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Anton Marvik
AnTi. Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.06.09 15:34:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Anton Marvik on 09/06/2008 15:40:15 Edited by: Anton Marvik on 09/06/2008 15:36:58 The Random People of the Assembly Hall,
Recognising the Chairperson's responsibilities are crucial to the effectiveness of the CSM,
Noting Further these responsibilities include unbiased judgment, maturity, and professionalism,
Deeply disturbed by the actions of the current chair, Jade Constantine, in CSM Meeting Three and during the time since, including editorializing at the time of the meeting, muting an elected CSM representative who spoke out against said editorializing,
Further deploring Jade Constantine's failure to take responsibility for said failures as Chairperson, as well as his threatening of further immature and reprehensible actions,
Desiring a successful and effective CSM,
1. Calls upon the CSM to undertake an immediate vote for the removal of Jade Constantine from Chair;
2. Further invites the CSM to duly elect a new Chairperson;
3. Regrets the necessity of these actions;
4. Further reminds the CSM representatives that they are responsible to the entirety of the EVE playerbase to make the CSM a success;
5. Expresses its hope that the CSM will be more successful in the future.
Yeah. I have too much free time. Aside from the manner in which it is written I think it speaks for itself. The thread for CSM Meeting 3, with relevant Jadeisms, can be found here - http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=788122&page=5
If Jade can't take responsibility for her actions, there is no hope that she will avoid those actions in the future, especially as Jade has threatened to be even MORE childish in her future.
Originally by: Jade Constantine The lesson learned from that last meeting is for the Chair to be firmer, sooner, and take a much more vigorous hand in preventing unrecognized interruptions from the representatives
Tl;dr The Chair is CRUCIAL, there is limited time for the CSM to get their job done, Jade is a failure as the Chair, needs to be replaced ASAP.
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Anton Marvik
AnTi. Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.06.09 15:34:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Anton Marvik on 09/06/2008 15:40:15 Edited by: Anton Marvik on 09/06/2008 15:36:58 The Random People of the Assembly Hall,
Recognising the Chairperson's responsibilities are crucial to the effectiveness of the CSM,
Noting Further these responsibilities include unbiased judgment, maturity, and professionalism,
Deeply disturbed by the actions of the current chair, Jade Constantine, in CSM Meeting Three and during the time since, including editorializing at the time of the meeting, muting an elected CSM representative who spoke out against said editorializing,
Further deploring Jade Constantine's failure to take responsibility for said failures as Chairperson, as well as his threatening of further immature and reprehensible actions,
Desiring a successful and effective CSM,
1. Calls upon the CSM to undertake an immediate vote for the removal of Jade Constantine from Chair;
2. Further invites the CSM to duly elect a new Chairperson;
3. Regrets the necessity of these actions;
4. Further reminds the CSM representatives that they are responsible to the entirety of the EVE playerbase to make the CSM a success;
5. Expresses its hope that the CSM will be more successful in the future.
Yeah. I have too much free time. Aside from the manner in which it is written I think it speaks for itself. The thread for CSM Meeting 3, with relevant Jadeisms, can be found here - http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=788122&page=5
If Jade can't take responsibility for her actions, there is no hope that she will avoid those actions in the future, especially as Jade has threatened to be even MORE childish in her future.
Originally by: Jade Constantine The lesson learned from that last meeting is for the Chair to be firmer, sooner, and take a much more vigorous hand in preventing unrecognized interruptions from the representatives
Tl;dr The Chair is CRUCIAL, there is limited time for the CSM to get their job done, Jade is a failure as the Chair, needs to be replaced ASAP.
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.09 15:45:00 -
[3]
Here's how you do it.
1. Get your CSM reps to pass the CSM electable chair issue to the constitution in Iceland. 2. Hold the election for chair and hope the CSM reps choose another chair. 3. result.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.09 15:45:00 -
[4]
Here's how you do it.
1. Get your CSM reps to pass the CSM electable chair issue to the constitution in Iceland. 2. Hold the election for chair and hope the CSM reps choose another chair. 3. result.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Anton Marvik
AnTi. Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.06.09 15:51:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Here's how you do it.
1. Get your CSM reps to pass the CSM electable chair issue to the constitution in Iceland. 2. Hold the election for chair and hope the CSM reps choose another chair. 3. result.
There is nothing indicating in the CSM constitution that if this resolution were to pass it would be invalid. Furthermore, there is nothing indicating in the CSM constitution that an amendment would be necessary to replace the Chairperson.
\o/ Legalese.
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Anton Marvik
AnTi. Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.06.09 15:51:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Here's how you do it.
1. Get your CSM reps to pass the CSM electable chair issue to the constitution in Iceland. 2. Hold the election for chair and hope the CSM reps choose another chair. 3. result.
There is nothing indicating in the CSM constitution that if this resolution were to pass it would be invalid. Furthermore, there is nothing indicating in the CSM constitution that an amendment would be necessary to replace the Chairperson.
\o/ Legalese.
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Viktor Amand
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Posted - 2008.06.09 15:53:00 -
[7]
i support this wholeheartedly
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Viktor Amand
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Posted - 2008.06.09 15:53:00 -
[8]
i support this wholeheartedly
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Furb Killer
USC Militia
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Posted - 2008.06.09 15:55:00 -
[9]
Quote: Yeah. I have too much free time.
No ****
Can we just wait a couple meetings before we act like world is going to end?
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Furb Killer
USC Militia
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Posted - 2008.06.09 15:55:00 -
[10]
Quote: Yeah. I have too much free time.
No ****
Can we just wait a couple meetings before we act like world is going to end?
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Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2008.06.09 15:59:00 -
[11]
Nah, removing Jade is as counterproductive as allowing the council to simply re-elect chair and members.
Whatever happens CCP will claim it was a success as part of their ham-handed philosophy of player content as king. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
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Adonis 4174
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Posted - 2008.06.09 16:04:00 -
[12]
I don't expect the CSM would vote Jade out because it would add a whole new layer of stressfulness to their positions if that kind of thing happenned. ---- Infiniband can do more than just prevent lag |
Vanessa Vale
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Posted - 2008.06.09 16:05:00 -
[13]
I have not read that thread but I have read the chat logs for the 3rd meeting. And as I progressed I went from blinking to, "this is ****" to literally being left speechless and with a gaping mouth. How can this person be chairman?
Also his behaviour towards Inanna Zuni (which I do not know or have had no contact) is a total shame. Along with Serenity Steele trailing along.
Appalling. And even more so when you realize this is real world behaviour and that has real life names attached to it.
Minmatar Boost Brigade |
Pnuka
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 16:16:00 -
[14]
The fact a goon wasn't muted or warned first is going to really open some eyes I think.
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Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 16:26:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 09/06/2008 16:26:08
Originally by: Anton Marvik
There is nothing indicating in the CSM constitution that if this resolution were to pass it would be invalid. Furthermore, there is nothing indicating in the CSM constitution that an amendment would be necessary to replace the Chairperson.
\o/ Legalese.
I'll add to that by noting that there is no CSM Constitution. It's a word that was tossed out and made up at the last meeting. There is also nothing preventing a chairman from stepping down. As a matter of fact it may actually be explicitly written into the founding document with a vote for the new chairman as an obvious fallback. I do not have the document in front of me so the above may be partially inaccurate, but I find it a tad disingenuous that one would refer to the documentation in this instance when we can "fill in the blanks" when it comes to assigning one's self undefined powers.
In other words this is all possible today without a doubt. As a matter of fact that was also mentioned during yesterday's meeting.
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Theel Maas
Errant Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.09 16:36:00 -
[16]
No. Vote differently next time.
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Drago Vanguard
Vanguard Corporation
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Posted - 2008.06.09 16:40:00 -
[17]
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Theramin Dogon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 17:18:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Erotic Irony Nah, removing Jade is as counterproductive as allowing the council to simply re-elect chair and members.
Whatever happens CCP will claim it was a success as part of their ham-handed philosophy of player content as king.
Why would you have to re-elect anyone? Just give the person with the second-most votes (Hardin) the chair and give the first alternate a seat on the council. |
Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2008.06.09 17:21:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Theramin Dogon
Originally by: Erotic Irony Nah, removing Jade is as counterproductive as allowing the council to simply re-elect chair and members.
Whatever happens CCP will claim it was a success as part of their ham-handed philosophy of player content as king.
Why would you have to re-elect anyone? Just give the person with the second-most votes (Hardin) the chair and give the first alternate a seat on the council.
The re-elect idea was a Jade proposal that seems to be all the rage. v0v ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.06.09 17:55:00 -
[20]
Frankly, all 'please remove the chair we don't like them' petitions should be tossed out on principle.
As long as there is a mechanism for the CSM itself to choose elect the chair of their choosing, it's silly to have endless petitions from aggrieved players to remove whoever happens to be chair at the moment.
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Allaria Kriss
Elipse Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.09 18:06:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Ulstan Frankly, all 'please remove the chair we don't like them' petitions should be tossed out on principle.
As long as there is a mechanism for the CSM itself to choose elect the chair of their choosing, it's silly to have endless petitions from aggrieved players to remove whoever happens to be chair at the moment.
There isn't one.
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Ethaet
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.06.09 18:27:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Ethaet on 09/06/2008 18:28:47 After reading the chatlog, I support this. 'Warning' and then muting people for no reason is not right unless there is a valid reason.
I maybe just be paranoid, but anyone notice this was between two of the RPers on the CSM? Keep your RP sentiments out of the CSM. -------------------------------------------------------------- Seriously, we need some kind of separation between the post and signature. There you go. Now that wasn't so hard |
Baron Levian
Bloodveil BLOOD EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.06.09 18:30:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Ethaet Edited by: Ethaet on 09/06/2008 18:28:47 After reading the chatlog, I support this. 'Warning' and then muting people for no reason is not right unless there is a valid reason.
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Inanna Zuni
The Causality Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.06.09 18:32:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Pnuka The fact a goon wasn't muted or warned first is going to really open some eyes I think.
One person has commented to me that they wondered whether that was because I have made it very clear I am not on the CSM as a representative of my corp / alliance and so wouldn't wardec Jade's lot.
"You might say that, I couldn't possibly comment" is all I can say.
IZ
My principles |
Heartstone
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.09 18:54:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Inanna Zuni
One person has commented to me that they wondered whether that was because I have made it very clear I am not on the CSM as a representative of my corp / alliance and so wouldn't wardec Jade's lot.
"You might say that, I couldn't possibly comment" is all I can say.
Whist I personally think Jade was incorrect for a number of reason to mute you I would like to take this particular opportunity to ask you to leave that area well alone. If the Goons or any other alliance/corp represented on the CSM decided to war dec Star Fraction for a slight on the CSM I would expect most of the allaince would do two things. First laugh at people not being able to keep out of game activites out of game and secondly cheers for a free war. And whilst you may wish to quote a certain 80's TV show in regards to your opinion on this subject it is quite clear what you are implying by bringing it up.
Furtheremore I personally feel that the ones at fault is mostly CCP for not providing the CSM will more structure before deploying it as I think most of the arguements, diagrements and time wasting of the last couple of weeks can clearly be placed at thier door for the lack of support in creating this council in regards to the procedural side of the CSM. If there had have been more of it in place the CSM could have got on with representing the people who voted for them straight out the gate rather than it having to spend all this time bickering about simple matter of internal policy.
---
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Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative
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Posted - 2008.06.09 19:22:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Heartstone Furtheremore I personally feel that the ones at fault is mostly CCP for not providing the CSM will more structure before deploying it as I think most of the arguements, ...
They are not at fault, they are to be _thanked_ for not providing said structure. We're here for the entertainment, not to watch boring meetings about PG boosting the Nyx.
Oh, and a thumbs up for removing Jade from the chair contrary to my vote at the election. For the entertainment value. ^_^
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.06.09 19:34:00 -
[27]
Establish a rule of law and a code of behavior before removing anybody.
NOT supported.
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Christy Walton
Bloodveil
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Posted - 2008.06.09 19:53:00 -
[28]
Remove him and maybe we could start to see CSM with better eyes.
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Teh Doylan
DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:23:00 -
[29]
I second this |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:28:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Inanna Zuni
Originally by: Pnuka The fact a goon wasn't muted or warned first is going to really open some eyes I think.
One person has commented to me that they wondered whether that was because I have made it very clear I am not on the CSM as a representative of my corp / alliance and so wouldn't wardec Jade's lot.
"You might say that, I couldn't possibly comment" is all I can say.
IZ
Yeah you are having a laugh to be honest. To say we'd welcome a wardec from the silly goons would be understating the case. There is no force in this game scares us in Empire Wars Inanna. So cut the silly insinuations - it makes you look foolish.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
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Yorda
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:30:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Inanna Zuni
Originally by: Pnuka The fact a goon wasn't muted or warned first is going to really open some eyes I think.
One person has commented to me that they wondered whether that was because I have made it very clear I am not on the CSM as a representative of my corp / alliance and so wouldn't wardec Jade's lot.
"You might say that, I couldn't possibly comment" is all I can say.
IZ
Yeah you are having a laugh to be honest. To say we'd welcome a wardec from the silly goons would be understating the case. There is no force in this game scares us in Empire Wars Inanna. So cut the silly insinuations - it makes you look foolish.
Jade brings up a valuable point. In empire wars the enemies can just sit in the stations and there's really nothing you can do about it (in 0.0 you can blow up the pos and just take the station).
I think we need to rectify this by making all outposts destructible.
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Martin VanBuren
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:31:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Erotic Irony
Originally by: Theramin Dogon
Originally by: Erotic Irony Nah, removing Jade is as counterproductive as allowing the council to simply re-elect chair and members.
Whatever happens CCP will claim it was a success as part of their ham-handed philosophy of player content as king.
Why would you have to re-elect anyone? Just give the person with the second-most votes (Hardin) the chair and give the first alternate a seat on the council.
The re-elect idea was a Jade proposal that seems to be all the rage. v0v
Before Jade thought he would win he said whatever chairman got elected should step down and put it to a vote. After he won he said it was not within the chairman's scope to determine whether or not he could resign (wtf?????) and that CCP would have to rule on it.
In conclusion, I support this measure
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:31:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Yorda In empire wars the enemies can just sit in the stations and there's really nothing you can do about it...
Lol you wish.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Martin VanBuren
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:32:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Jade Constantine it makes you look foolish.
As compared to stealth bomber fleets attacking dreadnoughts?
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Slapdash McGinty
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:52:00 -
[35]
Jade is completely out of control.
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Luciela Darkfall
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:54:00 -
[36]
I hoped he would calm down or assume a more mature posture.
I was wrong. Jade really is feeling like he is some sort of god.
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:55:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 09/06/2008 20:55:31
Originally by: Luciela Darkfall I hoped he would calm down or assume a more mature posture. I was wrong. Jade really is feeling like he is some sort of god.
Hey weren't you the goon alt who said she'd rather vote for Sirmolle than me in the election! Smooth.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Rumours
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:55:00 -
[38]
Jade has gone mad with a moderate amount of power. It's actions to this point are inexcusable.
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Furb Killer
USC Militia
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:02:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 09/06/2008 21:05:57 Honestly, is this some kind of goon campaign to get a goon as chairman?
No doubt jade made errors, and would be nice when he would admit he did. But people act like the world is going to end.
This happened all after 3:30 hours behind eve to chat with a group others. With eve chat so you have to split what you want to say in several posts, and meanwhile others do the same so everything is one large pile of garbage. Not to mention people keep writing stuff when they should sh ut up. And then additionally after 3:30 hours and you want to finish it people also have the urgent need to try to make funny remarks which arent funny. I dont agree with what jade did, but i can understand why he did it.
Thread goes to goon level orange, next level is red. When red is reached, CCP will initiate total forum lock down and say it has to do with expansion deployment
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Luciela Darkfall
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:03:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Luciela Darkfall on 09/06/2008 21:04:40
Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 09/06/2008 20:55:31
Originally by: Luciela Darkfall I hoped he would calm down or assume a more mature posture. I was wrong. Jade really is feeling like he is some sort of god.
Hey weren't you the goon alt who said she'd rather vote for Sirmolle than me in the election! Smooth.
Hey aren't you the old man who roleplays a female sex-slave, is trolling a tread just because some people disagree with your childish posture, behaves like a dictator and wants to change the game to suit your own way because after a long hiatus you found out you can't even assault any space anymore with your stealth bombers, and is bitter/passive agressive enough to remember the name of every one who criticizes you!
Hairy.
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:04:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Furb Killer Honestly, is this some kind of goon campaign to get a goon as chairman?
Yes I'm rather afraid it is. Get used to goon threadnaughts until they get their way.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
MirrorGod
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:04:00 -
[42]
Remove Ankakarebearfail from chair!!! \0/
Recruitment: [ANTI]
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jBusy
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:05:00 -
[43]
Edited by: jBusy on 09/06/2008 21:05:53 Sir Molle is the only true Internet god king of eve. I will not allow Jade Constantine to usurp his title!
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Anton Marvik
AnTi. Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:05:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Yes I'm rather afraid it is. Get used to goon threadnaughts until they get their way.
Because I'm obviously a Goon, right? Moron.
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:06:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Luciela Darkfall ... and is bitter/passive agressive enough to remember the name of every one who critizes you!
[Protip!]
I actually clicked on your little avatar and saw that amongst your handful of previous posts there were ones flaming me. Nifty eh!
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Luciela Darkfall
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:07:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Luciela Darkfall ... and is bitter/passive agressive enough to remember the name of every one who critizes you!
[Protip!]
I actually clicked on your little avatar and saw that amongst your handful of previous posts there were ones flaming me. Nifty eh!
Why don't you mute me about it?
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Furb Killer
USC Militia
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:08:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Anton Marvik
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Yes I'm rather afraid it is. Get used to goon threadnaughts until they get their way.
Because I'm obviously a Goon, right? Moron.
Welcome to the real world, you are not everyone. Look arround, 90% here is goon or alt (which is probably goon alt, but hard to determine). Now goons may have tendency to post quite much, but not this much in the average topic.
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:09:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 09/06/2008 21:17:49
Originally by: Luciela Darkfall
Why don't you mute me about it?
Either that, or I dunno, here's a Mr Slippy's wild ride of adventures grade idea I'm just throwing out here ...
Maybe you could post with your main? (if you haven't done so earlier in the thread already that is)
Oops my bad given away another goon protip for influencing the support totals there boys and girls.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Meteor Crash
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:10:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Meteor Crash on 09/06/2008 21:11:31 I support this. I am not pleased with the chairman, and this whole situation is extremely awkward
If nothing happens, I hope the community will choose someone better next time.
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Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:12:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Because I'm obviously a Goon, right? Moron.
Welcome to the real world, you are not everyone. Look arround, 90% here is goon or alt (which is probably goon alt, but hard to determine). Now goons may have tendency to post quite much, but not this much in the average topic.
Goons have no restrictions on their posting. There's no need to use an alt. v0v
It's certainly easier though to demonize everyone else and insinuate there's some form of organized campaign. It's way easier than accepting responsibility for example.
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Anton Marvik
AnTi. Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:14:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Anton Marvik on 09/06/2008 21:18:12
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON It's way easier than accepting responsibility for example.
Which is the primary reason for this proposal. Its hard to have faith that someone will stop making mistakes when that person pretends no mistakes were made and its all some sort of tinfoil-hat conspiracy.
Furthermore, the trolling Jade is currently doing throughout Assembly Hall threads is endemic of his overall lack of professionalism.
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teji
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:14:00 -
[52]
Quote: Because I'm obviously a Goon, right? Moron.
Goons take the blame for everything regardless of if they have anything to do with it.
CCP really screwed up without setting some ground rules for this sandbox before they handed it off to the CSM children to play in. Now it's take whatever power you can and blame goons for anything you don't agree with. Because goons are bad right? right?
Too bad Hardin didn't get the most votes at least I have some confidence in him to be a bit more mature. Oh and I support this motion.
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Luciela Darkfall
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:26:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Luciela Darkfall on 09/06/2008 21:29:46
Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 09/06/2008 21:17:49
Originally by: Luciela Darkfall
Why don't you mute me about it?
Either that, or I dunno, here's a Mr Slippy's wild ride of adventures grade idea I'm just throwing out here ...
Maybe you could post with your main? (if you haven't done so earlier in the thread already that is)
Oops my bad given away another goon protip for influencing the support totals there boys and girls.
That's absolutely no problem whatsoever:
http://glowfalls.com/eve_ships/
This is my "main"'s post. I'll leave there only until my next update because, unlike you, I like to keep my work neutral. It can't "influence the support totals", but is definitely more coherent than what you've been doing.
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Gorfob
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 22:00:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Gorfob on 09/06/2008 22:01:51 Indeed.
Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 09/06/2008 21:05:57 Honestly, is this some kind of goon campaign to get a goon as chairman?
No because holy crap have you seen our forums and the moderating that goes on there? A cork hat would do a better job than Jade and a slightly better job than a goon.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.09 22:51:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Furb Killer Honestly, is this some kind of goon campaign to get a goon as chairman?
Yes I'm rather afraid it is. Get used to goon threadnaughts until they get their way.
I'd quit Eve before I joined the Goons, and I'd probably wind up disliking Darius as Chair almost as much as I do you. Bane seems like he could be okay, but I'm hardly confident of that. But given the number of non-Goons in on this "Jade's a tyrant" bandwagon, you'd think you could at least attribute it to something other than a mysterious "conspiracy".
And besides - even if a Goon did get the Chair, what would happen then? They're bloody anarchists! It's not like the role gives them power, because whatever power it does have they'd refuse to use. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.06.09 22:58:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto I'd quit Eve before I joined the Goons, and I'd probably wind up disliking Darius as Chair almost as much as I do you. Bane seems like he could be okay, but I'm hardly confident of that. But given the number of non-Goons in on this "Jade's a tyrant" bandwagon, you'd think you could at least attribute it to something other than a mysterious "conspiracy".
And besides - even if a Goon did get the Chair, what would happen then? They're bloody anarchists! It's not like the role gives them power, because whatever power it does have they'd refuse to use.
You are a fickle man Herschel Yamamoto. Lets see what the future brings.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Farrqua
Turbo Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.06.09 23:03:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto I'd quit Eve before I joined the Goons, and I'd probably wind up disliking Darius as Chair almost as much as I do you. Bane seems like he could be okay, but I'm hardly confident of that. But given the number of non-Goons in on this "Jade's a tyrant" bandwagon, you'd think you could at least attribute it to something other than a mysterious "conspiracy".
And besides - even if a Goon did get the Chair, what would happen then? They're bloody anarchists! It's not like the role gives them power, because whatever power it does have they'd refuse to use.
You are a fickle man Herschel Yamamoto. Lets see what the future brings.
Actually what he is expressing is a neutral objective view.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
|
Posted - 2008.06.09 23:10:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 09/06/2008 23:10:14
Originally by: Jade Constantine You are a fickle man Herschel Yamamoto.
Not especially. I voted for you because I liked your vision for the game. I still do - I think there's a few flaws in the implementation, but most of what you outlined I still want to see.
My objections are to your actions as Chair, not to your actions as a member. I haven't said anything at all against your being on the Council, or you bringing forward your platform commitments to the Council. I just find your actions as Chair appalling. I want you out of the Chair and still on the Council - I don't think I've said anything that would go against that at any point. I know I stood against the no confidence topic when it was new, but that's because it looked like an attempt to kick you out for reasons of personal dislike. Abuse of power is a whole different ball game. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
Heartstone
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.06.09 23:33:00 -
[59]
Nope. I don't this all the choises he has made are perfect but considering what he has been up against (and I'm not talking about the goons or anything like that rather the lack of support from CCP) I think he has done a resonable job of it.
Biased? yes of course.
Overly so? No not really. I'll happy tell him he sucks if he does ;)
---
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Nashtak
Neoteric War Syndicate Lex Talionis Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.06.09 23:35:00 -
[60]
I didn't pay attention to the CSM or any political aspect of the game (0.0 wars and huge alliance) but i'm pretty sure the chairman shouldn't be posting here.
I thought the CSM was supposed to add a political aspect to the game and now that something goes wrong, instead of thinking this through, everyone just start ranting over it?
I don't think the chairman is the only thing out of control right now.
This whole thing is gotta be a joke.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.09 23:37:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Heartstone Nope. I don't this all the choises he has made are perfect but considering what he has been up against (and I'm not talking about the goons or anything like that rather the lack of support from CCP) I think he has done a resonable job of it.
Biased? yes of course.
Overly so? No not really. I'll happy tell him he sucks if he does ;)
Wait, you think its O.K. when the CSM chair applies bais and moderating the discussion because CCP hasn't provided the best tools they could have?
How in the world can you make the logical connection between those.
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.06.09 23:40:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto My objections are to your actions as Chair, not to your actions as a member. I haven't said anything at all against your being on the Council, or you bringing forward your platform commitments to the Council. I just find your actions as Chair appalling. I want you out of the Chair and still on the Council - I don't think I've said anything that would go against that at any point. I know I stood against the no confidence topic when it was new, but that's because it looked like an attempt to kick you out for reasons of personal dislike. Abuse of power is a whole different ball game.
Well you and I disagree on the issue of the muting obviously. I say fickle because it was one decision out of a fractious 4 hour meeting which otherwise place a lot of good issues onto the agenda for the forthcoming meetings with ccp. Now perhaps you are right, perhaps I'm wrong. But end of the day you get the whole package when you vote for someone - I'm passionate and mission-orientated when I get involved in something like this. I intended from day one to make a go of this process hence the major effort I've put into issue research/agenda building/feedback and driving the skeletal structure of the CSM towards something like a working model. Yes yesterday was messy as all hell and lots of disagreements came from my decision to mute Inanna. But you know what? I'm proud of the fact we slaved away on a hot evening for 4 hours to get 15 player issues onto the agenda for Iceland despite everything. I'd rather have imperfect accomplishments than perfect nothing. Over these past three weeks we've built up this process from virtually nothing and are going to achieve everything expected of us in the CSM docs.
As others have pointed out we aren't making money out of this - everyone is taking time from work, we're paying for our own beer and going to Iceland for a lot of meetings and chit-chat and PR stuff for the general good of this game.
So if you want to sit back and say "hey jade as a chairman you're rubbish" over a 30sec mute intention to get a vote done at the end of a 4 hour meeting and say my judgment is critically flawed as a result then hey, be my guest.
But taken in the context of the huge amount of effort I (and other CSM reps) have put into making this process actually work rather than simply throwing our hands up in the air and blaming it all on ccp and non-delivery of resources and promises then you are going to need to take a little criticism in return.
Yes, fickle is not unreasonable.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Anton Marvik
AnTi. Atrocitas
|
Posted - 2008.06.09 23:41:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Anton Marvik on 09/06/2008 23:43:44
Originally by: Jade Constantine Now perhaps you are right, perhaps I'm wrong.
That about sums it up.
It's a bit late for appeasement, don't you think Jade? You put too much effort into denial to stop now. Distraction won't work any better.
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Heartstone
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.06.09 23:50:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Goumindong
Wait, you think its O.K. when the CSM chair applies bais and moderating the discussion because CCP hasn't provided the best tools they could have?
How in the world can you make the logical connection between those.
I think it is fine for the CSM chairman to moderate a discussion as that would be part of the job of the CSM chairman as described in the CSM document. In regards to bias no I don't think the CSM chairman should be biased in stating what others have said and I have said as much however the CSM Chairman is also a member of the CSM elected to give his/her viewpoint and as such will obviously have a personal bias in one direction on every topic no matter who they are. In general I feel Jade has kept his neutrality in most situations, with a few excpetions, and as such has done a perfectly resonable job. Perfect? No of course not but all things considered perfectly resonable.
As for CCP not providing the best tools they could of I think you may wish to think about that a bit harder as CCP have provided next to no tools. In fact it would be more accurate to say they have provided a stick, a drawning pin and a drinking straw and told the members to build a car. The lack of fundamental procedural guidence from CCP has led to all of this as is perfectly apparent when you consider what the difference would have been had they provided instructions to the CSM in regards to the Chairman's powers to maintain order, how to use them and how they should not be used (one example out of a many).
However I assume you feel differently from your many many many many posts on the issue. *shrug* Flame away my dear chap.
---
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Theramin Dogon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 00:03:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Jade Constantine 1. Get your CSM reps to pass the CSM electable chair issue to the constitution in Iceland.
Why does Jade keep dismissively referring to "your CSM reps"? It was pointed out by Darius earlier: Jade, in case you weren't aware, you are our CSM rep. You didn't vote for yourself 2,436 times, and it's entirely possible that one of those people who voted for you disagrees with your recent actions. Take responsibility for your actions, and stop opposing both your constituent base and your fellow CSM members. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 00:05:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Anton Marvik It's a bit late for appeasement, don't you think Jade? You put too much effort into denial to stop now. Distraction won't work any better.
Lol one thing you are going to have to realize about me is I treat people differently depending on my past experience with them. You've acted like a complete plonker from your first posts so I honestly don't care what you think Anton, sorry but I got elected for my disarming honesty as much as anything
Herschel Yamamoto on the other hand even though I disagree with him over the issue of muting inanna, I do care what he thinks because he's taken time to read and present issues here, take an interest in the CSM process and generally be a responsible respondent to issues threads.
So don't try and sun yourself in my conciliatory post to another person. Its really not meant for you!
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Dohl Khrensen
Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 00:15:00 -
[67]
No support. Let them work it out.
I think its very important that the CSM learns to leave their baggage at the council room door and works together, almost as important as the end product they're working towards. Future Councils need a precedent set that you don't just move to impeach whenever someone does something stupid/unpopular.
Start the culture of cooperation now. Those who don't buy-in just look silly and short sighted. Next election day, make cooperation a voting issue.
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Anton Marvik
AnTi. Atrocitas
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 00:15:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Jade Constantine Blahblahblah
You've obviously realized that flat denial and self-delusion isn't working, so you're attempting distraction and appeasement, is the point.
Ironically, when you insulted all those who criticized you (ZOMG we want to see CSM fail and its all a big goon conspiracy), you insulted the people whose ***es you are now attempting to kiss.
Good luck, Jade, if they're stupid enough to be 'disarmed' by your facade more power to them.
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Agent Marvin
A Cell Delta.Green
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 00:20:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Anton Marvik Its really not meant for you!
Wow, what an ass.
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Theramin Dogon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 00:30:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Jade Constantine Herschel Yamamoto on the other hand even though I disagree with him over the issue of muting inanna, I do care what he thinks because he's taken time to read and present issues here, take an interest in the CSM process and generally be a responsible respondent to issues threads.
You're hardly acting as if you care what anyone else thinks, as you've repeatedly said that you'll act the same way in the future.
And Darius does a hell of a better job of rolling with the punches when he gets trolled. I hope you understand it's rather unprofessional to troll back. You're taking this way too seriously. |
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Qaedienne
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 00:57:00 -
[71]
Vote against. Jade acted appropriately in muting Innana, who was clearly in the wrong and disruptive to the meeting. Furthermore, Innana has acted even less professionally since the meeting, and is now making wild accusations on these boards instead of working with the council to get past the issue.
If anyone should be removed, it's Innana.
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Heartstone
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 01:00:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Qaedienne
If anyone should be removed, it's Innana.
No I don't think Innana should be removed at all (I am of the opinion that people should only be removed for gross misconduct, such as breach of the NDA, or at the end of thier term nothing else) I do however agree that she should take it up with the members of the CSM to try and come to some sort of way of getting past the issue beween themsleves rather than bringing it into the public domain.
---
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Anton Marvik
AnTi. Atrocitas
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 01:04:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Qaedienne If anyone should be removed, it's Innana.
Nobody wants anybody removed from the CSM. Some people just feel that the position of Chair would be better filled by someone other than Jade.
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Orion Moonstar
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 01:20:00 -
[74]
Where's my support thumb.
Wait there it is.
Seriously, Jade, you're easily the biggest idiot I've ever seen elected to office, and I live in America.
http://www.dariusjohnson.org/dec20bobts.mp3 http://www.daitengu.com/ohgod/dec20bobts.mp3 |
shuckstar
Hauling hogs CryoGenesis Mining Syndicate
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 01:40:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Ethaet Edited by: Ethaet on 09/06/2008 18:28:47 After reading the chatlog, I support this. 'Warning' and then muting people for no reason is not right unless there is a valid reason.
I maybe just be paranoid, but anyone notice this was between two of the RPers on the CSM? Keep your RP sentiments out of the CSM.
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Kinkie Yuuki
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 01:50:00 -
[76]
Jade is going great. Inanna was disruptive and deserved the 30 second? mute, lol.
Wahh waahh the CSM Chairman isn't nice to me when I criticize him, seriously shutup.
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Anton Marvik
AnTi. Atrocitas
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 01:51:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Kinkie Yuuki Jade is going great. Inanna was disruptive and deserved the 30 second? mute, lol.
You are ignorant of the facts, my dear forum alt. Ianna was kicked from the chatroom and then unable to join until after a vote had concluded.
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Maitsu
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 01:53:00 -
[78]
Doesn't Jade write terrible fanfic about unrestrained gallente sexuality? Someone find that link... That's clearly not the direction I want this game going.
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Phorashi
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 01:53:00 -
[79]
Yeah, I've read the chatlogs and I do agree that Jade seems to be not only abusing it's power as chair, but seems to be paranoid.
I vote that Jade is removed from chair position at the very least. At the most it should be removed from the council altogether if it's obvious mental instability becomes an issue.
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 01:57:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 10/06/2008 01:58:15
Originally by: Anton Marvik
Originally by: Kinkie Yuuki Jade is going great. Inanna was disruptive and deserved the 30 second? mute, lol.
You are ignorant of the facts, my dear forum alt. Ianna was kicked from the chatroom and then unable to join until after a vote had concluded.
Well actually the sanction against Inanna was a 30 sec mute. But sadly the chat channel functionality is messed up and the un-mute setting = kick from channel. She then needed to be manually re-invited and un-muted again. But the point is the punishment was a 30 sec mute while the final vote of the evening was being stated. Its entirely false for you to state that she wasn't able to join against till after the vote - she was given an opportunity to cast her vote when she'd rejoined.
If anyone is ignorant of the facts (albeit intentionally so) its you Anton.
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Kinkie Yuuki
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 01:58:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Anton Marvik
Originally by: Kinkie Yuuki Jade is going great. Inanna was disruptive and deserved the 30 second? mute, lol.
You are ignorant of the facts, my dear forum alt. Ianna was kicked from the chatroom and then unable to join until after a vote had concluded.
Good even better. If hes diruptive again he should be banned for a month. |
Anton Marvik
AnTi. Atrocitas
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 02:03:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Anton Marvik on 10/06/2008 02:06:13 Edited by: Anton Marvik on 10/06/2008 02:04:29
Originally by: Jade Constantine Its entirely false for you to state that she wasn't able to join against till after the vote - she was given an opportunity to cast her vote when she'd rejoined.
[ 2008.06.08 21:40:29 ]EVE System >Inanna Zuni was muted by Jade Constantine., Effective until 2008.06.08 21:10:28. [ 2008.06.08 21:40:48 ]Hardin >simple majority - aye? [ 2008.06.08 21:40:56 ]Bane Glorious >well the rules say (ref Tusko's findings) that seven votes is necessary, so that's means choice A [ 2008.06.08 21:41:03 ]Jade Constantine >simple majority a) [ 2008.06.08 21:41:08 ]Dierdra Vaal >A then [ 2008.06.08 21:41:10 ]Ankhesentapemkah >A [ 2008.06.08 21:41:12 ]LaVista Vista >Abstain [ 2008.06.08 21:41:14 ]Bane Glorious >in that case there's not really anything to vote on, it's just what's there [ 2008.06.08 21:41:33 ]Jade Constantine >okay [ 2008.06.08 21:42:08 ]Jade Constantine >this means that with that we approve that process and as a result the issue about the CSM chair would now pass rather than fail [ 2008.06.08 21:42:14 ]Serenity Steele >B [ 2008.06.08 21:43:03 ]Serenity Steele >^ If I understood correctly I just voted for 5+ yeses to pass? [ 2008.06.08 21:43:11 ]Jade Constantine >yep [ 2008.06.08 21:43:18 ]Jade Constantine >but its gone the other way [ 2008.06.08 21:43:38 ]Jade Constantine >and simple majority pass voting has been confirmed by this committee [ 2008.06.08 21:43:46 ]Jade Constantine >everyone clear with that? [ 2008.06.08 21:43:58 ]Ankhesentapemkah >Thank god. [ 2008.06.08 21:44:06 ]EVE System >Inanna Zuni was muted by Jade Constantine., Effective until 2008.06.08 21:14:05. [ 2008.06.08 21:44:27 ]Jade Constantine >kk [ 2008.06.08 21:44:32 ]Jade Constantine >as a result ANK [ 2008.06.08 21:44:51 ]Jade Constantine >the CSM vote-able chairman vote is actually a success and would pass onto the agenda [ 2008.06.08 21:44:55 ]Jade Constantine >so I've got to ask [ 2008.06.08 21:45:00 ]Jade Constantine >does anyone wish to revote on that [ 2008.06.08 21:45:18 ]Bane Glorious >meh, forget it [ 2008.06.08 21:45:26 ]Bane Glorious >we're way overtime [ 2008.06.08 21:45:32 ]Hardin >Hang on where is inanna
She was able to vote...after she resolved the problem and returned, minutes after the vote had been called by you, Jade. |
Kinkie Yuuki
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 02:10:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Anton Marvik 5+ yeses to pass
Innana's vote would have been useless either way. I hope he's learned not to disrupt the process next time. |
Yorda
Battlestars GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 20:02:00 -
[84]
Guys we should have a fair election for who should be CSM chair.
*mutes everyone not in GS*
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Lila Penney
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 20:04:00 -
[85]
Sadly, based on all evidence I can see it's clear that Jade is unable to remain within his remit, and therefore I support this.
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Yorda
Battlestars GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 20:08:00 -
[86]
I have to admit, it's pretty funny how much of a giant joke the entire CSM is. |
Inanna Zuni
The Causality Electus Matari
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 20:32:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Inanna Zuni on 10/06/2008 20:33:17
Originally by: Jade Constantine Well actually the sanction against Inanna was a 30 sec mute.
This appears to be a case of "state it often enough and maybe people will start to believe it" but the record speaks differently:
[i][ 2008.06.08 21:40:29 ] EVE System > Inanna Zuni was muted by Jade Constantine., Effective until 2008.06.08 21:10:28. [ 2008.06.08 21:44:06 ] EVE System > Inanna Zuni was muted by Jade Constantine., Effective until 2008.06.08 21:14:05. [ 2008.06.08 21:45:32 ] Hardin > Hang on where is inanna
So muted at 21:40:29 and again 3+ minutes later (for some reason) and still blocked (and, indeed, booted) at 21:45:32. In most of that time I had not been able to *see* the discussion, let alone vote at any point, thus
Originally by: Jade Constantine Its entirely false for you to state that she wasn't able to join against till after the vote - she was given an opportunity to cast her vote when she'd rejoined.
is quite ridiculous as I didn't even know what the vote was about having been kicked and re-entered twice then kicked an unable to re-enter! Yes, it was subsequently suggested that there is something odd about that channel's controls (unique, indeed; I haven't been able to replicate it on any other channel) so maybe some of that was unintentional, but it doesn't change the sequence of events into that you repeatedly suggest.
IZ
|
Dohl Khrensen
Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 20:32:00 -
[88]
Its hardly a joke. The ridiculous fascination with it is though. |
Dramaticus
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 20:46:00 -
[89]
who didn't see this coming.
boot the loon. |
JafoPBCFR
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 20:55:00 -
[90]
Seeing the log. Seeing Jade comin here and act 12. I wish i had voted for another. Dunno maybe his Dad wrote up his little Spiel that made me vote for him.
Im not a Goon Or a Goon Alt. he dont know me from Adam. I want him off the chair before he has another "Malfunction with the channel" when its time to Vote for a important issue.
Also who come to the chair i would hope would know what it is tobe a chair and not make there little wise*****s after every vote.
And Jane Growup. Ya want to play Big Boy then play it.
I Vote to have Him removed from the chair and if he cant settle down and work for me twards my Goals in the game. I want him out of the CSM and put somone who can do the job with out being a burden to the system. |
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 21:00:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Dramaticus who didn't see this coming.
See what?, bitter whiners not getting what they want and so looking for a witch to burn cos they cannot deal with their own in game inadequates and incompetence.
Yup id say anybody with a brain saw this coming a mile off although i am sure CCP are very happy the cry-babies now have somebody else to blame and pester. |
Valrandir
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 21:01:00 -
[92]
No
Let Jade do his job.
A complete democracy with no one in power, using said power to keep the csm in order, will fail to accomplish anything then a comedy circus. I'm sure some would like it to fail this way.
|
Dramaticus
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 21:06:00 -
[93]
Originally by: lecrotta
Originally by: Dramaticus who didn't see this coming.
See what?, bitter whiners not getting what they want and so looking for a witch to burn cos they cannot deal with their own in game inadequates and incompetence.
Yup id say anybody with a brain saw this coming a mile off although i am sure CCP are very happy the cry-babies now have somebody else to blame and pester.
I had a pretty decent reply but "bitter whiner not getting what they wants and so looking for a witch to burn cos they cannot deal with their own in game inadequates and incompetence" pretty much describes Jade perfectly. Except for the bad grammer of it all. |
lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 21:12:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Dramaticus
Originally by: lecrotta
Originally by: Dramaticus who didn't see this coming.
See what?, bitter whiners not getting what they want and so looking for a witch to burn cos they cannot deal with their own in game inadequates and incompetence.
Yup id say anybody with a brain saw this coming a mile off although i am sure CCP are very happy the cry-babies now have somebody else to blame and pester.
I had a pretty decent reply but "bitter whiner not getting what they wants and so looking for a witch to burn cos they cannot deal with their own in game inadequates and incompetence" pretty much describes Jade perfectly. Except for the bad grammer of it all.
Actually i was referring to you and the other drama queens on here spouting your crap, but i am more than happy to include jade and the rest of the useless CSM clowns as well. |
J'Mkarr Soban
Proxenetae Invicti
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 21:20:00 -
[95]
-- These are my personal views and in no way represent the views of Proxenetae Invicti, which maintains a neutral stance stemming from the strong ethics demanded of its work. |
teji
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 21:21:00 -
[96]
Quote: Let Jade do his job.
What is his job? To boot and mute anyone who doesn't agree with him? To make the other council members lives a living hell? To claim powers that he has no right to? If that's his job then sure he does it quite well.
Why even have anyone else on the council if you want it to be a dictatorship?
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E'Lairun Duor'Leik
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 21:46:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Valrandir No
Let Jade do his job.
A complete democracy with no one in power, using said power to keep the csm in order, will fail to accomplish anything then a comedy circus. I'm sure some would like it to fail this way.
You completely missed the point of this and several other entire threads. If Jade were acting like a moderator and not a tyrant (read Robert's Rules of Order if you need to have what that means defined), we wouldn't be having this discussion. Jade has taken every opportunity to usurp power and control for himself, up to and including silencing people with dissenting opinions who are just as passionate about their job as CSM as him.
He's got a Christ complex and he's working himself up to be the Martyr. I'm happy to give him that status if it means he's out of the Chairman's position. You could put anyone else in that position and I'd be fine with it. The rest of the CSMs have displayed at least a passing respect for what 'council of equals' means.
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Xrethan
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 21:51:00 -
[98]
|
Inanna Zuni
The Causality Electus Matari
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 23:42:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Qaedienne Innana has acted even less professionally since the meeting, and is now making wild accusations on these boards
Whilst you are certainly welcome to your opinions (and if everyone thought exactly the same the world of EVE or 'real life' would be very boring) please point me at any evidence for these claims. "wild accusations"? hardly ...
IZ
ps. I do not presently support the removal of Jade from the position of Chair of the CSM. Obviously, being a rational human being, this opinion is subject to change in the light of future events.
My principles |
Anton Marvik
AnTi. Atrocitas
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 23:45:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Inanna Zuni I do not presently support the removal of Jade from the position of Chair of the CSM. Obviously, being a rational human being, this opinion is subject to change in the light of future events.
I think most people respect that. If you did support our position it could easily be spun by Jade's flunkies to make you look petty. You're an intelligent person so I'm sure you already know that, though.
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Sir Ibex
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Posted - 2008.06.10 23:45:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Sir Ibex on 10/06/2008 23:46:06 Edited by: Sir Ibex on 10/06/2008 23:45:42
Originally by: Anton Marvik If Jade cannot accept responsibility for his actions, let alone realize why they were wrong in the first place, she is not a sound Chairperson. Period.
QFT ;)
So is Jade a "he" or a "she"? Decide please. ;)
I knew this crap was going to happen. And I bet it's going to happen again and again, even if someone new is elected. I wish there was a way to do psychological screening before electing candidates. I say we give Jade a chance to "get his/her s*it together..." Sort to speak. People make mistakes, and sometimes they need to learn how to handle themselves in a new role. Let's just see how it plays out. I'll always have a chance to give my thumbs up later, if nothing will change.
PS: Teh goons need to "hush". Seriously. The way people conduct themselves in a game often shows what kind of people they are in RL. At least to a certain level. To be complaining about someone else's conduct, you must 1st show "good" conduct yourself. (just my two cents)
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Anton Marvik
AnTi. Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.06.10 23:47:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Sir Ibex So is Jade a "he" or a "she"? Decide please.
I refuse to take the responsibility of making such a decision.
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Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.10 23:48:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Sir Ibex Edited by: Sir Ibex on 10/06/2008 23:46:06 Edited by: Sir Ibex on 10/06/2008 23:45:42
Originally by: Anton Marvik If Jade cannot accept responsibility for his actions, let alone realize why they were wrong in the first place, she is not a sound Chairperson. Period.
QFT ;)
So is Jade a "he" or a "she"? Decide please. ;)
I knew this crap was going to happen. And I bet it's going to happen again and again, even if someone new is elected. I wish there was a way to do psychological screening before electing candidates. I say we give Jade a chance to "get his/her s*it together..." Sort to speak. People make mistakes, and sometimes they need to learn how to handle themselves in a new role. Let's just see how it plays out. I'll always have a chance to give my thumbs up later, if nothing will change.
PS: Teh goons need to "hush". Seriously. The way people conduct themselves in a game often shows what kind of people they are in RL. At least to a certain level. To be complaining about someone else's conduct, you must 1st show "good" conduct yourself. (just my two cents)
So when a person is throwing around their power and abusing you just roll over like a good little slave and take it? |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.10 23:50:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Sir Ibex I knew this crap was going to happen. And I bet it's going to happen again and again, even if someone new is elected. I wish there was a way to do psychological screening before electing candidates. I say we give Jade a chance to "get his/her s*it together..." Sort to speak. People make mistakes, and sometimes they need to learn how to handle themselves in a new role. Let's just see how it plays out. I'll always have a chance to give my thumbs up later, if nothing will change.
Don't worry about me, my desktop PC runs on goon tears
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Anton Marvik
AnTi. Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.06.10 23:54:00 -
[105]
Edited by: Anton Marvik on 10/06/2008 23:55:08
Originally by: Jade Constantine I find collectivist activity very yawn-inspiring at the best of times.
Originally by: Jade Constantine Where things have gone wrong have been where I've made the mistake of allowing this council a little too much democracy
Its all downhill from here, I'm afraid. Hence my proposal to nip the JC problem in the bud.
Jade is also trying to assert Veto power, which the Chair clearly doesn't have. |
Anthony Pants
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Posted - 2008.06.10 23:55:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Sir Ibex PS: Teh goons need to "hush". Seriously. The way people conduct themselves in a game often shows what kind of people they are in RL. At least to a certain level. To be complaining about someone else's conduct, you must 1st show "good" conduct yourself. (just my two cents)
So you want to mute people who don't disagree with you, too.
I don't get why everyone thinks we're terrible people just because of our in-game reputation. Why are we powerful enough to get two individuals onto the CSM? Why do we control so much space? What makes us so much worse than the other griefers? I'll take your stereotyping into account and reiterate what you had to say: "To be complaining about someone else's conduct, you must 1st show 'good' conduct yourself." |
Pnuka
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.10 23:56:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Sir Ibex I knew this crap was going to happen. And I bet it's going to happen again and again, even if someone new is elected. I wish there was a way to do psychological screening before electing candidates. I say we give Jade a chance to "get his/her s*it together..." Sort to speak. People make mistakes, and sometimes they need to learn how to handle themselves in a new role. Let's just see how it plays out. I'll always have a chance to give my thumbs up later, if nothing will change.
Don't worry about me, my desktop PC runs on goon tears
You can't edit wall of text to all your posts in a fit of rage here like you did on F13's site a few weeks ago Jade. |
Annaliese Witschak
Galgorth's Corporation
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Posted - 2008.06.10 23:57:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Jade Constantine Don't worry about me, my desktop PC runs on goon tears
Click on this link to go back to Corporation, Alliance and Organization Discussions. |
Courthouse
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.10 23:58:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Don't worry about me, my desktop PC runs on goon tears
Our boards run on androgenous palpatine-wannabe angst. Guess what we've had more of in the last 72 hours. |
Gorfob
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 00:01:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Courthouse
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Don't worry about me, my desktop PC runs on goon tears
Our boards run on androgenous palpatine-wannabe angst. Guess what we've had more of in the last 72 hours.
I was going more along the lines of whiny 39 year old man child. |
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nikhan
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.06.11 00:03:00 -
[111]
Edited by: nikhan on 11/06/2008 00:04:09 Fail forum is fail |
Theramin Dogon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 00:04:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Anton Marvik Edited by: Anton Marvik on 10/06/2008 23:55:08
Originally by: Jade Constantine I find collectivist activity very yawn-inspiring at the best of times.
Originally by: Jade Constantine Where things have gone wrong have been where I've made the mistake of allowing this council a little too much democracy
Its all downhill from here, I'm afraid. Hence my proposal to nip the JC problem in the bud.
Jade is also trying to assert Veto power, which the Chair clearly doesn't have.
Where did you come across these quotes?
Originally by: Pnuka You can't edit wall of text to all your posts in a fit of rage here like you did on F13's site a few weeks ago Jade.
I don't think that was him, I think the admins were fed up with his rhetoric. |
Anton Marvik
AnTi. Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.06.11 00:07:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Theramin Dogon Where did you come across these quotes?
What kind of forum***** are you? Pfft.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=777772&page=9
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Nevada Tan
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Posted - 2008.06.11 00:13:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Theramin Dogon I don't think that was him, I think the admins were fed up with his rhetoric.
The name-change was Schild, the multiple WALL OF TEXT edits temper tantrum and fleeing from the site was all Jade.
♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ I have done a bad thing. |
Bhodii
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Posted - 2008.06.11 00:47:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Nevada Tan
The name-change was Schild, the multiple WALL OF TEXT edits temper tantrum and fleeing from the site was all Jade.
This is true. You can tell based on the edit times; he went back and edited every single one of his 50 posts.
Psycho.
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Qaedienne
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Posted - 2008.06.11 00:55:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Inanna Zuni Whilst you are certainly welcome to your opinions (and if everyone thought exactly the same the world of EVE or 'real life' would be very boring) please point me at any evidence for these claims. "wild accusations"? hardly ...
IZ
ps. I do not presently support the removal of Jade from the position of Chair of the CSM. Obviously, being a rational human being, this opinion is subject to change in the light of future events.
Here:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=788122
Quote: I noted during the meeting that Jade was editorialising positions and not being a neutral Chair (indeed arguably *the* function of being the chair of a committee). In my opinion it went downhill from there.
Quote: I don't know where this might have been "established" but the meeting last night was the *first* time anyone used this mechanism ([ 2008.06.08 18:22:13 ] Serenity Steele > !) which was without explanation. Maybe a back channel somewhere without all members present?
Quote: This all followed your *refusal* to accept validly cast votes from myself and Dierdra:
Quote: and when I tried to actually respond you kept interrupting until
Quote: Then lets look at voting; instead of noting whether everyone has voted and waiting until they have you pre-empt things.
Quote: and after more discussion wherein those who understand that 'abstain' is a perfectly rational and acceptable position to take argued with those who, seemingly, do not, Jade typed
Quote: As a point of principle, I always support the Chair of any body on which I serve, whether I am that Chair or 'just' a member. But a Chair has to show that they have the capability and capacity to undertake that task responsibly and to do it properly. That requires their being independent of the subject under discussion (passing the chair to someone else for a moment should they wish to talk on the subject) so that they can remain even-handed. My view was that the editorialising, returning to subjects, and general bullying of myself suggests that there are issues in the present incarnation of the CSM. One cannot demand trust, one has to earn it.
Quote: which, by no stretch of an imagination, is a call to a vote when the members present *had already voted*. It is, however, an example of bullying to try and get the result you wanted.
Quote: And *again* you are being disrespectful to council members. An 'abstain' (which is, as I have noted, the vote I cast) *is* a meaningful vote, and that you choose to editorialise the decision I (and others on this and other motions) chose to make sadly shows you do not understand so seek to cast aspersions.
Quote: Clearly this thread has gone on long enough and others have made the points that needed to be made. That you are not answering the questions asked of you is ... a pity ... and that you seeking to place the blame elsewhere, just sad.
Quote: And ... yet again, you are attempting (and failing) to obfuscate the point here.
Quote: and, not surprisingly, I didn't bend to this attempt to run roughshod over the decision that the CSM had just made, resulting in
Quote: As I said, editorialising decisions to make them appear different to how they were presented and decided upon.
Quote: which, while not exactly as per Darius do demonstrate that you were editorialising the decision in your own way rather than be a neutral Chair reporting the decision of the vote just completed.
Based on your responses quoted above, along with the accusations you made during the meeting, I'd ask you to stop making trouble in and about the CSM or resign your position.
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Theramin Dogon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 00:56:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Anton Marvik
Originally by: Theramin Dogon Where did you come across these quotes?
What kind of forum***** are you? Pfft.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=777772&page=9
Oh hey, and they're both in a reply to a post of mine :downs: |
Qlanth
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 01:37:00 -
[118]
he said he would step down if he was elected anyhow. I say eh actually let it be put to a vote.
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The MapMaker
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Posted - 2008.06.11 01:39:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Qaedienne
Based on your responses quoted above, along with the accusations you made during the meeting, I'd ask you to stop making trouble in and about the CSM or resign your position.
You're telling a CSM representative to resign because they were unfairly muted and went on to talk about it? I think you've forgotten to put your Star Fraction ticker on there buddy.
Inanna's reaction to the whole thing has been fairly tame, enough to oppose Jade's bullying around votes but calm enough not to fan the fires of controversy.
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Selim Delavar
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 01:53:00 -
[120]
Support. |
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SauI Tigh
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Posted - 2008.06.11 01:54:00 -
[121]
Jade as chair has repeatedly sidetracked the CSM onto time wasting issues with the powergrabbing etc and we need someone as chair that is not so decisive. The new person obviously does not have to be member of goonfleet and I think we all would be happy with someone who would stop trying to give power to herself and then crying foul when people disagree. |
Qaedienne
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Posted - 2008.06.11 01:57:00 -
[122]
Originally by: The MapMaker You're telling a CSM representative to resign because they were unfairly muted and went on to talk about it? I think you've forgotten to put your Star Fraction ticker on there buddy.
Inanna accused Jade of willful wrong-doing in the meeting before she was muted, so obviously that didn't have to do with the muting. She did it multiple times, also. Then she accused Jade of willful wrong-doing for muting her, and continues to accuse Jade of willful wrong-doing both for muting her, as well as for pretty much everything else Jade did in the meeting.
Inanna has been consistently focused in her accusations against Jade, both before the muting as well as after. It needs to stop, or Inanna should step down. She is not acting in the interest of the player base. She didn't add anything to CSM meeting 3 except her criticisms of Jade, and she isn't doing anything now to resolve the issues the council is having.
She can certainly do all of that from the e-o-boards, just like all the members of Goonfleet. There's no reason to waste a council seat for that. Give it to someone who can focus on game issues. |
Pringlescan
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 01:58:00 -
[123]
How can we have someone as chairperson who is obviously so decisive. She has admitted time and time again that she bears hostilities towards the corporation that 2 of the 7 members of the council are from. How can that possibly be regarded as a good alternative by anyone? By all means lets remove her from power and set up someone who doesn't antagonize and instigate petty little powerfeuds getting in the way of the real agenda. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.11 02:07:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Pringlescan How can we have someone as chairperson who is obviously so decisive.
I'm having that one for lols. Nice quote.
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Ceros X
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 02:09:00 -
[125]
jade constantine : not my chairman |
Rektide
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Posted - 2008.06.11 02:09:00 -
[126]
Jade isnt letting the council decide their own agenda any more. This empire hugging gallente roll playing dog is power tripping his mind out.
Chairpersons facilitate discussion, not rule them. But given that council would almost assuredly vote to restrict his power, I cant blame this mad dog for banning them from discussing restricting his power. |
BiggestT
Fun Inc Black-Out
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Posted - 2008.06.11 02:16:00 -
[127]
Jade is immature and thinks "shes" so great...pathetic.. |
White Ronin
Screenout
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Posted - 2008.06.11 02:16:00 -
[128]
Not supported
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Migkado
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 02:17:00 -
[129]
supported |
FluffyBunnyPuPu
COAD Alts United
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Posted - 2008.06.11 02:18:00 -
[130]
+1 |
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Theramin Dogon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 02:37:00 -
[131]
Edited by: Theramin Dogon on 11/06/2008 02:40:13
Originally by: Qaedienne
Originally by: The MapMaker You're telling a CSM representative to resign because they were unfairly muted and went on to talk about it? I think you've forgotten to put your Star Fraction ticker on there buddy.
Inanna accused Jade of willful wrong-doing in the meeting before she was muted, so obviously that didn't have to do with the muting. She did it multiple times, also. Then she accused Jade of willful wrong-doing for muting her, and continues to accuse Jade of willful wrong-doing both for muting her, as well as for pretty much everything else Jade did in the meeting.
Inanna has been consistently focused in her accusations against Jade, both before the muting as well as after. It needs to stop, or Inanna should step down. She is not acting in the interest of the player base. She didn't add anything to CSM meeting 3 except her criticisms of Jade, and she isn't doing anything now to resolve the issues the council is having.
She can certainly do all of that from the e-o-boards, just like all the members of GoonFleet. There's no reason to waste a council seat for that. Give it to someone who can focus on game issues.
The CSMs are representative of the players. Nobody voted for someone to get silenced during the council. After it was discovered that she had been muted, and then kicked (due to the bug we've all been made aware of), she had every right to criticize Jade, as did the other council members. The only CSM who has expressed any interest in silencing other members is Jade Constantine. He's stated that he may have been "too democratic". In fact, it's been Jade Constantine who has been more contrary towards the other CSMs than the other way around, yet he still believes that the rest of the council needs unilateral moderation. This is not how a council is supposed to work, and this is why there are now threads about a vote of no confidence. |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.06.11 03:07:00 -
[132]
no support |
Mica Swanhaven
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Posted - 2008.06.11 03:13:00 -
[133]
ummm no, jade is doing her job fine. |
facialimpediment
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 03:37:00 -
[134]
Instead of addressing in-game issues, Jade Constantine has been more concerned with cementing his own power within a "constitution" that regular EVE players really don't care about. EVE players really don't care about who is the leader of this now-irrelevant CSM, but Jade's power-grabbing is stalling the issues for even being addressed, much less a suggestion to CCP on how to fix them.
Or even suggest to CCP that they should document all of their hidden "features", one of the most basic things any game manual would show.
The CSM is not the Jade Constantine Show. As it stands, the CSM is a joke behind "her" leadership. |
DrGreetings
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Posted - 2008.06.11 03:51:00 -
[135]
no |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.11 04:05:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Jade Constantine Well you and I disagree on the issue of the muting obviously. I say fickle because it was one decision out of a fractious 4 hour meeting which otherwise place a lot of good issues onto the agenda for the forthcoming meetings with ccp. Now perhaps you are right, perhaps I'm wrong. But end of the day you get the whole package when you vote for someone - I'm passionate and mission-orientated when I get involved in something like this. I intended from day one to make a go of this process hence the major effort I've put into issue research/agenda building/feedback and driving the skeletal structure of the CSM towards something like a working model. Yes yesterday was messy as all hell and lots of disagreements came from my decision to mute Inanna. But you know what? I'm proud of the fact we slaved away on a hot evening for 4 hours to get 15 player issues onto the agenda for Iceland despite everything. I'd rather have imperfect accomplishments than perfect nothing. Over these past three weeks we've built up this process from virtually nothing and are going to achieve everything expected of us in the CSM docs.
As others have pointed out we aren't making money out of this - everyone is taking time from work, we're paying for our own beer and going to Iceland for a lot of meetings and chit-chat and PR stuff for the general good of this game.
So if you want to sit back and say "hey jade as a chairman you're rubbish" over a 30sec mute intention to get a vote done at the end of a 4 hour meeting and say my judgment is critically flawed as a result then hey, be my guest.
But taken in the context of the huge amount of effort I (and other CSM reps) have put into making this process actually work rather than simply throwing our hands up in the air and blaming it all on ccp and non-delivery of resources and promises then you are going to need to take a little criticism in return.
Yes, fickle is not unreasonable.
I don't judge peoples worthiness for a job by how well they perform when it's easy. Thus far, I haven't seen too many hard decisions you've faced as Chair. Yes, there's been three meetings that probably made you want to pull your hair out, but those are merely frustrating, not difficult, and they've been faced by all nine(or 14) members. I'm not denying the successes of the CSM as a whole - as you say, they're plentiful - but I will deny that those successes mean that you are fit for the job you currently possess. It's not difficult to identify the most popular threads and put them on the agenda, and it's not difficult to call votes on them. Your successes in those are laudable, but not especially meaningful.
Your failure, on the other hand, is meaningful, because it was in a situation where you ought to have done better and where you could easily have done better. There was no good reason for your action, and a host of bad consequences have arisen from it - the Council is fractured, your reputation is somewhat lowered, and the reputation of the Council has been lowered greatly.
New creations are fragile and easily swayed, and just as I feel you collectively lost many good opportunities to set down methods and rules in "common law", I feel that your one single action, born in frustration or whatever, may well have made the CSM a sandbox for power trippers in the minds of many players. Even if it's not true, that's how it will be seen, and perception always trumps reality in politics, since so few people are obsessive enough to have the information to separate the two.
Your action was wrong on its own merits, and it damaged the Council as well. Condemning a serious mistake is hardly "fickle". |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 04:15:00 -
[137]
Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 11/06/2008 04:15:27
Originally by: Qaedienne Here:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=788122
(snip)
Based on your responses quoted above, along with the accusations you made during the meeting, I'd ask you to stop making trouble in and about the CSM or resign your position.
So far as I recall what was being referred to in each of those quotes, they're all true, and none of them is a "wild accusation". Accusations, yes, and rather unfriendly ones, but all valid and well-founded. |
Theramin Dogon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 04:28:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Mica Swanhaven ummm no, jade is doing her job fine.
Would you care to elaborate on what you believe Jade's job is? Here are some quotes the proponents of this thread would like you to consider:
Originally by: Jade Constantine As to the general complaints about muting raised here. I stand 100% behind what I did. And I'd do exactly the same next time, to any CSM member who ignores 2 formal warnings on disruptive behaviour.
Originally by: Jade Constantine The lesson learned from that last meeting is for the Chair to be firmer, sooner, and take a much more vigorous hand in preventing unrecognized interruptions from the representatives LaVista. If people will not follow the discipline of raising their hand to be recognized to speak then it is impossible to keep order between nine people in an text chat. If this happens again I'll be inclined to act earlier and more decisively to warn the people doing this and ensure we don't waste time with pointless cross talk and off-topic interruptions while we are trying to go through the agenda.
Originally by: Jade Constantine while I have admitted some mistakes in that meeting I don't believe muting Inanna was one of them and I stand by that decision.
Originally by: Jade Constantine Where things have gone wrong have been where I've made the mistake of allowing this council a little too much democracy and allowed them to impact the constitution of the CSM itself. Inevitably it led to problems as people try to vote themselves advantage.
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Annover Haf
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 04:32:00 -
[139]
Edited by: Annover Haf on 11/06/2008 04:33:42 I'd like to see any representative body of the player base be a body of equals. The Chair, regardless of who it is, should not have mute or veto power. The idea that six duly elected representatives of the player base can be silenced or over-ridden on the whim of the chair rubs me the wrong way. Especially when the combined player -representation of those six individuals is much much more than that of the chair.
Jade has taken what was to be a representative discussion between the player base and CCP and made a mess of it. |
Qaedienne
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 04:33:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Theramin Dogon The CSMs are representative of the players.
Thanks for pointing that out. Jade Constantine was returned as the top vote-getter, and per the CSM rules is the chairperson of the council. Just wanted to bring that up now, as it's going to be something you fail to recognize throughout the rest of your whine.
Quote: Nobody voted for someone to get silenced during the council.
That's not something that is voted on. The chairperson has that responsibility.
Quote: After it was discovered that she had been muted, and then kicked (due to the bug we've all been made aware of), she had every right to criticize Jade, as did the other council members.
Before she had been muted, she had:
*Asked if Bane had apologized for showing up late. *Pointed out PIE had retracted a war. *Pointed out 2 council members did not have *****es. *Accused Jade of making a biased statement in phrasing the first vote. *Accused Jade of editorializing in the phrasing of the 2nd vote. *Accused Jade of not being a neutral chairperson. *Accused Jade of not being neutral again. *Accused Jade of editorializing again. *Corrected Jade's phrasing of "if we run out of time" to "if we have spare time". *Corrected Jade's spelling (your/you're). *Abstained from a vote. *Argued that abstention was a vote (it's not, by definition). *Accused Serenity of abuse. *Accused Serenity of suggesting she (Inanna) doesn't care. *Suggested Serenity learns what abstention means. *Argued the council should not determine if simple majority is necessary, rather than at least 5 "aye" votes being required, calling it a pointless question. *Accuses the council of not meeting the minimum requirement for understanding how a committee/organization works before standing for election. *Argues again that the council should not determine simple majority vs 5 aye votes, as it's being voted on. *Refuses to vote on the question of simple majority vs 5 aye votes, as she feels it's obvious simple majority is correct. With irony abounding, 5 aye votes wins by simple majority vote, 4-3, with Inanna heavily favoring simple majority but abstaining on philosophic grounds. *Objects to having no vote recorded. *Asks Jade to "Chair this meeting sensible". *Emotes pity for anyone reading the meeting log. *Interrupts the vote regarding outpost destruction to point out that not enough time was given for discussion. When offered the chance to speak for the record, votes no instead. *Abstains from voting on large hull exploration ship. *Refuses to recognize the vote on simple majority vs 5 aye votes. *While Jade checks the chat log to verify the vote count on simple majority vs 5 aye votes, Inanna accuses Jade of calling the vote twice. *Accuses Jade of wishing "to interpret other people's positions" regarding votes. *On the re-vote of simple majority vs 5 aye votes, Inanna refuses to participate saying that the matter is concluded (simple majority winning) even though the council previously voted against (with Inanna abstaining). *Accuses Jade of attributing a nonsense position to her(Inanna) in the first vote. *Corrects Jade's spelling again (bare/bear). *When given a formal warning for "interruptions and interfering with the chair" (a vote), Inanna claims "'Formal warning' is a misnomer".
To be continued...
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Theramin Dogon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 05:01:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Qaedienne Thanks for pointing that out. Jade Constantine was returned as the top vote-getter, and per the CSM rules is the chairperson of the council.
That is absolutely correct. Turns out, people are starting to disagree with him; Herschel Yamamoto, for example, says he voted for Jade, but now feels disenfranchised by his recent actions. Some people think that waiting for the next election period is only going to make things worse.
Originally by: Qaedienne Just wanted to bring that up now, as it's going to be something you fail to recognize throughout the rest of your whine.
No.
Originally by: Qaedienne That's not something that is voted on. The chairperson has that responsibility.
Says who? CCP hasn't said anything. There's nothing like that in the CSM documentation. It was Jade's idea.
Originally by: Qaedienne Before she had been muted, she had:
*Asked if Bane had apologized for showing up late. *Pointed out PIE had retracted a war. *Pointed out 2 council members did not have *****es. *Accused Jade of making a biased statement in phrasing the first vote. *Accused Jade of editorializing in the phrasing of the 2nd vote. *Accused Jade of not being a neutral chairperson. *Accused Jade of not being neutral again. *Accused Jade of editorializing again. *Corrected Jade's phrasing of "if we run out of time" to "if we have spare time". *Corrected Jade's spelling (your/you're). *Abstained from a vote. *Argued that abstention was a vote (it's not, by definition). *Accused Serenity of abuse. *Accused Serenity of suggesting she (Inanna) doesn't care. *Suggested Serenity learns what abstention means. *Argued the council should not determine if simple majority is necessary, rather than at least 5 "aye" votes being required, calling it a pointless question. *Accuses the council of not meeting the minimum requirement for understanding how a committee/organization works before standing for election. *Argues again that the council should not determine simple majority vs 5 aye votes, as it's being voted on. *Refuses to vote on the question of simple majority vs 5 aye votes, as she feels it's obvious simple majority is correct. With irony abounding, 5 aye votes wins by simple majority vote, 4-3, with Inanna heavily favoring simple majority but abstaining on philosophic grounds. *Objects to having no vote recorded. *Asks Jade to "Chair this meeting sensible". *Emotes pity for anyone reading the meeting log. *Interrupts the vote regarding outpost destruction to point out that not enough time was given for discussion. When offered the chance to speak for the record, votes no instead. *Abstains from voting on large hull exploration ship. *Refuses to recognize the vote on simple majority vs 5 aye votes. *While Jade checks the chat log to verify the vote count on simple majority vs 5 aye votes, Inanna accuses Jade of calling the vote twice. *Accuses Jade of wishing "to interpret other people's positions" regarding votes. *On the re-vote of simple majority vs 5 aye votes, Inanna refuses to participate saying that the matter is concluded (simple majority winning) even though the council previously voted against (with Inanna abstaining). *Accuses Jade of attributing a nonsense position to her(Inanna) in the first vote. *Corrects Jade's spelling again (bare/bear). *When given a formal warning for "interruptions and interfering with the chair" (a vote), Inanna claims "'Formal warning' is a misnomer".
So I guess what you want to say is that the Chairman is the only one who should be able to say anything, and that the rest of the CSMs are there for "aye" and "nay" votes? If not, please clarify each of these points (to include context) with why you think they are worth bringing up so we might address them and understand your stance. |
Qaedienne
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Posted - 2008.06.11 05:02:00 -
[142]
Quote: The only CSM who has expressed any interest in silencing other members is Jade Constantine.
That's a solution when there are CSM's who treat a council meeting the way Goons treat the CAOD board.
Quote: He's stated that he may have been "too democratic".
He is being too democratic. The last meeting went 4 hours long and they never even agreed to how their own votes will be determined. If Jade hadn't been pushy about it, they might not have gotten all the player issues voted on in time for their meeting with CCP.
Quote: In fact, it's been Jade Constantine who has been more contrary towards the other CSMs than the other way around, yet he still believes that the rest of the council needs unilateral moderation.
You're wrong. Darius by himself has posted more **** about Jade then she has about the rest of the council. The council needs to focus on getting the player issues to CCP, not *****ing about the chair and calling points of order and ****.
Quote: This is not how a council is supposed to work, and this is why there are now threads about a vote of no confidence.
A council is supposed to take so long to meet that nothing gets accomplished? A council is supposed to not even agree on what constitutes a successful vote? A council is supposed to nit-pick the **** out of each others spelling and phrasing instead of getting through the topics? Individual council members are supposed to disagree with and recognize the exact opposite results of whatever votes they prefer?
Councils require strong chair-persons for the reasons I listed above, and Jade was elected the chairperson democratically. It is her responsibility to chair the council, and anyone who tries to remove her as chair is messing with the democratic process of the council.
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Qaedienne
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Posted - 2008.06.11 05:10:00 -
[143]
Quote: That is absolutely correct. Turns out, people are starting to disagree with him; Herschel Yamamoto, for example, says he voted for Jade, but now feels disenfranchised by his recent actions. Some people think that waiting for the next election period is only going to make things worse.
And some people think some people shouldn't try to overturn a democratic process just because some people's panties are in a twist.
Quote: No.
Lol. Yes!
Quote: Says who? CCP hasn't said anything. There's nothing like that in the CSM documentation. It was Jade's idea.
Says me. If you disagree, please find an example of a chairperson who does not have any control of the meetings they run.
Quote: So I guess what you want to say is that the Chairman is the only one who should be able to say anything, and that the rest of the CSMs are there for "aye" and "nay" votes?
Unsurprisingly, you guessed wrong. CSM members do not get to hijack meetings and interfere with votes. Jade was more than obliging with Inanna.
Quote: If not, please clarify each of these points (to include context) with why you think they are worth bringing up so we might address them and understand your stance.
Err, that is context. You want the context of the context now?
Lol, goons.
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Heng
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.11 05:34:00 -
[144]
Supporting this. |
Theramin Dogon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 06:08:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Qaedienne That's a solution when there are CSM's who treat a council meeting the way Goons treat the CAOD board.
So you believe the bulleted list above is evidence that Inanna is acting like a goon? I can assure you, from first-hand experience, that isn't the way goons act. You think Inanna is trolling? There are much better methods she could have chosen. If she has a serious problem with the way things are being handled in the CSM, she has every right to address them.
Originally by: Qaedienne He is being too democratic. The last meeting went 4 hours long and they never even agreed to how their own votes will be determined. If Jade hadn't been pushy about it, they might not have gotten all the player issues voted on in time for their meeting with CCP.
It seems to me that Jade doesn't seem to put too much importance on time. As a matter of fact, he insists on having meetings when individuals will not be able to appear. Jade being "pushy" has everything to do with why he's being called out. We believe he needs to calm down, and not exert so much power over the rest of the council.
Originally by: Qaedienne You're wrong. Darius by himself has posted more **** about Jade then she has about the rest of the council. The council needs to focus on getting the player issues to CCP, not *****ing about the chair and calling points of order and ****.
Darius posts **** about everybody -- he's just an angry person. He has not, however, taken personal grudges into the council, and he has acted with the utmost civility in his position as CSM.
Originally by: Qaedienne A council is supposed to take so long to meet that nothing gets accomplished? A council is supposed to not even agree on what constitutes a successful vote? A council is supposed to nit-pick the **** out of each others spelling and phrasing instead of getting through the topics? Individual council members are supposed to disagree with and recognize the exact opposite results of whatever votes they prefer?
Councils require strong chair-persons for the reasons I listed above, and Jade was elected the chairperson democratically. It is her responsibility to chair the council, and anyone who tries to remove her as chair is messing with the democratic process of the council.
Originally by: Qaedienne And some people think some people shouldn't try to overturn a democratic process just because some people's panties are in a twist.
We're asking that Jade is also removed democratically. All we want is a vote. What's the worst that could happen? We win? Some of us aren't asking for Jade to be kicked outright, but the CSMs should have the power to audit themselves, and the voters should have the power to audit the CSM. That's still democracy.
Originally by: Qaedienne Says me. If you disagree, please find an example of a chairperson who does not have any control of the meetings they run.
Well, you're actually not the person who determines who has mute powers and who doesn't. Maybe there should be clarification from CCP. Or the council could initiate a vote.
Originally by: Qaedienne Unsurprisingly, you guessed wrong. CSM members do not get to hijack meetings and interfere with votes. Jade was more than obliging with Inanna.
But...that's exactly what Jade did. He muted Inanna, therefore blocking her from either voting or from participating in her role. |
The Speaker
The Clue Factory
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Posted - 2008.06.11 06:09:00 -
[146]
I'm having a hard time believing that people can't take a step back and see things for how they really are, and are instead wearing their in-game colors defiantly in the face of the truth.
Really, remove the rose-tinted glasses and see for yourself just how ridiculous this dude "Jade" has been behaving.
I think that many would prefer to see Hardin as the "chairperson". He at least seems to have the interests of the game (and not himself) in mind.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.11 06:11:00 -
[147]
Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 11/06/2008 06:15:31
Originally by: Theramin Dogon
Originally by: Qaedienne Thanks for pointing that out. Jade Constantine was returned as the top vote-getter, and per the CSM rules is the chairperson of the council.
That is absolutely correct. Turns out, people are starting to disagree with him; Herschel Yamamoto, for example, says he voted for Jade, but now feels disenfranchised by his recent actions. Some people think that waiting for the next election period is only going to make things worse.
That's not really an accurate statement of my beliefs. I voted for Jade, and I'd probably still vote for Jade-the-CSM-Member. I just find the process of electing the Chair to be extremely unfortunate, because it gave us an inadequate Chair. If Jade had done the sensible thing(given his support of an elected Chair) and stepped down as Chair right off the bat, this would all have been avoided, or at least deserved if he got re-elected to the spot. But he didn't - I'm still not entirely sure why not, though I could hazard a guess at this point - and so we're left with this mess.
Originally by: Qaedienne *Asked if Bane had apologized for showing up late. *Pointed out PIE had retracted a war. *Pointed out 2 council members did not have *****es. *Accused Jade of making a biased statement in phrasing the first vote. *Accused Jade of editorializing in the phrasing of the 2nd vote. *Accused Jade of not being a neutral chairperson. *Accused Jade of not being neutral again. *Accused Jade of editorializing again. *Corrected Jade's phrasing of "if we run out of time" to "if we have spare time". *Corrected Jade's spelling (your/you're). *Abstained from a vote. *Argued that abstention was a vote (it's not, by definition). *Accused Serenity of abuse. *Accused Serenity of suggesting she (Inanna) doesn't care. *Suggested Serenity learns what abstention means. *Argued the council should not determine if simple majority is necessary, rather than at least 5 "aye" votes being required, calling it a pointless question. *Accuses the council of not meeting the minimum requirement for understanding how a committee/organization works before standing for election. *Argues again that the council should not determine simple majority vs 5 aye votes, as it's being voted on. *Refuses to vote on the question of simple majority vs 5 aye votes, as she feels it's obvious simple majority is correct. With irony abounding, 5 aye votes wins by simple majority vote, 4-3, with Inanna heavily favoring simple majority but abstaining on philosophic grounds. *Objects to having no vote recorded. *Asks Jade to "Chair this meeting sensible". *Emotes pity for anyone reading the meeting log. *Interrupts the vote regarding outpost destruction to point out that not enough time was given for discussion. When offered the chance to speak for the record, votes no instead. *Abstains from voting on large hull exploration ship. *Refuses to recognize the vote on simple majority vs 5 aye votes. *While Jade checks the chat log to verify the vote count on simple majority vs 5 aye votes, Inanna accuses Jade of calling the vote twice. *Accuses Jade of wishing "to interpret other people's positions" regarding votes. *On the re-vote of simple majority vs 5 aye votes, Inanna refuses to participate saying that the matter is concluded (simple majority winning) even though the council previously voted against (with Inanna abstaining). *Accuses Jade of attributing a nonsense position to her(Inanna) in the first vote. *Corrects Jade's spelling again (bare/bear). *When given a formal warning for "interruptions and interfering with the chair" (a vote), Inanna claims "'Formal warning' is a misnomer".
Unfortunately. these godforsaken forums won't let me fisk that list properly inside of ten posts. That said, at least 2/3 of the actions posted on there are both reasonable and correct, and the rest are no worse than other, non-silenced, people's actions. Seriously, you're calling abstaining misconduct? ------------------ Fix the forums! |
Anton Marvik
AnTi. Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.06.11 06:21:00 -
[148]
This thread now has more public support than Jade's "big thread" about blowing up stations \o/ |
Fallorn
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 06:26:00 -
[149]
More support to. |
Theramin Dogon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 06:27:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto That's not really an accurate statement of my beliefs. I voted for Jade, and I'd probably still vote for Jade-the-CSM-Member. I just find the process of electing the Chair to be extremely unfortunate, because it gave us an inadequate Chair. If Jade had done the sensible thing(given his support of an elected Chair) and stepped down as Chair right off the bat, this would all have been avoided, or at least deserved if he got re-elected to the spot. But he didn't - I'm still not entirely sure why not, though I could hazard a guess at this point - and so we're left with this mess.
Ah, that's what it'd seemed like from your posts. Sorry to have misrepresented you, I'll go back and edit my post.
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Unfortunately. these godforsaken forums won't let me fisk that list properly inside of ten posts. That said, at least 2/3 of the actions posted on there are both reasonable and correct, and the rest are no worse than other, non-silenced, people's actions. Seriously, you're calling abstaining misconduct?
Two counts of abstaining! And since I couldn't get any clarification out of Qaedienne, there's really not more to say other than "lookit dat fuggin list". lookit dat fuggin list. |
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Waterfowl Democracy
The Ministry of Indigenous Affairs GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 06:40:00 -
[151]
Supporting this attempt to remove a clearly disturbed individual from power.
PS. Qaedienne, post with your main.
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Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2008.06.11 06:44:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy Supporting this attempt to remove a clearly disturbed individual from power.
PS. Qaedienne, post with your main.
hey can you sponsor me into GF ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
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Martin VanBuren
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 06:52:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Erotic Irony
Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy Supporting this attempt to remove a clearly disturbed individual from power.
PS. Qaedienne, post with your main.
hey can you sponsor me into GF
I can, but there's a 100m isk security deposit.
Hit me up in game |
duckmonster
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 06:53:00 -
[154]
I think decisions should be made on the basis of some sort of bloodthirsty physical combat.
Seriouspost:
Hadin for CSM chair. The guys got experience. |
Sigmorhair
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 06:55:00 -
[155]
Jade is worthless. It was already obvious this council would be of limited worth but the presidents being set now just make that worse. If Goonswarm wins the next council chair are we allowed to pull the same ****? Mute everyone and win all votes by a yes or no by ourselves?
Absurd.
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Hsin
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Posted - 2008.06.11 06:56:00 -
[156]
Yes Jade is worthless and should be removed.
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Shadako
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 06:58:00 -
[157]
This is obviously an untenable situation. Jade should be forced to resign.
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Dr Felonius
Civilian Purposes Limited
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Posted - 2008.06.11 06:58:00 -
[158]
Rather see the position of Chair removed, but if there's going to be an executive, it should be someone who knows the difference between leading and bullying.
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Lynen
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:04:00 -
[159]
Generally the chair shouldn't be a power crazy maniac
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Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:05:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Martin VanBuren
Originally by: Erotic Irony
Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy Supporting this attempt to remove a clearly disturbed individual from power.
PS. Qaedienne, post with your main.
hey can you sponsor me into GF
I can, but there's a 100m isk security deposit.
Hit me up in game
Will tech two BS BPCs be ok, I'm kinda broke atm ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
|
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Jane Spondogolo
NoobWaffe
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:11:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Qaedienne
Originally by: Theramin Dogon The CSMs are representative of the players.
*Asked if Bane had apologized for showing up late.
As is standard meeting procedure. Apologies are minuted, unapologised absentees usually are not.
Quote:
... *Pointed out 2 council members did not have *****es.
Gender balance questions are fine, and pretty common in the modern world
Quote:
*Accused Jade of making a biased statement in phrasing the first vote. *Accused Jade of editorializing in the phrasing of the 2nd vote.
Both true and entirely valid
Quote:
*Accused Jade of not being a neutral chairperson. *Accused Jade of not being neutral again. *Accused Jade of editorializing again.
And was correct all three times
Quote:
*Corrected Jade's phrasing of "if we run out of time" to "if we have spare time". *Corrected Jade's spelling (your/you're).
who cares
Quote:
*Abstained from a vote. *Argued that abstention was a vote (it's not, by definition).
How is this abusive? Should dissedents be rounded up and shot? Its valid meeting procedure. CCP has explicitely noted that the meeting uses Simple rather than Absolute majority. That means an abstain vote , by formal definition means "I do not hold an opinion formally, but I do not wish my silence to be counted as a no or a yes.". This is basic stuff here.
Quote: *Accused Serenity of abuse. *Accused Serenity of suggesting she (Inanna) doesn't care. *Suggested Serenity learns what abstention means.
As was her right
Quote:
*Argued the council should not determine if simple majority is necessary, rather than at least 5 "aye" votes being required, calling it a pointless question.
Its a valid opinion, even if it may or may not be wrong.
Quote:
*Accuses the council of not meeting the minimum requirement for understanding how a committee/organization works before standing for election.
It certainly appears true of the chair.
Quote:
...........
*Refuses to vote on the question of simple majority vs 5 aye votes, as she feels it's obvious simple majority is correct. With irony abounding, 5 aye votes wins by simple majority vote, 4-3, with Inanna heavily favoring simple majority but abstaining on philosophic grounds.
Quote:
Whilst wrong (Simple majority means more ayes than nae, and abstain means "not nae not aye) its her right to that opinion.
Quote:
*Objects to having no vote recorded.
The objection is correct if Ianna voted abstain. Abstains are always recorded by name
Quote:
*Asks Jade to "Chair this meeting sensible". *Emotes pity for anyone reading the meeting log. *Interrupts the vote regarding outpost destruction to point out that not enough time was given for discussion. When offered the chance to speak for the record, votes no instead.
As is her right!
Quote:
*Abstains from voting on large hull exploration ship.
As is her right.
Quote:
*Refuses to recognize the vote on simple majority vs 5 aye votes.
As is her right.
Quote:
*While Jade checks the chat log to verify the vote count on simple majority vs 5 aye votes, Inanna accuses Jade of calling the vote twice.
What do you even MEAN by "simple majority vs 5 aye". The rules set out by CCP are as follows;- "A simple majority vote is required for passage". That means by definition, that the only rules are 1) More ayes than naes are required. 2) An abstain must not count as a nae or an aye (otherwise its absolute majority rather than simple majority)
Continued.... |
Martin VanBuren
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:13:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Erotic Irony
Originally by: Martin VanBuren
Originally by: Erotic Irony
Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy Supporting this attempt to remove a clearly disturbed individual from power.
PS. Qaedienne, post with your main.
hey can you sponsor me into GF
I can, but there's a 100m isk security deposit.
Hit me up in game
Will tech two BS BPCs be ok, I'm kinda broke atm
are they better than me -2 |
Erotic Irony
0bsession
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 07:22:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Martin VanBuren are they better than me -2
not sure, I'm sitting on a few dozen redeemer and paladin prints, waiting for redeemers to be buffed--a handful had the me decryptor used but the rest were straight og |
Jane Spondogolo
NoobWaffe
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:27:00 -
[164]
Quote:
*Accuses Jade of wishing "to interpret other people's positions" regarding votes.
As is her right
Quote:
*On the re-vote of simple majority vs 5 aye votes, Inanna refuses to participate saying that the matter is concluded (simple majority winning) even though the council previously voted against (with Inanna abstaining).
As is her right
Quote:
*Accuses Jade of attributing a nonsense position to her(Inanna) in the first vote.
Jade was attributing her abstain as a No vote , despite being prohibited in the constitution. Thats vote rigging.\
Quote:
... *When given a formal warning for "interruptions and interfering with the chair" (a vote), Inanna claims "'Formal warning' is a misnomer".
And heres the nuts of the problem. Jade has no formal power to issue warnings. They certainly are not "formal". Heres why.
Theres an aparent contradiction in the CSM summary that says
1) The chair moderates the meeting
BUT
2) "A simple majority vote is required for passage"
Now under almost all legal jurastictions, 2) is generally read to mean what is known as a "Limited freedom of speech". Specifically that the person involved is permited full freedom of speech on any matter pertaining to the democratic process. Because if members are barred from speech, it is therefore not a democracy. For an example of a ruling of this , see "The crown vs the Communist Party of Australia", and note that this heuristic is backed up from follow up rulings around the world.
So how does the "Freedom of speech" thing interact with the seemingly contradictory power of moderation?
The key is in the word "Limited". The moderator has no power to stop a person speaking to matters pertaining to the meeting. If someone is a pain in the arse, but is speaking about matters regarding democracy or topics of discussion, that person has an inviolable right to do so. If however people start doing "z0r chains" or posting "farts", or whatever, then yes, the moderator can intervene. But only to the extent is restrains THAT behavior.
To mute someone for interjection or uncomfortable speech that is within the scope is a denial of Natural Law within the scope of democracy.
Jade stuffed up, and should conceed as much. I wouldn't support a no confidence, but I would if the behavior continuted. It is unbecoming of a chair (Along with Jades, and admittedly much of the councils concept of what an abstain vote means) and I'd remind Jade, that Jade does not have a choice in the matter. The chair is constrained by the very clear wording of "Simple majority" to permit ALL democratic speech, and respect the meaning of "Simple majority" to not count an abstain as a "Nae". |
Vandervecken Smith
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:31:00 -
[165]
You guys need to calm down. I read every line of that meeting, and there's a number of simple issues at stake: 1) Jade is still figuring out how to Chair. It's not easy. Especially with a typing based meeting, and unknown people. Cut him some slack for gods sake. 2) Inanna was kept out of the chat room by technical error. A number of CSM members attested that he wasn't on the ban list. This turned what would have been a simple 30 mute into a big hullabaloo. 3) One incident is not enough to establish Jade as abusing his powers. Especially if there are technical issues. Inanna needs to stop over-reacting, and so do others. 4) Does the Chair have the right to mute people? I believe from meeting 2 it's been kinda established that he does. However, it was never voted upon and specifically agreed upon. Several people raised objections, but a vote went through to not give everyone op. It was probably unwise of jade to use muting power without a vote on record allowing him to do it, but really, it's not the end of the world. Inanna was being disruptive, and in my opinion in the previous meetings has made a habit of making loud objections to things in a way that seems designed to stop discussion. That's my personal view though. Suffice it to say that I haven't been impressed by Inanna's behaviour when s/he ends up on the losing side of a vote. By contrast whenever jade is on the losing side of a vote I notice he accepts it with good grace and moves on. If nothing else, this leads me to my opinion that Inanna was out of line, and more than a few times. 5) The issue of majority vote. I don't like the fact that 3 votes can push something through if 2 say no and 2 abstain on a 7 person quorum. I also don't like that in a pure majority of those present, abstains aren't meaningful. It's a hard question, but certain members of the CSM were MUCH too heated in the discussion, and that's what bothers me. |
Venomire
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:39:00 -
[166]
farts
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Joe Starbreaker
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:40:00 -
[167]
I suggest all council members be slaughtered except for the two Americans/Goons and that Goonswarm be granted dominion over all the regions of 0.0, forever. It is clear that no one else is prepared to lead us.
------------------------------------------------
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Jane Spondogolo
NoobWaffe
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:43:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Vandervecken Smith
5) The issue of majority vote. I don't like the fact that 3 votes can push something through if 2 say no and 2 abstain on a 7 person quorum. I also don't like that in a pure majority of those present, abstains aren't meaningful. It's a hard question, but certain members of the CSM were MUCH too heated in the discussion, and that's what bothers me.
Thats the non optional part. The CSMSummary pdf is quite explicit here. It says "Simple Majority".
This means. "More Ayes than Naes. Abstain counts as neither".
Thats all it means. 3:2:2 is a pass. Because its 3/5 votes with 2 abstains.
Theres no other interpretation. If 3:2:2 meant 3:4, then the term is "Absolute majority". The document is quite explicit that its not absolute , but simple. ______ Unrepentant Southern Federation Cheerleader.
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Theramin Dogon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:55:00 -
[169]
Edited by: Theramin Dogon on 11/06/2008 07:56:01 How many times do I have to log in before it'll let me post? Cripes.
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Theramin Dogon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:56:00 -
[170]
Originally by: Vandervecken Smith You guys need to calm down. I read every line of that meeting, and there's a number of simple issues at stake: 1) Jade is still figuring out how to Chair. It's not easy. Especially with a typing based meeting, and unknown people. Cut him some slack for gods sake. 2) Inanna was kept out of the chat room by technical error. A number of CSM members attested that he wasn't on the ban list. This turned what would have been a simple 30 mute into a big hullabaloo. 3) One incident is not enough to establish Jade as abusing his powers. Especially if there are technical issues. Inanna needs to stop over-reacting, and so do others. 4) Does the Chair have the right to mute people? I believe from meeting 2 it's been kinda established that he does. However, it was never voted upon and specifically agreed upon. Several people raised objections, but a vote went through to not give everyone op. It was probably unwise of jade to use muting power without a vote on record allowing him to do it, but really, it's not the end of the world. Inanna was being disruptive, and in my opinion in the previous meetings has made a habit of making loud objections to things in a way that seems designed to stop discussion. That's my personal view though. Suffice it to say that I haven't been impressed by Inanna's behaviour when s/he ends up on the losing side of a vote. By contrast whenever jade is on the losing side of a vote I notice he accepts it with good grace and moves on. If nothing else, this leads me to my opinion that Inanna was out of line, and more than a few times. 5) The issue of majority vote. I don't like the fact that 3 votes can push something through if 2 say no and 2 abstain on a 7 person quorum. I also don't like that in a pure majority of those present, abstains aren't meaningful. It's a hard question, but certain members of the CSM were MUCH too heated in the discussion, and that's what bothers me.
Yeah, it was a bug, but in the frenzy of the meeting, nobody really knew what was going on. Most of the members didn't even know anyone was muted, let alone kicked. The major problem is that Jade has said repeatedly that he doesn't believe he did anything wrong, and that he'll do the same thing in the future. This does not promote teamwork. Also, there's nine people on the council. Darius and Bane may be goons, but their positions still count. |
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Endemoniado
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.06.11 08:08:00 -
[171]
Wholeheartedly supported. Until Jade goes and takes his divisive posturing with him nothing of value will come of this process. |
High Inquisitress
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Posted - 2008.06.11 08:16:00 -
[172]
Supported.
Doesn't this already have more votes than the destructible stations idea Jade tried to railroad through anyway?
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.06.11 08:21:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Theramin Dogon
Originally by: Mica Swanhaven ummm no, jade is doing her job fine.
Would you care to elaborate on what you believe Jade's job is? Here are some quotes the proponents of this thread would like you to consider:
Originally by: Jade Constantine As to the general complaints about muting raised here. I stand 100% behind what I did. And I'd do exactly the same next time, to any CSM member who ignores 2 formal warnings on disruptive behaviour.
Originally by: Jade Constantine The lesson learned from that last meeting is for the Chair to be firmer, sooner, and take a much more vigorous hand in preventing unrecognized interruptions from the representatives LaVista. If people will not follow the discipline of raising their hand to be recognized to speak then it is impossible to keep order between nine people in an text chat. If this happens again I'll be inclined to act earlier and more decisively to warn the people doing this and ensure we don't waste time with pointless cross talk and off-topic interruptions while we are trying to go through the agenda.
Originally by: Jade Constantine while I have admitted some mistakes in that meeting I don't believe muting Inanna was one of them and I stand by that decision.
Originally by: Jade Constantine Where things have gone wrong have been where I've made the mistake of allowing this council a little too much democracy and allowed them to impact the constitution of the CSM itself. Inevitably it led to problems as people try to vote themselves advantage.
It all sounds good to me as any body of ppl needs strong leadership and a firm hand when it comes to discipline, jade seems to have things in hand as far as keeping ppl on track is concerned. |
Xeno Xandovar
Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa
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Posted - 2008.06.11 08:27:00 -
[174]
No support for this rubbish.
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Adam Schmidt
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Posted - 2008.06.11 08:31:00 -
[175]
Edited by: Adam Schmidt on 11/06/2008 08:31:31 Supported. Impeach the pooch. |
lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 08:32:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Adam Schmidt Edited by: Adam Schmidt on 11/06/2008 08:31:31 Supported. Impeach the pooch.
Impeach??.
Are you crazy or just simple. |
Morris Falter
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.06.11 08:33:00 -
[177]
Bad egg. |
Xplained
Welsh Wizards
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 08:50:00 -
[178]
Judging by some of Jade's answers, is he like 14 yrs of age?
I vote to remove him from the chair, i've never been a fan of BOB, but i would rather see DB Preacher in the chair
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Jane Spondogolo
NoobWaffe
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Posted - 2008.06.11 08:51:00 -
[179]
Anyone who suggests that a democratic committee needs a "Strong leader" to "Discipline" it , clearly has no ******* idea how a committee work. |
lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 08:58:00 -
[180]
Originally by: Jane Spondogolo Anyone who suggests that a democratic committee needs a "Strong leader" to "Discipline" it , clearly has no ******* idea how a committee work.
Every committee has a chair person who's responsibilities include keeping order during meetings, and that takes a certain strength of personality to accomplish or things become a shouting match.
And anybody who does not see that, clearly has no ******* idea what ppl can be like. |
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Sara Hobbs
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Posted - 2008.06.11 09:01:00 -
[181]
Edited by: Sara Hobbs on 11/06/2008 09:01:10 Gets my vote. I want to see fixes to lag and making the Moa not suck. I don't want this to be a platform for a repugnant little publicity-junkie to sidetrack the process in order to further his own interests and those of his alliance.
Serenity needs to grow a pair and stand up to Jade, too: at the moment he is at risk of being implicated due to his absolute unwillingness to step in and control someone who is his personal friend. |
Sigmorhair
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 09:12:00 -
[182]
Originally by: lecrotta
Originally by: Jane Spondogolo Anyone who suggests that a democratic committee needs a "Strong leader" to "Discipline" it , clearly has no ******* idea how a committee work.
Every committee has a chair person who's responsibilities include keeping order during meetings, and that takes a certain strength of personality to accomplish or things become a shouting match.
And anybody who does not see that, clearly has no ******* idea what ppl can be like.
I sure am glad we had one man corp alt people telling us how people are. Clearly their success in people management is demonstrated in game. |
lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 09:15:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Sigmorhair
I sure am glad we had one man corp alt people telling us how people are. Clearly their success in people management is demonstrated in game.
A good chair person keeps the topic relevant to the topic and also stops ppl from using "ad hominem" attacks like this individual. |
Myk Taison
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 09:17:00 -
[184]
oust |
Caleese
New Eden Research And Design School
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 09:17:00 -
[185]
Right from the start I knew having Jade as chair would be a bad move. Obviously I don't know Jade personally, but just going on the sheer amount of waffling he does, he obviously loves the sound of his own voice. I mean read his posts, or an even better example would be to listen to the evecast interview he did before the csm elections. All the others that were interviewed gave nice, "to the point" answers to the questions asked. Jade on the other hand droned on about every little detail.
I didn't mind having Jade on the council, but as chairman, he seems to believe this gives him some special rights/power that the others don't. And nobody actually elected Jade a chairman.
It's NOT your council Jade. Seriously, if you care about the csm as much as you made out you did before the elections, it's time to pull your head in and stop trying to play puppet master.
Be the bigger man (roleplaying as a girl) and step down. You'll do more good as a member of the council, than you will "trying" to run it. |
Waterfowl Democracy
The Ministry of Indigenous Affairs GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 09:24:00 -
[186]
Originally by: lecrotta
A good chair person keeps the discussion relevant to the topic and also stops ppl from using "ad hominem" attacks and other disruptive comments like this individual seems to think are worth saying. Maybe those who cannot keep to the agenda (mostly goons as per usual) should move back to caod where they belong.
Get back to us when you've read the CSM meeting minutes and seen with your own eyes Jade's behaviour. |
Ethaet
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 09:32:00 -
[187]
Did I just agree with a goon?
Jade constantine muting everyone who disagrees with him is wrong, not to mention 99% of what he says is TL;DR and could be written in 1/4 of the length. (already supported so can't in this post) -------------------------------------------------------------- Seriously, we need some kind of separation between the post and signature. There you go. Now that wasn't so hard |
lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 09:35:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy
Originally by: lecrotta
Originally by: Sigmorhair
I sure am glad we had one man corp alt people telling us how people are. Clearly their success in people management is demonstrated in game.
A good chair person keeps the discussion relevant to the topic and also stops ppl from using "ad hominem" attacks and other disruptive comments like this individual insulting me seems to think are worth saying.
Maybe those who cannot keep to the agenda (mostly goons as per usual) should move back to caod where they belong.
Get back to us when you've read the CSM meeting minutes and seen with your own eyes Jade's behaviour.
I see a chair person dealing with a disruption to a meeting, warnings were given initially then a mute when the problem continued.
Seems pretty cut and dried to me.
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Sigmorhair
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 09:40:00 -
[189]
Edited by: Sigmorhair on 11/06/2008 09:42:51
Originally by: lecrotta
Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy
Originally by: lecrotta
Originally by: Sigmorhair
I sure am glad we had one man corp alt people telling us how people are. Clearly their success in people management is demonstrated in game.
A good chair person keeps the discussion relevant to the topic and also stops ppl from using "ad hominem" attacks and other disruptive comments like this individual insulting me seems to think are worth saying.
Maybe those who cannot keep to the agenda (mostly goons as per usual) should move back to caod where they belong.
Get back to us when you've read the CSM meeting minutes and seen with your own eyes Jade's behaviour.
I see a chair person dealing with a disruption to a meeting, warnings were given initially then a mute when the problem continued.
Seems pretty cut and dried to me.
Ha ha are you Jade's alt? I doubt many people could cast this in such a partisan light. Considering how split the counci is already your outright lies are transparent.
The only way this is cut and dried is if you really believe Jade has the right to silence members and ignore votes. Neither of which is outlined in the charter. So spare me your bull**** on cut and dried - JADE.
Perhaps you should type "WALL OF TEXT" for all your replies - it would matter as much.
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Illaria
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 09:42:00 -
[190]
So... Goonswarm have found a new griefing toy with the CSM it seems. How very much unsurprising.
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Theramin Dogon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 09:42:00 -
[191]
Originally by: lecrotta A good chair person keeps the discussion relevant to the topic and also stops ppl from using "ad hominem" attacks and other disruptive comments like this individual seems to think are worth saying. Maybe those who cannot keep to the agenda (mostly goons as per usual) should move back to caod where they belong.
Jade is no stranger to relying on ad hominem. And why do you think CAOD is so important to us? Goons post where the action is, and there's plenty of drama to be had here -- but don't worry, we'll still post in CAOD.
Originally by: Ethaet Did I just agree with a goon?
Is that really such a big deal? Did you think we were going to be okay with this? Darius and Bane have continually pushed for fairness and equality to the point of calling Jade out several times, and that won't change. If it did, I'd expect people to rise up and call for a vote of no confidence. |
Illaria
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Posted - 2008.06.11 09:44:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Theramin Dogon Darius and Bane have continually pushed for fairness and equality
Quoting for hilarity
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Narciss Sevar
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.11 09:55:00 -
[193]
Jade had a chance to act responsibly, he has shown he can't. This has my support. |
Theramin Dogon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 10:00:00 -
[194]
Originally by: Illaria So... Goonswarm have found a new griefing toy with the CSM it seems. How very much unsurprising.
Yes, it's a shame Jade had to do something the council disagrees with before our grand master plan was unveiled. We hardly had any goons at all come into these forums, but I guess that must be those goonies blobbing the forums so they'll lag out. It's clearly "griefing" and not at all related to what had just happened during the last meeting. |
lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 10:00:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Sigmorhair
Ha ha are you Jade's alt? I doubt many people could cast this in such a partisan light. Considering how split the counci is already your outright lies are transparent.
So i'm a alt and a liar??. You really do belong on CAOD don't you *******.
Originally by: Sigmorhair
The only way this is cut and dried is if you really believe Jade has the right to silence members and ignore votes. Neither of which is outlined in the charter. So spare me your bull**** on cut and dried - JADE.
1. I do believe that the chair has the right to silence a disruptive member, its a necessary power.
2. I do not think that votes should or can be ignored but then i see no votes being ignored only a proposed clarification on the voting system.
Originally by: Sigmorhair
Perhaps you should type "WALL OF TEXT" for all your replies - it would matter as much.
Maybe you should type more goon drama bomb bull****, it would save reading time.
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Sigmorhair
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 10:06:00 -
[196]
Originally by: lecrotta
Originally by: Sigmorhair
Ha ha are you Jade's alt? I doubt many people could cast this in such a partisan light. Considering how split the counci is already your outright lies are transparent.
So i'm a alt and a liar??. You really do belong on CAOD don't you *******.
Originally by: Sigmorhair
The only way this is cut and dried is if you really believe Jade has the right to silence members and ignore votes. Neither of which is outlined in the charter. So spare me your bull**** on cut and dried - JADE.
1. I do believe that the chair has the right to silence a disruptive member, its a necessary power.
2. I do not think that votes should or can be ignored but then i see no votes being ignored only a proposed clarification on the voting system.
Originally by: Sigmorhair
Perhaps you should type "WALL OF TEXT" for all your replies - it would matter as much.
Maybe you should type more goon drama bomb bull****, it would save reading time.
Like most idiots against this motion you fail to describe what "disruptive" is - like anyone is going to take you or your ilk seriously. Try harder.
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Abrazzar
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 10:49:00 -
[197]
Considering Jade's response and behavior regarding the minuscule incident, I have to support this notion. Jade is obviously neither mature, nor honest, nor objective enough to fill in the position of a chairman. Remove him from chair and vote in another.
It almost makes me belief that Jade was voted in by all those people that want the CSM to fail.... |
RiotGrrrl
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 11:20:00 -
[198]
After seeing the attitude that Jade has made in the csm minutes, I regret voting for him. Supported. |
Xelloss Metallum
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 12:11:00 -
[199]
Originally by: Xplained Judging by some of Jade's answers, is he like 14 yrs of age?
I vote to remove him from the chair, i've never been a fan of BOB, but i would rather see DB Preacher in the chair
Closer to 40, believe it or not. |
Kalinda Veldrin
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 12:30:00 -
[200]
After having read the minutes of the last meeting it is with a heavy heart that I have to support this issue. Jade you failed several times to allow Iz to finish what she was saying and thus to you it looked like she was speaking while you were trying to force a vote. If you stuck to the decision made at the previous meeting to show that you had finished talking properly before moving on this may not have happened. Serenity is one of the few of you to actually request to speak and signal when she has finished properly. However your knee-jerk reaction and subsequent moderation with attempt to veto (even tho other elected CSM's disagreed) shows that you are not at this time capable of being the Chair of our elected CSM.
I for one do not wish the CSM to fail and I voted for a candidate that has proven to be professional, courteous and level headed so far. Perhaps you should re-read the minutes of the meetings and see what the rest of us are seeing.
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Qaedienne
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 12:40:00 -
[201]
Quote: Unfortunately. these godforsaken forums won't let me fisk that list properly inside of ten posts. That said, at least 2/3 of the actions posted on there are both reasonable and correct, and the rest are no worse than other, non-silenced, people's actions.
I have a hard time believing a rational person can claim Inanna's constant and focused attempts to be disruptive throughout that meeting are reasonable and correct, and then turn around and have a hissy fit over a single action, that actually was reasonable and correct.
Perhaps you can explain it for me.
Quote: Seriously, you're calling abstaining misconduct?
I didn't say abstaining is misconduct. I do think abstaining is a sign the CSM candidate is not prepared. The playerbase has put forward ideas to make the game better. I think the least a CSM candidate can do is review it enough to form an opinion about it, and either support it or reject it.
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Veronika Cash
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 12:44:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
Goons have no restrictions on their posting. There's no need to use an alt. v0v
Did you or did you not threaten some of your members on the goon forum with infractions if they kept posting in Eve's Corporation, Alliances and Organization Discussion forum? Please deny it so I can post a picture of the thread with your posting, and show what kind of liar you are. Many goons post on alts, their posting pattern and their anti-bob attitude makes that much obvious. Let's not forget the spy goons in different alliances posting here to make it look like many alliances agree with you on removing Jade. This is an entirely goon fed propaganda campaign, it was even you Mr. Johnson that forced Jade to tighten control over the council as you were doing everything in your power to disrupt the meeting.
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Ethaet
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 12:47:00 -
[203]
Originally by: Qaedienne
Quote: Unfortunately. these godforsaken forums won't let me fisk that list properly inside of ten posts. That said, at least 2/3 of the actions posted on there are both reasonable and correct, and the rest are no worse than other, non-silenced, people's actions.
I have a hard time believing a rational person can claim Inanna's constant and focused attempts to be disruptive throughout that meeting are reasonable and correct, and then turn around and have a hissy fit over a single action, that actually was reasonable and correct.
Perhaps you can explain it for me.
Quote: Seriously, you're calling abstaining misconduct?
I didn't say abstaining is misconduct. I do think abstaining is a sign the CSM candidate is not prepared. The playerbase has put forward ideas to make the game better. I think the least a CSM candidate can do is review it enough to form an opinion about it, and either support it or reject it.
Jade Constantine alt spotted.
Inanna's actions were fine, Jade muting and then kicking him/her for disagreeing with his point of view is not. -------------------------------------------------------------- Seriously, we need some kind of separation between the post and signature. There you go. Now that wasn't so hard |
Qaedienne
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 12:55:00 -
[204]
Quote: And heres the nuts of the problem. Jade has no formal power to issue warnings. They certainly are not "formal". Heres why.
Theres an aparent contradiction in the CSM summary that says
1) The chair moderates the meeting
BUT
2) "A simple majority vote is required for passage"
Now under almost all legal jurastictions, 2) is generally read to mean what is known as a "Limited freedom of speech". Specifically that the person involved is permited full freedom of speech on any matter pertaining to the democratic process. Because if members are barred from speech, it is therefore not a democracy. For an example of a ruling of this , see "The crown vs the Communist Party of Australia", and note that this heuristic is backed up from follow up rulings around the world.
So how does the "Freedom of speech" thing interact with the seemingly contradictory power of moderation?
The key is in the word "Limited". The moderator has no power to stop a person speaking to matters pertaining to the meeting. If someone is a pain in the arse, but is speaking about matters regarding democracy or topics of discussion, that person has an inviolable right to do so. If however people start doing "z0r chains" or posting "farts", or whatever, then yes, the moderator can intervene. But only to the extent is restrains THAT behavior.
To mute someone for interjection or uncomfortable speech that is within the scope is a denial of Natural Law within the scope of democracy.
Jade stuffed up, and should conceed as much. I wouldn't support a no confidence, but I would if the behavior continuted. It is unbecoming of a chair (Along with Jades, and admittedly much of the councils concept of what an abstain vote means) and I'd remind Jade, that Jade does not have a choice in the matter. The chair is constrained by the very clear wording of "Simple majority" to permit ALL democratic speech, and respect the meaning of "Simple majority" to not count an abstain as a "Nae".
The chair is not required to permit "all democratic speech", whatever that means. Regardless, time was given to people who wanted to discuss a topic. She isn't required to allow time to people who just want to emo-rage.
Also, Inanna's interruption of a vote, and demands that the council support the opposite verdict of a previous vote (that she willfully abstained from and allowed to pass), is a direct contradiction of democracy, and the democratic process. For what it's worth.
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Qaedienne
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 12:57:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Ethaet Jade Constantine alt spotted.
Inanna's actions were fine, Jade muting and then kicking him/her for disagreeing with his point of view is not.
Lol. I'm not Jade. Glad I could get under your skin though.
Inanna was an ass in that meeting, she should have been kicked earlier. It's not like she was voting much anyway.
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Qaedienne
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Posted - 2008.06.11 13:00:00 -
[206]
Quote: PS. Qaedienne, post with your main.
Lol, CAOD troll spotted. |
Pnuka
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 13:04:00 -
[207]
Originally by: Qaedienne
Originally by: Ethaet Jade Constantine alt spotted.
Inanna's actions were fine, Jade muting and then kicking him/her for disagreeing with his point of view is not.
Lol. I'm not Jade. Glad I could get under your skin though.
Inanna was an ass in that meeting, she should have been kicked earlier. It's not like she was voting much anyway.
The fact you hide behind a alt pretty much negates anything you because in fact you could be Jade. |
Qaedienne
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 13:08:00 -
[208]
Originally by: Pnuka
Originally by: Qaedienne
Originally by: Ethaet Jade Constantine alt spotted.
Inanna's actions were fine, Jade muting and then kicking him/her for disagreeing with his point of view is not.
Lol. I'm not Jade. Glad I could get under your skin though.
Inanna was an ass in that meeting, she should have been kicked earlier. It's not like she was voting much anyway.
The fact you hide behind a alt pretty much negates anything you because in fact you could be Jade.
I am a sinner and a lazy person, but at least I'm not a goon.
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 13:22:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Sigmorhair
Like most idiots against this motion you fail to describe what "disruptive" is - like anyone is going to take you or your ilk seriously. Try harder.
This is not a motion its a witch hunt ran by all those who's candidate or ideas did not make it and also by the natural *******s and trouble makers who look for any reason to dish out a bit of venom.
The votes have been counted and the candidates chosen if you cannot deal with the fact your guys lost then tough **** thats your problem. |
lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 13:25:00 -
[210]
Edited by: lecrotta on 11/06/2008 13:26:54
Originally by: Qaedienne
Originally by: Ethaet Jade Constantine alt spotted.
Inanna's actions were fine, Jade muting and then kicking him/her for disagreeing with his point of view is not.
Lol. I'm not Jade. Glad I could get under your skin though.
Inanna was an ass in that meeting, she should have been kicked earlier. It's not like she was voting much anyway.
I thought i was the ALT?...maybe its just the way ******s minds work that they need to blame and accuse anybody who does not share their delusion? |
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Nynaeve Ares
Animus Incarnate
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Posted - 2008.06.11 13:29:00 -
[211]
Support |
Ron Wilson
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Posted - 2008.06.11 15:03:00 -
[212]
I supprt this.
I believe the Chair should not overstep their role and has no right to mute or remove anyone from the council. Also the chair should not express their hostility toward council members even if the hostility is there and deserved. The chair person as it is now in the council should be able to fill 2 roles in the council. One would be the chair role to lead the proceedings and the other would be the elected council member role. Those roles should not be mixed, so the chair person should not use their position to promote or try to enforce their views that they represent as council member. If the chair person is not able to keep those roles separated and do both those roles at the same time the chair person should step down and a new chair person elected. If none of the council members wish to take on the responsibility or are unable to keep those roles separate, then a chair person should be invited from outside to oversee the proceedings so that the council members can all focus on their appointed task by the people who elected them.
Just my 2c
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Selnaric
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Posted - 2008.06.11 15:10:00 -
[213]
Supported.
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Value Added
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 16:00:00 -
[214]
Seeing all of these Jade apologists come out of the woodwork makes me think that people aren't taking this seriously at all. Read the chatlogs, Jade is completely out of control. |
Innominate
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 16:07:00 -
[215]
Edited by: Innominate on 11/06/2008 16:08:39
Originally by: Jade Constantine
But I'm going to try to put this right. I've started by making a ruling that all potential changes to the constitution/founding documents must be raised in the form of documented ISSUEs and join the queue with the rest for CCP approval. I hope this will stop these things clogging up the beginning of meetings.
Originally by: Jade Constantine
There will never be a formal no-confidence mechanic on the CSM.
I think someone has "Committee Chairman" confused with "Chairman Mao".
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Fallorn
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 16:12:00 -
[216]
Originally by: Value Added Seeing all of these Jade apologists come out of the woodwork makes me think that people aren't taking this seriously at all. Read the chatlogs, Jade is completely out of control.
All I hear while reading their posts is *slurp slurp slurp* Sig removed. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] with a link to your signature. - Elmo Pug
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Jane Spondogolo
NoobWaffe
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Posted - 2008.06.11 16:15:00 -
[217]
Edited by: Jane Spondogolo on 11/06/2008 16:18:15 This proposal
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=793804
resolves everything. Please read it , and give some reasonable input. And could a rep take it up. This is a very reasonable proposal that provides a win-win solution for everyone.
Goons: I think the proposal I make addresses the worry about bad process and power concentration that you guys are worrying about. If you are worried about being discriminated via the chair, this proposal gives goons (and other disidents) protection.
Jade and friends: This proposal clarifies Jades power, and gives her a mandate to work from that allows the role to be done properly whilst providing a canonical reference to give that mandate.
Everyone wins. ______ Unrepentant Southern Federation Cheerleader.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 16:26:00 -
[218]
One request for everybody - could you please stop accusing every third person of being a Jade alt? Even if they are, you just make yourself look like a whiny fool, because it's said about everybody and you can't prove anything. And much as it's a maxim of human society that there's no position too crazy for somebody to believe in it, there's also no position too crazy that two people won't believe in it. In any group of sufficient size, even those you dislike and find to be nutty will have support too.
Originally by: Theramin Dogon
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto That's not really an accurate statement of my beliefs. I voted for Jade, and I'd probably still vote for Jade-the-CSM-Member. I just find the process of electing the Chair to be extremely unfortunate, because it gave us an inadequate Chair. If Jade had done the sensible thing(given his support of an elected Chair) and stepped down as Chair right off the bat, this would all have been avoided, or at least deserved if he got re-elected to the spot. But he didn't - I'm still not entirely sure why not, though I could hazard a guess at this point - and so we're left with this mess.
Ah, that's what it'd seemed like from your posts. Sorry to have misrepresented you, I'll go back and edit my post.
It's cool, and I see where you got that interpretation from. I just wanted to make myself clear. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 16:31:00 -
[219]
Originally by: Jane Spondogolo [ Jade and friends: This proposal clarifies Jades power, and gives her a mandate to work from that allows the role to be done properly whilst providing a canonical reference to give that mandate. Everyone wins.
I'd welcome such a document, but only from CCP. I don't think any current member of the CSM or player supporter of CSM members has the required neutral perspective to be involved with this.
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Jane Spondogolo
NoobWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 16:37:00 -
[220]
I understand your position Jade. I totally empathise with it. Its a ***** to be chair in a hostile senate. But CCP seem to of left the question open.
The scope documents provide a power to make sugestions to them. What I propose is you guys take the document I've made as a *template*. Sculpt it into something that works for you guys, and present it to CCP as a proposal on how it should work.
Anyone whos worked with comittees will tell you that whats happening is growing pains of a new body corporate. The solution is always to clarify the procedure. If you dont Jade, people will always question your mandate.
Make it easy for yourself. Jade, I'll put it to you to champion my proposal. This will demonstate a comitment to process, and make it beyond question that this comittee can be made to work.
I'm trying to make a way that works for you. Recognise it big fella. |
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Plumpy McPudding
Pator Tech School
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 17:13:00 -
[221]
It would appear that Jade is a few clowns short of a circus. __________________________
Fear me for I have an insatiable appetite! Proprietor and inventor of Chocolate Donut flavored Ice Cream. |
Walumachoncha SA
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 17:54:00 -
[222]
we need a cohesive CSM, not a stage for narcissistic powertrips.
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VCBee 556
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Posted - 2008.06.11 17:56:00 -
[223]
nt
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Dak
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 18:04:00 -
[224]
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Miner Nine
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 23:24:00 -
[225]
At least this shows you can't have the chair be decided on most votes. It's vastly important for a chair to remain neutral to create a good enviroment for serious internet spaceship dicussion. This is a clear example of the chair not remaining neutral and punishing a CSM rep for no valid reason.
If Jade has ever been to a public meeting in their life, they would of realize that people can Object to a vote at any time. It seem quite clear that Jade completely change what they were voting on to give their own bias opinion. Then when they lost the vote, lash out at a CSM rep whom call them on it with two other CSM rep agreeing. |
Teh Doylan
DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 23:24:00 -
[226]
Jade if you feel like you have done nothing wrong, then allow the council to have a vote of no confidence and confidence in you at a time when all the original CSM representatives (not alternates) can be online. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 23:31:00 -
[227]
Originally by: Teh Doylan Jade if you feel like you have done nothing wrong, then allow the council to have a vote of no confidence and confidence in you at a time when all the original CSM representatives (not alternates) can be online.
I'm not in favor of any player measure that changes the constitution that hasn't been raised as an issue, been open for public debate for 7 days, been advocated to the CSM by a rep, and passed a simple majority there, documented as a submission proposal and been presented to CCP in the formal discussions at the conference.
(these coincidently are the steps that have been taken with the "electable chair" Issue I raised)
If any CSM rep had chosen to support this thread they could have done exactly the same and we'd be discussing the constitutional change to allow this in Iceland. As yet none have.
This is the only way such a vote could happen and I'm certainly not in favour of subverting the founding documentation to let people play politics with a CSM body that is not designed for this purpose.
So in short. Request denied. If anybody feels I've done something wrong they can certainly ask a rep to advocate this topic for them. Or complain to ccp I guess.
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Siona Windweaver
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 23:32:00 -
[228]
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Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 23:33:00 -
[229]
Edited by: Aprudena Gist on 11/06/2008 23:32:56
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Teh Doylan Jade if you feel like you have done nothing wrong, then allow the council to have a vote of no confidence and confidence in you at a time when all the original CSM representatives (not alternates) can be online.
I'm not in favor of any player measure that changes the constitution that hasn't been raised as an issue, been open for public debate for 7 days, been advocated to the CSM by a rep, and passed a simple majority there, documented as a submission proposal and been presented to CCP in the formal discussions at the conference.
(these coincidently are the steps that have been taken with the "electable chair" Issue I raised)
If any CSM rep had chosen to support this thread they could have done exactly the same and we'd be discussing the constitutional change to allow this in Iceland. As yet none have.
This is the only way such a vote could happen and I'm certainly not in favour of subverting the founding documentation to let people play politics with a CSM body that is not designed for this purpose.
So in short. Request denied. If anybody feels I've done something wrong they can certainly ask a rep to advocate this topic for them. Or complain to ccp I guess.
So Apparely you can deny Darius Mail about the Vote of no Confidence then anyways? |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 23:58:00 -
[230]
Originally by: Aprudena Gist So Apparely you can deny Darius Mail about the Vote of no Confidence then anyways?
Can I ask what you are talking about please?
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
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Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 23:59:00 -
[231]
Edited by: Aprudena Gist on 11/06/2008 23:59:13
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Aprudena Gist So Apparely you can deny Darius Mail about the Vote of no Confidence then anyways?
Can I ask what you are talking about please?
He send a Mail the other day on your Fancy E-Mail List thing about a vote of no confidence in the chairman of the CSM i do believe and you said you would not add item so said agenda for the meeting.
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 00:02:00 -
[232]
Originally by: Aprudena Gist Edited by: Aprudena Gist on 11/06/2008 23:59:13
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Aprudena Gist So Apparely you can deny Darius Mail about the Vote of no Confidence then anyways?
Can I ask what you are talking about please?
He send a Mail the other day on your Fancy E-Mail List thing about a vote of no confidence in the chairman of the CSM i do believe and you said you would not add item so said agenda for the meeting.
Really, he was talking about things on our private e-mail list? Thats a little bit unprofessional.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 00:08:00 -
[233]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Aprudena Gist Edited by: Aprudena Gist on 11/06/2008 23:59:13
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Aprudena Gist So Apparely you can deny Darius Mail about the Vote of no Confidence then anyways?
Can I ask what you are talking about please?
He send a Mail the other day on your Fancy E-Mail List thing about a vote of no confidence in the chairman of the CSM i do believe and you said you would not add item so said agenda for the meeting.
Really, he was talking about things on our private e-mail list? Thats a little bit unprofessional.
He's allowed to talk about anything he said himself i dont really see an issue with it i can understand if he was showing us your e-mails or anyone else's emails but showing his own is perfectly fine. |
Shadako
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 00:24:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Aprudena Gist Edited by: Aprudena Gist on 11/06/2008 23:59:13
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Aprudena Gist So Apparely you can deny Darius Mail about the Vote of no Confidence then anyways?
Can I ask what you are talking about please?
He send a Mail the other day on your Fancy E-Mail List thing about a vote of no confidence in the chairman of the CSM i do believe and you said you would not add item so said agenda for the meeting.
Really, he was talking about things on our private e-mail list? Thats a little bit unprofessional.
You of all people talking about something being unprofessional is peak irony at this point. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 00:29:00 -
[235]
Originally by: Aprudena Gist He's allowed to talk about anything he said himself i dont really see an issue with it i can understand if he was showing us your e-mails or anyone else's emails but showing his own is perfectly fine.
Well you said he told you what I said too? I didn't give permission for him to talk about my emails.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 00:31:00 -
[236]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Aprudena Gist He's allowed to talk about anything he said himself i dont really see an issue with it i can understand if he was showing us your e-mails or anyone else's emails but showing his own is perfectly fine.
Well you said he told you what I said too? I didn't give permission for him to talk about my emails.
The General gist of the information is not what's at stake here the only thing would be an actual quote.
|
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 00:48:00 -
[237]
Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 12/06/2008 00:48:36
Originally by: Aprudena Gist The General gist of the information is not what's at stake here the only thing would be an actual quote.
Not true - a private list is private, and breaking privacy on such a list short of admission of criminal acts(and I mean real crime, not the odd joint or jaywalk) is a really low thing to do - both on Darius' part and on yours. If you can't keep a secret, you won't get to see any in future.
Besides, breaking privacy on what happens on such a list just shows a lack of imagination - we have a history in the CSM now of issues being added via CSM member request on the forums. If Darius wanted to ***** about Jade not adding this issue, he should have just calmly posted a link to it in the Meeting 5 thread on Jita Park, and asked for it to be heard at that meeting. The private is kept private, and the same ends are achieved. Everybody who needs to know what happened still does, and he comes out of it looking better and embarrassing Jade even more to the other CSMs that would be the case otherwise. Not only is it stupid and immature to break privacy on the list, it shows a terrible deficiency of deftness. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
JafoPBCFR
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 00:49:00 -
[238]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Aprudena Gist Edited by: Aprudena Gist on 11/06/2008 23:59:13
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Aprudena Gist So Apparely you can deny Darius Mail about the Vote of no Confidence then anyways?
Can I ask what you are talking about please?
He send a Mail the other day on your Fancy E-Mail List thing about a vote of no confidence in the chairman of the CSM i do believe and you said you would not add item so said agenda for the meeting.
Really, he was talking about things on our private e-mail list? Thats a little bit unprofessional.
WOW!!! HELLO POT MEET KETTLE! Dude you make GW Bush look like a Einstein!
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Anthony Pants
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 00:59:00 -
[239]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Aprudena Gist He's allowed to talk about anything he said himself i dont really see an issue with it i can understand if he was showing us your e-mails or anyone else's emails but showing his own is perfectly fine.
Well you said he told you what I said too? I didn't give permission for him to talk about my emails.
Anyone else on the council can talk about their e-mails just fine, and we all know anything and everything you've been saying has been footstomping and temper tantrums.
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Nynaeve Ares
Animus Incarnate
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 01:02:00 -
[240]
If the majority of CSM believes you incapable of doing your job and disruptive you should step down, it shouldn't have to fall to CCP to tell you that.
|
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Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 01:03:00 -
[241]
Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 12/06/2008 01:07:42
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 12/06/2008 00:48:36
Not true - a private list is private, and breaking privacy on such a list short of admission of criminal acts(and I mean real crime, not the odd joint or jaywalk) is a really low thing to do - both on Darius' part and on yours. If you can't keep a secret, you won't get to see any in future.
Besides, breaking privacy on what happens on such a list just shows a lack of imagination - we have a history in the CSM now of issues being added via CSM member request on the forums. If Darius wanted to ***** about Jade not adding this issue, he should have just calmly posted a link to it in the Meeting 5 thread on Jita Park, and asked for it to be heard at that meeting. The private is kept private, and the same ends are achieved. Everybody who needs to know what happened still does, and he comes out of it looking better and embarrassing Jade even more to the other CSMs that would be the case otherwise. Not only is it stupid and immature to break privacy on the list, it shows a terrible deficiency of deftness.
There has never been any, implied or otherwise, expectation of privacy on the mailing list. I talked with people about what we were discussing, as I'm sure others have. I have friends. I tell them what I'm doing. Now if I went and forwarded all the emails I'd agree that would have been wrong. But merely saying "Hey here's what I was discussing" is far from a breach of privacy and I submit that the only reason people are taking umbrage with it is that they're ashamed of themselves and their actions. They should be.
:edit: I'd like to note as well that you were aware of this before ever posting your response and acting ignorant because I told you. Yesterday. I also included everyone else on the mailing list in that statement. OH MY GOD IVE DONE IT AGAIN!!!!
|
Anthony Pants
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 01:07:00 -
[242]
Originally by: Nynaeve Ares If the majority of CSM believes you incapable of doing your job and disruptive you should step down, it shouldn't have to fall to CCP to tell you that.
BUT IT IS HIS JOB TO TELL THEM HOW TO BEHAVE AND THEY HAVE BEEN MISBEHAVING NAUGHTY LITTLE CHILDREN AND ARE DESERVING OF A TIME-OUT |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 01:14:00 -
[243]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON There has never been any, implied or otherwise, expectation of privacy on the mailing list. I talked with people about what we were discussing, as I'm sure others have. I have friends. I tell them what I'm doing. Now if I went and forwarded all the emails I'd agree that would have been wrong. But merely saying "Hey here's what I was discussing" is far from a breach of privacy and I submit that the only reason people are taking umbrage with it is that they're ashamed of themselves and their actions. They should be.
:edit: I'd like to note as well that you were aware of this before ever posting your response and acting ignorant because I told you. Yesterday. I also included everyone else on the mailing list in that statement. OH MY GOD IVE DONE IT AGAIN!!!!
If you mentioned it to Aprudena with the expectation of privacy then I'll largely let you off the hook - I don't mind confidantes. But it's still on you to make sure that it doesn't go public.
Also, I'm not sure that you're referring to me with the edit - we've never had a conversation of any type that wasn't through these forums, so I doubt that you've told em anything. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
Pnuka
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 01:17:00 -
[244]
Edited by: Pnuka on 12/06/2008 01:18:25
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON There has never been any, implied or otherwise, expectation of privacy on the mailing list. I talked with people about what we were discussing, as I'm sure others have. I have friends. I tell them what I'm doing. Now if I went and forwarded all the emails I'd agree that would have been wrong. But merely saying "Hey here's what I was discussing" is far from a breach of privacy and I submit that the only reason people are taking umbrage with it is that they're ashamed of themselves and their actions. They should be.
I think you should view the terms of service you agreed with when you signed up to that mailing list Darius. Serenity is the provider of that mailing list and you should go and have a read of his last message before you continue this line of argument.
You might also want to review your decision to raise the publication of emails from that list on sundays agenda. Up to you, but might save us all some time.
Are you threatening to have him sued?
|
Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 01:17:00 -
[245]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
I think you should view the terms of service you agreed with when you signed up to that mailing list Darius. Serenity is the provider of that mailing list and you should go and have a read of his last message before you continue this line of argument.
You might also want to review your decision to raise the publication of emails from that list on sundays agenda. Up to you, but might save us all some time.
You read my response to this exact question yesterday. That's fine though I'm not afraid of it being public. I republished nothing. Therefore I've violated no terms of service. If serenity wants to remove the email account I don't need and never asked for that's his business. One less mailbox for me to monitor.
I still intend to motion to have the emails published on Sunday. It's not mine or the CSMs problem if Serenity's mail system ends up being incompatible with the needs of the CSM. In that case we picked the wrong tool for the job.
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Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 01:19:00 -
[246]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
If you mentioned it to Aprudena with the expectation of privacy then I'll largely let you off the hook - I don't mind confidantes. But it's still on you to make sure that it doesn't go public.
Also, I'm not sure that you're referring to me with the edit - we've never had a conversation of any type that wasn't through these forums, so I doubt that you've told em anything.
Sorry on the last point. I was talking to Jade. Regarding the expectation of privacy... The conversation was mentioned on a private forum but so what? If I decide to share my discussions with others that's my prerogative. I'm a PUBLIC OFFICIAL. My voters have a right to know what the council is doing.
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Olga Mokroff
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 01:25:00 -
[247]
quality drama here. moar plox
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 01:31:00 -
[248]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Sorry on the last point. I was talking to Jade. Regarding the expectation of privacy... The conversation was mentioned on a private forum but so what? If I decide to share my discussions with others that's my prerogative. I'm a PUBLIC OFFICIAL. My voters have a right to know what the council is doing.
I assumed something like that had happened.
As for the "it's my right" defence, it probably is, but I wasn't arguing legalities or even moralities. I was just saying that's not how you should do business - public is public, private is private, and never the twain shall meet. Even if you had the right to republish every CSM internal email of your own accord, you would not be right to do so. It's one of those unwritten rules about how to conduct yourself in general, and in politics in particular - don't rat people out and break confidences without a damn good reason. |
sakana
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 01:36:00 -
[249]
|
Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 01:39:00 -
[250]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
I assumed something like that had happened.
As for the "it's my right" defence, it probably is, but I wasn't arguing legalities or even moralities. I was just saying that's not how you should do business - public is public, private is private, and never the twain shall meet. Even if you had the right to republish every CSM internal email of your own accord, you would not be right to do so. It's one of those unwritten rules about how to conduct yourself in general, and in politics in particular - don't rat people out and break confidences without a damn good reason.
I had no reason to believe any confidences existed. Now the point is moot because I've made it clear that nothing said to me is private when it comes to council discussion. Again... nothing whatsoever save some of my OWN emails was published. All of this was known and explained to the entire council yesterday. A good question would be why is Jade feigning shock and indignance today? This is old news at this point. |
|
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 01:43:00 -
[251]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON I had no reason to believe any confidences existed. Now the point is moot because I've made it clear that nothing said to me is private when it comes to council discussion. Again... nothing whatsoever save some of my OWN emails was published. All of this was known and explained to the entire council yesterday. A good question would be why is Jade feigning shock and indignance today? This is old news at this point.
As long as you've made that clear, fine. I'm sure the 8-man mailing list will get lots of traffic. As for Jade's reaction, I haven't seen too much shock, and the indignance could well be legit. |
Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 01:46:00 -
[252]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
As long as you've made that clear, fine. I'm sure the 8-man mailing list will get lots of traffic. As for Jade's reaction, I haven't seen too much shock, and the indignance could well be legit.
Here I'll quote the bits I'm referring to for you:
Originally by: Jade Constantine Really, he was talking about things on our private e-mail list? Thats a little bit unprofessional.
Originally by: Jade Constantine Well you said he told you what I said too? I didn't give permission for him to talk about my emails.
|
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 01:47:00 -
[253]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto As long as you've made that clear, fine. I'm sure the 8-man mailing list will get lots of traffic. As for Jade's reaction, I haven't seen too much shock, and the indignance could well be legit.
Not much shock thats true. And not much actual drama. I think its poor to break confidences once agreed though.
|
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 01:50:00 -
[254]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
As long as you've made that clear, fine. I'm sure the 8-man mailing list will get lots of traffic. As for Jade's reaction, I haven't seen too much shock, and the indignance could well be legit.
Here I'll quote the bits I'm referring to for you:
Originally by: Jade Constantine Really, he was talking about things on our private e-mail list? Thats a little bit unprofessional.
Originally by: Jade Constantine Well you said he told you what I said too? I didn't give permission for him to talk about my emails.
Okay, yeah, if what you say is true then he's hamming that up. |
Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 01:53:00 -
[255]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Okay, yeah, if what you say is true then he's hamming that up.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=792898&page=8#226
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=792898&page=8#228
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=792898&page=8#231 |
Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 01:54:00 -
[256]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Not much shock thats true. And not much actual drama. I think its poor to break confidences once agreed though.
Don't imply that I've agreed to anything. I haven't and you know that. I said as much in the email you're pretending I didn't send yesterday. |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 02:00:00 -
[257]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Okay, yeah, if what you say is true then he's hamming that up.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=792898&page=8#226
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=792898&page=8#228
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=792898&page=8#231
I wasn't referring to your Jade quotes with the "if what you say is true", I was referring to the bit about how the Council already knew. |
teji
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 02:04:00 -
[258]
Edited by: teji on 12/06/2008 02:04:46 We have a long way to go. I bolded where we are at. The silly part is Jade has brought this grief upon his or her self.
* Denial * Anger * Bargaining * Depression * Acceptance |
Pnuka
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 02:05:00 -
[259]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Okay, yeah, if what you say is true then he's hamming that up.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=792898&page=8#226
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=792898&page=8#228
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=792898&page=8#231
I wasn't referring to your Jade quotes with the "if what you say is true", I was referring to the bit about how the Council already knew.
Well, add this to another reason Jade will be voting against releasing them. |
Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 02:06:00 -
[260]
Originally by: Pnuka
Well, add this to another reason Jade will be voting against releasing them.
They're MY emails. Jade's consent doesn't come into play. Nor does anyone else's. |
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Anton Marvik
AnTi. Atrocitas
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 02:06:00 -
[261]
Edited by: Anton Marvik on 12/06/2008 02:06:57 Edited by: Anton Marvik on 12/06/2008 02:06:43 Quick, somebody go back and find those posts where Jade was saying he supported full transparency and such. I'm getting lazy.
Also, I support my own topic. |
Kul Teras
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.06.12 03:04:00 -
[262]
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Virtuoso DeToure
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.12 03:07:00 -
[263]
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Anthony Pants
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Posted - 2008.06.12 03:29:00 -
[264]
Originally by: Anton Marvik Edited by: Anton Marvik on 12/06/2008 02:06:57 Edited by: Anton Marvik on 12/06/2008 02:06:43 Quick, somebody go back and find those posts where Jade was saying he supported full transparency and such. I'm getting lazy.
Also, I support my own topic.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=779999&page=1#3
Originally by: Jade Constantine We could perhaps snip the material before the formal beginning of the meeting and after the formal closing of the meeting Inanna - thats just chatter in the main.
But I must admit I'm personally a believer in complete transparency in these matters and I think the electorate do deserve to see how we conduct ourselves in the course of formal meetings. Who knows, perhaps knowing that we are open to full scrutiny might even help us all better focus on the task at hand. Its also possible that the electorate actually seeing us in the process of discussions in the CSM context will gain a better understanding of the task and issues and be more sympathetic to the challenges we all face. On principle though, would you be for or against (or abstain) on the issue of publicizing the raw meeting log Inanna? I'd like a quick show of hands on the issue please.
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Anton Marvik
AnTi. Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.06.12 03:31:00 -
[265]
o/\o |
Nagi Sanzenin
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Posted - 2008.06.12 04:12:00 -
[266]
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Qlanth
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.12 04:57:00 -
[267]
What is the constitution that Jade keeps talking about? Was it written by the council? Was it written by CCP? Can anyone link to it? |
Fallorn
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.12 05:28:00 -
[268]
Their is no constitution he made it up. |
Phaeydra
Bat Country Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2008.06.12 06:33:00 -
[269]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON In that case we picked the wrong tool for the job.
I guess we all know that feeling.
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Samuel Harrow
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.06.12 07:00:00 -
[270]
Edited by: Samuel Harrow on 12/06/2008 07:00:34
Originally by: Phaeydra
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON In that case we picked the wrong tool for the job.
I guess we all know that feeling.
But I think we can all say that a tool certainly was picked for this job....
Supported. |
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hammyhamm
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.12 07:22:00 -
[271]
I care alot about this game, which is why I invest alot of my personal time in it. Jade has shown his character, and it is one that is not suitable for running on the chair of a council that I have entrusted the future of my game to. Supported. |
RDevz
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.12 08:03:00 -
[272]
Jade is a loose cannon. He should be taken off the case. |
Kyguard
Game-Over Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.06.12 08:24:00 -
[273]
Edited by: Kyguard on 12/06/2008 08:25:33 I haven't really cared about this CSM and decided to poke into it. I read 4 threads thoroughly and I've gotta agree, Jade can't handle power or things beyond his control.
Maybe that's not enough to say anything on the matter, but that's what I've gathered. |
Esmenet
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Posted - 2008.06.12 09:39:00 -
[274]
Clearly unsuitable for the task, |
Riesia
Star Bucks.
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 10:19:00 -
[275]
From what I have seen on jades behaviour I must support the removal of Jade.
I will be very highly surprised if anything comes of this though. |
Dariah Stardweller
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Posted - 2008.06.12 10:33:00 -
[276]
Any place I can find the chatlogs of this event? |
Tharrn
Vigilia Valeria Expeditionary Forces
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Posted - 2008.06.12 10:36:00 -
[277]
Edited by: Tharrn on 12/06/2008 10:36:38 I am not exactly known to be Jade's bumchum but this is taking on ridicolous proportions. I think the message that people are unhappy with Jade's conduct during the last meeting has come across by now.
If this persists all the important issues will get burried in all the 'OUTRAGE!' threads. Or maybe that is exactly the plan: to just undermine the CSM and make sure it gets nothing done, which would be a shame as it is in general a good idea.
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Lonak Silu
GeoCorp. Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2008.06.12 10:42:00 -
[278]
After reading the logs, different threads and observing the behavior of the main actors of this "drama", I wanted to make a comedy post here, asking to not throw J.Constantine out of his (so loved) chair just for the sake of the good lulz.
But I came across a (now locked)thread in an external forums (SHC) about this CSM thing. I was literaly shocked to see the posts of that guy there, and I was even more disgusted when I saw his website linked there (concerning his "roleplay").
So, I decided to come here and vote against that..guy.
Not only because of his "roleplay" choices, but mainly because of his psychotic dictatorial behavior, and his inaptitude to handle a process who will maybe decide of our future gameplay.
now, to get back on his roleplay choices : I would like to tell him that it's the kind of stuffs that made a bad name of roleplay in general, and you must not forget that there is also kids playing this game. Roleplaying in an Internet spaceship game should be about : spaceships, politics and economics. Nothing else.
(Lets cut short your paranoia : I'm not a Goon alt. I think I even shooted at them once.)
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Ethaet
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.06.12 10:42:00 -
[279]
Edited by: Ethaet on 12/06/2008 10:43:00
Originally by: Dariah Stardweller Any place I can find the chatlogs of this event?
http://www.eve-csm.com/meetings/chatlogs/20080608councilofstellarmanagementlogs.rtf |
Esmenet
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 10:55:00 -
[280]
Originally by: Tharrn Edited by: Tharrn on 12/06/2008 10:36:38 I am not exactly known to be Jade's bumchum but this is taking on ridicolous proportions. I think the message that people are unhappy with Jade's conduct during the last meeting has come across by now.
If it was only the last meeting things would have blown over by now. But jade keeps putting more fuel on the fire with practically every post he makes.
He should have just said sorry and moved on. |
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JafoPBCFR
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Posted - 2008.06.12 11:06:00 -
[281]
Jade seriously. Step Down you have Gone way way to far. Your Refusal to even look at the fact your wrong. You are a GOONSWARM hater. you see them everywhere you turn. Do you check under your bed too?
Read up on McCarthyism. And Read up on how much of a nut he was. Your rite up there with him. Seek some RL professional help. |
sophisticatedlimabean
Terra Incognita.
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Posted - 2008.06.12 12:03:00 -
[282]
Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 12/06/2008 12:05:24
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Tharrn
I am not exactly known to be Jade's bumchum but this is taking on ridicolous proportions. I think the message that people are unhappy with Jade's conduct during the last meeting has come across by now.
If it was only the last meeting things would have blown over by now. But jade keeps putting more fuel on the fire with practically every post he makes.
He should have just said sorry and moved on.
Actually he said "screw you" (or words to that effect) and then moved on.
Unfortunately the rest of you did not so he is still responding to your crap, he should have joined goons as the sort of behavior they are criticizing in him is something they applaud in and from their members.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
GO MaZ
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 12:29:00 -
[283]
The whole idea was to make the CSM a channel whereby we (paying customers) may voice our issues with CCP via community reps. After reading the logs of the meeting where all this occurred and the subsequent postings by Jade on this subject, I've come to realise that the CSM is chaired by someone in it for his own benefit and who has no intention of being a neutral chair.
Basically, get out. If you keep this crap up the CSM will get nowhere. |
Leonora Webb
CompleXion Industries
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Posted - 2008.06.12 12:40:00 -
[284]
Disappointing behaviour. |
Qaedienne
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Posted - 2008.06.12 12:41:00 -
[285]
Originally by: Aprudena Gist Edited by: Aprudena Gist on 11/06/2008 23:59:13
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Aprudena Gist So Apparely you can deny Darius Mail about the Vote of no Confidence then anyways?
Can I ask what you are talking about please?
He send a Mail the other day on your Fancy E-Mail List thing about a vote of no confidence in the chairman of the CSM i do believe and you said you would not add item so said agenda for the meeting.
Is/should it even be possible for the council to alter a position determined by popular vote in the CSM elections?
I'd say no.
Also, Goons continuing to stir **** up just shows that despite all their talk, they are undemocratic. They are all in favor of democratic elections, they are not in favor of the results of democratic elections. |
fuze
InfoMorph Services Ltd
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Posted - 2008.06.12 13:00:00 -
[286]
After giving this a long thought I just started to wonder if Jade seems to realize that he has a huge responsibility on his shoulders representing all those who voted for him. And same goes for the rest of the CSM. You all have to learn to work together and really think about improving Eve by representing the views of the players.
As CSM, your actions have RL consequences with possible influence of jobs at CCP. Think about it. |
Telaan
Pat Sharp's Potato Rodeo Daedalus Hegemony
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Posted - 2008.06.12 13:08:00 -
[287]
What's kept my attention is how Jade has managed to make Goons look good with his actions. Considering they are generally a group of rowdy hooligans who happily play to the limits of allowable behaviour in game (hi2u Jihadswarm and Recruitment channel people), this is quite an accomplishment.
I'm also gonna disagree with some of the views in this thread about Darius being disruptive and trying to break the CSM process. If anything, he's trying to get its sorry ass up and running and looking to actually get stuff done.
Jade, can you either sort this mess out ASAP or just give up the chair to someone who will actually treat the position properly? The CSM are the players chance to voice their issues to CCP, through the CSM, and you have so far managed to sandbag it terribly. |
Savesti Kyrsst
White-Noise
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Posted - 2008.06.12 13:31:00 -
[288]
Inanna had every right to act as she did. I think she acted very reasonably after having one vote editorialised and then being locked out of channel (apparently accidentally) for a revote.
After reading all this thread and all the logs (good grief), yes. |
Nynaeve Ares
Animus Incarnate
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Posted - 2008.06.12 13:42:00 -
[289]
Originally by: Qaedienne
Is/should it even be possible for the council to alter a position determined by popular vote in the CSM elections?
I'd say no.
Also, Goons continuing to stir **** up just shows that despite all their talk, they are undemocratic. They are all in favor of democratic elections, they are not in favor of the results of democratic elections.
I'd say yes, lets go for a RL analogy here. If your president/leader of choice goes bat**** insane in the middle of his/her term and starts firing nukes off all over the place do the vice-president/leader and all the other elected leaders say "oh crap, we voted for this idiot we got two more years of this"? No! There are ways of removing incompetents. As there should be a way of removing Jade. |
Damion Zyne
Des Esseintes Social Club
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 13:51:00 -
[290]
*Yawn* I cant belive you started yet another thread about it.
Since he got elected as chair people started campaigning to get him out of this position. The only thing Jade should be sorry about is giving this bunch another reason by an not needed mute. Even TT and Verone (who stated that he is happy that he stepped out of CSM so he cant be that worried about the outcome of it)jumped into it crying "Censorship" where there was moderating and waving their names to score some easy eve-celeb points.
Also, CCP wake up and help the guys to sort some basic rules out. If this fails, its to a great part your fault, giving it not enough consideration. Dont think you can hide behind the poor sods (thats all the CSM reps)who stood up and tried (more or less) to make this work.
No support for this. Only CCP should be allowed to replace the chair. Also, CCP should indeed get a DEV to do chair as no player will be neutral and able to defend against claims to be biased.
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sophisticatedlimabean
Terra Incognita.
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Posted - 2008.06.12 14:01:00 -
[291]
Originally by: Nynaeve Ares
Originally by: Qaedienne
Is/should it even be possible for the council to alter a position determined by popular vote in the CSM elections?
I'd say no.
Also, Goons continuing to stir **** up just shows that despite all their talk, they are undemocratic. They are all in favor of democratic elections, they are not in favor of the results of democratic elections.
I'd say yes, lets go for a RL analogy here. If your president/leader of choice goes bat**** insane in the middle of his/her term and starts firing nukes off all over the place do the vice-president/leader and all the other elected leaders say "oh crap, we voted for this idiot we got two more years of this"? No! There are ways of removing incompetents. As there should be a way of removing Jade.
I am sure that if jade does go "bat ****" insane and starts trashing ccp offices they will do something about it. But until then comparing his muting of a disruptive member to mass world wide murder is just pathetic.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Morgenreiter
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 14:06:00 -
[292]
Not supported. I¦m a pretty new player and all these things about goons or whatever don¦t interest me. What interests me is, if someone speaks mature (so far as it is possible in a game environment), with reason and is open for dialogue and not just sending his opinions.
Another point is that this is a destrucive issue. A construcive would have been to propose another CSM member for chair. But even if: The issue about how the chair is chosen out is -already- on the agenda with ccp as far as i understood.
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Nynaeve Ares
Animus Incarnate
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Posted - 2008.06.12 14:17:00 -
[293]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
I am sure that if jade does go "bat ****" insane and starts trashing ccp offices they will do something about it. But until then comparing his muting of a disruptive member to mass world wide murder is just pathetic.
Do you fear the apocalypse?
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sophisticatedlimabean
Terra Incognita.
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Posted - 2008.06.12 14:32:00 -
[294]
Originally by: Nynaeve Ares
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
I am sure that if jade does go "bat ****" insane and starts trashing ccp offices they will do something about it.
But until then comparing his muting of a disruptive member to mass world wide murder is just pathetic.
Do you fear the apocalypse?
Keep posting you are giving a good example for your "bat **** crazy" theory. |
Nynaeve Ares
Animus Incarnate
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Posted - 2008.06.12 14:54:00 -
[295]
Say that with your main! Filthy alt.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.06.12 16:22:00 -
[296]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 12/06/2008 16:23:49
Originally by: Morgenreiter Not supported. I¦m a pretty new player and all these things about goons or whatever don¦t interest me. What interests me is, if someone speaks mature (so far as it is possible in a game environment), with reason and is open for dialogue and not just sending his opinions.
Another point is that this is a destrucive issue. A construcive would have been to propose another CSM member for chair. But even if: The issue about how the chair is chosen out is -already- on the agenda with ccp as far as i understood.
Yep the " Electable Chair"Issue was raised by me (ironically). It was posted on the Assembly hall for 7 days public discussion (tick) It got public support AND CSM member endorsement (tick) Raised on the agenda in a formal CSM meeting (tick) Got voted for by the CSM committee 4/2/2 (tick) I documented it yesterday and sent it to the CSM secretary (tick) And its getting submitted to CCP 7 days in advance of the conference as specified in our docs (tick)
This is how you get Issues that can impact the constitution/foundation documentation of the CSM into formal discussion. I've explained this quite a few times.
What would have been nice to see on the agenda as well would have been Issues raising the question of a non-voting CCP provided Chair. A rotating Chair, proposals of that sort. I think there is a problem with a voting CSM member acting in the role of Chair, and its something we need to consider, but we do need to raise Issues in the proper fashion.
This kind of thread (op post) doesn't help much because its just a lot shouting and no CSM advocacy. As long as it doesn't gain 5% of total player base in support (or specific CSM advocacy) it won't get added to the agenda automatically. But even getting a thread like this onto Issues agenda doesn't mean the Issue (itself) could get voted on there and then in any case, the principle of whether we in the CSM think its an important matter for the player base as a whole will be considered on the CSM and a vote held on the subject of whether we commend the Issue to CCP's attention: if it gets through that vote then it must then be raised in the CSM/CCP discussions at the formal conference since CCP need to have final sign off on any of these constitutional changes.
I'd like to see more people actively trying to understand the process at work here since it would render the apparent motivation behind a lot of these threads void and let us see more important Issues getting the air time they deserve.
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fuze
InfoMorph Services Ltd
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Posted - 2008.06.12 21:57:00 -
[297]
Originally by: Jade Constantine I'd like to see more people actively trying to understand the process at work here since it would render the apparent motivation behind a lot of these threads void and let us see more important Issues getting the air time they deserve.
You think this isn't important?
If CSM wouldn't be able to get their act together all issues wouldn't get handled properly. You don't have to agree or even like each other. Just that you accept your responsibility to give this your utmost best to make it work. That applies to all members. That you owe to all the people that voted for you. |
Morgenrei
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Posted - 2008.06.12 22:02:00 -
[298]
(Sorry, the MorgenreiTER was the first try char...)
Just some thoughts out of political experience:
The chairman/woman of an institution (the council in this case) and of a meeting don¦t HAVE to be the same. In RL-politics the chair of an institution, it can be several but this makes some things more complicated, is the representative for outer relations, like media and so on. The chair of a conference can rotate or be elected at the beginning of each session.
A big question is, if the council really MUST publish the whole log of a meeting, this is a source of endless.....like it is now. A short protocol is much more useful, even for the public. These are normally to be confirmed at the beginning of the following meeting. The discussions to the issues happen ALREADY here in the forum. If the council spends much time discussing/fighting with each other, its the councils business. Transparency would be given if it stood there how each member voted on an issue. It would certainly reduce the gossip factor. The question is if this is wanted. I¦d really like to see what kind of figure other csm members would give as moderators.
To the question of alternates as substitutes: It¦s the most normal thing of the world that when a regular member steps out, an alternate moves in and vice versa, when the regular comes back. On big party conferences you just cant sit there three days 16 hours each at all time for example. By the way: Many seem to think of the council as some party thing like "Highsecpeopleparty", "Pvpersunion", certain alliances and so on. The mechanics of the council and its election are not exactly designed in this way and this has not only consequences for the questions concerning alternates. There is a gap that needs clarification over long. |
Hegotu Alecto
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.06.12 23:24:00 -
[299]
No. i like Jade. some good stuff in the manifesto. |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.06.12 23:28:00 -
[300]
Originally by: fuze You think this isn't important?
Nope this thread isn't important.
Quote: If CSM wouldn't be able to get their act together all issues wouldn't get handled properly. You don't have to agree or even like each other. Just that you accept your responsibility to give this your utmost best to make it work. That applies to all members. That you owe to all the people that voted for you.
Latest meeting of the CSM
Thats what people getting down to the hard work of actually being CSM reps looks like.
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The Speaker
The Clue Factory
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Posted - 2008.06.13 00:29:00 -
[301]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: fuze You think this isn't important?
Nope this thread isn't important.
Wait. This is the "Remove Jade from the Chair" issue thread right?
Ok, just checking. |
Kai Zion
The Zion Accounts
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Posted - 2008.06.13 00:41:00 -
[302]
Originally by: Tharrn I am not exactly known to be Jade's bumchum but this is taking on ridiculous proportions. I think the message that people are unhappy with Jade's conduct during the last meeting has come across by now.
If this persists all the important issues will get buried in all the 'OUTRAGE!' threads. Or maybe that is exactly the plan: to just undermine the CSM and make sure it gets nothing done, which would be a shame as it is in general a good idea.
Agreed entirely Tharrn.
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Anton Marvik
AnTi. Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.06.13 01:17:00 -
[303]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Nope this thread isn't important.
Yet its got more than twice the support of your "big thread" about destructible stations.
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Khaerie
The Empire Nation Worlds End Consortium
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Posted - 2008.06.13 01:22:00 -
[304]
CSM has just begun. The first board must be the strongest as it is their task to make mistakes, discover these mistakes and then put in tools to correct these mistakes.
The only thing I would request is to please not get bogged down in creating extra processes. I already see the red tape piling up fast. Looking for new sig |
Courthouse
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.13 01:26:00 -
[305]
Originally by: Khaerie CSM has just begun. The first board must be the strongest as it is their task to make mistakes, discover these mistakes and then put in tools to correct these mistakes.
The only thing I would request is to please not get bogged down in creating extra processes. I already see the red tape piling up fast.
There's nothing to bog down anymore when all Jade has to do is schedule meetings outside of US availability and bring in alternates for everything.
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Anthony Pants
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Posted - 2008.06.13 01:42:00 -
[306]
Originally by: Jade Constantine Nope this thread isn't important.
Nope they didn't vote for me so I don't have to listen la la la
Originally by: Jade Constantine Latest meeting of the CSM
Thats what people getting down to the hard work of actually being CSM reps looks like.
So you admit to scheduling a meeting at a time when you knew three council members could not make it as an attempt at making yourself look better. Why you think it's important to neglect the ideas of the largest alliance in the game is beyond me. |
Vanessa Vale
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 01:43:00 -
[307]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
I think you should view the terms of service you agreed with when you signed up to that mailing list Darius. Serenity is the provider of that mailing list and you should go and have a read of his last message before you continue this line of argument.
You might also want to review your decision to raise the publication of emails from that list on sundays agenda.
This gets better and better. Or worse, really.
Minmatar Boost Brigade |
Meleyn
Alternate Posting Services
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 01:44:00 -
[308]
Originally by: Courthouse There's nothing to bog down anymore when all Jade has to do is schedule meetings outside of US availability and bring in alternates for everything.
It's hardly anyone fault, but of the affected CSM representatives if they live in some exotic timezone, that doesn't allow them to fulfill their duty as members of the CSM. They should have been aware of this problem when they decided to run for CSM.
Why should the vast majority make concessions for two people who choose to live somewhere in the wilds, far off from the cradle of civilization. Thinking about it, since when are the inhabitants of the "colonies" allowed to vote on anything anyway? Their presumptuousness is really disgusting and they should be put back into their place, tbqph.
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Ikar Kaltin
Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.13 01:47:00 -
[309]
Im not going to pretend I read this thread, and Im not going to support or oppose this thread at this time since I havent read this thread. What I do know is that on a quick skim through this proposal recieved 96 (ish, give or take a few it being late) whilst other threads you have approved for discussion have recieved fewer than 20, and have been much less trolled by you Jade (helpful CSM icon lets me see when csm members post), and most notably:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=795676
Has recieved less than 4 responses and is alread promoted for the agenda by yourself. If this has recieved over 25x the support than that, then surely this thread should be at least discussed at the csm meeting?
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Sovereign533
PPN United Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.06.13 01:52:00 -
[310]
i support. being a chairman or leader of any sorts will get you a lot of negative attention and critism (people thinking they can do better and stuff).
but this chairman is supporting proposions that barely have any votes. the chair should look at the amount of votes in a thread before giving or declining support to that proposition.
a chairman representing people should never ever support something that no or almost nobody supports or agrees on. and should also never follow their own agenda. if this person does do this, they should be taken away from their function.
do i think i can do better, yes.
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Anthony Pants
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Posted - 2008.06.13 01:53:00 -
[311]
Edited by: Anthony Pants on 13/06/2008 01:54:42
Originally by: Ikar Kaltin Im not going to pretend I read this thread, and Im not going to support or oppose this thread at this time since I havent read this thread. What I do know is that on a quick skim through this proposal recieved 96 (ish, give or take a few it being late) whilst other threads you have approved for discussion have recieved fewer than 20, and have been much less trolled by you Jade (helpful CSM icon lets me see when csm members post), and most notably:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=795676
Has recieved less than 4 responses and is alread promoted for the agenda by yourself. If this has recieved over 25x the support than that, then surely this thread should be at least discussed at the csm meeting?
Jade will respond that THIS IS WHAT HE HAS BEEN DOING GOD LEAVE HIM ALONE STOP TROLLING YOU TROLL
Unfortunately, this thread is about removing Jade Constantine from the council, not asking for CCP to give the council permission to vote to remove him from the council without the repercussions of getting removed from the council altogether, as it states in the CSM document.
Originally by: Sovereign533 i support. being a chairman or leader of any sorts will get you a lot of negative attention and critism (people thinking they can do better and stuff).
but this chairman is supporting proposions that barely have any votes. the chair should look at the amount of votes in a thread before giving or declining support to that proposition.
a chairman representing people should never ever support something that no or almost nobody supports or agrees on. and should also never follow their own agenda. if this person does do this, they should be taken away from their function.
do i think i can do better, yes.
Unfortunately, since it's not possible to get anywhere near 5% of the EVE population to post on these threads, that won't happen. Instead, the CSM members get to present their own pet projects to CCP. Democracy in action! |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.06.13 01:57:00 -
[312]
Originally by: Ikar Kaltin Im not going to pretend I read this thread, and Im not going to support or oppose this thread at this time since I havent read this thread. What I do know is that on a quick skim through this proposal recieved 96 (ish, give or take a few it being late) whilst other threads you have approved for discussion have recieved fewer than 20, and have been much less trolled by you Jade (helpful CSM icon lets me see when csm members post), and most notably:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=795676
Has recieved less than 4 responses and is alread promoted for the agenda by yourself. If this has recieved over 25x the support than that, then surely this thread should be at least discussed at the csm meeting?
Negative. Basically its part of our job to ignore nonsense posts. 200 supports on a nonsense issue are worth less than 1 support on a good issue. Sorry to disappoint you but threadnaughts simply mean nothing when you bring a little bit of good analysis to the table. Thats why no post like this will be advocated in good faith by a CSM delegate. A) it brings nothing to the game, and B) it would be embarrassing the CSM delegate to bring such a motion and have it voted down on the public record wasting time better alloted for decent issues.
|
Anton Marvik
AnTi. Atrocitas
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 02:06:00 -
[313]
I think if I were a megalomaniac who had gone off the reservation, I would call any motion to bring me back to reality 'nonsense' too. That doesn't make it true. |
TRI VETRA
Extraterrestrial Combat Unit New Eden Research
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 02:08:00 -
[314]
Originally by: Lonak Silu After reading the logs, different threads and observing the behavior of the main actors of this "drama", I wanted to make a comedy post here, asking to not throw J.Constantine out of his (so loved) chair just for the sake of the good lulz.
But I came across a (now locked)thread in an external forums (SHC) about this CSM thing. I was literaly shocked to see the posts of that guy there.
Same here. That thread was creepy.
|
Ikar Kaltin
Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 02:10:00 -
[315]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Ikar Kaltin Im not going to pretend I read this thread, and Im not going to support or oppose this thread at this time since I havent read this thread. What I do know is that on a quick skim through this proposal recieved 96 (ish, give or take a few it being late) whilst other threads you have approved for discussion have recieved fewer than 20, and have been much less trolled by you Jade (helpful CSM icon lets me see when csm members post), and most notably:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=795676
Has recieved less than 4 responses and is alread promoted for the agenda by yourself. If this has recieved over 25x the support than that, then surely this thread should be at least discussed at the csm meeting?
Negative. Basically its part of our job to ignore nonsense posts. 200 supports on a nonsense issue are worth less than 1 support on a good issue. Sorry to disappoint you but threadnaughts simply mean nothing when you bring a little bit of good analysis to the table. Thats why no post like this will be advocated in good faith by a CSM delegate. A) it brings nothing to the game, and B) it would be embarrassing the CSM delegate to bring such a motion and have it voted down on the public record wasting time better alloted for decent issues.
This thread seems to be brought in a well ordered manner, for example unlike the monster truck thread each comment *seemed* to have criticism attatched, promoting the debate. Just because something is aimed at you doesnt make it nonesense, and if it was nonesense then you would have surely posted once at the start saying "this is nonesense and not worthy of CSM time" and ignored the thread from then on? Replying continuously to thread you deem as "nonsense" and thus dismiss from the agenda whilst debating with people seems kinda contradictory in terms, if it was nonsense it wouldnt be worthy of your time. On the other hand if it is a concern about the CSM chairman which is worth the time of a CSM rep in the frequence you respond then should it not be brought before the council as a popular concern?
/me shrugs, just seems odd to ignore a thread directed at you with large contructive critism and debate rather than to admit it is a valid concern then to just say "Ill bring it up at the meeting, and see what the general consensus of the council is. If your right and I have no support ill step down and well elect a new chairman, if not then you can all STFU". By ignoring concerns with popular support and promoting threads with no support that you like then you just add fuel to the fire and give ammo to the people posting on this thread, and people of a similar mentality. Its your choice really, but your just making things worse by yourself by responding.
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Jade Constantine
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 02:18:00 -
[316]
Originally by: Khaerie CSM has just begun. The first board must be the strongest as it is their task to make mistakes, discover these mistakes and then put in tools to correct these mistakes.
The only thing I would request is to please not get bogged down in creating extra processes. I already see the red tape piling up fast.
We've learned that lesson really, administrative guff is going to the end of the agenda. We'll be concentrating primarily on good ISSUEs and doing our best to ignore the silly stuff from this point forward.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Anton Marvik
AnTi. Atrocitas
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 02:22:00 -
[317]
Edited by: Anton Marvik on 13/06/2008 02:22:32
Originally by: Jade Constantine We've learned that lesson really, administrative guff is going to the end of the agenda. We'll be concentrating primarily on good ISSUEs and doing our best to ignore the silly stuff from this point forward.
And you are the one that decides what constitutes a "good ISSUE" of course. How convenient. Could you quote the appropriate logs where this vote was held?
This is why you must be stopped.
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Maitsu
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 02:30:00 -
[318]
How many players need to support this until CCP decides to step in? This is getting ridiculous. |
Anthony Pants
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 02:36:00 -
[319]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Ikar Kaltin Im not going to pretend I read this thread, and Im not going to support or oppose this thread at this time since I havent read this thread. What I do know is that on a quick skim through this proposal recieved 96 (ish, give or take a few it being late) whilst other threads you have approved for discussion have recieved fewer than 20, and have been much less trolled by you Jade (helpful CSM icon lets me see when csm members post), and most notably:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=795676
Has recieved less than 4 responses and is alread promoted for the agenda by yourself. If this has recieved over 25x the support than that, then surely this thread should be at least discussed at the csm meeting?
Negative. Basically its part of our job to ignore nonsense posts. 200 supports on a nonsense issue are worth less than 1 support on a good issue. Sorry to disappoint you but threadnaughts simply mean nothing when you bring a little bit of good analysis to the table. Thats why no post like this will be advocated in good faith by a CSM delegate. A) it brings nothing to the game, and B) it would be embarrassing the CSM delegate to bring such a motion and have it voted down on the public record wasting time better alloted for decent issues.
I'm pretty sure Bane and Glorius have advocated a vote of no confidence. The rest of the council might, but they've been so antagonized by you that they've probably capitulated. It would be nice if you guys would just work with each other, like during the second meeting. |
Illaria
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 02:39:00 -
[320]
Originally by: Maitsu How many players need to support this until CCP decides to step in? This is getting ridiculous.
I hear you sister, you're absolutely right. It's a shame how long CCP tolerated this abomination that flies under the 'GoonSwarm' ticker. Time for CCP to step in and swing the banhammer. ---- Darius Johnson, not MY CSM. |
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Jade Constantine
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 02:42:00 -
[321]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 13/06/2008 02:46:33
Originally by: Maitsu How many players need to support this until CCP decides to step in? This is getting ridiculous.
by the current rules you need 5% of the player base. Thats around 11,000 supports. 10,900 to go. (It should be possible though Maitsu. You have 5000 people in goonswarm and each of these can support 3 times by abusing their alts). So you could actually manage 15,000 if you market the issue effectively internally. Get going is my advice! Either that or convince a rep to bring it up on the agenda. (of course once it gets on the agenda you still need to win 5/9 CSM votes to get it raised to the CSM/CCP conference and CCP need to approve it).
+ at some point you'll actually need some arguments rather than smack and nonsense. And comparing the CSM chair making a moderation decision to a genocidal dictator nuking half the world is probably not going to do it for you
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Atama Cardel
Even-Flow
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 03:06:00 -
[322]
Edited by: Atama Cardel on 13/06/2008 03:08:03 Why does the CSM even need an authority figure other than to decide when the meetings will be held? It's 9 guys/girls discussing a video game, not congress, the UN or something like that. |
CLAM DAWN
University of Caille
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 03:10:00 -
[323]
Edited by: CLAM DAWN on 13/06/2008 03:10:41 It wasn't supposed to be like this. Jade just decided to grant itself power. |
Anthony Pants
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 03:25:00 -
[324]
Originally by: Jade Constantine by the current rules you need 5% of the player base. Thats around 11,000 supports. 10,900 to go. (It should be possible though Maitsu. You have 5000 people in goonswarm and each of these can support 3 times by abusing their alts). So you could actually manage 15,000 if you market the issue effectively internally. Get going is my advice! Either that or convince a rep to bring it up on the agenda. (of course once it gets on the agenda you still need to win 5/9 CSM votes to get it raised to the CSM/CCP conference and CCP need to approve it).
Good thing we don't need to worry about all that, since GoonSwarm has two reps in it. Maybe if they were actually in Thursday's meeting, you all wouldn't have wasted ten minutes on word processors. Where's the moderation? Can't you show a little neutrality, or did you have to mute yourself so you didn't appear like an ass? |
The Icefox
Under the Wings of Fury Atrocitas
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 03:33:00 -
[325]
I fully support the impeachment of Jade Constantine. Bored during down time? Try this. |
Trickster Lokee
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 03:36:00 -
[326]
All I need to do is put the thumbs up here correct? This is my first time participating in such a wonderful democratic process. I like the idea that we can get rid of a CSM for failing at their job particularly one who sees fit to prevent open discourse by muting other CSM.
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Sepuku Strange
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 03:37:00 -
[327]
Signed
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Kitoba
Legion of Dynamic Discord
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 03:37:00 -
[328]
I fully support STFU and get back to work.
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Anton Marvik
AnTi. Atrocitas
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 04:30:00 -
[329]
Two more and we'll hit 100. \o/
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Illaria
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 04:39:00 -
[330]
Originally by: Anton Marvik Two more and we'll hit 100. \o/
Then better hurry up and make some more alts. ---- Darius Johnson, not MY CSM. |
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Anton Marvik
AnTi. Atrocitas
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 04:43:00 -
[331]
Originally by: Illaria
Originally by: Anton Marvik Two more and we'll hit 100. \o/
Then better hurry up and make some more alts.
I only have 97 alts.
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Rudy Giuliani
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 05:21:00 -
[332]
Showing support for this topic, Jade is an embarrassment.
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Canada eh
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 06:16:00 -
[333]
Edited by: Canada eh on 13/06/2008 06:17:01 Number 100 \0/
Seriously though, Jade needs to get a clue
Oh and page 12 snypa
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Flodarian
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 06:19:00 -
[334]
|
Momo chan
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 06:20:00 -
[335]
O ya
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MinerChick
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 06:21:00 -
[336]
I can get behind this
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Lady Starfire
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 06:22:00 -
[337]
This is democracy not a jadeocracy. |
Momochanchan
Hedion University
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 06:24:00 -
[338]
I like peaches. |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 06:29:00 -
[339]
Originally by: Jade Constantine Negative. Basically its part of our job to ignore nonsense posts. 200 supports on a nonsense issue are worth less than 1 support on a good issue. Sorry to disappoint you but threadnaughts simply mean nothing when you bring a little bit of good analysis to the table. Thats why no post like this will be advocated in good faith by a CSM delegate. A) it brings nothing to the game, and B) it would be embarrassing the CSM delegate to bring such a motion and have it voted down on the public record wasting time better alloted for decent issues.
I'll accept you throwing away obvious parody threads - if Monster Trucks got 10999 votes, it still shouldn't see the light of day. But this isn't an obvious parody, it's a serious request, and it's being taken seriously by most of the voters. But then, maybe my Gordon Brown analogy in the other thread was apt after all. The Treaty of Lisbon doesn't need a vote, after all - we've seen what can happen when voters get a chance to say "no" to their betters |
Dumah Tace
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 07:24:00 -
[340]
Yes. In on this.
|
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Kitoba
Legion of Dynamic Discord
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 08:11:00 -
[341]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Latest meeting of the CSM
You know, if it wasn't for you voting, in this very meeting, for the possibility of the council electing someone else instead of you I would consider seconding this motion. They don't seem to hate you enough to actually do it, though.
That log makes for some good lulz.
|
Grismar
The Establishment
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 08:21:00 -
[342]
If anything, this thread proves we -need- voting against a proposition. I'm sure Jade has quite a few supporters who are frustrated they can't outvote the Goons here.
Fly well and have fun, Grismar. |
fuze
InfoMorph Services Ltd
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 09:04:00 -
[343]
Originally by: Courthouse EDIT: ...and he didn't even do that. A quorum of 7 is not a quorum of 9 as the CSM document states is needed.
Didn't see Serenity either so guess that was a quorum of 6.
But that meeting went way smoother. So next step would be a smooth meeting with all 9 members.
And to the goons. Tone down and wait how things pan out for a few meetings since CSM actually might have taken the clue not to slip up again. |
Petter Sandstad
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 12:07:00 -
[344]
Supported, this is not the effective way to run a meeting.
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SunglassesInSpace
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 12:26:00 -
[345]
Chairperson is not an emperor.
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Ilvan
Post with your Brain
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 12:45:00 -
[346]
Can this self-important drama queen.
_______________________________ In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only lag |
Bethesda Vortarhiat
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 12:49:00 -
[347]
remove Jade!
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Courthouse
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 14:20:00 -
[348]
Originally by: fuze
Originally by: Courthouse EDIT: ...and he didn't even do that. A quorum of 7 is not a quorum of 9 as the CSM document states is needed.
Didn't see Serenity either so guess that was a quorum of 6.
But that meeting went way smoother. So next step would be a smooth meeting with all 9 members.
And to the goons. Tone down and wait how things pan out for a few meetings since CSM actually might have taken the clue not to slip up again.
Oh, so you didn't read the notes and decided to come post here.... That's fine, I went ahead and read the log for you. See, if you had read it you'd see that it called up an alternate for Serenity being absent, but it convienantly neglected to call on alternates for Bane or Darius.
So, a 9 member quorum, with 3 members absent and one alternate called in means we have a quorum of....
7.
|
fuze
InfoMorph Services Ltd
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 14:31:00 -
[349]
Goon teaching me math? Oh noes, the sky is falling!
I did read. Before my 1st cup of java that is. My bad. Please except my most humble apologies.
And you're right. The 2 representatives missing part could use some moar explanation.
Btw I still think goons should tone down a bit. Even though they don't like Jade its the voters who make it he deserves a decent chance of making this work. (And I sure am not one of them btw) |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 14:31:00 -
[350]
Originally by: Courthouse
Originally by: fuze
Originally by: Courthouse EDIT: ...and he didn't even do that. A quorum of 7 is not a quorum of 9 as the CSM document states is needed.
Didn't see Serenity either so guess that was a quorum of 6.
But that meeting went way smoother. So next step would be a smooth meeting with all 9 members.
And to the goons. Tone down and wait how things pan out for a few meetings since CSM actually might have taken the clue not to slip up again.
Oh, so you didn't read the notes and decided to come post here.... That's fine, I went ahead and read the log for you. See, if you had read it you'd see that it called up an alternate for Serenity being absent, but it convienantly neglected to call on alternates for Bane or Darius.
So, a 9 member quorum, with 3 members absent and one alternate called in means we have a quorum of....
7.
Yeah, except that the CSM document specifies that 7 is the quorum. They prefer 9, but 7 is sufficient. |
|
Jade Constantine
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 14:32:00 -
[351]
Originally by: Courthouse
Originally by: fuze
Originally by: Courthouse EDIT: ...and he didn't even do that. A quorum of 7 is not a quorum of 9 as the CSM document states is needed.
Didn't see Serenity either so guess that was a quorum of 6.
But that meeting went way smoother. So next step would be a smooth meeting with all 9 members.
And to the goons. Tone down and wait how things pan out for a few meetings since CSM actually might have taken the clue not to slip up again.
Oh, so you didn't read the notes and decided to come post here.... That's fine, I went ahead and read the log for you. See, if you had read it you'd see that it called up an alternate for Serenity being absent, but it convienantly neglected to call on alternates for Bane or Darius.
So, a 9 member quorum, with 3 members absent and one alternate called in means we have a quorum of....
7.
Fortunately we had a ruling from CCP! Yay.
Quote: a) Alternate attendance. Should a Representative be unavailable, either not showing up (with a prior notification or not), having to leave early or experiencing technical difficulties an Alternate is to step in. The council is to be manned by 9 people at all times û and 9 people should always vote; the exception being when all representatives and alternates have been contacted and a meeting of 7 people is the only attendance that can be mustered.
And since the meeting was publicized and everyone was invited, both from the public forum thread and the in-game channel. And we managed to get a combination of 6 reps and 1 alternate we had a valid meeting.
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fuze
InfoMorph Services Ltd
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 14:43:00 -
[352]
So the meeting of 7 euros was approved by CCP standards. But what about the 2 US ones? Will there be meetings of 7 all the time? I'm just asking since this might goons worked up a bit which I think isn't all too strange. Also could be some private stuff we don't have to know. Anywayz..... |
Jade Constantine
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 14:50:00 -
[353]
Originally by: fuze So the meeting of 7 euros was approved by CCP standards. But what about the 2 US ones? Will there be meetings of 7 all the time? I'm just asking since this might goons worked up a bit which I think isn't all too strange. Also could be some private stuff we don't have to know. Anywayz.....
On the whole I'll try to pick meeting times that the majority of CSM reps can commit to attending without too many problems. Weekends are probably the best for this. But its worth everyone calming down a bit and realizing that there are going to be ALOT of meetings in this session and its not disastrous if people miss couple here and there. Everyone goes on holiday and sometimes things come up. I'm certainly going to miss some and Serenity will be filling in as vice chair. Its very good that we can count meetings with 7 reps valid otherwise we would have some real problems in the long term.
There's nothing "private" about this - we had a deadline and needed to vote on some multi item issues otherwise they coudn't get on the iceland conference agenda.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Sigul Siento
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 14:54:00 -
[354]
Hear, hear.
|
Cathy Sakai
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 14:55:00 -
[355]
Hearing.
|
Darius JOHNSON
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 14:59:00 -
[356]
Originally by: fuze
But that meeting went way smoother. So next step would be a smooth meeting with all 9 members.
See: Meeting #2. This has already been accomplished. The ongoing drama were a direct result of actions taken, not of an inability for people to get along. |
Courthouse
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 15:05:00 -
[357]
Originally by: Jade Constantine On the whole I'll try to pick meeting times that the majority of CSM reps can commit to attending without too many problems. Weekends are probably the best for this. But its worth everyone calming down a bit and realizing that there are going to be ALOT of meetings in this session and its not disastrous if people miss couple here and there. Everyone goes on holiday and sometimes things come up. I'm certainly going to miss some and Serenity will be filling in as vice chair. Its very good that we can count meetings with 7 reps valid otherwise we would have some real problems in the long term.
There's nothing "private" about this - we had a deadline and needed to vote on some multi item issues otherwise they coudn't get on the iceland conference agenda.
Which obviously was both too important to have all members present for, and not important enough for you to extend any timezone courtesies to the US representatives who clearly would have been at work at the time. |
fuze
InfoMorph Services Ltd
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 16:04:00 -
[358]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON See: Meeting #2. This has already been accomplished. The ongoing drama were a direct result of actions taken, not of an inability for people to get along.
I beg to differ. Anyway I agree Jade was involved in several welp moments. But the way some others reacted wasn't top notch either. Guess what, people frack up sometimes.
For the sake of it lets assume Jade learned something useful. And I do hope the next meeting will include all members. You don't have to like or even trust each other. As long if you work through the agenda and do your work its OK. Just remember that there are many people watching over your shoulders. |
Darius JOHNSON
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 16:20:00 -
[359]
Originally by: fuze
I beg to differ. Anyway I agree Jade was involved in several welp moments. But the way some others reacted wasn't top notch either. Guess what, people frack up sometimes.
For the sake of it lets assume Jade learned something useful. And I do hope the next meeting will include all members. You don't have to like or even trust each other. As long if you work through the agenda and do your work its OK. Just remember that there are many people watching over your shoulders.
I don't disagree with that. People are people and screw up sometimes. Meeting #2 was well organized and expedient and 3 was a fiasco. From what I've read last night's meeting went back to the organized kind and I'll be happy to be a part of any meeting of the sort where people are able to speak their minds on the issues at hand and participate. |
Allaria Kriss
Elipse Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 18:26:00 -
[360]
Obligatory Jade-hate comment: This post now has twice the support of Jade's destructible outposts idea and his alliance-mate's 0.0 sovereignty redesign combined.
Real thoughts: Let's wait for the next meeting flip-out before passing judgment. As much as I may dislike Jade, everyone deserves at least one f-up. Now Jade knows what the voters expect him to act like, so if he screws up again, it's not for lack of knowing what we expect. THEN we can vote to get rid of him. |
|
Tiger Delivery
THE INTERNET.
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 18:36:00 -
[361]
Intolerable. |
asjdkajskdjak
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 18:39:00 -
[362]
Wow, I didn't expect this when I voted for Jade, he doesn't desrve a second chance, which, he clearly forfeited with the replies in this thread. He is a child that tries to ignore anything he doesn't like.
|
Atama Cardel
Even-Flow
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 18:44:00 -
[363]
Originally by: Grismar If anything, this thread proves we -need- voting against a proposition. I'm sure Jade has quite a few supporters who are frustrated they can't outvote the Goons here.
Fly well and have fun, Grismar.
If you would bother to read the thread you would see
A) It's not just goons that want to oust Jade B) There are far more people posting in support than there are posting against it anyway |
Moctobot
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 19:33:00 -
[364]
|
Alexi Kalashnikov
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 20:09:00 -
[365]
Hearing Jade say the chairman should step down and hold a vote among the council and then watching him retain the position after this was just too shifty in my opinion.
At the same time, we need to have the CSM actually tackling issues. It's obvious there is contention between Jade and members of the council therefore it would be due diligence to step down and hold a vote so that the valuable work the CSM can accomplish can be just that, accomplished. If Jade is re-elected, then 100%: go with it. If not, then hopefully the next chairman can hold the thing together.
|
Galston
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 20:24:00 -
[366]
It has become clear that Jade Constantine has no intention to use his position as chair to do anything other than further his self-delusions of grandeur.
I think the CSM is an important step in bringing player feedback to CCP and I don't want to see it ruined. Support |
Jita Johnny
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 20:26:00 -
[367]
no brainer here, since jade simply made up all these powers the chair has in order to steal control of the council |
Elenath
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 20:32:00 -
[368]
I won't say Jade should be removed, but I will admit that I am a little nervous about his being lead CSM after reading some valid posts regarding his past.
|
Cippalippus Primus
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 20:41:00 -
[369]
yup jade needs to go home |
Jackal79
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 20:50:00 -
[370]
Yeah, Jade needs to go. |
|
Darwin's Market
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 20:52:00 -
[371]
I have to agree with everyone else on this matter, even the talk in my NPC corp chat is one of shock and anger. This little Napoleon needs to have nothing to do with Eve. |
Sally Hemmings
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 20:52:00 -
[372]
|
Impretinent
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 21:19:00 -
[373]
I agree.
|
Machingo
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 21:24:00 -
[374]
Agreed.
|
Lazy Grunt
Federal Navy Academy
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 22:18:00 -
[375]
Supporting dis
|
Keiran Brie
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 23:10:00 -
[376]
|
Hori To
NorCorp Security eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 23:45:00 -
[377]
Jade is doing a good job, and so is the rest of the CSM judging by that last meeting, some confusion, friction etc was bound to happen in the start.
And if Jade gets removed by this thread, wouldn't that kinda, invalidate the election? Not too familiar with the finer workings of politics, but voting time is where the peons get to voice their opinion?
From the OP 1. Calls upon the CSM to undertake an immediate vote for the removal of Jade Constantine from Chair;
Can the CSM do that? |
Vadinho
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.14 00:18:00 -
[378]
Originally by: Rudy Giuliani Showing support for this topic, Jade is an embarrassment.
Hear, hear.
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Nynaeve Ares
Animus Incarnate
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Posted - 2008.06.14 00:22:00 -
[379]
Originally by: Hori To
And if Jade gets removed by this thread, wouldn't that kinda, invalidate the election? Not too familiar with the finer workings of politics, but voting time is where the peons get to voice their opinion?
People were voting for CSM representatives not CSM chair.
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JafoPBCFR
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Posted - 2008.06.14 00:27:00 -
[380]
Edited by: JafoPBCFR on 14/06/2008 00:34:55
Originally by: Hori To Jade is doing a good job, and so is the rest of the CSM judging by that last meeting, some confusion, friction etc was bound to happen in the start.
And if Jade gets removed by this thread, wouldn't that kinda, invalidate the election? Not too familiar with the finer workings of politics, but voting time is where the peons get to voice their opinion?
From the OP 1. Calls upon the CSM to undertake an immediate vote for the removal of Jade Constantine from Chair;
Can the CSM do that?
How would it invalidate the Election? Op is asking for a Vote to remove him from the chair. And WE the Constituants agree or disagree. Not asking for a removal from the CSM.
It boils down to this. He muted and in doing so denied a CSM to vote. intentional or stupidity of how the channel moderation worked He still did it.
The CSM in question had asked jade not to editorialize (SP) and was told they were being disruptive. sort of a how dare you deny my autority to do as i plse.
When a CSM asked why they were being warned rather then explain how it was a disruption. And Muted when the call from the floor was made to explain the disruption. Again the HOW DARE YOU question my authority.
had he comein said yes i was wrong and i shall conduct myself in a more professional manner and applogized to the CSM. this would have blown over.
Alas he didnt and has let this blow way way beyond repair. On top of all that he insults his constituancy even more by calling them nonfactors as they are all goons and goonswarm.
Which many infact are not. Myself included.
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Ergo Ghost
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.06.14 00:41:00 -
[381]
Jade: Even if everyone agreed with you 100% on the issues, you'd still be a bad chair because you're trying to give the chair too much power. Imagine someone really horrible becomes your successor. A democratic council of equals would thwart their attempted reign of terror. This borderline dictatorship you're setting up, where the chair chooses who can speak & what issues may be raised, is only going to enable it. Your continued power grabs show either that you completely lack foresight or that you're purposely trying to harm the CSM's long term viability. Whichever it is, you shouldn't be chair.
Also I'm surprised so many goons have signed this thread, given that with their numbers they're the most likely to be able to win the chair in the next elections & benefit from all of the extraordinary powers Jade's trying to give the position. Are you guys just too ADD to wait 6 months or are you all secretly gigantic fans of democracy & supporters of the little guy?
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John Son
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Posted - 2008.06.14 01:00:00 -
[382]
Edited by: John Son on 14/06/2008 01:00:25 In a normal parliamentary body, the chair is generally a non-voting position. The CSM was set up with more of a chair-lite where the chairperson's sole additional responsibility over a normal representative is to draw up the agenda for meetings, but still retains voting rights. Jade's blatant disregard for this original intention is reason enough to request removal.
Supported.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.06.14 01:18:00 -
[383]
Originally by: Hori To Jade is doing a good job, and so is the rest of the CSM judging by that last meeting, some confusion, friction etc was bound to happen in the start.
And if Jade gets removed by this thread, wouldn't that kinda, invalidate the election? Not too familiar with the finer workings of politics, but voting time is where the peons get to voice their opinion?
From the OP 1. Calls upon the CSM to undertake an immediate vote for the removal of Jade Constantine from Chair;
Can the CSM do that?
Simple answer is no.
I've said a couple of times in the course of this thread. Only way this could conceivably happen is:
1. A CSM rep decides to support and advocate this issue after its been in discussion for 7 days.
2. CSM rep puts it on the agenda for a meeting.
3. During the meeting it needs a 5/9 (4/7) votes to pass and become an ISSUE for the formal conference between CSM/CCP.
4. Supporting CSM would write it up as a submission document and we'd discuss the measure with the CCP council.
5. What happens then nobody really knows because we have no idea if CCP are happy to have the choice of the electorate overturned by a motion supported by a tiny fraction of the votes cast in the main election.
But its all a little academic since this thread hasn't received the 5% of the electorate vote required to force it onto the CSM meeting agenda, and it hasn't been supported and advocated by a CSM rep.
At the moment its like a protest thing from angry goons really thats becoming a bit pointless because literally everyone else has already gotten over it and moved on through a very productive meeting in mid-week and expectation of another one on sunday.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
onymous
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.14 01:24:00 -
[384]
absolutely. |
Jade Constantine
|
Posted - 2008.06.14 01:24:00 -
[385]
Originally by: Ergo Ghost Also I'm surprised so many goons have signed this thread, given that with their numbers they're the most likely to be able to win the chair in the next elections & benefit from all of the extraordinary powers Jade's trying to give the position. Are you guys just too ADD to wait 6 months or are you all secretly gigantic fans of democracy & supporters of the little guy?
I suspect we'll end up deciding to go for a rotating chair or even ask ccp to supply us with a ccp-provided non voting chair to do the admin to be honest. There is no advantage to having an empowered Chair in any way. This whole argument was about the definition of "moderation" and got compounded by a desire to finish completing issues in a time crunch.
Remove the time pressure and moderation stops being an issue because if meetings fail to get *absolutely everything* done - it won't matter so much.
Anyway contrary to the fears of the goons on this thread I'm really pretty relaxed about the role of chair in this csm progress. I'm happy to see it rotating, see moderation and admin duties shared, or whatever else can be agreed on.
Single best idea ANYONE has come up with in the last week was Saphrine who suggested putting the admin stuff at the end of the agenda not the begin. That solves so many problems its silly we didn't think of it in the first place!
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
atrabilious
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Posted - 2008.06.14 01:26:00 -
[386]
+1. It needs to be replaced. |
myrmecophilous
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Posted - 2008.06.14 01:28:00 -
[387]
/signed. |
Pelendava
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Posted - 2008.06.14 01:48:00 -
[388]
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Double Magpie
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.14 02:05:00 -
[389]
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Lucias Trask
Shadows of the Dead R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.06.14 02:16:00 -
[390]
You suck, get a life,l gtfo [PANIC] |
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Tabouli
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.14 02:22:00 -
[391]
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Atama Cardel
Even-Flow
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Posted - 2008.06.14 02:29:00 -
[392]
Jade, just out of curiosity, whatever happened to you stepping down from chair and letting the CSM vote someone in, like you said you would do at the very start?
And don't try to feign ignorance when you "accidentally" miss this post like you are bound to do
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Talen Rass
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Posted - 2008.06.14 03:00:00 -
[393]
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Kitoba
Legion of Dynamic Discord
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Posted - 2008.06.14 03:16:00 -
[394]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Hori To
From the OP 1. Calls upon the CSM to undertake an immediate vote for the removal of Jade Constantine from Chair;
Can the CSM do that?
Simple answer is no.
I've said a couple of times in the course of this thread. Only way this could conceivably happen is:
1. A CSM rep decides to support and advocate this issue after its been in discussion for 7 days.
2. CSM rep puts it on the agenda for a meeting.
3. During the meeting it needs a 5/9 (4/7) votes to pass and become an ISSUE for the formal conference between CSM/CCP.
4. Supporting CSM would write it up as a submission document and we'd discuss the measure with the CCP council.
5. What happens then nobody really knows because we have no idea if CCP are happy to have the choice of the electorate overturned by a motion supported by a tiny fraction of the votes cast in the main election.
But its all a little academic since this thread hasn't received the 5% of the electorate vote required to force it onto the CSM meeting agenda, and it hasn't been supported and advocated by a CSM rep.
At the moment its like a protest thing from angry goons really thats becoming a bit pointless because literally everyone else has already gotten over it and moved on through a very productive meeting in mid-week and expectation of another one on sunday.
Sorry to have to say this (that was a flat lie), but you're either dead wrong, or deploying a smoke screen. Quoting:
"By default, the Representative with the highest vote tally is awarded with the responsibilities of Chairman for the CSM."
Notice the "default". That means that the representative with the most votes is chairman if, and only if, the chairman isn't selected in a different way. That's what it says. Not more, and not less. Practically, that means that a motion of no confidence against you is useless, as you'd still be chairman. A vote of confidence for another member does make sense, though. In fact, I'm wondering why it didn't already happen, considering all that mud throwing around here.
Thank you all for informing yourselves before posting. I'm proud of you. Don't interpret things into the space between the lines, you'll miss your freedom.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.06.14 03:20:00 -
[395]
Originally by: Kitoba In fact, I'm wondering why it didn't already happen, considering all that mud throwing around here.
The reason it didn't happen the same reason Darius and Bane are running the goonswarm rather than being plebs inside goonswarm. They are smart enough to see that wasting the CSM's time with stupid little power plays will reflect badly on them.
At the end of the day our reputations as CSM reps depend on getting the job done and promoting issues to the attention of ccp.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.14 03:23:00 -
[396]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Kitoba In fact, I'm wondering why it didn't already happen, considering all that mud throwing around here.
The reason it didn't happen the same reason Darius and Bane are running the goonswarm rather than being plebs inside goonswarm. They are smart enough to see that wasting the CSM's time with stupid little power plays will reflect badly on them.
At the end of the day our reputations as CSM reps depend on getting the job done and promoting issues to the attention of ccp.
Says the idiot who started all the ******** power play crap just get out.
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Parid
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2008.06.14 03:29:00 -
[397]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
The reason it didn't happen the same reason Darius and Bane are running the goonswarm rather than being plebs inside goonswarm. They are smart enough to see that wasting the CSM's time with stupid little power plays will reflect badly on them.
At the end of the day our reputations as CSM reps depend on getting the job done and promoting issues to the attention of ccp.
Bane is a pleb. FYI
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Kitoba
Legion of Dynamic Discord
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Posted - 2008.06.14 03:29:00 -
[398]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Kitoba In fact, I'm wondering why it didn't already happen, considering all that mud throwing around here.
The reason it didn't happen the same reason Darius and Bane are running the goonswarm rather than being plebs inside goonswarm. They are smart enough to see that wasting the CSM's time with stupid little power plays will reflect badly on them.
At the end of the day our reputations as CSM reps depend on getting the job done and promoting issues to the attention of ccp.
I am deeply moved by your expression of respect for your fellow council members and your ability to distract from topics. I can't see how the election of a chairman could possibly distract the council more than this very debate.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.06.14 03:30:00 -
[399]
Originally by: Aprudena Gist
Says the idiot who started all the ******** power play crap just get out.
You sound a little bit stressed. Maybe have a cup of tea and play some internet spaceships rather than student politics?
Seriously its not the end of the world that you don't get your way on this. Pace yourself, maybe I'll get indicted by the international war crimes tribunal for internet posting or perhaps you could open a class action suit and try to have me deported to texas or something?
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Jade Constantine
|
Posted - 2008.06.14 03:32:00 -
[400]
Originally by: Kitoba I can't see how the election of a chairman could possibly distract the council more than this very debate.
This isn't a debate its a threadnaught.
(and a little light entertainment)
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
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Waterfowl Democracy
The Ministry of Indigenous Affairs GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.14 03:52:00 -
[401]
Originally by: Jade Constantine This isn't a debate its a threadnaught.
(and a little light entertainment)
Actually this thread isn't a threadnaught. It's a thread with the sole purpose of removing someone so obviously unsuitable from their position. It's what the Assembly Hall was designed for, showing support for issues that concern the players of this game.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.06.14 04:00:00 -
[402]
Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy It's what the Assembly Hall was designed for, showing support for issues that concern the players of this game.
Well technically its designed for showing support for Issues that concern ALL players of the game.
Whereas this is a petty little vendetta that only concerns bitter little fruits and their alts and cheerleaders. So far this thread has less support than Goum got in the election. Its not exactly a sterling triumphant beginning for your crusade and its actually alienated more people than its convinced.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Gorfob
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.14 04:04:00 -
[403]
Edited by: Gorfob on 14/06/2008 04:05:20
Originally by: Jade Constantine 66 :words:
If you pulled your thumb our of your arse for a few seconds, you would realise that there are more than a few non goons telling you that you are a raging idiot and to get out.
EDIT: Word count.
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Kuzya Morozov
L8L8L8
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Posted - 2008.06.14 04:07:00 -
[404]
Yep, and all his replies in this thread are pretty childish, he's made it clear he should be off CSM, as soon as possible.
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Anthony Pants
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Posted - 2008.06.14 04:09:00 -
[405]
Edited by: Anthony Pants on 14/06/2008 04:09:36
Originally by: Jade Constantine The reason it didn't happen the same reason Darius and Bane are running the goonswarm rather than being plebs inside goonswarm. They are smart enough to see that wasting the CSM's time with stupid little power plays will reflect badly on them.
You're assuming that Bane and Darius have rallied GoonSwarm to tell you that you're wrong? You have no idea how we work. Besides, have you seen RA or TCF or any of our major allies appear in these threads? Hell, I've hardly seen BoB in here. They don't seem to care, and it's no business of ours to pressure anyone else into voting. We like to call it "democracy", but that word has a different meaning when you use it.
Originally by: Jade Constantine Well technically its designed for showing support for Issues that concern ALL players of the game.
Guess what? This includes goons. Stop acting like it doesn't. |
Kitoba
Legion of Dynamic Discord
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Posted - 2008.06.14 04:19:00 -
[406]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
This isn't a debate its a threadnaught.
(and a little light entertainment)
If you prefer to call it such, I'll go with you:
I can't see how the election of a chairman could possibly distract the council more than this very threadnaught.
In what way did I change the meaning? I think you've proven my point.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.06.14 04:30:00 -
[407]
Originally by: Kitoba I can't see how the election of a chairman could possibly distract the council more than this very threadnaught. In what way did I change the meaning? I think you've proven my point.
Distract who? I've done all my template writing up for the weekend - meeting agenda set, documents submitted to iceland etc etc. This thread is just another goon threadnaught - why should anybody care?
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Darius JOHNSON
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Posted - 2008.06.14 04:36:00 -
[408]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
The reason it didn't happen the same reason Darius and Bane are running the goonswarm rather than being plebs inside goonswarm. They are smart enough to see that wasting the CSM's time with stupid little power plays will reflect badly on them.
Actually the chair rejected my motion then changed its tune and started behaving more like a council member and less like a dictator. You keep using terms like "power plays" and "political points". I have nothing to gain from either.
Originally by: Jade Constantine You might be a big man on the internets Darius but prepare to be laughed at quite a lot in Europe.
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Kitoba
Legion of Dynamic Discord
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Posted - 2008.06.14 04:39:00 -
[409]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Distract who? I've done all my template writing up for the weekend - meeting agenda set, documents submitted to iceland etc etc. This thread is just another goon threadnaught - why should anybody care?
Indeed, why do you? I guess the rest cares about why you care.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.06.14 04:43:00 -
[410]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Actually the chair rejected my motion then changed its tune and started behaving more like a council member and less like a dictator. You keep using terms like "power plays" and "political points". I have nothing to gain from either.
If you want the motion Darius I told you all you had to do was support this thread and add it to the agenda as an Issue. Its pretty simple.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
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Darius JOHNSON
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Posted - 2008.06.14 04:47:00 -
[411]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Actually the chair rejected my motion then changed its tune and started behaving more like a council member and less like a dictator. You keep using terms like "power plays" and "political points". I have nothing to gain from either.
If you want the motion Darius I told you all you had to do was support this thread and add it to the agenda as an Issue. Its pretty simple.
I bolded the important part for you.
Originally by: Jade Constantine You might be a big man on the internets Darius but prepare to be laughed at quite a lot in Europe.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.06.14 04:49:00 -
[412]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 14/06/2008 04:53:31
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Actually the chair rejected my motion
Quote: I told you all you had to do was support this thread and add it to the agenda as an Issue
Bolded AND underlined the important bits for you Darius.
Don't try and claim you were prevented from raising this if you had wanted to.
And do cut the "it" stuff out. It makes you look like a petulant child.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Darius JOHNSON
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Posted - 2008.06.14 04:56:00 -
[413]
Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 14/06/2008 04:59:07 Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 14/06/2008 04:58:19 Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 14/06/2008 04:57:20
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Bolded AND underlined the important bits for you Darius.
Don't try and claim you were prevented from raising this if you had wanted to.
Ok, I gave you the out and tried to act civilized about the matter. The fact is that you refused any motion that limited what you stated was your authority. You were then given a set of suggestions from CCP (You've already stated this in various threads. Another issue I was not trying to bring up)(After ignoring the very same suggestions from your fellow council members)and have followed them. Provided you're not being a **** I have no problem with you sitting as chair. Had you not changed your tone and changed your course from authoritarian to team member I would indeed be supporting this thread, which would be fairly irrelevant for the most part as all that this issue accomplishes is the creation of a conversation in Iceland. Is that clear enough for you now or shall I go on?
Of course I've already said this in various places, but you have a love for making me repeat myself.
:edit: "it" was referring to "the chair" as an object not a person. Calm down. You look like someone trying to play the martyr.
Originally by: Jade Constantine You might be a big man on the internets Darius but prepare to be laughed at quite a lot in Europe.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.06.14 05:04:00 -
[414]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Ok, I gave you the out and tried to act civilized about the matter. The fact is that you refused any motion that limited what you stated was your authority.
Incorrect. I told you needed to compose an issue thread or support an existing issue thread to raise the point and it would be voted on as a discussion topic alongside all the rest.
Thats what I had to do with the "electable chair" issue. Thats what you would need to do with your issue.
I really don't understand why you are still spoiling for a fight on this Darius. We have come to a decent conclusion already as far as I understood. We had a very good meeting in the week and everyone has worked hard to meet our deadline.
I can only assume you feel obliged to play some macho goon patriarch role here and I have to tell you it doesn't impress me in the least. Grow up and get on with the job we were elected to do. Stop posturing and acting like an ass.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Darius JOHNSON
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Posted - 2008.06.14 05:04:00 -
[415]
I'd like to add in addition to that that simply because I see no need to support this particular action at this juncture that does not mean people cannot voice their opinions or concerns on the subject. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and beliefs. Even when they run counter to your own.
Originally by: Jade Constantine You might be a big man on the internets Darius but prepare to be laughed at quite a lot in Europe.
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Anthony Pants
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Posted - 2008.06.14 05:07:00 -
[416]
"You don't get everything you want. A dictatorship would be a lot easier." "There ought to be limits to freedom." "I want everybody to hear loud and clear that I'm going to be the president of everybody." "Where things have gone wrong have been where I've made the mistake of allowing a little too much democracy and allowed them to impact the constitution itself."
One of these is from Jade Constantine, though I could understand how someone would attribute them all to the same person. |
Darius JOHNSON
|
Posted - 2008.06.14 05:07:00 -
[417]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
Incorrect. I told you needed to compose an issue thread or support an existing issue thread to raise the point and it would be voted on as a discussion topic alongside all the rest.
Thats what I had to do with the "electable chair" issue. Thats what you would need to do with your issue.
I really don't understand why you are still spoiling for a fight on this Darius. We have come to a decent conclusion already as far as I understood. We had a very good meeting in the week and everyone has worked hard to meet our deadline.
I can only assume you feel obliged to play some macho goon patriarch role here and I have to tell you it doesn't impress me in the least. Grow up and get on with the job we were elected to do. Stop posturing and acting like an ass.
Who's spoiling for a fight? I was playing MGS4 and hauling minerals. You mentioned my name and responded. You were acting out of line, vetoed a perfectly valid vote because it didn't suit you, then proceeded to deny my two motions. Those motions were indeed denied by you. You did state that it should be raised as an issue and I didn't say that you did not.
I really don't care to impress you. Your opinion of me is entirely irrelevant to me. If you want me to not respond to you do not associate me by name in your opinion posts.
Originally by: Jade Constantine You might be a big man on the internets Darius but prepare to be laughed at quite a lot in Europe.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.06.14 05:08:00 -
[418]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 14/06/2008 05:14:06 Edited by: Jade Constantine on 14/06/2008 05:10:32
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON I'd like to add in addition to that that simply because I see no need to support this particular action at this juncture that does not mean people cannot voice their opinions or concerns on the subject. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and beliefs. Even when they run counter to your own.
I was just correcting your false statement Darius. You claimed I blocked your motion. I simply told you how to do it properly within the agreed procedure for raising issues.
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON ... deny my two motions. Those motions were indeed denied by you. You did state that it should be raised as an issue and I didn't say that you did not.
I think the problem here Darius is you what you're describing that I "blocked" or "denied" you when what I actually did is tell you how it could be done properly within the rules of the CSM process. I know its frustrating you can't get exactly what you want when you want it but we do have some rules for the submission of issues that the rest of us have to follow.
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON I really don't care to impress you. Your opinion of me is entirely irrelevant to me. If you want me to not respond to you do not associate me by name in your opinion posts.
I don't care if you respond or not Darius - thats up to you. But if you come and post an untrue statement I'll feel free to correct you on it.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Darius JOHNSON
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Posted - 2008.06.14 05:12:00 -
[419]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
I was just correcting your false statement Darius. You claimed I blocked your motion. I simply told you how to do it properly within the agreed procedure for raising issues.
Correction: You stated your interpretation of how to do it properly within your personal opinion on what the agreed procedure for raising issues was. The fact is that a procedure to remove the chair wasn't documented. Nor was the ability for the chair to veto votes and mute dissenting opinions in the council. We can run around in circles playing games with interpretations all night. I'd moved on.
Originally by: Jade Constantine You might be a big man on the internets Darius but prepare to be laughed at quite a lot in Europe.
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Vanessa Vale
|
Posted - 2008.06.14 05:13:00 -
[420]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Whereas this is a petty little vendetta that only concerns bitter little fruits and their alts and cheerleaders. So far this thread has less support than Goum got in the election.
Someone with good writing skills should send a little article about the last meeting plus this thread to a few select gaming oriented sites.
See how this "petty" thing goes on. You are a bloody disgrace.
Minmatar Boost Brigade |
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Kitoba
Legion of Dynamic Discord
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Posted - 2008.06.14 05:16:00 -
[421]
Originally by: Jade Constantine We had a very good meeting in the week and everyone has worked hard to meet our deadline.
Btw: Wasn't there a meeting after the 06-08 one? Where's the transcript? I don't want to miss the lulz.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.06.14 05:18:00 -
[422]
Originally by: Vanessa Vale Someone with good writing skills should send a little article about the last meeting plus this thread to a few select gaming oriented sites. See how this "petty" thing goes on. You are a bloody disgrace.
What aren't you understanding here? Darius and I hate each others guts. He has no respect for my experience in this game, I have no respect for his. You should count yourself lucky we're even talking. Seriously, I'm happy to interact within the parameters we've been set by CCP but if Darius tries coming on with this rubbish in public I'm going to challenge him on it - every time.
I wasn't elected to roll over for the goons. Get used to it.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Darius JOHNSON
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Posted - 2008.06.14 05:20:00 -
[423]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
What aren't you understanding here? Darius and I hate each others guts. He has no respect for my experience in this game, I have no respect for his. You should count yourself lucky we're even talking. Seriously, I'm happy to interact within the parameters we've been set by CCP but if Darius tries coming on with this rubbish in public I'm going to challenge him on it - every time.
I wasn't elected to roll over for the goons. Get used to it.
I posted here in response to your post here mentioning me by name. It's right here in this thread. You can try and reframe it like I was simply prancing around in this thread "coming on with this rubbish in public" but the fact of the matter is I had moved on and was playing videogames. I already said that too though. Do you even read what anyone else writes?
Originally by: Jade Constantine You might be a big man on the internets Darius but prepare to be laughed at quite a lot in Europe.
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Kitoba
Legion of Dynamic Discord
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Posted - 2008.06.14 05:24:00 -
[424]
Originally by: Jade Constantine Darius and I hate each others guts. He has no respect for my experience in this game, I have no respect for his.
Please use that in your next electoral campaign. It surely will get you elected.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.06.14 05:25:00 -
[425]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 14/06/2008 05:26:00
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
I posted here in response to your post here mentioning me by name. It's right here in this thread.
Yep thats right I had stated that you were too smart to be seen wasting everyone's time with a crappy motion like this. I'm happy to take it back. Obviously you aren't that smart after all. If you had "moved on" then why provoke this argument by claiming I blocked your motions when what I actually did was explain to you the process of how the Issues had to be raised?
Seriously Darius. You need to chill and bow out of this stupid thread. Its not helping your good judgment to be forced to perform for the goon chorus.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Kitoba
Legion of Dynamic Discord
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Posted - 2008.06.14 05:29:00 -
[426]
Edited by: Kitoba on 14/06/2008 05:30:15
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Yep thats right I had stated that you were too smart to be seen wasting everyone's time with a crappy motion like this.
You fail in clarity: Did you mean to write "Darius is a moron if he supports this motion", by any chance?
Edit: English should be used idiomatically for all I know.
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Darius JOHNSON
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Posted - 2008.06.14 05:31:00 -
[427]
Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 14/06/2008 05:32:45
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Yep thats right I had stated that you were too smart to be seen wasting everyone's time with a crappy motion like this. I'm happy to take it back. Obviously you aren't that smart after all. If you had "moved on" then why provoke this argument by claiming I blocked your motions when what I actually did was explain to you the process of how the Issues had to be raised?
Seriously Darius. You need to chill and bow out of this stupid thread. Its not helping your good judgment to be forced to perform for the goon chorus.
Take it back v0v I honestly don't care. You did block my motions. Interpreting the validity of motions wasn't any more in your purview than vetoing votes. If you want me to not respond to you then don't editorialize what I say. I'd be happy to post the emails to allow them to speak for themselves but I fear you would take umbrage with that and the vote to do so has not yet been had. How I can "provoke" an argument by clarifying what YOU STATED was MY position is beyond me. I think I'm certainly capable of speaking for myself. I certainly didn't nominate you as my spokesperson.
While I appreciate your concern about my judgement it's neither asked for nor necessary.
Originally by: Jade Constantine You might be a big man on the internets Darius but prepare to be laughed at quite a lot in Europe.
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Tress Macneille
Eight year old girls GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.14 05:32:00 -
[428]
Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 14/06/2008 05:26:00
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
I posted here in response to your post here mentioning me by name. It's right here in this thread.
Yep thats right I had stated that you were too smart to be seen wasting everyone's time with a crappy motion like this. I'm happy to take it back. Obviously you aren't that smart after all. If you had "moved on" then why provoke this argument by claiming I blocked your motions when what I actually did was explain to you the process of how the Issues had to be raised?
Seriously Darius. You need to chill and bow out of this stupid thread. Its not helping your good judgment to be forced to perform for the goon chorus.
ITT Jade Constantine calls somebody out for wasting time, not knowing when he's dug himself into an in-escapable hole, and making stupid threads.
CATS AND DOGS ARE LIVING TOGETHER, BRIMSTONE IS RAINING FROM THE SKY
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Tress Macneille
Eight year old girls GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.14 05:34:00 -
[429]
Also Jade isn't most of your experience in eve composed of writing awful fan fiction while docked in high sec wishing there was somway to wall of text cva out of existence.
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Tress Macneille
Eight year old girls GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.14 05:36:00 -
[430]
I mean remember that f13 thread where you were out argued so seriously on the topic of eve by a guy half your age who has never actually played eve that you threw a temper tantrum and edited away all of your posts?
Not the most sterling resume
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.06.14 05:39:00 -
[431]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON You did block my motions. Interpreting the validity of motions wasn't any more in your purview than vetoing votes.
No interpretation of validity was done. I told you to post an issue discussion thread or support an existing one and go through the motions for raising an issue. Dunno how to make this any clearer for you.
Quote: If you want me to not respond to you then don't editorialize what I say.
I don't care if you respond or not. Its your choice at the end of the day.
Quote: I'd be happy to post the emails to allow them to speak for themselves but I fear you would take umbrage with that and the vote to do so has not yet been had.
Yeah but posting those emails would involve you breaking the terms of service you agreed wouldn't they - little bit inconvenient there. Maybe you might consider not provoking public arguments every single day over every single issue we've ever talked about? How about that for an idea?
Quote: How I can "provoke" and argument by clarifying what YOU STATED was MY position is beyond me.
You didn't clarify Darius you lied. You said I blocked your motions when what I actually did is told you how you should make them within the same rules we are all bound by.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Darius JOHNSON
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Posted - 2008.06.14 05:49:00 -
[432]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON You did block my motions. Interpreting the validity of motions wasn't any more in your purview than vetoing votes.
No interpretation of validity was done. I told you to post an issue discussion thread or support an existing one and go through the motions for raising an issue. Dunno how to make this any clearer for you.
Quote: If you want me to not respond to you then don't editorialize what I say.
I don't care if you respond or not. Its your choice at the end of the day.
Quote: I'd be happy to post the emails to allow them to speak for themselves but I fear you would take umbrage with that and the vote to do so has not yet been had.
Yeah but posting those emails would involve you breaking the terms of service you agreed wouldn't they - little bit inconvenient there. Maybe you might consider not provoking public arguments every single day over every single issue we've ever talked about? How about that for an idea?
Quote: How I can "provoke" and argument by clarifying what YOU STATED was MY position is beyond me.
You didn't clarify Darius you lied. You said I blocked your motions when what I actually did is told you how you should make them within the same rules we are all bound by.
Ok, let's say this again...
Up until my motion to limit the scope of your moderation to prevent you from disenfranchising elected representatives at whim, like you did last Sunday, we had discussed NUMEROUS administrative items. We had even had a vote on one. Immediately after the motion was presented you unilaterally decided for the rest of us that we would no longer be discussing administrative issues. I was told we could not discuss that motion because of your decision and it would have to be raised as an issue. This would have meant you could have continued your wreckless vetoing and muting until CCP made a decision in Iceland. Thus the problem I had. Change it to not blocking a motion if that makes you feel better in Jadeworld. The facts are the facts and they're right there plain as day.
Again with the "provoke" word. You were acting as my spokesperson on as issue. I posted clarifying my stance for myself. That does not make me a provocateur. You do not speak for me in any way.
Being coy about your "explanation" to save face is pretty silly. The simple fact is as I stated above. Prior to my raising the motion we were able to discuss administrative issues. The second one was raised that challenged you, you decided unilaterally that we were not discussing such things anymore. That's the chain of events. It's not a lie. You decided you had the authority to change the game midstream. Perhaps that long and wordy explanation will sit better with you than "blocked". Those were not "rules we were all bound by". Just the day before we had all operated under a different premise. YOU decided that YOU didn't like that. Immediately thereafter you unilaterally vetoed the vote that you didn't like from the day before, declaring it void. Also not a rule we are all bound by.
Originally by: Jade Constantine You might be a big man on the internets Darius but prepare to be laughed at quite a lot in Europe.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.06.14 06:04:00 -
[433]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
Up until my motion to limit the scope of your moderation to prevent you from disenfranchising elected representatives at whim, like you did last Sunday, we had discussed NUMEROUS administrative items. We had even had a vote on one. Immediately after the motion was presented you unilaterally decided for the rest of us that we would no longer be discussing administrative issues.
I think most of us emailed CCP asking for intervention actually. I said I wouldn't be countenancing any more "administrative" votes until we heard back and got some guidance. The sole significant administrative issue we'd discussed thus far was the alternates thing. If saying "no more of this crap until we hear from ccp" is considered by you to be a bad thing then we'll agree to differ.
Quote: I was told we could not discuss that motion because of your decision and it would have to be raised as an issue. This would have meant you could have continued your wreckless vetoing and muting until CCP made a decision in Iceland.
Well like I said, lots of us had apparently asked for guidance from ccp and waiting till that guidance was given seemed like a good idea to me. Spin it how you will Darius, you wanted to move into the offensive with admin motions to change the balance of the council without a 7 day discussion, without submission templates and without face to face time in Iceland.
Again I'll cite the example of the Issue I brought up to impact the council dynamics "electable chair" and I went through the approved methods and got it heard for 7 days and then voted on the CSM. What made you think you didn't have to meet the same standards of approval?
Quote: Thus the problem I had. Change it to not blocking a motion if that makes you feel better in Jadeworld. The facts are the facts and they're right there plain as day.
How about we simply tell the truth rather than listening to Darius Johnson trying to wriggle his way out of lying in public.
Quote: You decided you had the authority to change the game midstream. Perhaps that long and wordy explanation will sit better with you than "blocked".
I held your motions that would impact the balance of the council to the same standards that mine had met. If you call that changing the rules you really are deluded. You made an allegation that I had blocked your motions - that allegation was false. I did tell you how to raise them properly.
Quote: Those were not "rules we were all bound by". Just the day before we had all operated under a different premise.
Absolutely not. Again I cite the "electable chair" motion and its passage through the CSM process. Your motion of "no confidence in the chair" should have to follow exactly the same checks and balances and be heard in exactly the same manner.
Quote: YOU decided that YOU didn't like that. Immediately thereafter you unilaterally vetoed the vote that you didn't like from the day before, declaring it void. Also not a rule we are all bound by.
I said it was void pending an inquiry to CCP. We made the inquiry, to got the information, matter was resolved.
Really you are flapping around like a fish on dry land here Darius and making a scene for absolutely no good purpose. Give it up.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Darius JOHNSON
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Posted - 2008.06.14 06:24:00 -
[434]
Originally by: Jade Constantine :words:
I'm not going to play the ladder quote game with you that gets tedious and I lack your flare for the boring.
The fact of the matter is that your decision to not hold any more administrative votes did not occur until my motion had been raised. Could that be a coincidence? Certainly could. That does not change the fact that I raised the issue the same way the use of alternates issue was raised (the one you decided you could veto after a perfectly legitimate vote) and you ruled it "out of order" prior to there ever being any understanding that this was even a possibility. I never said you didn't allow for me to raise it as an issue here. I never lied. You can say I lied until you're blue in the face, but the facts are on the table and you stomping your feet and saying so in your typical juvenile fashion does not make it a fact.
You told me no to something for which no other mechanism had been established and my choice of words was "blocked". What you did, did indeed have the effect of blocking the motion. You can claim nuance or want some fancier wording or explanation around it if you like but there's no lie there. The motion was not allowed to carry through along the same lines similar motions had before. That is not a lie. That is not spin. It's simply what happened. Your "telling me how to raise them properly" did not meet the previous standard which was actually bringing the item to a vote.
What made me think I didn't need to meet the 7 day standard? The fact that until it impacted you that "standard" didn't exist.
LOOK AT JADE TRYING TO WIGGLE HIS WAY OUT OF HIS CIRCULAR ARGUMENT FLOP FLOP FLOP FLOP
Did I do that right? I can sling names with you all night long. Call you a liar. Say what you're saying is stupid. I can selectively ignore what is inconvenient to me. I didn't see a need to do that at this juncture. But I'm the juvenile. I'm the one spinning. Somehow Jade is always right and without fault. Whether you realize it or not you're fairly transparent and one of a very few people who buys your own bull****.
Originally by: Jade Constantine You might be a big man on the internets Darius but prepare to be laughed at quite a lot in Europe.
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Kitoba
Legion of Dynamic Discord
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Posted - 2008.06.14 06:30:00 -
[435]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Whether you realize it or not you're fairly transparent and one of a very few people who buys your own bull****.
Please, don't say such things. You could destroy his self-esteem. It's more fun with him not realising.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.06.14 06:33:00 -
[436]
I'll leave you to your alliance of yes-men Darius. When you get to the point of simply casting insults its fairly clear you don't have an answer. Was a pointless argument as they always are with you.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Darius JOHNSON
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Posted - 2008.06.14 06:47:00 -
[437]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
I'll leave you to your alliance of yes-men Darius. When you get to the point of simply casting insults its fairly clear you don't have an answer. Was a pointless argument as they always are with you.
Quoting the first insult in this discussion:
Originally by: Jade Constantine you aren't that smart after all
Quoting the "non-insulting" inflammatory dance that followed:
Originally by: Jade Constantine How about we simply tell the truth rather than listening to Darius Johnson trying to wriggle his way out of lying in public.
Originally by: Jade Constantine Really you are flapping around like a fish on dry land here Darius and making a scene for absolutely no good purpose. Give it up.
If answering repeatedly the same arguments you make is not having an answer then I guess nobody has one. It's you Jade. You have the ONLY answers and everyone else is wrong. Why did I even bother having an opinion when I could have just asked you what it should be?
If you don't want people to insult you don't throw the first stone. Don't pretend to speak for me. Don't reinterpret and editorialize my words and I won't have to respond. If I did that to you I'd expect a response. I wouldn't feign shock when it occurred.
Originally by: Jade Constantine You might be a big man on the internets Darius but prepare to be laughed at quite a lot in Europe.
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Waterfowl Democracy
The Ministry of Indigenous Affairs GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.14 06:54:00 -
[438]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Well technically its designed for showing support for Issues that concern ALL players of the game.
That's not correct. Very few issues will concern ALL players of the game. Something ridiculous like 70% of eve players never leave empire space, none of them will care about your ******** destroying outposts idea. And yet you raised it anyway (and put it on the agenda despite the almost overwhelming negative reception). So there we go, you're wrong. It's for raising issues that concern a portion of the eve population. Removing you as CSM concerns a large portion of the population, you can tell this because of the almost 140 support posts in this thread. This compares very well with other issue threads in this forum (especially considering this thread is quite new compared to most).
Quote: Whereas this is a petty little vendetta that only concerns bitter little fruits and their alts and cheerleaders. So far this thread has less support than Goum got in the election. Its not exactly a sterling triumphant beginning for your crusade and its actually alienated more people than its convinced.
Ever since this issue broke you've been trying to claim that it's a vendetta of only a few people. This is clearly incorrect. The people asking for resignation come from a wide cross section of eve's population. While you may claim that there is a large portion of goonswarm's population is here and taking part in the CSM process. However, that's mostly because unlike almost all of the eve population we actually care about the CSM process. 89% of eve's active players didn't even bother to vote. On the other hand a good portion of goonswarm's population is aware of this forum and for the most part have similar viewpoints on issues (we aren't a homogeneous group, though, people disagree about things constantly).
No matter how many people call for your resignation you'll claim that they are a vocal minority. Shame it's quite clear to all involved that that's far from true. It'll become very clear if you run in the next CSM election.
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Darius JOHNSON
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Posted - 2008.06.14 07:00:00 -
[439]
Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Well technically its designed for showing support for Issues that concern ALL players of the game.
That's not correct. Very few issues will concern ALL players of the game. Something ridiculous like 70% of eve players never leave empire space, none of them will care about your ******** destroying outposts idea. And yet you raised it anyway (and put it on the agenda despite the almost overwhelming negative reception). So there we go, you're wrong. It's for raising issues that concern a portion of the eve population. Removing you as CSM concerns a large portion of the population, you can tell this because of the almost 140 support posts in this thread. This compares very well with other issue threads in this forum (especially considering this thread is quite new compared to most).
Quote: Whereas this is a petty little vendetta that only concerns bitter little fruits and their alts and cheerleaders. So far this thread has less support than Goum got in the election. Its not exactly a sterling triumphant beginning for your crusade and its actually alienated more people than its convinced.
Ever since this issue broke you've been trying to claim that it's a vendetta of only a few people. This is clearly incorrect. The people asking for resignation come from a wide cross section of eve's population. While you may claim that there is a large portion of goonswarm's population is here and taking part in the CSM process. However, that's mostly because unlike almost all of the eve population we actually care about the CSM process. 89% of eve's active players didn't even bother to vote. On the other hand a good portion of goonswarm's population is aware of this forum and for the most part have similar viewpoints on issues (we aren't a homogeneous group, though, people disagree about things constantly).
No matter how many people call for your resignation you'll claim that they are a vocal minority. Shame it's quite clear to all involved that that's far from true. It'll become very clear if you run in the next CSM election.
That's not PRECISELY what I told you to post pleb. 30 demerits.
Originally by: Jade Constantine You might be a big man on the internets Darius but prepare to be laughed at quite a lot in Europe.
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Mister Spanky
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.14 07:02:00 -
[440]
Edited by: Mister Spanky on 14/06/2008 07:04:28 I have some sympathy for Jade in the muting issue and as Chairman he certainly does have the right to do that when necessary, but the dictatorial powers he is trying to give himself are as astonishing as they are corrupt.
The Chair has no right to veto a vote. The Chair has no right to set the agenda of a meeting and The Chair most certainly has no right to refuse a vote of no confidence.
The role of the Chairman is to moderate and facilitate the meeting. He can have a deciding vote if the ballot is a dead heat but to give himself the power to veto a vote defeats the whole point of having the committee in the first place. Also, every member has the right to abstain from a vote and the Chair has no right to criticize never mind change the vote because of it.
The Chairman does not set the agenda - the members of the committee do. At the end of the meeting each member should be given the opportunity to add an item to the agenda of the next meeting and the Chairman has no right to refuse.
As for the Chairman refusing to allow a vote of no confidence in himself, well, do I really need to explain why that is utterly ridiculous?
Speaking of Jade giving himself powers he has no right to possess, he also seems to have set himself up as dictator for life according to his explanation as to why he cannot be replaced. That explanation, unless I'm very much mistaken, applies to members of the committee, not the the role of Chairman itself, which incidentally, he usurped in the first place.
So yeah - I regretfully support this motion, which Jade has no right to refuse. A vote of no confidence must be attended to immediately under an "Extraordinary General Meeting" which again, Jade has no right to refuse.
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Azeroth Uluntil
Trident Enterprises Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.06.14 10:20:00 -
[441]
Quite an amusing read... Should lock you guys up in a room, give you all baseball bats and let you duke it out that way seeing as this seems to be doing absolutely nothing...
Meet on common ground and re-work it. Set ground rules. Get things done properly instead of wasting everyones time.
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Allaria Kriss
Elipse Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.14 11:54:00 -
[442]
Edited by: Allaria Kriss on 14/06/2008 11:55:22 Okay, I'm going to be short and simple here.
Jade:
1) Continues to ignore many people with valid points.
2) Uses the name of the game's largest alliance as an insult and implies they're all stupid children, in public.
3) Continues to smokescreen issues instead of dealing with them.
4) Is letting the power he is trying to give himself go to his head.
5) Is bickering with Darius like a child.
6) Has become a synonym for 'Annoying, arrogant *******.'
7) Is now being told to GTFO in one of the most epic threads on Assembly Hall.
Jade, give up and leave while you still have some tiny shred of dignity.
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Leora Nomen
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Posted - 2008.06.14 13:03:00 -
[443]
quite obvious this isn't going to work well otherwise
guide to game time codes |
Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.14 15:00:00 -
[444]
Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 14/06/2008 05:26:00
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
I posted here in response to your post here mentioning me by name. It's right here in this thread.
Yep thats right I had stated that you were too smart to be seen wasting everyone's time with a crappy motion like this. I'm happy to take it back. Obviously you aren't that smart after all. If you had "moved on" then why provoke this argument by claiming I blocked your motions when what I actually did was explain to you the process of how the Issues had to be raised?
Seriously Darius. You need to chill and bow out of this stupid thread. Its not helping your good judgment to be forced to perform for the goon chorus.
Because only when it became clear that you would lose such a vote did you declare unilaterally that all such votes were verboten. The council had been running administrative procedural votes for three meetings in the same manner before the call to remove was placed. You had brought administrative procedural votes to these meetings with no objections.
You're a liar. You twist the truth so that you can say things that might be maybe possibly true in order to convey other meanings. A good example is when a goon re-hosted your maison site. You said "i have nothing to do with the hosting of that page" which, despite you creating the page, hosting it on your own domain for a long time, having posted in other boards in confirmation of you owning the site, could possibly construed to be true because that particular copy you did not put online. You said this to disassociate yourself from the content.
Its the same thing here. It is technically true that you did not "block" the motion, but only because there is no technical procedure called "blocking" that you could have taken advantage of.
You did stop the motion from going to a vote. You did previously allow motions of similar nature from going to a vote You had previously brought similar motions to a vote You had never objected before to any procedural motion before such a point
So what changed? The motion was unfavorable to you and was likely to pass. Just like when you editorialized Hardin's motion (after without right or justification barring him from a meeting) to formalize the process by which alternatives entered and left the status of equal voting members.
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fuze
InfoMorph Services Ltd
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Posted - 2008.06.14 15:48:00 -
[445]
Jade continues to show his unprofessionalism and is letting down all his voters IMHO. You should step down, let the vice take your place and shut the heck up.
And if you continue to be such a pigheaded person it would make sense for the CSM to have meetings with 8 people.
Honestly, you make me sick for trying to ruin the first CSM because of your own petty ego and I wished CCP never unbanned your sorry behind. |
Farrqua
Turbo Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.14 16:04:00 -
[446]
Originally by: fuze
I wished CCP never unbanned your sorry behind.
Um, what?
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.14 16:19:00 -
[447]
Originally by: Farrqua
Originally by: fuze
I wished CCP never unbanned your sorry behind.
Um, what?
Jade was banned from the forums for a significant amount of time(for doing pretty much exactly what he is doing here). A few months before taking sign ups for the CSM CCP issued a blanket amnesty for all forum accounts that were not removed due to serious infractions(like posting goatse on the forums)
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Mister Spanky
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.14 16:37:00 -
[448]
Originally by: fuze Jade continues to show his unprofessionalism and is letting down all his voters IMHO. You should step down, let the vice take your place and shut the heck up.
And if you continue to be such a pigheaded person it would make sense for the CSM to have meetings with 8 people.
Honestly, you make me sick for trying to ruin the first CSM because of your own petty ego and I wished CCP never unbanned your sorry behind.
The way I see things it's not too late for Jade. Sure he's overstepped the mark and assumed far more power than he is legitimately entitled to, but the situation could be resolved if he accepted the following points:
1. The Chair has no right to veto.
2. The Chair has no right to exclude members from a meeting or a vote without the agreement of the Council.
3. The Chair has no right to set the agenda or dictate procedures without the consent and support of the committee.
4. The Chair has no right to vote on any issue at all unless the ballot is tied and he is required to cast the deciding vote.
If Jade could accept those basic principles of democratic procedure then the problem would be solved.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.14 16:52:00 -
[449]
The chair is an equal voting member there is no reason to disallow him from partaking in discussion and voting. There are 9 people on the council and so long as the chair doesn't attempt to railroad the others and powergrab so that the CSM does what he wants when he wants there is no problem with it.
Non-voting chairs are precautions that need to be taken in larger bodies where the sheer number of people make participation skew the process too much to also allow the chair to participate in discussions and vote on resolutions.
It should not be needed here, and until its shown that such a system does not work with a reasonable person at in the chair its unreasonable to suggest it should be changed.
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Mister Spanky
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.14 17:13:00 -
[450]
Edited by: Mister Spanky on 14/06/2008 17:14:31
Originally by: Goumindong The chair is an equal voting member there is no reason to disallow him from partaking in discussion and voting. There are 9 people on the council and so long as the chair doesn't attempt to railroad the others and powergrab so that the CSM does what he wants when he wants there is no problem with it.
This is precisely what is happening.
Quote: Non-voting chairs are precautions that need to be taken in larger bodies where the sheer number of people make participation skew the process too much to also allow the chair to participate in discussions and vote on resolutions.
No they are not. I've never been a member of a committee that allowed the Chair a vote in any other circumstance other than a dead heat. The Chair is supposed to be a neutral moderator and is normally extremely reluctant to reveal their position on any issue unless forced to do so in the event of a deadlocked vote. To do so in a real life political environment would be considered extremely unprofessional at best.
Quote: It should not be needed here, and until its shown that such a system does not work with a reasonable person at in the chair its unreasonable to suggest it should be changed.
Oh I see. You don't want to resolve the issue amicably. You just want to get rid of Jade no matter what. Okay, that's a perfectly reasonable position to take, I guess. I was just trying to be diplomatic.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.14 17:18:00 -
[451]
Originally by: Mister Spanky I've never been a member of a committee that allowed the Chair a vote in any other circumstance other than a dead heat.
I have. It went fairly well, but there were only 12 of us.
Quote:
Oh I see. You don't want to resolve the issue amicably. You just want to get rid of Jade no matter what. Okay, that's a perfectly reasonable position to take, I guess. I was just trying to be diplomatic.
No, if Jade can be reasonable there is nothing wrong with Jade being the chair. Jade should only be removed if he cannot be reasonable. If there is anything "not diplomatic" its telling an elected member of the council their vote should only count in the event of a tie.
We all know what happens when you tell an elected member of the council that their votes don't count. Jade did it, and we have to deal with the fallout.
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d'hofren
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.14 17:49:00 -
[452]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Farrqua
Originally by: fuze
I wished CCP never unbanned your sorry behind.
Um, what?
Jade was banned from the forums for a significant amount of time(for doing pretty much exactly what he is doing here). A few months before taking sign ups for the CSM CCP issued a blanket amnesty for all forum accounts that were not removed due to serious infractions(like posting goatse on the forums)
Hang on Goum, point of order here. I think I should explain HOW forum bans used to work, just so people have the full background the olf forum ban thing.
Forum bans use to be issued after a set number of warnings. Warnings did not expire over time. The longer a person participated on the the eve-o forums the more likely they were to rack up the warnings and thus be subjected to an infinite time ban.
You have been around on SHC long enough to know that back then a lot of the more active forum folks got hit with perma bans. It's part of the reason that SHC was set up IIRC.
Wasn't it three warnings and your out?
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.14 18:01:00 -
[453]
Originally by: d'hofren
Hang on Goum, point of order here. I think I should explain HOW forum bans used to work, just so people have the full background the olf forum ban thing.
Forum bans use to be issued after a set number of warnings. Warnings did not expire over time. The longer a person participated on the the eve-o forums the more likely they were to rack up the warnings and thus be subjected to an infinite time ban.
You have been around on SHC long enough to know that back then a lot of the more active forum folks got hit with perma bans. It's part of the reason that SHC was set up IIRC.
Wasn't it three warnings and your out?
I've received one warning my entire time on the forums and I've been more prolific in terms of posts and words than most people(E.G. I have 40% more posts than Jade with a higher average character count). You had to be pretty consistently abusive to receive enough warnings to get banned because of it. Granted it could be "light" abuse. But its very unlikely for it to occur without that pattern of behavior.
Given Jades posting here and elsewhere I am not surprised in the least that he was given an involuntary permanent vacation. Especially since, in this environment, where we ought to be talking about stuff that is fairly in game politic neutral(in a game where we shoot each other and generally harbor ill will), and so you would expect the debate to be more tame than when you are talking about things like who won what engagement and who was winning a war, he has done little but insult others and insinuate about some conspiracy against him.
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Torshin
InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.06.14 18:39:00 -
[454]
IIRC jade got banned for sig size violations not walls of texts
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d'hofren
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.14 18:46:00 -
[455]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: d'hofren
Hang on Goum, point of order here. I think I should explain HOW forum bans used to work, just so people have the full background the olf forum ban thing.
Forum bans use to be issued after a set number of warnings. Warnings did not expire over time. The longer a person participated on the the eve-o forums the more likely they were to rack up the warnings and thus be subjected to an infinite time ban.
You have been around on SHC long enough to know that back then a lot of the more active forum folks got hit with perma bans. It's part of the reason that SHC was set up IIRC.
Wasn't it three warnings and your out?
I've received one warning my entire time on the forums and I've been more prolific in terms of posts and words than most people(E.G. I have 40% more posts than Jade with a higher average character count). You had to be pretty consistently abusive to receive enough warnings to get banned because of it. Granted it could be "light" abuse. But its very unlikely for it to occur without that pattern of behavior.
Given Jades posting here and elsewhere I am not surprised in the least that he was given an involuntary permanent vacation. Especially since, in this environment, where we ought to be talking about stuff that is fairly in game politic neutral(in a game where we shoot each other and generally harbor ill will), and so you would expect the debate to be more tame than when you are talking about things like who won what engagement and who was winning a war, he has done little but insult others and insinuate about some conspiracy against him.
I am not getting drawn on this thread or discussion. I dislike the vitriol and hate these kind of things bring, it doesn't add to my enjoyment of the game.
I just felt I ought to explain how things were a lot different then.
A lot of people got banned for very little and it was a major bone of contention for most forum regulars, to the point that the mechanism was eventually changed.
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Theramin Dogon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.14 20:18:00 -
[456]
Edited by: Theramin Dogon on 14/06/2008 20:18:02
Originally by: d'hofren Hang on Goum, point of order here. I think I should explain HOW forum bans used to work, just so people have the full background the olf forum ban thing.
If there's anyone who has anything to gain from explaining how something works, it's Jade. Unfortunately, all he seems to want to do is run around the issue dismissively and throw insults at everyone.
Not to say you're a Jade alt, but just that he could take the time to explain things without so much "vitriol and hate", as you put it. |
JafoPBCFR
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Posted - 2008.06.14 20:35:00 -
[457]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Aprudena Gist
Says the idiot who started all the ******** power play crap just get out.
You sound a little bit stressed. Maybe have a cup of tea and play some internet spaceships rather than student politics?
Seriously its not the end of the world that you don't get your way on this. Pace yourself, maybe I'll get indicted by the international war crimes tribunal for internet posting or perhaps you could open a class action suit and try to have me deported to texas or something?
i dont think Texas would want ya. I know I Sure dont!
and you said you hate Darius. Wow you hate another person over a video game? Proof your in need of a real life.
Sure theres Characters i dont like in this game. But i dont hate anyone in this game. prob because i know. Behind the keyboard there not the same person they are in game.
Much Like having the Name Jade and really having the name Andrew.
Step Down Now make it rie. Show you can realize your not for the good of the fgame and for only you personal powertrip as a roleplayer. Give the chair to one whos willing to be impartial and is not going to see a goon at every turn!
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itsan egro
Nobody likes me
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Posted - 2008.06.14 21:29:00 -
[458]
jade, there's always room for you in my corp
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Qaedienne
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Posted - 2008.06.15 06:47:00 -
[459]
Edited by: Qaedienne on 15/06/2008 06:48:27
Quote: No, if Jade can bend over for Goons there is nothing wrong with Jade being the chair. Jade should only be removed if he disagrees with a Goon. If there is anything "not diplomatic" its telling an elected Goon to follow the rules that apply to every other CSM.
We all know what happens when you tell a Goon that they can't have their way. Jade did it, and we have to deal with hundreds of crying Goons, every day.
Fyp.
Seriously, grow up. The Goons have 2 members on the council and still ***** every day. It's ******* pathetic, and so are you.
Also, all the critics need to stop using democracy as their reason. You clearly don't understand it, or you wouldn't attempt to overthrow the top democratically elected official while simultaneously claiming you're doing it for "democracy". Jade was elected chair, and is the top vote-getter in the CSM elections. In light of that, she wins every argument that uses democracy as the measurement. Period. And, by definition, every attempt to remove her as chair or limit her ability to act either as a CSM or chair is undemocratic.
From reading the complaints against Jade, what most of them seem to be getting at is that she is authoritarian (or against anarchism). That is not incompatible with democracy, as in most democratic systems the elected officials have all/most of the authority.
Edit - Learn your governments, noobs!
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LASER WATCHER
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.15 06:58:00 -
[460]
Originally by: Qaedienne Edited by: Qaedienne on 15/06/2008 06:48:27
Quote: No, if Jade can bend over for Goons there is nothing wrong with Jade being the chair. Jade should only be removed if he disagrees with a Goon. If there is anything "not diplomatic" its telling an elected Goon to follow the rules that apply to every other CSM.
We all know what happens when you tell a Goon that they can't have their way. Jade did it, and we have to deal with hundreds of crying Goons, every day.
Fyp.
Seriously, grow up. The Goons have 2 members on the council and still ***** every day. It's ******* pathetic, and so are you.
Also, all the critics need to stop using democracy as their reason. You clearly don't understand it, or you wouldn't attempt to overthrow the top democratically elected official while simultaneously claiming you're doing it for "democracy". Jade was elected chair, and is the top vote-getter in the CSM elections. In light of that, she wins every argument that uses democracy as the measurement. Period. And, by definition, every attempt to remove her as chair or limit her ability to act either as a CSM or chair is undemocratic.
From reading the complaints against Jade, what most of them seem to be getting at is that she is authoritarian (or against anarchism). That is not incompatible with democracy, as in most democratic systems the elected officials have all/most of the authority.
Edit - Learn your governments, noobs!
my government has the ability to impeach presidents that were democratically elected because they are bad _____
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Qaedienne
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Posted - 2008.06.15 07:09:00 -
[461]
Originally by: LASER WATCHER my government has the ability to impeach presidents that were democratically elected because they are bad
Then your government is a republic.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.15 07:19:00 -
[462]
Originally by: Qaedienne
Originally by: LASER WATCHER my government has the ability to impeach presidents that were democratically elected because they are bad
Then your government is a republic.
Assuming that Mr. All Caps is an American then you're right, but your statement does not logically follow from what he said. For example, in a Westminster system, if the MPs lose confidence in one person as Prime Minister and decide that they'd prefer another person to have the title, then that second one becomes PM. The person at the top gets kicked out, but it's hardly undemocratic - if anything, it's a better expression of democracy, since the voters changing their minds results in a change in the outcome. Similarly, see any type of recall vote.
Using words like "undemocratic" is excessive - the worst that can be said is that people are looking to do something not allowed by what passes for the constitution. That statement at least has the virtue of accuracy. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
Evita Achura
Science and Trade Institute
|
Posted - 2008.06.15 07:31:00 -
[463]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Negative. Basically its part of our job to ignore the people who vote. 200 people who don't like me are worthless. Sorry to disappoint you but threads exposing my complete and utterly contemptible corruption simply mean nothing when you compare it to aggression timers not going away... Thats why no post like this will be advocated in good faith by a CSM delegate. A) it brings nothing to the game, and B) it would be embarrassing the CSM delegate to bring such a motion and have it voted down on the public record wasting time better alloted for decent issues.
Fixed.
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Trader Choco
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Posted - 2008.06.15 07:54:00 -
[464]
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Qaedienne
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Posted - 2008.06.15 08:35:00 -
[465]
Quote: Assuming that Mr. All Caps is an American then you're right, but your statement does not logically follow from what he said. For example, in a Westminster system, if the MPs lose confidence in one person as Prime Minister and decide that they'd prefer another person to have the title, then that second one becomes PM. The person at the top gets kicked out, but it's hardly undemocratic - if anything, it's a better expression of democracy, since the voters changing their minds results in a change in the outcome. Similarly, see any type of recall vote.
In a Westminster system there is no direct popular vote regarding any position other than MP, so your point is muddled at best. The example of a Presidency was better to use, as that position is voted on directly by the populace but can be ousted by something other than another popular vote. Obviously, in that case the rule of law is greater than the popular vote. In your example it's rule of law on both sides and no direct elections have occured.
Recall votes can be democratic, but I should point out that they are unnecessary in a true democracy. In a true democracy there would simply be another election whenever the voters wanted.
Quote: Using words like "undemocratic" is excessive - the worst that can be said is that people are looking to do something not allowed by what passes for the constitution. That statement at least has the virtue of accuracy.
No, it's not excessive. Jade was elected to the chair by popular vote. By definition, anything other than another popular vote that removes her is undemocratic. Your argument that the Westminster system allows for more democracy because it allows voters to change their minds only carries weight if the replacement mechanic/system is at least as democratic as the method used to place the person in office to begin with. The two are the same in the Westminster system, it is undemocratic if the council removes a chair voted in by popular vote.
And let's not stray too far from the point here: Jade was elected to the chair by popular vote. The Goons claim to want to remove her for "democratic" reasons. I am pointing out that there is only one truly democratic way to remove or replace a directly elected position.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.15 11:23:00 -
[466]
Originally by: Qaedienne ...
lets not make any mistakes here. This started when Jade Constantine threw out Hardin from a meeting against the language in the CSM founding document. He exerted powers that he did not have in order to gain an advantage over an in game enemy.
This escalated when Hardin brought a general motion to the council to formalize when alternates were to stand in for elected representatives. Jade argued hard against this vote, and why wouldn't he, he had just, the previous meeting, excluded another representative with no grounds or authority. When Jade lost that vote he editorialized it in a manner to make everyone else look bad. A member of the council named Inanna Zunni objected to this.
Later, in that same meeting, Jade muted Inanna for making points of order without explanation which many of the council members objected to and then during another vote badgered council members who had already voted into changing their vote before it ended.
Are Goonswarm just "defending their own" in some partisan political play?
Unlikely, Hardin is no friend to goonswarm, we are neutral. We have worked together in the past but typically fight each other. We have a mutual understanding that each will use each other for their own means until such a time as it becomes strategically expedient to do the opposite.
We can work together on the council because we also have a mutual understanding that the council is not a place for those machinations. There is nothing to gain for GS or to take away from our enemies when the game is made more fun everyone benefits. Whether or not that is for the 10,000 people playing factional warfare, the 20,000 people in 0.0 or the 40 people who want to destroy stations. There is only the goal to make the game that we all play better.
Inanna Zunni is a member of Electus Matari, an enemy of CVA for their entire time within the game. Allies to Ursha Kahn during the war where CVA took their space and sent them back to Empire and in general not good friends.
In terms of relevancy to us, Jade Constantine is farther off the radar that groups like Repo who are so far off the radar that half of the goons probably don't even know who they are despite war decs going on for the past year or so. Most what we have had to talk about internally is explaining who Jade was to the majority of Goons.
We have no reason to support either of these people, nor to move against Jade. It gains us nothing.
It is only if the council is to be subverted from its goal of making the game better that we would have any reason to be up in arms. Because we have a stake in having fun.
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fuze
InfoMorph Services Ltd
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Posted - 2008.06.15 12:11:00 -
[467]
Originally by: d'hofren Forum bans use to be issued after a set number of warnings. Warnings did not expire over time. The longer a person participated on the the eve-o forums the more likely they were to rack up the warnings and thus be subjected to an infinite time ban.
Keep digging. Jade went emo on COAD a few times and it seems people forgot about that. Mr Ego doesn't like to be contradicted. It was self destructive back then and it is now. |
Mimedar
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.15 13:11:00 -
[468]
I couldn't keep up with it after page 7, but Jade averaged over 100 words per post, and has about 20 posts during that time frame. It's the internet equivalent of Terry Pratchett's 5 exclamation points.
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Freya Runestone
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Posted - 2008.06.15 14:20:00 -
[469]
agree
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Mika Katon
The Greater Goon GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.15 17:41:00 -
[470]
I support this based on the transcript of the meeting, and Jade's unprofessional behavior in this thread and the meeting.
I don't care if the person holding the chair roleplays a drop bear, they should be able to separate the position from their roleplay and leave tourists alone for the duration of the meeting. If not, they're failing the playerbase and don't deserve the position. |
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SocialPolice
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Posted - 2008.06.15 17:52:00 -
[471]
Originally by: Mika Katon I support this based on the transcript of the meeting, and Jade's unprofessional behavior in this thread and the meeting.
I don't care if the person holding the chair roleplays a drop bear, they should be able to separate the position from their roleplay and leave tourists alone for the duration of the meeting. If not, they're failing the playerbase and don't deserve the position.
They fail YOUR player base. If you dont like it, you and the rest of the goons are free to get the hell out, beg permission to return to second life and rain some ***** again.
EVE would be better without you.
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fuze
InfoMorph Services Ltd
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Posted - 2008.06.15 18:08:00 -
[472]
Originally by: SocialPolice EVE would be better without you.
Originally by: SocialPolice Personally I think the whole CSM should be dissolved and scrapped.
Why bother? Just go back to WoW. |
Qaedienne
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Posted - 2008.06.15 18:45:00 -
[473]
Quote: lets not make any mistakes here.
The first letter of a sentence is capitalized. You fail.
Quote: This started when Jade Constantine threw out Hardin from a meeting against the language in the CSM founding document. He exerted powers that he did not have in order to gain an advantage over an in game enemy.
You mean this?:
[ 2008.05.31 20:51:54 ]Hardin >okay happy to let tusko go on those [ 2008.05.31 20:52:05 ]Hardin >but donÆt agree with the administrative principle [ 2008.05.31 20:52:24 ]Jade Constantine > kk we'll get a proper discussion and vote and decide on it with open discussion Hardin [ 2008.05.31 20:52:32 ]Jade Constantine > for next time okay? [ 2008.05.31 20:52:36 ]Hardin >sure
The menacing way Jade says "for next time okay?" is chilling. Just chilling.
You are making a mountain out of a molehill.
Quote: This escalated when Hardin brought a general motion to the council to formalize when alternates were to stand in for elected representatives. Jade argued hard against this vote, and why wouldn't he, he had just, the previous meeting, excluded another representative with no grounds or authority. When Jade lost that vote he editorialized it in a manner to make everyone else look bad. A member of the council named Inanna Zunni objected to this.
You don't have to assign your own motives to Jade's discussion and vote of this topic, she gave them herself in the chat logs and it wasn't because it would make her decision in the previous meeting look bad.
She had also restated the proposal earlier in the conversation in the exact way you claim is editorialized, and no one objected:
[ 2008.06.08 18:14:52 ]Jade Constantine > okay does anyone want to say something against hardin's proposal - which is (in effect) that any alternative who takes a seat at a meeting can be displaced at any point in that meeting by a csm candidate returning to take over the voting on the remainder [ 2008.06.08 18:14:57 ]Serenity Steele > It seems unreasonable to me, in the current term serving criteria for alternates, to only partially participate in a meeting after making the time free to attend. [ 2008.06.08 18:15:07 ]Inanna Zuni > so far as someone leaving during the meeting, depends if they have "gone" or their comms line went down. Should we penalize for an ISP failure> [ 2008.06.08 18:15:38 ]LaVista Vista >If the person comes back, he just takes over [ 2008.06.08 18:15:49 ]Inanna Zuni > ... at the end of the current item [ 2008.06.08 18:16:00 ]Hardin > yep [ 2008.06.08 18:16:06 ]Serenity Steele > Inanna, IMO yes, we should penalize for an ISP failure. Those are the breaks - get a better ISP or back-up if it's that critical. [ 2008.06.08 18:16:07 ]Dierdra Vaal > I agree with serenity, except I believe the solution is to change the rules so an alt is not counted as having served a term... [ 2008.06.08 18:16:14 ]LaVista Vista >But we can't be halted because someone have a failure. The person looses out on a vote or two, no big deal.
Really, you are trying too hard.
Quote: Later, in that same meeting, Jade muted Inanna for making points of order without explanation which many of the council members objected to and then during another vote badgered council members who had already voted into changing their vote before it ended.
Jade muted Inanna for disrupting a vote. This was something that was voted on in the first meeting, and it is right for her to do this.
You're going to have to point out where she did the "badgering". Your spin is so unspecific I can't tell what you mean.
Quote: Are Goonswarm just "defending their own" in some partisan political play?
Are strawmen really that dangerous to Goonswarm?
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Qaedienne
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Posted - 2008.06.15 19:01:00 -
[474]
Quote: Unlikely, Hardin is no friend to goonswarm, we are neutral. We have worked together in the past but typically fight each other. We have a mutual understanding that each will use each other for their own means until such a time as it becomes strategically expedient to do the opposite.
I'm not aware of anyone (other than yourself) claiming that there is a conspiracy going on in the council.
Looks like another strawman argument.
Quote: We can work together on the council...
Your consistent and focused attacks on council members proves that you can't work together in the council.
Quote: It is only if the council is to be subverted from its goal of making the game better that we would have any reason to be up in arms. Because we have a stake in having fun.
According to Darius, he only represents Goonswarm interests on the council. You guys had better get your stories straight.
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SocialPolice
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Posted - 2008.06.15 19:03:00 -
[475]
Originally by: fuze
Originally by: SocialPolice EVE would be better without you.
Originally by: SocialPolice Personally I think the whole CSM should be dissolved and scrapped.
Why bother? Just go back to WoW.
Never played WoW. I only play EVE.
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Darius JOHNSON
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Posted - 2008.06.15 19:09:00 -
[476]
Originally by: Qaedienne
According to Darius, he only represents Goonswarm interests on the council. You guys had better get your stories straight.
I will welcome you to provide the quote of me saying this alt.
Originally by: Jade Constantine You might be a big man on the internets Darius but prepare to be laughed at quite a lot in Europe.
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JafoPBCFR
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Posted - 2008.06.15 20:13:00 -
[477]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
Originally by: Qaedienne
According to Darius, he only represents Goonswarm interests on the council. You guys had better get your stories straight.
I will welcome you to provide the quote of me saying this alt.
yeah i wanna see it to. because if he did. Id like him off the CSM aswell.
but i have only seen sofar his want to keep himself open to public scrutiny. And wants nothing behind closed doors.
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JafoPBCFR
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Posted - 2008.06.15 20:23:00 -
[478]
Originally by: SocialPolice
Originally by: Mika Katon I support this based on the transcript of the meeting, and Jade's unprofessional behavior in this thread and the meeting.
I don't care if the person holding the chair roleplays a drop bear, they should be able to separate the position from their roleplay and leave tourists alone for the duration of the meeting. If not, they're failing the playerbase and don't deserve the position.
They fail YOUR player base. If you dont like it, you and the rest of the goons are free to get the hell out, beg permission to return to second life and rain some ***** again.
Hmm seems Jade has a new Alt. sees goons everywhere still i see.
Yes yes i know im a goon too. goods are everywhere. Wait is that a bagelbite? or is a good disguised as a bagelbite? Let the GOON Hysteria begin!!!!
Oh BTW ya really are pitiful.
EVE would be better without you.
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Qaedienne
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Posted - 2008.06.15 21:49:00 -
[479]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
Originally by: Qaedienne
According to Darius, he only represents Goonswarm interests on the council. You guys had better get your stories straight.
I will welcome you to provide the quote of me saying this alt.
Hmm, can't find the post so I'll retract it for now.
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JafoPBCFR
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Posted - 2008.06.15 22:25:00 -
[480]
Originally by: Qaedienne
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
Originally by: Qaedienne
According to Darius, he only represents Goonswarm interests on the council. You guys had better get your stories straight.
I will welcome you to provide the quote of me saying this alt.
Hmm, can't find the post so I'll retract it for now.
I dont think youll find one. you may find one of others saying he does but ive followed the CSM posts and have never seen Darius say he was only out for goonswarm interests.
If he did id call for his removal and i think he knows full well it would go over like a lead balloon.
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UnitedStatesOfAmerica
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.15 23:01:00 -
[481]
If Jade is willing to mute a CSM rep, then how long till he tries to mute the people?
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Dippin Dots
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Posted - 2008.06.15 23:54:00 -
[482]
Originally by: UnitedStatesOfAmerica If Jade is willing to mute a CSM rep, then how long till he tries to mute the people?
That has already happened. They're representatives that don't actually represent us. The issues of greatest concern to the players are not the ones being put forth for discussion.
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Eveliddia
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.16 00:19:00 -
[483]
Edited by: Eveliddia on 16/06/2008 00:19:41 It is clear that some people just have no idea who and what Jade is about.
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SOFcode X0345
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Posted - 2008.06.16 03:29:00 -
[484]
Remove him.
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Willford Bremly
Domini Umbrus Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2008.06.16 04:54:00 -
[485]
It is too creepy. It should not have a seat in the CSM. »\(¦_o)/»
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.16 06:14:00 -
[486]
Originally by: Qaedienne
I'm not aware of anyone (other than yourself) claiming that there is a conspiracy going on in the council.
Have you even read these threads? Its Jade Constantine who has claimed a Goon Conspiracy.
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/792898/page/2#48
Also, I am not claiming there is a conspiracy. Malfeasance by a single member is not a conspiracy.
Originally by: Qaedienne
You mean this?:
Yes, you will note I said "it started" because that was what kicked it off. Since all parties involved were content to deal with it the next time the conflict was delayed. Then Hardin brought the motion to ensure that it would not happen again,then Jade had a hissy fit when the vote didn't go her way.
Quote:
She had also restated the proposal earlier in the conversation in the exact way you claim is editorialized, and no one objected:
Inanna Zunni did. Hardin and Inanna had earlier.
Regarding the "badgering" you must just be reading this selectively
go Here for the logs and Inannas objection.
Quote:
Jade muted Inanna for disrupting a vote. This was something that was voted on in the first meeting, and it is right for her to do this.
No it was not. Please post the full logs that show this(i say this with full knowledge that the logs show only a vote that not everyone gets channel op which has no explicit or implicit meaning that anyone does have authority to use them at their digression or even that anyone at all had them specifically.
Quote:
Are strawmen really that dangerous to Goonswarm?
I am sorry is that not what is being alleged?
Originally by: Qaedienne
According to Darius, he only represents Goonswarm interests on the council. You guys had better get your stories straight.
No, the only one who has done that is Jade Constantine. Though it seems he has edited the posts on Eve-O that show it.
http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=13084.msg454559#msg454559
Originally by: Qaedienne
The Euros were up past midnight already. He didn't demand anything regarding the U.S. CSM's, he simply scheduled the meeting. He explained why the meeting had to be held on Thursday, also (submission deadline). He also scheduled a second meeting for Sunday so that all could attend.
The second meeting had nothing to do with the first. No one was asking that he schedule the meeting on a date after the deadline. The Euros were not up past midnight, the GMT time for the meeting was 20:00. Or 8PM
Quote:
Dissent can be justified. Do you feel like you have done this? Do you feel like most of the things you have accused Jade of can even be justified?
Absolutely. And we have presented our case far and wide. You have not presented a rebuttal. Do so if you think it is not justified.
Quote:
Scheduling meetings is mundane. Your claim that there's some malfeasance going on regarding this has been proven baseless, but you persist in your accusation.
Saying "nuh uh" without argument or evidence is not "proven baseless"
|
Wat4shi
|
Posted - 2008.06.16 07:11:00 -
[487]
It seems to me, any reasonable person can see what Jade has done.
The fact that Jade believes they are not wrong and threatens/promise stronger moderation, is a valid reason to remove them from chair.
Honestly, I think the CSM would be a lot better as a 'think tank' then this council crap. Where they would have their own forums and be in some dark corner and try to squeeze out a gem to improve Eve.
|
Davor
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.16 07:41:00 -
[488]
IMO Jade has shown she is grossly under qualified to be in any position of authority, let alone CSM Chairperson. I support this idea, get him out as soon as possible. |
Waterfowl Democracy
The Ministry of Indigenous Affairs GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.16 08:44:00 -
[489]
Originally by: Qaedienne
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
Originally by: Qaedienne
According to Darius, he only represents Goonswarm interests on the council. You guys had better get your stories straight.
I will welcome you to provide the quote of me saying this alt.
Hmm, can't find the post so I'll retract it for now.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=759968&page=11#322
Am I doing this right? |
D'Avore
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.16 10:22:00 -
[490]
I support this motion.
The council as a whole needs to move on from all these administrative issues and start finding solutions to ingame problems.
You guys should start putting your heads together and give CCP solutions that are acceptable from all your different perspectives.
Remember that you are a advisory council - your role isn't to give ccp a list of problems, but some way of resolving them.
I don't believe this council can do something useful in it's current forum.
[/rant]
|
|
KaiH
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.16 12:42:00 -
[491]
supported, because I like fun
|
Zylvana Sunstrider
|
Posted - 2008.06.16 12:44:00 -
[492]
It ends here
|
Qaedienne
|
Posted - 2008.06.16 13:11:00 -
[493]
Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy Am I doing this right?
Trolling? Yes, you are doing it right.
|
Tzar'rim
|
Posted - 2008.06.16 13:40:00 -
[494]
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 16/06/2008 13:41:10 wall of text = the need to overshout others = muting others to make sure you're the one being heard/in control
This is news how?
|
Block Ukx
KDM Corp Firmus Ixion
|
Posted - 2008.06.16 16:25:00 -
[495]
IÆm disappointed with the CSM chairmanÆs behavior after reading the minutes. Jade, it is time to step down from the chairman position. BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk |
Zaran Darkstar
Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2008.06.16 16:42:00 -
[496]
I haven't vote for Jade. But what is that you all guys have against Jade? What is the real reason behind your hate? What were the specific cases were Jade failed? Commends like "Jade sucks, need to be removed" tell me that it is you who suck. So stay cool and express your legitimate serious reasons that make you wish Jade to be removed.
I am waiting....
Till i hread some serious reasoning the idea is UNSUPPORTED.
|
willschn794
|
Posted - 2008.06.16 17:35:00 -
[497]
Originally by: Zaran Darkstar I haven't vote for Jade. But what is that you all guys have against Jade? What is the real reason behind your hate? What were the specific cases were Jade failed? Commends like "Jade sucks, need to be removed" tell me that it is you who suck. So stay cool and express your legitimate serious reasons that make you wish Jade to be removed.
I am waiting....
Till i hread some serious reasoning the idea is UNSUPPORTED.
Perhaps you should start by reading this thread? Everything's here.
|
Zaran Darkstar
Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2008.06.16 18:14:00 -
[498]
Edited by: Zaran Darkstar on 16/06/2008 18:15:40
Originally by: willschn794
Originally by: Zaran Darkstar I haven't vote for Jade. But what is that you all guys have against Jade? What is the real reason behind your hate? What were the specific cases were Jade failed? Commends like "Jade sucks, need to be removed" tell me that it is you who suck. So stay cool and express your legitimate serious reasons that make you wish Jade to be removed.
I am waiting....
Till i hread some serious reasoning the idea is UNSUPPORTED.
Perhaps you should start by reading this thread? Everything's here.
The OP says nothing. Am i supposed to dig a 17 page full of mostly generic negative comments against Jade to discover a small part of the truth behind this hate movement against him especially when the OP says nothing specific? How about some of you that also voted positivly make a summary about it? What the hell you vote for it! I am sure you must have an idea WHY you did it. PS And why are you people using alts and not your mains? Afraid of anything? |
Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.16 18:22:00 -
[499]
Edited by: Goumindong on 16/06/2008 18:25:23 Because Jade Constantine overstepped his authority, denigrated the other members of the council, used the chair as a bully pulpit, and accepts no fault or responsibility for what happened.
Seriously, read the thread.
ed: What do you mean the OP says nothing, are you sure you are reading it?
Originally by: The OP Deeply disturbed by the actions of the current chair, Jade Constantine, in CSM Meeting Three and during the time since, including editorializing at the time of the meeting, and muting an elected CSM representative who spoke out against said editorializing,
Further deploring Jade Constantine's failure to take responsibility for said failures as Chairperson, as well as his threatening of further immature and reprehensible actions,
Originally by: The OP Yeah. I have too much free time. Aside from the manner in which it is written I think it speaks for itself. The thread for CSM Meeting 3, with relevant Jadeisms, can be found here - http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=788122&page=5
If Jade can't take responsibility for her actions, there is no hope that she will avoid those actions in the future, especially as Jade has threatened to be even MORE childish in her future.
|
Parsival
The Avalon Foundation Delta.Green
|
Posted - 2008.06.16 19:05:00 -
[500]
Its rampant ego is costing the CSM credibility while it remains in the position of Chairperson.
|
|
Romale
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.16 19:27:00 -
[501]
Compleatly childish theres no room for people like that
|
Maitsu
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.16 19:48:00 -
[502]
Originally by: Block Ukx IÆm disappointed with the CSM chairmanÆs behavior after reading the minutes. Jade, it is time to step down from the chairman position.
Even FIX agrees and they have many more reasons to hate goons than you.
|
Impact Crater
|
Posted - 2008.06.16 19:49:00 -
[503]
Supporting. |
Chococacho
|
Posted - 2008.06.16 21:13:00 -
[504]
Tired of reading her/him/its posts
|
Zaran Darkstar
Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2008.06.17 00:29:00 -
[505]
Originally by: Goumindong ...
I think this vendeta has gone a bit too far. It seemed to me that Jade was unfamiliar with the controls of muting/unmuting, perhaps the next meeting should be done using another way. IRC etc...
As for the issues he proposed. Maybe these are not the most popular matters but most of them are valid ideas. There is so much space for small and big improvments to this game that no matter where you start its for the best or mostly for the best .
Perhaps Jade is not puting the stuff you would like but eventually his time will be over and then some other will take over. In the meantime i say it again i don't think the issues he puts for voting are so bad. Maybe not the most popular but they do aim to improve things.
As for his behavior i can't be certain if he overeacted. The logs can tell you only so much... Discipline is needed to a discussion... In any case i would say let him be judged in the end or at least after some more council assemblings.
Hopefully he will get the hang of it and become better. Bottom line is "Let's give the guy a chance to get better" |
Katyayani Koriau
Auto De Fe
|
Posted - 2008.06.17 01:00:00 -
[506]
Jade should be removed and banned. mooting another mayor was a crime.
|
Qaedienne
|
Posted - 2008.06.17 01:08:00 -
[507]
Most of her detractors were already moot.
|
Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.17 01:47:00 -
[508]
Originally by: Zaran Darkstar
I think this vendeta has gone a bit too far.
What vendetta?
For the rest of it, you still haven't read the thread. We've been over all of that multiple times.
|
Erfurt
VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2008.06.17 01:48:00 -
[509]
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat."
|
Vanessa Vale
|
Posted - 2008.06.17 03:36:00 -
[510]
Originally by: Evita Achura
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Negative. Basically its part of our job to ignore the people who vote. 200 people who don't like me are worthless. Sorry to disappoint you but threads exposing my complete and utterly contemptible corruption simply mean nothing when you compare it to aggression timers not going away... Thats why no post like this will be advocated in good faith by a CSM delegate. A) it brings nothing to the game, and B) it would be embarrassing the CSM delegate to bring such a motion and have it voted down on the public record wasting time better alloted for decent issues.
Fixed.
Fixed? That's amusing. I swear that's what Jade has been saying all along...
Minmatar Boost Brigade |
|
Martin VanBuren
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.17 03:54:00 -
[511]
Originally by: Zaran Darkstar
Originally by: Goumindong ...
I think this vendeta has gone a bit too far. It seemed to me that Jade was unfamiliar with the controls of muting/unmuting, perhaps the next meeting should be done using another way. IRC etc...
As for the issues he proposed. Maybe these are not the most popular matters but most of them are valid ideas. There is so much space for small and big improvments to this game that no matter where you start its for the best or mostly for the best .
Perhaps Jade is not puting the stuff you would like but eventually his time will be over and then some other will take over. In the meantime i say it again i don't think the issues he puts for voting are so bad. Maybe not the most popular but they do aim to improve things.
As for his behavior i can't be certain if he overeacted. The logs can tell you only so much... Discipline is needed to a discussion... In any case i would say let him be judged in the end or at least after some more council assemblings.
Hopefully he will get the hang of it and become better. Bottom line is "Let's give the guy a chance to get better"
Hey guys I'm not going to read the thread or try to understand the situation at all but you should take my criticisms seriously
|
Zaran Darkstar
Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2008.06.17 05:15:00 -
[512]
Edited by: Zaran Darkstar on 17/06/2008 05:22:06 I read the topic. Strange how you show so much care about this and not for example about that other thing with the guy that was banned because he made the mistake to try to make the game a little more fair for everybody.
Seems that for Jade behavior you are sooo sensitive but for the guy that was banned you don;t say a word. |
Avon
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.06.17 07:43:00 -
[513]
Edited by: Avon on 17/06/2008 07:46:06
Originally by: Goumindong Malfeasance by a single member is not a conspiracy.
I'm saving that for the next devhax thread.
Oh, content: Jade won the popular vote, Jade gets the chair. If you hate that, get more votes next time.
Stop crying because you/your candindate has less popular support, and get out there and put together a positive campaign.
Seriously, a thread full of people voting against democracy is all to odd for me to grasp.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
fuze
InfoMorph Services Ltd
|
Posted - 2008.06.17 08:30:00 -
[514]
Originally by: Avon Seriously, a thread full of people voting against democracy is all to odd for me to grasp.
Seriously, did you read any of those meeting reports? #3 is a real stunner ya know.
If you think this is about in game politics you're missing the point.
I do agree on the democracy part but Jade didn't get voted to bloat his ego some more. He got voted to be a CSM chairman and failing to fulfill that role badly. Especially at the failing to acknowledge your own mistakes part. If you're not willing to be reasonable its impossible to work together as a team.
|
Avon
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.06.17 11:14:00 -
[515]
Originally by: fuze
I do agree on the democracy part but Jade didn't get voted to bloat his ego some more. He got voted to be a CSM chairman and failing to fulfill that role badly.
Well, that is the other-side of democracy, innit? You can't un-vote people just because they don't turn out how you wanted.
To be fair, he is the best chairman the CSM has ever had.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Miner Nine
|
Posted - 2008.06.17 12:02:00 -
[516]
Originally by: Atama Cardel Jade, just out of curiosity, whatever happened to you stepping down from chair and letting the CSM vote someone in, like you said you would do at the very start?
And don't try to feign ignorance when you "accidentally" miss this post like you are bound to do
Did this get answer? c/d
|
Katyayani Koriau
Auto De Fe
|
Posted - 2008.06.17 12:06:00 -
[517]
Ipeach Jade She wants to nerd Pulse lasor wtf!
|
Anton Marvik
AnTi. Atrocitas
|
Posted - 2008.06.17 12:08:00 -
[518]
Originally by: Katyayani Koriau
Ipeach Jade She wants to nerd
QFT
|
Rouque Vanderbuilt
Nuts and Bolts
|
Posted - 2008.06.17 12:28:00 -
[519]
/signed
|
fuze
InfoMorph Services Ltd
|
Posted - 2008.06.17 13:39:00 -
[520]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: fuze
I do agree on the democracy part but Jade didn't get voted to bloat his ego some more. He got voted to be a CSM chairman and failing to fulfill that role badly.
Well, that is the other-side of democracy, innit? You can't un-vote people just because they don't turn out how you wanted.
Yes you can. CSM are still subjected to rules and regulations. And CSM with 8 votees still can put up legitimate issues to CCP.
Besides the rule of who will be chairman isn't set in stone. It could be rotated or be elected by the quorum itself. |
|
Jade Constantine
|
Posted - 2008.06.17 14:02:00 -
[521]
The role of chair would be better handled by some kind of non-voting ccp-employee in my opinion. Since all the CSM reps (myself included) have our own votes and interest and aspirations for the game then it sits poorly to have the chair combined with a voting position. Still, I've tried to address this concern in meetings 4/5 by calling the other reps to do the introduction, debate moderation, call to vote on their own Issues and I've only stepped in when asked to by the leading involved rep.
I'd invite your to compare and contrast the stormy meeting 3
With the far smoother and less arguementative meeting 4 and meeting 5
And while speaking of "constructive outcomes" I'd remind you that over the 3 weeks of pre-Iceland talks we have successfully tabled from community discussions the following issues for face to face conference with CCP:
1. Removal of 30/90 day time cards 2. Jump Bridges and Cyno-jammers fix 3. Log Server exploitation/BACON. 4. Skill Queue Functionality? 5. 5% rule is too strict. 6. Kill Rights should be transferable. 7. Alliances in Faction Warfare. 8. Funky POS alterations. 9. Improve Black Ops. 10. Make suicide ganking more difficult 11. General Eve Forums improvement/fixing 12. CSM should vote for its own chairman 13. Evaluation of empire war dec mechanics 14. Feasibility of Outposts going boom 15. Replace double-click in a chat channel 16. Cargo hold size of ships in hanger but not in use 17. Re-examination of 0.0 Sovereignty 18. Reload all Ammo 19. Small Freighters 20. Drone Implants 21. Rigged Ships and Cargo 22. Aggression timer is too short/variable hull fix 23. Improve Bombs 24. Chat Channel Pilot listing 25. EW Icons 26. HUD minimum sizes 27. Personal Assets HUD 28. Skills Page Improvement 29. Assembly Arrays 30. Experimental Industry Issues 31. Science POS improvements 32. Sell Order tweaks 33. Shares Stock Market 34. Contracts Improvements 35. Completion of unfinished Story Arcs in Eve 36. Roleplay Interests in EVE / dynamic consquence 37. Moon Mining Improvement / dynamic seeding 38. PVP Ownership of Wrecks 39. Corporation Standings Slots 40. Corporations automatical get Alliance standings 41. Buff Large Autocannons 42. Colorblind UI 43. Account Security 44. Mac/Linux Client 45. Multi Monitor Support 46. Evemail Spam from corp events.
Each of these issues stood for the mandated 7 days of public discussion. Each was brought up in a formal quorate CSM meeting and received a passing vote. Each has been ruled an Issue of importance and general community interest and has been documented in the form of a submission template and provided in advance to CCP to form the agenda for the conference in Iceland.
Now if anybody still holds that a few sparks and arguments in the debating chamber and some froth on the forums invalidates the good work done by CSM representatives who have worked pretty damn hard to get this thing on the road to a ridiculously short timescale then there's not much I can say to that besides - run next time and show us you can do better.
Because I happen to think this inaugural CSM has done a damn fine job. And anybody continuing to snipe from the sidelines in the face of very clear evidence of accomplishment is being petty, disingenuous and mindlessly vindictive.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Seetesh
Pixels Docks Fang Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.06.17 14:19:00 -
[522]
Supported ive heard of her antics.
|
Tecam Hund
The Buggers
|
Posted - 2008.06.17 16:36:00 -
[523]
No support.
I mean no offense to CSM representatives, but judging from the chat logs it is my opinion that without Jade CSM would stall on take off.
|
Kelsin
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.06.17 16:43:00 -
[524]
Originally by: Tecam Hund No support.
I mean no offense to CSM representatives, but judging from the chat logs it is my opinion that without Jade CSM would stall on take off.
Yup, would have been a mess without someone keeping it moving structured and goal-oriented.
|
Atama Cardel
Even-Flow
|
Posted - 2008.06.17 21:57:00 -
[525]
Originally by: Avon
You can't un-vote people just because they don't turn out how you wanted.
I beg to differ, in my country we have this funny thing called impeachment, when the president that got voted in screws up we can kick him out
|
Lady Starfire
|
Posted - 2008.06.17 22:06:00 -
[526]
Originally by: Seetesh Supported ive heard of it's antics.
Fixed.
|
Hastur DragonTooth
coracao ardente
|
Posted - 2008.06.17 23:41:00 -
[527]
Originally by: Goumindong
Because Jade Constantine overstepped his authority, denigrated the other members of the council, used the chair as a bully pulpit, and accepts no fault or responsibility for what happened.
Seriously, read the thread.
Thumbs down.
And you're not using this thread as a bully pulpit, to denigrate the council chair? Out of the 520+ replies in this thread, probably a hundred are from you personally. You want Jade to fail and are taking every opportunity to try and make that happen. You sir, are just as bad as jade.
Judging from the number of times something akin to, "BUT I WUZ VOTED IN I ARE MOAR IMPORTANT!", has appeared in this thread, the CSM seem to care more about some virtual brownie points than the job they're supposed to do for us. A pox on the lot of them, worthless scrubs. Arguing about minutia and taking every opportunity to disrupt the process is not what you were elected to do. .. |
Zancera
|
Posted - 2008.06.18 10:56:00 -
[528]
|
Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.18 11:19:00 -
[529]
Originally by: Hastur DragonTooth
Originally by: Goumindong
Because Jade Constantine overstepped his authority, denigrated the other members of the council, used the chair as a bully pulpit, and accepts no fault or responsibility for what happened.
Seriously, read the thread.
Thumbs down.
And you're not using this thread as a bully pulpit, to denigrate the council chair? Out of the 520+ replies in this thread, probably a hundred are from you personally. You want Jade to fail and are taking every opportunity to try and make that happen. You sir, are just as bad as jade.
Ad hominem tu quoque. Its also false. I am just a prolific forum *****. Get the evidence and make a decision based upon it, its not my fault the only reasonable conclusion you can come to is unfavorable to Jade.
|
Akiba Penrose
PAK
|
Posted - 2008.06.18 14:48:00 -
[530]
signed - - Falcons |
|
Greyhair
|
Posted - 2008.06.18 19:01:00 -
[531]
|
Temulin
The Avalon Foundation Delta.Green
|
Posted - 2008.06.19 02:41:00 -
[532]
|
Synapse Archae
Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
|
Posted - 2008.06.19 02:54:00 -
[533]
Originally by: Avon Seriously, a thread full of people voting against democracy is all to odd for me to grasp.
This. Thread is tl/dr but funny ironies abound! - - - Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
|
Dolomite Starks
|
Posted - 2008.06.19 05:23:00 -
[534]
Edited by: Dolomite Starks on 19/06/2008 05:23:27 supportin' dis
|
Digital Solaris
|
Posted - 2008.06.19 07:39:00 -
[535]
Jade is a case, his brain releases large quantities of serotonin, making him think that the universe resolve him.
~No, you are not special. I insult everyone. |
Inquisitor Berthez
the oNe Academy
|
Posted - 2008.06.19 09:58:00 -
[536]
Ankhesentawhatshername for president!! \o/
|
Colonel Rykef
Animus Exuro
|
Posted - 2008.06.19 11:56:00 -
[537]
|
Niraco79
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.06.19 15:33:00 -
[538]
NOT supported
|
Princess Gally
|
Posted - 2008.06.19 16:14:00 -
[539]
OP, pick one: - work as intended - Eve is a harsh place - Obvious whine is obvious - go back to wow - can I have your stuff?
Jade has been elected and there's nothing you or anyone else can do about it. You don't like it? then pick one of the bull***t above these forums are full of. Or live with it, move on and let's talk about the game, its future.
But I've read the chat log and if ALL CSM's (except Ankhe tbqh) could focus on the game instead of these powertrip conflicts, maybe we could get something out of this CSM thing...
-------------ONCOMING REVOLUTION------------ Miners united. Set your Trit prices to 8.00! -------------------------------------------- |
Fitz VonHeise
The New Order.
|
Posted - 2008.06.19 20:04:00 -
[540]
Originally by: Avon Well, that is the other-side of democracy, innit? You can't un-vote people just because they don't turn out how you wanted.
Actually you can... it is call... "Re-Call".
|
|
Tempus Iskander
|
Posted - 2008.06.20 07:36:00 -
[541]
Agree Jade is wrong to nerf mining barges and force peeps to fit missile laucnchers to tempest!
|
Nyx Cyth
|
Posted - 2008.06.20 11:30:00 -
[542]
|
Lokivolteri
Federal Navy Academy
|
Posted - 2008.06.20 15:52:00 -
[543]
Ok thats nice that you have borught to CCP's attention is CCP doing anything about it? didn't think so... |
Hori To
Kinda'Shujaa
|
Posted - 2008.06.20 17:29:00 -
[544]
the election where held, the csm is chosen, you do not get to vote in your rep in the election and vote out mine afterwards! |
Parsival
The Avalon Foundation Delta.Green
|
Posted - 2008.06.20 20:36:00 -
[545]
Originally by: Hori To the election where held, the csm is chosen, you do not get to vote in your rep in the election and vote out mine afterwards!
Try reading the OP and the rest of the thread. This has nothing to do with voting anybody out of the CSM.
|
Shai MaiTsang
|
Posted - 2008.06.21 01:09:00 -
[546]
If Jade isn't fired I'm going to cancel my accounts!
|
Robinete Broadhead
|
Posted - 2008.06.21 14:39:00 -
[547]
Originally by: Shai MaiTsang
If Jade isn't fired I'm going to cancel my accounts!
bYE BYE.... Yes, I am an ALT in a NOOB Corp.
|
Pooka
United Space Aillance USA
|
Posted - 2008.06.21 14:45:00 -
[548]
Is this all because a goon or goon pet isn't ruining..mean running CSM?
PROMISES MADE PROMISES KEPT BRING THE BRIGHT STAR BACK!!!
|
Alexi Kalashnikov
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.21 16:02:00 -
[549]
Originally by: Pooka
Is this all because a goon or goon pet isn't ruining..mean running CSM?
If this were the case, 1. This would have been started by a goon. 2. This would have been started immediately after the election results came out.
Since this is not the case, 1. This thread was started by a non-goon. 2. This thread has well over half of it's supporters as non-goon. 3. Jade has gone back on his words, overstepped his authority and has openly attacked another CSMs character in interviews and here in this very thread.
CCP needs to step in and quell this. As the general eve population is asking for Jade to step down as CSM Chairman, NOT AS A CSM REP (let's make thsi clear), it would be in good cause for Jade to follow the wishes of the general EVE population.
|
Shintogo Kunimitsu
|
Posted - 2008.06.22 20:46:00 -
[550]
|
|
Hori To
Kinda'Shujaa
|
Posted - 2008.06.23 01:01:00 -
[551]
Originally by: Parsival
Originally by: Hori To the election where held, the csm is chosen, you do not get to vote in your rep in the election and vote out mine afterwards!
Try reading the OP and the rest of the thread. This has nothing to do with voting anybody out of the CSM.
actually it does, Jade won the election, the rules say he gets the chair.
sorry if I was a bit less then accurate in my quoted post. |
Ramblin Man
Empyreum
|
Posted - 2008.06.23 02:05:00 -
[552]
After reading the log and thinking: No.
Real politics are messy. You asked for transparency, now put on your big-captain pants and deal with what it looks like when two people disagree. You're seeing the world through rose-colored glasses if you think there's any difference between the arguments in the CSM and the billions of arguments to occur between elected officials over the course of human history.
Our elected officials are still talking to each other, and they haven't yet started malevolently grinding votes to a halt out of sheer bitterness towards each other. By that single metric I am inclined to throw my weight behind their continued progress, until such time as they fail to surpass that (low) standard or the next election occurs.
have love, willing to give it industrially .CCPGinger |
Vaermina Valessara
Dark Day Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.06.23 11:59:00 -
[553]
Out the door... |
Deviana Sevidon
Panta-Rhei
|
Posted - 2008.06.23 17:24:00 -
[554]
Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 23/06/2008 17:27:22 Not supported.
I think it is the vengeance of a small group of people that could not have their way (or their candidate as a chairmember) and now they try to ruin the whole CSM thing.
EDIT: I am just noticing I am wholeheartly agreeing with BoB Members. Goons, what have you done too me with your Threadnaught?
|
K'veer
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.24 12:38:00 -
[555]
Supported.
|
Setana Manoro
Firefly Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.06.24 14:42:00 -
[556]
Originally by: Anton Marvik Edited by: Anton Marvik on 09/06/2008 19:55:43
The Random People of the Assembly Hall,
Recognising the Chairperson's responsibilities are crucial to the effectiveness of the CSM,
Noting Further these responsibilities include unbiased judgment, maturity, and professionalism,
Deeply disturbed by the actions of the current chair, Jade Constantine, in CSM Meeting Three and during the time since, including editorializing at the time of the meeting, and muting an elected CSM representative who spoke out against said editorializing,
Further deploring Jade Constantine's failure to take responsibility for said failures as Chairperson, as well as his threatening of further immature and reprehensible actions,
Desiring a successful and effective CSM,
1. Calls upon the CSM to undertake an immediate vote for the removal of Jade Constantine from Chair;
2. Further invites the CSM to duly elect a new Chairperson;
3. Regrets the necessity of these actions;
4. Further reminds the CSM representatives that they are responsible to the entirety of the EVE playerbase to make the CSM a success;
5. Expresses its hope that the CSM will be more successful in the future.
Yeah. I have too much free time. Aside from the manner in which it is written I think it speaks for itself. The thread for CSM Meeting 3, with relevant Jadeisms, can be found here - http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=788122&page=5
If Jade can't take responsibility for her actions, there is no hope that she will avoid those actions in the future, especially as Jade has threatened to be even MORE childish in her future.
Originally by: Jade Constantine The lesson learned from that last meeting is for the Chair to be firmer, sooner, and take a much more vigorous hand in preventing unrecognized interruptions from the representatives
Jade later responded to criticism about his actions with the following gems,
Originally by: Jade Constantine
What is it with the damned hippy-flower-child-politically-correct mumbo jumbo being spoken on these forums today?
99% of the bad feeling comes from people who for one reason or other have decided they want the CSM to fail.
If Jade cannot accept responsibility for his actions, let alone realize why they were wrong in the first place, she is not a sound Chairperson. Period.
Tl;dr The Chair is CRUCIAL, there is limited time for the CSM to get their job done, Jade is a failure as the Chair, needs to be replaced ASAP.
No ... just because your picture looks funny.
|
Yuki Santara
Yurai-Tenshin Zaibatsu Celestial Imperative
|
Posted - 2008.06.24 14:57:00 -
[557]
Originally by: Alexi Kalashnikov
Originally by: Pooka
Is this all because a goon or goon pet isn't ruining..mean running CSM?
If this were the case, 1. This would have been started by a goon. 2. This would have been started immediately after the election results came out.
Since this is not the case, 1. This thread was started by a non-goon. 2. This thread has well over half of it's supporters as non-goon. 3. Jade has gone back on his words, overstepped his authority and has openly attacked another CSMs character in interviews and here in this very thread.
CCP needs to step in and quell this. As the general eve population is asking for Jade to step down as CSM Chairman, NOT AS A CSM REP (let's make thsi clear), it would be in good cause for Jade to follow the wishes of the general EVE population.
Another step towards democracy, now we got our own spin doctors.
|
Anton Marvik
AnTi. Atrocitas
|
Posted - 2008.06.24 15:14:00 -
[558]
Originally by: Setana Manoro
No ... just because your picture looks funny.
No one knows what its like To be the bad man To be the sad man Behind a funny looking picture
Originally by: Yuki Santara
Another step towards democracy, now we got our own spin doctors.
I don't think you understand the definition of 'spin'.
|
Zulimu
Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2008.06.24 15:50:00 -
[559]
/signed
|
Eddie Gordo
Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2008.06.24 16:38:00 -
[560]
Not signed.
Now Recruiting |
|
Lord Eremet
|
Posted - 2008.06.26 12:00:00 -
[561]
Not signed. After reading it all I can only say one thing about this thread: Ridiculous.
|
Astria Tiphareth
|
Posted - 2008.06.26 12:09:00 -
[562]
Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 26/06/2008 12:09:10 I look forward to seeing this thread continue after the 6 months are up and Jade and the other CSM members are replaced by the new lot - because people can and will be that stupid. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
Abrazzar
|
Posted - 2008.06.26 12:32:00 -
[563]
Actually Jade has been removed from chair. They decided on rotating the chair position, so Jade isn't the permanent chair anymore.
Congratulations.
You have won. -------- Ideas for: Mining
|
Kretin Arnon
Path of the Immortals
|
Posted - 2008.06.26 12:49:00 -
[564]
Originally by: Abrazzar Actually Jade has been removed from chair. They decided on rotating the chair position, so Jade isn't the permanent chair anymore.
Congratulations.
You have won.
Is there any price?
Besides funny hats? +--------------------------+ For now I sleep and watch |
Sariyah
HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded
|
Posted - 2008.06.26 12:54:00 -
[565]
.
|
SickSeven
|
Posted - 2008.06.26 13:37:00 -
[566]
Edited by: SickSeven on 26/06/2008 13:36:48 I support this for the simple fact that the Chair engages in childish banter with his critics.
You dont see real world people of power posting videos on youtube to call their critics names and liars.(not that this has happend with the CSM... yet)
|
Jade Constantine
|
Posted - 2008.06.26 16:16:00 -
[567]
Originally by: SickSeven Edited by: SickSeven on 26/06/2008 13:36:48 I support this for the simple fact that the Chair engages in childish banter with his critics.
You dont see real world people of power posting videos on youtube to call their critics names and liars.(not that this has happend with the CSM... yet)
Well here's one
This ones even better
This one is epic
Slap across the face
We could certainly go on ...
But anyways here's the bottom line. CCP recognize that the CSM delegates represent different interest groups from the community and its our role to best represent our constituencies. We had an excellent historical lecture on the roots of Icelandic democracy during the CSM conference and heard ourselves described as "internet chieftains" responsible for thrashing out laws and policies in open and passionate debate.
This is raw democracy and plain-speaking and its very far away from the sanitized image-politics of idealized process that some on this thread have lamented the lack off.
We had a superb conference in Iceland and each of the CSM delegates did an excellent job in representing their constituencies and supporters and cooperating in addressing critical issues to the game at this time. At the close of business I asked my fellow CSM reps if they'd be happy to see me continue as Chair till the end of the first session of the CSM and got their full support.
So thats the deal really. Anybody who didn't like the way I've handled the chair position this time around is welcome to stand at the next CSM in the winter and who knows, get the support, promote your message, appeal to the voters and get elected and you'll get a chance to show us all how its done.
Until then lets get back to business.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
ErrhuhBlaman
|
Posted - 2008.06.27 20:01:00 -
[568]
no support
|
Aloriana Jacques
Amarr Royal Amarr Institute
|
Posted - 2008.06.28 05:00:00 -
[569]
I do not support this idea. Though Jade may have acted hastily in the events in question, this does not mean he should be removed from his post for it.
Was it rude? Yes, but not unreasonable.
Jade was elected like everyone else and should, and undoubtedly will, continue leading the CSM until the end of his term.
Simply put, if you don't like Jade when the time comes and Jade decides to run again, don't re-elect him. - - - Aloriana Jacques - Skill Sheet
|
Nikita Alterana
Executive Outcomes
|
Posted - 2008.06.28 05:36:00 -
[570]
__________________________________________________ |
|
General StarScream
Gallente Empyrean Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.06.30 08:08:00 -
[571]
I voted Jade, SO GOOO JADE. your doing a good job, taking on all of eve voices not just the fourm turds. |
EliteSlave
M. Corp Mostly Harmless
|
Posted - 2008.07.01 00:38:00 -
[572]
Kick Jade Out!
|
Kingwood
Ministry of War
|
Posted - 2008.07.01 01:49:00 -
[573]
Luckily I don't play Eve anymore. Gets a hearty chuckle and my support though. Go Eve! |
EliteSlave
Minmatar M. Corp Mostly Harmless
|
Posted - 2008.07.01 17:49:00 -
[574]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: SickSeven Edited by: SickSeven on 26/06/2008 13:36:48 I support this for the simple fact that the Chair engages in childish banter with his critics.
You dont see real world people of power posting videos on youtube to call their critics names and liars.(not that this has happend with the CSM... yet)
Well here's one
This ones even better
This one is epic
Slap across the face
We could certainly go on ...
But anyways here's the bottom line. CCP recognize that the CSM delegates represent different interest groups from the community and its our role to best represent our constituencies. We had an excellent historical lecture on the roots of Icelandic democracy during the CSM conference and heard ourselves described as "internet chieftains" responsible for thrashing out laws and policies in open and passionate debate.
This is raw democracy and plain-speaking and its very far away from the sanitized image-politics of idealized process that some on this thread have lamented the lack off.
We had a superb conference in Iceland and each of the CSM delegates did an excellent job in representing their constituencies and supporters and cooperating in addressing critical issues to the game at this time. At the close of business I asked my fellow CSM reps if they'd be happy to see me continue as Chair till the end of the first session of the CSM and got their full support.
So thats the deal really. Anybody who didn't like the way I've handled the chair position this time around is welcome to stand at the next CSM in the winter and who knows, get the support, promote your message, appeal to the voters and get elected and you'll get a chance to show us all how its done.
Until then lets get back to business.
Wrong, this is not democracy.. this is more of a Republic...
Democracy is, Votes by the people for the people ( not selected few making the votes..)
Republic is, Votes by selected people of the people
|
Nitalya
Amarr Das Reich.
|
Posted - 2008.07.02 18:35:00 -
[575]
i vote to remove jade from his/her spot on CSM
|
Lord Frost
Minmatar Federal Defence Union
|
Posted - 2008.07.02 18:42:00 -
[576]
I vote to remove Jade.
|
Kelsin
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.07.02 19:06:00 -
[577]
Originally by: Nitalya i vote to remove jade from his/her spot on CSM
You forgot to check the box.
Just sayin'.
|
Drykor
Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.07.02 19:24:00 -
[578]
Vote against removing Jade, just to balance out the id... people that are personally insulted for a wardec and don't even understand what this thread is about.
|
Jade Constantine
|
Posted - 2008.07.02 19:39:00 -
[579]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 02/07/2008 19:41:41
I predict that in November (when I step down from CSM chair at the time of the next election) this thread will have 900 supports and I suspect I could run perma-run my nano-cerb's mwd on power derived from the emo tears expressed by the posters here
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
BillyBong2
Amarr Imperativa
|
Posted - 2008.07.02 20:07:00 -
[580]
If I could vote against the idea I would, but I am typing it out here.
I am voting against the removal of Jade.
|
|
Kovid
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.07.02 20:38:00 -
[581]
Originally by: Tecam Hund No support.
I mean no offense to CSM representatives, but judging from the chat logs it is my opinion that without Jade CSM would stall on take off.
This or go down the drain.
Thumbs down.
Yawn.
|
Ayrianna Nagaya
|
Posted - 2008.07.02 22:06:00 -
[582]
I vote for the removal of Jade.
The recent exploits by SF to try to crap all over FW and deccing only certain Militia corps tells me he is not a good representative of the community.
His arguments are drivel of words as he tries to confuse you with obscure terms that have no relevance to the discussion.
He doesn't listen to anyone that has an opposing view. He just dismisses them as everyone else is wrong and he is righteous and right.
This is unacceptable.
|
Dianabolic
Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.07.02 22:07:00 -
[583]
In a position such as Chair of a comittee you can hardly please everybody even some of the time.
So, if everybody hates you I'd wager you're doing as good a job as can be expected.
As a result I LOL at this thread, especially as the person who brought it up isn't even on the CSM, the members of which should surely feel far more aggrieved and, if they truely DO believe that changing the chair is the right course of action, are pretty remiss in their failure to do so without prompting from the forums. Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
|
Massao
Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.07.02 22:09:00 -
[584]
Originally by: Ayrianna Na***a He doesn't listen to anyone that has an opposing view. He just dismisses them as everyone else is wrong and he is righteous and right.
In my experience Jade does two things:
1 - Talks / types alot. 2 - Listens and debates based on the facts as presented.
But thank god SOMEONE has an opinion, hell, where would we be without people who were righteous?
|
Jade Constantine
|
Posted - 2008.07.02 22:24:00 -
[585]
Originally by: Ayrianna Na***a I vote for the removal of Jade. The recent exploits by SF to try to crap all over FW and deccing only certain Militia corps tells me he is not a good representative of the community.
Some facts to rain on your parade:
a) you are the kind of person to scream "exploit" (on an alt) when you've been wardecced by another participant in an open pvp game.
Quote: His arguments are drivel of words as he tries to confuse you with obscure terms that have no relevance to the discussion.
b) you are the kind of person that never responds to an argument with logic and merely twists and turns and makes insults of your own.
Quote: He doesn't listen to anyone that has an opposing view. He just dismisses them as everyone else is wrong and he is righteous and right.
c) you are the kind of person that gets upset when I don't afford you the status of other posters that register opinions with their main accounts and keep their temper under control in the course of debates.
Quote: This is unacceptable.
No "ayrianna na***a" YOU are unacceptable and your arguments are poor. Feel free to a) cry me a river and b) vote for somebody else in the next election.
Because if I wasn't opposed by people like you I wouldn't be doing my job.
And thats the truth of it.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Jade Constantine
|
Posted - 2008.07.02 22:26:00 -
[586]
Originally by: Dianabolic In a position such as Chair of a comittee you can hardly please everybody even some of the time.
So, if everybody hates you I'd wager you're doing as good a job as can be expected.
As a result I LOL at this thread, especially as the person who brought it up isn't even on the CSM, the members of which should surely feel far more aggrieved and, if they truely DO believe that changing the chair is the right course of action, are pretty remiss in their failure to do so without prompting from the forums.
True words there Dianabolic. I was always going to annoy some people with a pro small unit pvp agenda in these elections
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Kame Malice
Minmatar Mitsukashi Holdings Limited
|
Posted - 2008.07.02 22:33:00 -
[587]
Jade = George Constantine = Bush
Do the math. be smarter than the US, impeach him now. This is a signature, not some random addition to my reply. |
ThePaper
|
Posted - 2008.07.03 03:59:00 -
[588]
u have my vote :)
|
XoPhyte
Gallente Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.07.03 04:23:00 -
[589]
Edited by: XoPhyte on 03/07/2008 04:26:21 I can't believe we are all reading the same thing...
[ 2008.06.08 18:30:27 ] Jade Constantine > 1st is issue is = can a candidate walk back in a meeting in process that has empowered an alternate and immediately dislodges the alternate and regains his position? [ 2008.06.08 18:30:40 ]Hardin > great phrasing their Jade [ 2008.06.08 18:30:43 ] Darius JOHNSON > That's a misleading way of framing it [ 2008.06.08 18:30:47 ] Inanna Zuni > Issue of proxies is not on the table [ 2008.06.08 18:30:51 ] Jade Constantine > rephrase it please Hardin [ 2008.06.08 18:30:59 ] Jade Constantine > and we'll vote on your phrasing [ 2008.06.08 18:31:02 ] Jade Constantine > go [ 2008.06.08 18:31:11 ] Inanna Zuni > Yes, biased statement there by Chair .. [ 2008.06.08 18:31:29 ] Hardin > 1st issue is can the elected candidate return to a meeting and regain voting rights when the debate moves on to the next item on the agenda [ 2008.06.08 18:31:46 ] Serenity Steele > I vote NO. [ 2008.06.08 18:31:49 ] Bane Glorious > aye [ 2008.06.08 18:31:51 ] Jade Constantine > I vote no [ 2008.06.08 18:31:52 ] Ankhesentapemkah > Nay. [ 2008.06.08 18:31:56 ] Hardin > Aye [ 2008.06.08 18:31:57 ] Darius JOHNSON > yes [ 2008.06.08 18:32:02 ] Inanna Zuni > Aye [ 2008.06.08 18:32:05 ] Dierdra Vaal > vote against (at least until the issue of alternate terms has been solved) [ 2008.06.08 18:32:07 ] LaVista Vista > Aye [ 2008.06.08 18:32:16 ] Jade Constantine > okay its carried [ 2008.06.08 18:32:30 ] Hardin > Thank you [ 2008.06.08 18:33:05 ] Jade Constantine > alternates can be removed from CSM rep voting status at any time by a candidate arriving at the meeting [ 2008.06.08 18:33:08 ] Jade Constantine > next part [ 2008.06.08 18:33:15 ] Ankhesentapemkah > Nay [ 2008.06.08 18:33:16 ] Inanna Zuni > Jade! [ 2008.06.08 18:33:22 ] Inanna Zuni > please do not editorialize a decision
So let me get this straight..
1) An issue if a member can return and replace his alternate comes to vote. 2) Darius and Inanna don't like the "wording" of the statement. 3) Jade asks Hardin to rephrase it. 4) Hardin rephrases it in a straight forward sensible manner. 5) They vote that a member CAN come back and regain voting rights. 6) Jade says that the vote passes, and those members CAN come back and regain voting rights. 7) Inanna asks to Jade not "editorialize" the vote. 8) Some back and forth conversation goes on and Inanna gets a temporary ban.
Now I agree that the ban is a bit excessive imho, and not something that I would have done myself. But honestly we are arguing about the wording of a vote. I would prefer less drama from the CSM members over something as stupid as the wording of this fairly unimportant vote. LetÆs focus on the important things, improving the overall game, making the experience for all players better as a whole, and give up the ridiculous back and forth that has commenced over the last couple of weeks regarding the wording of a vote.
It's the chairs job to insure that meetings move forward in a timely manner and that all issues are addressed. While you may not like the wording of a particular sentence I would ask that you grow up, get over it and vote on the issue. We don't care about the minutes of every meeting, but we do care about the end result and the votes on the issues. Spending time going over the ridiculousness of a few words is a waste of everyones time and defeats the overall goal of the comitte, and also detracts from where we want the CSM's attention to be focused, on the important issues. There are plenty of real issues to argue about, take your pick, but leave the drama over "wording" behind please.
|
Steel Tigeress
Steel-Wolfs
|
Posted - 2008.07.03 05:53:00 -
[590]
I disagree with Jade in the large debate in the the general forums concerning FW, and think he, and Star Fraction are just promoting their own agenda... And not whats best for the game in general.
Just because somthing is within the rules, does not always meen its within the games best interests. Heck the CSMs were elected to fix problems that are in the game, not exploit the loopholes for their own enjoyment....
For a verry basic Cliffnotes:
Jand and Friends: There is no problem war deccing corps that are members of factional warfare, its an allowed mechanic.
Best argument against: Its unfair currently because FW_CorpA being war decced byr Reg_CorpB cannot enter the space of the opposing faction, giving Reg_CorpB a safe haven from the war. While Reg_CorpB can travel anywhere because they did not sign up for FW.
Jade fails to see the Imbalance and has tried shouting down anyone who opposes, just like in this thread. And in case anyone is wondering why... Because Jades alliance Star Fraction is the alliance that is war deccing bits and pieces of the Caldari Militia.
I support removing Jade as chairman, And no I'm no goon, I generally find their tactics deplorable and sometimes even low... but much as I hate to admit it I agree with them whole heartedly here. Check corp history, myself and my Other account Steel-W0LF (with a zero) have been in most of the anti goon alliances.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=809992&page=3#88 linked to where Jade first posted.
|
|
Inertial
The Python Cartel
|
Posted - 2008.07.03 07:24:00 -
[591]
Originally by: EliteSlave
Wrong, this is not democracy.. this is more of a Republic...
Democracy is, Votes by the people for the people ( not selected few making the votes..)
Republic is, Votes by selected people of the people
Wrong, a republic is a country where the ruler/head of state/leader isn't a hereditary monarch. It doesn't need to be a democracy, it can be a oligarchy, like Chartage, but is generally ruled by a portion of the people.
Norway, f.eks. is a Constitutional Monarchy, so the King is the Head of State, but there is government and parliment chosen by the people that rules for the king, or something like that.
Democracy, meaning "peoples rule" come in different flavours.
Direct Democracy: The people vote for all the cases concerning the entity they live in. So if a new tax on cars would be up for vote, all the Joes and Sallys would vote yay or nay.
Representative Democracy: The people vote for representatives to vote for them on cases concerning the governing of their nation/state/country.
If the CSM thing was a direct democracy, then we would be voting on the issues, not the CSM delegates. This is however a representative democracy... who knows why, but it is.
we are recruiting!
|
Meau
|
Posted - 2008.07.03 09:20:00 -
[592]
Edited by: Meau on 03/07/2008 09:20:55
Originally by: XoPhyte
Now I agree that the ban is a bit excessive imho, and not something that I would have done myself. But honestly we are arguing about the wording of a vote. I would prefer less drama from the CSM members over something as stupid as the wording of this fairly unimportant vote. ...
And lets not forget there was no ban issued. Just a temporary mute:
Quote: [ 2008.06.08 21:36:57 ] EVE System > Inanna Zuni was muted by Jade Constantine., Effective until 2008.06.08 22:06:57, Reason: "till the vote".
Second line, where Jade probably tried to unmute something could have gone wrong, though:
Quote: [ 2008.06.08 21:40:29 ] EVE System > Inanna Zuni was muted by Jade Constantine., Effective until 2008.06.08 21:10:28.
See the timestamps. Could be an unmute, than the message is weird/bugged, could be an outright bug.
When Inanna was complaining she is blocked:
Quote:
[ 2008.06.08 21:47:27 ] Dierdra Vaal > she isnt on the blocked list [ 2008.06.08 21:47:44 ] Dierdra Vaal > not on the muted list either
Looks like a very primitive attempt to trigger some drama and throw a Tantrum by Inanna imho. Inanna: "Oh, i was being muted (starts crying loud and throwing toys around)".
|
Arlenna Molatov
The 59th Parallel
|
Posted - 2008.07.03 09:24:00 -
[593]
FW thread
This is one of the major reasons I wuld vote JAde off the CSM. She is trying to use every excuse in the book to allow his alliance to declar war on FW corps who have signed up with the Caldari Militia.
I won't go into all the detail here since its a long, complicated issue. But when it all comes down to balance, it is CLEAR to see that Jade and SF are taking advantage of loopholes in the FW design and are able to declare war with NO drawbacks for them what-so-ever.
I would encourage anyone who hasnt, if they care about game balance, to read it and draw their own conclusions.
|
Meau
|
Posted - 2008.07.03 09:32:00 -
[594]
Edited by: Meau on 03/07/2008 09:36:58
Originally by: Arlenna Molatov FW thread
This is one of the major reasons I wuld vote JAde off the CSM. She is trying to use every excuse in the book to allow his alliance to declar war on FW corps who have signed up with the Caldari Militia.
I won't go into all the detail here since its a long, complicated issue. But when it all comes down to balance, it is CLEAR to see that Jade and SF are taking advantage of loopholes in the FW design and are able to declare war with NO drawbacks for them what-so-ever.
I would encourage anyone who hasnt, if they care about game balance, to read it and draw their own conclusions.
Oh my, all that drama, without even needing to get into the issue, you call that a loophole:
Exert from the Faction Warfare player guide:
Quote: Enlisted player corporations:
* Can participate in player alliance/corporation wars, whether it is declared by a corporation in the same, allied or opposing faction.
plus
Originally by: CCP Dionysus 2) Yes. They are still normal player corps. They are not technically joining an alliance, and dont gain the "protection" that being in an alliance gives you. You will have to pay normal wardec costs etc though.
Maybe you should look up the definition of a loophole. This is clearly an intended game mechanic, and one of the rules introduced by CCP, thus calling it a loophole is a tad weird, isnt it? The drawbacks are the usual ones for declaring war, and this is apparantly how CCP intended it to be at the moment. Still wanting to shout exploit or any of its synonyms?
|
Arlenna Molatov
Caldari The 59th Parallel
|
Posted - 2008.07.03 10:00:00 -
[595]
Edited by: Arlenna Molatov on 03/07/2008 10:04:42 Edited by: Arlenna Molatov on 03/07/2008 10:03:40 The real issue in that thread, had you bothered to read it is te lack of ability to engage anyone shooting other militia members. All other militia members can do is sit there and watch. Geeze, that sounds like its balanced, doesn;t it.
I could give a bloody damn what you think to be quite honest....I care about the people actually doing FW and consider it a very large game imbalance. I dont care bout you, so you can go back to your hole now. You're dismissed.
PS- you want any recognition, then post with you main. If not, stfu.
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Monsieur Escargots
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Posted - 2008.07.03 10:05:00 -
[596]
Originally by: Meau Maybe you should look up the definition of a loophole. Wardecing FW corps is clearly an intended game mechanic, and one of the rules introduced by CCP, thus calling it a loophole is a tad weird, isnt it? The drawbacks are the usual ones for declaring war, and this is apparantly how CCP intended it to be at the moment. Still wanting to shout exploit or any of its synonyms?
So by your estimation, the recent "game mechanic" that allowed Ivy League to become basically immune to any war dec is also how CCP intended it to be?
Don't be so naive. In a game this complex, there are many loopholes that can be exploited to make the game more beneficial for yourself.
In this case, a corp/ alliance who can make a war dec and have an entire area of space where they are immune from reprisals is clearly not an intended use of the war dec mechanic. |
Hubrub
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Posted - 2008.07.03 11:00:00 -
[597]
Wow, talk about Ego.
Jade has to go.
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Damion Zyne
Des Esseintes Social Club
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Posted - 2008.07.03 11:14:00 -
[598]
Originally by: Arlenna Molatov FW thread
This is one of the major reasons I wuld vote JAde off the CSM. She is trying to use every excuse in the book to allow his alliance to declar war on FW corps who have signed up with the Caldari Militia.
I won't go into all the detail here since its a long, complicated issue. But when it all comes down to balance, it is CLEAR to see that Jade and SF are taking advantage of loopholes in the FW design and are able to declare war with NO drawbacks for them what-so-ever.
I would encourage anyone who hasnt, if they care about game balance, to read it and draw their own conclusions.
I just cant see what ingame action, that is perfectly within the rules of the game, has anything to do with chairing the CSM. Forcing him, which is extremly unlikely to happen, out of the CSM wont change his action / views ingame at all. So what about you go elsewhere with your "exploit" fake drame.
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Roger Welco
Caldari WhiteGlaze Interstellar Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.03 12:43:00 -
[599]
wow this is cool. After reading though 'most' of this post I can see that CCP idea of a player committee has worked a treat.. you all acting like real life committee members/politicians!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.07.03 13:49:00 -
[600]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 03/07/2008 13:53:57
The irony is that while the CSM members themselves have met, had a damned successful face to face meeting that ended in a very positive NYT article that got us praised as approaching the business in a professional and diligent manner. This thread still keeps on sucking in a collection of bottom-feeders trying to make some kind of mileage on their personal vendettas and angst.
This Caldari FW thing is a case in point. Having discussed the issue on the thread in question and challenged the Caldari FW members to post an ISSUE thread with their proposed solutions only one actually did that "nVChicky". The rest (including the worst of the people posting immediately above) decided that their arguments were too weak to actually make a proposal and they preferred to keep whining and making false "exploit" accusations in the face of clearly presented evidence to the contrary.
I said in the other thread and I'll say it here. I consider it a personal triumph that people who hate non-consensual pvp and loathe very notion of the empire war-dec mechanic want me removed from the CSM. It validates the manifesto I stood for, it emboldens the vision I have for the game and it convinces me it was right to stand and serve on this committee just to confront and neutralize the kind of whiny poltroon's who would make Eve into an instanced WOW arena game if they got their way.
I dine out on the emo tears of those posters above me crying about how membership of the Caldari Militia hasn't protected them from empire wardecs. I laugh at their weakness and cowardly lack of backbone and its my pleasure to blow up their ships in-game. I ran for CSM on an election platform of pro-pvp opportunity and dynamism and it would be the height of hypocrisy for me not to be a fan of small unit pvp in game.
Eve as dark universe and its a hard environment for people used to 100% safety and instanced pvp in controlled environments. But thats the soul of Eve, the beauty and the allure of the game is in player vs player strife and consequence for actions and the day that corporations can make themselves totally safe in empire from wardecs is the day this game begins to die. I stand utterly opposed to the notion that Arlenna Molatov, Steel Tigeress, Ayrianna Na***a, Nitalya and Lord Frost can declare their corporations for a Militia and will no longer have to be vulnerable to the corporation wardec mechanic. I am utterly opposed to the notion that anybody wardeccing them will be faced by faction npc response, and I am utterly opposed to the principle that carping whines and mewling complaints on the forums will get these people more safety for their in-game corporations.
Hard words? People might condemn me for standing on the CSM and having strong opinions. But thats ridiculous. I got elected because of strong opinions and its my responsible to keep on expressing them and ensuring that the people who read my election manifesto and trusted me to promote the kind of Eve Online I described there has a place in the future we are helping to build.
So Caldari Militia. How about facing up to your real ISSUEs and learning how to deal with wardecs with spaceships in space and small unit pvp? You have an opportunity to play this game now. You joined a thing called Faction Warfare and its time for you to prove that you know what the second word actually means. Enough of this ridiculous forum whining and more action in space. If you do have an actual assembly hall issue you want to express be my guest - make a thread, lets see how the debate goes. But if you decide instead to keep on whinging and trying to personalize the issue of game mechanics that are working exactly as they were intended then you are going to work a minor miracle and reduce your reputation even further.
This CSM forum is not a self-help group for butthurt wannabe pvp pretenders who go crying to their mothers when the first time a hostile wardec comes in.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.03 13:57:00 -
[601]
Originally by: Jade Constantine blabla
A few whiny caldari dont really change the reasoning behind the original suggestion.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.07.03 14:09:00 -
[602]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 03/07/2008 14:14:14
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Jade Constantine blabla
A few whiny caldari dont really change the reasoning behind the original suggestion.
Don't get me wrong, I believe the entire thread is full of fail-posters and I'm happy to laugh at anyone foolish enough to click "support" on this issue for the reasons stated. The last few caldari whiners just help to typify the general standard of people posting yes in this thread quite neatly - basically anyone butt-hurt by ANY decision or issue that goes against them gets to shout abuse at the CSM chair in this thread. Its probably the****utic.
-edit. How the hell is the word the****utic filtered? -edit2. gah I see thats ther-apeutic (thats as in ... a consequence of a medical treatment, of any kind, the results of which are judged to be desirable and beneficial.)
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Monsieur Escargots
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Posted - 2008.07.03 14:33:00 -
[603]
Now don't get me wrong, I love what you do and you are a great speaker, but you have to see the inherrant flaw in your own argument.
Why should it be possible for someone to War Dec someone else, and be completely secure in their own area of space?! It was not intended to work this way, and yet, by deccing someone in FW, you are effectivly making it so that you only have to fight when you want to, on your terms, negating them the benefit of ever making any kind or suprise or ambush tactic, and also taking any risk from war time logistic operations. This is what you are saying you want to not happen if they made FW corps immune to decs, which I agree, is not right, nobody should be safe. this is Eve, not Carebears online.
Now I am not saying you will use this tactic. I belive you will sit in low sec systems, in contested space, and tell people to "bring it", but this doesn't mean others won't, and this is where something may need to be done.
I havn't come here with any suggestions or solutions to this problem, only to highlight the fact that if it isn't yet, it may well become a problem that needs to be dealt with, and as the chair of the CSM, it should be your perogative to look at it with an unbias view and present a solution or at least recognise the potential for honest debate. However, with you being the head of the alliance in question, are you truely able to stay unbias?
P.S. Sorry for the spelling/ grammar |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.07.03 16:01:00 -
[604]
Originally by: Monsieur Escargots Why should it be possible for someone to War Dec someone else, and be completely secure in their own area of space?! It was not intended to work this way, and yet, by deccing someone in FW, you are effectivly making it so that you only have to fight when you want to, on your terms, negating them the benefit of ever making any kind or suprise or ambush tactic, and also taking any risk from war time logistic operations. This is what you are saying you want to not happen if they made FW corps immune to decs, which I agree, is not right, nobody should be safe. this is Eve, not Carebears online.
Well lets say I'm a 0.0 alliance. All my logistics, money making, ratting and holdings are out somewhere in deep 0.0 protected by a NAP fest, cyno-jammers, jump-bridges and the rest. If I wardec x target in empire then my pvpers are going to go after those guys while all my logistics and money-making remain safe in deep home ground 0.0. Its very much the same issue. And end of the day, is spinning through hisec Gallente space any more dangerous for the Caldari FW militia then taking a tour through Delve would be. I don't think so.
Quote: Now I am not saying you will use this tactic. I belive you will sit in low sec systems, in contested space, and tell people to "bring it", but this doesn't mean others won't, and this is where something may need to be done.
Well we're actually sitting in their hisec systems saying "bring it" as well as contested lowsec systems. But the point is the Militia is a tool they can use in one way "get lots of free wardecs against enemy militias" or "join as an individual to be protected from wardecs" or they could just as easily pull the corp out of the militia and go hunting wherever they wish. They have complete flexibility of response and countermeasure. Sure others could conceivably wardec a Caldari Militia member corp and then sit in Gallente hisec and do nothing, but that costs a wardec fee to no good ends. The onus is on the declarer to do something with the war end of the day or they end up paying for nothing.
Quote: I havn't come here with any suggestions or solutions to this problem, only to highlight the fact that if it isn't yet, it may well become a problem that needs to be dealt with, and as the chair of the CSM, it should be your perogative to look at it with an unbias view and present a solution or at least recognise the potential for honest debate. However, with you being the head of the alliance in question, are you truely able to stay unbias?
Oh absolutely. SF's role in this is relatively minor. I suspect many many organizations will wardec individual militia corp members in the weeks to come because thats eve. Just because a corporation affiliates with a FW militia doesn't mean it stops being a player corp that is responsible for handling the consequences of its actions.
There's also a bit of a confusion over the role of CSM chair in all this:
My responsibility as chair is pretty straightforward:
1. Organize and chair meetings of the CSM, ensure that issues get heard, votes get made, and process gets followed. I do have a responsibility to ensure that other CSM reps get a fair hearing and get to register their decisions on the public record.
My responsibilty as a CSM delegate is pretty straightforward too:
1. Represent the views and interests of my constituency and advocate those Issues I believe will be in the general interest of Eve online.
These are two different things and responsibilities as Chair have no bearing on specific positions on items like the wardec mechanics or faction warfare - as long as I make sure the discussions happen, voting is fair, and results get recorded thats the duty of chair sorted.
As a CSM rep I've got a full right and duty to express the opinions and positions I was elected on. In this case I'm pro pvp combat and player on player consequence in the matter of empire wardecs.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Pithecanthropus
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Posted - 2008.07.03 17:29:00 -
[605]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
This thread still keeps on sucking in a collection of bottom-feeders trying to make some kind of mileage on their personal vendettas and angst.
You have to consider your personal agenda too. You have this preconception of 'Caldari whiners', but truth is you are simply drawing your own conclusions to a debate and not taking anyone else's opinion into account. Just because people want fairness and balance, doesn't give you the right to call them whiners. And for you to sit on that chair and say that, tells all of us you don't belong there. You do NOT have this community as a whole in mind.
Quote: I consider it a personal triumph that people who hate non-consensual pvp and loathe very notion of the empire war-dec mechanic want me removed from the CSM.
That's hardly the case. And shows how self centered and egotistical you are.
Quote: I dine out on the emo tears of those posters above me crying about how membership of the Caldari Militia hasn't protected them from empire wardecs.
I sit and watch how you gain the safety of or Gallente navies while Caldari deals with the drawbacks. Yet you sit in your safe haven calling them carebears.
Quote: I stand utterly opposed to the notion that Arlenna Molatov, Steel Tigeress, Ayrianna Nagaya, Nitalya and Lord Frost can declare their corporations for a Militia and will no longer have to be vulnerable to the corporation wardec mechanic.
I think they are all implying that YOU are invulnerable with YOUR war dec.
Quote: So Caldari Militia. How about facing up to your real ISSUEs and learning how to deal with wardecs with spaceships in space and small unit pvp?
As CSM chair, you have a lot of issues and pigeon holing an entire faction is why you suck at your job. So Star Fraction, why not face up to YOUR real issues and learn to join a militia the intended way. And, Jade... face your issues and learn to see Eve as a whole community and not your personal perception. You have much to learn.
Quote: But if you decide instead to keep on whinging and trying to personalize the issue of game mechanics that are working exactly as they were intended then you are going to work a minor miracle and reduce your reputation even further.
You already have reduced yourself. By all means, keep sinking lower.
Quote: This CSM forum is not a self-help group for butthurt wannabe pvp pretenders who go crying to their mothers when the first time a hostile wardec comes in.
Nice... you just sank lower. Jade, please act professional. You are in a postion of power... act like it. --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man. |
Kame Malice
Minmatar Mitsukashi Holdings Limited
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Posted - 2008.07.03 17:33:00 -
[606]
Originally by: Pithecanthropus
Originally by: Jade Constantine
This thread still keeps on sucking in a collection of bottom-feeders trying to make some kind of mileage on their personal vendettas and angst.
You have to consider your personal agenda too. You have this preconception of 'Caldari whiners', but truth is you are simply drawing your own conclusions to a debate and not taking anyone else's opinion into account. Just because people want fairness and balance, doesn't give you the right to call them whiners. And for you to sit on that chair and say that, tells all of us you don't belong there. You do NOT have this community as a whole in mind.
Quote: I consider it a personal triumph that people who hate non-consensual pvp and loathe very notion of the empire war-dec mechanic want me removed from the CSM.
That's hardly the case. And shows how self centered and egotistical you are.
Quote: I dine out on the emo tears of those posters above me crying about how membership of the Caldari Militia hasn't protected them from empire wardecs.
I sit and watch how you gain the safety of or Gallente navies while Caldari deals with the drawbacks. Yet you sit in your safe haven calling them carebears.
Quote: I stand utterly opposed to the notion that Arlenna Molatov, Steel Tigeress, Ayrianna Nagaya, Nitalya and Lord Frost can declare their corporations for a Militia and will no longer have to be vulnerable to the corporation wardec mechanic.
I think they are all implying that YOU are invulnerable with YOUR war dec.
Quote: So Caldari Militia. How about facing up to your real ISSUEs and learning how to deal with wardecs with spaceships in space and small unit pvp?
As CSM chair, you have a lot of issues and pigeon holing an entire faction is why you suck at your job. So Star Fraction, why not face up to YOUR real issues and learn to join a militia the intended way. And, Jade... face your issues and learn to see Eve as a whole community and not your personal perception. You have much to learn.
Quote: But if you decide instead to keep on whinging and trying to personalize the issue of game mechanics that are working exactly as they were intended then you are going to work a minor miracle and reduce your reputation even further.
You already have reduced yourself. By all means, keep sinking lower.
Quote: This CSM forum is not a self-help group for butthurt wannabe pvp pretenders who go crying to their mothers when the first time a hostile wardec comes in.
Nice... you just sank lower. Jade, please act professional. You are in a postion of power... act like it.
Amazing argument... but you know that jade wont reply to you specificaly for that reason. This is a signature, not some random addition to my reply. |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.07.03 17:39:00 -
[607]
Originally by: Pithecanthropus I sit and watch how you gain the safety of or Gallente navies while Caldari deals with the drawbacks. Yet you sit in your safe haven calling them carebears.
I'll stop you there. We're in Nouv, thats Caldari Hisec. Where incidently our wardec targets in the Caldari Militia live. Perhaps you are "watching" somebody else entirely? In any case that basic failure to address in-game reality and post truthfully on the forums does rather neatly summarize the rest of your post. I suggest you stop "watching" (the wrong people) and get into your space ship and fight the wardec you are complaining about rather than spamming the forums with your erroneous complaints about a game mechanic that people have repeatedly indicated is operating precisely as intended.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Kame Malice
Minmatar Mitsukashi Holdings Limited
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Posted - 2008.07.03 17:57:00 -
[608]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Pithecanthropus I sit and watch how you gain the safety of or Gallente navies while Caldari deals with the drawbacks. Yet you sit in your safe haven calling them carebears.
I'll stop you there. We're in Nouv, thats Caldari Hisec. Where incidently our wardec targets in the Caldari Militia live. Perhaps you are "watching" somebody else entirely? In any case that basic failure to address in-game reality and post truthfully on the forums does rather neatly summarize the rest of your post. I suggest you stop "watching" (the wrong people) and get into your space ship and fight the wardec you are complaining about rather than spamming the forums with your erroneous complaints about a game mechanic that people have repeatedly indicated is operating precisely as intended.
So... uh... what's your responce to the rest of his allegations? This is a signature, not some random addition to my reply. |
Pithecanthropus
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Posted - 2008.07.03 17:59:00 -
[609]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Pithecanthropus I sit and watch how you gain the safety of or Gallente navies while Caldari deals with the drawbacks. Yet you sit in your safe haven calling them carebears.
I'll stop you there. We're in Nouv, thats Caldari Hisec. Where incidently our wardec targets in the Caldari Militia live. Perhaps you are "watching" somebody else entirely? In any case that basic failure to address in-game reality and post truthfully on the forums does rather neatly summarize the rest of your post. I suggest you stop "watching" (the wrong people) and get into your space ship and fight the wardec you are complaining about rather than spamming the forums with your erroneous complaints about a game mechanic that people have repeatedly indicated is operating precisely as intended.
First off... just cuz you may not be in Gallente space (rather you lie about it) doesn't mean others won't abuse the power.
Second, ummm... yes, operating as its intended... that doesn't mean everything CCP intended to do was precisely correct. Now does it? Seems you want alliances to have a role in FW. I don't see a problem... since its 'operating precisely as intended', yet you whine. So why is your whine more important than the other whine?
You are way up on your soapbox trying to push for your agenda. --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man. |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.07.03 18:09:00 -
[610]
Originally by: Kame Malice So... uh... what's your responce to the rest of his allegations?
Groundless and false. Without merit. Just like your post in fact
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
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Kame Malice
Minmatar Mitsukashi Holdings Limited
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Posted - 2008.07.03 18:10:00 -
[611]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Kame Malice So... uh... what's your responce to the rest of his allegations?
Groundless and false. Without merit. Just like your post in fact
thank you for your mature and constructive responce. :) This is a signature, not some random addition to my reply. |
Steel Tigeress
Gallente Steel-Wolfs
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Posted - 2008.07.03 18:14:00 -
[612]
Originally by: Jade There's also a bit of a confusion over the role of CSM chair in all this:
My responsibility as chair is pretty straightforward:
1. Organize and chair meetings of the CSM, ensure that issues get heard, votes get made, and process gets followed. I do have a responsibility to ensure that other CSM reps get a fair hearing and get to register their decisions on the public record.
Which is where you fail. As soon as anyone disagree's with you, you lose it and start enforcing your point of view. this thread and the FW one are prime examples. Instead of looking at the issue and sseeing there is the posibility of unbalance and abbuse, you shout down the opposition because it affects you and yours.
A professional leader would look into matters regardless of their personal feelings on the issue: You fail in this, so are unfit for leadership.
Originally by: Jade My responsibilty as a CSM delegate is pretty straightforward too:
1. Represent the views and interests of my constituency and advocate those Issues I believe will be in the general interest of Eve online.
Except for that right now it appears that the issues your constituency are interested in is fixing FW, and removing you from your seat. Oh wait that cant be right, that doesnt agree with the voices in your head, so when an issue is raised that has garnered as much support as this one, it should be laughed off and insulted because it doesnt agree with you. I pity what your going to go through when CCP gets tired of the elected chair laughing at and insulting its playerbase, and ignoring the issues brought forth and supported on this board.
For once you should do the respectable thing and realize that if your actions and beliefs stir up this much controversy, perhaps you arnt suited for the juob, and leave on your own. But that wont happen regardless of the fact that well over 200 votes of support want the issue of your removal raised.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.07.03 18:55:00 -
[613]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 03/07/2008 18:58:06
Originally by: Steel Tigeress Which is where you fail. As soon as anyone disagree's with you, you lose it and start enforcing your point of view. this thread and the FW one are prime examples. Instead of looking at the issue and sseeing there is the posibility of unbalance and abbuse, you shout down the opposition because it affects you and yours.
No Tigeress. I have robustly argued a point and dealt with your false accusations of "exploits" "griefing" and "broken mechanics". You have been crying 'sploit like a spoiled child because you have become the victim on an empire wardec. Many others have pointed out that you are wrong. Undeterred you continue to allege exploits and griefing because you feel your own gameplay has been hindered by a hisec wardec. What you wanted was for somebody in a position of some kind of authority to agree with you. Instead you have been challenged to back up your points and present factual argument. You have failed on all accounts and now fall back on the tried and trusted route of alleging bias and misbehavior.
Quote: A professional leader would look into matters regardless of their personal feelings on the issue: You fail in this, so are unfit for leadership.
A professional leader looks into the facts before they listen to the sensualist cries of "haxx and exploit". You have directly lied about many things in the course of this discussion Tigress. Either these are intentional lies or lies from simple incompetence. In any case your arguments are damaged by your inability to debate matters without descending into falsehood and sensationalist slander.
Quote: Except for that right now it appears that the issues your constituency are interested in is fixing FW, and removing you from your seat. Oh wait that cant be right, that doesnt agree with the voices in your head, so when an issue is raised that has garnered as much support as this one, it should be laughed off and insulted because it doesnt agree with you. I pity what your going to go through when CCP gets tired of the elected chair laughing at and insulting its playerbase, and ignoring the issues brought forth and supported on this board.
I challenged you to put an Issue thread into public debate. Why don't you do it? When you get 200 supports in favour of nerfing Empire wars lets talk.
Quote: For once you should do the respectable thing and realize that if your actions and beliefs stir up this much controversy, perhaps you arnt suited for the juob, and leave on your own. But that wont happen regardless of the fact that well over 200 votes of support want the issue of your removal raised.
Thats because these 200 votes come about around 60 people who got butt-hurt for various reasons into trying to undo the result of a democratic electoral process, thus far it has received no support from a CSM member and consequentially hasn't been brought to our formal attention. Quite properly the 2400 votes I received in the election are considerably more relevant in the grand scheme of things. So once again, if you want the CSM to sponsor changes you propose in Eve online make an Issue thread and set out your arguments. If they hold water you'll get some good support and a CSM delegate will bring the issue to the council. I'd advise you to have a nice cup of tea first though and clear some of the vitriol from your veins because nobody is convinced by personal attacks mixed with game development objectives.
So, if you actually have something you care about go do this.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Steel Tigeress
Gallente Steel-Wolfs
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Posted - 2008.07.03 19:07:00 -
[614]
Edited by: Steel Tigeress on 03/07/2008 19:15:00 Fine.
Lests assume 1 thing. Lets PRETEND I am involved in Factions at all.
SF wardecs Steel-Wolfs. Fine and dandy, you can shoot at me, I can shoot at you.
Thats all fine, what is not fine is that SF can hunt me anywhere in Empire, while I cannot hunt you. If I was caldari, you could hide in Galente or Min space and I couldnt pursue.
THAT is the imbalance you have been ignoring for 12 pages.
You say thats fair because the FW corp chose to be in FW. Thats correct they did, to fight other people on the opposing team in FW. Its the same way if YOU choose to attack a FW corp, you should no longer be welcome in their space.. You chose to declar the war so its all fair.
Except that would crimp your allinces little jihad and even though the problem is staring you in the face you refuse to see it. The emporer cant be naked, his cloths are just invisible....
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.07.03 19:14:00 -
[615]
Originally by: Steel Tigeress Fine. Thats all fine, what is not fine is that SF can hunt me anywhere in Empire, while I cannot hunt you. If I was caldari, you could hide in Galente or Min space and I couldnt pursue.
I've underlined your falsehood.
You can certainly hunt us. While you are in the militia you will have to keep moving since enemy npc's will hit you sure. Or you could temp drop the miltia and hunt us. Or you could pay mercs to hit us. Or you even shift to the other milita and hit us. Or you could drop your corp and join the militia as individuals. Or you could surrender and ask for terms. There is a world of options and the problem you are expressing is absolutely no different from the problem faced by many eve corporations and alliances that find themselves wardecced by entities with home and income streams based in owned 0.0 space.
If you get wardecced by Band of Brothers are you going to be able to hunt them fleely in Delve? Or are you going to be relentlessly hunted by their patroller drones (players) defending their space.
Really. You are making a big fuss over nothing and claiming you have no options or ability to counterattack when you clearly do.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Steel Tigeress
Gallente Steel-Wolfs
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Posted - 2008.07.03 19:25:00 -
[616]
There is a huge difference between the two. One is an automated defence that will happen anytime, no way around it.
The other can be avoided, has a much slower response time, and most import BoB in 0.0 is being protected by other PLAYERS.
You and SF have the opportunity of protection by NPC's, and that protection is costing you nothing, its a side effect of your enemy being in FW.
Your posts have already been reported, course I dont actually think CCP will do anything. But you were reported for conduct unbecomming a person holding a CCP endorsed position. Even if nothing is done at least they will be aware of the problem....thats you.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.07.03 19:33:00 -
[617]
Originally by: Steel Tigeress There is a huge difference between the two. One is an automated defence that will happen anytime, no way around it. The other can be avoided, has a much slower response time, and most import BoB in 0.0 is being protected by other PLAYERS.
Are you really trying to claim that you'd have more luck moving a Caldari Faction Warfare gang through Delve than you would spinning through a couple of Gallente hisec systems being chased by some faction npc ships that don't even scramble? Seriously.
Quote: You and SF have the opportunity of protection by NPC's, and that protection is costing you nothing, its a side effect of your enemy being in FW.
Well its costing us 100-200m isk a wardec actually. Thats not "nothing" and its considerably more than you pay by being in the Militia and getting free protection from the enemy militia in your hisec.
Quote: Your posts have already been reported, course I dont actually think CCP will do anything. But you were reported for conduct unbecomming a person holding a CCP endorsed position. Even if nothing is done at least they will be aware of the problem....thats you.
Well maybe there's an upside and through the process of making nonsense reports you'll learn about proportionality and how to handle an adult debate without losing your temper. In the end it could turn out to be a learning experience for you.
Still, I'll return to my earlier advise and suggest if you do still feel strongly about this subject you should raise an ISSUE thread with your proposed resolution. Would be much more productive than following me round the forums and shouting "'sploits" "haxx" "griefer" "broken war mechanics" "CSM bias". Have the courage of your convinctions and put up an Issue. I know you can do it!
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Steel Tigeress
Gallente Steel-Wolfs
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Posted - 2008.07.03 19:50:00 -
[618]
Dont you ever, ever lecture me about courage and convictions. You fail to grasp what either of those two words actually meen. Maybe when you ever have to sacrifice anything for what you believe we can talk on this issue. Suffice to say you have the freedome to be a ***** because of the sacrifices of guys like me.
Until then keep spinning your wheels how ever fast you like, because the more you post about how much all the oppinions in this thread dont matter, the more people will realize how wrong you are for the job.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.07.03 19:57:00 -
[619]
Originally by: Steel Tigeress Dont you ever, ever lecture me about courage and convictions. You fail to grasp what either of those two words actually meen. Maybe when you ever have to sacrifice anything for what you believe we can talk on this issue. Suffice to say you have the freedome to be a ***** because of the sacrifices of guys like me.
Until then keep spinning your wheels how ever fast you like, because the more you post about how much all the oppinions in this thread dont matter, the more people will realize how wrong you are for the job.
I'll keep lecturing you about courage and convictions as long as your gameplay appears to lack these things. You are complaining about gameplay consequence and incoming wardecs in an open-pvp game that is famous for its dark and brutal environment and opportunity for conflict and warfare. Rather than fighting in-game and getting into your spaceship to defend your allies you've brought the fight to the forums and are trying to make mileage by attacking a CSM member who dares disagree with your ill-thought out and badly argued tirade against the principle of corporation wardecs. You basically want everything your own way and you lack the backbone to fight for what you believe in.
I've advised you many times to start an ISSUE topic on this subject and you still prefer to come back attacking me rather than taking the slightest risk in tabling your own topic for discussion. That I've reached unfavourable conclusions about your lack of courage should hardly be surprising. Still, you could always reach for the wardec button from your alt corp?
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Steel Tigeress
Gallente Steel-Wolfs
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Posted - 2008.07.03 20:15:00 -
[620]
This is an issue topic thread.
One concerning your removal, the only one dodging and avoiding the topic at hand here is you. You are the problem that needs fixing most at this point, because at this point in time trying to fix anything else is rather pointless as there is not an unbias CSM chair. At this point and propossed [ISSUE] thread has to get by you.
I may have overstated the votes in this thread though. There are ~198 votes for your removal... =/- 2%
Thats more votes than most issue threads. The only [ISSUE] thread I found with more was the Skill Que thread which is at about ~253 votes of approval. Which incidentally I like the solution you sudgested.
It goes to show you do have good ideas, so long as they dont affect anything you like negativly.....
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Steel Tigeress
Gallente Steel-Wolfs
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Posted - 2008.07.03 20:21:00 -
[621]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
I'll keep lecturing you about courage and convictions as long as your gameplay appears to lack these things. You basically want everything your own way and you lack the backbone to fight for what you believe in.
And no, you wont keep lecturing, because you can only lecture somone who is willing to learn. The thing you need to learn is that there is Selfless Service, which is what a leader should be, and Selfish Service which is what a power junkie practices.
I currently practice the first, and you the second. And you will never sway me into thinking you are in the right.
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QwaarJet
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.03 22:57:00 -
[622]
/signed.
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Riddick Valer
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Posted - 2008.07.04 01:18:00 -
[623]
Considering Jade's philosophy and the purpose of SF, it would make sense for all four major empires to make SF members persona non grata and targeted by FW navies. For him to argue that everything is working as intended is somewhat false. His own stated agendas would require SF to be hounded by the same NPCs as any militia, except he'd have no safe haven.
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Kame Malice
Minmatar Mitsukashi Holdings Limited
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Posted - 2008.07.04 03:28:00 -
[624]
Originally by: QwaarJet /signed.
now it's 199... This is a signature, not some random addition to my reply. |
Kirgan
Pyrognome
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Posted - 2008.07.04 04:35:00 -
[625]
I support this idea based solely on what I have seen in this thread.
Most of the commentary Jade has made is essentially without base or substance and comes across as condescending. He clearly demonstrates a lack of basic respect for the other CSM members and players, seeming to only care about his ideas and how things affect him. He further demonstrates a lack of concern for how this is making the CSM look even more ridiculous than many already see it.
CCP should consider stepping in and tossing him, maybe that can help salvage the CSM from the failure it gets closer to becoming daily.
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Trabber Shir
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Posted - 2008.07.04 05:09:00 -
[626]
Even as someone who typically tries to avoid the bloody politics in theses forums I find this thread absolutely appalling. I admit I only read the first 5 and last 5 pages, but the gist of this seems to be one of these 2 things:
1. Ranting that someone is acting like a troll in an influential position when in fact that person acted like a troll before winning a popular vote of the player base to get there.
2. Ranting that a first time committee chair failed to effectively handle disorderly conduct in the first few meetings of a brand new committee.
In response to the first type of complaint, What did you expect?
In response to the second, have you ever served on an ad-hoc committee? a jury maybe? The first few meetings/discussions are going to be rough, the important part is that the situation was brought under control in reasonable time (yes 4 meetings is reasonable, at least it is in corporate America).
Now I am just curious to see how this post will get flamed.
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Kame Malice
Minmatar Mitsukashi Holdings Limited
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Posted - 2008.07.04 05:51:00 -
[627]
Originally by: Trabber Shir Even as someone who typically tries to avoid the bloody politics in theses forums I find this thread absolutely appalling. I admit I only read the first 5 and last 5 pages, but the gist of this seems to be one of these 2 things:
1. Ranting that someone is acting like a troll in an influential position when in fact that person acted like a troll before winning a popular vote of the player base to get there.
2. Ranting that a first time committee chair failed to effectively handle disorderly conduct in the first few meetings of a brand new committee.
In response to the first type of complaint, What did you expect?
In response to the second, have you ever served on an ad-hoc committee? a jury maybe? The first few meetings/discussions are going to be rough, the important part is that the situation was brought under control in reasonable time (yes 4 meetings is reasonable, at least it is in corporate America).
Now I am just curious to see how this post will get flamed.
I respectfully disagree with your opinion, though i respect your right to have and state said opinion.
do i win at flaming? :D This is a signature, not some random addition to my reply. |
Steel Tigeress
Gallente Steel-Wolfs
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Posted - 2008.07.04 05:56:00 -
[628]
Originally by: Trabber Shir Even as someone who typically tries to avoid the bloody politics in theses forums I find this thread absolutely appalling. I admit I only read the first 5 and last 5 pages, but the gist of this seems to be one of these 2 things:
1. Ranting that someone is acting like a troll in an influential position when in fact that person acted like a troll before winning a popular vote of the player base to get there.
2. Ranting that a first time committee chair failed to effectively handle disorderly conduct in the first few meetings of a brand new committee.
In response to the first type of complaint, What did you expect?
In response to the second, have you ever served on an ad-hoc committee? a jury maybe? The first few meetings/discussions are going to be rough, the important part is that the situation was brought under control in reasonable time (yes 4 meetings is reasonable, at least it is in corporate America).
Now I am just curious to see how this post will get flamed.
I too agree with you for the most part, as its not the whole commitee silencing thing on meeting two that has me up in arms, its a combination of that on top of his general attitude to anything that is not on his personal agenda.
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Damion Zyne
Des Esseintes Social Club
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Posted - 2008.07.04 06:51:00 -
[629]
Exactly. Stop having your own opinion Jade. Afterall youre a spaceship politician.
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Sean Graves
Caldari Shipwrights Corporation
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Posted - 2008.07.04 14:15:00 -
[630]
I started readibng this in support of jade.. it's jades responses that prove the point rather then dispute it.
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Steel Tigeress
Gallente Steel-Wolfs
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Posted - 2008.07.04 22:07:00 -
[631]
201 in support of removal +/-2% or so.
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Cosy
Porandor
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Posted - 2008.07.04 22:26:00 -
[632]
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Katyayani Koriau
Amarr First Caldari Regiment
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Posted - 2008.07.05 01:03:00 -
[633]
Originally by: Steel Tigeress 201 in support of removal +/-2% or so.
is enounght 2 remove already. CCP time for Jade to be fired! Caldar Military 4evah!!!!!!
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D'ceet
Shadows of the Dead Daisho Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.07.05 03:16:00 -
[634]
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Shikoh
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Posted - 2008.07.05 12:06:00 -
[635]
aye, reason: misuse of given power and childish behavior
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Tzujeih
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.05 17:50:00 -
[636]
I don't have to support this. Just look at this thread. He is so gone next round.
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Tenebrious
Quantum Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.06 07:30:00 -
[637]
I can't believe somebody like this is representing the community. Fix it.
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LaVista Vista
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Posted - 2008.07.06 09:23:00 -
[638]
I think it's interesting how Jade got the most votes. But also had the largest thread made about him
Mind you, we had a vote during the last day of CSM meetings. Everybody supported that Jade stays as chairman. I'm fairly happy about that.
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express Burning Horizons
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Posted - 2008.07.06 09:57:00 -
[639]
I disagree with removal.
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts. |
Windjammer
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.06 19:04:00 -
[640]
CCP, please moderate this thread.
I do not understand why this thread has not been locked. The proposal cannot be implemented, whatever problem there was has been remedied and the proposal was an over the top reaction in the first place. Generally I'm a critic of goonswarm and Darius in particular, but even I didn't call for Darius's removal unless he continued his misbehaviour. He hasn't and as a result I haven't.
This thread serves no constructive purpose and only exists to attempt to grief the chair of the CSM and even in that fails pathetically. It has no place in the Assembly Hall and if it deserves any continued existence it should be in the Jita Park Speakers Corner as it is more opinion than a proposal.
Best regards, Windjammer
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Marlona Sky
D00M. The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.06 20:14:00 -
[641]
If this counsil is to be taken seriously, then you have to remove the people that are nothing more than a joke.
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Dianabolic
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.06 20:56:00 -
[642]
Originally by: Windjammer CCP, please moderate this thread.
I do not understand why this thread has not been locked. The proposal cannot be implemented, whatever problem there was has been remedied and the proposal was an over the top reaction in the first place. Generally I'm a critic of goonswarm and Darius in particular, but even I didn't call for Darius's removal unless he continued his misbehaviour. He hasn't and as a result I haven't.
This thread serves no constructive purpose and only exists to attempt to grief the chair of the CSM and even in that fails pathetically. It has no place in the Assembly Hall and if it deserves any continued existence it should be in the Jita Park Speakers Corner as it is more opinion than a proposal.
Best regards, Windjammer
Well said. Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
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Allaria Kriss
Minmatar Elipse Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.07 08:19:00 -
[643]
I don't believe this thread is still going. I stopped caring about the issue a long time ago, once I realized that this first meeting is a test. If the CSM can survive with Jade in charge, it can survive just about anything. So, while I still despise almost every little hypocritical thing Jade does in EVE, I still see this as a very interesting sociological test for the CSM body. I hope it survives. Rock on.
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Pithecanthropus
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Posted - 2008.07.18 20:18:00 -
[644]
Remove Jade... she's a bad role model. --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man. |
Mamba Lev
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.19 08:57:00 -
[645]
Signed
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Azure Skyclad
Amarr Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.19 15:19:00 -
[646]
I could make a mint selling peanuts to this shower.
Grow up ffs.
/em wades through the knee-deep sea of spat dummies, out of the thread.
http://ultravixen.co.uk/ |
Thorradin
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.19 16:08:00 -
[647]
I didn't vote for Jade, because I know what he's really like, and I know that he, like the rest of the CSM, really have no authority, and if he really is disliked so much for being who he is, he won't be elected again, ever, unless people forget what he's like.
That said, CCP should bar most of the current CSM from ever running agin after seeing them, during the NH discussion, actually say they agreed not to bring up things like ship balance. That right there should be grounds for immediate removal. You don't get to say 'oh well we will ignore x and y', you are there to voice our concerns, and you ignored one with a lot of support.
Burn all of you that took that cowardly stance, you're disgraces to the players that voted for you.
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Eternal Error
Exitus Acta Probant
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Posted - 2008.07.19 16:39:00 -
[648]
Signed. Not only because of those actions listed, which I hadn't heard about as I don't really care about CSM enough to read the stuff, but because I don't like Jade in general and think he/she is a carebear.
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Pithecanthropus
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Posted - 2008.07.19 19:34:00 -
[649]
I think the most amusing part of this... Jade still doesn't realize he and all other CMS's are supposed to represent the players, NOT themselves. It's turned into an arrogant chestpopping position, that resembles the likes of a corrupt city council board. They'll agree to push objectives in which they only agree with, and not what the community sees. Turning Eve into Jade Online, and thinking he has the power to shut up the people.
Surprise Jade... you're just another one of us. The difference is, you get to speak for us, but you don't. You speak for yourself and your own selfish agenda. You fail us, you fail CCP, and you fail at your job.
--------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man. |
Kazuma Saruwatari
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Posted - 2008.07.23 05:07:00 -
[650]
Originally by: Pithecanthropus I think the most amusing part of this... Jade still doesn't realize he and all other CMS's are supposed to represent the players, NOT themselves. It's turned into an arrogant chestpopping position, that resembles the likes of a corrupt city council board. They'll agree to push objectives in which they only agree with, and not what the community sees. Turning Eve into Jade Online, and thinking he has the power to shut up the people.
Surprise Jade... you're just another one of us. The difference is, you get to speak for us, but you don't. You speak for yourself and your own selfish agenda. You fail us, you fail CCP, and you fail at your job.
-
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Hitachi Morimoto
Gallente Synthetic Light Mining Corps.
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Posted - 2008.07.23 05:25:00 -
[651]
You know, this made me wonder if this was the reason the CSM failed the first time.
:):):):):):):):):):):)
Newsflash! The eve gate is made of delicious cheese! |
Xyzibit
Caldari New-Roots
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Posted - 2008.07.23 05:39:00 -
[652]
NOT supported... there was a vote for the CSM! next time vote different but nope this is not the way...
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Stab Wounds
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Posted - 2008.07.23 10:49:00 -
[653]
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cytomatrix
Carebear Killers Inc. Anarchy.
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Posted - 2008.07.23 13:55:00 -
[654]
I support this idea. She should be removed from the whole CSM. ______________________________________________________________
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Lucai
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.23 14:13:00 -
[655]
Edited by: Lucai on 23/07/2008 14:14:45
Democracy doesnt seem to be a well known concept in this thread
1) People voted Jade into the CSM position. If you dont agree, vote differently, there is nothing else you can do, and there shouldnt be anything. People voted Jade, and thats it for this term.
2) You do realize that democracy doesnt work like: Someone gets voted and then represents your interest.
What actually happens is: People state their agenda to get voted, and if they get voted, in the ideal case they support this agenda. At no point they have to turn around and support anything else or even things people that didnt vote them want. They may try to do that to get voted again next time, but regarding one term its simple:
Person A has a personal agenda, person A gets voted to support that agenda, person A works to make that personal agenda come true.
Its a miracle how so many people are seemingly so naive regarding democracy.
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Lucai
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.23 14:26:00 -
[656]
Edited by: Lucai on 23/07/2008 14:26:41
Just found this, thanks@Inanna.
People should probably read it before looking stupid in here.
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Molpadia Devaux
Excessive Intoxication
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Posted - 2008.07.23 19:31:00 -
[657]
When I started reading this thread I was neutral. I have however come to the conclusion that the position of chairperson as currently administered is impeding the work that could be accomplished.
My stepfather was the town moderator in a small New England town, for many years. For those unfamiliar with the forum, a traditional Town Meeting is a Pure Democracy. The various committees and boards make proposals for local laws, budgets and the like, also citizens can propose articles for a vote at the Town Meeting. At the appointed time, all registered voters are welcome to attend the meeting and vote on every article.
The moderators job is to keep the meeting flowing, maintain order, and allow for full discussion, pro and con on all items. The key to acheiving this is Roberts Rules of Order. This assures one topic at a time is on the floor, and discussion is restricted to the item in question. And all arguments that have reasonable bearing on the item are allowed.
Now my step dad was good, our meetings stayed pretty much on topic and I never recall anyone having an opinion to express being denied an opportunity to speak. Hitting a mute button seems a failure in leadership.
My personal experience involved establishing small civic organizations. Having been elected chair, My first suggestion was to establish some rules; rule #1, we would follow Roberts Rules of Order. Rule # 2 The chair could suspend Roberts, Rule #3, The chair could invoke Roberts at any time.
This gave us a firm foundation in established rules, and also the flexability to be less formal if we so choose. Rule #1 for Rules and budget meetings, Rule# 2 for most others.It worked very well. part of it may be my upbringing. When it comes to free speach I firmly believe in the saying " I disagree with everything you are saying, but will defend to the death, your right to say it."
This is the attitude needed if a chair is to be effective. The chair should only vote to break a tie ( or create one ); they need to be as neutral in all matters before the committe as humanly possible,and they need to hear all valid arguments pro and con.
I do not want as chair, someone with the power to prevent my representitive from voting ( I did not vote for any of the people mentioned in this discussion, but the one I did vote for, is on the council.) If the actions of the chair invalidate the vote of my rep, then I am disenfranchised. Actions like this will doom this adventure to failure.
The responses posted by Jade in this thread lead me to honestly question if he has the maturity required to lead this endeavor. A better way need to be implace to prevent a total collapse of this experiment.
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Pwett
Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2008.07.23 20:21:00 -
[658]
Dr. Jim Boren said it best.
"Bureaucracy is the epoxy that greases the wheels of progress." _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
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Azzma
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.07.23 23:26:00 -
[659]
I dont like how we have a creepy grown man who roleplays as a girl named jade representing eve.
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Damion Zyne
Des Esseintes Social Club
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Posted - 2008.07.24 09:52:00 -
[660]
Edited by: Damion Zyne on 24/07/2008 09:56:34 Haha, you guys are still going on about it ??? Isnt the term ending soon anyway ???
Originally by: Azzma I dont like how we have a creepy grown man who roleplays as a girl named jade representing eve.
I dont like how we have a creepy grown man who roleplays as a amarr / slaver / ugly guy with a hood named Azzma makes Eve players look dumb.
Do you quit now ?
Edit: I kind of feel sorry for bumping it up again, but this thread is like a car accident. Its horrible and you still keep watching.
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