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Terror DeBiaN Lucid Space Discoveries	Posted - 2007.08.02 19:13:00 - [1] What are the CONs to adding a 5th Turret hardpoint to the Eagle? Without the damage modifiers of the other HACs, it should not make it overpowered. But add the needed DPS to make it a worthwhile HAC to pilot. Terror --- CEO - Lucid Space Discoveries -LSD-
Balcura	Posted - 2007.08.04 18:11:00 - [2] hell the ship should have 6 turrets and enough grid to fit a full set of tech 2 200mm rails. The eagle is like the ferox which is like the Moa all weak gun platforms.
enymphia M. Corp	Posted - 2007.08.04 18:19:00 - [3] if u give the eagle a 5th slot u should give the vulture 7 turret slots. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Merin Ryskin FinFleet	Posted - 2007.08.04 20:06:00 - [4] Originally by: enymphia if u give the eagle a 5th slot u should give the vulture 7 turret slots. /signed, very strongly Moa and Eagle both need their 5th turrets, and the Ferox and Vulture need their 6th and 7th. The Moa/Eagle then need their 6th high moved to a mid, but that's a separate issue.
Djerin Obsidian Exploration Services	Posted - 2007.08.04 22:15:00 - [5] The Eagle is a worthwhile HAC to fly. Just dont use it against heavy targets and without a fleet or think outside of the box..
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.08.04 23:21:00 - [6] Originally by: Djerin The Eagle is a worthwhile HAC to fly. Just dont use it against heavy targets and without a fleet or think outside of the box.. ie,, its not as worthwhile flying it as the other hacs.
Djerin Obsidian Exploration Services	Posted - 2007.08.04 23:27:00 - [7] Well, i preferr another HAC too. But the HAC i preferr sucks when it comes to fleets. Yet i'm not asking for a range bonus. I just dont use this HAC in fleets...
Hannobaal Gallente Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.04 23:34:00 - [8] If you give it more guns, you should drop its optimal range bonus. You can't expect to have both range and damage, and most Caldari pilots who complain about how weak Caldari are don't care for the extra range anyway. ------------------
Hotshothotshot1 Atomic Heroes The OSS	Posted - 2007.08.04 23:39:00 - [9] yup, i wouldnt mind if they took away 1 range bonus for a 5th turret. so what if it can hit at 200km away. I will need to setup myself 200km away from the action or where the action will be. i rather have less range and more damage
Igualmentedos	Posted - 2007.08.04 23:45:00 - [10] Originally by: Hotshothotshot1 yup, i wouldnt mind if they took away 1 range bonus for a 5th turret. so what if it can hit at 200km away. I will need to setup myself 200km away from the action or where the action will be. i rather have less range and more damage they should just ignore range altogether, it's pretty much useless. Especially with warp to zero. Give caldari ROF bonuses not optimal bonuses.

Hannobaal Gallente Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.04 23:57:00 - [11] Although, if you feel that way about the one big strength the Caldari have, maybe you should be flying some other race's ships... ------------------
bldyannoyed Un4seen Development	Posted - 2007.08.05 00:10:00 - [12] Originally by: Igualmentedos Originally by: Hotshothotshot1 yup, i wouldnt mind if they took away 1 range bonus for a 5th turret. so what if it can hit at 200km away. I will need to setup myself 200km away from the action or where the action will be. i rather have less range and more damage they should just ignore range altogether, it's pretty much useless. Especially with warp to zero. Give caldari ROF bonuses not optimal bonuses. You do realise that RoF bonuses confer a greater DPS increase than straight damage bonuses right? Giving the Eagle a 5th turret, on top of the damage bonus it gets for HAC, coupled with the fact that any sensible Eagle ftting can comfortably accomodate 4 250 II rails, a full injected shield tank AND 3 MFS II, would simply mean it out DPS'ing ANY other HAC at ANY given range, assuming the other HAC's are fitting a some kind of tank, and not just a full gank fit. At present the ONLY weakness an Eagle has is its inability to tackle. That really is it. Its got range, damage ( with 3 MFS which theres no reason not to fit ) and due to its resist bonus the best tank of any HAC, except possibly the Sacrilege. Anyone who cant get on with it therefore either doesnt like the style of the ship, which is their problem, or is simply a ******, which is also their problem. It's no fault of the Eagle. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.08.05 00:11:00 - [13] The eagle doesnt need anymore DPS at long ranges, nor does the vulture. Adding more to either would be unwise. Especialy the vulture.
bldyannoyed Un4seen Development	Posted - 2007.08.05 00:59:00 - [14] TBH, both the Ferox and Vulture could really do with an extra turret. As it stands, the Ferox is a bit on the weedy side for a BC, and the Vulture has the same DPS as an Eagle with HAC 5. ( 4 turrets + 25% damage bonus vs 5 unbonused on the Vulture ). Compare that to an Eos, the ( potential ) new Damnation and a Claymore and again the Vulture comes up short. The Eagle really doesnt though. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.08.05 01:26:00 - [15] Edited by: Goumindong on 05/08/2007 01:26:59 Originally by: bldyannoyed TBH, both the Ferox and Vulture could really do with an extra turret. As it stands, the Ferox is a bit on the weedy side for a BC, and the Vulture has the same DPS as an Eagle with HAC 5. ( 4 turrets + 25% damage bonus vs 5 unbonused on the Vulture ). Compare that to an Eos, the ( potential ) new Damnation and a Claymore and again the Vulture comes up short. The Eagle really doesnt though. The vulture is the only command ship that has a real role in a fleet. It, and the Eagle, fill an imporant niche that is uncontested by any other ship in eve. They do not need more damage.
Pilk Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.08.05 01:41:00 - [16] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 05/08/2007 01:26:59 Originally by: bldyannoyed TBH, both the Ferox and Vulture could really do with an extra turret. As it stands, the Ferox is a bit on the weedy side for a BC, and the Vulture has the same DPS as an Eagle with HAC 5. ( 4 turrets + 25% damage bonus vs 5 unbonused on the Vulture ). Compare that to an Eos, the ( potential ) new Damnation and a Claymore and again the Vulture comes up short. The Eagle really doesnt though. The vulture is the only command ship that has a real role in a fleet. It, and the Eagle, fill an imporant niche that is uncontested by any other ship in eve. They do not need more damage. What role is that? Taking out MWD'ing ceptors who don't know how to move, or killing 'dictors that are likewise flying stupidly? Anything beyond that, and the damage just isn't there. --P Kosh: The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote.
bldyannoyed Un4seen Development	Posted - 2007.08.05 01:44:00 - [17] Edited by: bldyannoyed on 05/08/2007 01:45:06 Giving the Vulture a 6th turret slot without giving it an extra high means that any pilot has to trade a gun or a gang link. I believe the Eagle is fine. Moa, welllllll, not great, but a 5th turret aint th answer. Ferox, basically, isnt very good. A 6th turret would be a much needed boost. And it follows that if you give the Ferox 6 you give the Vulture 6, tho as i isaid, it wouldnt be able to fit 6 guns + 3 gang links. Given that most really serious Fleet Command pilots get the skills for mindlinks i'd imagine they would choose 3 gang mods over the extra 60 or so DPS and unbonused turret could add to a fight at 200km. Its a choice, like the Eos with its 7 turrets and 7 highs. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.08.05 02:05:00 - [18] Well if you want to snipe under 100km, just use a deimos, as all gallente ships it does the job better than the caldari one. If you want to snipe above 100km... well why should somebody want to? Deimos is a way better sniper than the Eagle, with the new buff to it (omg now CCP really lost their mind) it can even keep the target at the range AND deal over 50% more damage than the eagle.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.08.05 03:37:00 - [19] Originally by: Pilk Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 05/08/2007 01:26:59 Originally by: bldyannoyed TBH, both the Ferox and Vulture could really do with an extra turret. As it stands, the Ferox is a bit on the weedy side for a BC, and the Vulture has the same DPS as an Eagle with HAC 5. ( 4 turrets + 25% damage bonus vs 5 unbonused on the Vulture ). Compare that to an Eos, the ( potential ) new Damnation and a Claymore and again the Vulture comes up short. The Eagle really doesnt though. The vulture is the only command ship that has a real role in a fleet. It, and the Eagle, fill an imporant niche that is uncontested by any other ship in eve. They do not need more damage. What role is that? Taking out MWD'ing ceptors who don't know how to move, or killing 'dictors that are likewise flying stupidly? Anything beyond that, and the damage just isn't there. --P Long range anit-support. Does really well at it.
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.08.05 03:44:00 - [20] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Pilk Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 05/08/2007 01:26:59 Originally by: bldyannoyed TBH, both the Ferox and Vulture could really do with an extra turret. As it stands, the Ferox is a bit on the weedy side for a BC, and the Vulture has the same DPS as an Eagle with HAC 5. ( 4 turrets + 25% damage bonus vs 5 unbonused on the Vulture ). Compare that to an Eos, the ( potential ) new Damnation and a Claymore and again the Vulture comes up short. The Eagle really doesnt though. The vulture is the only command ship that has a real role in a fleet. It, and the Eagle, fill an imporant niche that is uncontested by any other ship in eve. They do not need more damage. What role is that? Taking out MWD'ing ceptors who don't know how to move, or killing 'dictors that are likewise flying stupidly? Anything beyond that, and the damage just isn't there. --P Long range anit-support. Does really well at it. And what do you need such an uberly long range for? If you are in a gang and you have a target 150km away, you just send a ceptor to it and warp upon him...

Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.08.05 03:47:00 - [21] Originally by: Benn Helmsman And what do you need such an uberly long range for? If you are in a gang and you have a target 150km away, you just send a ceptor to it and warp upon him... Your ceptor never made it, got killed by an eagle.
Merin Ryskin FinFleet	Posted - 2007.08.05 04:46:00 - [22] Originally by: bldyannoyed Giving the Eagle a 5th turret, on top of the damage bonus it gets for HAC, coupled with the fact that any sensible Eagle ftting can comfortably accomodate 4 250 II rails, a full injected shield tank AND 3 MFS II, would simply mean it out DPS'ing ANY other HAC at ANY given range, assuming the other HAC's are fitting a some kind of tank, and not just a full gank fit. 1) No it can't. The Eagle can fit 4x 250mm II rails, MWD and sniping gear, but just barely. Adding a cap injector, booster, and useful things in the extra high slots requires fitting mods... and that means you aren't fitting 3x MFS IIs. 2) A 3-slot tank (what you get after fitting MWD/injector) is not that impressive. The HAC resists are nice, but this is far from game-breaking. 3) The Eagle will NOT out-dps all other HACs, for the simple reason that rails have low base damage compared to other weapons. It will out-dps some HACs for the simple reason that it out-ranges them as well (since any damage is greater than zero), but it will not be some all-range solo pwnmobile. 4) Have you ever actually used 250mm rails? The tracking on them is awful, you won't be out-dps-ing much at close/medium range because you can't hit anything. Quote: Its got range, damage ( with 3 MFS which theres no reason not to fit ) Except for the need to fit a tank. The Eagle can only fit 3x MFS in full sniper setup, and that means no tank and no all-range pwnmobile. Quote: and due to its resist bonus the best tank of any HAC, except possibly the Sacrilege. Until you try to fit a MWD and cap injector to sustain your tank. Suddenly even without tackling, you're down to 3 slots to tank with, and your tank isn't really any better than other HACs.
Merin Ryskin FinFleet	Posted - 2007.08.05 04:50:00 - [23] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Benn Helmsman And what do you need such an uberly long range for? If you are in a gang and you have a target 150km away, you just send a ceptor to it and warp upon him... Your ceptor never made it, got killed by an eagle. Only if the pilot is an idiot. Tracking on a Vulture/Eagle isn't all that great, since you're using spike ammo at this uberly-long-range. If your inty pilot is halfway competent, he's coming in with high transversal and laughing at the Eagle. Of course this just proves my point from the other thread. In this situation, other ships are just as good at killing support. It doesn't matter all that much if the inty is nailed by an Eagle that opens fire at 150km, or insta-popped by a Munnin at 100km. Either way it's dead well short of the target. The Eagle is not the uncontested master of the role.
Hyuuga Veralis Pator Tech School	Posted - 2007.08.05 05:43:00 - [24] Originally by: enymphia if u give the eagle a 5th slot u should give the vulture 7 turret slots. The Vulture is a gang command platform, not a 'omglolfrigsanddrones' pwning platform. Vulture is fine with 5 hardpoints, NH should get +1 launcher slot. Honestly, all Field commands should have 5 weapon hardpoints, and the Fleet commands should have 7. Both types should have 8 highslots, meaning the extra 3(1) slots are for the gangmods.
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.08.05 05:54:00 - [25] Originally by: Hyuuga Veralis Originally by: enymphia if u give the eagle a 5th slot u should give the vulture 7 turret slots. The Vulture is a gang command platform, not a 'omglolfrigsanddrones' pwning platform. Vulture is fine with 5 hardpoints, NH should get +1 launcher slot. Honestly, all Field commands should have 5 weapon hardpoints, and the Fleet commands should have 7. Both types should have 8 highslots, meaning the extra 3(1) slots are for the gangmods. So we leave the "'omglolfrigsanddrones' pwning platform" to the non caldari CS?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.08.05 06:13:00 - [26] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Benn Helmsman And what do you need such an uberly long range for? If you are in a gang and you have a target 150km away, you just send a ceptor to it and warp upon him... Your ceptor never made it, got killed by an eagle. Only if the pilot is an idiot. Tracking on a Vulture/Eagle isn't all that great, since you're using spike ammo at this uberly-long-range. If your inty pilot is halfway competent, he's coming in with high transversal and laughing at the Eagle. Of course this just proves my point from the other thread. In this situation, other ships are just as good at killing support. It doesn't matter all that much if the inty is nailed by an Eagle that opens fire at 150km, or insta-popped by a Munnin at 100km. Either way it's dead well short of the target. The Eagle is not the uncontested master of the role. Tracking is good enough to hit a max skilled crow with 5000m/s transversal[I.E. much more trans than any interceptor will likly have if it wants to close] >80% of the time above 140k. Maybe you should expand your ammo selection.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.08.05 06:14:00 - [27] Originally by: Benn Helmsman Originally by: Hyuuga Veralis Originally by: enymphia if u give the eagle a 5th slot u should give the vulture 7 turret slots. The Vulture is a gang command platform, not a 'omglolfrigsanddrones' pwning platform. Vulture is fine with 5 hardpoints, NH should get +1 launcher slot. Honestly, all Field commands should have 5 weapon hardpoints, and the Fleet commands should have 7. Both types should have 8 highslots, meaning the extra 3(1) slots are for the gangmods. So we leave the "'omglolfrigsanddrones' pwning platform" to the non caldari CS? ?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.08.05 06:27:00 - [28] Edited by: Goumindong on 05/08/2007 06:28:40 It should be noted, that when firing the right ammo for the job, the Eagle has a 50%-80% "hidden damage bonus" due to ammo selection over its rivals. That is, at 100km, they will be shooting 10 or 12 dmg ammo. And the eagle will be shooting 18 damage ammo. This brings the Eagles damage up in these areas much more that would typically be expexcted. And in those ranges the eagle shouldnt be expected to outdamage the Zealot or Muninn. At 100km, with faction ammo and eagle will be doing 194 dps. A Zealot will be dealing 166 dps. A muninn will be doing 200 dps. faction ammo is typically considered better than t2 for anti-support due to tracking.[and if the Zealots and Muninns are fitting t2 ammo, they will have about 1/3 the tracking of the eagle] So it seems the Eagle really isnt outgunned in that area after all.
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.08.05 06:52:00 - [29] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 05/08/2007 06:28:40 It should be noted, that when firing the right ammo for the job, the Eagle has a 50%-80% "hidden damage bonus" due to ammo selection over its rivals. That is, at 100km, they will be shooting 10 or 12 dmg ammo. And the eagle will be shooting 18 damage ammo. This brings the Eagles damage up in these areas much more that would typically be expexcted. And in those ranges the eagle shouldnt be expected to outdamage the Zealot or Muninn. At 100km, with faction ammo and eagle will be doing 194 dps. A Zealot will be dealing 166 dps. A muninn will be doing 200 dps. faction ammo is typically considered better than t2 for anti-support due to tracking.[and if the Zealots and Muninns are fitting t2 ammo, they will have about 1/3 the tracking of the eagle] So it seems the Eagle really isnt outgunned in that area after all. Well if you shift the range down to 80 km and keep on to faction ammo due to tracking, the Munnin deals the same damage as the Eagle using Fed Carbonized Lead while the Eagle uses CN Thorium. Just adding missiles to the calculation can shift the calculation to the Eagle (but considering the very very long time until they hit, i wouldnt bet on them). If you use Tremor, the Eagle become clearly outdamaged.
Djerin Obsidian Exploration Services	Posted - 2007.08.05 07:28:00 - [30] Originally by: Benn Helmsman Well if you shift the range down to 80 km and keep on to faction ammo due to tracking, the Munnin deals the same damage as the Eagle using Fed Carbonized Lead while the Eagle uses CN Thorium. Just adding missiles to the calculation can shift the calculation to the Eagle (but considering the very very long time until they hit, i wouldnt bet on them). If you use Tremor, the Eagle become clearly outdamaged. The point is that the ceptor will be dead before it hits the 80km. That's what makes the Eagle worthwhile imho...



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