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When will Jita be fixed tbh?

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Error404	Posted - 2007.11.26 10:05:00 - [1] I mean the fix for Yulai wasn't to dump it on another system, i entered Jita and my game crashed, now i've been stuck there for 2 days with a blank screen and not been able to log the **** in.... Please FFS come upw ith a fix for Jita like erm how about not just having one center of trade on a 1980's server that can't even handle only 600 people logged into it.
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.11.26 10:08:00 - [2] HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!! Originally by: Karen Serasia Because some idiot decided to sell an internet connection to me and didn't think of the consequences.
Xtreem Gallente Knockaround Guys Inc. Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.26 10:11:00 - [3] dont go into jita then.. and u obviously dont understand how things work with the statments u make there
Error404	Posted - 2007.11.26 10:15:00 - [4] That's all anyone says is don't go Jita but tbh it's the trade centre i have to go there and really why not just ***** delete Jita from the game if noone should go there? ***** Moron community or what.
Error404	Posted - 2007.11.26 10:16:00 - [5] Woah heres what i do when i play eve for 2 hours.... http://media.putfile.com/wooeveissoogreat
Eulalinda Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.26 10:17:00 - [6] Edited by: Eulalinda on 26/11/2007 10:19:10 ...And along comes the chorus of CCP disciples singing "Don't talk about Jita!" I agree. Jita needs fixed. Since you can't login, please file a stuck petition and a GM will promptly move you to a neighboring system. Originally by: Error404 Woah heres what i do when i play eve for 2 hours.... http://media.putfile.com/wooeveissoogreat lol
Sleepkevert Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.26 10:23:00 - [7] Edited by: Sleepkevert on 26/11/2007 10:23:56 Originally by: Error404 I mean the fix for Yulai wasn't to dump it on another system, i entered Jita and my game crashed, now i've been stuck there for 2 days with a blank screen and not been able to log the ** in.... FAIL, log on in quiet times and gtfo, or have some patience while logging in... Originally by:** Error404 Please FFS come upw ith a fix for Jita like erm how about not just having one center of trade on a 1980's server that can't even handle only 600 people logged into it. Double fail! The server handled over 37000 people yesterday. How can't it handle 600 people again? _______ Sign my sig
Jakus Cemendur Caldari The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.11.26 10:23:00 - [8] CCP are looking into making the server a supercomputer to help improve performance, but until then there is no quick or easy solution for Jita. They make hardware and software improvements so say 500 people can go there and 700 people go there.
Amberly Coteaz Amarr Blood Corsair's	Posted - 2007.11.26 10:27:00 - [9] There is a sig floating round somehwere that I am trying to quote from memory "Jita doesnt lag because it is crowded, Jita lags because players keep going to Jita until it lags" If you find yourself in a fair fight, something has gone wrong
Mark Lucius The Vinlanders SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.26 10:29:00 - [10] Dev reply on the matter. --- Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.11.26 10:29:00 - [11] Improving performance in Jita just means it gets stuffed with more players and becomes laggy again. Easiest way to 'fix' Jita is to simply avoid it. There are better deals to be had elsewhere if you bother to look. ============================================
VicturusTeSaluto	Posted - 2007.11.26 10:29:00 - [12] There is no reason to go to Jita
Horchan Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.26 10:29:00 - [13] Originally by: Jakus Cemendur CCP are looking into making the server a supercomputer to help improve performance, but until then there is no quick or easy solution for Jita. They make hardware and software improvements so say 500 people can go there and 700 people go there. This. Every time they "fix" Jita so it's stable with more people in it, EVEN MORE people will go there, until so many people are there that it lags out again. This problem will never be solved until people get it through their thick skulls that CCP isn't at fault, the people that go to Jita are at fault. Hence the commonly heard outcry, "Don't go to Jita!" --- Originally by: VJ Maverick Jita is closed on Sundays. It's a holy day.
Eulalinda Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.26 11:10:00 - [14] Originally by: Jakus Cemendur CCP are looking into making the server a supercomputer to help improve performance.... Link? I've read this claim over and over but never from a mod, GM or dev.
Jakus Cemendur Caldari The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.11.26 11:12:00 - [15] It was linked earlier: Quote: As mentioned at Fanfest we are looking at a HPC based cluster and the improvements this will provide. Not much we can do till then, we have upgraded and modified Jita, but everytime we do more people go there so we need to do something else. Dev reply
Eulalinda Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.26 11:24:00 - [16] Edited by: Eulalinda on 26/11/2007 11:24:34 Originally by: Jakus Cemendur It was linked earlier: Quote: As mentioned at Fanfest we are looking at a HPC based cluster and the improvements this will provide. Not much we can do till then, we have upgraded and modified Jita, but everytime we do more people go there so we need to do something else. Dev reply Exactly. "We are looking" not "We are doing". If my friend says "we are looking" at a Lamborghini Diablo I do not assume his family is buying and using it. Is there any evidence that CCP is actually implementing a super computer, or is it a rumor?
Gawster	Posted - 2007.11.26 11:35:00 - [17] As other ppl have said before in these type of threads. If they fix it so 500 ppl can be there lagg free, then 700 ppl will come and it will lagg. If they fix it for the 700, more will still come. So it have been a neverending circle of lagg no matter what they have done.
Cepha Lopod Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.26 11:41:00 - [18] Originally by: Error404 That's all anyone says is don't go Jita but tbh it's the trade centre i have to go there and really why not just ***** delete Jita from the game if noone should go there? ***** Moron community or what. I somehow suspect New Caldari taking Jitas place tbh...
Armoured C Gallente Globaltech Industries Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2007.11.26 11:45:00 - [19] your forgetting if jita get dumped it will just be some poor system there will always be a jita even when there isnt one left :P you are doomed to stay docked at JITA try going on when there not that many people on that sure cure it
Dark Flare Caldari StateCorp	Posted - 2007.11.26 11:54:00 - [20] Jesus wept, would people stop making stupid threads going "JITA HAS LAG OMG FIX IT CCP ;_;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;" It's a well known fact that Jita is rather laggy. However, I call BS on you getting stuck there, I've been in and out of Jita twice in the last few days. Just don't go there, or stop whining about it. I'd like to see you come up with an intelligent fix to the problem that doesn't involve "LOL Y U NOT JUST THROW MOAR HARDWARE AT IT".
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.11.26 12:01:00 - [21] Originally by: Error404 i have to go there Pssst... your fail is showing.
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2007.11.26 12:33:00 - [22] Originally by: Error404 That's all anyone says is don't go Jita but tbh it's the trade centre i have to go there and really why not just ***** delete Jita from the game if noone should go there? ***** Moron community or what. If you have to go there understanding its condition, this is the price you have to pay! Just as the price for doing PvP can being sent home in a pod or a clone! Its your choice to do PvP (mostly) as its your choice to go to Jita. No matter what CCP do there will be lag there, since tbfh theres no large enough computer available - superduper or not - that could handle thousands or tens of thousands or heck! Even a hundred thousand! Which we will be facing - and are facing - each time more modern computers hits the market and CCP upgrades. Why? Because more people are going there! So if you cant handle the lag, stay out of it! And if you still go there, at least keep quiet about it, because you have been warned, and we dont really need post number one trillion billion on this topic. PS: There are many other systems which are relatively lag free and a hub system, if not as large as Jita. Many of them close by Jita itself! Sarah McTeef: You all should really try and stay on topic. Which when I last checked, was my grocery list
Twilight Moon Minmatar Malicious Intentions The Church.	Posted - 2007.11.26 12:37:00 - [23] I don't know what all the fuss is about tbh. Yeah, its a bit laggy, but no-where near as bad as a 0.0 blob fight. You can still at least get your buying and selling done in a reasonable amount of time. New siggeh required!
Raneru Darwin With Attitude oooh Shiny	Posted - 2007.11.26 12:44:00 - [24] Edited by: Raneru on 26/11/2007 12:44:31 Edited by: Raneru on 26/11/2007 12:43:58 Don't go to Jita at weekends during peak times or you'll never get out. Failing that, treat Jita like a fleet battle. Zoom all the way out, minimise chat channels, close overview, effects off, etc. Doing all that really speeds up the undocking process in Jita.
Argyle Jones Minmatar Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.26 12:49:00 - [25] Assuming that if you keep increasing the capacity of Jita, then more people will go there is just plain dumb. According to that logic eventually all 37.000 online players would stay in Jita? CCP prides themselves with the fact that their game is a sandbox and that their content is developed as a reaction to the actions of the community. Well the community wants a trade hub in Jita, so CCP will continue to support that to the best of their ability, which I admit is not quite enough at the moment. So yes... Fix Jita. /Argle
Stitcher Caldari legion of qui Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.11.26 12:50:00 - [26] the curious thing about Jita is that people assume that because it's a "market hub" they HAVE to go there at some point. Never mind that Nonni, Sobaseki, Torrinos and Oimmo are all just around the corner, all have much of the same stuff on the market, often for cheaper, and are far less populated. Jita's lag is not caused by any technical failing on CCP's part - it's caused by the fact that people will insist on cramming themselves in there until it finally has to throw up its hands and say "I can't take any more!" The Jita market "Hub" could quite happily be spread out across the adjacent systmes tbh. - The game is not the problem. The problem is that you are not adapting to the game.
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2007.11.26 12:54:00 - [27] I got a good idea on how to fix Jita lag! 1. Remove Jita/make it 0.0/lowsec! 2. Point 1 wont solve Hub problem since there will always be a new one in time, but when a new one is beginning to take form CCP do Point 1 again to this system 3. When Point 2 happends again! Again Do point 1! Rinse and Repeat! 4. In time people will be so **ed that they will simply chuck their goods on the closest market! Bonus: No more Jita whines Price: **ed of people who finds their markets suddenly turned into deep space/lowsec! Boon: Desentralized market! Sarah McTeef: You all should really try and stay on topic. Which when I last checked, was my grocery list
Kjetilen	Posted - 2007.11.26 12:58:00 - [28] Rumors say mc migth take a contract aginst jita.
Riho Northen Breeze	Posted - 2007.11.26 13:04:00 - [29] Originally by: Error404 I mean the fix for Yulai wasn't to dump it on another system, i entered Jita and my game crashed, now i've been stuck there for 2 days with a blank screen and not been able to log the ** in.... Please FFS come upw ith a fix for Jita like erm how about not just having one center of trade on a 1980's server that can't even handle only 600 people logged into it. first: HAAAAAHAHHAHHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA OWNED second: Jita cant be fixed... EVER.. only fix is to delete this system. and the OP should shut the f* up and read previos posts where smart ppl have pointed out why it cant be fixed.... but you will not likly do that so ill write it once more. Jita cant be fixed because when you add even more powerful hardware to the system(its already a system whit the mosst powerful server system behind it in eve.), more ppl will go there because it wount lagg at 600... now 1200 ppl are the... and the ***** clueless whine (like the OPs) will start all over again. its like a black hole for CCP... they add more servers to jita and the performance will increase... it would be only useful if only 600 ppl would go there... but not going to stay like that... CCP is doing the smart thing by ignoring customers atm.... because there is nothing to gain by adding more servers to that node... only more **s crying when they get stuck there. conclusion: your own *** fault u went there in the first place. there are alot better markets that are cheaper than jita and you can still buy all the stuff you need from there. yes faction stuff can be hard to come by in other places, but not likly you need uber faction stuff every day. moral of the story: DONT go to jita if you got a PC, DONT go to jita if you have ** ISP, DONT go to jita at all. i have gotten through whitout Jita for the past 2 years. PS: if anyone doesnt like my posting... well too bad.. im just sick of clueless ppl crying all the time. Mod: i know this post is bit offencive but i hope it wount get nerfed because it explains lot of stuff why Jita cant be fixed.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.11.26 13:05:00 - [30] Originally by: Error404 That's all anyone says is don't go Jita but tbh it's the trade centre i have to go there and really why not just ***** delete Jita from the game if noone should go there? ***** Moron community or what. You don't have to go there, there are other trade centers, and there are courier contracts. By the way, there are other trade centers. I do all of my loot selling / equipment buying in Dodixie, and I sometimes get equipment cheaper there, plus it never has any serious lag, while still being big enough to sucessfully trade in.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.26 13:10:00 - [31] Originally by: Argyle Jones Assuming that if you keep increasing the capacity of Jita, then more people will go there is just plain dumb. /Argle No it isn't. It's based on real-world experience of just about every field of endeavour. Any desirable resource is always oversubscribed. Roads, networks, salaries, intelligence, time, CPU processing power, electricity generation. It doesn't matter how much you increase the availability of any of these it will never be enough. Just because it's unlikely that the entire population would go to Jita at the same time is no reason to suppose that the current 700 to 800 are the only ones playing the game that do want to go there. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Mallikan Gallente Spartan Hoplites Rare Faction	Posted - 2007.11.26 13:17:00 - [32] Jita has become a hub. Plain and simple. IRL, New York and Los Angeles became similar hubs. People will always go there and nothing will change that really. There is no clear "fix" for making people not go somewhere. --- lol.. I messed up.
Riho Northen Breeze	Posted - 2007.11.26 13:17:00 - [33] Originally by: Eulalinda Edited by: Eulalinda on 26/11/2007 11:24:34 Originally by: Jakus Cemendur It was linked earlier: Quote: As mentioned at Fanfest we are looking at a HPC based cluster and the improvements this will provide. Not much we can do till then, we have upgraded and modified Jita, but everytime we do more people go there so we need to do something else. Dev reply Exactly. "We are looking" not "We are doing". If my friend says "we are looking" at a Lamborghini Diablo I do not assume his family is buying and using it. Is there any evidence that CCP is actually implementing a super computer, or is it a rumor? dont post... you have no idea what u talking about... the solution they are thinking about is god damn expencive and quite hard to implement. They cant just jump on things like that.. because if that doesnt work it can hurt the game bad that it comes unplayable. + eve server atm can be called a supercomputer allready.. it should be in the top 500 super computers in the world atm allso.(i havent checked that list for a while now.. so i might be lieing atm.)
StarStryder Wise Guys Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.11.26 13:49:00 - [34] Originally by: Andrue No it isn't. It's based on real-world experience of just about every field of endeavour. Any desirable resource is always oversubscribed. Roads, networks, salaries, intelligence, time, CPU processing power, electricity generation. It doesn't matter how much you increase the availability of any of these it will never be enough. And what happens when demand increases without an equal supply increase? Price goes up. So I'm going to throw out an idea that just occurred to me. It may or may not be a good but here you go: Vary the tax rate on the market dynamically based on system population. This would make it harder to sell things in a system as the population in increases, forcing sellers to expand out to the bordering systems to get the lower tax rates. Is there a down side to this that anyone can see?
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.26 13:56:00 - [35] Originally by: StarStryder Originally by: Andrue No it isn't. It's based on real-world experience of just about every field of endeavour. Any desirable resource is always oversubscribed. Roads, networks, salaries, intelligence, time, CPU processing power, electricity generation. It doesn't matter how much you increase the availability of any of these it will never be enough. And what happens when demand increases without an equal supply increase? Price goes up. So I'm going to throw out an idea that just occurred to me. It may or may not be a good but here you go: Vary the tax rate on the market dynamically based on system population. This would make it harder to sell things in a system as the population in increases, forcing sellers to expand out to the bordering systems to get the lower tax rates. Is there a down side to this that anyone can see? I have a feeling that it would create inflation but I confess that I'd like to see it discussed by experts. My own idea is just to have a form of congestion charging at gates. A while back I came up with a scheme that would allow for tweaking using skills and create a market for passes (so you could buy a day- or week- pass). But I'm still skeptical about how well any of this will work. There is a huge social pressure to form hubs and you generally have to go to extremes to counteract this. Even schemes like London's congestion charge only reduce the problem slightly. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
StarStryder Wise Guys Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.11.26 13:58:00 - [36] Edited by: StarStryder on 26/11/2007 13:58:17 Originally by: Andrue Originally by: StarStryder And what happens when demand increases without an equal supply increase? Price goes up. So I'm going to throw out an idea that just occurred to me. It may or may not be a good but here you go: Vary the tax rate on the market dynamically based on system population. This would make it harder to sell things in a system as the population in increases, forcing sellers to expand out to the bordering systems to get the lower tax rates. Is there a down side to this that anyone can see? I have a feeling that it would create inflation but I confess that I'd like to see it discussed by experts. My own idea is just to have a form of congestion charging at gates. A while back I came up with a scheme that would allow for tweaking using skills and create a market for passes (so you could buy a day- or week- pass). But I'm still skeptical about how well any of this will work. There is a huge social pressure to form hubs and you generally have to go to extremes to counteract this. Even schemes like London's congestion charge only reduce the problem slightly. Andrue for London Mayor!
6Bagheera9 Slacker Industries	Posted - 2007.11.26 14:01:00 - [37] And people wonder why I got to Amarr to shop...
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.11.26 14:17:00 - [38] Originally by: 6Bagheera9 And people wonder why I got to Amarr to shop... I shop there to see Chribba ============================================
Sathenu	Posted - 2007.11.26 14:22:00 - [39] Yes Jita is a trade main hub, everyone knows...if you want something cheap go to jita..tbh I try and avoid jita, I'll pay the extra 2-3mil on some items... The local in jita is spammed far too much and it should be a ban-able offense. Simply limit the amount of sellers on market, other sellers can then spread out around and past jita. Plus any sensible seller will sell items nearer 0.0 entry points at the same price as jita, they will make a healthy profit ...oopss I;ve given teh game away...
Hungo Minmatar Nightfallz	Posted - 2007.11.26 14:24:00 - [40] Originally by: Error404 I mean the fix for Yulai wasn't to dump it on another system, i entered Jita and my game crashed, now i've been stuck there for 2 days with a blank screen and not been able to log the **** in.... Please FFS come upw ith a fix for Jita like erm how about not just having one center of trade on a 1980's server that can't even handle only 600 people logged into it. Im sorry but all these people who say jita wont elt me log back in i can go in and out of jita. log out and back in with no problems, try playing eve on decent machines and for thsoe who will give me the smartass my pc is top notch if u lag liek hell in jita nd your buffer goes mad, your pc is crap
Robert0288	Posted - 2007.11.26 14:32:00 - [41] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker I got a good idea on how to fix Jita lag! 1. Remove Jita/make it 0.0/lowsec! 2. Point 1 wont solve Hub problem since there will always be a new one in time, but when a new one is beginning to take form CCP do Point 1 again to this system 3. When Point 2 happends again! Again Do point 1! Rinse and Repeat! 4. In time people will be so **ed that they will simply chuck their goods on the closest market! Bonus: No more Jita whines Price: **ed of people who finds their markets suddenly turned into deep space/lowsec! Boon: Desentralized market! All fine and good up untill the day after it goes 0.0 Can you say uber blob trying to get everyone thats trying to run away?lol Clay pigeon shoot
Aldee Federated Holdings	Posted - 2007.11.26 14:39:00 - [42] I know why ppl use to go to Jita but I got no idea why anymore. I use an alt to check prices there from outside of Jita system and the prices are almost always more expensive then what I buy at my local hub.
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.11.26 14:50:00 - [43] I think a good way of decentralising trade would be to make empire ganking of haulers easier. The supply chain is like this: Moons (mining, reactions) > local T2 manifacture > haul long distance to Jita. You make hauling more dangerous somehow (I know there was an 'add 0.3 space between empires' idea), and people wont haul that great dangerous distance to Jita. They haul a shorter and therefore safer distance to a closer Hub; Amarr for example. Also people buying wont find it so safe to get to Jita, for the same reasons as the haulers. ============================================
Taedrin Gallente Magellan Exploration and Survey Rare Faction	Posted - 2007.11.26 14:50:00 - [44] Here's a Jita fix for you! Just start randomly deleting characters in any system that has become overloaded! Fixes Jita AND fleet battles! It's a win-win situation, I say!
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2007.11.26 14:56:00 - [45] i dont even go to caldari space these days, mission running systems are very bad and jita is mostly impossible. only time ive been there this year was to pick up some faction bits for my carrier that i couldnt get anywhere else i bought them in regoin then waited till after down time to pop in grab em and go. jita is a lag hell hole atm, as 99% of people hav sed simply dont go there, and if you hav to make sure its not 6pm game time on a sunday lol
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.11.26 15:17:00 - [46] Originally by: 6Bagheera9 And people wonder why I got to Amarr to shop... Shopping in Oris saves you time, pain, hassle, and makes Raptor Jesus happy. Jita can get bent.
Kolwrath Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2007.11.26 15:31:00 - [47] Originally by: Error404 I mean the fix for Yulai wasn't to dump it on another system, i entered Jita and my game crashed, now i've been stuck there for 2 days with a blank screen and not been able to log the ** in.... Please FFS come upw ith a fix for Jita like erm how about not just having one center of trade on a 1980's server that can't even handle only 600 people logged into it. 1. Petition a GM to move you out of Jita. 2. Don't log out in Jita, ever. 3. Don't be a Troll. Originally by:** Chaos Space Marines Do you hear the voices, too?!?!
Obidom Jax	Posted - 2007.11.26 15:33:00 - [48] LOL i didnt read most of this post as i couldnt stop laughing long enough I am still puzzled by what teh problem with jita is I have been through jita on numerous occasions, apart from slight dleay in loading sector (less than 60 seconds) i have not noticed any problems Why does everyone trade in Jita anyway? Am i missiong something other than the CN Scourge missles that are on sale for 1Bill ISK each? (yeah RMT are Soooooooo Stupid)
Venko Trenulo Wakizashi Renaissance	Posted - 2007.11.26 15:40:00 - [49] Edited by: Venko Trenulo on 26/11/2007 15:41:53 Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto There is no reason to go to Jita Besides the obvious reasons, there are these: (1) There's no way to get to Maurasi and the rest of its cluster without going through Jita. Agents do assign courier missions to those systems. (2) The dev response said that CCP's contribution is showing us where there are congested systems. However, the autopilot doesn't have an option for "Avoid systems with a traffic advisory." We shouldn't have to pull up the map to see whether Jita is on the list, and if it is, there should be an easy way to route around it. CCP can and should do a few more things to fix it, like providing another route to Maurasi or one of its cluster, and by "Avoid systems with a traffic advisory." That's assuming traffic advisories are now correctly reported, ofc.
Lala Ru Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.26 16:13:00 - [50] An easy eay to fix Jita is to offer free or low cost delivery. Say, that if you are in a high-sec station, buying something from another high-sec station three jumps away or less, that for a modest 1% surcharge, the friendly NPCs will deliver the items to your station. That way, people won't have to actually be IN Jita to buy from Jita, and so the load will become spread out around the systems surrounding Jita.
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.26 16:30:00 - [51] Originally by: Kolwrath Originally by: Error404 I mean the fix for Yulai wasn't to dump it on another system, i entered Jita and my game crashed, now i've been stuck there for 2 days with a blank screen and not been able to log the **** in.... Please FFS come upw ith a fix for Jita like erm how about not just having one center of trade on a 1980's server that can't even handle only 600 people logged into it. 1. Petition a GM to move you out of Jita. 2. Don't log out in Jita, ever. 3. Don't be a Troll. I find it unbelievable that so many players will simply accept the fact that the game is broken rather than protesting. Your solution to the problem of Jita is "don't go there"? If that's the only way to fix it, the game is broken. Period. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.26 16:31:00 - [52] Jita does not lag, it is actually time distortion caused by an IBH (intelligence blackhole) The laws of quantum stupidity clearly state that stupidity has the most mass of anything in the universe, when confined into such a small space the excess mass causes a blackhole to form and slows down everything around it. Jita has become a magnet for such dense people and attracts them in the same way a regular blackhole affects regular matter. In sumation, do not be a lemming. Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Jakus Cemendur Caldari The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.11.26 16:37:00 - [53] Originally by: Xaen I find it unbelievable that so many players will simply accept the fact that the game is broken rather than protesting. Your solution to the problem of Jita is "don't go there"? If that's the only way to fix it, the game is broken. Period. Or perhpas they've read the dev posts which say they're looking into it(eg. with the possible supercomputer etc.), and they're suggesting realistic solutions for players in the short term whilst we wait for the devs to do whatever they are planning.
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.26 16:42:00 - [54] Originally by: Jakus Cemendur Originally by: Xaen I find it unbelievable that so many players will simply accept the fact that the game is broken rather than protesting. Your solution to the problem of Jita is "don't go there"? If that's the only way to fix it, the game is broken. Period. Or perhpas they've read the dev posts which say they're looking into it(eg. with the possible supercomputer etc.), and they're suggesting realistic solutions for players in the short term whilst we wait for the devs to do whatever they are planning. They've been "looking into it" for what, a year? If I were only "looking into" a problem of Jita-severity here at work for a month I'd be fired. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Jakus Cemendur Caldari The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.11.26 16:43:00 - [55] They've already upgraded the hardware and made software changes, but more and more people keep on going into Jita. From what the devs have said the only solution will be something like making the server into a supercomputer, which ian't going to be quick or easy.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.26 16:46:00 - [56] Please do not feed the troll (unless its me) Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.26 16:50:00 - [57] Edited by: Esmenet on 26/11/2007 16:50:30 Originally by: Xaen They've been "looking into it" for what, a year? If I were only "looking into" a problem of Jita-severity here at work for a month I'd be fired. Well noone is forcing you to go there, and noone is forcing you to play the game. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected])
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.11.26 16:53:00 - [58] When will people stop posting about this? If you're stuck, you need to be petitioning, not whining on the forums. Join MacroIntel!
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2007.11.26 16:55:00 - [59] Originally by: Robert0288 Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker I got a good idea on how to fix Jita lag! 1. Remove Jita/make it 0.0/lowsec! 2. Point 1 wont solve Hub problem since there will always be a new one in time, but when a new one is beginning to take form CCP do Point 1 again to this system 3. When Point 2 happends again! Again Do point 1! Rinse and Repeat! 4. In time people will be so **ed that they will simply chuck their goods on the closest market! Bonus: No more Jita whines Price: **ed of people who finds their markets suddenly turned into deep space/lowsec! Boon: Desentralized market! All fine and good up untill the day after it goes 0.0 Can you say uber blob trying to get everyone thats trying to run away?lol Clay pigeon shoot Absolutely! But thats part of the plan (read: fun) though, since after a while people will start shunning systems with more then hundred people in it, since they dont want to log in to find themselves in deep space! Can you say human decentralization? Sarah McTeef: You all should really try and stay on topic. Which when I last checked, was my grocery list
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.26 17:01:00 - [60] Originally by: Snake Doctor When will people stop posting about this? If you're stuck, you need to be petitioning, not whining on the forums. Probably shortly after it's fixed. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.11.26 17:12:00 - [61] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Snake Doctor When will people stop posting about this? If you're stuck, you need to be petitioning, not whining on the forums. Probably shortly after it's fixed. The only way to fix it is to stop going. It's a hardware issue. Players push the hardware well beyond the limits and expect a miracle. Do you really think the RAMSAN and all other recent upgrades went to anything other than Jita? No. They are fixing Jita, but there's only so fast the hardware will go. That's what this stupid need for speed **** is anyway. It's a Jita fix, but everyone sits around and whines about something they have the power to avoid. You get better prices in Rens anyway. JFC go there. Join MacroIntel!
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.26 17:15:00 - [62] Originally by: Venko Trenulo (1) There's no way to get to Maurasi and the rest of its cluster without going through Jita. Agents do assign courier missions to those systems. This is a big one. They moved plenty of stargates around to stop requiring ships to go through Jita but left this one chain of systems. Of course its a nice place to hide during a war; camp the Jita gate coming in and most players will still be so lagged they are easy kills.... Why does the Autopilot still send you through Jita also? Each time I run between 2 of my homes one direction sends me through Jita but the return doesn't Originally by: CCP Chronotis Since this thread continues to fight against the people who derail it into the macro miners witchhunt. I will move it to features and ideas discussion where ...
Taedrin Gallente Magellan Exploration and Survey Rare Faction	Posted - 2007.11.26 17:39:00 - [63] Be careful what you wish for. A solution which "fixes" Jita would probably involve reducing the number of people in Jita. The only way to do that is to make Jita less attractive compared to other systems. This may make solutions infinitely worse than the current problem. Fortunately for us, CCP is working on the problem in a manner which won't hurt the player-base so much. CCP is trying to figure out a way to implement RDMA. Depending upon the implementation, this would effectively allow multiple nodes to work on a single system. When ambulation happens, people who are docked and messing with the market will be offloaded onto another node dedicated/optimized towards in-station activities. This should help reduce lag in Jita because the main activities in Jita are done in-station Implementing Interbus is also on CCPs list of things-to-do. The idea here is that Interbus would, for a price, would do intra-constellation hauling. Thus all of the Jita congestion would be spread out through multiple solar systems. So why hasn't CCP done any of this yet? RDMA is tricky thing to implement. You have to worry about multiple nodes trying to access the same resources at the same time. You could end up with many, many exploitable bugs, such as receiving multiple insurance payouts for one ship death. On top of this, Infiniband isn't exactly cheap. As for ambulation, that requires a lot of programming from scratch, and requires more hardware. More than anything, time is required for this. CCP is somewhat wary of implementing Interbus, as this would potentially hurt player courier contracts - something which CCP wants to have. It could also have a negative impact on the market by making it harder for traders to buy low at market hubs, and sell high at mission running areas.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.26 17:52:00 - [64] I did'nt know that Jita was broken..... One stop shopping ftw!! although the fact that 0.5+ with valuable cargo is MORE dangerous than 0.0 with valuable cargo could probably use some fixing. Play nice while you butcher each other.
Gone'Postal Minmatar Vengeance 8 Interceptors	Posted - 2007.11.26 18:05:00 - [65] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Snake Doctor When will people stop posting about this? If you're stuck, you need to be petitioning, not whining on the forums. Probably shortly after it's fixed. You can't be F'in serious... If YOU go to Jita, YOUR part of the problem. Hell CCP are good, damn good at what they do, but meh... Without some serious $$$, There server cluster has reached max, (until load balancing(sp?)) comes into play anyways.. 600 People in 1 system, I'd love to see a Terminal server handle 600 users at the same time, HEll i'll even bring the marshmellows. \0/ CCP SlideShow Games \0/ "Eve" Proof that <1FPS games can still generate income.
fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.26 18:08:00 - [66] Edited by: fire 59 on 26/11/2007 18:08:47 Originally by: Horchan Originally by: Jakus Cemendur CCP are looking into making the server a supercomputer to help improve performance, but until then there is no quick or easy solution for Jita. They make hardware and software improvements so say 500 people can go there and 700 people go there. This. Every time they "fix" Jita so it's stable with more people in it, EVEN MORE people will go there, until so many people are there that it lags out again. This problem will never be solved until people get it through their thick skulls that CCP isn't at fault, the people that go to Jita are at fault. Hence the commonly heard outcry, "Don't go to Jita!" I was going to point and laugh at you for awhile but instead, i'll just point to the affore mentioned quote above http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bdd74kLxgGo
Kolwrath Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2007.11.26 18:14:00 - [67] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Kolwrath Originally by: Error404 I mean the fix for Yulai wasn't to dump it on another system, i entered Jita and my game crashed, now i've been stuck there for 2 days with a blank screen and not been able to log the **** in.... Please FFS come upw ith a fix for Jita like erm how about not just having one center of trade on a 1980's server that can't even handle only 600 people logged into it. 1. Petition a GM to move you out of Jita. 2. Don't log out in Jita, ever. 3. Don't be a Troll. I find it unbelievable that so many players will simply accept the fact that the game is broken rather than protesting. Your solution to the problem of Jita is "don't go there"? If that's the only way to fix it, the game is broken. Period. Try reading my post. Where did I say ""don't go there"? Oh I dident. Shesh you even quoted my full post and still got it wrong. Originally by: Chaos Space Marines Do you hear the voices, too?!?!
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.26 18:30:00 - [68] Originally by: Snake Doctor The only way to fix it is to stop going. That isn't a fix. It's the textbook definition of a workaround. Originally by: Snake Doctor It's a hardware issue. Players push the hardware well beyond the limits and expect a miracle. Such narrow thinking benefits no one. There are possible solutions, see my sig link for some examples. Originally by: Snake Doctor Do you really think the RAMSAN and all other recent upgrades went to anything other than Jita? No. Yes, they're to speed up database acess time for all of EVE. Lack of sharding necessitates a single DB, so it's almost required that it be running on the fastest thing they can find. Originally by: Snake Doctor They are fixing Jita, but there's only so fast the hardware will go. Throwing hardware at it is a temporary workaround. Not a fix. Originally by: Snake Doctor That's what this stupid need for speed ** is anyway. It's a Jita fix No it isn't. Evidence being the faster UI. That's hardly a jita fix. Originally by:** Snake Doctor , but everyone sits around and whines about something they have the power to avoid. We shouldn't have to avoid it. Originally by: Snake Doctor You get better prices in Rens anyway. JFC go there. Again, this is a workaround at best. If everyone went to Rens instead then Rens would simply become the new Jita. This is just squeezing the water baloon. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Shidhe Minmatar The Babylon5 Consortuim Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.26 18:41:00 - [69] The fix for Jita is not to fix Jita - take it out of protected status, and let it collapse more regularly. Trying to allow more over-centralisation is not a cure for over-centralisation.
fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.26 19:14:00 - [70] I don't see any reason why people don't shop somewhere else (gasp) . If you all huddle in the same spot, it's going to create total hell death lag and it is YOUR fault for constantly blobbing to the same system. The excuse is often well one person wouldn't nake a difference etc, but if alot of people thought like that and (gasp) traded in more than one location, it would share the load out. It's the same with the (insert swear word about genitals on head) who all huddle in the same mission system and them moan about the lag. I went to a dufferent agent of different quality and got hardly any lag (gasp) Botom line, they improve the servers and you stuff more blob in there, move you muppets http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bdd74kLxgGo
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.26 19:20:00 - [71] Originally by: fire 59 I don't see any reason why people don't shop somewhere else (gasp) . If you all huddle in the same spot, it's going to create total hell death lag and it is YOUR fault for constantly blobbing to the same system. The excuse is often well one person wouldn't nake a difference etc, but if alot of people thought like that and (gasp) traded in more than one location, it would share the load out. It's the same with the (insert swear word about genitals on head) who all huddle in the same mission system and them moan about the lag. I went to a dufferent agent of different quality and got hardly any lag (gasp) Botom line, they improve the servers and you stuff more blob in there, move you muppets Actually, the "botom"[sic] line is, change the game such that centralized markets are unnecessary (see the link in my sig for several examples). "Don't go to jita" is a workaround to a broken system, not a genuine solution. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Gone'Postal Minmatar Vengeance 8 Interceptors	Posted - 2007.11.26 19:26:00 - [72] Ok, Either A. Get a job at CCP and change it. B. Live with Jita and "put up" with the way CCP are dealing with it, and there time frames to fix, or not to fix the issue. Either way, DEV's have replyed to your linked post in your sig, Learn how to wait until CCP deal with it. \0/ CCP SlideShow Games \0/ "Eve" Proof that <1FPS games can still generate income.
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.26 19:36:00 - [73] Originally by: Gone'Postal Ok, Either A. Get a job at CCP and change it. I would consider it if they didn't require moving to Iceland. I hate the cold. Originally by: Gone'Postal B. Live with Jita and "put up" with the way CCP are dealing with it, and there time frames to fix, or not to fix the issue. Either way, DEV's have replyed to your linked post in your sig, So? When it's fixed, I'll stop pointing out that it's a problem. Originally by: Gone'Postal Learn how to wait until CCP deal with it. Nah, I choose option C), post constructive potential solutions and continue to tell fanbois that "don't go to Jita" is a workaround, and not a viable solution. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Xonkra Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.26 20:18:00 - [74] you are made of... Originally by: Illyria Ambri No matter how you want to say it.. it always sounds like frog clearing throat "Ve zurrendur, dunt schuut"
Jakus Cemendur Caldari The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.11.26 20:28:00 - [75] Originally by: Xaen Actually, the "botom"[sic] line is, change the game such that centralized markets are unnecessary (see the link in my sig for several examples). "Don't go to jita" is a workaround to a broken system, not a genuine solution. And if they don't want to implement any of your solutions because they do not like them? They've said they're not sure about Interbus because it might kill courier contracts, they don't want to make huge changes to gameplay you suggest. So what are we left with? Waiting until they do the supercomputer.
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.26 20:33:00 - [76] Originally by: Jakus Cemendur And if they don't want to implement any of your solutions because they do not like them? They've said they're not sure about Interbus because it might kill courier contracts, they don't want to make huge changes to gameplay you suggest. So what are we left with? Waiting until they do the supercomputer. If it's a choice between courier contracts and fixing jita, I vote fix jita. I would surmise that a percentage of courier contracts issues are because of Jita. Those that are left are a small price to pay for a game that works in every system IMO. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation	Posted - 2007.11.26 20:38:00 - [77] Jita lag perfect strikes the OP for pure hilarity. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head, To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed, To be my friends and special pets.
Thenoran Caldari Frontier Economics Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.11.26 20:39:00 - [78] Edited by: Thenoran on 26/11/2007 20:39:39 Jita can't be fixed because there is nothing actually wrong with it. CCP is not to blame, they can modify the server to hold 2000 people in Jita and when Tranq is up you will soon notice that 2500 will go in, after which it will lag again. CCP upgrades to 3000 and the next day 4000 people will go in. People keep going into Jita UNTIL it lags It...can't...be...fixed!
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.26 20:39:00 - [79] Originally by: Minerva Vulcan Jita lag perfect strikes the OP for pure hilarity. Jita lag strikes the game you like to play for apathetic failure. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Roche Pso Gallente Deltole Research Labs	Posted - 2007.11.26 20:43:00 - [80] Originally by: Obidom Jax LOL i didnt read most of this post as i couldnt stop laughing long enough I am still puzzled by what teh problem with jita is I have been through jita on numerous occasions, apart from slight dleay in loading sector (less than 60 seconds) i have not noticed any problems Same here, I go there sometimes, and never have any real issues at all. I dont even have a modern PC (Athlon 2000XP, 1.25GB and 9800Pro) so I dont understand what people are moaning about.
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.26 20:44:00 - [81] Originally by: Thenoran Edited by: Thenoran on 26/11/2007 20:39:39 Jita can't be fixed because there is nothing actually wrong with it. CCP is not to blame, they can modify the server to hold 2000 people in Jita and when Tranq is up you will soon notice that 2500 will go in, after which it will lag again. CCP upgrades to 3000 and the next day 4000 people will go in. People keep going into Jita UNTIL it lags It...can't...be...fixed! Changing the game to handle human behavior is infinitely easier than changing human behavior. Thus, the solution lies solely in CCP's hands. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation	Posted - 2007.11.26 20:52:00 - [82] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Minerva Vulcan Jita lag perfect strikes the OP for pure hilarity. Jita lag strikes the game you like to play for apathetic failure. Cry more. Just because you can't help but run into Jita like a lemming off a cliff knowing what's likely going to happen, doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the game. CCP has some of the finest hardware out there. They could do away with Jita as a whole. They could create more routes to try and divert traffic to another system, but the same thing will just happen again. A new convenient spot will pop up as prime realestate and it will be the same thing all over. There's plenty other places you can do to find goods. Plenty of other people manage to never have to set pod in the place. I've been there and through a couple times myself, and never had any of these issues that people are constantly complaining about. Guess if you're smart about it there's no issue. If you're not, you make threads like these or agree with them. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head, To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed, To be my friends and special pets.
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.26 21:02:00 - [83] Originally by: Minerva Vulcan Cry more. Just because you can't help but run into Jita like a lemming off a cliff knowing what's likely going to happen, doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the game. I avoid it most of the time, but that doesn't mean everything is peachy. Originally by: Minerva Vulcan CCP has some of the finest hardware out there. Irrelevant. Originally by: Minerva Vulcan They could do away with Jita as a whole. They could create more routes to try and divert traffic to another system, but the same thing will just happen again. A new convenient spot will pop up as prime realestate and it will be the same thing all over. That's exactly what I just said. Changing human behavior is impossible, thus the fix must be in the game. Originally by: Minerva Vulcan There's plenty other places you can do to find goods. Plenty of other people manage to never have to set pod in the place. I've been there and through a couple times myself, and never had any of these issues that people are constantly complaining about. So why are you arguing? Originally by: Minerva Vulcan Guess if you're smart about it there's no issue. The issue exists whether or not it affects you personally. Originally by: Minerva Vulcan If you're not, you make threads like these or agree with them. So if everyone ignores the problem, it ceases to become a problem? You may have discovered a new form of fallacy. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Ed Anger Weekly World News	Posted - 2007.11.26 21:03:00 - [84] limited berths at each station. so no more then 50 ships docked at once, force the population to go somewhere other then jita 4-4 now and then.
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.26 21:10:00 - [85] The only thing wrong with Jita is the players. The only thing wrong with the product is the users. The only problem in business is the customers. Anyone else seeing the relation and utter fail in these three comments? Saying "Don't go to Jita" is akin to saying "Don't form fleets of over 200 people." So long as it is beneficial to do these things people will continue to do them, it is CCP's job to either provide an alternative or fix the problem which is exactly what they are trying to do. Blaming the players for doing these things, or being unhappy about the state of them, is pretty short-sighted. Customer discontent provides pressure for the provider to fix the issue, the alternative is we all STFU and ignore everything that is, or ever will be, wrong with the game until it becomes nigh unplayable. -------- EVE Trinity: THE SKY IS FALLING!
Ed Anger Weekly World News	Posted - 2007.11.26 21:14:00 - [86] yes, STFU already
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation	Posted - 2007.11.26 21:15:00 - [87] So if 700 people decided to self-destruct their ships daily, it would be on CCP to fix? Interesting. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head, To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed, To be my friends and special pets.
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.26 21:29:00 - [88] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf The only thing wrong with Jita is the players. The only thing wrong with the product is the users. The only problem in business is the customers. Anyone else seeing the relation and utter fail in these three comments? Saying "Don't go to Jita" is akin to saying "Don't form fleets of over 200 people." So long as it is beneficial to do these things people will continue to do them, it is CCP's job to either provide an alternative or fix the problem which is exactly what they are trying to do. Blaming the players for doing these things, or being unhappy about the state of them, is pretty short-sighted. Customer discontent provides pressure for the provider to fix the issue, the alternative is we all STFU and ignore everything that is, or ever will be, wrong with the game until it becomes nigh unplayable. Finally, someone else gets it. As long as the game requires that you travel to a station to get stuff, there will be a Jita and it will be death by lagicide. Hoping players simply stop congregating is about as effective as hoping it snows in the Sahara. Thus, the burden of implementing a solution falls on CCP's shoulders. No one else is going to do it for them. The best we players can do is offer suggestions coughSeeTheLinkInMySigcough. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Ed Anger Weekly World News	Posted - 2007.11.26 21:33:00 - [89] omg, what was i saying, you are correct. please post 50,000 MORE FRIGGIN JITA THREADS when 50,000 already exist. and keep going to Jita on Sunday prime time so you have something to whine about, lemmings. rather then using a minute amount of common sense, and going at another time.
Boomershoot Caldari Insurgent New Eden Tribe Deus Ex.	Posted - 2007.11.26 21:35:00 - [90] Pro Jita Accountant are all in perimeter/new caldari laughing at you stop whining Originally by: 'CCP Nozh' We did not expect the requests to prematurely end dear Zulupark's existence in this universe, some of which were very imaginative
Cipher7 VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.26 21:40:00 - [91] The solution for Jita is not to respond to stuck petitions. Those people will eventually quit the game, raising the overall IQ of the playerbase. Through Darwinism, fewer people will go to Jita.
Fester Addams Minmatar	Posted - 2007.11.26 21:43:00 - [92] I was not aware that Jita was broken. I pass through Jita every few days or so and while it may lag a tad its not a big issue...
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.26 21:46:00 - [93] Originally by: Cipher7 The solution for Jita is not to respond to stuck petitions. Those people will eventually quit the game, raising the overall IQ of the playerbase. Through Darwinism, fewer people will go to Jita. And eventually EVE will no longer have players! Fantastic idea! -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.26 21:48:00 - [94] Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 26/11/2007 21:53:18 Originally by: Minerva Vulcan So if 700 people decided to self-destruct their ships daily, it would be on CCP to fix? Interesting. Fix what? They wanted to blow up their ship, it blew up. Working as intended. Also: Staw-man lrn2argue -------- EVE Trinity: THE SKY IS FALLING!
Mark Lucius The Vinlanders SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.26 21:58:00 - [95] Originally by: Fester Addams I was not aware that Jita was broken. I pass through Jita every few days or so and while it may lag a tad its not a big issue... Truth. Originally by: Minerva Vulcan So if 700 people decided to self-destruct their ships daily, it would be on CCP to fix? Interesting. Exactly, free will. Just like going somewhere in Eve. Working as intended. Good point! --- Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
victim 1034378	Posted - 2007.11.26 21:59:00 - [96] Originally by: Error404 I mean the fix for Yulai wasn't to dump it on another system, The fix was ill conceived and was probably followed by much facepalm, and I shoulda seen that coming from CCP when Jita started to develop. Jita is a player made problem. You can one of the many that have solved the jita problem by realizing that there are other systems that sell stuff for darn near the same price and only average 200-400 people!!!
Thenoran Caldari Frontier Economics Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.11.26 22:26:00 - [97] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Thenoran Edited by: Thenoran on 26/11/2007 20:39:39 Jita can't be fixed because there is nothing actually wrong with it. CCP is not to blame, they can modify the server to hold 2000 people in Jita and when Tranq is up you will soon notice that 2500 will go in, after which it will lag again. CCP upgrades to 3000 and the next day 4000 people will go in. People keep going into Jita UNTIL it lags It...can't...be...fixed! Changing the game to handle human behavior is infinitely easier than changing human behavior. Thus, the solution lies solely in CCP's hands. Problem is that whatever they give, the players will simply keep pouring into Jita until it lags again and again and again... An option would be to have CCP split all the market items Jita has to neighbouring systems to spread out the people a bit, but people would have to stick to it for that to work.
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.26 22:32:00 - [98] Originally by: Thenoran Problem is that whatever they give, the players will simply keep pouring into Jita until it lags again and again and again... An option would be to have CCP split all the market items Jita has to neighbouring systems to spread out the people a bit, but people would have to stick to it for that to work. You're still thinking of throwing resources at Jita. I'm talking about changing the game so that there's no benefit to going to a single system. To hell with courier contracts. I don't believe they're worth having broken systems in the game. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Gane Green Gallente Dominus Imperium	Posted - 2007.11.26 22:41:00 - [99] Easy Jita will be fixed in the year 2000. If God was a number he would be over 9,000!!!!!!!!!
Tellenta Gallente White-Noise Skunk-Works	Posted - 2007.11.26 22:46:00 - [100] Originally by: Gane Green Easy Jita will be fixed in the year 2000. But I party like its 1999
Pitt Bull Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.26 23:09:00 - [101] Don't really get the people who say "just don't go to jita" when everyone goes to Jita because the market is lively. Then people say make it 0.0, yeah good going idiots, take a lively market that works just fine (other than ridiculous lag every so often) and then destroy the market so you can make stealing from others easier... its funny how the majority in this thread collectively lower themselves to the mindset of a few common trolls.
Ancient Pistol	Posted - 2007.11.26 23:15:00 - [102] Seems obvious to me. Cap the # of pilots. Put wait queues on gates that connect to the impacted system. No game should knowingly allow me to take an action that will crash my client and prevent me from logging back in.
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2007.11.26 23:46:00 - [103] anyone moaning because he was stuck in jita for days, when a stuck petition is dealt with in minutes, shudnt really be allowed on the internet.
F90OEX	Posted - 2007.11.26 23:59:00 - [104] Jita is fine ..
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.27 00:33:00 - [105] Originally by: Ancient Pistol Seems obvious to me. Cap the # of pilots. Put wait queues on gates that connect to the impacted system. No game should knowingly allow me to take an action that will crash my client and prevent me from logging back in. Waiting in line is not fun. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.11.27 00:47:00 - [106] First: Don't log off there, that's part of the problem. Second: Go during the off hours and assuming your PC is fine you won't have anything more than a few seconds of lag. Third: More playing, less forum whining. ___________________________________________ 5% Mining Implants & 5% Manufacturing Implants *From 110M to 150M
Ancient Pistol	Posted - 2007.11.27 01:19:00 - [107] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Ancient Pistol Seems obvious to me. Cap the # of pilots. Put wait queues on gates that connect to the impacted system. No game should knowingly allow me to take an action that will crash my client and prevent me from logging back in. Waiting in line is not fun. So what? If I don't want to wait in line, I can go somewhere else instead. The difference is that at least the game would acknowledge the problem, instead of pretending it does not exist and allowing me to crash my client and get lagged out and stranded. My point is, the game should not let pilots into a system if the servers cannot handle the load. That's just stupid, and it can cause players, especially newbs, to quit EVE.
Verx Interis Amarr Aurora Security	Posted - 2007.11.27 01:37:00 - [108] Originally by: Mark Lucius Originally by: Fester Addams I was not aware that Jita was broken. I pass through Jita every few days or so and while it may lag a tad its not a big issue... Truth. Originally by: Minerva Vulcan So if 700 people decided to self-destruct their ships daily, it would be on CCP to fix? Interesting. Exactly, free will. Just like going somewhere in Eve. Working as intended. Good point! But then if those 700 people come on the forums and whine that they're losing money from self destructing their ships.... -----sig-starts-here------ I survived Armageddon Day. I'm just too lazy to put a picture of a nuke in here.
xJohnnyDx Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.27 01:39:00 - [109] My copy paste Jita whine thread response: Originally by: xJohnnyDx The following facts are all a given. I haven't heard any significant argument against them: 1 - Jita is the best system equipped to handle a market hub. It's got it's own node for Christ sakes. 2 - Putting any changes in place that will stop Jita from being a market hub will simply cause another to form in its place. Those two facts combined make a pretty good reason to change nothing at all, in my eyes. No matter what happens, if Jita stops being a market hub, the new market hub will cause lag with all the other systems on the node, whereas when Jita lags, it has no effect elsewhere. If I am misunderstanding how nodes and Jita work, I'll gladly stand corrected, but I've never heard anything to the contrary. PLACE SIGNATURE HERE What?! [Insert event here] happened? Quick, start a new thread on the forums! "Moot", not "mute".
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.11.27 02:43:00 - [110] I love the cries of 'Fix Jita'. It's like someone put idiocy through a Rorqual. While I can understand being annoyed at Jita and lacking either the education or intellect to understand what causes it, the idea that a software system is actually broken if it slows down as it is forced to deal with greater data throughput is absolutely phenomenal. If only one of these people would inadvertently suggest how one can design a system which handles operations which probably currently have time complexity in the area of O(n^2) in constant time for any n, I could steal the design and become rich. Also, relevant. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Shakuul Caldari O RLY corp YTMND.	Posted - 2007.11.27 02:43:00 - [111] "Don't go into jita" is a ridiculous solution. Its akin to responding to the claim "Aspect X of EVE is unplayable/unusable" with "Well then don't do it." For example: "fleet combat is laggy/sucks because of desync issues", "well then don't engage in fleet combat." "blueprints in shuttles are impossible to find", "well then don't put blueprints in shuttles." These responses are unproductive, since they are basically a "love it or leave it" mentality with EVE. Whats wrong with asking for change? If the request is well meaning (ie not a whine), productive discussion can occur.
Eval B'Stard Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.11.27 02:55:00 - [112] Originally by: Shakuul "Don't go into jita" is a ridiculous solution. Its akin to responding to the claim "Aspect X of EVE is unplayable/unusable" with "Well then don't do it." For example: "fleet combat is laggy/sucks because of desync issues", "well then don't engage in fleet combat." "blueprints in shuttles are impossible to find", "well then don't put blueprints in shuttles." These responses are unproductive, since they are basically a "love it or leave it" mentality with EVE. Whats wrong with asking for change? If the request is well meaning (ie not a whine), productive discussion can occur. I would agree with you if there we no other systems around the area that could do exactly the same thing as Jita in exactly the same way, there are 1000's of systems in EVE why does everyone have to trade in just 1 of them ? Spread it out, sort it out !! Simple and effective. ------------------------------------------- When we gonna see the 40km and 80km tractor beams ?
Devian 666 Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.27 02:56:00 - [113] Originally by: Shakuul "Don't go into jita" is a ridiculous solution. Its akin to responding to the claim "Aspect X of EVE is unplayable/unusable" with "Well then don't do it." For example: "fleet combat is laggy/sucks because of desync issues", "well then don't engage in fleet combat." "blueprints in shuttles are impossible to find", "well then don't put blueprints in shuttles." These responses are unproductive, since they are basically a "love it or leave it" mentality with EVE. Whats wrong with asking for change? If the request is well meaning (ie not a whine), productive discussion can occur. You are correct people jumping into Jita should be correctly classified. The people in Jita are actively attacking the Jita node for the purpose of making it crash and are therefore exploiters. Simple solution is to ban these Jita Exploiters. Now it's time to be serious rather than pander to the stupidity in this thread. Jita is suffering from the same issue that roading does. If you build better roads more people use them. The roads go to capacity and you have to improve and expand the roads. Now that the roads work better even more people use them. Jita is the same. The more people the server can handle the more people that go there. This is also compounded by idiots that are unaware of the other trade centres which in many cases have better prices. Some of the proposed ideas to change the market interface and the delivery of goods may help remove the concept of highly centralised trade centres. Throwing more hardware at the problem won't make Jita any better. Also if CCP stop people from jumping into Jita by imposing limits on the number of people in there there will just be another idiotic thread complaining about that. All the people complaining about Jita should learn how to think for themselves. We almost won. [ 2007.11.17 08:26:19 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your 150mm Railgun II places an excellent hit on Shrike [EVOL]<BOB>(Avatar), inflicting 41.4 damage.
xJohnnyDx Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.27 03:04:00 - [114] Edited by: xJohnnyDx on 27/11/2007 03:05:47 Eval B'stard - It all comes down to convenience. It might not be important to you, but it's important to people like me that need to buy 50 separate items, some in bulk amounts. I'd rather not move my frieghter or hauler to ten different systems trying to find everything at a good price. Shakuul - It's ridiculous to think that CCP isn't working on a fix to optimize all systems, including Jita. They've fixed it at least two or three times that I know of, which shows that they know it lags, and their doing everything in their power to make it as bearable as possible. Edit - Typos PLACE SIGNATURE HERE What?! [Insert event here] happened? Quick, start a new thread on the forums! "Moot", not "mute".
Eval B'Stard Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.11.27 03:18:00 - [115] Originally by: xJohnnyDx Edited by: xJohnnyDx on 27/11/2007 03:05:47 Eval B'stard - It all comes down to convenience. It might not be important to you, but it's important to people like me that need to buy 50 separate items, some in bulk amounts. I'd rather not move my frieghter or hauler to ten different systems trying to find everything at a good price. You want convenience you gotta pay the price.....and that price is lag, why should CCP have to keep bolstering up one system just because you can't be arsed to go a couple extra jumps ? If you need stuff in bulk that badly try putting up buy orders 1 or 2 systems outside Jita for reasonable prices, the goods will come to you then, won't take any longer than getting everything in Jita when you factor in the lag. ------------------------------------------- When we gonna see the 40km and 80km tractor beams ?
xJohnnyDx Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.27 03:28:00 - [116] Originally by: Eval B'Stard Originally by: xJohnnyDx Edited by: xJohnnyDx on 27/11/2007 03:05:47 Eval B'stard - It all comes down to convenience. It might not be important to you, but it's important to people like me that need to buy 50 separate items, some in bulk amounts. I'd rather not move my frieghter or hauler to ten different systems trying to find everything at a good price. You want convenience you gotta pay the price.....and that price is lag, why should CCP have to keep bolstering up one system just because you can't be arsed to go a couple extra jumps ? If you need stuff in bulk that badly try putting up buy orders 1 or 2 systems outside Jita for reasonable prices, the goods will come to you then, won't take any longer than getting everything in Jita when you factor in the lag. I think you misunderstand me. I have no problem with the lag. When I go in, I normally don't lag, but I know there's a chance I will. You'll never find me crying about it because I know I made the choice to go in there, it's not at all a necessity. I know I can't have my cake and eat it too. PLACE SIGNATURE HERE What?! [Insert event here] happened? Quick, start a new thread on the forums! "Moot", not "mute".
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.27 05:33:00 - [117] Originally by: Eval B'Stard I would agree with you if there we no other systems around the area that could do exactly the same thing as Jita in exactly the same way, there are 1000's of systems in EVE why does everyone have to trade in just 1 of them ? Spread it out, sort it out !! Simple and effective. Simple and nanve. A centralized market hub is essential to commerce. If the environment - in this case a game - does not provide it, players will naturally congregate and form one. Hence jita. Hoping people will just avoid Jita is about as productive as hoping gravity just stops. The only solution I can think of is to remove the need to physically congregate in one single place. We were doing it thousands of years ago and we're not about to stop. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Eval B'Stard Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.11.27 06:09:00 - [118] Originally by: Xaen Simple and nanve. A centralized market hub is essential to commerce. If the environment - in this case a game - does not provide it, players will naturally congregate and form one. Hence jita. Hoping people will just avoid Jita is about as productive as hoping gravity just stops. The only solution I can think of is to remove the need to physically congregate in one single place. We were doing it thousands of years ago and we're not about to stop. I'm not hoping people will avoid Jita I'm just saying it is as it is, it's only broken because the player base have broken it, why should CCP have to sort it out ? Go to Jita if you must but don't complain about the lag because it's only laggy due to everyone going there. Don't expect CCP to fix something that we broke. ------------------------------------------- When we gonna see the 40km and 80km tractor beams ?
Jennai The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.27 06:43:00 - [119] Originally by: Ancient Pistol Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Ancient Pistol Seems obvious to me. Cap the # of pilots. Put wait queues on gates that connect to the impacted system. No game should knowingly allow me to take an action that will crash my client and prevent me from logging back in. Waiting in line is not fun. So what? If I don't want to wait in line, I can go somewhere else instead. The difference is that at least the game would acknowledge the problem, instead of pretending it does not exist and allowing me to crash my client and get lagged out and stranded. My point is, the game should not let pilots into a system if the servers cannot handle the load. That's just stupid, and it can cause players, especially newbs, to quit EVE. they had the queues on at some point because Jita was crashing too much, and it was far worse than a laggy but non-crashing Jita. the queues are buggy and people would often get kicked back to the end neighboring systems lagged because they weren't equipped to deal with tons of people autopilot does not have a "go here but don't go through specified system" function so plotting a route around Jita is annoying dozens of people sitting in jump range of a gate is an obvious target for suicide smartbombers
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.27 08:40:00 - [120] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf The only thing wrong with Jita is the players. The only thing wrong with the product is the users. The only problem in business is the customers. Anyone else seeing the relation and utter fail in these three comments? Saying "Don't go to Jita" is akin to saying "Don't form fleets of over 200 people." So long as it is beneficial to do these things people will continue to do them, it is CCP's job to either provide an alternative or fix the problem which is exactly what they are trying to do. Blaming the players for doing these things, or being unhappy about the state of them, is pretty short-sighted. Customer discontent provides pressure for the provider to fix the issue, the alternative is we all STFU and ignore everything that is, or ever will be, wrong with the game until it becomes nigh unplayable. Finally, someone else gets it. Oh lots of people (including CCP) 'get it'. The only people that don't 'get it' are those claiming that more processing power will fix it. The problem is that no-one has come up with a real fix. Even those that have been proposed have downsides. Unfortunately solving this problem in RL usually involves annoying people since you are attacking their instinctive behaviour. People playing a game are a lot harder to annoy. If you succeed they quit the game but most likely they find someother way to do what you don't want. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Snowcrash Winterheart2 Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.11.27 08:53:00 - [121] Originally by: Eval B'Stard Don't expect CCP to fix something that we broke. You magnificent B'Stard you. Spot on. To be honest I've been through Jita on a Sunday and yeah... lag. Nothing like people have described but I see it as a necessary evil for a player created trade hub. We didn't break it, we smashed it good and proper... then nuked the still twitching corpse with a nerf bat. ----- Four paws... four sets of claws.
Shaemell Buttleson Darwin With Attitude oooh Shiny	Posted - 2007.11.27 09:40:00 - [122] Originally by: Eval B'Stard Originally by: Xaen Simple and nanve. A centralized market hub is essential to commerce. If the environment - in this case a game - does not provide it, players will naturally congregate and form one. Hence jita. Hoping people will just avoid Jita is about as productive as hoping gravity just stops. The only solution I can think of is to remove the need to physically congregate in one single place. We were doing it thousands of years ago and we're not about to stop. I'm not hoping people will avoid Jita I'm just saying it is as it is, it's only broken because the player base have broken it, why should CCP have to sort it out ? Go to Jita if you must but don't complain about the lag because it's only laggy due to everyone going there. Don't expect CCP to fix something that we broke. QFT and TBH I couldn't give a flying **** for the ppl moaning about it! [orange]snip Do not use your signature to troll or insult other EVE players snip - I somehow doubt Rauth put that :) Cortes yeah he did I promise! -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected]
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.27 10:00:00 - [123] Originally by: xJohnnyDx Shakuul - It's ridiculous to think that CCP isn't working on a fix to optimize all systems, including Jita. They've fixed it at least two or three times that I know of, which shows that they know it lags, and their doing everything in their power to make it as bearable as possible. Edit - Typos I'm not sure that your definition of 'fix' is the same as everyone else'. You don't fix a sinking ship by handing out another bucket. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Eulalinda Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.27 10:03:00 - [124] Originally by: Riho Originally by: Eulalinda Exactly. "We are looking" not "We are doing". If my friend says "we are looking" at a Lamborghini Diablo I do not assume his family is buying and using it. Is there any evidence that CCP is actually implementing a super computer, or is it a rumor? dont post... you have no idea what u talking about... (i havent checked that list for a while now.. so i might be lieing atm.) "Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."
Eulalinda Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.27 10:05:00 - [125] Edited by: Eulalinda on 27/11/2007 10:05:50 Originally by: Snake Doctor It's a hardware issue. Players push the hardware well beyond the limits and expect a miracle. Will the hardware ever be able to keep up with the players?
Eulalinda Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.27 10:08:00 - [126] Originally by: Fester Addams I was not aware that Jita was broken. I pass through Jita every few days or so and while it may lag a tad its not a big issue... To the extent that mods, devs and GMs warn players not to go through Jita on Sundays, it's broken. So if you believe that a mechanic telling you to NOT use your car means that the car is broken, then Jita is broken.
xJohnnyDx Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.27 10:12:00 - [127] Edited by: xJohnnyDx on 27/11/2007 10:14:36 Originally by: Andrue Originally by: xJohnnyDx Shakuul - It's ridiculous to think that CCP isn't working on a fix to optimize all systems, including Jita. They've fixed it at least two or three times that I know of, which shows that they know it lags, and their doing everything in their power to make it as bearable as possible. Edit - Typos I'm not sure that your definition of 'fix' is the same as everyone else'. You don't fix a sinking ship by handing out another bucket. You can fix anything until it reaches a greater breaking point. If I break my desk because my monitor is too heavy, then fix it so it support the monitor, should I get mad when it breaks again because I put an even heavier monitor on it? It was "fixed" multiple times to cope with the lag. Then, as the plethora of comments about this subject say, more people came in. There will never be anything that is a permanent fix. Even if they somehow managed to make the system able to handle 100,000 people, who's to say how many people will be cramming in there ten years from now? PLACE SIGNATURE HERE What?! [Insert event here] happened? Quick, start a new thread on the forums! "Moot", not "mute".
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.11.27 10:41:00 - [128] Jita is unfixable with the current game design. Super Computers, HAL 9000, Sky Net... doesn't matter. Players will simply keep going there until the new threshold is found. That isn't a theory. It's happened at least twice with Jita specifically. The only way to fix Jita is to redesign the game to encourage or force decentralization. Doesn't mean we can't have market hubs, just means the way we interact with them may need to change. ---- WSSH
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.27 14:12:00 - [129] Originally by: Eval B'Stard I'm not hoping people will avoid Jita I'm just saying it is as it is, it's only broken because the player base have broken it, why should CCP have to sort it out ? Go to Jita if you must but don't complain about the lag because it's only laggy due to everyone going there. Don't expect CCP to fix something that we broke. By that logic, a really long wait on the phone for customer support is the customer's fault for wanting support. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.27 14:15:00 - [130] Originally by: Eulalinda To the extent that mods, devs and GMs warn players not to go through Jita on Sundays, it's broken. So if you believe that a mechanic telling you to NOT use your car means that the car is broken, then Jita is broken. Exactly. It's not only broken, it's acknowledged to be broken by CCP, if implicitly. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
xJohnnyDx Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.27 15:01:00 - [131] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Eval B'Stard I'm not hoping people will avoid Jita I'm just saying it is as it is, it's only broken because the player base have broken it, why should CCP have to sort it out ? Go to Jita if you must but don't complain about the lag because it's only laggy due to everyone going there. Don't expect CCP to fix something that we broke. By that logic, a really long wait on the phone for customer support is the customer's fault for wanting support. That comparison is only accurate if 1) the product/service you are paying for offers less convenient, but equally good alternatives to itself, 2) the product/service is known worldwide to be of horribly low quality, at least at specific peak use times, 3) you knew exactly what you were getting before you paid for the product, and got it anyway. ISP A is offering a 30 down, 5 up, reliable connection with an excellent record of uptime and consistent speed. ISP B is offering 40 down, 7 up, slow at peak times connection, with a publicly viewable laundry list of complaints and few recommendations, who do you go with? In the end, no "real life" comparison works anyway. Jita is Jita, it won't be permanently "fixed" until it can handle multiple accounts from every person worldwide, otherwise, one day of lag is going to turn into another "omg fix Jita nownownow" whine. Again, Jita is a choice anyway, not one single person has to be there, so if someone chooses to be their, they chose to risk the lag to get what they wanted. PLACE SIGNATURE HERE What?! [Insert event here] happened? Quick, start a new thread on the forums! "Moot", not "mute".
Jolliejoe Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.27 15:03:00 - [132] I've had no problems getting in or out of jita in the last 5 tries covering the last couple of weeks. And this was also in the more busy times.
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.27 15:14:00 - [133] Originally by: Eulalinda Edited by: Eulalinda on 26/11/2007 10:19:10 ...And along comes the chorus of CCP disciples singing "Don't talk about Jita!" I agree. Jita needs fixed. Since you can't login, please file a stuck petition and a GM will promptly move you to a neighboring system. Originally by: Error404 Woah heres what i do when i play eve for 2 hours.... http://media.putfile.com/wooeveissoogreat lol CCP are actually quite respnsible for Jita. Before contracts we had escrow, now escrow was not a centralized system, and did not require your goods to be in a hub, to sell fast, as opposed to how contracts first worked. When Contracts were first tested on SISI, I wrote and many others did as well that because contracts didn't have a "search all eve" function - back then it didn't have for the first 3-4 months, it will lead to overcrowding of trading hubs and that such a feature should be implemented. Off-course they didn't listen, and 3-4 months later they snuck such an option in. GG CCP, don't listen to your testers, just like i-stabbs, those were a big hit. The other thing that they did that really increased the population of Jita, was nerfing privateers. The privateers nerf was just too heavy, it should have been less heavy. Laugh or not, but after they got nerfed, Jita exploded in population. My conclusion is that Jita was made what it is today by CCP, through some stupid decisions. All of the need for speed initiatives that they implemented were after these events, and though they did help, they didn't deacrease the rate at which the population of Jita is increasing, because it is increasing right now CCP. Rifter is not X-Wing CCP. Trinity model kinda sucks.
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.27 15:18:00 - [134] Originally by: xJohnnyDx That comparison is only accurate if 1) the product/service you are paying for offers less convenient, but equally good alternatives to itself, 2) the product/service is known worldwide to be of horribly low quality, at least at specific peak use times, 3) you knew exactly what you were getting before you paid for the product, and got it anyway. The comparison isn't the important part here. Originally by: xJohnnyDx In the end, no "real life" comparison works anyway. Ok, here's one that isn't real life: Back when I played WoW, there was tremendous lag in ironforge because everyone went there to use that auction house. The lag there was pretty insane. Later, Blizzard linked the auction houses of all the major cities. Now everyone uses all of them and none of them lag. Originally by: xJohnnyDx Jita is Jita Tautologies rarely serve a purpose. Originally by: xJohnnyDx it won't be permanently "fixed" until it can handle multiple accounts from every person worldwide Rather than attempt the impossible, why not make it so that no system needs to handle the entire playerbase at once, or even a significant portion of it? Originally by: xJohnnyDx Again, Jita is a choice anyway, not one single person has to be there, so if someone chooses to be their, they chose to risk the lag to get what they wanted. Fair enough, but simply accepting the fact that certain parts of the game are broken is absurd to me. And even more abhorrent is the fact that CCP has let so many of them stay broken for so long. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
xJohnnyDx Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.27 15:32:00 - [135] You keep letting the fact escape that CCP isn't responsible for Jita. The players are. The constant human nature need for convenience is the problem. I'm not against something that makes Jita lag-free forever, but nobody can deny that in order for that to happen, there has to be a more or equally convenient opportunity created. CCP is unfortunately limited by their programming and desire to keep everything within an RP perspective. PLACE SIGNATURE HERE What?! [Insert event here] happened? Quick, start a new thread on the forums! "Moot", not "mute".
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.27 15:47:00 - [136] Originally by: xJohnnyDx You keep letting the fact escape that CCP isn't responsible for Jita. The players are. The constant human nature need for convenience is the problem. I'm not against something that makes Jita lag-free forever, but nobody can deny that in order for that to happen, there has to be a more or equally convenient opportunity created. CCP is unfortunately limited by their programming and desire to keep everything within an RP perspective. Nope, CCP are responsible for Jita. To excuse CCP out of all this, because "player human nature got the better of them" is stupid, because if that were the case, it would make them failures at programming and at having any kind of foresight. Players will be players, no matter what. I log into the game to play, not to make developing decisions and think it philosophically. That is their job. Rifter is not X-Wing CCP. Trinity model kinda sucks.
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.27 15:58:00 - [137] Originally by: xJohnnyDx You keep letting the fact escape that CCP isn't responsible for Jita. The players are. Wrong. CCP is responsible for Jita. If I create a **ty GUI for one of my apps and the users don't like how it works, I don't go to tell them "You're using it wrong, use this other feature that is slightly inferior, because fixing the one you want is too hard, or I don't like the fix." because they're my freaking customers. I change the GUI to suit their needs. Originally by:** xJohnnyDx The constant human nature need for convenience is the problem. Human behavior is not a "problem". It's a consistent, known condition that must be accounted for. Sure, maybe they didn't realize that Jitas would occur naturally at the outset of EVE, but they have had plenty of time to adapt the game to account for what by now is a clearly known and predictable behavior. Originally by: xJohnnyDx I'm not against something that makes Jita lag-free forever, but nobody can deny that in order for that to happen, there has to be a more or equally convenient opportunity created. I agree, hence some solution is need other than throwing better hardware at Jita's node. Originally by: xJohnnyDx CCP is unfortunately limited by their programming and desire to keep everything within an RP perspective. No, they're limited by their failure to grasp the fact that a fully functional game with one or two more reality-bending mechanics is vastly preferable to many of their customers than one that's slightly more realistic with several completely broken pieces. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Eulalinda Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.27 17:09:00 - [138] Originally by: xJohnnyDx If I break my desk because my monitor is too heavy, then fix it so it support the monitor, should I get mad when it breaks again because I put an even heavier monitor on it? When in the last 2 years was Eve's busiest system able to run smoothly on Eve's busiest day?
An Anarchyyt Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.11.27 17:15:00 - [139] Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 27/11/2007 17:16:02 Originally by: Eulalinda Originally by: xJohnnyDx If I break my desk because my monitor is too heavy, then fix it so it support the monitor, should I get mad when it breaks again because I put an even heavier monitor on it? When in the last 2 years was Eve's busiest system able to run smoothly on Eve's busiest day? So, again, why do you keep going to Jita? Originally by: Xaen If I create a **ty GUI for one of my apps and the users don't like how it works, I don't go to tell them "You're using it wrong, use this other feature that is slightly inferior, because fixing the one you want is too hard, or I don't like the fix." because they're my freaking customers. I change the GUI to suit their needs. Why are you even here when you have made it more than clear you absolutely hate the game? Are you that full of self-loathing you must continously sit here and pay for a game that fills you with such rage? Also, I enjoy your amazing business models, I am surprised you aren't CEO of 3M right now. Originally by:** CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.27 17:16:00 - [140] Jita whiners can i have your stuff? Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected])
Syri Taneka Gallente Decimus Corp FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2007.11.27 17:23:00 - [141] I've been in Jita with over 700 people. 1) Crank down your graphics ALL the way. 2) Obliterate (clear) your overview. 3) Zoom WAY out before jumping. 4) Turn OFF the **/** downloads. 5) If it's still a problem, visit just before/after DT. Also, understand that game crashes are much more likely to result from your computer being unable to render/process the incoming information, rather than the server failing to keep up. If 600+ other people have already made it into the system and are using it, chances are you're the straw that broke the camel's back. -------------------------------------- Bishop Endarr > christ, the church is a massive smack machine
Syri Taneka Gallente Decimus Corp FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2007.11.27 17:36:00 - [142] Originally by: xJohnnyDx You keep letting the fact escape that CCP isn't responsible for Jita. The players are. The constant human nature need for convenience is the problem. I'm not against something that makes Jita lag-free forever, but nobody can deny that in order for that to happen, there has to be a more or equally convenient opportunity created. CCP is unfortunately limited by their programming and desire to keep everything within an RP perspective. CCP most definitely is NOT responsible for conditions in Jita. Because CCP isn't standing over you with a lightning gun saying "Thou shalt go into Jita or thou shalt die!" In other words, you are not under any circumstances FORCED to enter the laggiest system in the game. And why is it laggy? Because dumb whiney ****s can't be bothered to go somewhere else for their goods! No, instead they have to place more load on the node server by entering a system they're busy complaining about being laggy! Does this make the slightest sense to anyone of actual intellect? No? Didn't think so. -------------------------------------- Bishop Endarr > christ, the church is a massive smack machine
Eulalinda Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.27 17:41:00 - [143] Edited by: Eulalinda on 27/11/2007 17:42:54 Originally by: An Anarchyyt So, again, why do you keep going to Jita? ...Why are you even here when you have made it more than clear you absolutely hate the game? Are you that full of self-loathing you must continously sit here and pay for a game that fills you with such rage? Also, I enjoy your amazing business models, I am surprised you aren't CEO of 3M right now. Why do you continue to personally attack players who point out a glaring, long-term defect in Eve?
xJohnnyDx Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.27 18:02:00 - [144] Originally by: Eulalinda Originally by: xJohnnyDx If I break my desk because my monitor is too heavy, then fix it so it support the monitor, should I get mad when it breaks again because I put an even heavier monitor on it? When in the last 2 years was Eve's busiest system able to run smoothly on Eve's busiest day? Each time they did a major update to alleviate the lag, it ran fine. CCP "fixed" it, but more people just kept piling in, bringing more lag with them. For reasons I've yet to understand, it still runs fine for a lot of people, even on Sundays at peak time. I've been in and out for a year and a half, at least once a week, normally on Saturday/Sunday at peak time, and have only had the black screen issue twice. The big question here is what do people expect CCP to do with Jita? They can't do anything that will move it to a new location or start another hub to spring up, because like I said before, Jita is the best system equipped to handle that many people. The only realistic solution is to continue adding and optimize hardware, which as far as I've read, is already maxed out for what they're capable of, at the moment. I guess if you don't want to hear "don't go there", then maybe "don't go there until they've upgraded it again" will suffice? PLACE SIGNATURE HERE What?! [Insert event here] happened? Quick, start a new thread on the forums! "Moot", not "mute".
Ancient Pistol	Posted - 2007.11.27 18:13:00 - [145] Originally by: Jennai they had the queues on at some point because Jita was crashing too much, and it was far worse than a laggy but non-crashing Jita. "Laggy" is one thing. I can deal with lag, if I know I'm not going to be in the system for a long time. Spending fifteen to thirty minutes staring at a blank screen with no UI feedback whatsoever is not "laggy." That's broken. Granted, this only happened to me a couple of times, but it has happened. Quote: the queues are buggy and people would often get kicked back to the end I wasn't suggesting creating buggy, crappy queues. I was suggesting well-designed queues that actually do their job. Quote: neighboring systems lagged because they weren't equipped to deal with tons of people Obviously, if Jita has waiting queues, then neighboring systems need to be on server nodes that can handle the load. And, if a neighboring system is overloaded, then that system needs to have queues, too. Quote: autopilot does not have a "go here but don't go through specified system" function so plotting a route around Jita is annoying Easily solvable: simply add said feature to the client. Until then, it's not so hard to plot such a route if you know the star map reasonably well. Quote: dozens of people sitting in jump range of a gate is an obvious target for suicide smartbombers True, but a well-designed queue system can avoid this. For example, a queue does not have to require that all ships in line remain within jump range of a gate. What if all queued pilots were free to move around wherever they wished, including docking in a station? Then, when their "turn" is up, they have a fifteen to thirty minute window to make the jump. This solution gives the benefit of queues, without trapping players in place while they're waiting.
xJohnnyDx Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.27 18:27:00 - [146] Why would you want to make hundreds of people sit in a line? Personally, even if I lagged a bunch in Jita, I'd rather be IN Jita, lagging, and doing my stuff than sitting on a gate or station waiting for my turn to come around. PLACE SIGNATURE HERE What?! [Insert event here] happened? Quick, start a new thread on the forums! "Moot", not "mute".
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.27 18:45:00 - [147] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Why are you even here when you have made it more than clear you absolutely hate the game? Are you that full of self-loathing you must continously sit here and pay for a game that fills you with such rage? Also, I enjoy your amazing business models, I am surprised you aren't CEO of 3M right now. An Anarchyyt, meet ad hominem. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Karlemgne The Black Fleet The Cosa Nostra	Posted - 2007.11.27 18:51:00 - [148] Originally by: Error404 I mean the fix for Yulai wasn't to dump it on another system, i entered Jita and my game crashed, now i've been stuck there for 2 days with a blank screen and not been able to log the **** in.... Please FFS come upw ith a fix for Jita like erm how about not just having one center of trade on a 1980's server that can't even handle only 600 people logged into it. Petition this under the stuck category with on alt on the same character. -Karl
Ancient Pistol	Posted - 2007.11.27 18:55:00 - [149] Originally by: xJohnnyDx Why would you want to make hundreds of people sit in a line? Personally, even if I lagged a bunch in Jita, I'd rather be IN Jita, lagging, and doing my stuff than sitting on a gate or station waiting for my turn to come around. Again I say, lag is one thing, but a broken client is something else. If Jita is merely "laggy," then no queue is necessary. If the load is high enough to start dropping clients or stranding pilots, that's when the queue needs to switch on. The problem is that there's no way of knowing ahead of time whether or not Jita is in a "broken" state of load until it's too late.
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.27 18:56:00 - [150] Originally by: Syri Taneka CCP most definitely is NOT responsible for conditions in Jita. They absolutely are. If parts of the game fail simply because lots of players (in a Massively Multiplayer game!) use them as designed, they are broken. Originally by: Syri Taneka And why is it laggy? Because dumb whiney **s can't be bothered to go somewhere else for their goods! No, it is becasue CCP's design failed to account for the known, predictable human behavior to congregate to do business. Rather than throw more hardware at the problem (a temporary solution at best), they need to create a centralized market that is "physically" distributed across multiple nodes. Interbus is the common suggestion. Originally by:** Syri Taneka And why is it laggy? Because dumb whiney ****s can't be bothered to go somewhere else for their goods! No, instead they have to place more load on the node server by entering a system they're busy complaining about being laggy! Does this make the slightest sense to anyone of actual intellect? No? Didn't think so. Yes, it does. Because it's known, predictable human nature. Why is eBay the biggest internet auction site? Because everyone else goes there. You can find almost anything there. You can sell almost anything there. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.27 18:58:00 - [151] Originally by: Ancient Pistol Again I say, lag is one thing, but a broken client is something else. If Jita is merely "laggy," then no queue is necessary. If the load is high enough to start dropping clients or stranding pilots, that's when the queue needs to switch on. The problem is that there's no way of knowing ahead of time whether or not Jita is in a "broken" state of load until it's too late. I oppose the queue idea. There are ways to fix it that don't make you wait in line. I mean come on, it's a game! It's supposed to be fun! Lines are not fun! -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation	Posted - 2007.11.27 19:10:00 - [152] Please keep piling into one system you know has problems like ignorant sods so you have something to complain about. Those of us who aren't lemmings will be happily getting our stuff for cheaper in lag free systems. There's been various fixes, and each time it's worked better, until people hear about and cram themselves in until it becomes a problem again. There's only so much CCP can do or can be expected to do. And I think they've been doing it just fine. This problem persists in pretty much every other MMO. Ironforge in WoW for example used to be real laggy on any server. And it had nowhere near the population of Jita even on it's best day. There's not some magical fix other than people stop being ignorant, and sucking up and dealing with their own mess that they created. CCP's responsible for keeping their service running for sure, WITHIN REASON. And even with the problems you all insist on causing rather than being smart and finding an alternative to a problem, they're still working on more solutions. Cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head, To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed, To be my friends and special pets.
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.27 19:41:00 - [153] Originally by: Minerva Vulcan There's been various temporary, stop gap solutions, and each time it's worked better, until more people come until it becomes a problem again. There, fixed that for ya. Originally by: Minerva Vulcan There's only so much CCP can do or can be expected to do. And I think they've been doing it just fine. And you're entitled your fanboish opinion. Originally by: Minerva Vulcan This problem persists in pretty much every other MMO. Ironforge in WoW for example used to be real laggy on any server. Used to be. As in they fixed it by linking the auction houses. CCP needs to do something similar. Originally by: Minerva Vulcan There's not some magical fix other than people stop being ignorant Actually there is. Interbus or something similar. Originally by: Minerva Vulcan and sucking up and dealing with their own mess that they created. Sorry, I didn't make the game! If you somehow removed every current player and replaced all of them with new players, you would still have a jita problem. It may not be in Jita, but it would definitely happen again. Thus, the problem is not the customers, it's the product. Originally by: Minerva Vulcan CCP's responsible for keeping their service running for sure, WITHIN REASON. Such as fixing the game so that the most popular parts of it work correctly? Originally by: Minerva Vulcan And even with the problems you all insist on causing rather than being smart and finding an alternative to a problem I suggested a fix. You're more than welcome to add your own suggestions. Originally by: Minerva Vulcan , they're still working on more solutions. So they say, but talk is cheap. Originally by: Minerva Vulcan Cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it. EADADIAF -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
xJohnnyDx Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.27 19:47:00 - [154] You have to realize that whatever system gets put in place, it will be a huge change. Interbus is going to take a lot of programming, testing, and balancing. Linking the markets would be good, but that would go against the RP standpoint, as well as give players a near instant way of moving large things very large distances. Contracts aren't the problem, but changing those would create a similar problem. If there were other good suggestions, please refresh me, as I don't recall them. Keep in mind the extensive programming time, and the fact that there are more important things to fix/improve for the people that don't choose to go into a system that might make them lag out. PLACE SIGNATURE HERE What?! [Insert event here] happened? Quick, start a new thread on the forums! "Moot", not "mute".
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation	Posted - 2007.11.27 19:51:00 - [155] Yes, clearly thinking that you're idiot whiners is fanboiish. We'll nevermind the fact that there are things I think CCP needs to work on. There's other things besides one system in the game that need to be focused on. You want one place to get your goods? That's fine. You deal with the lag. Yes, you. Deal with it. Being smart is asking to much, so just do the simple dealing with it route. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head, To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed, To be my friends and special pets.
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.27 20:15:00 - [156] Originally by: xJohnnyDx You have to realize that whatever system gets put in place, it will be a huge change. Interbus is going to take a lot of programming, testing, and balancing. Linking the markets would be good, but that would go against the RP standpoint, as well as give players a near instant way of moving large things very large distances. Certainly. I am a programmer, so I at least have some inkling of what is required. I never said it would be an easy fix. But throwing hardware at a problem is almost never a permanent solution. As for the RP implications, EVE has already made much bigger concessions to reality than interbus. A few examples: Sound in space. Jump gates. Faster than light travel. Ignoring Newton's First Law Everybody thought warp to zero was going to ruin the game, but I would contend that it didn't. People thought nerfing NOS would ruin a lot of PVP, but people still blow each other up just fine. I think few people would miss Jita if we had a distributed market. Originally by: Minerva Vulcan Contracts aren't the problem, but changing those would create a similar problem. Genuine question.... How so? Originally by: Minerva Vulcan If there were other good suggestions, please refresh me, as I don't recall them. Keep in mind the extensive programming time, and the fact that there are more important things to fix/improve for the people that don't choose to go into a system that might make them lag out. I think there are several other ideas in the thread in my sig. I can't attest to their veracity. If you can think of one, I encourage you to post it! -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Ancient Pistol	Posted - 2007.11.27 20:23:00 - [157] Originally by: Xaen I oppose the queue idea. There are ways to fix it that don't make you wait in line. I mean come on, it's a game! It's supposed to be fun! Lines are not fun! A queue system would solve the problem of players crashing their clients and getting stranded in an overloaded system -- and it would solve the problem without fundamentally changing the way the game works or how it is played, which is the problem with an Interbus or connected market system. Ironforge in WoW is a weak analogy, because WoW is not a game about logistics. EVE is. To remove logistics, or automate it, is to fundamentally change the nature of EVE. I can understand CCP's reluctance to do that. Lag, and wait queues, are like traffic. They are inconvenient, but if the end goal is desirable enough, then it would be worth the wait. For example, I wouldn't call ice mining "fun." But the potential rewards are enough to motivate people to do it anyway. If the traffic in Jita is enough to dissuade people from going there, then that would provide some motivation for people to create secondary, satellite markets, which would also ease the "Jita Problem." The point is, a wait queue would at least notify the user that the system is unusable, and give them the option of doing business somewhere else, instead of the current "solution" of just blindly cramming the pilot into a system that can't handle the load, followed by the subsequent client crash and inability to log in. The bottom line is this: if a system is overloaded to the point that it will crash clients and strand pilots, then the game should not let pilots into the system. Seems like a no-brainer to me. There's no way you can convince me that fifteen minutes of staring at a blank screen, or being unable to log into the game, are better than having a wait queue on a jump gate.
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.27 20:30:00 - [158] Originally by: Minerva Vulcan Yes, clearly thinking that you're idiot whiners is fanboiish. Given that it's a problem that many players, the GMs, ISD, the developers, and even you acknowledge. Given that you're calling people who make constructive posts about the acknowledged problem names. Yes, I'd say it's the epitome of fanboism. Originally by: Minerva Vulcan We'll nevermind the fact that there are things I think CCP needs to work on. Another fanboi response. Any time people suggest CCP work on <problem> rather than <feature>, fanbois say "there's more than one department, they can do both at once". Or they say, "there are other things that are more important". Which is contradictory. Originally by: Minerva Vulcan There's other things besides one system in the game that need to be focused on. You want one place to get your goods? That's fine. You deal with the lag. I don't. I want a distributed market or some architectual solution. Originally by: Minerva Vulcan Yes, you. Deal with it. Originally by: Minerva Vulcan Being smart is asking to much, so just do the simple dealing with it route. Cause fanboism and pretending there isn't a problem is soooooo smart. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
xJohnnyDx Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.27 20:39:00 - [159] At Xaen: I'm not saying any of the proposed changes would ruin the game. Interbus would be nice, and last I heard CCP was taking an honest look at it. A separate, linked region with spread out market places would be nice too, but again, you can set up battleships in one system and buy them on your alt 40/50/60 jumps away. That's why a central contract system wouldn't work. Removing the process of moving stuff between the hubs and surrounding areas would create a lot more whine threads, and again, wouldn't play into the RP aspect of the game, which CCP does their best to uphold. Yes, some things may violate certain laws of physics, but would anyone play the game if they had to spend days/weeks/months moving from a station to a gate? I think you also mentioned somewhere spreading the load to separate nodes, which is impossible with the current system. They're looking into a new system that will be able to spread the load, but right now, it's got the best possible set up it can have. I'll read your ideas on Jita fixes, but I've seen most already, and about 95% of them circle around a central idea of removing the possibility of it being what it functions best as: a central market hub. Like it or not, logistics is a job. It's bad enough as it is, but bearable, so long as you can go to one system and pick up everything you need. Putting changes in place that kill Jita and any central market hub that pops up in it's place is going to make a lot of people even angrier than they are now, and you can guarantee at least half the Jita whiners will start whining that there's no place they can go to get their bulk stuff at a cheap price. Also, all those quotes came from me, not Minerva Vulcan :) At Ancient Pistol: Read above on what happens if you do something that kills Jita as a central market hub. People will either A) sit in line and cause a lot of lag to the surrounding systems (and any other systems on the same nodes), or just stop going to Jita, which will kill it and cause another to pop up in its place. Either way, again, as I said before, I'd rather sit in a laggy system doing my business than sit in line. Plus, there's no way for CCP to truly know what the breaking point is, because where you might get a black screen, I might be operating just fine, like I do 99% of the time. If I missed anything else, I'll try to catch it, right now, that's enough of a wall of text lol. PLACE SIGNATURE HERE What?! [Insert event here] happened? Quick, start a new thread on the forums! "Moot", not "mute".
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.27 20:40:00 - [160] Originally by: Ancient Pistol A queue system would solve the problem of players crashing their clients and getting stranded in an overloaded system -- and it would solve the problem without fundamentally changing the way the game works or how it is played, which is the problem with an Interbus or connected market system. I wouldn't say I would take the current broken system over a queue, but there are better solutions than lines. Originally by: Ancient Pistol Ironforge in WoW is a weak analogy, because WoW is not a game about logistics. EVE is. To remove logistics, or automate it, is to fundamentally change the nature of EVE. I can understand CCP's reluctance to do that. I understand the reluctance. And I don't think Interbus should completely replace moving goods around manually. Limit Interbus to 2-3 system moves. Then it simply takes the load off of individual systemds, but even modest range hauls still exist. In fact, I'd bet you that the business of moving stuff from near Jita and Rens to other systems would actually pick up. Originally by: Ancient Pistol Lag, and wait queues, are like traffic. They are inconvenient, but if the end goal is desirable enough, then it would be worth the wait. Agreed, but wait too long and people go play Halo, Portals, Team Fortress 2, Rock Band, or Guitar Hero III instead. Originally by: Ancient Pistol If the traffic in Jita is enough to dissuade people from going there, then that would provide some motivation for people to create secondary, satellite markets, which would also ease the "Jita Problem." It already is. Check the market in Motsu. Yet the problem remains. Add enough new players and it's worse than before. Originally by: Ancient Pistol The point is, a wait queue would at least notify the user that the system is unusable, and give them the option of doing business somewhere else, instead of the current "solution" of just blindly cramming the pilot into a system that can't handle the load, followed by the subsequent client crash and inability to log in. Again, I'd take your queue over broken, but IMO Interbus would be a more robust solution. Originally by: Ancient Pistol The bottom line is this: if a system is overloaded to the point that it will crash clients and strand pilots, then the game should not let pilots into the system. This is the game's responsibility, not the pilot's responsibility, since the game server has far better access to this information than any pilot can have. Seems like a no-brainer to me. I absolutely agree. Traffic warnings are not sufficient. Half the systems I travel through have warnings. Originally by: Ancient Pistol There's no way you can convince me that fifteen minutes of staring at a blank screen, or being unable to log into the game, are better than having a wait queue on a jump gate. Trying to convince you of that would be absurd. Current system < Queue < Interbus/Other-Solution, eh? -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.27 20:55:00 - [161] Originally by: xJohnnyDx At Xaen: I'm not saying any of the proposed changes would ruin the game. Interbus would be nice, and last I heard CCP was taking an honest look at it. A separate, linked region with spread out market places would be nice too, but again, you can set up battleships in one system and buy them on your alt 40/50/60 jumps away. That's why a central contract system wouldn't work. Removing the process of moving stuff between the hubs and surrounding areas would create a lot more whine threads, and again, wouldn't play into the RP aspect of the game, which CCP does their best to uphold. Yes, some things may violate certain laws of physics, but would anyone play the game if they had to spend days/weeks/months moving from a station to a gate? What would you say to an Interbus system limited to 1-3 jumps from the origin? You'd still have to haul your phat lewtz to a near-jita system to sell it in the market hub, and people would still have to haul from near-Jita to where they do their thing. I think the transport profession would actually get better because the transporting players don't get lagged out and suicide ganked in Jita. Originally by: xJohnnyDx I think you also mentioned somewhere spreading the load to separate nodes, which is impossible with the current system. They're looking into a new system that will be able to spread the load, but right now, it's got the best possible set up it can have. Interbus would allow this distribution without fancy and difficult to implement solutions like RDMA. Concurrent access is very difficult problem. Many programmers never master it. And if the fact that the EVE client is single threaded is any indication, CCP doesn't have any concurrency masters. As an aside, the best GUIs are in separate threads from the fetchMeSomeData() threads. How many people would use windows if the entire thing halted while data was being read from or written to a disk? Originally by: xJohnnyDx If I missed anything else, I'll try to catch it, right now, that's enough of a wall of text lol. I see your wall of text and raise you block quotes! -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
xJohnnyDx Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.27 21:36:00 - [162] Hehe, well I'll say I definitely agree with implementing an InterBus system that can move things 1-3 jumps or so. It will take a while to implement (again, that's my understanding, I could be wrong), but that's the best solution I can see to allevaite some of the lag for those that insist on going to Jita. However, InterBus in itself is a whole new can of worms, which we can debate elsewhere. PLACE SIGNATURE HERE What?! [Insert event here] happened? Quick, start a new thread on the forums! "Moot", not "mute".
Ancient Pistol	Posted - 2007.11.27 22:37:00 - [163] Originally by: xJohnnyDx Read above on what happens if you do something that kills Jita as a central market hub. A queue could never kill any central market hub. It would only throttle it to within server limits, which would still be quite high. For example: if Jita were to turn on queues whenever it had more than 500 concurrent users, it would still leave them off whenever there were less than 500 users. Quote: People will either A) sit in line and cause a lot of lag to the surrounding systems (and any other systems on the same nodes), or just stop going to Jita, which will kill it and cause another to pop up in its place. Or perhaps (C), do something else during peak traffic hours, and come back later. See False Dilemma. Option (C) is the "solution" that many people use now. It would just be nice for the game to DO something to prevent me from entering a system that has a high likelihood to crash my client. Quote: Either way, again, as I said before, I'd rather sit in a laggy system doing my business than sit in line. So would I. I never disputed this point. But there ARE limits, even to lag. Quote: Plus, there's no way for CCP to truly know what the breaking point is, because where you might get a black screen, I might be operating just fine, like I do 99% of the time. I'm sure with a little QA, CCP can figure out what a likely "breaking point" is. It's a matter of statistics. If X% of clients lag out when the system is experiencing Y load, where X is an unacceptable number, then you've found your breaking point.
Ancient Pistol	Posted - 2007.11.27 22:44:00 - [164] Originally by: Xaen Current system < Queue < Interbus/Other-Solution, eh? I see the benefit of Interbus, but I'm not convinced that it is optimal, or even better than queues. Even if an interbus could carry goods for only 1-3 jumps, what's to stop me from creating another Interbus contract as soon as the first one is delivered, and doing so over and over again until my goods have reached their destination? I then would have a 100% secure and automated solution to logistics, which would yield pure profit with absolutely no risk.
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.27 23:10:00 - [165] Originally by: Ancient Pistol I see the benefit of Interbus, but I'm not convinced that it is optimal, or even better than queues. Well we have differing opinions. Originally by: Ancient Pistol Even if an interbus could carry goods for only 1-3 jumps, what's to stop me from creating another Interbus contract as soon as the first one is delivered, and doing so over and over again until my goods have reached their destination? I then would have a 100% secure and automated solution to logistics, which would yield pure profit with absolutely no risk. That's a very good point, and would definitely need to be addressed before it hits TQ. Here's a pretty easy fix for that: Goods that are Interbus'd are put in special sealed containers unique to the Interbus system that cannot be re-entered into an interbus shipment without being physically picked up from a station by the requesting remote character. In order to circumvent this from here, you'd need to have an alt stationed at every single jump along the way to break the package and re-Interbus. This would require a new account for every three jumps at minimum. Actually hauling would be faster, if not as safe. Alternative solution: Semi-hard code systems that are eligible for Interbus contracts. What do I mean by hard-coding? Here's an example: Only only items in Jita can be Interbus'd to the systems 1 jump away. What do I mean by semi-hard coding? Every day during/after DT, the system rewrites the hardcoded systems based on what 0.5% of high-sec systems were had the highest peak # of users, those systems become eligible for Interbus one jump away. Did I miss anything? I never meant to imply I'd come up with the end-all, complete solution. But something that will allow distributed load that doesn't necessarily require crazy difficult programming implementation like concurrent access. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Eulalinda Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.28 00:06:00 - [166] Originally by: Karlemgne Originally by: Error404 I mean the fix for Yulai wasn't to dump it on another system, i entered Jita and my game crashed, now i've been stuck there for 2 days with a blank screen and not been able to log the **** in.... Please FFS come upw ith a fix for Jita like erm how about not just having one center of trade on a 1980's server that can't even handle only 600 people logged into it. Petition this under the stuck category with on alt on the same character. Also, you can start a petition through the Eve website. See the link to the left, "My Petitons".
Eulalinda Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.28 00:08:00 - [167] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Syri Taneka CCP most definitely is NOT responsible for conditions in Jita. They absolutely are. If parts of the game fail simply because lots of players (in a Massively Multiplayer game!) use them as designed, they are broken. Common sense ftw!
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.28 00:12:00 - [168] Originally by: Minerva Vulcan Those of us who aren't lemmings will be happily getting our stuff for cheaper in lag free systems. My Lawyers will be EvE-mailing you shortly; Lemmings is a copywritten term to Nahmetroll Enterprises and you didn't pay your royalties Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Eulalinda Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.28 00:17:00 - [169] Edited by: Eulalinda on 28/11/2007 00:19:18 Originally by: xJohnnyDx You have to realize that whatever system gets put in place, it will be a huge change. Interbus is going to take a lot of programming, testing, and balancing. Wow did it. CCP eventually can too. With 190,000 paying EVE customers and game time costing $11-15/month, CCP collects from us $2.1-2.8 million/month ($25-34 million/year).
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.28 00:19:00 - [170] Originally by: Eulalinda Originally by: xJohnnyDx You have to realize that whatever system gets put in place, it will be a huge change. Interbus is going to take a lot of programming, testing, and balancing. Are you suggesting that WoW can do it but CCP can't? Besides, with 190,000 paying EVE customers and game time costing $11-15/month, CCP collects from us $2.1-2.8 million/month ($25-34 million/year). Look at her posting history and determine if anything she has EVER posted isn't a whine, then you will no how seriously to take her (see what I did there?) Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Eulalinda Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.28 00:22:00 - [171] Originally by: Tortun Nahme Look at her posting history and determine if anything she has EVER posted isn't a whine, then you will no how seriously to take her (see what I did there?) Yes, it's called ad hominem. Please refrain.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.28 00:29:00 - [172] Edited by: Tortun Nahme on 28/11/2007 00:29:27 actually It's called character assassination, an ad hom attack would mean I was discounting what you have to say due to some fact about yourself as such this would not qualify as I am making no judgement call at all now pointing out that you are stupid enough to THINK it was an Ad hom attack and therefore are clearly not smart enough to know what you are talking about would qualify as an ad hom attack but we both know I never did that Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Ancient Pistol	Posted - 2007.11.28 01:58:00 - [173] Originally by: Xaen Here's a pretty easy fix for that: Goods that are Interbus'd are put in special sealed containers unique to the Interbus system that cannot be re-entered into an interbus shipment without being physically picked up from a station by the requesting remote character. In order to circumvent this from here, you'd need to have an alt stationed at every single jump along the way to break the package and re-Interbus. This would require a new account for every three jumps at minimum. Actually hauling would be faster, if not as safe. Or you can fly in a shuttle or pod and "follow the bus." That way, no one can benefit from ganking you, and your goods still arrive safely at their destination with 100% certainty. Quote: Alternative solution: Semi-hard code systems that are eligible for Interbus contracts. What do I mean by hard-coding? Here's an example: Only only items in Jita can be Interbus'd to the systems 1 jump away. What do I mean by semi-hard coding? Every day during/after DT, the system rewrites the hardcoded systems based on what 0.5% of high-sec systems had the highest peak # of users, those systems become eligible for Interbus one jump away. All other systems become ineligible. Inelegant perhaps, but yes, that would work. It could even be combined with queues, so that any system that is "locked" by a queue is eligible for the Interbus only while the queue is in effect. I strongly believe that queues are an absolute necessity, regardless of what other solutions are implemented to reduce the load on a system. Remember that if the load on the system isn't enough to break it, then the queue would (and should) be turned off. Quote: I never meant to imply I'd come up with the end-all, complete solution. But something that will allow distributed load that doesn't necessarily require crazy difficult programming implementation like concurrent access. In your sig thread, I talk about distributing station access for all docked pilots in EVE. That would make a huge difference. I can't see any reason why pilots docked in the same station need to all be serviced by the same node in the cluster.
Barakkus	Posted - 2007.11.28 02:10:00 - [174] Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto There is no reason to go to Jita unfortunately there is a cluster of systems that dead end and the only way to get to them is through jita...believe me i spent a few hours while mining an exploration site trying to figure out how i was going to make it back to korama without going through jita...there just isn't one... i got stuck on my way through the first time...gm moved me within 20 minutes, after that i opted to make jumps through jita right after the servers came up from downtime...which was a real pain to do while getting ready to leave for work :P
xJohnnyDx Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.28 02:58:00 - [175] There's more I could say against a queue system, but I think we'd just end up going around in circles. I'll just keep my fingers crossed it doesn't happen, and agree to disagree :) PLACE SIGNATURE HERE What?! [Insert event here] happened? Quick, start a new thread on the forums! "Moot", not "mute".
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.28 03:31:00 - [176] The problem I see with the proposed interbus system is that it will be no more a permanent fix then adding nodes to jita. Not sure if you're noticed this, but even the systems near jita lag a bit, and quite frankly how is it any different having people crowd into a handfull of systems? The only real difference is that they're run by seperate nodes (and running say 5 nodes for jita and 5 for the system next to it is any better then running 10 on jita how?). Soon people will crowd into perimiter until it lags as bad as jita, then they'll pile into the next system until THAT lags etc. As for the calculations of ships floating in space increasing exponentially, of the hundreds of people in jita I only ever see maybe 15-20 actually outside 4-4, as people once in space generally try to get away from there as fast as possible, so I don't see that as being too much of an issue.
Ancient Pistol	Posted - 2007.11.28 17:32:00 - [177] Originally by: Cambarus The problem I see with the proposed interbus system is that it will be no more a permanent fix then adding nodes to jita. Not sure if you're noticed this, but even the systems near jita lag a bit, and quite frankly how is it any different having people crowd into a handfull of systems? The only real difference is that they're run by seperate nodes (and running say 5 nodes for jita and 5 for the system next to it is any better then running 10 on jita how?). Because I believe there can be a maximum of one node per system. The question is not "how many nodes per system," but rather "how many systems per node". The heaviest systems (like Jita) get a node all to themselves, while smaller systems have to share nodes. Quote: Soon people will crowd into perimiter until it lags as bad as jita, then they'll pile into the next system until THAT lags etc. Yes, but that's easily solved by allocating a higher percentage of a node to each of those systems. Quote: As for the calculations of ships floating in space increasing exponentially, of the hundreds of people in jita I only ever see maybe 15-20 actually outside 4-4, as people once in space generally try to get away from there as fast as possible, so I don't see that as being too much of an issue. True. I believe part of the problem is that the node which serves Jita space is also serving pilots docked in stations. If docked pilots can be shuffled off to different servers, then there would probably be much less of a problem.
Ancient Pistol	Posted - 2007.11.29 20:38:00 - [178] Originally by: xJohnnyDx There's more I could say against a queue system, but I think we'd just end up going around in circles. I'll just keep my fingers crossed it doesn't happen, and agree to disagree :) I agree that queues are a pain in the butt, but they ARE necessary, due to a simple physical fact: EVERY server has a breaking point. It does not matter how "uber" the server is. It does not matter how many in-game "incentives" players have to avoid congregating in one place. Eventually, people will congregate, and the node will become overloaded, and the server MUST have a way to deal with that scenario. Cramming pilots onto a server that cannot handle the load is NEVER a good solution. When a server hits its limit, the game simply must do SOMETHING to prevent it from crashing. Now, to be fair, I have seen queues on Jita gates. When I see the "You will be cleared to jump in 1 minute and 30 seconds," that is a queue, albeit not a very good one. Keep in mind that there are more ways than one to implement queues. For example, if I attempt to jump into a crowded system, and the gate informs me that there is an average wait time of 5 minutes on the jump queue, then I should have the option to abort the jump and choose to do something else instead. That alone would be a HUGE improvement. A bigger improvement would be to give me full access to the neocom while I'm waiting in a queue. That way, I can at least check prices, view my assets, buy and sell goods, and chat with other pilots while I'm waiting. This is another very simple change that would really take the edge off of the tedium of waiting in line. An even bigger improvement would be to give me full access to my ship as well, while I was waiting in line. Allow me to fly around, warp and dock while I'm waiting, and when it's my "turn" to make the jump, give me 15 minutes or so to wrap up whatever I'm doing and warp to the gate. Another part of the Jita problem that I've pointed out, but haven't seen any responses (from CCP or otherwise), is the problem of docked pilots, which also includes people who logged out in Jita and are trying to log in. For whatever reason, pilots who are docked in stations within a system are serviced by the same server node as the system itself. That means that the same server that is hosting miners, mission runners, haulers, and station campers is ALSO servicing every pilot who is docked in a station, including running all of their station services (Fitting, Repairs, Science & Industry, Refining, etc) AS WELL AS servicing all neocom requests (Market, Asset, and Character Sheet browsing)! For those familiar with distributed computing, the station interface is what is known as a "stateless" interface. This means that docked pilots have no position relative to each other, as well as no direct interaction with each other, aside from the chat window (which is serviced by dedicated chat servers anyway). A well-known and well-documented solution for scalability in any "stateless" interface (web servers are a good example) is to use a server farm to service those requests, which basically means that every docked pilot can be assigned to a random server in the node, every time they either dock or log in. This solution can even go so far as to assign a random server for every request, though that would not be necessary in this case. Then, whenever a pilot undocked, they would be transfered to the correct system node (limited by queue if it's overloaded, of course), and off they would go. Obviously, if pilots are trying to undock into a crowded system that is protected by a queue, then these pilots would have some priority over pilots who are trying to jump in from outside the system, since the queue could effectively "strand" a pilot in the station. continued in next post...
Ancient Pistol	Posted - 2007.11.29 20:42:00 - [179] continued from previous post... As far as I can tell, this solution of treating docked station pilots as "stateless" users and assigning them to a server farm, would solve the Jita problem to the point that it wouldn't even need a queue (until a big enough blob tries to fly there, in which case, again, a queue will be necessary to prevent server and client crashes). Anyone care to respond to this idea? Am I missing anything?

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