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IamBen
Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.06.21 00:37:00 -
[61]
Thx for the bump peoples... Dev response please... :)
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Griff'ster
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Posted - 2007.06.21 13:58:00 -
[62]
Well, I'm just an easy-going kind of guy, and what with all this speculatin' and supposin', I decided to make an observation by shooting myself with my other self. With LVL 4 trained, and an untanked condition, I took no armor damage until my shield was below 5%. In fact, the first evidence of damage with the absolute readout, shield indicated 0.9/315 when armor dropped ~12 pts.
I will try this again with small guns to better control the damage rate using other ships. Easier to find the threshold.
Without empirical evidence (wherein we should all get similar results with similar setups), or a dev telling us how the mathematical/statistical damage control strategy was coded, it's all speculatin' and supposin'. Paraphrasing Lord Kelvin: "If it can't be expressed in numbers, your knowledge of a thing is less than satisfactory." Quoting Griff'ster: "If you haven't measured a thing, you don't know a thing |
Ryf
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Posted - 2007.06.21 14:51:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Griff'ster Well, I'm just an easy-going kind of guy, and what with all this speculatin' and supposin', I decided to make an observation by shooting myself with my other self. With LVL 4 trained, and an untanked condition, I took no armor damage until my shield was below 5%. In fact, the first evidence of damage with the absolute readout the shield indicated 0.9/315 when armor dropped ~12 pts.
I will try this again with small guns to better control the damage rate using other ships. Easier to find the threshold.
Without empirical evidence (wherein we should all get similar results with similar setups), or a dev telling us how the mathematical/statistical damage control strategy was coded, it's all speculatin' and supposin'. [:)
I agree that we're all "speculatin' and supposin'", but your experiment seems to support my understanding of how this skill works (see post #22) as opposed to other explanations (see post #41).
But still, I wouldn't bet my left nut that I'm right.
I'm gonna attempt to put an end to all this speculatin' and actually get off my arse and petition the devs. I'm hoping for 1) an official explanation clarifying how the skill works, and 2) some acknowledgement that the skill is broken at Level 5 and some insight as to their plans (if any) to fix it. Anything else I need to ask for?
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Griff'ster
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Posted - 2007.06.21 15:54:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Griff''ster on 21/06/2007 15:56:05 Edited by: Griff''ster on 21/06/2007 15:54:23 An update; Just using 150mm rail after getting shields down low with missiles, the armor hitpoints did not change until shield hitpoints flashed zero. Even at 0.2, armor did not change. This is LVL 4, remember. I will not go to 5 unless I need other skills. I will do this several more times to see if it is random or fixed (is it always zero?).
"If you haven't measured a thing, you don't know a thing about a thing." |
Adeena Torcfist
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Posted - 2007.06.21 23:03:00 -
[65]
yes Ryf, point them to this Topic, as clearly they havent read it, & to come along, acknoledge its broken, & on the next update, fix it.
Maybe worth haveing an extra stat added to it, to make it worthwhile, for both armour & shiled tankers when Below 25%. Im sure the calculations wont be hard to implement on such a skill.
I just look forward to a comment from one of them, followed by a solution.
we can then all go on our merry way & wait for the bug to be fixed, as in my eyes, thats what it is.
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Kwint Sommer
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Posted - 2007.06.27 07:36:00 -
[66]
I will be training this skill to L5 rather soon and would like a dev comment on just how it works (aka. is training this skill bad for passive tankers?) and whether L5 is broken.
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Meriones
Maelstrom Crew
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Posted - 2007.06.27 14:03:00 -
[67]
devs must be asleep
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Ryf
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.06.27 14:56:00 -
[68]
I finally got off my arse and petitioned the Devs (see post 63). I'll keep you informed.......... ------------------
WTB Improved 'Guise' Cloaking Device II WTB [Officer's] Modified Cruise Missile Launcher WTB Lockbreaker Bombs WTB Scorch Bombs
Convo or Send EVE-mail to "Ryf" with offe |
IamBen
Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.06.27 20:52:00 -
[69]
This thread needs some dev love.
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Kwint Sommer
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Posted - 2007.06.29 00:44:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Ryf I finally got off my arse and petitioned the Devs (see post 63). I'll keep you informed..........
Great, what's the turn around on a petition like this?
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Ryf
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.06.29 15:35:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Kwint Sommer
Great, what's the turn around on a petition like this?
I don't know, but the following statements are from the petition submission page:
> Please do not file multiple petitions about the > same subject. This will only increase the petition > load and doing so repeatedly may result in actions > being taken against your account.
> Please do not file petitions to ask if your petition > will be answered soon. Unfortunately the waiting > time is very long at the moment but we assure you > that your petition is in the queue and will be > answered when the time comes.
FYI.... Below is the body of the petition I sent.
--------------------------------
Please refer to Thread ID# 520085, which contains a discussion on Tactical Shield Manipulation.
1) The thread contains several different theories on how this skill actually works. Can you please provide clarification as to how the skill works?
2) It appears that this skill does not work properly when trained to Level 5. If it is broken, are there plans to fix it? If it does work, what don't we understand about the skill?
3) The thread contains numerous suggestions (and rationalizations) for changing the skill. Are any changes to the skill being considered by CCP?
Thanks for your time!
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Ranar Estraad
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Posted - 2007.06.30 05:54:00 -
[72]
I remember reading a thread about this skill a few months ago and halting my training at level 4. I came back to see if it was fixed to continue my training and I'm rather glad I did. I won't offer new suggestions as what I think "would be cool if" or "should be done" etc etc since I don't know the game very well. I DO think that if this is indeed broken, and for being broken for so long we should at least get an idea of what the plans are.
I do feel bad for CCP though. Lot of bashing them in these boards: "Awesome game CCP! Now, **** OFF!" But then again I think that just comes with being a player on an MMO, since other boards for other games contain most of the same thing, lol.
Until this gets fixed I have PLENTY of other skills to keep me occupied so it's no big deal really.
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TimMc
The Caldari Confederation
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Posted - 2007.06.30 11:26:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Ranar Estraad I do feel bad for CCP though. Lot of bashing them in these boards: "Awesome game CCP! Now, **** OFF!" But then again I think that just comes with being a player on an MMO, since other boards for other games contain most of the same thing, lol.
Thats because players of MMOs are fanatics who play the game obcessively, then when away from it think of how it could be better. Personally I think Tactical Shield Manipulation should just fill the shield hole. Eg 5% bonus to EM shield resistance per level.
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Atius Tirawa
Minmatar Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.06.30 15:53:00 -
[74]
its stupid, and I would like to see some attention given to this subject.
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Adeena Torcfist
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Posted - 2007.07.04 17:36:00 -
[75]
i fail to see, why if they read these forums, something like a topic like this, doesnt have an answer. Even more so, if the title asks for a responce.
Something along the lines of " we aknoledge that the skill is broken, & we're looking into it " type of comment would suffice, & that would take, ooh, 1 minute of their time to write up.
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Redwolf
Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.04 20:16:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Redwolf on 04/07/2007 20:15:16 Bump.
Fix it!
Doesnt work at any level above level 1, only level 1 applies.
---- It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Boonaki
Caldari Knights of Chaos Chaos Incarnate.
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Posted - 2007.07.05 08:22:00 -
[77]
There was supposed to be shield/armor piercing ammo, it was never introduced cause it would effect armor tankers to much. But the armor tankers were supposed to get the same skill to reduce the effect of the special ammo. Fear the Ibis of doom!
113 |
IamBen
Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.07.05 13:44:00 -
[78]
Make the skill useful.
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Kwint Sommer
Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion
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Posted - 2007.07.05 15:44:00 -
[79]
Originally by: IamBen Make the skill useful.
Forget about useful, just make it not screw passive shield tankers...
I can't believe this thread has been around for months and still hasn't gotten a single word from a dev.
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Bleys Vontagen
Gallente Phoenix Logistics Industries
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Posted - 2007.07.05 16:42:00 -
[80]
Originally by: TOPSTER2
Originally by: Cookie Snatcher
Originally by: Sieges Interesting idea to add to the skill... as long as it wouldn't take away from its current ability.
what current abilities? It does NOTHING atm.
QFT!
It does seem like a useless skill. As long as you limit your thinking to "in the box" thinking. Well, I don't do that. Sometimes that costs me. Sometimes I look foolish. But sometimes I run into things, quite by accident, that is ignored by the "conventional" wisdom of in-the-box thinking.
It's a great skill when you DON'T USE ACTIVE HARDNERS. Train it up to Level 5 and fill out those Iteron V slots with T2 Shield Resistance Amplifiers. A SINGLE T2 SRA (EM) will boost you from ZERO to 47% (.375 *1.25). Barely worse than a T1 shield.
And, you don't need cap so you can use what little cap your industrial has to repair shields when you make that mad dash back to the gate. And, better yet, you don't need to hope you turned them on before the Jita Lag gets you.
So, yeah, the skill doesn't help the active resistance tankers. It's not really supposed to, hence it only working on inactive hardeners (including cap-drained/off active hardeners). And that you don't find a use for it, doesn't mean the skill doesn't have a use or needs to be changed.
My beef is that the skill is Level IV for a skill that's not what I'd consider a full-time, or active-hardener replacing skill. Especially in light that there are no "EANM II-equivalent passive hardeners. I think it should be Level III because you have to get to the highest levels before you really get any decent effectiveness with it and because of the EANM-equivalent lack.
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Ryf
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.07.05 16:42:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Ryf
Originally by: Kwint Sommer
Great, what's the turn around on a petition like this?
I don't know, but the following statements are from the petition submission page:
> Please do not file multiple petitions about the > same subject. This will only increase the petition > load and doing so repeatedly may result in actions > being taken against your account.
> Please do not file petitions to ask if your petition > will be answered soon. Unfortunately the waiting > time is very long at the moment but we assure you > that your petition is in the queue and will be > answered when the time comes.
FYI.... Below is the body of the petition I sent.
--------------------------------
Please refer to Thread ID# 520085, which contains a discussion on Tactical Shield Manipulation.
1) The thread contains several different theories on how this skill actually works. Can you please provide clarification as to how the skill works?
2) It appears that this skill does not work properly when trained to Level 5. If it is broken, are there plans to fix it? If it does work, what don't we understand about the skill?
3) The thread contains numerous suggestions (and rationalizations) for changing the skill. Are any changes to the skill being considered by CCP?
Thanks for your time!
Still no response to my petition. I'll let you know when there is.
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Kwint Sommer
Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion
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Posted - 2007.07.05 17:32:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Bleys Vontagen
As long as you limit your thinking to "in the box" thinking. Well, I don't do that. Sometimes that costs me. Sometimes I look foolish. But sometimes I run into things, quite by accident, that is ignored by the "conventional" wisdom of in-the-box thinking.
It's a great skill when you DON'T USE ACTIVE HARDNERS. Train it up to Level 5 and fill out those Iteron V slots with T2 Shield Resistance Amplifiers. A SINGLE T2 SRA (EM) will boost you from ZERO to 47% (.375 *1.25). Barely worse than a T1 shield.
And, you don't need cap so you can use what little cap your industrial has to repair shields when you make that mad dash back to the gate. And, better yet, you don't need to hope you turned them on before the Jita Lag gets you.
So, yeah, the skill doesn't help the active resistance tankers. It's not really supposed to, hence it only working on inactive hardeners (including cap-drained/off active hardeners).
What the f*** are you talking about? Honestly you're either posting in the wrong thread or outside of more than the proverbial box.
This thread is about the skill Tactical Shield Manipulation which "Reduces the chance of damage penetrating the shield when it falls below 25% by 5% per skill level, with 0% chance at level 5."
So with this skill trained your shields will drop faster -starting at 25%- than they would without it but your armor will take less damage. If you rely on passive regeneration of your shields (regardless of cap and type of hardener...) then having them drop quicker -starting at 25%- means that your recharge rate drops faster and a nasty, self-reinforcing cycle builds where lower HP means lower recharge rate which means more damage per second getting through which means even lower HP...
That cycle happens regardless of this skill but this skill makes it even worse. Even for an armor tanker this skill is not desirable as it lowers their shield regen rate -below 25% HP- and shields are just a free addition to their tank. The only place it is nice is for Shield tanking PVE using active shield boosters and even in this case it's only useful in that it prevents them from having to repair their armor.
The skill being broken refers to reports that at L5 it acts as though you've never trained the skill at all.
Of course, it is not 100% clear that this skill works as I described and it seems very odd that CCP would force virtually all shield tankers to train L4 and all shield tanking capital pilots L5 of a skill that is close to useless and liable to damages your tank. That's why we want a dev response to this.
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IamBen
Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.07.05 18:04:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Bleys Vontagen
Originally by: TOPSTER2
Originally by: Cookie Snatcher
Originally by: Sieges Interesting idea to add to the skill... as long as it wouldn't take away from its current ability.
what current abilities? It does NOTHING atm.
QFT!
It does seem like a useless skill. As long as you limit your thinking to "in the box" thinking. Well, I don't do that. Sometimes that costs me. Sometimes I look foolish. But sometimes I run into things, quite by accident, that is ignored by the "conventional" wisdom of in-the-box thinking.
It's a great skill when you DON'T USE ACTIVE HARDNERS. Train it up to Level 5 and fill out those Iteron V slots with T2 Shield Resistance Amplifiers. A SINGLE T2 SRA (EM) will boost you from ZERO to 47% (.375 *1.25). Barely worse than a T1 shield.
And, you don't need cap so you can use what little cap your industrial has to repair shields when you make that mad dash back to the gate. And, better yet, you don't need to hope you turned them on before the Jita Lag gets you.
So, yeah, the skill doesn't help the active resistance tankers. It's not really supposed to, hence it only working on inactive hardeners (including cap-drained/off active hardeners). And that you don't find a use for it, doesn't mean the skill doesn't have a use or needs to be changed.
My beef is that the skill is Level IV for a skill that's not what I'd consider a full-time, or active-hardener replacing skill. Especially in light that there are no "EANM II-equivalent passive hardeners. I think it should be Level III because you have to get to the highest levels before you really get any decent effectiveness with it and because of the EANM-equivalent lack.
What are you talking about? I think you are in the wrong thread.
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Naomi Wildfire
Amarr Stardust Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2007.07.05 23:49:00 -
[84]
They can even remove it from the Cap Booster to make it even with the Cap Repper.
Crap that i have to skill it past Level4
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Ulii
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Posted - 2007.07.06 10:08:00 -
[85]
leave it as it is, except that lvl5 thingy
the bonus it gives are great for active tankers.
I often let my shields down in the 10% area before boosting. and it would be great to be able to drop it lower still
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Adeena Torcfist
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Posted - 2007.07.07 17:16:00 -
[86]
it would also be nice, as an added bonus, to reduce the "sweet spot" for passive tankers. As it is now, i belive its 30%, reducing that all the way to lvl 5, take it down to 5% for the maximum recharge rate.
could just see it now, ppl tanking @ 5% shileds, & ppl giving up, as they cant get into their armour
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Ryf
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.07.10 14:08:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Ryf
Originally by: Kwint Sommer
Great, what's the turn around on a petition like this?
I don't know, but the following statements are from the petition submission page:
> Please do not file multiple petitions about the > same subject. This will only increase the petition > load and doing so repeatedly may result in actions > being taken against your account.
> Please do not file petitions to ask if your petition > will be answered soon. Unfortunately the waiting > time is very long at the moment but we assure you > that your petition is in the queue and will be > answered when the time comes.
FYI.... Below is the body of the petition I sent.
--------------------------------
Please refer to Thread ID# 520085, which contains a discussion on Tactical Shield Manipulation.
1) The thread contains several different theories on how this skill actually works. Can you please provide clarification as to how the skill works?
2) It appears that this skill does not work properly when trained to Level 5. If it is broken, are there plans to fix it? If it does work, what don't we understand about the skill?
3) The thread contains numerous suggestions (and rationalizations) for changing the skill. Are any changes to the skill being considered by CCP?
Thanks for your time!
Does anyone know (based on actual experience) what the turn-around time for getting a petition answered is?
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dodgy242
Corpus PCG The State
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Posted - 2007.07.10 14:47:00 -
[88]
A lot faster than this in any case.
The fact that you HAVE to train this to fly a carrier makes it even worse.
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DeathToKittens
Minmatar Eve's Brothers of Destiny
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Posted - 2007.07.10 15:17:00 -
[89]
I've waited as long as I could to train this skill. I'm to the point where I need T2 active hardeners. I guess I'll have to train it. ------------------------------- DTK |
Endorphin Lai
Caldari Hidden.
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Posted - 2007.07.10 15:51:00 -
[90]
Confirm that this skill is broken at L5.
I don't see this skill as being all that useless, seems to me to be the equivalent of gaining more armor hitpoints, or reducing the rate at which hitpoints are diminished... however you want to view it.
Would be great if it worked though - dev acknowledgement please? _________
<-- me |
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