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Gefex	Posted - 2007.10.30 11:27:00 - [211] Originally by: Semkhet Do you think that any mentally sane individual would not use the most performing tool in a given area provided he enjoys both the skills to use it properly and the money to own it ? Well thats kinda my point, Nanos = the 'best' tool at the moment so everyone is using them, when everyone starts to use the same thing then there is clearly an issue with balance. Originally by: Semkhet Do you think that if someone invests the same amount of isk required by an excellent nanopilot into a shield or armor tank, you would be able to break that tank without problems ? Hell, a Gist-B X-Large SB costs less than a low-grade snake set. Now let's see how easy you break a BS tank which can permarun such a booster... Not going to get into the whole 'counter' argument, but that 1 bill booster can be completely nullified by a couple of heavy neuts.
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.30 11:38:00 - [212] Edited by: Drasked on 30/10/2007 11:43:02 Originally by: Gefex Originally by: Semkhet Do you think that any mentally sane individual would not use the most performing tool in a given area provided he enjoys both the skills to use it properly and the money to own it ? Well thats kinda my point, Nanos = the 'best' tool at the moment so everyone is using them, when everyone starts to use the same thing then there is clearly an issue with balance. Originally by: Semkhet Do you think that if someone invests the same amount of isk required by an excellent nanopilot into a shield or armor tank, you would be able to break that tank without problems ? Hell, a Gist-B X-Large SB costs less than a low-grade snake set. Now let's see how easy you break a BS tank which can permarun such a booster... Not going to get into the whole 'counter' argument, but that 1 bill booster can be completely nullified by a couple of heavy neuts. Nano ships won't win you a pos war, so they are the best tool for a specific job. Also a 1bil nano setup can also be nullified by a couple of webs.
Semkhet KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.10.30 11:55:00 - [213] Originally by: Drasked Edited by: Drasked on 30/10/2007 11:43:02 Originally by: Gefex Originally by: Semkhet Do you think that any mentally sane individual would not use the most performing tool in a given area provided he enjoys both the skills to use it properly and the money to own it ? Well thats kinda my point, Nanos = the 'best' tool at the moment so everyone is using them, when everyone starts to use the same thing then there is clearly an issue with balance. Originally by: Semkhet Do you think that if someone invests the same amount of isk required by an excellent nanopilot into a shield or armor tank, you would be able to break that tank without problems ? Hell, a Gist-B X-Large SB costs less than a low-grade snake set. Now let's see how easy you break a BS tank which can permarun such a booster... Not going to get into the whole 'counter' argument, but that 1 bill booster can be completely nullified by a couple of heavy neuts. Nano ships won't win you a pos war, so they are the best tool for a specific job. Also a 1bil nano setup can also be nullified by a couple of webs. My point exactly. There's no "I-Win" button in EvE. Rather ships and pods that have been optimized to the last bit to excel in a very specific job. And circumstancially it happens that the vast majority of whiners don't excel in any particular ingame area but in forum whining
Inflexible Rytiri Lva	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:02:00 - [214] Originally by: Semkhet ...Once he's orbiting below 23 Km... So what were you saying ? That a vaga does not have counter ? You missed the point. There is nothing wrong or overpowered with vaga willing to fight. Nanoships (in general, not only vaga) not willing to fight ARE pain.
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:05:00 - [215] Edited by: Drasked on 30/10/2007 12:06:55 Originally by: Inflexible Originally by: Semkhet ...Once he's orbiting below 23 Km... So what were you saying ? That a vaga does not have counter ? You missed the point. There is nothing wrong or overpowered with vaga willing to fight. Nanoships (in general, not only vaga) not willing to fight ARE pain. Then its up to you to make them willing to fight, ie. pose as having 2 people instead of 20. Its quite simple, if im in an uber tanked bs and i dont want to fight, i dont fight. Your basicly saying that people that dont want to fight are a pain, well DUHOOOOOOOOOOOH this we already knew.
Mc Fraser Enterprise Estonia Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:12:00 - [216] to OP: remeber that the vagabond cant orbit very long with this speed so u just need to tank a bit and if he slows down u hit him bretty well :)
Gefex	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:21:00 - [217] Originally by: Drasked Nano ships won't win you a pos war, so they are the best tool for a specific job. They are suited to a multitude of jobs, but I don't think you understand what i'm saying to you, unless you want this to become a game of nanoships online then something has to give. You can defend it till the cows come home, come up with new counters on a daily basis, but the fact is more and more people are jumping into these fits on a daily basis. Jumping on the bandwagon as it were. I can see it now, huge roaming blobs of vaga's and ishtars, that never actually get to shoot anything because they cant catch each other.
Baleur Miners In Barges Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:22:00 - [218] Originally by: Arlenna Molatov I would just like to point out that the other day I was shooting a vagabond with precision cruise missles, 2x T2 painters and all missle skills @ lv 4. My missles were STILL hitting for 0.0 damage!! This ship was doing 6600m/s. CCP, I would REALLY like to ask HOW in the damn hell are you supposed to fight a ship you cant hit?? It's faster than most interceptors and those should be the FASTEST ships in the game!! In a combat perspective, this has bogged the game down to virtually nothing. These ships can single handedly come in and kill ANYTHIGN while the other ship can do NOTHING because its not nearly as fast to catch the vagabond nor will ANY weapons system hit it for any dmg. You want to talk about a balance issue? Becauseif NANO ships are the end-all be-all to combat then I think EVE has outlived its playability. I could give a you know what to anyone else who is just going to spam useless crap and such. The facts speak for themselves. A Vagabond can kill ANY ship and hit them without that other ship being able to defend itsself. So CCP, i would really like to know the Devs thoughts on this issue or if they even think its an issue. Dude, there are counters for ships going that fast.. Its called Stasis Webifiers. Enjoy your newfound knowledge! ------------------------- This post represents my entire corporation's views and opinions. ;>
Gericault m0id Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:28:00 - [219] Read http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=625332
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:29:00 - [220] Originally by: Gefex Originally by: Drasked Nano ships won't win you a pos war, so they are the best tool for a specific job. They are suited to a multitude of jobs, but I don't think you understand what i'm saying to you, unless you want this to become a game of nanoships online then something has to give. You can defend it till the cows come home, come up with new counters on a daily basis, but the fact is more and more people are jumping into these fits on a daily basis. Jumping on the bandwagon as it were. I can see it now, huge roaming blobs of vaga's and ishtars, that never actually get to shoot anything because they cant catch each other. I do notice the increasing populairity of nano fits, i also notice the increasing ammount of nubs on my killboard that get raped in their nano ships because they believe the majority of noobs in threads like these about it being uber hard to catch nano ships.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:30:00 - [221] Originally by: Baleur Dude, there are counters for ships going that fast.. Its called Stasis Webifiers. Enjoy your newfound knowledge! ohh no.. why didnt i think about this. and how am i supposed to get into webrange?
Semkhet KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:34:00 - [222] Originally by: Inflexible Originally by: Semkhet ...Once he's orbiting below 23 Km... So what were you saying ? That a vaga does not have counter ? You missed the point. There is nothing wrong or overpowered with vaga willing to fight. Nanoships (in general, not only vaga) not willing to fight ARE pain. No need to refer to nanoships for peeps who don't want to fight. Someone really needs to be pathologically incompetent to enter a fight against his will given the amount of tactics you can rely on to provide field intel except for cloaked ships. Besides, people leave battlefields every day by simply tanking and slowboating back to the gate, you want to nerf that too ? And let's be realistic here. Go check killmails, and study setups of pwned ships. Sometimes you will find jewels like Huginn/Rapiers fielding T1 webs, caldari ships fielding hull repairers, and other smart moves like 5 months old players getting popped in battleships. It takes two to dance a tango, and some players have already lost the fight before they even undock, they just don't know it yet.
Hugh Ruka Caldari Free Traders Free Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:34:00 - [223] inertia mechanics ? I mean the faster you go, the more force you need to apply to change your direction/speed. So let's make ships harder to change direction with more speed. Same works for acceleration. The faster you go, the slower your ship accelerates. This way a vaga pilot going 6kms will only be able to fly in a straight line until he slows down to a speed that allows him to change direction. This will not make missiles hit them better, but makes life of the nano pilot harder and more susceptible to turret hits. Originally by: Aravel Thon Originally by: Nith Batoxxx Hi my alt just leanred to fly the ferox............... I am so so terribly sorry...
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:38:00 - [224] Originally by: d026 Originally by: Baleur Dude, there are counters for ships going that fast.. Its called Stasis Webifiers. Enjoy your newfound knowledge! ohh no.. why didnt i think about this. and how am i supposed to get into webrange? By moving?
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:40:00 - [225] Originally by: Drasked Originally by: d026 Originally by: Baleur Dude, there are counters for ships going that fast.. Its called Stasis Webifiers. Enjoy your newfound knowledge! ohh no.. why didnt i think about this. and how am i supposed to get into webrange? By moving? sorry i dont go that fast..
Semkhet KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:43:00 - [226] Originally by: d026 Originally by: Baleur Dude, there are counters for ships going that fast.. Its called Stasis Webifiers. Enjoy your newfound knowledge! ohh no.. why didnt i think about this. and how am i supposed to get into webrange? If you don't fit a speed setup and you refer to 1vs1, you are NOT supposed to get into web range YOURSELF, but instead oblige your opponent to enter said range by damping or track disrupting. But don't come whining on boards again if your opponent got a brain and leaves the battlefield after seeing that he can't fight on his own terms. Do you ignore that the first rule to win is to know when NOT to fight ?
Semkhet KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:45:00 - [227] Originally by: Hugh Ruka inertia mechanics ? I mean the faster you go, the more force you need to apply to change your direction/speed. So let's make ships harder to change direction with more speed. Same works for acceleration. The faster you go, the slower your ship accelerates. This way a vaga pilot going 6kms will only be able to fly in a straight line until he slows down to a speed that allows him to change direction. This will not make missiles hit them better, but makes life of the nano pilot harder and more susceptible to turret hits. This has already been done with the Istab stacking nerf. Why do you think that Nanophoons and the likes have disappeared ?
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:50:00 - [228] Edited by: d026 on 30/10/2007 12:50:44 Originally by: Semkhet Edited by: Semkhet on 30/10/2007 12:47:43 Originally by: d026 Originally by: Baleur Dude, there are counters for ships going that fast.. Its called Stasis Webifiers. Enjoy your newfound knowledge! ohh no.. why didnt i think about this. and how am i supposed to get into webrange? If you don't fit a speed setup and you refer to 1vs1, you are NOT supposed to get into web range ALL BY YOURSELF, but instead oblige your opponent to get close to said range by damping or track disrupting for example. But don't come whining on boards again if your opponent obviously got a brain and leaves the battlefield after understanding that he can't fight on his own terms. Do you ignore that the first rule to win is to know when NOT to fight ? thats the problem. if you damp, ecm, send drones after them they just leave. i dont have any viable tools to keep him in place and having him commiting to a fight. so the vaga is always dictating the outcome of a fight. which imho is completely imbalanced.
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:51:00 - [229] Edited by: Drasked on 30/10/2007 12:55:57 Originally by: Semkhet Originally by: d026 Originally by: Baleur Dude, there are counters for ships going that fast.. Its called Stasis Webifiers. Enjoy your newfound knowledge! ohh no.. why didnt i think about this. and how am i supposed to get into webrange? If you don't fit a speed setup and you refer to 1vs1, you are NOT supposed to get into web range YOURSELF, but instead oblige your opponent to enter said range by damping or track disrupting. But don't come whining on boards again if your opponent got a brain and leaves the battlefield after seeing that he can't fight on his own terms. Do you ignore that the first rule to win is to know when NOT to fight ? QFT, ships should not be balanced for 1on1 fights, this is a mmo, make a plan, get a friend and kill that nano guy. (this is directed at d026) Stop repeating how hard or impossible this is, ITS NOT. Since i am perfectly able to kill nano ships and you just cant seem to figure out how to, it just looks to me like your a newb at pvp.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:52:00 - [230] Edited by: d026 on 30/10/2007 12:52:22 Originally by: Drasked QFT, ships should not be balanced for 1on1 fights, this is a mmo, make a plan, get a friend and kill that nano guy. then remove the vagas excellent soloability to.. its a mmo remember?
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:57:00 - [231] Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 30/10/2007 12:52:22 Originally by: Drasked QFT, ships should not be balanced for 1on1 fights, this is a mmo, make a plan, get a friend and kill that nano guy. then remove the vagas excellent soloability to.. its a mmo remember? Since when can a vaga solo kill something?
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:59:00 - [232] Originally by: Drasked Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 30/10/2007 12:52:22 Originally by: Drasked QFT, ships should not be balanced for 1on1 fights, this is a mmo, make a plan, get a friend and kill that nano guy. then remove the vagas excellent soloability to.. its a mmo remember? Since when can a vaga solo kill something? since the day the were introduced?
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.30 13:00:00 - [233] Originally by: d026 Originally by: Drasked Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 30/10/2007 12:52:22 Originally by: Drasked QFT, ships should not be balanced for 1on1 fights, this is a mmo, make a plan, get a friend and kill that nano guy. then remove the vagas excellent soloability to.. its a mmo remember? Since when can a vaga solo kill something? since the day the were introduced? !!!EPIC FAILURE ALERT!!!EPIC FAILURE ALERT!!! If a ship of the same size or bigger gets solod by a vagabond your comitting the act of COMPLETE FAILURE. !!!EPIC FAILURE ALERT!!!EPIC FAILURE ALERT!!!
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.30 13:11:00 - [234] Originally by: d026 Originally by: Phocas Lebournes OP, not every ship can by default win against any other ship on its own. Rapier or Huginn is your best friend against a vagabond. every ship can beat the opposites setup somehow. except none can win against a vaga without webbing/scrambling support except another faster vaga.. oo and no ship can ever win against a tank ship except if setup for high damage.. your point? What you want next? that a covert ops frigate can kill a tempest? If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.30 13:23:00 - [235] Edited by: d026 on 30/10/2007 13:24:01 Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: d026 Originally by: Phocas Lebournes OP, not every ship can by default win against any other ship on its own. Rapier or Huginn is your best friend against a vagabond. every ship can beat the opposites setup somehow. except none can win against a vaga without webbing/scrambling support except another faster vaga.. oo and no ship can ever win against a tank ship except if setup for high damage.. your point? What you want next? that a covert ops frigate can kill a tempest? see counter to tank gank or neuts. all those result in the destruction of the tanked ships. none of the counters to speedfits you keep mentioning result in the destruction of the vaga.
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.30 13:33:00 - [236] Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 30/10/2007 13:24:01 Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: d026 Originally by: Phocas Lebournes OP, not every ship can by default win against any other ship on its own. Rapier or Huginn is your best friend against a vagabond. every ship can beat the opposites setup somehow. except none can win against a vaga without webbing/scrambling support except another faster vaga.. oo and no ship can ever win against a tank ship except if setup for high damage.. your point? What you want next? that a covert ops frigate can kill a tempest? see counter to tank gank or neuts. all those result in the destruction of the tanked ships. none of the counters to speedfits you keep mentioning result in the destruction of the vaga. 1 huginn results in the easy destruction of a vagabond, other tactics result in a good chance to destruct the vagabond with ease.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.30 13:39:00 - [237] Originally by: Drasked Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 30/10/2007 13:24:01 Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: d026 Originally by: Phocas Lebournes OP, not every ship can by default win against any other ship on its own. Rapier or Huginn is your best friend against a vagabond. every ship can beat the opposites setup somehow. except none can win against a vaga without webbing/scrambling support except another faster vaga.. oo and no ship can ever win against a tank ship except if setup for high damage.. your point? What you want next? that a covert ops frigate can kill a tempest? see counter to tank gank or neuts. all those result in the destruction of the tanked ships. none of the counters to speedfits you keep mentioning result in the destruction of the vaga. 1 huginn results in the easy destruction of a vagabond, other tactics result in a good chance to destruct the vagabond with ease. but thats not the issue. if i have to bring a huggin to nail you down ffs you have to bring a ceptor to nail me down. its not acepptable that you can fly solo and have all the benefits and i have to bring a smal gang to evetually counter you.
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.30 13:49:00 - [238] Originally by: d026 but thats not the issue. if i have to bring a huggin to nail you down ffs you have to bring a ceptor to nail me down. its not acepptable that you can fly solo and have all the benefits and i have to bring a smal gang to evetually counter you. Look, a vaga can not solo something of the same class or bigger. Bringing a huginn to the table result in a confirmed kill if you play your cards right. Besides that there is a multitude of other tricks to catch them wich im not going to share with you. A solo vagabond can not pose a thread to you, unless your caught with your pants down, in wich case you need to die. Also i dont see what your problem is with vagabonds, there are some other ships wich are a lot more dangerous then a vagabond when set up for speed, a solo vagabond fit for speed is one of the lowest dangers on my list.
Semkhet KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.10.30 13:59:00 - [239] Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 30/10/2007 12:50:44 Originally by: Semkhet Edited by: Semkhet on 30/10/2007 12:47:43 Originally by: d026 Originally by: Baleur Dude, there are counters for ships going that fast.. Its called Stasis Webifiers. Enjoy your newfound knowledge! ohh no.. why didnt i think about this. and how am i supposed to get into webrange? If you don't fit a speed setup and you refer to 1vs1, you are NOT supposed to get into web range ALL BY YOURSELF, but instead oblige your opponent to get close to said range by damping or track disrupting for example. But don't come whining on boards again if your opponent obviously got a brain and leaves the battlefield after understanding that he can't fight on his own terms. Do you ignore that the first rule to win is to know when NOT to fight ? thats the problem. if you damp, ecm, send drones after them they just leave. i dont have any viable tools to keep him in place and having him commiting to a fight. so the vaga is always dictating the outcome of a fight. which imho is completely imbalanced. And which structural difference exists between a Vaga deciding to leave a 1vs1 fight thanks to its speed with any player assessing the potential threat you represent before deciding to engage or not ? Don't you realize that most of the time, you have no means to detect that a given player has determined the probability of engaging you as negative, and just went it's own way ? You can't know WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW for pete's sake. If you dislike nanoships so much, train a Curse at lvl5 and you will represent such a threat that you won't even see their butts anymore.
Retnik 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.10.30 16:38:00 - [240] Edited by: Retnik on 30/10/2007 16:44:01 Edited by: Retnik on 30/10/2007 16:39:46 Eos/Myrmidon Counters Heavy AND Medium Drones Large Blasters/Rails/Beams/Pulse/AC/Artillary Medium Blasters/Rails/Beams/Pulse/AC/Artillary A bunch of Small Blasters/Rails/Beams/Pulse/AC/Artillary Missile Spammage of all sorts Neuts Webs Damps Tracking Disruptors Blobs of the above Pilot Error Vagabond Counters Huginn/Rapier Heavy Neuts (with a web) Pilot Error (you damn sure better have a web when he screws up) Webs (See above) (Oh wait guns missiles won't hit you can't put there there) And my drone ships are getting nerfed. Balance \o/ _______________________________________

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