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Paulo Damarr	Posted - 2007.11.29 01:32:00 - [91] Originally by: Cailais Virgins announcement - Linkage Thankfully I changed isp provider a few months ago - close call! C. Phew thats not to unreasonable with my package, Quote: Broadband Size: XL During peak times, the top 5% on the Size: XL package download at least 3GB of traffic each. Any users hitting this amount during peak times (4pm till midnight) will have their broadband speed temporarily traffic managed û their download speed will be set to 5Mb, with their upload speed set to 256Kb. This will last for 4 hours from when the traffic management policy is applied. Even if a Broadband Size: XL user has their speed temporarily traffic managed, they can still download over 4,000 music files per day. That's not to bad even with these speeds gaming should not be affected as that's the speed of most connections and that's if you even reach the limits. 3GB at peak times would be difficult to reach just playing online games with casual downloading of files. The limits for the slower speeds are harsher though and it might be a poor attempt at providing "incentive" for customers to upgrade. Originally by: Tortun Nahme CCP also condones thinking, I suggest you try it from tiem to time
maarud Scare Tactics	Posted - 2007.11.29 08:40:00 - [92] BeThere Maarud. Proudly a Ex-BYDI member <t20> i'd rather have a python in my pants than a sleipnir
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.29 09:15:00 - [93] Originally by: Maglorre There is no way to determine, by monitoring the traffic between 2 hosts, what the process priority is at either end. They don't have to, what they do is tag what's important to them, if it's not tagged, it must not be important. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality_of_service Additional throttling can be done by something as simple a TCP and UDP ports in use. Glady in the US, the FCC has put a dampner on most of these shanigans by ISPs, though they are fighting back. Trunk providers however use this all the time. -AS The Real Space Initiative (Forum Link)
Nick Curso Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.29 09:16:00 - [94] sounds like VM tbh i'm on there cabel 20mb service after fighting with them for months about only getting a 4mb connection they sent an engineer out who told me that they hadnt opend the pipe and to cause absolute **** till they do, which they did. They have also implemented something that drops ure connection speed to 5mb if u download over 3 gig between 5-midnight which is absolute bull on a 20mb like thats maybe an hours download if that where is the point in paying for 20mb if u carnt use it.
Nick Curso Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.29 09:18:00 - [95] wow i shoulden't post before my morning coffie.
Zenst Gallente Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.11.29 09:23:00 - [96] Originally by: Cailais Virgins announcement - Linkage Thankfully I changed isp provider a few months ago - close call! C. They did this a while back when they did the 20MB upgrades. This dont effect eve unless you dont know how to schedule your downloads be it torrent or the like. Though limits aint that hard stay under during peak. What the OP described was something comletely different and more akin to QOS upon packet types/ports or use.
Gaven Blands	Posted - 2007.11.29 10:14:00 - [97] Edited by: Gaven Blands on 29/11/2007 10:14:29 Well all that I see is Virgin Media are publicising what NTL used to do anyway. They've always metered my speed based on their ability to provide what I pay for. --Yes I know to you foreigners that sounds stupid, but that is the reality of broadband in the uk. They are allowed to publish, quite literally, anything, sell you, anything. But what you actually get when you sign up is absolutely nothing like what you bought.-- Before Virgin, NTL would throttle my overall traffic, which I considered was preferable to those "other" ISPs that would simply cut you off or charge you insane cash the moment you hit some arbitrary GB value. -- Awwwww Diddums! Did I wardec your highsec alt recently or something?
Paaaulo	Posted - 2007.11.29 10:57:00 - [98] I have virgin media, I have cable, but I have been getting disconnected from eve repeatedly during peak times. Also how ridiculous is their "fair use" policy? after I download 750mb during peak times my net gets cut in half, I have the "Large" package (4mb). Overall Virgin Media suck, if I had a BT phone line I'd of switched by now.
Gius Adoma Times of Ancar Pure.	Posted - 2007.11.29 11:57:00 - [99] Hmm well sorry to go against the grain as such, but I had nothing but rubbish with ADSL and no problems with cable. had it for 3 years at uni no problem and have got it again now and its working much better. ADSL used to have a ping of say 60-70ms to most uk game servers and very often my 2MB connection would only run at 300-400k in the weekday evenings (ok at weekends mind) and I was paying ú17 for this connection and it was unmetered. I now have 4MB Virgin Media cable connection, pings have come down to 20-30ms and it always works at 4MB unless i do alot of downloading (mainly overnight when the limit doesnt apply and cheap rate electric is in place! 3p a unit lol) and I pay ú17 for that. I am in the east of england and have not experienced what you are talking about except the cutting of the speed, but it doesnt affect my ping, only the download speed and considering i had 2MB before, its not a big deal really unless you spend all your time downloading stuff. = Times of Ancar =
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.29 12:07:00 - [100] Originally by: Cailais Virgins announcement - Linkage Thankfully I changed isp provider a few months ago - close call! C. That actually sounds quite reasonable (although it depends on how accurate that description is and if they stick to it). That '5% cause all the hassle' is pretty much in-line with industry experience. [rant]It's a small minority of (and I'll apologise in advance here) greedy little **s that cause the problems. It has always amazed me how much these gits manage to download. That message says some people are downloading 3GB of stuff a night. Wtf? That's 210GB a week! It's sad, though not surprising, that some people abuse networks like that but as I asked a couple of days ago:What it tarnation's name are those dweebs finding that amounts to 210GB a week? That's nearly a 1TB a month. Are they downloading the entire f'ing Internet or something? Are they so stupid as to think someone's going to take it all away one day and force them to browse from local off-line copies?[/rant] -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.**
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.29 12:08:00 - [101] Originally by: maarud BeThere At the moment, yeah. I'm with them. OTOH with O2BB released and Dana leaving the helm one has to wonder how much longer BeThere will continue run as it does. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Lord MuffloN Caldari Aggressive Tendencies Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.11.29 12:35:00 - [102] Seriously, what is it with the UK and sucky broadband, it's like you don't have anything else then crap as ISP :[ I feel sad for you, I'm a Swede with Telia, they've never let me down, never throttled my connection and I get 22 out of 24Mbit ADSL I pay for, and it costs nothing. I feel sad for those brits with crappy broadband :( Originally by: Jago Kain If they ever decide to award a Nobel Prize for Emo, Lord MuffloN is a sure fire winner of the first on
Kappas. Galaxy Punks Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.11.29 12:37:00 - [103] Edited by: Kappas. on 29/11/2007 12:37:16 The other end of the spectrum is Virgin are launching 50 megabit broadband next year... Edit: The question is: Why? When they're throttling programs access to the internet __________________ Recruitment
Scrutt5 Snuff inc	Posted - 2007.11.29 13:22:00 - [104] I'm with VM in South Manchester. For the past couple of days mu client has been slow on loading up after jumps, I searched my machine for ad ware etc. and couldnt find anything. I can only assume this has already been rolled out across other regions other than the South East.
Karina Bellac	Posted - 2007.11.29 13:27:00 - [105] Originally by: Lord MuffloN Seriously, what is it with the UK and sucky broadband, it's like you don't have anything else then crap as ISP :[ I feel sad for you, I'm a Swede with Telia, they've never let me down, never throttled my connection and I get 22 out of 24Mbit ADSL I pay for, and it costs nothing. I feel sad for those brits with crappy broadband :( It's because the old BT was shortsighted and overburdened with bureauocracy. They had a perfectly functional infrastructure that catered for the traffic they had, at the time. They ignored trends, in terms of the switch from paper to electronic media, the increase in population, the increase in information interchange, and most importantly the increase and improvements in communication technology. They got broken up to allow competition in the market. All that did was add even more paperwork and bureauocracy in-between the various parts of 'BT'. Today, if you are having ADSL installed by BT the ISP, your order will most likely complete faster than if your ADSL is from a 'third party' ISP. BT are a textbook on technology failure. Tone dialling? BT took ages to implement that. I remember moving house when I was a kid, and we had to buy a cheap pulse dialling phone because the telephone exchange at the new house hadn't been upgraded. Best of all, BT repeatedly said that ADSL would never be in demand enough for them to install the infrastructure to support it. It took repeated public action (petitions, etc) to get BT to start supporting it, and even then, BT would only upgrade a telephone exchange if enough people who lived in its catchment area 'pre-ordered' ADSL. Now, why does this make the UK crap for domestic internet? All the exchanges and associated infrastructure is owned by BT. As part of LLU, BT has had to segragate every exchange to allow third party engineers inside for equipment and customer provision. As far as I know, there isn't much third-party backhaul infrastructure in the UK currently, and certainly every Main Distribution Frame is firmly in the hands of BT.
Hermosa Diosas The-Secret-Service Retribution.	Posted - 2007.11.29 13:30:00 - [106] Ah so thats why ive been disconnecting so much lately!! Every 15 mins when playing eve its just disconnects its been a bloody pain! and yes its virgin media!
Shanur Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.11.29 13:54:00 - [107] Note to self, When switching providers after my move, make sure to agree on a quality of service that assures that at least a given percentage of the bandwidth is 100% guaranteed regardless of the service it is used for. Or that includes "No throthling" in it's contractual terms.
Maximada Minmatar FM Corp Insomnia.	Posted - 2007.11.29 14:06:00 - [108] Virgin Media Problem FIXED!!! Right Ive been speaking to Martyn Cook who is one of the leading broadband and cable engineers in the UK. I told him about the problems that we were having and he gave me a workaround that fixes it. Basically the new filtering that Virgin uses to set priorities on a line only picks up Interleaved traffic (if you dont know what interleaving is google it), but basically its the way in which information is sent down a line the theroy of interleaving was brought in to reduce packet loss however it also creates lag for gamers. Please google it to read more. Virgin however obviously have no intention to make this news available to their customers or their new system will be useless. THE BAD NEWS As a virgin customer interleaving is on by default. And only virgin can change your line to not use interleaving. THE GOOD NEWS It is a customers lawfull right according to virgins terms of service to have interleaving dissabled on your line. It takes a simple phone call to the tech support at virgin and you can ask for it to be dissabled. Of course they will ask you why etc because they want you to have it on so that they can filter your traffic (grrrrrrr) so simply say your a gamer rather than an internet surfer and that you wish to turn interleaving off. They cannot refuse this request. So dont take no for an answer, they may try telling you to read about interleaving on the net etc to decide if its a good idea to do it. Dont worry they are trying to throw you off, (anyway it can always be switched back on) It takes anything from 24 hours to 36 hours for them to get around to switching it off for you, keep phoning and asking them if its been done. I kept bugging them and got mine switched off within 24 hours. Since then i have had full use of my bandwidth and althouh my throughput is around 0.5mbit worse (a downside to having it off) my gaming has improved dramatically and eve and ventrilo are now back to the way they should be. My advice to all virgin customers is to use this information, read about interleaving, get it turned off on your line, and bypass their totally outrageous prioritising software. Good Luck Max
Maximada Minmatar FM Corp Insomnia.	Posted - 2007.11.29 14:07:00 - [109] Virgin Media Problem FIXED!!! Right Ive been speaking to Martyn Cook who is one of the leading broadband and cable engineers in the UK. I told him about the problems that we were having and he gave me a workaround that fixes it. Basically the new filtering that Virgin uses to set priorities on a line only picks up Interleaved traffic (if you dont know what interleaving is google it), but basically its the way in which information is sent down a line the theroy of interleaving was brought in to reduce packet loss however it also creates lag for gamers. Please google it to read more. Virgin however obviously have no intention to make this news available to their customers or their new system will be useless. THE BAD NEWS As a virgin customer interleaving is on by default. And only virgin can change your line to not use interleaving. THE GOOD NEWS It is a customers lawfull right according to virgins terms of service to have interleaving dissabled on your line. It takes a simple phone call to the tech support at virgin and you can ask for it to be dissabled. Of course they will ask you why etc because they want you to have it on so that they can filter your traffic (grrrrrrr) so simply say your a gamer rather than an internet surfer and that you wish to turn interleaving off. They cannot refuse this request. So dont take no for an answer, they may try telling you to read about interleaving on the net etc to decide if its a good idea to do it. Dont worry they are trying to throw you off, (anyway it can always be switched back on) It takes anything from 24 hours to 36 hours for them to get around to switching it off for you, keep phoning and asking them if its been done. I kept bugging them and got mine switched off within 24 hours. Since then i have had full use of my bandwidth and althouh my throughput is around 0.5mbit worse (a downside to having it off) my gaming has improved dramatically and eve and ventrilo are now back to the way they should be. My advice to all virgin customers is to use this information, read about interleaving, get it turned off on your line, and bypass their totally outrageous prioritising software. Good Luck Max
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.29 14:55:00 - [110] Originally by: Shanur Note to self, When switching providers after my move, make sure to agree on a quality of service that assures that at least a given percentage of the bandwidth is 100% guaranteed regardless of the service it is used for. Or that includes "No throthling" in it's contractual terms. Lol! Do you have any idea how hard it will be to get a resedential ISP to even discuss QoS? Even businesses rarely bother. Assuming you can get them agree the cost will be horrendous. And I mean that. Public broadband provision has only been possible at all because it's a contended, no-guarantee service. If you want a decent QoS you are going to be talking about paying hundreds if not thousands of pounds a month. You probably want to be looking at getting a LES although I think now people are recommending a BES. Knock yourself out :) -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.29 14:57:00 - [111] Originally by: Maximada It is a customers lawfull right according to virgins terms of service to have interleaving dissabled on your line. Where in the ToS? Linkage, section, paragraph, please. -------- EVE Trinity: THE SKY IS FALLING!
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.29 15:06:00 - [112] Originally by: Maximada Virgin Media Problem FIXED!!! Right Ive been speaking to Martyn Cook who is one of the leading broadband and cable engineers in the UK. I told him about the problems that we were having and he gave me a workaround that fixes it. Basically the new filtering that Virgin uses to set priorities on a line only picks up Interleaved traffic (if you dont know what interleaving is google it) I know exactly what interleaving is all about and it seems an equally stupid/impossible way to prioritise things. Interleaving is used in the local loop by the DSLAM and the router to overcome noise bursts. Basically packets between the DSLAM and your router are split into two parts so that noise spikes are less likely to take out the entire packet. The problem wrt to network congestion excuses is that interleaving onlyoccurs on the consumer side of the connection and is transparent to TCP/IP. It has no directly visible effect on the data stream leaving the exchange on the ISP side (the bit known as backhaul) and can not therefore be used to manage congestion. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.29 15:23:00 - [113] damn' silly nuts discrimination bloodyminded incompetence That's Virgin ADSL alright. I've never gotten so much as 250kb/s on a speedtest out of my 8mb line. The official party line for Virgin is that nothing is their fault, always BT or the customer. Not that they didn't confirm 500kb/s minimum when throttled (which according to Virgin I never have been) on this line when I was originally choosing a new ISP. Currently much of EVE plays like Motsu on a sunday. -------- EVE Trinity: THE SKY IS FALLING!
Jupiter Sun	Posted - 2007.11.29 15:28:00 - [114] Originally by: Nick Curso sounds like VM tbh i'm on there cabel 20mb service after fighting with them for months about only getting a 4mb connection they sent an engineer out who told me that they hadnt opend the pipe and to cause absolute **** till they do, which they did. They have also implemented something that drops ure connection speed to 5mb if u download over 3 gig between 5-midnight which is absolute bull on a 20mb like thats maybe an hours download if that where is the point in paying for 20mb if u carnt use it. damn right, i too have the 20MB version and you can hit that 3gb limit in a matter of minutes at top speed, for example if you pay for a usenet provider like giganews that'll fill any household cable connection. SO they doubled my line speed 'for free' yet reduced what I can actually download by 75%. I reckon a lot of users dont know about this bandwidth limiting BS and put their crappy speeds down to usage during peak hours.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.29 15:37:00 - [115] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf damn' silly nuts discrimination bloodyminded incompetence That's Virgin ADSL alright. I've never gotten so much as 250kb/s on a speedtest out of my 8mb line. The official party line for Virgin is that nothing is their fault, always BT or the customer. Not that they didn't confirm 500kb/s minimum when throttled (which according to Virgin I never have been) on this line when I was originally choosing a new ISP. Currently much of EVE plays like Motsu on a sunday. Out of curiousity what is your downstream attenuation and noise margin? -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.29 15:40:00 - [116] Originally by: Jupiter Sun Originally by: Nick Curso sounds like VM tbh i'm on there cabel 20mb service after fighting with them for months about only getting a 4mb connection they sent an engineer out who told me that they hadnt opend the pipe and to cause absolute **** till they do, which they did. They have also implemented something that drops ure connection speed to 5mb if u download over 3 gig between 5-midnight which is absolute bull on a 20mb like thats maybe an hours download if that where is the point in paying for 20mb if u carnt use it. damn right, i too have the 20MB version and you can hit that 3gb limit in a matter of minutes at top speed, for example if you pay for a usenet provider like giganews that'll fill any household cable connection. SO they doubled my line speed 'for free' yet reduced what I can actually download by 75%. I reckon a lot of users dont know about this bandwidth limiting BS and put their crappy speeds down to usage during peak hours. But what are downloading from giganews that is 3GB every night, night after night? -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Mxyzptlyk	Posted - 2007.11.29 15:55:00 - [117] Just to frame the discussion properly, here is an explanation of "priority" as (I think) they're using it. Every IP packet has a field in it used to indicate the Quality of Service (QoS) it should receive. The idea is that you give latency sensitive applications like voice, and video the chance to "cut" in line to the front of the queue and get out of a given router faster (Reducing latency). You can also have it adjust which packets get dropped when very heavy traffic hits your network (making sure things that have to get through, do). (Think of deciding who to drop like deciding who gets a "We're sorry, all lines are busy - please try your call at another time message from the phone company). The problem is that the application that creates the packet (not your OS) is responsible for saying what it's priority is, and if your Application isn't QoS aware the default marking is all zero's in that field. All zeros is the lowest possible priority. I'll leave any commentary about the good or bad of this to others. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality_of_service http://www.cisco.com/univercd/cc/td/doc/cisintwk/ito_doc/qos.htm
Dommie Jax Caldari Blue Phoenix Research	Posted - 2007.11.29 16:08:00 - [118] Wel i have DUMeter installed on my PC and frequently check my up and down load limits each week maximum i have managed is 12gig in a month HOWEVER this month i have managed to use 12 gig in 2 days (yeah i know shocking) I downloaded some games from a game supplier and then had to download all the patches Where i work one of the guys managed to do 150gig in a month Got the throttle put on, so we came into work and took it off again (ahh perks of being the tech guys at the ISP) I even managed to break my download speed from 8meg to 15.5 meg (SNR of 32 on 8 meg down to around 11 at 15.5) had to take it off and put it back to 8 as i screwed the other 7 customer on my card up I have to admit that as above the reason we have such crap speeds and connections is due to the fact BT do own and maintain so much of the network, this gives them effective Carte Blanche over what happens (i used to work in the BT BBR team fixing reseller BB Issues) Some of the ISP's that have gone for LLU not simply have to rely on OR to keep the connections between the Exchange and users site intact ( and this is easier said than done) We have dedicated teams that deal with the crappy issues on the lines and we do get specialist engineer out BUT as these engineers are shareholders of the company that supplies all the connections (BT and Openreach)you can pretty much guess they would rather everyone went back to BT so they pick up nice fat dividend checks and pensions Here is hoping that the EU will finally do what OFCOM should have done and break up BT to open the entire network up and encourage competition, that will ensure everyone gets the speeds they need, and also discourage the ISP from throttling networks and ruining your gaming time
Joren Lemark	Posted - 2007.11.29 16:21:00 - [119] Originally by: Mxyzptlyk Just to frame the discussion properly, here is an explanation of "priority" as (I think) they're using it. Every IP packet has a field in it used to indicate the Quality of Service (QoS) it should receive. The idea is that you give latency sensitive applications like voice, and video the chance to "cut" in line to the front of the queue and get out of a given router faster (Reducing latency). You can also have it adjust which packets get dropped when very heavy traffic hits your network (making sure things that have to get through, do). (Think of deciding who to drop like deciding who gets a "We're sorry, all lines are busy - please try your call at another time message from the phone company). The problem is that the application that creates the packet (not your OS) is responsible for saying what it's priority is, and if your Application isn't QoS aware the default marking is all zero's in that field. All zeros is the lowest possible priority. I'll leave any commentary about the good or bad of this to others. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality_of_service http://www.cisco.com/univercd/cc/td/doc/cisintwk/ito_doc/qos.htm I don't think they're even using this, or at least its not a primary filtering system. Being it seems to be more port specific. Example being if you switch the port eve uses to connect to the servers from 26000 to 3724, lag caused by port filtering drops, and this is without changing anything to do with TCP packets ToS/QoS field. Of course its all conjecture until they officially state it in a public statement/news report.
benzss Templar Securities and Holdings Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.11.29 16:27:00 - [120] Thank God I got rid of Virgin and got Sky instead. Virgin is the worst ISP in history. Get out while you can, kids!

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