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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 11 post(s)
Omega Sinner	Posted - 2007.09.11 06:58:00 - [1] Added subject line. -Rauth Kivaro([email protected]) Edited by: Omega Sinner on 11/09/2007 07:03:59 Do you condone your gm's making players lose there hard earned ships and isk by riping them off.. for example player sells rattlesnake on open contract other player buys it gm comes along says it was sold to a known isk seller and takes the isk he just got for the ship,,the ship itself and then take another bill off him aswell and that = lost player and soon many more to come if this type of thing is aloud to keep up. Something must be done about this abuse of power by gm's ingame.its not the first time I've heard of this happening. Don't bother telling me this is the first time you've heard this cause i know it is not. What are you going to do about this me as a customer of your fine product would really like to know..
Captian Internet Lead Bricks	Posted - 2007.09.11 07:00:00 - [2] Can I have your wall of text? seems thats all you've got left Local Thread 107-b,War ,Navigation Shortcuts
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar Sicarri Covenant	Posted - 2007.09.11 07:01:00 - [3] Must be the hair Originally by: Liz Kali Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking Originally by: TheDagda click For the love of the jovians stops necroing
Sarah McTeef	Posted - 2007.09.11 07:05:00 - [4] Originally by: Omega Sinner Edited by: Omega Sinner on 11/09/2007 07:03:59 Do you condone your gm's making players lose there hard earned ships and isk by riping them off.. Yes. That is all.
Omega Sinner	Posted - 2007.09.11 07:05:00 - [5] Lol should have proofed it.. its not the hair its the residue from the hair spray :P
Svavz Gallente Sybrite Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.11 07:22:00 - [6] Same thing happened to my CEO, GMs removed 4 billion from his wallet (Leaving him -2Billion when he previously had +2Billion)... He is baffled as to why they did it, GMs refuse to give him a straight answer.
Omega Man The Geddy Foundation	Posted - 2007.09.11 07:22:00 - [7] well bad luck. Now join the fight against isk sellers and isk buyers and it will not happen anymore. - Happy user of CAOD troll cleaner http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=584345
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.09.11 07:26:00 - [8] So CCP has a brand new policy: You have market sell orders or contract up. Someone buys stuff from you or gets your contract. Then few hours later GM rips off your ISK leaving you WITHOUT your recently sold STUFF and ISK while saying that buyer was KNOWN ISK BUYER/SELLER. Oh the joy. I won't be putting up and sell orders anymore because you will get buthfuksored by nice CCP GM's. I was sworn absolute love by Pepperami
Omega Sinner	Posted - 2007.09.11 07:27:00 - [9] I am against isk sellers and items sellers..But to have a gm tell you that your selling your stuff to a known isk seller on an open contract when you have no idea who is buying your stuff. Is completly worse then isk sellers by far.
Svavz Gallente Sybrite Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.11 07:28:00 - [10] Originally by: Kuolematon So CCP has a brand new policy: You have market sell orders or contract up. Someone buys stuff from you or gets your contract. Then few hours later GM rips off your ISK leaving you WITHOUT your recently sold STUFF and ISK while saying that buyer was KNOWN ISK BUYER/SELLER. Oh the joy. I won't be putting up and sell orders anymore because you will get buthfuksored by nice CCP GM's. This thread (because Its not the first time I've heard this happening) is certainly make me reconsider selling things...

Fenren	Posted - 2007.09.11 07:29:00 - [11] Edited by: Fenren on 11/09/2007 07:30:57 another redheaded that "know someone" that got hit by this.... put on your tin foil hats, i can smell a ccp conspiracy against redheads!! on a more serious note, they should NOT punish the seller, if it is done through the market or an open contract
QuantumX Minmatar Sicarri Covenant	Posted - 2007.09.11 07:31:00 - [12] If this is true, it is VERY wrong, using open contracts a person does not have a choice who buys the item.. Now the only time this should happen is two reason, one the contract was private, then may its a ISK sale transfer, or if the item is worth say 5 million ISK and sold on open contract for 2 billion ISK. But otherwise its wrong and the GM should not do it. ========================== I came i saw i got blown up!
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.09.11 07:31:00 - [13] Originally by: Svavz Same thing happened to my CEO, GMs removed 4 billion from his wallet (Leaving him -2Billion when he previously had +2Billion)... He is baffled as to why they did it, GMs refuse to give him a straight answer. If you think you got treated unfair by a GM you can always escalate the petition. I am quite happy that CCP is doing something against the isk buyers as well and not only something against isk sellers. Those *** isk-buyers are those who destroy Eve and everyone that got caught deserves to be punished really hard! Maybe CCP should also remove some SP from them as additional punishment - I think you will get quite upset if you lose 15% of your SP every time you got caught buying isk. And hopefully this will stop lots of people from buying isk further. Of course it must only hit isk buyers and not the innocent player.
Hermosa Diosas	Posted - 2007.09.11 07:34:00 - [14] Originally by: Kuolematon ISK while saying that buyer was KNOWN ISK BUYER/SELLER. Hmmm interesting if they are KNOWN then why are they still on the system? Surely removing them as CCP should have would prevent this probelm. The plot thickens
Omega Sinner	Posted - 2007.09.11 07:35:00 - [15] Exactly my point...
Svavz Gallente Sybrite Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.11 07:36:00 - [16] Originally by: Hermosa Diosas Originally by: Kuolematon ISK while saying that buyer was KNOWN ISK BUYER/SELLER. Hmmm interesting if they are KNOWN then why are they still on the system? Surely removing them as CCP should have would prevent this probelm. The plot thickens Serious hamster business!
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.09.11 07:36:00 - [17] Edited by: Shevar on 11/09/2007 07:36:16 http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=583125 Appearantly CCP claims it doesn't remove the ISK COUGH: Originally by: CCP Prism x Generic Noob buys 1 Trillion ISK. Example 1: Because Generic Noob has no idea about the real value of ISK he buys one of your BSs for half a trillion ISK. You get half a trillion ISK. GMs are alerted to Generic Noobs bad habits. One trillion ISK are removed from Generic Noobs wallet. Net result: You sold one BS and gained half a trillion ISK. Generic Noob now has a wallet balance of -half a trillion ISK and needs to work up his half a trillion ISK before he can do anything as there is almost always some fee involved in EvE. He also has a BS which he bought on credit. Example 2: You sell 5 years worth of GTC to generic noob for a trillion ISK (because he's got no clue). Generic Noob commits to 5 years of playing EvE. GMs remove 1 trillion ISK from his wallet. Generic Noob spends 1 year of those five getting back up to 0 balance. Now I've never been a GM so I dont know the full details. But in general this is how ISK buyers are dealth with. The sellers are of course banned as well but we all know that's rather futile. The real problem isn't the supply of ISK but the demand for buying virtual currency with hard cash.. AKA sloth mixed with ignorance. ~ Prism X Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006. Originally by: GM Nova That is not entirely accurate because the random noob will never hold on to the ISK. The owner will try to get the trillion to his main character and that is the character which will suffer. Also, how plausible is it that anyone would sell a battleship for half a trillion? Anyways your best bet is to petition and explain your case... But really I don't understand CCP in this, I fully agree with punishing ISK buyers but I DON'T want to be in a position where I sell something expensive to another player (high end shield boosters, faction BS's etc.) and then CCP reversing the transaction without reversing the actual goods sold. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Omega Sinner	Posted - 2007.09.11 07:42:00 - [18] Edited by: Omega Sinner on 11/09/2007 07:44:19 Thats just it petitions have been sent out..yet ccp hasn't done anything about them and has lost several good longer term players because of this blatent abuse of gm's..
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.09.11 07:48:00 - [19] Originally by: Omega Sinner Thats just it petitions have been sent out..yet ccp hasn't done anything about them and has lost several players because of this blatent abuse of gm's.. It isn't blatant abuse of GM power, abuse would indicate GM's would do it to futher their own goals, they aren't doing that but instead they are just following work procedures. That being said their work procedure for removing "dirty" ISK is just plain wrong. You CANNOT and SHOULD NOT remove isk after it entered the market, sure if someone uses it to buy 1 trit for 1 billion then sure then it's being laundered... But selling of expensive items should not resolve in the seller (who appearantly sold the item to an ISK buyer (which in 99% of the cases he can't know since those accounts aren't flagged with ISK buyer or whatever) ) loosing an item worth billions and have the billions removed from his wallet. It's just totally ******** and would love to see a proper responce to this issue (the responce I got in my thread wasn't all that stellar....). --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Omega Sinner	Posted - 2007.09.11 07:54:00 - [20] your right its not really abuse but it is wrong..removing the 1.1 bill plus the item then fining him another 1 bill for something he had no control over.Such as who buys the item when its open and not private.

Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.09.11 07:55:00 - [21] Although I've steered clear of most ISK-selling discussion, there's one thing I don't understand. Player A owns an item, say a Rattlesnake,,, it's worth 1 bil isk. So,, player A has a net worth of 1 bil. Isk Seller A purchases said rattlesnake. Player A now has 1 bil isk. Player A has a net worth of 1 bil. There's no reasonable explanation to remove the isk from this as even if it was some dastardly plot to recieve credits from an isk seller, as far as I can tell, the Player has gained nothing. It's bizzare and makes no sense,,, hope CCP gives a little lovetap to whichever GM think's they're "Smashing ISK-seller transfers",, Improve Market Competition!
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.11 08:09:00 - [22] Originally by: Hermosa Diosas Originally by: Kuolematon ISK while saying that buyer was KNOWN ISK BUYER/SELLER. Hmmm interesting if they are KNOWN then why are they still on the system? Surely removing them as CCP should have would prevent this probelm. The plot thickens The key point is "seller". Beside getting the seller they want to punish enough isk buyer that the others isk buyers would stop doing that. so as in most police operatiosn they are waithing and keeping the seller under scrutiny to get all is net of support characters and buyers. If the OP friend has sold some item to a know isk seller for a greatly inflated price it is almost granted that he is buying isk, and it is right he get hit by a penality, losing the isk x2 (if I have got it right how he was hit) and the item sold. If he has sold the item for a reasonable price (market price plus a limited extra) the standar procedure (from what I get) is to first take away the isk, then complete the investigation and eventually return them. If he has got 5 billions for 1 torpedo (as it happened) he should have tought something was amiss and petitioned it to avoid problems (as did the player that got 5 billions for a torpedo). If that happened he he did not report it hoping to keep the isk he accepted the risk of getting hit as a isk buyer and he lost the bet.
Drechana Endisil	Posted - 2007.09.11 08:11:00 - [23] Edited by: Drechana Endisil on 11/09/2007 08:14:15 Edited by: Drechana Endisil on 11/09/2007 08:13:42 Im not sure i follow what is going on here....u say u sell something but a GM says it was sold to a known isk buyer so he takes the mod and the money? i can understand them taking it if u bought isk from him but what right have they got to take the money and the mod if u sell something and he is an isk buyer, how the hell are you to know he was an isk buyer....does the phrase 1984 ring a bell to any of you? This game is getting worse and worse....and you know what...with all these GM's taking isk from people because they accuse them of getting it from an isk seller, it makes me think THEY, the GM's are the fecking isk sellers. I mean look at it, they got an infinite supply of ISK cause they can take it from whoever they want and just use the excuse of, 'oh it was from/to an isk seller. Feckin game gets worse and worse everyday Oh and if he is KNOWN why isnt he banned? DOesnt that just scream at you that that particualar GM just fancied more money in his wallet?
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.09.11 08:27:00 - [24] Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 11/09/2007 08:27:39 Quote: Oh and if he is KNOWN why isnt he banned? DOesnt that just scream at you that that particualar GM just fancied more money in his wallet? He probably did get banned. And it doesn't scream "GM wanted more money" because the OP hasn't debunked my reason for thinking why a GM could legitimately remove the isk because it was an ISK purchase from a seller. And the OP probably won't, but yeah, I don't want to reveal it because it'd be a step-by-step guide to doing something which would breach the EULA. The only way a GM could tell this is with some pretty close monitoring (which, I don't even know whether they could actually do or not, though there's no reason why they couldn't). We all know ISK sellers are the root cause of the problem, but ISK buyers promote the need for isk sellers to pass their goods, and so CCP aren't abashed in punishing those who purchase it too. For the record, I'm not saying that the OP bought ISK, he just hasn't completely debunked that possibility. Improve Market Competition!
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.09.11 08:36:00 - [25] Originally by: Omega Sinner for example player sells rattlesnake on open contract other player buys it gm comes along says it was sold to a known isk seller and takes the isk he just got for the ship,,the ship itself and then take another bill off him Originally by: Omega Sinner removing the 1.1 bill plus the item then fining him another 1 bill for something he had no control over. He bought 2Bil before, and bought a Rattlesnake with it, didn't he? It's what it reeks of. Anyway, you can always escalate to a higher GM.
Omega Sinner	Posted - 2007.09.11 08:39:00 - [26] What are they going to do if say a long term player and friend of players makes the decision to leave EvE cause of rl is taking to much of there time. transfers his stuff and isk to a friend just cause he doesn't want to see all of what he's collected go to waste. This problem brings up many questions. Also many fears that items and isk can be taken for reasons that aren't truly just and hold no foundation without properly looking at the situation.
Drechana Endisil	Posted - 2007.09.11 08:39:00 - [27] Edited by: Drechana Endisil on 11/09/2007 08:39:46 Quote: and really whats say that gm didn't just transfer it all to his main or another toon. Quote: And whats to say he did transfer it all to his toon? Such claims without any proof beyond "GM such and such did this in the past" is just trying to stir the pot and cause trouble. And wheres the damn proof that this transaction was dodgy and warrented taking this guys money?! damn the apathy of some of the people in this game really gets on my ****...yeah i will just lay down while u shaft me and it will all be cool man. ffs
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.09.11 08:39:00 - [28] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 11/09/2007 08:27:39 Quote: Oh and if he is KNOWN why isnt he banned? DOesnt that just scream at you that that particualar GM just fancied more money in his wallet? He probably did get banned. And it doesn't scream "GM wanted more money" because the OP hasn't debunked my reason for thinking why a GM could legitimately remove the isk because it was an ISK purchase from a seller. And the OP probably won't, but yeah, I don't want to reveal it because it'd be a step-by-step guide to doing something which would breach the EULA. The only way a GM could tell this is with some pretty close monitoring (which, I don't even know whether they could actually do or not, though there's no reason why they couldn't). We all know ISK sellers are the root cause of the problem, but ISK buyers promote the need for isk sellers to pass their goods, and so CCP aren't abashed in punishing those who purchase it too. For the record, I'm not saying that the OP bought ISK, he just hasn't completely debunked that possibility. There have been far to many reports regarding people selling an expensive item like faction battleships or highend officer modules having their isk from the sale removed and not having their item returned. So the problem is ISK buyer buys an item from the market, guy selling the item thinks yay nice sale few days/weeks later poof money gone and expensive/rare module gone. Yes I agree isk buyers need to be battled but putting people who sell high end loot in such a position is just plain ******. How do GM's value a faction battleship? How do GM's value high end loot? It isn't easy tracking the normal market price and even harder to understand the circumstances of the sale, eg if sold in Jita some items will be cheaper while others will be more expensive. My opinion start banning the isk sellers, yes the buyers are a problem but unless you are certain they actually bought isk you really shouldn't remove billions from their account (eg. a faction BS or really rare module selling at 20% above average market price isn't laundering money per definition it's just a really good sale to some impatient ***). And yes buying a few trit for billions is a clear sign (or anything above 500% above market price assuming the module isn't in rare supply), having a large sum transfered to your account is a clear sign as well. But in a lot of cases the problem is someone selling a rare/expensive module and then having the isk removed from his account from the sale without refunding the sold item. Also I definatly don't believe in the whole guilty till proven innocent thing, specially if you are not in a position to provide proof (you don't have access to the database). --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Omega Sinner	Posted - 2007.09.11 08:48:00 - [29] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 11/09/2007 08:37:04 He bought 2Bil before, and bought a Rattlesnake with it, didn't he? It's what it reeks of. Anyway, you can always escalate to a higher GM. No he hates sellers as much as I do..If your not making isk ingame then reavalute your game stradegy..that my oppinion..Plus he had the rattlesnake longer than I've known him ingame and its not about him buying it. its about who he apperantly sold it to on an open contract.
Krulla Minmatar True Centii	Posted - 2007.09.11 09:04:00 - [30] Originally by: Kuolematon So CCP has a brand new policy: You have market sell orders or contract up. Someone buys stuff from you or gets your contract. Then few hours later GM rips off your ISK leaving you WITHOUT your recently sold STUFF and ISK while saying that buyer was KNOWN ISK BUYER/SELLER. Oh the joy. I won't be putting up and sell orders anymore because you will get buthfuksored by nice CCP GM's. I'm pretty sure that's not how they operate because that's goddamn ******. And CCP are not goddamn ******. More likely that they take any money that was received from a ISK Seller for no reason at all, or something.

Zenst Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.09.11 09:10:00 - [31] Originally by: Omega Sinner Added subject line. -Rauth Kivaro([email protected]) Edited by: Omega Sinner on 11/09/2007 07:03:59 Do you condone your gm's making players lose there hard earned ships and isk by riping them off.. for example player sells rattlesnake on open contract other player buys it gm comes along says it was sold to a known isk seller and takes the isk he just got for the ship,,the ship itself and then take another bill off him aswell and that = lost player and soon many more to come if this type of thing is aloud to keep up. Something must be done about this abuse of power by gm's ingame.its not the first time I've heard of this happening. Don't bother telling me this is the first time you've heard this cause i know it is not. What are you going to do about this me as a customer of your fine product would really like to know.. I'd suggest a petiton in RP style given you paid a tax charge to put up the contract then some form of reposibility should be acknowledged. Way it sounds you should of got your ship back and cost of initial contract back, clear as. the fact it was brought with illegal isk is something you have NO CONTROL over and its is totaly CCP's domain and resposibility. As you are offered NO form of verifying if isk is legal nor should you have to in any way ingame with regards to ingame items EVER ever have to worry about that. This the way you explained it sounds very very wrong, but i'm sure CCP had no intentions of legal honest players being impacted in such a way. All that said now you have raised this issue and if thats all the facts, some form of response and indeed feedback from yourself upon the outcome would now be needed for credability factors alone. Personaly I feel this has been a oversight and I hope to hear a happy ending about this matter soon as well as reasurance's or a explanation/clarification by CCP that if I put up a ingame item up for sale ingame for ingame isk that I'm protected from such matters given I'm following there EULA and if not what tools are offered to players to protect themselves from such matters.
Omega Sinner	Posted - 2007.09.11 09:21:00 - [32] It is bad what happened to this player..Not only was the isk that the item was bout with removed and the item not giving back being the rattlesnake faction bs.. But the player was then fined 1 bill isk for selling the item in the first place on open contract to a player he had no idea was buying it and was apperantly an known isk seller.. If the said toon who baught this faction bs is a known isk seller then why hasn't his account been banned before this incident ever took place.. If it was banned before hand there would be no problem and player would not be leaving for lose of items and isk because of inproperly trained GM's..
Kel Dario Amarr M. Corp M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.09.11 09:29:00 - [33] Two years ago I got a two weeks ban for a character scamm. I didn't know why so I mailed a gm. He couldn't give me a proper answer except repeating what I already saw on my login screen, so I had to escalate it to a senior gm. Senior gm asked me where my 1 billion isk come from and what my connections was with a scammer whose name I have now forgotten. I wrote a lengthy explanation about where my isk come from, how I worked hard to it from missions and buying faction stuff and resell it in the hubs, culminating in me getting a bhaalgorne bpc for sixhundred mil from a friend living in Querious and that I later sold it on escrow for 1,1 bil. 2 days after I sold it I got banned. Turned out the scammer who bought it did so with isk he fooled from people on the trade forum. The only connection between us two was the isk and that was enough to label me "GUILTY". I think they thought I had illegally acquired the isk and not checked what I had sold. In the end I got unbanned and free gaming time and my isk back. The scammer got a permaban and the bhaalgorne bpc and all other stuff got frozen indefinitely. To the op: escalate it to a senior gm and explain it all, that it isn't your fault that others misuse the system. I hope it turns out well and if not then its time for a 100+ page whine thread aimed at CCP until they fixes it. //Kel note: pardon the grammar and spelling errors.
DayVV4lkEr Liga Freier Terraner Star Buccaneers	Posted - 2007.09.11 10:40:00 - [34] I have only 2 Questions: 1. How does it make any kind of sense to spend ISK on a Ship like a Rattlesnake for a ISK SELLER. or even how does it make sense that a ISK SELLER (!!!!) is spending ISK on anything. 2. If he is a known ISK Seller why isn't he god damn banned ?
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.11 10:57:00 - [35] Your initial questions seems about as useful as asking 'Do you want to GMs to fight against ISK ebayers?' Originally by: Omega Sinner gm's .. riping them off There is so much heresay and rumours about the issue, so perhaps you can make this thread example of unjustified incident with reasonably proof? That is, instead of just throwing general accusations, could you tell us: 1) Who sold the said item that got him 'fined' 2) What was the item, and for how much it was sold? 3) Exatcly what all the said player lost? (like XXX Isk, and the item still missing) 4) Was there some other unnormal events incldued? Like getting ISK from friend shortly before, etc With such info everyone can confirm that the contract (as finished public contracts are visible), and we hopefully can agree in with you that the said GM acted unreasonably. Otherwise it would be too easy to classify posts like this as typical 'complaint from justifiable wrist slapped fellow'. At first glance it might seem wrong if CCP started fining people who sell over-priced items to ISK sellers, since it would pose extra risk to otherwise legal market scamming/pricing etc. Then again, assuming that CCP indeed has identified a person selling large quanties of ISK; how likely such person would be buying overpriced items (for own use) from random people? If it only few innocents are hit in mistake (and reimbursed after lengthy battle), might be worth to follow such policy. Especially when there is work around for seller through pricing. -Lasse
Theo Samaritan Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.09.11 11:02:00 - [36] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Quote: and really whats say that gm didn't just transfer it all to his main or another toon. And whats to say he did transfer it all to his toon? Such claims without any proof beyond "GM such and such did this in the past" is just trying to stir the pot and cause trouble. Sorry, but it just frustrates me when people concieve that one issue is more likely than the other when no proof favours either conclusion. This caught my attention and no i didn't read the topic past this. To quote more or less what Sharkbait said, as soon as ANY isk leaves his account, or any staff members account, the account is locked down and an official investigation launched. ______________________________ A Request About Lag Discussion -- Yet another "Edit my sig devs!" request \o/
Archa Caldari Chickens with an Attitude	Posted - 2007.09.11 11:09:00 - [37] ah come on, give me a break. It is very likely that the op of this post forgot to tell something. CCP only removes isk from your wallet if they have a very good reason to do so. And if the person who lost all his money is innocent ccp will read his petition and refund him the money. It's that simple. It is a company that wants to keep his playerbase, not screw it over. The story isn't complete. That simple.
Kirjava Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.11 11:10:00 - [38] Well I am seriously recondsidering my carreer as an industrialist.... If I have such large market orders that can be taken by GMs because one of my clients bought ISK on ebay.... should I be worried that someone may buy all my stocks just to get me banned?
Chrysalis D'lilth	Posted - 2007.09.11 11:10:00 - [39] Originally by: DayVV4lkEr I have only 2 Questions: 2. If he is a known ISK Seller why isn't he god damn banned ? Easy, CCP are like many business who don't practice what they preach and have at best a double standard when it comes to business ethics. They are quite happy to take ingame money out of their subscribers wallets, but god forbid they actually dent their own wallet by banning a cheat from the game. People who buy/sell isk for real life currency should be banned the first time they are caught - no excuses, no exceptions just given the solid boot and ejected from the game.
Kirjava Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.11 11:18:00 - [40] Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth Originally by: DayVV4lkEr I have only 2 Questions: 2. If he is a known ISK Seller why isn't he god damn banned ? Easy, CCP are like many business who don't practice what they preach and have at best a double standard when it comes to business ethics. They are quite happy to take ingame money out of their subscribers wallets, but god forbid they actually dent their own wallet by banning a cheat from the game. People who buy/sell isk for real life currency should be banned the first time they are caught - no excuses, no exceptions just given the solid boot and ejected from the game. Keep in mind a major reason why people would buy isk in the first place is the slow pace of making isk when one first joins the game. Perhaps putting links to the GTC forum into the tutorial would make people realise that there's a legal way to do it and discourage purchasing from the sellers?

CharlieMurphy Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.09.11 11:20:00 - [41] Originally by: Omega Sinner It is bad what happened to this player..Not only was the isk that the item was bout with removed and the item not giving back being the rattlesnake faction bs.. But the player was then fined 1 bill isk for selling the item in the first place on open contract to a player he had no idea was buying it and was apperantly an known isk seller.. If the said toon who baught this faction bs is a known isk seller then why hasn't his account been banned before this incident ever took place.. If it was banned before hand there would be no problem and player would not be leaving for lose of items and isk because of inproperly trained GM's.. when did GMs start handing out fines? i thought they just removed "bad" isk, there are no fines this whole thing looks very suspect indeed and it seems to me that there are 2 possibilitys here 1, the op isnt telling the complete story 2, a GM has robbed somebody of alot of isk tbh its probably 1 but 2 would be more amusing i hope the op will keep the forum updated on this
Sirri	Posted - 2007.09.11 11:21:00 - [42] I have to wonder... perhaps this cash is being siphoned somewhere? Now, granted this is a tinfoil hat moment... But think on it.. High end gear, billions in ISK... no explanation? We already know the Devs/GMs cheat like hell. This would be a great way to cover their tracks.
Theo Samaritan Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.09.11 11:21:00 - [43] Originally by: Kirjava Keep in mind a major reason why people would buy isk in the first place is the slow pace of making isk when one first joins the game. Perhaps putting links to the GTC forum into the tutorial would make people realise that there's a legal way to do it and discourage purchasing from the sellers? That wont help much, the bloody sellers sit in newb spawns spamming local. ______________________________ A Request About Lag Discussion -- Yet another "Edit my sig devs!" request \o/
CharlieMurphy Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.09.11 11:33:00 - [44] Originally by: DayVV4lkEr I have only 2 Questions: 1. How does it make any kind of sense to spend ISK on a Ship like a Rattlesnake for a ISK SELLER. or even how does it make sense that a ISK SELLER (!!!!) is spending ISK on anything. 2. If he is a known ISK Seller why isn't he god damn banned ? something that has occured to me.... "why isnt he banned?" good question, if somebody is a known seller then why not? unless the message here is that buying isk is illigal but selling it is ok? this leads me on to.. how do you prove real life currency has changed hands when a GM takes back a large amount of isk from a player? not speaking from personal experience ofcourse but i do beleive that isk sales are done with credit cards and i find it unlikely that CCP is contactng VISA or whoever and tracing transactions for proof ,so at the end of the day the GM is taking an educated guess its strange that a GM can make this kind of guess over an issue like this that can totally ruin a players day/month or more and yet they cant make an educated guess over the likelyhood that you lost your ship to desync when there has just been a 500 man battle food for though
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.11 11:35:00 - [45] If this is true then I would like a list of all known isk-sellers so that i can avoid any dealings with them. Or is it up to me, the paying customer, to keep tack of the hundreds (thousands?) of isksellers in Eve so that CCP wont punish me? I'd then like list of chracteristics of these isk-sellers, provided by CCP, so that I have the possibility to identify them as I have no what to look for.
Curzon Dax The Ninja Coalition	Posted - 2007.09.11 11:53:00 - [46] Couple of points here, take them as you will. 1. Being an industrialist in Eve isn't a dangerous profession, insofar as we're talking about the risk of being banned accidentally. On most days, billions of ISK, sometimes tens of billions of ISK go in and out of my wallet. I'm sure that somewhere, at one time or another, my account activity has been peeked at by CCP, but I haven't ever been banned knock on wood And I've done it all; faction mods and ship selling as well. 2. There are many people who have been paid by ISK farmers to leave them alone in 0.0 - call it ransom, protection ISK, or what you will. They don't suffer issues with being banned. If they did, they would be screaming in the forums, and the practice would end. 3. I don't work at CCP. Granted...CCP has some dumb GMs. Some REALLY dumb GMs. Its not that they have a low IQ, or never finished grade school; I'd like to think that CCP has standards in their hiring practice - the problem is that a portion of GMs suffer from a combination of 1. Lacking Common Sense, and 2. Believing that your problem is identical to every other problem in a given category and can be treated the same, even when there are special circumstances. With this in mind, CCP has instituted a set of regulations and procedures that govern GM behavior. 4. Given the scope of my activities in Eve, there is probably a 99% chance that at one time or another, I've been paid on the market / contracts / escrow with bought / stolen / laundered ISK. Long story there, but its pretty much inevitable. I've never had ISK removed (and knock on wood again) 5. So when I say that your story doesn't sit well with me, understand where I'm coming from. If this was your friend telling you the story, he probably left something out. For example, perhaps he left out the fact that he sold the Rattlesnake to the ISK seller for 6 billion ISK. And also that there was a chat log between he and the ISK seller prior to the sale, establishing communication, and making sure that the buyer and seller were linked up correctly. If the story is actually YOURS, on a different account or something...well, I'd say the same thing. You're probably leaving something out. I suppose that its easy enough to tell a partial story and garner some sympathy from the general public, but golly gee. 6. In another game, I did get banned - Everquest 2. When I played EQ2, there was a website (eq2players.com) that tracked various statistics; the one I was always interested in was the wealthy list. There was a period of time when I was the richest player on the planet Earth, across all servers. One day...BAM My account was banned. I was furious. One does not buy currency when one already has buttloads of it. The investigation took 2 months, my account was unbanned, most of the platinum was returned to my account. I petitioned and got the rest back. I didn't get free playtime or anything, and very shortly after, quit Everquest 2. CCP != Sony Online Entertainment. This is a good thing. CCP sends get well cards to players. Sometimes. If you've been wronged, you'll be compensated. But bans don't fly about quite so quickly as you seem to think they do. What aren't you telling us?
Empire marketslave	Posted - 2007.09.11 11:54:00 - [47] This is what you do First ask them what EULA Violatoin you commited to warrent them removing your isk this is the relavent EULA for them B. Selling Items and Objects You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation characters, character attributes, items, currency, and objects, other than via a permitted Character Transfer as described in section 3 above. You may not encourage or induce any other person to participate in such a prohibited transaction. The buying, selling or auctioning (or any attempt at doing so) of characters, character attributes, items, currency, or objects, whether through online auctions (such as ebay), newsgroups, postings on message boards or any other means is prohibited by the EULA and a violation of CCP's proprietary rights in the Game. Also point out how the ISK you paid in taxes was lost. Also mention that by letting that rattlesnake sit in a banned hanger is them aidng an isk seller/buyer and by not giving it back they are aiding that seller/buyer and violating thier own EULA and if that doesn't work have them spawn you a new ship since that new one isn't dirty with bought isk
Sneeze100	Posted - 2007.09.11 11:54:00 - [48] what they are doing is taking goods and isk from folk and giving it to BOB, thats what i think ---------- freedom of speach
Fact Foreman	Posted - 2007.09.11 12:13:00 - [49] CCP dont care about ISK sellin, it seems that it is something they like and wana have in the game and im sure they know thats such a mowement in cash from outside the game ruin it at end, and thats why its so strange they dont care. Why do i say so, well lets look at some facts. I did petition npc corp member that was ofc in Raven in 0.0 system for a long time farmin for isk, if he got haulerspavns or something that most ppl find usefull he left it all alone ofc, all loot he ofc did allso leave alone. So 1 day i decide to talk to that young fellah and ask him what he is savin for or what hes gona do with all that isk. Responds did come where he admited he sells isk on Ebay to pay for hes study cost and is a young south corean guy (not a bad person but isk seller anyhow) that found easy and kinda funny way to earn some $ from ebay. Well i desided to petition it and i did copy paste the chat from local into petition and send it as i have been told that hard facts like that gets ppl free ban , Im not sure why i did waste my time in it or in any other way why i wasted time to try assist CCP. Maby it is because of multyply accounts i have trained for 4 years+, maby it is because i love the game but not where its goin because of this problem and many others or maby its just because im stupid, that must be it. Isk seller is ofc still farming hes isk and sellin it on Ebay and CCP ofc did send me the copypaste respond i think all of us have sometimes got in reply as it seems to be some computer sending those and some person lookin at 1 of each 1k petition, thats my guess at least. At least i tryed, i did spend MY time that I pay for to try help CCP to solve 1 of theyr 4794 problems as i thought they wanted proofs and the old player base to assist them, shame i was wrong. Congrats CCP on a beutyfull game with so nice playgamestyle, shame its not gona last so long i guess if you guys are gona walk around with the shorts down.
Omega Sinner	Posted - 2007.09.11 17:19:00 - [50] I know ccp doesn't care about buyers and sellers in truth Eula is there just to cover the company's arse so if deals go wrong they can't be held responsible.. an old corp I was in not only kicked a toon out for buying isk and bpo's but sent several petitions to ccp and the responce was were looking into it.. all he got was don't do it again and left with everything he baught.. and to those who say I'm not telling the whole story read it again.. the item in question is a Rattlesnake faction Bs..a faction rattlesnake sells on average for 1 or more billion for those who don't know what a rattlesnake is or sells for on average. Baught from the afflicated player by an apperantly known isk seller according to the gm for 1.1 bill.. Gm comes along says you've just been fined for selling to a known isk seller.. your item has been impounded. the 1.1 bill has been taken away. and your fined 1 bill for selling it to a known buyer. following comment from gm which got me.. Don't you check who your selling items to.. Its an open contract you can't till after the person has baught it.. and how are you as player to know who sells and buys isk unless they tell you they do.. This really comes down to improperly trained GM'S.. and ccp doesn't care about any one player leaving the game or couple there is tons per day the leave and tons per day that join.. I want to know what if anything is ccp going to do about this problem with there gm's.. and yes it is riping players off and if they do nothing about this problem then that tells me that they do condone it..

Nyphur Pillowsoft Total Comfort	Posted - 2007.09.11 17:27:00 - [51] Originally by: Omega Sinner following comment from gm which got me.. Don't you check who your selling items to.. Its an open contract you can't till after the person has baught it.. If that is true, that GM needs to be fired. Contact Internal Affairs. I highly doubt that it IS true but if it is, contact internal affairs about it. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Kirjava Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.11 17:35:00 - [52] I can see where CCP ard coming from to be honest - say there is 1000 accounts used by isk sellers - thats ú80,000 a year or two to three Dev paychecks. Hell - it's in EVERY mmo, why should CCP be immune to it when it does pay them more isk - less grind from buyers means more stay for longer which also increases revenue for CCP. Sad but true
Brock McF Caldari Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2007.09.11 17:39:00 - [53] Edited by: Brock McF on 11/09/2007 17:42:20 This has been happening for a long while now, CCP seems to have the policy of take first ask questions later, they also monitor all large isk transfers because isk buyers like to get rid of their isk as fast as possible. I personally have mixed feelings about their policy, but only because I have had 4.5bil taken from my wallet and accused of breaking the EULA after selling a character legally through the forums to a person with illicit isk. I of course made a forums post and had no real response. The masses always assume you did something wrong. If a GM takes isk from your wallet and you can PROVE you had no illegal wrong doings, you should petition with HIGH priority. Explain your case and at least in my case I had the isk returned and went along my way. Brock
Omega Sinner	Posted - 2007.09.11 18:01:00 - [54] I agree with you Brock..But unfortuantly there current stance from my understanding is hands in the air. a.k.a nothing being done hence 6 players now that I know have quit this game from this one incident.. If more ppl came forward with similar problems wether they were fixed or not.. Then and maybe then on one collective forum ccp can see just how big this problem really is instead of small doses of petitions... and just so ppl know petitions have been sent out.
CharlieMurphy Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.09.11 18:05:00 - [55] Quote: and to those who say I'm not telling the whole story read it again.. well if things are as you have depicted them it sounds like you been scammed by a GM if thats really whats happened... well the GM in question must be a bit thick as its so obviously tracable because every GM transaction in your wallet comes with an id number next to it so it can be identified wrong doings or not, there are no "fines" by GMs Originally by: Nyphur If that is true, that GM needs to be fired. Contact Internal Affairs. I highly doubt that it IS true and you know as well as I do that the eve playerbase can't take your word for it and GMs aren't allowed to post and confirm/deny it here but if it is, contact internal affairs about it. The forums are not the place for things like this. keeping these things behind closed doors can only lead to speculation and rumour why should this not be discussed openly ? if there is no dodgy business going on then i see no reason to hide the details

CCP Prism X	Posted - 2007.09.11 18:08:00 - [56] I find it hard to understand how anyone can actually believe that we would, intentionally, remove assets from an innocent player. It makes about as much sense as the first 10 revisions of this post of mine. It makes about as much sense as assuming our GMs are divine beings (which is the only way they could be infallible due to their omniscient nature). Heck, it makes as much sense as a Dev stepping into the forum equivalent of an erupting volcano... damn. We have senior GMs to deal with mistakes made by our GMs. If you believe you've been wronged by a GM, petition to them. You'll make their day if they find anything unlawful in their behavior and our most experienced GMs are quite adept with the whole reasonable doubt thing. Of course this has happened before, as I said nobody here is omniscient. On the flip side, it has also happened that people who have quite obviously been doing something unlawful petition over and over again to get their 'fine' reimbursed to them. This, quite obviously, wastes our GMs time as well as the time of all players who are waiting for a petition response. I'm not saying whoever you are referring to has been doing anything wrong, I'm merely offering a different perspective. But my main point is: Petition to the senior GMs. If that doesn't work and they maintain you were acting outside the frame of the law, petition to Internal Affairs. If that doesn't work then the logs are showing you did something unlawful. We don't condone our GMs running amok in some anti-customer frenzy trying to ruin our name (and again, that doesn't mean that it hasn't happened, by accident or malicious intent. But that's why we have watchers who watch the watchers). Never have condoned that, never will. We care, remmber. ~ Prism X Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006.

Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2007.09.11 18:12:00 - [57] Edited by: Jinx Barker on 11/09/2007 18:14:47 I have large amounts of ISK traveling between myself and my ALTs. I have a super-trader ALT that deals with large amounts of ISK on a regular basis. I am also very certain that at some point my accounts were investigated, and I make it a point to "keep my books clean" - in other words, I specify the reasons for transfers each time, it helps me with bookkeeping and I also make sure that all the trading the ALT does on the markets and on contracts is completely transparent and accessible for audit by a GM team. Now, the seller can do very little to protect him or herself from all eventualities. There is no way to protect yourself, if for example, you sold items on the open market and the buyer turns out to be an ISK farmer/seller/OOG Seller. What can be done, however, is keeping the books straight, that way, when CCP comes down on you, and investigates they can trace all the transactions, and see that the seller did not intend to sell things to an RMT entity for the sole purpose of laundering ISK, but was simply conducting business in-game and in accordance with EULA. At that point, if GMs do not listen, there are other options, you can escalate to a senior GM, you can contact Kieron, once all of your options are exhausted and the IA, one way or another they will get to the truth and vindication. It is scary, unpleasant and sometimes difficult, but I equate the RMT Interests in this game to Identity Thief's in RL, they can, and are capable of causing significant issues to innocent players by simply conducting business with them. That is why I hate them so fraggin much. GM Team has to be aware that many an honest trader have been inadvertently tainted by the RMT interests, w/o actually being part of that. EVE is too interconnected not to have been paid with "dirty" ISK at some point or another, just need to keep things clear and clean, and transparent on your end, and that will win out in the end.
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.11 18:14:00 - [58] Originally by: CCP Prism X I find it hard to understand how anyone can actually believe that we would, intentionally, remove assets from an innocent player. It makes about as much sense as the first 10 revisions of this post of mine. It makes about as much sense as assuming our GMs are divine beings (which is the only way they could be infallible due to their omniscient nature). Heck, it makes as much sense as a Dev stepping into the forum equivalent of an erupting volcano... damn. We have senior GMs to deal with mistakes made by our GMs. If you believe you've been wronged by a GM, petition to them. You'll make their day if they find anything unlawful in their behavior and our most experienced GMs are quite adept with the whole reasonable doubt thing. Of course this has happened before, as I said nobody here is omniscient. On the flip side, it has also happened that people who have quite obviously been doing something unlawful petition over and over again to get their 'fine' reimbursed to them. This, quite obviously, wastes our GMs time as well as the time of all players who are waiting for a petition response. I'm not saying whoever you are referring to has been doing anything wrong, I'm merely offering a different perspective. But my main point is: Petition to the senior GMs. If that doesn't work and they maintain you were acting outside the frame of the law, petition to Internal Affairs. If that doesn't work then the logs are showing you did something unlawful. We don't condone our GMs running amok in some anti-customer frenzy trying to ruin our name (and again, that doesn't mean that it hasn't happened, by accident or malicious intent. But that's why we have watchers who watch the watchers). Never have condoned that, never will. We care, remmber. Can one get isk removed for trades (in game transactions) with "known isk-sellers"? If so, will CCP make sure that the information about known isk-sellers are handed out to the community or are you expecting us to keep track of the isk-sellers in game?

CCP Prism X	Posted - 2007.09.11 18:22:00 - [59] Originally by: Jinx Barker Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: CCP Prism X CCP Prism X Stuff Cpt Fina Stuff Jinx Barker Stuff I love you. Not only do you answer questions for me but you remove uneccesary fat from the messages stored in the DB. Dev hug for you my friend. ~ Prism X Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006.

Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2007.09.11 18:23:00 - [60] Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: Jinx Barker Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: CCP Prism X CCP Prism X Stuff Cpt Fina Stuff Jinx Barker Stuff I love you. Not only do you answer questions for me but you remove uneccesary fat from the messages stored in the DB. Dev hug for you my friend. CCP Luv.... Awwwhhhhh

Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.11 18:27:00 - [61] Originally by: Jinx Barker Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: CCP Prism X CCP Prism X Stuff Can one get isk removed for trades (in game transactions) with "known isk-sellers"? If so, will CCP make sure that the information about known isk-sellers are handed out to the community or are you expecting us to keep track of the isk-sellers in game? I think that what he meant was we just need to make sure we keep common sense about things. If someone buys a Torpedo from you for 3 Billion ISk, then this is a sign that things may not be kosher. Or if someone buys a Raven from you for 500 Million ISk, well, that is not Kosher either. But if I buy 500 million trit each week and it turns out to be from an isk-seller. Will CCP say it's common sense that anyone selling that much so often might be an isk-seller and that it is up to me to clarify? Or will CCP atleast give the me a warning before taking any actions so that I have a chance of stopping before it's too late?
Omega Sinner	Posted - 2007.09.11 18:54:00 - [62] I love how ppl automatically believe you've done something wrong. "they wouldn't do soemthing like this unless you did something wrong first and formost" Mistakes happen all the time but gm's removing stuff from players is wrong.. and for......""EXAMPLE""......AND ONLY AN """EXAMPLE""" if I setup a contract for 10 bill for any other item if someone is stupid enough to buy it for that price because they didn't pay proper attention then its there fault they baught it in the first place and even if it was a isk seller buying the item if I truly don't know this and was playing the saps on the market then I shouldn't have a gm coming along and removing stuff from me is I was legally playing the market scam.. people buy things in this game all the time for stupid prices and I know CCP holds that policy as part of the game dynamic's.... Gm's Shouldn't have the ability to access players banks or stations or anything else unless the player is first warned and they get a mail of some sort stating that the company is condoning this..
Futher Bezluden Minmatar ORIGIN SYSTEMS Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.11 18:54:00 - [63] Punishing players because some idiot bought their stuff with illegally acquired isk... Priceless. How the hell are we to know that things we sell are bought by isk buyers? When will CCP start taking mods/ships and minerals from people because the minerals were sold by macro-miners with the justification: "Dear Player, You Moros contains 1500 units of tritanium purchased from a macro-mining team. We have a strict anti-macro policy so your Moros has been deleted." -and right there in a pos siege, you are in a capsule. THUKKER -Be Paranoid
Brutor Shaun	Posted - 2007.09.11 19:00:00 - [64] Please continue this discussion in this thread I think this is compulsory for all threads at the moment. Bookmark Idea - My skills
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.11 19:03:00 - [65] I also think that "use common sense" is way to vague as a guideline. Will CCP be able to claim that i lack common sense if I make a trade-deal with 500% profit? Give me a maximum profit percentage allowed on trading to insure that CCP don't take my money, please. How will scammers be able to go on with their business? Scam-deals don't make any sense; they are based on lazy people that aren't paying any attention. According to these guidelines, scammers will have no way of defending themselves as most of their transactions don't make any sense,
Boomershoot Caldari Insurgent New Eden Tribe	Posted - 2007.09.11 19:07:00 - [66] new suggestion: make a damn public list of known isk buyers/sellers or, more strict do not allow known isk buyer/seller to open up public contracts or, even more remove public contracts ----------------------------------------------- Forum Warfare - Rank (4) - Level V Forum Warfare Specialist - Rank (9) - Level III Armor Flame Compensation - Rank (5) - Level IV
CharlieMurphy Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.09.11 19:08:00 - [67] the farmers are the ones that should be getting banned CCP have shown they are able to track the movement of isk so why not track it back to the account that is actually producing it it cant be very hard to tell the difference between an honest player and a farming account tbh if all the farmers got banned every month they would soon give up and the whole isk for cash issue would mostly go away
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2007.09.11 19:12:00 - [68] Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Jinx Barker Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: CCP Prism X CCP Prism X Stuff Can one get isk removed for trades (in game transactions) with "known isk-sellers"? If so, will CCP make sure that the information about known isk-sellers are handed out to the community or are you expecting us to keep track of the isk-sellers in game? I think that what he meant was we just need to make sure we keep common sense about things. If someone buys a Torpedo from you for 3 Billion ISk, then this is a sign that things may not be kosher. Or if someone buys a Raven from you for 500 Million ISk, well, that is not Kosher either. But if I buy 500 million trit each week and it turns out to be from an isk-seller. Will CCP say it's common sense that anyone selling that much so often might be an isk-seller and that it is up to me to clarify? No, but if you buy it for megacyte prices they may. ----- Visible Implants - good for so many occasions
Adeimantus Qir Elite Ops Mafia	Posted - 2007.09.11 19:16:00 - [69] Edited by: Adeimantus Qir on 11/09/2007 19:16:57 I made a thread about a time card I sold and got the isk taken away AND never got the time code back. (guy who bought the code used isk he had bought) When I made a big fuss on the forums a GM set my account to -2 bil and said then "you bought isk". That blew me away and like trying to fight an enemy i cant return fire on, decided to give up. Even if they were wrong or wrong. I would drop it and leave it alone before everyone of you gets punished like me. CCP owns the game we pay for and unltimately can do whatever they want with it. Thing that would make me less angry would be that the game should be free then and I wouldnt get so upset. There are isk sellers out there, even buddies maybe. (they will never tell you incase you guys part and youll rat on em) So how do you determine who is the isk sellers are? Who's buying with bought isk? How are they known and not banned? How could a "known" isk seller sell anything and be known and not stopped? Why isnt the buyer punished and the seller released of all hardship? well whatever im not saying anyhting in depth (wish i could) I am barely breathing as it is from the 2.21 billion loss. (which i never bought)
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.11 19:18:00 - [70] Originally by: Adonis 4174 No, but if you buy it for megacyte prices they may. Where did you get that information?

CharlieMurphy Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.09.11 19:19:00 - [71] Edited by: CharlieMurphy on 11/09/2007 19:20:07 if there is any truth to Adeimantus Qirs post then that is absolutly shocking... internal affairs?
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2007.09.11 19:22:00 - [72] Edited by: Jinx Barker on 11/09/2007 19:24:00 Originally by: Adeimantus Qir I made a thread about a time card I sold and got the isk taken away AND never got the time code back. (guy who bought the code used isk he had bought) When I made a big fuss on the forums a GM set my account to -2 bil and said then "you bought isk". That blew me away and like trying to fight an enemy i cant return fire on, decided to give up. Even if they were wrong or wrong. I would drop it and leave it alone before everyone of you gets punished like me. CCP owns the game we play for and unltimately can do whatever they want with it. Thing that would make me less angry would be that the game should be free then and I wouldnt get so upset. There are isk sellers out there, even buddies maybe. (they will never tell you incase you guys part and youll rat on em) So how do you determine who is the isk sellers are? Who's buying with bought isk? How are they known and not banned? How could a "known" isk seller sell anything and be known and not stopped? Why isnt the buyer punished and the seller released of all hardship? well whatever im not saying anyhting in depth (wish i could) I am barely breathing as it is from the 2.21 billion loss. (which i never bought) What you saying is this: You Sold a GTC, followed all the posted rules, that govern GTC sales. Guy bought GTC from you, following all the prescribed rules. Guy used "Dirty ISK" CCP took away your ISK. CCP did not give you back a GTC. CCP Fined you 2.21 Billion ISK/For no other reason than... "You Bought ISK"? If the above is correct to a letter, than there is something wrong with the picture. Well, if you followed the rules, if you did everything legitimately, that was an asinine decision on the part of CCP. I would not have just stopped, and contacted IA, and had them look over the transactions and make a determination.
SPIONKOP Caldari Macabre Votum INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.09.11 19:23:00 - [73] Edited by: SPIONKOP on 11/09/2007 19:25:04 A friend of mine who has been ingame since launch lost 3.5bil when the GM's took it from his character and "accused" him of cheating. The loss of the 3.5bil was hard to take as he had not bought the ISK, however to be accused of cheating by some snotty nosed GM was way too much. Despite appeals to the so called senior GM's and the admission that they can't prove he bought the ISK he has still been found guilty without proof. He has cancelled his subs on his 2 accounts and will soon leave Eve for pastures new. I have written to CCP to back up my friend but I guess the email will fall of death ears. Nice One GM's. Another vet leaves the game. --------------------------------------------- Space For Rent. 100mil ISK/Week.
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2007.09.11 19:24:00 - [74] Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Adonis 4174 No, but if you buy it for megacyte prices they may. Where did you get that information? From an isk seller. I doubt I can say more but for the record I know they got reported shortly before I found they existed. ----- Visible Implants - good for so many occasions
Lugburz	Posted - 2007.09.11 19:25:00 - [75] Surely if you just sold it to a known isk seller...well..um... why didnt they deactivate the sellers account?
000Hunter000 Gallente Magners Marauders	Posted - 2007.09.11 19:27:00 - [76] if this is true then thats really reaaally bad! I mean i sell a few BS now and then, so if i put up a buncha BS on market for say 100 mill each, iskseller/buyer/macroer comes along and buys me bs, then gm comes along, removes isk from my wallet and does not return my bs? WTF is up with that? if it were, remove isk and return item then i'd say ok, thats fair, i can atleast try to sell the bs to a genuine customer. but why punish someone who has no idea, worse still, who is not doing anything wrong??? Would be nice if someone from ccp clarifies this. CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!! Magners is now recruiting, evemail me or Dagazbo ingame.
Donna Maria Amarr	Posted - 2007.09.11 19:31:00 - [77] Hmm, sounds like the war on drugs in the US. Instead of stopping the supplier, target the buyer. Because the supplier is beneficial and harder to stop. ISK selling is big business, thats why there are businesses devoted to making ISK available for sale. For CCP to stop ISK selling, targeting those that supply the ISK (And obviously pay to be in game and likely pay large amounts for multiple accounts) would hurt more than targeting those end users that are stupid/bold enough to try to avoid detection just to purchase 'ISK'. Conspiracy? Im the girl momma warned you about..
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.11 19:34:00 - [78] Originally by: Adonis 4174 Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Adonis 4174 No, but if you buy it for megacyte prices they may. Where did you get that information? From an isk seller. I doubt I can say more but for the record I know they got reported shortly before I found they existed. My point was that a sane price for some people isn't sane for others. If CCP tell us that "as long as we use our common sense you're ok" they can pretty much remove isk from whoever they like whenever they want.
Adeimantus Qir Elite Ops Mafia	Posted - 2007.09.11 19:35:00 - [79] I made a fuss and not only lost time card and isk......... they took all the other isk in my account too plus 2+bil isk. (I said some harsh things in my time code thread) So i guess thats how they got back at me.
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.09.11 19:36:00 - [80] Originally by: 000Hunter000 if this is true then thats really reaaally bad! I mean i sell a few BS now and then, so if i put up a buncha BS on market for say 100 mill each, iskseller/buyer/macroer comes along and buys me bs, then gm comes along, removes isk from my wallet and does not return my bs? WTF is up with that? if it were, remove isk and return item then i'd say ok, thats fair, i can atleast try to sell the bs to a genuine customer. but why punish someone who has no idea, worse still, who is not doing anything wrong??? Would be nice if someone from ccp clarifies this. Your only problem is if a ISK seller buys one of your BS for 1000 mill instead of 100 mill. Just keep an eye out for outragous sales. If there are any, petition the buyer. A GM will then decide if the buyer made a legit mistake and you can keep the ISK, or if the buyer is dirty and the ISK and buyer should be removed from the game. In the later case, you should get to keep either your ship or 100 mill. I have not heard of anyone who has followed the rules and not been a scammer get hit by the GM's. As Prism said, the GM's understand the concept of reasonable doubt. They also know how ISK buyers/sellers will work together to launder their transactions. Keep you books clean and you have nothing to fear. ************************** Ki Tech Industries - Bond Offer

Adonis 4174	Posted - 2007.09.11 19:37:00 - [81] Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Adonis 4174 Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Adonis 4174 No, but if you buy it for megacyte prices they may. Where did you get that information? From an isk seller. I doubt I can say more but for the record I know they got reported shortly before I found they existed. My point was that a sane price for some people isn't sane for others. If CCP tell us that "as long as we use our common sense you're ok" they can pretty much remove isk from whoever they like whenever they want. I think the actual reference was selling single units of trit for billions of isk. Can that be a sane price for anyone? ----- Visible Implants - good for so many occasions
Omega Sinner	Posted - 2007.09.11 19:38:00 - [82] There has been market scamming going on in this game from before I started 2 years ago. So now for gm's all of a sudden start removing items and isk from players selling things on market or contract legit or scamming the ppl who are just not paying attention after they have already taken the stance market scamming such as setting up a sale for 1 trit and trying to sell it as something else in the description was part of the game dynamics.. By saying there being baught by known isk sellers is still wrong..again players will not ever know who's a seller or a buyer unless told by that player that they are one or the other.. Take first ask questions later is a wrong stance to have that is how you lose players cause we all know who long ccp can take to get back to you.. and when you hear something you don't want to after waiting for how ever long it might have been then your ****ed and will leave this game..
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.09.11 19:43:00 - [83] Originally by: Omega Sinner There has been market scamming going on in this game from before I started 2 years ago. So now for gm's all of a sudden start removing items and isk from players selling things on market or contract legit or scamming the ppl who are just not paying attention after they have already taken the stance market scamming such as setting up a sale for 1 trit and trying to sell it as something else in the description was part of the game dynamics.. By saying there being baught by known isk sellers is still wrong..again players will not ever know who's a seller or a buyer unless told by that player that they are one or the other.. Take first ask questions later is a wrong stance to have that is how you lose players cause we all know who long ccp can take to get back to you.. and when you hear something you don't want to after waiting for how ever long it might have been then your **ed and will leave this game.. Scamming has been in the game since it was made, and continues today. However, scamming is a risky business these days. If you scam a legit sucker, then lucky you. If you "scam" and ISK seller, then not so lucky for you. Odds are high that ISK sellers aren't falling for scams by accident, and the GM's know this. If you pull of a successful 1 trit for 100 mill scam, then petition the sucker. GM's don't care if you scam within the rules, but if you try to using scamming to scam the rules they will take you down. ************************ Ki Tech Industries - Bond Offer
Brock McF Caldari Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2007.09.11 19:44:00 - [84] I don't honestly think CCP is out to screw over the innocent. I do agree with monitoring large isk transfers. There are still too many ways for isk sellers/buyers to get away with spending illicit isk. I dont know how hard it is to differentiate between innocent party and guilty party. But I think most of these threads are started by people who feel they did not have a proper pipe of communication with CCP or are just whining because they were at fault. Personally when I was accused, it was quite hard to find the correct pipe, was it an exploit petition or ... etc etc which I hope CCP has changed with the support upgrades. Yes CCP are people too and mistakes happen, but remember just because you are a GM doesnt mean you are right always (Double edged sword :P). Ultimately, the forums are a perfect place to discuss this sort of stuff, but not a place for accusations. However this thread begs the question, "Perhaps we are still lacking a sufficient communication channel?" Brock
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.11 19:47:00 - [85] Originally by: Adonis 4174 Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Adonis 4174 Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Adonis 4174 No, but if you buy it for megacyte prices they may. Where did you get that information? From an isk seller. I doubt I can say more but for the record I know they got reported shortly before I found they existed. My point was that a sane price for some people isn't sane for others. If CCP tell us that "as long as we use our common sense you're ok" they can pretty much remove isk from whoever they like whenever they want. I think the actual reference was selling single units of trit for billions of isk. Can that be a sane price for anyone? How is that anything different from the common and sanctioned trade of scamming? If I find out that there's an extreme demand for Scorpions in a system and that people are more than willing to pay 3 billion isk each for them, should I pass up on that because CCP might think the deals is dirty? Should we allow the isk-sellers to have such a great impact on the players? And there's no such thing as sane and insane by default. Is it sane to buy a shuttle for 18k instead of 9k 1 jump away? Some don't think so, others do. That's why CCP need to give us clear guidelines for people, who don't want their wallets erased, to follow.
Eulalinda	Posted - 2007.09.11 20:00:00 - [86] Edited by: Eulalinda on 11/09/2007 19:59:53 Originally by: Svavz Originally by: Kuolematon So CCP has a brand new policy: You have market sell orders or contract up. Someone buys stuff from you or gets your contract. Then few hours later GM rips off your ISK leaving you WITHOUT your recently sold STUFF and ISK while saying that buyer was KNOWN ISK BUYER/SELLER. Oh the joy. I won't be putting up and sell orders anymore because you will get buthfuksored by nice CCP GM's. This thread (because Its not the first time I've heard this happening) is certainly make me reconsider selling things... Same here. Can you imagine the police coming to you after you sold your house and saying "Sorry Mister. The buyer is a wanted felon for counterfeit money. We're taking your money you got for your house AND we're keeping your house." wtf??
Omega Sinner	Posted - 2007.09.11 20:04:00 - [87] Originally by: Cynical Attitude Quote: for example "For example" just doesn't cut it for the kind of accusation you're making. Prove that the situation you're implying happened is what actually happened and Eve is dead as noone can safely use the market or contracts any more. If you can't prove it, or that isn't what happened, then what is your point? if you actualy put the rest of the for example and only example in your quote your point wouldn't be moot.
Adeimantus Qir Elite Ops Mafia	Posted - 2007.09.11 20:10:00 - [88] The responses I got after waiting dayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyys was not proof I asked for, yet simply "you did it". So after 4 petitions in a gentleman scripted manor, I gave up and realized they do what they want and determine the result of whatever they want the result to be instead of what it may be or IS.
Decision Process	Posted - 2007.09.11 20:13:00 - [89] Quote: if you actualy put the rest of the for example Well, it came straight from your original post, which should have been on your screen as you were replying anyway. Quote: for example player sells rattlesnake on open contract other player buys it gm comes along says it was sold to a known isk seller and takes the isk he just got for the ship But the original quote is irrelevant to my point - which is that you haven't provided enough information to prove your version of events or to establish any kind of credibility. If a GM has good reason to believe that someone is involved in the laundering of bought ISK, then I support their actions.
BoBoZoBo Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.09.11 20:15:00 - [90] If this is going on its pretty fuked up. How are we supposed to know if we buy something from an illegal ISK seller? I can see the slight line of logic. I mean, if I were an ISK seller I would try to launder the money that way. But if they don't wanna loose peeps they better prove it. ========================= Minister of Propaganda* - Operator 9

Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.09.11 20:15:00 - [91] Originally by: Eulalinda Can you imagine the police coming to you after you sold your house and saying "Sorry Mister. The buyer is a wanted felon for counterfeit money. We're taking your money you got for your house AND we're keeping your house." Actually that is the way it works in many countries (I am including the USA and Canada as examples) not always with counter fitting, but often with drug trade. If you rent your house to a grow op they can take the rent money you were paid and take your house completely. Fortunately the GM's are more reasonable. If you are doing legitmate business you have nothing to fear. You will keep either your goods or the market value ISK. If you are scamming, then you need to make sure that the people you scam are legit, otherwise you might be getting scammed instead of doing the scamming. With most scams this should not be a problem. ************************** Ki Tech Industries - Bond Offer
i take	Posted - 2007.09.11 20:15:00 - [92] hehe i find it funny that people actually bring this up.. clearly they only interfear, if they can see that the item have been sold way overpriced or if their are something very odd with the trade. which 99% of the time will mean that it is isk buying/selling. if you do this and get cought it is your own fault. be happy that they actually do something to stop people from buying isk
Shinris	Posted - 2007.09.11 20:18:00 - [93] Originally by: Eulalinda Edited by: Eulalinda on 11/09/2007 19:59:53 Originally by: Svavz Originally by: Kuolematon So CCP has a brand new policy: You have market sell orders or contract up. Someone buys stuff from you or gets your contract. Then few hours later GM rips off your ISK leaving you WITHOUT your recently sold STUFF and ISK while saying that buyer was KNOWN ISK BUYER/SELLER. Oh the joy. I won't be putting up and sell orders anymore because you will get buthfuksored by nice CCP GM's. This thread (because Its not the first time I've heard this happening) is certainly make me reconsider selling things... Same here. Can you imagine the police coming to you after you sold your house and saying "Sorry Mister. The buyer is a wanted felon for counterfeit money. We're taking your money you got for your house AND we're keeping your house." wtf?? actually they DO. if you sell your house to a freind for 5$(or appertment) they will come and give you a huge feind, since your clearly doing it to avoid tax in one way or the other. if you sell/buy it at a reasonable price/amount then nothing will happend. but if not they investigate and if it just happend to be some one that is doing this misuse/rulebreaking on a daily basis, well then you have to assume that the other guy was in on it
The RepoMan Caldari Red Horizon Inc Red Horizon	Posted - 2007.09.11 20:19:00 - [94] Dont think I've said this one yet... but seriously, proof or stfu. Provide specific example of specific characters who will provide screenshots of all player transactions in his journal for the last year or so, through donations or sales or whatever, and if there's no random huge donation or series of smaller donations from some guy with a obvious farmer name I'll eat my hat.
Adeimantus Qir Elite Ops Mafia	Posted - 2007.09.11 20:22:00 - [95] LOL...........some ppl......namely the one chiming in the most with gibberish crap doesnt realize its not just over priced crap....... hmmm... how to say it without starting trbl for myself agn... Mine was all at market value, or GTC going rates. Im not talking about the ones that sell 1 tritanium for 1 billion isk. I mean the guy who sells a hulk for 125mil and loses the hulk and the isk because it was bought with isk the buyer had purchased.
Omega Sinner	Posted - 2007.09.11 20:28:00 - [96] They may own the product..but I spend my money on it I enjoy it..I am the reason along with all other players they still have a product to sell.. What gives them the right in a game said to be, marketed to be a game for players to make what happens in the universe happen.. To remove items and isk on an asumption of an item sold for its value is being apperantly sold to a known isk seller.. if they have such a strong stand againts isk sellers and buyers why are ppl that are being ligite being tageted. the Known isk seller is still playing this game..
Brock McF Caldari Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2007.09.11 20:31:00 - [97] Edited by: Brock McF on 11/09/2007 20:35:39 In no way am I trying to support isk selling or buying, BUT I want to make it abundantly clear that this kind of stuff happens to honest/innocent people. Like I said before, it is a problem that has happened before and will happen again while illegal isk selling/buying is available and so closely related to legal scamming. In my case I did get the isk back, which maybe I should have received the character back at any rate, I don't want people to discredit or blow off as simple whine. It is an issue with the current system that I am sure CCP is aware of. Proof. PIC! Thought I would add, if you can not prove your claim then I would say the GM has every right to remove the isk. I am not standing up for anyone. Brock
Adeimantus Qir Elite Ops Mafia	Posted - 2007.09.11 20:31:00 - [98] my theory is......umm. the isk sellers are actually the ppl from ....... nevermind
The RepoMan Caldari Red Horizon Inc Red Horizon	Posted - 2007.09.11 20:35:00 - [99] Originally by: Adeimantus Qir LOL...........some ppl......namely the one chiming in the most with gibberish crap doesnt realize its not just over priced crap....... hmmm... how to say it without starting trbl for myself agn... Mine was all at market value, or GTC going rates. Im not talking about the ones that sell 1 tritanium for 1 billion isk. I mean the guy who sells a hulk for 125mil and loses the hulk and the isk because it was bought with isk the buyer had purchased. lol answering that would be answering the op... which im pretty sure isnt allowed on these forums, you just kind of read 3-4 posts in and reply on the random unrelated tangent subjects. To be clear, you're talking about situations where your legitimately created item is bought with illicitly obtained isk, and then the item is destroyed, and then the buyer's isk is removed from your account? In which case, it sucks but that's just what has to be done. Otherwise, if the item in question is not destroyed and not returned, then I'd say that's a wee bit lame, but most likely due to technical constraints.
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.11 20:35:00 - [100] Originally by: i take hehe i find it funny that people actually bring this up.. clearly they only interfear, if they can see that the item have been sold way overpriced or if their are something very odd with the trade. which 99% of the time will mean that it is isk buying/selling. if you do this and get cought it is your own fault. Please, feel free to share where you got the "99% of all overpriced items are made by isksellers"-info from. Quote: be happy that they actually do something to stop people from buying isk The goal of removing isk-sellers is to please the user-base. If the method used to achieve this goal upsets the users and limits their gameplay-experience instead, the whole point is lost and they shouldn't be happy about it.

Adonis 4174	Posted - 2007.09.11 20:36:00 - [101] Originally by: Shinris Originally by: Eulalinda Edited by: Eulalinda on 11/09/2007 19:59:53 Originally by: Svavz Originally by: Kuolematon So CCP has a brand new policy: You have market sell orders or contract up. Someone buys stuff from you or gets your contract. Then few hours later GM rips off your ISK leaving you WITHOUT your recently sold STUFF and ISK while saying that buyer was KNOWN ISK BUYER/SELLER. Oh the joy. I won't be putting up and sell orders anymore because you will get buthfuksored by nice CCP GM's. This thread (because Its not the first time I've heard this happening) is certainly make me reconsider selling things... Same here. Can you imagine the police coming to you after you sold your house and saying "Sorry Mister. The buyer is a wanted felon for counterfeit money. We're taking your money you got for your house AND we're keeping your house." wtf?? actually they DO. if you sell your house to a freind for 5$(or appertment) they will come and give you a huge feind, since your clearly doing it to avoid tax in one way or the other. if you sell/buy it at a reasonable price/amount then nothing will happend. but if not they investigate and if it just happend to be some one that is doing this misuse/rulebreaking on a daily basis, well then you have to assume that the other guy was in on it In the UK if you get passed counterfeit money you can indeed wind up in debt if it only gets recognised after going into your bank. If the notes can be positively identified as being paid into your account then it is possible you could have withdrawn the money already when they debit your account and inform the police. ----- Visible Implants - good for so many occasions
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.09.11 20:55:00 - [102] scary ****... why wouldn't the GM give back your stuff. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP need...more room...
Eulalinda Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.11 22:32:00 - [103] Originally by: CCP Prism X But my main point is: Petition to the senior GMs. If that doesn't work and they maintain you were acting outside the frame of the law, petition to Internal Affairs. Thank you (sincerely) for taking the time to quell my fears that CCP was in fact punishing the victims alongside the criminals. I now understand that it's NOT official CCP policy to take both the ISK and the item in question from someone who innocently sold something to a virtual villain. Per CCP Dr.EyjoG there are currently "http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=498190.000 paid subscrip

CCP Prism X	Posted - 2007.09.11 23:10:00 - [104] Originally by: Eulalinda Originally by: CCP Prism X Some crap I said. The lovable stuff you posted. Thank you. From the bottom of my heart! And I'm being super-cereal here! You didn't try to twist my words against me. You didn't quote some other Dev who might have said something which might be interpreted as the opposite of what I said. You didn't attempt to read between the lines and find some personal insult. You didn't restate the statement in a different disguise after I answered it. You didn't reply to me in a tone which implies that I or my coworkers are idiots and you know everything better than us. Mostly you didn't blatantly ignore what I wrote. You just took the information I presented, in my own twisted way mind you, to heart and even offered me the satisfaction of knowing there are some people out there who my posts might actually help with anything other than their boredom. Thank you. From the cholesterol bondaged bottom of my heart! And top the OP: You give me a character name, a date, and the petition subject (date or whatever will help me find it) the GMs rejected and I'll look into it myself. I'm not a GM, I'm not a senior GM and I'm not a part of our IA department but I can talk to all these people and I have access to far more data than they do. I'll do this this one time, to show that I, as a part of us, care. This one time only. Now anyone who has ever come close to customer service knows that I'm so intensively shooting... tactically nuking.. myself in the leg by offering this. I fully understand this and I'll most likely have to do this on my own time but it's fine. I'll have a topic to link to every time this is posted to show our good intentions in action. I'm still not saying we don't do mistakes. I'm saying we mean well. Everyone does mistakes. I just did a huge mistake by posting this offer so I'm living proof. I'm just saying we're ready to admit it and work it out. M'kay? ~ Prism X Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006.

Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2007.09.11 23:16:00 - [105] Originally by: CCP Prism X And top the OP: You give me a character name, a date, and the petition subject (date or whatever will help me find it) the GMs rejected and I'll look into it myself. I'm not a GM, I'm not a senior GM and I'm not a part of our IA department but I can talk to all these people and I have access to far more data than they do. I'll do this this one time, to show that I, as a part of us, care. This one time only. Now anyone who has ever come close to customer service knows that I'm so intensively shooting... tactically nuking.. myself in the leg by offering this. I fully understand this and I'll most likely have to do this on my own time but it's fine. I'll have a topic to link to every time this is posted to show our good intentions in action. I'm still not saying we don't do mistakes. I'm saying we mean well. Everyone does mistakes. I just did a huge mistake by posting this offer so I'm living proof. I'm just saying we're ready to admit it and work it out. M'kay? I think this pretty much closes this thread for all times. What else can anyone ask for? Sure as hell, if I ever had a problem, and the above offer came along, I would be jumping for joy.
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.09.11 23:22:00 - [106] Originally by: CCP Prism X I'm still not saying we don't do mistakes. I'm saying we mean well. Everyone does mistakes. I just did a huge mistake by posting this offer so I'm living proof. I'm just saying we're ready to admit it and work it out. M'kay? This is why you guys are so great, even your mistakes tend to make things better by the end of it all. ************************** Ki Tech Industries - Bond Offer
Mari Onette Amarr	Posted - 2007.09.11 23:31:00 - [107] Originally by: CCP Prism X I find it hard to understand how anyone can actually believe that we would, intentionally, remove assets from an innocent player. Because people don't always know, or tell the whole truth, and most people aren't even willing to listen to someone else's side of the story or evidence, once they have made up their mind. Originally by: CCP Prism X Petition to the senior GMs. If that doesn't work and they maintain you were acting outside the frame of the law, petition to Internal Affairs. If that doesn't work then the logs are showing you did something unlawful. Say I put a shuttle up for 50m isk as a scam. Scams are legitimate and allowed, as they are a part of the game. Nothing wrong with this? right? Now let's say that someone buys my shuttle for 50m isk, because he wasn't paying attention to what he was clicking on. In other words, my scam goes exactly as planned and I make a cool 50m isk off someone else's inattentiveness. There is nothing wrong with this either? Right? Scamming is a part of the game after all. Now lets throw in the twist. The inattentive player who bought my shuttle is a known isk seller. Shame on them, they should be banned for cheating of course. There's nothing wrong with that either. Now, when the GM's check the logs, they see that a known isk seller bought a shuttle for 50m isk. According to the logs, my scam would be identical to a real money transfer, and according to policy, the GM takes away my legitimately stolen 50m isk. I have now been branded a cheater for scamming. This is bad. So I go and petition for it, following CCP's guidelines, and am told that I took part in a real money transfer and the logs prove it. Ok, Time to escalate to a senior GM. I escalate, and explain that it was really just a legitimate scam. But the logs still look the same as a real money transfer, so my escalation gets turned down because I'm a dirty cheater. So now I escalate to Internal Affairs, and get the same response AGAIN, all because the logs cannot distinguish between a real money transfer and a scam. I'm out 50m isk. I have a permanent mark on my account for buying isk, and GM's, senior GM's and Internal affairs all believe I am a cheater. All because the victim of my legitimate scam happened to be an isk farmer. Prism, I'm playing devils advocate here. How would a senior GM or Internal Affairs handle a case like this? How do you determine if I'm cheating, or just being an evil bastard? I think that explaining your process in cases like this would go a long way towards making people feel more comfortable about GM's removing isk from peoples wallets. - I am in blood! Stepp'd in so far that, should I wade no more, it would be as tedious as going over. -MacBeth - At 20 dollars a month, Eve costs 2 cents an hour to play. Downtime is cheap.
Kazuma Saruwatari	Posted - 2007.09.11 23:37:00 - [108] Mari Onette touched on the points I was about to say, so I wish also to have some assurance that because of old legitimate "scam" tactics becoming the bane of EVE gameplay, and even legitimate gameplay coming under fire because GM's spot in the logs that the money comes from an ISK seller when we have no way of knowing how/when we come into contact with said tainted isk. At least a proper explanation as to why our isk is taken away and the ability to contest our lost isk besides going through the now-loaded petition system would be enough. As it stands, this is just scaring more like-minded individuals from making market deals in the first place. - Odd Pod Out, a blog of EVE Online

CCP Prism X	Posted - 2007.09.11 23:41:00 - [109] I've said this before and I'll say it again: "I love being a turtle!". Or what I actually meant to say: I can't give away that information as it would further enable ISK sellers to better hide their deals. I will never be able to divulge information on how we differentiate between scammers and ISK sellers. However, seeing as you spent some time on playing the DA (and I respect that as a avid forum warrior myself) I can tell you as much: If we had real problems with differentiating between ISK sellers and scammers, would scamming be such a thriving source of ISK? Best I can do, sorry. ~ Prism X Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006.

Kazuma Saruwatari	Posted - 2007.09.11 23:43:00 - [110] Quite riddly meanings there Prism, but still, some may not be satisfied. I'm at least, am. (cheerier things to note) On the side though... Originally by: CCP Prism X I've said this before and I'll say it again: "I love being a turtle!". Whatever you're smoking/eating/drinking/taking, I want it, nao - Odd Pod Out, a blog of EVE Online

Eulalinda Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.12 00:05:00 - [111] Originally by: Mari Onette I have a permanent mark on my account for buying isk, and GM's, senior GM's and Internal affairs all believe I am a cheater. All because the victim of my legitimate scam happened to be an isk farmer. I agree with you that it's not hard to imagine such a scenario where someone gets wronged by CCP, but like TJ said... Quote: "How much pain they have cost us, the evils which have never happened." --Thomas Jefferson I'm not aware of any specifics. Did this thread list any? (If so, I'll crusade with you.) With 190,000 paying EVE customers and game time costing $11-15/month, CCP collects from us $2.1-2.8 million/month ($25-34 million/year). Server upgrades?
Mari Onette Amarr	Posted - 2007.09.12 00:10:00 - [112] Originally by: CCP Prism X I've said this before and I'll say it again: "I love being a turtle!". Or what I actually meant to say: I can't give away that information as it would further enable ISK sellers to better hide their deals. I will never be able to divulge information on how we differentiate between scammers and ISK sellers. However, seeing as you spent some time on playing the DA (and I respect that as a avid forum warrior myself) I can tell you as much: If we had real problems with differentiating between ISK sellers and scammers, would scamming be such a thriving source of ISK? Best I can do, sorry. Fair play. Loose lips do sink ships. It worries me that logs can be the be all and end all in situations like i described. So long as players get a chance to really explain how everything went down in their eyes, and CCP seriously evaluates if said explanation aligns with the logs, then I'm satisfied. It's not like theres a method of solving this to everyones satisfaction after all. - I am in blood! Stepp'd in so far that, should I wade no more, it would be as tedious as going over. -MacBeth - At 20 dollars a month, Eve costs 2 cents an hour to play. Downtime is cheap.
pirategirl85	Posted - 2007.09.12 00:27:00 - [113] I hope CCP GMs are reading this thread as this is REALLY BAD for them. This type of bad pr could cripple them.
deadbear	Posted - 2007.09.12 00:53:00 - [114] Edited by: deadbear on 12/09/2007 00:54:16 I run a customer support department so i know all to well how the truth will be twisted by clients and how people just live to complain about what ever they can. Some things i have observed from being on the other end of customer service: you fix their issue - they complain it was broken too long you show them how they caused their own issue - they complain about it not being idiot proof you hold their hand and take them step by step - they threaten a lawsuit because some how its your fault is CCP's customer service model perfect: no, no ones is. They need quicker response times and people who actually read the petition, I my self have filed less than a handfull of petitions with all needed information with in it however the GM will just glance over it and whip out a incorrect or partial response. This just results in a response from the client saying look at what i first said IE there are 2 cans anchored at XYZ moon awesome job on removing 1 when i said there were 2 in my first response. IF gm's fully reviewed each item and sent a full response the first time, the level of complaints would drop (my company created policy to make this happen) as well it lowers the overall volume. people caught skimming or not fully reading were issued warning/writeup depending on the issue. and this works when the volumes are 1500 or so new tickets opened a day (what my dept sees in volume) but i am sure it would do the same for lower/higher numbers
Night Tripper Es and Whizz	Posted - 2007.09.12 01:11:00 - [115] an old corp mate told me this little story that happened to him maybe about 6 months ago, i wouldn't be able to validate for sure how true it was, but it sounded believable. he used to be a big fan of popping ISK farmers. then one day after a particularly successful evening they decided to get their revenge, and dropped some "dirty isk" in his account. he wasn't online when it happened, but when he did login, his wallet had been cleared out and in negative. looking at the transactions, someone had deposited a few 100M, then fairly swiftly afterwards a GM had removed it, and some more. he filed a petition, but didn't really get anywhere. from the GMs perspective does sound like a rather tall story.. maybe it was, but scary how easy that could work. i believe he got a short and rude evemail from the farmer too, insinuating what had been done. my corp mate left eve fairly shortly aftewards, though was one of many reasons.
Devian 666 Sectoid Technologies	Posted - 2007.09.12 02:38:00 - [116] Edited by: Devian 666 on 12/09/2007 02:52:46 For most of this proof or STFU. Telling various sob stories so people will give you isk is a trust scam. There are certain things that isk sellers will do which will give away the nature of the transactions. Scammers look like scammers, isk sellers look like isk sellers. If a mistake has been made petition gms -> senior gms -> IA. This has been made very clear and what I have said to people before is explain clearly what the issue is and give details, dates, times and what has happend. If all you do is petition and state "mY acct haz bean ha><0rEd by a GM" you're not doing much to help yourself. Quit your moaning and read between the lines of what the Dev has been saying above. He can't give away much as it'll make their job harder. I agree I don't have the features to be a holoreel star. Most people have missed the point that this is Mobsters Online and that carebears are at the bottom of the foodchain.
Aprudena Gist Caldari Chokdi Science and Industry	Posted - 2007.09.12 02:55:00 - [117] if they let stuff like this happen period i should just stop playing because its going to be taken away by some stupid ****** GM one day dont allow GM to over turn sales from ISK sellers just ban the ISK Seller accounts and leave the money in their wallets because its ***** unfair otherwise.
Devian 666 Sectoid Technologies	Posted - 2007.09.12 03:13:00 - [118] Originally by: Aprudena Gist if they let stuff like this happen period i should just stop playing because its going to be taken away by some stupid ****** GM one day dont allow GM to over turn sales from ISK sellers just ban the ISK Seller accounts and leave the money in their wallets because its ***** unfair otherwise. So you are suggesting that people buy isk from isk sellers and that the GMs leave it in their account? Perhaps you should read the EULA. You can trade gtc with players for isk legitmately so there isn't actually an issue. I agree I don't have the features to be a holoreel star. Most people have missed the point that this is Mobsters Online and that carebears are at the bottom of the foodchain.
Aprudena Gist Caldari Chokdi Science and Industry	Posted - 2007.09.12 03:20:00 - [119] Originally by: Devian 666 Originally by: Aprudena Gist if they let stuff like this happen period i should just stop playing because its going to be taken away by some stupid ****** GM one day dont allow GM to over turn sales from ISK sellers just ban the ISK Seller accounts and leave the money in their wallets because its ***** unfair otherwise. So you are suggesting that people buy isk from isk sellers and that the GMs leave it in their account? Perhaps you should read the EULA. You can trade gtc with players for isk legitmately so there isn't actually an issue. NO if ISK sellers buy stuff off the market for reasonable prices ( like anyone else would pay) those should be left alone.
Devian 666 Sectoid Technologies	Posted - 2007.09.12 03:23:00 - [120] Originally by: Aprudena Gist Originally by: Devian 666 Originally by: Aprudena Gist if they let stuff like this happen period i should just stop playing because its going to be taken away by some stupid ****** GM one day dont allow GM to over turn sales from ISK sellers just ban the ISK Seller accounts and leave the money in their wallets because its ***** unfair otherwise. So you are suggesting that people buy isk from isk sellers and that the GMs leave it in their account? Perhaps you should read the EULA. You can trade gtc with players for isk legitmately so there isn't actually an issue. NO if ISK sellers buy stuff off the market for reasonable prices ( like anyone else would pay) those should be left alone. Ok. I'll spell this out. There is no proof of what anyone has said and yet you believe it. Please read the Dev posts carefully and comprehend them. You have nothing to fear if your transactions are legitimate and if a mistake is made you can petition it and recover your isk. I feel that someone needs to start a corp to improve reading comprehension. I agree I don't have the features to be a holoreel star. Most people have missed the point that this is Mobsters Online and that carebears are at the bottom of the foodchain.

Vrizuh Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.12 04:13:00 - [121] Edited by: Vrizuh on 12/09/2007 04:13:21 Oh this is gonna be fun. PrismX and that female dev who does the drone regions are my fav devs. EDIT: more respectful
An Anarchyyt Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.09.12 04:20:00 - [122] Originally by: Vrizuh PrismX and that female dev who does the drone regions are my fav devs. EDIT: more respectful Prism is my favorite Dev too. Even if he nerfed his avatar. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
RedLion Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.12 04:37:00 - [123] Dear Prism X (I hope you read this): I don't know what logic CCP follows. But isn't it better to let 10 people go unpunished than punish an innocent person? On another topic: Do you find it strange that people buy ISK? I didn't know it was illegal for a longtime. Because I thought the GTC trading was kinda like allowing RMT. And people are spammed about buying isk, from the rookie channels, into the recruitment channels, into locals or what not.... I mean, how can people know it's illegal? It's not like everyone who install a software nowadays read all the wall of text in the installing process. I mean, if I didn't know buying isk was illegal and first lost my bought isk then the same amount additional, i would be pretty ****ed of. If you don't stop isk spam, you should not be so strict penalizing people who buy isk, because I believe there are people buying isk in good belief. though I have no idea how many people you penalize for buying isk compared to the real money of isk buyers.. On another topic, but it's still GM contact. Some days ago I lost like 400 mill worth of stuff (almost all my assets) due to a game bug. I know it was a game bug, but the GM who served me copy pasted some standard answer about he couldn't find it in the logs. Ofc I reopened my petition, but I mean, if now in the closest days a senior GM are lazy and don't do their job either, what can I do then? I know it was a bug, but what can I do? Keep on petitioning and petitioning? Or maybe stop subscribing on EVE? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The Gallenteans must be destroyed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Nyphur Pillowsoft Total Comfort	Posted - 2007.09.12 05:28:00 - [124] Originally by: RedLion Dear Prism X (I hope you read this): I don't know what logic CCP follows. But isn't it better to let 10 people go unpunished than punish an innocent person? They don't punish inno-- aw forget it, this just isn't getting through to people. Christ. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Sabiokah	Posted - 2007.09.12 05:38:00 - [125] Edited by: Sabiokah on 12/09/2007 05:38:29 Actually, catching isk sellers is pretty easy. Buy isk on one site. Go in game, make the transaction, then "steal" the account. Then check all communication and examine logs on who is giving money to sellers. Then revoke the credit card transaction.
zincol S.A.S Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.09.12 06:02:00 - [126] A fellow corp m8 of mine had 30bil taken from him over 3 accounts leaving him -30bil isk gms would not give a straight answer. he has now left the game closing 4 accounts total. ccp suck.
Vilis Meretrix	Posted - 2007.09.12 06:12:00 - [127] The biggest problem with punishing ISK buyer is that it ALWAYS leads to a bad end for CCP. John_Doe buys ISK. John_Doe gets caught and punished John_Doe gets angry and quits, blaming CCP rather then admitting to buying ISK to his friends. Quiting is accompanied by a*****-and-bull story about how CCP messed up. Friends of John_Doe believe him. Therefore CCP is the bad guy. This post not aimed at anyone in particular, or any particular example. Just seems to be a common occurrence.
Mr Billybob Caldari Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.09.12 06:29:00 - [128] i think they are taking the easy way out of solving isk selling and decided to damage the honest players -------------------------------------------- grrrrr
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.09.12 06:30:00 - [129] Quote: I don't know what logic CCP follows. But isn't it better to let 10 people go unpunished than punish an innocent person? Don't know about you, but I think it's better to punish those 10 people and risk that one is 'innocent' as you put, and undo any 'bad' you've done to that person if possible. In this sort of case, the 'bad' is easily undone. So yeah, it's better to punish 10 and sweep up someone who wasn't deserving of it in the process. Personally, I'm surprised that this topic is still going. I've caught up with what people are saying, and the only reason this could actually have been an ISK Buyer caught out has not been debunked. Once again, for anyone who read me making this claim eariler, I'm not going to post how you'd do it, because it's a step-by-step to breaching the EULA, if you don't realise how this could be done, you should probably think before you hit the reply button to this topic again. And until my private little theory is debunked, I'm not going to believe one bit of the "zomg ccp lining their own characters pockets" rubbish. It's against CCP's policies to reveal any investigation details, and the OP has no need to tell us the truth or otherwise, so everyone's hands are tied in terms of recieving a proper answer. Improve Market Competition!
Bizz Lizz	Posted - 2007.09.12 07:21:00 - [130] @Prism X Good posts, but like you said yourself, people make mistakes. I hope that those people, who investigate in such cases, don't forget that, if someone complains. There is not much more annoying than dealing with customer support, if they think they are right and 'block' right from the beginning without listening to the customer. Yes, I've had some trouble once, not with EVE GMs though, on an occasion that doesn't matter here. In short: Got a temp ban for something based on wrong assumptions, then a perma ban for complaining and trying to prove my point. After that I ran against a wall for like 10 days and then I actually found someone, who listened, noticed that their decision was a mistake and removed the ban in no-time. I was happy and felt glad, but exausted and if someone had taken me seriously in the beginning instead of issuing a perma ban for me trying to communicate and prove my point, it would have been easier. So yes that's why I always feel with people now, who are punished somehow and then all communications stops without listening to them. People deserve to get heard, although it's usually not granted by the EULAs.

Nyphur Pillowsoft Total Comfort	Posted - 2007.09.12 07:37:00 - [131] Originally by: Mr Billybob i think they are taking the easy way out of solving isk selling and decided to damage the honest players Oh yeah, obviously CCP has decided that instead of banning isk-buyers and isk-sellers, they're going to ban random honest players that did nothing wrong. What are you smoking? Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Imperius Blackheart Caldari Trinity Nova KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.12 08:04:00 - [132] Prism X, you sir quite frankly are awesome.
Vele Nori Amarr	Posted - 2007.09.12 09:21:00 - [133] Edited by: Vele Nori on 12/09/2007 09:21:15 Originally by: Adeimantus Qir LOL...........some ppl......namely the one chiming in the most with gibberish crap doesnt realize its not just over priced crap....... hmmm... how to say it without starting trbl for myself agn... Mine was all at market value, or GTC going rates. Im not talking about the ones that sell 1 tritanium for 1 billion isk. I mean the guy who sells a hulk for 125mil and loses the hulk and the isk because it was bought with isk the buyer had purchased. GM Nova has told you that you did not use the secure system when you traded your GTC with someone. Someone paid you with ill-gotten ISK in which case CCP specifically said that they will take the ISK away and you will lose the code too because the buyer will obviously try to immediately apply it. They took something like 40 bil from Amber Leonne who traded GTCs with a EULA violator and did not use the secure system. CCP said that these are the measures they are going to take now. You chose to not use the secure system, so you have no reason to complain about gtc money now.
Vrizuh Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.12 10:26:00 - [134] Redlion, IRL we let the 10 walk free for the 1. In a game, execution is reversible. Every aspect of your time in game is logged (transactions, conversations etc). Guilt and Innocence are far easier to prove. That said, I agree that GMs prolly screw up every now and then. As long as they are quick to fix it, its ok. But they gotta be quick. One of the biggest mistakes a MMO maker can make (in my opinion) is to underestimate what their game means to their players. A player who has just lost 10 bil isk is going to be emotional and can't wait 3 weeks. I have heard, rumour only, that in South Korea there is a section of the police dept for handling MMO related crimes/gripes. Damn that'd be good. Someone to *** down on idiots who keylog for accounts, and *** down on MMO providers who deprive innocent players of their hard earned avatars/communities.
Kahlan Rahl	Posted - 2007.09.12 11:08:00 - [135] Wizard's First Rule "People Are Stupid."
Althea Nar'agh StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.09.12 11:21:00 - [136] What really puzzles me is this: We have this nice guy from CCP that says, give me some details, a petition subject what not, and I'll do a one in a life-time exception and will personally look into the issue... and then nothing... OP disappears... WTF? Someone realized it's better to lay low? (Disclaimer: if i did miss something then sorry, i retract my "subtle finger pointing") -------------------------- War. War never changes EvE Training Monitor / iMonitor / iCEO EvE iHelper
fuze	Posted - 2007.09.12 11:34:00 - [137] Originally by: CCP Prism X I will never be able to divulge information on how we differentiate between scammers and ISK sellers. Fair enough. As long as you keep questioning yourselves.
Jaedan Chantes Chantes Technologies	Posted - 2007.09.12 11:39:00 - [138] Originally by: RedLion I mean, how can people know it's illegal? It's not like everyone who install a software nowadays read all the wall of text in the installing process. I mean, if I didn't know buying isk was illegal and first lost my bought isk then the same amount additional, i would be pretty ****ed of. If you don't stop isk spam, you should not be so strict penalizing people who buy isk, because I believe there are people buying isk in good belief. though I have no idea how many people you penalize for buying isk compared to the real money of isk buyers.. I'm not necessarily supporting CCP's actions, but pleading ignorance is not a reason to get off the hook. Regardless of whether or not you actually read the EULA, you did click the "I Accept" button when you started playing EVE. And there are warnings: The MOTD box on the login screen says things about selling/buying ISk from time to time. This thread serves as a warning. And I'm sure there are warnings scattered throughout the website/forums.
pirategirl85	Posted - 2007.09.12 11:43:00 - [139] No. You cant risk punishing innoccent people just to persecute people who are doing things against the EULA.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.09.12 12:14:00 - [140] Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 12/09/2007 12:16:20 Originally by: pirategirl85 No. You cant risk punishing innoccent people just to persecute people who are doing things against the EULA. Yes. You can. And the only 'innocent' people who need worry are those who know they're treading a fine line anyway. And I still love that all the OP has to do is say he's innocent, and straight away he is in the public eye. And yet CCP say "we can re-look into it if you go through the right channels" and nobody buys it. Bloody sheep. Improve Market Competition!

Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.09.12 12:33:00 - [141] The base problem is: You have "dirty isk". You want to laundry it somehow. The obvious solution is to "fall" for a scam. Ah, stupid me. If GMs would ignore "dirty isk" which was transferred over "scams" it would be a 100% reliable way to wash it. Its about catching people trying to wash isk at all. The simply fact is that iskseller chars are little more than a isk relay station, They do not play the game. If you do not realyl do much at all and pretty much all of your transactions is "falling for scams"... well.

CCP PrismX	Posted - 2007.09.12 13:05:00 - [142] Originally by: Vrizuh Edited by: Vrizuh on 12/09/2007 04:13:21 Oh this is gonna be fun. PrismX and that female dev who does the drone regions are my fav devs. EDIT: more respectful If you're talking about my alternate personality as that female dev who does the drone regions then you are mistaken. I didn't do them, I just took interest in them afterwards. Then I noticed people were attributing female pronouns to me so I decided my Avatar had to change or I'd have to face the same comments and questions over and over again on the fanfest. I'm still awaiting information from the OP to be posted here. I cannot see any questions raised which I haven't already answered (and just because you ask them again in different ways doesn't mean I'm going to answer them differently) so we'll leave it at that. Damn I so miss this face. ~ Prism X Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006.

RedLion Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.12 14:33:00 - [143] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Quote: I don't know what logic CCP follows. But isn't it better to let 10 people go unpunished than punish an innocent person? Don't know about you, but I think it's better to punish those 10 people and risk that one is 'innocent' as you put, and undo any 'bad' you've done to that person if possible. In this sort of case, the 'bad' is easily undone. So yeah, it's better to punish 10 and sweep up someone who wasn't deserving of it in the process. Personally, I'm surprised that this topic is still going. I've caught up with what people are saying, and the only reason this could actually have been an ISK Buyer caught out has not been debunked. Once again, for anyone who read me making this claim eariler, I'm not going to post how you'd do it, because it's a step-by-step to breaching the EULA, if you don't realise how this could be done, you should probably think before you hit the reply button to this topic again. And until my private little theory is debunked, I'm not going to believe one bit of the "zomg ccp lining their own characters pockets" rubbish. It's against CCP's policies to reveal any investigation details, and the OP has no need to tell us the truth or otherwise, so everyone's hands are tied in terms of recieving a proper answer. Well ask yourself, what does the community gain from 10 isk buyers quitting EVE? We get a more active economy, we get more active players, etc.. Not punishing 10 players is not a big loss, compared to totally devastate a character. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The Gallenteans must be destroyed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.09.12 14:41:00 - [144] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: RedLion Dear Prism X (I hope you read this): I don't know what logic CCP follows. But isn't it better to let 10 people go unpunished than punish an innocent person? They don't punish inno-- aw forget it, this just isn't getting through to people. Christ. It is incredibly easy for farmers to frame people. All they have to do is deposit isk in your account - bam you're banned for isk buying. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.09.12 14:43:00 - [145] What does the EVE community get? Ten less people who destroy the spirit of the game, and one person who just needs to take a deep breath, follow the procedures which are pretty clear, get his stuff back and continue with the game, clear in the knowledge of how his actions may have been interpreted as being against the EULA, knowing not to tread that line again. And believe me, the more I think about it and look at what others are saying, the less and less this individual case seems like it's just "I sold a rattlesnake and the GM took my isk and ship for it" Improve Market Competition!

CCP Prism X	Posted - 2007.09.12 15:16:00 - [146] Originally by: Hllaxiu It is incredibly easy for farmers to frame people. All they have to do is deposit isk in your account - bam you're banned for isk buying. It is also incredibly easy to petition to our GMs in the lines of: Greetings dear GMs, <Insert character name> just sent me 10 billion ISKs for reasons unkown to me. I have a rather shady feeling about this because I've been a thorn in the eyes of ISK farmers/sellers for quite some time now and fear they might be framing me. I'd like to request a GM to look into the matter regarding this transaction. I'm alright with the ISKs in question being frozen while you are investigating this. Thank you, CCP Prism X Or alternatively: Dear GMs, I was recently banned for buying ISK. Although I understand this is a delicate matter to you I'd like to request a senior GM to look into my plea of innocence. The fact of the matter is that I've been popping ISK Farmers like mad since May 3rd of this year and I believe this is a frame job on their behalf to get rid of me. If you look into my case you'll hopefully notice that I never spent any of this ISK as I never managed to log on before I was banned (I suspect they probably notified you of my business with ISK sellers so you'd look into it immediately and ban me before I could react) so I never even got a chance to report the dubious transaction. Of course I have no objections to the illegal ISK being removed from my account but I would greatly appreciate my ban being lifted and perhaps my permanent record ammended. If there is any further information I can give to speed up this investigation I wont hesitate to provide it. Regards, CCP Prism X Or alternatively you can notice the extra money you got. Hopefully some alarms are raised in your head but you decide to spend it anyway at which point you will possibly get a ban in accordance to the amount you received and, at the very least, all the illicit ISK revoked from your account. It is quite possible that even than you can claim ignorance and cite the possible reason for this frame-up job and hope for the best, but after spending blood money I can't make any promises as to your innocence being provable. After all, if I'd give you $10k for no reason, you are to report it to the IRS the very least.. and personaly I'd check each and every bill for being a forgery but that's because I've been burnt myself enough on not covering all my bases, thrice, so I've grown rather paranoid. ~ Prism X Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006.

Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 15:42:00 - [147] Quote: I cannot see any questions raised which I haven't already answered (and just because you ask them again in different ways doesn't mean I'm going to answer them differently) so we'll leave it at that. So basically everyone that have a hard time recognizing isk-sellers and either scams or make high margin deals will be risking getting their wallets erased and will have a hard time getting it back. I think I understand, but I definitely donÆt agree.
Mesacc Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.12 16:01:00 - [148] So let me get this straight. If I sell the veld in my hanger that I been mining over the last month and it gets bought by someone with isk that came from a credit seller, will I get banned? If I sell through contract? Market? Both? If so, im just gonna sit on the stuff for a while till this crap gets straightend out. I shouldent be banned for somthing out of my control. I know you can petition and get them to look into it further, but they should really look into it further and get all the facts before the swing the ban stick.
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.09.12 16:12:00 - [149] Edited by: Ki Tarra on 12/09/2007 16:15:17 Originally by: Cpt Fina Quote: I cannot see any questions raised which I haven't already answered (and just because you ask them again in different ways doesn't mean I'm going to answer them differently) so we'll leave it at that. So basically everyone that have a hard time recognizing isk-sellers and either scams or make high margin deals will be risking getting their wallets erased and will have a hard time getting it back. I think I understand, but I definitely donÆt agree. Did you read the above post? I just finished issuing a bond, raising 2.5 billion ISK from various investors. Now what if one of them was an ISK seller. Do I fear that a GM is going to ban my accounts, or seize my ISK. No! If CCP finds that some of that money is dirty there are several very simple routes to take. First they could seize the shares bought with that dirty ISK, then once the dividends are paid out the dirty ISK would be effectively removed from the game. Second they could return the shares, which I could then sell to a legitamate investor. Now suppose that my intentions were to scam my investors out of that healthy sum. All I need to do is file a petition along the lines of: Dear GM, I have just screwed all the people out of a health chuck of ISK. Could you please verify that there will be no problems with my keeping it as I would not want to tant my hard earned ISK with any dirty blood money, Thank you. I doubt that there is anyone out there who is seriously pulling the multi billion ISK scams on a regular basis. When a scam works, and the scammer wants to be in the clear, they only need to get a backgorund check done on the victum. Unlike other games, in this one, proper scams are GM approved. Originally by: Mesacc So let me get this straight. If I sell the veld in my hanger that I been mining over the last month and it gets bought by someone with isk that came from a credit seller, will I find -$ in my account? If I sell through contract? Market? Both? Not if it is sold for anything even remotely close to market value. Sell it for 10x profit, not a problem. Sell 1 unit for 1 billion ISK, petition the buyer for a background check before you spend it. Is that really so hard to understand. ************************** Ki Tech Industries - Bond Offer
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 16:12:00 - [150] Heh, anyone else around when like 150 people ate a ban in SWG for getting credits given to them for no reason? Buncha people were banned for weeks because a few people had illicitly gained credits and were giving them to people as 'gifts' or supposed goodwill gestures to newbies. Honestly, if someone in eve tossed me 1 bil I wouldn't do much aside from maybe contact them and say thanks, and asked why I deserved such a tip. Heck, in the past I've gotten a 50+mil bit of ISK given to me by a stranger when I was a n00b. Now I guess instead of playing the game I get to spend my time second guessing where every ISK I acquire comes from, and worrying whether or not any market orders I put up get filled by ISK farmers or not.

Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.09.12 16:15:00 - [151] Originally by: Mesacc Edited by: Mesacc on 12/09/2007 16:12:04 So let me get this straight. If I sell the veld in my hanger that I been mining over the last month and it gets bought by someone with isk that came from a credit seller, will I find -$ in my account? If I sell through contract? Market? Both? If you sell your one unit of trit for one billion credits :P Seriously,, the over-hyping this is getting. Quick ladies and gentlemen, grab your pitchforks and torches! Christ,,,, Improve Market Competition!
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.09.12 16:20:00 - [152] Originally by: Grawshellar Heh, anyone else around when like 150 people ate a ban in SWG for getting credits given to them for no reason? Buncha people were banned for weeks because a few people had illicitly gained credits and were giving them to people as 'gifts' or supposed goodwill gestures to newbies. Honestly, if someone in eve tossed me 1 bil I wouldn't do much aside from maybe contact them and say thanks, and asked why I deserved such a tip. Heck, in the past I've gotten a 50+mil bit of ISK given to me by a stranger when I was a n00b. Now I guess instead of playing the game I get to spend my time second guessing where every ISK I acquire comes from, and worrying whether or not any market orders I put up get filled by ISK farmers or not. Good will gestures measure in the millions maybe 10's of millions. ISK sellers deal in the 100's of millions or billions. We are talking about 1 or 2 orders of magnatude difference in the vary least. It is really not hard to tell the difference. If someone gave you 1 billion for no reason, then you would be stupid not to petition them if you intend to spend that ISK. If someone gave you 50 million out of the kindness of their heart, you have nothing to fear. Just like Prism's example. It is the difference between finding $100 on the side of the road and finding $10,000. The first you keep, the second you report. ************************** Ki Tech Industries - Bond Offer
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 16:21:00 - [153] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs If you sell your one unit of trit for one billion credits :P Seriously,, the over-hyping this is getting. Quick ladies and gentlemen, grab your pitchforks and torches! Christ,,,, It's due to the fact that the potential for abuse is staggering. step 1: Go to friends house that doesn't play eve, set up a trial account with a fishy sounding email. step 2: Buy ISK from a website. step 3: Once you recieve it tip it to someone you dislike. step 4: Repeat 3 days later. Boom, someone gets a permaban or 2 marks to their account at the least, except in the very unlikely event that they report getting a gift of 100mil from someone, where most people would probably just smile and buy a shiny new BS instead of worrying over the ISKs true origin.
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.09.12 16:21:00 - [154] Edited by: Ki Tarra on 12/09/2007 16:24:02 Originally by: Grawshellar Originally by: Kylar Renpurs If you sell your one unit of trit for one billion credits :P Seriously,, the over-hyping this is getting. Quick ladies and gentlemen, grab your pitchforks and torches! Christ,,,, It's due to the fact that the potential for abuse is staggering. step 1: Go to friends house that doesn't play eve, set up a trial account with a fishy sounding email. step 2: Buy ISK from a website. step 3: Once you recieve it tip it to someone you dislike. step 4: Repeat 3 days later. Boom, someone gets a permaban or 2 marks to their account at the least, except in the very unlikely event that they report getting a gift of 100mil from someone, where most people would probably just smile and buy a shiny new BS instead of worrying over the ISKs true origin. So how much real money are you willing to spend to ban your enemies? ************************** Ki Tech Industries - Bond Offer
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 16:23:00 - [155] Edited by: Grawshellar on 12/09/2007 16:25:16 Originally by: Ki Tarra If someone gave you 1 billion for no reason, then you would be stupid not to petition them if you intend to spend that ISK. If someone gave you 50 million out of the kindness of their heart, you have nothing to fear. The biggest problem being that there is no guideline for this sort of thing, and 90% of the playerbase doesn't read the forums. I can just see the tutorial now: "And remember, be suspicious of any large donations from other players! Please report any ISK donations in excess of X number of ISK promptly!" Would definitely set the mood for a pleasant gaming experience, eh?
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 16:23:00 - [156] Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: Cpt Fina Quote: I cannot see any questions raised which I haven't already answered (and just because you ask them again in different ways doesn't mean I'm going to answer them differently) so we'll leave it at that. So basically everyone that have a hard time recognizing isk-sellers and either scams or make high margin deals will be risking getting their wallets erased and will have a hard time getting it back. I think I understand, but I definitely donÆt agree. Did you read the above post? I just finished issuing a bond, raising 2.5 billion ISK from various investors. Now what if one of them was an ISK seller. Do I fear that a GM is going to ban my accounts, or seize my ISK. No! If CCP finds that some of that money is dirty there are several very simple routes to take. First they could seize the shares bought with that dirty ISK, then once the dividends are paid out the dirty ISK would be effectively removed from the game. Second they could return the shares, which I could then sell to a legitamate investor. Now suppose that my intentions were to scam my investors out of that healthy sum. All I need to do is file a petition along the lines of: Dear GM, I have just screwed all the people out of a health chuck of ISK. Could you please verify that there will be no problems with my keeping it as I would not want to tant my hard earned ISK with any dirty blood money, Thank you. I doubt that there is anyone out there who is seriously pulling the multi billion ISK scams on a regular basis. When a scam works, and the scammer wants to be in the clear, they only need to get a backgorund check done on the victum. Unlike other games, in this one, proper scams are GM approved. Did YOU read the above posts? The only guidelines provided are that we should use common sense regarding prices and avoid isk-sellers. Now how does my post contradict that statement? I donÆt really care what you say that you think CCP are going to do when a Dev clearly has stated the vague procedures one can follow to minimize the risk.
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 16:29:00 - [157] Originally by: Ki Tarra So how much real money are you willing to spend to ban your enemies? I really haven't ever had the opportunity to make many enemies, mostly due to the fact that I enjoy getting blown up when taking on impossible fights :P But with the level of meta-gaming that goes on I'm sure that it would be a possibility for someone. If people are willing to commit crimes (ie hacking) to get information, how much would they pay to get an enemy titan pilot baned?
Brock McF Caldari Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2007.09.12 16:29:00 - [158] Firstly, I would like to point out any discussion about the matter at hand with no experience dealing with a similar incident is quite invalid and pointless. Like I said before the masses will always assume you are wrong, simple. I support Prism 100% here, the OP needs to prove his case. I will repeat myself once more, if you prove your case you will most likely get justice. Give him a chance people. What most are squabbling about is whether or not CCP should take isk first before verifying the account is innocent, and in most cases this method works. Of course there are those instances where they mess up, Hence we have a GM trying to help. What is interesting is it always seems these issues arise because of someones lack of communication, GM or Player. Brock
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.09.12 16:35:00 - [159] Edited by: Ki Tarra on 12/09/2007 16:36:40 Originally by: Cpt Fina Did YOU read the above posts? The only guidelines provided are that we should use common sense regarding prices and avoid isk-sellers. Now how does my post contradict that statement? I donÆt really care what you say that you think CCP are going to do when a Dev clearly has stated the vague procedures one can follow to minimize the risk. If you are so short on common sence that you cannot tell the difference between the two I will give you a number. Any dubious transaction over 95 million should be reported. Does that make you happy? Oh now you are sure to have problems telling the difference between dubious and practical transactions. Do you need a profit margin now. How about any profit margin of 300%? It is not like there are a lot of opportunities in empire space for 300% profit that could possibly be mistaken with ISK trade. How much hand holding do you people need? Prism has offered to personally investigate the claim of misapplied justice. The OP has disappeared, and no body else can bring forth specifics. Quote: "How much pain they have cost us, the evils which have never happened." --Thomas Jefferson What part of the appeals process has you confussed. Where is any indication that the appeals process has failed. Please site just one example. I am sure that Prism doesn't care if it was the OP's case or anyone elses. Just give us ONE case where the appeals process has failed to find the innocent to be innocent. Until we see that one case, we are in the relm of Thomas Jeffersons quote. ************************** Ki Tech Industries - Bond Offer
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 16:45:00 - [160] Originally by: Ki Tarra Quote: "How much pain they have cost us, the evils which have never happened." --Thomas Jefferson What part of the appeals process has you confussed. Where is any indication that the appeals process has failed. Please site just one example. I am sure that Prism doesn't care if it was the OP's case or anyone elses. Just give us ONE case where the appeals process has failed to find the innocent to be innocent. Until we see that one case, we are in the relm of Thomas Jeffersons quote. Not that I really feel that there are many, if any, banning of innocents, but wouldn't the victim of an unfair ban be unable to prove his innocence, and also unable to speak of it on this board? Seeing as they would be banned :P

Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 17:07:00 - [161] Edited by: Cpt Fina on 12/09/2007 17:15:04 Originally by: Ki Tarra Edited by: Ki Tarra on 12/09/2007 16:36:40 Originally by: Cpt Fina Did YOU read the above posts? The only guidelines provided are that we should use common sense regarding prices and avoid isk-sellers. Now how does my post contradict that statement? I donÆt really care what you say that you think CCP are going to do when a Dev clearly has stated the vague procedures one can follow to minimize the risk. If you are so short on common sence that you cannot tell the difference between the two I will give you a number. Any dubious transaction over 95 million should be reported. Does that make you happy? Oh now you are sure to have problems telling the difference between dubious and practical transactions. Do you need a profit margin now. How about any profit margin of 300%? It is not like there are a lot of opportunities in empire space for 300% profit that could possibly be mistaken with ISK trade. How much hand holding do you people need? Yes, now that you've given me numbers that you just made up I feel much more comfortable. There's allot of scams that exceeds 95 million, 101% of them if youÆre to trust my imaginary statistics just as you wanted me to trust yours. Quote: How about any profit margin of 300%? How about any profit above 1000% or 20%? Again, your made-up numbers wonÆt help me back up my case when CCP comes knocking on my door. You can keep on following your set of rules (which iÆm not saying is wrong but just havenÆt been confirmed). That doesnÆt mean that CCP might remove your isk and say that ôcommon senseö wouldÆve told you that any deal over 25 mil with a margin greater than 100% should be considered dubious. People make multibillion transactions on a daily basis, investing years of hard earned ISK. You don't see why they would've want a set of guidelines to minimize the risk of getting their ISK removed? Quote: Just give us ONE case where the appeals process has failed to find the innocent to be innocent. The problem isn't that innocent people are getting punished. The problem is that it's too hard to avoid fulfilling CCP's criteria of being a guilty person.
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.09.12 17:08:00 - [162] Originally by: Grawshellar Originally by: Ki Tarra Quote: "How much pain they have cost us, the evils which have never happened." --Thomas Jefferson What part of the appeals process has you confussed. Where is any indication that the appeals process has failed. Please site just one example. I am sure that Prism doesn't care if it was the OP's case or anyone elses. Just give us ONE case where the appeals process has failed to find the innocent to be innocent. Until we see that one case, we are in the relm of Thomas Jeffersons quote. Not that I really feel that there are many, if any, banning of innocents, but wouldn't the victim of an unfair ban be unable to prove his innocence, and also unable to speak of it on this board? Seeing as they would be banned :P Do you have any examples where an person protests his innocence against GM action taken because of suspected ISK-RMT. This person must also have followed the estallation process all the way through to IA. Have this person step forward and offer to be a case study and we will see if Prism will transfer his one time offer since the OP has disappeared. If not we are still dealing with theoretical worst case senarios. Worst possible case is that there is some idiot out there who is so deprived of cognative ability that they set themselves up to appear to be purchasing ISK in every possible way, and have no viable explaination for the transactions that mysteriously appear in his favor. Then ya, he might get punished for something he didn't do. Such a person, due to his complete lack of cognative ability, would not be creditable within the commmunity, so appeals to the forums would also be useless. Then again such intellegence deficient persons are not likely to be missed either. As for their in ablility to communicate with the community due to a ban. There are many cases where such outcries have been voiced on the forums. CCP has in the past proven them selves capable of handling such cases in a professional manner. If you know of such a person, please present the details for review in this thread. ************************** Ki Tech Industries - Bond Offer
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.09.12 17:15:00 - [163] Edited by: Ki Tarra on 12/09/2007 17:16:52 Originally by: Cpt Fina People make multibillion transactions on a daily basis, investing years of hard earned ISK. You don't see why they would've want a set of guidelines to minimize the risk of getting their ISK removed? Those who make multibillion ISK transactions do so because they have the common sense and business savy to get multi-billions. They are not likely to fall victum to accusations of ISK purchasing, due to their abundant supply of common sense. I am not going to try and guess whether or not you have suffience common sense to work your way into the multibillion ISK crowd. Time will tell. In the mean while those numbers that I provided, should keep those who lack the intellegence to put together such large sums, safe from false accusations. We keep talking about theorectic senarios. Give us one real world senario. Please, just one. ************************** Ki Tech Industries - Bond Offer
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 17:20:00 - [164] Edited by: Grawshellar on 12/09/2007 17:24:01 Edited by: Grawshellar on 12/09/2007 17:22:43 Originally by: Ki Tarra We keep talking about theorectic senarios. Give us one real world senario. Please, just one. The nature of CCPs system is such that no one can realistically do this. People eat a ban, they can no longer discuss what happens. CCP doesn't release the information. This is pretty simple: 1.) Unless the person themselves personally experienced this, then its hearsay secondhand, thus not a good example. 2.) If the person experienced this, they can't post here to give their own scenario as an example. If you're just looking for a secondhand account the OP seems to feel he has one. His lack of response seems to imply that maybe he's not as confident in his information now that a higher-up has offered to look into it though :P EDIT: Also, I don't know 99.5% of the players in this game. Saying something didn't happen because you haven't seen it seems pretty silly :P Obviously protests of innocence happens enough that there is a system in place to deal with them, and obviously there have been enough false bannings to warrant such a system. From there is is such a large jump to say there has likely been a false banning, or mroe then one? FRUTEHR EDIT: Furthermore, me coming forward with one such example and having Prism disprove it doesn't mean jack, you can't examine one case and conclude from it that all such cases must be similar.
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.09.12 17:30:00 - [165] Edited by: Ki Tarra on 12/09/2007 17:35:29 Originally by: Grawshellar If you're just looking for a secondhand account the OP seems to feel he has one. His lack of response seems to imply that maybe he's not as confident in his information now that a higher-up has offered to look into it though :P I will accept second hand, provided that a character name is specified, and that the information is infact second hand and not third, forth, etc... Like you said, the OP doesn't seem so confident now with an offer for an open review. Maybe now he sees the real reason for CCP's privacy policy. It is not to protect CCP, it is to protect the players. Would you really want your guilt made public? Give the reason that Prism gave for offering to do an open review, I bet he would transfer his one time offer to anyone who stepped forward, just as a one time case study that everyone could reference to see the next time a thread like this starts up. As yet, there has not been anyone who has stood by there claim in an open review. Everytime some has claimed that they were wronged due to an GM ruling regarding ISK purchasing, either they have not followed the escallation path, or they did something outside the standard frame work that voided their innocence. We now have an opportunity to prove otherwise, but nobody is coming forward. Edit - this topic comes up often. You are right that the one test of a claim doesn't prove much. However, the complete lack of even one case where someone has been unjustly conficted and appeals disregarded, and further review by the community to back their innocence does say something about CCP. Everytime someone makes a claim like this, it always seems to end with a oops the OP screwed up or didn't bother to appeal through proper channels. ************************** Ki Tech Industries - Bond Offer
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 17:33:00 - [166] Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: Cpt Fina People make multibillion transactions on a daily basis, investing years of hard earned ISK. You don't see why they would've want a set of guidelines to minimize the risk of getting their ISK removed? Those who make multibillion ISK transactions do so because they have the common sense and business savy to get multi-billions. They are not likely to fall victum to accusations of ISK purchasing, due to their abundant supply of common sense. I am not going to try and guess whether or not you have suffience common sense to work your way into the multibillion ISK crowd. Time will tell. Common sense - the unreflective opinions of ordinary men Webster's English Dictionary Mark "oppinionS" as in plural, as in several, as in not one single opinion. Or maybe you just became the measure stick of what common sense is and Webster's English Dictionary just haven't had time to update their definition. People's oppinion about what is and what isn't common sense about prices and margins WILL vary, unlike CCP's who use their own definition which they won't share. Neither time nor me will tell wether i'm in the "multibillion ISK crowd" or not but your assumtion that the multi-billionaires share the same oppinion on where to draw the lines for "dubious deals" are as over-confident as it is made up. Quote: We keep talking about theorectic senarios. Give us one real world senario. Please, just one. As i posted before: The problem isn't that innocent people are getting punished. The problem is that it's too hard to avoid fulfilling CCP's criteria of being a guilty person.
Silack	Posted - 2007.09.12 17:34:00 - [167] Ah but CCP dont do anything to get rid of isk farmers do they. They just hit the player rightly or wrongly for buying just to pay this game....the isk seller get off scott free. At present I sell ETC and am just waiting for them to remove isk from my wallet as the last 9 I sold went to someone from china. Now if they do that then who are the theives???? In my opion CCP are as corrupt as hell and make the rules to suit them.. For instance when have you ever heard them give a straight answer? errrr never. When do they show any logs of game crashes, who buy what and when....errr never. So in essance CCP dictate the players as to what they can or cant do....who dictates to CCP.. I wait the day when some one sues CCP for breach of their own EULA. So to round it up play the game and earn ISK and then wait for ccp to steal all you hard earned and honest isk right from under your nose and there is not a damn thing we can do about it , until there is someone scrutinising CCP Silack (only plays the game as there is **** all on tv)
An Anarchyyt Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.09.12 17:35:00 - [168] Originally by: Cpt Fina Common sense - the unreflective opinions of ordinary men Webster's English Dictionary Actually, according to Merriam-Webster, common sense is defined as: Main Entry: common sense Function: noun Date: 1726 : sound and prudent judgment based on a simple perception of the situation or facts Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Alois Hammer Minmatar Hammers Slammers Slammer's Republic	Posted - 2007.09.12 17:35:00 - [169] i ate a loss because i sold some GTC"s to an "known ISK seller" the end result i got for complaining was a pat on the head , loss of 500 mill and "you should have known better" , email. now im exceptionally leery of selling a bloody unit of trit due to the loss you can incurr. and complainng does zip. zippity zip zip zip. you acutaly bite real-money loss and theres nothing you can do about it . personally as a real-life corporation you get a serious legal hassle if someone takes money out of your account for no reasons that can be justified . its called theft . simple. for that there are laws that govern cases like that. they are not dependant upon a individuals whim and calls. we are at the mercy of the GM"s. as such you could lose a ton of work to someones bad coffe-day , or get a slap on the wrist and a pat on the back of the head , leaving you in a hole that could take months to get out of. my 3 cents
Nicola Sardonicus	Posted - 2007.09.12 17:37:00 - [170] Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: Grawshellar Heh, anyone else around when like 150 people ate a ban in SWG for getting credits given to them for no reason? Buncha people were banned for weeks because a few people had illicitly gained credits and were giving them to people as 'gifts' or supposed goodwill gestures to newbies. Honestly, if someone in eve tossed me 1 bil I wouldn't do much aside from maybe contact them and say thanks, and asked why I deserved such a tip. Heck, in the past I've gotten a 50+mil bit of ISK given to me by a stranger when I was a n00b. Now I guess instead of playing the game I get to spend my time second guessing where every ISK I acquire comes from, and worrying whether or not any market orders I put up get filled by ISK farmers or not. Good will gestures measure in the millions maybe 10's of millions. ISK sellers deal in the 100's of millions or billions. We are talking about 1 or 2 orders of magnatude difference in the vary least. It is really not hard to tell the difference. If someone gave you 1 billion for no reason, then you would be stupid not to petition them if you intend to spend that ISK. If someone gave you 50 million out of the kindness of their heart, you have nothing to fear. Just like Prism's example. It is the difference between finding $100 on the side of the road and finding $10,000. The first you keep, the second you report. ____________________________________ No good deed goes unpunished.

Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 17:38:00 - [171] Originally by: Ki Tarra I will accept second hand, provided that a character name is specified, and that the information is infact second hand and not third, forth, etc... Like you said, the OP doesn't seem so confident now with an offer for an open review. Maybe now he sees the real reason for CCP's privacy policy. It is not to protect CCP, it is to protect the players. Would you really want your guilt made public? Give the reason that Prism gave for offering to do an open review, I bet he would transfer his one time offer to anyone who stepped forward, just as a one time case study that everyone could reference to see the next time a thread like this starts up. As yet, there has not been anyone who has stood by there claim in an open review. Everytime some has claimed that they were wronged due to an GM ruling regarding ISK purchasing, either they have not followed the escallation path, or they did something outside the standard frame work that voided their innocence. We now have an opportunity to prove otherwise, but nobody is coming forward. People wrongly banned are unlikely to visit here to know that their friend has a chance to plead their case, and the fact that the majority of players don't bother to read the occasional random thread on the board makes this unlikely. I'd be more interested to hear CCP Prisms' opinion on the possibility of unwarranted bans, or of past bans that were only caught much after the fact due to circumstances. I doubt that he would be able to say much though, which I would consider telling. Seriously, IRL courts convict and JAIL people for life wrongfully, you seriously think that the gm team bats 100%? You're quite the optimist :P
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.09.12 17:40:00 - [172] Originally by: Cpt Fina The problem is that it's too hard to avoid fulfilling CCP's criteria of being a guilty person. Please back this claim up with any real world example. You make a claim, back it up. My claim that it is easy to avoid the critria of being guilty when innocent is currently backed by a well established appeals process that has to date not left a single case open for public review where someone that was falsely accused did not have the ruling overturned in the appeals process. ************************** Ki Tech Industries - Bond Offer
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.09.12 17:42:00 - [173] Edited by: Ki Tarra on 12/09/2007 17:42:37 Originally by: Alois Hammer i ate a loss because i sold some GTC"s to an "known ISK seller" Are you offering yourself as an example? In your transaction with the known ISK seller did you use the secure GTC trade method? ************************** Ki Tech Industries - Bond Offer
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 17:44:00 - [174] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: Cpt Fina Common sense - the unreflective opinions of ordinary men Webster's English Dictionary Actually, according to Merriam-Webster, common sense is defined as: Main Entry: common sense Function: noun Date: 1726 : sound and prudent judgment based on a simple perception of the situation or facts Above states what it is based on, not who or how many that can be the judge of common sense.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.09.12 17:45:00 - [175] Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: Cpt Fina Common sense - the unreflective opinions of ordinary men Webster's English Dictionary Actually, according to Merriam-Webster, common sense is defined as: Main Entry: common sense Function: noun Date: 1726 : sound and prudent judgment based on a simple perception of the situation or facts Above states what it is based on, not who or how many that can be the judge of common sense. You said Webster's Dictionary, that is the definition from Webster's Dictionary. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:01:00 - [176] Edited by: Cpt Fina on 12/09/2007 18:06:29 Edited by: Cpt Fina on 12/09/2007 18:04:39 What, you're not going to respond on the other part of my post? Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: Cpt Fina The problem is that it's too hard to avoid fulfilling CCP's criteria of being a guilty person. Please back this claim up with any real world example. You make a claim, back it up. I back it up with from game developer CCP Prismx's post earlier in this thread which makes it clear that common sense is a (and almost the only given) guideline that we should follow. Quote: My claim that it is easy to avoid the critria of being guilty when innocent is currently backed by a well established appeals process that has to date not left a single case open for public review where someone that was falsely accused did not have the ruling overturned in the appeals process. Well then our opinions on how easy it is to fulfil the criteria of being considered incautious, which apparently is the crime of the guilty players, differ. I think that the fact that every player that have a hard time recognizing isk-sellers and are in the scamming business/high margin profit trader, will be considered as incautious (and thus will have a hard time proving their innocence) by CCP, is wrong. You seem not to. Judging by this thread other do. Originally by: An Anarchyyt You said Webster's Dictionary, that is the definition from Webster's Dictionary. Yes, I did
Arii Smith Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:04:00 - [177] I am sure this has been mentioned already but... What are the "known ISK sellers" doing with their accounts still? If they are known to be a seller why can they log in, much less buy anything!?
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:14:00 - [178] Edited by: Ki Tarra on 12/09/2007 18:16:16 Originally by: Arii Smith I am sure this has been mentioned already but... What are the "known ISK sellers" doing with their accounts still? If they are known to be a seller why can they log in, much less buy anything!? When they become a "known ISK seller" their accounts are closed. They then track transaction out from there. The ISK seller was not known to CCP at the time of the transaction. However, due to the nature of the transaction it would appear to CCP that the recipient of the ISK did know that it was from an ISK seller. The appeals process is in place to handle exceptions. Originally by: Cpt Fina Yes, I did Would it helped if I did a find/replace in my earlier post to change it to the definition found on the official merriam-websters website, as that is the definition that I was using the phase based on. ************************** Ki Tech Industries - Bond Offer
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:19:00 - [179] Just a question, when did "ways to avoid getting wrongfully banned" come under the heading of common sense? Thats similar to assuming that "ways not to get framed" is common sense. Not something that enough people are concerned with the really fit in that category in my opinion.
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:23:00 - [180] Edited by: Ki Tarra on 12/09/2007 18:25:07 Originally by: Grawshellar Thats similar to assuming that "ways not to get framed" is common sense. How about ways to not look like your laundering drug money as common sense. Don't know a lot of real life people who are wrongfully convicted of laundering drug money and the real life justice system is much less forgiving than the appeals process in place with CCP. It real doesn't take that much to stay out of trouble. Even when you are walking on the darkside of the line. ************************** Ki Tech Industries - Bond Offer

Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:26:00 - [181] Originally by: Ki Tarra How about ways to not look like your laundering drug money as common sense. Don't know a lot of real life people who are wrongfully conficted of laundering drug money and the real life justice system is much less forgiving than the appeals process in place with CCP. I'm screwed, how do I avoid looking like I'm laundering drug money in real life? Still, knowing that the justice system doesn't bat 100%, why are you so adamant in assuming that CCP does? Is the investigations into ISK sellers more thorough? Are CCP investigators more competent then criminal investigators?
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:28:00 - [182] Edited by: Cpt Fina on 12/09/2007 18:28:27 Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: Cpt Fina Yes, I did Would it helped if I did a find/replace in my earlier post to change it to the definition found on the official merriam-websters website, as that is the definition that I was using the phase based on. Don't change much as every man is fit to make their own "sound and prudent judgment" of a given situation which would result in several different opinions of what common sense is. But, I am not going to try and guess whether or not you have suffience common sense to grasp that.
Jelek Coro Caldari Ordo Templi Orientis Daikoku Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:29:00 - [183] at the op. Also a big at the peeps taking his word... known isk sellers... Soo many people ask the wrong questions... how about where a certain player got the rattlesnake from... Was the certain player give the rattlesnake with the intent to sell it back... Just
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:32:00 - [184] Originally by: Grawshellar Originally by: Ki Tarra How about ways to not look like your laundering drug money as common sense. Don't know a lot of real life people who are wrongfully conficted of laundering drug money and the real life justice system is much less forgiving than the appeals process in place with CCP. I'm screwed, how do I avoid looking like I'm laundering drug money in real life? Still, knowing that the justice system doesn't bat 100%, why are you so adamant in assuming that CCP does? Is the investigations into ISK sellers more thorough? Are CCP investigators more competent then criminal investigators? CCP doesn't bat at 100%, but with 3 or 4 swings, not alot of innocents are going to get hurt. More of a problem is that too many of the guilty will get away. I am still having a hard time understanding where the paranoia about having your stuff taken by a GM comes from. I really don't understand you fear. Of course they can take it all away, but why would they, if there was any reasonable doubt that you were a victum and not a cheat. ************************** Ki Tech Industries - Bond Offer

CCP Prism X	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:33:00 - [185] These are not 'Ways to not get framed' but 'What to do if you do get framed' protocols. Of course we don't allow known ISK sellers to roam EVE. They're know. They're banned. Of course we're not going to trim our customer base by banning people we're not 100% certain did something bad. Of course we can't guarantee omniscience. Of course we're not going to ban you for selling Veldspar. Of course we're not going to ban you or remove any ISK from you if an ISK buyer buys stuff from you with bad ISK.. unless the transaction is in the direction of 1 Veldspar for half a billion. Of course we are going to ban you for selling 1 unit of Veldspar for half a billion ISK to a known ISK seller. Of course there are no magic numbers for when a transaction becomes suspect. You're implying that the numbers are the only thing that matters. We wouldn't need GMs then, I'd write a script which would eventually ban you all and I'd have to find a new job. We have GMs because of the human factor. We need their intuition. With this intuition comes the so called 'Human Nature' which is flawed which leads us to doing mistakes even when our intentions are angelic. That's the fact of the matter: We don't do mistakes intentionally. I can't promise, on the behalf of others, that they'll become perfect human beings just because mistakes are unacceptable to those who never make them. Instead CCP offers you senior GMs and Internal Affairs and Devs like me who are almost ready to answer the same questions ad infinitum. But now I grow tierd of soothing the hysteria. My offer to the OP stands but I will not respond here again. I'm only human aswell, flawed by nature, and can only take so much. ~ Prism X Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006.

Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:36:00 - [186] Originally by: Ki Tarra CCP doesn't bat at 100%, but with 3 or 4 swings, not alot of innocents are going to get hurt. More of a problem is that too many of the guilty will get away. I am still having a hard time understanding where the paranoia about having your stuff taken by a GM comes from. I really don't understand you fear. Of course they can take it all away, but why would they, if there was any reasonable doubt that you were a victum and not a cheat. I, personal, am protected by the best system known to man against this sort of issue. I am dirt poor, I don't have 2 ISK to rub together 99.9% of the time. However, you're adamant denial that CCP could ever make a mistake across the last what, 4 pages, led me to seek an admission that there is a possibility of an error. The reason people are afraid is simple: 1.) People have stuff they earned. 2.) People like to keep stuff they earned. 3.) Story pops up where supposedly someone had their rightfully earned stuff taken away. 4.) OMG sky is falling!11!! They might take my stuff too!
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:43:00 - [187] Originally by: CCP Prism X My offer to the OP stands but I will not respond here again. I'm only human aswell, flawed by nature, and can only take so much. Sorry Prism, server down so arguing silly points is an entertaining way to pass the time, not trying to make it personal against CCP, you guys have always seemed to handle situations with more care then most other companies.
Reece'Urchin Uno	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:49:00 - [188] Originally by: CCP Prism X Of course we are going to ban you for selling 1 unit of Veldspar for half a billion ISK to a known ISK seller. I've done similar things to this. It a great profession to abuse idiots who don't check the market transaction boxes. So if I continue using this way to make isk, and it just so happens an isk seller mucks up and buys my extremely overpriced item, I'm going to get banned?
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:52:00 - [189] Grawshellar I am glad that you are content. I can understand how the parania could spread if there was a solid claim, for GM misconduct. The problem I have is the number of vague accusations where the accusers disappear as soon as there is any offer to investigate. If Alois Hammer would come back and stand his ground, I would jump to the other side of the fence if his claims showed themselves to be valid. However, given the huge number of false and unsupported claims that I have seen, I remain sceptical until the full story is presented, as time and time again, an obvios mistake comes up on the side of the player. Be it using the insecure GTC trades, taking an offer than must be too good to be true, or not bothering to escalate through the proper channels, the mistake has in my experience always been on the part of the player. I don't always agree with the GM's decisions. There where many calls in the tourney that I didn't like, but I can understand them, but there they did not really have the time or opportunity for a full appeals process, and I expect that they have learnt from their mistakes. With RTM cases, there is plenty of time to handle multiple investigations and appeals. I doubt there are is significant risk of serious problems in that area. ************************** Ki Tech Industries - Bond Offer
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:59:00 - [190] Edited by: Grawshellar on 12/09/2007 18:59:09 Yeah, wouldn't even have said much, but watched IRL as a friend ate a ban in another game for no reason, with all appeals failing. Since then the assumption that there are never mistakes made on any game owners part doesn't sit too well with me.

Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 19:05:00 - [191] Originally by: CCP Prism X We don't do mistakes intentionally. I can't promise, on the behalf of others, that they'll become perfect human beings just because mistakes are unacceptable to those who never make them. Don't worry, with the blurry guidelines given you'd probably never have to admit comitting a mistake in this matter and GMs will have a very liberal definition of offenders to apply.
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 19:07:00 - [192] Edited by: Grawshellar on 12/09/2007 19:07:50 Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: CCP Prism X We don't do mistakes intentionally. I can't promise, on the behalf of others, that they'll become perfect human beings just because mistakes are unacceptable to those who never make them. Don't worry, with the blurry guidelines given you'd probably never have to admit comitting a mistake in this matter and GMs will have a very liberal definition of offenders to apply. Thats awesome, the way someone hangs their head and you keep kicking them in the ribs like that, can I get lessons
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 19:13:00 - [193] Originally by: Grawshellar Edited by: Grawshellar on 12/09/2007 19:07:50 Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: CCP Prism X We don't do mistakes intentionally. I can't promise, on the behalf of others, that they'll become perfect human beings just because mistakes are unacceptable to those who never make them. Don't worry, with the blurry guidelines given you'd probably never have to admit comitting a mistake in this matter and GMs will have a very liberal definition of offenders to apply. Thats awesome, the way someone hangs their head and you keep kicking them in the ribs like that, can I get lessons PrismX offered to help the OP, which is great. However, he didn't show any willingness to address this issue which he referred to as "hysteria". That really makes me feel that IÆm being taken seriously and with respect. Even though Prismx isn't going to read this thread anymore doesn't mean that the subjectis obsolete.
Epong Private Military Company	Posted - 2007.09.12 19:17:00 - [194] Originally by: CCP Prism X ...Of course we're not going to ban you for selling Veldspar... 1)Thx god... 2)Why not... - Bad girl +5 and Sarcasm +5
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 19:17:00 - [195] Originally by: Cpt Fina PrismX offered to help the OP, which is great. However, he didn't show any willingness to address this issue which he referred to as "hysteria". That really makes me feel that IÆm being taken seriously and with respect. Even though Prismx isn't going to read this thread anymore doesn't mean that the subjectis obsolete. He came right out and said that they have guidelines to differentiate between ISK sellers and scammers. He said there are checks in place to prevent wrongful banning to the best of their abilities. He also said he couldn't disclose much information so as to avoid giving the ISK sellers too much information. I don't know what else he could do, at this point you either take it on faith that they care enough to be careful to avoid wrongful banning, or you don't. It's pretty much that simple.
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 19:18:00 - [196] Originally by: Epong Originally by: CCP Prism X ...Of course we're not going to ban you for selling Veldspar... 1)Thx god... Isn't that Chribba's line?
Fitz VonHeise The New Order. United Connection's	Posted - 2007.09.12 19:25:00 - [197] Originally by: CCP Prism X Of course we're not going to ban you or remove any ISK from you if an ISK buyer buys stuff from you with bad ISK.. unless the transaction is in the direction of 1 Veldspar for half a billion. This can be dangerous to anyone that sells anything then. Here is why: I sell a lot of stuff. And there are many people that are always trying to rip people off by making them think they are buying the product they want for 360000 when it is really 36000000. If you don't look close and you click and you actually have the 36m then the sale goes through. So you made an honest mistake but now CCP can come look at what happened and think you are an isk launderer. So they would hit you for another 36m. Now let's take another look at this same scenario with a twist. I sell an item for 360000 but I notice that someone is selling the same thing for 36000000. Now I have had this happen to me twice. For some strange reason (bug) the person selects my item to buy but instead they end up paying the 36000000 amount! Seriously. It has happened to me twice since I've started a year ago. It was a wonderful surprise. But now I could be looked at as an isk launderer for a bug that was caused by CCP!
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 19:33:00 - [198] Originally by: Fitz VonHeise I sell an item for 360000 but I notice that someone is selling the same thing for 36000000. Now I have had this happen to me twice. For some strange reason (bug) the person selects my item to buy but instead they end up paying the 36000000 amount! Seriously. It has happened to me twice since I've started a year ago. It was a wonderful surprise. But now I could be looked at as an isk launderer for a bug that was caused by CCP! .. But you haven't been, maybe because they look for stuff like this and know that the market does funny things? :P
Fitz VonHeise The New Order. United Connection's	Posted - 2007.09.12 19:37:00 - [199] Originally by: Grawshellar .. But you haven't been, maybe because they look for stuff like this and know that the market does funny things? :P Probably... and I guess they would have to see a large number of strange trasactions like that before they would conclude a person was an isk launderer. (At least one would hope they did)
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 19:37:00 - [200] Originally by: Grawshellar Originally by: Cpt Fina PrismX offered to help the OP, which is great. However, he didn't show any willingness to address this issue which he referred to as "hysteria". That really makes me feel that IÆm being taken seriously and with respect. Even though Prismx isn't going to read this thread anymore doesn't mean that the subjectis obsolete. He came right out and said that they have guidelines to differentiate between ISK sellers and scammers. The frame of rules is still very wide and many players will probably fit into the description. Players have little to no control of whether they are selling to isksellers or not. Quote: He also said he couldn't disclose much information so as to avoid giving the ISK sellers too much information. CCP won't give us the information needed to avoid getting banned so that they can catch isk-sellers... The cause is good. I just don't approve of the method. Quote: I don't know what else he could do, at this point you either take it on faith that they care enough to be careful to avoid wrongful banning, or you don't. It's pretty much that simple. Yeah I agree it's pretty much that simple. If you get banned you'll just have to trust that CCP have gathered enough evidence, which you're not aware of, to come to the conclusion that you are an iskbuyer, which you may not be in control of.

Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 19:37:00 - [201] Originally by: Fitz VonHeise Originally by: Grawshellar .. But you haven't been, maybe because they look for stuff like this and know that the market does funny things? :P Probably... and I guess they would have to see a large number of strange trasactions like that before they would conclude a person was an isk launderer. (At least one would hope they did) Well, you already know it takes more then 2 :P
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 19:42:00 - [202] Originally by: Cpt Fina Yeah I agree it's pretty much that simple. If you get banned you'll just have to trust that CCP have gathered enough evidence, which you're not aware of, to come to the conclusion that you are an iskbuyer, which you may not be in control of. I don't really know where to go from there. At this point if you're concerned with getting a ban in this manner, you have to be one of those people who are constantly afraid of getting struck by lightning. You know the basics of what to avoid, but you have no way to SPECIFICALLY know where to stand to assure you don't get fried. If you want to walk in the rain, you gotta risk it.
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 20:12:00 - [203] Originally by: Grawshellar Originally by: Cpt Fina Yeah I agree it's pretty much that simple. If you get banned you'll just have to trust that CCP have gathered enough evidence, which you're not aware of, to come to the conclusion that you are an iskbuyer, which you may not be in control of. I don't really know where to go from there. At this point if you're concerned with getting a ban in this manner, you have to be one of those people who are constantly afraid of getting struck by lightning. You know the basics of what to avoid, but you have no way to SPECIFICALLY know where to stand to assure you don't get fried. If you want to walk in the rain, you gotta risk it. No, I'm one of those people who recognizes (what he think is) injustice and fights it even though it haven't had an impact on him yet. Much like males that are active in the women-rights movement. "SPECIFICALLY"? The guidelines provided are very vague. Vague guidelines will give GMs great freedom when accusing someone of buying isk and will restrict players who want to confront the accusations. CCP is banning players for the greater good for the community but will not provide clear rules for the community of how not to get banned.
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 20:20:00 - [204] Originally by: Cpt Fina No, I'm one of those people who recognizes (what he think is) injustice and fights it even though it haven't had an impact on him yet. Much like males that are active in the women-rights movement. "SPECIFICALLY"? The guidelines provided are very vague. Vague guidelines will give GMs great freedom when accusing someone of buying isk and will restrict players who want to confront the accusations. CCP is banning players for the greater good for the community but will not provide clear rules for the community of how not to get banned. There are a lot of causes to champion in this world, this is the one you pick? Although I hate to fall back to an argument that I previously fought against, we've yet to see anyone yet come forward with a claim of being unfairly treated who followed the basic rules we do know. Even the OP who started this trainwreck of a thread decided that once the thread passed the "rabble rabble" point and help was offered he'd bow out and keep quiet :P
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 20:33:00 - [205] Originally by: Grawshellar There are a lot of causes to champion in this world, this is the one you pick? I pick whichever cause to fight, that I want. Are my arguments any less valid because you don't understand why I care? Originally by: Grawshellar Although I hate to fall back to an argument that I previously fought against, we've yet to see anyone yet come forward with a claim of being unfairly treated who followed the basic rules we do know. Even the OP who started this trainwreck of a thread decided that once the thread passed the "rabble rabble" point and help was offered he'd bow out and keep quiet :P Again: The problem isn't that innocent people are getting punished. The problem is that it's too hard to avoid fulfilling CCP's criteria of being a guilty person. If I would make a real world comparison: Would you feel ok if your country implements a law that states that ethnic minorities risk two times the jailtime for the same crime, as the rest of the population. But there'd be no record of the law being implemented yet. Would you understand that people would get upset even though noone has suffered the consequences of the law? And no I'm not comparing the thread topic to the real world comparison. I'm simply trying to show you why some people might care about this.
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 20:41:00 - [206] Originally by: Cpt Fina Again: The problem isn't that innocent people are getting punished. The problem is that it's too hard to avoid fulfilling CCP's criteria of being a guilty person. Heh, how do you know how hard it is to avoid fulfilling their criteria, GIVEN THAT YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS :P Simple answer, is you can't. You need to argue that not knowing their criteria causes undue strain on you or some ****e like that, to really have a point here. Fact is, we've yet to hear from the "wrongfully accused". We've heard from 2 people, one who has so far refused help in the matter, and another who was likely selling GTCs in an insecure manner.
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 20:50:00 - [207] Originally by: Grawshellar Originally by: Cpt Fina Again: The problem isn't that innocent people are getting punished. The problem is that it's too hard to avoid fulfilling CCP's criteria of being a guilty person. Heh, how do you know how hard it is to avoid fulfilling their criteria, GIVEN THAT YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS :P Simple answer, is you can't. Thanks for proving my point. Quote: You need to argue that not knowing their criteria causes undue strain on you or some **e like that, to really have a point here. I've posted what consequences it may have earlier, please read it again. Quote:** Fact is, we've yet to hear from the "wrongfully accused". We've heard from 2 people, one who has so far refused help in the matter, and another who was likely selling GTCs in an insecure manner. I've posted why this matter should be discussed anyway earlier, please read it again.
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 20:54:00 - [208] YOU: The problem is that it's too hard to avoid fulfilling CCP's criteria of being a guilty person. ME: This can't be the problem. You couldn't possibly know if this was a problem. It might be HORRIBLY EASY to avoid fulfilling their criteria. YOU: My point exactly????? Please explain
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.09.12 20:59:00 - [209] Originally by: Grawshellar Originally by: Fitz VonHeise I sell an item for 360000 but I notice that someone is selling the same thing for 36000000. Now I have had this happen to me twice. For some strange reason (bug) the person selects my item to buy but instead they end up paying the 36000000 amount! Seriously. It has happened to me twice since I've started a year ago. It was a wonderful surprise. But now I could be looked at as an isk launderer for a bug that was caused by CCP! .. But you haven't been, maybe because they look for stuff like this and know that the market does funny things? :P Heres a clever little trick btw: have both the highest and lowest sell orders in a station. When someone accidentally buys the highest priced item, you get the isk. I had a friend lose a character due to pulling this little trick. Of course, the GMs never believe you on matters such as these, you're a filthy isk seller, right? Ki Tarra - elaborating on any of these types of cases is a violation of the EULA and will result in forum warnings and/or in game bans. Stop baiting already, all you're trying to do is get people banned, and honestly I can't believe that you haven't been warned already. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 21:07:00 - [210] Originally by: Grawshellar YOU: The problem is that it's too hard to avoid fulfilling CCP's criteria of being a guilty person. ME: This can't be the problem. You couldn't possibly know if this was a problem. It might be HORRIBLY EASY to avoid fulfilling their criteria. YOU: My point exactly????? Please explain Nice misquote. Guidelines have been given; common sense and dont buy from isksellers. I'm it is to hard to effectively avoid these criterias as one of them require you to be able to spot isk-sellers and the other which meaning are up to each individual to determine (common sense). You then stated that "Heh, how do you know how hard it is to avoid fulfilling their criteria, GIVEN THAT YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS". I can not know if my definition of common sense in a given situation is the same as CCP's. That's why i agreed with you.

Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 21:23:00 - [211] Originally by: Cpt Fina Nice misquote. YOU: The problem is that it's too hard to avoid fulfilling CCP's criteria of being a guilty person. ME: Heh, how do you know how hard it is to avoid fulfilling their criteria, GIVEN THAT YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS YOU: Thank you for proving my point. Please explain Not really sure how this really changes things, I was trying to put it in simpler format. ** You claim the guidelines are insufficient, and because of this we are all at risk of being caught as isk buyers, based on the fact that it is easy to fulfill their criteria of an isk buyer. No amount of restating this makes up for the fact that this is not a fact. You make the assumption that it is easy to be mislabeled as an isk buyer. This is not a fact. The exact thing you stated as the problem is built on a possibly false assumption. * That point aside, what is your goal here? If your whole point is to get a list of guidelines that will assured you are not labeled as an ISK buyer, you're dreaming. Releasing such a guide would defeat the purpose of the system. THOSE PEOPLE CAN READ THE FORUMS AND USE IT TOO. Its horribly obvious you cannot get such a thing. So what do you hope to achieve?
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 21:39:00 - [212] Edited by: Cpt Fina on 12/09/2007 21:39:39 Originally by: Grawshellar You claim the guidelines are insufficient, and because of this we are all at risk of being caught as isk buyers, based on the fact that it is easy to fulfill their criteria of an isk buyer. No amount of restating this makes up for the fact that this is not a fact. You make the assumption that it is easy to be mislabeled as an isk buyer. I don't claim that it is a fact. I claim that CCP's statements gives me the impression of it: Quote: Of course we are going to ban you for selling 1 unit of Veldspar for half a billion ISK to a known ISK seller. Quote: Of course there are no magic numbers for when a transaction becomes suspect. True, Prismx could be lying but i will still continue to base my arguments on CCP's statements. If you have any more reliable source than CCP, please share it. Originally by: Grawshellar This is not a fact. The exact thing you stated as the problem is built on a possibly false assumption. False assumption? Do you think that the guidelines are clear and easy to follow? * Originally by:** Grawshellar That point aside, what is your goal here? If your whole point is to get a list of guidelines that will assured you are not labeled as an ISK buyer, you're dreaming. Releasing such a guide would defeat the purpose of the system. THOSE PEOPLE CAN READ THE FORUMS AND USE IT TOO. Its horribly obvious you cannot get such a thing. So what do you hope to achieve? I've allready written why i'm not content with this. Please reread it.
Cadela Fria Amarr Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.09.12 21:42:00 - [213] Edited by: Cadela Fria on 12/09/2007 21:46:31 Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Grawshellar YOU: The problem is that it's too hard to avoid fulfilling CCP's criteria of being a guilty person. ME: This can't be the problem. You couldn't possibly know if this was a problem. It might be HORRIBLY EASY to avoid fulfilling their criteria. YOU: My point exactly????? Please explain Nice misquote. Guidelines have been given; common sense and dont buy from isksellers. I'm it is to hard to effectively avoid these criterias as one of them require you to be able to spot isk-sellers and the other which meaning are up to each individual to determine (common sense). You then stated that "Heh, how do you know how hard it is to avoid fulfilling their criteria, GIVEN THAT YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS". I can not know if my definition of common sense in a given situation is the same as CCP's. That's why i agreed with you. You forget a few things though. Guidelines != Definitive rules, or rules at all for that matter. Common Sense != Definitive, in fact, common sense can quite ambiguous. Hysteria == Overreacting to something and blowing it up to be something really serious and "0mFg!! SKAI ES FAWLIN!!1!11". When CCP/Prism says "Guidelines", you read "Definitive rules!! OMG DESE R TEH COMMANDMENTS OF ISK LAUNDRY!!" What he means is (I think anyway, feel free to correct me Prism): "isk sellers are bad, m'kay? you shouldn't sell isk, because that'd be bad, m'kay? cause isk sellers are bad, m'kay? If you do sell isk, you're bad. Because isk sellers bad, m'kay? So don't be bad, by selling isk, that'd be bad..cause isk sellers are bad. I'm a turtle!! hear me roar! /sketch Chances are if you are not doing anything illicit (sp?) with isk outside the boundaries of the EULA, then you're in no trouble at all. Carry on as you always did, don't worry and just enjoy the game :) If in all unlikelyhood it happens that you get banned for isk laundry or acts related thereof, and you're TRULY innocent - You'll be fine, so don't panic! The guidelines here are to make your life in EVE easier and give you an idea of what can(not will) happen :) You might think it's annoying for you to deal with the possibility of being framed or temporarily suspended for isk laundry suspicioun. Imagine how annoying it is for us to actually having to fight these goobers constantly! (isk sellers) and trying to sort them from the good and honest players. We don't like isk sellers, we don't want them to be here, but they are! :( It is a wonder to me why GM's aren't addicts of nerve and headache medication yet! Did I mention I'm a turtle? :D Also uhmm..Just, you know..think before you act, it can save you a lot of trouble, common sense goes a long way. " (My translation of what Prism said anyway). Also on the argument of what common sense is - If you're going to get into details like that and worry about it, then I highly, nay, URGENTLY suggest, as a fellow human being to another, that you switch your worries from CCP's definition of "Common Sense", to your own state of paranoia. You don't specifically define Common Sense, because it just is...It's a sense, something we're usually programmed with in our mind that lets us go: "Well of course the door isn't locked! I'll walk up, grab the handle and go right in! THUNK!! OUWWW MY NOSE!! ARGHH!!" ...>_> uhmm, looK! an obvious distraction! points in random direction.... swipes scene under carpet* okay so bad example, but you know what I mean! Hysteria: Just...chill out, alright? The world isn't ending, and no matter what you may try to push through that poor skull and brain of yours: No, this issue is not a serious life-ending threat to you, relax..calm down, have a beer and watch Oveur tapdance! PS: Watch out for ninja-lawns, they sneak up and do grass stuff to you! Knowledge is a priviledge, not a right
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.09.12 21:51:00 - [214] Edited by: Ki Tarra on 12/09/2007 21:53:32 Originally by: Hllaxiu Heres a clever little trick btw: have both the highest and lowest sell orders in a station. When someone accidentally buys the highest priced item, you get the isk. I had a friend lose a character due to pulling this little trick. Of course, the GMs never believe you on matters such as these, you're a filthy isk seller, right? Ki Tarra - elaborating on any of these types of cases is a violation of the EULA and will result in forum warnings and/or in game bans. Stop baiting already, all you're trying to do is get people banned, and honestly I can't believe that you haven't been warned already. Honestly I would like to know if there was really any case where someone really did lose a character due to just having the best and worst sell order in a station. If CCP are punishing people for that scam, then it is wrong. If people legitamately screw up when using the market, then their money should go to those who know how to use it properly. I have taught many noobs, how the market works with regards to overpriced orders. Most often it is after they have already lost their money trying to send ISK from a trial account without knowing how the market works. Most often we are talking about a few million. I doubt that you friend would have gotten into trouble for making a few million on somes error. Now if you friend made several hundred million. It should have been noticable even to a hard core trader. If you are worried about form bans/warning, send me the details in-game. I am not trying to bait anyone into getting into trouble with the forum mods. I know what the limitations are. I am just seeking after the truth. BTW - when you do that scam, you just need to have the lowest priced sell order. It doesn't matter who has the higher priced order. If someone selects that order, you get the higher price for your goods. ************************** Ki Tech Industries - Bond Offer
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 21:59:00 - [215] Quote: Of course we are going to ban you for selling 1 unit of Veldspar for half a billion ISK to a known ISK seller. Quote: Of course there are no magic numbers for when a transaction becomes suspect. Those two lines, to you, indicate that being mislabeled as an isk buyer is easy? Did you have a nice bowl of paranoia for breakfast? Here's a few basic assumptions I feel are justified, feel free to disagree. 1.) A broad criteria turning up hundreds of matches for potential ISK buyers would be impossible due to the manpower required to sort through it. 2.) Therefore a narrow criteria would be required so as to prevent eternal backlog, or the necessity of having 200 employees to sort through it all. That right there pretty much takes care of it for me. **** If you really want to achieve anything, how about, I dunno, starting a thread specifically to warn other people about ways to avoid being labeled an isk buyer, and maybe get feedback on what other peoples opinions are as well? Heck, you might even get feedback on what is "common sense" in the eve community. PS Screw it, thread located HERE
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:01:00 - [216] Originally by: Cadela Fria You forget a few things though. Guidelines != Definitive rules, or rules at all for that matter. Common Sense != Definitive, in fact, common sense can quite ambiguous. Hysteria == Overreacting to something and blowing it up to be something really serious and "0mFg!! SKAI ES FAWLIN!!1!11". When CCP/Prism says "Guidelines", you read "Definitive rules!! OMG DESE R TEH COMMANDMENTS OF ISK LAUNDRY!!" What he means is (I think anyway, feel free to correct me Prism): "isk sellers are bad, m'kay? you shouldn't sell isk, because that'd be bad, m'kay? cause isk sellers are bad, m'kay? If you do sell isk, you're bad. Because isk sellers bad, m'kay? So don't be bad, by selling isk, that'd be bad..cause isk sellers are bad. I'm a turtle!! hear me roar! /sketch Chances are if you are not doing anything illicit (sp?) with isk outside the boundaries of the EULA, then you're in no trouble at all. Carry on as you always did, don't worry and just enjoy the game :) If in all unlikelyhood it happens that you get banned for isk laundry or acts related thereof, and you're TRULY innocent - You'll be fine, so don't panic! The guidelines here are to make your life in EVE easier and give you an idea of what can(not will) happen :) You might think it's annoying for you to deal with the possibility of being framed or temporarily suspended for isk laundry suspicioun. Imagine how annoying it is for us to actually having to fight these goobers constantly! (isk sellers) and trying to sort them from the good and honest players. We don't like isk sellers, we don't want them to be here, but they are! :( It is a wonder to me why GM's aren't addicts of nerve and headache medication yet! Did I mention I'm a turtle? :D Also uhmm..Just, you know..think before you act, it can save you a lot of trouble, common sense goes a long way. " (My translation of what Prism said anyway). I agree that guidelines isn't rules, that's why i say guidelines and not rules. I agree that "common sense" can be quite ambiguous and I have said so many times. I agree on you defenition of hysteria. However, I don't agree with Prismx when he labels the a discussion with concerned players as it. Quote: Also on the argument of what common sense is - If you're going to get into details like that and worry about it, then I highly suggest, as a fellow human being to another, that you switch your worries from CCP's definition of "Common Sense", to your own state of paranoia. I want to make sure that I nor anyone else in Eve gets banned based on a loose set of criteria that we don't get to avoid to start with beginning. I don't know about you but i'd be pretty **ed if CCP bans me for something that i can't control myself. Quote:** Just...chill out, alright? The world isn't ending, and no matter what you may try to push that poor skull and brain of yours: No, this issue is not a serious life-ending threat to you, relax..calm down, have a beer and watch Oveur tapdance! If I come of as fanatical it's because i'm defending my original statement, because i think i'm right quite simply
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:19:00 - [217] Edited by: Cpt Fina on 12/09/2007 22:20:27 Originally by: Grawshellar Quote: Of course we are going to ban you for selling 1 unit of Veldspar for half a billion ISK to a known ISK seller. Quote: Of course there are no magic numbers for when a transaction becomes suspect. Those two lines, to you, indicate that being mislabeled as an isk buyer is easy? Did you have a nice bowl of paranoia for breakfast? I don't claim that being labeled as an isk-buyer is easy. I'm saying that, based on CCP's statements, it's easy to fulfil the criteria of their isk-buyer definition. Prismx indicates that selling items overpriced to an iskseller might be enough to get banned. 1 veldspar for half a billion will get you banned but no lower limit is given. How should I, as a scammer/ high margin trader/ lootseller know where the lower limit is. How can I make sure that an isk-seller wont buy any of my overpriced items? Quote: Here's a few basic assumptions I feel are justified, feel free to disagree. What I'd like to see is a system in which legit players don't have to adjust their gameplay/make any sacrifices/get banned when fighting the isksellers. People will draw the line differently. Some are willing to make sacrifices to fight "evil". Some will say that if the playerbase suffer from the war against isk-sellers the war is allready lost. Quote: If you really want to achieve anything, how about, I dunno, starting a thread specifically to warn other people about ways to avoid being labeled an isk buyer, and maybe get feedback on what other peoples opinions are as well? At first I wanted to make clear which guidelines that was actually given to us. The last pages i've been defending my original posts.
Cadela Fria Amarr Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:26:00 - [218] Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Cadela Fria Pure awesomeness in terms of stuff I agree that guidelines isn't rules, that's why i say guidelines and not rules. I agree that "common sense" can be quite ambiguous and I have said so many times. I agree on you defenition of hysteria. However, I don't agree with Prismx when he labels the a discussion with concerned players as it. ...huh? labels? looks around for the label on self and the discussion...GIEF LABLZ NAUW PLX! I don't see this alledged "label" of which you speak Originally by: Cpt Fina Quote: Divine words of Cadela Fria, absolutely astonishingly brilliant! I want to make sure that I nor anyone else in Eve gets banned based on a loose set of criteria that we don't get to avoid to start with beginning. I don't know about you but i'd be pretty **ed if CCP bans me for something that i can't control myself. You can't make sure..you never can, simple as that. I could be banned this very second for supposed theft of Garthagk's bunnyslippers, I just don't know. () Like I said..Common sense just is...you can't definitively put down what it is, you never can. It' just one of those things that just is. Trust me when I tell you, that if you pursue this to these lengths and beyond, you're going to loose your hair and give yourself a nervous breakdown..please don't do that Originally by:** Cpt Fina Quote: Just...chill out, alright? The world isn't ending, and no matter what you may try to push that poor skull and brain of yours: No, this issue is not a serious life-ending threat to you, relax..calm down, have a beer and watch Oveur tapdance! If I come of as fanatical it's because i'm defending my original statement, because i think i'm right quite simply Oh of course, I knew that, I'm not questioning your motives..I'm worried about that you put way too much into this than there need be. Just let it go, I'll provide a beer and just, you know..play the game Knowledge is a priviledge, not a right
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:31:00 - [219] Originally by: Cpt Fina What I'd like to see is a system in which legit players don't have to adjust their gameplay/make any sacrifices/get banned when fighting the isksellers. People will draw the line differently. Some are willing to make sacrifices to fight "evil". Some will say that if the playerbase suffer from the war against isk-sellers the war is allready lost. I'm sure that CCP would love such a system as well. Would most certainly make their CS jobs easier. Would stop the bad publicity that comes with banning an "innocents". the only reason I can imagine for such a system not to already be in place would be the fact that it is either impossible, or no one has figured out the proper way to implement it. *** "Some are willing to make sacrifices to fight "evil". Some will say that if the playerbase suffer from the war against isk-sellers the war is allready lost." A bad playwright searching desperately for a dramatic moment might indeed coerce one of his stars into say something along those lines. Most people would cut back on the drama :P There is no evil, and no war. There is simply two groups trying to make a buck, and a large group of people caught between the two. Unfortunately, we happen to be those people.
Sheylyn	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:31:00 - [220] For everyones info the op has been busy working the last while and hasn't had a chance to respond. So if I may the character that the OP was alking about is also a friend of mine, and I can give the info if the Dev is interested

Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:35:00 - [221] Originally by: Cadela Fria I don't see this alledged "label" of which you speak Although I understand if Prismx is tired with listening to complaints all day, labeling a thread in which players are asking for means to avoid getting banned as hysteria is wrong imo. Originally by: Cadela Fria You can't make sure..you never can, simple as that. It appears so. I do however have the right to express my displeasure. That's what Eve-O is for Quote: Just let it go, I'll provide a beer and just, you know..play the game Smile I'll stop as soon as I've quelled all opposition. I promise
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:38:00 - [222] Edited by: Grawshellar on 12/09/2007 22:40:22 Originally by: Sheylyn For everyones info the op has been busy working the last while and hasn't had a chance to respond. So if I may the character that the OP was alking about is also a friend of mine, and I can give the info if the Dev is interested I'd send it to him, he specifically said the offer was still open.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:41:00 - [223] sigh another day, another time the OP and (even a lot of people here giving examples where they've been "Unfairly ruled against") has failed to prove their own innocence by debunking all isk-purchasing possibilities. Haven't really got much else to say, the last two pages have just been inane theorycraft and definition-arguing. Improve Market Competition!
Cadela Fria Amarr Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:44:00 - [224] Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Cadela Fria I don't see this alledged "label" of which you speak Although I understand if Prismx is tired with listening to complaints all day, labeling a thread in which players are asking for means to avoid getting banned as hysteria is wrong imo. It is hysteria though. It's a case of hypothetic situations that might, possibly, perhaps, maybe, could happen..It's not an encroaching threat that's moving in on your like a pair of evil dustballs on the prowl for your toes. Ya see? It's not a massive plague that's spreading rapidly..we're talking very very few instances. The forum here is self-evident to this..how often do you see a topic like this?..once?..twice every second month?...even less then that perhaps?. I mean whatever, you're entitled to your opionion, but, don't hurt your brain and nerves doing it. Knowledge is a priviledge, not a right
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:44:00 - [225] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs sigh another day, another time the OP and (even a lot of people here giving examples where they've been "Unfairly ruled against") has failed to prove their own innocence by debunking all isk-purchasing possibilities. Haven't really got much else to say, the last two pages have just been inane theorycraft and definition-arguing. /cheer for 4 useful pages followed by 4 pages of meaningless drivel!
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:47:00 - [226] Originally by: Grawshellar Originally by: Cpt Fina What I'd like to see is a system in which legit players don't have to adjust their gameplay/make any sacrifices/get banned when fighting the isksellers. People will draw the line differently. Some are willing to make sacrifices to fight "evil". Some will say that if the playerbase suffer from the war against isk-sellers the war is allready lost. I'm sure that CCP would love such a system as well. Would most certainly make their CS jobs easier. Would stop the bad publicity that comes with banning an "innocents". the only reason I can imagine for such a system not to already be in place would be the fact that it is either impossible, or no one has figured out the proper way to implement it. I think it's a matter of how big inpact CCP are willing to let thier fight against isk-buyers/sellers have on us players. They probably could require more solid proof before a deciding to ban making it safer but catch less sellers. Quote: There is no evil and no war I don't think isksellers are evil. That's why i wrote "evil" But there is a war. Not an armed conflict but a war nonetheless
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:53:00 - [227] Originally by: Cpt Fina I think it's a matter of how big inpact CCP are willing to let thier fight against isk-buyers/sellers have on us players. They probably could require more solid proof before a deciding to ban making it safer but catch less sellers. Quote: There is no evil and no war I don't think isksellers are evil. That's why i wrote "evil" But there is a war. Not an armed conflict but a war nonetheless I imagine they probably have people making discussion based on number of people isk sellers hurt vs number of people accidental bannings hurt :P Probably consult with other poeple in the field too, seeing as how all MMO's face the same problem and they all dislike RMT people. As to a war, its not a war. One side doesn't fight back! CCP bans the isk sellers en masse, and all they can do is take it and try to recover and come back with a new account. Its more of a slaughter really, I definitely wouldn't refer to it as a war under any circumstance!
Marcus Xavier Minmatar Xavier Institute for Higher Learning	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:54:00 - [228] Originally by: Fitz VonHeise Originally by: CCP Prism X Of course we're not going to ban you or remove any ISK from you if an ISK buyer buys stuff from you with bad ISK.. unless the transaction is in the direction of 1 Veldspar for half a billion. This can be dangerous to anyone that sells anything then. I sell an item for 360000 but I notice that someone is selling the same thing for 36000000. Now I have had this happen to me twice. For some strange reason (bug) the person selects my item to buy but instead they end up paying the 36000000 amount! Seriously. It has happened to me twice since I've started a year ago. It was a wonderful surprise. But now I could be looked at as an isk launderer for a bug that was caused by CCP! I have a simple solution that my avatar practices. I send an evemail to the person who overpaid an opportunity to receive their ISKies back. It includes enough information for them to review their transaction history and inform me of the product sold and their purchase price. If they respond correctly, I refund the difference. If they don't respond or provide incorrect information, I won't return the ISKies. The "bug" is annoying and it's happened to me twice last week, but I'm satisfied that if I run into a problem with the Revenuers, I have sufficient documentation to support my claim that my avatar is an honest trader. ---------------- Mutatis Mutandis
Sheylyn	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:55:00 - [229] please excuse the dates as we are pst time the character : Col pharao the date: September, 4/5 , 07 petition name:Why has my isk been removed? (possible title) Don't have the GM's name thou
Decarus Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:56:00 - [230] Originally by: Cpt Fina Quote: Of course we are going to ban you for selling 1 unit of Veldspar for half a billion ISK to a known ISK seller. Quote: Of course there are no magic numbers for when a transaction becomes suspect. Grawshellar: I've been reading these past pages of flamewarz with much interest. You totaly fail at pointing this use of selective omission from quotes, used to back up your opponsets arguments, against him. You kinda lose on that imo. ~Decarus, DANGER! Highly corrosive chemical material. Contact may cause severe irritation, burns or poisoning. Keep away from children.

Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:58:00 - [231] Originally by: Sheylyn please excuse the dates as we are pst time the character : Col pharao the date: September, 4/5 , 07 petition name:Why has my isk been removed? (possible title) Don't have the GM's name thou I'd shoot an email referring him to this thread. Can't seem to locate his emial ,but you can prolly shoot it to keiron with an explanation and he'd likely forward it for you. I say this because this thread is huge and it might be missed since he might be looking for posts by the OP only.
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:58:00 - [232] Originally by: Cadela Fria Edited by: Cadela Fria on 12/09/2007 22:47:49 Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Cadela Fria I don't see this alledged "label" of which you speak Although I understand if Prismx is tired with listening to complaints all day, labeling a thread in which players are asking for means to avoid getting banned as hysteria is wrong imo. It is hysteria though. It's a case of hypothetic situations that might, possibly, perhaps, maybe, could happen..It's not an encroaching threat that's moving in on you like a pair of evil dustballs on the prowl for your toes. Ya see? It's not a massive plague that's spreading rapidly..we're talking very very few instances. The forum here is self-evident to this..how often do you see a topic like this?..once?..twice every second month?...even less then that perhaps?. I mean whatever, you're entitled to your opionion, but, don't hurt your brain and nerves doing it. The reason people are responding to the OP is (if i'm allowed to speculate) because they sence that something is wrong and that i could hurt them. But the reason why it's so looong is because I've been defending my standing for so long. Now i realise that the chance, or risk rather, of this happening is very small. The proportion of the thread doesn't reflect the magnitude of the problem. Still, I do think that the posible consequences of said poblem justifies its length.
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:59:00 - [233] Edited by: Grawshellar on 12/09/2007 23:02:33 Originally by: Decarus Originally by: Cpt Fina Quote: Of course we are going to ban you for selling 1 unit of Veldspar for half a billion ISK to a known ISK seller. Quote: Of course there are no magic numbers for when a transaction becomes suspect. Grawshellar: I've been reading these past pages of flamewarz with much interest. You totaly fail at pointing this use of selective omission from quotes, used to back up your opponsets arguments, against him. You kinda lose on that imo. These 2 quotes you've posted was him quoting a post by a dev, he butchered it down to just those 2, not me. He used them as a reason to show that there was no hard guideline for a players behavoir. I just quoted them from him.
Sheylyn	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:01:00 - [234] ah thanks
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:02:00 - [235] Originally by: Grawshellar As to a war, its not a war. One side doesn't fight back! CCP bans the isk sellers en masse, and all they can do is take it and try to recover and come back with a new account. Its more of a slaughter really, I definitely wouldn't refer to it as a war under any circumstance! Haha, want to get into another discussion whether this can be classified as a war or not? I will simply say that you can.
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:06:00 - [236] Originally by: Decarus Originally by: Cpt Fina Quote: Of course we are going to ban you for selling 1 unit of Veldspar for half a billion ISK to a known ISK seller. Quote: Of course there are no magic numbers for when a transaction becomes suspect. Grawshellar: I've been reading these past pages of flamewarz with much interest. You totaly fail at pointing this use of selective omission from quotes, used to back up your opponsets arguments, against him. You kinda lose on that imo. I quoted two guidelines given by CCP. You could claim they were taken out of context but I don't see how.
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:06:00 - [237] Originally by: Cpt Fina Haha, want to get into another discussion whether this can be classified as a war or not? I will simply say that you can. That was my intent. Obviously we both have reason to believe as we do, and no amount of discussion is ever going to wheedle it down to one side being right. After 6 pages of discussing (from both sides in my case >.<) I don't think either of us can really say anything more thats going to convince the other :P And how can a proverbial genocide be a war? Its a slaughter! The isk sellers cannot offer meaningful resistance.
Decarus Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:09:00 - [238] Originally by: CCP Prism X Of course we are going to ban you for selling 1 unit of Veldspar for half a billion ISK to a known ISK seller. Of course there are no magic numbers for when a transaction becomes suspect. You're implying that the numbers are the only thing that matters. We wouldn't need GMs then, I'd write a script which would eventually ban you all and I'd have to find a new job. We have GMs because of the human factor. We need their intuition. With this intuition comes the so called 'Human Nature' which is flawed which leads us to doing mistakes even when our intentions are angelic. No, this would be the proper quote in my opinion. The omitted part makes the whole thing alot clearer and even implies that the Veldspar quote was just an arbitrary example because the Dev already said he couldn't elaborate at all. Don't know, maybe it's just me. I do enjoy using selective quoting against those who use them. I just wanted to be a part of this dooms day prophecy. ~Decarus, DANGER! Highly corrosive chemical material. Contact may cause severe irritation, burns or poisoning. Keep away from children.
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:10:00 - [239] Originally by: Grawshellar Originally by: Cpt Fina Haha, want to get into another discussion whether this can be classified as a war or not? I will simply say that you can. The isk sellers cannot offer meaningful resistance. Even tho Poland didn't put up a real fight when Germany attacked them it is still considered that Germany declared war.
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:12:00 - [240] Originally by: Cpt Fina Even tho Poland didn't put up a real fight when Germany attacked them it is still considered that Germany declared war. Isk sellers are hardly Poland. They don't put up any fight. They are Ghandi, without the morally superior high ground :P Would you say that Ghandi declared war on the British? :P

Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:14:00 - [241] Originally by: Decarus Originally by: CCP Prism X Of course we are going to ban you for selling 1 unit of Veldspar for half a billion ISK to a known ISK seller. Of course there are no magic numbers for when a transaction becomes suspect. You're implying that the numbers are the only thing that matters. We wouldn't need GMs then, I'd write a script which would eventually ban you all and I'd have to find a new job. We have GMs because of the human factor. We need their intuition. With this intuition comes the so called 'Human Nature' which is flawed which leads us to doing mistakes even when our intentions are angelic. No, this would be the proper quote in my opinion. The omitted part makes the whole thing alot clearer and even implies that the Veldspar quote was just an arbitrary example because the Dev already said he couldn't elaborate at all. Don't know, maybe it's just me. I do enjoy using selective quoting against those who use them. I just wanted to be a part of this dooms day prophecy. Yeah he states that it's the GMs that makes the final decision of where to draw the linein each case. But it is still a line that is drawn and that was what i used as an argument.
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:15:00 - [242] Originally by: Grawshellar Originally by: Cpt Fina Even tho Poland didn't put up a real fight when Germany attacked them it is still considered that Germany declared war. Isk sellers are hardly Poland. They don't put up any fight. They are Ghandi, without the morally superior high ground :P Would you say that Ghandi declared war on the British? :P No i'd say that he demonstrated against opression. Much like i'm doing in this thread :P
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:19:00 - [243] Originally by: Cpt Fina No i'd say that he demonstrated against opression. Much like i'm doing in this thread :P In the same way the the ISK sellers are demonstrating against their oppression. And CCP definitely oppresses them!
Sheylyn	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:22:00 - [244] Ok I need an email address to send the requested info for Prism X. Can anyone help me out, by chance have the address please, as I can't find one for him
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:25:00 - [245] Originally by: Grawshellar Originally by: Cpt Fina No i'd say that he demonstrated against opression. Much like i'm doing in this thread :P In the same way the the ISK sellers are demonstrating against their oppression. And CCP definitely oppresses them! Or in the way that there's a state of conflict (war) between the two.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:29:00 - [246] Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 12/09/2007 23:31:42 Quote: Even tho Poland didn't put up a real fight when Germany attacked them it is still considered that Germany declared war. Ah,, dammit, who's law is it that states all online discussions degenerate into talks about Germany, WW2 and **'s? Three cheers for off topic. EDIT: Godwins law :) Quote: Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Analogies)[1] is an adage formulated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states:[2] As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving s or **** approaches one. More cheers for profanity filters :O Improve Market Competition!
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:34:00 - [247] Originally by: Sheylyn Ok I need an email address to send the requested info for Prism X. Can anyone help me out, by chance have the address please, as I can't find one for him Not sure it is available anywhere, maybe send it to [email protected] and explain that it needs forward to CCP Prism as per his request, and that you don't have the email. Thats the only email I have :P
Sheylyn	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:37:00 - [248] thanks again I'll send it straight off
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:37:00 - [249] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 12/09/2007 23:31:04 Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 12/09/2007 23:30:10 Quote: Even tho Poland didn't put up a real fight when Germany attacked them it is still considered that Germany declared war. Ah,, dammit, who's law is it that states all online discussions degenerate into talks about Germany, WW2 and **'s? Three cheers for off topic. EDIT: Godwins law :) Quote: Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Analogies)[1] is an adage formulated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states:[2] As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving s or **** approaches one. When discussing the definition of war, WW2 comparisons are OK imo. It's really amusing how you don't have anything but this to provide to the discussion and I really hope, for your own sake, that your post isn't a fair display of your intellect.
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:40:00 - [250] Originally by: Cpt Fina Or in the way that there's a state of conflict (war) between the two. There was a 'state of conflict' between Ghandi and the British, but you already said you wouldn't call that war.

Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:42:00 - [251] Edited by: Grawshellar on 12/09/2007 23:44:30 Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 12/09/2007 23:31:04 Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 12/09/2007 23:30:10 Quote: Even tho Poland didn't put up a real fight when Germany attacked them it is still considered that Germany declared war. Ah,, dammit, who's law is it that states all online discussions degenerate into talks about Germany, WW2 and **'s? Three cheers for off topic. EDIT: Godwins law :) Quote: Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Analogies)[1] is an adage formulated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states:[2] As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving s or **** approaches one. When discussing the definition of war, WW2 comparisons are OK imo. It's really amusing how you don't have anything but this to provide to the discussion and I really hope, for your own sake, that your post isn't a fair display of your intellect. Eh, its all in good fun, anytime you see a discussion approaching Godwins law you are honour-bound to point it out. He's just doing his civic duty as a proud member of teh interweb. EDIT: And this isn't off topic, we're still discussing ISK sellers, which has been the main point of this thread!
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:46:00 - [252] Originally by: Grawshellar Originally by: Cpt Fina Or in the way that there's a state of conflict (war) between the two. There was a 'state of conflict' between Ghandi and the British, but you already said you wouldn't call that war. I really didn't think you were being serious when you started to discuss if my use of the word "war" was correct or not. Quote: war Pronunciation: 'wor Function: noun 2 a : a state of hostility, conflict, or antagonism b : a struggle or competition between opposing forces or for a particular end <a class war> <a war against disease Webster Now, i'm sure you can call the conflict between CCP and the isk-sellers alot of things. "War" is one of them.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:47:00 - [253] Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 12/09/2007 23:49:41 Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 12/09/2007 23:49:22 Quote: When discussing the definition of war, WW2 comparisons are OK imo. It's really amusing how you don't have anything but this to provide to the discussion and I really hope, for your own sake, that your post isn't a fair display of your intellect. I've put my content four pages ago when this topic had a point. I'll say it again if you missed my repost two pages ago. The OP has NOT proven his innocence, in fact there's a considerable lack of information which COULD prove his innocence, and the OP hasn't said this to prove his point. Many other people who've come out of the woodwork and said "It's happened to me too" have also failed to prove their innocence. Until anyone does this, there's really no reason to be concerned about this action by GM's. This topic was about a GM stripping isk away from his account, and whether GM's condone this or not. Quote: Do you condone your gm's making players lose there hard earned ships and isk by riping them off.. The question^^ A certain player sells rattlesnake on open contract other player buys it gm comes along says it was sold to a known isk seller and takes the isk he just got for the ship,,the ship itself and then take another bill off him aswell and that = lost player and soon many more to come if this type of thing is aloud to keep up The scenario ^^ Something must be done about this abuse of power by gm's ingame.its not the first time I've heard of this happening. Don't bother telling me this is the first time you've heard this cause i know it is not. What are you going to do about this me as a customer of your fine product would really like to know.. The conclusion NOT the definition of a war on isk-sellers, proper quoting of each other, comparisons to passive and aggressive actions, and evaluations of each others posts, ergo, you and Graw's ramblings are completely off topic and derailed any meaningful progress of this thread. Improve Market Competition!
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:55:00 - [254] Originally by: Cpt Fina I really didn't think you were being serious when you started to discuss if my use of the word "war" was correct or not. Yeah, let your guard down and I strike! Sophistry is my medium, Protagoras my teacher, etc etc :P Seriously though, about time to log in and play eve. I think we've squeezed every bit of productive thought out of this thread :P
cRaNbErRy MuFfInMaN mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:58:00 - [255] Edited by: cRaNbErRy MuFfInMaN on 13/09/2007 00:05:10 Check out http://dl1.eve-files.com/media/0608/new.jpg
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:59:00 - [256] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs NOT the definition of a war on isk-sellers, proper quoting of each other, comparisons to passive and aggressive actions, and evaluations of each others posts, ergo, you and Graw's ramblings are completely off topic and derailed any meaningful progress of this thread. The friend of the original poster only returned a few moments ago, and I directed him to the proper location to send the information to those who need it. He didn't have any use for the thread in the meantime, so there shouldn't be any issues with us keeping it warm for him.
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.09.13 00:02:00 - [257] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 12/09/2007 23:49:22 Quote: When discussing the definition of war, WW2 comparisons are OK imo. It's really amusing how you don't have anything but this to provide to the discussion and I really hope, for your own sake, that your post isn't a fair display of your intellect. I've put my content four pages ago when this topic had a point. I'll say it again if you missed my repost two pages ago. The OP has NOT proven his innocence, in fact there's a considerable lack of information which COULD prove his innocence, and the OP hasn't said this to prove his point. Many other people who've come out of the woodwork and said "It's happened to me too" have also failed to prove their innocence. Until anyone does this, there's really no reason to be concerned about this action by GM's. This topic was about a GM stripping isk away from his account, and whether GM's condone this or not. Quote: Do you condone your gm's making players lose there hard earned ships and isk by riping them off.. The question^^ A certain player sells rattlesnake on open contract other player buys it gm comes along says it was sold to a known isk seller and takes the isk he just got for the ship,,the ship itself and then take another bill off him aswell and that = lost player and soon many more to come if this type of thing is aloud to keep up The scenario ^^ Something must be done about this abuse of power by gm's ingame.its not the first time I've heard of this happening. Don't bother telling me this is the first time you've heard this cause i know it is not. What are you going to do about this me as a customer of your fine product would really like to know.. [i] The conclusion And i've already stated why I think them being guilty or not has little to no bearing at all. Quote: NOT the definition of a war on isk-sellers, proper quoting of each other, comparisons to passive and aggressive actions, and evaluations of each others posts, ergo, you and Graw's ramblings are completely off topic and derailed any meaningful progress of this thread. I responded to a lame theory-quote with coming from nowhere from a guy who hasn't been active in the discussion for several pages. The WW2 comparison was relevant given the context. Your abrupt input to this discussion were taken seriously. That combined with the sheer lameness of Godwin's Law resulted into my answer.
Fact Foreman	Posted - 2007.09.13 00:08:00 - [258] Edited by: Fact Foreman on 13/09/2007 00:12:13 Edited by: Fact Foreman on 13/09/2007 00:08:38 Originally by: CCP PrismX Originally by: Vrizuh Edited by: Vrizuh on 12/09/2007 04:13:21 Oh this is gonna be fun. PrismX and that female dev who does the drone regions are my fav devs. EDIT: more respectful If you're talking about my alternate personality as that female dev who does the drone regions then you are mistaken. I didn't do them, I just took interest in them afterwards. Then I noticed people were attributing female pronouns to me so I decided my Avatar had to change or I'd have to face the same comments and questions over and over again on the fanfest. I'm still awaiting information from the OP to be posted here. I cannot see any questions raised which I haven't already answered (and just because you ask them again in different ways doesn't mean I'm going to answer them differently) so we'll leave it at that. Damn I so miss this face. Well as u state above then you say you have answered every question that have come in this threat, so now that we have someone from CCP that seems to be intresed in the problem thats killing EvE, i wana ask, what proof do ppl have to hold on to get ppl banned for isk sellin ?, can CCP just take 4 sticks with name on and the shortest one gets ban or do they care about straight facts ? and if its not workin the way i ask here then why are isk farmers let to stay in game ewen when they brag about it and say it in local that they sell isk ?. Now i see you are gona say that you need some kinda proof, enjoy it and close your eyes against it, thats the CCP way :l " ME > u isk farmin for family ? Ronnie Pickering > In order to study ME > to study ? ME > u sell isk to stay school ? Ronnie Pickering > yes " What more you want ? BTW: ofc i did SS this and send to CCP in the form of petition, and ofc hes still isk farming, and ofc i am still wondering why i did spend 5 minutes of the playtime i pay for to try help solve CCP's problem
Tu Madre	Posted - 2007.09.13 00:09:00 - [259] ok i just want to know one thing - WTF is a "known ISK seller" still doing in game? as soon as that account is known he should be booted out of the game and the isk he still holds donated to ME... sounds like those CCP guys are allowing known isk sellers to exist. i think the account should be suspended as soon as it become suspect and not allowed to trade any further. and i also dont think that blanket reversals are the answer either. the transactrion log needs closer analysis than that. isk sellers can play thier accoun ts too you know... and some of the purchases they make are legitimate im sure lets not punish the wider comunity for other peoples crimes
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.13 00:15:00 - [260] Originally by: Tu Madre ok i just want to know one thing - WTF is a "known ISK seller" still doing in game? as soon as that account is known he should be booted out of the game and the isk he still holds donated to ME... sounds like those CCP guys are allowing known isk sellers to exist. i think the account should be suspended as soon as it become suspect and not allowed to trade any further. and i also dont think that blanket reversals are the answer either. the transactrion log needs closer analysis than that. isk sellers can play thier accoun ts too you know... and some of the purchases they make are legitimate im sure lets not punish the wider comunity for other peoples crimes I think this was clarified earlier, but I don't blame you for missing it :P Once someone is discovered to be an ISK seller, they go back and look at all their transactions. You might deal with a guy, and a week later he gets caught, THEN you get punished. Of course this leads to the question of what to do about people who suddenly take up ISK selling, how can they decide that this person has always been an ISK seller?

Omega Sinner	Posted - 2007.09.13 00:29:00 - [261] This thread is not just about one player and one incident..I want every incident that players have had were items and isk have been taken away by gm's here.. its time for a collective mind to stand and say this is happening.. whats going on. gm's need to take more care on there actions and investigate the situation before taking extreme action.. They need more training and more guidence on there actions before there aloud to make such decsions as to remove items and isk and in my oppinion only senior gm's should be the ones aloud to do such actions....once a proper investigation has been taken.. Not at a whime of a possible situation specially when a player has no idea who is buying there auctions or contracts and wether its dirty isk or ligit isk.. every system isn't perfect we are only human after all..but there are ways to fix a situation that is becoming increasingly more common and slowly making the paying consumer distrust the gm's and there actions and fear about selling anything for it being taken away.. Followed by a lengthy fight to get it back.. Most won't bother and just leave to find a different game.. Don't let a few isk sellers ruin a good game for other ligit players who want to play and trust they are looked well after.. Don't be vast and cold like your game can be show the fact you care about the ppl who make this game great fun to play.. the inforamtion about this one incident has been sent yet again..
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.13 00:32:00 - [262] Originally by: Omega Sinner This thread is not just about one player and one incident..I want every incident that players have had were items and isk have been taken away by gm's here.. its time for a collective mind to stand and say this is happening.. whats going on. gm's need to take more care on there actions and investigate the situation before taking extreme action.. They need more training and more guidence on there actions before there aloud to make such decsions as to remove items and isk and in my oppinion only senior gm's should be the ones aloud to do such actions....once a proper investigation has been taken.. Not at a whime of a possible situation specially when a player has no idea who is buying there auctions or contracts and wether its dirty isk or ligit isk.. every system isn't perfect we are only human after all..but there are ways to fix a situation that is becoming increasingly more common and slowly making the paying consumer distrust the gm's and there actions and fear about selling anything for it being taken away.. Followed by a lengthy fight to get it back.. Most won't bother and just leave to find a different game.. Don't let a few isk sellers ruin a good game for other ligit players who want to play and trust they are looked well after.. Don't be vast and cold like your game can be show the fact you care about the ppl who make this game great fun to play.. the inforamtion about this one incident has been sent yet again.. If ya have trouble getting a response, or getting it forwarded to the proper place, you can also try [email protected] Good luck with your investigation, I hope it comes out in your friends favour.
Omega Sinner	Posted - 2007.09.13 00:35:00 - [263] Thank you for the info Grawshellar and for your support
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.13 00:37:00 - [264] Originally by: Omega Sinner Thank you for the info Grawshellar and for your support No problem :P If ya don't mind, let us all know how it goes!
Omega Sinner	Posted - 2007.09.13 01:00:00 - [265] I will.. My intent with this post is not to slam ccp or its gm's its to try and bring forth a new thought process towards there actions and more caution with there extreme actions so that players aren't left wondering why this happened and should I continue in this game.. then it spreads making ppl wonder if they should sell anything on market for fear this might happen to them aswell.. proper procedures need to be put into place so this doesn't happen anymore.. a long fight to get something you know you didn't do anything wrong with is hard to follow through with..specially if nothing seems to be happening..
Omax1	Posted - 2007.09.13 02:20:00 - [266] Ok I am responding to this post because I can see that it is a heated topic and that GM's have been guilty of this before. I have 3 accounts two of which have now been cancelled, this one hasnt been cancelled yet because it is on a time card. I am the one that this has happened to, well one of my other toons on another account. So I well post exactly what happened to me....I log into my main account which is 3+ years old to discover that I have a negative balance around 900mill i think. I immediatly set out to find out what has happened... I do a journal search in my isk account to discover that a GM has taken out 1,010,000,000 isk from my account with no explenation.... I therefore petition to find out what has happened... the GM that responded was very short with me and simply said your being punished for recieving isk from a known isk seller and lists that name of that person.... I research more only to discover that this person purchased off of contracts a faction BS from me a couple of days earlier for the same price... I petition again this time a little more heated in my words.... I get the response back that basically I was SOL and thats what happens to isk buyers. Having come to expect this kind of BS from GM's and having spent far to long playing the game, enjoying it I might add. I send off another email this time to customer support from the website as a petition to a senior GM. I then continue to play the game and am working very hard to gain a + balance as I use this toon for research and industrial ops as well as combat, combat seems to be the only way to work your way out of a hole. So after around 25 or so lvl 4's and 2 days later im at around 350mill in the hole. In the mean time I do report isk farmers and isk sellers as well as buyers. No more than 6 hours after listing such an email to GM's via petition I log back into my account to discover that another 1 Billion isk has been taken out of my account.... well I'm pretty **ed now and again start the research proscess only to discover that there is a journal entry in my isk account listing a bunch of numbers next to a [r] for reason (Isk buying from some known isk seller). I then send a petition to guess who... a senior GM only to get the response that I am being punished for buying isk. After going back with this GM through several responses I get know where and no info for what I can do to stop what is happening to me. Heh by the way I get my response back from (Customer service) I use that word losely, that they appreciate my information and concerns but there is nothing they can do. So it is now 2am Pacific and I am pretty **ed.... and it takes alot to get me there. I have simply had enough of what CCP is calling GM's who do not investigate what is going on give no reasons and no proof of what they have found only punish someone who has for a long time put up with much, but enjoys the actual game itself. I apologize to anyone following this post for my late response as I am a business man who understands well what customer service really is and who succesfully runs a 10 million dollar retail store front. I am sure there will be plenty of people to pick this apart, but this is what has happened in this particular chain of events. I have given CCP the chance to make this right and can see that it is truly the players that make this game what it is. CCP has all the info on how to get ahold of me, but I have yet to hear a peep. Thanks to all who have posted in here who know me and how I play the game. I dont buy isk, I dont sell isk.... I did report those that do though. I have sent a second email to customer service on this very thing and have yet to recieve a response......that one had a few choice words in it as you can imagine.
pirategirl85	Posted - 2007.09.13 02:34:00 - [267] How long ago was the second removal of funds?
Omax1	Posted - 2007.09.13 02:36:00 - [268] Two Days after the first incident Originally by: pirategirl85 How long ago was the second removal of funds?
Sheylyn	Posted - 2007.09.13 02:59:00 - [269] you should send the info to Prism X as he was asking for the info on the problem as it is you who was affected (well your main toon was)
Traderboy 001	Posted - 2007.09.13 03:03:00 - [270] Quote: It isn't blatant abuse of GM power, abuse would indicate GM's would do it to futher their own goals, they aren't doing that but instead they are just following work procedures. Just to tweak the rampent BoB people..bet theres not a single BoB alt missing isk or getting banned

Omega Sinner	Posted - 2007.09.13 03:13:00 - [271] Originally by: Quote: It isn't blatant abuse of GM power, abuse would indicate GM's would do it to futher their own goals, they aren't doing that but instead they are just following work procedures. but if a procedure indicates that players are suffering great losses with no validation.and are suffering for it with no compensation or fixing the problem it is abuse of the consumer when there is no warranted means to do so and its done on a possibilaty of wrong doing.. like the old saying shoot first ask questions later..but that gets you knowhere but with more problems.. do it enough and your left with nothing but wondering why you can't get out.. because you've shot some of those that could have helped you and chased everybody else away for fear of being shot..
RedLion Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.13 03:19:00 - [272] GM's should support, not ban! :P But what can we expect? We pay to a mysterious icelandic company for something we can't controle. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The Gallenteans must be destroyed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Devian 666 Sectoid Technologies	Posted - 2007.09.13 03:45:00 - [273] All I can say is this. If you bunch of moaners were my clients I would decline work from you. If you have an issue with your isk being taken by a GM contact CCP as moaning without giving full details is pointless and achieves nothing. If a mistake has occurred contact CCP. Be polite and ask for escalation. Not explaining the problem clearly and being abusive doesn't help you to recover anything. A dev has offered to help the op why not contact the dev as instructed and tell us the results of this investigation. If you don't contact the dev then you have no sympathy from anyone. For all the people panicing you should perhaps consider that in fact nothing has happend to you so why are you panicing? I agree I don't have the features to be a holoreel star. Most people have missed the point that this is Mobsters Online and that carebears are at the bottom of the foodchain.
Zaferia	Posted - 2007.09.13 04:27:00 - [274] [quote\]If you have an issue with your isk being taken by a GM contact CCP as moaning without giving full details is pointless and achieves nothing. Read the first post on this page you'll see that issue has been explained and that the Dev was sent the information that he requested in previous posts.
Devian 666 Sectoid Technologies	Posted - 2007.09.13 04:33:00 - [275] Edited by: Devian 666 on 13/09/2007 04:33:28 Originally by: Zaferia [quote\]If you have an issue with your isk being taken by a GM contact CCP as moaning without giving full details is pointless and achieves nothing. Read the first post on this page you'll see that issue has been explained and that the Dev was sent the information that he requested in previous posts. You should read the thread prior to posting as there is a Dev response in this thread. You may also note that the first post on this page is not the OP. I agree I don't have the features to be a holoreel star. Most people have missed the point that this is Mobsters Online and that carebears are at the bottom of the foodchain.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.09.13 04:33:00 - [276] So where'd the faction BS come from? Improve Market Competition!
Zaferia	Posted - 2007.09.13 04:52:00 - [277] You should read the thread prior to posting as there is a Dev response in this thread. You may also note that the first post on this page is not the OP. No your right it's not the OP, but the post at the top of the page is the alt of the affected said toon that the op was talking about, and the op did say he sent the info that was requested to the dev. I'm sorry I should have posted it this way the first time to avoid confusion
Devian 666 Sectoid Technologies	Posted - 2007.09.13 04:56:00 - [278] Originally by: Zaferia You should read the thread prior to posting as there is a Dev response in this thread. You may also note that the first post on this page is not the OP. No your right it's not the OP, but the post at the top of the page is the alt of the affected said toon that the op was talking about, and the op did say he sent the info that was requested to the dev. I'm sorry I should have posted it this way the first time to avoid confusion Ok understood. Needs to go to Dev in this thread for investigation. I don't think anyone needs to have their isk taken if they're innocent. I do think there needs to be a clear process to allow people to establish innocence. Now's it's over to the Dev. I agree I don't have the features to be a holoreel star. Most people have missed the point that this is Mobsters Online and that carebears are at the bottom of the foodchain.
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.13 05:02:00 - [279] Originally by: Devian 666 Now's it's over to the Dev. The worst part is the waiting... now I'm horribly interested to find out whats the scoop.
Usarua	Posted - 2007.09.13 05:46:00 - [280] simple, just never sell anything on the market or use contracts again, until all the isk sellers leave.

SuicidalMerchant Republic University	Posted - 2007.09.13 06:37:00 - [281] Hopefully PrismX will investigate that guy's issue at the top there. If its found that the GM banned a guy for selling a legally acquired faction BS at market value on a public contract, that GM should have to face playing the game until he has access to level 4 agents. You know, so he actually understands the frikkin basics.
Usarua	Posted - 2007.09.13 07:18:00 - [282] to me, the anti-isk seller pitchfork and torches mob seems like a lot of overblown reaction, such as to the supposed "necro posting". About isk sellers. the market and contracts work based on players. they put in, they take out. ISK sellers usually have a supply of ISK either from creating market buys for extremely low price and marking them up for huge gains when people would rather sell them than reprocess or ask for a reasonable price (so its lazy people that support ISK sellers ), or they have a supply of isk from farmers. ISK farmers get isk the same way as everyone else, by massive mining ops or mission or rat runs. what happens when you take out ISK farmers? you remove those people, and the ones who would've been future isk buyers are now farming for their own isk instead, the same job. also consider that isk sellers and isk farmers need paid accounts to use. so CCP does still make money, and in fact, the isk sellers and farmers are really only inflating the player base and economy the same as having real players doing it all themselves instead of to sell to other players for money. this is not the problem. the real problem with isk sellers is that they allow people to jump ahead in the game and they make a profit off of CCPs property and at the same time giving real world value to the game, and making money of other's copyrighted material is internationally illegal, at least where countries agree. for the ones that dont recognize this and take their own internal measures against these groups and people, that seems irresponsible enough to create embargoes against them. Since it takes isk sellers time and hard work, I'm actually sympathetic, but I still think they should be removed. if you think about it, the vehement outcries and constant complaints are likely what is prompting CCP to take such quick and harsh action that it also effects players. You all complain so much, and deluge the forums and petitions with complaints, that CCP would be accused of not doing anything if they didnt react quickly. they do, and they get accused of this stuff. You cant have it both ways, and I prefer it to be done right, so let CCP handle the isk sellers and simply block their conversation in game, im quite sure they can easily detect sellers and get rid of them themselves, we dont need 150k people sending them petitions and forum or email complaints all at once. hmm perhaps thats creating undue lag on the servers? So, Id personally rather CCP take a little longer to get rid of them, and all the trouble they caused, while still protecting the innocent and giving them back what was lost, rather than moving too quickly because of the QQ rain. if you're interested in my views of necro posting. Im amused when a thread gets locked because someone responded to it after the last response was 1 month to a year old. This thread then simply gets replaced by a new one of the same topic. I enjoy hearing the complaints about how theres so many "this kind of topic" threads constantly, or so many "that kind of topic" threads. Dont you think if people are creating threads similar to old ones, having one page of threads each 100 pages long so that anyone can read everyones views and make arguments all in one neat little thread, rather than having to make new ones that start the debate from the beginning again, and continue until the cycle repeats, is more efficient for server use and for looking for threads on particular topics? I dont really care about anyones argument against "necro posting" since if there's something of value or some new information that changes it, its far better to deal with it on a thread that was already created for it, than a new thred. I highly doubt necro posting was supposed to go as far as knee jerk lock and flame responses for anyone who posts anything in an older thread. in fact, I consider that the original definition of necro poster is someone who spams a post or puts meaningless content in it just to bump it
Usarua	Posted - 2007.09.13 07:19:00 - [283] to the top without adding value to it. and thats always against the forum rules, so it should be deleted and the results reversed. but thats just how I feel about that, not really going to change my mind based on anyones arguments.
CharlieMurphy Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.09.13 08:25:00 - [284] im taking your post at face value when i say this omax1 but i think thats a sad sitation for you and frankly i dont know how CCP could ever lose interest to the point that GMs can run rampant like that after having to deal with GMs myself i have no faith in them whatsoever and truly beleive that they have no real interest in the players they deal with when this thread started i would have said it was out of the question for a GM to rob a player like that and maybe even pocket the isk themself but as more and more people seem to be comming forward with similar tails it makes you wonder Originally by: CCP Prism X But that's why we have watchers who watch the watchers). your talking about a system where the people who are handing out the punishments are the exact same people you have to ask to reconsider who are GMs really accountable to? if i dont like the response i get i can ask for another GM and a new name materialises but i dont really know if its a different person or not the idea of "escalating" petitions is nice enough and no doubt a comfort to people that have faith in the system but what does it really mean ? IA sounds all well and good but is it really anything more than a new name for the same failing system? from personal experience i know that when you wont accept the response your given and you ask for a senior GM to look at the petition you can be put on hold for months in omax1s case months of waiting is rather damaging to his gaming experience (like having billions wrongly removed for even a few days wasnt bad enough) i wonder if it turns out that he didnt buy isk or knowingly trade with a "known seller" - who shouldnt even be in the game - will CCP be refunding him with some free game time? banning the the farmers is the only solution to isk selling, you can pull up weeds from your garden again and again but they will keep returning until you poison the root how much do you really care CCP?
RedLion Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.13 08:45:00 - [285] Edited by: RedLion on 13/09/2007 08:47:03 Well, what CCP says and what CCP does could be 2 different things: Officially there is no doubt that any MMORPG company gains from having an anti RMT policy. My impression is that other mmorpg developers (such as Blizzard) does not punish buyers, as they know they lose customers then. I don't know what CCP does to people who buy ISK, or how big this problem is. But it looks to me that you can pay all from $5 to $hundreds for isk. Now if people use $5 on isk, and CCP take so strong action against the people who did it, that they lose customers... Well it's abit strange. CCP rather lose like $150 a year to punish people who buy isk for $5? Economics and EVE is kinda the same thing. In eve you need to break the tank of the other ship, so it's the relative dps that matters. Same with IRL and economics. CCP have more or less the same expenses. As the variable expenses for each new subscription is really low. So I wonder how serious CCP is about punishing people involved in RMT. I don't expect any correct answer on this will come from official hold though. BTW I agree with with CharlieMurphy, the whole "Watch the watcher" thing is flawed. But as I said in my previous post somewhere.... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The Gallenteans must be destroyed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
RedLion Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.13 08:52:00 - [286] Edited by: RedLion on 13/09/2007 08:54:00 Another fun thing to ask is, If people get 1 billion isk for free from someone, they get punished by CCP, however the only thing that stands in EULA is: Quote: B. Selling Items and Objects You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation characters, character attributes, items, currency, and objects, other than via a permitted Character Transfer as described in section 3 above. You may not encourage or induce any other person to participate in such a prohibited transaction. The buying, selling or auctioning (or any attempt at doing so) of characters, character attributes, items, currency, or objects, whether through online auctions (such as ebay), newsgroups, postings on message boards or any other means is prohibited by the EULA and a violation of CCP's proprietary rights in the Game. So if you get 1 bill isk from someone and spend it, it should be CCPs problem and not yours. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The Gallenteans must be destroyed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Omega Sinner	Posted - 2007.09.13 09:05:00 - [287] Edited by: Omega Sinner on 13/09/2007 09:07:58 to early in the morning need sleep... Still waiting on reply from prisim x will be posted as soon as one is heard....
Cornucopian Gallente Dutch Omega United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.13 09:06:00 - [288] Originally by: RedLion Edited by: RedLion on 13/09/2007 08:54:00 Another fun thing to ask is, If people get 1 billion isk for free from someone, they get punished by CCP, however the only thing that stands in EULA is: Quote: B. Selling Items and Objects You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation characters, character attributes, items, currency, and objects, other than via a permitted Character Transfer as described in section 3 above. You may not encourage or induce any other person to participate in such a prohibited transaction. The buying, selling or auctioning (or any attempt at doing so) of characters, character attributes, items, currency, or objects, whether through online auctions (such as ebay), newsgroups, postings on message boards or any other means is prohibited by the EULA and a violation of CCP's proprietary rights in the Game. So if you get 1 bill isk from someone and spend it, it should be CCPs problem and not yours. so basically were **** either way? if someone decides to by my megathron in deep 0.0 voor a billion, I loose the billion as well as my megathron. CCP rulez! way to go. why not just reset everyones wallet to 0 ? that would be a much faster way to kill all the isk sellers and macroers: that way you get a 100% coverage on them. ----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer." Originally by:** Royaldo complete win by Cornucopian!
w0rmy M. Corp M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.09.13 09:07:00 - [289] Originally by: CCP Prism X I'll have a topic to link to every time this is posted to show our good intentions in action. I'm still not saying we don't do mistakes. I'm saying we mean well. Everyone does mistakes. I just did a huge mistake by posting this offer so I'm living proof. I'm just saying we're ready to admit it and work it out. M'kay? Good intentions mean jack, if when those intentions are put into action, theyre put into action so poorly. Everyone makes mistakes, except when mistakes are made in eve it is only your customers who suffer. Your GM department takes a 'Guilty untill he proves himself innocent' policy, I've lost count of the number of times friends have had their accounts suspended for "I dont even know why I am banned! All 5 of my accounts, I cant log in to find out why, the website isnt working properly and CCP's mailserver is RBL'd again!!!! Anyone got a GM on msn???" Im sure bush has the best of intentions too! Originally by: CCP Oveur I'm very sorry w0rmy, I beg your forgiveness. Originally by: Dianabolic I was never sworn to secrecy, w0rmy, sorry to dissappoint you.
Matata Hakuna	Posted - 2007.09.13 09:08:00 - [290] This reminds me of the CCP name screwup. They just went on name-changing rampage without consulting anyone. CCP is still very immature company in terms or customer relations. What they fail to realise is that customer is the king and they should be eternaly gratefull to all of their paying customers. Very often they act as if we should be the gratefull ones for being allowed to play their mother-of-all-games. It is better to let 5 isk sellers unpunished then to punish an innocent and honest player. Sometimes I wonder why do we even bother trying to save EVE from all of CCP screwups. And yes, their current strategy on dealing with isk sellers is just plain retarted.

Omega Sinner	Posted - 2007.09.13 09:11:00 - [291] Roflmfaro...I love that post...too true... like he said intention may be good but really there only intentions..and when put in to poor practice then there nolonger good intentions are they....
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.09.13 09:11:00 - [292] I have to say I have recieved better service from CCP than any other MMO company. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
RedLion Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.13 09:13:00 - [293] Well I think we customers should have the right to: 1. Not be framed for anything we haven't done, whatsoever. 2. Be reimbursed for all items lost due to CCP bugs. I don't support isk selling, but heck, I rather allow it than getting innocent people pay for icelandic fail(tm). - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The Gallenteans must be destroyed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
w0rmy M. Corp M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.09.13 09:14:00 - [294] Originally by: Matata Hakuna This reminds me of the CCP name screwup. They just went on name-changing rampage without consulting anyone. Ahhh yes, and the changing of some corps names... That was all handled so brilliantly Originally by: CCP Oveur I'm very sorry w0rmy, I beg your forgiveness. Originally by: Dianabolic I was never sworn to secrecy, w0rmy, sorry to dissappoint you.
Omega Sinner	Posted - 2007.09.13 09:14:00 - [295] not me mine hasn't been all bad but I've gotten way better service out of other mmo's which will remain nameless
RedLion Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.13 09:18:00 - [296] Originally by: Laboratus I have to say I have recieved better service from CCP than any other MMO company. Many people say WoW has bad support. Well shoot me if I'm wrong but: CCP don't have phone support. CCP have 20 times slower GM response than Blizzard. CCPs GMs are not customer orientated. CCP does not protect the individual player/character. NO doubt there still is service provided from CCP. And some GMs are doing a great job, but that CCPs support is better than any other mmorpg company.. Well it's hard to get an objective discussion here, it will only get painted by fanbois. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The Gallenteans must be destroyed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

CCP Prism X	Posted - 2007.09.13 09:21:00 - [297] Omega, can you please post the relevant information here. I saw it was already posted yesterday but now that I'm no longer trying to sleep it's gone. Mailing it to Kieron or Wrangler would be the proper way to go about things after the second petition but there is no point in mailing to them since we're already going well beyond the scope of our process by involving me. ~ Prism X Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006.

Cornucopian Gallente Dutch Omega United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.13 09:52:00 - [298] Originally by: RedLion Originally by: Laboratus I have to say I have recieved better service from CCP than any other MMO company. Many people say WoW has bad support. Well shoot me if I'm wrong but: CCP don't have phone support. CCP have 20 times slower GM response than Blizzard. CCPs GMs are not customer orientated. CCP does not protect the individual player/character. NO doubt there still is service provided from CCP. And some GMs are doing a great job, but that CCPs support is better than any other mmorpg company.. Well it's hard to get an objective discussion here, it will only get painted by fanbois. agreed. I dont think CCP needs phone support though: that usually devolves into something like, 'we cannot help you but are very sorry, now ** off, and have a nice day!' ----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer." Originally by:** Royaldo complete win by Cornucopian!

CCP Prism X	Posted - 2007.09.13 15:46:00 - [299] Well this backfired big time. Here I was hoping I could show how much we care by helping out a player in need and get the protocols revised some for good measures. I still cannot divulge any information about our methods. I'm bound by NDAs to not release any information that could be considered confidential information. This leads me to believe that you are all going to hate me from this day forward. Fact of the matter is the contract the OP mentions was never reversed. The reason for this loss ISK from the character in question was due to a considerable player donation, from a known and banned ISK seller, which occurred before said contract. Coincidentally that was the exact same amount as the contract in question yielded the player in question which created this misunderstanding. Further investigation into this matter revealed even further connections with known, and already banned, ISK sellers and we acted on that according to our protocols. I'm absolutely certain that Sinner, and Sheylyn, acted on the best of intentions on behalf of their friend and I can only assume they didn't possess this information beforehand. However, this case is as blatant as they come. There's no doubt when we're talking about such sums of ISK repeatedly donated from known sellers (and let me state again that known ISK sellers are banned once they become known). If the character in question is unhappy with this resolution he will have to go through the correct channels like everyone else and I will stay true to my promise of never doing this again as it really didn't have the results I had hoped for. Results aside I have lived up to my promise so from my end the matter is dead. ~ Prism X EvE Lead Database Developer, Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006.


GM Nova Game Masters	Posted - 2007.09.13 15:50:00 - [300] Omega wanted a public inquiry, here it is. His "friend" bought ISK for real money and got busted and that ISK was removed. Looking at his "friend's" wallet more closely we discovered that he had bought over ten billion ISK and thanks to Omega, his "friend" has received a two week vacation from EVE and a hefty negative balance. No market transaction was reversed nor any contract. In fact, we simply do not do that, unless an ISK seller accepts a one trit contract for a billion ISK. This sort of slander, misinformation and outright lies is sickening. Who of you reading this like receiving ISK seller mails? Who likes to see "Hello friend, visit www.idiotiskbuyersareus.com for cheap ISK" mails in chat channels? Well you can thank Omega Sinner and his "friend" for that spam since by buying ISk they are directly responsible for it.


Eemaavi Amarr	Posted - 2007.09.13 15:55:00 - [301] Originally by: Omega Sinner I am against isk sellers and items sellers..But to have a gm tell you that your selling your stuff to a known isk seller on an open contract when you have no idea who is buying your stuff. Is completly worse then isk sellers by far. Don't come here and ***** just yet Escalate it to a Senior GM.. Yeah I'm an Alt- Go cry elswhere
CharlieMurphy Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.09.13 16:07:00 - [302] Originally by: CCP Prism X I still cannot divulge any information about our methods. I'm bound by NDAs to not release any information that could be considered confidential information. This leads me to believe that you are all going to hate me from this day forward. i wouldnt worry about it too much, it was nice that you took enough of an interest to post and try and help somebody out Originally by: CCP Prism X I'm absolutely certain that Sinner, and Sheylyn, acted on the best of intentions on behalf of their friend and I can only assume they didn't possess this information beforehand some people would have been less kind on that score, but then again you would have to be monumentaly stupid to really try to bluff it out when your friend has over 10 bil of bought isk in his wallet name and shame i say who was this "friend" and what alliance is he in ?
Omega Sinner	Posted - 2007.09.13 19:19:00 - [303] Edited by: Omega Sinner on 13/09/2007 19:23:00 Really I don't know who to believe I know my friend is very good with the market..and i mean dam good with it at finding deal and reselling items.. But what I wonder is how much atm is ccp or the gm's trying to cover there tracks just by saying this so that things will not exploded out bigger... its to convenient to say something like that..aswell..it smashes everything that was being said..well almost everthing.. I know my friend is really good with market at buying and re selling an he's been a 3 + year toon which isn't hard to build up 10 bill in that time period more than once..plus how did he go from 1.01 bill...to neg 900 mill..if he had 10 bill?? its till doesn't answer all the questions...is he buying isk maybe it wouldn't suprise me.. but at the sametime are the gm's just saying this casue he uses the market and trading in amoungst his toons alot and there just trying to stop the real problem..kinda like I hang my head inshame but...but what they did with BoB...oh gawd I can't believe I went there... its still poses question after question...who's telling the truth and who is not.. again the gm's are saying he baught but were's there proof..is it there word?? and here's the other thing the apperantly known isk seller is still playing the game.... I don't post toon names that way i can't get in trouble..but I know it and he's still playing... its kinda troublsome I want to believe my friend at his word.. but at the sametime I want to believe ccp or the gm's wouldn't mislead the comunity aswell..
Jimer Lins Gallente Sanctuary	Posted - 2007.09.13 19:35:00 - [304] Edited by: Jimer Lins on 13/09/2007 19:35:46 CCP 'Banhammer' Research Cannon II perfectly strikes Sob Story <ISK>, wrecking for 10 billion credibility damage. CCP 'Banhammer' Research Cannon II deactivates as target Sob Story <ISK> is no longer credible. SEARCh- we find sites for you!
Sheylyn	Posted - 2007.09.13 19:42:00 - [305] Thank you Prism for the time you spent on looking into this matter and quick responce back to us, it wasn't what I expected outcome wise. I too have to agree with Omega thou. No hard feelings to anyone, and thank you to all that posted. I'm shutting up now
Nyphur Pillowsoft Total Comfort	Posted - 2007.09.13 19:47:00 - [306] Originally by: GM Nova Omega wanted a public inquiry, here it is. I do so love it when people waive their privacy policy privileges :). The reason that some credability is always given to stories like the one in this thread is that as I understand it, the privacy policy prohibits GMs from coming onto the forum and telling the story as it happened - because punishments are between the GM and the person who got punished. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Tentacle Girl	Posted - 2007.09.13 19:51:00 - [307] Edited by: Tentacle Girl on 13/09/2007 19:52:33 In soviet russia.... GM petition player! In soviet russia.... Player ban GM!
Jelek Coro Caldari Ordo Templi Orientis Daikoku Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.09.13 20:16:00 - [308] Owned Isk buyers are just as bad as the sellers
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.13 20:28:00 - [309] Thank for the update, Prism. I hope now this thread will die.
Scrolizer	Posted - 2007.09.13 20:43:00 - [310] I think it's right because -> If I buy some ISK, seller can do following: I go to a mission with him, he gives me an item for 500mil isk. -> he puts it into container. I pick it, then in few days I try to contract the thing and wait till the seller buys it. :) If GMs can find above cases...good for all of us.

Xaroth Brook Minmatar Doomcraft Mech Ops Syndicate	Posted - 2007.09.13 20:44:00 - [311] Originally by: RedLion Originally by: Laboratus I have to say I have recieved better service from CCP than any other MMO company. Many people say WoW has bad support. Well shoot me if I'm wrong but: CCP don't have phone support. CCP have 20 times slower GM response than Blizzard. CCPs GMs are not customer orientated. CCP does not protect the individual player/character. NO doubt there still is service provided from CCP. And some GMs are doing a great job, but that CCPs support is better than any other mmorpg company.. Well it's hard to get an objective discussion here, it will only get painted by fanbois. 1) Why do i want to call ccp? 2) Actually, that just depends on the time and place, all petitions i've made in the past were dealt with within an hour time, whereas in wow you wait for 5 hours for a response, log out for 10 seconds then get some automated crapmail saying you were offline when they tried to reach you. 3) In a way, the GM's are also customers, since they play this game as well, so how can they not be customer orientated... same goes for the last one.. why would they do the opposite of the things they would want themselves when they are playing? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Xaroth Brook CEO Doomcraft -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Look ma, my sig is too good to be highjacked by the mods
Hyuuga Veralis Pator Tech School	Posted - 2007.09.13 20:48:00 - [312] Can Omega please be banned for calling characters 'toons' over and over? It's quiet vulgar and demeaning to myself and other EVE players to be given such a label. -------------- Fulfilling 0.0 Ammo needs since 2 days after being made.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.13 20:53:00 - [313] Originally by: Omega Sinner Edited by: Omega Sinner on 13/09/2007 19:31:00 Edited by: Omega Sinner on 13/09/2007 19:23:00 Really I don't know who to believe I know my friend is very good with the market..and i mean dam good with it at finding deal and reselling items.. But what I wonder is how much atm is ccp or the gm's trying to cover there tracks just by saying this so that things will not exploded out bigger... its to convenient to say something like that..aswell..it smashes everything that was being said..well almost everthing.. I know my friend is really good with market at buying and re selling an he's been a 3 + year toon which isn't hard to build up 10 bill in that time period more than once..plus how did he go from 1.01 bill...to neg 900 mill..if he had 10 bill?? its till doesn't answer all the questions...is he buying isk maybe it wouldn't suprise me.. but at the sametime are the gm's just saying this casue he uses the market and trading in amoungst his toons alot and there just trying to stop the real problem..kinda like I hang my head inshame but...but what they did with BoB...oh gawd I can't believe I went there... its still poses question after question...who's telling the truth and who is not.. again the gm's are saying he baught but were's there proof..is it there word?? and here's the other thing the apperantly known isk seller is still playing the game.... I don't post toon names that way i can't get in trouble..but I know it and he's still playing... its kinda troublsome I want to believe my friend at his word.. but at the sametime I want to believe ccp or the gm's wouldn't mislead the comunity aswell.. and Gm Nova your a arrogant na nevermind someone stupid enough to point out the obvious like you just falls into your trap.... Prism X much better at customer relations than you that is also what I'm talking about... Better training for the stupid gm's... and prism X thanxs for your help even if what you say might only be true and might not..no hack on you.. See gm nova your just trying to make me the fall guy here..I wanted a public inquiry I got but it seems to convinent on your part.. Mate, a word of advice: when you're in deep - stop digging. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.13 20:54:00 - [314] Originally by: Nyphur Edited by: Nyphur on 13/09/2007 19:49:56 Originally by: GM Nova Omega wanted a public inquiry, here it is. I do so love it when people waive their privacy policy privileges :). The reason that some credability is always given to stories like the one in this thread is that as I understand it, the privacy policy prohibits GMs from coming onto the forum and telling the story as it happened - because punishments are between the GM and the person who got punished. EDIT: I think you may have unintentionally crossed a line, though. You're either violating the privacy policy by allowing one person to request a public investigation of another's punishment or you've confirmed that omega and the person that got banned are one and the same, which links a character to another by the same owner. What characters are owned by a person is confidential account information. On the other hand: good! CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
dor amwar Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.09.13 20:57:00 - [315] this is not meant as a judgment either way. what i think when i read this and it's conclusion is, ccp has lied before. omega has not as far as i know.
Nyphur Pillowsoft Total Comfort	Posted - 2007.09.13 21:05:00 - [316] Edited by: Nyphur on 13/09/2007 21:05:38 Originally by: dor amwar this is not meant as a judgment either way. what i think when i read this and it's conclusion is, ccp has lied before. omega has not as far as i know. CCP isn't a single giant person. GM Nova has never lied to the eve community before and neither has PrismX. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
dor amwar Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.09.13 21:14:00 - [317] Originally by: Nyphur Edited by: Nyphur on 13/09/2007 21:05:38 Originally by: dor amwar this is not meant as a judgment either way. what i think when i read this and it's conclusion is, ccp has lied before. omega has not as far as i know. CCP isn't a single giant person. GM Nova has never lied to the eve community before and neither has PrismX. this was not meant as an attack on either. i think prismX went above and beyond and thank him for his efforts. just what i was thinking while read the responses which left a lingering doubt.
Nyphur Pillowsoft Total Comfort	Posted - 2007.09.13 21:25:00 - [318] Originally by: dor amwar this was not meant as an attack on either. i think prismX went above and beyond and thank him for his efforts. just what i was thinking while read the responses which left a lingering doubt. There will always be that doubt and people who have something against CCP will always try to play on it. Omega, for example, bought 10b isk and got busted and is now trying to sully GM's reputations based entirely on that little sliver of doubt that even the most sensible player has. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
RedLion Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.13 21:48:00 - [319] If I seel 1 trit for a ****load of money, how can CCP punish me? O.o - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The Gallenteans must be destroyed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Omega Sinner	Posted - 2007.09.13 21:51:00 - [320] Originally by: Hyuuga Veralis Can Omega please be banned for calling characters 'toons' over and over? It's quiet vulgar and demeaning to myself and other EVE players to be given such a label. holy crap now thats just stupid ^^^^^^... and in the end I'm not the offending toon... if my friend did by isk bad on him really bad... but if he didn't and this is just a way to cover it up bad on ccp.. But in the end I thank Prisim X for even trying in the first place. something else no other gm even bothered to step forward and try to do.. and for the TOON which players have called there characters since the start of mmo's just lose yourself again..

Thanos Draicon	Posted - 2007.09.13 22:02:00 - [321] Originally by: Omega Sinner Originally by: Hyuuga Veralis Can Omega please be banned for calling characters 'toons' over and over? It's quiet vulgar and demeaning to myself and other EVE players to be given such a label. holy crap now thats just stupid ^^^^^^... and in the end I'm not the offending toon... if my friend did by isk bad on him really bad... but if he didn't and this is just a way to cover it up bad on ccp.. But in the end I thank Prisim X for even trying in the first place. something else no other gm even bothered to step forward and try to do.. and for the TOON which players have called there characters since the start of mmo's just lose yourself again.. WTF. By this definition if someone is audited, it could be a giant conspiracy inside the US Government working with the IRS. Just accept it, man. Your buddy bought ISK, and he got banned. There is no coverup, there are no greedy GMs coveting his precious trade business, no shady developers hiding in your closet, he bought isk. Simple as that. Your buddy lied to you, and he's not going to admit it now and make himself look like an untrustworthy bastard.
Devian 666 Sectoid Technologies	Posted - 2007.09.13 22:40:00 - [322] You got the investigation that you asked for. It appears that your mate has not been that forthcoming with the truth. Perhaps he should revise his trading strategy given that's he's needed to buy 10b isk. That and if he wanted isk the secure gtc trade is very effective. Thank you to CCP for the investigation. I agree I don't have the features to be a holoreel star. Most people have missed the point that this is Mobsters Online and that carebears are at the bottom of the foodchain.
Standard Deviation	Posted - 2007.09.13 22:42:00 - [323] 10bn isk someone cares way to much about internet spaceships. You could buy a lot RL stuff for what it would cost to buy 10bn.
Cadela Fria Amarr Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.09.13 22:53:00 - [324] Originally by: Omega Sinner Originally by: Hyuuga Veralis Can Omega please be banned for calling characters 'toons' over and over? It's quiet vulgar and demeaning to myself and other EVE players to be given such a label. holy crap now thats just stupid ^^^^^^... and in the end I'm not the offending toon... if my friend did by isk bad on him really bad... but if he didn't and this is just a way to cover it up bad on ccp.. But in the end I thank Prisim X for even trying in the first place. something else no other gm even bothered to step forward and try to do.. and for the TOON which players have called there characters since the start of mmo's just lose yourself again.. I was going to be polite about my response as much as possible..but you make it nigh impossible. "If my friend bought bad isk..." "Maybe this is just a coverup by CCP..." What the hell???? Are you serious??? I don't even have a proper rebuttal that covers all of your idiocy...You're...I mean..you...how can you......LISTEN TO YOURSELF! You're a joke! Knowledge is a priviledge, not a right
Cynical Attitude	Posted - 2007.09.13 22:56:00 - [325] Quote: I know my friend is very good with the market..and i mean dam good with it at finding deal and reselling items.. If he's that good, why did he need to buy 10bn ISK? Or is his "I'm real good at playing the market" line just his cover story for his ISK buying? Quote: But what I wonder is how much atm is ccp or the gm's trying to cover there tracks Oh, puh-lease, you're "CCP is lying" position is no longer even remotely tenable, not that it ever was, TBH. Quote: plus how did he go from 1.01 bill...to neg 900 mill..if he had 10 bill?? Ya got me there, your friend is clearly capable of losing ISK on an epic scale, odd for someone supposedly so good at playing the market. Quote: its still poses question after question...who's telling the truth and who is not. Nope, I think we've all made up our minds on that score. Quote: again the gm's are saying he baught but were's there proof..is it there word?? They say the logs show him receiving 10bn ISK from a known ISK seller - that's good enough for me. Short of them cutting and pasting the logs into this thread, what more proof do you need? Quote: and here's the other thing the apperantly known isk seller is still playing the game. I think you're confusing 2 characters - the known ISK seller is the guy who sold your friend 10bn ISK, the guy who bought the BS off him is someone else entirely. Your friend, not having told you about his ISK-buying habit (some friend, that) clearly won't have told you the ISK sellers name, so you can't actually know if he's still playing the game, can you?
Cadela Fria Amarr Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.09.13 23:03:00 - [326] Originally by: Cynical Attitude Quote: I know my friend is very good with the market..and i mean dam good with it at finding deal and reselling items.. If he's that good, why did he need to buy 10bn ISK? Or is his "I'm real good at playing the market" line just his cover story for his ISK buying? Quote: But what I wonder is how much atm is ccp or the gm's trying to cover there tracks Oh, puh-lease, you're "CCP is lying" position is no longer even remotely tenable, not that it ever was, TBH. Quote: plus how did he go from 1.01 bill...to neg 900 mill..if he had 10 bill?? Ya got me there, your friend is clearly capable of losing ISK on an epic scale, odd for someone supposedly so good at playing the market. Quote: its still poses question after question...who's telling the truth and who is not. Nope, I think we've all made up our minds on that score. Quote: again the gm's are saying he baught but were's there proof..is it there word?? They say the logs show him receiving 10bn ISK from a known ISK seller - that's good enough for me. Short of them cutting and pasting the logs into this thread, what more proof do you need? Quote: and here's the other thing the apperantly known isk seller is still playing the game. I think you're confusing 2 characters - the known ISK seller is the guy who sold your friend 10bn ISK, the guy who bought the BS off him is someone else entirely. Your friend, not having told you about his ISK-buying habit (some friend, that) clearly won't have told you the ISK sellers name, so you can't actually know if he's still playing the game, can you? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ You Sir! Are made of pure awesomeness..thank you for putting my thoughts to words <3 Knowledge is a priviledge, not a right
Omega Sinner	Posted - 2007.09.13 23:13:00 - [327] Your right...its not like ccp or gm's have made mistakes before... I didn't mean its a cover up but ppl wanted the truth to from me proof from me wanted me to post copys of the logs.. so why not show were they came to the conculsion.. Send me an email showing me how you came to this conculsion U know my account you know my email addy... its fair you were sent one showing pictures please show me were in his logs you found him buying isk please. flame if you want because I'm asking for proof besides there word..
Vrizuh Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.13 23:21:00 - [328] Edited by: Vrizuh on 13/09/2007 23:24:51 Originally by: RedLion Originally by: Laboratus I have to say I have recieved better service from CCP than any other MMO company. Many people say WoW has bad support. Well shoot me if I'm wrong but: CCP don't have phone support. CCP have 20 times slower GM response than Blizzard. CCPs GMs are not customer orientated. CCP does not protect the individual player/character. NO doubt there still is service provided from CCP. And some GMs are doing a great job, but that CCPs support is better than any other mmorpg company.. Well it's hard to get an objective discussion here, it will only get painted by fanbois. GMs response time in Eve is pretty bad, but Ive never played an MMO with fast response time for anything other than stuck queues. The OP shook my confidence in the GMs. PrismX and GM Nova have it completely restored, I'd believe them first. I don't know much about the CCP GMs, but they appear to know the game, know the language, and be located within the same location as the actual game developer. Level 1 GMs in Eve are like senior GMs elsewhere. At least, that is my opinion. Quote: Your right...its not like ccp or gm's have made mistakes before... I didn't mean its a cover up but ppl wanted the truth to from me proof from me wanted me to post copys of the logs.. so why not show were they came to the conculsion.. Send me an email showing me how you came to this conculsion U know my account you know my email addy... its fair you were sent one showing pictures please show me were in his logs you found him buying isk please. flame if you want because I'm asking for proof besides there word.. You know they can't do this. Privacy laws mean MMOs always have to endure the crap that gets thrown at them. If they say it was a donation and not a contract, understand that their ability to lie, and their willingness to do so when a player can prove otherwise, is not at the level you accuse them of. Itd be a PR disaster to have a public bannination go wrong. It'd be a PR apocalypse to have a company bold faced lie about it. Especially when they don't know whether the banned individual would be willing to go to court over it. After all, calling him a liar hurts his public image. They'd need proof. Just let it go. Your friend lied about his financial records. Maybe he was a good trader, where did he get his capital? An IPO? Grinding? Or did he take a shortcut?
Cadela Fria Amarr Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.09.13 23:23:00 - [329] Edited by: Cadela Fria on 13/09/2007 23:26:43 You just don't give up do you? I mean you quite blatantly, publically and thoroughly got WTFPWNED all the way out of the solar system, but here you are, still going at it..you're amazing Originally by: Omega Sinner Your right...its not like ccp or gm's have made mistakes before... Of course they have, BUT THIS ISNT ONE OF THEM! Deal with it! You lost, it's over, period, finito, gone, done, hasta la pizza! Originally by: Omega Sinner I didn't mean its a cover up but ppl wanted the truth to from me proof from me wanted me to post copys of the logs.. Thats breaking the NDA and that's not happening. Heck they even found more stuff thanks to you. Just get over it and face the fact that proof was found, more proof was found and just because you won't accept defeat after you have been so thoroughly mopped on the floor, it won't change reality dude. Originally by: Omega Sinner so why not show were they came to the conculsion.. NDA, period. Originally by: Omega Sinner Send me an email showing me how you came to this conculsion U know my account you know my email addy... its fair you were sent one showing pictures please show me were in his logs you found him buying isk please. What makes you think you're so special you get to bypass the NDA and get those logs? Nobody ever has before, why should you? Who are you? Why do you need logs? If you believe they're lying in the first place, the next thing you'll say is "Oh those logs are fabricated" - Hypothetically if you got them that is, because you won't. The NDA is the NDA is the NDA. LEARN! Originally by: Omega Sinner flame if you want because I'm asking for proof besides there word.. You have your proof, now shrink away into obscurity kthxbai. Knowledge is a priviledge, not a right
Texaskidd Caldari Zimm's Roughnecks	Posted - 2007.09.13 23:49:00 - [330] Edited by: Texaskidd on 13/09/2007 23:50:38 What are you talking about? Eve, its coders, techs, database team, down to the janitor that mops the floor at night, never have, never will be, WRONG! but thats what I belive. "I would rather be hated for who I am, than Loved for who Im not."

Omega Sinner	Posted - 2007.09.14 00:44:00 - [331] all I'm asking is for the proof besides there word.. if my friend baught isk like they say then he was stupid..and desevres what he got... I just want to see it with my own 2 eyes, whats wrong with asking for that..
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.09.14 01:00:00 - [332] As per GM Nova, your friend has been given a 2 week temp ban. When that 2 weeks is up your friend can post his full api key if he wants the community to review his entire transaction history. If your friend really wants to prove his innocence, then he should be willing to offer some evidence of his innocence. While I strongly believe in the principle of innocent until proven guilty. I also believe in a right to privacy. CCP should not devulge your friends financial history without his participation. That reason in addition to their non-disclosure policy about anti-ISK seller methods is a legitimate reason for leaving things as they stand. If you do not wish to disclose the API key to the entire community, then perhaps to some trusted members of the community who you believe could provide an unbiased audit of his transaction history. If the claim is true, 10 billion ISK should not be hard to spot. I would say that the next move in this case belongs to your friend. ************************** Ki Tech Industries - Bond Offer
Zantrei Kordisin True Centii	Posted - 2007.09.14 01:01:00 - [333] Originally by: Omega Sinner Edited by: Omega Sinner on 14/09/2007 00:54:30 all I'm asking is for the proof besides there word.. if my friend baught isk like they say then he was stupid..and desevres what he got... I just want to see it with my own 2 eyes, whats wrong with asking for that.. and I don't care about defeat..if it is what they say it is then so be it.. I deserve the proof on the fact that I started this and want a conculsion I saw his logs sent to me by him I want to see there logs that show he was in the wrong.. If he misslead me then shame on him for not fully devulging the truth to me.. Dude... ...If this is someone else, why do you care so much? Something says it is someone else. If it is you, why aren't you using a petition instead of making yourself look like a ****** on the forums?
Omega Sinner	Posted - 2007.09.14 01:02:00 - [334] Originally by: Ki Tarra As per GM Nova, your friend has been given a 2 week temp ban. When that 2 weeks is up your friend can post his full api key if he wants the community to review his entire transaction history. If your friend really wants to prove his innocence, then he should be willing to offer some evidence of his innocence. While I strongly believe in the principle of innocent until proven guilty. I also believe in a right to privacy. CCP should not devulge your friends financial history without his participation. That reason in addition to their non-disclosure policy about anti-ISK seller methods is a legitimate reason for leaving things as they stand. If you do not wish to disclose the API key to the entire community, then perhaps to some trusted members of the community who you believe could provide an unbiased audit of his transaction history. If the claim is true, 10 billion ISK should not be hard to spot. I would say that the next move in this case belongs to your friend. agreed...
Nyphur Pillowsoft Total Comfort	Posted - 2007.09.14 01:08:00 - [335] Originally by: Omega Sinner all I'm asking is for the proof besides there word.. I just want to see it with my own 2 eyes, whats wrong with asking for that.. Because what you're asking for is to know HOW they can conclusively label your friend as an isk-buyer, which would reveal trade secrets and is not allowed under the dev and gm NDA. And for good reason, too. It would allow isk-buyers to evade GMs better. YOU are going to have to take a leap of faith here, and trust me it's a tiny leap, more of a small hop of faith. Trust that the entire GM and developer staff of CCP are not trying to ban your friend for no reason and then cover it up. Do you have any idea how silly that sounds? You aren't even entitled to a developer or gm reply here and you got not only that but also a full investigation with full disclosure on the findings. The only thing you can say against it is that you don't trust GM Nova and quite frankly, that's tough ****. If you can't trust that the GMs and devs aren't trying to screw over players unfairly and cover it up, you should quit this game. I wouldn't play a game where I couldn't trust the developers enough to take their word for it on issues like this and I don't expect anyone else would. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Devian 666 Sectoid Technologies	Posted - 2007.09.14 01:34:00 - [336] Edited by: Devian 666 on 14/09/2007 01:34:04 Nymphur has said it. If you play the game you want it to be fun and fair for the players. The only ones going to be targeted are the ones doing things that are not in the spirit of the game. Your friend has some explaining to do. I agree I don't have the features to be a holoreel star. Most people have missed the point that this is Mobsters Online and that carebears are at the bottom of the foodchain.
Steel Tigeress Gallente Steel-Wolfs	Posted - 2007.09.14 02:49:00 - [337] I find this thread verry entertaining. But what I find interesting is that he knows who the ISK seller/buyer or whatever is, and says he's still in the game. Or maybe Omega's friend was not banned because somone else who bought isk bought a ship off him, I think he may have been banned for buying ISK to finance these market endeavors in the first place. Dunno, which side to place my bets on, as I think its odd that CCP says he bought 10bn ISK, but then only penalize him the same ammount as a ship he sold, and not penalize him 10bn.....
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.14 03:16:00 - [338] Originally by: Ki Tarra When that 2 weeks is up your friend can post his full api key if he wants the community to review his entire transaction history.... If you do not wish to disclose the API key to the entire community, then perhaps to some trusted members of the community who you believe could provide an unbiased audit of his transaction history. If the claim is true, 10 billion ISK should not be hard to spot. I would say that the next move in this case belongs to your friend. That is a good use for the API key, and a great idea in general I'd say.
Thanos Draicon	Posted - 2007.09.14 03:17:00 - [339] Originally by: Omega Sinner Edited by: Omega Sinner on 14/09/2007 01:00:46 all I'm asking is for the proof besides there word.. if my friend baught isk like they say then he was stupid..and desevres what he got... I just want to see it with my own 2 eyes, whats wrong with asking for that.. Dude, don't you get it? They aren't legally allowed to show you proof because it breaks the privacy between the GMs and your friend. It doesn't matter that he's your buddy, it doesn't matter if you're the best of friends and have been forever and ever. They cannot break their contract. That's why they can't show you proof. Honestly, if you believe this isn't for legal reasons and part of some grand conspiracy, you really should just go live in a bunker now and save yourself some time.
Vrizuh	Posted - 2007.09.14 05:25:00 - [340] Ah, looks like CCP get bonus or releasing API keys. Now the onus is on the player to divulge the privacy information. Can a banned account login and get an API key though?

CHIKA QRE	Posted - 2007.09.14 08:29:00 - [341] Edited by: CHIKA QRE on 14/09/2007 08:28:58 Edited by: CHIKA QRE on 14/09/2007 08:28:45 Originally by: Devian 666 Edited by: Devian 666 on 14/09/2007 01:34:04 If you play the game you want it to be fun and fair for the players. The only ones going to be targeted are the ones doing things that are not in the spirit of the game. Hmmm.. yeah right... CCP is famous for that... fairness...
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.09.14 09:05:00 - [342] So this one's risen to the surface again hey? And the character in question was guilty? Meh, maybe giving myself an e-peen increase but who cares. To quote myself from page one, Quote: For the record, I'm not saying that the OP bought ISK, he just hasn't completely debunked that possibility. And guess what? He never did. And thanks to CCP's investigation he's been proven to have lied to the entire community. Now for God's sake everyone, take this sort of impartiality if this sort of thing crops up again. There's probably a dozens of players now running round who didn't follow this topic right through to this point, thinking "Oh noes! CCP will remove my ISK for selling stuff!", so if a similar situation comes up, there'll be the cohorts again chanting about baseless 'CCP corruption'. Improve Market Competition!
CharlieMurphy Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.09.14 09:40:00 - [343] hmmm there are still somethings about this that dont quite add up imo.... for starters 10 bil??? what kind of person buys that kind of isk? from what i can see thats $460 minimum, personally i think anybody that would spend that for game money is funny in the head this NDA... i understand the reasons why there is one but for me the problem arises when somebody is accused of something and they say they didnt do it the GM says yes you did and the next response is show me proof, perfectly natural thing to ask for... but NDA prevents us from showing proof - thats wrong, you cant accuse and then hide behind the NDA when asked to back up the accusation and my apologys to all the fanbois but "because the GM said so it must be truth" doesnt cut it Omega Sinner... if this really was just a scam attempt to get somebodys ill gotten isk back i would have expected him to just go quietly away when the truth came out but instead hes still here under all the flames and derision simply asking for proof - not really much to ask for imo and im sure that if it was one of you people flaming that had got banned you would be asking for proof aswell now maybe the NDA prevents this proof being released to Omega but the "friend" will be back in 2 weeks and i feel hes entitiled to it, so maybe we will all find out then in my mind there is only 1 way you can conclusively prove that isk has been bought and that is to prove that real life cash has changed hands and all the game logs in eve can never prove that will be very interesting to see if the "friend" will step up and defend himself over this
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.09.14 10:03:00 - [344] Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 14/09/2007 10:04:56 Quote: but NDA prevents us from showing proof - thats wrong, you cant accuse and then hide behind the NDA when asked to back up the accusation Why? Who here has any right to this confidential information, or more importantly can establish a 'Need to know'? The player base does not need to know. Honestly, that's ridiculous. If CCP released that information the person who's had their 10 bil removed could sue CCP's ass off for defamation and a whole swag of other stuff. And his mate's really convinced that his mate is innocent? Well no ***. The isk buyer's probably been lying to everyone here, because unlike CCP, who has at the very least minimal* requirements to ensure transparency, the ISK buyer has ABSOLUTELY NO requirement to tell the truth whatsoever, and never will, so welcome to the double edged sword of running a company, because everyone loves to think they know better. I convinced my entire circle of friends, after hearing of this idea on the radio, that George Foreman had no fingerprints, resulting from a griller accident in a commercial shoot. When I pushed the story beyond my social circle, with people doubting it, my friends came in "with the facts" which were quite simply lies I'd told them. Even when someone said they heard about the joke on the radio people still wanted to believe it, and other people reported 'as fact' my lies. It was only when someone had a recording of the actual radio piece that the plot fell over. Point being in absence of any current fact, people will always more readily believe the first person to present information about an issue, which will never be CCP and will always be the perpetrator. It's the sheep that jump on the bandwagon that need to pull their head in more and think about the situation. But meh, as I said, a whole bunch of people are going to run round with tin foil hats because Mr Isk Purchaser doesn't want to admit to a guilty conscience. Which undeniably will never happen. At least CCP can rest easy and have a laugh at others ignorance. EDIT: Oh yeah,, Quote: Omega Sinner... if this really was just a scam attempt to get somebodys ill gotten isk back i would have expected him to just go quietly away when the truth came out You've never seen what happens to a person when someone in a close position of trust does something to completely unexpectedly betray you, like lying about ISK purchases, have you? Omega probably still believes his friend is innocent. Improve Market Competition!
Vrizuh	Posted - 2007.09.14 10:15:00 - [345] Originally by: CharlieMurphy hmmm there are still somethings about this that dont quite add up imo.... for starters 10 bil??? what kind of person buys that kind of isk? from what i can see thats $460 minimum, personally i think anybody that would spend that for game money is funny in the head Back when I was playing Lineage2 (one of the worst victims of farmers out of western-available games imo), my guild leader spent US$2000 for just a month of levelling. It was not all he had spent, it was not all he would spend. He was not alone. That kind of investment was common, VERY common. The money was so good I actually knew Americans who ran levelling & farming services. It was my first MMO and I was so in love with the design and epicness of it all. I can't tell you how much I hated farmers, and how much it hurt to learn that about my leader. He was a good guy. To him, it was like investing in your footy team or whatever. Not like investing in drugs for the team, but in equipment (all the money went towards buying skillpoints for expanding the maximum number of guild members). Yeh, we've all seen what people will spend on second life. I have no belief troubles at all at hearing someone has invested US$2k in eve. This I think should be the principle argument towards making motherships killable in lowsec. A 1 day old char can buy an indestructible ship, provided he understands how to use a cyno.
CharlieMurphy Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.09.14 10:23:00 - [346] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Why? Who here has any right to this confidential information, or more importantly can establish a 'Need to know'? the person who is being accused, like i said in 2 weeks time i expect the "friend" to come forward and put his own case as he is the only person with the right to hear the proof against him or with the right to share it with anybody else
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.09.14 10:29:00 - [347] Originally by: GM Nova Omega wanted a public inquiry, here it is. His "friend" bought ISK for real money and got busted and that ISK was removed. Looking at his "friend's" wallet more closely we discovered that he had bought over ten billion ISK and thanks to Omega, his "friend" has received a two week vacation from EVE and a hefty negative balance. No market transaction was reversed nor any contract. In fact, we simply do not do that, unless an ISK seller accepts a one trit contract for a billion ISK. This sort of slander, misinformation and outright lies is sickening. Who of you reading this like receiving ISK seller mails? Who likes to see "Hello friend, visit www.idiotiskbuyersareus.com for cheap ISK" mails in chat channels? Well you can thank Omega Sinner and his "friend" for that spam since by buying ISk they are directly responsible for it. I don't like the spam of ISK sellers, but removing money from players without a proper explanation to the player is a nono still. If the GM's would have stated in an eve-mail to the players that you are removing ISK from why it was done it would be ALOT clearer and would give the rest of the player community more certainty that if it would happen to them that they would have a proper explanation that they can explain. Currently the situation is that there are way to many stories around that are not verifiable in any way. If CCP would disclose to the isk buyers what happened and why when the money was removed then most probably wouldn't even be so stupid to post on the forums and such and thus provide more certainty to the rest of the playing community. Also this allows you to just copy the responce when threadnaughts like these surface. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Calvin Firenze Minmatar Thanos and Killjoy Productions Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.14 10:38:00 - [348] Edited by: Calvin Firenze on 14/09/2007 10:41:31 Forgive me, I'm not reading the last 5 pages of this thread, its late and I want to go to bed. My translation so far: OP: ZOMG CCP SCREWED ME/MY FRIEND Community:RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE CCP: I'll Help! <OP Disappears> Community: OP's gone, LET'S ARGUE ABOUT SOMETHING! Don't buy ISK. Don't sell ISK. Don't think about selling or buying isk. PS, if you find the guy buying 1 unit of veldspar for half a bil per unit, let me know where to find him, I have a whole hangar full of the stuff and I think with that kind of money, I could have a fleet of noobs to be my drones. Or two chicks at once. EDIT: I think I'm taking a break from forums for awhile too, its all pretty much either whining or smacktalking. All my forum stuffs to PrismX, just because I like turtles. this is not a signature, whatever anyone has told you is false. look away
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.09.14 11:05:00 - [349] Quote: I don't like the spam of ISK sellers, but removing money from players without a proper explanation to the player is a nono still. And this happened? I'm not saying I know what happened step by step but here's what CCP found. A) The guy bought ISK B) CCP removed it. The guy who bought it knew why it got removed from him, I know if one day I bought 2 bil isk, then a week, heck, a month later 2 bil disappeared I'd be saying "Gee, CCP caught up to me". Instead, his mate wrote a sob story about it, whether he knew the truth or not, and the guy who got caught out put up a rubbish story. And as a GM posted somewhere (though where I forget, think it was a devblog), known ISK purchasers will still publicly claim their innocence and petition to have the money back. It might be someone who was unfortunately penalised for the wrong reasons, but it's more likely someone trying to stir **** up. Improve Market Competition!
Grawshellar	Posted - 2007.09.14 11:25:00 - [350] Edited by: Grawshellar on 14/09/2007 11:28:49 Originally by: Vrizuh To him, it was like investing in your footy team or whatever. Not like investing in drugs for the team, but in equipment (all the money went towards buying skillpoints for expanding the maximum number of guild members). Yeh, we've all seen what people will spend on second life. I have no belief troubles at all at hearing someone has invested US$2k in eve. This I think should be the principle argument towards making motherships killable in lowsec. A 1 day old char can buy an indestructible ship, provided he understands how to use a cyno. The biggest problem is that it IS like investing in the football team. You get a group of people together with a common goal, and throw some cash into the mix to make sure they have the best available gear. Hell, I'll be spending $20 in bait and gas money for a day's trip this weekend, and just like in EVE I won't have anything to show for that $20 at the end of the day most likely. Just a story to tell. If buying ISK in eve from ISK sellers wasn't particularly vilified then people wouldn't have a realistic reason to object. That same noob can still buy a character, mothership, and camp lowsec in EVE well within the rules of the game, they just need to use the CCP accepted method(GTC). If CCP doesn't get their proverbial cut, its against the rules. CCP has claimed that they keep GTC selling around so people who can't pay by other methods can still play, IE those players cash(by proxy) > the thought of a week old player buying a character and mothership. On the other hand there is no positive side towards allowing ISK sellers, their camping and cheating causes more disruption then the effort to hunt down and punish those people buying/selling ISK does.


CCP Prism X	Posted - 2007.09.14 11:37:00 - [351] Edited by: CCP Prism X on 14/09/2007 11:37:45 Right, this has gone far enough and I'm locking this. I imagine that's not going to sit well with some people in which case I urge them to read over the forum rules a couple of times. To anyone who might be confused right now: We do not screw out players over intentionally. If you believe you might have been unintentionally wronged you can petition to senior GMs and Internal Affairs and rest assured that any communication between you and CCP officials is confidential. As to the character in question defending himself: He has already chosen to post in this topic from a second account (which is also now banned for purchasing ISK to that account) and rather than defend his actions or offer explanations he chose to slander us. Of course people who already question my credibility will question this statement as well but I can't convince people who've decided I'm not trustworthy to do anything else, such is the nature of trust. Oh, and Grawshellar. I got your mail. No worries, never thought you were out to get me. ~ Prism X EvE Lead Database Developer, Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006.



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