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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 11 post(s)
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:26:00 - [181] Originally by: Ki Tarra How about ways to not look like your laundering drug money as common sense. Don't know a lot of real life people who are wrongfully conficted of laundering drug money and the real life justice system is much less forgiving than the appeals process in place with CCP. I'm screwed, how do I avoid looking like I'm laundering drug money in real life? Still, knowing that the justice system doesn't bat 100%, why are you so adamant in assuming that CCP does? Is the investigations into ISK sellers more thorough? Are CCP investigators more competent then criminal investigators?
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:28:00 - [182] Edited by: Cpt Fina on 12/09/2007 18:28:27 Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: Cpt Fina Yes, I did Would it helped if I did a find/replace in my earlier post to change it to the definition found on the official merriam-websters website, as that is the definition that I was using the phase based on. Don't change much as every man is fit to make their own "sound and prudent judgment" of a given situation which would result in several different opinions of what common sense is. But, I am not going to try and guess whether or not you have suffience common sense to grasp that.
Jelek Coro Caldari Ordo Templi Orientis Daikoku Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:29:00 - [183] at the op. Also a big at the peeps taking his word... known isk sellers... Soo many people ask the wrong questions... how about where a certain player got the rattlesnake from... Was the certain player give the rattlesnake with the intent to sell it back... Just
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:32:00 - [184] Originally by: Grawshellar Originally by: Ki Tarra How about ways to not look like your laundering drug money as common sense. Don't know a lot of real life people who are wrongfully conficted of laundering drug money and the real life justice system is much less forgiving than the appeals process in place with CCP. I'm screwed, how do I avoid looking like I'm laundering drug money in real life? Still, knowing that the justice system doesn't bat 100%, why are you so adamant in assuming that CCP does? Is the investigations into ISK sellers more thorough? Are CCP investigators more competent then criminal investigators? CCP doesn't bat at 100%, but with 3 or 4 swings, not alot of innocents are going to get hurt. More of a problem is that too many of the guilty will get away. I am still having a hard time understanding where the paranoia about having your stuff taken by a GM comes from. I really don't understand you fear. Of course they can take it all away, but why would they, if there was any reasonable doubt that you were a victum and not a cheat. ************************** Ki Tech Industries - Bond Offer

CCP Prism X	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:33:00 - [185] These are not 'Ways to not get framed' but 'What to do if you do get framed' protocols. Of course we don't allow known ISK sellers to roam EVE. They're know. They're banned. Of course we're not going to trim our customer base by banning people we're not 100% certain did something bad. Of course we can't guarantee omniscience. Of course we're not going to ban you for selling Veldspar. Of course we're not going to ban you or remove any ISK from you if an ISK buyer buys stuff from you with bad ISK.. unless the transaction is in the direction of 1 Veldspar for half a billion. Of course we are going to ban you for selling 1 unit of Veldspar for half a billion ISK to a known ISK seller. Of course there are no magic numbers for when a transaction becomes suspect. You're implying that the numbers are the only thing that matters. We wouldn't need GMs then, I'd write a script which would eventually ban you all and I'd have to find a new job. We have GMs because of the human factor. We need their intuition. With this intuition comes the so called 'Human Nature' which is flawed which leads us to doing mistakes even when our intentions are angelic. That's the fact of the matter: We don't do mistakes intentionally. I can't promise, on the behalf of others, that they'll become perfect human beings just because mistakes are unacceptable to those who never make them. Instead CCP offers you senior GMs and Internal Affairs and Devs like me who are almost ready to answer the same questions ad infinitum. But now I grow tierd of soothing the hysteria. My offer to the OP stands but I will not respond here again. I'm only human aswell, flawed by nature, and can only take so much. ~ Prism X Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006.

Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:36:00 - [186] Originally by: Ki Tarra CCP doesn't bat at 100%, but with 3 or 4 swings, not alot of innocents are going to get hurt. More of a problem is that too many of the guilty will get away. I am still having a hard time understanding where the paranoia about having your stuff taken by a GM comes from. I really don't understand you fear. Of course they can take it all away, but why would they, if there was any reasonable doubt that you were a victum and not a cheat. I, personal, am protected by the best system known to man against this sort of issue. I am dirt poor, I don't have 2 ISK to rub together 99.9% of the time. However, you're adamant denial that CCP could ever make a mistake across the last what, 4 pages, led me to seek an admission that there is a possibility of an error. The reason people are afraid is simple: 1.) People have stuff they earned. 2.) People like to keep stuff they earned. 3.) Story pops up where supposedly someone had their rightfully earned stuff taken away. 4.) OMG sky is falling!11!! They might take my stuff too!
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:43:00 - [187] Originally by: CCP Prism X My offer to the OP stands but I will not respond here again. I'm only human aswell, flawed by nature, and can only take so much. Sorry Prism, server down so arguing silly points is an entertaining way to pass the time, not trying to make it personal against CCP, you guys have always seemed to handle situations with more care then most other companies.
Reece'Urchin Uno	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:49:00 - [188] Originally by: CCP Prism X Of course we are going to ban you for selling 1 unit of Veldspar for half a billion ISK to a known ISK seller. I've done similar things to this. It a great profession to abuse idiots who don't check the market transaction boxes. So if I continue using this way to make isk, and it just so happens an isk seller mucks up and buys my extremely overpriced item, I'm going to get banned?
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:52:00 - [189] Grawshellar I am glad that you are content. I can understand how the parania could spread if there was a solid claim, for GM misconduct. The problem I have is the number of vague accusations where the accusers disappear as soon as there is any offer to investigate. If Alois Hammer would come back and stand his ground, I would jump to the other side of the fence if his claims showed themselves to be valid. However, given the huge number of false and unsupported claims that I have seen, I remain sceptical until the full story is presented, as time and time again, an obvios mistake comes up on the side of the player. Be it using the insecure GTC trades, taking an offer than must be too good to be true, or not bothering to escalate through the proper channels, the mistake has in my experience always been on the part of the player. I don't always agree with the GM's decisions. There where many calls in the tourney that I didn't like, but I can understand them, but there they did not really have the time or opportunity for a full appeals process, and I expect that they have learnt from their mistakes. With RTM cases, there is plenty of time to handle multiple investigations and appeals. I doubt there are is significant risk of serious problems in that area. ************************** Ki Tech Industries - Bond Offer
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:59:00 - [190] Edited by: Grawshellar on 12/09/2007 18:59:09 Yeah, wouldn't even have said much, but watched IRL as a friend ate a ban in another game for no reason, with all appeals failing. Since then the assumption that there are never mistakes made on any game owners part doesn't sit too well with me.

Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 19:05:00 - [191] Originally by: CCP Prism X We don't do mistakes intentionally. I can't promise, on the behalf of others, that they'll become perfect human beings just because mistakes are unacceptable to those who never make them. Don't worry, with the blurry guidelines given you'd probably never have to admit comitting a mistake in this matter and GMs will have a very liberal definition of offenders to apply.
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 19:07:00 - [192] Edited by: Grawshellar on 12/09/2007 19:07:50 Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: CCP Prism X We don't do mistakes intentionally. I can't promise, on the behalf of others, that they'll become perfect human beings just because mistakes are unacceptable to those who never make them. Don't worry, with the blurry guidelines given you'd probably never have to admit comitting a mistake in this matter and GMs will have a very liberal definition of offenders to apply. Thats awesome, the way someone hangs their head and you keep kicking them in the ribs like that, can I get lessons
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 19:13:00 - [193] Originally by: Grawshellar Edited by: Grawshellar on 12/09/2007 19:07:50 Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: CCP Prism X We don't do mistakes intentionally. I can't promise, on the behalf of others, that they'll become perfect human beings just because mistakes are unacceptable to those who never make them. Don't worry, with the blurry guidelines given you'd probably never have to admit comitting a mistake in this matter and GMs will have a very liberal definition of offenders to apply. Thats awesome, the way someone hangs their head and you keep kicking them in the ribs like that, can I get lessons PrismX offered to help the OP, which is great. However, he didn't show any willingness to address this issue which he referred to as "hysteria". That really makes me feel that IÆm being taken seriously and with respect. Even though Prismx isn't going to read this thread anymore doesn't mean that the subjectis obsolete.
Epong Private Military Company	Posted - 2007.09.12 19:17:00 - [194] Originally by: CCP Prism X ...Of course we're not going to ban you for selling Veldspar... 1)Thx god... 2)Why not... - Bad girl +5 and Sarcasm +5
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 19:17:00 - [195] Originally by: Cpt Fina PrismX offered to help the OP, which is great. However, he didn't show any willingness to address this issue which he referred to as "hysteria". That really makes me feel that IÆm being taken seriously and with respect. Even though Prismx isn't going to read this thread anymore doesn't mean that the subjectis obsolete. He came right out and said that they have guidelines to differentiate between ISK sellers and scammers. He said there are checks in place to prevent wrongful banning to the best of their abilities. He also said he couldn't disclose much information so as to avoid giving the ISK sellers too much information. I don't know what else he could do, at this point you either take it on faith that they care enough to be careful to avoid wrongful banning, or you don't. It's pretty much that simple.
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 19:18:00 - [196] Originally by: Epong Originally by: CCP Prism X ...Of course we're not going to ban you for selling Veldspar... 1)Thx god... Isn't that Chribba's line?
Fitz VonHeise The New Order. United Connection's	Posted - 2007.09.12 19:25:00 - [197] Originally by: CCP Prism X Of course we're not going to ban you or remove any ISK from you if an ISK buyer buys stuff from you with bad ISK.. unless the transaction is in the direction of 1 Veldspar for half a billion. This can be dangerous to anyone that sells anything then. Here is why: I sell a lot of stuff. And there are many people that are always trying to rip people off by making them think they are buying the product they want for 360000 when it is really 36000000. If you don't look close and you click and you actually have the 36m then the sale goes through. So you made an honest mistake but now CCP can come look at what happened and think you are an isk launderer. So they would hit you for another 36m. Now let's take another look at this same scenario with a twist. I sell an item for 360000 but I notice that someone is selling the same thing for 36000000. Now I have had this happen to me twice. For some strange reason (bug) the person selects my item to buy but instead they end up paying the 36000000 amount! Seriously. It has happened to me twice since I've started a year ago. It was a wonderful surprise. But now I could be looked at as an isk launderer for a bug that was caused by CCP!
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 19:33:00 - [198] Originally by: Fitz VonHeise I sell an item for 360000 but I notice that someone is selling the same thing for 36000000. Now I have had this happen to me twice. For some strange reason (bug) the person selects my item to buy but instead they end up paying the 36000000 amount! Seriously. It has happened to me twice since I've started a year ago. It was a wonderful surprise. But now I could be looked at as an isk launderer for a bug that was caused by CCP! .. But you haven't been, maybe because they look for stuff like this and know that the market does funny things? :P
Fitz VonHeise The New Order. United Connection's	Posted - 2007.09.12 19:37:00 - [199] Originally by: Grawshellar .. But you haven't been, maybe because they look for stuff like this and know that the market does funny things? :P Probably... and I guess they would have to see a large number of strange trasactions like that before they would conclude a person was an isk launderer. (At least one would hope they did)
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 19:37:00 - [200] Originally by: Grawshellar Originally by: Cpt Fina PrismX offered to help the OP, which is great. However, he didn't show any willingness to address this issue which he referred to as "hysteria". That really makes me feel that IÆm being taken seriously and with respect. Even though Prismx isn't going to read this thread anymore doesn't mean that the subjectis obsolete. He came right out and said that they have guidelines to differentiate between ISK sellers and scammers. The frame of rules is still very wide and many players will probably fit into the description. Players have little to no control of whether they are selling to isksellers or not. Quote: He also said he couldn't disclose much information so as to avoid giving the ISK sellers too much information. CCP won't give us the information needed to avoid getting banned so that they can catch isk-sellers... The cause is good. I just don't approve of the method. Quote: I don't know what else he could do, at this point you either take it on faith that they care enough to be careful to avoid wrongful banning, or you don't. It's pretty much that simple. Yeah I agree it's pretty much that simple. If you get banned you'll just have to trust that CCP have gathered enough evidence, which you're not aware of, to come to the conclusion that you are an iskbuyer, which you may not be in control of.

Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 19:37:00 - [201] Originally by: Fitz VonHeise Originally by: Grawshellar .. But you haven't been, maybe because they look for stuff like this and know that the market does funny things? :P Probably... and I guess they would have to see a large number of strange trasactions like that before they would conclude a person was an isk launderer. (At least one would hope they did) Well, you already know it takes more then 2 :P
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 19:42:00 - [202] Originally by: Cpt Fina Yeah I agree it's pretty much that simple. If you get banned you'll just have to trust that CCP have gathered enough evidence, which you're not aware of, to come to the conclusion that you are an iskbuyer, which you may not be in control of. I don't really know where to go from there. At this point if you're concerned with getting a ban in this manner, you have to be one of those people who are constantly afraid of getting struck by lightning. You know the basics of what to avoid, but you have no way to SPECIFICALLY know where to stand to assure you don't get fried. If you want to walk in the rain, you gotta risk it.
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 20:12:00 - [203] Originally by: Grawshellar Originally by: Cpt Fina Yeah I agree it's pretty much that simple. If you get banned you'll just have to trust that CCP have gathered enough evidence, which you're not aware of, to come to the conclusion that you are an iskbuyer, which you may not be in control of. I don't really know where to go from there. At this point if you're concerned with getting a ban in this manner, you have to be one of those people who are constantly afraid of getting struck by lightning. You know the basics of what to avoid, but you have no way to SPECIFICALLY know where to stand to assure you don't get fried. If you want to walk in the rain, you gotta risk it. No, I'm one of those people who recognizes (what he think is) injustice and fights it even though it haven't had an impact on him yet. Much like males that are active in the women-rights movement. "SPECIFICALLY"? The guidelines provided are very vague. Vague guidelines will give GMs great freedom when accusing someone of buying isk and will restrict players who want to confront the accusations. CCP is banning players for the greater good for the community but will not provide clear rules for the community of how not to get banned.
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 20:20:00 - [204] Originally by: Cpt Fina No, I'm one of those people who recognizes (what he think is) injustice and fights it even though it haven't had an impact on him yet. Much like males that are active in the women-rights movement. "SPECIFICALLY"? The guidelines provided are very vague. Vague guidelines will give GMs great freedom when accusing someone of buying isk and will restrict players who want to confront the accusations. CCP is banning players for the greater good for the community but will not provide clear rules for the community of how not to get banned. There are a lot of causes to champion in this world, this is the one you pick? Although I hate to fall back to an argument that I previously fought against, we've yet to see anyone yet come forward with a claim of being unfairly treated who followed the basic rules we do know. Even the OP who started this trainwreck of a thread decided that once the thread passed the "rabble rabble" point and help was offered he'd bow out and keep quiet :P
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 20:33:00 - [205] Originally by: Grawshellar There are a lot of causes to champion in this world, this is the one you pick? I pick whichever cause to fight, that I want. Are my arguments any less valid because you don't understand why I care? Originally by: Grawshellar Although I hate to fall back to an argument that I previously fought against, we've yet to see anyone yet come forward with a claim of being unfairly treated who followed the basic rules we do know. Even the OP who started this trainwreck of a thread decided that once the thread passed the "rabble rabble" point and help was offered he'd bow out and keep quiet :P Again: The problem isn't that innocent people are getting punished. The problem is that it's too hard to avoid fulfilling CCP's criteria of being a guilty person. If I would make a real world comparison: Would you feel ok if your country implements a law that states that ethnic minorities risk two times the jailtime for the same crime, as the rest of the population. But there'd be no record of the law being implemented yet. Would you understand that people would get upset even though noone has suffered the consequences of the law? And no I'm not comparing the thread topic to the real world comparison. I'm simply trying to show you why some people might care about this.
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 20:41:00 - [206] Originally by: Cpt Fina Again: The problem isn't that innocent people are getting punished. The problem is that it's too hard to avoid fulfilling CCP's criteria of being a guilty person. Heh, how do you know how hard it is to avoid fulfilling their criteria, GIVEN THAT YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS :P Simple answer, is you can't. You need to argue that not knowing their criteria causes undue strain on you or some ****e like that, to really have a point here. Fact is, we've yet to hear from the "wrongfully accused". We've heard from 2 people, one who has so far refused help in the matter, and another who was likely selling GTCs in an insecure manner.
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 20:50:00 - [207] Originally by: Grawshellar Originally by: Cpt Fina Again: The problem isn't that innocent people are getting punished. The problem is that it's too hard to avoid fulfilling CCP's criteria of being a guilty person. Heh, how do you know how hard it is to avoid fulfilling their criteria, GIVEN THAT YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS :P Simple answer, is you can't. Thanks for proving my point. Quote: You need to argue that not knowing their criteria causes undue strain on you or some **e like that, to really have a point here. I've posted what consequences it may have earlier, please read it again. Quote:** Fact is, we've yet to hear from the "wrongfully accused". We've heard from 2 people, one who has so far refused help in the matter, and another who was likely selling GTCs in an insecure manner. I've posted why this matter should be discussed anyway earlier, please read it again.
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 20:54:00 - [208] YOU: The problem is that it's too hard to avoid fulfilling CCP's criteria of being a guilty person. ME: This can't be the problem. You couldn't possibly know if this was a problem. It might be HORRIBLY EASY to avoid fulfilling their criteria. YOU: My point exactly????? Please explain
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.09.12 20:59:00 - [209] Originally by: Grawshellar Originally by: Fitz VonHeise I sell an item for 360000 but I notice that someone is selling the same thing for 36000000. Now I have had this happen to me twice. For some strange reason (bug) the person selects my item to buy but instead they end up paying the 36000000 amount! Seriously. It has happened to me twice since I've started a year ago. It was a wonderful surprise. But now I could be looked at as an isk launderer for a bug that was caused by CCP! .. But you haven't been, maybe because they look for stuff like this and know that the market does funny things? :P Heres a clever little trick btw: have both the highest and lowest sell orders in a station. When someone accidentally buys the highest priced item, you get the isk. I had a friend lose a character due to pulling this little trick. Of course, the GMs never believe you on matters such as these, you're a filthy isk seller, right? Ki Tarra - elaborating on any of these types of cases is a violation of the EULA and will result in forum warnings and/or in game bans. Stop baiting already, all you're trying to do is get people banned, and honestly I can't believe that you haven't been warned already. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 21:07:00 - [210] Originally by: Grawshellar YOU: The problem is that it's too hard to avoid fulfilling CCP's criteria of being a guilty person. ME: This can't be the problem. You couldn't possibly know if this was a problem. It might be HORRIBLY EASY to avoid fulfilling their criteria. YOU: My point exactly????? Please explain Nice misquote. Guidelines have been given; common sense and dont buy from isksellers. I'm it is to hard to effectively avoid these criterias as one of them require you to be able to spot isk-sellers and the other which meaning are up to each individual to determine (common sense). You then stated that "Heh, how do you know how hard it is to avoid fulfilling their criteria, GIVEN THAT YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS". I can not know if my definition of common sense in a given situation is the same as CCP's. That's why i agreed with you.



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