings, but found that the 0.0 players had got the market removed for reasons I have yet to find out. So I had a good long look at hisec and what I found shocked me, I talked to a lot of people and found the majority of people in hisec were alts of 0.0 and low sec players, I hardly found anyone that were dedicated hisec, and those that were were niche players, they find something that worked for them and avoided anything else. They keep their heads down and avoid, initially I wanted to try to set up something to develop in hisec, but the player base in hisec is so passive and so over farmed it just has no spirit for it, also many of them play Eve with the feeling that CCP hates them and their play-style, they have become totally fatalistic and are diminishing in numbers. And what is evident to me with the disappearence of the prey who realised they were just patsies due to many bad balance decisions by CCP the game is stagnating to where risk averse gankers, hot droppers and scammers will be the majority and it is sad to see. There are many good things in Eve which is why people like me keep at it, the combat system is sophicticated and fun at small to medium fleet levels, my ideal situation would be with a group of people who could get 12 together for fleets, that is just so much fun. You have to find people with the same sort of lets go for it type of attitude, but you have to avoid the people who just want a green killboard because their attitude to play is akin to dropping a black ops fleet on a single ratter, execution style with no risk. And that for me is what is killing this game most of all, that mentality. The worst thing for me is that everyone and his dog does black ops add to that the boring AFK cloaky camping and that finally just said enough is enough, when you operate in systems where all of them have a cloaky sitting in it you will know what I mean. That sort of mentality by those players is just lame, CCP needs to adjust balance to deal with player attituide, just forcing prey into 0.0 is just not going to work. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Onictus The Scope Gallente Federation 946	Posted - 2016.08.15 09:49:43 - [1486] - Quote Markus Reese wrote: Long threadnaught, so will start just from the initial impressions. So why less players? Need to look at the history of eve throughout. And that starts with the OP's concept of PLEX. PLEX doesn't affect player quantiy, specifically the price. Highest player activities were well before PLEX existed. This is untrue, the highest player levels were well after PLEX's introduction I was on the day of the highest ever player load on the servers and plex had been out for years at the time plex was running 200-300mil...and you could buy a Hurricane under 30m and a Dominix for about 85-90. PLEX hit the server in 2008 (if I remember correctly) and eves highest PCUs were between then and 2014 when it fell off a cliff. PLEX related? I don't know. I know that I run a LOT less accounts now because of the capital jump changes, they made the general aggravation of living in null not worth the energy, so my two "main" accounts are active, there are about 5 farmers, marketers, and cyno/cloaker alts that I have no current plans in reactivating. In the circles I moved in, 3 accounts was likely average, a lot of people used to run a LOT of toons for various functions....and that was partly facilitated by the fact that a couple good rated DED sites could fund four accounts for a quarter.
Moac Tor Cyber Core Stain Confederation 641	Posted - 2016.08.15 11:08:51 - [1487] - Quote Onictus wrote: Markus Reese wrote: Long threadnaught, so will start just from the initial impressions. So why less players? Need to look at the history of eve throughout. And that starts with the OP's concept of PLEX. PLEX doesn't affect player quantiy, specifically the price. Highest player activities were well before PLEX existed. This is untrue, the highest player levels were well after PLEX's introduction I was on the day of the highest ever player load on the servers and plex had been out for years at the time plex was running 200-300mil...and you could buy a Hurricane under 30m and a Dominix for about 85-90. PLEX hit the server in 2008 (if I remember correctly) and eves highest PCUs were between then and 2014 when it fell off a cliff. PLEX related? I don't know. I know that I run a LOT less accounts now because of the capital jump changes, they made the general aggravation of living in null not worth the energy, so my two "main" accounts are active, there are about 5 farmers, marketers, and cyno/cloaker alts that I have no current plans in reactivating. In the circles I moved in, 3 accounts was likely average, a lot of people used to run a LOT of toons for various functions....and that was partly facilitated by the fact that a couple good rated DED sites could fund four accounts for a quarter. Max PCU was around mid 2012 if I recall correctly. The differences IMO between now and then was that Eve was at the height of it's complexity back then with new feature upon new feature being added. This was seen as a problem though as there were a lot of features which were left for years without update as development time was being used bringing out new features. There was a big drive to streamline things and remove needless complexity, and this was around the time when tiericide was first envisioned. Although reiterating on some of the old features was much needed back then, CCP went a little crazy with their new vision for a simplified and more user friendly eve. Their drive to 'remove needless complexity' and to streamline everything is probably what is killing player numbers more than anything right now IMO. Eve is a game in which the players love to play around with mechanics and found ways to do things that others had never thought of. They are not the type of players that like cookie cutter theme park rides. Herzog's story of the exploration cyclone is familiar to me and is definitely a relic of the old eve, and I think part of what made the game really enjoyable back then. Modulated ECM Effects An Alternative to Skill Trading
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5783	Posted - 2016.08.15 11:30:10 - [1488] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Exploration whent from being "what am I going to find today" to just more stultified, aspergian, grinding boring crap. My version of the mistake being made here is that the game has turned in the direction towards people who do everything with one eye on their wallet or their killboard but that community of people who just loved the game and playing has been given the shaft. Right now I'm playing something else. Truer words cannot be spoken. Only PvE I found worth doing in EvE, were sleepers and - most of all - exploration. Now it's farmable crap, no skill needed. Right now I am playing another game too, where exploration of the ultra-massively huge, unknown galaxy brings me back EvE memories... EvE Online portal \| EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5784	Posted - 2016.08.15 11:40:03 - [1489] - Quote The problem is this: you can't market a scary, complex, ruthless dystopian universe with great success for a decade, and then wear some $1000 jeans and make it a shallow, pale, idiot-friendly ghost of its former self. Maybe by keeping EvE "true" to its mission, players would bleed anyway, because we are witnessing an epocal shift towards simpleton oriented, huge expendable playerbase free to play stuff. But by making EvE a "stuck in the middle" game deluding old-timers while stiff not attracting enough simpletons, is going to get the bad of both decisions. EvE Online portal \| EvE markets tutorials
Nitshe Razvedka 1118	Posted - 2016.08.15 14:21:07 - [1490] - Quote Code is the cancer on Eve. Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS. Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
Caco De'mon New Order Logistics CODE. 33	Posted - 2016.08.15 14:28:34 - [1491] - Quote Nitshe Razvedka wrote: Code is the cancer on Eve. Yes yes, you want to mine your PLEX and have to look away from Barney on YouTube...we get it. *"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14428	Posted - 2016.08.15 14:31:21 - [1492] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Exploration whent from being "what am I going to find today" to just more stultified, aspergian, grinding boring crap. My version of the mistake being made here is that the game has turned in the direction towards people who do everything with one eye on their wallet or their killboard but that community of people who just loved the game and playing has been given the shaft. Right now I'm playing something else. Truer words cannot be spoken. Only PvE I found worth doing in EvE, were sleepers and - most of all - exploration. Now it's farmable crap, no skill needed. Right now I am playing another game too, where exploration of the ultra-massively huge, unknown galaxy brings me back EvE memories... Explorers are only a small piece of the PVE pie. Not everyone who PVE's does so for the excitement of the unknown, rather many of us do pve because we like 'engineering challenges'. I never cared for exploration, but figuring out new ways to do missions and anomalies and complexes. And look at Dotlan for npc kills (and the missions and complexes forum), there are a LOT of folks like me. When it comes to PVE, CCP has actually spent way too much time trying to appease the PVE Explorers (all the changes to scanning and data/reclic sites and modules and ships etc etc) while only throwing an occasional bone at PVE Engineers (Burner Missions and NPC capital spawns are about it lately). As for the post you were replying too, that's just more of Herzog's bias showing, the game has moved away from people who love playing the game for it's own sake and more towards the "can I catch up to other players" ("why yes you can, with skill injectors) standard mmo crap.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14428	Posted - 2016.08.15 14:34:15 - [1493] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: The problem is this: you can't market a scary, complex, ruthless dystopian universe with great success for a decade, and then wear some $1000 jeans and make it a shallow, pale, idiot-friendly ghost of its former self. Maybe by keeping EvE "true" to its mission, players would bleed anyway, because we are witnessing an epocal shift towards simpleton oriented, huge expendable playerbase free to play stuff. And also, towards a "press F1 in 1k fleet" brainless sheep. But by making EvE a "stuck in the middle" game deluding old-timers while still not attracting enough simpletons, is going to get the bad of both decisions. This I can agree with. Well, All but the F1 nonsense, Fleet fights aren't about individual skill, they are about cooperation and participating in something epic, the only people who complain about 'f1 monkeys' are solo pvp'rs who think they are special lol.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2172	Posted - 2016.08.15 15:33:44 - [1494] - Quote Caco De'mon wrote: Nitshe Razvedka wrote: Code is the cancer on Eve. Yes yes, you want to mine your PLEX and have to look away from Barney on YouTube...we get it. Actually I am writing a book please come and gank me. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 127	Posted - 2016.08.15 17:55:49 - [1495] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Exploration whent from being "what am I going to find today" to just more stultified, aspergian, grinding boring crap. My version of the mistake being made here is that the game has turned in the direction towards people who do everything with one eye on their wallet or their killboard but that community of people who just loved the game and playing has been given the shaft. Right now I'm playing something else. Truer words cannot be spoken. Only PvE I found worth doing in EvE, were sleepers and - most of all - exploration. Now it's farmable crap, no skill needed. Right now I am playing another game too, where exploration of the ultra-massively huge, unknown galaxy brings me back EvE memories... Explorers are only a small piece of the PVE pie. Not everyone who PVE's does so for the excitement of the unknown, rather many of us do pve because we like 'engineering challenges'. I never cared for exploration, but figuring out new ways to do missions and anomalies and complexes. And look at Dotlan for npc kills (and the missions and complexes forum), there are a LOT of folks like me. When it comes to PVE, CCP has actually spent way too much time trying to appease the PVE Explorers (all the changes to scanning and data/reclic sites and modules and ships etc etc) while only throwing an occasional bone at PVE Engineers (Burner Missions and NPC capital spawns are about it lately). As for the post you were replying too, that's just more of Herzog's bias showing, the game has moved away from people who love playing the game for it's own sake and more towards the "can I catch up to other players" ("why yes you can, with skill injectors) standard mmo crap. I think the point was that the changes to simplify exploration were largely unwelcome to the true explorers.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 517	Posted - 2016.08.15 18:12:24 - [1496] - Quote Explorers: The only group in EVE who are actually angry that CCP made what they do easier I mean, I understand why, I really do. I'm not saying you are wrong to be angry. I'd be angry too, if I were an explorer... But it is kind of funny, if you think about it...
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14429	Posted - 2016.08.15 18:31:12 - [1497] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: I think the point was that the changes to simplify exploration were largely unwelcome to the true explorers. That's true, just like CCPs tinkering with other forms of PVE (Seagull mentioned something about PVE on the o7 show and it made me cringe) will probably have the same result. Like I always say, there is a reason most of us who do combat style PVE (missions, complexes, anomalies) in this game are doing that rather than trying to kill drifters of sleepers or whatever. Sometimes CCP demonstrates understanding of this (Burner missions are the best example, they even said they are 'engineering challenges') and sometimes they don't (Drifter Incursions anyone, ow wait, you can't). Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Explorers: The only group in EVE who are actually angry that CCP made what they do easier I mean, I understand why, I really do. I'm not saying you are wrong to be angry. I'd be angry too, if I were an explorer... But it is kind of funny, if you think about it... It's kind of funny, till you realize it was CCP catering to a vocal minority of lazy as hell explorers who constantly whined about exploration being to hard from 2007 to 2012. IMO it's like how miners begged for years for buffs to barges (and the removal of insurance payouts for gankers), got those buffs, then experienced even more ganks lol. Same with wardecs, fix wardecs, end up with blanket wardecs. It would be the same if ccp 'fixed' cloaky camping, the result would be way more hot drops, not less. The moral of the story for all these complainers and beggars is this : Be careful what you ask CCP for, *they just might give it to you*...
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7927	Posted - 2016.08.15 19:16:28 - [1498] - Quote Nitshe Razvedka wrote: Code is the cancer on Eve. I agree with this comment but not for the reasons that would exist in a void (no pun intended). CODE. is cancer. Yes. (and given how serious the disease is, I'm not too eager to compare other things to cancer, but it's not generally malice these days, it's still raises a flag in my head for having seen what cancer does to a person and a family - but I'm not going the political correctness route on this, it's just slang and not being a millennial I can brush such "issues" aside and press on) But..... When cancer happens to a person, having been around it, there's a tendency to notice some patterns to the occurrence. That is, RL cancer happens to everybody every day, and our bodies kill it. It's when the body cannot kill it that a person gets cancer. Western medicine kind of misses the point acting like it was bad luck or something. But here is why CODE is cancer based on my paragraph above: We look at the cancer and fail to see the environment or conditions that cause it So CODE. is cancer not because CODE is CODE but because of the environment that we have reached in the game that helped it become a cancer. AWOXing had some kind of nerf, but "Safaris" were common in the past. Ganking has always been a thing. Scamming as well. Wardecs too. Notice that as Eve Online has headed down the path towards what we have today that something like CODE. becomes "a thing"? They are not doing anything different than what people have done before. Freighters were always getting ganked. Miners too. All CODE. has done was market an Orca-load of butthurt around it. Once upon a time CODE would have never been a thing, just like a healthy body does not get cancer. Thus to blame CODE for existing at all would be to miss the mark. We need to, like in cancer prevention and early treatment, find and correct the environment that fosters it. The rise of CODE. is a symptom of the decline of Eve just like cancer is the end result of (in most cases) un-treated persistent inflammation. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7927	Posted - 2016.08.15 19:19:55 - [1499] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Exploration whent from being "what am I going to find today" to just more stultified, aspergian, grinding boring crap. My version of the mistake being made here is that the game has turned in the direction towards people who do everything with one eye on their wallet or their killboard but that community of people who just loved the game and playing has been given the shaft. Right now I'm playing something else. Truer words cannot be spoken. Only PvE I found worth doing in EvE, were sleepers and - most of all - exploration. Now it's farmable crap, no skill needed. Right now I am playing another game too, where exploration of the ultra-massively huge, unknown galaxy brings me back EvE memories... I too am thinking of going there... my only fear is that it looks like "Ark in space" and Ark never interested me. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14430	Posted - 2016.08.15 19:47:30 - [1500] - Quote Herzog confuses the symptom with the disease. CODE is the symptom. The disease is/was CCP zeal to expand EVE Online. Of course Ganking occurred in the past. And I am by no means saying that people were smarter or more attentive in the past, this is not rose colored glasses thinking. But EVE has always been a game that turned off most who tried it, and as CCP went down the "easy to learn, hard to master" BS route of simplifying the game and 'lowering it's barriers', an odd thing happened. That odd thing was that more and more people who wouldn't have chosen the original EVE stuck around for a bit longer, mainly between 2009 and 2013. And they mainly stayed in high sec, and they mainly had a 'traditional mmo' mindset of "play this MMO like it's just a single player game, but with other people around". A the gankers saw their prey (ie emotionally volatile traditional MMO players who stick to high sec and don't really have the general predisposition to survive being screwed with) sprouting up like rabbits in a wheatfield. Add to that some misguided "tweaks" and "balance passes" from CCP aimed directly at gankers (who are prickly types that take things like that like provocations rather than admonitions) and Viola! you just made the conditions for something like CODE to happen. I wish I could talk real world stuff here, because there are thousands of historical corollaries in the real world. CCP softening up the game to get more people created a situation where awful bad guys (who prey on the soft) could exist. People who know world events know what I mean lol. Ironic isn't it, if CCP hadn't lowered barriers to get more people, we wouldn't even be discussing this
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5790	Posted - 2016.08.15 20:11:05 - [1501] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: The problem is this: you can't market a scary, complex, ruthless dystopian universe with great success for a decade, and then wear some $1000 jeans and make it a shallow, pale, idiot-friendly ghost of its former self. Maybe by keeping EvE "true" to its mission, players would bleed anyway, because we are witnessing an epocal shift towards simpleton oriented, huge expendable playerbase free to play stuff. And also, towards a "press F1 in 1k fleet" brainless sheep. But by making EvE a "stuck in the middle" game deluding old-timers while still not attracting enough simpletons, is going to get the bad of both decisions. This I can agree with. Well, All but the F1 nonsense, Fleet fights aren't about individual skill, they are about cooperation and participating in something epic, the only people who complain about 'f1 monkeys' are solo pvp'rs who think they are special lol. No, really. Fleets are also those made by a 5-12 guys, they are the most fun and, for sure, you can't get away with them just by spamming F1. I am very subjective on this, for my own self, below 20-30 guys it's still "fleet", above that it's "blob". I hate blobs and mob mentality in general. I repeat, it's subjective of me. However, since I care about my opinion(!), I am not going to pour time or money on something that rewards blobs far more than "interactive" PvP. EvE Online portal \| EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5793	Posted - 2016.08.15 20:14:27 - [1502] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Explorers: The only group in EVE who are actually angry that CCP made what they do easier I mean, I understand why, I really do. I'm not saying you are wrong to be angry. I'd be angry too, if I were an explorer... But it is kind of funny, if you think about it... Well, it'd be the same if you built a nice highway to the top of Mount Everest. Sure, Average Joe would be happy, he'd bring his son, wife and dog and have a nice pic-nic. However, mountain climbers would throw a fit: one of the biggest challenges, a sort of ritual of initiation, has just been destroyed. EvE Online portal \| EvE markets tutorials
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17866	Posted - 2016.08.15 20:25:17 - [1503] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Explorers: The only group in EVE who are actually angry that CCP made what they do easier I mean, I understand why, I really do. I'm not saying you are wrong to be angry. I'd be angry too, if I were an explorer... But it is kind of funny, if you think about it... Well, it'd be the same if you built a nice highway to the top of Mount Everest. Sure, Average Joe would be happy, he'd bring his son, wife and dog and have a nice pic-nic. However, mountain climbers would throw a fit: one of the biggest challenges, a sort of ritual of initiation, has just been destroyed. I have to agree that scanning and probing were better when it was an actual challange. Good probers were a valued asset.
sero Hita Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 192	Posted - 2016.08.15 20:57:27 - [1504] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: No, really. Fleets are also those made by a 5-12 guys, they are the most fun and, for sure, you can't get away with them just by spamming F1. I am very subjective on this, for my own self, below 20-30 guys it's still "fleet", above that it's "blob". I hate blobs and mob mentality in general. I repeat, it's subjective of me. However, since I care about my opinion(!), I am not going to pour time or money on something that rewards blobs far more than "interactive" PvP. Your very subjective and simplistic opinions, make you look very simpleminded IMO and deevalutes the impression you deliever making your point harder to take serious. For example consider that some people might enjoy occationally the social chatter on coms, not everything is about skill. I have been in bigger fleets with some fantastic solo PvPers who likes to fleet up, does that make them F1 monkeys with mob mentality? Logi and Support roles can be very demanding in bigger fleets and require good skills. I also think people often misunderstand blobs... Nobody in my experience (mostly lowsec FW) makes a 40 man fleet to kill you in your solo pwn mobile. They do it to fight samesized fleets. The occational passing neutral will be shot to keep up morale as not getting any action will make people logoff. It is not that they could not solo you, it is that they are being social and looking for a challenging fleet to kill together with friends. TLDR. Consider not writing something so full of prejudice, derailing the thread when you have clearly not really thought about the different motives people could have for joining bigger fleets. "I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
Nitshe Razvedka 1122	Posted - 2016.08.15 22:02:13 - [1505] - Quote Code spews cancer on the game til nothing lives. Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS. Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
Nitshe Razvedka 1122	Posted - 2016.08.15 22:04:23 - [1506] - Quote typical of this generation of junkie degenerate slackers who want to take but not contribute Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS. Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 748	Posted - 2016.08.15 22:05:31 - [1507] - Quote Nitshe Razvedka wrote: typical of this generation of junkie degenerate slackers who want to take but not contribute Which generation are you then?
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 140	Posted - 2016.08.15 22:19:42 - [1508] - Quote Nitshe Razvedka wrote: typical of this generation of junkie degenerate slackers who want to take but not contribute So what is a largely solo playstyle miner that is AFK for a majority of the time contributing?
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17877	Posted - 2016.08.15 22:30:50 - [1509] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Nitshe Razvedka wrote: typical of this generation of junkie degenerate slackers who want to take but not contribute So what is a largely solo playstyle miner that is AFK for a majority of the time contributing? Crushed rocks of varying size.
Jacques d'Orleans Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 2808	Posted - 2016.08.15 22:43:56 - [1510] - Quote Nitshe Razvedka wrote: typical of this generation of junkie degenerate slackers who want to take but not contribute No need to be so overly self-critical. The beginning of the End Never drink anything that only gets a lukewarm recommendation from an Australian infantryman!
Maraner The Executioners Shadow Cartel 358	Posted - 2016.08.15 22:53:20 - [1511] - Quote How is it that we can routinely have these large threads that rack up thousands of view and posts without a Dev commenting. I suppose there is nothing in it for them, are they going to sit and argue that the game is not in trouble? Would be refreshing at least.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7929	Posted - 2016.08.15 23:31:14 - [1512] - Quote Maraner wrote: How is it that we can routinely have these large threads that rack up thousands of view and posts without a Dev commenting. I suppose there is nothing in it for them, are they going to sit and argue that the game is not in trouble? Would be refreshing at least. They are on Reddit. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Caco De'mon New Order Logistics CODE. 38	Posted - 2016.08.16 00:04:16 - [1513] - Quote Nitshe Razvedka wrote: Code spews cancer on the game til nothing lives. Well luckily they have you to defend them...oh what's that? You do absolutely F*k all to this so called cancer? What was that you said about this generation of junkie degenerate slackers who want to take but not contribute nothing? Was that self analysis? "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."
Onictus The Scope Gallente Federation 947	Posted - 2016.08.16 01:26:47 - [1514] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: The problem is this: you can't market a scary, complex, ruthless dystopian universe with great success for a decade, and then wear some $1000 jeans and make it a shallow, pale, idiot-friendly ghost of its former self. Maybe by keeping EvE "true" to its mission, players would bleed anyway, because we are witnessing an epocal shift towards simpleton oriented, huge expendable playerbase free to play stuff. And also, towards a "press F1 in 1k fleet" brainless sheep. But by making EvE a "stuck in the middle" game deluding old-timers while still not attracting enough simpletons, is going to get the bad of both decisions. This I can agree with. Well, All but the F1 nonsense, Fleet fights aren't about individual skill, they are about cooperation and participating in something epic, the only people who complain about 'f1 monkeys' are solo pvp'rs who think they are special lol. No, really. Fleets are also those made by a 5-12 guys, they are the most fun and, for sure, you can't get away with them just by spamming F1. I am very subjective on this, for my own self, below 20-30 guys it's still "fleet", above that it's "blob". I hate blobs and mob mentality in general. I repeat, it's subjective of me. However, since I care about my opinion(!), I am not going to pour time or money on something that rewards blobs far more than "interactive" PvP. So toss most of the fleet PvP in the game because it doesn't match your arbitrary definition. You want interactive in "the blob? fly a logi or a tackle, its the EXACT same thing as smaller ganks in low, but with sharks in the water. Bonus points for dual boxing a logi and a DPS ship.
Gneeznow Ship spinners inc 146	Posted - 2016.08.16 04:01:15 - [1515] - Quote The forums here are also a ghost town compared to the 2006-2012 era. I think it all happens on reddit now including dev responses to most issues and I can't bring myself to browse the eve subreddit it's cringe worthy (even more so than these forums these days). As someone who has played since 2006, I think eve really is dying this time. It'll be free to play inside 2 years if not sooner. It feels like the reanimated corpse of a once great game tbh.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7938	Posted - 2016.08.16 05:29:23 - [1516] - Quote Gneeznow wrote: The forums here are also a ghost town compared to the 2006-2012 era. I think it all happens on reddit now including dev responses to most issues and I can't bring myself to browse the eve subreddit it's cringe worthy (even more so than these forums these days). As someone who has played since 2006, I think eve really is dying this time. It'll be free to play inside 2 years if not sooner. It feels like the reanimated corpse of a once great game tbh. I asked a question about a feature on Reddit (I don't use my own handle there) and got a reply from a dev in 7 hours. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Nitshe Razvedka 1132	Posted - 2016.08.16 05:49:47 - [1517] - Quote We need to step back from ongoing petty squabbles people, and look to the big picture. We need to make Empire Great Again. For too long we have let Hillary types along with anarchists, 'progressives', codies and members of ISIS run amuck in our beloved EVE. For those who love; freedom, liberty, bacon, the smell of bacon cooking and Bald Eagles, the time is now to push back and reclaim our Eve. We need strong and decisive leadership on this issue. We need a Donald to give Eve a good enema. Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS. Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
Caco De'mon New Order Logistics CODE. 40	Posted - 2016.08.16 06:02:36 - [1518] - Quote Nitshe Razvedka wrote: For those who love; freedom, liberty, bacon, the smell of bacon cooking and Bald Eagles, the time is now to push back and reclaim our Eve. Freedom to do what I want? Check Liberty? Check Bald Eagle bacon? Check See, we're really the same. *"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 97	Posted - 2016.08.16 06:17:54 - [1519] - Quote eve is dying....maybe... did any of you give a look to the 07 Show yesterday? I did and I almost died of boredom. After a intro where they said they are back from holiday ( we noticed it ) they showed some amazing (sigh) new skins, a presentation from the executive producer that increased my boredom quite much, the presentation of new mining ships look (sigh again, eve mining is the most boredom playgame activity existing) and so on... the only funny part was a teenager in his bedroom ( no, well he probably lives there, down the bed and in front of pc then back to bed at night everyday ) that makes amazing ( and I am not criticizing here, they are really funny ) videos on youtube...
Nitshe Razvedka 1135	Posted - 2016.08.16 06:29:21 - [1520] - Quote #baconmatters Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS. Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5795	Posted - 2016.08.16 07:15:12 - [1521] - Quote Onictus wrote: So toss most of the fleet PvP in the game because it doesn't match your arbitrary definition. You want interactive in "the blob? fly a logi or a tackle, its the EXACT same thing as smaller ganks in low, but with sharks in the water. Bonus points for dual boxing a logi and a DPS ship. I have clearly indicated, twice, how that's my personal opinion. Personal opinion is not "WHAA I want EvE changed NAO!" Besides that, I have played Tackle (I hate logi with a passion due to... experiences I had in 2005) in blobs, and it was hugely less fun than playing tackle in small scale. Yes, two of my accounts have been in a big alliance, so I had all the chances to learn what blobbing and structure bashing at 3am is about. EvE Online portal \| EvE markets tutorials
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7939	Posted - 2016.08.16 07:57:50 - [1522] - Quote Nitshe Razvedka wrote: We need to step back from ongoing petty squabbles people, and look to the big picture. We need to make Empire Great Again. For too long we have let Hillary types along with anarchists, 'progressives', codies and members of ISIS run amuck in our beloved EVE. For those who love; freedom, liberty, bacon, the smell of bacon cooking and Bald Eagles, the time is now to push back and reclaim our Eve. We need strong and decisive leadership on this issue. We need a Donald to give Eve a good enema. Are we smelling the bacon and cooking the bald eagles or the other way around? 'Merica! Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 528	Posted - 2016.08.16 10:34:59 - [1523] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Nitshe Razvedka wrote: We need to step back from ongoing petty squabbles people, and look to the big picture. We need to make Empire Great Again. For too long we have let Hillary types along with anarchists, 'progressives', codies and members of ISIS run amuck in our beloved EVE. For those who love; freedom, liberty, bacon, the smell of bacon cooking and Bald Eagles, the time is now to push back and reclaim our Eve. We need strong and decisive leadership on this issue. We need a Donald to give Eve a good enema. Are we smelling the bacon and cooking the bald eagles or the other way around? 'Merica! Smell the bald eagle bacon - it is delicious.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14434	Posted - 2016.08.16 12:30:55 - [1524] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Onictus wrote: So toss most of the fleet PvP in the game because it doesn't match your arbitrary definition. You want interactive in "the blob? fly a logi or a tackle, its the EXACT same thing as smaller ganks in low, but with sharks in the water. Bonus points for dual boxing a logi and a DPS ship. I have clearly indicated, twice, how that's my personal opinion. Personal opinion is not "WHAA I want EvE changed NAO!" Besides that, I have played Tackle (I hate logi with a passion due to... experiences I had in 2005) in blobs, and it was hugely less fun than playing tackle in small scale. Yes, two of my accounts have been in a big alliance, so I had all the chances to learn what blobbing and structure bashing at 3am is about. Opinion is based on personal preference. You seem the type that likes the action part of flying spaceships. Nothing wrong with that (except the fact that you can't help but be insulting about fleet pvp and the people who like it). I feel the same way about small gang and solo pvp, it's not for me, the only time I roam is when my corp wants to get together and screw around, I don't personally seek it out, because I don't play this game to explode ship and make other people cry. When i pvp I am either defending my side's ratting/industrial space and activities (ie killing neutrals in our space so my bros can get back to farming) or participating in fleet pvp that will serve some group goal (taking space for us to use, denying space to someone else, keeping Goons in their place whatever lol. If i took your way of communicating about things I'd call small gang pvp "organized circle jerking with no point at all" lol . But I don't I simply understand that different people have different tastes. I think you should remember that.
Nitshe Razvedka 1156	Posted - 2016.08.16 15:28:37 - [1525] - Quote #southernfriedeaglenbaconmatters Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS. Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5797	Posted - 2016.08.16 16:14:46 - [1526] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: ve been in a big alliance, so I had all the chances to learn what blobbing and structure bashing at 3am is about. Opinion is based on personal preference. You seem the type that likes the action part of flying spaceships. Nothing wrong with that (except the fact that you can't help but be insulting about fleet pvp and the people who like it). I feel the same way about small gang and solo pvp, it's not for me, the only time I roam is when my corp wants to get together and screw around, I don't personally seek it out, because I don't play this game to explode ship and make other people cry. When i pvp I am either defending my side's ratting/industrial space and activities (ie killing neutrals in our space so my bros can get back to farming) or participating in fleet pvp that will serve some group goal (taking space for us to use, denying space to someone else, keeping Goons in their place whatever lol. If i took your way of communicating about things I'd call small gang pvp "organized circle jerking with no point at all" lol . But I don't I simply understand that different people have different tastes. I think you should remember that. I don't think calling "blob" a blob is an insult. Also, F1 spamming is not derogatory, is... a mechanic when you get to be one small cog in a big machine. Of course that does not lead exactly to skillful gameplay. If anything, big fleets require very good strategists, I concede that. Having played so many MMOs, I have come from an hardcore background, where every individual counts. Imo other games valorized individual skill in a large group more than EvE does. I used to be in a top 10 first boss kills worldwide guild in another game, when new content came we all played together for 11-14h a day and to get first every individual single ability used (at the right time) counted. To the point, we recorded attempts from multiple players and the leaders would check second by second if everyone exactly did the absolute possible best in each second. In EvE you can sort-of do the same, by going 12 vs 30 and similar and still take them out. I couldn't get the same adrenaline, the same feeling of accomplishment, when it was 1k vs 1k and all you could do was to enjoy lag and random hits coming for a random amount of time from a random opponent. EvE Online portal \| EvE markets tutorials
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 535	Posted - 2016.08.16 16:26:57 - [1527] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: ve been in a big alliance, so I had all the chances to learn what blobbing and structure bashing at 3am is about. Opinion is based on personal preference. You seem the type that likes the action part of flying spaceships. Nothing wrong with that (except the fact that you can't help but be insulting about fleet pvp and the people who like it). I feel the same way about small gang and solo pvp, it's not for me, the only time I roam is when my corp wants to get together and screw around, I don't personally seek it out, because I don't play this game to explode ship and make other people cry. When i pvp I am either defending my side's ratting/industrial space and activities (ie killing neutrals in our space so my bros can get back to farming) or participating in fleet pvp that will serve some group goal (taking space for us to use, denying space to someone else, keeping Goons in their place whatever lol. If i took your way of communicating about things I'd call small gang pvp "organized circle jerking with no point at all" lol . But I don't I simply understand that different people have different tastes. I think you should remember that. I don't think calling "blob" a blob is an insult. Also, F1 spamming is not derogatory, is... a mechanic when you get to be one small cog in a big machine. Of course that does not lead exactly to skillful gameplay. If anything, big fleets require very good strategists, I concede that. Having played so many MMOs, I have come from an hardcore background, where every individual counts. Imo other games valorized individual skill in a large group more than EvE does. I used to be in a top 10 first boss kills worldwide guild in another game, when new content came we all played together for 11-14h a day and to get first every individual single ability used (at the right time) counted. To the point, we recorded attempts from multiple players and the leaders would check second by second if everyone exactly did the absolute possible best in each second. In EvE you can sort-of do the same, by going 12 vs 30 and similar and still take them out. I couldn't get the same adrenaline, the same feeling of accomplishment, when it was 1k vs 1k and all you could do was to enjoy lag and random hits coming for a random amount of time from a random opponent. To be fair the blob-fights are a bit more controlled now with time dilation rather than lag - though still long-drawn-out affairs and still fairly impersonal for the most part.
Darek Castigatus Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel 736	Posted - 2016.08.17 14:10:21 - [1528] - Quote Maraner wrote: How is it that we can routinely have these large threads that rack up thousands of view and posts without a Dev commenting. I suppose there is nothing in it for them, are they going to sit and argue that the game is not in trouble? Would be refreshing at least. Because its the same old arguement rehashed for the god knows how many number of times, nothing but people saying the same things over and over again and having the same fights about viewpoints and who sees what as what. In all seriousness I've seen this thread over and over again on these forums for almost eight years and there's never anything new in it, just tired old statements and arguments so familiar i could write a script for them if I could be bothered. Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin you're welcome
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14436	Posted - 2016.08.17 14:45:02 - [1529] - Quote Darek Castigatus wrote: Maraner wrote: How is it that we can routinely have these large threads that rack up thousands of view and posts without a Dev commenting. I suppose there is nothing in it for them, are they going to sit and argue that the game is not in trouble? Would be refreshing at least. Because its the same old arguement rehashed for the god knows how many number of times, nothing but people saying the same things over and over again and having the same fights about viewpoints and who sees what as what. In all seriousness I've seen this thread over and over again on these forums for almost eight years and there's never anything new in it, just tired old statements and arguments so familiar i could write a script for them if I could be bothered. Yea, it's like the U.N. where diplomats say the exact same words over and over and over again for years. As for the DEVs, I'd bet they don't comment in these kinds of threads because they don't want to be misconstrued. Anything they say is going to anger someone, so it's best to say nothing. Some people don't understand what this place is. It's a debate club, which is a polite way of saying "philosophical circle jerk". Many people post here because they think it's some kind of lever to use to get the DEVs to change the game. It ain't , at this point CCP is just letting people blow off steam on these "official forums" while they go about doing what they are going to do anyway. (Ironic side note, the same people that can't hack it in game because they don't understand the nature of the game they choose to play are the same people who don't understand what this collection of forums are, so they are double frustrated due to their own ignorance). If anyone wants to interact with the developers, twitter and reddit are better places to do so.
Solecist Project 32191	Posted - 2016.08.17 14:58:13 - [1530] - Quote I, for one, don't want any devs to post in my threads. :P "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14436	Posted - 2016.08.17 15:04:33 - [1531] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: I don't think calling "blob" a blob is an insult. Also, F1 spamming is not derogatory, is... a mechanic when you get to be one small cog in a big machine. Of course that does not lead exactly to skillful gameplay. If anything, big fleets require very good strategists, I concede that. This above demonstrates the reason for the disconnect (and also proably why you don't see the word blob as derogatory). You seem one of those game players that is concerned with displaying "skill". Most players in most games I have played who talk about "skill" tend to be the type that don't understand that not everyone values the same things the same way. You play to display skill (and maybe a 'rush'). I play to achieve PLEASING RESULTS. I'll explain using your own quote. Quote: In EvE you can sort-of do the same, by going 12 vs 30 and similar and still take them out. I couldn't get the same adrenaline, the same feeling of accomplishment, when it was 1k vs 1k and all you could do was to enjoy lag and random hits coming for a random amount of time from a random opponent. Fleet Fighters (the people you derogatorily call "blobbers" and "F1 spammers") tend to not care about that kind of action. When I'm in a fleet I'm not looking for 'gudfights', I'm fighting to preserve my ratting space and the ratting/mining/industrial space of my friends and alliance mates (or take new space that we can then install other friends in). The in game proceeds from ratting let me plex my 4 accounts without using my cash. Because we do this and thus maintain space to make isk in, these last few months I've been able to use plex. my income is good but I have real life goals and a 19 year old in college so my wife and I stick to a set budget. I budget money every month to pay for EVE subscriptions in case i can't rat for some reason (like last month because of the madness that affected my city and my employer I don't get to play for almost 2 weeks because of all the mandatory overtime I had to work). When I make enough isk to plex, I get to take that actual cash and do something else with it., like this last weekend when I spent that 60 bucks to take my wife, my daughter and her fiancee to the movies and to a buffet. Knowing that my in game activities has a real impact in game (i and my friends have space) and out of game (went to a movie and stuffed myself at a buffet because I could plex to pay for EVE) is pleasing to me. So from my point of view your 12 v 30 epic adrenaline rush fight is a worthless act of masturbatory self congratulation, where as they way I play is beneficial in multiple ways. The difference here is that I understand that you aren't like me so different things float your boat. This is why I don't feel the need to use derogatory terms about solo and small gang types, whereas you do the opposite.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 545	Posted - 2016.08.17 15:17:14 - [1532] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Fleet Fighters (the people you derogatorily call "blobbers" and "F1 spammers") tend to not care about that kind of action. When I'm in a fleet I'm not looking for 'gudfights', I'm fighting to preserve my ratting space and the ratting/mining/industrial space of my friends and alliance mates (or take new space that we can then install other friends in). The in game proceeds from ratting let me plex my 4 accounts without using my cash. While this is true of many 0.0 residents - there are true "F1 Monkeys" that tend to give the rest of you a bad name. These are the players who don't care about the territory or the opportunities it affords - they literally only play to participate in giant fleets and press their F1 key when told to do so. What they get out of this is impressive looking killboards and bragging rights - even when such fleets lose the only way to get a bad-looking killboard from it is if you are the first to die. In addition to paying a subscription fee - these players end up buying PLEX to sell for isk to buy more ships just to participate in these fleets - because they have no in-game income. The blob-fights are literally all they do. I 100% know these players exist - because I'm at work right now, and I am literally 3 feet away from one of them. It is a play-style like any other....as long as they enjoy it it is their decision how to play v0v As for how common they are - there is no way to prove that...but they've seemed fairly prevalent in most 0.0 groups I've been a part of (admittedly I wasn't in very good 0.0 alliances)... But these are the players that I think of at least when referring to "blobbers" or "F1 Monkeys", etc - and they really do exist, they aren't a myth
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14438	Posted - 2016.08.17 15:37:21 - [1533] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Fleet Fighters (the people you derogatorily call "blobbers" and "F1 spammers") tend to not care about that kind of action. When I'm in a fleet I'm not looking for 'gudfights', I'm fighting to preserve my ratting space and the ratting/mining/industrial space of my friends and alliance mates (or take new space that we can then install other friends in). The in game proceeds from ratting let me plex my 4 accounts without using my cash. While this is true of many 0.0 residents - there are true "F1 Monkeys" that tend to give the rest of you a bad name. These are the players who don't care about the territory or the opportunities it affords - they literally only play to participate in giant fleets and press their F1 key when told to do so. What they get out of this is impressive looking killboards and bragging rights - even when such fleets lose the only way to get a bad-looking killboard from it is if you are the first to die. In addition to paying a subscription fee - these players end up buying PLEX to sell for isk to buy more ships just to participate in these fleets - because they have no in-game income. The blob-fights are literally all they do. I 100% know these players exist - because I'm at work right now, and I am literally 3 feet away from one of them. It is a play-style like any other....as long as they enjoy it it is their decision how to play v0v As for how common they are - there is no way to prove that...but they've seemed fairly prevalent in most 0.0 groups I've been a part of (admittedly I wasn't in very good 0.0 alliances)... But these are the players that I think of at least when referring to "blobbers" or "F1 Monkeys", etc - and they really do exist, they aren't a myth The question that popped into my head reading this is "ok, and?" There are people who mine just to watch ore fill their holds. There are people who ship spin and do literally nothing else. What does that have to do you you or me or anyone else? It's not your cash their are spending to sub.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 545	Posted - 2016.08.17 15:50:14 - [1534] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: The question that popped into my head reading this is "ok, and?" There are people who mine just to watch ore fill their holds. There are people who ship spin and do literally nothing else. What does that have to do you you or me or anyone else? It's not your cash their are spending to sub. As I said - they can play that way if they want, I have no particular problem with it. But when I say "F1 Monkey" or something like that - I'm talking about them. 9 times out of 10 people like you assume I'm talking about you and jump in to defend yourselves, saying you aren't F1 monkeys.... But at least for myself, I'm not talking about players like you... That is all
Nicolai Serkanner Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective 520	Posted - 2016.08.17 16:52:39 - [1535] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: The question that popped into my head reading this is "ok, and?" There are people who mine just to watch ore fill their holds. There are people who ship spin and do literally nothing else. What does that have to do you you or me or anyone else? It's not your cash their are spending to sub. As I said - they can play that way if they want, I have no particular problem with it. But when I say "F1 Monkey" or something like that - I'm talking about them. 9 times out of 10 people like you assume I'm talking about you and jump in to defend yourselves, saying you aren't F1 monkeys.... But at least for myself, I'm not talking about players like you... That is all Then you should use a different word for what you mean. Apparently your idea of an F1 monkey is vastly different from what most other people think.
Lord Molly Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships. 420	Posted - 2016.08.17 17:04:24 - [1536] - Quote are there less people playing? I mean the whole MBC vc CFC thing kinda broke eve recently, removing nearly all small gang content as larger entities hoovered up small corps and alliances into the bigger ones breaking lowsec pvp but on the whole are there not more people playing? My Youtube Chan Alliance Youtube Chan
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 545	Posted - 2016.08.17 17:17:15 - [1537] - Quote Nicolai Serkanner wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: The question that popped into my head reading this is "ok, and?" There are people who mine just to watch ore fill their holds. There are people who ship spin and do literally nothing else. What does that have to do you you or me or anyone else? It's not your cash their are spending to sub. As I said - they can play that way if they want, I have no particular problem with it. But when I say "F1 Monkey" or something like that - I'm talking about them. 9 times out of 10 people like you assume I'm talking about you and jump in to defend yourselves, saying you aren't F1 monkeys.... But at least for myself, I'm not talking about players like you... That is all Then you should use a different word for what you mean. Apparently your idea of an F1 monkey is vastly different from what most other people think. Really? How would you define an F1 monkey then - if it is not a player who only flies in 0.0 blob fleets? Please, elaborate...
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14438	Posted - 2016.08.17 17:19:14 - [1538] - Quote Nicolai Serkanner wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: The question that popped into my head reading this is "ok, and?" There are people who mine just to watch ore fill their holds. There are people who ship spin and do literally nothing else. What does that have to do you you or me or anyone else? It's not your cash their are spending to sub. As I said - they can play that way if they want, I have no particular problem with it. But when I say "F1 Monkey" or something like that - I'm talking about them. 9 times out of 10 people like you assume I'm talking about you and jump in to defend yourselves, saying you aren't F1 monkeys.... But at least for myself, I'm not talking about players like you... That is all Then you should use a different word for what you mean. Apparently your idea of an F1 monkey is vastly different from what most other people think. Well said. It's not a huge deal, just irritating, people who use terms like "F1 monkey" are actually saying "I'm morally superior to you because I play a video game by smashing 2 or more buttons compared to your one". That makes them jsut as bad as the people they complain about. It's that stupid, we are all wasting precious life time playing a video game. Even in the context of the game the fleet fighter (even if they are doing it just for killmails) is no lesser than some leet solo pvper or miner or banker or high sec mission runner or ganker or whatever.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 545	Posted - 2016.08.17 17:20:30 - [1539] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Nicolai Serkanner wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: The question that popped into my head reading this is "ok, and?" There are people who mine just to watch ore fill their holds. There are people who ship spin and do literally nothing else. What does that have to do you you or me or anyone else? It's not your cash their are spending to sub. As I said - they can play that way if they want, I have no particular problem with it. But when I say "F1 Monkey" or something like that - I'm talking about them. 9 times out of 10 people like you assume I'm talking about you and jump in to defend yourselves, saying you aren't F1 monkeys.... But at least for myself, I'm not talking about players like you... That is all Then you should use a different word for what you mean. Apparently your idea of an F1 monkey is vastly different from what most other people think. Well said. It's not a huge deal, just irritating, people who use terms like "F1 monkey" are actually saying "I'm morally superior to you because I play a video game by smashing 2 or more buttons compared to your one". That makes them jsut as bad as the people they complain about. It's that stupid, we are all wasting precious life time playing a video game. Even in the context of the game the fleet fighter (even if they are doing it just for killmails) is no lesser than some leet solo pvper or miner or banker or high sec mission runner or ganker or whatever. OK...fine...You are an F1 monkey.... Yeesh, I didn't know it mattered that much to you that I include you in the F1 monkey group...I'll use the term to describe all 0.0 residents from now on - just for you o7
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14438	Posted - 2016.08.17 17:22:35 - [1540] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Well said. It's not a huge deal, just irritating, people who use terms like "F1 monkey" are actually saying "I'm morally superior to you because I play a video game by smashing 2 or more buttons compared to your one". That makes them jsut as bad as the people they complain about. It's that stupid, we are all wasting precious life time playing a video game. Even in the context of the game the fleet fighter (even if they are doing it just for killmails) is no lesser than some leet solo pvper or miner or banker or high sec mission runner or ganker or whatever. OK...fine...You are an F1 monkey.... Yeesh, I didn't know it mattered that much to you that I include you in the F1 monkey group...I'll use the term to describe all 0.0 residents from now on - just for you o7 You should try growing up. Or would it be easier to just blame me because you hold a prejudiced attitude about something inconsequential? Either way is good with me.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 545	Posted - 2016.08.17 17:25:09 - [1541] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Well said. It's not a huge deal, just irritating, people who use terms like "F1 monkey" are actually saying "I'm morally superior to you because I play a video game by smashing 2 or more buttons compared to your one". That makes them jsut as bad as the people they complain about. It's that stupid, we are all wasting precious life time playing a video game. Even in the context of the game the fleet fighter (even if they are doing it just for killmails) is no lesser than some leet solo pvper or miner or banker or high sec mission runner or ganker or whatever. OK...fine...You are an F1 monkey.... Yeesh, I didn't know it mattered that much to you that I include you in the F1 monkey group...I'll use the term to describe all 0.0 residents from now on - just for you o7 You should try growing up. Or would it be easier to just blame me because you hold a prejudiced attitude about something inconsequential? Either way is good with me. Look, I was simply explaining that I use the term in an accurate fashion - to describe players who could literally be replaced by a monkey trained to press the F1 key. And I know such players exist because I know some of them personally... I went out of my way to say I do not think the term applies to the majority of 0.0 residents, I know most of you do a lot more than that... I also made it clear that I have no problem with them playing that way - but F1 monkey is simply an accurate description of what they do... You are the one who took that as an insult, that I wasn't including you... So...why don't you grow up, or grow some thicker skin. You insist on taking insults where none have even been aimed at you, then of course people will insult you. Deal with it.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14439	Posted - 2016.08.17 17:30:10 - [1542] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Well said. It's not a huge deal, just irritating, people who use terms like "F1 monkey" are actually saying "I'm morally superior to you because I play a video game by smashing 2 or more buttons compared to your one". That makes them jsut as bad as the people they complain about. It's that stupid, we are all wasting precious life time playing a video game. Even in the context of the game the fleet fighter (even if they are doing it just for killmails) is no lesser than some leet solo pvper or miner or banker or high sec mission runner or ganker or whatever. OK...fine...You are an F1 monkey.... Yeesh, I didn't know it mattered that much to you that I include you in the F1 monkey group...I'll use the term to describe all 0.0 residents from now on - just for you o7 You should try growing up. Or would it be easier to just blame me because you hold a prejudiced attitude about something inconsequential? Either way is good with me. Look, I was simply explaining that I use the term in an accurate fashion - to describe players who could literally be replaced by a monkey trained to press the F1 key. And I know such players exist because I know some of them personally... I went out of my way to say I do not think the term applies to the majority of 0.0 residents, I know most of you do a lot more than that... I also made it clear that I have no problem with them playing that way - but F1 monkey is simply an accurate description of what they do... You are the one who took that as an insult, that I wasn't including you... So...why don't you grow up, or grow some thicker skin. You insist on taking insults where none have even been aimed at you, then of course people will insult you. Deal with it. I'm the one who should grow up, yet I'm not the one calling other players "monkeys" while hiding behind a forum alt. You belong here.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 546	Posted - 2016.08.17 17:34:44 - [1543] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: I'm should grow up, yet I'm not the one calling other players "monkeys" while hiding behind a forum alt. You belong here. Oooh, buuurrrrn.... Yes, I, a forum alt, belong on the forums... Totally going to go re-think my entire life after that one.... Was that even really an insult? I mean I know you intended it as one...but come on now. I'd say we've derailed this thread far enough and we should get back on topic...but I think we lost that 50+ pages ago
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14439	Posted - 2016.08.17 17:41:39 - [1544] - Quote When I insult you, son, you'll know it, you'll barely be able to pepper your posts with embarrassment smiles (which tend to pop up when someone realizes they made themselves look like a fool) your hand will be shaking so much.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 546	Posted - 2016.08.17 17:47:41 - [1545] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: When I insult you, son, you'll know it, you'll barely be able to pepper your posts with embarrassment smiles (which tend to pop up when someone realizes they made themselves look like a fool) your hand will be shaking so much. Actually I've always over-used emoticons I'm afraid - I stand by my usage of F1 monkey and will continue using it regardless of your opinions As for your insults, we'll see when you throw one out then I imagine - whenever that happens..
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7952	Posted - 2016.08.17 18:04:13 - [1546] - Quote There's only one way to settle this, ladies Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Loucxious Leopold Dredge Nation Short Bus Syndicate 22	Posted - 2016.08.17 18:08:03 - [1547] - Quote in the traditional Highland manner? Both bare breasted wielding an eight pound baby?
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17484	Posted - 2016.08.17 18:08:07 - [1548] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: There's only one way to settle this, ladies SHUTTLE FIGHT! Both contestants meet @ 4-4 , first one bumped off 0 or ganked loses. =]\|[=
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 546	Posted - 2016.08.17 18:14:22 - [1549] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: There's only one way to settle this, ladies SHUTTLE FIGHT! Both contestants meet @ 4-4 , first one bumped off 0 or ganked loses. auto-piloting there right now... (unless CODE. ganks me along the way )
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14439	Posted - 2016.08.17 18:16:50 - [1550] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: There's only one way to settle this, ladies SHUTTLE FIGHT! Both contestants meet @ 4-4 , first one bumped off 0 or ganked loses. Won't work. Shuttle flight requires use of more than one button, and since apparently some of us are so monkey like we can only press F1.....
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 546	Posted - 2016.08.17 18:19:08 - [1551] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: There's only one way to settle this, ladies SHUTTLE FIGHT! Both contestants meet @ 4-4 , first one bumped off 0 or ganked loses. Won't work. Shuttle flight requires use of more than one button, and since apparently some of us are so monkey like we can only press F1..... Actually it only requires your left mouse button - not even a single keyboard key. Unless you manually pilot with bound controls - which is laggy/buggy last time I tried it... Lazy Monkey edit: 3 jumps to jita as well - will probably get ganked on the undock
Nicolai Serkanner Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective 523	Posted - 2016.08.17 18:22:25 - [1552] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Nicolai Serkanner wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: The question that popped into my head reading this is "ok, and?" There are people who mine just to watch ore fill their holds. There are people who ship spin and do literally nothing else. What does that have to do you you or me or anyone else? It's not your cash their are spending to sub. As I said - they can play that way if they want, I have no particular problem with it. But when I say "F1 Monkey" or something like that - I'm talking about them. 9 times out of 10 people like you assume I'm talking about you and jump in to defend yourselves, saying you aren't F1 monkeys.... But at least for myself, I'm not talking about players like you... That is all Then you should use a different word for what you mean. Apparently your idea of an F1 monkey is vastly different from what most other people think. Really? How would you define an F1 monkey then - if it is not a player who only flies in 0.0 blob fleets? Please, elaborate... Jenn explained already. No need to repeat it.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 546	Posted - 2016.08.17 18:24:15 - [1553] - Quote Nicolai Serkanner wrote: Jenn explained already. No need to repeat it. Actually Jenn never did explain... Just complained at me rather vaguely... I believe what Jenn would like to say (but can't seem to articulate) is that the term is offensive and I shouldn't use it at all... But what the two of you actually keep seeming to say is that you are offended I didn't include you in the term "F1 Monkey" - like it is a group you are jealous you can't be part of...
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 624	Posted - 2016.08.17 18:25:56 - [1554] - Quote Who won? Too late to place bets?
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 546	Posted - 2016.08.17 18:28:53 - [1555] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Who won? Too late to place bets? I am in Jita - don't think Jenn is coming sadly - so I guess I win And yes Jenn, I know it isn't fair to ask you to come out of 0.0 to shuttle fight a forum alt, and I only autopilotted 6 jumps past lazy CODE. pilots who didn't even gank me.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7952	Posted - 2016.08.17 18:42:24 - [1556] - Quote Hmmm - which one to bet on..... I don't like either one of them so this is difficult. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 546	Posted - 2016.08.17 18:44:25 - [1557] - Quote Maybe what we really need to do is a big free-for-all shuttle fight with everybody who has posted in this thread.
Nitshe Razvedka 1228	Posted - 2016.08.17 18:50:50 - [1558] - Quote dibs on the diplomatic shuttle, the Cadillac of shuttles. And I'm sooo diplomatic. Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS. Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 626	Posted - 2016.08.17 19:01:52 - [1559] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Maybe what we really need to do is a big free-for-all shuttle fight with everybody who has posted in this thread. In true EvE style, we'd agree to such an event only to see one guy bringing a Rifter called "Minmatar Shuttle", one in a smartbombing Hurricane and one in a cloaky reaper with backup fleet in EC-P. This will be so much fun
Nicolai Serkanner Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective 524	Posted - 2016.08.17 19:21:09 - [1560] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Nicolai Serkanner wrote: Jenn explained already. No need to repeat it. Actually Jenn never did explain... Just complained at me rather vaguely... I believe what Jenn would like to say (but can't seem to articulate) is that the term is offensive and I shouldn't use it at all... But what the two of you actually keep seeming to say is that you are offended I didn't include you in the term "F1 Monkey" - like it is a group you are jealous you can't be part of... Bollocks.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 547	Posted - 2016.08.17 19:25:20 - [1561] - Quote Nicolai Serkanner wrote: Bollocks. Your only stated objection to my usage of "F1 Monkey" is that I don't use it like everyone else. Everyone else throws it around as a general term for all 0.0 residents. Thus - you clearly want me to call all 0.0 residents F1 Monkeys.... I really see no other possible way to interpret your literal words.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 5798	Posted - 2016.08.17 19:38:43 - [1562] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Look, I was simply explaining that I use the term in an accurate fashion - to describe players who could literally be replaced by a monkey trained to press the F1 key. And I know such players exist because I know some of them personally... I went out of my way to say I do not think the term applies to the majority of 0.0 residents, I know most of you do a lot more than that... I also made it clear that I have no problem with them playing that way - but F1 monkey is simply an accurate description of what they do... You are the one who took that as an insult, that I wasn't including you... So...why don't you grow up, or grow some thicker skin. You insist on taking insults where none have even been aimed at you, then of course people will insult you. Deal with it. Yeah! EvE Online portal \| EvE markets tutorials
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14441	Posted - 2016.08.17 19:58:25 - [1563] - Quote Nicolai Serkanner wrote: Bollocks. Leave it Nic. If there is one thing I know (learned from this forum in fact), is that it's a waste of time talking to people who can't (won') understand what's being said.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7954	Posted - 2016.08.17 23:37:47 - [1564] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Look, I was simply explaining that I use the term in an accurate fashion - to describe players who could literally be replaced by a monkey trained to press the F1 key. And I know such players exist because I know some of them personally... I went out of my way to say I do not think the term applies to the majority of 0.0 residents, I know most of you do a lot more than that... I also made it clear that I have no problem with them playing that way - but F1 monkey is simply an accurate description of what they do... You are the one who took that as an insult, that I wasn't including you... So...why don't you grow up, or grow some thicker skin. You insist on taking insults where none have even been aimed at you, then of course people will insult you. Deal with it. Yeah! Yeah! Bring back DEEEEP Space!
xxxTRUSTxxx Galactic Rangers EVEolution. 469	Posted - 2016.08.18 08:15:16 - [1565] - Quote is this the bit where people make personal attacks to get the thread locked???
Jasmine Deer Perkone Caldari State 26	Posted - 2016.08.18 08:20:51 - [1566] - Quote xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: is this the bit where people make personal attacks to get the thread locked??? Better if it stays open to isolate ranting and venting here but that might be too optimistic an outlook.
xxxTRUSTxxx Galactic Rangers EVEolution. 469	Posted - 2016.08.18 08:35:16 - [1567] - Quote Jasmine Deer wrote: xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: is this the bit where people make personal attacks to get the thread locked??? Better if it stays open to isolate ranting and venting here but that might be too optimistic an outlook. i can't agree with you, this thread ran its coarse about 70 pages ago and it's not the first thread on this stupid subject. EVE is dying threads are EVE is dying threads and they should be locked on sight. EVE is dying since the day it began, just like every other game out there, but some people seem to think ah yes, this looks like a great time to push my i want this and that removed to suit the way i want to play the game and the way i want it played by everyone else, because look,, people are leaving the game and (insert random alt) thinks he has the answer to a question that's based on nonsense. ya never see a numbers are up and more people are playing, why ???? thread. do ya
Jasmine Deer Perkone Caldari State 26	Posted - 2016.08.18 09:06:48 - [1568] - Quote xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: i can't agree with you, this thread ran its coarse about 70 pages ago and it's not the first thread on this stupid subject. EVE is dying threads are EVE is dying threads and they should be locked on sight. In that case I hope ISD enjoy playing whack-a-mole. I'm just waiting for the current "So, Barge Info?" thread which has a lot of useful information and contributions to soon descend into a spiral of claims and counter-claims about whether ganking mining barges is too easy/hard, and carebears/gankers are ruining the game and so no wonder we are losing players, EVE is dying , your fault and people like you, blah blah
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7992	Posted - 2016.08.18 23:11:37 - [1569] - Quote Jasmine Deer wrote: xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: i can't agree with you, this thread ran its coarse about 70 pages ago and it's not the first thread on this stupid subject. EVE is dying threads are EVE is dying threads and they should be locked on sight. In that case I hope ISD enjoy playing whack-a-mole. I'm just waiting for the current "So, Barge Info?" thread which has a lot of useful information and contributions to soon descend into a spiral of claims and counter-claims about whether ganking mining barges is too easy/hard, and carebears/gankers are ruining the game and so no wonder we are losing players, EVE is dying , your fault and people like you, blah blah Is that a request? Just kidding. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Valkin Mordirc 2385	Posted - 2016.08.19 08:05:13 - [1570] - Quote I think the main reason they leave threads like this open is because it becoming a threadnought kinda proves that people are still active and they care about the game. All the whine and complaining, and the people defending and countering and blah blah blah shows that the forum is active. That and locking a thread saying, "AYE Dis game is dead yo" kinda looks bad in it's own right. What would be worse if thread like these are left at page one. With nobody responding. That or the ISD's are a sadistic bunch and they like to see people fight with each other like some sort of Forum Satan and we all died and this is our version of hell. Both likely possibilities honestly `#DeleteTheWeak`
xxxTRUSTxxx Galactic Rangers EVEolution. 469	Posted - 2016.08.19 08:54:35 - [1571] - Quote Valkin Mordirc wrote: I think the main reason they leave threads like this open is because it becoming a threadnought kinda proves that people are still active and they care about the game. All the whine and complaining, and the people defending and countering and blah blah blah shows that the forum is active. That and locking a thread saying, "AYE Dis game is dead yo" kinda looks bad in it's own right. What would be worse if thread like these are left at page one. With nobody responding. That or the ISD's are a sadistic bunch and they like to see people fight with each other like some sort of Forum Satan and we all died and this is our version of hell. Both likely possibilities honestly CCP do not need a thread like this to prove anything to them. they know people care about the game. so let's say a thread starts up called "YE Dis game is dead yo" a simple response stating no, the servers are up and EVE is online and lock it. what if threads like this are making new players think hang on, this game takes a long while to get anywhere (as it should be) and it's putting players off investing long term into our game? no matter what changes have come over the last few years to make EVE a little more easy for the new guy (and we vets know it has) this new guy we speak of knows very little about EVE and is it possible they jump on the forums looking for advise and see threads like this and think hey,, wait a minute,, what if i invest my cash and time and this game is dying? free play weekend coming, lots of new guys incoming this weekend. i hope most of them don't see this thread or threads like it. let's see how many of these new people we can convince to stay ;) all the worried players on this thread, now's your chance to help reverse this so callled drop in numbers. CCP have responded now lets see does the community ;) it's up to us and nobody else.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 574	Posted - 2016.08.19 10:41:46 - [1572] - Quote The ISD generally doesn't lock threads unless they break forum rules or go wildly out of control off course. Additionally you may have noticed (if you pay any attention) that if you lock a thread like this without giving the OP time to say whatever he/she came to say - they tend to spam-open more threads in response....So instead of 1 threadnought you get 5-10 mini-threads clogging up the front-page of the forum section. It may also depend if the specific ISD involved finds the thread interesting to read (for whatever reason) - who knows. But in any case the answer is not to demand they insta-lock all threads like this
xxxTRUSTxxx Galactic Rangers EVEolution. 469	Posted - 2016.08.19 13:25:06 - [1573] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: But in any case the answer is not to demand they insta-lock all threads like this well yea perhaps insta locking them isn't a good idea, but there is a point when a thread like this has run it's coarse and it doesn't take 80 pages for that to happen. plus it's redundant. been raised many times before making it so.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14445	Posted - 2016.08.19 13:40:07 - [1574] - Quote There have been "EVE is dying" concerns since 2003. I've long though it was a display of anxiety ie people feel like they have 'invested' things (time , money, care) into something and this triggers anxiety because of the uncertainty involving when it may end. I don't feel any such anxiety. I've spent so much time playing EVE if there was such a thing as an EVE PhD I'd have 2 of them, yet EVE ending would only hurt for a few seconds because EVE isn't my life, it's a just a hobby/game. But I know something else as well, telling the 'worry warts' to stop worrying is futile. Worry is part of their make ups in the same way that not worrying is a part of mine.
xxxTRUSTxxx Galactic Rangers EVEolution. 469	Posted - 2016.08.19 13:43:47 - [1575] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: There have been "EVE is dying" concerns since 2003. I've long though it was a display of anxiety ie people feel like they have 'invested' things (time , money, care) into something and this triggers anxiety because of the uncertainty involving when it may end. I don't feel any such anxiety. I've spent so much time playing EVE if there was such a thing as an EVE PhD I'd have 2 of them, yet EVE ending would only hurt for a few seconds because EVE isn't my life, it's a just a hobby/game. But I know something else as well, telling the 'worry warts' to stop worrying is futile. Worry is part of their make ups in the same way that not worrying is a part of mine. pretty much the same here. i keep asking myself, why they hef to be so mad? it's just a game lol
Infinity Ziona Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 2421	Posted - 2016.08.21 01:19:36 - [1576] - Quote Not sure if you've played the game lately but it literally sucks balls. PvE is a turd. PvP is non-existent unless you consider 10 x svipul and 5 garmurs vs anything easy to kill pvp. Anything not easy to kill they simply fly away till they find something easy to kill. CCP Fozzie GÇ£We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGÇª in null sec anomalies. GÇ£* Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Discordia Duenna Control-Space DARKNESS. 79	Posted - 2016.08.21 01:38:55 - [1577] - Quote Infinity Ziona wrote: Not sure if you've played the game lately but it literally sucks balls. PvE is a turd. PvP is non-existent unless you consider 10 x svipul and 5 garmurs vs anything easy to kill pvp. Anything not easy to kill they simply fly away till they find something easy to kill. Haven't people always tried to fly away? Didn't you found Privateers? iirc it was 10 x t1 dessies and 5 Falcons back then right? :P You are right though PvE is a turd, needs more variety and randomness to it, so people have to think more on their feet.
Infinity Ziona Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 2421	Posted - 2016.08.21 01:58:31 - [1578] - Quote Discordia Duenna wrote: Infinity Ziona wrote: Not sure if you've played the game lately but it literally sucks balls. PvE is a turd. PvP is non-existent unless you consider 10 x svipul and 5 garmurs vs anything easy to kill pvp. Anything not easy to kill they simply fly away till they find something easy to kill. Haven't people always tried to fly away? Didn't you found Privateers? iirc it was 10 x t1 dessies and 5 Falcons back then right? :P You are right though PvE is a turd, needs more variety and randomness to it, so people have to think more on their feet. People have always tried to fly away and people have always tried to stop them. CCP create balance though, in terms of hull size, speed and dps, damage application and tank. The smallest ships such as the interceptor were very fast, could kite but did little damage or could brawl but needed to take a scram, they popped at the slightest damage. The larger ships could do more dps, but were slower, to do max dps they needed to get scrammed. There was a balance. No balance anymore so all I'm seeing in space are disposable t1's because of the above or T3D's and Garmurs. CCP Fozzie GÇ£We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGÇª in null sec anomalies. GÇ£* Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17546	Posted - 2016.08.21 02:12:55 - [1579] - Quote Valkin Mordirc wrote: I think the main reason they leave threads like this open is because it becoming a threadnought kinda proves that people are still active and they care about the game. All the whine and complaining, and the people defending and countering and blah blah blah shows that the forum is active. That and locking a thread saying, "AYE Dis game is dead yo" kinda looks bad in it's own right. What would be worse if thread like these are left at page one. With nobody responding. That or the ISD's are a sadistic bunch and they like to see people fight with each other like some sort of Forum Satan and we all died and this is our version of hell. Both likely possibilities honestly ive seen ezwal refer to these as "lighting rod" threads, make of that what you will =]\|[=
Solecist Project 32278	Posted - 2016.08.21 02:50:32 - [1580] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: ive seen ezwal refer to these as "lighting rod" threads, make of that what you will i was thinking this. ^_^ Forever burnt into my memory... And yours, apparently... :D "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia Typos. the curse of mobility.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17547	Posted - 2016.08.21 03:16:38 - [1581] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: ive seen ezwal refer to these as "lighting rod" threads, make of that what you will i was thinking this. ^_^ Forever burnt into my memory... And yours, apparently... :D Works though, and not just on us trolls either. i have seen a couple of potential shinaniganisers get threads through without the ag lads jumping down tjeir throghts because they were buisy here. =]\|[=
Solecist Project 32283	Posted - 2016.08.21 03:44:24 - [1582] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Solecist Project wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: ive seen ezwal refer to these as "lighting rod" threads, make of that what you will i was thinking this. ^_^ Forever burnt into my memory... And yours, apparently... :D Works though, and not just on us trolls either. i have seen a couple of potential shinaniganisers get threads through without the ag lads jumping down tjeir throghts because they were buisy here. Shinaniganisers! :D i really wish those self righteous dorks wouldn't be so horrible people ... ... but one goes with the other, so .... #PODLIFEMATTERS "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia Typos. the curse of mobility.
Discordia Duenna Control-Space DARKNESS. 79	Posted - 2016.08.21 09:28:33 - [1583] - Quote Infinity Ziona wrote: Discordia Duenna wrote: Infinity Ziona wrote: Not sure if you've played the game lately but it literally sucks balls. PvE is a turd. PvP is non-existent unless you consider 10 x svipul and 5 garmurs vs anything easy to kill pvp. Anything not easy to kill they simply fly away till they find something easy to kill. Haven't people always tried to fly away? Didn't you found Privateers? iirc it was 10 x t1 dessies and 5 Falcons back then right? :P You are right though PvE is a turd, needs more variety and randomness to it, so people have to think more on their feet. People have always tried to fly away and people have always tried to stop them. CCP create balance though, in terms of hull size, speed and dps, damage application and tank. The smallest ships such as the interceptor were very fast, could kite but did little damage or could brawl but needed to take a scram, they popped at the slightest damage. The larger ships could do more dps, but were slower, to do max dps they needed to get scrammed. There was a balance. No balance anymore so all I'm seeing in space are disposable t1's because of the above or T3D's and Garmurs. I have to admit I agree with this, but also Gilas, Gilas everywhere. On the other hand, we do actually see people using t1's. Noobs are able to feel like they aren't surrounded by a sea of t2 and logging off for weeks while they wait for the skills everyone says are mandatory to having fun. Horde bring alot of t1, they have a lot of fun doing so too. But I see your point, the BS class is now in a very sorry state, stuck in a no mans land of capitals that finally can defend themselves against subcaps (great change tbh) and cruisers that simply have better kiting prospects and applied dps.
Infinity Ziona Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 2421	Posted - 2016.08.21 10:01:26 - [1584] - Quote Discordia Duenna wrote: Infinity Ziona wrote: Discordia Duenna wrote: Infinity Ziona wrote: Not sure if you've played the game lately but it literally sucks balls. PvE is a turd. PvP is non-existent unless you consider 10 x svipul and 5 garmurs vs anything easy to kill pvp. Anything not easy to kill they simply fly away till they find something easy to kill. Haven't people always tried to fly away? Didn't you found Privateers? iirc it was 10 x t1 dessies and 5 Falcons back then right? :P You are right though PvE is a turd, needs more variety and randomness to it, so people have to think more on their feet. People have always tried to fly away and people have always tried to stop them. CCP create balance though, in terms of hull size, speed and dps, damage application and tank. The smallest ships such as the interceptor were very fast, could kite but did little damage or could brawl but needed to take a scram, they popped at the slightest damage. The larger ships could do more dps, but were slower, to do max dps they needed to get scrammed. There was a balance. No balance anymore so all I'm seeing in space are disposable t1's because of the above or T3D's and Garmurs. I have to admit I agree with this, but also Gilas, Gilas everywhere. On the other hand, we do actually see people using t1's. Noobs are able to feel like they aren't surrounded by a sea of t2 and logging off for weeks while they wait for the skills everyone says are mandatory to having fun. Horde bring alot of t1, they have a lot of fun doing so too. But I see your point, the BS class is now in a very sorry state, stuck in a no mans land of capitals that finally can defend themselves against subcaps (great change tbh) and cruisers that simply have better kiting prospects and applied dps. Yeah Horde is awesome. Never met so many people who could care less about getting blown up non-stop :) CCP Fozzie GÇ£We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGÇª in null sec anomalies. GÇ£* Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 8008	Posted - 2016.08.21 10:23:12 - [1585] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Solecist Project wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: ive seen ezwal refer to these as "lighting rod" threads, make of that what you will i was thinking this. ^_^ Forever burnt into my memory... And yours, apparently... :D Works though, and not just on us trolls either. i have seen a couple of potential shinaniganisers get threads through without the ag lads jumping down tjeir throghts because they were buisy here. Are you OK? Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Solecist Project 32285	Posted - 2016.08.21 11:35:01 - [1586] - Quote Sorry, we don't speak to people who put getting ganked and getting raped on an equal level. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia Typos. the curse of mobility.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 8008	Posted - 2016.08.21 22:25:53 - [1587] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: Sorry, we don't speak to people who put getting ganked and getting raped on an equal level. Most people still make the connection, in spite of the galighitng your kind does. That's why they play something else. Hence this thread. It struck me the other day, being busy as usual, that the kind of person who has all day to think about messing up someone else's game is the kind of person that is already not being missed IRL and won't be missed in this game either. Ask anybody who left Eve and they won't remember the names of the people they didn't like. Until CCP gets the rot out that has sided with the easy-kill community and decides to pull some serious changes to save Eve from mediocrity, it will continue to linger on, with the likes of you shitpoasting as if it made a difference. Or maybe it makes a difference to you, a difference that the world would never know, and a difference nobody else could care about. All hail, Solecist! Winner of the Eve Online Forums!!! What forum? * END TRANSMISSION * Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Solecist Project 32302	Posted - 2016.08.21 22:30:18 - [1588] - Quote Well, that was an angry person upset about how he can't equate ganking to **. I guess, indeed, for not thinking like this I am rot. And you're a perfectly good person by calling other people rot. I must admit that was one of the most well formulated whineposts I've ever read. You even ended with END TRANSMISSION just so you can put an end to it. You're weak and you suck as a human being. And whenever I see you, I will make sure people understand that you equate ganking with **. Well done. Have a nice day. :) "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia Typos. the curse of mobility.
Sunshyn LaBlond 24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire 26	Posted - 2016.08.21 22:45:51 - [1589] - Quote One or two dudes completely run Eve now. Not even players, just some guy that owns a gaming casino. So much for us players having any meaningful impact on the sandbox. Just get rich running a casino and you too can bend this game to your whims. I didn't shed a tear over the Goons losing their empire, but it was an empire that took years of people working together to build. Torn down in a couple months by bad mechanics and a dude with a gambling site snapping his fingers. That doesn't bode well for anyone and certainly shatters any illusion of making an impact on this game. As long as CCP continues to force terrible mechanics on us, and allow RMT'ers and gambling site owners to dominate the game, it's going to be a hard sell to get anyone interested in playing. Anyone that had the notion of being the next player to be profiled in Playboy or WSJ better not waste their time actually playing Eve, and just set up a competing casino site instead.
Doc Fury Furious Enterprises 8617	Posted - 2016.08.21 23:29:05 - [1590] - Quote Sunshyn LaBlond wrote: One or two dudes completely run Eve now. Not even players, just some guy that owns a gaming casino. So much for us players having any meaningful impact on the sandbox. Just get rich running a casino and you too can bend this game to your whims. I didn't shed a tear over the Goons losing their empire, but it was an empire that took years of people working together to build. Torn down in a couple months by bad mechanics and a dude with a gambling site snapping his fingers. That doesn't bode well for anyone and certainly shatters any illusion of making an impact on this game. As long as CCP continues to force terrible mechanics on us, and allow RMT'ers and gambling site owners to dominate the game, it's going to be a hard sell to get anyone interested in playing. Anyone that had the notion of being the next player to be profiled in Playboy or WSJ better not waste their time actually playing Eve, and just set up a competing casino site instead. Really? You are espousing the sanctity of the sandbox, while deriding those who have simply taken advantage of it within the present rules. /Doc would otherwise welcome a ban on out of game services for isk, but that is unlikely to happen. Gÿ+ The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper: 'Hodor'.
Maekchu Gunpoint Diplomacy 412	Posted - 2016.08.21 23:40:18 - [1591] - Quote Sunshyn LaBlond wrote: As long as CCP continues to force terrible mechanics on us, and allow RMT'ers and gambling site owners to dominate the game, it's going to be a hard sell to get anyone interested in playing. Cause a gambling site owner that financed a major war, has any influence on the common EvE player just flying around space doing some pew. /sarcasm That post of yours stink of jealousy.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2286	Posted - 2016.08.22 06:08:27 - [1592] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Solecist Project wrote: Sorry, we don't speak to people who put getting ganked and getting raped on an equal level. Most people still make the connection, in spite of the galighitng your kind does. That's why they play something else. Hence this thread. It struck me the other day, being busy as usual, that the kind of person who has all day to think about messing up someone else's game is the kind of person that is already not being missed IRL and won't be missed in this game either. Ask anybody who left Eve and they won't remember the names of the people they didn't like. Until CCP gets the rot out that has sided with the easy-kill community and decides to pull some serious changes to save Eve from mediocrity, it will continue to linger on, with the likes of you shitpoasting as if it made a difference. Or maybe it makes a difference to you, a difference that the world would never know, and a difference nobody else could care about. All hail, Solecist! Winner of the Eve Online Forums!!! What forum? * END TRANSMISSION * o7 When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
xxxTRUSTxxx Galactic Rangers EVEolution. 479	Posted - 2016.08.22 07:20:48 - [1593] - Quote Sunshyn LaBlond wrote: So much for us players having any meaningful impact on the sandbox. ok so ya need it broken down barney style,, no problem. player A gets a loan of ISK from player B player A tells player B to feck himself when it comes to paying it back. player B pays players to shoot player A's mates in the face for this. players from all areas join in on the fun, it all escalates as it does in EVE. so where do you see players not playing a meaningful part in the sand box? you want lifeguards to build walls around your sand castle when the tide comes in. hahahahaha lol never going to happen and when it does,, game over man,, game over!
Viktor Amarr 97	Posted - 2016.08.22 07:27:25 - [1594] - Quote Sunshyn LaBlond wrote: So much for us players having any meaningful impact on the sandbox. "Other people do better in this sandbox than me, mostly because they put in more effort. This clearly shows that the sandbox is wrong!".
Drago Shouna Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 527	Posted - 2016.08.22 07:55:06 - [1595] - Quote Viktor Amarr wrote: Sunshyn LaBlond wrote: So much for us players having any meaningful impact on the sandbox. "Other people do better in this sandbox than me, mostly because they put in more effort. This clearly shows that the sandbox is wrong!". So you're just here to troll others rather than adding to the discussion or coming up with any meaningful suggestions? But what's new, you're doing it on several threads atm.....
March rabbit Mosquito Squadron The-Culture 1872	Posted - 2016.08.22 12:39:48 - [1596] - Quote Maekchu wrote: Sunshyn LaBlond wrote: As long as CCP continues to force terrible mechanics on us, and allow RMT'ers and gambling site owners to dominate the game, it's going to be a hard sell to get anyone interested in playing. Cause a gambling site owner that financed a major war, has any influence on the common EvE player just flying around space doing some pew. /sarcasm That post of yours stink of jealousy. It might be because he is not happy with being 'common EVE player just flying around space doing some pew'. The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Maekchu Gunpoint Diplomacy 414	Posted - 2016.08.22 12:52:30 - [1597] - Quote March rabbit wrote: Maekchu wrote: Sunshyn LaBlond wrote: As long as CCP continues to force terrible mechanics on us, and allow RMT'ers and gambling site owners to dominate the game, it's going to be a hard sell to get anyone interested in playing. Cause a gambling site owner that financed a major war, has any influence on the common EvE player just flying around space doing some pew. /sarcasm That post of yours stink of jealousy. It might be because he is not happy with being 'common EVE player just flying around space doing some pew'. Then he should probably put some effort into not being the 'common EvE player flying around space doing some pew'. It's a sandbox. In EvE there is no 'grind to lvl100, roll some legends and roflstomp some puppies, while the whole server is in awe of your e-peen'. Do you honestly think it is easy to make a successful EvE casino? Don't you think a bit more effort has been put into IwantISK.com, then what that person has put into whatever he has been trying to do? Do you think all the major powerhouses in EvE have just exploited the 'system' for their own needs with no effort put into it? It's like how people want to be rich and famous in real life, but doesn't really want to put in any effort and then they blame the 'system' cause they cannot achieve their goal. But again, it's so much easier just to ask for nerfs and stuff instead of putting in some effort.
Solecist Project 32322	Posted - 2016.08.22 14:27:44 - [1598] - Quote "One or two dudes completely run Eve now. Not even players, just some guy that owns a gaming casino. " Okay so if it's so easy just some guy can do it, you should be doing it too. Because it's not hard at all. There's no work and real life involved in it. Not in programming, not in setting up servers, not in maintenance, not in fixing bugs, not in sending out payments, not in customer service. Null. Nada. It's apparently so easy, everyone can do it. ... The fact that losers bash on successfull people ... ... shows how bad it has become already. Envy. It's a *****. Edit: .... beaten by maekchu. lol "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia Typos. the curse of mobility.
Logan Revelore Symbiotic Systems 86	Posted - 2016.08.23 18:00:16 - [1599] - Quote Denavit wrote: Is is because PLEX prices, i remember buying them at 550mill, 500mill, now is almost 1bill, or is it because the changes are making oldSchoolers quit? The game simply isn't up to modern standards.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 615	Posted - 2016.08.23 18:05:39 - [1600] - Quote Logan Revelore wrote: The game simply isn't up to modern standards. Which standards would those be then? You know what CCP could do to really bring EVE up to modern game "standards"? They could just claim it has been an early-access beta all these years - and will actually be released "soon"(tm). Problem solved The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal. Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Solecist Project 32346	Posted - 2016.08.23 18:19:39 - [1601] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Logan Revelore wrote: The game simply isn't up to modern standards. Which standards would those be then? You know what CCP could do to really bring EVE up to modern game "standards"? They could just claim it has been an early-release beta all these years - and will actually be released "soon"(tm). Problem solved the standards of using neuroscience to deliberately attract certain types of people to get them to pay money. Despite being seemingly complex in regards to translating it into proper game-play ... ... how it works can be roughly summarized in several lines. Unless I write it! Then it's at least 3000 chars and that's actually low by my own standards........... That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia 8 Golden Rules of EVE
Solecist Project 32350	Posted - 2016.08.23 18:21:53 - [1602] - Quote Drago Shouna wrote: Viktor Amarr wrote: Sunshyn LaBlond wrote: So much for us players having any meaningful impact on the sandbox. "Other people do better in this sandbox than me, mostly because they put in more effort. This clearly shows that the sandbox is wrong!". So you're just here to troll others rather than adding to the discussion or coming up with any meaningful suggestions? But what's new, you're doing it on several threads atm..... Wow I'm in your signature! Just yesterday I wondered when that'll happen again! It's been at least a year since the last time! Thank you, I really feel honoured. :) That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia 8 Golden Rules of EVE
March rabbit Mosquito Squadron The-Culture 1875	Posted - 2016.08.23 19:23:04 - [1603] - Quote Maekchu wrote: March rabbit wrote: Maekchu wrote: Sunshyn LaBlond wrote: As long as CCP continues to force terrible mechanics on us, and allow RMT'ers and gambling site owners to dominate the game, it's going to be a hard sell to get anyone interested in playing. Cause a gambling site owner that financed a major war, has any influence on the common EvE player just flying around space doing some pew. /sarcasm That post of yours stink of jealousy. It might be because he is not happy with being 'common EVE player just flying around space doing some pew'. Then he should probably put some effort into not being the 'common EvE player flying around space doing some pew'. It's a sandbox. In EvE there is no 'grind to lvl100, roll some legends and roflstomp some puppies, while the whole server is in awe of your e-peen'. It's like how people want to be rich and famous in real life, but doesn't really want to put in any effort and then they blame the 'system' cause they cannot achieve their goal. But again, it's so much easier just to ask for nerfs and stuff instead of putting in some effort. If you mean 'everyone should get his own out-of-game casino' then i don't like it (hint: read all the quotes and not only the last). The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Fade Azura Logistics and Salvage Express Services 166	Posted - 2016.09.01 18:16:33 - [1604] - Quote it seems like the new games that come out are getting simpler and simpler ... eve is an old game .. some of the older games were/are alot harder to play. kinda like how everquest was to warcraft ...
BrundleMeth Caldari Provisions Caldari State 514	Posted - 2016.09.01 22:36:24 - [1605] - Quote The main reason that less people are playing is very simple. They aren't logging on anymore...
Dwai Attic Infinite Point Test Alliance Please Ignore 20	Posted - 2016.09.01 23:18:34 - [1606] - Quote BrundleMeth wrote: The main reason that less people are playing is very simple. They aren't logging on anymore... Oh really? Groundbreaking observation Since we're going F2P numbers will be up again...
Kharamete Royal Assent 167	Posted - 2016.09.02 03:46:21 - [1607] - Quote The gist of too many conversations I've seen... New Player: Hey guys, I just joined! This game looks awesome! What do I do? NPC Corp: If you skill for the Venture you can mine and make isk. NP: WhatGÇÖs a Venture? NPC Corp: Idiot. Noob. NP: So, what do I do? NPC Corp: If you skill for the Venture you can mine and make isk. NP: But I saw this ad. You could go out there, and fight with hundreds of players! NPC Corp: YouGÇÖre useless as a newbie. TheyGÇÖll never accept you. The ads lie. You can never catch up. NP: But then what do I DO? NPC Corp: If you skill for the Venture you can mine and make isk. NP: Mine? [Two weeks later] Mining? This is it? ** this. ESO has gone free to play, I think. CCP FoxFour:** "... the what button... oh god I didn't even know that existed. BRB." My little youtube videos can be found here
Elinarien Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 59	Posted - 2016.09.02 08:41:04 - [1608] - Quote Kharamete wrote: The gist of too many conversations I've seen... New Player: Hey guys, I just joined! This game looks awesome! What do I do? NPC Corp: If you skill for the Venture you can mine and make isk. NP: WhatGÇÖs a Venture? NPC Corp: Idiot. Noob. NP: So, what do I do? NPC Corp: If you skill for the Venture you can mine and make isk. NP: But I saw this ad. You could go out there, and fight with hundreds of players! NPC Corp: YouGÇÖre useless as a newbie. TheyGÇÖll never accept you. The ads lie. You can never catch up. NP: But then what do I DO? NPC Corp: If you skill for the Venture you can mine and make isk. NP: Mine? [Two weeks later] Mining? This is it? **** this. ESO has gone free to play, I think. Probably happens already with the 30 day trials.
Serene Repose 2838	Posted - 2016.09.02 11:10:30 - [1609] - Quote Anybody run the numbers on players coming back? We do that with other body counts - birth/death ratio? We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Valkorsia IONSTAR Yulai Federation 2	Posted - 2016.09.02 12:38:09 - [1610] - Quote Very simply. There's nothing sexual in the game. Sexuality is a big part of life, and it is non-existent in a game of life and death ... and Eve has even managed to nerf my nipples. Do you see nipples anywhere? No. It's ridiculous. #Freethenipple
Solecist Project 32824	Posted - 2016.09.02 17:38:31 - [1611] - Quote Valkorsia wrote: Very simply. There's nothing sexual in the game. Sexuality is a big part of life, and it is non-existent in a game of life and death ... and Eve has even managed to nerf my nipples. Do you see nipples anywhere? No. It's ridiculous. #Freethenipple First: Nipples aren't a thing because of the US market. I have no source for that except the very fact that nipples cause an outrage of a miniature fragment of the population of the US, thus everyone has to suffer for it. (Think about this for a minute) Second: you actually have no idea. I mean, sure, when it comes to generic avatar pics you're right... untilyou start using pain.net, which is free and amazingly capable. And there is a literal gigantic **-ton of people who are within all shades from proper erotic roleplaying to disgusting cybersex. The pic exchange is real. So. *******. Real. It's amazing! lol That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Solecist Project 32824	Posted - 2016.09.02 17:40:06 - [1612] - Quote And it's ... So So ***** Profitable!** That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
VicturusTeSaluto Metafarmers 4	Posted - 2016.09.03 00:01:11 - [1613] - Quote No. I used to get a 90 day GTC for far far less than the cost of 1 plex. If I knew that CCP was going to be introducing plex I probably would have brought years of game time back in the day! However, looking back now just working 1 extra shift would pay many accounts for an entire year so no worries. Instead the problem is that CCP has focused for a decade on making sure that every change is based around making combat less likely to occur and has been trying to go after noobs in frigs(fw)/casual high sec players etc... As a result the gameplay deteriorated for the core players, especially in low sec.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5187	Posted - 2016.09.03 07:47:32 - [1614] - Quote Kharamete wrote: The gist of too many conversations I've seen... New Player: Hey guys, I just joined! This game looks awesome! What do I do? NPC Corp: If you skill for the Venture you can mine and make isk. NP: WhatGÇÖs a Venture? NPC Corp: Idiot. Noob. NP: So, what do I do? NPC Corp: If you skill for the Venture you can mine and make isk. NP: But I saw this ad. You could go out there, and fight with hundreds of players! NPC Corp: YouGÇÖre useless as a newbie. TheyGÇÖll never accept you. The ads lie. You can never catch up. NP: But then what do I DO? NPC Corp: If you skill for the Venture you can mine and make isk. NP: Mine? [Two weeks later] Mining? This is it? **** this. ESO has gone free to play, I think. After about 10 days of skill training you can start ganking freighters with CODE. They could join Eve Uni. They could look into joining Brave, Karmafleet, or other alliances/corps geared towards new players. But no, you keep telling him to go mine in a venture. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Serene Repose 2854	Posted - 2016.09.03 09:11:34 - [1615] - Quote Start ganking with CODE? Wouldn't it take more than ten days to totally lose ones self-esteem, or is this idea for those who come to us already in the self-loathing mode? Where did I put that pesky sig.... We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Sonya Corvinus Grant Village 517	Posted - 2016.09.03 14:34:19 - [1616] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: After about 10 days of skill training you can start ganking freighters with CODE. They could join Eve Uni. They could look into joining Brave, Karmafleet, or other alliances/corps geared towards new players. But no, you keep telling him to go mine in a venture. You can do more than that. I immediately joined RvB with my first account and got into PvP. Two months into the game I was living in null. I've always loved exploration (and I mean actually exploring the universe, not hacking data/relic sites) so I set up a business scouting for trading runs. It might sound boring now, but to a new player, exploring and scouting dangerous, enemy filled space was extremely exciting, and I made a lot of ISK in thank you donations on the side.
Laufey Sif Tetseldottir Blue Lagoon Appreciation Society 46	Posted - 2016.09.04 01:50:27 - [1617] - Quote Because CCP does not deliver ? Walk in Station Atmospheric Flight Planet exploration Comet mining Asteroid exploration/Archeology by walking Drug dealing in station Anyone remember that Minecraft redstone on a POS picture showed at random fanfest ? Probably it's a part of the problem.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 707	Posted - 2016.09.04 02:40:44 - [1618] - Quote Laufey Sif Tetseldottir wrote: Because CCP does not deliver ? Walk in Station Atmospheric Flight Planet exploration Comet mining Asteroid exploration/Archeology by walking Drug dealing in station etc etc Anyone remember that Minecraft redstone on a POS picture showed at random fanfest ? Probably it's a part of the problem. Anybody with half a brain should have been able to tell many years ago that none of the things you just listed is even remotely feasible using EVE's code - you would have to re-design the game from the ground up to put any of them in in a way that wouldn't be utter ***. Look at the controls* for walking in stations, for example - would you really want to have meaningful walking in stations (combat/etc) with those controls? Or the massive lag in response time when flying in first person due to the 1 second server tick delay on every action...Would you really want to try to navigate within a planetary atmosphere through that? Even comet mining - mining ships could never keep up with anything that could possibly be considered a "comet" flying through space... And even if they could you'd first have to scan it, track it, warp to its old position, and catch up to it before you could even start mining... It is just a silly idea. I mean come on - sure CCP is stupid to keep promising things they could never possibly deliver - but at some point you are also just an idiot for betting sucked in by the empty hype. The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal. Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Laufey Sif Tetseldottir Blue Lagoon Appreciation Society 46	Posted - 2016.09.04 12:21:13 - [1619] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Laufey Sif Tetseldottir wrote: Because CCP does not deliver ? Walk in Station Atmospheric Flight Planet exploration Comet mining Asteroid exploration/Archeology by walking Drug dealing in station etc etc Anyone remember that Minecraft redstone on a POS picture showed at random fanfest ? Probably it's a part of the problem. Anybody with half a brain should have been able to tell many years ago that none of the things you just listed is even remotely feasible using EVE's code - you would have to re-design the game from the ground up to put any of them in in a way that wouldn't be utter ***. Look at the controls* for walking in stations, for example - would you really want to have meaningful walking in stations (combat/etc) with those controls? Or the massive lag in response time when flying in first person due to the 1 second server tick delay on every action...Would you really want to try to navigate within a planetary atmosphere through that? Even comet mining - mining ships could never keep up with anything that could possibly be considered a "comet" flying through space... And even if they could you'd first have to scan it, track it, warp to its old position, and catch up to it before you could even start mining... It is just a silly idea. I mean come on - sure CCP is stupid to keep promising things they could never possibly deliver - but at some point you are also just an idiot for being sucked in by the empty hype. So everybody have to be a ******* software engineer to be able to discuss ? All I see whatever the technical requirement is that CCP promises some gameplay features, some new content, that they never delivered. I don't know what's doable or not, and I don't care, if CCP told me, what about this features ? you will have this, you will do this, I think they know what they are talking about cause that's their job, not mine. And the fact that I could have been sucked into some empty hype is not the issue, CCP not delivering is still a part of the problem.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 708	Posted - 2016.09.04 12:43:36 - [1620] - Quote Laufey Sif Tetseldottir wrote: So everybody have to be a ******* software engineer to be able to discuss ? All I see whatever the technical requirement is that CCP promises some gameplay features, some new content, that they never delivered. I don't know what's doable or not, and I don't care, if CCP told me, what about this features ? you will have this, you will do this, I think they know what they are talking about cause that's their job, not mine. And the fact that I could have been sucked into some empty hype is not the issue, CCP not delivering is still a part of the problem. To be fair they've been more reasonable with their promises for the past few years here - I don't think anything you listed was proposed recently was it? The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal. Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 17964	Posted - 2016.09.04 15:01:13 - [1621] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Laufey Sif Tetseldottir wrote: So everybody have to be a ******* software engineer to be able to discuss ? All I see whatever the technical requirement is that CCP promises some gameplay features, some new content, that they never delivered. I don't know what's doable or not, and I don't care, if CCP told me, what about this features ? you will have this, you will do this, I think they know what they are talking about cause that's their job, not mine. And the fact that I could have been sucked into some empty hype is not the issue, CCP not delivering is still a part of the problem. To be fair they've been more reasonable with their promises for the past few years here - I don't think anything you listed was proposed recently was it? Yes but people have gotten really comfortable with hitting CCP with that stick. What kind of sociopathic griefer would ask them to stop it just because CCP have changed their ways? You should be ashamed of yourself. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
StonerPhReaK AFK Inc. 458	Posted - 2016.09.04 15:19:09 - [1622] - Quote Eve needs to appeal to this generations wants. They love cosmetics: Ship Skins They love playing dress up: Boots They have 0 attention span: PI They love instant gratification: Skill injectors They love holding hands: New player Experience revamp #647 And most important. They love free things: Alpha Clones Turns out things they dont like are something Eve gives more of. Tough love. The need to use common sense. Trust no one ever. Nothing is fair. People smarter than you. The really cool things to do things take time (They really hate this one) They lack creativity/ambition/motivation Cant say CCP isnt trying. But this generation is a picky one. Gonna be hard to reel in these fish. Just gotta give them more of what they want than what they are willing to make for themselves. Signatures wer cooler when we couldn't remove them completely.
Valder Ripley Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 106	Posted - 2016.09.04 15:33:11 - [1623] - Quote StonerPhReaK wrote: Eve needs to appeal to this generations wants. ... Cant say CCP isnt trying. But this generation is a picky one. Gonna be hard to reel in these fish. Just gotta give them more of what they want than what they are willing to make for themselves. I don-¦t know. I mean, I totally agree with you about what this generation of younger players want. My first question is, how many younger and older players came and left EvE in the last 10 years? Are there demographic statistics? My second question is, would it be better for CCP and EvE to appeal to the younger or older generations wants? I would say, younger players have more time, but no money - older players have more money, but no time. Double bind Do not go gentle into that good night, though wise men at their end know dark is right, rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Amy Farrah FowIer SKULL AND B0NES 20	Posted - 2016.09.04 15:42:20 - [1624] - Quote AVG player online actually on the level from 2006/2007 good job CCP
Foxstar Damaskeenus Taladi Federation 280	Posted - 2016.09.04 20:35:12 - [1625] - Quote This is possibly my favorite video game of all time. I like the coldness of space. That being said, It's getting harder and harder to find people to play with who normal people can fit in with. I find most of the people that play this game to be filthy, disgusting forever virgin types. I could go on for a while about my problem but mostly I absolutely hate 1/2 of the people that play this game on a deeply personal level. It's getting to the point where it won't be possible to have a good career and then come on fleet comms and listen to some morbidly obese, effeminate high pitched voice guy talk about what he wants to shove up his butt hole. The gamer culture or the culture of the gamers that are left in this game is sadly becoming dominated by basement dweller types. I thought it was just me because I have been stressed out at work badly for the last couple years but having played other games recently I realize a lot of the active players have settled in to some kind of vile real life existence. "[this thread] is a cesspit of trolling and flaming" ISD Buldath
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 708	Posted - 2016.09.04 22:09:48 - [1626] - Quote Valder Ripley wrote: StonerPhReaK wrote: Eve needs to appeal to this generations wants. ... Cant say CCP isnt trying. But this generation is a picky one. Gonna be hard to reel in these fish. Just gotta give them more of what they want than what they are willing to make for themselves. I don-¦t know. I mean, I totally agree with you about what this generation of younger players want. My first question is, how many younger and older players came and left EvE in the last 10 years? Are there demographic statistics? My second question is, would it be better for CCP and EvE to appeal to the younger or older generations wants? I would say, younger players have more time, but no money - older players have more money, but no time. Double bind Whether it is their own money or their parents' money the younger generation of gamers spends way more RL $$$ on games than the older gamers in general - so it is really a no-brainer from the financial standpoint. The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal. Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Tsukino Stareine Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 1728	Posted - 2016.09.05 07:38:25 - [1627] - Quote Foxstar Damaskeenus wrote: This is possibly my favorite video game of all time. I like the coldness of space. That being said, It's getting harder and harder to find people to play with who normal people can fit in with. I find most of the people that play this game to be filthy, disgusting forever virgin types. I could go on for a while about my problem but mostly I absolutely hate 1/2 of the people that play this game on a deeply personal level. It's getting to the point where it won't be possible to have a good career and then come on fleet comms and listen to some morbidly obese, effeminate high pitched voice guy talk about what he wants to shove up his butt hole. The gamer culture or the culture of the gamers that are left in this game is sadly becoming dominated by basement dweller types. I thought it was just me because I have been stressed out at work badly for the last couple years but having played other games recently I realize a lot of the active players have settled in to some kind of vile real life existence. My experience has been the exact opposite. Most people have steady relationships, children and sometimes even grandchildren. Guess it varies depending on a lot of things, but I'm willing to bet the area of space we reside, time zone and interests vastly differ
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 17995	Posted - 2016.09.05 10:31:52 - [1628] - Quote Foxstar Damaskeenus wrote: This is possibly my favorite video game of all time. I like the coldness of space. That being said, It's getting harder and harder to find people to play with who normal people can fit in with. I find most of the people that play this game to be filthy, disgusting forever virgin types. I could go on for a while about my problem but mostly I absolutely hate 1/2 of the people that play this game on a deeply personal level. It's getting to the point where it won't be possible to have a good career and then come on fleet comms and listen to some morbidly obese, effeminate high pitched voice guy talk about what he wants to shove up his butt hole. The gamer culture or the culture of the gamers that are left in this game is sadly becoming dominated by basement dweller types. I thought it was just me because I have been stressed out at work badly for the last couple years but having played other games recently I realize a lot of the active players have settled in to some kind of vile real life existence. My experience is that the mature, friendly and helpful players in EVE tend to congregate together. That does leave unexplained the mystery of why you seem to be in a group of people such as you describe. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26764	Posted - 2016.09.05 11:54:47 - [1629] - Quote Malcanis wrote: My experience is that the mature, friendly and helpful players in EVE tend to congregate together. That does leave unexplained the mystery of why you seem to be in a group of people such as you describe. I wouldn't have been as subtle, well played sir. Civilised behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. New Player FAQ Feyd's Survival Pack
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 18001	Posted - 2016.09.05 12:03:55 - [1630] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Malcanis wrote: My experience is that the mature, friendly and helpful players in EVE tend to congregate together. That does leave unexplained the mystery of why you seem to be in a group of people such as you describe. I wouldn't have been as subtle, well played sir. It also leaves unexplained the mystery of why some of them put up with me. We're going to need a detective. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26764	Posted - 2016.09.05 12:28:49 - [1631] - Quote Malcanis wrote: It also leaves unexplained the mystery of why some of them put up with me. Your bluntness, some of us appreciate it. Quote: We're going to need a detective. Paging Rip.... Civilised behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. New Player FAQ Feyd's Survival Pack
Railyn Quisqueya Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 5	Posted - 2016.09.05 13:06:57 - [1632] - Quote Malcanis wrote: My experience is that the mature, friendly and helpful players in EVE tend to congregate together. That does leave unexplained the mystery of why you seem to be in a group of people such as you describe. This. CODE. fits your ideal very well. So a mystery it is indeed.
Aurelius Oshidashi Immortal Lunatics Ministry of Agressive Destruction 15	Posted - 2016.09.05 13:18:05 - [1633] - Quote Foxstar Damaskeenus wrote: This is possibly my favorite video game of all time. I like the coldness of space. That being said, It's getting harder and harder to find people to play with who normal people can fit in with. I find most of the people that play this game to be filthy, disgusting forever virgin types. I could go on for a while about my problem but mostly I absolutely hate 1/2 of the people that play this game on a deeply personal level. It's getting to the point where it won't be possible to have a good career and then come on fleet comms and listen to some morbidly obese, effeminate high pitched voice guy talk about what he wants to shove up his butt hole. The gamer culture or the culture of the gamers that are left in this game is sadly becoming dominated by basement dweller types. I thought it was just me because I have been stressed out at work badly for the last couple years but having played other games recently I realize a lot of the active players have settled in to some kind of vile real life existence. I haven't met those people yet! I've been flying with lots of guys older than me, with a job and kids, but also a guy participating at the recent Olympics, students, other sportive types, professional gamers, world travelers and more. Mostly reasonable people and often above averagely intelligent. I get turned off when people start talking about their irritations in RL too much. That was in the first Corp I joined, but I quickly left then for a better corp
Lord Xar POS Builder Inc. Silent Requiem 0	Posted - 2016.09.05 14:28:40 - [1634] - Quote Because its pointless I just got used to it after a few years afk get a escalation that took me ages to get it goes to null sec great manage to do it grab the loot boom 1.2 billion isk my biggest ever score better than 20 million here and 10 million there. And ofc on the way out jump gate goes straight into a sphere cant warp away ganked by 14 people lose ship and first ever chance to get ahead on the damn game. That's why it only has a few thousand players its unforgiving. True my inexperience is a factor I should have fit the interdiction thingy to my tengu also as well as stealth .But that's just frakking brutal 6 hours or so this chain took me this morning its not even the isk its the time I wasted I think i'll go back to fps games again .
Solecist Project 32962	Posted - 2016.09.05 14:42:37 - [1635] - Quote Lord Xar wrote: Because its pointless I just got used to it after a few years afk get a escalation that took me ages to get it goes to null sec great manage to do it grab the loot boom 1.2 billion isk my biggest ever score better than 20 million here and 10 million there. And ofc on the way out jump gate goes straight into a sphere cant warp away ganked by 14 people lose ship and first ever chance to get ahead on the damn game. That's why it only has a few thousand players its unforgiving. True my inexperience is a factor I should have fit the interdiction thingy to my tengu also as well as stealth .But that's just frakking brutal 6 hours or so this chain took me this morning its not even the isk its the time I wasted I think i'll go back to fps games again . Wall of text ... check. Lack of proper punctuation to seperate thoughts ... check. When was the last time you actually had a properly structured thought? That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2341	Posted - 2016.09.05 15:16:46 - [1636] - Quote Lord Xar wrote: Because its pointless I just got used to it after a few years afk get a escalation that took me ages to get it goes to null sec great manage to do it grab the loot boom 1.2 billion isk my biggest ever score better than 20 million here and 10 million there. And ofc on the way out jump gate goes straight into a sphere cant warp away ganked by 14 people lose ship and first ever chance to get ahead on the damn game. That's why it only has a few thousand players its unforgiving. True my inexperience is a factor I should have fit the interdiction thingy to my tengu also as well as stealth .But that's just frakking brutal 6 hours or so this chain took me this morning its not even the isk its the time I wasted I think i'll go back to fps games again . Do you have just one account or two and that meant you did not have a scout, did you have limited time to play so was a bit reckless due to that. You have to make choices in the game, this game is brutal and hard, I tell people its like every player you come across is the boss type and you have to be smart and cautious to succeed. Of course having just the one character, not having enough time will make you do things perhaps you should not have done. What I liked about you is that you saw taht having the Tengu refitted with an Interdiction Nullifier would have saved your butt, covert ops cloak too by the way. Do you want to beat this game with people like that, I had a lot of fun over many years playing to be hard to kill and seeing the player base as a challenge, for what I am prepared to put into the game at this point they are no longer a challenge for me, but you can have fun doing this. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Lord Xar POS Builder Inc. Silent Requiem 0	Posted - 2016.09.05 16:55:34 - [1637] - Quote Nice I can see being hard to kill as a fun objective lol .As for me using punctuation like i'm writing a novel on a forum nah I just cant be arsed ;p And limited time and 1 account yes. This means I have to undock so I can play and its a cruel hard world ;)
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 710	Posted - 2016.09.05 17:25:10 - [1638] - Quote Lord Xar wrote: Nice I can see being hard to kill as a fun objective lol .As for me using punctuation like i'm writing a novel on a forum nah I just cant be arsed ;p And limited time and 1 account yes. This means I have to undock so I can play and its a cruel hard world ;) Punctuation is not just for novels... The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal. Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Solecist Project 32975	Posted - 2016.09.05 17:49:29 - [1639] - Quote Lord Xar wrote: Nice I can see being hard to kill as a fun objective lol .As for me using punctuation like i'm writing a novel on a forum nah I just cant be arsed ;p And limited time and 1 account yes. This means I have to undock so I can play and its a cruel hard world ;) Of course you missed the point. You do not know why it matters, else you wouldn't be saying this. Look up Dunning-Kruger effect. It explains your response. Proper use of punctuation is not just important to increase the probability of others understanding you. It's actually a measure stick of intelligence in people. It ALLOWS us to question your intelligence! Punctuation is necessary to give words and sentences structure ... ... which means your thoughts have structure. Same reason with grammar and spelling. Yes, the brain can figure out scrambled words which have the first and last letter at the correct positions. What all the morons who keep using this as excuse ignore, is that this takes away processing time that would be better used for understanding what is being written instead of forcing the brain into simple pattern-matching! Without this structure, your words are nothing but a pattern based stream of the first **** that came to your mind. You will more and more degrade into an idiot who lacks awareness of being an idiot and it all started with the carelessness and obvious overestimation of yourself. Yes, you do that, because you think it's fine as it is. LifeProTip: the ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent. To be intelligent, you need to be able to express thoughts in a structured way which allows analysation and self reflection. You'll turn unable to analyse your own words, question your thoughts and beliefs and stop all self reflection. The meaning of individual words eventually merges into blocks, which are several words combined, degenerating them into metaphors. It's straight downhill when this part starts, because as usage increases, more words turn into blocks. It will increase your biases without you realizing. It will make you lose awareness of words and meanings, making it easier to manipulate you. It will make you incapable of doing anything that actually affords cognitive abilities and reduce your world into a passive journey of automatic pattern matching, where you will be incapable of dealing with anything that does not fit that which is already in your brain. You turn into a robot, incapable of recognizing that he's not aware of what he is saying or doing. That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5190	Posted - 2016.09.05 18:16:49 - [1640] - Quote Serene Repose wrote: Start ganking with CODE? Wouldn't it take more than ten days to totally lose ones self-esteem, or is this idea for those who come to us already in the self-loathing mode? Where did I put that pesky sig.... Not everyone shares your idiotic aversion to spontaneous order. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5190	Posted - 2016.09.05 18:26:52 - [1641] - Quote Valder Ripley wrote: StonerPhReaK wrote: Eve needs to appeal to this generations wants. ... Cant say CCP isnt trying. But this generation is a picky one. Gonna be hard to reel in these fish. Just gotta give them more of what they want than what they are willing to make for themselves. I don-¦t know. I mean, I totally agree with you about what this generation of younger players want. My first question is, how many younger and older players came and left EvE in the last 10 years? Are there demographic statistics? My second question is, would it be better for CCP and EvE to appeal to the younger or older generations wants? I would say, younger players have more time, but no money - older players have more money, but no time. Double bind My God you guys sound like a couple of old farts complaining about kids these days always playing on their calculators. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Infinity Ziona Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 2444	Posted - 2016.09.06 09:43:29 - [1642] - Quote Lord Xar wrote: Because its pointless I just got used to it after a few years afk get a escalation that took me ages to get it goes to null sec great manage to do it grab the loot boom 1.2 billion isk my biggest ever score better than 20 million here and 10 million there. And ofc on the way out jump gate goes straight into a sphere cant warp away ganked by 14 people lose ship and first ever chance to get ahead on the damn game. That's why it only has a few thousand players its unforgiving. True my inexperience is a factor I should have fit the interdiction thingy to my tengu also as well as stealth .But that's just frakking brutal 6 hours or so this chain took me this morning its not even the isk its the time I wasted I think i'll go back to fps games again . You think that's bad. Yesterday I spent 6 hours in a typhoon flying around trying to get a fight. All I got was locked and as soon as my HRML hit they'd jump and run. Was multi-boxing and warping a drake around, landing in a bubble, Stratios and Thrasher, though cool finally a fight, engaged, falcon decloaked and I went to make a coffee while they chewed slowly through shields. Stupid frustrating boring game unless you like fighting fights that you're guaranteed to win or guaranteed to lose. Edit: Before anyone tries to say I'm whining about Falcon, I have a fully skilled Falcon alt, I used him once and the fight was so boring I never used him again. I could have put him in an Arazu, Curse, whatever ship I wanted and used him to tackle but then I'd be taking no risks and I prefer risky solo. He's lost about 10 drakes & battleships in the last month, all 2 and 3 vs him solo and 80% of those went fro 3 v 1 to +10 people ganks that's the mentality of EvE players. CCP Fozzie GÇ£We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGÇª in null sec anomalies. GÇ£* Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Tsukino Stareine Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 1739	Posted - 2016.09.06 10:41:45 - [1643] - Quote Unfortunately solo pvp ends up a lot like that since people just don't like losing I find group much more fun, usually a lot less one sided and many more variables lead to unpredictable and fun gameplay
Infinity Ziona Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 2445	Posted - 2016.09.06 11:04:47 - [1644] - Quote Tsukino Stareine wrote: Unfortunately solo pvp ends up a lot like that since people just don't like losing I find group much more fun, usually a lot less one sided and many more variables lead to unpredictable and fun gameplay Yeah losing ships is no big deal for me. Plenty of isk. Losing 6 hours is a bit frustrating though. I ended up putting HRML on and 1 Torp so shoot the torp at things to bait them into thinking I was an easy kill. Still didn't work. II could fly a Svipul or Garmur or whatever but then if everyone does that whats the point of larger hulls. Fleeting is okay but it invariably ends up with you sitting at a gate or whatever shooting singles, the smaller side, you or them not engaging and the majority of the time just sitting. Its a tough choice. I ** you not, in those 6 hours I saw nothing bigger than a cruiser and that was 1 Vexor that run away. Rest were inties, thrashers, svipul, corax..... CCP Fozzie** GÇ£We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGÇª in null sec anomalies. GÇ£* Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 18008	Posted - 2016.09.06 11:57:08 - [1645] - Quote Infinity Ziona wrote: Lord Xar wrote: Because its pointless I just got used to it after a few years afk get a escalation that took me ages to get it goes to null sec great manage to do it grab the loot boom 1.2 billion isk my biggest ever score better than 20 million here and 10 million there. And ofc on the way out jump gate goes straight into a sphere cant warp away ganked by 14 people lose ship and first ever chance to get ahead on the damn game. That's why it only has a few thousand players its unforgiving. True my inexperience is a factor I should have fit the interdiction thingy to my tengu also as well as stealth .But that's just frakking brutal 6 hours or so this chain took me this morning its not even the isk its the time I wasted I think i'll go back to fps games again . You think that's bad. Yesterday I spent 6 hours in a typhoon flying around trying to get a fight. All I got was locked and as soon as my HRML hit they'd jump and run. Was multi-boxing and warping a drake around, landing in a bubble, Stratios and Thrasher, though cool finally a fight, engaged, falcon decloaked and I went to make a coffee while they chewed slowly through shields. Stupid frustrating boring game unless you like fighting fights that you're guaranteed to win or guaranteed to lose. Edit: Before anyone tries to say I'm whining about Falcon, I have a fully skilled Falcon alt, I used him once and the fight was so boring I never used him again. I could have put him in an Arazu, Curse, whatever ship I wanted and used him to tackle but then I'd be taking no risks and I prefer risky solo. He's lost about 10 drakes & battleships in the last month, all 2 and 3 vs him solo and 80% of those went fro 3 v 1 to +10 people ganks that's the mentality of EvE players. That phoon has a nice big drone bay, can carry fof missiles and easily fits and mjd. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
TheVirus32 Trois Etoiles The Volition Cult 23	Posted - 2016.09.06 12:11:14 - [1646] - Quote We just need more hamsters.
Lord Xar POS Builder Inc. Silent Requiem 0	Posted - 2016.09.06 18:32:29 - [1647] - Quote I'm sorry I don't believe I suffer with DunningGÇôKruger effect. I am just a forty year old alcoholic disillusioned with life and genuinely cannot be bothered to type properly . Please forgive me
Solecist Project 33050	Posted - 2016.09.06 18:38:32 - [1648] - Quote Heh, great response mate. ^_^ That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Gaellia Bonaventure EVE University Ivy League 4440	Posted - 2016.09.06 19:48:27 - [1649] - Quote Eve Online is an economic simulator. You're probably only going to squeeze so much high pressure excitement out of that. In other words take the game for what it is and don't expect it to provide you with things it was never designed to do....despite what the advertising says. It's an economic simulator. Albeit a fun one. Nothing more. Bring your possibles.
Infinity Ziona Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 2453	Posted - 2016.09.07 04:51:55 - [1650] - Quote Malcanis wrote: Infinity Ziona wrote: Lord Xar wrote: Because its pointless I just got used to it after a few years afk get a escalation that took me ages to get it goes to null sec great manage to do it grab the loot boom 1.2 billion isk my biggest ever score better than 20 million here and 10 million there. And ofc on the way out jump gate goes straight into a sphere cant warp away ganked by 14 people lose ship and first ever chance to get ahead on the damn game. That's why it only has a few thousand players its unforgiving. True my inexperience is a factor I should have fit the interdiction thingy to my tengu also as well as stealth .But that's just frakking brutal 6 hours or so this chain took me this morning its not even the isk its the time I wasted I think i'll go back to fps games again . You think that's bad. Yesterday I spent 6 hours in a typhoon flying around trying to get a fight. All I got was locked and as soon as my HRML hit they'd jump and run. Was multi-boxing and warping a drake around, landing in a bubble, Stratios and Thrasher, though cool finally a fight, engaged, falcon decloaked and I went to make a coffee while they chewed slowly through shields. Stupid frustrating boring game unless you like fighting fights that you're guaranteed to win or guaranteed to lose. Edit: Before anyone tries to say I'm whining about Falcon, I have a fully skilled Falcon alt, I used him once and the fight was so boring I never used him again. I could have put him in an Arazu, Curse, whatever ship I wanted and used him to tackle but then I'd be taking no risks and I prefer risky solo. He's lost about 10 drakes & battleships in the last month, all 2 and 3 vs him solo and 80% of those went fro 3 v 1 to +10 people ganks that's the mentality of EvE players. That phoon has a nice big drone bay, can carry fof missiles and easily fits and mjd. What do friend or foe missiles or drone bays have to do with flying around for 6 hours not able to find a fight? If youre referring to the Falcon thing that was on an alt I was multiboxing. I wasnt flying him in drake with Phoon I was roaming both solo around Pure Blind and Deklein looking for fights. CCP Fozzie GÇ£We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGÇª in null sec anomalies. GÇ£* Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Harry Forever Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 1302	Posted - 2016.09.19 14:55:48 - [1651] - Quote Infinity Ziona wrote: Discordia Duenna wrote: Infinity Ziona wrote: Discordia Duenna wrote: Infinity Ziona wrote: Not sure if you've played the game lately but it literally sucks balls. PvE is a turd. PvP is non-existent unless you consider 10 x svipul and 5 garmurs vs anything easy to kill pvp. Anything not easy to kill they simply fly away till they find something easy to kill. Haven't people always tried to fly away? Didn't you found Privateers? iirc it was 10 x t1 dessies and 5 Falcons back then right? :P You are right though PvE is a turd, needs more variety and randomness to it, so people have to think more on their feet. People have always tried to fly away and people have always tried to stop them. CCP create balance though, in terms of hull size, speed and dps, damage application and tank. The smallest ships such as the interceptor were very fast, could kite but did little damage or could brawl but needed to take a scram, they popped at the slightest damage. The larger ships could do more dps, but were slower, to do max dps they needed to get scrammed. There was a balance. No balance anymore so all I'm seeing in space are disposable t1's because of the above or T3D's and Garmurs. I have to admit I agree with this, but also Gilas, Gilas everywhere. On the other hand, we do actually see people using t1's. Noobs are able to feel like they aren't surrounded by a sea of t2 and logging off for weeks while they wait for the skills everyone says are mandatory to having fun. Horde bring alot of t1, they have a lot of fun doing so too. But I see your point, the BS class is now in a very sorry state, stuck in a no mans land of capitals that finally can defend themselves against subcaps (great change tbh) and cruisers that simply have better kiting prospects and applied dps. Yeah Horde is awesome. Never met so many people who could care less about getting blown up non-stop :) I heard even Harry Forever is in Horde now.. good times Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
Harry Forever Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 1302	Posted - 2016.09.19 14:58:17 - [1652] - Quote Denavit wrote: Is is because PLEX prices, i remember buying them at 550mill, 500mill, now is almost 1bill, or is it because the changes are making oldSchoolers quit? it's just sad goons leaving, all fine.. Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
Rain6637 NulzSec 34234	Posted - 2016.09.19 22:20:55 - [1653] - Quote I like how alpha clones have flipped the premise of this thread on its head. One major upside will be activity on eve-o. Assuming you can post with an alpha clone, and I hope that's the case. I'm not saying anything about the post quality. I just think activity ~metrics~ will improve. Help, I can't download EVE President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
oiukhp Muvila School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 111	Posted - 2016.09.19 22:24:30 - [1654] - Quote Rain6637 wrote: I like how alpha clones have flipped the premise of this thread on its head. One major upside will be activity on eve-o. Assuming you can post with an alpha clone, and I hope that's the case. I'm not saying anything about the post quality. I just think activity ~metrics~ will improve. It will certainly settle some long argued points. Allowing people free access will show if anyone but existing Eve players even care to log in, or post. What happens if CCP does this and gets an initial bump, then after a few months, the only Alphas that log in are established players or their alts?
BrundleMeth Caldari Provisions Caldari State 521	Posted - 2016.09.19 23:27:43 - [1655] - Quote Valkorsia wrote: Very simply. There's nothing sexual in the game. Sexuality is a big part of life, and it is non-existent in a game of life and death ... and Eve has even managed to nerf my nipples. Do you see nipples anywhere? No. It's ridiculous. #Freethenipple Actually yes, I am rubbing my nipples right now while staring at your Avatar...
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5263	Posted - 2016.09.20 05:21:42 - [1656] - Quote BrundleMeth wrote: Valkorsia wrote: Very simply. There's nothing sexual in the game. Sexuality is a big part of life, and it is non-existent in a game of life and death ... and Eve has even managed to nerf my nipples. Do you see nipples anywhere? No. It's ridiculous. #Freethenipple Actually yes, I am rubbing my nipples right now while staring at your Avatar... Do you work for a cable company? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Milla Goodpussy Federal Navy Academy 443	Posted - 2016.09.20 05:33:06 - [1657] - Quote immersion is a problem which ccp cant handle or deal with. here you have Eve Online.. one of the largest shared servers in gaming history... yet you cant even share your damn captain quarters with anyone.. you cant even walk up to a friend to see the new clothes they spent real money for... oh sure you can nerdly right-click profile and view full body.. but cmon.. is that really needed in a sandbox mmo?? its not.. its stupid and mainstream players view it as that. too many whined against WiS..that it killed immersion.. so instead we have citadels with no interiors just to look at a ship.. not our entire fleet hanger.. not even spinning for fawks sake.. this is the part new players just cant believe they're signing up for.. and some think its ok.. they instantly go on hate tirades about WoW and what ever else..hey guess what haters. those games still have way more players than we do and you're not helping at all by holding back the full potential of this age old game at all. honestly look at the numbers.. the numbers show itself that eve online is suffering from complete bad thinking.. Dust 514 playstation's home lounge was full of folks socializing.. hell it was way better than reading all that spam crap in jita's local for sure.. and even there you had mini-games where all players could just chill at... you'd assumed this would have been on the pc-end but nope.. nothing at all. so why are there less players every year?? cause players are finally getting fed up waiting for eve online to catch up with other games!!
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18111	Posted - 2016.09.20 05:52:08 - [1658] - Quote Milla Goodpussy wrote: so why are there less players every year?? cause players are finally getting fed up waiting for eve online to catch up with other games!! EVE has out lived all of those other MMOs, even the mighty WOW has bled millions of subs. The problem is EVE has been moved to be more like those other games and as it has done so it has lost content and thus players. We no longer see the big ticket events not because people don't want to run them but because CCP have removed the ability to run them. We no longer see things like ninja salvaging and jetcan piracy, not because people dont want to do it but because CCP have all but removed it. We have lost a lot of content over the last 5-6 years.
Anthar Thebess 1639	Posted - 2016.09.20 08:01:08 - [1659] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Milla Goodpussy wrote: so why are there less players every year?? cause players are finally getting fed up waiting for eve online to catch up with other games!! EVE has out lived all of those other MMOs, even the mighty WOW has bled millions of subs. The problem is EVE has been moved to be more like those other games and as it has done so it has lost content and thus players. We no longer see the big ticket events not because people don't want to run them but because CCP have removed the ability to run them. We no longer see things like ninja salvaging and jetcan piracy, not because people dont want to do it but because CCP have all but removed it. We have lost a lot of content over the last 5-6 years. Above this eve was less expensive in our young days. Still remember drake fleets, and people roaming in other battle cruisers. T2 ship was not much more expensive than is now, but people could also have fun in normal T1 ships. Hurricane was godly. This was the fun days. Now after constant "balances" you need to have numbers to fly in T1 crap or need to invest in T2 or pirate ships. Price of the plex is direct effect of the eve economy - and way for CCP to make good isk. The only bad thing i see are the sp farms. I personally know 4 people that run over 1.000 characters, yesterday on reddit we had a guy proving that he was running over 200 chars. I know that this is eve and players will abuse every mechanic, but prefer that this 1200 characters ; 300 accounts where active alts of 300 people. This way you could actually see them on the grid at some point. Horde of extracting alts can earn CCP some isk, but don't bring any benefit to the game itself. Nov will change eve, will it be for good who knows. For sure it will be easier to create huge extractor farms, and milk them moment they will be profitable. Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists Show your support to The Cause!
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14721	Posted - 2016.09.20 13:45:51 - [1660] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Milla Goodpussy wrote: so why are there less players every year?? cause players are finally getting fed up waiting for eve online to catch up with other games!! EVE has out lived all of those other MMOs, even the mighty WOW has bled millions of subs. The problem is EVE has been moved to be more like those other games and as it has done so it has lost content and thus players. We no longer see the big ticket events not because people don't want to run them but because CCP have removed the ability to run them. We no longer see things like ninja salvaging and jetcan piracy, not because people dont want to do it but because CCP have all but removed it. We have lost a lot of content over the last 5-6 years. CCP does tend to (inadvertently...I think) stomp on content. I remember back when FW started you could attract faction police to you and tank them, which made for some really fun Raids on enemy high sec territory (I was Gallente, we raided Nourv twice only to find the Caldari militia had sacked Villore while we were gone lol). CCP killed it. And I used to rat in tanked t1 cruisers and even t1 HAULERS with assigned fighters while spamming "hot drop this!" in local to an afk cloaker. Then CCP create the conditions for Skynet (ie they let fighters get bonuses from drone mods on the carrier that launched them) and to kill Skynet they killed fighter assist, which killed a fun way to counter afk cloaking. It's not jsut PVP, there are lots of PVE things I used to be able to do that I can't do as well now because of some change or another. Not a big deal, things change, but one could hope CCP would learn a bit more about how their game fits together when they make piecemeal changes That being said, Milla my have an accidental point. I've known lots of people who came to EVE because "there was nothing else" and played EVE not because they liked EVE's rough and tumble style and community, but because "EVE has potential, iut could be great one day". Some of those people did leave, partly because CCP never delivered on it's unrealistic/utopian promises (that only a fool would have believed in the 1st place), but also because a much better game for which a person to direct their unattainable and unrealistic hopes on is being made. It starts with an "S" and ends with "tar Citizen"
Shallanna Yassavi Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 412	Posted - 2016.09.20 21:46:49 - [1661] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Valder Ripley wrote: StonerPhReaK wrote: Eve needs to appeal to this generations wants. ... Cant say CCP isnt trying. But this generation is a picky one. Gonna be hard to reel in these fish. Just gotta give them more of what they want than what they are willing to make for themselves. I don-¦t know. I mean, I totally agree with you about what this generation of younger players want. My first question is, how many younger and older players came and left EvE in the last 10 years? Are there demographic statistics? My second question is, would it be better for CCP and EvE to appeal to the younger or older generations wants? I would say, younger players have more time, but no money - older players have more money, but no time. Double bind Whether it is their own money or their parents' money the younger generation of gamers spends way more RL $$$ on games than the older gamers in general - so it is really a no-brainer from the financial standpoint. Yes and no. They may spend way more, but they don't stick around nearly as long. Most MMOs have problems when they're empty. Most MMOs have a lot more scripted content to play through solo, and most MMOs are built around said scripted content. Retention and participation are a lot more important in this one. Without people actually playing, it's a really bad themepark. A signature :o
PopeUrban El Expedicion Flames of Exile 99	Posted - 2016.09.20 23:09:16 - [1662] - Quote Its an old game with a somewhat obtuse learning curve. All MMOs will eventually lose subscribers, but getting those subscribers replaced has become increasingly more difficult as online games went the way of the microtransaction. Not only that, consider that EVE as a game is just as offputting to a more mainstream MMO audience specifically because of what makes it stand out. Alpha clones are a start. They're almost specifically geared to make free players give multiple ***** about FW, and having a "faction" is a much more familiar concept to contemporary PvP. I'm not suprised. They also leaned heavily on FW with the DUST integration for the same reason. "My team" versus "their team" is an easy concept to pick up, that lets solo players and small groups still feel like they have an impact on the universe. Spinning those FW players and FW-focused spinoff integrations in to the larger scope of EVE's player alliances is a solid strategy. It makes for a better new player experience when you feel like your NPC faction actually has some power and is vaguely representative of the full scope of play. On the flip side, for people that DO like freeform empire PvP (which, true or false, is the reputation EVE has and will continue to have because only giant faction battles make headlines outside of the EVE community) are often loath to join a game where all the big alliances are already in place and all the good territory is already claimed. It's the age old NPE problem. Making "owning space" simpler for less skilled players through stuff like citadels helps contextualize things, but much of the game is still extremely obtuse and doesn't do a good job of displaying all the possibilities to new players. EVE isn't hard. It doesn't take a genius. It's just complicated and mostly uninterested in explaining the parts of itself that are straightforward and simple. That means its that much harder to replace players when they leave.
Serene Repose 3025	Posted - 2016.09.22 07:13:53 - [1663] - Quote Computer games used to require intelligence to play. Now anybody, like Jenna or Shae, or any Dirty Forum Alt, can play. This is largely due to game designers giving up entirely on holding the majority's interest and just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks. This new "order" of player sees it as...order...which is fine and dandy to the long ago surrendered. However, just like with Tic Tac Toe, eventually even these run the full spectrum (generous eh?) available. Repetition sets in and boredom soon follows. Bear in mind, we do have those who find staring at blinking yellow lights is entertaining. Yes, we do. Anyway, even logging gets to be mind-numbingly repetitive (thus those who complain about that all the time.) What's amazing is people will still use forks...wait...nevermind about the silverware thing, and don't feel badly about it as you eat your pizza, or hot wings getting all that dye on your fingers you think is the hot sauce. I've always felt, since this thread was first unrolled, it would have been easier to pretend to be intelligent had the question been in English instead of some contorted form of it. The question might be easier to answer if we all didn't have to be psychic (some to more a degree than others) to interpret it. I find for instance, there are less heroine users playing since doing heroine and video game addiction seem to conflict with each other. However, I also find alcohol users not only enjoy this game, they like to bellow that they're drunk while they're playing it! You don't see them doing that when they're driving home from bars, now, do yah? Had EVE changed significantly over the years. Had they not settled for flogging ancient, ill-advised code (for instance) mistaking the trend for future computing being in one direction, rather than another, the list of excuses why the game can't evolve with the rest of reality wouldn't be nearly as long. So, a wider audience (one that isn't a fan of antiques but more current technology) would probably find their ways here and stay a while. But...you have to accept the fact there aren't a whole lot of people that find paying to be ripped off by under-achieving egotists a bargain. In fact, that's supposed to be (in an advanced capitalist society) a sure sign at the very least that you've made a serious error in judgement when making a purchase. The delusional people who continue to believe such is not the case are the "community" here, so....even asking the question smacks of more than just a tad of...gray cell shortage. But, yeah, I had to bump this 'cause I read that subject line and I think it's hilarious. Maybe one day this thread will be as huge as the texture pack thread. Lord knows, it has as much "content". Have a nice day! We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 862	Posted - 2016.09.22 12:13:59 - [1664] - Quote Serene Repose wrote: Computer games used to require intelligence to play. Now anybody, like Jenna or Shae, or any Dirty Forum Alt, can play. This is largely due to game designers giving up entirely on holding the majority's interest and just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks. This new "order" of player sees it as...order...which is fine and dandy to the long ago surrendered. However, just like with Tic Tac Toe, eventually even these run the full spectrum (generous eh?) available. Repetition sets in and boredom soon follows. Bear in mind, we do have those who find staring at blinking yellow lights is entertaining. Yes, we do. Anyway, even logging gets to be mind-numbingly repetitive (thus those who complain about that all the time.) What's amazing is people will still use forks...wait...nevermind about the silverware thing, and don't feel badly about it as you eat your pizza, or hot wings getting all that dye on your fingers you think is the hot sauce. I've always felt, since this thread was first unrolled, it would have been easier to pretend to be intelligent had the question been in English instead of some contorted form of it. The question might be easier to answer if we all didn't have to be psychic (some to more a degree than others) to interpret it. I find for instance, there are less heroine users playing since doing heroine and video game addiction seem to conflict with each other. However, I also find alcohol users not only enjoy this game, they like to bellow that they're drunk while they're playing it! You don't see them doing that when they're driving home from bars, now, do yah? Had EVE changed significantly over the years. Had they not settled for flogging ancient, ill-advised code (for instance) mistaking the trend for future computing being in one direction, rather than another, the list of excuses why the game can't evolve with the rest of reality wouldn't be nearly as long. So, a wider audience (one that isn't a fan of antiques but more current technology) would probably find their ways here and stay a while. But...you have to accept the fact there aren't a whole lot of people that find paying to be ripped off by under-achieving egotists a bargain. In fact, that's supposed to be (in an advanced capitalist society) a sure sign at the very least that you've made a serious error in judgement when making a purchase. The delusional people who continue to believe such is not the case are the "community" here, so....even asking the question smacks of more than just a tad of...gray cell shortage. But, yeah, I had to bump this 'cause I read that subject line and I think it's hilarious. Maybe one day this thread will be as huge as the texture pack thread. Lord knows, it has as much "content". Have a nice day! TL:DR: Null Sec PvE-ers (Jenn), Industrialists (Shae), and Forum Alts (Hi) are ruining the game! Also - Old gamers who think that games should require skill, or have consequences for actions - are idiots. Smart people are modern gamers who know that everything should be handed to you on a silver platter, and there should never be any consequences for anything you do. If EVE had gone this direction sooner, everything would have been perfect. PS: I (Serene) am clearly the smartest person in all the universe because of reasons. Even though all my posts are irrelevant garbage and just complain about the things I (serene) do every single day. Bow down and worship me, otherwise you too will be an idiot!11 The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal. Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 120	Posted - 2016.09.22 12:55:11 - [1665] - Quote Sometimes I have a clear feeling this game is stressful as real life under many aspects. For me it's not a problem at all while I think for many players that want to relax when playing a videogame it can be something serious on the mid-long time. At the beginning it can be interesting ( or exciting ) to see on Eve you die losing your ships, assets, you can be scammed, tricked and so on. You die and you need to spend a lot of time to buy another ship, to travel to the place you were, to gain your money back and so on... On the medium and long time it becomes annoying more and more, until it's frustrating and you ask yourself: "I've just had a stressful day, at work, at school, now I login to the game to face some more stress?" And you just don't login, feeling a sense of relief....
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 1050	Posted - 2016.09.22 13:08:24 - [1666] - Quote Serene Repose wrote: Computer games used to require intelligence to play. Now anybody, like Jenna or Shae, or any Dirty Forum Alt, can play. Ah well, then there's always hope that CCP might dumb the game down enough for even you to understand it. Have a nice day. Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14740	Posted - 2016.09.22 13:36:42 - [1667] - Quote Serene Repose wrote: Computer games used to require intelligence to play. Now anybody, like Jenna or Shae, or any Dirty Forum Alt, can play. This is largely due to game designers giving up entirely on holding the majority's interest and just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks. This new "order" of player sees it as...order...which is fine and dandy to the long ago surrendered. However, just like with Tic Tac Toe, eventually even these run the full spectrum (generous eh?) available. Repetition sets in and boredom soon follows. Bear in mind, we do have those who find staring at blinking yellow lights is entertaining. Yes, we do. Anyway, even logging gets to be mind-numbingly repetitive (thus those who complain about that all the time.) What's amazing is people will still use forks...wait...nevermind about the silverware thing, and don't feel badly about it as you eat your pizza, or hot wings getting all that dye on your fingers you think is the hot sauce. I've always felt, since this thread was first unrolled, it would have been easier to pretend to be intelligent had the question been in English instead of some contorted form of it. The question might be easier to answer if we all didn't have to be psychic (some to more a degree than others) to interpret it. I find for instance, there are less heroine users playing since doing heroine and video game addiction seem to conflict with each other. However, I also find alcohol users not only enjoy this game, they like to bellow that they're drunk while they're playing it! You don't see them doing that when they're driving home from bars, now, do yah? Had EVE changed significantly over the years. Had they not settled for flogging ancient, ill-advised code (for instance) mistaking the trend for future computing being in one direction, rather than another, the list of excuses why the game can't evolve with the rest of reality wouldn't be nearly as long. So, a wider audience (one that isn't a fan of antiques but more current technology) would probably find their ways here and stay a while. But...you have to accept the fact there aren't a whole lot of people that find paying to be ripped off by under-achieving egotists a bargain. In fact, that's supposed to be (in an advanced capitalist society) a sure sign at the very least that you've made a serious error in judgement when making a purchase. The delusional people who continue to believe such is not the case are the "community" here, so....even asking the question smacks of more than just a tad of...gray cell shortage. But, yeah, I had to bump this 'cause I read that subject line and I think it's hilarious. Maybe one day this thread will be as huge as the texture pack thread. Lord knows, it has as much "content". Have a nice day! So wait a minute. EVERY other post you make is about how something in the game is horrible, or CCP is horrible, or the players are horrible,. or basically something is just wrong. When i post, it's in support of the game, and recommending that people get with the program.... ...and yet somehow, in some weird twisted and utterly ******** universe, i'm too dumb to play EVE....the game you are constantly complaining about (while still paying for it). Brilliant.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26880	Posted - 2016.09.22 16:02:32 - [1668] - Quote Serene Repose wrote: Computer games used to require intelligence to play. Now anybody, like Jenna or Shae, or any Dirty Forum Alt, can play. So the people that want computer games to go back to requiring a modicum of intelligence to play are the ones that are too dumb to play computer games that require a modicum of intelligence? Civilised behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. New Player FAQ Feyd's Survival Pack
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5265	Posted - 2016.09.22 16:17:58 - [1669] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Sometimes I have a clear feeling this game is stressful as real life under many aspects. For me it's not a problem at all while I think for many players that want to relax when playing a videogame it can be something serious on the mid-long time. At the beginning it can be interesting ( or exciting ) to see on Eve you die losing your ships, assets, you can be scammed, tricked and so on. You die and you need to spend a lot of time to buy another ship, to travel to the place you were, to gain your money back and so on... On the medium and long time it becomes annoying more and more, until it's frustrating and you ask yourself: "I've just had a stressful day, at work, at school, now I login to the game to face some more stress?" And you just don't login, feeling a sense of relief.... Or.....you learn not to be scammed, ganked, or tricked. But hey, I guess that is just nonsense these days. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Giaus Felix Hedion University Amarr Empire 244	Posted - 2016.09.22 16:48:35 - [1670] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: Sometimes I have a clear feeling this game is stressful as real life under many aspects. For me it's not a problem at all while I think for many players that want to relax when playing a videogame it can be something serious on the mid-long time. At the beginning it can be interesting ( or exciting ) to see on Eve you die losing your ships, assets, you can be scammed, tricked and so on. You die and you need to spend a lot of time to buy another ship, to travel to the place you were, to gain your money back and so on... On the medium and long time it becomes annoying more and more, until it's frustrating and you ask yourself: "I've just had a stressful day, at work, at school, now I login to the game to face some more stress?" And you just don't login, feeling a sense of relief.... Or.....you learn not to be scammed, ganked, or tricked. But hey, I guess that is just nonsense these days. Learning from your mistakes or the mistakes of others is overrated. CCP should remove all circumstances that may require you to learn something, because everybody knows the key to success is to be handed everything on a plate. EVE is a place of greed and danger, alliances and betrayals, risk and paranoia. It is not, and it should not be, a happy place of unicorns and rainbows.
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 120	Posted - 2016.09.22 18:10:11 - [1671] - Quote I didn't say I want the game to be easier... ...I said often videogames are "relaxing"....Eve is not a relaxing game at all, it's extremely challenging so it's suitable for a little player base...
Serene Repose 3033	Posted - 2016.09.22 18:42:01 - [1672] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Serene Repose wrote: Computer games used to require intelligence to play. Now anybody, like Jenna or Shae, or any Dirty Forum Alt, can play. This is largely due to game designers giving up entirely on holding the majority's interest and just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks. This new "order" of player sees it as...order...which is fine and dandy to the long ago surrendered. However, just like with Tic Tac Toe, eventually even these run the full spectrum (generous eh?) available. Repetition sets in and boredom soon follows. Bear in mind, we do have those who find staring at blinking yellow lights is entertaining. Yes, we do. Anyway, even logging gets to be mind-numbingly repetitive (thus those who complain about that all the time.) What's amazing is people will still use forks...wait...nevermind about the silverware thing, and don't feel badly about it as you eat your pizza, or hot wings getting all that dye on your fingers you think is the hot sauce. I've always felt, since this thread was first unrolled, it would have been easier to pretend to be intelligent had the question been in English instead of some contorted form of it. The question might be easier to answer if we all didn't have to be psychic (some to more a degree than others) to interpret it. I find for instance, there are less heroine users playing since doing heroine and video game addiction seem to conflict with each other. However, I also find alcohol users not only enjoy this game, they like to bellow that they're drunk while they're playing it! You don't see them doing that when they're driving home from bars, now, do yah? Had EVE changed significantly over the years. Had they not settled for flogging ancient, ill-advised code (for instance) mistaking the trend for future computing being in one direction, rather than another, the list of excuses why the game can't evolve with the rest of reality wouldn't be nearly as long. So, a wider audience (one that isn't a fan of antiques but more current technology) would probably find their ways here and stay a while. But...you have to accept the fact there aren't a whole lot of people that find paying to be ripped off by under-achieving egotists a bargain. In fact, that's supposed to be (in an advanced capitalist society) a sure sign at the very least that you've made a serious error in judgement when making a purchase. The delusional people who continue to believe such is not the case are the "community" here, so....even asking the question smacks of more than just a tad of...gray cell shortage. But, yeah, I had to bump this 'cause I read that subject line and I think it's hilarious. Maybe one day this thread will be as huge as the texture pack thread. Lord knows, it has as much "content". Have a nice day! So wait a minute. EVERY other post you make is about how something in the game is horrible, or CCP is horrible, or the players are horrible,. or basically something is just wrong. When i post, it's in support of the game, and recommending that people get with the program.... ...and yet somehow, in some weird twisted and utterly ******** universe, i'm too dumb to play EVE....the game you are constantly complaining about (while still paying for it). Brilliant. LOL. Hooked every damn one of you. "Blah blah blah blah blah." We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 864	Posted - 2016.09.22 18:44:29 - [1673] - Quote Serene Repose wrote: LOL. Hooked every damn one of you. "Blah blah blah blah blah." And now have explicitly admitted that you are nothing but a troll. You even used a fishing analogy to literally just say it... Yay you? The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal. Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Serene Repose 3033	Posted - 2016.09.22 18:49:30 - [1674] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Serene Repose wrote: LOL. Hooked every damn one of you. "Blah blah blah blah blah." And now have explicitly admitted that you are nothing but a troll. You even used a fishing analogy to literally just say it... Yay you? I'll never hyper-troll like you. It's a talent, I guess. The great deception is that your walls of text merit the time and effort to consume....however, if it didn't matter to you, you'd never bother...you just have to respond though, don't you? Who's trolling this forum? ad nausuem? We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 864	Posted - 2016.09.22 18:52:42 - [1675] - Quote Serene Repose wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Serene Repose wrote: LOL. Hooked every damn one of you. "Blah blah blah blah blah." And now have explicitly admitted that you are nothing but a troll. You even used a fishing analogy to literally just say it... Yay you? I'll never hyper-troll like you. It's a talent, I guess. The great deception is that your walls of text merit the time and effort to consume....however, if it didn't matter to you, you'd never bother...you just have to respond though, don't you? Who's trolling this forum? ad nausuem? I could list about a dozen - I'm probably on the list yes - but so are you. See, I've never really said you were wrong about me. I am an armchair philosopher, and sure, sometimes I'm wrong. Maybe its not worth reading my walls of text - if you don't find the subject matter interesting. I can agree with that. But what you can't stand is that I point out you doing the exact same thing. The main reason I'm better than you? I'm not in denial about what I am or what I post. I think you've literally convinced yourself you are somehow different, or immune to your own standards of judging posts... And honestly that is just sad. The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal. Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Serene Repose 3034	Posted - 2016.09.22 20:52:16 - [1676] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Serene Repose wrote: I'll never hyper-troll like you. It's a talent, I guess. The great deception is that your walls of text merit the time and effort to consume....however, if it didn't matter to you, you'd never bother...you just have to respond though, don't you? Who's trolling this forum? ad nausuem? I could list about a dozen - I'm probably on the list yes - but so are you. I'm sorry. I don't troll this forum. I have a great deal of respect for it, and had you been around as long as you pretend you have, you'd be aware of this, as are a great many people who don't actively engage in discourse here anymore as it invites a bandwidth busting barrage from a handful of people here who are more than happy to totally derail any thread into a nonsensical, digital chest-beating contest. I take you to task for your disrespect of this venue and its users, you respond only as you know how. Rocket science. Jenn aSide wrote: So wait a minute. EVERY other post you make is about how something in the game is horrible, or CCP is horrible, or the players are horrible,. or basically something is just wrong. When i post, it's in support of the game, and recommending that people get with the program.... ...and yet somehow, in some weird twisted and utterly ******** universe, i'm too dumb to play EVE....the game you are constantly complaining about (while still paying for it). Brilliant. No. You wait. Any objective reader knows well I rant and rave about 99.5% of the game NOT being played as it's been taken over by the likes who only bother with .5% of what's possible. I always have and always WILL. YOU, however, want the impression to be "Serene hates the game - disregard Serene." I suspect that's because you ARE one of those rapt with just .5% of the game, and feel threatened with the idea your LITTLE corner be considered what it actually is - LITTLE. It's a time-honored trolling method, as well. You two are EVE GD's greatest trolls. Sorry Shae, you come in a sorry third. You may now respond with your usual digital bilge. "...I do post about things I don't know about more often than I probably should (...I post...as I fly...recklessly). -Dirty Forum Alt-
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 867	Posted - 2016.09.22 21:14:16 - [1677] - Quote Serene Repose wrote: I'm sorry. I don't troll this forum. I have a great deal of respect for it, and had you been around as long as you pretend you have, you'd be aware of this, as are a great many people who don't actively engage in discourse here anymore as it invites a bandwidth busting barrage from a handful of people here who are more than happy to totally derail any thread into a nonsensical, digital chest-beating contest. I take you to task for your disrespect of this venue and its users, you respond only as you know how. Rocket science. I've played EVE for 8 years. I've only been active on the forum as long as DFA has existed. I believe I've explicitly stated as much, and I thought it was obvious even to you... In the time I've been here, 99% of the posts I've seen you put up, in any thread, on any subject, are clearly trolling. You enjoy writing long walls of text pretending you are smart or know what you are talking about, while clearly pulling everything you are saying straight out of your @ and never providing anything to back any of your wild claims up. You also like to bring up real-world political issues as if they are the root cause of evils within the game. When not posting walls of text full of hot air and Bull-, you write walls of text complaining about people who write walls of text full of Bull-*... I don't know why you hate yourself. Maybe you should seek help... You are literally nothing* but a troll. At least most of my posts are on-topic, and I provide citations/references for claims that I make. You can disagree with what I'm saying - and sometimes I'm wrong - but it isn't just straight up trolling like your posts. I don't know what you used to post years ago when "other people" were here - and I don't give a ***. The fact is that all you post now is troll post after troll post. You are currently* nothing but a troll. And a bad one at that - since most of your troll posts aren't even interesting to read. The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal. Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 867	Posted - 2016.09.22 21:15:15 - [1678] - Quote Also I see I made your bio - albeit in edited form. I assume that means I'm #1. So yay, I won the EVE Forums! \o/ The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal. Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 867	Posted - 2016.09.22 21:19:42 - [1679] - Quote Oh, and as for Jenn aSide and Shae... I wouldn't actually consider either one to be a troll. They certainly have an abrasive posting style sometimes that can rub people the wrong way, as well as deep-seated cases of Bittervet Syndrome - but their posts tend to be pretty simple and direct, and consist solely of their honest feelings/opinions/facts relating to whatever subject they are posting about. You can certainly disagree with them - but you can't say they are trolling. They are participating in the discussions bluntly, honestly, and almost universally on-topic. I'm afraid You and I are the only ones here who make the troll list Serene. Though I'm pretty sure objectively measured you rank higher than even I do. Your list here is just of people you dislike because they call you on your blatant trolling and bull-****. Pretending anything else is ridiculous - and nobody is buying it. The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal. Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 1053	Posted - 2016.09.23 02:29:32 - [1680] - Quote Serene Repose wrote: I'll never hyper-troll like you. It's a talent, I guess. The great deception is that your walls of text merit the time and effort to consume....however, if it didn't matter to you, you'd never bother...you just have to respond though, don't you? Trolling is certainly a talent, expressed through good writing. As Bill Wheeler expressed so well; good writing is clear thinking made visible. I doubt clear thinking is a quality many associate with your posts, resulting in a conclusion even you can grasp. Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Doc Fury Furious Enterprises 8731	Posted - 2016.09.23 02:40:19 - [1681] - Quote Claws are coming out now.. Gÿ+ The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper: 'Hodor'.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5267	Posted - 2016.09.23 03:59:10 - [1682] - Quote Doc Fury wrote: Claws are coming out now.. Of course the womyn are posting. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Serene Repose 3042	Posted - 2016.09.23 04:59:04 - [1683] - Quote Doc Fury wrote: Claws are coming out now.. LOL. No. Just the predictable bandwidth wasters. Pull the string! "...I do post about things I don't know about more often than I probably should (...I post...as I fly...recklessly). -Dirty Forum Alt-
Jovian Death Atomic Battle Beavers 56	Posted - 2016.09.23 10:20:23 - [1684] - Quote Not sure what CCP are doing but what ever they are trying is falling on deaf ears. Average for the latter quarter hasnt really pushed about the 30k mark. Im presuming they will say we will get the numbers back by introducing the free to play option. Then when the new people joining EvE will get the bug and start a subscription. However over the past 5 years I dont think the decline is out of the stagnant issues of EvE. I think its down to the game play and the ideas they have brought in and implemented. It seems they are constantly asking how can we improve and in my mind its not by adding new ships, new races and this and that. If you take the set up of EvE 5 years ago it was pretty run of the mill and constant. Then came in the nerf ball bat and pretty much wrecked everything people are used to. Taking away a lot of what your used to and forcing you to do something else can make players basically quit. If you look at it they fixed something with a brilliant idea and they have been correcting it ever since. Some Examples MWD nerf Ice mining nerf build processing bat PLEX Skill injectors New ships Drifters Watch List If you take all of those into consideration its a constant we are doing this so tough even though the sandbox was built by EvE players. Basically CCP you gave it to us so stop screwing around with it. I dont think the new incentive will work and the idea to get skill points by logging on and popping a ship is plain hilarious
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18162	Posted - 2016.09.23 10:34:05 - [1685] - Quote Jovian Death wrote: Not sure what CCP are doing but what ever they are trying is falling on deaf ears. Average for the latter quarter hasnt really pushed about the 30k mark. Im presuming they will say we will get the numbers back by introducing the free to play option. Then when the new people joining EvE will get the bug and start a subscription. However over the past 5 years I dont think the decline is out of the stagnant issues of EvE. I think its down to the game play and the ideas they have brought in and implemented. It seems they are constantly asking how can we improve and in my mind its not by adding new ships, new races and this and that. If you take the set up of EvE 5 years ago it was pretty run of the mill and constant. Then came in the nerf ball bat and pretty much wrecked everything people are used to. Taking away a lot of what your used to and forcing you to do something else can make players basically quit. If you look at it they fixed something with a brilliant idea and they have been correcting it ever since. Some Examples MWD nerf Ice mining nerf build processing bat PLEX Skill injectors New ships Drifters Watch List If you take all of those into consideration its a constant we are doing this so tough even though the sandbox was built by EvE players. Basically CCP you gave it to us so stop screwing around with it. I dont think the new incentive will work and the idea to get skill points by logging on and popping a ship is plain hilarious Now add all the nerfs to PvP over the years. Hulkageddon, Burn Jita, Ice interdictions, Jetcan piracy, Ninja salvaging, for profit miner ganking, targeted merc wars. All either gone completely or borderline extinct.
Henry Plantgenet Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 113	Posted - 2016.09.23 10:42:31 - [1686] - Quote Then again some of the changes also helped. I wouldn't have a lot of the kills i do without the ice belt changes. LOCAL UP OH BOY I HOPE THEY COME VISIT MY PROCURER :D TACKLE ON ship here and then the fun begins...
Jovian Death Atomic Battle Beavers 56	Posted - 2016.09.23 10:47:33 - [1687] - Quote I think a thousand souls cry out in pain when you see the thread starting Hi CCP logibro here and im going to talk about some new changes coming up in EvE. facedesk Ps this isnt pointing directly at logibro its just hes the only one who drops the bomb on us
Kaivarian Coste Beyond Imports and Exports 83	Posted - 2016.09.23 11:50:22 - [1688] - Quote Hmmm, I logged back in after a few months' hiatus to see how the game's changed. I had previously logged out in low sec, so I launch my ship and blap some belt NPCs for 10 minutes. Then a "pirate" I had added to my contact list jumps in, proceeds to hunt me. I dock into a station, wait 15 minutes, the pirate is still hanging around. I then think about hauling myself back to high sec, realised it would probably take 30-60 minutes to jump/refit/whatever. "**** this" log off, load up steam
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 867	Posted - 2016.09.23 12:00:36 - [1689] - Quote Kaivarian Coste wrote: Hmmm, I logged back in after a few months' hiatus to see how the game's changed. I had previously logged out in low sec, so I launch my ship and blap some belt NPCs for 10 minutes. Then a "pirate" I had added to my contact list jumps in, proceeds to hunt me. I dock into a station, wait 15 minutes, the pirate is still hanging around. I then think about hauling myself back to high sec, realised it would probably take 30-60 minutes to jump/refit/whatever. "**** this" log off, load up steam TBH that isn't really a change... The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal. Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 867	Posted - 2016.09.23 12:04:22 - [1690] - Quote Jovian Death wrote: Not sure what CCP are doing but what ever they are trying is falling on deaf ears. Average for the latter quarter hasnt really pushed about the 30k mark. Im presuming they will say we will get the numbers back by introducing the free to play option. Then when the new people joining EvE will get the bug and start a subscription. Last I heard the "Official" answer from CCP was that subscriptions are not down, players logging in is not down, and we are all just crazy and looking at misleading data on our end. Then the conversation usually switches to revenue rather than activity - which is up obviously with all the new microtransactions. So officially introducing the free to play option is just a cool new idea CCP is doing to modernize the game - and has nothing to do with any perceived problem of less people playing, because no such problem exists. Disclaimer: Unless they've made an announcement to the contrary since the last time I checked of course - in which case I'd appreciate a link. The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal. Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Josef Djugashvilis 3461	Posted - 2016.09.23 12:28:41 - [1691] - Quote The Ice Interdiction is probably the single best player initiated event I have seen in my time playing Eve. Burn Jita was just the goons saying. 'look at us, we are important' CCP make many changes, some of them good, some of them bad and most, who cares? I am still of the opinion that 'cash for skills' which enabled long time players to dump skills and which did not noticeably increase player numbers and the godforsaken, misguided, hamstrung 'free play' will not really help. How long before the freeloaders start to complain that they want 'more and more' free content? This is not a signature.
Dibz Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 134	Posted - 2016.09.23 14:39:34 - [1692] - Quote Kaivarian Coste wrote: Hmmm, I logged back in after a few months' hiatus to see how the game's changed. I had previously logged out in low sec, so I launch my ship and blap some belt NPCs for 10 minutes. Then a "pirate" I had added to my contact list jumps in, proceeds to hunt me. I dock into a station, wait 15 minutes, the pirate is still hanging around. I then think about hauling myself back to high sec, realised it would probably take 30-60 minutes to jump/refit/whatever. "**** this" log off, load up steam You highlight one of EVE's biggest negatives, i.e. the amount of time it can take to do stuff. Sometimes just getting to where you want to be can take many minutes of warping between gates. Obviously space is big and CCP have to give us that illusion of traveling long distances, so I don't really know what else they could do without ruining other aspects of gameplay. But still, when you look at your route and see 20+ jumps, sometimes it's difficult not think "Meh..." and log off.
Al Nomadi Morawins 17	Posted - 2016.09.23 14:54:41 - [1693] - Quote The CODE. damage to the game simply start to take its accumulative effect. Would you keep playing if you get one of that messages after get suddenly ganked in high sec? : "It gets even worse from here. You have been added to our hitlist, which means the next time our scouts see you in local we will kill you on sight." Since those losers have no balls to fight what fights back they just keep hammering newbees in transport or mining ships. For anyone it is very frustrating to be killed without even possibility to scratch attacker back, in space, that supposed to be high sec. So new people get out of the game before they taste real PvP action. Cause to be slaughtered by local pussy in war ship, when you are not in combat able spacecraft is not a PvP, not a real one. Those pussies even eject from the concorded vessel to keep killboard clean, hehe ;)
Gneeznow Ship spinners inc 174	Posted - 2016.09.23 15:57:58 - [1694] - Quote Serene Repose wrote: LOL. Hooked every damn one of you. "Blah blah blah blah blah." Well played, I didn't see the replies since my forum experience looks like this, but I'm sure the butthurt was very real. It usually is from people who post here for 14 hours a day. Al Nomadi wrote: The CODE. damage to the game simply start to take its accumulative effect. Would you keep playing if you get one of that messages after get suddenly ganked in high sec? : "It gets even worse from here. You have been added to our hitlist, which means the next time our scouts see you in local we will kill you on sight." Also this, new players join game, die ad-nauseum to high sec gankers and quit. I don't blame them tbh, they're cannon fodder even in high sec and they realise it and leave.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18165	Posted - 2016.09.23 16:41:51 - [1695] - Quote Gneeznow wrote: Serene Repose wrote: LOL. Hooked every damn one of you. "Blah blah blah blah blah." Well played, I didn't see the replies since my forum experience looks like this, but I'm sure the butthurt was very real. It usually is from people who post here for 14 hours a day. Al Nomadi wrote: The CODE. damage to the game simply start to take its accumulative effect. Would you keep playing if you get one of that messages after get suddenly ganked in high sec? : "It gets even worse from here. You have been added to our hitlist, which means the next time our scouts see you in local we will kill you on sight." Also this, new players join game, die ad-nauseum to high sec gankers and quit. I don't blame them tbh, they're cannon fodder even in high sec and they realise it and leave. Actually it's the opposite, people who get illegally killed tend to stay longer. The problem is the 85% who quit having taken part in no PvP which is why it is important to bring back all of the content that has been lost.
Don Pera Saissore 98	Posted - 2016.09.23 17:23:41 - [1696] - Quote believe it or not but there are players who simply arent interested in pvp
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5269	Posted - 2016.09.23 17:27:17 - [1697] - Quote Don Pera Saissore wrote: believe it or not but there are players who simply arent interested in pvp Well, kinda hard in this game. Since it is impossible to avoid players and their actions in game, just about everything is PvP if you think of it as one player pursuing his interests relative to another player pursuing hi interests as well. That is, very much of the game is some form of a non-cooperative game. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Sobaan Tali Caldari Quick Reaction Force 1033	Posted - 2016.09.23 17:55:35 - [1698] - Quote Don Pera Saissore wrote: believe it or not but there are players who simply arent interested in pvp True enough, though honestly that's like going to a strip club with no interests in watching others perform erotic dancing, but you like the food. Not saying you're wrong (hell I'm one of those types), I guess it's just that in my head that makes just as much sense is all. That reminds me, there was this one place that had killer fries and their pizza was the best I've ever had. Sucks that it was when I was stationed on Okinawa and will never see it again unless I go back there. Can't remember the name of it anyways. Man, I miss being in my twenties already. "Tomahawks?" "----in' A, right?" "Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each." "----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Galaxy Duck Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing 31	Posted - 2016.09.23 18:44:17 - [1699] - Quote Gneeznow wrote: Serene Repose wrote: LOL. Hooked every damn one of you. "Blah blah blah blah blah." Well played, I didn't see the replies since my forum experience looks like this, but I'm sure the butthurt was very real. It usually is from people who post here for 14 hours a day. Al Nomadi wrote: The CODE. damage to the game simply start to take its accumulative effect. Would you keep playing if you get one of that messages after get suddenly ganked in high sec? : "It gets even worse from here. You have been added to our hitlist, which means the next time our scouts see you in local we will kill you on sight." Also this, new players join game, die ad-nauseum to high sec gankers and quit. I don't blame them tbh, they're cannon fodder even in high sec and they realise it and leave. \o/ This thread has always secretly been about the New Order.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5269	Posted - 2016.09.23 19:58:01 - [1700] - Quote Galaxy Duck wrote: Gneeznow wrote: Serene Repose wrote: LOL. Hooked every damn one of you. "Blah blah blah blah blah." Well played, I didn't see the replies since my forum experience looks like this, but I'm sure the butthurt was very real. It usually is from people who post here for 14 hours a day. Al Nomadi wrote: The CODE. damage to the game simply start to take its accumulative effect. Would you keep playing if you get one of that messages after get suddenly ganked in high sec? : "It gets even worse from here. You have been added to our hitlist, which means the next time our scouts see you in local we will kill you on sight." Also this, new players join game, die ad-nauseum to high sec gankers and quit. I don't blame them tbh, they're cannon fodder even in high sec and they realise it and leave. \o/ This thread has always secretly been about the New Order. Every thread is about the New Order. Because somebody inevitably writes, "Think about all the new bros being killed by CODE.!?!?!?!?!?!?!" "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
KaarBaak Squirrel Team 401	Posted - 2016.09.23 19:58:16 - [1701] - Quote EvE is old, by MMO/game standards. The concurrent player average, much like my one mile run times reflect. 5yr average: 45000 1yr average: 32000 6mo average: 30000 3mo average: 23000 1mo average: 20000 Like myself, declining performance doesn't mean it's not healthy. We'll see how the Alpha clones enhance performance...much like how the little red sports car I'm looking at will enhance mine. Might be all in my head...but it'll be fun for a little while. It's still a little too early to start shopping for cemetery plots, if I have anything to say about it. KB Dum Spiro Spero
R3DRUM The Scope Gallente Federation 31	Posted - 2016.09.23 23:15:11 - [1702] - Quote when was the last time something exciting happened here? goons lost space ? is that exciting ?something in game that made u say wow i love it here. 6vdt taking BOB space is the last time i was here and said wow
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18167	Posted - 2016.09.24 00:17:09 - [1703] - Quote Sobaan Tali wrote: Don Pera Saissore wrote: believe it or not but there are players who simply arent interested in pvp True enough, though honestly that's like going to a strip club with no interests in watching others perform erotic dancing, but you like the food. Not saying you're wrong (hell I'm one of those types), I guess it's just that in my head that makes just as much sense is all. That reminds me, there was this one place that had killer fries and their pizza was the best I've ever had. Sucks that it was when I was stationed on Okinawa and will never see it again unless I go back there. Can't remember the name of it anyways. Man, I miss being in my twenties already. Please. You have access to honey toast and Nectar White peach drinks.
erg cz Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords 489	Posted - 2016.09.24 08:15:07 - [1704] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Actually it's the opposite, people who get illegally killed tend to stay longer. The problem is the 85% who quit having taken part in no PvP which is why it is important to bring back all of the content that has been lost. Proof or never happened. I recall CCP admited, that most player quited after their first PAYED month. You pay and got owned by local bully. Stay or adapt, but who want to stay under such conditions. I am sure it is not a game (awesome space life simulator) it players, who make a problem here. Most of the community do PVP with sense and honor, defending their space, fighting opposite race or simply hunting those, who agreed to be hunted by flying into low sec. But those, who try to fix their badly hurt RL selfesteem by killing unarmed ships in high sec defenetely no content creators but simply kill the game they play. Absolutely free trial extension. Just click the link and get your extra week of Eve for free!
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 1056	Posted - 2016.09.24 08:20:23 - [1705] - Quote erg cz wrote: I recall CCP admited, that most player quited after their first PAYED month. Proof or it never happened. Actually, don't worry about the proof, there isn't any. That never happened. Baltec1 however was correct and it's been posted here many times over the last couple of years. Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5269	Posted - 2016.09.24 08:33:15 - [1706] - Quote erg cz wrote: baltec1 wrote: Actually it's the opposite, people who get illegally killed tend to stay longer. The problem is the 85% who quit having taken part in no PvP which is why it is important to bring back all of the content that has been lost. Proof or never happened. I recall CCP admited, that most player quited after their first PAYED month. You pay and got owned by local bully. Stay or adapt, but who want to stay under such conditions. I am sure it is not a game (awesome space life simulator) it players, who make a problem here. Most of the community do PVP with sense and honor, defending their space, fighting opposite race or simply hunting those, who agreed to be hunted by flying into low sec. But those, who try to fix their badly hurt RL selfesteem by killing unarmed ships in high sec defenetely no content creators but simply kill the game they play. Go to CCP's youtube page, and find the fanfest video discussing this. He is correct. In CCPs analysis showed that 85% of the players who were not ganked stayed with the game the least amount of time. In fact, the ranking went as follows: Most time in game--those who were ganked (1%). Second most time in game--those who were killed "legally" (14%). Least amount of time in game--those who engaged in no PvP (ship to ship at least--85%). "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 121	Posted - 2016.09.24 10:06:11 - [1707] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: erg cz wrote: baltec1 wrote: Actually it's the opposite, people who get illegally killed tend to stay longer. The problem is the 85% who quit having taken part in no PvP which is why it is important to bring back all of the content that has been lost. Proof or never happened. I recall CCP admited, that most player quited after their first PAYED month. You pay and got owned by local bully. Stay or adapt, but who want to stay under such conditions. I am sure it is not a game (awesome space life simulator) it players, who make a problem here. Most of the community do PVP with sense and honor, defending their space, fighting opposite race or simply hunting those, who agreed to be hunted by flying into low sec. But those, who try to fix their badly hurt RL selfesteem by killing unarmed ships in high sec defenetely no content creators but simply kill the game they play. Go to CCP's youtube page, and find the fanfest video discussing this. He is correct. In CCPs analysis showed that 85% of the players who were not ganked stayed with the game the least amount of time. In fact, the ranking went as follows: Most time in game--those who were ganked (1%). Second most time in game--those who were killed "legally" (14%). Least amount of time in game--those who engaged in no PvP (ship to ship at least--85%). 1% Hilarious...
Milla Goodpussy Federal Navy Academy 449	Posted - 2016.09.24 10:22:08 - [1708] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: erg cz wrote: I recall CCP admited, that most player quited after their first PAYED month. Proof or it never happened. Actually, don't worry about the proof, there isn't any. That never happened. Baltec1 however was correct and it's been posted here many times over the last couple of years. that was mentioned by a ccp dev that's no longer with the company during a fan fest round table.. when they opened up and discussed new player experience and began tackling the problem. ccp ytterbium (sp) was the one giving the presentation if i remember correctly.. and yes its very true.. many new bros come and stick around for the trial phase or 1 month worth of time to check out eve online.. just to meet its real sword by gankers, cheap shots, and the scum that exist. sorry dude but its true.. unless the new player finds a decent group or is guided to a decent group.. his or her hopes for survival are slim to none.. too many jerks have ruined the chances of retaining players. this is the raw truth, they increase risk thinking folks enjoy the torture.. some do.. most dont and leave. only insane people will constantly continue trying the same thing over and over again and fail doing so.. this is what ccp continues to try to counter.. yet they keep on failing..i wonder why? perhaps the "play like me" mindset has taken far too much over and killed what was supposed to be a sandbox.. perhaps it was implementation of more gimmicks and ganker toys ( yes you can blatantly see some items were put in just to help out with ganking and griefing..catchphrasing it as "content" and new "gamestyle mechanic".. all of that was just BS. and the smart consumer can see it for what it really is. take a quick look around these parts, you have some of the most rudest, condescending comments on a gaming forum. matter of fact i just read one which would be deemed hostile, overly aggressive and just plain out rude in other gaming forums ( and while the poster who did would be BANNED! from forums for life).. Eve online, CCP, and ISD needs to begin really putting folks in check.. how else are new sign ups going to feel comfortable and welcome when we have so much "forum pvp" here. its no wonder our sub numbers are dropping faster than a rare piece of loot. of course you can remain in denial but once again.. i say.. the real numbers of eve online are now showing and despite the banning of bots and isboxers (which is a good thing).. we have a huge hill to climb to get back up top and break the record for most active logins in a single day. hey remember when ccp tried to brag about us having 500k subs.. where the hec did they go? ooh thats right they blurred truth. thats between two servers or something and surely not all on Tranquility where it matters atleast to main players. will we ever connect to china? doubtful highly doubtful.. so what can we do as a community to get people to play, pay, and stay playing and playing?
Kaivarian Coste Beyond Imports and Exports 85	Posted - 2016.09.24 11:08:32 - [1709] - Quote Dibz wrote: You highlight one of EVE's biggest negatives, i.e. the amount of time it can take to do stuff. Sometimes just getting to where you want to be can take many minutes of warping between gates. Obviously space is big and CCP have to give us that illusion of traveling long distances, so I don't really know what else they could do without ruining other aspects of gameplay. But still, when you look at your route and see 20+ jumps, sometimes it's difficult not think "Meh..." and log off. Yeah, it's a bit of a pickle.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18174	Posted - 2016.09.24 11:56:27 - [1710] - Quote Milla Goodpussy wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: erg cz wrote: I recall CCP admited, that most player quited after their first PAYED month. Proof or it never happened. Actually, don't worry about the proof, there isn't any. That never happened. Baltec1 however was correct and it's been posted here many times over the last couple of years. that was mentioned by a ccp dev that's no longer with the company during a fan fest round table.. when they opened up and discussed new player experience and began tackling the problem. ccp ytterbium (sp) was the one giving the presentation if i remember correctly.. and yes its very true.. many new bros come and stick around for the trial phase or 1 month worth of time to check out eve online.. just to meet its real sword by gankers, cheap shots, and the scum that exist. sorry dude but its true.. unless the new player finds a decent group or is guided to a decent group.. his or her hopes for survival are slim to none.. too many jerks have ruined the chances of retaining players. this is the raw truth, they increase risk thinking folks enjoy the torture.. some do.. most dont and leave. only insane people will constantly continue trying the same thing over and over again and fail doing so.. this is what ccp continues to try to counter.. yet they keep on failing..i wonder why? perhaps the "play like me" mindset has taken far too much over and killed what was supposed to be a sandbox.. perhaps it was implementation of more gimmicks and ganker toys ( yes you can blatantly see some items were put in just to help out with ganking and griefing..catchphrasing it as "content" and new "gamestyle mechanic".. all of that was just BS. and the smart consumer can see it for what it really is. take a quick look around these parts, you have some of the most rudest, condescending comments on a gaming forum. matter of fact i just read one which would be deemed hostile, overly aggressive and just plain out rude in other gaming forums ( and while the poster who did would be BANNED! from forums for life).. Eve online, CCP, and ISD needs to begin really putting folks in check.. how else are new sign ups going to feel comfortable and welcome when we have so much "forum pvp" here. its no wonder our sub numbers are dropping faster than a rare piece of loot. of course you can remain in denial but once again.. i say.. the real numbers of eve online are now showing and despite the banning of bots and isboxers (which is a good thing).. we have a huge hill to climb to get back up top and break the record for most active logins in a single day. hey remember when ccp tried to brag about us having 500k subs.. where the hec did they go? ooh thats right they blurred truth. thats between two servers or something and surely not all on Tranquility where it matters atleast to main players. will we ever connect to china? doubtful highly doubtful.. so what can we do as a community to get people to play, pay, and stay playing and playing? EVE was growing at its fastest rate when there was a lot more pvp. As safety has gone up the player retention has gone down. The reason is very simple, less pvp = less content. There is no evidence at all that any pvp has a negative impact on player retention, all the evidence shows the opposite. The problem is we have lost a huge amount of content over the last 5 years and it's the 85% that take part in no pvp at all that then quit is the problem that needs addressed. We need to reverse the trend of less pvp because pve is never going to keep people interested in this game.
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 2773	Posted - 2016.09.24 12:10:18 - [1711] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: 1% Hilarious... What is so funny? True new players (like those <15 days in the study) don't have anything worth ganking and thus are rarely ganked. Heck, highsec ganking is so rare taken across all players (CONCORD vs player has ~1% of activity of PvP) I bet that less than 1% of any players in a given month are ganked in highsec, although I am sure that number is higher among certain classes of AFK and industrial players. Further, as CCP Quant also showed, highsec destruction only makes up a tiny fraction of (less than %0.2 in March for example) of total highsec trade. Highsec ganking really isn't a significant phenomenon as a part of total economy or player activity as many here on this forum would have you believe. Milla Goodpussy wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: erg cz wrote: I recall CCP admited, that most player quited after their first PAYED month. Proof or it never happened. Actually, don't worry about the proof, there isn't any. That never happened. Baltec1 however was correct and it's been posted here many times over the last couple of years. that was mentioned by a ccp dev that's no longer with the company during a fan fest round table.. when they opened up and discussed new player experience and began tackling the problem. ccp ytterbium (sp) was the one giving the presentation if i remember correctly.. and yes its very true.. many new bros come and stick around for the trial phase or 1 month worth of time to check out eve online.. just to meet its real sword by gankers, cheap shots, and the scum that exist. No, it was CCP Rise (who is indeed still with the company) and was during a whole session entitled Using Science to Help Newbros. You only have to watch the first few minutes, but you will see he does unequivocally state that new players rarely get suicide ganked (~1%), and those that do are the most likely to subscribe to the game. Make of that what you will, but all the evidence CCP shared says that new players are more likely to be bored out of the game than pushed out of the game by being exploded by veteran players. Certainly, there is no evidence that at least for new players, being exploded has any negative effect on retention. The 8 Golden Rules of Eve Why Do They Gank?
Railyn Quisqueya Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 13	Posted - 2016.09.24 14:21:26 - [1712] - Quote baltec1 wrote: EVE was growing at its fastest rate when there was a lot more pvp. As safety has gone up the player retention has gone down. The reason is very simple, less pvp = less content. There is no evidence at all that any pvp has a negative impact on player retention, all the evidence shows the opposite. The problem is we have lost a huge amount of content over the last 5 years and it's the 85% that take part in no pvp at all that then quit is the problem that needs addressed. We need to reverse the trend of less pvp because pve is never going to keep people interested in this game. I have to say, and this very well may be anecdote, the majority of people I have met over the years that played Eve and left, left due to 'grief' play or some experience related to it. Yes, I know this isn't an official poll. But not one implied they left because Eve wasn't hardcore enough or because it was losing its cold. So when I see statements implying that Eve needs to be more hardcore to better retention, it pretty much goes against what I've personally observed. "But what about CCP facts and data and all that?"... I'll just say that CCP isn't exactly known for its transparency or its willingness to engage in topics such as these. In fact, as far as I can tell, devs bring forth bits and pieces of 'evidence' in accordance to their own personal promotional views and agendas, just like players.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18174	Posted - 2016.09.24 14:27:43 - [1713] - Quote Railyn Quisqueya wrote: baltec1 wrote: EVE was growing at its fastest rate when there was a lot more pvp. As safety has gone up the player retention has gone down. The reason is very simple, less pvp = less content. There is no evidence at all that any pvp has a negative impact on player retention, all the evidence shows the opposite. The problem is we have lost a huge amount of content over the last 5 years and it's the 85% that take part in no pvp at all that then quit is the problem that needs addressed. We need to reverse the trend of less pvp because pve is never going to keep people interested in this game. I have to say, and this very well may be anecdote, the majority of people I have met over the years that played Eve and left, left due to 'grief' play or some experience related to it. Yes, I know this isn't an official poll. But not one implied they left because Eve wasn't hardcore enough or because it was losing its cold. So when I see statements implying that Eve needs to be more hardcore to better retention, it pretty much goes against what I've personally observed. "But what about CCP facts and data and all that?"... I'll just say that CCP isn't exactly known for its transparency or its willingness to engage in topics such as these. In fact, as far as I can tell, devs bring forth bits and pieces of 'evidence' in accordance to their own personal promotional views and agendas, just like players. As posted above, its not just Dev personal opinions, these are hard numbers both from CCP and from the data available to us. Its not about making EVE hardcore its about bringing back a lot of lost content. You can't remove a large amount of content from a game and not expect a fall in players.
Railyn Quisqueya Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 13	Posted - 2016.09.24 14:45:53 - [1714] - Quote baltec1 wrote: As posted above, its not just Dev personal opinions, these are hard numbers both from CCP and from the data available to us. Its not about making EVE hardcore its about bringing back a lot of lost content. You can't remove a large amount of content from a game and not expect a fall in players. Your definition of content varies slightly from my definition. I dare say your 'loss of content' revolves around the loss in ability to gank/scam/grief players with ease. And although there have been instances where this is true, you cannot take that statement as a whole and claim this is THE reason player retention is down. In fact, this proves my point that facts are presented in ways that accommodate our personal agendas, just like claiming the *fact* that worldwide piracy has been on a linear decline as global warming rises. It simply makes no sense to me. If it were true and really that simple, why hasn't CCP simply just gone all out and have undone the changes plus add more gravy in the form of your definition of content? This means more subscription, more money, more pants.
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 2773	Posted - 2016.09.24 15:05:39 - [1715] - Quote Railyn Quisqueya wrote: I have to say, and this very well may be anecdote, the majority of people I have met over the years that played Eve and left, left due to 'grief' play or some experience related to it. Yes, I know this isn't an official poll. But not one implied they left because Eve wasn't hardcore enough or because it was losing its cold. So when I see statements implying that Eve needs to be more hardcore to better retention, it pretty much goes against what I've personally observed. "But what about CCP facts and data and all that?"... I'll just say that CCP isn't exactly known for its transparency or its willingness to engage in topics such as these. In fact, as far as I can tell, devs bring forth bits and pieces of 'evidence' in accordance to their own personal promotional views and agendas, just like players. I don't doubt your experience, but it suffers from an extreme form of selection bias - you can only "know" people who quit the game, but not the masses of people that try the game and decide it boring and quit before you get to know them. This is why it has become a 'myth' as CCP describes it because everyone knows or has heard of someone who has rage-quit over a loss, yet no one but CCP knows about the silent majority of potential customers who try the game, but don't make the social contacts or have anything interesting or captivating happen during their trial and thus leave the game. Eve can be a terrible game. Mining alone in highsec with a Venture for a few weeks where nothing happens is not compelling game play in 2016, nor probably even in 2003. Eve Online is suppose to be a living, breathing world where the other players provide the content. Nerfing the chance of that anything happening in highsec which has been the trend in the last 5-6 years, unfortunately also the place most new players start, means that potential long-term customers are treated to a boring, inert first few weeks in the game that doesn't represent much of the game play Eve has to offer. This safety means they barely get a taste of the universe around them, all isolated in their bubble-wrap that well intentioned veteran players and developers have cocooned them in, and they go about 'leveling-up their Raven' like a traditional MMO, ask "is this all there is?", and quit the game. My prescription: better integrate new players into existing player groups, start them in lowsec or somewhere more interesting so they can see some more of the possibilities of Eve, completely revamp the NPE and reverse some of the more content-crippling buffs to highsec safety. Higher retention rates will quickly result in increasing PCUs and reverse the trend of recent years. Given how cagey CCP Seagull was in that recent interview, I think at least some of that will be part of a 'New Player' focused expansion in November. I hope we know more in a few days/weeks. The 8 Golden Rules of Eve Why Do They Gank?
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18176	Posted - 2016.09.24 15:44:52 - [1716] - Quote Railyn Quisqueya wrote: baltec1 wrote: As posted above, its not just Dev personal opinions, these are hard numbers both from CCP and from the data available to us. Its not about making EVE hardcore its about bringing back a lot of lost content. You can't remove a large amount of content from a game and not expect a fall in players. Your definition of content varies slightly from my definition. I dare say your 'loss of content' revolves around the loss in ability to gank/scam/grief players with ease. And although there have been instances where this is true, you cannot take that statement as a whole and claim this is THE reason player retention is down. In fact, this proves my point that facts are presented in ways that accommodate our personal agendas, just like claiming the *fact* that worldwide piracy has been on a linear decline as global warming rises. It simply makes no sense to me. If it were true and really that simple, why hasn't CCP simply just gone all out and have undone the changes plus add more gravy in the form of your definition of content? This means more subscription, more money, more pants. Same reason why CCP has done nothing to balance t3 cruisers and t3 destroyers. Content is content, be it chewing on rocks or firing a DD in a battle over a keepstar. Just because you don't like an activity does not mean that activity should be removed from other players.
Arcelian Metentis 194	Posted - 2016.09.24 16:22:41 - [1717] - Quote I got a RL friend to play for a bit. His biggest complaint, and the reason he ultimately left, is because of how long it takes to do things. Fit a ship, scour space for hours looking for a fight that you won't get absolutely stomped on, get stomped on anyway.....fun times. Not really. Want to get back in to the fight? Well, it's gonna be at least a half hour to get where you can buy anything again. I try to explain that you have to account for things like logistics, but it just seems like a lot of work. And it is. Some thrive on stuff like that, I enjoy working out the small things. That's the exception, not the rule however.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5270	Posted - 2016.09.24 16:48:05 - [1718] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: erg cz wrote: baltec1 wrote: Actually it's the opposite, people who get illegally killed tend to stay longer. The problem is the 85% who quit having taken part in no PvP which is why it is important to bring back all of the content that has been lost. Proof or never happened. I recall CCP admited, that most player quited after their first PAYED month. You pay and got owned by local bully. Stay or adapt, but who want to stay under such conditions. I am sure it is not a game (awesome space life simulator) it players, who make a problem here. Most of the community do PVP with sense and honor, defending their space, fighting opposite race or simply hunting those, who agreed to be hunted by flying into low sec. But those, who try to fix their badly hurt RL selfesteem by killing unarmed ships in high sec defenetely no content creators but simply kill the game they play. Go to CCP's youtube page, and find the fanfest video discussing this. He is correct. In CCPs analysis showed that 85% of the players who were not ganked stayed with the game the least amount of time. In fact, the ranking went as follows: Most time in game--those who were ganked (1%). Second most time in game--those who were killed "legally" (14%). Least amount of time in game--those who engaged in no PvP (ship to ship at least--85%). 1% Hilarious... Yeah, because it totally ruins your narrative. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 121	Posted - 2016.09.24 16:57:32 - [1719] - Quote I think it's the narrative of this game that is slowly ruined, not mine. And the other poster is right imo, everything in Eve online is slow, very slow to do. If you mix it with how easy it is to lose your ship you can imagine the high level of frustration that can potentially lead players to leave the game.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5271	Posted - 2016.09.24 16:57:36 - [1720] - Quote Black Pedro wrote: Make of that what you will, but all the evidence CCP shared says that new players are more likely to be bored out of the game than pushed out of the game by being exploded by veteran players. Certainly, there is no evidence that at least for new players, being exploded has any negative effect on retention. This is a very nice summary. Ganking and PvP lead players to stay longer and retention is really a problem of those not experiencing that and (most likely) being bored out of the game. This is based on empirical evidence. IIRC they found 80,000 accounts (excluding alt accounts) where they were ganked in their first 15 days (note, this does not mean they were 80,000 trial accounts if were in game 2 years at the time of the study and had been ganked in your first 15 days you might have been in the study). But people wave their hands, "That means nothing...." or "That method is flawed [more bullshit hand waving]...." This is why I think ultimately empirical work is not going to change people's minds like Lucy Lollipops. Lucy's mind is made up and no amount of empirical evidence to the contrary will be sufficient. Lucy is best described as dogmatic. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Rain6637 NulzSec 34236	Posted - 2016.09.24 17:07:05 - [1721] - Quote This is pretty clearly a case of a player leaving after they discover the end of unexpected content. I don't think the PVP statistic is a result of another player's influence. It could just as easily be provided by an NPC but the NPC content isn't there. In terms of things that attack you against your will, you can sit in several areas of space, in all security levels, and never be attacked by anyone. Including NPCs. By comparison when you roam around a game like Aion, you get little annoying enemies nibbling at your feet, even in supposedly secure towns. It would take more server load, but what needs to happen is more unexpected content, even if it's using NPCs. It's better than nothingness. If a player is allowed to undock and sit unmolested for even five minutes, that's probably when they begin to think the game is boring. These players who were attacked in PVP were simply the ones who found the continuation of content beyond NPCs. NPC content itself is laughably limited. Traveling through high sec should require some defense or at least a warp core stabilizer. You should expect that if you undock, there will be an NPC or a small group of weak NPCs harassing you at undock, at the gate, and in every system along your route. You should have to fight your way through critter-like NPCs. Depending on players to provide all content is needlessly scarce. Why leave EVE so barren, it's one of the worst shortcomings in an MMO. Scatter NPCs everywhere, they're free. Help, I can't download EVE President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 121	Posted - 2016.09.24 17:09:10 - [1722] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Black Pedro wrote: Make of that what you will, but all the evidence CCP shared says that new players are more likely to be bored out of the game than pushed out of the game by being exploded by veteran players. Certainly, there is no evidence that at least for new players, being exploded has any negative effect on retention. This is a very nice summary. Ganking and PvP lead players to stay longer and retention is really a problem of those not experiencing that and (most likely) being bored out of the game. This is based on empirical evidence. IIRC they found 80,000 accounts (excluding alt accounts) where they were ganked in their first 15 days (note, this does not mean they were 80,000 trial accounts if were in game 2 years at the time of the study and had been ganked in your first 15 days you might have been in the study). But people wave their hands, "That means nothing...." or "That method is flawed [more bullshit hand waving]...." This is why I think ultimately empirical work is not going to change people's minds like Lucy Lollipops. Lucy's mind is made up and no amount of empirical evidence to the contrary will be sufficient. Lucy is best described as dogmatic. The only empirical evidence I see is a little group of players gaining lots of ingame money from hisec ganking. This can be clearly seen. What I think it that it's contributing to the bad reputation of Eve as the only game left for who loves to ruin other game's experience. But personally I don't care at all if my hisec mining alt is ganked, it happend already but the gain/loss rate for me is so positive I really don't care about it at all...
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5272	Posted - 2016.09.24 17:10:17 - [1723] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: I think it's the narrative of this game that is slowly ruined, not mine. And the other poster is right imo, everything in Eve online is slow, very slow to do. If you mix it with how easy it is to lose your ship you can imagine the high level of frustration that can potentially lead players to leave the game. Yes by people like you wanting to nerf the very thing that made it so successful, PvP....including PvP in HS. You know when I first joined there was nothing like CODE. Sure groups of people would gank freighters, but it was far more desultory than now. You could toss 600 million in your freighter set desto and undock and click autopilot. Now....you'd be an idiot to do that. Why? Because HS content has been nerfed into the dirt so all you got is large organized groups providing fun activities...like CODE. who gank freighters and will even do it for ransoms or just the ***** and giggles (although the latter is rare given the plethora of over stuffed freighters). With wardecs you could see 2, 3, 4, etc. war dec corps focusing on just one corp or alliance in HS. Not anymore. So you are half right...but the root of the problem are players like you. Players who wanted to nerf freighter ganking to "balance it on risk". You dimbulbs don't even understand risk preference vs. reward. Not at all. You heard the term risk aversion and you use it like you know what it means, but quite clearly you don't. For example, when one of you dimbulbs say, "There is no risk involved in freighter ganking." Of course there is you ninnys. The freighter pilot is taking high risk. When you put 8 billion in your freighter you are at high(er) risk of getting ganked. Especially if you don't use a scout. Yes, those doing the ganking face low(er) risk, but they face that low(er) risk because they have taken steps to avoid high(er) risk. And how do you balance the risk here when it is players who are taking actions that expose them to various levels of risk. Risk is not something that comes along and happens randomly, it is also based on actions. If you study, for example, the insurance literature you'll see lots of focus on what is known as moral hazard. That is where the insurance company is worried that with an insurance policy the people covered will take less steps to avoid the bad state. That is why they impose a deductible, you don't want to pay the deductible so you'll take steps to avoid the bad state. The lower the deductible the higher the premium because they are exposed to more risk because of the behavior of the insured. In the end people who complain about ganking are sloppy, ignorant, and out right wrong in their use of the words "risk aversion", "risk vs. reward", etc. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5272	Posted - 2016.09.24 17:17:57 - [1724] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: The only empirical evidence I see is a little group of players gaining lots of ingame money from hisec ganking. Focusing on just this part. Why? Why are they obtaining this wealth? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Rain6637 NulzSec 34236	Posted - 2016.09.24 17:21:06 - [1725] - Quote One more thing about scattering NPCs everywhere. It provides a test of the character's skills. If a character is tested by a consistent enemy, the player can sense the benefit of the character's SP and their fitting choices. The NPCs used for this purpose don't even need to give a bounty payout. Their gameplay benefit is the visceral feel of killing them faster based on your SP. One of the best overarching experiences in nullsec as a newbie was fighting Angels rats in Curse. At first all I had was a Cormorant, and then a Caracal. I died quite often to the rats but with each skill and better fitting advice from my corp mentors, I was making progress against them. Then I upgraded to a Drake and the rats began to RUN from me. I couldn't break their tank but that turn of the tide was excellent. You don't find that in high sec unless you take missions, but that can be intimidating and it takes time to talk to agents and go to a mission location. Instead NPCs should spawn at player ships unexpectedly and against their will. Help, I can't download EVE President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 121	Posted - 2016.09.24 17:22:29 - [1726] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: I think it's the narrative of this game that is slowly ruined, not mine. And the other poster is right imo, everything in Eve online is slow, very slow to do. If you mix it with how easy it is to lose your ship you can imagine the high level of frustration that can potentially lead players to leave the game. Yes by people like you wanting to nerf the very thing that made it so successful, PvP....including PvP in HS. You know when I first joined there was nothing like CODE. Sure groups of people would gank freighters, but it was far more desultory than now. You could toss 600 million in your freighter set desto and undock and click autopilot. Now....you'd be an idiot to do that. Why? Because HS content has been nerfed into the dirt so all you got is large organized groups providing fun activities...like CODE. who gank freighters and will even do it for ransoms or just the ***** and giggles (although the latter is rare given the plethora of over stuffed freighters). With wardecs you could see 2, 3, 4, etc. war dec corps focusing on just one corp or alliance in HS. Not anymore. So you are half right...but the root of the problem are players like you. Players who wanted to nerf freighter ganking to "balance it on risk". You dimbulbs don't even understand risk preference vs. reward. Not at all. You heard the term risk aversion and you use it like you know what it means, but quite clearly you don't. For example, when one of you dimbulbs say, "There is no risk involved in freighter ganking." Of course there is you ninnys. The freighter pilot is taking high risk. When you put 8 billion in your freighter you are at high(er) risk of getting ganked. Especially if you don't use a scout. Yes, those doing the ganking face low(er) risk, but they face that low(er) risk because they have taken steps to avoid high(er) risk. And how do you balance the risk here when it is players who are taking actions that expose them to various levels of risk. Risk is not something that comes along and happens randomly, it is also based on actions. If you study, for example, the insurance literature you'll see lots of focus on what is known as moral hazard. That is where the insurance company is worried that with an insurance policy the people covered will take less steps to avoid the bad state. That is why they impose a deductible, you don't want to pay the deductible so you'll take steps to avoid the bad state. The lower the deductible the higher the premium because they are exposed to more risk because of the behavior of the insured. In the end people who complain about ganking are sloppy, ignorant, and out right wrong in their use of the words "risk aversion", "risk vs. reward", etc. I think you have absolutely no idea about how I play eve online. But it's normal for arrogant persons to think they know others perfectly. Honestly I don't care so much about ganking for itself, what I think is quite disgusting is seeing gankers be almost immune to real isk losses and being them so slippery to catch making the fight back almost impossible. While the most disgusting thing is the gankers loss/gain ratio, abnormal and absurd. I have full respect for lowsec players, even for pirates and so on, and for wh and nullsec players. Zero respect for slippery hisec gankers.
Rain6637 NulzSec 34236	Posted - 2016.09.24 17:41:17 - [1727] - Quote did you know high sec ganking is not a problem outside of high sec? Help, I can't download EVE President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 122	Posted - 2016.09.24 17:50:30 - [1728] - Quote Rain6637 wrote: did you know high sec ganking is not a problem outside of high sec? If it ruins the reputation of the game you play and makes your game smaller and smaller it could be a problem for you too, even if your are in null or living in a wh as I usually do.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18176	Posted - 2016.09.24 17:52:54 - [1729] - Quote Rain6637 wrote: This is pretty clearly a case of a player leaving after they discover the end of unexpected content. I don't think the PVP statistic is a result of another player's influence. It could just as easily be provided by an NPC but the NPC content isn't there. NPCs cant replace players.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26898	Posted - 2016.09.24 17:53:33 - [1730] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: I have full respect for lowsec players, even for pirates and so on, and for wh and nullsec players. Zero respect for slippery hisec gankers. Here's the kicker, hisec gankers are often also losec, wh and nullsec players; and their hisec activities extensions of their activities in those areas of space. Civilised behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. New Player FAQ Feyd's Survival Pack
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18176	Posted - 2016.09.24 17:59:05 - [1731] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Rain6637 wrote: did you know high sec ganking is not a problem outside of high sec? If it ruins the reputation of the game you play and makes your game smaller and smaller it could be a problem for you too, even if your are in null or living in a wh as I usually do. Ganking doesn't have any negative impact on player retention. In fact it has a positive impact, CCP have shown this and we have clearly seen it back when mining interdictions happened. Ganking has never ruined the reputation of EVE, it helped to forge the reputation of EVE as the only MMO with actual piracy.
Rain6637 NulzSec 34236	Posted - 2016.09.24 18:18:41 - [1732] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Rain6637 wrote: This is pretty clearly a case of a player leaving after they discover the end of unexpected content. I don't think the PVP statistic is a result of another player's influence. It could just as easily be provided by an NPC but the NPC content isn't there. NPCs cant replace players. What if there are no players to begin with lol Help, I can't download EVE President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Rain6637 NulzSec 34236	Posted - 2016.09.24 18:22:09 - [1733] - Quote how is it replacing players when you can fly around for ten minutes and not get shot and adding NPCs would fix that Help, I can't download EVE President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5272	Posted - 2016.09.24 18:44:53 - [1734] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: I think you have absolutely no idea about how I play eve online. But it's normal for arrogant persons to think they know others perfectly. I know you didn't read my post and so missed the part that risk is based largely on player actions and as such you don't really understand the game. Quote: Honestly I don't care so much about ganking for itself, what I think is quite disgusting is seeing gankers be almost immune to real isk losses and being them so slippery to catch making the fight back almost impossible. So go out there and impose some risk on them. Stop asking CCP do it for you. Quote: While the most disgusting thing is the gankers loss/gain ratio, abnormal and absurd. Why? Why is the loss/gain ratio so absurd. What is the driver here. I know you'll say, "Bad mechanics," but that just highlights how blindingly ignorant you are of things like risk in the game. The game itself provides very, very little risk. Lets look at the mechanics of using a freighter. 1. They are slow. 2. No high/weapon slots. 3. They can carry lots of stuff--i.e. their cargo can be quite valuable. Nowhere in there is "high risk". No really. The risk, for the freighter pilot, comes from his actions and other players understanding of game mechanics. If he puts 750 million in his freighter and uses a scout, his risk is very low. If he puts 7.5 billion in his freighter (and in case you missed it that is a 10x increase in cargo value) and undocks without even a lowly scout his risk has gone up tremendously. The absurd gains gankers are obtaining are due to the absurd levels of risk some freighter pilots are putting on themselves. So my question to you is.... Why do you want to reward the imprudent and foolish? Quote: I have full respect for lowsec players, even for pirates and so on, and for wh and nullsec players. Zero respect for slippery hisec gankers. HS gankers are pirates. The simple definition of piracy, piracty: the act of attacking and stealing from a ship at sea. Seems to fit HS gankers too once we replace "at sea" with "in space". "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18177	Posted - 2016.09.24 18:44:54 - [1735] - Quote Rain6637 wrote: how is it replacing players when you can fly around for ten minutes and not get shot and adding NPCs would fix that Because NPC's can never compete with players. They will never be as dangerous or as adaptable as players, just look at burner missions. They were supposed to be more pvp like but in the end they were farmed the moment the arrived on tranquility. They also don't provide as much content as players.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5272	Posted - 2016.09.24 18:46:13 - [1736] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: The only empirical evidence I see is a little group of players gaining lots of ingame money from hisec ganking. Focusing on just this part. Why? Why are they obtaining this wealth? Can you answer this? Or is it just to inconvenient for your narrative. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Rain6637 NulzSec 34236	Posted - 2016.09.24 19:02:48 - [1737] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Rain6637 wrote: how is it replacing players when you can fly around for ten minutes and not get shot and adding NPCs would fix that Because NPC's can never compete with players. They will never be as dangerous or as adaptable as players, just look at burner missions. They were supposed to be more pvp like but in the end they were farmed the moment the arrived on tranquility. They also don't provide as much content as players. Those statements are true but right now I'm talking about adding NPCs. You can add NPCs without replacing players. are you doing this on purpose? this is a very simple idea. Help, I can't download EVE President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18177	Posted - 2016.09.24 19:06:58 - [1738] - Quote Rain6637 wrote: Those statements are true but right now I'm talking about adding NPCs. You can add NPCs without replacing players. are you doing this on purpose? this is a very simple idea. They did try this with incursions but it got scrapped before it hit tranquility.
Ava Kurvora Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 10	Posted - 2016.09.24 19:11:32 - [1739] - Quote The burden of risk/reward is placed almost entirely on the hauler/miner. The ganker loses out on sec status and a disposable destroyer. What a terrible loss. And still you stupid ******* whine about ganking being nerfed.
Rain6637 NulzSec 34236	Posted - 2016.09.24 19:15:25 - [1740] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Rain6637 wrote: Those statements are true but right now I'm talking about adding NPCs. You can add NPCs without replacing players. are you doing this on purpose? this is a very simple idea. They did try this with incursions but it got scrapped before it hit tranquility. What I'm thinking of is more like adding gate rats to gates and stations 100% of the time. So like incursion rats but weaker, perhaps just one long point in the whole gang of NPCs so you can evade with a core stab. For the sake of forcing interaction with the game world, unlike right now where the game is emptyyyy. And yeah there are other players in high sec (for example) but they're not guaranteed to shoot you. You also can't shoot them immediately or without consequence. My main point is that EVE feels empty very quickly and could use more critters. It was a really great point that a player will probably notice something is wrong when they can fly around for five minutes without any interaction with the game. Help, I can't download EVE President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18177	Posted - 2016.09.24 19:19:00 - [1741] - Quote Rain6637 wrote: baltec1 wrote: Rain6637 wrote: Those statements are true but right now I'm talking about adding NPCs. You can add NPCs without replacing players. are you doing this on purpose? this is a very simple idea. They did try this with incursions but it got scrapped before it hit tranquility. What I'm thinking of is more like adding gate rats to gates and stations 100% of the time. So like incursion rats but weaker, perhaps just one long point in the whole gang of NPCs so you can evade with a core stab. For the sake of forcing interaction with the game world, unlike right now where the game is emptyyyy. And yeah there are other players in high sec (for example) but they're not guaranteed to shoot you. You also can't shoot them immediately or without consequence. My main point is that EVE feels empty very quickly and could use more critters. It was a really great point that a player will probably notice something is wrong when they can fly around for five minutes without any interaction with the game. Its a fair enough point.
Rain6637 NulzSec 34238	Posted - 2016.09.24 19:22:00 - [1742] - Quote Wouldn't it be cooler if rats chased you in warp around system even though they're weak. If they were a nuisance that found you and forced you to deal with them if you want to stay in system. There's also the concept of NPC trains that chase a player through the world. Maybe don't let it get ridiculous but at least make a player decide whether to linger or leave. Help, I can't download EVE President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5272	Posted - 2016.09.24 19:22:41 - [1743] - Quote Ava Kurvora wrote: The burden of risk/reward is placed almost entirely on the hauler/miner. The ganker loses out on sec status and a disposable destroyer. What a terrible loss. And still you stupid ******* whine about ganking being nerfed. No, you are just being deliberately obtuse. The burden in not placed on the hauler...the hauler is taking on that risk. Either out of ignorance or out of stupidity. Edit: Also, you should stop talking about risk/reward you are clearly clueless on the topic. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5272	Posted - 2016.09.24 19:23:36 - [1744] - Quote Rain6637 wrote: Wouldn't it be cooler if rats chased you in warp around system even though they're weak. If they were a nuisance that found you and forced you to deal with them if you want to stay in system. There's also the concept of NPC trains that chase a player through the world. Maybe don't let it get ridiculous but at least make a player decide whether to linger or leave. Hmmm...better than nothing I guess. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Rain6637 NulzSec 34238	Posted - 2016.09.24 19:28:06 - [1745] - Quote I don't have it in me to deal with that place right now lol Help, I can't download EVE President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Ava Kurvora Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 10	Posted - 2016.09.24 19:39:13 - [1746] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Ava Kurvora wrote: The burden of risk/reward is placed almost entirely on the hauler/miner. The ganker loses out on sec status and a disposable destroyer. What a terrible loss. And still you stupid ***** whine about ganking being nerfed. No, you are just being deliberately obtuse. The burden in not placed on the hauler...the hauler is taking on that risk. Either out of ignorance or out of stupidity. Edit: Also, you should stop talking about risk/reward you are clearly clueless on the topic. No, you're just a stupid piece of who's mad because it takes a little bit more effort than in the past to gank someone, even though its still incredibly easy. Like every other elitist ** on these forums, you don't know how to have fun when your not ruining someone else's day. The hauler has to take into account all manner of logistics and how many assholes he may or may not encounter. The burden is placed almost entirely on him. The ganker is free to do as he pleases, with little to no consequence.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5273	Posted - 2016.09.24 19:45:36 - [1747] - Quote Ava Kurvora wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Ava Kurvora wrote: The burden of risk/reward is placed almost entirely on the hauler/miner. The ganker loses out on sec status and a disposable destroyer. What a terrible loss. And still you stupid ***** whine about ganking being nerfed. No, you are just being deliberately obtuse. The burden in not placed on the hauler...the hauler is taking on that risk. Either out of ignorance or out of stupidity. Edit: Also, you should stop talking about risk/reward you are clearly clueless on the topic. No, you're just a stupid piece of who's mad because it takes a little bit more effort than in the past to gank someone, even though its still incredibly easy. Like every other elitist ** on these forums, you don't know how to have fun when your not ruining someone else's day. The hauler has to take into account all manner of logistics and how many assholes he may or may not encounter. The burden is placed almost entirely on him. The ganker is free to do as he pleases, with little to no consequence. I have only ganked during Burn Jita/Amarr events. So there goes your entire argument. It is well past time for you to grow up, BTW. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18179	Posted - 2016.09.24 21:22:01 - [1748] - Quote Ava Kurvora wrote: No, you're just a stupid piece of ** who's mad because it takes a little bit more effort than in the past to gank someone, even though its still incredibly easy. Like every other elitist on these forums, you don't know how to have fun when your not ruining someone else's day. The hauler has to take into account all manner of logistics and how many assholes he may or may not encounter. The burden is placed almost entirely on him. The ganker is free to do as he pleases, with little to no consequence. This burden being a less than 0.2% chance to be ganked over 1.8 million jumps. Incidentally, who is the bigger elitist ** here? The guy playing pirate or the guy who gets entire play styles enjoyed by thousands removed from the game?
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5276	Posted - 2016.09.25 05:41:16 - [1749] - Quote So, if I were going to create an insurance company in game here is how it would work: Based on player data on actions, cargo, travel distance (in jumps), system security status, possibly including variables for Uedama and Niarja IGÇÖd come up with a set of contracts with premiums, deductibles and payoffs in the event of the insuree being ganked. Also, thereGÇÖd be conditions in these contracts related to the maximum value of the cargo. For example, the limit, based on the above data might be 1.25 billion ISK. Anything above that the contract would be void and no payout would be given. The idea here is that some of these provisions would be there to keep the freighter pilot from being imprudent and thus changing my levels of risk. After all, I am insuring his stuff. So I want to set some barriers to act as an incentive to protect myself which incidentally if the freighter pilot adheres too will help him too. Now, we canGÇÖt do any of this in game because we donGÇÖt have a legal system where disputes can be resolved with some degree of consistency and objectivity. Further, given that there is no perma death and sending ships and pilots after say baltec1 for deliberately violating a contract to his benefit would do nothing but give him and his friends GÇ£contentGÇ¥. Granted I and my friends would also have GÇ£contentGÇ¥ but as my wallet is not infinitely deep I could not keep this up indefinitely and IGÇÖd go broke. But the point here is that risk can be mitigated, shared, and even transferred. Further, you can change the risk other players face as well. A point that is lost of every single person who complains about ganking. You want there to be more risk for those who engage in ganking...go impose that risk on them. A t1 fit catalyst can certainly burn down a t2 fit gank catalyst. Get an FC, get a prober, get voice comms, get the ships in Uedama, and go land in the middle of the gank fleet and gank them. Have your loot scooper come in and get what he can. Get in your t1 fit catalysts and go burn down the bumping ship. TL;DR, every person complaining about ganking can't tell their ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to risk, risk vs. reward, and don't know what the **** risk aversion means. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Galaxy Duck Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing 31	Posted - 2016.09.25 17:17:11 - [1750] - Quote Ava Kurvora wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Ava Kurvora wrote: The burden of risk/reward is placed almost entirely on the hauler/miner. The ganker loses out on sec status and a disposable destroyer. What a terrible loss. And still you stupid ***** whine about ganking being nerfed. No, you are just being deliberately obtuse. The burden in not placed on the hauler...the hauler is taking on that risk. Either out of ignorance or out of stupidity. Edit: Also, you should stop talking about risk/reward you are clearly clueless on the topic. No, you're just a stupid piece of who's mad because it takes a little bit more effort than in the past to gank someone, even though its still incredibly easy. Like every other elitist on these forums, you don't know how to have fun when your not ruining someone else's day. The hauler has to take into account all manner of logistics and how many assholes he may or may not encounter. The burden is placed almost entirely on him. The ganker is free to do as he pleases, with little to no consequence. Lol, it's just so unfair, isn't it. Tell me again how awful gankers are while you call people stupid pieces of **.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 1065	Posted - 2016.09.25 18:28:57 - [1751] - Quote Milla Goodpussy wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: erg cz wrote: I recall CCP admited, that most player quited after their first PAYED month. Proof or it never happened. Actually, don't worry about the proof, there isn't any. That never happened. Baltec1 however was correct and it's been posted here many times over the last couple of years. that was mentioned by a ccp dev that's no longer with the company during a fan fest round table.. when they opened up and discussed new player experience and began tackling the problem. ccp ytterbium (sp) was the one giving the presentation if i remember correctly.. and yes its very true. Then link it. It was not said that most quit after their first paid month. Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2433	Posted - 2016.09.25 19:52:16 - [1752] - Quote There should be NPC Battleships and Dreads in hisec, that is one of the reason people leave the game, they go to the belts expecting to find some nasty pirate and get shot by a pipsqueak, kills their immersion totally.... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Plutonia Quorum Inc. 0	Posted - 2016.09.26 17:43:19 - [1753] - Quote CowQueen MMXII wrote: There is no inflation in EVE, only thing getting more expensive is Plex and even that drpped significantly in the last few months. Last There is most def. inflation and deflations in EvE. Isk is only the most common monetary goods for trade, as it is the most liquid. And that also makes it the most representetative for value of other goods. When i started EvE Isk were not as valuable as they are today.. Monetary value or financial instruments, is closely relsted to the productivity of an economy. And in someways we could even describe different currencies in different regions. So isk has different value depending on the region your in. So WHAT you are doing as a trader is making a buck on the difference in inflation over different regions.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5278	Posted - 2016.09.26 18:10:16 - [1754] - Quote Plutonia wrote: CowQueen MMXII wrote: There is no inflation in EVE, only thing getting more expensive is Plex and even that drpped significantly in the last few months. Last There is most def. inflation and deflations in EvE. Isk is only the most common monetary goods for trade, as it is the most liquid. And that also makes it the most representetative for value of other goods. When i started EvE Isk were not as valuable as they are today.. Monetary value or financial instruments, is closely relsted to the productivity of an economy. And in someways we could even describe different currencies in different regions. So isk has different value depending on the region your in. So WHAT you are doing as a trader is making a buck on the difference in inflation over different regions. Inflation is generally considered a monetary phenomenon--i.e. it is related to how fast the money supply is growing. Price differentials between regions is most likely not due to inflation, but due to differences in supply and demand. Also, how thick the markets are--that is you can expect greater price variation in a market that is not that thick. All that being said, the inflation question in Eve is a bit different than IRL. One thing is if a player leaves the game, he is in effect also "taking his ISK with him". That is, the financial markets in Eve are extremely stunted--i.e. the mechanisms in place to allow for borrowing in lending are very limited and they only work for players who are still playing. So when a player with 50 billion leaves the game, that money has also left the game--i.e. the money supply has shrunk. Also, even while he was playing if that 50 billion was sitting primarily in his wallet it was having little effect on the economy as well--i.e. it was probably not being lent out for others to put it to work, so to speak. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Keko Khaan Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 133	Posted - 2016.09.26 20:38:36 - [1755] - Quote Denavit wrote: Is is because PLEX prices, i remember buying them at 550mill, 500mill, now is almost 1bill, or is it because the changes are making oldSchoolers quit? No not just PLEX price. For me it was mostly changes i didnt want and didnt like. Fozziesov and Phoebe was biggest reasons for me to unsub for almost two years. Ofc rising PLEX prices affected my decission aswell hard to keep multiple accounts subbed with current prices. Back when i started they were like 300mil/piece. Alltho i have always been paying customer but just cant justify or even afford to run multiple accounts with credit card. Just recently subbed one of my accounts back in game inspired by upcoming clone states. Time will show if they will be any use as "free" alt account(s) but id hope so. However im still buggered and salty about fozziesv, fatigue, phoebe and stuff. What that means for me that i have less options to do in game so no null, entosis, caps or any of that stupid crap they changed. I actually liked old sov with its structure bashes and ppl actually being able to use their expensive caps they used so long to train for. Atleast there is still lowsecs and wh's to spend time in...
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 18116	Posted - 2016.09.26 21:01:11 - [1756] - Quote Keko Khaan wrote: Denavit wrote: Is is because PLEX prices, i remember buying them at 550mill, 500mill, now is almost 1bill, or is it because the changes are making oldSchoolers quit? No not just PLEX price. For me it was mostly changes i didnt want and didnt like. Fozziesov and Phoebe was biggest reasons for me to unsub for almost two years. Ofc rising PLEX prices affected my decission aswell hard to keep multiple accounts subbed with current prices. Back when i started they were like 300mil/piece. Alltho i have always been paying customer but just cant justify or even afford to run multiple accounts with credit card. Just recently subbed one of my accounts back in game inspired by upcoming clone states. Time will show if they will be any use as "free" alt account(s) but id hope so. However im still buggered and salty about fozziesv, fatigue, phoebe and stuff. What that means for me that i have less options to do in game so no null, entosis, caps or any of that stupid crap they changed. I actually liked old sov with its structure bashes and ppl actually being able to use their expensive caps they used so long to train for. Atleast there is still lowsecs and wh's to spend time in... People who put less energy into sulking and more into adapting use their caps plenty, as even a cursory glance at eg: zkill will show. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
Keko Khaan Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 133	Posted - 2016.09.26 21:55:11 - [1757] - Quote Malcanis wrote: Keko Khaan wrote: Denavit wrote: Is is because PLEX prices, i remember buying them at 550mill, 500mill, now is almost 1bill, or is it because the changes are making oldSchoolers quit? No not just PLEX price. For me it was mostly changes i didnt want and didnt like. Fozziesov and Phoebe was biggest reasons for me to unsub for almost two years. Ofc rising PLEX prices affected my decission aswell hard to keep multiple accounts subbed with current prices. Back when i started they were like 300mil/piece. Alltho i have always been paying customer but just cant justify or even afford to run multiple accounts with credit card. Just recently subbed one of my accounts back in game inspired by upcoming clone states. Time will show if they will be any use as "free" alt account(s) but id hope so. However im still buggered and salty about fozziesv, fatigue, phoebe and stuff. What that means for me that i have less options to do in game so no null, entosis, caps or any of that stupid crap they changed. I actually liked old sov with its structure bashes and ppl actually being able to use their expensive caps they used so long to train for. Atleast there is still lowsecs and wh's to spend time in... People who put less energy into sulking and more into adapting use their caps plenty, as even a cursory glance at eg: zkill will show. Who cares? Doesnt help with all the other problems i mentioned in post above. And doesnt still make caps jump longer. Doesnt either take away fatigue or give old sov back. So yea.. Besides how its your business anyway? OP asked and i told him why i unsubbed and why i still have less accounts subbed/logged. So you go adapt as much you want i did too by unsubbing.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26909	Posted - 2016.09.26 22:29:59 - [1758] - Quote Keko Khaan wrote: So yea you go adapt as much you want i did too by unsubbing. Adapting would require that you change the way you play, not playing at all is running away. Civilised behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. New Player FAQ Feyd's Survival Pack
Morgan Zarkov Viziam Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2016.09.26 22:53:50 - [1759] - Quote [quote=Yun Kuai]In my own personal opinion, I feel there are 4 main reaons why the player count is no longer at the 45k average and peaking in the 60k numbers about 5 years ago. 1) The biggest problem area is that in my almost 8 of years of playing, the game's core mechanics (read pve) are almost exactly the same as when I started. That means 8 years of grinding the same anoms, the same missions, the same mining, the same industry, the same incursions, etc. I strongly agree with his first point. Save burner missions little has been done for pve in a long time. No matter how much you love the game, you can only grind the same anoms, missions for so long.
Onictus The Scope Gallente Federation 948	Posted - 2016.09.27 01:44:26 - [1760] - Quote Malcanis wrote: Keko Khaan wrote: Denavit wrote: Is is because PLEX prices, i remember buying them at 550mill, 500mill, now is almost 1bill, or is it because the changes are making oldSchoolers quit? No not just PLEX price. For me it was mostly changes i didnt want and didnt like. Fozziesov and Phoebe was biggest reasons for me to unsub for almost two years. Ofc rising PLEX prices affected my decission aswell hard to keep multiple accounts subbed with current prices. Back when i started they were like 300mil/piece. Alltho i have always been paying customer but just cant justify or even afford to run multiple accounts with credit card. Just recently subbed one of my accounts back in game inspired by upcoming clone states. Time will show if they will be any use as "free" alt account(s) but id hope so. However im still buggered and salty about fozziesv, fatigue, phoebe and stuff. What that means for me that i have less options to do in game so no null, entosis, caps or any of that stupid crap they changed. I actually liked old sov with its structure bashes and ppl actually being able to use their expensive caps they used so long to train for. Atleast there is still lowsecs and wh's to spend time in... People who put less energy into sulking and more into adapting use their caps plenty, as even a cursory glance at eg: zkill will show. If by adapting you mean fire sale and buying again...yeah, that is what is happening. Null was annoying enough getting things around if you weren't doing it in a full corp/alliance move-op. Yeah I can't be bothered.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5278	Posted - 2016.09.27 03:18:29 - [1761] - Quote Onictus wrote: Malcanis wrote: Keko Khaan wrote: Denavit wrote: Is is because PLEX prices, i remember buying them at 550mill, 500mill, now is almost 1bill, or is it because the changes are making oldSchoolers quit? No not just PLEX price. For me it was mostly changes i didnt want and didnt like. Fozziesov and Phoebe was biggest reasons for me to unsub for almost two years. Ofc rising PLEX prices affected my decission aswell hard to keep multiple accounts subbed with current prices. Back when i started they were like 300mil/piece. Alltho i have always been paying customer but just cant justify or even afford to run multiple accounts with credit card. Just recently subbed one of my accounts back in game inspired by upcoming clone states. Time will show if they will be any use as "free" alt account(s) but id hope so. However im still buggered and salty about fozziesv, fatigue, phoebe and stuff. What that means for me that i have less options to do in game so no null, entosis, caps or any of that stupid crap they changed. I actually liked old sov with its structure bashes and ppl actually being able to use their expensive caps they used so long to train for. Atleast there is still lowsecs and wh's to spend time in... People who put less energy into sulking and more into adapting use their caps plenty, as even a cursory glance at eg: zkill will show. If by adapting you mean fire sale and buying again...yeah, that is what is happening. Null was annoying enough getting things around if you weren't doing it in a full corp/alliance move-op. Yeah I can't be bothered. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
March rabbit Mosquito Squadron The-Culture 1901	Posted - 2016.09.27 04:45:36 - [1762] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Keko Khaan wrote: So yea you go adapt as much you want i did too by unsubbing. Adapting would require that you change the way you play, not playing at all is running away. it's still adapting. Not the way YOU (and CCP) would like but it is. For example: you came to cinema to watch something spaceship starwars related. And suddenly at some point spaceships turned to dogs and you find yourself watching some christmas film. Now you could 'adapt': try to enjoy it or leave and get your enjoyment somewhere else. The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18212	Posted - 2016.09.27 09:28:38 - [1763] - Quote March rabbit wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Keko Khaan wrote: So yea you go adapt as much you want i did too by unsubbing. Adapting would require that you change the way you play, not playing at all is running away. it's still adapting. Not the way YOU (and CCP) would like but it is. For example: you came to cinema to watch something spaceship starwars related. And suddenly at some point spaceships turned to dogs and you find yourself watching some christmas film. Now you could 'adapt': try to enjoy it or leave and get your enjoyment somewhere else. Quitting is not adapting, it's quitting. That said, the jump changes were needed.
March rabbit Mosquito Squadron The-Culture 1902	Posted - 2016.09.27 09:56:02 - [1764] - Quote baltec1 wrote: March rabbit wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Keko Khaan wrote: So yea you go adapt as much you want i did too by unsubbing. Adapting would require that you change the way you play, not playing at all is running away. it's still adapting. Not the way YOU (and CCP) would like but it is. For example: you came to cinema to watch something spaceship starwars related. And suddenly at some point spaceships turned to dogs and you find yourself watching some christmas film. Now you could 'adapt': try to enjoy it or leave and get your enjoyment somewhere else. Quitting is not adapting, it's quitting. It's semantics. You are talking from the game POV. Me - about POV of customer. The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Johan Civire Caldari Provisions Caldari State 1111	Posted - 2016.09.28 01:16:51 - [1765] - Quote CCP abandon there strength and the want to trust there income so the made some radical change. Player base is stable for now but only half the power the had. The will never get as many people before the drop. Now the even made it more change. SP buying / ISK buying. So what`s the point of subscribe again? If you can wait out if there is a new ship sell your SP and buy new SP and invest in SP for that ship? There is no need to play just buy a plex and your done. No ship lost no danger. No risk. This is what eve is become. And we are still going deeper in that hole. But atleast the numbers are stable. If the just invest in a diffrend area than this game can become more than just a click from a to b and press f1 to play game!.
Galaxy Duck Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing 32	Posted - 2016.09.28 03:10:30 - [1766] - Quote Johan Civire wrote: CCP abandon there strength and the want to trust there income so the made some radical change. Player base is stable for now but only half the power the had. The will never get as many people before the drop. Now the even made it more change. SP buying / ISK buying. So what`s the point of subscribe again? If you can wait out if there is a new ship sell your SP and buy new SP and invest in SP for that ship? There is no need to play just buy a plex and your done. No ship lost no danger. No risk. This is what eve is become. And we are still going deeper in that hole. But atleast the numbers are stable. If the just invest in a diffrend area than this game can become more than just a click from a to b and press f1 to play game!. Not one coherent thought or sentence, whole post.
Galaxy Duck Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing 32	Posted - 2016.09.28 03:14:25 - [1767] - Quote Morgan Zarkov wrote: [quote=Yun Kuai]In my own personal opinion, I feel there are 4 main reaons why the player count is no longer at the 45k average and peaking in the 60k numbers about 5 years ago. 1) The biggest problem area is that in my almost 8 of years of playing, the game's core mechanics (read pve) are almost exactly the same as when I started. That means 8 years of grinding the same anoms, the same missions, the same mining, the same industry, the same incursions, etc. I strongly agree with his first point. Save burner missions little has been done for pve in a long time. No matter how much you love the game, you can only grind the same anoms, missions for so long. I know right?!? It's almost like they didn't intend for people to farm the same crappy PVE for years and years. It's ALMOST like, that's not the aspect of the game they intend to showcase at all!
Rain6637 NulzSec 34240	Posted - 2016.09.28 05:10:37 - [1768] - Quote Galaxy Duck wrote: Morgan Zarkov wrote: [quote=Yun Kuai]In my own personal opinion, I feel there are 4 main reaons why the player count is no longer at the 45k average and peaking in the 60k numbers about 5 years ago. 1) The biggest problem area is that in my almost 8 of years of playing, the game's core mechanics (read pve) are almost exactly the same as when I started. That means 8 years of grinding the same anoms, the same missions, the same mining, the same industry, the same incursions, etc. I strongly agree with his first point. Save burner missions little has been done for pve in a long time. No matter how much you love the game, you can only grind the same anoms, missions for so long. I know right?!? It's almost like they didn't intend for people to farm the same crappy PVE for years and years. It's ALMOST like, that's not the aspect of the game they intend to showcase at all! meh. I wouldn't go that far to say it's about the game. PVE is a game experience that works, and perhaps it's a bit much to expect it to keep a player entertained over a long period of time. I think if you roll back expectations of what the game can do for amusement, it will seem fine. It's not a new concept to replay a game despite it being the same every time. You usually go into it realizing a video game won't challenge you in new and unexpected ways. It was only programmed to work one way and you learn it. Learning and adapting is a very basic human thing, it's going to happen. If someone is playing a video game I hope their time is forfeit and they're looking for a very basic thing to do while passing the time. It's odd to me when people place so much burden on a game they pay $15 USD a month for. Over the number of hours some of us play, that's like a quarter per hour. What entertainment experience does anyone have that comes close to providing that much value. Help, I can't download EVE President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
xxxTRUSTxxx Galactic Rangers EVEolution. 511	Posted - 2016.09.28 08:32:46 - [1769] - Quote Johan Civire wrote: CCP abandon there strength and the want to trust there income so the made some radical change. Player base is stable for now but only half the power the had. The will never get as many people before the drop. Now the even made it more change. SP buying / ISK buying. So what`s the point of subscribe again? If you can wait out if there is a new ship sell your SP and buy new SP and invest in SP for that ship? There is no need to play just buy a plex and your done. No ship lost no danger. No risk. This is what eve is become. And we are still going deeper in that hole. But atleast the numbers are stable. If the just invest in a diffrend area than this game can become more than just a click from a to b and press f1 to play game!. every game i've ever played is based on go to A do whatever you're asked to do, proceed to B follow instructions in mission, press whatever key is needed to operate the game. repeat process until it bores you stupid, take a break,, do it all over again. every year a new post pops up regarding the future death of this game, every year they're wrong, but i'm sure one day they'll be right and it will end. even a broken clock tells the time correctly twice a day. I'd like to see the whole mission system revamped, it is very old now and could do with some love. but do remember, all these missions in game to a new player are just amazing, so it's a vet issue not a new guy issue.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14768	Posted - 2016.09.28 14:03:38 - [1770] - Quote Morgan Zarkov wrote: No matter how much you love the game, you can only grind the same anoms, missions for so long. This is obvioulsy not true at all. Look at dotlan, see where the npc kills are across EVE. CCP has tried new PVE content for years, starting withLvl 5 missions, FW missions, womrhole pve, incursions, burners, drifters, clone soldiers, epic arcs, pirate epic arcs etc etc. Yet what are most PVE players doing? ANOMS and MISSIONS, most created before 2006. Most post 2006 PVE is underused, in some cases severely so. Why do people keep doing missions and anoms rather than the 'new fun stuff? Several reasons: #1. Accessibility: Missions and anoms are easy to find and redoable. All the post 2006 PVE requires you to either go someplace you don't want to go or jump through hoops you don't want to jump through. #2. Comfort: It's easy to get comfortable enough in a short time as a missions runner or anomaly farmer, where as it's eithee impossible with other PVE (yea, get comfortable as a wormhole ratter lol) or takes a long time to get there (burner blitzing and incursion running are two examples of things that take a lot of investment and skill time/money). #2.5 Reliability. Anoms pay cash, missions pay a little cash but mostly LP that people know how to convert. Other forms of PVE either have weird restrictions (epic arcs once every 3-6 months only) or move around (incursions) or have to be hunted down (officer spawns, clone soldiers, wormholes) etc etc. #3. (and this one is the big one, something that almost no one understands) Renew-ability. MOST post 2006 PVE pidgeon holes you into a very few ways to tackle it. Sure you can do lvl 5 missions in something other than a carrier, but it would be stupid to do so. in high sec incursions, you options are usually "battleship" or "logi". There are different ways to do different levels of wormholes, but at the end of the day, the safest/fastest option wins. You can tinker a bit with burner missions, but at the end of the day, the answer is usually Garmur or Gila. With missions and anomalies you have lots of choices and thus can "renew" your experience when an old way gets boring.. You can do lvl 4s with Assault frigs for more challenge, you can blitz lvl 3s with Machs or ishtars or tengus, or you can do Anomalies with Smartbombs or even acual bombs from bombers (yes, i've used a bomber to bomb the spawns of forsake hubs while my mach was at zero ) . Some people carrier/super carrier rat, others of us stick with sub capitals (i prefer battleship sized ratting ships because of the MJD "get out of jail free card"). Lots of people afk anoms with drone ships, where as others use Attack Battlecruisers and stand off at range and plink away. Anomalies and missions are GREAT if you like to tinker with fits and experiment with under used modules. I have an honest to Goodness Burst Jammer/Target lock breaker Ratting Rattlesnake that actually works lol. And because you have soooo many options to try new stuff, the staleness of the actual content in missions and anoms doesn't matter as much , at least for 'professional' EVE pve pilots. Reasons vary for each individual, but again, there is a reason why most of us who pve ignore the new stuff and run the old stuff. People who clamor for "better PVE" don't really know what they are talking about.
Mr Fizz Industrial Waste Removal Services 0	Posted - 2016.09.28 17:35:09 - [1771] - Quote Played Eve quite a lot at one time, about four years ago, maybe longer. I became saddened when the game gravitated to GÇÿspoiling your dayGÇÖ. Missions soon become boring in my opinion, and the newer missions that were introduced seemed only to serve as a ganking point for players hell bent on destroying your ship and having a laugh at your expense. I still contribute, and am still training a character, and that is sad because I have had characters and deleted them for whatever reason, but never got back the Credits for the lost training on the deleted character. And why should not I get back those credits, after all, it is the only thing you get to retain for your monthly subscription fee. The game is unattractive; those besting you have often insane skill levels so the playing field is way too uneven. Safe zones for non-pvp players have been eroded and the introduction of player owned stations etcetera meant that long term players have more opportunities to drain the resolve, resources and desire from newer players. Once you leave the training quests behind, the game is flat out boring. The market is the very best marketplace in any MMO I have come across, however, the ability to be cheated, scammed and otherwise robbed is way too prevalent and supported by the devs to ensure that fairness is stacked only to those long term players who have learned how to cheat and connive. Manufacturing used to be a worthwhile event. Mine a bit, make things, sell them on the market was a gameplay style I enjoyed. Then came planetary games and the whole concept was spoiled. It was in effect a mini game that made no sense. Now I understand player owned stations can charge you for making planet based stuff so no fun there anymore. Unless you own the planet station I guess. But, do I want to spend my time endlessly farming to buy another ship for some ass wipe to blow up for no reason? The Orca was once a great ship, it meant I could get my gear to market, but some people do not like that and now the Orca is a gankers delight. So why bother. I donGÇÖt anymore. Just pay to let my character earn for whatever reason once seemed important. Now, to play the game, laugh, do me a favour, itGÇÖs broke and the devs only seem to want to make things better for the lifetime wingers with billions of skill points and no personality. There is no respect in the game anymore, people seem to want to lie to you, cheat from you and use all the abuse you can imagine to make you feel uncomfortable, I admit then, the biggest inhibition to wanting to play this game is not the devs, itGÇÖs the other players and then the devs.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5279	Posted - 2016.09.28 17:42:03 - [1772] - Quote Mr Fizz wrote: Played Eve quite a lot at one time, about four years ago, maybe longer. I became saddened when the game gravitated to GÇÿspoiling your dayGÇÖ. It has always been that way. http://eve-history.net/wiki/index.php/M0o_Corp Quote: m0o Corp, a.k.a. Masters of Ownage, was originally created by former players of a Counter-Strike clan by the same name. The corporation first became famous for its pirate operations in southern Lonetrek, resulting in unparalleled community and developer response. They are one of few corporations which can pride themselves in having forced CCP to change or add features to the game. Known mostly for their PVP prowess, in-your-face attitudes and infamous reputations, they are considered to be the original pirates and serial killers of EVE. The success of m0o corp. can be attributed to many things. A combination of skill, innovation and knowledge created the most effective fighting unit in the game. Many accused them of exploiting game mechanics and using unfair tactics. These allogations have been continuously denied and explained by m0o pilots on many occasions. The original m0o never grew to more than about 15 members, with 10 about or so active at any given time. Starting in June 2003, about one month after the release of EVE Online, m0o started heavy pirate operations in southern Lonetrek. With only a handful of ships, one of the biggest chokepoints in empire space, Mara, became almost completely closed off. Destroying over 200 ships on the first day, and thousands in the weeks to follow, the players of EVE were just beginning to see the havoc m0o would cause. Many pilots and corporations would try to fight back and remove the threat. Most had one thing in common; failure. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5280	Posted - 2016.09.28 17:47:58 - [1773] - Quote Mr Fizz wrote: Safe zones for non-pvp players have been eroded and the introduction of player owned stations etcetera meant that long term players have more opportunities to drain the resolve, resources and desire from newer players. No. There is no "safe" only safer zones with HS being the safest (still with some variation). Frankly, you seem to just not understand the fundamental nature of the game. I can, if I am willing to accept the repercussions, shoot you anywhere in game. If you do not like that, there is one solution and only one: quit. And if anything, shooting players in HS has been repeatedly nerfed over the years. Used to be you could destroy CONCORD, I was reading about it over at the now defunct Battle Clinic forums. CONCORD response times have been reduced. Insurance for ganking has been removed. In regards to wardecs, the removal of the watchlist was probably a bad move too as it has made targeted wardecs pretty damn hard to do now. Seems pretty clear we have very different views on the game we are playing...and you don't want to accept the realities that there is no "safe" space and I can shoot you in HS, LS, or NS provided I am willing to accept the consequences. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14775	Posted - 2016.09.28 21:48:55 - [1774] - Quote Mr Fizz wrote: Played Eve quite a lot at one time, about four years ago, maybe longer. I became saddened when the game gravitated to GÇÿspoiling your dayGÇÖ. Missions soon become boring in my opinion, and the newer missions that were introduced seemed only to serve as a ganking point for players hell bent on destroying your ship and having a laugh at your expense. I still contribute, and am still training a character, and that is sad because I have had characters and deleted them for whatever reason, but never got back the Credits for the lost training on the deleted character. And why should not I get back those credits, after all, it is the only thing you get to retain for your monthly subscription fee. The game is unattractive; those besting you have often insane skill levels so the playing field is way too uneven. Safe zones for non-pvp players have been eroded and the introduction of player owned stations etcetera meant that long term players have more opportunities to drain the resolve, resources and desire from newer players. Once you leave the training quests behind, the game is flat out boring. The market is the very best marketplace in any MMO I have come across, however, the ability to be cheated, scammed and otherwise robbed is way too prevalent and supported by the devs to ensure that fairness is stacked only to those long term players who have learned how to cheat and connive. Manufacturing used to be a worthwhile event. Mine a bit, make things, sell them on the market was a gameplay style I enjoyed. Then came planetary games and the whole concept was spoiled. It was in effect a mini game that made no sense. Now I understand player owned stations can charge you for making planet based stuff so no fun there anymore. Unless you own the planet station I guess. But, do I want to spend my time endlessly farming to buy another ship for some ass wipe to blow up for no reason? The Orca was once a great ship, it meant I could get my gear to market, but some people do not like that and now the Orca is a gankers delight. So why bother. I donGÇÖt anymore. Just pay to let my character earn for whatever reason once seemed important. Now, to play the game, laugh, do me a favour, itGÇÖs broke and the devs only seem to want to make things better for the lifetime wingers with billions of skill points and no personality. There is no respect in the game anymore, people seem to want to lie to you, cheat from you and use all the abuse you can imagine to make you feel uncomfortable, I admit then, the biggest inhibition to wanting to play this game is not the devs, itGÇÖs the other players and then the devs. So the game 'recently' gravitated to 'spoil your day'? That's news to me, I'd have pegged that date as 2003. People can get mad at me all they want for telling this truth, but it's the truth: some people just aren't mentally or emotionally cut out for EVE, and that's ok,
Galaxy Duck Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing 33	Posted - 2016.09.29 02:44:49 - [1775] - Quote This thread can get to 100 pages, we just have to believe.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 875	Posted - 2016.09.29 12:29:13 - [1776] - Quote Galaxy Duck wrote: This thread can get to 100 pages, we just have to believe. Now that you've said something ISD will probably lock it about halfway through page 99... The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal. Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Yogsoloth Beyond Thunderdome. 222	Posted - 2016.09.29 17:37:59 - [1777] - Quote It's really quite simple... 1) CCP has implemented a number of changes over the last several years that have not been received well by paying customers. People voiced their opinions and concerns and ultimately spoke with their wallets and canceled subscriptions. (not the vocal minority on these forums, that will undoubtedly disagree) 2) CCP has not been able to generate enough (any) excitement outside of the existing community to offset those losses. Now they've doubled down by continuing to alienate large swaths of the existing playerbase in favor of chasing the elusive new player via F2P/ P2W. Wait until the november patch and after all the new titles get released around the holidays. Login and script numbers will not be improving anytime soon. At least not back to 40 or 50 or yes even 60k+ logins that used to be the norm. Without taking a side on whether or not changes were needed or were good or bad, I think we can all point to a multitude of changes that killed off the playerbase. Good or bad for gameplay OGB changes will be the next subscription killer enmasse.
Sonya Corvinus Grant Village 622	Posted - 2016.09.29 17:42:40 - [1778] - Quote Galaxy Duck wrote: I know right?!? It's almost like they didn't intend for people to farm the same crappy PVE for years and years. It's ALMOST like, that's not the aspect of the game they intend to showcase at all! If only people could play in a sandbox the way they personally want to (and recommend changes to CCP based on what they enjoy), instead of only being allowed to play the way Galaxy Duck personally deems appropriate. We can dream...we can dream.
Galaxy Duck Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing 35	Posted - 2016.09.29 18:42:14 - [1779] - Quote Hey, nothing stopping you. Knock yourself out grinding those same missions, just don't expect a lot of sympathy from the rest of us or the devs.
Darek Castigatus Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel 746	Posted - 2016.09.29 19:05:48 - [1780] - Quote Galaxy Duck wrote: This thread can get to 100 pages, we just have to believe. And yet nothing new will have been said, at all. Its the same sides having the same arguments in the same ways just like every other time this subject has come up. Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin you're welcome
Sonya Corvinus Grant Village 622	Posted - 2016.09.29 19:12:47 - [1781] - Quote Galaxy Duck wrote: Hey, nothing stopping you. Knock yourself out grinding those same missions, just don't expect a lot of sympathy from the rest of us or the devs. Today I learned missions are the only PvE content out there. I'm virtually never in HS, and haven't done PvP in months. That being said, thank you for your kind words. The next time I feel like doing something in a sandbox, I will run it by you first to see if it is actually fun for me or not.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18216	Posted - 2016.09.29 19:52:11 - [1782] - Quote Darek Castigatus wrote: Galaxy Duck wrote: This thread can get to 100 pages, we just have to believe. And yet nothing new will have been said, at all. Its the same sides having the same arguments in the same ways just like every other time this subject has come up. One side does have an ever growing body of evidence to back them up though.
Galaxy Duck Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing 35	Posted - 2016.09.29 20:29:21 - [1783] - Quote Sonya Corvinus wrote: Galaxy Duck wrote: Hey, nothing stopping you. Knock yourself out grinding those same missions, just don't expect a lot of sympathy from the rest of us or the devs. Today I learned missions are the only PvE content out there. I'm virtually never in HS, and haven't done PvP in months. That being said, thank you for your kind words. The next time I feel like doing something in a sandbox, I will run it by you first to see if it is actually fun for me or not. I hereby grant you permission to engage in whatever silly carebear nonsense you want. -so long as you stay outside of James 315 territory.
Rocker Will Rockstar federation 35	Posted - 2016.09.29 20:31:15 - [1784] - Quote in my oppinion this game costs far too much money, especially if your running multiple accounts, there also needs to be some more emersive features like some real audio and videos from the agents and missions, to bring EVE to life and give you an idea of each factions characteristics, and personalities. because reading is, well OUT of Date. I'm Batman
Sonya Corvinus Grant Village 623	Posted - 2016.09.29 20:35:15 - [1785] - Quote Galaxy Duck wrote: I hereby grant you permission to engage in whatever silly carebear nonsense you want. -so long as you stay outside of James 315 territory. You're extremely gracious. Best of luck right back at you in your own carebearing ways. Those indy ships (like rats and sleepers) aren't going to blow themselves up.
Nabu Nezzar Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 6	Posted - 2016.09.29 21:05:49 - [1786] - Quote Rocker Will wrote: in my oppinion this game costs far too much money, especially if your running multiple accounts, there also needs to be some more emersive features like some real audio and videos from the agents and missions, to bring EVE to life and give you an idea of each factions characteristics, and personalities. because reading is, well OUT of Date. I completely disagree. They probably haven't raised the subscription fee during the whole time and considering rising development costs etc, that's something to keep in mind. Other developers/publishers go with F2P, cash in (via whales) and then the game dies after 1-2 years. In SP games, they charge you full price + microtransactions to cover costs (and there is greedy scum like "current state" Blizzard who just want more and more money). Raise the subscription fee and you lose subs because it becomes too expensive, lower them and you don't earn enough money. From my point of view, their marketing team should target people 20+ to make them aware of the game (and also show that just because it's old, the graphics aren't so). If I wasn't a general game enthusiast, I would have never heard of the game. Heck, before 2010 I didn't even know it existed while WoW had commercials running on TV years earlier and other MMOGs at least got talked about. You don't need videos for something to be more atmospheric. That would just be a waste of resources. Atmosphere is created by a lot of different factors and videos would only play a really, really small part in it (and it could even be negative in case of a bad voice actor). I'm not sure on what planet you live but I guarantee you that on planet Earth, reading is not outdated.
Karl Jerr Herzack Unit 118	Posted - 2016.09.29 22:03:52 - [1787] - Quote I'm w/ Nabu Nezzar that reading isn't out of date, and it's a door open to your imagination for some roleplay and fun. And the money... two accounts cost me this year CAD $355.42 (I take yearly subs for the monthly reduced price), people here (in my country) can blow easily the double-to-triple for their cellphones just to look Youtube video, play to angry bird, and send some SMS...
Minabunny Dread Guard 68	Posted - 2016.09.29 22:22:55 - [1788] - Quote Denavit wrote: Is is because PLEX prices, i remember buying them at 550mill, 500mill, now is almost 1bill, or is it because the changes are making oldSchoolers quit? If I recall I was paying 200 Mill at one time which allowed me to float a few accounts. While skyrocketing prices at one point did result in me canceling multiple accounts I don't believe the price of Plex is the major factor of player loss, but is a contributing factor, like many of eve's mechanics. The unwillingness to adapt to attract and keep new customers, catering to a specific segment of the player base and marketing themselves to the most anti-social behavior crowd probably weighs more on this. Also removing the ability to use isboxer was another blow. Eve game mechanics push players into having multiple accounts, taking the ability to use them efficiently lost some customers. Again not a 'huge' blow but it contributes. Eve chose to appeal to a super niche player base and market themselves to a player 'type' that the majority of online gamers simply want nothing to do with. The marketing video that glorified befriending people for long periods of time as to bring yourself into a position where you have access to corporation funds/inventory with the intention to steal years of peoples hard work is a good example. While I'm all for PvP and risk I would not want to associate with any person that find that type of behavior appealing nor do I think most players do. When you combine that with an extremely poor new user experience, poor conversion and retention rates you are headed for rough times. They have tried to compensate for this by putting in mechanics to squeeze more and more money out of single customer. The new 'injector' attempts to push new players into spending even more money at the start of their eve experience. Push that plex! (want to increase your conversions on buying injectors? Give new players an injector to start with.) The average player is not going to spend this type of money to start a 'new' game experience. They are not going to spend hundreds on plex to purchase a pilot off the bazaar either. I did find it absolutely hilarious that there was a claim that injectors was a to 'respec'. Give me a break. This is no way, shape or form a respec. Most of my pilots are all over 50M SP I will NEVER use these injectors! A real way to fully respec I would LOVE to see. I've just recently returned after over a year break purely because a friend of mine started a trial I gave him over a year ago. I could not just let him face the vastness and complexity of Eve by himself. I can tell you that if I would not of re-upped my subscription and helped him by his own words "I would of quit the first day" . The new user experience still needs work. I can honestly say I'm not very impressed by changes since I last played. Well let me take that back, somewhat. This throne event was nice. Little sites I could get in quick and get something done in 10 minutes was good. I don't have much time to sit down anymore for long game sessions so this was an interesting and nice change. Also, as a wormhole dweller, the new citadels are awesome! Living out of the pos was a nightmare and pos management was utterly horrible. Seriously, sometimes it made me want to put my fist through the monitor. In the end though I'll probably stick around for a couple months (assuming my buddy continues to play) and then I'll be gone again. I have no desire to be nickle and dimmed to try and make up for the dwindling customer base. Adapt or Die.
Arcelian Metentis 194	Posted - 2016.09.29 23:17:38 - [1789] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Darek Castigatus wrote: Galaxy Duck wrote: This thread can get to 100 pages, we just have to believe. And yet nothing new will have been said, at all. Its the same sides having the same arguments in the same ways just like every other time this subject has come up. One side does have an ever growing body of evidence to back them up though. I really wonder where CCP gets it's data from. If it's just from the "Reason for unsubscribing" drop down box, I feel that data is flawed. Because of pride. "Wow someone just blew up everything I've worked for over the past two weeks! Awesome!" * re sub* I just don't see that happening.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26932	Posted - 2016.09.29 23:27:53 - [1790] - Quote Arcelian wrote: "Wow someone just blew up everything I've worked for over the past two weeks! Awesome!" * re sub* I just don't see that happening. Yet it does, you missed out the concept of revenge. "Wow someone just blew up everything I've worked for over the past two weeks! Gonna hunt that mofo down and kill his ass!" * re sub*" Worked for me, inherited 2 of his corpses from my first character; took me a year, revenge is a dish best served cold. Civilised behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. New Player FAQ Feyd's Survival Pack
Arcelian Metentis 194	Posted - 2016.09.29 23:51:25 - [1791] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Arcelian wrote: "Wow someone just blew up everything I've worked for over the past two weeks! Awesome!" * re sub* I just don't see that happening. Yet it does, you missed out the concept of revenge. "Wow someone just blew up everything I've worked for over the past two weeks! Gonna hunt that mofo down and kill his ass!" * re sub*" Worked for me, inherited 2 of his corpses from my first character; took me a year, revenge is a dish best served cold. If that was true, we wouldn't be back down to 2006 levels player base wise.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5284	Posted - 2016.09.30 04:42:45 - [1792] - Quote Arcelian wrote: baltec1 wrote: Darek Castigatus wrote: Galaxy Duck wrote: This thread can get to 100 pages, we just have to believe. And yet nothing new will have been said, at all. Its the same sides having the same arguments in the same ways just like every other time this subject has come up. One side does have an ever growing body of evidence to back them up though. I really wonder where CCP gets it's data from. If it's just from the "Reason for unsubscribing" drop down box, I feel that data is flawed. Because of pride. "Wow someone just blew up everything I've worked for over the past two weeks! Awesome!" * re sub* I just don't see that happening. Maybe you have heard of the old adage, don't put all your eggs in one basket? Seriously stop being imprudent. Once you are imprudent and somebody notices they will take advantage of it. Stop blaming the game and look to your own decisions and behavior. You lost everything because you screwed up. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5284	Posted - 2016.09.30 04:53:07 - [1793] - Quote Arcelian wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Arcelian wrote: "Wow someone just blew up everything I've worked for over the past two weeks! Awesome!" * re sub* I just don't see that happening. Yet it does, you missed out the concept of revenge. "Wow someone just blew up everything I've worked for over the past two weeks! Gonna hunt that mofo down and kill his ass!" * re sub*" Worked for me, inherited 2 of his corpses from my first character; took me a year, revenge is a dish best served cold. If that was true, we wouldn't be back down to 2006 levels player base wise. I was not around in 2006, but I was here in 2008, 2009 and 2010 when if you suicide ganked people you got insurance when CONCORD killed you. This reduced the gank threshold, BTW, if most of your ship loss was covered by insurance you could gank a freighter with less ISK value in cargo and still make a profit. Not sure when they reduced CONCORD response times, but that happened too. In short, when ganking was easier the game grew the fastest. Coincidence? Maybe, but I'm inclined to think not. Here is a hint, do not put everything you own in a freighter and undock. Do not go out and buy lots of PLEX then buy purple mods for your CNR and go ratting. Do not go AFK while mining in a 0.5-0.7 system. All of these things will most likely leave you upset as you made yourself vulnerable to other players. You have no safe space. You, to a large extent, determine the amount of risk you face. Be prudent and you'll be fine. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
March rabbit Mosquito Squadron The-Culture 1910	Posted - 2016.09.30 05:43:46 - [1794] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Arcelian wrote: "Wow someone just blew up everything I've worked for over the past two weeks! Awesome!" * re sub* I just don't see that happening. Yet it does, you missed out the concept of revenge. "Wow someone just blew up everything I've worked for over the past two weeks! Gonna hunt that mofo down and kill his ass!" sub Worked for me, inherited 2 of his corpses from my first character; took me a year, revenge is a dish best served cold. You have watched too much of Hollywood movies when you were child.... Not many people really ready to spend effort for 'revenge'. Else we would have completely different world The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
March rabbit Mosquito Squadron The-Culture 1910	Posted - 2016.09.30 05:50:06 - [1795] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: In short, when ganking was easier the game grew the fastest. Coincidence? Maybe, but I'm inclined to think not. - Eve had 'easier ganking' - Eve had not t3 destroyers (coincidence?) - Eve had no SP trading (injectors/extractors) - Eve had different carriers - Eve had no jump fatique and SOV was about shooting structures - .... - Eve had learning skills It's just an example of what had changed for last years. You (and some others) are inclined to connect decline of subscriptions to nerfs of ganking ignoring all other changes. You know for sure: this is not the way science can be? The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5285	Posted - 2016.09.30 06:08:27 - [1796] - Quote March rabbit wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: In short, when ganking was easier the game grew the fastest. Coincidence? Maybe, but I'm inclined to think not. - Eve had 'easier ganking' - Eve had not t3 destroyers (coincidence?) - Eve had no SP trading (injectors/extractors) - Eve had different carriers - Eve had no jump fatique and SOV was about shooting structures - .... - Eve had learning skills It's just an example of what had changed for last years. You (and some others) are inclined to connect decline of subscriptions to nerfs of ganking ignoring all other changes. You know for sure: this is not the way science can be? You forgot the training queue of 24 hours, the unlimited training gueue as well. The removal of learning skills was a good thing. Now instead of training a horribly boring set of skills, people can move one. SP trading has been in the game and was known as character trading. And seriously, players online stopped growing in 2011 because at some point in the future T3 destroyers were going to be in the game? The game, in terms of characters online, stopped growing around 2011. It wasn't until mid 2013 that the trend became negative. Most of your list post dates this change in trend. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18217	Posted - 2016.09.30 07:17:30 - [1797] - Quote Arcelian wrote: If that was true, we wouldn't be back down to 2006 levels player base wise. CCP have removed a large amount of pvp from EVE, mostly in highsec. Its no coincidence that as safety has gone up the retention has gone down. You can't remove a large body of content from a game and not expect subs to go down.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 1088	Posted - 2016.09.30 08:06:44 - [1798] - Quote March rabbit wrote: You (and some others) are inclined to connect decline of subscriptions to nerfs of ganking ignoring all other changes. I think that's a little bit the reverse of the normal argument. It normally goes something like this: Post A: Ganking is killing Eve (and all the various versions of that theme) Post B: Eve was growing when ganking was easier/more common.etc. Post B is rarely used as justification for why numbers are now falling. It's mostly used as a counter to carebear whiners who claim ganking is the reason for the decline, ignoring all other changes. Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
March rabbit Mosquito Squadron The-Culture 1910	Posted - 2016.09.30 08:18:25 - [1799] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: March rabbit wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: In short, when ganking was easier the game grew the fastest. Coincidence? Maybe, but I'm inclined to think not. - Eve had 'easier ganking' - Eve had not t3 destroyers (coincidence?) - Eve had no SP trading (injectors/extractors) - Eve had different carriers - Eve had no jump fatique and SOV was about shooting structures - .... - Eve had learning skills It's just an example of what had changed for last years. You (and some others) are inclined to connect decline of subscriptions to nerfs of ganking ignoring all other changes. You know for sure: this is not the way science can be? You forgot the training queue of 24 hours, the unlimited training gueue as well. The removal of learning skills was a good thing. Now instead of training a horribly boring set of skills, people can move one. SP trading has been in the game and was known as character trading. And seriously, players online stopped growing in 2011 because at some point in the future T3 destroyers were going to be in the game? The game, in terms of characters online, stopped growing around 2011. It wasn't until mid 2013 that the trend became negative. Most of your list post dates this change in trend. This list was given as indication that there was many changes in the last years. I'm pretty sure you got it tho.... Not sure if it would help if i or some other will really spent effort and compile list of changes which were made exactly in 2011. You will still decline all of it and continue with 'only nerf to ganking matters'.... The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18219	Posted - 2016.09.30 08:35:56 - [1800] - Quote March rabbit wrote: This list was given as indication that there was many changes in the last years. I'm pretty sure you got it tho.... Not sure if it would help if i or some other will really spent effort and compile list of changes which were made exactly in 2011. You will still decline all of it and continue with 'only nerf to ganking matters'.... Its post 2011 that the decline happened so thats where we need to look. What we have seen is the removal of a lot of content, all of it just about PvP content and almost all of it from highsec. For example ninja salvaging is gone, an easy to get into activity that new players could do. Jetcan piracy is gone, this was once huge and provided a lot of content. Targeted merc wars are now all but impossible which has removed a lot of content. Mining barge piracy is gone, again, a lot of content went out of the door with that. There is less to do today in EVE, a lot less, than 6 years ago.
March rabbit Mosquito Squadron The-Culture 1910	Posted - 2016.09.30 08:41:15 - [1801] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: March rabbit wrote: You (and some others) are inclined to connect decline of subscriptions to nerfs of ganking ignoring all other changes. I think that's a little bit the reverse of the normal argument. It normally goes something like this: Post A: Ganking is killing Eve (and all the various versions of that theme) Post B: Eve was growing when ganking was easier/more common.etc. Post B is rarely used as justification for why numbers are now falling. It's mostly used as a counter to carebear whiners who claim ganking is the reason for the decline, ignoring all other changes. Even in your example B is hardly a good argument about A. Let's talk math: F = X - Y Here: F - is growth of population X - some 'positive' factors Y - ganking If X is bigger than Y then we have positive result. If Y is bigger than X then we have negative result. Now we can translate your posts to this system: Post A: F gets lower because of Y. Post B: in past F was positive and Y was bigger. Is post A correct? Yes, the bigger gets Y the lower gets F if X does not change. Is post B correct? Yes, for any value of Y we can find X so F will be bigger than currently. Does post B counters A? Nope. As long as X is staying outside of formula we cannot connect any changes in values of Y and F. So at the end i don't support "ganking kills Eve". And i don't support "Eve was growing when ganking was easier/more often/etc". Former is just personal opinion. Latter is incorrect statistically. The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 1088	Posted - 2016.09.30 09:03:35 - [1802] - Quote March rabbit wrote: Even in your example B is hardly a good argument about A. Let's talk math: I never claimed it was. Just correcting your mistake. As for maths, post some and we can discuss it objectively. Not a preconceived, poorly defined construct. Something factual. Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Arcelian Metentis 195	Posted - 2016.09.30 09:11:59 - [1803] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Arcelian wrote: baltec1 wrote: Darek Castigatus wrote: Galaxy Duck wrote: This thread can get to 100 pages, we just have to believe. And yet nothing new will have been said, at all. Its the same sides having the same arguments in the same ways just like every other time this subject has come up. One side does have an ever growing body of evidence to back them up though. I really wonder where CCP gets it's data from. If it's just from the "Reason for unsubscribing" drop down box, I feel that data is flawed. Because of pride. "Wow someone just blew up everything I've worked for over the past two weeks! Awesome!" * re sub* I just don't see that happening. Maybe you have heard of the old adage, don't put all your eggs in one basket? Seriously stop being imprudent. Once you are imprudent and somebody notices they will take advantage of it. Stop blaming the game and look to your own decisions and behavior. You lost everything because you screwed up. I've been around since 2008, I make billions per day, I can afford to be imprudent if I so choose. And what you said had nothing at all to do with my post.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 1088	Posted - 2016.09.30 09:16:11 - [1804] - Quote Arcelian wrote: I make billions per day,... Wallet transaction screenshot or it's BS. Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Arcelian Metentis 195	Posted - 2016.09.30 09:19:40 - [1805] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Arcelian wrote: If that was true, we wouldn't be back down to 2006 levels player base wise. CCP have removed a large amount of pvp from EVE, mostly in highsec. Its no coincidence that as safety has gone up the retention has gone down. You can't remove a large body of content from a game and not expect subs to go down. I agree with this. Things like the watch list removal, in my opinion, were a huge step backward. Maybe I'm showing my ignorance here, but other than that what has been removed from high sec pvp? You can still war dec, hell you can still can flip afaik, just no one can mines anymore. Ninja salvaging did get removed IIRC, not sure why. Ganking is more prevalent now with code and what not than it was ever in the past.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18219	Posted - 2016.09.30 09:37:02 - [1806] - Quote Arcelian wrote: baltec1 wrote: Arcelian wrote: If that was true, we wouldn't be back down to 2006 levels player base wise. CCP have removed a large amount of pvp from EVE, mostly in highsec. Its no coincidence that as safety has gone up the retention has gone down. You can't remove a large body of content from a game and not expect subs to go down. I agree with this. Things like the watch list removal, in my opinion, were a huge step backward. Maybe I'm showing my ignorance here, but other than that what has been removed from high sec pvp? You can still war dec, hell you can still can flip afaik, just no one can mines anymore. Ninja salvaging did get removed IIRC, not sure why. Ganking is more prevalent now with code and what not than it was ever in the past. Ganking is at a record low. The only miner gankers these days is code, a terrorist organisation than only exists so long as people keep on donating money to them. We used to have an entire pirate industry that revolved around the targeting of profitable to gank miners. CCP hit ganking with so many nerfs over the years that profitable ganking of miners became impossible. This resulted in not only the death of mining piracy but also in the death of the mining interdictions and hulkageddon events. We have a situation where ganks are now done randomly by just one organisation so there is no reward for fitting and piloting your miner well. This is something the grr ganker mob simply cannot understand. Their nerfs has resulted in not just content being removed from gankers but also content being removed from the miners too. You don't see miners grouping together like they used to, they don't talk to each other like the used to, they don't get involved with the wider community like they used to, simply because they have no need to. They play alone, face no challenge and most of them quit because it is boring.
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn Singularity Syndicate 2086	Posted - 2016.09.30 09:43:24 - [1807] - Quote I didn't read the myriad posts as I can only say why my own interest dropped. The game moved away from one of the main reasons I like games, that being character development. Now you can just buy all the SP you want (limited only by available finances). This doesn't matter to many people but it did matter to me. Alongside that one of the posts on the first page pointed out that as you have less time EvE becomes less tenable. Now that you can just buy SP back there is no incentive for players to keep accounts subbed if they won't log in more than a few times a month. The cost of the sub isn't that high in real terms (probably 5 cappucinos a month and I am not going to scare my self with how low a % that is of total consumption :D ). However if you can't log in it is now simply dead money. Not sure whether the Alpha/Omega clones will help so much with this. Alpha clones may work for players happy to go into low sec/faction warfare in cheap ships but longer term players will be unhappy with the limits they present. Perhaps a better choice would be a lower sub price (25%?) that allows you to fly a designated favourite ship with all your skills on a main character only. This character would have no running training queue, but all skills available (may need to be limited to combat ships to avoid cheap farming). It's a tricky one, but as another post pointed out MMO use is dropping gradually anyway, it may just be a part of the natural cycle of the game. In terms of PvP vs PvE I think there's nothing wrong with the current balance in general. The drop in PvP in hisec is most likely because those who don't want to PvP will live there. I have no time for people complaining about it when they are ganked/wardec'd since that is a known part of the game. However what may help bring in more players is to introduce varied PvE mechanics to bring in more players who like this side of the game. One idea could be a geopolitical aspect, a strategy style side to the game where players can become provincial, state and eventually planetary governers. This would have no problem being tied into the main EvE space game as the combat system would not be involved. Better control and a happier populace would improve the yields of PI for the mudhugging baseliners...sorry, I mean politcal classes. The political groups would need to hire capsuleers to perform spaceborn ops for them from time to time to tie the games together. Just an idea on a way to bring in another game demographic, which may lead to some of them bleeding into the main game too. Waffle over...as you were people...
Galaxy Duck Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing 35	Posted - 2016.09.30 13:54:22 - [1808] - Quote March rabbit wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: March rabbit wrote: You (and some others) are inclined to connect decline of subscriptions to nerfs of ganking ignoring all other changes. I think that's a little bit the reverse of the normal argument. It normally goes something like this: Post A: Ganking is killing Eve (and all the various versions of that theme) Post B: Eve was growing when ganking was easier/more common.etc. Post B is rarely used as justification for why numbers are now falling. It's mostly used as a counter to carebear whiners who claim ganking is the reason for the decline, ignoring all other changes. Even in your example B is hardly a good argument about A. Let's talk math: F = X - Y Here: F - is growth of population X - some 'positive' factors Y - ganking If X is bigger than Y then we have positive result. If Y is bigger than X then we have negative result. Now we can translate your posts to this system: Post A: F gets lower because of Y. Post B: in past F was positive and Y was bigger. Is post A correct? Yes, the bigger gets Y the lower gets F if X does not change. Is post B correct? Yes, for any value of Y we can find X so F will be bigger than currently. Does post B counters A? Nope. As long as X is staying outside of formula we cannot connect any changes in values of Y and F. So at the end i don't support "ganking kills Eve". And i don't support "Eve was growing when ganking was easier/more often/etc". Former is just personal opinion. Latter is incorrect statistically. ...but, EVE was growing when ganking was easier/more common etc. You can't maths your way around that fact, my friend. You can say correlation doesn't show causation blah blah sure, but that fact remains true, it's not "statistically incorrect" it's demonstrably true.
Andrea Skye Rico's Roughnecks. 17	Posted - 2016.09.30 14:01:38 - [1809] - Quote My entire corp quit mostly over the issue of gang links ruining small/solo pvp. We had 50+ active members at our peak. Probably 2-3 of them still play. I heard about the patch in November that is removing off grid boosting, so I re subbed early to get some isk/extra skills for when the patch comes. the patch might be too late tho, most of my old corp mates I am still in contact with, and most cant be bothered now. Few of us are returning in November however. We will see how that goes.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5285	Posted - 2016.09.30 17:43:48 - [1810] - Quote Arcelian wrote: I've been around since 2008, I make billions per day, I can afford to be imprudent if I so choose. And what you said had nothing at all to do with my post. Good for you...but you did point to people "loosing everything" and thus not keeping their sub going. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5285	Posted - 2016.09.30 17:52:25 - [1811] - Quote March rabbit wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: March rabbit wrote: You (and some others) are inclined to connect decline of subscriptions to nerfs of ganking ignoring all other changes. I think that's a little bit the reverse of the normal argument. It normally goes something like this: Post A: Ganking is killing Eve (and all the various versions of that theme) Post B: Eve was growing when ganking was easier/more common.etc. Post B is rarely used as justification for why numbers are now falling. It's mostly used as a counter to carebear whiners who claim ganking is the reason for the decline, ignoring all other changes. Even in your example B is hardly a good argument about A. Let's talk math: F = X - Y Here: F - is growth of population X - some 'positive' factors Y - ganking If X is bigger than Y then we have positive result. If Y is bigger than X then we have negative result. Now we can translate your posts to this system: Post A: F gets lower because of Y. Post B: in past F was positive and Y was bigger. Is post A correct? Yes, the bigger gets Y the lower gets F if X does not change. Is post B correct? Yes, for any value of Y we can find X so F will be bigger than currently. Does post B counters A? Nope. As long as X is staying outside of formula we cannot connect any changes in values of Y and F. So at the end i don't support "ganking kills Eve". And i don't support "Eve was growing when ganking was easier/more often/etc". Former is just personal opinion. Latter is incorrect statistically. I'm sorry this "math" is pure unadulterated bullshit. It is bullshit because you have assumed that which trying to prove is true. Your "math" could just as easily be: F = X + Y - Z Where Z is some factor or factors that result in players leaving the game. If nerfs to ganking reduces Y and X and Z are the same, then it is possible that F is negative. In fact, what you'd want to look at is something more along the lines of: F = aX + bY + d*Z And you'd let the data determine the size and sign of the coefficients (a,b,d). You could do this with a linear regression model, in theory. The big problem is appropriate data. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Sonya Corvinus Grant Village 627	Posted - 2016.09.30 18:26:29 - [1812] - Quote I'm going to ignore the ganking vs non-ganking thing for a minute and suggest something else. In the past few years open world/sandbox survival games have exploded. Many people play EVE not necessarily for PvP, but simply because they love open world sandbox environments. Now with a lot of options beyond just EVE, I think a decent chunk of people are simply playing other games because they are available. I'm still playing, but I'm down a few accounts from what I had 3-4 years ago. I find myself logging into subnautica, ARK survival, empyrion gallactic, etc. Years ago when I didn't feel like PvP-ing, I would still log into EVE and be the mouse in the game of cat and mouse. Now there are a lot of other options in terms of sandboxes to play in when I feel like a chill, relaxing night and not the heart pounding PvP experience.
Arcelian Metentis 195	Posted - 2016.09.30 20:20:16 - [1813] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Arcelian wrote: baltec1 wrote: Arcelian wrote: If that was true, we wouldn't be back down to 2006 levels player base wise. CCP have removed a large amount of pvp from EVE, mostly in highsec. Its no coincidence that as safety has gone up the retention has gone down. You can't remove a large body of content from a game and not expect subs to go down. I agree with this. Things like the watch list removal, in my opinion, were a huge step backward. Maybe I'm showing my ignorance here, but other than that what has been removed from high sec pvp? You can still war dec, hell you can still can flip afaik, just no one can mines anymore. Ninja salvaging did get removed IIRC, not sure why. Ganking is more prevalent now with code and what not than it was ever in the past. Ganking is at a record low. The only miner gankers these days is code, a terrorist organisation than only exists so long as people keep on donating money to them. We used to have an entire pirate industry that revolved around the targeting of profitable to gank miners. CCP hit ganking with so many nerfs over the years that profitable ganking of miners became impossible. This resulted in not only the death of mining piracy but also in the death of the mining interdictions and hulkageddon events. We have a situation where ganks are now done randomly by just one organisation so there is no reward for fitting and piloting your miner well. This is something the grr ganker mob simply cannot understand. Their nerfs has resulted in not just content being removed from gankers but also content being removed from the miners too. You don't see miners grouping together like they used to, they don't talk to each other like the used to, they don't get involved with the wider community like they used to, simply because they have no need to. They play alone, face no challenge and most of them quit because it is boring. This may be a contributing factor, I won't deny that. But I think it's hardly the only factor that caused the decline. Any lack of conflict is bad. I don't think ganking caused a significant amount of players to quit either.....even though having been on the giving end of ganks myself,I know I have caused some players to never show up again. Or rather. shortly after the gank occured they never logged in again, I don't know if I caused it. Ultimately I believe it boils down to the NPE, CCP has stated themselves that most people quit early on. Most of those probably never engaged in pvp at all. Maybe have Aura give new players a stack of 10 t1 frigates, and the tutorial gives a reward of 5 million isk for every one of those that gets blown up by another capsuleer?
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18222	Posted - 2016.09.30 20:59:19 - [1814] - Quote Arcelian wrote: This may be a contributing factor, I won't deny that. But I think it's hardly the only factor that caused the decline. Any lack of conflict is bad. I don't think ganking caused a significant amount of players to quit either.....even though having been on the giving end of ganks myself,I know I have caused some players to never show up again. Or rather. shortly after the gank occured they never logged in again, I don't know if I caused it. Ultimately I believe it boils down to the NPE, CCP has stated themselves that most people quit early on. Most of those probably never engaged in pvp at all. Maybe have Aura give new players a stack of 10 t1 frigates, and the tutorial gives a reward of 5 million isk for every one of those that gets blown up by another capsuleer? NPE could do with work but its not the primary problem. The issue is a lack of easily accessible content that used to exist but no longer does.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 18380	Posted - 2016.09.30 21:09:02 - [1815] - Quote According to the csm minutes the npe is getting a bit of work soonGäó. I'll believe it when I see and hate it on sisi Praposal:Un-F**k Locator Agants =]\|[=
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5285	Posted - 2016.09.30 21:20:30 - [1816] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Arcelian wrote: This may be a contributing factor, I won't deny that. But I think it's hardly the only factor that caused the decline. Any lack of conflict is bad. I don't think ganking caused a significant amount of players to quit either.....even though having been on the giving end of ganks myself,I know I have caused some players to never show up again. Or rather. shortly after the gank occured they never logged in again, I don't know if I caused it. Ultimately I believe it boils down to the NPE, CCP has stated themselves that most people quit early on. Most of those probably never engaged in pvp at all. Maybe have Aura give new players a stack of 10 t1 frigates, and the tutorial gives a reward of 5 million isk for every one of those that gets blown up by another capsuleer? NPE could do with work but its not the primary problem. The issue is a lack of easily accessible content that used to exist but no longer does. Pretty much this. HS is boring aside from ganking freighters or camping trade hubs. Find an out of the way system that suits your needs and you'll rarely be war decced and if you are because you showed up in Jita and were part of a mass war deccing...nobody will come looking for you. As for the idea of giving new players a stack of ships and a monetary incentive....interesting idea. Problem is I could see this being abused. Start an account, get the 50 million, transfer to an alt, rinse and repeat. I suppose you could make it a bannable offense to do this and then biomass the character for a given amount of time or something like that. But I like the idea...and incentive to get your ship blown up by another capsuleer--i.e. an incentive to PvP (a temporary one). Plus with the additional ISK in their wallet future losses will not be as annoying. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Johnn Silver Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2016.09.30 23:07:52 - [1817] - Quote Think this is a problem for most MMOs these days, eves fall in players is not that bad in percentage to how many players playing it. Think that's because of the universe itself, this game is the only mmo out there that has a ingame mechanic and world plus graphics that fits perfectly for the mmo term. The reason it's so hard to catch new players are because of the skill training time. It's custom in this genre of game that you can max LvL a char in 2 months, maybe shorter, don't really know never cared to try for more than a week in other popular mmos. And compared to this game skill training, the only thing to say is thanks blizz and compaiongs for your junk and making impatient a common trait among gamers.
Arcelian Metentis 195	Posted - 2016.10.01 01:28:22 - [1818] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Arcelian wrote: This may be a contributing factor, I won't deny that. But I think it's hardly the only factor that caused the decline. Any lack of conflict is bad. I don't think ganking caused a significant amount of players to quit either.....even though having been on the giving end of ganks myself,I know I have caused some players to never show up again. Or rather. shortly after the gank occured they never logged in again, I don't know if I caused it. Ultimately I believe it boils down to the NPE, CCP has stated themselves that most people quit early on. Most of those probably never engaged in pvp at all. Maybe have Aura give new players a stack of 10 t1 frigates, and the tutorial gives a reward of 5 million isk for every one of those that gets blown up by another capsuleer? NPE could do with work but its not the primary problem. The issue is a lack of easily accessible content that used to exist but no longer does. So what you are saying is the primary problem is that it's now harder to gank people. That is the primary cause of the loss of thousands of subs. Is that what you are saying?
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 1096	Posted - 2016.10.01 02:02:17 - [1819] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: According to the csm minutes the npe is getting a bit of work soonGäó. I'll believe it when I see and hate it on sisi NPC logistics support should be interesting. Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Onictus The Scope Gallente Federation 948	Posted - 2016.10.01 07:12:52 - [1820] - Quote Arcelian wrote: The issue is a lack of easily accessible content that used to exist but no longer does. So what you are saying is the primary problem is that it's now harder to gank people. That is the primary cause of the loss of thousands of subs. Is that what you are saying?[/quote] Sure, my start with PvP was in an anti-pirate alliance that ended up in a low-sec anti-pirate coalition (yes, it was a thing). So I was at like 10mil SP with decent inty skills fighting pirates that were +6 years older....it was a lot of fun. Pod nuking people during hulkagedon...taking pot shots at ninjar ratters and baiters flying neutral logi for PvE corps that were getting dec'd and whatnot. There used to be a significantly more diverse eco system in high that wasn't hauling, mining, missions and incursions. You know, content.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18225	Posted - 2016.10.01 09:58:35 - [1821] - Quote Arcelian wrote: So what you are saying is the primary problem is that it's now harder to gank people. That is the primary cause of the loss of thousands of subs. Is that what you are saying? What I am saying is that a lot of content has been removed. Ganking is just one of the affected areas, we have seen some activities entirely destroyed. Ninja salvaging, jetcan piracy and targeted wardecs are now best described as extinct. Your response is exactly what I was talking about, you don't understand that by continually nerfing ganking has had a negetive effect on the very miners you want to protect. It used to be that miner ganking was focused on profitable targets, if you fitted a good tank on your hulk you would not be ganked. Now its a case of every hulk is a target to the one organisation left doing miner ganking because every miner is now unprofitable. So while miner ganks have collapsed in number the miners are infact less safe in a hulk because the gankers that are left no longer have a reason to target specific barges, they target anyone. Then we also have the loss of jetcan mining and the pirates jetcan flipping. You no longer see miners willing to jump into a pvp ship to fight pirates because there is no need. You also don't see them making traps for these pirates anymore because, again, due to the changes there is no need for jetcans and thus, no pirates to trap. And then we move onto the targeted wardecs, which thanks to the removal of the watch list are all but impossible, which means miners that get a war dec are far less likely to have to defend themselves if they move around in the outskirts of highsec. Now you will probably be thinking "Great! Miners are less likely to be killed!" and you are right, they are far far less likely to be shot at as a miner in 2016 than in 2011. But, that also means as a miner you have a fraction of the content you used to have in 2011, a fraction of the challenges, a far more boring world to play in. The end result is more people quit not only because all of the nerfs to the people who think of themselves as PvP players but also the PvE players, simply because mining is a lot more boring and a lot less social today than 5 years ago. And this is just a small part of the content we have lost.
Kaivarian Coste Beyond Imports and Exports 85	Posted - 2016.10.01 11:06:34 - [1822] - Quote The barrer of re-entry to this game is probably too high. Players who enjoyed the game back in 2010 may not resub for $15 on a game they've already tried (and got bored of). You can buy some good indie titles on Steam for that much money.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5286	Posted - 2016.10.01 17:26:40 - [1823] - Quote Kaivarian Coste wrote: The barrer of re-entry to this game is probably too high. Players who enjoyed the game back in 2010 may not resub for $15 on a game they've already tried (and got bored of). You can buy some good indie titles on Steam for that much money. Translation: CCP please make the game cheaper for me as I'm an entitled brat. Seriously? Stop your whining. FYI, with inflation and a constant price CCP has been implicitly giving people discounts year over year. $15 today has less purchasing power than it did in 2010. $15 today would only buy you $13.87 worth of StuffGäó in 2010. When I started playing, 2008, the annual sub cost was about $11 (if you pay for an entire year), that is now down to $9.83 in 2008 dollars. If you started in same year and are whining about subscription costs and PLEX prices...literally, STFU, STFD or GTFO. For under $10/month, in inflation adjusted dollars, you can play the game. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5288	Posted - 2016.10.01 18:05:14 - [1824] - Quote Arcelian wrote: baltec1 wrote: Arcelian wrote: This may be a contributing factor, I won't deny that. But I think it's hardly the only factor that caused the decline. Any lack of conflict is bad. I don't think ganking caused a significant amount of players to quit either.....even though having been on the giving end of ganks myself,I know I have caused some players to never show up again. Or rather. shortly after the gank occured they never logged in again, I don't know if I caused it. Ultimately I believe it boils down to the NPE, CCP has stated themselves that most people quit early on. Most of those probably never engaged in pvp at all. Maybe have Aura give new players a stack of 10 t1 frigates, and the tutorial gives a reward of 5 million isk for every one of those that gets blown up by another capsuleer? NPE could do with work but its not the primary problem. The issue is a lack of easily accessible content that used to exist but no longer does. So what you are saying is the primary problem is that it's now harder to gank people. That is the primary cause of the loss of thousands of subs. Is that what you are saying? Look...hmmm... Okay, let me help you. Lets try a thought experiment. Suppose CCP, in their infinite wisdom (now stop laughing and go with it) decide to just simply ban ganking. They make CONCORD response times 1 second in every system, they buff the freighter EHP 100x, and also will permaban anyone still trying to or even succeeding at ganking. It is now gone for good. Gankers lose content right? What do you think they are going to do? Start mining? Run missions? Probably not. Some might go back to HS after biomassing gank alts (after extracting any surplus SP), but some of them will likely leave. Good you say? Well, let me bring in the ghost of Frederic Bastiat. Ever hear of him? No? Not surprised he died like 166 years ago. He pointed out that there are effects you can see (the seen) and those you can't see (the unseen). His parable that he is most known for is the broken window fallacy. The gist of the story is that a young lad breaks a shoe makers window, and the show maker hires a window repair man, and the typical response is: don't be too hard on the lad because he just created economic activity. But Bastiat said (paraphrasing here), "No, because that $5 or whatever to repair the window spent by the shoe maker can't be spent at the butchers, brewers or bakers businesses, and net wealth has not changed. Thus there is no net gain." How does that apply here, well with not ganking there is no anti-ganking. The AG crowd also loses content. In fact, we see that with Onictus posts where he describes how he lost content over time too but not in the obvious (the seen) way, but in the non-obvious way (the unseen). You....you simply do not apprehend the unseen with respect to these nerfs. You are wearing blinders and your mind is closed. You are the last person CCP should ever listen too. Oh, and if you want to dismiss Bastiat...go ahead. However, his parable of the broken window fallacy is the first known articulation of the concept known as opportunity cost. That concept people point to why "mining your own minerals to build stuff are not free". "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Kaivarian Coste Beyond Imports and Exports 85	Posted - 2016.10.01 19:25:10 - [1825] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Translation: CCP please make the game cheaper for me as I'm an entitled brat. Um, screw you buddy. I'm subbed all the way to 2017, but there are other people out there who prefer to build a library of games, rather than remain subbed to a single game.
Arcelian Metentis 200	Posted - 2016.10.01 22:13:05 - [1826] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Arcelian wrote: baltec1 wrote: Arcelian wrote: This may be a contributing factor, I won't deny that. But I think it's hardly the only factor that caused the decline. Any lack of conflict is bad. I don't think ganking caused a significant amount of players to quit either.....even though having been on the giving end of ganks myself,I know I have caused some players to never show up again. Or rather. shortly after the gank occured they never logged in again, I don't know if I caused it. Ultimately I believe it boils down to the NPE, CCP has stated themselves that most people quit early on. Most of those probably never engaged in pvp at all. Maybe have Aura give new players a stack of 10 t1 frigates, and the tutorial gives a reward of 5 million isk for every one of those that gets blown up by another capsuleer? NPE could do with work but its not the primary problem. The issue is a lack of easily accessible content that used to exist but no longer does. So what you are saying is the primary problem is that it's now harder to gank people. That is the primary cause of the loss of thousands of subs. Is that what you are saying? Look...hmmm... Okay, let me help you. Lets try a thought experiment. Suppose CCP, in their infinite wisdom (now stop laughing and go with it) decide to just simply ban ganking. They make CONCORD response times 1 second in every system, they buff the freighter EHP 100x, and also will permaban anyone still trying to or even succeeding at ganking. It is now gone for good. Gankers lose content right? What do you think they are going to do? Start mining? Run missions? Probably not. Some might go back to HS after biomassing gank alts (after extracting any surplus SP), but some of them will likely leave. Good you say? Well, let me bring in the ghost of Frederic Bastiat. Ever hear of him? No? Not surprised he died like 166 years ago. He pointed out that there are effects you can see (the seen) and those you can't see (the unseen). His parable that he is most known for is the broken window fallacy. The gist of the story is that a young lad breaks a shoe makers window, and the show maker hires a window repair man, and the typical response is: don't be too hard on the lad because he just created economic activity. But Bastiat said (paraphrasing here), "No, because that $5 or whatever to repair the window spent by the shoe maker can't be spent at the butchers, brewers or bakers businesses, and net wealth has not changed. Thus there is no net gain." How does that apply here, well with not ganking there is no anti-ganking. The AG crowd also loses content. In fact, we see that with Onictus posts where he describes how he lost content over time too but not in the obvious (the seen) way, but in the non-obvious way (the unseen). You....you simply do not apprehend the unseen with respect to these nerfs. You are wearing blinders and your mind is closed. You are the last person CCP should ever listen too. Oh, and if you want to dismiss Bastiat...go ahead. However, his parable of the broken window fallacy is the first known articulation of the concept known as opportunity cost. That concept people point to why "mining your own minerals to build stuff are not free". I can't link kill mails, but I have been ganked I think twice, and have ganked others multiple times. A quick glance at my zkillboard (as terrible as it is) will prove that. I don't really care which way it goes. Personally, I believe afk miners and botters are FAR more a cancer to this game than code could ever hope to be. In fact, in a lot of ways, code does some good. In other ways, I really hate them, especially when they blow up my autopiloting alt who's in a noob ship, and nab his pod that has over a billion in implants. shakes fist The point being is, ganking still happens. Hell, you can still can flip. You just have more risk now to do so. CCP did NOT get rid of ganking, in fact I have yet to see someone mention these game-breaking changes that has caused ganking to all but disappear. The suspect status being open to everyone? That's it? Really? I believe the watch list changes caused more problems than that ever did, and I 100% agree that was a stupid, stupid decision to cater to nullsec dwellers. Why not just make it so any super cap ship you log in piloting with has a trait that blocks the buddy list? Would that not solve the problem, while still keeping high sec merc contracts a thing? Dumb. If ganking was no longer a thing, why does CODE exist? You know, that's like, all they do for the most part. And do you think other corporations have not risen up to try and combat them? Those are called anti-gankers, they are still here too. Basically this: You: They removed hi sec PvP! Ganking is harder now! Me: But ganking still happens....alot...see? What the hell are you talking about? You: You don't understand! CCP shouldn't listen to you! You are making a claim that has no evidence to back it up, saying an aspect of gameplay is no longer there, when there are piles of evidence to show that it is, and basing EVE's declining player base on this flawed argument. No, I don't agree with it.
Arcelian Metentis 200	Posted - 2016.10.01 22:38:48 - [1827] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Arcelian wrote: So what you are saying is the primary problem is that it's now harder to gank people. That is the primary cause of the loss of thousands of subs. Is that what you are saying? What I am saying is that a lot of content has been removed. Ganking is just one of the affected areas, we have seen some activities entirely destroyed. Ninja salvaging, jetcan piracy and targeted wardecs are now best described as extinct. Your response is exactly what I was talking about, you don't understand that by continually nerfing ganking has had a negetive effect on the very miners you want to protect. It used to be that miner ganking was focused on profitable targets, if you fitted a good tank on your hulk you would not be ganked. Now its a case of every hulk is a target to the one organisation left doing miner ganking because every miner is now unprofitable. So while miner ganks have collapsed in number the miners are infact less safe in a hulk because the gankers that are left no longer have a reason to target specific barges, they target anyone. Then we also have the loss of jetcan mining and the pirates jetcan flipping. You no longer see miners willing to jump into a pvp ship to fight pirates because there is no need. You also don't see them making traps for these pirates anymore because, again, due to the changes there is no need for jetcans and thus, no pirates to trap. And then we move onto the targeted wardecs, which thanks to the removal of the watch list are all but impossible, which means miners that get a war dec are far less likely to have to defend themselves if they move around in the outskirts of highsec. Now you will probably be thinking "Great! Miners are less likely to be killed!" and you are right, they are far far less likely to be shot at as a miner in 2016 than in 2011. But, that also means as a miner you have a fraction of the content you used to have in 2011, a fraction of the challenges, a far more boring world to play in. The end result is more people quit not only because all of the nerfs to the people who think of themselves as PvP players but also the PvE players, simply because mining is a lot more boring and a lot less social today than 5 years ago. And this is just a small part of the content we have lost. Yes, making miner ganking profitable again would be a good change. I strongly agree with your other post a while back allowing exhumers to have more flexibility in fittings, allowing the player to decide how hard a nut that exhumer needs to be to crack. I do agree that jetcan mining needs to be a thing again. I blame the mackinaw. I was really hoping with these recent changes they would return the hulk to the king of mining, that no other exhumer would even come close. I'm talking the hulk is at least a 40% better miner than the rest. And yes, now the hulk is better than the mack by a larger margin, but it's not nearly a large enough margin to make people use it and actually have to pay attention to the miner in the belt. Why CCP can't understand that I'll never know. Let me make this clear: I don't give a flying **** about high sec miners. If CCP made all exhumers have an EHP of 500 tomorrow and drop a plex on destruiction, I'd rejoice in the fact that mineral prices are now going through the roof, and laugh all the way to the bank. 99% of all ganks to miners can be thwarted by simply BEING AT THE KEYS PAYING ATTENTION. I have no sympathy for the "I mine at work or while watching netflix" crowd. Some of those have been at the receiving end of my guns actually. I don't disagree with you saying a lot of high sec content needs to come back to the game. I agree with pretty much every point you made. More content is never a bad thing, eve thrives on conflict. I just disagree that it's the primary cause of the loss of subs. The removal of ISboxers, banning of a lot of bot accounts, and the snoozefest since goons lost space in null I think is more the cause. The game was far more healthy when they held most of the power, I hope it returns that way. That being said, I hope CCP is listening and implements what you suggest, I just don't believe it will have the effect you think it will.
Arcelian Metentis 200	Posted - 2016.10.01 22:53:25 - [1828] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Arcelian wrote: baltec1 wrote: Arcelian wrote: This may be a contributing factor, I won't deny that. But I think it's hardly the only factor that caused the decline. Any lack of conflict is bad. I don't think ganking caused a significant amount of players to quit either.....even though having been on the giving end of ganks myself,I know I have caused some players to never show up again. Or rather. shortly after the gank occured they never logged in again, I don't know if I caused it. Ultimately I believe it boils down to the NPE, CCP has stated themselves that most people quit early on. Most of those probably never engaged in pvp at all. Maybe have Aura give new players a stack of 10 t1 frigates, and the tutorial gives a reward of 5 million isk for every one of those that gets blown up by another capsuleer? NPE could do with work but its not the primary problem. The issue is a lack of easily accessible content that used to exist but no longer does. So what you are saying is the primary problem is that it's now harder to gank people. That is the primary cause of the loss of thousands of subs. Is that what you are saying? Look...hmmm... Okay, let me help you. Lets try a thought experiment. Suppose CCP, in their infinite wisdom (now stop laughing and go with it) decide to just simply ban ganking. They make CONCORD response times 1 second in every system, they buff the freighter EHP 100x, and also will permaban anyone still trying to or even succeeding at ganking. It is now gone for good. Gankers lose content right? What do you think they are going to do? Start mining? Run missions? Probably not. Some might go back to HS after biomassing gank alts (after extracting any surplus SP), but some of them will likely leave. Good you say? Well, let me bring in the ghost of Frederic Bastiat. Ever hear of him? No? Not surprised he died like 166 years ago. He pointed out that there are effects you can see (the seen) and those you can't see (the unseen). His parable that he is most known for is the broken window fallacy. The gist of the story is that a young lad breaks a shoe makers window, and the show maker hires a window repair man, and the typical response is: don't be too hard on the lad because he just created economic activity. But Bastiat said (paraphrasing here), "No, because that $5 or whatever to repair the window spent by the shoe maker can't be spent at the butchers, brewers or bakers businesses, and net wealth has not changed. Thus there is no net gain." How does that apply here, well with not ganking there is no anti-ganking. The AG crowd also loses content. In fact, we see that with Onictus posts where he describes how he lost content over time too but not in the obvious (the seen) way, but in the non-obvious way (the unseen). You....you simply do not apprehend the unseen with respect to these nerfs. You are wearing blinders and your mind is closed. You are the last person CCP should ever listen too. Oh, and if you want to dismiss Bastiat...go ahead. However, his parable of the broken window fallacy is the first known articulation of the concept known as opportunity cost. That concept people point to why "mining your own minerals to build stuff are not free". As I already stated, I don't care about ganking. Buff it to the end of time, doesn't really affect me. Yes, I understand the logic behind what you are saying. Baltec put it well, and educated me on many ways how high sec pvp has been limited with nerfs and what not. I agree that in general these were bad moves. I just don't believe they are the root cause. With the exception of the watch list changes, that seriously cut the balls off of most high sec mercenaries. Unfortunately, CCP has already said "Sorry, our game, suck it up". Slightly paraphrasing there, but the same general idea. Do I believe getting ganked causes some players to quit the game? Yes. Do I believe the lack of high sec content causes some to quit the game? Yes. Do I think that either of these things have caused the loss of thousands of subs to EVE? Nope.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5289	Posted - 2016.10.01 23:03:56 - [1829] - Quote Arcelian wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Arcelian wrote: baltec1 wrote: Arcelian wrote: This may be a contributing factor, I won't deny that. But I think it's hardly the only factor that caused the decline. Any lack of conflict is bad. I don't think ganking caused a significant amount of players to quit either.....even though having been on the giving end of ganks myself,I know I have caused some players to never show up again. Or rather. shortly after the gank occured they never logged in again, I don't know if I caused it. Ultimately I believe it boils down to the NPE, CCP has stated themselves that most people quit early on. Most of those probably never engaged in pvp at all. Maybe have Aura give new players a stack of 10 t1 frigates, and the tutorial gives a reward of 5 million isk for every one of those that gets blown up by another capsuleer? NPE could do with work but its not the primary problem. The issue is a lack of easily accessible content that used to exist but no longer does. So what you are saying is the primary problem is that it's now harder to gank people. That is the primary cause of the loss of thousands of subs. Is that what you are saying? Look...hmmm... Okay, let me help you. Lets try a thought experiment. Suppose CCP, in their infinite wisdom (now stop laughing and go with it) decide to just simply ban ganking. They make CONCORD response times 1 second in every system, they buff the freighter EHP 100x, and also will permaban anyone still trying to or even succeeding at ganking. It is now gone for good. Gankers lose content right? What do you think they are going to do? Start mining? Run missions? Probably not. Some might go back to HS after biomassing gank alts (after extracting any surplus SP), but some of them will likely leave. Good you say? Well, let me bring in the ghost of Frederic Bastiat. Ever hear of him? No? Not surprised he died like 166 years ago. He pointed out that there are effects you can see (the seen) and those you can't see (the unseen). His parable that he is most known for is the broken window fallacy. The gist of the story is that a young lad breaks a shoe makers window, and the show maker hires a window repair man, and the typical response is: don't be too hard on the lad because he just created economic activity. But Bastiat said (paraphrasing here), "No, because that $5 or whatever to repair the window spent by the shoe maker can't be spent at the butchers, brewers or bakers businesses, and net wealth has not changed. Thus there is no net gain." How does that apply here, well with not ganking there is no anti-ganking. The AG crowd also loses content. In fact, we see that with Onictus posts where he describes how he lost content over time too but not in the obvious (the seen) way, but in the non-obvious way (the unseen). You....you simply do not apprehend the unseen with respect to these nerfs. You are wearing blinders and your mind is closed. You are the last person CCP should ever listen too. Oh, and if you want to dismiss Bastiat...go ahead. However, his parable of the broken window fallacy is the first known articulation of the concept known as opportunity cost. That concept people point to why "mining your own minerals to build stuff are not free". As I already stated, I don't care about ganking. Yes, I understand the logic behind what you are saying. Baltec put it well, and educated me on many ways how high sec pvp has been limited with nerfs and what not. I agree that in general these were bad moves. I just don't believe they are the root cause. With the exception of the watch list changes, that seriously cut the balls off of most high sec mercenaries. Unfortunately, CCP has already said "Sorry, our game, suck it up". Slightly paraphrasing there, but the same general idea. Do I believe getting ganked causes some players to quit the game? Yes. Do I believe the lack of high sec content causes some to quit the game? Yes. Do I think that either of these things have caused the loss of thousands of subs to EVE? Nope. Let me put it more simply then... Removing content is bad for maintaining subs. EvE is a, at it's core, a PvP game. As such, removing any PvP content is likely to cause issues with maintaining let alone increasing subs. And yes, CCP can say, "Sorry, our game, suck it up." But they are completely blinkered if they think that is our only option. Look at the number of subs that currently log in. We have the option of voting with out wallets. And look...looks like alot of people have vetoed the game with their wallets. CCP has been very adept at monetizing those who are left, but even that has a limit. The bottom line is that the trend is not looking good. Perhaps it is time to consider adding to HS PvP. HS is where people with limited amounts of time can log in and do stuff. Making it so there is less stuff to do and the stuff that remains is horribly boring...bad strategy. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
March rabbit Mosquito Squadron The-Culture 1918	Posted - 2016.10.01 23:52:24 - [1830] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Lets try a thought experiment. Suppose CCP, in their infinite wisdom (now stop laughing and go with it) decide to just simply ban ganking. They make CONCORD response times 1 second in every system, they buff the freighter EHP 100x, and also will permaban anyone still trying to or even succeeding at ganking. It is now gone for good. Gankers lose content right? What do you think they are going to do? Start mining? Run missions? Probably not. Some might go back to HS after biomassing gank alts (after extracting any surplus SP), but some of them will likely leave. ... and now we can recall some people saying that 'most' or 'many of' gankers are alts of nullseccers. I don't remember who did say this but it is usually being said as answer to "code has no balls to fight ships with guns" as "LoL, these are alts of nullseccers who pvp's all day and night". And having this in mind what will all these 'alts' do? Yeah. It really does not matter actually. Because all these mythical "nullseccers who pvps all day and night" will still do their stuff. Yes, AG people could lose their content. But overall it does not look like big loss already is it? The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5289	Posted - 2016.10.02 05:33:31 - [1831] - Quote March rabbit wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Lets try a thought experiment. Suppose CCP, in their infinite wisdom (now stop laughing and go with it) decide to just simply ban ganking. They make CONCORD response times 1 second in every system, they buff the freighter EHP 100x, and also will permaban anyone still trying to or even succeeding at ganking. It is now gone for good. Gankers lose content right? What do you think they are going to do? Start mining? Run missions? Probably not. Some might go back to HS after biomassing gank alts (after extracting any surplus SP), but some of them will likely leave. ... and now we can recall some people saying that 'most' or 'many of' gankers are alts of nullseccers. I don't remember who did say this but it is usually being said as answer to "code has no balls to fight ships with guns" as "LoL, these are alts of nullseccers who pvp's all day and night". And having this in mind what will all these 'alts' do? Yeah. It really does not matter actually. Because all these mythical "nullseccers who pvps all day and night" will still do their stuff. Yes, AG people could lose their content. But overall it does not look like big loss already is it? There you go again. Assuming Bravo Sierra. Since he is leaving (hopefully has left) are you after his crown as Chief BadGäó? I imagine that some gankers in HS are alts, some are mains. What is the break, no freaking idea. But undoubtedly some would leave with an additional round of nerfing. As has happened with previous rounds of nerfing. Go back and look at the EvE Offline data. Look at when the war between Goons/the Imperium vs. IWI started. Logins started trending up. When Goons bailed and headed south...oh look the trend changed. It is now heading back up, but most likely that is seasonality. Bottom line: IMO PvP is what drives logins. Having been in NS/LS for almost 8 years I can tell you that when we have a war, or PvP on a regular basis people log in. When we don't they don't. So don't be so glib dismissing the removal of ganking. I don't think you completely understand the situation...you are too narrow minded. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
March rabbit Mosquito Squadron The-Culture 1919	Posted - 2016.10.02 08:59:15 - [1832] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: March rabbit wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Lets try a thought experiment. Suppose CCP, in their infinite wisdom (now stop laughing and go with it) decide to just simply ban ganking. They make CONCORD response times 1 second in every system, they buff the freighter EHP 100x, and also will permaban anyone still trying to or even succeeding at ganking. It is now gone for good. Gankers lose content right? What do you think they are going to do? Start mining? Run missions? Probably not. Some might go back to HS after biomassing gank alts (after extracting any surplus SP), but some of them will likely leave. ... and now we can recall some people saying that 'most' or 'many of' gankers are alts of nullseccers. I don't remember who did say this but it is usually being said as answer to "code has no balls to fight ships with guns" as "LoL, these are alts of nullseccers who pvp's all day and night". And having this in mind what will all these 'alts' do? Yeah. It really does not matter actually. Because all these mythical "nullseccers who pvps all day and night" will still do their stuff. Yes, AG people could lose their content. But overall it does not look like big loss already is it? I imagine that some gankers in HS are alts, some are mains. What is the break, no freaking idea. But undoubtedly some would leave with an additional round of nerfing. As has happened with previous rounds of nerfing. Yes, like some others left when died afk lvl4 farming, when multiboxing was nerfed. Some will leave in November when OGB will be removed (my alt already sold all SP from leadership in preparation to this event). I can imagine every nerf (or like some like to call it 'need to adapt again') leads to some people leaving the game. Teckos Pech wrote: Go back and look at the EvE Offline data. Look at when the war between Goons/the Imperium vs. IWI started. Logins started trending up. When Goons bailed and headed south...oh look the trend changed. It is now heading back up, but most likely that is seasonality. Bottom line: IMO PvP is what drives logins. Having been in NS/LS for almost 8 years I can tell you that when we have a war, or PvP on a regular basis people log in. When we don't they don't. It's very known fact. Hype when big 0.0 sec war or huge battle always leads to people resubscribe or new people come. When it stops - many leave again. I resubscribed to take part in Casino War too. But was like 2 months late and didn't see anything interesting But yeah, i have returned from year of vacation. Teckos Pech wrote: So don't be so glib dismissing the removal of ganking. I don't think you completely understand the situation...you are too narrow minded. You have drawn a picture when gankers are mains and nerfing ganking will lead to many quits. I have pointed that some people (need to say from pro-ganking team) say that ganking characters are mainly second alts of "real players". This makes "many quits" very unbelievable. At least it would be closer to multiboxer nerfs when people close their auxiliary alts. So yea.... "narrow minded" The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Drago Shouna Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 612	Posted - 2016.10.02 11:04:21 - [1833] - Quote [ This may be a contributing factor, I won't deny that. But I think it's hardly the only factor that caused the decline. Any lack of conflict is bad. I don't think ganking caused a significant amount of players to quit either.....even though having been on the giving end of ganks myself,I know I have caused some players to never show up again. Or rather. shortly after the gank occured they never logged in again, I don't know if I caused it. Ultimately I believe it boils down to the NPE, CCP has stated themselves that most people quit early on. Most of those probably never engaged in pvp at all. Maybe have Aura give new players a stack of 10 t1 frigates, and the tutorial gives a reward of 5 million isk for every one of those that gets blown up by another capsuleer? [/quote] NPE could do with work but its not the primary problem. The issue is a lack of easily accessible content that used to exist but no longer does.[/quote] So what you are saying is the primary problem is that it's now harder to gank people. That is the primary cause of the loss of thousands of subs. Is that what you are saying?[/quote] Look...hmmm... Okay, let me help you. Lets try a thought experiment. Suppose CCP, in their infinite wisdom (now stop laughing and go with it) decide to just simply ban ganking. They make CONCORD response times 1 second in every system, they buff the freighter EHP 100x, and also will permaban anyone still trying to or even succeeding at ganking. It is now gone for good. Gankers lose content right? What do you think they are going to do? Start mining? Run missions? Probably not. Some might go back to HS after biomassing gank alts (after extracting any surplus SP), but some of them will likely leave. Good you say? Well, let me bring in the ghost of Frederic Bastiat. Ever hear of him? No? Not surprised he died like 166 years ago. He pointed out that there are effects you can see (the seen) and those you can't see (the unseen). His parable that he is most known for is the broken window fallacy. The gist of the story is that a young lad breaks a shoe makers window, and the show maker hires a window repair man, and the typical response is: don't be too hard on the lad because he just created economic activity. But Bastiat said (paraphrasing here), "No, because that $5 or whatever to repair the window spent by the shoe maker can't be spent at the butchers, brewers or bakers businesses, and net wealth has not changed. Thus there is no net gain." How does that apply here, well with not ganking there is no anti-ganking. The AG crowd also loses content. In fact, we see that with Onictus posts where he describes how he lost content over time too but not in the obvious (the seen) way, but in the non-obvious way (the unseen). You....you simply do not apprehend the unseen with respect to these nerfs. You are wearing blinders and your mind is closed. You are the last person CCP should ever listen too. Oh, and if you want to dismiss Bastiat...go ahead. However, his parable of the broken window fallacy is the first known articulation of the concept known as opportunity cost. That concept people point to why "mining your own minerals to build stuff are not free".[/quote] As I already stated, I don't care about ganking. Yes, I understand the logic behind what you are saying. Baltec put it well, and educated me on many ways how high sec pvp has been limited with nerfs and what not. I agree that in general these were bad moves. I just don't believe they are the root cause. With the exception of the watch list changes, that seriously cut the balls off of most high sec mercenaries. Unfortunately, CCP has already said "Sorry, our game, suck it up". Slightly paraphrasing there, but the same general idea. Do I believe getting ganked causes some players to quit the game? Yes. Do I believe the lack of high sec content causes some to quit the game? Yes. Do I think that either of these things have caused the loss of thousands of subs to EVE? Nope. [/quote] Let me put it more simply then... Removing content is bad for maintaining subs. EvE is a, at it's core, a PvP game. As such, removing any PvP content is likely to cause issues with maintaining let alone increasing subs. And yes, CCP can say, "Sorry, our game, suck it up." But they are completely blinkered if they think that is our only option. Look at the number of subs that currently log in. We have the option of voting with out wallets. And look...looks like alot of people have vetoed the game with their wallets. CCP has been very adept at monetizing those who are left, but even that has a limit. The bottom line is that the trend is not looking good. Perhaps it is time to consider adding to HS PvP. HS is where people with limited amounts of time can log in and do stuff. Making it so there is less stuff to do and the stuff that remains is horribly boring...bad strategy.[/quote] Rubbish, you're just after easy kills.. Any player now can log in for 15 mins and find as much pvp as he/she wants in Provi and other places..The only ones screaming for more HS pvp are the ones who can't face players perfectly willing and able to shoot back. As for HS, again, there's as much as you can handle, go wardec Marmite or the other big merc corps..you'll get as many fights as you want. Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want." Welcome to EVE.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18239	Posted - 2016.10.02 11:14:51 - [1834] - Quote Drago Shouna wrote: Rubbish, you're just after easy kills.. Any player now can log in for 15 mins and find as much pvp as he/she wants in Provi and other places..The only ones screaming for more HS pvp are the ones who can't face players perfectly willing and able to shoot back. Try again.
Drago Shouna Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 614	Posted - 2016.10.02 11:17:31 - [1835] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Drago Shouna wrote: Rubbish, you're just after easy kills.. Any player now can log in for 15 mins and find as much pvp as he/she wants in Provi and other places..The only ones screaming for more HS pvp are the ones who can't face players perfectly willing and able to shoot back. Try again. I have no need to. Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want." Welcome to EVE.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18239	Posted - 2016.10.02 11:22:54 - [1836] - Quote Drago Shouna wrote: I have no need to. Drago Shouna wrote: The only ones screaming for more HS pvp are the ones who can't face players perfectly willing and able to shoot back. Oh I think you do.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5289	Posted - 2016.10.02 19:25:16 - [1837] - Quote Drago Shouna wrote: Rubbish, you're just after easy kills.. Any player now can log in for 15 mins and find as much pvp as he/she wants in Provi and other places..The only ones screaming for more HS pvp are the ones who can't face players perfectly willing and able to shoot back. As for HS, again, there's as much as you can handle, go wardec Marmite or the other big merc corps..you'll get as many fights as you want. And there it is, the attempt to down play PvP as not the "right kind" of PvP or not the "honorable" type of PvP. The old, "I don't mind if CCP removes PvP I disapprove of," type of mentality. In short another narrow minded blowhard with an agenda. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Sitting Bull Lakota SBL Co 169	Posted - 2016.10.03 11:11:56 - [1838] - Quote Well, I've wardec'd Marmite (indirectly). Let's see if Drago's theory can hold water. It's only been a day, but it's looking like Drago's "dec Marmite" shtick won't deliver. And why should it? Tora's running a business. If his members are just sitting around in station waiting for any random wartarget to ring the service bell, then he's losing money. All those contacts he's running need people to work them. Marmite is too busy to just hang around waiting to give content to every random passerby.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 1127	Posted - 2016.10.03 15:47:40 - [1839] - Quote **** me. Wrong thread. I'm an idiot. Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
ISD Max Trix isd community communications liaisons 377	Posted - 2016.10.03 16:32:28 - [1840] - Quote Well this thread had a great run. Thanks for your input, you gave us a lot to think about. Closed. ISD Max Trix Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department *I do not respond to Evemails.*

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