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Crazy Tasty
Beyond Divinity Inc Terra Incognita.
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Posted - 2007.10.27 05:42:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Hydrogen
4. Curse is fine since there is a viable nano/damp/neut setup, but Pilgrim needs to be reworked.
This. Curse can be armor tanked, and use TD's, but you have to pick your targets. With a nano/damp setup you have the greatest range of targets possible, not unlike other ships in the game, disregarding ship bonuses to get the full extent of the ship.
The only issue that needs to be addressed at all is the Pilgrim, its extremely limited in its current state and needs a look by the Devs.
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Caius LiviusCerso
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Posted - 2007.10.27 06:29:00 -
[92]
Thanx for work, its good, I hoe CCP reads it eventualy.
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oniplE
NED-Clan R i s e
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Posted - 2007.10.27 08:57:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Hydrogen Edited by: Hydrogen on 27/10/2007 02:52:26
Originally by: oniplE With the nosnerf its less of a solopwnmobile, but recons are meant to be gang ships, thats why all of the recons have crap damage output, but they all have the ability to tip the scale in gang fights, including the amarr recons.
Well then I suggest you learn about your opponent. An armor tanked, slow blaster or rail Deimos is the worst possible fitting to fight a Curse.
Try your Deimos with a speed tank or try a Nano-Ishtar. You wont even realize your cap is being drained, simply because, when you could need it, the Curse is already gone.
A blaster Deimos with 2 damage mods has 643 dps in T2 fitting. With a speed tank you just close in: Your hybrid alpha and your drone alpha already rip the shield off the Curse. By then it becomes ugly, since you need something along the line of 9 seconds to drop the Curses armor. Since now the Curses repper kicks in, you need 3 seconds more to see a blinking pod of a Curse pilot. That is somethign along the line of 15 seconds total which you need to drop the Curse. In case of a Nano-Ishtar I doubt if you would see your armor scratched even...
Check your fittings - this is no mystery, but common knowledge.
Edit-On a sidenote: A Deimos with 2 damage mods and the rest of lows and rigs for speed, goes at 4,178 m/s - a Curse at 3,847 m/s (max in T2 fitting). Both without implants. If a Curse outruns you, then his setup is pimped, implant and/or faction/deadspace wise. Pointless for you to complain here.
Rail deimos: rare speed tanked deimos : rare
Obviously every idiot can come up with a setup that can kill a curse, its just that your setup will be completely useless against other ships. If its speedtanked it will be paperthin, and unlike the curse its weapons will only start doing damage to the opponent once its near 5k range. It will melt to small gangs in seconds.
Anyway, you are obviously biased and clueness, there is no point in "complaining" here idd cuz its obviously filled with curse fanboys screaming about a ship that used to be a solopwnmobile and now is just a good ship.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Uninvited Guests
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Posted - 2007.10.27 09:05:00 -
[94]
Originally by: oniplE
Originally by: Hydrogen
Anyway, you are obviously biased and clueness, there is no point in "complaining" here idd cuz its obviously filled with curse fanboys screaming about a ship that used to be a solopwnmobile and now is just a good ship.
Every try killing stuff with a pilgrim? I think not.
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Cailais
Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.27 09:42:00 -
[95]
Quote:
Anyway, you are obviously biased and clueness, there is no point in "complaining" here idd cuz its obviously filled with carrier fanboys screaming about a ship that used to be a solopwnmobile and now is just a good ship.
With a small adjustment your view could be applied elsewhere me thinks....
C.
- sig designer - eve mail
Low Sec Idea |
Aramendel
Amarr North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.10.27 09:42:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Hydrogen @Aramendel - I made a mistake. I thought a serious discussion is possible with you, by just ignoring your drama queen attitude.
So we are trying the "injured party" act now?
You are the one who was constantly ignoring what I was writing, with me having to repeat points 2-3 times until you finally aknowledged or even responded to them.
Ignoring the other side is no discussion, it is a monologue.
Quote: http://users.utu.fi/sipesa/eve/index.php?a=topic&threadID=572346 - Tell me, when you stop to change your opinion like Paris Hilton her undies.
Because having a somehwat different opinion over 2 months ago is "changing your opinion like Paris Hilton her undies"? Yes, right.
Actually, it isn't really that different. With the right setups you can counter the nos changes very well with it without turning it into a 5 cap recharge module or permaboosting abomination.
I would still class the curse as overall worst combat recon, but not by much. The soon-to-be damp nerf will reduce the efficienccy differences between it and the gal & minnie recons even further.
The problem with it is not the ship itself, it is its EW. If TDs could relyably disable ALL kinds of turrets the curse would be just fine since this would counter the med slot used by the injector now because it could then use 2 TDs to get the effect of 3 damps. With a even somewhat better performance vs turrets, almost the same performance vs missiles and a somewhat worse performance vs enemy EW.
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oniplE
NED-Clan R i s e
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Posted - 2007.10.27 09:53:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Cailais
Quote:
Anyway, you are obviously biased and clueness, there is no point in "complaining" here idd cuz its obviously filled with carrier fanboys screaming about a ship that used to be a solopwnmobile and now is just a good ship.
With a small adjustment your view could be applied elsewhere me thinks....
C.
Which isnt really an argument for anything related to this subject..
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Hydrogen
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.10.27 10:44:00 -
[98]
Originally by: oniplE
Originally by: Cailais
Quote:
Anyway, you are obviously biased and clueness, there is no point in "complaining" here idd cuz its obviously filled with carrier fanboys screaming about a ship that used to be a solopwnmobile and now is just a good ship.
With a small adjustment your view could be applied elsewhere me thinks....
C.
Which isnt really an argument for anything related to this subject..
Well please look it up again on what I wrote. A blaster Deimos, not a rail Deimos. TBH I do not find a Blaster Deimos a rare occurence at all.
You are perfectly right with the paper-thin tank of a Nano-Deimos. Exactly the same issue is worse for the Curse, as it got less speed potential as the Deimos even.
Yet again: A 1vs1 rail armor tanked Deimos is one of the most favorable targets for a Curse. You are highly cap dependant and tracking disruptors or dampeners deactivate your guns usability by close to 100%. An armor blaster Deimos has the same issues, when it is unable to close in, to get into range - guns are disabled at close to 100%.
Face the truth: Your setup being pwned is not a Curse issue, but a Nano issue. A Nano-Ishtar, in a "Curse" setup can do the exact same to you, except it would be faster in ripping your armor tanked Deimos (no matter if rails or blasters) apart. __
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Tappits
Caldari Do Or Die And Live Or Try The Kano Organisation
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Posted - 2007.10.27 11:42:00 -
[99]
I am a Caldari Pilot and I think Amarr need help Get rid of the nos nerf on the Pilgrim Curse and Bhaalgorn Let the amarr race have some fun for a change.
Expecting some one to completely change race is inconceivable. I am English L5 but their nerft so I am going to train Canadian L5 because theyÆre better WTF.
CCP have gone mad the past few years The only people that say ships or mods are overpowered is because they were solo in some low sec or 0.0 system and got poped. This is a mmo get some friends to help you I am Caldari so cannot solo PvP I donÆt start asking for high slot Disrupters and Webbers ffs I get some one to help me and then we both have fun (thatÆs why we play, for fun)
Give them the nos.
-I suck at pvp but that does not stop me from poping your pod :) |
Hydrogen
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.10.27 12:25:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Hydrogen @Aramendel - I made a mistake. I thought a serious discussion is possible with you, by just ignoring your drama queen attitude.
So we are trying the "injured party" act now?
I like you too ;) __
- click here - |
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Mou'adib
Gallente Ethical Dilemma
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Posted - 2007.10.27 12:35:00 -
[101]
both ships are freaking fine. stop complaining. i fly both. i love both. you all suck
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Depp Knight
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.10.27 13:47:00 -
[102]
Well I use to fly the pilgrim and on rare occasions I would fly a curse. The problem is I rarely have a opportunity to solo, just happens to be that the corp I'm in I am always involved in massive battles, thatÆs something the amarr recons suffer strongly in. I preferred the pilgrim over the curse. I was very attractive to the pilgrim even though the curse was known to be a much better ship. I love the fact how it was a close range ship, a do or die with no flee bonus at all. Also it was such a challenge to fly in large battles and it performed better than the curse cause well it could cloak.
Before nos nerf the pilgrim was fine, yes it had the worst ew bonus and you had to become a very skilful pilot to fly them in both gangs and solo The slot layout and nos bonus just seemed right. I had always used a neut and nos combo. However since nos nerf the pilgrim is completely useless mainly due to cap issues, tanking problems and the inability to drain the targets cap down to 0. Though you can fit your ship for very strict and certain situations and it can perform brilliant. One of the set-ups that was brought to me involved a purely no dps, heavy tank set-up that relied on breaking the targets lock. But the set up was to tackle a ship and wait for support. Problem is Gal, Caldari recons do that but better.
I have tried tirelessly to come up with a set-up that would let the pilgrim perform like it once could. Though I think I have worked out a fitting that would let the pilgrim perform well, the problem is thatÆs again its only can be used in strict situations and still wont be the good old same pilgrim.
Not to mention that the 100pg increase was brought in to let the pilgrim to fit a cap injector. Cap injectors cost 150pg and takes up a precious mid slot.
The whole point of recons is that I can be used in all situations. Though some recons perform better that others, all can do their part. This was never the case for the amarr recons. It was a solo recon and anything but that, it was very average. Bigger the gang the more useless it had become.
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Depp Knight
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.10.27 13:55:00 -
[103]
Now for the comment on the Deimos. I think oniplE made the comment. You say that the curse gives you the biggest threat? Well of course it would. Pilgrims are used in a very strict environment and the curse just has more flexibility with damps and speed. Your ship relies on cap with everything it does, it needs tracking and optimal to hit, something the amarr recons have bonus to. If anything the amarr recons are designed to kill the deimos and I would be very comfortable despite the nos nerf to take my pilgrim against your deimos.
However, you can counter the amarr recons, eg speed fit or cap injector or both. As long as you can get in range for your blasters and have enough cap through your injector you can burn through the curse. But as you said, then you will become useless in other situations. Well now you can feel what the amarr recon pilots feels like especially the pilgrim pilots. It can only be used in a very precise environment. You may say thatÆs how recons all should operate, but yet all other races can perform greatly in more varied situations.
A basic fitted Deimos can perform well in a lot of situations and a specific fitting can perform amazingly in stricter environments. Though the pilgrim/curse is design to get the upper hand on the Deimos, along with the zealot, eagle, geddon, thron, and other simular ships, it also struggles tremendously against drone, missile and minmie boats.
I have tried so hard to get CCP to notice how badly the pilgrim performs now, I have made a few threads and have been a strong contributor to other threads. However here is the best thread to date. It delivers strong points, though some I disagree in, but at least the heart is in the right place and it should be bumped till there is a change.
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ciapek
Amarr Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.10.27 14:56:00 -
[104]
good job there finally some1 took time to put it here i agree that amarr recons just sux, as amarr recon pilot i think they lost to much since nos nerf ans since that they pretty usseless.
my recon history: since i fly them ive like 20ish kills and 2 pilgrim loses that was prenerf, pretty good ratio we can say buy most kills were from ganks just few solo mostly cruisers, i died 2 times once in gang 2nd time vs BS
my solution for amarr recons, give them pre nos nerf ability of nos use and case is close, since noses were primary weapon we lost all with nerf, give it back just to 2 those ships and we are done on subjct.
neuts wow look ay cure/pilgim cap ammount and recharge time !!!!!! forget about using mwd or tank or even ew - nos was savior
and drones ? 5 t2 meds what damage they do ? 200 dps raw so its like anything special here ?
i still have 4 amarr recons but i dont use to much those, why ? whats the point ? almost died to sabre in it, even neuts/nos combo wont win, or eithther nano and shield tank ( weak tank no ew) or ew and armor tank ( pretty weak and slow)
ppl whined about curse ooverpowered before nerf cause it was good solo pwn mobile ( but still no role ship or decent gang support ship) now vaga is i-win ship no1 crying about it, probably getting more kills than curses ever did, gallente damp works great, solo or in gang, same caldari even after neft either solo or in gang can disable 2-3 targets ( who else can do it ? ) minmatar, web bonus sweet, make web working like nos doeas and you will c 1000 posts about that.
im saving recons for day some1 with brain will make them FORCE COMBAT and FORCE RECON ships back, cause they lost thier force and/or combat strenght
amarr sux anyway, even leftover were taken away, if nothing change i swear the god my all skills i learn only to specialize in amarr ships r wasted and ill cross train anything else. that would be a shame
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madaluap
Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence
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Posted - 2007.10.27 15:13:00 -
[105]
Curse is a very decent recon. Very nice ship.
Why not give the pilgrim a dual range bonus? I doesnt have BS sized drain on its neuts/nos, but it can use them from 60 km range.
Seems like a decent fix. _________________________________________________ Breetime
A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA |
Hydrogen
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.10.27 18:04:00 -
[106]
Originally by: madaluap Curse is a very decent recon. Very nice ship.
Why not give the pilgrim a dual range bonus? I doesnt have BS sized drain on its neuts/nos, but it can use them from 60 km range.
Seems like a decent fix.
TBH from my perception it would still lack tank. __
- click here - |
Corwain
Gallente Down In Flames
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Posted - 2007.10.27 19:43:00 -
[107]
Yes, the problem with the Pilgrim right now is that it cannot tank and neut at the same time. Range bonus would just result in nanoability. It needs a bonus to neut cap use. --
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Cailais
Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.27 23:35:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Corwain Yes, the problem with the Pilgrim right now is that it cannot tank and neut at the same time. Range bonus would just result in nanoability. It needs a bonus to neut cap use.
Sounds very reasonable.
C.
*signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link) - Jacques([email protected]) - sig designer - eve mail
Low Sec Idea |
Hydrogen
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.10.28 11:17:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Hydrogen on 28/10/2007 11:18:36 Edited by: Hydrogen on 28/10/2007 11:17:29
Originally by: Cailais
Originally by: Corwain Yes, the problem with the Pilgrim right now is that it cannot tank and neut at the same time. Range bonus would just result in nanoability. It needs a bonus to neut cap use.
Sounds very reasonable.
TBH a better tank, another mid and keeping current dps with increased drone bay on Pilgrim would fix that too. Why? 1. tank - obviously to survive in close quarter combat. At least the same resist as Curse would fix that. 2. current dps - 315 dps is the maximum in a reasonable Neut/NOS setup. It can not even be modified by modules or implants. 150m3 drone bay with 75MBit, thus having a full wing spare with different damage type or speed or EW would be reasonable. 3. another mid - to keep range on normal ships you need at least AB, scrambler, webber, cap injector, leaving only 1 slot for EW, which is somehow pointless (drones still hit you, missiles still hit you at 100%, blasters would rip the Pilgrim still apart, lasers and Proj would be reduced in effect). Besides that, jammers on Pilgrim are least effective and dampeners are pointless after the change in close combat. Resulting in a must use tracking disruptors.
With those changes we still look at 315 dps maximum on the Pilgrim, with the tank of the target reduced in effectiveness (NOS/Neut vs cap injector). The Pilgrim would have to keep the target in range, sustain its own cap, have its drones survive, hoping the target mismanages its own cap (injector) and hoping the target has no friends closeby (315 dps take their time to bring one down).
Hardly overpowered but doable. __
- click here - |
Cailais
Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.28 20:06:00 -
[110]
Still nothing from any developers?? Maybe I should fly a carrier...
Wether its a buff to nos/neut range, the ability to fit and run neuts with a MAR or what ever, its up to debate: what I do know is my pilgrim isnt popping much on anything atm.
C.
Piratise Low Sec! or Eve on Hard Mode (idea) |
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Hydrogen
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.10.28 23:37:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Cailais Still nothing from any developers?? Maybe I should fly a carrier...
Wether its a buff to nos/neut range, the ability to fit and run neuts with a MAR or what ever, its up to debate: what I do know is my pilgrim isnt popping much on anything atm.
C.
Yah, except Id prefer if CCP does not make another Nano-fotm of the Pilgrim... __
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Depp Knight
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.10.29 02:31:00 -
[112]
Im probably one of the few pilgrim pilots here that doesnt want to see this ship become another range recon. This is why I was attracted to the ship in the first place. Close combat, do or die. It was such a high to fly. However without getting anymore than about 3 cycles of nos thats like 12secs before the targets cap is below yours is kinda wrong.
Again ccp gives the pilgrim an extra 100pg for a 150pg module and doesnt even add an extra mid slot. Cant believe no one mentions this
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Corwain
Gallente Down In Flames
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Posted - 2007.10.29 03:07:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Depp Knight Im probably one of the few pilgrim pilots here that doesnt want to see this ship become another range recon. This is why I was attracted to the ship in the first place. Close combat, do or die. It was such a high to fly. However without getting anymore than about 3 cycles of nos thats like 12secs before the targets cap is below yours is kinda wrong.
Again ccp gives the pilgrim an extra 100pg for a 150pg module and doesnt even add an extra mid slot. Cant believe no one mentions this
Pretty much ditto my feelings exactly. I don't want another nanoship, I want the Pilgrim to work as intended without:
1. Capping itself out 2. Fielding no offense (ewar) 3. Fielding no defense --
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Cailais
Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.29 09:57:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Corwain
Originally by: Depp Knight Im probably one of the few pilgrim pilots here that doesnt want to see this ship become another range recon. This is why I was attracted to the ship in the first place. Close combat, do or die. It was such a high to fly. However without getting anymore than about 3 cycles of nos thats like 12secs before the targets cap is below yours is kinda wrong.
Again ccp gives the pilgrim an extra 100pg for a 150pg module and doesnt even add an extra mid slot. Cant believe no one mentions this
Pretty much ditto my feelings exactly. I don't want another nanoship, I want the Pilgrim to work as intended without:
1. Capping itself out 2. Fielding no offense (ewar) 3. Fielding no defense
Exactly. The pilgrim was real fun to fly even though it would often be a 'close run thing'. Perhaps its the hull that needs a boost? The Arbitrator with a superior cap regen might indirectly boost the Pilgrims ability to survive up close?
With the Black Ops ships coming out Id really like to be able to use my pilgrim in a far more effective role. Because its sucha niche ship, with so few pilots I worry that ccp wil just dump it in the 'meh we'll fix it later...' bin.
C.
Piratise Low Sec! or Eve on Hard Mode (idea) |
Phaedruss
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Posted - 2007.10.29 14:13:00 -
[115]
It's a crying shame really. I pretty much devoted myself to the Pilgrim until recently. Hardly worthwhile in large gangs, it really only had a role in small gangs and solo, which is ok...one or the other is fair enough. Since the last patch it lost a good part of its capability in the latter. What I would like to know is why did the developers do this to the Pilgrim? Was it just collateral damage from the whining about Nos Domis and screw the effort it would take to protect it from the nerf?
I don't know how many other Pilgrim pilots used sensor damps instead of tracking disruptors because of the limitations of disruptors, and given its only offensive weapons are drones, this coming patch is potentially another double wammy to a ship that's already been gutted. What gives?
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.10.29 14:24:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Phaedruss
I don't know how many other Pilgrim pilots used sensor damps instead of tracking disruptors
Probably most of them, mainly because damps are currently more than a bit overpowered, and much more general-use than TDs. It's not problem with TDs being bad (quite the opposite), but that damps are too good in comparison.
Now damps are being nerfed at least somewhat, but apparently so are TDs(?). We'll see what happens. I think TDs right now are pretty nicely balanced (good effect, but situational), it's the damps (and only the damps) that need a nerf. Oh well.
If you want to talk "worst EW type", talk to the Minmatar. They'll educate you in the wonderful world of target painters . Tracking disrupts aren't the worst (just the second-worst, heh).
About the ships: Curse is currently ok-ish imho... it used to be maybe a bit overpowered, now it's not. I'm not wild about the fact that you have to nano the ship to make it really useful, though.
Pilgrim has problems, agreed. It can't tank well enough for the range it's expected to fight in. It needs... something. Maybe several somethings.
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Corwain
Gallente Down In Flames
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Posted - 2007.10.29 14:44:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Originally by: Phaedruss
I don't know how many other Pilgrim pilots used sensor damps instead of tracking disruptors
Probably most of them, mainly because damps are currently more than a bit overpowered, and much more general-use than TDs. It's not problem with TDs being bad (quite the opposite), but that damps are too good in comparison.
Erm, actually the 2 damps+ECM burst was a very niche fitting for the Pilgrim, very few Pilgrim pilots don't fit TDs are the have to operate at very close ranges where damps are ineffective as you will lock at almost the same time as an opponent and are too close to stay out of lock range. Not to mention damps take 3 to really be effective, hard to fit on the Pilgrim with its limited mids. --
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.10.29 14:46:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Corwain
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Originally by: Phaedruss
I don't know how many other Pilgrim pilots used sensor damps instead of tracking disruptors
Probably most of them, mainly because damps are currently more than a bit overpowered, and much more general-use than TDs. It's not problem with TDs being bad (quite the opposite), but that damps are too good in comparison.
Erm, actually the 2 damps+ECM burst was a very niche fitting for the Pilgrim, very few Pilgrim pilots don't fit TDs are the have to operate at very close ranges where damps are ineffective as you will lock at almost the same time as an opponent and are too close to stay out of lock range. Not to mention damps take 3 to really be effective, hard to fit on the Pilgrim with its limited mids.
Ah, brainfart, was thinking of the Curse there for a sec. Yeah, TDs are more common in Pilgrims I'd guess.
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Corwain
Gallente Down In Flames
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Posted - 2007.10.29 14:48:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi Ah, brainfart, was thinking of the Curse there for a sec. Yeah, TDs are more common in Pilgrims I'd guess.
Yeah, I've never used TDs on a Curse myself, although I haven't flown it much like I did my Pilgrim. --
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Madla Mafia
The Dead Man's Hand
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Posted - 2007.10.29 17:20:00 -
[120]
Amarr recons are ship hangar decoration... -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amarr - getting screwed since 2005. |
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