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Gaia Thorn
Villains
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.21 14:33:00 -
[91]
o yeah forgot.
What happend to all eve exspansions are FREE ??
Seeing that this is a exspansion to the game ccp is sorta breking their biggest selling point.
For me this is a slippery slope when introducing "premium" features to the game.
This could lead to us paying for expansions and hell even ships and mods if you want to make it extreme.
T1 = start stuff
T2 = better T1 stuff
T3 = solo pwn mobile stuff for RL cash
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Winterblink
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.03.21 14:39:00 -
[92]
 Originally by: Gaia Thorn
o yeah forgot.
What happend to all eve exspansions are FREE ??
Seeing that this is a exspansion to the game ccp is sorta breking their biggest selling point.
For me this is a slippery slope when introducing "premium" features to the game.
This could lead to us paying for expansions and hell even ships and mods if you want to make it extreme.
T1 = start stuff
T2 = better T1 stuff
T3 = solo pwn mobile stuff for RL cash
Just to comment on that slippery slope, if people would just quit proving to the gaming industry time and time again that they're willing to pay real life money for in-game gear and money, maybe we wouldn't see official attempts to get in on the action (ex. Everquest2's Marketplace).
I'm of course not suggesting that's what CCP's trying to do here. :)
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Soulita
Gallente
Inner Core
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Posted - 2007.03.21 14:39:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Soulita on 21/03/2007 14:38:38
Originally by: Winterblink
Originally by: Soulita
The problem with the feature is, it is in effect an add on that costs RL extra money. Splitting the community and breaking CCPs promise not to charge extra for add ons.
CCP's "promise" was not to charge extra for expansion content. You don't NEED this to play EVE, not having it won't keep you from flying to any place you want, or getting access to new ships and gear. The Voice stuff is not new complexes, new NPCs, new deployable gear for POSes, or anything like that.
This is not entirely correct. If a corp of your friends for example turns "Voip only", and you dont have it, then in effect you wont be able to effectively fly complexes, hunt new npcs etc etc with them.
Making the feature
a) anti-social
b) limiting access to game content to you (if you dont want to switch friends because of the new 'feature')
There is a difference between primary directly visible effects, and those that are more indirect but still true and just as important.
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Winterblink
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.03.21 14:40:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Soulita
This is not entirely correct. If a corp of your friends for example turns "Voip only", and you dont have it, then in effect you wont be able to effectively fly complexes, hunt new npcs etc etc with them.
There is a difference between primary directly visible effects, and those that are more indirect but still true and just as important.
TS and Ventrilo do that right now when it comes to fleet combat.
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Daelin Blackleaf
No Joy Corp
Pride - Honor - Duty
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Posted - 2007.03.21 14:48:00 -
[95]
It is not free because it is not handled by CCP. It's a service provided by an outside company with their own servers and their own costs.
CCP's only other options would be to provide the service themselves (which would require a lot of dedictation and likely cost them more than getting vivox to do it) or to pay it themselves. Either way the price gets passed down to us either as an extra ú1 a month or as reduced content/fixes due to the money going elsewhere.
As for the TS/Vent fans, yes the fact that it works out of game is a HUGE advantage. It's being worked on with Vivox. Get me a TS server with 30,000+ slots and we'll talk comparitive prices.
This feature is basically in it's first and most basic implementation, likely to see if money can be made from it before more money is spent on it. If it does well expect to see far more from it, including yet closer integration with the client and other added features you will never see on TS/Vent. The added separate price ensures that Vivox must perform well, they must improve, it means that they compete with others instead of receiving a monopoly on EvE voice comms at which point advancement grinds to a halt.
There will in time be other corporations offering similar services to Vivox due to the increasing size of the MMO market. Competition will keep these services healthy and progressing.
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Soulita
Gallente
Inner Core
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Posted - 2007.03.21 14:48:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Soulita on 21/03/2007 14:53:01
Edited by: Soulita on 21/03/2007 14:45:06
Originally by: Winterblink
Originally by: Soulita
This is not entirely correct. If a corp of your friends for example turns "Voip only", and you dont have it, then in effect you wont be able to effectively fly complexes, hunt new npcs etc etc with them.
Making the feature
a) anti-social
b) limiting access to game content to you (if you dont want to switch friends because of the new 'feature')
There is a difference between primary directly visible effects, and those that are more indirect but still true and just as important.
TS and Ventrilo do that right now when it comes to fleet combat.
Somehow yes, but there is a difference.
Alliances or corps using Vent or TS can invite you to fly with them. They just give you guest access to their TS or Vent. This will cost you nothing. Look at Burn Edens downtime TS for example. This has a community combining effect, not a splitting one like vivox.
If you want to fly with a corp or alliance that uses vivox you would have to subscribe to vivox and pay for it. Fairly big difference, and not a good one.
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Winterblink
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.03.21 14:57:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Soulita
Somehow yes, but there is a difference.
Alliances or corps using Vent or TS can invite you to fly with them. They just give you a guest access to their TS or Vent. This will cost you nothing. Look at Burn Edens downtime TS for example. Unlike vivox this has a community combining effect, not a splitting one like vivox.
If you want to fly with a corp or alliance that uses vivox you would have to subscribe to vivox and pay for it. Fairly big difference.
You seem to be bouncing between two main points: cost (barrier to entry, if you will), and exclusion from content.
Now previously you posted a suggestion for them to bump the monthly subscription cost up so everyone gets the feature. I read that as that you're really not concerned about the cost of the feature, correct? Yet as evidenced above, you still keep coming back to it as a point of contention.
If that's so, then your argument of it being antisocial (the exclusion bit) is entirely without merit, since you have no issues with the barrier to entry. Thus whether it's integrated into the default subscription or not doesn't seem to matter, based on the rest of your posts.
Just trying to understand what your issue with it really is, that's all.
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aeti
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.03.21 14:59:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
And Vivox can do everything TS/Vent can do
no it can't
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Mirana Niranne
Gallente
The Ninja Coalition
Phobos Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.21 15:08:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Mirana Niranne on 21/03/2007 15:07:26
Originally by: Cosmos Elf
400 member corp total cost for Eve Voice:
$4000/year or $333.34/month
400 member corp total cost for Teamspeak:
$960/year or $80/month (Based on a quick google for prices. There is possibly cheaper hosting out there.)
First up, $4000 for the first year, after that it would be $6000. If you have alts, you need vivox for each account or you have to switch between clients to chat. Using TS you just use your PTT button regardless of the window you have open.
I won't get into the voice quality over features debate, to me all I care is that I can hear people clearly. From a monetary standpoint though, $0.85 a month is a ripoff for a single voice user, and $1.25 a month after the first year is DEFINTELY a ripoff when you consider the service my corp uses costs us $0.30 per user per month. IF we needed everyone to pay their way, each person would need to give us $3.60 a year for their share of the service (which since it's corp supported, those who can't afford jack squat can still use our voice through their free client). Now keep in mind this is from a hosting service that is making a PROFIT from us. |
Mortuus
Minmatar
Just-fun
Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2007.03.21 15:10:00 -
[100]
OMG $1 a month? How ever will I survive!!
Wait, let me get that change I got from lunch yesterday....yea, thats about half of it in coin. Sweet.
We'll probably be using Vent/TS/Vivox; TS for the alliance, Vent for corp, and Vivox so I can talk to the tons of friends I have in EvE without us all switching from one server to another constantly.
ex-Occassus Republica <3 |
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Soulita
Gallente
Inner Core
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Posted - 2007.03.21 15:37:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Soulita on 21/03/2007 15:47:56
Edited by: Soulita on 21/03/2007 15:35:49
Originally by: Winterblink
You seem to be bouncing between two main points: cost (barrier to entry, if you will), and exclusion from content.
Both points are true.
Originally by: Winterblink
Now previously you posted a suggestion for them to bump the monthly subscription cost up so everyone gets the feature. I read that as that you're really not concerned about the cost of the feature, correct? Yet as evidenced above, you still keep coming back to it as a point of contention.
Incorrect. It is very likely not everyone - actually maybe only a minority of people - will choose to purchase the vivox service - due to the relatively high extra cost (Around 7% extra).
The more people use vivox, the less extra charge is neccesary per person to break even or make a profit with it. Of course there is a limit on how cheap it can get due to bandwith useage.
Still, a slight increase of subscription fee for everyone (lets say 1% to 3%) would have a similar financial effect for CCP/vivox as charging a lot extra for it for some (around 7% as it is now). At the same time this would turn vivox from a community splitting into a community combining feature, since everyone could use it.
Originally by: Winterblink
If that's so, then your argument of it being antisocial (the exclusion bit) is entirely without merit, since you have no issues with the barrier to entry. Thus whether it's integrated into the default subscription or not doesn't seem to matter, based on the rest of your posts.
Untrue, as you can see by what I said above.
Originally by: Winterblink
Just trying to understand what your issue with it really is, that's all.
Hope that helped.
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Harisdrop
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.03.21 15:47:00 -
[102]
The best part of VIVOX is that only those that want it will be using it. Therefore no whining...
Can you say that about TS vs Vent???
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Winterblink
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.03.21 15:50:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Soulita
The more people use vivox, the less extra charge is neccesary per person to break even or make a profit with it.
Tell that to my long distance carrier, mobile carrier, power and utilities providers, and the jerks who I give money to whenever I pump my gas. Oh and the movie and music industries too. Seriously, are you expecting anything different? More people are playing EVE now than when it launched, and the price hasn't dropped a cent. Why get all up in arms over the voice support?
Originally by: Soulita
Still, a slight increase of subscription fee for everyone (lets say 1% to 3%) would have a similar financial effect for CCP/vivox as charging a lot extra for it for some (around 7% as it is now), while at the same time bringing the added benefit that vivox could turn from a community splitting into a community combining feature, since everyone could use it.
Hope that helped.
Yes, but I still entirely disagree with you on the whole "community splitting" issue. It would have been an issue already with TS and Ventrilo, and I don't see anyone breaking out the torches and pitchforks over that.
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Soulita
Gallente
Inner Core
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Posted - 2007.03.21 16:02:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Winterblink
Originally by: Soulita
Hope that helped.
Yes, but I still entirely disagree with you...TS..Vent...
Well, we are turning around in circles. I already answered the part about TS and Vent.
Originally by: Soulita
Alliances or corps using Vent or TS can invite you to fly with them. They just give you guest access to their TS or Vent. This will cost you nothing. Look at Burn Edens downtime TS for example. This has a community combining effect, not a splitting one like vivox.
If you want to fly with a corp or alliance that uses vivox you would have to subscribe to vivox and pay for it. Fairly big difference, and not a good one.
Honestly winter, you are disappointing me a bit. Vivox is splitting the community as it is introduced atm, vivox costs more than it could/should etc. And you still keep protecting it?
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Winterblink
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.03.21 16:27:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Soulita
Honestly winter, you are disappointing me a bit. Vivox is splitting the community as it is introduced atm, vivox costs more than it could/should etc. And you still keep protecting it?
I'm not protecting it, I just don't see the value in making assumptions on the effects of something which was only just implemented. You're not the first to have these concerns, and a lot of those were addressed by the Vivox session at Fanfest. If you weren't there to haven't seen any kind of transcript of it, you missed out on a very informative presentation.
Nobody HAS to use it. But I think the hope is that it will show its value through some of the more interesting integration features that are possible, because as a standalone VOIP solution it would be no different than paying for a TS or Vent server.
Anyway, try not to lump me in to the corporate-shill pile, because that's not my intent.
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Professional Troll
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Posted - 2007.03.21 16:27:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Soulita
Incorrect. It is very likely not everyone - actually maybe only a minority of people - will choose to purchase the vivox service - due to the relatively high extra cost (Around 7% extra).
You realize that most companies charge 15-30% extra for optional content extensions? Blizzard charges roughly 10% assuming the player has been a subscriber from the beginning, SOE is close to 20%... and that's all I can think off the top of my head.
Originally by: Soulita
The more people use vivox, the less extra charge is neccesary per person to break even or make a profit with it. Of course there is a limit on how cheap it can get due to bandwith useage.
And it cost Blizzard ($40+7 million subscribers) $280 million dollars to develope the expansion for their game?
Originally by: Soulita
Still, a slight increase of subscription fee for everyone (lets say 1% to 3%) would have a similar financial effect for CCP/vivox as charging a lot extra for it for some (around 7% as it is now). At the same time this would turn vivox from a community splitting into a community combining feature, since everyone could use it.
What about the people who don't have headsets? Or the ones who are running EVE on bare minimum systems or systems without sound cards?
Your toys suck!
|T|R|O|L|L|I|N|G| My anti-drug.
Because CCP won't let me be an attention ***** any more and I don't want to become a ***** head  . |
Ogul
Caldari
ZiTek Deepspace Explorations
Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2007.03.21 16:29:00 -
[107]
Basically this is just an increase in subscription fees by approx. 8% (monthly payment assumed), at some point everybody will just have to use it.
What I don't like is that a CTD/disconnect will now disrupt all communications. I haven't tried it, but does client lag influence voice communication too?
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Winterblink
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.03.21 16:33:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Ogul
Basically this is just an increase in subscription fees by approx. 8% (monthly payment assumed), at some point everybody will just have to use it.
What I don't like is that a CTD/disconnect will now disrupt all communications. I haven't tried it, but does client lag influence voice communication too?
That was definitely talked about at FF. If I recall correctly, and someone can feel free to correct me if they see fit, the response was essentially that Vivox has contingencies for this, such as external software that can pick up on dropped connections to their service. So it'd be like a client on your desktop, and if EVE drops it just picks up so you can hear everyone moaning about how their node just got nuked.
No idea if that's allowed with CCP's solution though. Again, I think the intent is to bring out a starter service and see what the response is, and add on the funky stuff as we go forward. Which is a smart way to do things, if you ask me.
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Soulita
Gallente
Inner Core
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Posted - 2007.03.21 16:39:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Soulita on 21/03/2007 16:38:05
Originally by: Winterblink
Nobody HAS to use it...
No offense, but we realy are turning around in circles.
Here your answer, was a reply to you in this thread:
Originally by: Soulita
This is not entirely correct. If a corp of your friends for example turns "Voip only", and you dont have it, then in effect you wont be able to effectively fly complexes, hunt new npcs etc etc with them.
And please winter, stop making me quote again what I already said. If you have no new arguments, let it be.
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Harisdrop
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.03.21 16:47:00 -
[110]
I hope Vent and TS go the way of dual MWD.
It was a fad but now fleets that are run with VIVOX will run more efficient. People will get VIVOX cause its makes your gaming better. Soo sad we wont see you old schooler there.
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Soulita
Gallente
Inner Core
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Posted - 2007.03.21 16:49:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Harisdrop
I hope Vent and TS go the way of dual MWD.
It was a fad but now fleets that are run with VIVOX will run more efficient. People will get VIVOX cause its makes your gaming better. Soo sad we wont see you old schooler there.
Do you happen to be a vivox employee by any chance?
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Winterblink
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.03.21 17:01:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Soulita
And please winter, stop making me quote again what I already said. If you have no new arguments, let it be.
Please. All you seem to be able to do is say "you're wrong" and quote something you said earlier, instead of actually addressing what was said. That's not discussing, that's not even arguing (for the record, I was doing the former, not the latter).
And I "let it be" back when I said I understood what you were getting at, just disagreed with it.
fin
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Vendito
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Posted - 2007.03.21 17:09:00 -
[113]
Besides the quality and convenience of this new feature I think alliances are forgetting one huge benefit of this - security. It¦s always a pain in my alliance having to constantly resetting passwords and being on the lookout for spies that infiltrate the TS server. This is basically going to take that away, if you are not in the gang you can¦t listen in.
Yesterday I spoke to many very old friends that I have only chatted with until now, so I just think this stuff is great.
Will also be interesting when we can walk in stations and have Kariokee bars...
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Harisdrop
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.03.21 17:15:00 -
[114]
Looking for a website that will be posting the public channels.
I see the need to charge isk to visit channels.
I hope there is method to make a video with VIVOX imbedded of fleet combat.
can you see the implications
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Mintaric
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Posted - 2007.03.21 17:17:00 -
[115]
Sorry but I prefer Vivox to TS/vent.
I don't have to run a server for TS/Vent, I don't have to have both programs installed. I don't have to spend time figuring out IP address, ports and passwords just to be able to talk to someone. It saves alot of time.
You can get in a group and have chat instantly. It's a great help for a variety of situations.
I can see who is talking without having to alt/tab out to TS/Vent.
Better quality.
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Soulita
Gallente
Inner Core
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Posted - 2007.03.21 17:18:00 -
[116]
Edited by: Soulita on 21/03/2007 17:24:01
Edited by: Soulita on 21/03/2007 17:19:17
Originally by: Winterblink
Originally by: Soulita
And please winter, stop making me quote again what I already said. If you have no new arguments, let it be.
Please. All you seem to be able to do is say "you're wrong" and quote something you said earlier, instead of actually addressing what was said. That's not discussing, that's not even arguing (for the record, I was doing the former, not the latter).
And I "let it be" back when I said I understood what you were getting at, just disagreed with it.
fin
What you just wrote borders on flaming. I wont take it that way, since you are above those things I hope.
Go ahead and prove me wrong on my arguments if you can. But if you bring up the same points over and over again you will get the same valid arguments as an answer over and over again. This goes till you can prove them wrong, or stop. Since you could not prove them wrong, I am glad you say 'fin' from your part.
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Tissa
Minmatar
UK Corp
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Posted - 2007.03.21 17:36:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Soulita
repeated stuff over and over getting more stressed with each post
Good lord, the thing is under a day old also right now it is free just relax a tad please. People will try it out for themselves and see what it works for and what it's flaws are. No need to go on some big heart attack inducing campaign about it.
Personally I think with the 200 cap it clearly ain't going to work for corp/alliance but I suspect it will be more than useful when on gate camps for some amusement - you have your gang on TS and while away the hours chatting in other channels.
Take it for what it is and that's an optional fun new toy to play with and relax a bit.
My views do not represent those of my corp or alliance. (Joined UKC 19/09/06) |
Juwi Kotch
Gallente
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD
Galactic-Federation
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Posted - 2007.03.21 17:41:00 -
[118]
Soulita, of course you are correct with the community splitting point. Since I don't like repetition either, I only say that you have explained it well enough several times already.
Don't understand what's so difficult to see that...
Juwi Kotch
JOIN NOW, KLICK SIG! |
Soulita
Gallente
Inner Core
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Posted - 2007.03.21 17:48:00 -
[119]
Edited by: Soulita on 21/03/2007 17:46:11
Yup Juwi, you are right. I'll have some tea now 
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Grez
Minmatar
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.03.21 17:55:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Grez on 21/03/2007 17:55:00
Some information you Vivox bashers may like to know:
1)
It seems the quality is controlled via the ammount of bandwidth you have available. Two friends of mine (one on broadband like me, and one on a 56k connection) tried this out with me - the person with the 56k sounded a little worse off for quality than most, but I'd say it wasn't as bad as some TS servers I've used in my time. The broadband friend however sounded perfect, like any TS server.
2)
It's $10 for a year. That's less than $1 per month. AKA, nothing. I'm pretty much sure everyone and their grandma could afford this. Hell, I wouldn't even mind sub prices going up by $1 and including Vivox.
3)
EVE-Voice uses the Vivox servers, not TQ, or any of the EVE servers. Meaning it doesn't induce strain on the server(s).
4)
Vivox did a very large portion of the work. Only a small amount of work was needed by CCP (mainly UI changes I'd imagine, and settings implimentation, which is like writing a "Hello world" program for programmers like these).
5)
Whilst some people prefer third-party programs, others don't have two screens, or run the game in windowed mode. Therefor, they cannot see who is talking without asking "Who said that?". Intergrating Vivox into EVE makes it easier to see who is talking, and what is going on. If Jimmybob says "Enemy coming", you can instantly see who said it, and who they are (he may be set as group A's scout).
Also, exclusion via EVE-Voice? What the hell? TS and Ventrilo do exactly the same. Some users don't have it, or can't use it full stop (for unknown reasons). Doing this means that they don't have to be excluded. There's always someone (in my experience), having to relay commands via typing in gang. What if you no longer had to do that, and those that can't use TS/Vent, had EVE-Voice? They could simply join audio, and someone can relay the commands without having to type (although there will always be some silly fool who refuses to use Vent, TS or EVE-Voice).
6)
No-one is forcing you to use EVE-Voice. If you do not want to use it, don't use it. It's pretty simple to understand. This benifits many users, and doesn't for some. I can see this helping small corperations, or large alliances who no-longer want to burden one person with several hundred dollar bills every few months.
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