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Grytok
KL0NKRIEGER
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Posted - 2007.11.09 09:53:00 -
[271]
I'm screwed two times, as I'm Gallente/Amarr specced mainly in Recons and Drones
I guess I've to train up Gunnery now, as dishing out damage and tanking is all these new changes are heading to.
But how boring this will be?
I think we've made good points so far, in how the Amarr-Recons could be changed, to make them more usefull again. .
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Hydrogen
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.09 10:04:00 -
[272]
Originally by: Grytok
<snip>
But how boring this will be?
I think we've made good points so far, in how the Amarr-Recons could be changed, to make them more usefull again.
Good points? C'mon we offered like 4 different flavors for each: Pilgrim and Curse. Also we listed almost all possible tweak points and discussed them intensively.
What I liked so far is the reasonnable discussion (ok except me ;) ). Seems most pilots are tired of nerfs and prefer a fitting nerf-resistant ship line, which is viable.
Good? Way more, I believe one can not expect a lot more.
__
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Grytok
KL0NKRIEGER
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Posted - 2007.11.09 10:12:00 -
[273]
Sorry, didn't want to underestimate our efforts .
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Hydrogen
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.09 10:52:00 -
[274]
Originally by: Grytok Sorry, didn't want to underestimate our efforts
Have at thee! __
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Hydrogen
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.09 13:52:00 -
[275]
Had a look, no change so far... __
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haq aan
Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2007.11.09 18:44:00 -
[276]
As a 2 years old Minmatar spec pilot,i ve never flown Amarian Recons. But as an objective point of view, Amarr Recons need to be looked at..again. It is obvious they are broken right now. I can only wish for a reasonable fix while keeping balance in mind.
Role bonus to cap usage/draining to avoid NOS nerf is the most constructive idea in this thread.
thank u, haq aan
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Feng Schui
Minmatar The Ninja Coalition Drunken N Disorderly
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Posted - 2007.11.10 00:50:00 -
[277]
Edited by: Feng Schui on 10/11/2007 00:51:03 figured this should be at the top, again.
edit: 7900 views, 10 pages, and nothing, nada, zilch from ccp regarding any of the changes.
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Anacrit Mc'Sinister
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Posted - 2007.11.10 01:24:00 -
[278]
yes, broken, or better prase is not made to be great. they work fine if the are not solo...and im fine with that, if only they were in line with other recons, which are pretty good in solo combat.
SO i say leave amarr alone - nerf everyone elce
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Charles Kuralt
Dr. Klahn's Army
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Posted - 2007.11.10 07:09:00 -
[279]
Still one of the most well thought out, well presented, mature and civilized thread to ever be completely ignored by devs. There are so many good ideas and so many obvious points the total silence can only mean for some reason they hate Amarr recons.
Back to the top with it!
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Mortis Tyrathlion
Twisted Inc.
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Posted - 2007.11.10 10:47:00 -
[280]
Originally by: Hydrogen
The Pilgrim can simply not be compared to other races force recons. I recommend actually reading this whole thread :) All that as Amarr EWAR cant be compared to other EWAR at all. Changing Pilgrim with gang support in mind, similar to other Recons, will make it a beast which pwns even more solo. This is simply due to the EWAR it has.
Example? For gang support, the Pilgrim needs range, resulting in a NOS/Neut range increase. This will remove the range boundary in solo and make it a killer.
Alternatively one could remove drone bay and drastically icnrease NOS/Neut effectiveness. Nice gang support, but then you see 2 men gangs pwning each and everything. Eg Pilgrim and Sacrilege (Sac with Improved cloak).
Whatever you say about inline with others and solo: I still do believe that there must be a ship which punishes solo ratting in 0.0 by our Ravens and others. Pilgrim is well suited to do so if it vanishes from local.
So yes, as I said, give it a range boost =P As far as I can see, that's the only change we're likely to get. I don't buy that they can't be compared - but if that is the case, guess what? Based on the way things have been going recently nerf/boost-wise, it means that they won't get fixed.
Or maybe I'm just being cynical. Yes, that's probably it...
My point is that if there's going to be any solo-punishing ship, it'll have to be a new class, or it won't get implemented due to the screaming rage of everyone else that guess what, Amarr has a stealthy killing machine and they don't! I agree, something like a Pilgrim with the ability to vanish from local would be perfect. But it's not going to be the Pilgrim.
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Grytok
KL0NKRIEGER
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Posted - 2007.11.10 13:53:00 -
[281]
Originally by: Mortis Tyrathlion
Originally by: Hydrogen
The Pilgrim can simply not be compared to other races force recons. I recommend actually reading this whole thread :) All that as Amarr EWAR cant be compared to other EWAR at all. Changing Pilgrim with gang support in mind, similar to other Recons, will make it a beast which pwns even more solo. This is simply due to the EWAR it has.
Example? For gang support, the Pilgrim needs range, resulting in a NOS/Neut range increase. This will remove the range boundary in solo and make it a killer.
Alternatively one could remove drone bay and drastically icnrease NOS/Neut effectiveness. Nice gang support, but then you see 2 men gangs pwning each and everything. Eg Pilgrim and Sacrilege (Sac with Improved cloak).
Whatever you say about inline with others and solo: I still do believe that there must be a ship which punishes solo ratting in 0.0 by our Ravens and others. Pilgrim is well suited to do so if it vanishes from local.
So yes, as I said, give it a range boost =P As far as I can see, that's the only change we're likely to get. I don't buy that they can't be compared - but if that is the case, guess what? Based on the way things have been going recently nerf/boost-wise, it means that they won't get fixed.
Or maybe I'm just being cynical. Yes, that's probably it...
My point is that if there's going to be any solo-punishing ship, it'll have to be a new class, or it won't get implemented due to the screaming rage of everyone else that guess what, Amarr has a stealthy killing machine and they don't! I agree, something like a Pilgrim with the ability to vanish from local would be perfect. But it's not going to be the Pilgrim.
Problem is, that this would require an additional bonus, as you can't take the amount-bonus away, which would gimp it even more. Or you'd have to get rid of a Cruiser-Bonus to implement this suggestion. .
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Grytok
KL0NKRIEGER
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Posted - 2007.11.10 14:27:00 -
[282]
Edited by: Grytok on 10/11/2007 14:27:17 To make a whole shot at the Force Recons, while giving the Pilgrim a buff, here are my suggestions.
Pilgrim: Amarr Cruiser Bonus: 5% bonus to Armor Resistances and 10% bonus to Drone damage and hitpoints per level. Recon Ship Bonus: 20% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Netralizer amount and 10% reduction in Energy Neutralizer capacitor use per level.
Arazu: Gallente Cruiser Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage and 10% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener effectiveness per level. Recon Ship Bonus: 20% bonus to warp disruptor range and 10% reduction in Remote Sensor Dampener capacitor use per level.
Rapier: MinMatar Cruiser Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire and 7.5% bonus to Target Painter effectiveness per level. Recon Ship Bonus: 60% bonus to Stasis Webifier range and 5% reduction in Signature Radius per level.
Falcon: Caldari Cruiser Bonus: 5% bonus to Shield Resistances and 20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer optimal range per level. Recon Ship Bonus: 10% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength and 10% reduction in ECM Target Jammer capacitor use per level.
Role Bonus (for all): 99% reduction to Covert Ops Cloaking Device CPU need and 100% reduction in targeting delay after decloaking.
Leave building cynos to disposable Cyno-Alts, as this is allready how it's done. Nobody uses 150 Million ISK ships to build cynos anymore.
Pilgrims problem is solved to some degree, while the others get some love too. .
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Mortis Tyrathlion
Twisted Inc.
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Posted - 2007.11.10 15:18:00 -
[283]
Originally by: Grytok Edited by: Grytok on 10/11/2007 14:27:17 To make a whole shot at the Force Recons, while giving the Pilgrim a buff, here are my suggestions.
Pilgrim: Amarr Cruiser Bonus: 5% bonus to Armor Resistances and 10% bonus to Drone damage and hitpoints per level. Recon Ship Bonus: 20% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Netralizer amount and 10% reduction in Energy Neutralizer capacitor use per level.
Arazu: Gallente Cruiser Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage and 10% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener effectiveness per level. Recon Ship Bonus: 20% bonus to warp disruptor range and 10% reduction in Remote Sensor Dampener capacitor use per level.
Rapier: MinMatar Cruiser Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire and 7.5% bonus to Target Painter effectiveness per level. Recon Ship Bonus: 60% bonus to Stasis Webifier range and 5% reduction in Signature Radius per level.
Falcon: Caldari Cruiser Bonus: 5% bonus to Shield Resistances and 20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer optimal range per level. Recon Ship Bonus: 10% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength and 10% reduction in ECM Target Jammer capacitor use per level.
Role Bonus (for all): 99% reduction to Covert Ops Cloaking Device CPU need and 100% reduction in targeting delay after decloaking.
Leave building cynos to disposable Cyno-Alts, as this is allready how it's done. Nobody uses 150 Million ISK ships to build cynos anymore.
Pilgrims problem is solved to some degree, while the others get some love too.
Not a bad idea... I'd vote for that. Let's face it, anyone who needs a cyno field - ie. has capships - will almost certainly have the cash to pay for the fuel for it...
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Grytok
KL0NKRIEGER
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Posted - 2007.11.10 16:14:00 -
[284]
It's not only about the fuel.
Cynos can be spotted through the Map and are visible in overview, which gives the cyno-ship a very short lifespan.
Every organized Capital-Op will have a Cyno-Alt in a Kestrel to do that bloody job, or you'll send in a way more cheaper Covert Ops, to build the cyno, if the stealthy approach is necessary.
Why should I risk my 150 Million Force Recon?
Usually you drop the cyno at places, where there is combat going on, and there I'm pretty dead after opening the cyno 90% of the time, as it is mandatory to kill the Cynoship asap. .
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Grytok
KL0NKRIEGER
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Posted - 2007.11.11 17:25:00 -
[285]
I've made a new Thread especially for the new Role Bonus' for all Force Recons, to keep that out of this thread.
Force Recons - Role Bonus Change .
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Hydrogen
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.11 19:50:00 -
[286]
Edited by: Hydrogen on 11/11/2007 19:51:24
Originally by: Grytok I've made a new Thread especially for the new Role Bonus' for all Force Recons, to keep that out of this thread.
Force Recons - Role Bonus Change
Cool stuff. Like already shown, I got a somehow different vision, thus I am not a 100% fan of your suggestions, but:
1. they are thought out. 2. they work 3. they appear to be blanced 4. I lack the mention of modified ship bonus's, something which still needs tweaking (and if it is only the missing 95grid for Pilgrim).
PS: I would soo much be in love with CCP if they really made Pilgrim the solo stealth assassin, as I still believe it is what they invisioned it to be (and why I trained it). At least that is what it was (except vanish from local). __
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Depp Knight
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.11.11 23:06:00 -
[287]
/me Awaits for a damn change. Couple of months now, no change plently of good ideas.
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Cailais
Amarr W A R
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Posted - 2007.11.12 00:06:00 -
[288]
Well, having tested both the pilgrim and the curse on sisi Im feeling pretty despondent about the amarr recons.
Managed to drop onto a hurricane and apply a webbifier: surely a good chance? Nope. Barely scratched his shield, and then the pilgrim died a miserable death despite having 1600mm plate and a overheated MARII. My curse, well that didnt even last that long.
Its all pretty hopeless.
C.
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.
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Feng Schui
Minmatar The Ninja Coalition Drunken N Disorderly
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Posted - 2007.11.12 12:26:00 -
[289]
bump
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Hydrogen
Art of War
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Posted - 2007.11.12 20:19:00 -
[290]
Originally by: Cailais Well, having tested both the pilgrim and the curse on sisi Im feeling pretty despondent about the amarr recons.
Managed to drop onto a hurricane and apply a webbifier: surely a good chance? Nope. Barely scratched his shield, and then the pilgrim died a miserable death despite having 1600mm plate and a overheated MARII. My curse, well that didnt even last that long.
Its all pretty hopeless.
C.
Nahhhh, fast and easy death is by design (of current Pilgrim design). Makes you feel less miserable and makes it easier to decide for another ship ;) __
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Cailais
Amarr W A R
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Posted - 2007.11.12 21:11:00 -
[291]
Originally by: Hydrogen
Originally by: Cailais Well, having tested both the pilgrim and the curse on sisi Im feeling pretty despondent about the amarr recons.
Managed to drop onto a hurricane and apply a webbifier: surely a good chance? Nope. Barely scratched his shield, and then the pilgrim died a miserable death despite having 1600mm plate and a overheated MARII. My curse, well that didnt even last that long.
Its all pretty hopeless.
C.
Nahhhh, fast and easy death is by design (of current Pilgrim design). Makes you feel less miserable and makes it easier to decide for another ship ;)
Well, Ive finally completed the long road to command ships, Iwon't be buying anymore curse or pilgrims (I've just got one of each left now). Thinking of using my pilgrim as an exploration vessel - fitting cloak, scan probe launcher and maybe a hacking module. Not sue if it'll fit, but might do as a work horse for a bit.
C.
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.
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Grytok
KL0NKRIEGER
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Posted - 2007.11.13 01:03:00 -
[292]
Still not a simple "We're looking into the issue" so far from CCP
C'mon CCP, we're really trying to comeforward with some well thought out ideas .
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Der Komissar
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Posted - 2007.11.13 02:36:00 -
[293]
"They laugh and snicker from a far"
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Hydrogen
Art of War
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Posted - 2007.11.13 09:00:00 -
[294]
Originally by: Cailais
Well, Ive finally completed the long road to command ships, Iwon't be buying anymore curse or pilgrims (I've just got one of each left now). Thinking of using my pilgrim as an exploration vessel - fitting cloak, scan probe launcher and maybe a hacking module. Not sue if it'll fit, but might do as a work horse for a bit.
Actually: if you look at some suggestions of mine for Pilgrim changes, I suggested an Astrometrics bonus several times. 1. It would make the Pilgrim actually usefull as a semi-professional exploration vessel. 2. The Pilgrim could hunt down exploration sites and do those of sig strength 0.8 and higher. For lower sites it just lacks tank and firepower. 3. Amarr lack a low end scanning vessel in Frigate class. Thus only fair to offer a high end vessel by now.
At least one more role and an actual use for the Pilgrim... __
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Cailais
Amarr W A R
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Posted - 2007.11.13 11:18:00 -
[295]
Originally by: Hydrogen
Originally by: Cailais
Well, Ive finally completed the long road to command ships, Iwon't be buying anymore curse or pilgrims (I've just got one of each left now). Thinking of using my pilgrim as an exploration vessel - fitting cloak, scan probe launcher and maybe a hacking module. Not sue if it'll fit, but might do as a work horse for a bit.
Actually: if you look at some suggestions of mine for Pilgrim changes, I suggested an Astrometrics bonus several times. 1. It would make the Pilgrim actually usefull as a semi-professional exploration vessel. 2. The Pilgrim could hunt down exploration sites and do those of sig strength 0.8 and higher. For lower sites it just lacks tank and firepower. 3. Amarr lack a low end scanning vessel in Frigate class. Thus only fair to offer a high end vessel by now.
At least one more role and an actual use for the Pilgrim...
Its certainly an option if ccp don't want the pilgrim as 'combat' orientated vessel (and appears they don't). If the current cost of the ship drops below the 20mil mark it could be worth using in this fashion -perhaps as a support ship to the cov ops anathema.
C.
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.
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Kel Dario
Amarr Blue Sky Inc
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Posted - 2007.11.13 11:40:00 -
[296]
Originally by: Grytok Edited by: Grytok on 10/11/2007 14:27:17 To make a whole shot at the Force Recons, while giving the Pilgrim a buff, here are my suggestions.
Pilgrim: Amarr Cruiser Bonus: 5% bonus to Armor Resistances and 10% bonus to Drone damage and hitpoints per level. Recon Ship Bonus: 20% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Netralizer amount and 10% reduction in Energy Neutralizer capacitor use per level.
Arazu: Gallente Cruiser Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage and 10% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener effectiveness per level. Recon Ship Bonus: 20% bonus to warp disruptor range and 10% reduction in Remote Sensor Dampener capacitor use per level.
Rapier: MinMatar Cruiser Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire and 7.5% bonus to Target Painter effectiveness per level. Recon Ship Bonus: 60% bonus to Stasis Webifier range and 5% reduction in Signature Radius per level.
Falcon: Caldari Cruiser Bonus: 5% bonus to Shield Resistances and 20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer optimal range per level. Recon Ship Bonus: 10% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength and 10% reduction in ECM Target Jammer capacitor use per level.
Role Bonus (for all): 99% reduction to Covert Ops Cloaking Device CPU need and 100% reduction in targeting delay after decloaking.
Leave building cynos to disposable Cyno-Alts, as this is allready how it's done. Nobody uses 150 Million ISK ships to build cynos anymore.
Pilgrims problem is solved to some degree, while the others get some love too.
/Signed :D
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Hydrogen
Art of War
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Posted - 2007.11.13 13:47:00 -
[297]
Originally by: Cailais Its certainly an option if ccp don't want the pilgrim as 'combat' orientated vessel (and appears they don't). If the current cost of the ship drops below the 20mil mark it could be worth using in this fashion -perhaps as a support ship to the cov ops anathema.
So for this case it could be like:
Pilgrim: Amarr Cruiser Bonus: 5% bonus to Armor Resistances and 10% bonus to Drone damage and hitpoints per level. Recon Ship Bonus: 20% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer amount and 10% reduction in Energy Neutralizer capacitor use per level.
Role bonus: -98% to -100% reduced CPU need for cloaking device per level and 10% reduction to duration/activation time of modules requiring Astrometrics per level
Therefore some usability in PvP and some in PvE __
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Hydrogen
Art of War
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Posted - 2007.11.13 20:59:00 -
[298]
Originally by: Hydrogen So for this case it could be like:
Pilgrim: Amarr Cruiser Bonus: 5% bonus to Armor Resistances and 10% bonus to Drone damage and hitpoints per level. Recon Ship Bonus: 20% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer amount and 10% reduction in Energy Neutralizer capacitor use per level.
Role bonus: -98% to -100% reduced CPU need for cloaking device per level and 10% reduction to duration/activation time of modules requiring Astrometrics per level
Therefore some usability in PvP and some in PvE
Oha, not a single comment on this change? __
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Grytok
KL0NKRIEGER
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Posted - 2007.11.13 21:40:00 -
[299]
Sorry mate, I'd still prefer to get the targeting-delay removed from the Force Recons
Faster ScanningTime is only needed for probing down ships on SS. For probing complexes, it's not needed tbh.
And when you've probed down a ship and got him fast enough, because of your suggested bonus, it will warp away, the very momnet you decloak, having a 5 second targeting-delay.
It's a silly dog trying to catch his tail, you know .
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Hydrogen
Art of War
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Posted - 2007.11.14 10:20:00 -
[300]
Originally by: Grytok Sorry mate, I'd still prefer to get the targeting-delay removed from the Force Recons
Faster ScanningTime is only needed for probing down ships on SS. For probing complexes, it's not needed tbh.
And when you've probed down a ship and got him fast enough, because of your suggested bonus, it will warp away, the very momnet you decloak, having a 5 second targeting-delay.
It's a silly dog trying to catch his tail, you know
I understand you, still would be better than it is now... __
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