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Arlenna Molatov Caldari The 59th Parallel	Posted - 2007.10.29 07:05:00 - [1] I would just like to point out that the other day I was shooting a vagabond with precision cruise missles, 2x T2 painters and all missle skills @ lv 4. My missles were STILL hitting for 0.0 damage!! This ship was doing 6600m/s. CCP, I would REALLY like to ask HOW in the damn hell are you supposed to fight a ship you cant hit?? It's faster than most interceptors and those should be the FASTEST ships in the game!! In a combat perspective, this has bogged the game down to virtually nothing. These ships can single handedly come in and kill ANYTHIGN while the other ship can do NOTHING because its not nearly as fast to catch the vagabond nor will ANY weapons system hit it for any dmg. You want to talk about a balance issue? Becauseif NANO ships are the end-all be-all to combat then I think EVE has outlived its playability. I could give a you know what to anyone else who is just going to spam useless crap and such. The facts speak for themselves. A Vagabond can kill ANY ship and hit them without that other ship being able to defend itsself. So CCP, i would really like to know the Devs thoughts on this issue or if they even think its an issue.
Zolian	Posted - 2007.10.29 07:06:00 - [2] First in a nano whine thread.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.29 07:10:00 - [3] He is nearly immune to missiles while going at that speed (the painters don't help in this case, but they would help for turrets). At the same time, his guns can't really hit anything either while going at that speed.
cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.10.29 07:12:00 - [4] I once saw two ships perma-tank each other. Most. Boring. Fight. Ever... until friends arrived. --- Join BH-DL
Rhaegor Stormborn Pestilent Industries Amalgamated The Volition Cult	Posted - 2007.10.29 07:12:00 - [5] Carriers then Nanos and then Cap Boosters. What's next? Rhaegor Stormborn Fleet Admiral - Pestilent Industries Amalgamated [PIA] Recruitment Thread
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.10.29 07:14:00 - [6] missiles suck when hitting fast targets... sorry. now those painters would of let autocannons hit. because sigradius effects tracking as well. then over heat a web. I will agree that 6600 is too much. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP need...more room...
Compendium	Posted - 2007.10.29 07:15:00 - [7] An "I Win" button on a Gallente ship.
F90OEX	Posted - 2007.10.29 07:16:00 - [8] Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Carriers then Nanos and then Cap Boosters. What's next? Nano Titan , oh wait...
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2007.10.29 07:19:00 - [9] No matter how much you hate "nerf threads" , whatnot, it is a tad ludicrous that a cruiser, heavy cruiser none the less, is going faster then an interceptor. No going around it. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.29 07:31:00 - [10] Originally by: Sheriff Jones No matter how much you hate "nerf threads" , whatnot, it is a tad ludicrous that a cruiser, heavy cruiser none the less, is going faster then an interceptor. No going around it. I don't think there's an interceptor in the game that can't easily be fitted to go faster than that. And read the Stabber and Vagabond's descriptions.
Zana Kito Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.29 07:36:00 - [11] Vagabonds going 6.6km/s is nothing. Try fighting vagas going 10km/s or more.. Or Sabres flying at 9.6km/s. Or 12km/s crows.. Snake implants (stacking multiplications leads to hax numbers) and rigs simply unbalanced the game mechanics when it comes to speed. A lot of folks may enjoy going that fast, hey, who wouldn't enjoy being god-mode versus everything except for huggins and rapiers? But devs have stated in the past they never intend ships to fly this fast. So argue as you all may, it will be balanced/nerfed again.
Banana Torres The Green Banana Corporation	Posted - 2007.10.29 07:38:00 - [12] Originally by: Reem Fairchild He is nearly immune to missiles while going at that speed (the painters don't help in this case, but they would help for turrets). At the same time, his guns can't really hit anything either while going at that speed. Yes, you are correct. But also very wrong. Cause of course I don't fit guns, I fit missiles.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2007.10.29 07:41:00 - [13] Originally by: Reem Fairchild And read the Stabber and Vagabond's descriptions. First you're assuming i haven't, second, descriptions mean basically nothing. Read half the Amarr ship descriptions. But... Originally by: Zana Kito But devs have stated in the past they never intend ships to fly this fast. So argue as you all may, it will be balanced/nerfed again. This is rather much the truth. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.10.29 07:42:00 - [14] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Originally by: Reem Fairchild And read the Stabber and Vagabond's descriptions. First you're assuming i haven't, second, descriptions mean basically nothing. Read half the Amarr ship descriptions. But... Originally by: Zana Kito But devs have stated in the past they never intend ships to fly this fast. So argue as you all may, it will be balanced/nerfed again. This is rather much the truth. devs have also stated that they don't want to kill the nano ship. p.s.... that vagabond would not of been able to hit **** without misslies when going 6600, the game would stop letting your turrets hit anything at 3000m/s ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP need...more room...
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.10.29 07:46:00 - [15] Look how stupid you are. You died to a vaga, suprise. Clearly you're a carebear, you dont understand his setup or why it beats yours. Most interceptors can go that fast, if they spent as much as that vaga pilot did they would in fact go faster. Read the description, its the fastest cruiser around. Cruise are the most overpowered BS weapon there is imo since they frag frigates and bs's with equal ease. Vagabonds CANNOT kill any ship, they have trouble with my taranis ffs... they also have trouble with my dominix... and megathron... and thorax... and vexor in the right circumstances, its not hard to scare one off, their tank is crap and their DPS is low for a HAC. BS's should not be win buttons, try a different setup. Nanos are keeping this game alive for many pvp pilots (5 vs 50 is bad.) p.s. target painters wont help, hes already the size of a moon with his MWD on.
Dianeces Minmatar Repo Industries	Posted - 2007.10.29 07:48:00 - [16] Edited by: Dianeces on 29/10/2007 07:50:19 Originally by: Sheriff Jones No matter how much you hate "nerf threads" , whatnot, it is a tad ludicrous that a cruiser, heavy cruiser none the less, is going faster then an interceptor. No going around it. Assuming the pilot didn't use implants of any sort, the only way for a Vagabond to reach 6.6km/s is through the use of faction equipment and polycarbons. While I won't try to argue that ISK should be a balancing factor (I do believe it should confer an advantage), I will point out that any interceptor with faction equipment or polycarbs will outpace a Vaga easily. Also, with that much transversal, he'd be lucky to hit a titan, let alone a Drake. Running a T2 MWD permanently will cap a Vaga out in 3 minutes 14 seconds. If the OP managed to lose a Drake to a Vaga perma-running that MWD for the entire length of a 3 minute engagement, he deserved to lose it, as the only DPS would have come from 5 light drones. What we have here is a forum whiner OP who believes all the hype the anti-nano crowd throws around, judging from his uneducated post. Anyone who believes a solo Vaga can kill any ship needs to have a good hard look at what sort of tank they're mounting on their BC/CS/BS. @OP: 2/10 for effort Quote: Cristobalus DeMora > so what do the forums say? Jaleean Atheria > smack smack smack flame smack flame smack smack flame alt post flame flame flame smack flame click
Chromakey Dreamcoat Caldari Model Of Aggression	Posted - 2007.10.29 07:49:00 - [17] Edited by: Chromakey Dreamcoat on 29/10/2007 07:51:00 So people are supposed to armor tank the vagabond when in its description it states: Minmatar Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire and 5% bonus to max velocity per level Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret falloff range and 5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage per level Seriously, learn how to play this game. Please read the missile guide. I don't understand how people can just throw some guns/launchers on their ships and expect to kill everything they come across. I really do believe this is the carebear mentality where most of the mechanics of this game are a mystery. The giant red blobs on the star map make more sense after reading one of these "complaint" threads.
Zephyr Zhang coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.29 07:51:00 - [18] 1. The vaga was always intended to be fast, a heavy interceptor if you will. 2. 1 heavy Neut will cause all them missiles to start hurting. 3. u suck stop whining gtfo 4. /b/lackup! Monks Iz Back
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2007.10.29 07:54:00 - [19] Originally by: Dianeces Assuming the pisnip10 for effort Yeah i know, it probably is one of those "extreme" cases. Just seems, to me personally, a bit silly. Cruiser, going at an interceptor speed...well you know what i mean. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.10.29 08:03:00 - [20] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Originally by: Dianeces Assuming the pisnip10 for effort Yeah i know, it probably is one of those "extreme" cases. Just seems, to me personally, a bit silly. Cruiser, going at an interceptor speed...well you know what i mean. one thing I've wondered about would be like... letting everyship have whatever speed it wants in a striaght line, it is space afterall, there shuold be nothing if eve used real pysics :P but then have a new skill for orbit speed. like vagabond could have a... 4000m/s speed cap when orbiting only. hmmm... nvm meaning these fast pilots would have to manually spin and dash attack. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP need...more room...
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.29 08:08:00 - [21] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Originally by: Reem Fairchild And read the Stabber and Vagabond's descriptions. First you're assuming i haven't, second, descriptions mean basically nothing. Read half the Amarr ship descriptions. But... They're meant to go fast. Their description says so, and their stats make it possible. I think it's funny that you think 6,6 km/s is faster than an interceptor. 6.6 km/s is on the slow side for many interceptors. The Claw can do 7.7 km/s without rigs, implants or faction equipment of any kind. Just a simple tech 2 fit.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.29 08:11:00 - [22] Originally by: Banana Torres Originally by: Reem Fairchild He is nearly immune to missiles while going at that speed (the painters don't help in this case, but they would help for turrets). At the same time, his guns can't really hit anything either while going at that speed. Yes, you are correct. But also very wrong. Cause of course I don't fit guns, I fit missiles. It has a whopping 2 launcher slots. Good luck killing anything with that.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2007.10.29 08:13:00 - [23] Originally by: Reem Fairchild They're meant to go fast. Their description says so, and their stats make it possible. I think it's funny that you think 6,6 km/s is faster than an interceptor. 6.6 km/s is on the slow side for many interceptors. The Claw can do 7.7 km/s without rigs, implants or faction equipment of any kind. Just a simple tech 2 fit. Assume assume assume, no read, that's the way to troll. Good job! Like i said, the description means nothing. Read the amarr descriptions and then come back here and say all those ships are just as described. I didn't say "them are fasterz!" or that interceptors can't outrun them, i said it's ridiculous that they go the same speed. OR IN SIMILAR speeds. A cruiser, flying at 6.6km/s, is ridiculous. TO ME. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Das Lol Gallente Internet Space Fighters	Posted - 2007.10.29 08:18:00 - [24] Edited by: Das Lol on 29/10/2007 08:24:59 Bring a Rapier or a Huginn or a few interceptor pilots who know what they're doing. If your goal is 'scare him off', unless he's marvelously stupid this will work 100%. If the goal is to make him die, then I would like to stress the 'know what they're doing' part. Though once a Vaga's trapped, it's made of paper. 'The Vagabond that I couldn't kill shouldn't be able to operate well in this situation!' is exactly the same as: 'That Raven (I'm just assuming here) shouldn't be able to kill everything without refitting!' Nano ships are not the end-all of EVE combat. I have personally been on both sides of this situation, too. How are you supposed to fight a ship you can't hit? By thinking laterally and being smart. Ingenuity wins the day. Catch him with a dictor and a smart group of support. Or chase/bait him into a dead-end system and lock the area down. Or, maybe, just maybe, don't come crying here when you can't win with f1-f8, nej?
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.29 08:20:00 - [25] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Originally by: Reem Fairchild They're meant to go fast. Their description says so, and their stats make it possible. I think it's funny that you think 6,6 km/s is faster than an interceptor. 6.6 km/s is on the slow side for many interceptors. The Claw can do 7.7 km/s without rigs, implants or faction equipment of any kind. Just a simple tech 2 fit. Assume assume assume, no read, that's the way to troll. Good job! Like i said, the description means nothing. Read the amarr descriptions and then come back here and say all those ships are just as described. I didn't say "them are fasterz!" or that interceptors can't outrun them, i said it's ridiculous that they go the same speed. OR IN SIMILAR speeds. A cruiser, flying at 6.6km/s, is ridiculous. TO ME. I think you're projecting with the trolling commment. Ok, whatever you say. Descriptions are meaningless. Look at it's bonuses, mass, base speed and number of low slots, and then tell me it's not intended to be fast by design (on CCP's part). A Vagabond is not a normal cruiser. You should worry more about the seriously fast Vagabonds out there. The ones that can do 12+ km/s.
Zana Kito Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.29 08:29:00 - [26] Originally by: Reem Fairchild I think you're projecting with the trolling commment. Ok, whatever you say. Descriptions are meaningless. Look at it's bonuses, mass, base speed and number of low slots, and then tell me it's not intended to be fast by design (on CCP's part). A Vagabond is not a normal cruiser. You should worry more about the seriously fast Vagabonds out there. The ones that can do 12+ km/s. Oh it IS fast by design. But that was before rigs and snake implants multiplied all the default stats. Multiplications = possibility for insane numbers to happen.
Mr Friendly That it Should Come to This Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2007.10.29 08:32:00 - [27] Originally by: Sheriff Jones No matter how much you hate "nerf threads" , whatnot, it is a tad ludicrous that a cruiser, heavy cruiser none the less, is going faster then an interceptor. No going around it. 'heavy' doesn't refer to mass, it's damage potential.. any more than heavy hitters refers to fat people slugging it out while making grotesque wheezing sounds irrelevant to the OP, I know. @OP Well, I guess an inty with a web would have ruined that Vaga's day. Was the Vaga able to kill anything at that speed, or was it just frustrating? I understand wanting to break your keyboard because of nano**, but he's set up to go fast... set up to counter that speed, and his paper thin tank snaps. __________________________________________________ Originally by:** Passcal dude.....your name
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.10.29 08:35:00 - [28] Originally by: Mr Friendly set up to counter that speed, and his paper thin tank snaps. And this is why, in fact, nano set ups are balanced.
Viashivan Amarr FM Corp Insomnia.	Posted - 2007.10.29 08:37:00 - [29] not just to you... but hey, we get the paladin to compensate or counter vagas....
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.29 08:40:00 - [30] Originally by: Zana Kito Originally by: Reem Fairchild I think you're projecting with the trolling commment. Ok, whatever you say. Descriptions are meaningless. Look at it's bonuses, mass, base speed and number of low slots, and then tell me it's not intended to be fast by design (on CCP's part). A Vagabond is not a normal cruiser. You should worry more about the seriously fast Vagabonds out there. The ones that can do 12+ km/s. Oh it IS fast by design. But that was before rigs and snake implants multiplied all the default stats. Multiplications = possibility for insane numbers to happen. (And there's also boosters, gang bonuses and so on...) But the latest big adjustment to speed mods and how speed works in general came this spring when we already had all of that. I'll agree that the 10+ km/s Vagabonds and the 20+ km/s interceptors (I think the record is in the 50s with boosters, gang bonuses, a Claymore nearby, overheating, etc. ...) are out of bounds. But 6-7 km/s on a Vagabond is hardly that bad if you have an expensive fit or implants.
Darcuese Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.29 08:53:00 - [31] Vagas and some dictors have speed bonuses and its ok for them to fly that fast (if so, something i can live with). What's bother me is that ishtars can fly 6.5km as well. Ships that dont have speed bonuses in description. You mention ways to kill fast ships (painters, etc,etc) but also, you mentioned their damage while at speed isnt that good. With ishtars you have even more anoying problem cause they dont need good tracking when all their killing is done by drones. So, conclusion, no need for speed bonus ships to be nerfed, nerf those that are not built to fly that fast me, myself and I ------>
Bum Slave	Posted - 2007.10.29 09:06:00 - [32] NERF ARLENNA NERF HER NERF HER!!! SHES PLAYING AND UNBALANCING MY BALANCE OMG NERF!1!11eleven
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.10.29 09:08:00 - [33] Originally by: Darcuese Vagas and some dictors have speed bonuses and its ok for them to fly that fast (if so, something i can live with). What's bother me is that ishtars can fly 6.5km as well. Ships that dont have speed bonuses in description. You mention ways to kill fast ships (painters, etc,etc) but also, you mentioned their damage while at speed isnt that good. With ishtars you have even more anoying problem cause they dont need good tracking when all their killing is done by drones. So, conclusion, no need for speed bonus ships to be nerfed, nerf those that are not built to fly that fast I know dice isnt really into pvp... but a nano ishtar is actually very gimped compared to the nano boats of other races. Your drones are VERY vulnerable while you are at high speed and orbitting outside web range... unless you can tank your target with your weak passive shield tank (sometimes possible with drakes) to stay close to them and scoop/relaunch drones then you are pretty much boned. Nano ishtar pilots also stand to lose their drone kit... 5mil per failed engagement sound like fun? thats expensive ammo. The nano ishtar also has trouble vs other nano hacs, because its drones cannot keep pace with the fight unless it has a web (further gimping its already weak shield tank) And an ishtar travelling at 6km/s isnt cheap... although isk shouldnt = win, a nanoishtar pilot who is really moving fast is putting a lot of isk behind a weak tank. The only time ishtars are better than other nano hacs is in a group engagement when targetting someones drones isnt a realistic option... they are still weakened by the fact that their DPS takes forever to get to each target but they do have good dps once they get there. Also... Target painters dont kill fast ships... Running shield extenders and an MWD makes your sig comparable to a small moon.
Horus Dark	Posted - 2007.10.29 09:09:00 - [34] Edited by: Horus Dark on 29/10/2007 09:09:09 "A Vagabond can kill ANY ship and hit them without that other ship being able to defend itsself" hahahahahahahahahahaha You dont deserve a decent reply sorry.
Darcuese Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.29 10:08:00 - [35] You mentioning faults of nanno ishtar mostly comparing it to other speed ships :/...right. Mentioning costs of drones he wont scoop it if so.....right :/. 6.5k, no matter how isk you invest in modules or implants is far more then it should be for ship without any speed bonus as natural, in my book ofc (im not GOD to preach). And no matter if his sig radius shine as sun while going at that speed, its still harder to be hit for lot more ships then his drones can do damage to those. And btw, costs of drones is one of cheapest there is, cause its most common loot in many fights (no matter small skirmish or larger fleet) me, myself and I ------>
WowZilla The Leeroy Jenkins Project	Posted - 2007.10.29 10:14:00 - [36] Only clueless people want to nerf the vaga. I've given up discussing it with these people, the list of counters to cripple and kill it is endless. Props, you dont understand the game. P.S I hate you.
Lord Zoran Caldari House of Tempers	Posted - 2007.10.29 10:14:00 - [37] nanophoon > vaga so far its 3 - 0 to my nanophoon --------------------------------------------- no sig for you !!! Yarr!?!?!?!?!
Azirapheal Amarr The Bastards	Posted - 2007.10.29 10:15:00 - [38] erm your over 6 months late. the nano istab nerfs were brought in to screw over 4kms geddons and throns. vagas were always supposed to be fast. simple soloution - tracking computers gang work, an inty with a good web tbfh one mistake and its bye bye 100mill vag
Lord DeFault Minmatar Satanic Red Insurgency	Posted - 2007.10.29 10:20:00 - [39] "Nano Ships" are not the problem. Leave them in. Problem is the newbs, that only nanagank single targets And wouldn't engage in a fair fight to save there mothers life. End of the day they canÆt defend there home systems like this lol I am dreading this with small recon ships as well. But the days of a good old 1v1 are over. Tis sad though, I mean now days you just don't take a BS/BC out much, Agility is better than some brut force. :( Vagabonds are only deadly cos there rig'ed, Inplated, oftern with faction mwd's. poping them is so much fun... For the Republic
Gaven Blands	Posted - 2007.10.29 10:30:00 - [40] Nano = best way to save your ship, given that Warp Coward Stabilizers got nerfed. Counter To Ship: Noun. Something that negates what they brought, and invariably results in their ship's demise. Counter To Nano (tm): Noun. Something that can make a nano pilot activate his Micro Warp Coward Stabilizer and leave the battle. No ship destruction is required as the community does not like to see nanoexplosions. RunMail (tm): Noun. Introduced in 2009 by CCP under continued pressure from the Vagabond pilots ironically. Once the nano playerbase had reach 98% and nobody had received a killmail since late July 2008 when somebody accidentally overheated the GISTII XXL Micro Chicken Drive and it shut down, it was decided that simply causing somebody to run away would have to be the new metric of "win". -- Awwwww Diddums! Did I wardec your highsec alt recently or something?
u die Minmatar Sugarcane Technologies	Posted - 2007.10.29 10:53:00 - [41] Edited by: u die on 29/10/2007 10:53:56 Originally by: Arlenna Molatov I would just like to point out that the other day I was shooting a vagabond with precision cruise missles, 2x T2 painters and all missle skills @ lv 4. My missles were STILL hitting for 0.0 damage!! This ship was doing 6600m/s. CCP, I would REALLY like to ask HOW in the damn hell are you supposed to fight a ship you cant hit?? It's faster than most interceptors and those should be the FASTEST ships in the game!! In a combat perspective, this has bogged the game down to virtually nothing. These ships can single handedly come in and kill ANYTHIGN while the other ship can do NOTHING because its not nearly as fast to catch the vagabond nor will ANY weapons system hit it for any dmg. You want to talk about a balance issue? Becauseif NANO ships are the end-all be-all to combat then I think EVE has outlived its playability. I could give a you know what to anyone else who is just going to spam useless crap and such. The facts speak for themselves. A Vagabond can kill ANY ship and hit them without that other ship being able to defend itsself. So CCP, i would really like to know the Devs thoughts on this issue or if they even think its an issue. I'm not a DEV, just a friendly alt, but I attempt to help you out. So you say you could not kill a cruiser with a BS, which is a typical "adapt or die" thing... ...how about using heavy neutralizers (almost said NOS, but NOS is useless since many whine threads got wrecking it for nerfbat damage. If NOS yould be still useful, it would be easy to get rid of vagabonds...*)? Instead of complaining, people should start thinking. Cant you sacrifice a slot on your PWNmachine? A fast ship sacrifices its tank. How about you, do you have a high slot for save your ass, or its easier just complaining than outsmarting others? And others bandwagoning in a nano-whine thread: If you cant kill a cruiser, or at least escape from scramble range with a BS, then you are: - not fitted for the task - unlucky - noob pick one. ;) *blame those, who whined about NOS. ________________________________________________
JaxxFunk Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.29 11:02:00 - [42] Originally by: umop 3pisdn Look how stupid you are. You died to a vaga, suprise. Clearly you're a carebear, you dont understand his setup or why it beats yours. Most interceptors can go that fast, if they spent as much as that vaga pilot did they would in fact go faster. Read the description, its the fastest cruiser around. Cruise are the most overpowered BS weapon there is imo since they frag frigates and bs's with equal ease. Vagabonds CANNOT kill any ship, they have trouble with my taranis ffs... they also have trouble with my dominix... and megathron... and thorax... and vexor in the right circumstances, its not hard to scare one off, their tank is crap and their DPS is low for a HAC. BS's should not be win buttons, try a different setup. Nanos are keeping this game alive for many pvp pilots (5 vs 50 is bad.) p.s. target painters wont help, hes already the size of a moon with his MWD on. this You aint seen me...right
Van Steiza Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.29 11:05:00 - [43] I find it really ***** annoying how you mother *** 3 to 5 month chars maybe not the op specificaly but im makin ga genralisation come along and make bias opinions about things that need to be nerfed and ** the game up. Half the time you dont know what your on about no wait the majority of the time, You just come along see some people comeplain AND BAM you want it nerfed when you aint even flown the thing or seen it urself. Mann Eve is just....
JaxxFunk Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.29 11:16:00 - [44] Basically, if you get a web on a vaga, 9 times out of 10 he will die because of his poor dps and tank. If you get a web on any other hac however, they still have a good chance because they will have good dps and/or tank. There's your balance. Not every vaga goes 6.6km/s, he's obviously spent a lot of isk on his ship. Should it not therefore be harder to kill than a cheaply fitted vaga? Are you going to whine for Domi's to be nerfed when one pwns you? Or will you keep your mouth shut because you fly Domi's? You aint seen me...right
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2007.10.29 11:19:00 - [45] By the way, might be 'cause i'm no 5-6month year old, but i wasn't "crying" for a nerf here. Personally speaking. I just don't find a cruiser to be THAT fast. 2.5km, sure, 3, maybe, but 6k/s just is a bit over the line. I know it's due to a few tipi's full of isk, but it's a personal taste thing, as said, to me My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Demje	Posted - 2007.10.29 11:34:00 - [46] Originally by: Zana Kito Vagabonds going 6.6km/s is nothing. Try fighting vagas going 10km/s or more.. Or Sabres flying at 9.6km/s. Or 12km/s crows.. Snake implants (stacking multiplications leads to hax numbers) and rigs simply unbalanced the game mechanics when it comes to speed. A lot of folks may enjoy going that fast, hey, who wouldn't enjoy being god-mode versus everything except for huggins and rapiers? But devs have stated in the past they never intend ships to fly this fast. So argue as you all may, it will be balanced/nerfed again. this is a very preemptive but, F@#(*$&@#n finally.
JaxxFunk Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.29 11:40:00 - [47] Originally by: Demje Originally by: Zana Kito Vagabonds going 6.6km/s is nothing. Try fighting vagas going 10km/s or more.. Or Sabres flying at 9.6km/s. Or 12km/s crows.. Snake implants (stacking multiplications leads to hax numbers) and rigs simply unbalanced the game mechanics when it comes to speed. A lot of folks may enjoy going that fast, hey, who wouldn't enjoy being god-mode versus everything except for huggins and rapiers? But devs have stated in the past they never intend ships to fly this fast. So argue as you all may, it will be balanced/nerfed again. this is a very preemptive but, F@#($&@#n finally. I doubt CCP will unnecessarily nerf one of the only good ships Minmatar have. Mind you, what am I saying. CCP love nerfing Minmatar. You aint seen me...right*
Elles D Caldari Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.29 11:57:00 - [48] Originally by: Sheriff Jones No matter how much you hate "nerf threads" , whatnot, it is a tad ludicrous that a cruiser, heavy cruiser none the less, is going faster then an interceptor. No going around it. Firstly, my vaga goes around 6.6k/s and i can tell you this, it is far from invulnurable. That said your statement regarding the interceptor is false. If the vaga was indeed going at that speed then ergo it had polycarbons fitted; spend the same amount of isk on an interceptor and it will hit 8k at least.
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2007.10.29 12:01:00 - [49] Its not faster than any inties, You need to use a Webifier, GO back to wow.
u die Minmatar Sugarcane Technologies	Posted - 2007.10.29 12:02:00 - [50] Originally by: Sheriff Jones By the way, might be 'cause i'm no 5-6month year old, but i wasn't "crying" for a nerf here. Personally speaking. I just don't find a cruiser to be THAT fast. 2.5km, sure, 3, maybe, but 6k/s just is a bit over the line. I know it's due to a few tipi's full of isk, but it's a personal taste thing, as said, to me You were bandwagoning in a whine thread with the OP, that sums all IMHO, you whine. You may call it telling your opinion, its the same, you were supporting a bad thing (whine beacuse of one of those 3 things i mentioned in my previous post), worse you didnt even had real considered opinion, just had time to talk crap. You are saying, but not telling. You say 6K/s is too much, but you dont tell why. If its too much, just because you dont like variety, then i say "please CCP make a black hole in Sheriff Jones's pod now", cause i dont like you, because you post stupid things. Before posting your opinion, you should know the game mechanics first. A cruiser orbiting with 2.5 K/s maximum means it flies normally about 1.4 K/s, the surplus speed is from 100M ISK modules each and a 1B ISK implant set, count how much that would cost. So we have a cruiser going with 1.4 K/s orbiting with MWD without spending 1B+ ISK on it. Yeah, this is the fastest one. And its DEAD because of its signature radius big as a moon, even a blind turtle could hit it, if its webbed also, then it dies twice. What if its pimped? Whe could have a cruiser, flying 2.5 K/s with a signature radius of a moon and it costs about 1.5B ISK. Tell me, who the hell would attempt to use speed tank on a cruiser class ship anymore, risking 1.5B ISK for a 2.5K/s flying moon without real firepower, which can be tackled easily with even the slowest T1 fitted interceptor? So your opinion means "ok guys, lets kill an aspect of PVP, modify the demand on cruiser-class high-end modules and implants on market, just because i dont like variety and im a noob". Please avoid posting. Its harmful. ________________________________________________
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2007.10.29 12:11:00 - [51] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 29/10/2007 12:12:25 Originally by: u die You were bandwagoning in a whine thread with the OP, that sums all IMHO, you whine. You may call it telling your opinion, its the same, you were supporting a bad thing (whine beacuse of one of those 3 things i mentioned in my previous post), worse you didnt even had real considered opinion, just had time to talk crap. Apologies for the great internet police for making a statement that i CLEARLY said was "TO ME". As in, an opinion, not a fact/cause for concern. I, in my mind, on my own, as i feel, don't feel that cruisers should go past the 3km/s mark. You have your opinion on it, but the difference is, i don't call your opinion about it crap, call you a whienr, or anything else for that matter. I let you have your opinion and even said, on this very thread, that it's an understandable, if different, opinion and it's reasonable. But no, you must be with us or against us, 'cause that's how the "adult" MMO people work right? Don't start with the "forum warrior" attitude with me, i'm quite certain you'll end up at the wrong end of the stick. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Jita TradeAlt	Posted - 2007.10.29 12:22:00 - [52] vagabonds and most nano ships have weak tanks and very moderate/poor dps, just get a rapier or huginn and they can't do anything but run(except if you're alone they'll kill you so dont be alone)
Wild Rho Amarr GoonFleet	Posted - 2007.10.29 12:24:00 - [53] Disagree with the OP. Eve is really running out of options in pvp that are not simply tank or gank, speed tanks provide something different and can be countered with a little effort. Once you get a webber on a speed tanked ship it's going to go down very fast.
Criza Amarr United Warriors	Posted - 2007.10.29 12:25:00 - [54] I hate people that ***** about these kind of things.Who's problem is it that you don't have the money to buy the snake/low-grade snake set? Or that you don't want to spend 400-500 mil on some domination modules so that you can go that fast with a vaga or any other shipp that you preffer.A vaga going 6600 m/s is not extremly fast at all my friend.Modules that are used to make a nano shipp have been nerfed already otherwise we would still have typhoons and dominixes that go 8000 m/s so please learn how to play the game or stfu. (I am not a vaga pilot BTW) http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/0703/criza_120.jpg
Gaia Thorn Mentally Unstable Enterprises	Posted - 2007.10.29 12:32:00 - [55] Well when you think a cruiser going 6km/s is to much for you is like saying that the gank mega does to much dmg when dealing 1300dps compared to other BS. It's a specialized ship with exspensive equipment (faction/snakes) why shouldnt it perform like a interceptor. I mean i can get my crow doing almost 20 km/s with snakes and gistii booster and such. So why complain about ships that requires a fair bit of specilisation. The vagas are fine and the ishtars. The second you start to spec. your ship you always compromise something else in theese both cases are tank. And the vaga one of the best belt hunting ships ingame atm thats what they are almost designed for.
Banana Torres The Green Banana Corporation	Posted - 2007.10.29 12:37:00 - [56] Edited by: Banana Torres on 29/10/2007 12:37:38 Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Banana Torres Originally by: Reem Fairchild He is nearly immune to missiles while going at that speed (the painters don't help in this case, but they would help for turrets). At the same time, his guns can't really hit anything either while going at that speed. Yes, you are correct. But also very wrong. Cause of course I don't fit guns, I fit missiles. It has a whopping 2 launcher slots. Good luck killing anything with that. Which is why when I am in a Vagabond I am also in a gang with other Vagabonds. But, I am experimenting with the Sacrilege. Atm it goes at 4.4Km/s using only t2 stuff and without slaves. It will never get to the speed of the Vagabond, but it has 5 launchers. I don't have enough skill with HAMs to use them yet. But even with unbonused heavy missiles it can do sufficient damage that I will try soloing it in lowsec.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 12:38:00 - [57] I agree! Nerf speed to a point where its acceptable or introduce long range webifiers. Imho no ship should outrunn guns and missiles. At least not missiles. WMD should be a tactical tool to get in and out of a fight quick.. But not a tanking tool (its not a tanking tool at all its a 100% dmg avoiding tool)
u die Minmatar Sugarcane Technologies	Posted - 2007.10.29 12:44:00 - [58] Originally by: Sheriff Jones But no, you must be with us or against us, 'cause that's how the "adult" MMO people work right? Ok, how about this: v 2.0¯ A cruiser orbiting with 2.5 K/s maximum means it flies normally about 1.4 K/s, the surplus speed is from 100M ISK modules each and a 1B ISK implant set, count how much that would cost for nothing. We have a cruiser going with 1.4 K/s orbiting with MWD without spending 1B+ ISK on it and we are talking about the fastest one. And its DEAD because of its signature radius big as a moon, even a blind turtle could hit it, if its webbed also, then it dies before a sec. What if its pimped with rare and expensive modules? Whe could have a cruiser, flying 2.5 K/s (ok, be it 3K/s, does not matter) with a signature radius of a moon and it costs about 1.5B ISK. Tell me, who the hell would attempt to use speed tank on a cruiser class ship anymore, risking 1.5B ISK for a 2.5K/s flying moon without real firepower, which can be tackled easily with even the slowest T1 fitted interceptor? One more thing. In PVP there we can talk about 3-4 useful Minmatar ships. 2 of them are speedtanked by default. If you keep supporting the OP with your opinion (cause that is what you do, even if you decline the whine-thing), you just agree in lets make the recon ships the only useful class in minmatar. So your opinion means "ok guys, lets kill an aspect of PVP (speed tank), modify the demand on cruiser-class high-end modules and some implants on market, nerf Minmatar to a 1-ship-race, just because i wasnt thinking about the consequences, but i still have an opinion and im not afraid of telling it". I hope this was polite enough. What do you say? ________________________________________________
The Economist	Posted - 2007.10.29 12:52:00 - [59] Nerfed already, nothing more to do. You only get silly speeds by spending silly amounts of isk, at which point you're flying a glass rocket. Big slow ships can no longer get up to ultra-silly speeds, nor can they reach frigate agility, cruiser-sized nano speeds are not excessive and again agility is slightly lacking (a cruiser class, with the exception of the vaga, isn't gonna go much over 4k/s without a very expensive mwd/snakes/maxed claymore/booster/overloading), even an inty isn't going to go over 10k/s unless you spend some serious isk (even 10k/s already means you've spent a chunk). Lots of counters, low firepower, crap to mediocre agility, no tank: Balanced. Now please: STFU already and stop being drama queen just because your cruise missiles couldn't damage something fast. Sig removed. Please keep sigs to 400x120 pixels and 24000 bytes in size or less. -Kaemonn
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 12:53:00 - [60] Originally by: The Economist Nerfed already, nothing more to do. You only get silly speeds by spending silly amounts of isk, at which point you're flying a glass rocket. Big slow ships can no longer get up to ultra-silly speeds, nor can they reach frigate agility, cruiser-sized nano speeds are not excessive and again agility is slightly lacking (a cruiser class, with the exception of the vaga, isn't gonna go much over 4k/s without a very expensive mwd/snakes/maxed claymore/booster/overloading), even an inty isn't going to go over 10k/s unless you spend some serious isk (even 10k/s already means you've spent a chunk). Lots of counters, low firepower, crap to mediocre agility, no tank: Balanced. Now please: STFU already and stop being drama queen just because your cruise missiles couldn't damage something fast. thats exactely the problem. flying a 5bil glass rocket doesent really encourage pvp.
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Hooligans Of War Insurgency	Posted - 2007.10.29 13:01:00 - [61] Originally by: Azirapheal tbfh one mistake and its bye bye 100mill vag Actually a rigged T2 fit Vagabond is closer to 250mill. And to the OP, a 6.6km/s Vagabond is quite slow, now a 6.5km/s Sleipnir on the other hand. Jita fix: The distributed market hub
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2007.10.29 13:02:00 - [62] Originally by: u die One more thing. In PVP there we can talk about 3-4 useful Minmatar ships. 2 of them are speedtanked by default. If you keep supporting the OP with your opinion (cause that is what you do, even if you decline the whine-thing), you just agree in lets make the recon ships the only useful class in minmatar. So your opinion means "ok guys, lets kill an aspect of PVP (speed tank), modify the demand on cruiser-class high-end modules and some implants on market, nerf Minmatar to a 1-ship-race, just because i wasnt thinking about the consequences, but i still have an opinion and im not afraid of telling it". I hope this was polite enough. What do you say? More polite, yes, and glad you can put things into words without resorting to insults. But you're still assuming and reading too much into it. If i say, that it is my opinion, as a matter of "cruisers should fly this fast", i mean just that. There is no hidden agenda, no hidden "nerf minmatar" message and no tinfoil hats in my cake of lies. I'm simply saying, as a "taste of a matter", that i'd like if the high speeds were only the frigate classes privilege. I know they are not, and speed will not be nerfed(nor am i asking it), and i'm happy with things as they are, or if they change, either way, but it still doesn't debunk my opinion of how fast cruisers should be, compared to frigates. All this "speed mods, implants, bil isk there and here" talk isn't at all what i mean by it. And like i said, i understand how and why it goes that fast, and am not saying "it's bad m'kay", just voicing my opinion on cruisers and the possible speeds. Hopefully that answers it. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Banana Torres The Green Banana Corporation	Posted - 2007.10.29 13:02:00 - [63] Originally by: u die So your opinion means "ok guys, lets kill an aspect of PVP (speed tank), modify the demand on cruiser-class high-end modules and some implants on market, nerf Minmatar to a 1-ship-race, just because i wasnt thinking about the consequences, but i still have an opinion and im not afraid of telling it". I hope this was polite enough. What do you say? Well, atm, the Caldari have no nano-cruisers and the Gallente and Amarr have one each and they are not nearly as good as the Minmatar one. So, for fairness they other races should get a decent nano-cruiser or the Vagabond should have its wings clipped. Personally, I don't care which. More ships are better but nano-ships break one of the oft stated "good things" about Eve, that new players can make a difference. Well, to put it bluntly, they are just noise when you are in a nano-ship. You only fear some t2 ships that require a great deal of training to fly well.
The Economist	Posted - 2007.10.29 13:04:00 - [64] Originally by: d026 Originally by: The Economist Nerfed already, nothing more to do. You only get silly speeds by spending silly amounts of isk, at which point you're flying a glass rocket. Big slow ships can no longer get up to ultra-silly speeds, nor can they reach frigate agility, cruiser-sized nano speeds are not excessive and again agility is slightly lacking (a cruiser class, with the exception of the vaga, isn't gonna go much over 4k/s without a very expensive mwd/snakes/maxed claymore/booster/overloading), even an inty isn't going to go over 10k/s unless you spend some serious isk (even 10k/s already means you've spent a chunk). Lots of counters, low firepower, crap to mediocre agility, no tank: Balanced. Now please: STFU already and stop being drama queen just because your cruise missiles couldn't damage something fast. thats exactely the problem. flying a 5bil glass rocket doesent really encourage pvp. Guess you're right, I forgot that 90% of eve spends 5bil to fly one and that the other 10% cower in fear not daring to undock. Oh wait...I'm talking out of my arse, pvp is constantly raging all over eve, a tiny minority have real (expensive snaked-up etc) nano ships and the majority aren't even going fast enough to escape a good inty. You're right, they've killed pvp. Sig removed. Please keep sigs to 400x120 pixels and 24000 bytes in size or less. -Kaemonn
Imperius Blackheart Caldari Trinity Nova KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.29 13:06:00 - [65] My crow doubles his speed and it fitted with a web, had I been with you we would have won. Its that simple to counter it. Just take a mate in a good tackler. http://www.myspace.com/cakeisalie
u die Minmatar Sugarcane Technologies	Posted - 2007.10.29 13:39:00 - [66] Originally by: d026 just dont pimp it with overpriced mods and have some pvp instead? i also dont fit pith x-type boosters and high grade crystals on my pvp raven. instead of being scared all the time to lose your overly expensive ships you coudl just fit them a lil cheaper and have som efun instaead. this whole nanofag trend is destroying 0.0 pvp. not beacuse its impossible to kill nanos (its not easy either) but with such expensive ships you avoid any fight oyu could possibly lose and on the other hand the deffenders dont even bother to undock because its a logistic masterpiece to pin down a nanogang. Reducting extreemspeeds would help PVP on a big scale! ...no? Where you were wrong, i was not complaining, i was explaining why is a bad idea to nerf and its not question of ISK. All i said a technique could be wiped with a drastic change like that. Most people have more ships than one, i also keep some cheaper ships too in my hangar to use them if needed and i know many other people, who do the same. This avoid fight-thingie is totally player-dependent. There are people, who dont like similar odds and fight only if they can obviously outgun the enemy. OR just dont want to lose any ship. Nerfing anything wont change that and this is where you are wrong. No nerf will change that. All, what a speednerf could do, is make EVE less. Back to the interceptor gangs. Instead of vagabonds, you will get crows and taranises. Those are nasty too. Nerf the ceptors too? If you are bored, hit some goons, there are always some of them somewhere undocked, without snake implant set, so your missiles will hit. ;) ________________________________________________
OneSock Crown Industries	Posted - 2007.10.29 13:56:00 - [67] Vaga needs a speed nerf to bring it in line with top speeds of the other racial HACs. Just the same as the Eos needs DPS nerf to bring it in line with the other Fleet commands. CCP
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.10.29 13:59:00 - [68] God when will the nanowhines stop? Stop crying and learn some strategy. Maybe instead of a painter, you should be WEBBING HIM. Join Macrointel!
Sahjahn Caldari Sicarri Covenant	Posted - 2007.10.29 14:06:00 - [69] The Hyena will, when fitted right and piloted properly, be able to help a gang bring these oober fast ships to their knees. Capable of reaching interceptor speeds with ease and with a bonus to web range it should be able to get in to web range, web, orbit and hopefully last long enough for the rest of the gang to get nearby or to gank it.
hydraSlav Synergy Evolved Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2007.10.29 14:07:00 - [70] The problem is not with nanos... the problem is with wrong webs! The description says they "entangle the ship, slowing it down". That is complete bull**, cause they don't slow down the ship, nor entangle it. They cut max speed, and ship continues to cruise by momentum, and with 10km radius of the webs, ships simply cruise out of that radius Fix the fracking webs! Make them do what the description has been saying for ages. Make the slow down the ship. The web needs a modifier on the enemy ship so that it instantly reduces the ship's mass to close to 0. With no mass, ship's inertia/momentum will be almost non-existent, and the ship will actually slow down** == Above comments are my personal views Oveur >Local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat
Noveron Caldari Long Live Me	Posted - 2007.10.29 14:12:00 - [71] If devs never wanted ships to travel that fast it is kind of easy for them to retaliate this ubber speed. "Introduce a hard-maximun limit of speed any ship in the game can reach" For instance, if devs never wanted anything to go faster than 6000m/s. That should be the limit, so no matter that implants, what rigs or what ever you put on your ship, 6K/s will be the limit. Dada! Problem solved ---
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 14:31:00 - [72] Originally by: hydraSlav Edited by: hydraSlav on 29/10/2007 14:08:19 The problem is not with nanos... the problem is with wrong webs! The description says they "entangle the ship, slowing it down". That is complete bull**, cause they don't slow down the ship, nor entangle it. They cut max speed, and ship continues to cruise by momentum, and with 10km radius of the webs, ships simply cruise out of that radius Fix the fracking webs! Make them do what the description has been saying for ages. Make them slow down the ship. The web needs a modifier on the enemy ship so that it instantly reduces the ship's mass to close to 0. With no mass, ship's inertia/momentum will be almost non-existent, and the ship will actually slow down** or give us 40k webbers...
Xaldor	Posted - 2007.10.29 14:32:00 - [73] Add in a second ship with a webber and you have a 300 million isk scrap heap. Range with ACs is terrible, he is going to be in weapons range you will be able to web him with 2 ships.
Khes	Posted - 2007.10.29 14:33:00 - [74] I don't have a problem with ships going fastat all. They can go 1000km/s for all I care, but increase the mass, and increase the inertia.
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.29 14:37:00 - [75] Edited by: Setana Manoro on 29/10/2007 14:44:29 Edited by: Setana Manoro on 29/10/2007 14:39:54 Originally by: Arlenna Molatov I would just like to point out that the other day I was shooting a vagabond with precision cruise missles, 2x T2 painters and all missle skills @ lv 4. My missles were STILL hitting for 0.0 damage!! This ship was doing 6600m/s. CCP, I would REALLY like to ask HOW in the damn hell are you supposed to fight a ship you cant hit?? It's faster than most interceptors and those should be the FASTEST ships in the game!! In a combat perspective, this has bogged the game down to virtually nothing. These ships can single handedly come in and kill ANYTHIGN while the other ship can do NOTHING because its not nearly as fast to catch the vagabond nor will ANY weapons system hit it for any dmg. You want to talk about a balance issue? Becauseif NANO ships are the end-all be-all to combat then I think EVE has outlived its playability. I could give a you know what to anyone else who is just going to spam useless crap and such. The facts speak for themselves. A Vagabond can kill ANY ship and hit them without that other ship being able to defend itsself. So CCP, i would really like to know the Devs thoughts on this issue or if they even think its an issue. Shouldn't do this, but sometimes it is fun to answer whiners with no brains at all. Well, the T2 painters are useless at that speed, and you should know this, unless you want a f1-f8 game. Why ?; because T2 painters work only when the explosion velocity is high enough to actually catch up to the target, and with the MWD on he probably had the sig of a capital, not much 2 t2 painters can do at this point. Off-course, you should know this, but you don't care about this, you want EVE to be a no-thrills-f1-f8-game-with-i-win-button-level-75. This is not eve, i suggest you do the tutorial again. Now let's look at the Vagabond, 5km /s is tops what you can do with some hardwirings and no snakes, so 6.6 km/s means faction mods, and maybe a few snakes. That is a easy 500m in ship + rigs + implants. Off-course that you shouldn't be able to omgwtfpwn him with a t1 crap ship or whatever else you had. Again, you show your incredible lack of game mechanics knowledge when you say "These ships can single handedly come in and kill ANYTHIGN while the other ship can do NOTHING because its not nearly as fast to catch the vagabond nor will ANY weapons system hit it for any dmg." Vaga's only shoot with half dps - as they are in falloff and they may have tracking issues when they mwd, they eat a lot of ammo, they have virtually no active tank, they can die very easily to 1 heavy neutralizer equipped ship or one that is teamed up with a huginn/rapier. They do not have the dps to kill almost anything near stargates/stations as they can be tanked and the target will dock/deagress. As to this line "I could give a you know what to anyone else who is just going to spam useless crap and such. The facts speak for themselves. A Vagabond can kill ANY ship and hit them without that other ship being able to defend itsself.". Well sir, you are an idiot, angry one too. Learn to play the fracking game. Do the tutorial again, as you seem to lack some very basic game mechanics knowledge. PS: I agree with the BoB guy on page 2 though. Nano-Ishtar is a bit too overpowered atm. PPS: I used to fly a t2 fitted Malediction with 2 Auxiliary Thruster rigs, with gang bonuses 9km/s was easy. And that is slow. :) Failgeddon wrecks CCP for XXX annoyed customers !
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.29 14:44:00 - [76] Nanos already got nerfed, this just proofs how fail some people are in countering something.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 14:46:00 - [77] just tell me one thing. how do you web a super fast ship? if you web it the next second hes out of webrange anyway (inertia/serversync/lag) and arround 50k from you. ok you have a huginn, you webb him at 30-40k what does he do? he instawarps! so the only way to catch him is to have a hugin + a ship with 40k scram range and a lot of luck you have enough firepower to bring him down bevore he starts to do the log/relog game. and thats just for solo. facing a gang consisting of superfast targets you clearely see where this ends..
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.29 14:48:00 - [78] Originally by: d026 just tell me one thing. how do you web a super fast ship? if you web it the next second hes out of webrange anyway (inertia/serversync/lag) and arround 50k from you. ok you have a huginn, you webb him at 30-40k what does he do? he instawarps! so the only way to catch him is to have a hugin + a ship with 40k scram range and a lot of luck you have enough firepower to bring him down bevore he starts to do the log/relog game. and thats just for solo. facing a gang consisting of superfast targets you clearely see where this ends.. Make sure the ship that is webbing is also fast, DUHOH.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 14:49:00 - [79] Edited by: d026 on 29/10/2007 14:50:24 Originally by: Drasked Originally by: d026 just tell me one thing. how do you web a super fast ship? if you web it the next second hes out of webrange anyway (inertia/serversync/lag) and arround 50k from you. ok you have a huginn, you webb him at 30-40k what does he do? he instawarps! so the only way to catch him is to have a hugin + a ship with 40k scram range and a lot of luck you have enough firepower to bring him down bevore he starts to do the log/relog game. and thats just for solo. facing a gang consisting of superfast targets you clearely see where this ends.. Make sure the ship that is webbing is also fast, DUHOH. if the only counter against speed is speed ther is not point in flying non speed ships.. the fact remains that its higly luck based if your client is updated with accurate distance info. if you see him at 40k hes probably allreadxy at 250k..
stahmul	Posted - 2007.10.29 14:51:00 - [80] Originally by: d026 Originally by: hydraSlav Edited by: hydraSlav on 29/10/2007 14:08:19 The problem is not with nanos... the problem is with wrong webs! The description says they "entangle the ship, slowing it down". That is complete bull**, cause they don't slow down the ship, nor entangle it. They cut max speed, and ship continues to cruise by momentum, and with 10km radius of the webs, ships simply cruise out of that radius Fix the fracking webs! Make them do what the description has been saying for ages. Make them slow down the ship. The web needs a modifier on the enemy ship so that it instantly reduces the ship's mass to close to 0. With no mass, ship's inertia/momentum will be almost non-existent, and the ship will actually slow down** or give us 40k webbers... There are 40k webbers- Try Huginns, Rapiers, oh? and how about overloaded Hyena webbers? Barring all that any Battleship or bigger sized ship can fit a Tobias' Modified Stasis Webifier - 75% speed reduction, 40km range, but then you'll have to spend as much as the speed tankers do on their ships, and I'm sure all you whiners don't want to have to counter with an equally as expensive setup to save your solo battleships.
Boomershoot Caldari Insurgent New Eden Tribe Deus Ex.	Posted - 2007.10.29 14:53:00 - [81] rapier or HI sphere, you decide Originally by: 'CCP Nozh' We did not expect the requests to prematurely end dear Zulupark's existence in this universe, some of which were very imaginative
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 14:56:00 - [82] Edited by: d026 on 29/10/2007 14:56:34 Originally by: stahmul Originally by: d026 Originally by: hydraSlav Edited by: hydraSlav on 29/10/2007 14:08:19 The problem is not with nanos... the problem is with wrong webs! The description says they "entangle the ship, slowing it down". That is complete bull**, cause they don't slow down the ship, nor entangle it. They cut max speed, and ship continues to cruise by momentum, and with 10km radius of the webs, ships simply cruise out of that radius Fix the fracking webs! Make them do what the description has been saying for ages. Make them slow down the ship. The web needs a modifier on the enemy ship so that it instantly reduces the ship's mass to close to 0. With no mass, ship's inertia/momentum will be almost non-existent, and the ship will actually slow down** or give us 40k webbers... There are 40k webbers- Try Huginns, Rapiers, oh? and how about overloaded Hyena webbers? Barring all that any Battleship or bigger sized ship can fit a Tobias' Modified Stasis Webifier - 75% speed reduction, 40km range, but then you'll have to spend as much as the speed tankers do on their ships, and I'm sure all you whiners don't want to have to counter with an equally as expensive setup to save your solo battleships. all ships i have flown so far where heaviliy balanced. cerb beats deimos with fit a, deimos beats cerb with fit b etc.. every ship seems to be able to kill every other ship with the right setup. but this just does not apply to speedfits. the only counters are a 40k web combined with a 40k scram or another speed setup which makes everythign slow obsolete.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 15:00:00 - [83] Edited by: d026 on 29/10/2007 15:00:33 Some things i'd liek to see: No maneuverability/agility while MWD on. 40k webs 20k webs Module to increase targets mass Web sphere (launched from dictors, cant ovelay a dictor sphere)
stahmul	Posted - 2007.10.29 15:06:00 - [84] I'm sure you would like those things because then our tiny corp couldn't pick apart your giant alliance blobs that wade through Geminate. You want it to be easier to defend your space, not anything more. If you cared about real PVP you'd fly in real gangs that were setup and suited to a specific purpose. A handful of T1 BC/Cruisers and some Battleships does not a fleet make and a very specialized group should easily be able to take apart a hackjob fleet with half or less of the numbers. All the whiners about things like this are just crying foul because they're frustrated they actually need to think and strategize to play this game. What was that Oveur said, this isn't Hello Kitty online? It's not meant to be "fair"
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.29 15:15:00 - [85] Btw the counter against nano ships also inclused using your brain, so if you fly in fleets and your not the FC, stfu please your FC is epic fail, otherwise it should be easy to; a.) kill them b.) make them go away c.) go away yourself I do this on a daily basis with my gang so i dont see the problem.
stahmul	Posted - 2007.10.29 15:18:00 - [86] What do you mean rare? Rare like snake implants? Rare like Domi MWD's ? Just because you can't find any pilots smart enough to train towards Huginn doesn't mean it's "rare" Huginns and Rapiers are no more "rare" than any other t2 ship. In fact, they're pretty damn cheap compared to other ships like them. As I said, you fly a brain dead gang of a bunch of people with grab-bag setups and you are gonna die to a couple good guys who fly their ships well and have nice setups. EVE is about time invested and thought invested. That's why WoW kiddies don't do well here. I'm sorry but not flying with a properly setup gang is YOUR FAULT, and not the fault of the people raping you with speed fits.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 15:23:00 - [87] Edited by: d026 on 29/10/2007 15:23:21 Originally by: stahmul What do you mean rare? Rare like snake implants? Rare like Domi MWD's ? Just because you can't find any pilots smart enough to train towards Huginn doesn't mean it's "rare" Huginns and Rapiers are no more "rare" than any other t2 ship. In fact, they're pretty damn cheap compared to other ships like them. As I said, you fly a brain dead gang of a bunch of people with grab-bag setups and you are gonna die to a couple good guys who fly their ships well and have nice setups. EVE is about time invested and thought invested. That's why WoW kiddies don't do well here. I'm sorry but not flying with a properly setup gang is YOUR FAULT, and not the fault of the people raping you with speed fits. ok you throw in 1 deadspace mwd thus we need to bring a highly specialized gang?
stahmul	Posted - 2007.10.29 15:26:00 - [88] I don't call a single interceptor a "highly specialized" gang.
Inflexible Rytiri Lva	Posted - 2007.10.29 15:26:00 - [89] Originally by: Soulita Edited by: Soulita on 29/10/2007 15:13:39 Originally by: Arlenna Molatov This ship was doing 6600m/s. CCP, I would REALLY like to ask HOW in the damn hell are you supposed to fight a ship you cant hit?? Huginn or Rapier. These work well in combination with Arazu or Lachesis, and a stealth bomber of your choice. Thats the problem - you actually need minmatar recon (ONE race's SINGLE shipclass) to actually force some random ghey to fight. 10km web is utterly useless against them. Without minmatar recon in gang you are guaranteed to not win any small PvP encounter, especially if you are caldari.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 15:28:00 - [90] Originally by: Inflexible Originally by: Soulita Edited by: Soulita on 29/10/2007 15:13:39 Originally by: Arlenna Molatov This ship was doing 6600m/s. CCP, I would REALLY like to ask HOW in the damn hell are you supposed to fight a ship you cant hit?? Huginn or Rapier. These work well in combination with Arazu or Lachesis, and a stealth bomber of your choice. Thats the problem - you actually need minmatar recon (ONE race's SINGLE shipclass) to actually force some random ghey to fight. 10km web is utterly useless against them. Without minmatar recon in gang you are guaranteed to not win any small PvP encounter, especially if you are caldari. agreed. to kill 5 nanos you need 10 recons + support or 5 nanos. which makes everythign except nanos obsolete..
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 15:29:00 - [91] Edited by: d026 on 29/10/2007 15:30:34 Originally by: stahmul I don't call a single interceptor a "highly specialized" gang. so you buy a vaga. to kill it we need a huginn + support. balanced? i buy a deimos. to kill it we need a cerb or eagle or deimos or vaga or ishtar. balanced? yes!
stahmul	Posted - 2007.10.29 15:31:00 - [92] You don't "need" a Huginn or Rapier, they just make it easy and less risky to hold down a nanoship. An inty, a dictor, will work just fine to web someone. Who flies dictor or inty without speed fit? Okay, now how hard is it to run after someone and hold them down? Sure, you risk your ship, but SO IS THE NANOPILOT. Two inties? That nanopilot is now dead. Furthermore, the buff to inties is coming soon that will allow them to sustain their scramblers and mwd forever. Stop being so ******* lazy and stupid and be aware that you need to take risks yourself to get the fight from that nanoship. You can't just sit on the gates and expect people to suicide to your gaggle of poorly trained pilots.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 15:35:00 - [93] Originally by: stahmul You don't "need" a Huginn or Rapier, they just make it easy and less risky to hold down a nanoship. An inty, a dictor, will work just fine to web someone. Who flies dictor or inty without speed fit? Okay, now how hard is it to run after someone and hold them down? Sure, you risk your ship, but SO IS THE NANOPILOT. Two inties? That nanopilot is now dead. Furthermore, the buff to inties is coming soon that will allow them to sustain their scramblers and mwd forever. Stop being so ******* lazy and stupid and be aware that you need to take risks yourself to get the fight from that nanoship. You can't just sit on the gates and expect people to suicide to your gaggle of poorly trained pilots. ok i agree with you that you also need 2 people to hold ME down. so if you go to fast you wont be able to tackle anything and need to bring a friend to do this for you risking his ship to keep me pinned down.
Refazed The Silent Rage	Posted - 2007.10.29 15:37:00 - [94] Originally by: Inflexible Thats the problem - you actually need minmatar recon (ONE race's SINGLE shipclass) to actually force some random ghey to fight. 10km web is utterly useless against them. Without minmatar recon in gang you are guaranteed to not win any small PvP encounter, especially if you are caldari. Just like the fact that the attacker had no choice but to bring nano ships to have a chance to survive the bubbles and 10:1 odds they normally encounter when raiding 0.0 alliances. It works both ways. Nano ships are annoying at times but they are only annoying because they are difficult to kill. Difficult != bad but rather a challenge which makes the game fun. This game is already getting nerfed into whiner's online where setting goals and working toward them gets you jack **** in the end and blobs rule the day.
stahmul	Posted - 2007.10.29 15:39:00 - [95] Originally by: Refazed Originally by: Inflexible Thats the problem - you actually need minmatar recon (ONE race's SINGLE shipclass) to actually force some random ghey to fight. 10km web is utterly useless against them. Without minmatar recon in gang you are guaranteed to not win any small PvP encounter, especially if you are caldari. Just like the fact that the attacker had no choice but to bring nano ships to have a chance to survive the bubbles and 10:1 odds they normally encounter when raiding 0.0 alliances. It works both ways. Nano ships are annoying at times but they are only annoying because they are difficult to kill. Difficult != bad but rather a challenge which makes the game fun. This game is already getting nerfed into whiner's online where setting goals and working toward them gets you jack **** in the end and blobs rule the day. iawtc
Reacz Caldari Empirius Enigmus Navy Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.10.29 15:43:00 - [96] I view speed setups much like the old days of pirates and the Royal Navy on the open sea. In such that the pirates would often use fast agile ships to raid ports and towns and escape before the Royal Navy could respond in force. The Royal Navy's answer to such a predicament? Small, fast ships which were packed lots of guns. They were referred to as Sloops of War. We have something similar it is known as the interceptor; 3 or 4 of them will ruin any Vaga pilots day. And if that wasn't enough we are also getting EAS which will no doubt be able to pull off some fast speed tanks as well. All in all things don't look to bright for speed pilots. I think the real issue here is that killing a speed fit solo in lets say, a Battlecruiser is exceptionally hard because they can come in shoot you and escape before you've even fired a shot. A well organised inty gang however will eat Vagas for breakfast, or rather their support will. Solo you can ruin a Vaga pilots day with energy neuts or tracking disruptors incase you didn't know. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Valorem ([email protected])
Zenobite The Black Fleet	Posted - 2007.10.29 15:51:00 - [97] Originally by: Arlenna Molatov I would just like to point out that the other day I was shooting a vagabond with precision cruise missles, 2x T2 painters and all missle skills @ lv 4. My missles were STILL hitting for 0.0 damage!! This ship was doing 6600m/s. CCP, I would REALLY like to ask HOW in the damn hell are you supposed to fight a ship you cant hit?? It's faster than most interceptors and those should be the FASTEST ships in the game!! In a combat perspective, this has bogged the game down to virtually nothing. These ships can single handedly come in and kill ANYTHIGN while the other ship can do NOTHING because its not nearly as fast to catch the vagabond nor will ANY weapons system hit it for any dmg. You want to talk about a balance issue? Becauseif NANO ships are the end-all be-all to combat then I think EVE has outlived its playability. I could give a you know what to anyone else who is just going to spam useless crap and such. The facts speak for themselves. A Vagabond can kill ANY ship and hit them without that other ship being able to defend itsself. So CCP, i would really like to know the Devs thoughts on this issue or if they even think its an issue. Instead of whineing about ships being too fast, how about thinking of ways to take them out? Use a tracking disruptor on vaga and see how much damage they do then. We've used duel webing rifters to slow down a vaga long enough to get cruisers in range and take it out. Point is the the vaga pliot has sacrificed eveything for speed, so you have to use specialized tactics to defeat specialized ships, why should just pressing f1-f6 mean you win? The only nano ship I had a problem with was the nanophoon, as its mass made webs ineffective and heavy nos would murder ceptors, the nano nerf took them out and sensibly left the rest of the fast ships alone. Just beacause you can't think of way to deal with fast ships doesn't mean they should be nerfed.
Saint Luka The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.29 15:57:00 - [98] Its a variation of combat, we need more of those not less. What happens if nano's dont exist? Tanked ships going out and getting blobbed, all the time. Dont like missiles vs nanos? DONT FLY CALDARI. (Or the ****e amarr/gallente missile boats.) -
Inflexible Rytiri Lva	Posted - 2007.10.29 16:00:00 - [99] Originally by: Refazed Just like the fact that the attacker had no choice but to bring nano ships to have a chance to survive the bubbles and 10:1 odds they normally encounter when raiding 0.0 alliances. It works both ways. You SHOULD die in bubblecamp with 1:10 odds. You only reinforce my point.
stahmul	Posted - 2007.10.29 16:03:00 - [100] Originally by: Inflexible Originally by: Refazed Just like the fact that the attacker had no choice but to bring nano ships to have a chance to survive the bubbles and 10:1 odds they normally encounter when raiding 0.0 alliances. It works both ways. You SHOULD die in bubblecamp with 1:10 odds. You only reinforce my point. No, you shouldn't. see, that's where you alliance blobber whiners lose. We found a way to beat your bubble camps. You shouldn't be able to lock down a system with a single large bubble and a couple sniper battleships. I'm sure that's what all the alliances would love, but you cannot do that anymore, and that is why EVE is better now. What's the counter to some homos camping a gate with a large bubble and 20 ships? 40 ships? a carrier? CCP is trying to discourage blobbing, not make it more prevalent. For the sake of the game and the sake of the servers. Why don't you build a bridge and get the **** over it?
Inflexible Rytiri Lva	Posted - 2007.10.29 16:09:00 - [101] Edited by: Inflexible on 29/10/2007 16:15:24 Originally by: stahmul Originally by: Inflexible Originally by: Refazed Just like the fact that the attacker had no choice but to bring nano ships to have a chance to survive the bubbles and 10:1 odds they normally encounter when raiding 0.0 alliances. It works both ways. You SHOULD die in bubblecamp with 1:10 odds. You only reinforce my point. No, you shouldn't. see, that's where you alliance blobber whiners lose. We found a way to beat your bubble camps. You shouldn't be able to lock down a system with a single large bubble and a couple sniper battleships. I'm sure that's what all the alliances would love, but you cannot do that anymore, and that is why EVE is better now. What's the counter to some homos camping a gate with a large bubble and 20 ships? 40 ships? a carrier? CCP is trying to discourage blobbing, not make it more prevalent. For the sake of the game and the sake of the servers. Why don't you build a bridge and get the **** over it? Not true. It encourages blobbing if you need 5+ ships to catch single cruiser. edit: I understand that you have fun flying unmolested anywhere you please to and gank random n00bs, but if there is much more ppl trying to intercept you, they also deserve to have some fun. They are putting MUCH more effort than you to it. At least because it YOU who choose time and place, they just have to wait.
Akkarin Pagan Minmatar Raddick Explorations Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.10.29 16:23:00 - [102] Originally by: OneSock Vaga needs a speed nerf to bring it in line with top speeds of the other racial HACs. Just the same as the Eos needs DPS nerf to bring it in line with the other Fleet commands. CCP Yup. Let's nerf the Vaga so it goes the same speed as the other hacs, then see who flys them. You'll end up with a paper ship that doesn't go very fast. Minmatar don't get a true tanking HAC. Our version is the Vagabond. It speed tanks instead. While I wouldn't be averse to Vagas top end after deadspace + snakes being reduced a bit, the Vaga is mostly fine. Most people forget about the crappy dps you do with your Barrage M ammo, and it's 0.25% tracking mod while you're orbiting at 15k while doing 4k/s. The only issue with the Vaga is that it is hard to kill. Making them go away isn't hard if you work as a team. Akkarin Hopefully the mods won't play with this one <3 - Immy
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.29 16:28:00 - [103] Guys, you bring your normal gang + 1 huginn wich is nanod or tanked and now the opposing team can't do jack.. I just dont see the problem when the counter is so simple, 1 huginn.
Refazed The Silent Rage	Posted - 2007.10.29 16:28:00 - [104] Originally by: Inflexible You SHOULD die in bubblecamp with 1:10 odds. You only reinforce my point. Answer one question. Why should you die to a bubblecamp with 10:1 odds if they are poorly set up? Is there no place for skirmish warfare in this game? are numbers the only 'fair' way to win? The vaga is a master of hit and run warfare. Be kinda hard to be a master of it if it wasn't any faster then a thorax. You have a save carriers and mom banner in your sig. I am a carrier pilot and agree, I also agree with the nano ship pilots. They are saying the same thing as the carrier pilots which is "our ships are powerful under certain circumstances but it required a lot of training time and isk and we risk losing it all every time we undock". Sounds familiar doesn't it? Stop with the nerfs. If something is too hard to kill buff the counter but dont make the ship a flying coffin.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.29 16:30:00 - [105] This is bull****. CCP will never make the vagabond go slow. Knwowhy? Because it SHOUDL GO FAST. And it need to slow down to deal damage. its a ship that NEED some skill to use. One of the few!!!! The nano menace ended with the nano nerf. CCP never had anythign agaisnt small ships beign fast, but didnt want speed to be based on the number of low slots you have. Nanodomnis , those yes had no place on eve as well as nano mirmidons or for god sake, I even saw a nano DRAKE oncebefore the nerf. Those are WAY more powerful than a vagabond, because they don need to slow down to make damage. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Zenobite The Black Fleet	Posted - 2007.10.29 16:32:00 - [106] Originally by: Inflexible Edited by: Inflexible on 29/10/2007 16:15:24 Originally by: stahmul Originally by: Inflexible Originally by: Refazed Just like the fact that the attacker had no choice but to bring nano ships to have a chance to survive the bubbles and 10:1 odds they normally encounter when raiding 0.0 alliances. It works both ways. You SHOULD die in bubblecamp with 1:10 odds. You only reinforce my point. No, you shouldn't. see, that's where you alliance blobber whiners lose. We found a way to beat your bubble camps. You shouldn't be able to lock down a system with a single large bubble and a couple sniper battleships. I'm sure that's what all the alliances would love, but you cannot do that anymore, and that is why EVE is better now. What's the counter to some homos camping a gate with a large bubble and 20 ships? 40 ships? a carrier? CCP is trying to discourage blobbing, not make it more prevalent. For the sake of the game and the sake of the servers. Why don't you build a bridge and get the **** over it? Not true. It encourages blobbing if you need 5+ ships to catch single cruiser. edit: I understand that you have fun flying unmolested anywhere you please to and gank random n00bs, but if there is much more ppl trying to intercept you, they also deserve to have some fun. They are putting MUCH more effort than you to it. At least because it YOU who choose time and place, they just have to wait. So because people have found away to avoid you camping blob, you have to blob harder, so more people use nanos, is just me or can I see pattern here....
Enjackah Prophets Of a Damned Universe	Posted - 2007.10.29 16:34:00 - [107] 2007.10.29 02:52 Victim: dawood koplanski Alliance: Triumvirate. Corp: Exanimo Inc Destroyed: Vagabond System: 93PI-4 Security: 0.0 2007.10.25 03:57 Victim: Bobroglaz Alliance: DeStInY. Corp: Deviance Inc Destroyed: Vagabond System: 93PI-4 Security: 0.0 2007.10.19 01:09 Victim: XurM Alliance: Triumvirate. Corp: Wreckless Abandon Destroyed: Vagabond System: J-CIJV Security: 0.0 No problems killing Vaga's on our end. -- The universe sleeps and slumbers, led abound by the sounds of peace and safety... when around the corner comes destruction.
Stuart Price Caldari Havoc Inc	Posted - 2007.10.29 16:35:00 - [108] When does something become overpowered? If the answer is: "When it's required to compete in any meaningful way", then nanofits are overpowered. Let's take the comparison of speed vs. tank as a defensive mechanic. Two heavily tanked ships meet and start to fight. They can't break each other. BUT they can keep the other tackled for backup to arrive and tip the balance. Two nanoships meet each other and start to fight. They can't hit each other. BUT they're so fast one of them can just leave to end the fight before backup arrives. Speed is therefore better than tank. Now let's compare speed vs. gank as an offensive mechanic in gangs. Twenty battleships load up on damage mods and sensor booster and start roaming. They meet a few solo players and maybe a small gatecamp of battleships and cruisers. They melt them very quickly with staggeringly overwhelming firepower. They meet a nanogang coming the other way in 20 ships, a combination of Vagabonds, 'dictors and Ishtars. The battleships gang cannot hit the nanogang at all whereas the nanoships can pick a target and focus fire on it until it pops, because while their individual dps is low, 20 ships worth of it will still pop a target pretty fast. If the fight looks to be going against the battleship gang they can't leave as they're easily tackled. If the nanogang starts getting into trouble (maybe the battleships took heavy neuts or warped in a matari recon) they can just leave being too fast to stop. Speed wins again. What are the counters to tanking? 1. Find and exploit a resistance hole. 2. Brute force - go all out on damage mods and deal more dps than the tank can sustain. 3. Neuts/nos - if active tanking, can't run a rep/booster without cap. 4. Being friends - to add more damage. What are the counters to gank? 1. E-War - once jammed or damped out, they're sitting ducks. 2. Neuts/nos - if using hybrids or lasers, bleed their cap out. 3. Tracking disruptors - if using turrets. 4. Defender missiles - if using missiles and once defenders are fixed :p 5. A better tank that can take the punishment. 6. Better gank than them so they die faster than you do. What are the counters to speed? 1. A faster ship than them - but only if it can outfight them. Sending interceptors after nanohacs for example is largely suicide. 2. Neuts/nos - will scare them off if they're clever, will drop the MWD and allow them to be killed if they're not so clever. 3. Webbers - assuming they come within range. If they get in range of a normal web then they are idiots and deserve to die. 4. Minny recons ship - Monster web range although most will warp out as soon as they see one anywhere in the same region. Also, it means being able to fly those ships in particular which not everyone can do. 5. E-War - Jam them out of the fight and force them to run. Doesn't kill them though. So there ARE counters to nanoships but most don't actually result in a kill, unlike when countering other ship types/setups. This, again, makes nanoships overpowered. Some final questions: 1. How often do you see a nanoship in 0.0? 2. How often do you see a non-nanoship in 0.0? 3. Now think about how many of each type you've killed. Are the percentages anywhere near even? 4. Now think about how many of each type have killed you. Are the perectages anywhere near even? Not that any of this really makes a difference since nanfits are getting nerfed anyway, despite the impending forum whine. "I got soul but I'm not a soldier"
Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection	Posted - 2007.10.29 16:38:00 - [109] Edited by: Gorefacer on 29/10/2007 16:43:15 After the last couple of fights I've been in, I've realized that my Drake ends up watching fights 150km off the gate. Basically all I'm good for is support for the gangs fast ships to come back to, to bring the enemies faster ships in my range. I don't feel that there is any IN-BALANCE with nano ships. I have to change the ships I fly to be more useful in gangs, now that more and more gangs are nanogangs. I would much rather have the game mechanics change so that nano pilots would have to change their ships rather than the other way around, but that is just because our two ways of PVPing are at odds. Quite frankly I don't care if others playstyles are ruined for my benefit. Nano ships are an aspect of this game I don't enjoy currently, so my selfish opinion is that if they were speed reduced, I would be happy, much like nano pilots' selfish opinion is that they should stay, and I should change the ships I fly to accomodate them (as I am currently). People have different ways in which they enjoy playing the game. Many post crap claiming to KNOW whats BEST for the game. It's all opinions, so cast your vote and get off your high horse, we aren't debating whether or not the Earth is flat. Your opinion does not trump mine/others just because its yours, even if that's the way it feels in your head. Also: Changing ships for me isn't the end of the world, I am not unhappy with EVE as it is. Nano gangs cause minor irritation the way WCS fit ships used to, they will be nerfed or not and either way most will adapt. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Refazed The Silent Rage	Posted - 2007.10.29 16:46:00 - [110] Originally by: Gorefacer ... Quite frankly I don't care if others playstyles are ruined for my benefit. ... you could have said just this and saved a lot of typing.
Arial Stargazer The Evil Pirates	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:01:00 - [111] Wait i have an answer! web + Nano ships = dead
Inflexible Rytiri Lva	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:04:00 - [112] Originally by: Refazed Answer one question. Why should you die to a bubblecamp with 10:1 odds if they are poorly set up? Is there no place for skirmish warfare in this game? are numbers the only 'fair' way to win? It is very hard to be "properly set" if you want to kill nano. Nanos simply became new warpstabs. Originally by: Refazed You have a save carriers and mom banner in your sig. I am a carrier pilot and agree, I also agree with the nano ship pilots. They are saying the same thing as the carrier pilots which is "our ships are powerful under certain circumstances but it required a lot of training time and isk and we risk losing it all every time we undock". Sounds familiar doesn't it? Show me carrier which is capable of solo surviving medium sized gang. Carriers are in risk all the time they don't hug station or POS. In nano you have unfairly high chance of avoiding, bubbles, intys and on top you enjoy great degree of safespot immunity, because you can simly MWD in random direction and probes can't simply pinpoint you. I was against nerf which would leave one ship totally defenseless. Originally by: Refazed Stop with the nerfs. If something is too hard to kill buff the counter but dont make the ship a flying coffin. Actually, I'm not for nano nerf. I'm for webrange buff. Ordinary webs don't work well against nanoships and they are only counter you don't fly nano yourself. I believe I said everything I could in this thread, this is last post from me here... I hope someone from CCP will read it as well as other posts and will draw right conclusion (not necessarilly supporting my POV, simply right). PS: Sorry for terrible english, I did what I could.
hydraSlav Synergy Evolved Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:12:00 - [113] Originally by: Boomershoot or HI sphere, you decide What has HIs got to do with webbing? == Above comments are my personal views Oveur >Local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:22:00 - [114] Originally by: Drasked Guys, you bring your normal gang + 1 huginn wich is nanod or tanked and now the opposing team can't do jack.. I just dont see the problem when the counter is so simple, 1 huginn. to kill a deimos with fit a i use fit b on my muninn. to kill a sacrilege with fit c i use fit d on my deimos. to kill a vagabond in a sacrilege i need a huginn/rapier. dont this strike you odd?
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:28:00 - [115] Originally by: d026 Originally by: Drasked Guys, you bring your normal gang + 1 huginn wich is nanod or tanked and now the opposing team can't do jack.. I just dont see the problem when the counter is so simple, 1 huginn. to kill a deimos with fit a i use fit b on my muninn. to kill a sacrilege with fit c i use fit d on my deimos. to kill a vagabond in a sacrilege i need a huginn/rapier. dont this strike you odd? I find it hard to believe that you could kill any of those ships if they are fit for speed with anything other then something that counters speed.
gigglle	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:29:00 - [116] Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Carriers then Nanos and then Cap Boosters. What's next? mwds ...
Rexthor Hammerfists Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:31:00 - [117] what i hate about nanogangs is that its so easy to avoid combat with em, they can choose their targets and easily flee when they deem its needed. nanos prevent fights everyday, say no to nanos ;) -
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:32:00 - [118] there lies the problem. there arent any viable counters to speed execpt: 1. speed which only a minority of ships can use to they're advantage 2. long range webs which only are available from a minmatar recon 3. long range scrams which again are only available from gallente recons so to effectively disable 1 speed fit i need a combination of long range webbers and long range scrams which i cant fit on my ordinary ship. but to kill any other ship i have the required modules available and i can fit them on any ship!
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:40:00 - [119] Originally by: d026 there lies the problem. there arent any viable counters to speed execpt: 1. speed which only a minority of ships can use to they're advantage 2. long range webs which only are available from a minmatar recon 3. long range scrams which again are only available from gallente recons so to effectively disable 1 speed fit i need a combination of long range webbers and long range scrams which i cant fit on my ordinary ship. but to kill any other ship i have the required modules available and i can fit them on any ship! I agree with the fact that the counters to speed might be a bit limited, but this does not take away from how crazy effective it is, you guys make it sound like if you have a huginn and arazu in your gang and the moon is at a specific degree from the sun and earth that you have a 3.2% chance to have a 12.9% chance to catch a nanod ship, this is not the case.
Pheonix Kanan Caldari Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:42:00 - [120] Edited by: Pheonix Kanan on 29/10/2007 17:44:28 Originally by: Gorefacer ... Quite frankly I don't care if others playstyles are ruined for my benefit. ... It's this attitude that will be the end of this game and all others like it. It is this single statement that makes Eve, in all it's inventiveness and creativity, completely and utterly fail. If we can't play nice, why play at all? Edit: By the way, did everyone here forget the mention that the new tech 2 minmatar frigate can web to about 20km? Sounds like a good thing to take on nano gangs. Originally by: Curzon Dax shrugs Play the game the way you want to, and respect other peoples' ability to do the same.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:42:00 - [121] eve is paper > rock > scissors. but nanofits don't follow this scheme. they are a lil of scissor and rock at the same time thus making it impossible to counter with only one ship. right now speed is a huge advantage and this should be keept that way.. but there must be the possibility to fly into the wrong guy at the wrong time and get wtfbbqd even tough you use a 5bil clone and flying a 5 bil ship. if you are not comfortable with the idea that a random properly fitted hac can shred you to pieces 1 vs 1 (as it can happen to all other hacs out there) you really need to think again if you are ready for serious PVP.
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:51:00 - [122] Originally by: d026 eve is paper > rock > scissors. but nanofits don't follow this scheme. they are a lil of scissor and rock at the same time thus making it impossible to counter with only one ship. This went out of the window some time ago now. If you think this is not the case then explain me what part of eve is rock paper scissors. Rock paper scissors is also a 1on1 game, keep that in mind when you compare it to eve.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 18:07:00 - [123] Edited by: d026 on 29/10/2007 18:09:28 Edited by: d026 on 29/10/2007 18:08:29 Originally by: Drasked Originally by: d026 eve is paper > rock > scissors. but nanofits don't follow this scheme. they are a lil of scissor and rock at the same time thus making it impossible to counter with only one ship. This went out of the window some time ago now. If you think this is not the case then explain me what part of eve is rock paper scissors. Rock paper scissors is also a 1on1 game, keep that in mind when you compare it to eve. rock paper scissors is the came with the counter to the counter to the counter where you never can be sure what the outcome will be because you cant see the hand behind my back. but the only choice i have to kill a vaga is to hope he gets into my web range! so there will never be any uncertainty to a vaga pilot because he knows if i orbit outsied 10k im safe(ok maybe a lil more due to faction webs). he never will get into the situation where the other guy just luckily has the counter to speed and webs him up to 40k.. for all other ships applies: if i bring fit a you better bring fit c or d because with fit x you die, but if d you better fit n. for vaga applies: bring a huggin or catch im afk on a ss or you wont kill him. and i agree with a previous poster. ther are counters to nanofits but tehy don't result in the destruction of it.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.10.29 18:11:00 - [124] Nano ships have to go, I agree... go faster that is! Originally by: Liz Kali Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking I owned someone on forums!!!
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2007.10.29 18:18:00 - [125] Speedfits are the counter to blobbing. Removing them will only encourage blobbing more. Is that what you want?
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 18:24:00 - [126] Originally by: Kruel Speedfits are the counter to blobbing. Removing them will only encourage blobbing more. Is that what you want? speed fits are cause for blobbing because: to kill 1 you need 3
DeadProphet Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.29 19:21:00 - [127] LOL
Dr Paithos Minmatar Republic Deep Space Institute	Posted - 2007.10.29 19:31:00 - [128] Originally by: DeadProphet LOL Yeah that looks like a balanced and practical pvp setup Originally by: RedFall How dare you try to argue my point with your so called "evidence". I don't need any, I have truthiness on my side.
Jade190	Posted - 2007.10.29 19:40:00 - [129] Originally by: d026 speed fits are cause for blobbing because: to kill 1 you need 3 Eve is supposed to be multi-player anyway. So you should have a buddy with you to help you take down that vagabond, rather getting killed solo and whining about it
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.29 19:52:00 - [130] Edited by: Plutoinum on 29/10/2007 19:53:34 Originally by: Jade190 Originally by: d026 speed fits are cause for blobbing because: to kill 1 you need 3 Eve is supposed to be multi-player anyway. So you should have a buddy with you to help you take down that vagabond, rather getting killed solo and whining about it Agree. vagabond has been ultra-fast and a danger for the normal ceptor for as long as I can remember. It's the vagabond's role to go that fast. And it wasn't a big problem in the past. It's a hit and run ship, so it's not only a ganker, but also a ship that has a chance against blobs. Since you actually need some effort to catch a vagabond and usually can't just nail it down with a blob, imho it's an anti-blob ship. Nanoships allow solo pilots and small gangs to roam around in these times of blobbing. Good imho Imho people should stop the nerf whines and adapt and play.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2007.10.29 20:04:00 - [131] if you had a web and a painter i think you might have had him.... but 2 painters... thats not going to do anything
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 20:18:00 - [132] Edited by: d026 on 29/10/2007 20:20:00 Originally by: Jade190 Originally by: d026 speed fits are cause for blobbing because: to kill 1 you need 3 Eve is supposed to be multi-player anyway. So you should have a buddy with you to help you take down that vagabond, rather getting killed solo and whining about it Why don't you have a buddy with you to do the tackling? Eve is supposed to be a multi-player game. You cant have both but deny it the others. So either you are not able to keep anything in place or you give me the ability to web you at scram range (+20k).
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.10.29 20:18:00 - [133] Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists what i hate about nanogangs is that its so easy to avoid combat with em, they can choose their targets and easily flee when they deem its needed. nanos prevent fights everyday, say no to nanos ;) You'd think someone from MC would be able to to understand that The WHOLE point in a nano gang is so you can engage outnumbered and RUN away when it gets ridiculous. Otherwise blobs rule the game...and that is something CCP definitely doesn't want. Give the small alliances a chance, speed gangs allows this. It's nice to see MC complaining tbh....as they cant just drop a whole bunch of capitals on the problem
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 20:21:00 - [134] Originally by: Flinx Evenstar Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists what i hate about nanogangs is that its so easy to avoid combat with em, they can choose their targets and easily flee when they deem its needed. nanos prevent fights everyday, say no to nanos ;) You'd think someone from MC would be able to to understand that The WHOLE point in a nano gang is so you can engage outnumbered and RUN away when it gets ridiculous. Otherwise blobs rule the game...and that is something CCP definitely doesn't want. Give the small alliances a chance, speed gangs allows this. It's nice to see MC complaining tbh....as they cant just drop a whole bunch of capitals on the problem but to effectively fight a nono gang you need a blob because with only minmatar recons you lack the dps to kill anything..
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.10.29 20:30:00 - [135] Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 29/10/2007 20:36:49 Originally by: d026 but to effectively fight a nono gang you need a blob because with only minmatar recons you lack the dps to kill anything.. No you dont...you need the right ships Blobbing up with a whole bunch of rubbish is a sure way to die. Once again..nano gang is excellent way to fight a Blob. It's the same people that think numbers are the win button, that are dying to nano gangs. Vagas get jammed when you look at them, Heavy Neuts scare the bejesus out of ishtars, tracking disruptors take all vaga dps away, and thats before we get onto the webs. Try use the tools to counter before you cry for a nerf Here is what happens when the enemy know what they doing If speed hacs were so good, no one would lose them, but I think you'll find the larket is pretty active
MITSUK0	Posted - 2007.10.29 20:37:00 - [136] Overdrives are the new warp core stabs. Vagabonds will allways be like that and have allways been like that, good at open space combat, killing noobs and running the **** away from anyone with half a clue.
Phocas Lebournes Minmatar Seven. Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.10.29 20:40:00 - [137] OP, not every ship can by default win against any other ship on its own. Rapier or Huginn is your best friend against a vagabond.
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.10.29 20:41:00 - [138] And one last link to show you how nasty one skilled rapier pilot can be.
Soulita Gallente Inner Core	Posted - 2007.10.29 20:42:00 - [139] Edited by: Soulita on 29/10/2007 20:46:17 Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists what i hate about nanogangs is that its so easy to avoid combat with em, they can choose their targets and easily flee when they deem its needed. nanos prevent fights everyday, say no to nanos ;) Minmatar ships: "Terrorist" ships with the ability to hit and run. That is what the vaga does. Requires skilled pilots and enables small gangs or solo pilots to be effective to a degree. Any questions? But you probably prefer to blob a system with 50 unnerfed carriers that kill everything coming to them with their fighters while the attackers can not do anything due to lag. That is how EVE should be in your opinion, no?
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 20:45:00 - [140] Originally by: Phocas Lebournes OP, not every ship can by default win against any other ship on its own. Rapier or Huginn is your best friend against a vagabond. every ship can beat the opposites setup somehow. except none can win against a vaga without webbing/scrambling support except another faster vaga..
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 20:48:00 - [141] Edited by: d026 on 29/10/2007 20:49:34 Originally by: Flinx Evenstar Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 29/10/2007 20:37:55 Originally by: d026 but to effectively fight a nono gang you need a blob because with only minmatar recons you lack the dps to kill anything.. No you dont...you need the right ships Blobbing up with a whole bunch of rubbish is a sure way to die. Once again..nano gang is excellent way to fight a Blob. It's the same people that think numbers are the win button, that are dying to nano gangs. Vagas get jammed when you look at them, Heavy Neuts scare the bejesus out of ishtars, tracking disruptors take all vaga dps away, and thats before we get onto the webs. Try use the tools to counter before you cry for a nerf Here is what happens when the enemy know what they doing If speed hacs were so good, no one would lose them, but I think you'll find the market is pretty active 1st fight. who is the nanogang? 2nd fight. see they had to out blob you 19 to 5 to win this one.. and please please refrain from posting additional kb stats they prove nothing anyway..
Semkhet KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.10.29 20:49:00 - [142] Edited by: Semkhet on 29/10/2007 20:53:13 Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 29/10/2007 12:12:25 Originally by: u die You were bandwagoning in a whine thread with the OP, that sums all IMHO, you whine. You may call it telling your opinion, its the same, you were supporting a bad thing (whine beacuse of one of those 3 things i mentioned in my previous post), worse you didnt even had real considered opinion, just had time to talk crap. Apologies for the great internet police for making a statement that i CLEARLY said was "TO ME". As in, an opinion, not a fact/cause for concern. I, in my mind, on my own, as i feel, don't feel that cruisers should go past the 3km/s mark. You have your opinion on it, but the difference is, i don't call your opinion about it crap, call you a whienr, or anything else for that matter. I let you have your opinion and even said, on this very thread, that it's an understandable, if different, opinion and it's reasonable. But no, you must be with us or against us, 'cause that's how the "adult" MMO people work right? Don't start with the "forum warrior" attitude with me, i'm quite certain you'll end up at the wrong end of the stick. I'll tell what is wrong with you: your head works backwards. Who are you to define that X Km/sec is too fast or too slow by any objective standard in EVE's context ? Little clue of logics: Minimum speed is 0 (zero), maximum is what the devs allow by using the conjunction of all legit means available ingame. Hence mas speed = Crusader + polycarbs + Domination overdrives + Gistii-A MWD + HG set of snake implants + all remaining implant slots filled with speed-related hardwires + all related skills to lvl5. Then we may push this further by creating a gang based on a Claymore using skirmish warfare mods and other goodies. Now we reached the 100%. The speed of your ship depends mainly of 4 factors. Are the ship's base stats favorable to speed optimization (difference between a prophecy and a vagabond for example) ? Did you max out all relevant skills (difference between an incompetent & lazy whiner and those who actually train) ? Did you invest billions in the mods and implants (difference between the jealous poor sod and the PvP'er with enough balls to risk his first year of noob's income in a single fight with no regard to the effective value of the opponent's potential loot) ? Do you improve your performance by using gang bonuses derived by a field or fleet command ship (difference between the casual lone player and the one using multiple accounts at once or playing collaborative) ? By the way, what's the base of your argumentation to define what's fast or not if you don't even reach 25% of what can be attained ? You do the same in the street ? Since not everybody is dumb enough to remain stuck with a Polski Fiat, you would like to see all the Ferrari banned ? Give me a break, there's no such thing as balance not even in RL, why should we have it here ? If we are inherently unbalanced already with our highly variable IQ, variable income, variable health, variable luck, and variable charm (or lack thereof)
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 20:52:00 - [143] Edited by: d026 on 29/10/2007 20:52:31 Originally by: Semkhet I'll tell what is wrong with you: your head works backwards. Who are you to define that X Km/sec is too fast or too slow by any objective standard in EVE's context ? if the server cant handle such speeds anymore resulting in un-updated clients showing you 5m from me while you are allready 50k out and that point has been reached for quite some time now.
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.10.29 20:53:00 - [144] Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 29/10/2007 20:54:35 Originally by: d026 1st fight. who is the nanogang? 2nd fight. see they had to out blob you 19 to 5 to win this one.. and please please refrain from posting additional kb stats they prove nothing anyway.. 1. Us obviously 2. No they didn't blob us...we engaged them. That is what nano gangs are good for...remember. This blob knew what it was doing and had a good FC. And yes of course KB stats prove nothing We should just take your word for it. How about you back up some of your remarks with statistics. So far.."nanos are bad, cause I can't kill every ship in my BS" is the best you got
Semkhet KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.10.29 20:54:00 - [145] Edited by: Semkhet on 29/10/2007 20:56:40 Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 29/10/2007 20:52:31 Originally by: Semkhet I'll tell what is wrong with you: your head works backwards. Who are you to define that X Km/sec is too fast or too slow by any objective standard in EVE's context ? if the server cant handle such speeds anymore resulting in un-updated clients showing you 5m from me while you are allready 50k out and that point has been reached for quite some time now. Funny, never happened to me nor the people I fly with at least the last 6 months. And I do only up to 22 Km/sec in my Crow. But I must admit, I'm not doing this in Jita
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 20:55:00 - [146] Edited by: d026 on 29/10/2007 20:56:06 Edited by: d026 on 29/10/2007 20:55:49 Originally by: Flinx Evenstar Originally by: d026 1st fight. who is the nanogang? 2nd fight. see they had to out blob you 19 to 5 to win this one.. and please please refrain from posting additional kb stats they prove nothing anyway.. 1. Us obviously 2. No they didn't blob us...we engaged them. That is what nano gangs are good for...remember. This blob knew what it was doing and had a goof FC. And yes of course KB stats prove nothing We should just take your work for it. How about you back up some of your remarks with statistics. So far.."nanos are bad, cause I can't kill every ship in my BS" is the best you got nanos are bad because there is NO counter available to my ship or any other ship out there (except for the huginn in combination with a tackler) resulting in a nanos destruction.
Remejiah	Posted - 2007.10.29 20:59:00 - [147] Originally by: Zephyr Zhang 1. The vaga was always intended to be fast, a heavy interceptor if you will. 2. 1 heavy Neut will cause all them missiles to start hurting. 3. u suck stop whining gtfo 4. /b/lackup! That's when the vaga runs. Speed tanking is the new WCS.
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.10.29 21:00:00 - [148] Originally by: d026 nanos are bad because there is NO counter available to my ship or any other ship out there (except for the huginn in combination with a tackler) resulting in a nanos destruction. Or NOS..or neuts...or tracking disruptors, or jamming, or a fast ship You are right....no counter
MITSUK0	Posted - 2007.10.29 21:02:00 - [149] ECM drones, heavy neuts, overheated webs, piloting skill, interceptors, remote tanking/logistics, co-ordinated flying, weapons capable of dealing damage out to ~26km, killing drones first. Those are just a few counters, some work solo, some work for gangs, all of them work when you do it right. Also if a nano ship attacks you at a gate you allways have the option to de-agress and leave. If a vaga is shooting you then transversal is low and you can shoot back. If an ishtar/curse is orbiting you, kill his drones. The fight will not allways result in a killmail but saying there are no counters to speed setups is stupid. You suck.
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.10.29 21:04:00 - [150] Originally by: MITSUK0 The fight will not allways result in a killmail but saying there are no counters to speed setups is stupid. You suck. QFT ^^ Anywayz...my vaga cannot break the tank of a decent skilled drake pilot. DO you see me crying for a passive tank nerf? It's a good setup that smart Drake pilots use. The game is rock paper scissor and stone...you know that. There is always a ship that can kill you
Franga Caldari NQX Innovations Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.29 21:04:00 - [151] Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Carriers then Nanos and then Cap Boosters. What's next? Huh? What the hell is happening to cap-boosters? _____________________________ Eldo spanked my sig but I can't be bothered changing it just now.
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.10.29 21:05:00 - [152] Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 29/10/2007 21:05:30
Semkhet KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.10.29 21:21:00 - [153] Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 29/10/2007 20:56:06 Edited by: d026 on 29/10/2007 20:55:49 Originally by: Flinx Evenstar Originally by: d026 1st fight. who is the nanogang? 2nd fight. see they had to out blob you 19 to 5 to win this one.. and please please refrain from posting additional kb stats they prove nothing anyway.. 1. Us obviously 2. No they didn't blob us...we engaged them. That is what nano gangs are good for...remember. This blob knew what it was doing and had a goof FC. And yes of course KB stats prove nothing We should just take your work for it. How about you back up some of your remarks with statistics. So far.."nanos are bad, cause I can't kill every ship in my BS" is the best you got nanos are bad because there is NO counter available to my ship or any other ship out there (except for the huginn in combination with a tackler) resulting in a nanos destruction. A rokh would make short notice of any nanoship. Even for my crow, 250 Km is still a bit much to cover... But if you doubt we could certainly show you how it's done
slip66 Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.29 21:23:00 - [154] nerf the snakes not the ships or get rid of them. Thats whats giving the imbalance. Originally by: StOrM ViPeR Theres a skill called surgical strike in game I've learned that it actually stands for Band of Brothers
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 21:24:00 - [155] Originally by: Flinx Evenstar Originally by: d026 nanos are bad because there is NO counter available to my ship or any other ship out there (except for the huginn in combination with a tackler) resulting in a nanos destruction. Or NOS..or neuts...or tracking disruptors, or jamming, or a fast ship You are right....no counter this does not kill it. you still need to be withing 10k web rang (and have luck that his inertia does not push him out of web range). all couners you listed just make him move away but dont kill him..
mechtech Silver Snake Enterprise	Posted - 2007.10.29 21:25:00 - [156] I agree, speed tanking is a balanced and fun part of the game, but snakes might push it a little over the top. To be fair though, they are amazingly expensive.
El Mauru Amarr A Black Knight Corp FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.29 21:28:00 - [157] Meh- I think Vagas and 0mgfast inties are a typical case where a "slight" nerf is in order without screwing up the entire concept. Slight "nerf" as in a even steeper curve of diminishing returns after hitting 6k ms. - Recruiting! Convo ingame for details
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 21:33:00 - [158] Originally by: MITSUK0 ECM drones, heavy neuts, overheated webs, piloting skill, interceptors, remote tanking/logistics, co-ordinated flying, weapons capable of dealing damage out to ~26km, killing drones first. Those are just a few counters, some work solo, some work for gangs, all of them work when you do it right. Also if a nano ship attacks you at a gate you allways have the option to de-agress and leave. If a vaga is shooting you then transversal is low and you can shoot back. If an ishtar/curse is orbiting you, kill his drones. The fight will not allways result in a killmail but saying there are no counters to speed setups is stupid. You suck. ECM drones: do not kill him (warps off) heavy neuts: dont kill him (warps off) overheated webs: vaga does not need to overload his modules either.. piloting skill: only works if you are fast aswell (thus another vaga) interceptors: vaga does not have to relay on a interceptor either. remote tanking/logistics: does not kill the vaga (warps off) co-ordinated flying: imbalanced because you need at least 2 to kill 1. weapons capable of dealing damage out to ~26km: does not kill a vaga (he warps off).
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 21:37:00 - [159] Edited by: d026 on 29/10/2007 21:41:53 balance will only ever be achived if they introduce a module forcing a vaga to commit to a fight. as long as such module is not available (or only in form of the combination of 2 other ships) the ship and the idea of flying fast is broken. its not that you would die to every ship everyday.. (lets say a specialized module reaching out far enough to be able to catch up on you) but you wont have granted succes (on form of a killmail or escape) everytime you face a enemy/prey! no it wouldnt be the end of the nanofag. but you could LOSE your ship.. so eventough you use your cookycutter setup ther could be a mean guy fitting especially just to blow you to pieces.. thats pvp.
Phoenix Jones	Posted - 2007.10.29 21:43:00 - [160] That wouldn't be possible, because it detriments all ships, as well as yourself cause now you'll have to have the dang module on. ---------------The Low Sec Issue------------- Gatecamps that kill all who pass with no remorse and in many cases, no possible way of retaliation, is not PVP.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.29 21:44:00 - [161] Originally by: d026 Originally by: Drasked Guys, you bring your normal gang + 1 huginn wich is nanod or tanked and now the opposing team can't do jack.. I just dont see the problem when the counter is so simple, 1 huginn. to kill a deimos with fit a i use fit b on my muninn. to kill a sacrilege with fit c i use fit d on my deimos. to kill a vagabond in a sacrilege i need a huginn/rapier. dont this strike you odd? And to kill a rook you use....what? Your muninn and 4 buddies? OMG nerf ecm, clearly OP because I cant solo it with just any ship. signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link to the image URL) - Jacques([email protected])
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 21:44:00 - [162] Originally by: Phoenix Jones That wouldn't be possible, because it detriments all ships, as well as yourself cause now you'll have to have the dang module on. its not that you only fight nanos he whole day so usualy you wold probably fit a webber instead.. at least it would add some spice to the nano pilots life.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 21:46:00 - [163] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: d026 Originally by: Drasked Guys, you bring your normal gang + 1 huginn wich is nanod or tanked and now the opposing team can't do jack.. I just dont see the problem when the counter is so simple, 1 huginn. to kill a deimos with fit a i use fit b on my muninn. to kill a sacrilege with fit c i use fit d on my deimos. to kill a vagabond in a sacrilege i need a huginn/rapier. dont this strike you odd? And to kill a rook you use....what? Your muninn and 4 buddies? OMG nerf ecm, clearly OP because I cant solo it with just any ship. eccm and shred it to pieces.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.29 21:50:00 - [164] Originally by: d026 heavy neuts: dont kill him (warps off) Only to find out the battleship also happened to carry a domi scram that just overheated to 36km. Quote: overheated webs: vaga does not need to overload his modules either.. Overheating is a TOOL, thats like saying drakes dont need to fit a shield booster and can passive tank is imba because I do on my maelstrom. Really makes a lot of sense. Quote: piloting skill: only works if you are fast aswell (thus another vaga) Try formation flying instead of lock primary f1-f8. Quote: interceptors: vaga does not have to relay on a interceptor either. And the vaga needs gangmates to break anything remotely tanked. I guess battleships are imba cause they dont need another gangmate to do omgwtfdps. Quote: remote tanking/logistics: does not kill the vaga (warps off) You put the remote rep on the huginn. Quote: co-ordinated flying: imbalanced because you need at least 2 to kill 1. I guess then every force recon is imba(you need 2 to kill 1), and ecm is imba, I'd like to see you solo a scorpion or a rook/falcon, or an arazu, lachesis.... get my point? You forgot one, overheated faction webs, webs out to 20km, pretty ******* useful, you only need to be moderately fast. Vaga orbitting you at 17km? Mwd towards him and hit the web, he will NOT be able to get away. signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link to the image URL) - Jacques([email protected])
TheAdj Endless Destruction Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2007.10.29 21:53:00 - [165] I'm not reading the entire thread to see if this was pointed out, but most of the "good" ceptors can outrun a vaga setup like this. I can fit a claw to outdo that for 1/3 the price of a vaga hull alone. In fact that's not even "that" fast for a vaga, I've seen several going faster than that. Just accept that certain minmatar ships are going to go insanely fast and counter it appropriately. See what happens if a huginn pops up nearby, that vaga will run the opposite direction as fast as possible because he knows he would be toast against it. Of course a vaga can outrun your lol ratting raven, that's the point of the ship. Also of note, the claw and the sabre can both track and hit with autocannons at maximum speed, some people seem to think otherwise. Not sure about the vaga because I don't fly one (yet), but those two can definitely hit while orbitting with a MWD on. ---------------- Alliance Killboard
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.29 21:55:00 - [166] Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 29/10/2007 21:47:11 Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: d026 Originally by: Drasked Guys, you bring your normal gang + 1 huginn wich is nanod or tanked and now the opposing team can't do jack.. I just dont see the problem when the counter is so simple, 1 huginn. to kill a deimos with fit a i use fit b on my muninn. to kill a sacrilege with fit c i use fit d on my deimos. to kill a vagabond in a sacrilege i need a huginn/rapier. dont this strike you odd? And to kill a rook you use....what? Your muninn and 4 buddies? OMG nerf ecm, clearly OP because I cant solo it with just any ship. eccm and shred it to pieces. and in fact eccm works at every range quit like webs no? WRONG. Lets say you fit 2 ECCM(the most paranoid setup ever that gimps u against everything else), you can kick a muninn's sensor str to 50. On a rook you have around 13.5 jam str/racial, with just 3 racials the rook has a a 62% chance to jam you, more if he wants to toss more racials on or had some multispecs. signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link to the image URL) - Jacques([email protected])
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 21:57:00 - [167] Quote: Only to find out the battleship also happened to carry a domi scram that just overheated to 36km. nonesns to balance the game arround faction items. faction should give you an edge and should never be mandatory. Quote: Overheating is a TOOL, thats like saying drakes dont need to fit a shield booster and can passive tank is imba because I do on my maelstrom. Really makes a lot of sense. same as fatcion gives you an edge but should not be mandatory. Quote: Try formation flying instead of lock primary f1-f8. to kill my eagle the vaga also should be forced to bring a full wing of hugins and arazus Quote: And the vaga needs gangmates to break anything remotely tanked. I guess battleships are imba cause they dont need another gangmate to do omgwtfdps. fit gyrostabs if you are not happy with your dps. Quote: You put the remote rep on the huginn. Does the vaga need a Huginn to kill anything? Quote: I guess then every force recon is imba(you need 2 to kill 1), and ecm is imba, I'd like to see you solo a scorpion or a rook/falcon, or an arazu, lachesis.... get my point? you dont need 2 to kill a force recon.
Chr0nosX Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 22:01:00 - [168] Edited by: Chr0nosX on 29/10/2007 22:03:00 I <3 my nano ishtar though. It's called a Huginn or Rapier - one or two mixed in with other ships will kill a nano gang, dead. Another counter is being introduced soon - the mini EW frigate and neuts also can kill easily a nano ships cap.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 22:06:00 - [169] Originally by: Gamesguy WRONG. Lets say you fit 2 ECCM(the most paranoid setup ever that gimps u against everything else), you can kick a muninn's sensor str to 50. On a rook you have around 13.5 jam str/racial, with just 3 racials the rook has a a 62% chance to jam you, more if he wants to toss more racials on or had some multispecs. thats not the point. if you really want, fit a whole rack of eccm and you can kill. but howsoever i fit my my rook i will never be able to beat the vaga if he does not make a ugly mistake. its not about if i can fit my ship and kill a vaga everytime. its just taht there must be a setup for every other hac that can handle a vaga and KILL it no matter how impractical this setup is in any other situation. and no there should be only TII involved, faction should not be mandatory.
LUH 3471	Posted - 2007.10.29 22:06:00 - [170] Edited by: LUH 3471 on 29/10/2007 22:06:35 nerf whiners boost evrything else
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.29 22:08:00 - [171] Originally by: d026 nonesns to balance the game arround faction items. faction should give you an edge and should never be mandatory. Ok, then in this debate from now you are forbidden from talking about 10km vagas, since those requires snakes/faction mods. Quote: same as fatcion gives you an edge but should not be mandatory. Says who? Anybody can overheat if they have the skill for it. Quote: to kill my eagle the vaga also should be forced to bring a full wing of hugins and arazus Rook, solo it with a hac, just try. And you can solo a vaga with many ships. Nano-huginn, or another hac with a faction web that surprised it. I've seen a macheriel solo a vaga that didnt realize it had a faction web. Overheated to 20km, got webbed and neuted instantly, dead vaga. Quote: fit gyrostabs if you are not happy with your dps. Please show me how I can get 1300dps on a vaga. Nerf blasterthrons plz. Quote: Does the vaga need a Huginn to kill anything? Huginn can solo a vaga. Quote: you dont need 2 to kill a force recon. Please show me how you would solo a rook. signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link to the image URL) - Jacques([email protected])
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.10.29 22:10:00 - [172] Originally by: d026 all couners you listed just make him move away but dont kill him.. Dude, a counter is to avoid dying.... As was stated, you will not die in decent BS to a solo Vaga...he cant hit you hard enough. Hence the nano gangs I can't kill a 3 month old guy in a T1 fitted drake if he trained right, despite the fact I trained for a year solid to fly vaga. It's not always about the killing...the drake lived...he countered me You seem to want to be able to KILL everything, but without looking at your history, I am sure you understand the game a bit better than that. Yes we fly nano gangs, but when it comes down to it..we still need BS to dish out the damage. Speed hacs are great but can only kill, badly tanked, badly skilled ships. So what if they run away....that is a counter, you made it go away, you defended your system or whatever
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.29 22:10:00 - [173] Originally by: d026 thats not the point. if you really want, fit a whole rack of eccm and you can kill it. You can? I wasnt aware you can kill anything with no warp disruptor. Quote: but howsoever i fit my my rook i will never be able to beat the vaga if he does not make a ugly mistake. its not about if i can fit my ship and kill a vaga everytime. its just taht there must be a setup for every other hac that can handle a vaga and KILL it no matter how impractical this setup is in any other situation. there should be only TII involved, faction should not be mandatory. You still havent proven how you can kill a rook yet, lets start with that first before you get ahead of yourself. signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link to the image URL) - Jacques([email protected])
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.10.29 22:15:00 - [174] Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 29/10/2007 22:15:49 I agree with the BOB guy...snakes do indeed need to be nerfed...they need a price nerf So...like around 2bil to fly a fully fitted snaked up vaga...and you wonder why it is good Thats around 8BS worth of ship, it doesn't do the dps of 8BS, it doesn't tank like 8BS It doesn't even go 8 times faster than a MWD mega....but the pilot is putting his isk where is mouth is. Your job is to kill him. And yes it can be done with around 300mil solo
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 22:19:00 - [175] Quote: Says who? Anybody can overheat if they have the skill for it. from now on if we have a balancing question we always include the 15 whatever % overheat. Quote: And you can solo a vaga with many ships. Nano-huginn, or another hac with a faction web that surprised it. faction again + overheat. Quote: Please show me how I can get 1300dps on a vaga. Nerf blasterthrons plz. yeah i usualy try to solo blastertrons in my cerb to.. Quote: Quote: Does the vaga need a Huginn to kill anything? Huginn can solo a vaga. But to kill a lets say Deimos does the Vaga need a Hugin? Quote: Please show me how you would solo a rook. i never tryed, im sure oyu can come up with a nasty setup. use ecm drones, damps and lots of eccm. But again. I dont understand why you oppose a module that could add some fun to your boring nanolife making fights les predictable.. Ahh yea i know why.. because suddenyl you could die!
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.10.29 22:24:00 - [176] Originally by: d026 But again. I dont understand why you oppose a module that could add some fun to your boring nanolife making fights les predictable.. Ahh yea i know why.. because suddenyl you could die! Boring nano life they allow us to fight against stupid odds You are the one that thinks that all ships should do the same speed and slug it out on a gate. Get an imagination, and you just might be able to kill a nano ship. You chose your char and skills. Sometimes I would love the ability to ALWAYS hit, but I dont begrudge those pilots that trained for missile specialization. Jesus, you want everyone to sit and activate tank while pressing F1-8 Nano ships require a lot of attention to fly. Drunk nano gangs get slaughtered Drunk tanking ships...well it dont matter, they can go afk to the fridge, and the tank still works
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.29 22:31:00 - [177] Originally by: d026 from now on if we have a balancing question we always include the 15 whatever % overheat. 30% actually, and you only need it for 1 or 2 cycles to get into normal web range, at which point you can turn it off. Quote: faction again + overheat. So? You can get a db web for the price of 2 poly rigs... Quote: yeah i usualy try to solo blastertrons in my cerb to.. I know, NERF cause you cant solo it! Quote: But to kill a lets say Deimos does the Vaga need a Hugin? There is no way a vaga can kill a deimos unless the deimos is ratting. It can simply wait out the agro timer and dock/jump. Quote: i never tryed, im sure oyu can come up with a nasty setup. use ecm drones, damps and lots of eccm. Vague handwavium. Give me a setup or stfu. Damps and lots of eccm? What ship are you flying that has so many mids? You mentioned the muninn and the deimos, those have THREE mids. Thats 1 eccm, 1 mwd, and 1 disruptor, thats assuming you dont use a web. Quote: But again. I dont understand why you oppose a module that could add some fun to your boring nanolife making fights les predictable.. Ahh yea i know why.. because suddenyl you could die! Yes because fighting 5 vs 15 is very borig indeed. signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link to the image URL) - Jacques([email protected])
Yugami Constible	Posted - 2007.10.29 22:45:00 - [178] Ive been playing MMORPG's since UO's launch too now and have tried many different games since then. When People get this worked up over a Nerf X thread trying too defend whatever the OP wants nerfed it usually ends up in a Nerf'd because it is in fact Imbalanced in someway. The Vaga needs too either be nerfed, Cruisers speeds have diminishing returns as they get faster or something. From a Game design its a bit much, however Im going too hold off on the Nerf Nano's bit and wait until the expansion comes out and see if thiers Long Range Web'r before I decide this games broke and move on.
Klavis lychnuchus	Posted - 2007.10.29 22:48:00 - [179] Edited by: Klavis lychnuchus on 29/10/2007 22:49:05 Very seriously mr OP... ...Can I have your stuff?
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 22:51:00 - [180] Quote: Vague handwavium. Give me a setup or stfu. Damps and lots of eccm? What ship are you flying that has so many mids? You mentioned the muninn and the deimos, those have THREE mids. Thats 1 eccm, 1 mwd, and 1 disruptor, thats assuming you dont use a web. i agree seems quite difficult to put a setup togetter that works 100%. on the other hand how many soloing rooks do you see compared to vagas?
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 22:53:00 - [181] Edited by: d026 on 29/10/2007 22:54:14 Edited by: d026 on 29/10/2007 22:52:58 Quote: Yes because fighting 5 vs 15 is very borig indeed. dont tell me you fight 5 vs 15 if you werent sure to win. also this just proves how imba speedstups are. /ps to the tri guy: was very nice of you that you showed up in bs's yesterday please com back more often
Proxy 13 Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.10.29 23:04:00 - [182] CCP please make the every whine OP do 9999999999 dmg to everything and takes 0.0001 dmg from everything. then people will just say "fill in anything you don't like. i.e. you can't use titans for example
Lesican Minmatar Naughty 40 Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.29 23:06:00 - [183] As someone that flys nano-ships and loves small gang skirmish warfare I have to say speed fits are well balanced. IMO Vagabonds sacrifice a hell of a lot for there speed. Cap stability for your MWD is killed by lack of cap modules and rigs, if you want to run your MWD for an extended period it takes away from your speed, either in lows and rigs, and if you sacrifice a midslot for cap stability say good bye to your paper tank. This means a single Neut will ruin your day and combined with a web will loose you your ship. You also loose allot of damage potential, low slot speed takes away from damage mods on a ship that doesn't hit very hard and as you have to fight in falloff to stay alive at a "safe" orbit speed you miss as often as you hit. This means you spend allot of time gumming your prey to death giving them enough time to get their friends in to fend you off, or to try a few different attempts to either catch you (overheat webs) or drain your cap. You certainly cannot solo the universe and to loose a decent vaga can mean a hell of a grind to replace. Nano gang's can be excellent roaming ships, they give you the option to cover vast amounts of enemy territory, busting through camps or returning to gates (if they look like they have a clue) before you find some prey and have a decent chance of survival for getting the loot home, but the cost involved and the risk's involved, that people who dont fly them certainly do not understand. Some of the most fun can be had constantly changing speeds, orbits and ammo's to catch and kill someone in a group, getting your gang in and out and not loosing an extremely large amounts of isk certainly makes for some brilliant afternoons play. I can see the frustration of someone caught unawares or un prepared, you feel like there is nothing you can do, all your skill training and investments seem mute when you can't fight back, almost as if your ship is useless, but it feels the same way when, dampened, ecm'd, neut'd, caught in a camp and volled to death, etc. When I fly in a well prepared gang, with complementary setups, each ship set to work with the others, between a small gang billions of isk involved the rush is amazing and kills and deaths will always happen. But when I loose my stuff, find my pod in a clone bay, my wallet fast emptying to replace the fun I had, I spare a thought to the guys who won and wish them a fun afternoon too.
Darcuese Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.29 23:13:00 - [184] i think you guys talk to much about ships that have natural speed bonuses, so they need to go lot faster then other ships aND at same time having many disadvantages. I mentioned other ships (without natural speed bonuses) that go 6.5k, and that is not natural in my book (especially when their disadvantages are lesses then vaga going at same speed). But i wont go over with it again. But i would mention those remarks regarding costs of implants (snakes). Normal pilot with ship going 6.5km+ shouldnt have much problem to avoid being podded while in sphere where mosts of implants are losts. So, even though they are most expensive, percentage of such implant losses is lot lesser then with smaller speed ships. So in time, it does get payed me, myself and I ------>
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.29 23:17:00 - [185] Originally by: d026 Quote: Vague handwavium. Give me a setup or stfu. Damps and lots of eccm? What ship are you flying that has so many mids? You mentioned the muninn and the deimos, those have THREE mids. Thats 1 eccm, 1 mwd, and 1 disruptor, thats assuming you dont use a web. i agree seems quite difficult to put a setup togetter that works 100%. on the other hand how many soloing rooks do you see compared to vagas? So you conceed the argument. Thank you. Now should we nerf rooks because according to you anything you cant solo with the right fit should be nerfed? signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link to the image URL) - Jacques([email protected])
Donna Maria Amarr	Posted - 2007.10.29 23:20:00 - [186] Dont be scared of Nana-Vagas. Everyone has to warp to the same gates. A few small bubbles and some smartbombing ships with webs, and see what happens.. Experiment! Doh If you play like Forest Gump, I guess you will be a bit slow. Im the girl momma warned you about..
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.10.29 23:36:00 - [187] Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 29/10/2007 15:00:33 Some things i'd liek to see: No maneuverability/agility while MWD on. 40k webs 20k webs Module to increase targets mass Web sphere (launched from dictors, cant ovelay a dictor sphere) omg stop ***ING. You may not realise it but you are playing the EASY MODE RACE. If you had any idea what was going on, you would have stopped spamming this thread with your "omg my toraps cannot hit thon vaga T_T" crap. Train for a rapier. Train for the new t2 frigates. Put the time and effort the hac pilot did into it. I cant believe this whine thread (a bad whine thread, the Op represents the entire anti nano party well.) has gone on for this god damn long. Caldari **s and ****s in general cannot handle nanoships, but everyone else has no problem seeing and going for the obvious solutions. I really dont want to help you to counter nanoships so im going to let you come up with your own solutions (i look forward to a fleet of target painting ravens coming to a system near me) Even a whiney pve raven can eliminate solo nanoships as any kind of threat. Vaga whiners: shutup... Sac whiners: Yes, its powerful, i think this is recompense for how long it was obsolete for. Ishtar whiners: try flying one, its a very good ship but even a t1 tanked drake with just a web is a real problem... if you cant go in close you lose a lot of drones and this really gimps you (you can only carry 15 heavys...) nanocerb whiners: lol who am i kidding... caldari cant pvp...
Elixibren Fatalix Inc. Rising Sun Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.29 23:42:00 - [188] F*ck it, combat should be chance based. Initiate Combat Flip a coin Whoever loses, dies.
Synapse Archae Amarr Solarflare Heavy Industries Pure.	Posted - 2007.10.29 23:46:00 - [189] Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 29/10/2007 22:54:14 Edited by: d026 on 29/10/2007 22:52:58 Quote: Yes because fighting 5 vs 15 is very borig indeed. dont tell me you fight 5 vs 15 if you werent sure to win. also this just proves how imba speedstups are. /ps to the tri guy: was very nice of you that you showed up in bs's yesterday please com back more often A nano gang can fight 5 v 15, kill 10 of the enemy ships for one loss, and still have lost more isk than killed. - - - Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.29 23:55:00 - [190] Edited by: d026 on 29/10/2007 23:55:35 Quote: So you conceed the argument. Thank you. Now should we nerf rooks because according to you anything you cant solo with the right fit should be nerfed? but you compare differen ship classes to each other. how hard is it for a frig to kill a titan? it seems all hacs are nicely ballanced arround each other. cerb > deimos if fit x,y but deimos > cerb if fit z,x. etc blabla.. but not the vaga. vaga uses fit x and is sucessful 100% of the time (except hes lagging and desyncd)
JamnOne Amarr	Posted - 2007.10.30 00:01:00 - [191] Just like with all of the other nerf threads I don't see an issue. I didn't see one with the Drake, I didn't see one with WCS stacking, I didn't see one with NOS. Can't say anything about Carriers I don't fly them or engage them. Have you tried using Drones? Drones can web a ship and shoot at a ship. If it webs the ship, ship slows down and you can fire your missiles. I am curious - what were you flying and how was your ship setup? ________________________ Originally by: CCP Prism X Hah! Vengeance is sweet!
Zana Kito Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.30 00:05:00 - [192] Edited by: Zana Kito on 30/10/2007 00:06:39 Remember why warp core stabs were nerfed hard? Think about it. Same principle applies to nanofits with faction mwd, snakes and rigs. They aren't so bad but when you add all these multipliers to speed together, it leads to serious imbalance. edit: to the guy above me.. drones to counter nanofits?.. lol.
JamnOne Amarr	Posted - 2007.10.30 00:12:00 - [193] Originally by: Zana Kito Edited by: Zana Kito on 30/10/2007 00:06:39 edit: to the guy above me.. drones to counter nanofits?.. lol. Hmm, if Drones is funny then I guess they need a boost. So is it safe to presume you can send let's say 3 web drones after a nano and it won't slow it down enough for you to shoot at it? ________________________ Originally by: CCP Prism X Hah! Vengeance is sweet!
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.30 00:16:00 - [194] Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 29/10/2007 23:55:35 Quote: So you conceed the argument. Thank you. Now should we nerf rooks because according to you anything you cant solo with the right fit should be nerfed? but you compare differen ship classes to each other. how hard is it for a frig to kill a titan? it seems all hacs are nicely ballanced arround each other. cerb > deimos if fit x,y but deimos > cerb if fit z,x. etc blabla.. but not the vaga. vaga uses fit x and is sucessful 100% of the time (except hes lagging and desyncd) Yes the difference between a recon and a hac is like the difference between a frig and a titan. Both are t2 cruisers. signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link to the image URL) - Jacques([email protected])
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.10.30 00:45:00 - [195] Originally by: JamnOne Originally by: Zana Kito Edited by: Zana Kito on 30/10/2007 00:06:39 edit: to the guy above me.. drones to counter nanofits?.. lol. Hmm, if Drones is funny then I guess they need a boost. So is it safe to presume you can send let's say 3 web drones after a nano and it won't slow it down enough for you to shoot at it? No you're right, smahkill whiners dont understand small gang tactics. I doubt he has any idea how web drones work or why they are helpful... dont give the ******s ideas though
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.30 00:46:00 - [196] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 29/10/2007 23:55:35 Quote: So you conceed the argument. Thank you. Now should we nerf rooks because according to you anything you cant solo with the right fit should be nerfed? but you compare differen ship classes to each other. how hard is it for a frig to kill a titan? it seems all hacs are nicely ballanced arround each other. cerb > deimos if fit x,y but deimos > cerb if fit z,x. etc blabla.. but not the vaga. vaga uses fit x and is sucessful 100% of the time (except hes lagging and desyncd) Yes the difference between a recon and a hac is like the difference between a frig and a titan. Both are t2 cruisers. at leats they nerfed your sig
gregory j Gallente Arcana Imperii Ltd. Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2007.10.30 00:47:00 - [197] Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Carriers then Nanos and then Cap Boosters. What's next? exotic dancers would be my best bet ------------------------------------------------ 2007.02.22 03:34 This evemail message is subject to a CSPA service charge of 2,000,000,000 ISK, which you must accept to complete the invitation.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.30 00:47:00 - [198] Originally by: umop 3pisdn Originally by: JamnOne Originally by: Zana Kito Edited by: Zana Kito on 30/10/2007 00:06:39 edit: to the guy above me.. drones to counter nanofits?.. lol. Hmm, if Drones is funny then I guess they need a boost. So is it safe to presume you can send let's say 3 web drones after a nano and it won't slow it down enough for you to shoot at it? No you're right, smahkill whiners dont understand small gang tactics. I doubt he has any idea how web drones work or why they are helpful... dont give the ******s ideas though yeah a noobcorp alt knows much about small scale pvp
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.30 00:48:00 - [199] and btw its smashkill not smahill , but i agree i'd prefere killsmash:)
Call'Da Poleece	Posted - 2007.10.30 00:50:00 - [200] What would be best would be something that a lot of different ships could field to blow up speed ships, not just scare them off when things arent going to plan, but actually blow them up .... like for example a new heavy missle that would actually do some damage against a ship doing 10km/s or even up to 20km/s... loads of different ships could fit it, give it a nasty side effect and voila, speed gangs can speed all they want, but if they see a ship that fits med missles they run crying for mommy Large amounts of isk spent on implants and mods should not be an automatic iwin button
JamnOne Amarr	Posted - 2007.10.30 01:00:00 - [201] Originally by: umop 3pisdn Originally by: JamnOne Originally by: Zana Kito Edited by: Zana Kito on 30/10/2007 00:06:39 edit: to the guy above me.. drones to counter nanofits?.. lol. Hmm, if Drones is funny then I guess they need a boost. So is it safe to presume you can send let's say 3 web drones after a nano and it won't slow it down enough for you to shoot at it? No you're right, smahkill whiners dont understand small gang tactics. I doubt he has any idea how web drones work or why they are helpful... dont give the ****s ideas though Thats funny that word is not allowed here. And I'm sorry - I won't give out any more ideas. ________________________ Originally by:** CCP Prism X Hah! Vengeance is sweet!
Buyerr	Posted - 2007.10.30 01:32:00 - [202] very easy, let the speed bonus be on basic speed (speed before any bonus) then problem solved... ow **** that actually take brain power to calculate RUN!!! CCP !!! RUUN FOR YOUR LIFE; ARRGGEEREREGEGE YOU NEED TO THINK ARRRRRRRHHH... well yer.. i can't believe they still haven't done this.. anything that takes % of something that had % from something etc.. is bound to end in insane amounts. all the stacking nerf are result of this, and would not have been needed if not for something as stupid as this.. (can't recall what it is called in english, banks does it too). ow well ccp don't have the capacity to think outside the box.
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.10.30 01:45:00 - [203] Originally by: MITSUK0 ECM drones, heavy neuts, overheated webs, piloting skill, interceptors, remote tanking/logistics, co-ordinated flying, weapons capable of dealing damage out to ~26km, killing drones first. Those are just a few counters, some work solo, some work for gangs, all of them work when you do it right. Also if a nano ship attacks you at a gate you allways have the option to de-agress and leave. If a vaga is shooting you then transversal is low and you can shoot back. If an ishtar/curse is orbiting you, kill his drones. The fight will not allways result in a killmail but saying there are no counters to speed setups is stupid. You suck. This is correct. Vagas locking range is low by default. Get a damp.
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.10.30 02:15:00 - [204] Originally by: Buyerr very easy, let the speed bonus be on basic speed (speed before any bonus) then problem solved... ow **** that actually take brain power to calculate RUN!!! CCP !!! RUUN FOR YOUR LIFE; ARRGGEEREREGEGE YOU NEED TO THINK ARRRRRRRHHH... well yer.. i can't believe they still haven't done this.. anything that takes % of something that had % from something etc.. is bound to end in insane amounts. all the stacking nerf are result of this, and would not have been needed if not for something as stupid as this.. (can't recall what it is called in english, banks does it too). ow well ccp don't have the capacity to think outside the box. Most non coherent rant award goes to...
Jade190	Posted - 2007.10.30 03:13:00 - [205] Originally by: d026 Why don't you have a buddy with you to do the tackling? Eve is supposed to be a multi-player game. You cant have both but deny it the others. So either you are not able to keep anything in place or you give me the ability to web you at scram range (+20k). Too bad the vagabond can't maintain it's cap for that long. So it may tackle, but not long enough for it to kill you
Semkhet KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.10.30 07:16:00 - [206] Edited by: Semkhet on 30/10/2007 07:25:10 Originally by: d026 Originally by: umop 3pisdn Originally by: JamnOne Originally by: Zana Kito Edited by: Zana Kito on 30/10/2007 00:06:39 edit: to the guy above me.. drones to counter nanofits?.. lol. Hmm, if Drones is funny then I guess they need a boost. So is it safe to presume you can send let's say 3 web drones after a nano and it won't slow it down enough for you to shoot at it? No you're right, smahkill whiners dont understand small gang tactics. I doubt he has any idea how web drones work or why they are helpful... dont give the ******s ideas though yeah a noobcorp alt knows much about small scale pvp And a peep which uses the sentence "Caldari all the way" in his sig certainly gives the impression that in PvP he's smart enough to use the right tool in the right context at the right time... LMAO Btw, I noticed that in your plethora of obsessive posts dismissing every applicable counter, you conveniently forgot to address how snipers can decimate nanogangs. But why I'm not surprised at your attitude ? You see, it's mainly people with a brain the size of a ladybug unable to fight unless they can field a minimum ratio of 4 vs 1 which have induced other players to excel in the art of skirmish warfare. And on top you are shortsighted enough to attempt to reference what is good for EvE by using metrics which emphasize lack of competence, skills, tactical flair and creativity ? Ever witnessed the degree of discipline, dynamism and clarity required by voice comms of nanogangs ? Guess not, it's slightly more complicated than sitting on your lazy & fat ass calling targets in alphabetic order. Do yourself a favor, go play tic-tac-toe, at least you won't suffer headaches...
Retnik 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.10.30 08:14:00 - [207] I laugh when people defend the vaga saying it's supposed to go fast, and the eos and myrmidon get nerfed when they are supposed to be drone platforms. Difference? They have effective counters and the vaga does not. Seems like backwards logic to me... So every time I see a nano sleipnir I'm going to send CCP a mail stating that's not the intended role of the sleipnir just to remind them the trend they like to randomly follow when it's convienent to them. And I am guilty of trying the Nano-Ishter...it wasn't all that fun imo. _______________________________________
Semkhet KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.10.30 09:06:00 - [208] Edited by: Semkhet on 30/10/2007 09:16:08 Originally by: Retnik I laugh when people defend the vaga saying it's supposed to go fast, and the eos and myrmidon get nerfed when they are supposed to be drone platforms. Difference? They have effective counters and the vaga does not. Seems like backwards logic to me... So every time I see a nano sleipnir I'm going to send CCP a mail stating that's not the intended role of the sleipnir just to remind them the trend they like to randomly follow when it's convienent to them. And I am guilty of trying the Nano-Ishter...it wasn't all that fun imo. Disneyland crappola. A lone Curse will pwn a lone vaga each time. Recipe: A- Activate 2 TD's to reduce the 220mm AC's maximum range to 23.5 Km (500 m optimal + 23 Km falloff when using Barrage), and screw his tracking. B- Once he's orbiting below 23 Km, overheat your T2 disruptor (or better, use a faction mod) and fire one time 3 med unstables. Vaga capacitor is instantly empty. Leave 1 unstable in auto. Activate 2 hvy launchers with CN scourges & unleash 5 Vespa T2. C- MWD at 1.7 Km/sec in direction of the vaga who's now trying to escape without MWD at less than 1 Km/sec. D- Web when you get under 10 Km. Orbit at 8 Km. Pulse your MWD if required. Dead vaga. Bottom point is that a vaga orbiting over your neut range of 38 Km can't hurt you, nor even scram you with an overheated domination disruptor. If he enters your neut range he's in deep poo, and if he come close enough to hit you, he will go down. So what were you saying ? That a vaga does not have counter ?
Gefex	Posted - 2007.10.30 10:57:00 - [209] When over a certain percentage of people start using a certain flavor of the month fit, and a certain percentage of people whine about it enough then it will be changed. I'm sure there is a formula somewhere you could work it out. Its true though, but then eve would suck if everyone flew the same ship/fit, and currently every PvPer worth his salt is training up for some kind of nano fit. Then where would we be? Something has to give eventually, but the longer they wait then the louder the crys will be when all the people who have spent billions on speed fits suddenly realize that they aren't going to own solopwnmobiles anymore.
Semkhet KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.10.30 11:21:00 - [210] Originally by: Gefex When over a certain percentage of people start using a certain flavor of the month fit, and a certain percentage of people whine about it enough then it will be changed. I'm sure there is a formula somewhere you could work it out. Its true though, but then eve would suck if everyone flew the same ship/fit, and currently every PvPer worth his salt is training up for some kind of nano fit. Then where would we be? Something has to give eventually, but the longer they wait then the louder the crys will be when all the people who have spent billions on speed fits suddenly realize that they aren't going to own solopwnmobiles anymore. Well, that's another thing that always make me laugh, no matter if in EVE or RL. Do you think that any mentally sane individual would not use the most performing tool in a given area provided he enjoys both the skills to use it properly and the money to own it ? Last time I checked athletes use the best gear, racers use the best cars, armies attempt to field the best equipment, HiFi freaks use the best high-end devices, etc... Bottom line, everyone, no matter if individual, institution or government, attempts to get the best affordable hardware in an area which for whatever reason got prioritized. It's like what ? 2000 years that we function that way ? So why are there peeps immature & unrealistic enough to dismiss what is common practice in the whole history of humanity, no matter the time or place ? Besides, this whole stinking whine against nanoships is a monument to the ineptitude of those who can't counter them using the myriad of existing & effective tactics. Do you think that if someone invests the same amount of isk required by an excellent nanopilot into a shield or armor tank, you would be able to break that tank without problems ? Hell, a Gist-B X-Large SB costs less than a low-grade snake set. Now let's see how easy you break a BS tank which can permarun such a booster...
Gefex	Posted - 2007.10.30 11:27:00 - [211] Originally by: Semkhet Do you think that any mentally sane individual would not use the most performing tool in a given area provided he enjoys both the skills to use it properly and the money to own it ? Well thats kinda my point, Nanos = the 'best' tool at the moment so everyone is using them, when everyone starts to use the same thing then there is clearly an issue with balance. Originally by: Semkhet Do you think that if someone invests the same amount of isk required by an excellent nanopilot into a shield or armor tank, you would be able to break that tank without problems ? Hell, a Gist-B X-Large SB costs less than a low-grade snake set. Now let's see how easy you break a BS tank which can permarun such a booster... Not going to get into the whole 'counter' argument, but that 1 bill booster can be completely nullified by a couple of heavy neuts.
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.30 11:38:00 - [212] Edited by: Drasked on 30/10/2007 11:43:02 Originally by: Gefex Originally by: Semkhet Do you think that any mentally sane individual would not use the most performing tool in a given area provided he enjoys both the skills to use it properly and the money to own it ? Well thats kinda my point, Nanos = the 'best' tool at the moment so everyone is using them, when everyone starts to use the same thing then there is clearly an issue with balance. Originally by: Semkhet Do you think that if someone invests the same amount of isk required by an excellent nanopilot into a shield or armor tank, you would be able to break that tank without problems ? Hell, a Gist-B X-Large SB costs less than a low-grade snake set. Now let's see how easy you break a BS tank which can permarun such a booster... Not going to get into the whole 'counter' argument, but that 1 bill booster can be completely nullified by a couple of heavy neuts. Nano ships won't win you a pos war, so they are the best tool for a specific job. Also a 1bil nano setup can also be nullified by a couple of webs.
Semkhet KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.10.30 11:55:00 - [213] Originally by: Drasked Edited by: Drasked on 30/10/2007 11:43:02 Originally by: Gefex Originally by: Semkhet Do you think that any mentally sane individual would not use the most performing tool in a given area provided he enjoys both the skills to use it properly and the money to own it ? Well thats kinda my point, Nanos = the 'best' tool at the moment so everyone is using them, when everyone starts to use the same thing then there is clearly an issue with balance. Originally by: Semkhet Do you think that if someone invests the same amount of isk required by an excellent nanopilot into a shield or armor tank, you would be able to break that tank without problems ? Hell, a Gist-B X-Large SB costs less than a low-grade snake set. Now let's see how easy you break a BS tank which can permarun such a booster... Not going to get into the whole 'counter' argument, but that 1 bill booster can be completely nullified by a couple of heavy neuts. Nano ships won't win you a pos war, so they are the best tool for a specific job. Also a 1bil nano setup can also be nullified by a couple of webs. My point exactly. There's no "I-Win" button in EvE. Rather ships and pods that have been optimized to the last bit to excel in a very specific job. And circumstancially it happens that the vast majority of whiners don't excel in any particular ingame area but in forum whining
Inflexible Rytiri Lva	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:02:00 - [214] Originally by: Semkhet ...Once he's orbiting below 23 Km... So what were you saying ? That a vaga does not have counter ? You missed the point. There is nothing wrong or overpowered with vaga willing to fight. Nanoships (in general, not only vaga) not willing to fight ARE pain.
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:05:00 - [215] Edited by: Drasked on 30/10/2007 12:06:55 Originally by: Inflexible Originally by: Semkhet ...Once he's orbiting below 23 Km... So what were you saying ? That a vaga does not have counter ? You missed the point. There is nothing wrong or overpowered with vaga willing to fight. Nanoships (in general, not only vaga) not willing to fight ARE pain. Then its up to you to make them willing to fight, ie. pose as having 2 people instead of 20. Its quite simple, if im in an uber tanked bs and i dont want to fight, i dont fight. Your basicly saying that people that dont want to fight are a pain, well DUHOOOOOOOOOOOH this we already knew.
Mc Fraser Enterprise Estonia Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:12:00 - [216] to OP: remeber that the vagabond cant orbit very long with this speed so u just need to tank a bit and if he slows down u hit him bretty well :)
Gefex	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:21:00 - [217] Originally by: Drasked Nano ships won't win you a pos war, so they are the best tool for a specific job. They are suited to a multitude of jobs, but I don't think you understand what i'm saying to you, unless you want this to become a game of nanoships online then something has to give. You can defend it till the cows come home, come up with new counters on a daily basis, but the fact is more and more people are jumping into these fits on a daily basis. Jumping on the bandwagon as it were. I can see it now, huge roaming blobs of vaga's and ishtars, that never actually get to shoot anything because they cant catch each other.
Baleur Miners In Barges Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:22:00 - [218] Originally by: Arlenna Molatov I would just like to point out that the other day I was shooting a vagabond with precision cruise missles, 2x T2 painters and all missle skills @ lv 4. My missles were STILL hitting for 0.0 damage!! This ship was doing 6600m/s. CCP, I would REALLY like to ask HOW in the damn hell are you supposed to fight a ship you cant hit?? It's faster than most interceptors and those should be the FASTEST ships in the game!! In a combat perspective, this has bogged the game down to virtually nothing. These ships can single handedly come in and kill ANYTHIGN while the other ship can do NOTHING because its not nearly as fast to catch the vagabond nor will ANY weapons system hit it for any dmg. You want to talk about a balance issue? Becauseif NANO ships are the end-all be-all to combat then I think EVE has outlived its playability. I could give a you know what to anyone else who is just going to spam useless crap and such. The facts speak for themselves. A Vagabond can kill ANY ship and hit them without that other ship being able to defend itsself. So CCP, i would really like to know the Devs thoughts on this issue or if they even think its an issue. Dude, there are counters for ships going that fast.. Its called Stasis Webifiers. Enjoy your newfound knowledge! ------------------------- This post represents my entire corporation's views and opinions. ;>
Gericault m0id Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:28:00 - [219] Read http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=625332
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:29:00 - [220] Originally by: Gefex Originally by: Drasked Nano ships won't win you a pos war, so they are the best tool for a specific job. They are suited to a multitude of jobs, but I don't think you understand what i'm saying to you, unless you want this to become a game of nanoships online then something has to give. You can defend it till the cows come home, come up with new counters on a daily basis, but the fact is more and more people are jumping into these fits on a daily basis. Jumping on the bandwagon as it were. I can see it now, huge roaming blobs of vaga's and ishtars, that never actually get to shoot anything because they cant catch each other. I do notice the increasing populairity of nano fits, i also notice the increasing ammount of nubs on my killboard that get raped in their nano ships because they believe the majority of noobs in threads like these about it being uber hard to catch nano ships.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:30:00 - [221] Originally by: Baleur Dude, there are counters for ships going that fast.. Its called Stasis Webifiers. Enjoy your newfound knowledge! ohh no.. why didnt i think about this. and how am i supposed to get into webrange?
Semkhet KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:34:00 - [222] Originally by: Inflexible Originally by: Semkhet ...Once he's orbiting below 23 Km... So what were you saying ? That a vaga does not have counter ? You missed the point. There is nothing wrong or overpowered with vaga willing to fight. Nanoships (in general, not only vaga) not willing to fight ARE pain. No need to refer to nanoships for peeps who don't want to fight. Someone really needs to be pathologically incompetent to enter a fight against his will given the amount of tactics you can rely on to provide field intel except for cloaked ships. Besides, people leave battlefields every day by simply tanking and slowboating back to the gate, you want to nerf that too ? And let's be realistic here. Go check killmails, and study setups of pwned ships. Sometimes you will find jewels like Huginn/Rapiers fielding T1 webs, caldari ships fielding hull repairers, and other smart moves like 5 months old players getting popped in battleships. It takes two to dance a tango, and some players have already lost the fight before they even undock, they just don't know it yet.
Hugh Ruka Caldari Free Traders Free Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:34:00 - [223] inertia mechanics ? I mean the faster you go, the more force you need to apply to change your direction/speed. So let's make ships harder to change direction with more speed. Same works for acceleration. The faster you go, the slower your ship accelerates. This way a vaga pilot going 6kms will only be able to fly in a straight line until he slows down to a speed that allows him to change direction. This will not make missiles hit them better, but makes life of the nano pilot harder and more susceptible to turret hits. Originally by: Aravel Thon Originally by: Nith Batoxxx Hi my alt just leanred to fly the ferox............... I am so so terribly sorry...
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:38:00 - [224] Originally by: d026 Originally by: Baleur Dude, there are counters for ships going that fast.. Its called Stasis Webifiers. Enjoy your newfound knowledge! ohh no.. why didnt i think about this. and how am i supposed to get into webrange? By moving?
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:40:00 - [225] Originally by: Drasked Originally by: d026 Originally by: Baleur Dude, there are counters for ships going that fast.. Its called Stasis Webifiers. Enjoy your newfound knowledge! ohh no.. why didnt i think about this. and how am i supposed to get into webrange? By moving? sorry i dont go that fast..
Semkhet KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:43:00 - [226] Originally by: d026 Originally by: Baleur Dude, there are counters for ships going that fast.. Its called Stasis Webifiers. Enjoy your newfound knowledge! ohh no.. why didnt i think about this. and how am i supposed to get into webrange? If you don't fit a speed setup and you refer to 1vs1, you are NOT supposed to get into web range YOURSELF, but instead oblige your opponent to enter said range by damping or track disrupting. But don't come whining on boards again if your opponent got a brain and leaves the battlefield after seeing that he can't fight on his own terms. Do you ignore that the first rule to win is to know when NOT to fight ?
Semkhet KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:45:00 - [227] Originally by: Hugh Ruka inertia mechanics ? I mean the faster you go, the more force you need to apply to change your direction/speed. So let's make ships harder to change direction with more speed. Same works for acceleration. The faster you go, the slower your ship accelerates. This way a vaga pilot going 6kms will only be able to fly in a straight line until he slows down to a speed that allows him to change direction. This will not make missiles hit them better, but makes life of the nano pilot harder and more susceptible to turret hits. This has already been done with the Istab stacking nerf. Why do you think that Nanophoons and the likes have disappeared ?
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:50:00 - [228] Edited by: d026 on 30/10/2007 12:50:44 Originally by: Semkhet Edited by: Semkhet on 30/10/2007 12:47:43 Originally by: d026 Originally by: Baleur Dude, there are counters for ships going that fast.. Its called Stasis Webifiers. Enjoy your newfound knowledge! ohh no.. why didnt i think about this. and how am i supposed to get into webrange? If you don't fit a speed setup and you refer to 1vs1, you are NOT supposed to get into web range ALL BY YOURSELF, but instead oblige your opponent to get close to said range by damping or track disrupting for example. But don't come whining on boards again if your opponent obviously got a brain and leaves the battlefield after understanding that he can't fight on his own terms. Do you ignore that the first rule to win is to know when NOT to fight ? thats the problem. if you damp, ecm, send drones after them they just leave. i dont have any viable tools to keep him in place and having him commiting to a fight. so the vaga is always dictating the outcome of a fight. which imho is completely imbalanced.
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:51:00 - [229] Edited by: Drasked on 30/10/2007 12:55:57 Originally by: Semkhet Originally by: d026 Originally by: Baleur Dude, there are counters for ships going that fast.. Its called Stasis Webifiers. Enjoy your newfound knowledge! ohh no.. why didnt i think about this. and how am i supposed to get into webrange? If you don't fit a speed setup and you refer to 1vs1, you are NOT supposed to get into web range YOURSELF, but instead oblige your opponent to enter said range by damping or track disrupting. But don't come whining on boards again if your opponent got a brain and leaves the battlefield after seeing that he can't fight on his own terms. Do you ignore that the first rule to win is to know when NOT to fight ? QFT, ships should not be balanced for 1on1 fights, this is a mmo, make a plan, get a friend and kill that nano guy. (this is directed at d026) Stop repeating how hard or impossible this is, ITS NOT. Since i am perfectly able to kill nano ships and you just cant seem to figure out how to, it just looks to me like your a newb at pvp.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:52:00 - [230] Edited by: d026 on 30/10/2007 12:52:22 Originally by: Drasked QFT, ships should not be balanced for 1on1 fights, this is a mmo, make a plan, get a friend and kill that nano guy. then remove the vagas excellent soloability to.. its a mmo remember?
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:57:00 - [231] Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 30/10/2007 12:52:22 Originally by: Drasked QFT, ships should not be balanced for 1on1 fights, this is a mmo, make a plan, get a friend and kill that nano guy. then remove the vagas excellent soloability to.. its a mmo remember? Since when can a vaga solo kill something?
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:59:00 - [232] Originally by: Drasked Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 30/10/2007 12:52:22 Originally by: Drasked QFT, ships should not be balanced for 1on1 fights, this is a mmo, make a plan, get a friend and kill that nano guy. then remove the vagas excellent soloability to.. its a mmo remember? Since when can a vaga solo kill something? since the day the were introduced?
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.30 13:00:00 - [233] Originally by: d026 Originally by: Drasked Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 30/10/2007 12:52:22 Originally by: Drasked QFT, ships should not be balanced for 1on1 fights, this is a mmo, make a plan, get a friend and kill that nano guy. then remove the vagas excellent soloability to.. its a mmo remember? Since when can a vaga solo kill something? since the day the were introduced? !!!EPIC FAILURE ALERT!!!EPIC FAILURE ALERT!!! If a ship of the same size or bigger gets solod by a vagabond your comitting the act of COMPLETE FAILURE. !!!EPIC FAILURE ALERT!!!EPIC FAILURE ALERT!!!
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.30 13:11:00 - [234] Originally by: d026 Originally by: Phocas Lebournes OP, not every ship can by default win against any other ship on its own. Rapier or Huginn is your best friend against a vagabond. every ship can beat the opposites setup somehow. except none can win against a vaga without webbing/scrambling support except another faster vaga.. oo and no ship can ever win against a tank ship except if setup for high damage.. your point? What you want next? that a covert ops frigate can kill a tempest? If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.30 13:23:00 - [235] Edited by: d026 on 30/10/2007 13:24:01 Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: d026 Originally by: Phocas Lebournes OP, not every ship can by default win against any other ship on its own. Rapier or Huginn is your best friend against a vagabond. every ship can beat the opposites setup somehow. except none can win against a vaga without webbing/scrambling support except another faster vaga.. oo and no ship can ever win against a tank ship except if setup for high damage.. your point? What you want next? that a covert ops frigate can kill a tempest? see counter to tank gank or neuts. all those result in the destruction of the tanked ships. none of the counters to speedfits you keep mentioning result in the destruction of the vaga.
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.30 13:33:00 - [236] Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 30/10/2007 13:24:01 Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: d026 Originally by: Phocas Lebournes OP, not every ship can by default win against any other ship on its own. Rapier or Huginn is your best friend against a vagabond. every ship can beat the opposites setup somehow. except none can win against a vaga without webbing/scrambling support except another faster vaga.. oo and no ship can ever win against a tank ship except if setup for high damage.. your point? What you want next? that a covert ops frigate can kill a tempest? see counter to tank gank or neuts. all those result in the destruction of the tanked ships. none of the counters to speedfits you keep mentioning result in the destruction of the vaga. 1 huginn results in the easy destruction of a vagabond, other tactics result in a good chance to destruct the vagabond with ease.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.30 13:39:00 - [237] Originally by: Drasked Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 30/10/2007 13:24:01 Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: d026 Originally by: Phocas Lebournes OP, not every ship can by default win against any other ship on its own. Rapier or Huginn is your best friend against a vagabond. every ship can beat the opposites setup somehow. except none can win against a vaga without webbing/scrambling support except another faster vaga.. oo and no ship can ever win against a tank ship except if setup for high damage.. your point? What you want next? that a covert ops frigate can kill a tempest? see counter to tank gank or neuts. all those result in the destruction of the tanked ships. none of the counters to speedfits you keep mentioning result in the destruction of the vaga. 1 huginn results in the easy destruction of a vagabond, other tactics result in a good chance to destruct the vagabond with ease. but thats not the issue. if i have to bring a huggin to nail you down ffs you have to bring a ceptor to nail me down. its not acepptable that you can fly solo and have all the benefits and i have to bring a smal gang to evetually counter you.
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.30 13:49:00 - [238] Originally by: d026 but thats not the issue. if i have to bring a huggin to nail you down ffs you have to bring a ceptor to nail me down. its not acepptable that you can fly solo and have all the benefits and i have to bring a smal gang to evetually counter you. Look, a vaga can not solo something of the same class or bigger. Bringing a huginn to the table result in a confirmed kill if you play your cards right. Besides that there is a multitude of other tricks to catch them wich im not going to share with you. A solo vagabond can not pose a thread to you, unless your caught with your pants down, in wich case you need to die. Also i dont see what your problem is with vagabonds, there are some other ships wich are a lot more dangerous then a vagabond when set up for speed, a solo vagabond fit for speed is one of the lowest dangers on my list.
Semkhet KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.10.30 13:59:00 - [239] Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 30/10/2007 12:50:44 Originally by: Semkhet Edited by: Semkhet on 30/10/2007 12:47:43 Originally by: d026 Originally by: Baleur Dude, there are counters for ships going that fast.. Its called Stasis Webifiers. Enjoy your newfound knowledge! ohh no.. why didnt i think about this. and how am i supposed to get into webrange? If you don't fit a speed setup and you refer to 1vs1, you are NOT supposed to get into web range ALL BY YOURSELF, but instead oblige your opponent to get close to said range by damping or track disrupting for example. But don't come whining on boards again if your opponent obviously got a brain and leaves the battlefield after understanding that he can't fight on his own terms. Do you ignore that the first rule to win is to know when NOT to fight ? thats the problem. if you damp, ecm, send drones after them they just leave. i dont have any viable tools to keep him in place and having him commiting to a fight. so the vaga is always dictating the outcome of a fight. which imho is completely imbalanced. And which structural difference exists between a Vaga deciding to leave a 1vs1 fight thanks to its speed with any player assessing the potential threat you represent before deciding to engage or not ? Don't you realize that most of the time, you have no means to detect that a given player has determined the probability of engaging you as negative, and just went it's own way ? You can't know WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW for pete's sake. If you dislike nanoships so much, train a Curse at lvl5 and you will represent such a threat that you won't even see their butts anymore.
Retnik 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.10.30 16:38:00 - [240] Edited by: Retnik on 30/10/2007 16:44:01 Edited by: Retnik on 30/10/2007 16:39:46 Eos/Myrmidon Counters Heavy AND Medium Drones Large Blasters/Rails/Beams/Pulse/AC/Artillary Medium Blasters/Rails/Beams/Pulse/AC/Artillary A bunch of Small Blasters/Rails/Beams/Pulse/AC/Artillary Missile Spammage of all sorts Neuts Webs Damps Tracking Disruptors Blobs of the above Pilot Error Vagabond Counters Huginn/Rapier Heavy Neuts (with a web) Pilot Error (you damn sure better have a web when he screws up) Webs (See above) (Oh wait guns missiles won't hit you can't put there there) And my drone ships are getting nerfed. Balance \o/ _______________________________________
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.10.30 17:28:00 - [241] Edited by: Xaen on 30/10/2007 17:32:30 Originally by: Arlenna Molatov I would just like to point out that the other day I was shooting a vagabond with precision cruise missles, 2x T2 painters and all missle skills @ lv 4. My missles were STILL hitting for 0.0 damage!! This ship was doing 6600m/s. CCP, I would REALLY like to ask HOW in the damn hell are you supposed to fight a ship you cant hit?? It's faster than most interceptors and those should be the FASTEST ships in the game!! In a combat perspective, this has bogged the game down to virtually nothing. These ships can single handedly come in and kill ANYTHIGN while the other ship can do NOTHING because its not nearly as fast to catch the vagabond nor will ANY weapons system hit it for any dmg. You want to talk about a balance issue? Becauseif NANO ships are the end-all be-all to combat then I think EVE has outlived its playability. I could give a you know what to anyone else who is just going to spam useless crap and such. The facts speak for themselves. A Vagabond can kill ANY ship and hit them without that other ship being able to defend itsself. So CCP, i would really like to know the Devs thoughts on this issue or if they even think its an issue. Was he able to kill you? What were you flying? Do you realize he can't maintain that speed for more than a minute or so? Unless has has cap boosters, then he has NO HP buffer. Note I said HP buffer, not "tank". I've never seen a decent vagabond fit with a true tank that could still do damage or go fast. This guy also probably had a snake set. It probably cost him upwards of 1B ISK to go that fast. And one little Huginn/Rapier/lag spike/bad luck could cost him all of that. It's just like people ***ing that their battleship won't be able to pwn interceptors with their new range bonuses. So what? They won't be able to kill your battleship either. So what if they're capable of locking down a solo battleship and surviving? It's their job.** It's perfectly balanced as long as they're not able to also kill said battleship solo. Provided, of course that battleship has a decent tank. Or the people *****ing about the ungodly tank on a drake. So? It has the DPS of an autistic infant. -- Support fixing the EVE UI
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.10.30 17:47:00 - [242] Originally by: Reem Fairchild (And there's also boosters, gang bonuses and so on...) But the latest big adjustment to speed mods and how speed works in general came this spring when we already had all of that. I'll agree that the 10+ km/s Vagabonds and the 20+ km/s interceptors (I think the record is in the 50s with boosters, gang bonuses, a Claymore nearby, overheating, etc. ...) are out of bounds. But 6-7 km/s on a Vagabond is hardly that bad if you have an expensive fit or implants. The record is somewhere around 69km/s actually. On TQ. Legitimately. I don't even have a problem with those speeds. Why? Any ship set up going that fast is going to be in and out of it's targeting range in fractions of a second to, at most, a second or two. In short, it's completely useless. Even the guy that has that 52km crow you're referring to admits it's impractical for actually doing anything with. -- Support fixing the EVE UI
Semkhet KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.10.30 18:03:00 - [243] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Reem Fairchild (And there's also boosters, gang bonuses and so on...) But the latest big adjustment to speed mods and how speed works in general came this spring when we already had all of that. I'll agree that the 10+ km/s Vagabonds and the 20+ km/s interceptors (I think the record is in the 50s with boosters, gang bonuses, a Claymore nearby, overheating, etc. ...) are out of bounds. But 6-7 km/s on a Vagabond is hardly that bad if you have an expensive fit or implants. The record is somewhere around 69km/s actually. On TQ. Legitimately. I don't even have a problem with those speeds. Why? Any ship set up going that fast is going to be in and out of it's targeting range in fractions of a second to, at most, a second or two. In short, it's completely useless. Even the guy that has that 52km crow you're referring to admits it's impractical for actually doing anything with. Correct. There's a whole mythology going around in nublet circles about insane speeds, while few of these noobs have any idea about what's the difference between a ship simply maxed for speed and a ship maxed both for combat & speed. I often prefer to slap either a damage mod or an additional istab in my last low. Besides, a completely overlooked factor by all these peeps is that while they wouldn't even notice half a second lag, these 500 msec might mean for a nanoship missing its mark by 3 to over 10 Km range, and bump in a gate or whatever object, what often turns into its demise.
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.10.30 18:05:00 - [244] Originally by: umop 3pisdn Your drones are VERY vulnerable while you are at high speed and orbitting outside web range. Not just vulnerable, they're completely on their own. You can't rescoop them period if you're orbiting at any speed above 400 m/s. You might get some of them, but I constantly have drone scooping issues when flying my Vagabond with no MWD. Weird drone behavior causes 2-3 of then to invariably fail to return. Even at 480m/s. At nanospeeds? It's completely impossible to rescoop. -- Support fixing the EVE UI
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.10.30 18:06:00 - [245] Originally by: Lord DeFault Problem is the newbs, that only nanagank single targets And wouldn't engage in a fair fight to save there mothers life. If you're in a fair fight, you're doing it wrong. -- Support fixing the EVE UI
Izo Azlion Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.10.30 18:11:00 - [246] Originally by: Arlenna Molatov I would just like to point out that the other day I was shooting a vagabond with precision cruise missles, 2x T2 painters and all missle skills @ lv 4. My missles were STILL hitting for 0.0 damage!! This ship was doing 6600m/s. CCP, I would REALLY like to ask HOW in the damn hell are you supposed to fight a ship you cant hit?? It's faster than most interceptors and those should be the FASTEST ships in the game!! In a combat perspective, this has bogged the game down to virtually nothing. These ships can single handedly come in and kill ANYTHIGN while the other ship can do NOTHING because its not nearly as fast to catch the vagabond nor will ANY weapons system hit it for any dmg. You want to talk about a balance issue? Becauseif NANO ships are the end-all be-all to combat then I think EVE has outlived its playability. I could give a you know what to anyone else who is just going to spam useless crap and such. The facts speak for themselves. A Vagabond can kill ANY ship and hit them without that other ship being able to defend itsself. So CCP, i would really like to know the Devs thoughts on this issue or if they even think its an issue. Tbh. Izo Azlion. ---
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.10.30 18:19:00 - [247] Originally by: d026 or give us 40k webbers... Here are two. Oh and, there's a third. STFU now? -- Support fixing the EVE UI
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.10.30 18:25:00 - [248] Originally by: d026 agreed. to kill 5 nanos you need 10 recons + support or 5 nanos. which makes everythign except nanos obsolete.. lol I'm glad there are people in EVE that think like you do. It makes for far easier prey. But so I'm not totally trolling... Fast Interceptor + Web = dead nano. They invariably have paper tanks or low DPS. Frequently both. -- Support fixing the EVE UI
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.10.30 18:33:00 - [249] Originally by: d026 all ships i have flown so far where heaviliy balanced. cerb beats deimos with fit a, deimos beats cerb with fit b etc.. every ship seems to be able to kill every other ship with the right setup. but this just does not apply to speedfits. the only counters are a 40k web combined with a 40k scram or another speed setup which makes everythign slow obsolete. There's more to balance than being able to kill/not kill a ship. Speed ships sacrifice a great deal of tank and usually damage too to be able to go that fast. Most vagabond fits I've seen that go >5k/s do ~100-130 DPS at the ranges they actually fight at. A crow can beat that. And go faster. And at the 6600 m/s speed, their guns are probably not hitting anymore. So you're looking at about 148 DPS with excellent drone skills. And the drones are poppable. And the missiles can be shot down with defenders. Stop complaining and try thinking of solutions. -- Support fixing the EVE UI
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.10.30 18:34:00 - [250] Originally by: Inflexible Thats the problem - you actually need minmatar recon (ONE race's SINGLE shipclass) to actually force some random ghey to fight. 10km web is utterly useless against them. Without minmatar recon in gang you are guaranteed to not win any small PvP encounter, especially if you are caldari. No you don't. Fast interceptor + web = dead nano. -- Support fixing the EVE UI
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.10.30 18:36:00 - [251] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: d026 agreed. to kill 5 nanos you need 10 recons + support or 5 nanos. which makes everythign except nanos obsolete.. lol I'm glad there are people in EVE that think like you do. It makes for far easier prey. But so I'm not totally trolling... Fast Interceptor + Web = dead nano. They invariably have paper tanks or low DPS. Frequently both. tbh d026 needs to get a noob corp alt like me before he makes roadkill look like a bunch of whiny, incompetent blobbing nubca... oh wait. My favorite was when someone said chase them with a web and his response was "I dont move that fast" An hero, he should look into it.
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.10.30 18:40:00 - [252] Originally by: d026 to kill a deimos with fit a i use fit b on my muninn. to kill a sacrilege with fit c i use fit d on my deimos. to kill a vagabond in a sacrilege i need a huginn/rapier. dont this strike you odd? Killability is not the only factor in balancing. Vagabond's DPS is unimpressive and it's tank is a joke. I'm not going to give you tips on killing them because you're not worthy. If you can't figure it out yourself then too bad. -- Support fixing the EVE UI
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.10.30 18:42:00 - [253] Originally by: d026 1. speed which only a minority of ships can use to they're advantage 2. long range webs which only are available from a minmatar recon 3. long range scrams which again are only available from gallente recons I can think of four more. Just because you can't doesn't make them overpowered. -- Support fixing the EVE UI
Manerethen The Caldari Confederation	Posted - 2007.10.30 18:48:00 - [254] The thing is a nano-vaga gang will not engage a group, generally, that has more than a couple of ships. I have found that they tend to sit at extreme range, get very annoyed and drop a Nyx and a Thanatos on you (Thanks YouWhat). Manerethen
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.10.30 19:02:00 - [255] Originally by: umop 3pisdn My favorite was when someone said chase them with a web and his response was "I dont move that fast" lol, I missed that. In attempt to keep this constructive....get a ship that moves faster? -- Support fixing the EVE UI
MITSUK0	Posted - 2007.10.30 19:25:00 - [256] People seem to expect a PUSH BUTAN counter to nano ships. That is why they see huggins/rapiers as the only viable counter. There have been plenty of counters listed in this thread and more that have not. If applyed correctly they can get you kills on nano ships. It takes some piloting skill to fly nano ships and suprise suprise it takes some piloting skill to kill them. You cannot just PUSH I-WIN BUTAN.
Dupac Grumpy Old Farts Gruntfuttocks	Posted - 2007.10.30 19:27:00 - [257] In shock news - vaga's are quite fast 6.6km/s isn't that fast for a vaga. My standard fit no snakes vaga goes that quick. It's certainly not "faster than an interceptor" unless you have some pretty poor ceptor setups As they can't hit very well at that speed, won't have a web fitted, you could always just go back and jump through the gate, or tank it until some friendly arrives. Unless ofc you're caught by one on your own, in the middle of nowhere with no friends. In which case looking at local would serve you better than crying your eyes out on the forums. "A Vagabond can kill ANY ship and hit them without that other ship being able to defend itsself" my rapier disagrees.
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.10.30 19:51:00 - [258] Originally by: MITSUK0 PUSH BUTAN Originally by: MITSUK0 PUSH I-WIN BUTAN. roflz....for the love of FSM... Almost good enough to become my new sig. -- Support fixing the EVE UI
OOOSOOO	Posted - 2007.10.30 20:42:00 - [259] Originally by: Arlenna Molatov I would just like to point out that the other day I was shooting a vagabond with precision cruise missles, 2x T2 painters and all missle skills @ lv 4. My missles were STILL hitting for 0.0 damage!! This ship was doing 6600m/s. CCP, I would REALLY like to ask HOW in the damn hell are you supposed to fight a ship you cant hit?? It's faster than most interceptors and those should be the FASTEST ships in the game!! In a combat perspective, this has bogged the game down to virtually nothing. These ships can single handedly come in and kill ANYTHIGN while the other ship can do NOTHING because its not nearly as fast to catch the vagabond nor will ANY weapons system hit it for any dmg. You want to talk about a balance issue? Becauseif NANO ships are the end-all be-all to combat then I think EVE has outlived its playability. I could give a you know what to anyone else who is just going to spam useless crap and such. The facts speak for themselves. A Vagabond can kill ANY ship and hit them without that other ship being able to defend itsself. So CCP, i would really like to know the Devs thoughts on this issue or if they even think its an issue. I do not know if the following has been covered yet because I did not read the entire thread, but just incase: STFU
ChimeraRouge Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.11.05 22:00:00 - [260] i agree with op, polycarbons should be removed from the game, snakes should have a stacking nerf, and weight should be added to the ishtar, vagabond, and curse.
Hellspawn01 Amarr Shadow Rebellion	Posted - 2007.11.05 22:09:00 - [261] You jsut want to gank any ship in a 1vs1 in a MULTIPLAYER game. USe your little brain and get a friend if you have some and kill the mofo. Dont come whining here cuz you¦re too stupid to kill someone thats smarter than you. Ship lovers click here

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