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Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.02.04 20:11:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Aem Gallente whining as per norm.
Live with it... end of story.
I had to adapt to the nano nerf, I had to adapt to the nos nerf, I had to adapt to the td/sd nerf, SO CAN YOU.
if the changes go live, I've already prepared myself for it:
Quote: Amarr Cruiser / Rank 5 / SP: 443953 of 1280000 +Currently training to: level 5 +Time left: 7 days, 22 hours, 6 minutes, 4 seconds +SP done: 465920 of 836047
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planetary interaction idea! |
Steph Wing
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.02.04 20:51:00 -
[152]
The quote in my sig applies to the Deimos.
Seriously, CCP, we appreciate you trying to perfect this game, but put a little more thought into how ship tweaks affect the ship being tweaked.
I think I speak for a lot of people, though, when I express gratitude that this change was made first on Sisi, rather than deployed as a stealth nerf to TQ.
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About TGRAD |
Volucer S
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.02.04 21:23:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Aem Gallente whining as per norm.
Live with it... end of story.
I had to adapt to the nano nerf, I had to adapt to the nos nerf, I had to adapt to the td/sd nerf, SO CAN YOU.
CCP constantly nerfs Gallente- Nano nerf, EANM nerf, Nosferatu nerf, Drone shield recharge nerf, Drone Bandwith nerf, etc etc, boosting other races.
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sdthujfg
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Posted - 2008.02.04 21:29:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Volucer S
Originally by: Aem Gallente whining as per norm.
Live with it... end of story.
I had to adapt to the nano nerf, I had to adapt to the nos nerf, I had to adapt to the td/sd nerf, SO CAN YOU.
CCP constantly nerfs Gallente- Nano nerf, EANM nerf, Nosferatu nerf, Drone shield recharge nerf, Drone Bandwith nerf, etc etc, boosting other races.
The shoe is now on the other foot.... ...the tables have turned....aww i dont have anymore.
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Daan Sai
HAZCON Inc
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Posted - 2008.02.05 03:42:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Aem Gallente whining as per norm.
Live with it... end of story.
I had to adapt to the nano nerf, I had to adapt to the nos nerf, I had to adapt to the td/sd nerf, SO CAN YOU.
Note, the big difference here is that many people don't want a nominal *buff* ( its not supposed to be a nerf, but views differ there), but simply to be left alone. Even if the Zealot is boosted. Everyone agrees the Amarr ships needed improvement, and I say great. Everyone had views on the nano/nos *nerfs*. But here I see a lot of "aint broke!" and "don't care if we lose 1v1 - Deimos has weaknesses, but that's it's attraction!"
The real pity is that it is stealing the Amarr boost thunder a bit (count the posts). [ I love the Amarr boost btw, and think a little more pg/cpu is probably needed still to make fitting possible to less than 'all V skills' characters. ]
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Selnix
Gallente North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.02.05 06:39:00 -
[156]
If the really does supposedly need that mid, give us more grid so we can use it since we already have to use grid rigs if we want to fit Neutrons. If that mid is supposed to support the tank on the ship, don't remove a tanking slot, remove the cloaking/salvaging/empty hi slot. IF it needs change, change it to:
5 Highs 4 Meds 6 Lows
- MWD cap bonus + Rep bonus + grid to fit that gorram med injector that you insist we need so much
While you're at it, why not put that MWD bonus where it should really be? Drop the 5% per level bonus to medium hybrid damage on the Ishtar and give it the MWD cap use bonus, because that change actually improves a ship instead of screwing up pretty much every kit people have trained up to use.
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Heelay Ashrum
Caldari Santhe Sienar Technologies
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Posted - 2008.02.05 09:15:00 -
[157]
So the cost of a 4th medium is to loose 1 ( of the 6 ) low slots? What's all this whine? Do you realy dont understand what this is u bust and not a nerf?!?
a cap injector is a huge bust (powercore permitting), and for those that realy say that they dont need it,.. well put a damp/ecs burst/what the hell u will . There is a lot of nasty things u can do with a med slot.
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Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.02.05 09:56:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Heelay Ashrum So the cost of a 4th medium is to loose 1 ( of the 6 ) low slots? What's all this whine? Do you realy dont understand what this is u bust and not a nerf?!?
a cap injector is a huge bust (powercore permitting), and for those that realy say that they dont need it,.. well put a damp/ecs burst/what the hell u will . There is a lot of nasty things u can do with a med slot.
indeed, the deimos will be busted by this change
jokes aside, have you ever flown one? ---
planetary interaction idea! |
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.05 10:11:00 -
[159]
If you really want to boost the Deimos. Give it more powergrid.
I've got maxed fitting skills but am short of 74.9 grid when it comes to fitting an 800mm plate in the following setup (despite having an RCU II fitted!). 50, 75 or 100 grid more would be plenty.
High> 5 Heavy Neutron II, Salvager I Med> 10MN MWD II, x5 web, warp disrupt I Low> MAR II, EANM II, DCU II, Explo Hard II, RCU II (Free slot, 125.1 grid spare)
This setup is cap stable for a good 2 minutes+ with perfect cap skills.
All the below are for a Neutron II fit with an RCU II (A fair sacrifice IMHO for the extra DPS of Neutrons)
The above with an 800mm Rolled Tungsten plate which cannot fit currently it would have 5175 armour hp at pretty good resists, but is short 74.9 grid.
With a 400mm plate which does fit it has 3675 hp (titanium plate)with roughly 95 grid spare).
With a boost of 50 more grid - you could fit Neutron IIs, Medium NOS/Neutralizer AND MAR II without a plate (still using an RCU II).
For Passive tanks: (Still Neutron IIs and RCU II)
100 grid more and you could fit 2x 800mm RT plates for a maximum viable 7800 hp passive tank with 3 slots for probably Explo hard II, DCU II and a Mag Stab II (or EANM II).
200 grid more makes a 1600mm RT plate possible so steer clear of this please.
So there we have a little round up of possible changes to grid that would significantly boost the current Deimos tanking without changing its Modus Operundae.
My personal preference would be the additional 50 powergrid only.
This would let me fly the full gank Med NOS, 5 Neutron IIs, 3 Mag stabs, DCU II, MAR II.
Relying on getting in close and your enemies cap for your own meager damage controlling repairs while you melt them. Thats proper do or die, none of this sustainable dual bonussed rep nonsense.
Hope this helps - Thanks.
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Hunter Vonnegut
In terrorem KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.05 11:41:00 -
[160]
Edited by: Hunter Vonnegut on 05/02/2008 11:44:46 slight derail:
I don't understand where all this plate talk is coming from, when you plate deimos you are losing all your speed and agility and in a sense creating a half-*ssed brutix.
I have always run mine with a repper and it has done just fine.
anyways, if there is a change that can be made to the deimos, either add a small bit of CPU to make that 6th slot usable or just remove it completely.
OR BETTER YET JUST LEAVE IT ALONE
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Selnix
Gallente North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.02.05 18:30:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Heelay Ashrum So the cost of a 4th medium is to loose 1 ( of the 6 ) low slots? What's all this whine? Do you realy dont understand what this is u bust and not a nerf?!?
a cap injector is a huge bust (powercore permitting), and for those that realy say that they dont need it,.. well put a damp/ecs burst/what the hell u will . There is a lot of nasty things u can do with a med slot.
Just a guess here that you mean bust=BOOST...
In its current state on Singularity, the Deimos requires two powergrid rigs and a best named or faction mwd to be able to fit a Neutron kit with Med injector and MAR II, unplated and now short one Mag Stab II. Will it out-tank the old slot/bonus arrangement deimos? Yes, but only until it runs out of cap booster charges. It has enough cargo space for 8 counting the one in the booster. That isn't very much when you DEPEND on them to be able to shoot and tank. If you have to burn your MWD getting to a target or away from trouble, there go some of your charges. Without the MWD bonus, your capacitor regen fails to do any good and you really do need a CCC or some Nanobot rigs to help you capacitor-wise but you can't fit them if you want a neutron kit. We can probably live with the new slot setup but CCP needs to give her more grid so the cap booster and the 6th high slot can be used.
On the Derail side of things...
25% MWD bonus from Deimos should replace the 5% hybrid bonus on Ishtar. Eagle is in dire need of more grid for the 5th launcher unless you use it as an underpowered, pre-slot change Deimos and go all gank and hope you live long enough.
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Aravel Thon
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Posted - 2008.02.05 18:40:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Selnix 25% MWD bonus from Deimos should replace the 5% hybrid bonus on Ishtar. Eagle is in dire need of more grid for the 5th launcher unless you use it as an underpowered, pre-slot change Deimos and go all gank and hope you live long enough.[/quote
WTB eagle with 5 launchers (actually given the bonii, i wouldnt)
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Kruel
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2008.02.05 20:10:00 -
[163]
With this change, the Deimos can have a tank like the Sacrilege while doing 140 dps more. The downside is that it has to get in web range every time. Sounds fine to me.
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Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.02.05 20:33:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Kruel With this change, the Deimos can have a tank like the Sacrilege while doing 140 dps more. The downside is that it has to get in web range every time. Sounds fine to me.
huh?
how?
the sacriledge has more armor, more cap (that it's even boosted even more by the HAC skill), and the resist bonus, wich boosts an armor where the resit hole is thermal at 35%, is much better for tanking.
and yes, it has to get in web range every time.
3km away from the target.
the sacriledge, even if the new deimos warped out on top of it, would tear a new one on the deimos, because if it's fitted for gank, the sacri only has to outlast him for time enough, and if it's fitted for tank, specially in the new setup, would run out of ammo and cap charges before it could even dent a dual MAR sacri's armor, nevermind the fact that it doesn't need to worry about the range of the target like the deimos has. ---
planetary interaction idea! |
Fifi LeFume
Griefers Inc. Notoriety Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.05 20:57:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Kruel With this change, the Deimos can have a tank like the Sacrilege while doing 140 dps more. The downside is that it has to get in web range every time. Sounds fine to me.
You sir, are one funny funny achuran. You should have your own standup comedy show
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Kruel
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2008.02.05 21:30:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Kruel With this change, the Deimos can have a tank like the Sacrilege while doing 140 dps more. The downside is that it has to get in web range every time. Sounds fine to me.
huh?
how?
Maybe you forgot the part where Deimos gets a 7.5% rep amount per lvl now? Not quite as good as the Sac's resist bonus, but close. Dual reps, nanopump rigs, resist mods in the lows... it's not that hard.
Sac has more versatility when it comes to range, but Deimos can opt to use 5x medium ecm drones which are imba.
Like the rest of you, I wouldn't mind having that useless high moved to the mid instead of the lows, but the changes aren't nearly as bad as many of you make it out to be. You're just so used to gank fits that you can't fathom tanking it.
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Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.02.05 21:56:00 -
[167]
Edited by: Grimpak on 05/02/2008 22:05:08
Originally by: Kruel
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Kruel With this change, the Deimos can have a tank like the Sacrilege while doing 140 dps more. The downside is that it has to get in web range every time. Sounds fine to me.
huh?
how?
Maybe you forgot the part where Deimos gets a 7.5% rep amount per lvl now? Not quite as good as the Sac's resist bonus, but close. Dual reps, nanopump rigs, resist mods in the lows... it's not that hard.
Sac has more versatility when it comes to range, but Deimos can opt to use 5x medium ecm drones which are imba.
Like the rest of you, I wouldn't mind having that useless high moved to the mid instead of the lows, but the changes aren't nearly as bad as many of you make it out to be. You're just so used to gank fits that you can't fathom tanking it.
oh? check again.
the sacri has more armor and the resists it has more than compensate the 37.5% rep bonus the new deimos has.
and good luck tanking a deimos with injector when you can only pack some 8 charges and only 1000 units of ammo.
and let's not forget that while you can setup a dual MAR tank on the sacriledge without sacrificing allot (you can fit mwd and injector with dual MAR and fit full rack of HAM's), the deimos needs to downgrade to electrons to do a similar fit. ---
planetary interaction idea! |
Kruel
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2008.02.05 22:08:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Grimpak
oh? check again.
the sacri has more armor and the resists it has more than compensate the 37.5% rep bonus the new deimos has.
and good luck tanking a deimos with injector when you can only pack some 8 charges and only 1000 units of ammo.
The DPS tanked is similar. Like I said, the armor amount isn't quite as good as the res bonus, but it's close (around 30dps tanked).
Sac has how much more armor than a Deimos? 60? Compare that to the Deimos' 1k more structure which means t2 suitcases are that much better on a Deimos.
Also remember the 140 extra dps that the Deimos gets (yes in web range - you can't have everything).
Lower your dps for built-in wcs (ie. 5x med ecm drones). Sac can't do that. 3x light ecm drones don't even compare. You'd beat a Sac 1v1 on this point alone unless it stays out of your web range the whole time... at which point you'd just warp off when he's jammed.
The only valid points against the Deimos are smaller carrying capacity for cap 800s and having to fight in web range.
But hey, go ahead and try to get it boosted more... I don't care. I can fly a Deimos too. Just saying... it's not that bad with these changes.
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Lelulie
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.02.05 22:11:00 -
[169]
Electron Deimos with ECM Drones can be tanked by a passive Eris. ------------------------------------ |
Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.02.05 22:16:00 -
[170]
Originally by: Kruel
Originally by: Grimpak
oh? check again.
the sacri has more armor and the resists it has more than compensate the 37.5% rep bonus the new deimos has.
and good luck tanking a deimos with injector when you can only pack some 8 charges and only 1000 units of ammo.
The DPS tanked is similar. Like I said, the armor amount isn't quite as good as the res bonus, but it's close (around 30dps tanked).
Sac has how much more armor than a Deimos? 60? Compare that to the Deimos' 1k more structure which means t2 suitcases are that much better on a Deimos.
Also remember the 140 extra dps that the Deimos gets (yes in web range - you can't have everything).
Lower your dps for built-in wcs (ie. 5x med ecm drones). Sac can't do that. 3x light ecm drones don't even compare. You'd beat a Sac 1v1 on this point alone unless it stays out of your web range the whole time... at which point you'd just warp off when he's jammed.
The only valid points against the Deimos are smaller carrying capacity for cap 800s and having to fight in web range.
But hey, go ahead and try to get it boosted more... I don't care. I can fly a Deimos too. Just saying... it's not that bad with these changes.
boost it more? I don't want it changed. it's ok as it is tbh. ---
planetary interaction idea! |
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Kruel
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2008.02.05 22:30:00 -
[171]
TBH if I was balancing, I'd give it a 5/4/6 slot config and make med ecm drones less effective in the same patch.
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Darth Natus
Dark Tornado Synchr0nicity
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Posted - 2008.02.05 23:11:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Kruel With this change, the Deimos can have a tank like the Sacrilege while doing 140 dps more. The downside is that it has to get in web range every time. Sounds fine to me.
your point is flawed. firstly its a hideously inefficient active tanker due to cap, but thats been discussed enough. Your first and foremost flaw, is trying to tank it. The Deimos is all about gank, thats its nature, thats its purpose. So its GANK first and tank as an afterthought. Focussing on the tank on this ship is just prolonging ur enevitable death. your only really gonna be effective against targets u can kill with a T1 Thorax anyway, so why use the deimos? and if u wanna lose your firepower for tank, just fly a Sac, thats what a sac is for. or alternatively fly a phobos. A Deimos losing its gank is like a Vaga losing its speed or a Sac losing its tank. Its about supermaning your way up to ur target and kicking him in the balls. which is a damn bit more fun than sitting there with a half arsed attempt at a tank and waiting to die.
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doctorstupid2
Blood Corsair's Blood Blind
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Posted - 2008.02.05 23:22:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Here's an idea: change the armor rep bonus to 5% armor resists/level. Replace the 6th low, move the useless 6th high to a mid. Rebalance grid/cpu to match new layout.
That is how to fix the Deimos, not a nerf that nobody wants. An injector is better than the MWD cap bonus, and a resist bonus is the one that is actually useful for a plate tank like the Deimos normally uses. Make these changes, and nobody will ever be allowed to complain about the Deimos again.
Hah, I was thinking the exact same thing. Personally I've never felt the need to cap-boost a deimos, even pre-nosnerf, as it's cap is quite strong, but hey if it gets an extra mid i guess a sensor booster can't hurt. A resist bonus would indeed benefit it much more than a rep bonus, and losing the 6th low is, imo, unacceptable. won't somebody PLEASE think of the damage mods?!
MOVIES: Deadspace Deadspace 2 |
doctorstupid2
Blood Corsair's Blood Blind
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Posted - 2008.02.05 23:27:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Vyktor Abyss If you really want to boost the Deimos. Give it more powergrid.
I've got maxed fitting skills but am short of 74.9 grid when it comes to fitting an 800mm plate in the following setup (despite having an RCU II fitted!). 50, 75 or 100 grid more would be plenty.
High> 5 Heavy Neutron II, Salvager I Med> 10MN MWD II, x5 web, warp disrupt I Low> MAR II, EANM II, DCU II, Explo Hard II, RCU II (Free slot, 125.1 grid spare)
This setup is cap stable for a good 2 minutes+ with perfect cap skills.
All the below are for a Neutron II fit with an RCU II (A fair sacrifice IMHO for the extra DPS of Neutrons)
TERRIBLE.
for one, ions with a single mag field stab do more damage than neutrons. second, if you don't have at least 2 damage mods on a deimos, you're doing it wrong :P
MOVIES: Deadspace Deadspace 2 |
Hatch
Minmatar Cloak and Daggers
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Posted - 2008.02.06 02:16:00 -
[175]
Edited by: Hatch on 06/02/2008 02:17:32 so, how much is ccp planning to **** up this game. FFS quit screwing with **** that isn't broken and FIX THE DAMN BUGS AND FINESH THE MODELS
for all those jackasses who came from wow, go back! YOUR DUMBING DOWN A GAME THAT WAS MEANT TO BE COMPLICATED
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Inkv
Gallente OEG Red Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.06 02:26:00 -
[176]
CCP, please don't make it live on tranq, leave it alone, thanks
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Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.06 07:36:00 -
[177]
Originally by: doctorstupid2
Originally by: Vyktor Abyss If you really want to boost the Deimos. Give it more powergrid.
I've got maxed fitting skills but am short of 74.9 grid when it comes to fitting an 800mm plate in the following setup (despite having an RCU II fitted!). 50, 75 or 100 grid more would be plenty.
High> 5 Heavy Neutron II, Salvager I Med> 10MN MWD II, x5 web, warp disrupt I Low> MAR II, EANM II, DCU II, Explo Hard II, RCU II (Free slot, 125.1 grid spare)
This setup is cap stable for a good 2 minutes+ with perfect cap skills.
All the below are for a Neutron II fit with an RCU II (A fair sacrifice IMHO for the extra DPS of Neutrons)
TERRIBLE.
for one, ions with a single mag field stab do more damage than neutrons. second, if you don't have at least 2 damage mods on a deimos, you're doing it wrong :P
You really missed the point didn't you? - read on to the rest of the post and see I fly it with neutrons and 3 mag stabs ideally.
However that fitting is a fat tank fitting that also has its uses in certain situations: like when outnumbered where you might need more buffer hp. I use a plate often when flying the Deimos solo and regularly go against a couple cruisers plus a couple of intys or similar small gangs where you do need a buffer of hp. Extra powergrid gives you that buffer and still good DPS which if you'd read my whole post was what I was on about.
Try getting those resists a rep, with an 800mm plate buffer and doing that high DPS without Neutrons - I'd like to see that mate.
More options for different fittings are better than losing options which this "boosted" armour rep bonused Deimos does.
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Lionel Redstar
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Posted - 2008.02.06 09:21:00 -
[178]
/rant mode on Remove gallente because they do drone and blaster damage. Remove caldari because they do other things. Remove ammar becaure they are too weak. Remove minmatar because.. why not? Let's just remove everything, stick to shuttles and let's bump eachother till someone get borred and self destruct. /rant mode off
Now on topic. " If it ain't broken don't fix it " /signed
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Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.02.06 11:22:00 -
[179]
Originally by: doctorstupid2 TERRIBLE.
for one, ions with a single mag field stab do more damage than neutrons. second, if you don't have at least 2 damage mods on a deimos, you're doing it wrong :P
well 1 MFS + ions might do more damage than just neutrons.
...but a neutron setup packs usually 3 MFS, and last time I checked, that outdamages an ion setup by allot. ---
planetary interaction idea! |
aaron 619
Gallente DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.06 11:36:00 -
[180]
Crash and burn......ship after ship....and CCP loves to brake the game so as to try and make us take more time out of our already filled life's to figure a work around or cross train for the now "not as bad ship" just as to take more time in skill training. its all about the money at the end of the day, don't let CCP kid you for a minute, this is not a game, its there job to keep us paying, and this is how they do it.
WORK ONLINE, oops , I mean, EVE, wait?!?
If I can do it, so can you! If you choose not to, your fault, not mine! Stop Spamming the T1 Nerf Torp CCP. Invent a T2 boost Torp and use it! Balance is Important, EVE still being fun, Priceles |
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