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Blosphere Amarr	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:53:00 - [121] Please bring the old pilgrim back :\| --
KillmAll187 Aliastra	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:57:00 - [122] **Pre Patch** The problem with the Curse, was that with the Nano setup (everyone agrees this is most common, yes?) was that it was un-killable 1v1 with a good pilot at the controls. The best case for a Curse target would be to make it run. C'mon, how many BS sized nos? And people whine about the Dominix that struggles to fit 3 heavy nos. Fast forward to today, the solo pwnmobile part has been fixed, but now the Curse really isn't any different than a regular Arbitrator. I don't know how you fix a Curse without making it stupidly strong vs anything that relies on cap. If you have ever fought a Curse you will know what I mean. I guess somehow make it impossible for the curse to go 3k/s. Then I don't care if it can nuke my capacitor in under 30 seconds.
Cailais Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.29 18:45:00 - [123] Originally by: KillmAll187 **Pre Patch** The problem with the Curse, was that with the Nano setup (everyone agrees this is most common, yes?) was that it was un-killable 1v1 with a good pilot at the controls. The best case for a Curse target would be to make it run. C'mon, how many BS sized nos? And people whine about the Dominix that struggles to fit 3 heavy nos. Fast forward to today, the solo pwnmobile part has been fixed, but now the Curse really isn't any different than a regular Arbitrator. I don't know how you fix a Curse without making it stupidly strong vs anything that relies on cap. If you have ever fought a Curse you will know what I mean. I guess somehow make it impossible for the curse to go 3k/s. Then I don't care if it can nuke my capacitor in under 30 seconds. Arguabley the Curse remains an effective ship, not amazing but it can still be very effective in certain situations. The ability for it to carry 15 drones (on test) is a big bonus for this ship. The pilgrim however cant rely upon holding off at range to deal damage as it must get within web range to utilise its neut/nos (simply holding at range and its dps is pretty poor: you would indeed be better of with an Arbitrator). If the pilgrim is to be able to hold its own within web range then it needs either a very much superior tank, or a far more efficient nos/neut in order to allow it to attempt to run an armor repair module. Alternatively it is given a range bonus to nos/neut so it can perform in a similar fashion to the classic 'nano-curse'. My personal preference is to reduce its base cap recharge time probably by something like 30 - 50%. C. Piratise Low Sec! or Eve on Hard Mode (idea)
Grytok KL0NKRIEGER	Posted - 2007.10.29 21:40:00 - [124] As mentioned by some pilots before: The Curse would be pretty balanced, if it were given a 20-30% better CapRecharge, making it possible to run at least 2 Neutralizer without a CapInjector. The Pilgrim however is a real problem, as all pilots would agree, that a NOS/Neut-Range-Bonus wouldn't cut it on that ship. So we've to give it something else for doing it's job decently, like the mentioned Neutralizer-Activation-Reduction. 7,5% per LvL would cut it I think, when I go through the numbers. As TrackingDisruptors will get screwed like the Damps with Trinity (Rev III) I'd rather like to see the TD-Bonus on the Amarr-Recons changed to 5% Resistances for the Curse and 5% Armor HP on the Pilgrim as well. With that I could live, and it would'nt make them overpowered from my POV, but give them the ability to be a Combat-Ship instead of a EW-Ship, which they never were. .
Hydrogen Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.29 21:54:00 - [125] My personal favorite for the Pilgrim is the classical stealth assassin (I take the approach of UO stealth assassin/DAOC shadowblades/DAOC infiltrators,...). Let me elaborate on this, first on the corresponding niche/target: 1. ships soloing in general resp. someone who strayed from the group 2. esspecially PvE, but maybe also PvP 3. ships of any size What are a stealth assassins drawbacks: 1. light armor/no armor 2. stealth is slow, thus targets must either be stationary PvEing (belts/anomalies), Sniping (PvP) or simply being afk for approach 3. other stealth assassins have an option/possibility to find a stealth assassin (keyword tracking in other MMORPGS) 4. uncloak/decloak: less the skill of the stealth assassin, the more likely a target uncloaks a stealther by chance the close the stealther is. At maximum skill a stealther is almost impossible to decloak if he does not stand directly on target. 5. a special position is needed for highest possible effect (to launch a critical hit) 6. long range anti-stealther-stealthers What are a stealth assassins strength: 1. close to always hits first out of cloak - close to zero delay from uncloak to hit (shock tactic) 2. extremly high alpha hit or ability to disable target for some time (up to 10 seconds) 3. Option to apply DoT (Damage over Time resp. life drain) - poison in UO, Bleeding in DAOC, poison spell in SB,... 4. extremly agile to evade being hit At least that is how other MMORPGs balanced this role. Main goal was almost always to punish solo play or farming. Players regulated the farming themselves. When there were too many stealth assassins, players started to create anti-stealth-assassin assassins. In general I believe this is a viable niche for EvE too. It would also apply a challenging assett to the EvE gaming experience and improve CCP's stand on PvP. There should be no safe PvEing outside empire. Risk vs reward - but this relation is out of whack in EvE. Why? 1. we know a farmer closeby in a system, farming belts on regular. 2. there are only 4 belts in system, so once we tried it alone - only one of us. Result: he had stabs on and warped to SS, cloaking. 3. having learned we return a few days later and rally 10 men at gate with frigs and cruisers. We jump in all at once and at least 3 scramble points warp to each belt at once. Result: even though we had no delay, he warped to SS and cloaked. 4. only chance if at all would be to log off and hope to get him in time. TBH: logon/logoff tactic should not be a viable game tactic as the only option to get someone. This is only one of several examples. That said, what would be needed or could be done to bring some balance to risk vs reward and how could it look like. Another suggestion to Pilgrim - the stealth assassin: i. can target immediatly after decloaking initiation (app. 5 secs until cloak wears off, so 5 seconds advantage for targetting for the stealther) 1. close to always hits first out of cloak - close to zero delay from uncloak to hit (shock tactic) 2. "Pilgrim device"/Pilgrim ECM burst - all target modules are offline for 10 seconds and then 100% functional again. 3. DoT already exists in form of NOS/Neut 4. "extremly agile to evade being hit" - this could be achieved by applying high resist to Pilgrim, extremly low sig radius, low armor and only allow 1-2 low slots What happens? The Pilgrim would be extremly vulnerable, but always succeed, if the target didnt assume a Pilgrim's presence. Those are not ready-out-of the-box changes, but a suggestion on another completly different change for an existant niche, which isnt filled. But again: this scenario highly relies on the target not knowing a Pilgrim's presence, thus using a Pilgrim's cloak requires the Pilgrim pilot to vanish from local or to appear like a friend (blue '+'). What is the point in being sneaky, when everyone knows that someone is there, who is not a friend? __ - click here -
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition	Posted - 2007.10.29 22:14:00 - [126] I would have to say no to all of those changes to be honest. One of the reasons that assassins where so popular / hard hitters in other games (I played a shadowblade, 3 of them actually, in DAOC - Bors server - Hazred & Shah); is that you could not change classes. Ex: A stealther was only good at pvp. In pve, you're lucky if you can get a group. In eve, I can fly a pilgrim, raven, etc.. depending on the circumstances. However, I do believe that all recons should have the following abilities: 1) Target while cloaked, and ship scanners / cargo scanners can be used. No other modules. If you use any other type of modules, you will automatically uncloaked. - This will give an "alpha strike from stealthed" attack, as well as give the recons a niche role: Intel gathering. 2) Ability to run their weapon systems indefinately (Nos - Neuts - TD's for pilgrim, Hybrids - Damps - Warp Jammers for Arazu, etc..) naturally, assuming all relevant skills are level 5. - This gives the ships incentive to actually use the modules they are supposed to, as well as incentive for ship specialization. 3) Local: This is a game problem, perhaps move Local to constellation?
Grytok KL0NKRIEGER	Posted - 2007.10.29 22:41:00 - [127] Edited by: Grytok on 29/10/2007 22:42:25 One ggod point made. The recalibration (Targeting-Delay) on Force-Recons and Covert Ops has to be eliminated. The BlackOps get this feature as well, as the Stealth Bombers has it allready. Can't think of any reason, why it would be bad to have it removed. The Pilgrim would still have to launch it's drones, which creates a delay allready. Also the Rapier would be more effective against Vagabonds or other speedy ships, if it could lock without the delay. .
Phaedruss	Posted - 2007.10.30 07:09:00 - [128] I don't see any need to give the Pilgrim a new role or some new bonuses. It was a fine ship for what it did before it became collateral damage in the last patch. Just reverse the damage that was done to it and leave it alone
Hydrogen Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.30 09:17:00 - [129] Edited by: Hydrogen on 30/10/2007 09:17:37 Originally by: Phaedruss I don't see any need to give the Pilgrim a new role or some new bonuses. It was a fine ship for what it did before it became collateral damage in the last patch. Just reverse the damage that was done to it and leave it alone Actually I have no clue, why CCP does not do it. Also keep in mind, that current EvE warfare changes slowly: 1. targets have higher resists 2. MWD (speed) is standard by now 3. Cap injector is standard in PvP (at least from my perception). 4. It is apparently planned to reduce Pilgrim bandwidth, so it can field only 5 med or 2 heavy drones. Basically, even in a prepatch Pilgrim, a Pilgrim has its problems in today's warfare. Together with the suggested drone bandwidth change I do not consider a prenerf Pilgrim to perform well... __ - click here -
Depp Knight Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.30 11:35:00 - [130] I find it quite astonishing that so many people of the forums about the pilgrim truly believe that is fine. You will find that close to all of those who believe this have never flown one and look at the statical numbers and suggest that the nerfing is no where near as bad as some may seem. Those who had flown in and still try to will realise that the pilgrim is totally lost. Role is now obsolete to any other cloaking recons out there, because what ever the pilgrim can do, others can do better in nearly every situation available. With TD nerf just like most modules how is the ship even in the game. What is left of it.

Hydrogen Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:08:00 - [131] Originally by: Depp Knight Those who had flown in and still try to will realise that the pilgrim is totally lost. Role is now obsolete to any other cloaking recons out there, because what ever the pilgrim can do, others can do better in nearly every situation available. With TD nerf just like most modules how is the ship even in the game. What is left of it. By now I got the impression, that some weird things happen on this forum: 1. People who never or rarely flew an Amarr Recon oppose any change to those, saying they are fine. 2. People who do use the Nano-Curse claim the Curse is fine and thus the Pilgrim too. 3. People who fell victim to Amarr Recon in the past (most likely before NOS nerf) claim that the Pilgrim and Curse are fine too. 4. ... Recons are perceived as a threat, as those offer abilities, which disable most nao-fotms. That said, I do not believe that most posters really perceive Amarr Recons and Pilgrim in special as fine. They simply do not want a change, most likely due to lack of understanding of game mechanics. __ - click here -
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition	Posted - 2007.10.30 13:19:00 - [132] Originally by: Hydrogen Originally by: Depp Knight Those who had flown in and still try to will realise that the pilgrim is totally lost. Role is now obsolete to any other cloaking recons out there, because what ever the pilgrim can do, others can do better in nearly every situation available. With TD nerf just like most modules how is the ship even in the game. What is left of it. By now I got the impression, that some weird things happen on this forum: 1. People who never or rarely flew an Amarr Recon oppose any change to those, saying they are fine. 2. People who do use the Nano-Curse claim the Curse is fine and thus the Pilgrim too. 3. People who fell victim to Amarr Recon in the past (most likely before NOS nerf) claim that the Pilgrim and Curse are fine too. 4. ... Recons are perceived as a threat, as those offer abilities, which disable most nao-fotms. That said, I do not believe that most posters really perceive Amarr Recons and Pilgrim in special as fine. They simply do not want a change, most likely due to lack of understanding of game mechanics. you forgot one. 4) People see the stuff that Pilgrims kill, and assume that the opponent is not a new player and knows what he is doing, and the Pilgrim should have died. Hence, it is actually overpowered. Yea, ok, I killed a Raven solo. People fail to realize: 1) He is 3 months old 2) He was using EM torpedoes 3) He did not recall his drones at all 4) Etc.. etc.. I think these are the kills which will ultimately lead to the Pilgrim's demise. Does this mean the Pilgrim is "overpowered" Hell no, considering I could STILL kill these pilots (and have done so) in a freaking T1 cruiser or frigate.
Hydrogen Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.30 14:24:00 - [133] Originally by: Feng Schui I think these are the kills which will ultimately lead to the Pilgrim's demise. Does this mean the Pilgrim is "overpowered" Hell no, considering I could STILL kill these pilots (and have done so) in a freaking T1 cruiser or frigate. Like I mentioned before: I strongly believe the Pilgrim should be the solo-predator. It was before the NOS-nerf. Not overpowered but well-suited to get the job done, like eg. jumping on ratting Ravens, while those try to tank an average 3 bs spawn. Now put back the Pilgrim to its old NOS-functionality and remove it from local when cloaked, therby also putting an end to solo ISK-farmers. __ - click here -
Madla Mafia The Dead Man's Hand	Posted - 2007.10.30 14:44:00 - [134] This week I have: - Flown my Curse back to Empire. - Flown my Pilgrim back to Empire. - Hung my Curse and Pilgrim up on the wall in my Empire hangar. - Flown back out to 0.0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amarr - getting screwed since 2005.
Hydrogen Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.30 15:01:00 - [135] Someone noticed the dev blog on Carriers? CCP is going back to the drawing board and stopped the Carrier changes for now. In case of the Pilgrim, well... __ - click here -
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition	Posted - 2007.10.30 15:17:00 - [136] http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=625436
Hydrogen Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.30 15:20:00 - [137] Originally by: Feng Schui http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=625436 nice one __ - click here -
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition	Posted - 2007.10.30 15:35:00 - [138] I tried, heh; If there are any rooms for improvement, leave a note =) I've been trying to edit and update the post as I go along. If it gets everyone's stamp of approval, maybe it'll be another Khanid MK2 =)
Hydrogen Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.30 17:13:00 - [139] Originally by: Feng Schui I tried, heh; If there are any rooms for improvement, leave a note =) I've been trying to edit and update the post as I go along. If it gets everyone's stamp of approval, maybe it'll be another Khanid MK2 =) You offered some valid points. I am just afraid CCP does not know at all on how broken some design lines are :/ __ - click here -
Cailais Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.30 17:29:00 - [140] Originally by: Hydrogen Originally by: Feng Schui I tried, heh; If there are any rooms for improvement, leave a note =) I've been trying to edit and update the post as I go along. If it gets everyone's stamp of approval, maybe it'll be another Khanid MK2 =) You offered some valid points. I am just afraid CCP does not know at all on how broken some design lines are :/ tbh I think the pilgrim issue is being ignored, in the hope that it will just 'go away' because ccp do not want solo viable ships. This design trend has been evident for some time and typically supported by those that claim that EVE is a MMO - and therefore you should not be able to act independently. This is a shame as there should be plenty of opportunity for the individual to achieve sucess within a MMO environment. The next expansion is only weeks away and I don't forsee any help coming to the pilgrim, its a sad loss to the game. C. Piratise Low Sec! or Eve on Hard Mode (idea)

Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition	Posted - 2007.10.30 17:40:00 - [141] we can always keep trying to bring something to ccp's attention
Hydrogen Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.30 20:40:00 - [142] Actually it is exactly what CCP wanted before. The Carrier thread shows also that CCP is not off to "destroy" complete skillpoint trees of players. Either it is low priority or they are not aware on what happens. Persistency always helps. __ - click here -
Madla Mafia The Dead Man's Hand	Posted - 2007.10.30 22:33:00 - [143] I'm looking forward to one day remove my Amarr recon ships off of my decorative hangar wall... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amarr - getting screwed since 2005.
Hydrogen Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.31 00:11:00 - [144] Originally by: Madla Mafia I'm looking forward to one day remove my Amarr recon ships off of my decorative hangar wall... I was stupid enough to try it and lost horribly.... __ - click here -
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.10.31 00:12:00 - [145] Originally by: Hydrogen Originally by: Madla Mafia I'm looking forward to one day remove my Amarr recon ships off of my decorative hangar wall... I was stupid enough to try it and lost horribly.... At least you can replace it for like 50% the cost of a different recon. ☺☻☺☻☺ SO how do you get me to stop posting? Bump this thread Until devs answer
Cailais Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.31 11:08:00 - [146] Originally by: Hydrogen Originally by: Madla Mafia I'm looking forward to one day remove my Amarr recon ships off of my decorative hangar wall... I was stupid enough to try it and lost horribly.... Yeah, that point where you convince yourself that it cant be that bad, and that maybe this fitting will work....and then..'pop'. C. Piratise Low Sec! or Eve on Hard Mode (idea)
Corwain Gallente Down In Flames	Posted - 2007.10.31 13:05:00 - [147] Still awaiting a Dev response on this issue. --
Hydrogen Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.31 15:37:00 - [148] Originally by: Corwain Still awaiting a Dev response on this issue. TBH it is not an issue. Putting Curse aside, I found consens of all serious posters so far, that the Pilgrim is plain broken. This matches exactly my ingame experience. __ - click here -
Hydrogen Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.11.01 09:20:00 - [149] 3rd page - are Pilgrim pilots finally really the minority? __ - click here -
Phaedruss	Posted - 2007.11.01 09:53:00 - [150] Originally by: Hydrogen 3rd page - are Pilgrim pilots finally really the minority? I think they've probably always been the minority, it's just accelerating now that the ship has been gutted.



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