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Price of shuttles ?!?

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Richard Third Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.04.16 02:57:00 - [121] now i'm building a shuttle. I'll be ready in 1 hour 14mins 12 seconds. CCP go off and die. Please. -- You can't do that with a Planet.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.04.16 03:01:00 - [122] WoOt! Time to reactive the mining division. Now if CCP would only hurry up and release the Orca. Why not.
Xroxor Minmatar Red Dwarf Mining Corps Rule of Three	Posted - 2008.04.16 03:08:00 - [123] LOL.. <Xroxor points finger at CCP> A fricken shuttle is twice the price of a t1 cruiser!... I guess someone in the planing committee FUBARed this one! If this drives up the price of trit.. imanage what t1 BS's and T2 ships will cost!
Kvirie Caldari Children of the Wind	Posted - 2008.04.16 03:09:00 - [124] So... in light of this any chance we can get the tier 3 mining barge's skill req lowered to level 4 from 5? I need to mine more veld, faster.
Yaay Game-Over Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.16 03:13:00 - [125] My god, Dianabolic is a Dev now? http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=619019IT'S THE ECONOMY STUPID
Lord Fitz Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.16 03:36:00 - [126] Edited by: Lord Fitz on 16/04/2008 03:36:40 Originally by: Comrade Commizzar What's a matter? Is the itty bitty PvP monster worried he can't really make it without the Carebears?? Or is he just reminding us all that he has been SUBSIDIZED by CCP all this time?? Hm?? Or maybe the Bourgoise T2/Moon Mining Pig is afraid of what the Proletariat of Eve might do if they get their hands on enough isk?? lol. Just lol. PvP Monster. ? There's nothing wrong with trit being high by itself, the problem is one of risk vs reward, the idea behind the original mineral values was that higher risk activities give a greater reward. The problem has been through interference in the price of higher end materials via things like the drone regions, the price of those has dropped, this means that the lower end materials must come up in price due to the insurance default payout subsidising them. It also means that you make more mining in highsec than lowsec. That's just plain broken. I don't mine, I don't PvP much either, hell I don't do alot of alot of things anymore, but I have done abit of everything and I'm accutely aware of how each change affects everything else. From a market point of view, removing NPC sell order is good, it encourages trade, production, newer players can build shuttles and make good profit, because for older players, even if they sell for 200% profit, the time taken to build a shuttle is too long and valuable to tie up one of their build slots. This is all good. But the fact that it's being removed because we're hitting an artifical price cap is flawed thinking. When shuttles were originally put in, 3.6 isk/unit for trit was considered something that would never be hit, CCP had target values for minerals, and the distribution of them vs the demand ensured that while they would change, if they got too high, people would switch to mining a different ore that was more profitable, and the price would stabilise. This wouldn't be CCP keeping the prices stable, it would be a natural market phenomenom. Price caps wouldn't exist because the proportion would be relatively stable due to inbuilt supply/demand ratios. CCP have been messing with these ratios, which has been causing problems, the symptom of these problems was that refining shuttles ended up being a good way to get tritanium. The problem in reality is that there were no other good ways of getting it, but the economist has no concept of a market where you can increase the amount of oil on the planet, he simply sees a fixed world, and sees a cap that shouldn't be there (and it shouldn't). A player driven economy providing oppertunities for new players is a great thing, I just don't think the person making this particular decision made it in the right order.
Comrade Commizzar	Posted - 2008.04.16 03:56:00 - [127] Edited by: Comrade Commizzar on 16/04/2008 03:56:35 Originally by: Lord Fitz Edited by: Lord Fitz on 16/04/2008 03:36:40 Originally by: Comrade Commizzar What's a matter? Is the itty bitty PvP monster worried he can't really make it without the Carebears?? Or is he just reminding us all that he has been SUBSIDIZED by CCP all this time?? Hm?? Or maybe the Bourgoise T2/Moon Mining Pig is afraid of what the Proletariat of Eve might do if they get their hands on enough isk?? lol. Just lol. PvP Monster. ? There's nothing wrong with trit being high by itself, the problem is one of risk vs reward, the idea behind the original mineral values was that higher risk activities give a greater reward. The problem has been through interference in the price of higher end materials via things like the drone regions, the price of those has dropped, this means that the lower end materials must come up in price due to the insurance default payout subsidising them. It also means that you make more mining in highsec than lowsec. That's just plain broken. I don't mine, I don't PvP much either, hell I don't do alot of alot of things anymore, but I have done abit of everything and I'm accutely aware of how each change affects everything else. From a market point of view, removing NPC sell order is good, it encourages trade, production, newer players can build shuttles and make good profit, because for older players, even if they sell for 200% profit, the time taken to build a shuttle is too long and valuable to tie up one of their build slots. This is all good. But the fact that it's being removed because we're hitting an artifical price cap is flawed thinking. When shuttles were originally put in, 3.6 isk/unit for trit was considered something that would never be hit, CCP had target values for minerals, and the distribution of them vs the demand ensured that while they would change, if they got too high, people would switch to mining a different ore that was more profitable, and the price would stabilise. This wouldn't be CCP keeping the prices stable, it would be a natural market phenomenom. Price caps wouldn't exist because the proportion would be relatively stable due to inbuilt supply/demand ratios. CCP have been messing with these ratios, which has been causing problems, the symptom of these problems was that refining shuttles ended up being a good way to get tritanium. The problem in reality is that there were no other good ways of getting it, but the economist has no concept of a market where you can increase the amount of oil on the planet, he simply sees a fixed world, and sees a cap that shouldn't be there (and it shouldn't). A player driven economy providing oppertunities for new players is a great thing, I just don't think the person making this particular decision made it in the right order. ****************** ROTFLMAO! A CAPITALIST PIG ARGUING AGAINST THE FREE MARKET! Join us now Comrade Fitz and perhaps we will not hang you with a rope you sold us!!
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.04.16 04:00:00 - [128] NPC's stopped selling them to remove the price cap of trit of 3.6. So we are seing a small hickup while the market regulates itself and people starts producing shuttles. Everything will be as normal in 2 weeks. Just hold on guys
Animin Mannja	Posted - 2008.04.16 04:07:00 - [129] What would be great is if we could get stats in a few days showing how people reacted. How the average price of shuttles skyrocketed, how many of those actually sold, how many BPOs were snatched up and how many tens of thousands of shuttles are being manufactured.
suzie stormbringer	Posted - 2008.04.16 04:18:00 - [130] Some people in my mains corporation like to go mining.Is it not time for the goonies to stop blowing up exhumers.
papamikeforthewin Amarr	Posted - 2008.04.16 04:20:00 - [131] Originally by: Lord Fitz ? There's nothing wrong with trit being high by itself, the problem is one of risk vs reward, the idea behind the original mineral values was that higher risk activities give a greater reward. I doubt we will be seeing a flood of 0.0 miners heading for a 0.8 near you any time soon. They still make more, far more. Issues of high sec vs low sec risk are somewhat more complex than getting to scrap for those last few trit rocks.
Iracham Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.04.16 04:43:00 - [132] Almost every mission has piles of veld roids used as scenery, there's no shortage of rocks.
Richard Third Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.04.16 04:59:00 - [133] each shuttle takes roughly 1 hour to make....do you think this is why I can't find a manufacturing slot for days? -- You can't do that with a Planet.
Raymond Sterns	Posted - 2008.04.16 05:03:00 - [134] Edited by: Raymond Sterns on 16/04/2008 05:04:25 Edited by: Raymond Sterns on 16/04/2008 05:03:57 Let's use this Analogy: EvE Economy = Table Shuttle Problem = Short Leg = Creaky Table The correct approach would be to either make a new table leg (New Price) or put something under the leg (Make shuttles unrefinable) so it stops being creaky (fubar). The wrong approach is grabbing a hatchet, chopping the table leg in tiny pieces (removing seeded shuttles from stations), and expect it to grow back. The only way this gets fixed is if someone comes along and fixes it for you (People start making shuttles en-masse and post them all over) or if you fix it yourself (Put it back to the way it was + fix). Not only will this decrease PVP for non-hardcore players, it will completely kill any willingness to go outside of your home system/region to pvp (little way to get back if you lose or decide to leave a ship there). It's a fix, but it's like claiming you fixed the weed problem on your backyard by pouring lighter fluid all over it and lighting it on fire. All your pie are belong to me!
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2008.04.16 05:09:00 - [135] Edited by: Soporo on 16/04/2008 05:15:28 Best guess: What will Trit end up stabilizing at? One would assume the NEXT lowest cost/highest trit refineable npc sold market item... So nothing really changes, eh? Trit moves a few points or a couple isk is all or am I way off base?
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.04.16 05:35:00 - [136] Originally by: Soporo Edited by: Soporo on 16/04/2008 05:15:28 Best guess: What will Trit end up stabilizing at? One would assume the NEXT lowest cost/highest trit refineable npc sold market item... So nothing really changes, eh? Trit moves a few points or a couple isk is all or am I way off base? 2 things could happen: 1. Trit will sky-rocket to the next cap, which im reliably informed is 8.49(I can't deny theres a lower cap) 2. Market will be shaky the next month or two, will eventually get more stable and level off at around 4 id imagine.
Shar'Tuk TheHated	Posted - 2008.04.16 05:36:00 - [137] OH NO THE SKY IS FALLING! No select leave ship (get in your damn pod) and dock at a station where you have no assets. Whats this?? Limitless rookie ships and you make 1 trit out of thin air!?
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.04.16 05:38:00 - [138] Originally by: Shar'Tuk TheHated OH NO THE SKY IS FALLING! No select leave ship (get in your damn pod) and dock at a station where you have no assets. Whats this?? Limitless rookie ships and you make 1 trit out of thin air!? Zomg, nerf rookie-ships tbfh ()
P'uck	Posted - 2008.04.16 05:44:00 - [139] im so happy im minmatar now. i get free reapers everywhere, and they have a speed bonus, too! i used to envy gallente players for their steady supply of overpowered velators, but see whos LAUGHING NOW
Shar'Tuk TheHated	Posted - 2008.04.16 05:48:00 - [140] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Shar'Tuk TheHated OH NO THE SKY IS FALLING! No select leave ship (get in your damn pod) and dock at a station where you have no assets. Whats this?? Limitless rookie ships and you make 1 trit out of thin air!? Zomg, nerf rookie-ships tbfh () ZOMG, Quick grab the nerf bat.. to the nerf mobile!
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.04.16 05:51:00 - [141] Originally by: P'uck im so happy im minmatar now. i get free reapers everywhere, and they have a speed bonus, too! i used to envy gallente players for their steady supply of overpowered velators, but see whos LAUGHING NOW This made my day
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2008.04.16 06:00:00 - [142] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Soporo Edited by: Soporo on 16/04/2008 05:15:28 Best guess: What will Trit end up stabilizing at? One would assume the NEXT lowest cost/highest trit refineable npc sold market item... So nothing really changes, eh? Trit moves a few points or a couple isk is all or am I way off base? 2 things could happen: 1. Trit will sky-rocket to the next cap, which im reliably informed is 8.49(I can't deny theres a lower cap) 2. Market will be shaky the next month or two, will eventually get more stable and level off at around 4 id imagine. Cool, both of those are agreeable to me (short term). Long term...fek if I know.
Faife Blackrain Solutions Twilight Trade Cartel	Posted - 2008.04.16 06:01:00 - [143] ITT: 10% people seeing opportunity, and 90% fail.
Karanth Gallente Eve's Brothers of Destiny Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.04.16 06:11:00 - [144] That sound? That's me, happy in the pants over this. The awesomeness of this change is indescribable.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.16 06:17:00 - [145] Originally by: Lord Fitz Edited by: Lord Fitz on 16/04/2008 01:21:41 Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Shuttles have apparently been removed from the NPC markets because they were acting as a price cap for Tritanium. The idiocy of it all is that this was showing that CCP was not providing enough supply for tritanium through ingame means, they talked about all sorts of serious fixes for this, but instead settled on the easiest worst possible solution which was thought of by an economist who has no concept of what makes a game different from a real world economy. The side effect will probably be, no one goes to 0.0 or lowsec at all, mining veld in 1.0 sec will be the most profitable mining around. Edit: dropping the cap probably isn't a bad idea, but the cap shouldn't be necessary, Tritanium as the most abundant mineral in eve should be cheap, it should be cheap because there is ample supply NOT because there is a cap. If they fixed the supply issue the cap wouldn't be an issue in the first place. The price of tritamium is not determined by availability but by: 1) time needed to get it (no one will mine it for a too low hourly payout); 2) ease of moving it around (no one want to move a freighter of tritanium for 10 jumps for a 1 million gain). So the price climb till is near enough to the next worthwhile activity that it feel rewarding.
Eternal Hatred Amarr Pantsu Garu Limited Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.16 06:27:00 - [146] Once again CCP prove us that they simply CANNOT fine tune their "so-called-game". Instead of going the right way around this problem, they smashed it without thinking more wider aspect. What about lowsec people moving around? What about people moving around taking ships and stuff from places? What about ... Now we see total-hell-death-what-ever-eve-meme effect on this. BEST way to deal with trit cap would have been following: * Make that NPC's sells ONE shuttle at the time, so there is infinite number of shuttles but one can be bought at the time like station containers now. * Same cost price but it will refine to 1 trit or they are unrefinable like noob ships. This way, it would not have huge effects to other parts of game but only to trits hard cap. You fail CCP, YOU FAIL!
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.04.16 06:29:00 - [147] Interesting that people haven't thought of the part where pirates now get more targets with indies hauling shuttles into lowsec.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.16 06:35:00 - [148] Originally by: Eternal Hatred Once again CCP prove us that they simply CANNOT fine tune their "so-called-game". Instead of going the right way around this problem, they smashed it without thinking more wider aspect. What about lowsec people moving around? What about people moving around taking ships and stuff from places? What about ... Now we see total-hell-death-what-ever-eve-meme effect on this. BEST way to deal with trit cap would have been following: * Make that NPC's sells ONE shuttle at the time, so there is infinite number of shuttles but one can be bought at the time like station containers now. * Same cost price but it will refine to 1 trit or they are unrefinable like noob ships. This way, it would not have huge effects to other parts of game but only to trits hard cap. You fail CCP, YOU FAIL! People in low sec will do like people in a area of low sec where they know the wrong T1 frigate. Use other ships or the noob frigate. Eve if the sell order is 1 item, if you put a buy order for 10.000 items of that kind at 0,01 isk more than the NPC sell price, your order get satisfied ultra fast till the price go above the buy order you have set. I have done it both with buy orders of NPC stuff and sell orders to NPC (selling 10K gallente cars in less than a second to a buy order of 100). As soon as the NPC buy/sell order is satisfied it is replaced by another in the same location and sometime with a small change in price.
P'uck	Posted - 2008.04.16 06:46:00 - [149] Edited by: P''uck on 16/04/2008 06:52:22 Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Frug This is a good change. To whoever earlier thought rookie ships would just replace shuttles because of this change, you don't really know what you're talking about. No I think that the fast T1 frigate of each race will replace shuttles in high sec, interceptor in low sec. well the noobship wont replace the shuttle when it comes to being a supply of trit. also it cannot be put on market or contracted atm and thats why it can be a pain to get one when theres only one station / outpost around and you have ten ships there. but for me, personally, the reaper has replaced the shuttle for a long time now. iirc it has the same base agility as a stiletto. also it has a bigger cargo and is only marginally slower than a shuttle. edit; not to forget, most importantly its CHEAPER what am i missing here? because i have to admit i have no clue what Frug is on about. the more i think about it, the more i have to ask myself why minmatar folks buy shuttles AT ALL. the other noobships have bad speed, okay, but the reaper is fastish. can even fit a wedged down AB/MWD hotkey and a nano/overdrive.
Sim'a Nuk Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2008.04.16 06:51:00 - [150] shuttle - ME0, PE0 = 3375 trit. 1 minute old eng. alt = 4 manufacturing slots price of shuttle bpo 45.000,00 ISK manufacturing time = 1h 40min/shuttle Do the math, every industrial carebear noob can have 12 manufacturing slots on 1 account. He mines veld in his retriever, refines it and hauls 1.17M of trit (3GSC in Iteron 3) to every nearby station with manufacturing slot. 1.17 M of trit equals to 346 shuttles produced with a character with PE0 from bpo with ME0... in 2 days shuttles will be back very soon

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