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d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 15:29:00 - [91] Edited by: d026 on 29/10/2007 15:30:34 Originally by: stahmul I don't call a single interceptor a "highly specialized" gang. so you buy a vaga. to kill it we need a huginn + support. balanced? i buy a deimos. to kill it we need a cerb or eagle or deimos or vaga or ishtar. balanced? yes!
stahmul	Posted - 2007.10.29 15:31:00 - [92] You don't "need" a Huginn or Rapier, they just make it easy and less risky to hold down a nanoship. An inty, a dictor, will work just fine to web someone. Who flies dictor or inty without speed fit? Okay, now how hard is it to run after someone and hold them down? Sure, you risk your ship, but SO IS THE NANOPILOT. Two inties? That nanopilot is now dead. Furthermore, the buff to inties is coming soon that will allow them to sustain their scramblers and mwd forever. Stop being so ******* lazy and stupid and be aware that you need to take risks yourself to get the fight from that nanoship. You can't just sit on the gates and expect people to suicide to your gaggle of poorly trained pilots.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 15:35:00 - [93] Originally by: stahmul You don't "need" a Huginn or Rapier, they just make it easy and less risky to hold down a nanoship. An inty, a dictor, will work just fine to web someone. Who flies dictor or inty without speed fit? Okay, now how hard is it to run after someone and hold them down? Sure, you risk your ship, but SO IS THE NANOPILOT. Two inties? That nanopilot is now dead. Furthermore, the buff to inties is coming soon that will allow them to sustain their scramblers and mwd forever. Stop being so ******* lazy and stupid and be aware that you need to take risks yourself to get the fight from that nanoship. You can't just sit on the gates and expect people to suicide to your gaggle of poorly trained pilots. ok i agree with you that you also need 2 people to hold ME down. so if you go to fast you wont be able to tackle anything and need to bring a friend to do this for you risking his ship to keep me pinned down.
Refazed The Silent Rage	Posted - 2007.10.29 15:37:00 - [94] Originally by: Inflexible Thats the problem - you actually need minmatar recon (ONE race's SINGLE shipclass) to actually force some random ghey to fight. 10km web is utterly useless against them. Without minmatar recon in gang you are guaranteed to not win any small PvP encounter, especially if you are caldari. Just like the fact that the attacker had no choice but to bring nano ships to have a chance to survive the bubbles and 10:1 odds they normally encounter when raiding 0.0 alliances. It works both ways. Nano ships are annoying at times but they are only annoying because they are difficult to kill. Difficult != bad but rather a challenge which makes the game fun. This game is already getting nerfed into whiner's online where setting goals and working toward them gets you jack **** in the end and blobs rule the day.
stahmul	Posted - 2007.10.29 15:39:00 - [95] Originally by: Refazed Originally by: Inflexible Thats the problem - you actually need minmatar recon (ONE race's SINGLE shipclass) to actually force some random ghey to fight. 10km web is utterly useless against them. Without minmatar recon in gang you are guaranteed to not win any small PvP encounter, especially if you are caldari. Just like the fact that the attacker had no choice but to bring nano ships to have a chance to survive the bubbles and 10:1 odds they normally encounter when raiding 0.0 alliances. It works both ways. Nano ships are annoying at times but they are only annoying because they are difficult to kill. Difficult != bad but rather a challenge which makes the game fun. This game is already getting nerfed into whiner's online where setting goals and working toward them gets you jack **** in the end and blobs rule the day. iawtc
Reacz Caldari Empirius Enigmus Navy Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.10.29 15:43:00 - [96] I view speed setups much like the old days of pirates and the Royal Navy on the open sea. In such that the pirates would often use fast agile ships to raid ports and towns and escape before the Royal Navy could respond in force. The Royal Navy's answer to such a predicament? Small, fast ships which were packed lots of guns. They were referred to as Sloops of War. We have something similar it is known as the interceptor; 3 or 4 of them will ruin any Vaga pilots day. And if that wasn't enough we are also getting EAS which will no doubt be able to pull off some fast speed tanks as well. All in all things don't look to bright for speed pilots. I think the real issue here is that killing a speed fit solo in lets say, a Battlecruiser is exceptionally hard because they can come in shoot you and escape before you've even fired a shot. A well organised inty gang however will eat Vagas for breakfast, or rather their support will. Solo you can ruin a Vaga pilots day with energy neuts or tracking disruptors incase you didn't know. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Valorem ([email protected])
Zenobite The Black Fleet	Posted - 2007.10.29 15:51:00 - [97] Originally by: Arlenna Molatov I would just like to point out that the other day I was shooting a vagabond with precision cruise missles, 2x T2 painters and all missle skills @ lv 4. My missles were STILL hitting for 0.0 damage!! This ship was doing 6600m/s. CCP, I would REALLY like to ask HOW in the damn hell are you supposed to fight a ship you cant hit?? It's faster than most interceptors and those should be the FASTEST ships in the game!! In a combat perspective, this has bogged the game down to virtually nothing. These ships can single handedly come in and kill ANYTHIGN while the other ship can do NOTHING because its not nearly as fast to catch the vagabond nor will ANY weapons system hit it for any dmg. You want to talk about a balance issue? Becauseif NANO ships are the end-all be-all to combat then I think EVE has outlived its playability. I could give a you know what to anyone else who is just going to spam useless crap and such. The facts speak for themselves. A Vagabond can kill ANY ship and hit them without that other ship being able to defend itsself. So CCP, i would really like to know the Devs thoughts on this issue or if they even think its an issue. Instead of whineing about ships being too fast, how about thinking of ways to take them out? Use a tracking disruptor on vaga and see how much damage they do then. We've used duel webing rifters to slow down a vaga long enough to get cruisers in range and take it out. Point is the the vaga pliot has sacrificed eveything for speed, so you have to use specialized tactics to defeat specialized ships, why should just pressing f1-f6 mean you win? The only nano ship I had a problem with was the nanophoon, as its mass made webs ineffective and heavy nos would murder ceptors, the nano nerf took them out and sensibly left the rest of the fast ships alone. Just beacause you can't think of way to deal with fast ships doesn't mean they should be nerfed.
Saint Luka The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.29 15:57:00 - [98] Its a variation of combat, we need more of those not less. What happens if nano's dont exist? Tanked ships going out and getting blobbed, all the time. Dont like missiles vs nanos? DONT FLY CALDARI. (Or the ****e amarr/gallente missile boats.) -
Inflexible Rytiri Lva	Posted - 2007.10.29 16:00:00 - [99] Originally by: Refazed Just like the fact that the attacker had no choice but to bring nano ships to have a chance to survive the bubbles and 10:1 odds they normally encounter when raiding 0.0 alliances. It works both ways. You SHOULD die in bubblecamp with 1:10 odds. You only reinforce my point.
stahmul	Posted - 2007.10.29 16:03:00 - [100] Originally by: Inflexible Originally by: Refazed Just like the fact that the attacker had no choice but to bring nano ships to have a chance to survive the bubbles and 10:1 odds they normally encounter when raiding 0.0 alliances. It works both ways. You SHOULD die in bubblecamp with 1:10 odds. You only reinforce my point. No, you shouldn't. see, that's where you alliance blobber whiners lose. We found a way to beat your bubble camps. You shouldn't be able to lock down a system with a single large bubble and a couple sniper battleships. I'm sure that's what all the alliances would love, but you cannot do that anymore, and that is why EVE is better now. What's the counter to some homos camping a gate with a large bubble and 20 ships? 40 ships? a carrier? CCP is trying to discourage blobbing, not make it more prevalent. For the sake of the game and the sake of the servers. Why don't you build a bridge and get the **** over it?
Inflexible Rytiri Lva	Posted - 2007.10.29 16:09:00 - [101] Edited by: Inflexible on 29/10/2007 16:15:24 Originally by: stahmul Originally by: Inflexible Originally by: Refazed Just like the fact that the attacker had no choice but to bring nano ships to have a chance to survive the bubbles and 10:1 odds they normally encounter when raiding 0.0 alliances. It works both ways. You SHOULD die in bubblecamp with 1:10 odds. You only reinforce my point. No, you shouldn't. see, that's where you alliance blobber whiners lose. We found a way to beat your bubble camps. You shouldn't be able to lock down a system with a single large bubble and a couple sniper battleships. I'm sure that's what all the alliances would love, but you cannot do that anymore, and that is why EVE is better now. What's the counter to some homos camping a gate with a large bubble and 20 ships? 40 ships? a carrier? CCP is trying to discourage blobbing, not make it more prevalent. For the sake of the game and the sake of the servers. Why don't you build a bridge and get the **** over it? Not true. It encourages blobbing if you need 5+ ships to catch single cruiser. edit: I understand that you have fun flying unmolested anywhere you please to and gank random n00bs, but if there is much more ppl trying to intercept you, they also deserve to have some fun. They are putting MUCH more effort than you to it. At least because it YOU who choose time and place, they just have to wait.
Akkarin Pagan Minmatar Raddick Explorations Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.10.29 16:23:00 - [102] Originally by: OneSock Vaga needs a speed nerf to bring it in line with top speeds of the other racial HACs. Just the same as the Eos needs DPS nerf to bring it in line with the other Fleet commands. CCP Yup. Let's nerf the Vaga so it goes the same speed as the other hacs, then see who flys them. You'll end up with a paper ship that doesn't go very fast. Minmatar don't get a true tanking HAC. Our version is the Vagabond. It speed tanks instead. While I wouldn't be averse to Vagas top end after deadspace + snakes being reduced a bit, the Vaga is mostly fine. Most people forget about the crappy dps you do with your Barrage M ammo, and it's 0.25% tracking mod while you're orbiting at 15k while doing 4k/s. The only issue with the Vaga is that it is hard to kill. Making them go away isn't hard if you work as a team. Akkarin Hopefully the mods won't play with this one <3 - Immy
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.29 16:28:00 - [103] Guys, you bring your normal gang + 1 huginn wich is nanod or tanked and now the opposing team can't do jack.. I just dont see the problem when the counter is so simple, 1 huginn.
Refazed The Silent Rage	Posted - 2007.10.29 16:28:00 - [104] Originally by: Inflexible You SHOULD die in bubblecamp with 1:10 odds. You only reinforce my point. Answer one question. Why should you die to a bubblecamp with 10:1 odds if they are poorly set up? Is there no place for skirmish warfare in this game? are numbers the only 'fair' way to win? The vaga is a master of hit and run warfare. Be kinda hard to be a master of it if it wasn't any faster then a thorax. You have a save carriers and mom banner in your sig. I am a carrier pilot and agree, I also agree with the nano ship pilots. They are saying the same thing as the carrier pilots which is "our ships are powerful under certain circumstances but it required a lot of training time and isk and we risk losing it all every time we undock". Sounds familiar doesn't it? Stop with the nerfs. If something is too hard to kill buff the counter but dont make the ship a flying coffin.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.29 16:30:00 - [105] This is bull****. CCP will never make the vagabond go slow. Knwowhy? Because it SHOUDL GO FAST. And it need to slow down to deal damage. its a ship that NEED some skill to use. One of the few!!!! The nano menace ended with the nano nerf. CCP never had anythign agaisnt small ships beign fast, but didnt want speed to be based on the number of low slots you have. Nanodomnis , those yes had no place on eve as well as nano mirmidons or for god sake, I even saw a nano DRAKE oncebefore the nerf. Those are WAY more powerful than a vagabond, because they don need to slow down to make damage. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Zenobite The Black Fleet	Posted - 2007.10.29 16:32:00 - [106] Originally by: Inflexible Edited by: Inflexible on 29/10/2007 16:15:24 Originally by: stahmul Originally by: Inflexible Originally by: Refazed Just like the fact that the attacker had no choice but to bring nano ships to have a chance to survive the bubbles and 10:1 odds they normally encounter when raiding 0.0 alliances. It works both ways. You SHOULD die in bubblecamp with 1:10 odds. You only reinforce my point. No, you shouldn't. see, that's where you alliance blobber whiners lose. We found a way to beat your bubble camps. You shouldn't be able to lock down a system with a single large bubble and a couple sniper battleships. I'm sure that's what all the alliances would love, but you cannot do that anymore, and that is why EVE is better now. What's the counter to some homos camping a gate with a large bubble and 20 ships? 40 ships? a carrier? CCP is trying to discourage blobbing, not make it more prevalent. For the sake of the game and the sake of the servers. Why don't you build a bridge and get the **** over it? Not true. It encourages blobbing if you need 5+ ships to catch single cruiser. edit: I understand that you have fun flying unmolested anywhere you please to and gank random n00bs, but if there is much more ppl trying to intercept you, they also deserve to have some fun. They are putting MUCH more effort than you to it. At least because it YOU who choose time and place, they just have to wait. So because people have found away to avoid you camping blob, you have to blob harder, so more people use nanos, is just me or can I see pattern here....
Enjackah Prophets Of a Damned Universe	Posted - 2007.10.29 16:34:00 - [107] 2007.10.29 02:52 Victim: dawood koplanski Alliance: Triumvirate. Corp: Exanimo Inc Destroyed: Vagabond System: 93PI-4 Security: 0.0 2007.10.25 03:57 Victim: Bobroglaz Alliance: DeStInY. Corp: Deviance Inc Destroyed: Vagabond System: 93PI-4 Security: 0.0 2007.10.19 01:09 Victim: XurM Alliance: Triumvirate. Corp: Wreckless Abandon Destroyed: Vagabond System: J-CIJV Security: 0.0 No problems killing Vaga's on our end. -- The universe sleeps and slumbers, led abound by the sounds of peace and safety... when around the corner comes destruction.
Stuart Price Caldari Havoc Inc	Posted - 2007.10.29 16:35:00 - [108] When does something become overpowered? If the answer is: "When it's required to compete in any meaningful way", then nanofits are overpowered. Let's take the comparison of speed vs. tank as a defensive mechanic. Two heavily tanked ships meet and start to fight. They can't break each other. BUT they can keep the other tackled for backup to arrive and tip the balance. Two nanoships meet each other and start to fight. They can't hit each other. BUT they're so fast one of them can just leave to end the fight before backup arrives. Speed is therefore better than tank. Now let's compare speed vs. gank as an offensive mechanic in gangs. Twenty battleships load up on damage mods and sensor booster and start roaming. They meet a few solo players and maybe a small gatecamp of battleships and cruisers. They melt them very quickly with staggeringly overwhelming firepower. They meet a nanogang coming the other way in 20 ships, a combination of Vagabonds, 'dictors and Ishtars. The battleships gang cannot hit the nanogang at all whereas the nanoships can pick a target and focus fire on it until it pops, because while their individual dps is low, 20 ships worth of it will still pop a target pretty fast. If the fight looks to be going against the battleship gang they can't leave as they're easily tackled. If the nanogang starts getting into trouble (maybe the battleships took heavy neuts or warped in a matari recon) they can just leave being too fast to stop. Speed wins again. What are the counters to tanking? 1. Find and exploit a resistance hole. 2. Brute force - go all out on damage mods and deal more dps than the tank can sustain. 3. Neuts/nos - if active tanking, can't run a rep/booster without cap. 4. Being friends - to add more damage. What are the counters to gank? 1. E-War - once jammed or damped out, they're sitting ducks. 2. Neuts/nos - if using hybrids or lasers, bleed their cap out. 3. Tracking disruptors - if using turrets. 4. Defender missiles - if using missiles and once defenders are fixed :p 5. A better tank that can take the punishment. 6. Better gank than them so they die faster than you do. What are the counters to speed? 1. A faster ship than them - but only if it can outfight them. Sending interceptors after nanohacs for example is largely suicide. 2. Neuts/nos - will scare them off if they're clever, will drop the MWD and allow them to be killed if they're not so clever. 3. Webbers - assuming they come within range. If they get in range of a normal web then they are idiots and deserve to die. 4. Minny recons ship - Monster web range although most will warp out as soon as they see one anywhere in the same region. Also, it means being able to fly those ships in particular which not everyone can do. 5. E-War - Jam them out of the fight and force them to run. Doesn't kill them though. So there ARE counters to nanoships but most don't actually result in a kill, unlike when countering other ship types/setups. This, again, makes nanoships overpowered. Some final questions: 1. How often do you see a nanoship in 0.0? 2. How often do you see a non-nanoship in 0.0? 3. Now think about how many of each type you've killed. Are the percentages anywhere near even? 4. Now think about how many of each type have killed you. Are the perectages anywhere near even? Not that any of this really makes a difference since nanfits are getting nerfed anyway, despite the impending forum whine. "I got soul but I'm not a soldier"
Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection	Posted - 2007.10.29 16:38:00 - [109] Edited by: Gorefacer on 29/10/2007 16:43:15 After the last couple of fights I've been in, I've realized that my Drake ends up watching fights 150km off the gate. Basically all I'm good for is support for the gangs fast ships to come back to, to bring the enemies faster ships in my range. I don't feel that there is any IN-BALANCE with nano ships. I have to change the ships I fly to be more useful in gangs, now that more and more gangs are nanogangs. I would much rather have the game mechanics change so that nano pilots would have to change their ships rather than the other way around, but that is just because our two ways of PVPing are at odds. Quite frankly I don't care if others playstyles are ruined for my benefit. Nano ships are an aspect of this game I don't enjoy currently, so my selfish opinion is that if they were speed reduced, I would be happy, much like nano pilots' selfish opinion is that they should stay, and I should change the ships I fly to accomodate them (as I am currently). People have different ways in which they enjoy playing the game. Many post crap claiming to KNOW whats BEST for the game. It's all opinions, so cast your vote and get off your high horse, we aren't debating whether or not the Earth is flat. Your opinion does not trump mine/others just because its yours, even if that's the way it feels in your head. Also: Changing ships for me isn't the end of the world, I am not unhappy with EVE as it is. Nano gangs cause minor irritation the way WCS fit ships used to, they will be nerfed or not and either way most will adapt. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Refazed The Silent Rage	Posted - 2007.10.29 16:46:00 - [110] Originally by: Gorefacer ... Quite frankly I don't care if others playstyles are ruined for my benefit. ... you could have said just this and saved a lot of typing.
Arial Stargazer The Evil Pirates	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:01:00 - [111] Wait i have an answer! web + Nano ships = dead
Inflexible Rytiri Lva	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:04:00 - [112] Originally by: Refazed Answer one question. Why should you die to a bubblecamp with 10:1 odds if they are poorly set up? Is there no place for skirmish warfare in this game? are numbers the only 'fair' way to win? It is very hard to be "properly set" if you want to kill nano. Nanos simply became new warpstabs. Originally by: Refazed You have a save carriers and mom banner in your sig. I am a carrier pilot and agree, I also agree with the nano ship pilots. They are saying the same thing as the carrier pilots which is "our ships are powerful under certain circumstances but it required a lot of training time and isk and we risk losing it all every time we undock". Sounds familiar doesn't it? Show me carrier which is capable of solo surviving medium sized gang. Carriers are in risk all the time they don't hug station or POS. In nano you have unfairly high chance of avoiding, bubbles, intys and on top you enjoy great degree of safespot immunity, because you can simly MWD in random direction and probes can't simply pinpoint you. I was against nerf which would leave one ship totally defenseless. Originally by: Refazed Stop with the nerfs. If something is too hard to kill buff the counter but dont make the ship a flying coffin. Actually, I'm not for nano nerf. I'm for webrange buff. Ordinary webs don't work well against nanoships and they are only counter you don't fly nano yourself. I believe I said everything I could in this thread, this is last post from me here... I hope someone from CCP will read it as well as other posts and will draw right conclusion (not necessarilly supporting my POV, simply right). PS: Sorry for terrible english, I did what I could.
hydraSlav Synergy Evolved Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:12:00 - [113] Originally by: Boomershoot or HI sphere, you decide What has HIs got to do with webbing? == Above comments are my personal views Oveur >Local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:22:00 - [114] Originally by: Drasked Guys, you bring your normal gang + 1 huginn wich is nanod or tanked and now the opposing team can't do jack.. I just dont see the problem when the counter is so simple, 1 huginn. to kill a deimos with fit a i use fit b on my muninn. to kill a sacrilege with fit c i use fit d on my deimos. to kill a vagabond in a sacrilege i need a huginn/rapier. dont this strike you odd?
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:28:00 - [115] Originally by: d026 Originally by: Drasked Guys, you bring your normal gang + 1 huginn wich is nanod or tanked and now the opposing team can't do jack.. I just dont see the problem when the counter is so simple, 1 huginn. to kill a deimos with fit a i use fit b on my muninn. to kill a sacrilege with fit c i use fit d on my deimos. to kill a vagabond in a sacrilege i need a huginn/rapier. dont this strike you odd? I find it hard to believe that you could kill any of those ships if they are fit for speed with anything other then something that counters speed.
gigglle	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:29:00 - [116] Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Carriers then Nanos and then Cap Boosters. What's next? mwds ...
Rexthor Hammerfists Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:31:00 - [117] what i hate about nanogangs is that its so easy to avoid combat with em, they can choose their targets and easily flee when they deem its needed. nanos prevent fights everyday, say no to nanos ;) -
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:32:00 - [118] there lies the problem. there arent any viable counters to speed execpt: 1. speed which only a minority of ships can use to they're advantage 2. long range webs which only are available from a minmatar recon 3. long range scrams which again are only available from gallente recons so to effectively disable 1 speed fit i need a combination of long range webbers and long range scrams which i cant fit on my ordinary ship. but to kill any other ship i have the required modules available and i can fit them on any ship!
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:40:00 - [119] Originally by: d026 there lies the problem. there arent any viable counters to speed execpt: 1. speed which only a minority of ships can use to they're advantage 2. long range webs which only are available from a minmatar recon 3. long range scrams which again are only available from gallente recons so to effectively disable 1 speed fit i need a combination of long range webbers and long range scrams which i cant fit on my ordinary ship. but to kill any other ship i have the required modules available and i can fit them on any ship! I agree with the fact that the counters to speed might be a bit limited, but this does not take away from how crazy effective it is, you guys make it sound like if you have a huginn and arazu in your gang and the moon is at a specific degree from the sun and earth that you have a 3.2% chance to have a 12.9% chance to catch a nanod ship, this is not the case.
Pheonix Kanan Caldari Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:42:00 - [120] Edited by: Pheonix Kanan on 29/10/2007 17:44:28 Originally by: Gorefacer ... Quite frankly I don't care if others playstyles are ruined for my benefit. ... It's this attitude that will be the end of this game and all others like it. It is this single statement that makes Eve, in all it's inventiveness and creativity, completely and utterly fail. If we can't play nice, why play at all? Edit: By the way, did everyone here forget the mention that the new tech 2 minmatar frigate can web to about 20km? Sounds like a good thing to take on nano gangs. Originally by: Curzon Dax shrugs Play the game the way you want to, and respect other peoples' ability to do the same.

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