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Amarr Recon - Current state

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Hydrogen Art of War	Posted - 2007.11.22 08:37:00 - [361] Originally by: Depp Knight Another day and still no news of a change. Makes me wonder, if when will there be a fix, a change a bit of light? Atm I am sticking to the sacril. Pretty good **** btw. More on topic, TD's are broken, med nos is broken, pilgrims cap is broken, pilgrim is broken and new scripts and bandwidth breaks the pilgrim apart. Oh its great being a Pilgrim pilot. Considering the potential of Amarr Recons (and of course my skill invest) it is a shame on how both ships are set by now. Is it only me, that I feel the NOS/Neut-Damp Curse isnt right? __ - click here -
Mortis Tyrathlion Twisted Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.22 10:08:00 - [362] Damp nerf might help a bit there. Though I guess, with the Curse's nos/neut range, it's still a little academic...
Hydrogen Art of War	Posted - 2007.11.22 15:08:00 - [363] Originally by: Confessor I love my pilgrim, but it sucks just sitting in the hanger now. I sold mine. Simply as ppl on TS asked me, why they hear so much weird noise over tS when I logon. I couldnt tell I was crying seeing my Pilgrim ;) So I sold it... __ - click here -
Depp Knight Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.22 15:14:00 - [364] Damps are overpowered on a non bonused ship so yeh I see theres something wrong with the curse when you use it with damps. Speed, nos, damps and drones is a pretty awesome way to fly things and it has now become overpowered. The problem I see it as this. Target Disruptors are obviously broken when its combat recon that has its bonus doesnt use them.
Belenkas	Posted - 2007.11.22 21:35:00 - [365] Considering you are going to be asked to change ship if you want to join any sized gang in Amarr Recon, yes, they completely do NOT fit any role at all. Combat Recons are there as anti-support support(read gang ship), but considering the fact I posted as the first sentence, it is OBVIOUS they do not fill this role AT ALL. Any change is a good change. Simply because it can't be any worse than it is. /rant off :)
Hydrogen Art of War	Posted - 2007.11.23 08:15:00 - [366] Originally by: Depp Knight Damps are overpowered on a non bonused ship so yeh I see theres something wrong with the curse when you use it with damps. Speed, nos, damps and drones is a pretty awesome way to fly things and it has now become overpowered. The problem I see it as this. Target Disruptors are obviously broken when its combat recon that has its bonus doesnt use them. Funny enough: Dampeners will stay overpowered even after patch. The ability as such to use Dampeners in a Nano-T2 fitting, so that you can drop your target's lockrange below Disruptor range plus NOS/Neut range was a problem and will be still in future. Even on the unbonused (as in Dampeners) Curse. I bet that we will see another nerf in future, probably only geared to Curse. Don't get me wrong: there should not be a foolproof setup, but by then Curse will be broken too and its all over. __ - click here -
Charles Kuralt Dr. Klahn's Army	Posted - 2007.11.23 19:07:00 - [367] It's amazing. I check this very thread twice a day. Once in the morning, and again in the evening hoping to hear a "we're looking into it" response. That's it. Even if we have to wait another patch or two, some sort of acknowledgment that they realize how broken the Pilgrim is and are looking into it is all I really want. I continue to soldier on and train for Amarr Recons with faith that CCP will realize how busted this ship is. Please do not let me down.
Cailais Amarr W A R	Posted - 2007.11.24 17:52:00 - [368] Edited by: Cailais on 24/11/2007 17:52:26 The more I think on the Pilgrim the more convinced I am that it should have the same bonus to range for nos/neuts as the curse. For those who say it will become 'just another nano curse' Id first direct you to the other race recons, they have the same capabilities for both recon and combat variants - why should the curse and pilgrim be different in that regard? Secondy both ships would be very different. A nano curse speed tanked with enhance its speed tank with either shields, or EW (typically sensor damps). There's very limited options to do the same with the Pilgrim as it has only 5 mids. Assuming a 'speed tanked' pilgrim fits a MWD, Warp Disruptor and some form of cap replen (such as a ca booster) that would leave only 2 slots for any additional tank: with the pilgrims lower shield hp its clear it can't 'shield tank' effectively. With the change to damps, I think a pilgrim would struggle to damp down a target with just 2 damps - and so this really leaves only one other option: an armor tank. While the curse and pilgrim would share some characteristics (as the other race recons do) they would still be very different. So how about it cpp? Save the pilgrim and give it the same bonus to nos/neuts as the curse. C. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.
Grytok KL0NKRIEGER	Posted - 2007.11.24 19:00:00 - [369] Yeah, do it like that then CCP. Give the Pilgrim it's range-bonus and we've a deal, although I'd prefeer something else, but I could live with it. .
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition Drunken N Disorderly	Posted - 2007.11.24 23:31:00 - [370] i gave up although, i do plan on getting my drone interfacing 5 and spec drone op 5's, since they'll be useful on my raven.

Depp Knight Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:33:00 - [371] 13 pages. Go boys
Rudy Metallo G.H.O.S.T	Posted - 2007.11.25 01:47:00 - [372] They are not broken, they've just been forced into a gang role, which is where they belong and where the rest of the Recons reside as well. --
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition Drunken N Disorderly	Posted - 2007.11.25 02:20:00 - [373] Originally by: Rudy Metallo They are not broken, they've just been forced into a gang role, which is where they belong and where the rest of the Recons reside as well. too bad they perform **** poor in a gang :\
Cailais Amarr W A R	Posted - 2007.11.25 12:05:00 - [374] Originally by: Rudy Metallo They are not broken, they've just been forced into a gang role, which is where they belong and where the rest of the Recons reside as well. I don't have a problem with them being gang orientated ships, and the curse can do passabley well in this role because it can apply its primary bonus (nos & neuts) from outside of web range and warp disruptor range. That's the same for all of the force recons in fact, that they can apply their abilities, supplemented with EW at range - BUT for the exception that is the pilgrim. The pilgrim cannot use one of its primary bonuses unless it is within webifier range, and deep inside warp disruptor range. Hence the pilgrim is rather worse than a poor ship - its a liability. C. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.
Aaron Mirrorsaver R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2007.11.25 16:03:00 - [375] thats the problem, you fly a pilgrim in gang battle, be prepared to die each time unless your engaging 3-1 odds in favour of you whereby they're dead before you get primaried, because if you get in range to your use neut bonus, your dead, no mwd out for you. the other recons are useful in the gang environment and safer to use because there stuff is used from range, outside of warp scramble range. R.E.C.O.N. is recruiting
Depp Knight Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.26 02:15:00 - [376] Originally by: Rudy Metallo They are not broken, they've just been forced into a gang role, which is where they belong and where the rest of the Recons reside as well. lol, your kidding right? A 12.5km optimal range ship where its nos/neuts wont make an effect on a gang as the target is dead before he feels his cap being drained and you can only fit 1 tracking disruptor on your ship.
Hydrogen Art of War	Posted - 2007.11.26 15:20:00 - [377] Edited by: Hydrogen on 26/11/2007 15:21:56 Originally by: Rudy Metallo They are not broken, they've just been forced into a gang role, which is where they belong and where the rest of the Recons reside as well. Let us just assume you are right, such as that Amarr Recons and Pilgrim in special are fine and meant for a gang environment. So let us go straight for the Pilgrim: 1. It's main weapon, NOS and Neut have a range of 12.5 km in general (no, we do not equip faction stuff every time). 2. Due to 1. it becomes obvious that the Pilgrim needs a MWD in a gang environment. Simply as it will not be able to use its NOS and Neut outside that range. After all NOS/Neut is its primary weapon. 3. Let us assume that the posters claiming "jigsaw games" with your cap using NOS/Neut are fine. You still need a cap booster. 4. Since you are in range of less than 12.5 km you need a tank. Speed tank is not feasible so it is armor tank. Now let us put it together: - 2 NOS II/Dim, 1 Neut/Unstable - 1 MWD II, 1 Cap Booster - 1 MAR + mix of hardeners/EANM/plate - we forget about rigs for this one... What do we have now: - a ship with a weak tank and low repping (as long as it has sufficient cap) - a ship which dies fast, when under focused fire (focused fire is overrated - with low cap it has a problem anyway to run its repper forever while using the Neut - or does someone still believe a NOS fuels your Neut while you need cap to rep and for EWAR???) - a ship which is most likely under focused fire when uncloaking at less than 12.5 km from enemy (EvE players did not learn yet to stand still and ignore a Pilgrim in 12.5 km range, waiting to be dry of cap) - a ship which needs a looooong time to approach when taking advantage of its cloak (it is not that enemies know you are waiting there and thus are so kind to warp at 12.5 km from your cloaked position) - a ship with a huge signature radius (larger than any HAC) - a ship with a ! WORTHLESS ! tracking disruptor bonus - a ship which needs to stay in range for at least 30 seconds to be effective at all on one target So we have a real good gang ship: A. Considering range and speed this ship is on an enemy for at least 1 minute until it is on next target (best case!?!) B. A ship which offers negligble dps after next patch. C. A ship which has issues to rep itself. D. A ship, which is an easy kill. Now please someone show me gangs, where the fights last at least 4 minutes so that this ship is of use, where it survives long enough and where there is a valid reason to choose Pilgrim over eg. Zealot or Sacrilege or even Curse. @Rudy: your claim about being forced into a gang role is a not so smart claim and simply shows lack of knowledge and experience. __ - click here -
Neena Valdi Art of War	Posted - 2007.11.26 21:55:00 - [378] CCP please give us some feedback on this matter.
Ripcha Headov Art of War	Posted - 2007.11.26 23:07:00 - [379] /signed!! CCP, you are boosting the Falcon with this next patch so its jamming bonus is in line with the combat recon Rook. ALL other force recons then will have same bonus's for range/strength as thier combat recon counterparts. To do this and leave the pilgrim as it is is just sacrilige and ruining what could be a perfectly good force recon ship... PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE give the pilgrim the same Nos/Neut range as the Curse. You know it makes perfect sence, and infact you are admitting it does by changing the Falcon for Trinity.
Aaron Mirrorsaver R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2007.11.27 04:21:00 - [380] 10% boost to range of energy emission systems. :) that'll help, while not making it overpowered. R.E.C.O.N. is recruiting

Hydrogen Art of War	Posted - 2007.11.27 09:35:00 - [381] Wow, actually I did not expect increasing support over time :) __ - click here -
Pilgrippa 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.11.27 11:32:00 - [382] The only problem with the Pilgrim right now is it's dependence on cap boosters. No other force recon requires boosters to be effective, although there are plenty of setups that include them. The Pilgrim however is now extremely cap intensive, and completely dependent on boosters, which limits it to areas where boosters are in ready supply. This isn't how force recons should work, as they are meant to be able to roam in hostile territory for extended periods. Proposal: Change amount bonus to activation bonus for neuts. An activation cost of what a gun would cost on a normal ship seems fair. (eg, 250mm railgun on an arazu) - this would allow neuts to be used based roughly on cap regen, leaving extra cap for tanking and ewar - would not overpower the pilgrim, as it still needs to be in web range, and the neuts are not nearly as powerful - still would probably need cap boosters, but they would last longer. Its at least a step in the right direction.
Timaios Art of War	Posted - 2007.11.27 11:48:00 - [383] Well, I think the problems are twofold, like many have commented. The lack of range and the lack of cap are issues; with a longer range for the neuts it'd be a more viable ship, but I'd rather have something done with the tracking disruptors. At the very minimum the tracking disruptor should have at least three types of scripts: one against tracking, one against optimal range and one against falloff. The latter would drastically hinder short range setups relying on blasters (2500m optimal and 6000m falloff) and have an actual effect against ships fitting autocannons. As it stands now, tracking disruptors don't have much of an effect against hostiles in short range who have you webbed. "Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connaet point." -Blaise Pascal, PensTes, 4, 277
Baron Goodwill	Posted - 2007.11.27 12:03:00 - [384] I want to ask a question, as a reletavily new player (abt 5mil exp) I was looking forward to curse as a solo-pvp ship (mostly pirating), just need an advice from gurus, shall I stick to the training course for curse or switch to HAC (Sac)
Hydrogen Art of War	Posted - 2007.11.27 12:16:00 - [385] Originally by: Baron Goodwill I want to ask a question, as a reletavily new player (abt 5mil exp) I was looking forward to curse as a solo-pvp ship (mostly pirating), just need an advice from gurus, shall I stick to the training course for curse or switch to HAC (Sac) Right now I would suggest Sacrilege over Curse: 1. the Curse is fragile in its only viable setup and got no versatility 2. the Sacrilege is extremly versatile but heavily depends on good missile skills If CCP doesnt change anything, by then I truly consider choosing Curse/Pilgrim a mistake. Sacrilege anytime, when there is no change. __ - click here -
Grytok moon7empler Ev0ke	Posted - 2007.11.27 12:18:00 - [386] Originally by: Baron Goodwill I want to ask a question, as a reletavily new player (abt 5mil exp) I was looking forward to curse as a solo-pvp ship (mostly pirating), just need an advice from gurus, shall I stick to the training course for curse or switch to HAC (Sac) For Solo-PvP I'd go for an Sacrilege, which has a hell of a tank. The Curse can be used, but you'll horribly die to anyone with half a brain, as relying on Drones is not the best option imho, if you're 20km away from your target. Curse is very good for small gangs tho. . My postings in these forums do not necessarily represent my corp or alliance.
Baron Goodwill	Posted - 2007.11.27 13:13:00 - [387] Thanks a lot.
Cailais Amarr W A R	Posted - 2007.11.27 14:51:00 - [388] Originally by: Baron Goodwill I want to ask a question, as a reletavily new player (abt 5mil exp) I was looking forward to curse as a solo-pvp ship (mostly pirating), just need an advice from gurus, shall I stick to the training course for curse or switch to HAC (Sac) I fly both sacri and curse; theyre very different ships - the curse can be really very nasty but it's a right handful to fly well and if you make the slightest mistake its game over and into your pod. The sacri, with good missile skills, is far more forgiving and perhaps easier to learn the art of piracy in. Dont totally discount the curse, but if you decide to fly it be prepared for a steep (read: expensive) learning curve. C. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.
The Passenger Amarr Another fine product from the nonsense factory.	Posted - 2007.11.27 15:05:00 - [389] It's great that not one Dev has acknowledged the problem or that they are looking into it. I remember when CCP was regarded as being leagues ahead in player/dev communication. The Arbitrator hull is so awesome too
Cailais Amarr W A R	Posted - 2007.11.27 17:21:00 - [390] Fellow Curse pilots, (with a bit of luck the link will work) - Curse Redux...TRINITY Linkage C. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.



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