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Author |
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Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.12 01:03:00 -
[241]
Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 12/06/2008 01:07:42
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 12/06/2008 00:48:36
Not true - a private list is private, and breaking privacy on such a list short of admission of criminal acts(and I mean real crime, not the odd joint or jaywalk) is a really low thing to do - both on Darius' part and on yours. If you can't keep a secret, you won't get to see any in future.
Besides, breaking privacy on what happens on such a list just shows a lack of imagination - we have a history in the CSM now of issues being added via CSM member request on the forums. If Darius wanted to ***** about Jade not adding this issue, he should have just calmly posted a link to it in the Meeting 5 thread on Jita Park, and asked for it to be heard at that meeting. The private is kept private, and the same ends are achieved. Everybody who needs to know what happened still does, and he comes out of it looking better and embarrassing Jade even more to the other CSMs that would be the case otherwise. Not only is it stupid and immature to break privacy on the list, it shows a terrible deficiency of deftness.
There has never been any, implied or otherwise, expectation of privacy on the mailing list. I talked with people about what we were discussing, as I'm sure others have. I have friends. I tell them what I'm doing. Now if I went and forwarded all the emails I'd agree that would have been wrong. But merely saying "Hey here's what I was discussing" is far from a breach of privacy and I submit that the only reason people are taking umbrage with it is that they're ashamed of themselves and their actions. They should be.
:edit: I'd like to note as well that you were aware of this before ever posting your response and acting ignorant because I told you. Yesterday. I also included everyone else on the mailing list in that statement. OH MY GOD IVE DONE IT AGAIN!!!!
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Anthony Pants
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Posted - 2008.06.12 01:07:00 -
[242]
Originally by: Nynaeve Ares If the majority of CSM believes you incapable of doing your job and disruptive you should step down, it shouldn't have to fall to CCP to tell you that.
BUT IT IS HIS JOB TO TELL THEM HOW TO BEHAVE AND THEY HAVE BEEN MISBEHAVING NAUGHTY LITTLE CHILDREN AND ARE DESERVING OF A TIME-OUT |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.12 01:14:00 -
[243]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON There has never been any, implied or otherwise, expectation of privacy on the mailing list. I talked with people about what we were discussing, as I'm sure others have. I have friends. I tell them what I'm doing. Now if I went and forwarded all the emails I'd agree that would have been wrong. But merely saying "Hey here's what I was discussing" is far from a breach of privacy and I submit that the only reason people are taking umbrage with it is that they're ashamed of themselves and their actions. They should be.
:edit: I'd like to note as well that you were aware of this before ever posting your response and acting ignorant because I told you. Yesterday. I also included everyone else on the mailing list in that statement. OH MY GOD IVE DONE IT AGAIN!!!!
If you mentioned it to Aprudena with the expectation of privacy then I'll largely let you off the hook - I don't mind confidantes. But it's still on you to make sure that it doesn't go public.
Also, I'm not sure that you're referring to me with the edit - we've never had a conversation of any type that wasn't through these forums, so I doubt that you've told em anything. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
Pnuka
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.12 01:17:00 -
[244]
Edited by: Pnuka on 12/06/2008 01:18:25
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON There has never been any, implied or otherwise, expectation of privacy on the mailing list. I talked with people about what we were discussing, as I'm sure others have. I have friends. I tell them what I'm doing. Now if I went and forwarded all the emails I'd agree that would have been wrong. But merely saying "Hey here's what I was discussing" is far from a breach of privacy and I submit that the only reason people are taking umbrage with it is that they're ashamed of themselves and their actions. They should be.
I think you should view the terms of service you agreed with when you signed up to that mailing list Darius. Serenity is the provider of that mailing list and you should go and have a read of his last message before you continue this line of argument.
You might also want to review your decision to raise the publication of emails from that list on sundays agenda. Up to you, but might save us all some time.
Are you threatening to have him sued?
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Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.12 01:17:00 -
[245]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
I think you should view the terms of service you agreed with when you signed up to that mailing list Darius. Serenity is the provider of that mailing list and you should go and have a read of his last message before you continue this line of argument.
You might also want to review your decision to raise the publication of emails from that list on sundays agenda. Up to you, but might save us all some time.
You read my response to this exact question yesterday. That's fine though I'm not afraid of it being public. I republished nothing. Therefore I've violated no terms of service. If serenity wants to remove the email account I don't need and never asked for that's his business. One less mailbox for me to monitor.
I still intend to motion to have the emails published on Sunday. It's not mine or the CSMs problem if Serenity's mail system ends up being incompatible with the needs of the CSM. In that case we picked the wrong tool for the job.
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Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.12 01:19:00 -
[246]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
If you mentioned it to Aprudena with the expectation of privacy then I'll largely let you off the hook - I don't mind confidantes. But it's still on you to make sure that it doesn't go public.
Also, I'm not sure that you're referring to me with the edit - we've never had a conversation of any type that wasn't through these forums, so I doubt that you've told em anything.
Sorry on the last point. I was talking to Jade. Regarding the expectation of privacy... The conversation was mentioned on a private forum but so what? If I decide to share my discussions with others that's my prerogative. I'm a PUBLIC OFFICIAL. My voters have a right to know what the council is doing.
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Olga Mokroff
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Posted - 2008.06.12 01:25:00 -
[247]
quality drama here. moar plox
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.12 01:31:00 -
[248]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Sorry on the last point. I was talking to Jade. Regarding the expectation of privacy... The conversation was mentioned on a private forum but so what? If I decide to share my discussions with others that's my prerogative. I'm a PUBLIC OFFICIAL. My voters have a right to know what the council is doing.
I assumed something like that had happened.
As for the "it's my right" defence, it probably is, but I wasn't arguing legalities or even moralities. I was just saying that's not how you should do business - public is public, private is private, and never the twain shall meet. Even if you had the right to republish every CSM internal email of your own accord, you would not be right to do so. It's one of those unwritten rules about how to conduct yourself in general, and in politics in particular - don't rat people out and break confidences without a damn good reason. |
sakana
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.12 01:36:00 -
[249]
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Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.12 01:39:00 -
[250]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
I assumed something like that had happened.
As for the "it's my right" defence, it probably is, but I wasn't arguing legalities or even moralities. I was just saying that's not how you should do business - public is public, private is private, and never the twain shall meet. Even if you had the right to republish every CSM internal email of your own accord, you would not be right to do so. It's one of those unwritten rules about how to conduct yourself in general, and in politics in particular - don't rat people out and break confidences without a damn good reason.
I had no reason to believe any confidences existed. Now the point is moot because I've made it clear that nothing said to me is private when it comes to council discussion. Again... nothing whatsoever save some of my OWN emails was published. All of this was known and explained to the entire council yesterday. A good question would be why is Jade feigning shock and indignance today? This is old news at this point. |
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.12 01:43:00 -
[251]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON I had no reason to believe any confidences existed. Now the point is moot because I've made it clear that nothing said to me is private when it comes to council discussion. Again... nothing whatsoever save some of my OWN emails was published. All of this was known and explained to the entire council yesterday. A good question would be why is Jade feigning shock and indignance today? This is old news at this point.
As long as you've made that clear, fine. I'm sure the 8-man mailing list will get lots of traffic. As for Jade's reaction, I haven't seen too much shock, and the indignance could well be legit. |
Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.12 01:46:00 -
[252]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
As long as you've made that clear, fine. I'm sure the 8-man mailing list will get lots of traffic. As for Jade's reaction, I haven't seen too much shock, and the indignance could well be legit.
Here I'll quote the bits I'm referring to for you:
Originally by: Jade Constantine Really, he was talking about things on our private e-mail list? Thats a little bit unprofessional.
Originally by: Jade Constantine Well you said he told you what I said too? I didn't give permission for him to talk about my emails.
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.12 01:47:00 -
[253]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto As long as you've made that clear, fine. I'm sure the 8-man mailing list will get lots of traffic. As for Jade's reaction, I haven't seen too much shock, and the indignance could well be legit.
Not much shock thats true. And not much actual drama. I think its poor to break confidences once agreed though.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.12 01:50:00 -
[254]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
As long as you've made that clear, fine. I'm sure the 8-man mailing list will get lots of traffic. As for Jade's reaction, I haven't seen too much shock, and the indignance could well be legit.
Here I'll quote the bits I'm referring to for you:
Originally by: Jade Constantine Really, he was talking about things on our private e-mail list? Thats a little bit unprofessional.
Originally by: Jade Constantine Well you said he told you what I said too? I didn't give permission for him to talk about my emails.
Okay, yeah, if what you say is true then he's hamming that up. |
Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.12 01:53:00 -
[255]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Okay, yeah, if what you say is true then he's hamming that up.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=792898&page=8#226
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=792898&page=8#228
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=792898&page=8#231 |
Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.12 01:54:00 -
[256]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Not much shock thats true. And not much actual drama. I think its poor to break confidences once agreed though.
Don't imply that I've agreed to anything. I haven't and you know that. I said as much in the email you're pretending I didn't send yesterday. |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.12 02:00:00 -
[257]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Okay, yeah, if what you say is true then he's hamming that up.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=792898&page=8#226
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=792898&page=8#228
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=792898&page=8#231
I wasn't referring to your Jade quotes with the "if what you say is true", I was referring to the bit about how the Council already knew. |
teji
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Posted - 2008.06.12 02:04:00 -
[258]
Edited by: teji on 12/06/2008 02:04:46 We have a long way to go. I bolded where we are at. The silly part is Jade has brought this grief upon his or her self.
* Denial * Anger * Bargaining * Depression * Acceptance |
Pnuka
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.12 02:05:00 -
[259]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Okay, yeah, if what you say is true then he's hamming that up.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=792898&page=8#226
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=792898&page=8#228
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=792898&page=8#231
I wasn't referring to your Jade quotes with the "if what you say is true", I was referring to the bit about how the Council already knew.
Well, add this to another reason Jade will be voting against releasing them. |
Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.12 02:06:00 -
[260]
Originally by: Pnuka
Well, add this to another reason Jade will be voting against releasing them.
They're MY emails. Jade's consent doesn't come into play. Nor does anyone else's. |
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Anton Marvik
AnTi. Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.06.12 02:06:00 -
[261]
Edited by: Anton Marvik on 12/06/2008 02:06:57 Edited by: Anton Marvik on 12/06/2008 02:06:43 Quick, somebody go back and find those posts where Jade was saying he supported full transparency and such. I'm getting lazy.
Also, I support my own topic. |
Kul Teras
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.06.12 03:04:00 -
[262]
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Virtuoso DeToure
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.12 03:07:00 -
[263]
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Anthony Pants
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Posted - 2008.06.12 03:29:00 -
[264]
Originally by: Anton Marvik Edited by: Anton Marvik on 12/06/2008 02:06:57 Edited by: Anton Marvik on 12/06/2008 02:06:43 Quick, somebody go back and find those posts where Jade was saying he supported full transparency and such. I'm getting lazy.
Also, I support my own topic.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=779999&page=1#3
Originally by: Jade Constantine We could perhaps snip the material before the formal beginning of the meeting and after the formal closing of the meeting Inanna - thats just chatter in the main.
But I must admit I'm personally a believer in complete transparency in these matters and I think the electorate do deserve to see how we conduct ourselves in the course of formal meetings. Who knows, perhaps knowing that we are open to full scrutiny might even help us all better focus on the task at hand. Its also possible that the electorate actually seeing us in the process of discussions in the CSM context will gain a better understanding of the task and issues and be more sympathetic to the challenges we all face. On principle though, would you be for or against (or abstain) on the issue of publicizing the raw meeting log Inanna? I'd like a quick show of hands on the issue please.
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Anton Marvik
AnTi. Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.06.12 03:31:00 -
[265]
o/\o |
Nagi Sanzenin
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Posted - 2008.06.12 04:12:00 -
[266]
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Qlanth
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.12 04:57:00 -
[267]
What is the constitution that Jade keeps talking about? Was it written by the council? Was it written by CCP? Can anyone link to it? |
Fallorn
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.12 05:28:00 -
[268]
Their is no constitution he made it up. |
Phaeydra
Bat Country Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2008.06.12 06:33:00 -
[269]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON In that case we picked the wrong tool for the job.
I guess we all know that feeling.
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Samuel Harrow
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.06.12 07:00:00 -
[270]
Edited by: Samuel Harrow on 12/06/2008 07:00:34
Originally by: Phaeydra
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON In that case we picked the wrong tool for the job.
I guess we all know that feeling.
But I think we can all say that a tool certainly was picked for this job....
Supported. |
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