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Tank CEO Caldari Dark Cartel	Posted - 2009.01.11 06:17:00 - [1] There are many things that I have a problem with caldari.. Im just going to post my thoughts and have you people decide whats balanced. Today, the way eve is, ships are about EHP. Now, I have always been lonewolf back in the day and now thats really not possible, at least not fun anymore cause you get your ass kicked. Since ship set ups are based on the best EHP, obviously people fit plates/shield extenders in PVP. For PVE, where damage can be controlled, armor reps and shield boosters are used. CCP's attempt to make caldari more and more like turrets is going downhill in my opinion. First off, I want to talk about Shield Extenders. I beleive they need to be rebalanced ship signature penalty wise. I was goofing off on the Test server last night and a good EHP Caracal for example had 300 signature radius.. Now honestly, the point of people flying smaller ships is for the advantage of having a small ship sig.. Basically, the more extenders you fit, the easier your going to be hit by bigger ships and personally it destroys the whole point and not worth it. Comparison: 1600mm Plate: 4,200HP - Penalty - Increased Mass - Slower Acceleration, Less Agility (lol, big whoop) Large Shield Extender: 2,625 HP, 25m Sig Bonus (on smaller ships, thats a big penalty) O yea heres the best part, The rolled tungsten gives the same amount of armor as the tech 2, but less mass and less fitting. The Large-F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction is less fitting requirements, yes, but also, less shield, only 2,250 HP. Now im not saying nerf plates, im just saying, please, choose a different penalty for LSE to be more balanced with armor plates, at least. The reason I mentioned this is that now Rage, Fury missiles also increase the sig radius of ships, further increasing their vulnerability to larger ships. Heres a list of penalties for missiles now (t2). Sig Radius increase per missile launcher Anything faster then 93m/s (Hvy Assault Missile) dmg is reduced ontop of the sig radius dmg reduction (while turrets can pop frigates (medium weapon pulse for example) with a just a web on him or not having a transversal velocity). Caldari ships have the lowest DPS due to the fact that their missiles hit, well, more and more you try to make missiles like turrets, you need to compensate and increase the DPS Caldari missile boats have the worst ship bonuses ever in my opinion, specifically the dmg bonus to just kinetic missiles, which all my fits, I have the highest kinetic resistance and in real pvp, you don't change out your missiles to the best dmging one unless your doing a 1v1. Caldari ships are incapible to fit lock down modules because 1 or 2 medium slots used for a afterburner/warp dis is devastating to our tank, and CCP has made changes to cadlari long ago to preventthem from fitting a proper armor tank set up. Caldari missile boats are terrible fleet set ups due to the fact that missiles take time to hit, instead of instant hit for turrets. It is a big weakness. So you decide, is caldari really balanced? Are large shield extenders really balanced? You tell me. I would suggest constructive ways to fix this problem, but CCP isn't going to listen to me. All I can do is make this post, a whine, there I said it so you don't have too, so that maybe CCP will wake up and look into caldari and fix it the next upcoming patch because to be honest, im done with caldari. After 6 years of flyin them, I won't fly them again until a change is made to make them balanced with the other ships. So you people vote: IS CALDARI MISSILE BOATS BALANCED? ARE SHIELD EXTENDERS BALANCED COMPARED TO 1600MM PLATES? POST YOUR ANSWER - Yes or No. I vote NO! to both Questions. P.S. DIE to all you a-holes that say I ebayed my account.
Ladie RRama	Posted - 2009.01.11 06:21:00 - [2] No!, give the Cerb 2 more mids and some PG and CPU!
Zenst Gallente North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.01.11 06:29:00 - [3] no as sheilds and armour are completely different, I know this from all the times armour complaints have been met with such a response thats its now totaly true. Armour and sheilds are different. Now that said the sig hit from extenders was born from the days of uber fast nano-nano ships and thats all changed so that might need revisiting. But as for caldari ships, there are issues in area's, when did you last see a eagle used. But all races have there black-sheep ship.
SniperWo1f Omega Enterprises 0mega Factor	Posted - 2009.01.11 06:33:00 - [4] well as a counter point to what you said last night a corp mate in a drake passive tanked aggroed three loot thieves . they then returned in a domi-sleipnir-scorp and couldn't kill him . now we are talking about two battleships and a command ship not being able to destroy a single tech 1 BC . Deos that seem fair?
Trader20	Posted - 2009.01.11 06:36:00 - [5] Edited by: Trader20 on 11/01/2009 06:40:53 1st?-Yes 2nd?-No Possible solution. X-Large shield extender. (raw stats, feel free to tweak) 5000 shield hp sigradius: +50 I want to see a nice buffer tank raven or rohk but using lse for a bs sized ship is kind of weak.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.11 06:37:00 - [6] I vote NO. Passive shield tanks are way overpowered, and missiles are too good. They need to be nerfed.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.01.11 06:37:00 - [7] Shield extenders... Perfectly balanced ? No way. Imbalanced to the point of needing urgent tweaking ? Not really. As for the missileboats in general, I'd argue that the only two balanced missile systems (or, reasonably well balanced anyway) are the battleship ones, and the four lower ones need some serious tweaking. And the capital cruise missiles are completely absent, they should start existing sooner rather than later.
Tank CEO Caldari Dark Cartel	Posted - 2009.01.11 06:40:00 - [8] Originally by: Trader20 Edited by: Trader20 on 11/01/2009 06:37:23 1st ?- Yes 2nd ?-No Possible solution. X-Large shield extender. (raw stats, feel free to tweak) 5000 shield hp sigradius: +50 The sig radius penalty needs to be remove or reduced significantly. If plate only takes a agility hit, then ****, give us something similar. The sig radius penalty negates the point of even extending your shields because all it does it make you more vulnerable to fire from bigger weapons, therefore, taking in more damage...
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.01.11 06:43:00 - [9] Oh wow. What an unintelligent, noob post. Where's my XL armor repairer? Active all resistance armor hardening module? Armor repairer boost amplifier module? WHY DOESN'T MY ARMOR PASSIVELY RECHARGE? I'M TANK CEO, I DON'T KNOW **** ABOUT GAME MECHANICS. CAPS AT THE END OF A POST MAKES ME LOOK KEWL.
Trader20	Posted - 2009.01.11 06:44:00 - [10] Originally by: Tank CEO Originally by: Trader20 Edited by: Trader20 on 11/01/2009 06:37:23 1st ?- Yes 2nd ?-No Possible solution. X-Large shield extender. (raw stats, feel free to tweak) 5000 shield hp sigradius: +50 The sig radius penalty needs to be remove or reduced significantly. If plate only takes a agility hit, then ****, give us something similar. The sig radius penalty negates the point of even extending your shields because all it does it make you more vulnerable to fire from bigger weapons, therefore, taking in more damage... ...flying a bs with ur mwd on gives you twice the sig of a dread so I'm not to worried about my sig rad in a bs
Trader20	Posted - 2009.01.11 06:46:00 - [11] Originally by: Vaal Erit Oh wow. What an unintelligent, noob post. Where's my XL armor repairer? Active all resistance armor hardening module? Armor repairer boost amplifier module? WHY DOESN'T MY ARMOR PASSIVELY RECHARGE? I'M TANK CEO, I DON'T KNOW **** ABOUT GAME MECHANICS. CAPS AT THE END OF A POST MAKES ME LOOK KEWL. Umm tank is better then you at pvp so I would stfu if I was you.
Opertone Caldari Gladiators of Rage Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.01.11 06:46:00 - [12] No an No Caldari miss XL shield Extender... then caldari idea is just crap... there is no PVP outside 30 km range... because of the nature of warp drive. Caldari ships are geared towards 80 km optimal for cruisers and 150 for hacs. And 250 for Battleships. How is this meant to work? and factor in missile flight time too, and caldari only get velocity and optimal bonuses, they can't go for damage if they wanted too. The only ship in line with 30 km bubble PVP is caldari raven with torpedoes, which isn't too good because of 0% EM hole, lack of medium slots and poor combat effectiveness at close ranges. Caldari and optimal are just crap, because it doesn't happen, doesn't work... warp drive needs to be totally changed. So that sniper combat, range, speed, actual distance start to play a role. Now most important role is played, by EHP and damage output. Plate tank and DPS, little below that is lock time and tackle. Even less is electronic warfare. Optimal and missiles aren't on the list. Range of engagement is limited to 30 kms. Caldari as a concept are out of the game. Shield tanking could be viable if there wasn't a 30 km sphere rule... if you are out of 30 kms your target warps of. If your target can't warp off, you do much more damage within 30 kms. Intoroduce no warp zone if your cap isn't charging. Let warp drive charge from cap, so if are in combat and waste cap, it takes you longer to charge up the warp drive. So that actual PvP at range without scram can take place. currenlty range is a joke, when entire fleet can land on top of you. if only sniper setups were possible, and they may be, if there no warp zones... maybe then we get MWD knights, vs long range archers, gallente vs caldari. Tank Crusaders vs Barbarian skirmishers, ammar vs minimatar. Today it is i has point on you, so my 15 mates land on top of you and deal DPS... ignoring range speed and everything. Ships should not be able to warp once they PvP, or there should be 400 km no warp zone... well maybe till the fight is over. Real fighting can be seen in alliance tournament, in space it's catch one of them and gank him with all your might. Or a bar brawl at 30 km range, multiple skull breaking with no tactics. Big messy dog cat ball.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.01.11 06:51:00 - [13] Edited by: Vaal Erit on 11/01/2009 06:51:33 Originally by: Trader20 Originally by: Vaal Erit Oh wow. What an unintelligent, noob post. Where's my XL armor repairer? Active all resistance armor hardening module? Armor repairer boost amplifier module? WHY DOESN'T MY ARMOR PASSIVELY RECHARGE? I'M TANK CEO, I DON'T KNOW **** ABOUT GAME MECHANICS. CAPS AT THE END OF A POST MAKES ME LOOK KEWL. Umm tank is better then you at pvp so I would stfu if I was you. Tank CEO hasn't played in over 2 years. I could fly circles around him and pod him while he is wondering wtf is with these new blue scramblers. Have you read recent Tank CEO posts? He is clueless. Take this thread for example. -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
SniperWo1f Omega Enterprises 0mega Factor	Posted - 2009.01.11 06:52:00 - [14] In a way i think that caldari pilots and minmatar pilots have seperatly only half their potential but teamed up minmatar webs and painters with caldari shields and missiles make a damned impressive showing in combat . "In Rust We Trust"
Trader20	Posted - 2009.01.11 06:54:00 - [15] The funny thing is if you took drones out of the fight the torp raven does more dps with 3x range against a mega. So Caldari bs-level pvp is just fine.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups	Posted - 2009.01.11 06:55:00 - [16] Originally by: Vaal Erit Where's my XL armor repairer? Active all resistance armor hardening module? Armor repairer boost amplifier module? WHY DOESN'T MY ARMOR PASSIVELY RECHARGE? This SKUNK Originally by: CCP Navigator People who think I am joking or talking big are going to understand very quickly that there will be order
Trader20	Posted - 2009.01.11 06:56:00 - [17] Originally by: Vaal Erit Edited by: Vaal Erit on 11/01/2009 06:51:33 Originally by: Trader20 Originally by: Vaal Erit Oh wow. What an unintelligent, noob post. Where's my XL armor repairer? Active all resistance armor hardening module? Armor repairer boost amplifier module? WHY DOESN'T MY ARMOR PASSIVELY RECHARGE? I'M TANK CEO, I DON'T KNOW **** ABOUT GAME MECHANICS. CAPS AT THE END OF A POST MAKES ME LOOK KEWL. Umm tank is better then you at pvp so I would stfu if I was you. Tank CEO hasn't played in over 2 years. I could fly circles around him and pod him while he is wondering wtf is with these new blue scramblers. Have you read recent Tank CEO posts? He is clueless. Take this thread for example. Yea something is up with his recent posts, he was leet back in the day but I think he senile or something?
Trader20	Posted - 2009.01.11 07:02:00 - [18] Originally by: Vaal Erit Oh wow. What an unintelligent, noob post. Where's my XL armor repairer? Active all resistance armor hardening module? Armor repairer boost amplifier module? WHY DOESN'T MY ARMOR PASSIVELY RECHARGE? I'M TANK CEO, I DON'T KNOW **** ABOUT GAME MECHANICS. CAPS AT THE END OF A POST MAKES ME LOOK KEWL. XL armor rep: good point, their should be an XL armor rep All res armor hrdnr: EANM and DCU? Armor rep booster: rigs:nanopump
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.01.11 07:07:00 - [19] I hear it all the time that Tank CEO was an epic PvPer, but I just don't see it. Tank CEO was involved in one of the best EVE videos ever, where a miner gets ganked and rants and raves and goes nuts at them over TS. But the kicker there is that Tank CEO wasn't even the guy who popped him afaik, Tank CEO was just egging him on. I don't see how someone who kills macro haulers all day an epic pvper, maybe standards have dropped? I consider Le Skunk to be a very good PvPer, I've seen his camps and stuff and he knows his ****.
Tank CEO Caldari Dark Cartel	Posted - 2009.01.11 07:13:00 - [20] Edited by: Tank CEO on 11/01/2009 07:15:45 Originally by: Vaal Erit Edited by: Vaal Erit on 11/01/2009 06:51:33 Originally by: Trader20 Originally by: Vaal Erit Oh wow. What an unintelligent, noob post. Where's my XL armor repairer? Active all resistance armor hardening module? Armor repairer boost amplifier module? WHY DOESN'T MY ARMOR PASSIVELY RECHARGE? I'M TANK CEO, I DON'T KNOW **** ABOUT GAME MECHANICS. CAPS AT THE END OF A POST MAKES ME LOOK KEWL. Umm tank is better then you at pvp so I would stfu if I was you. Tank CEO hasn't played in over 2 years. I could fly circles around him and pod him while he is wondering wtf is with these new blue scramblers. Have you read recent Tank CEO posts? He is clueless. Take this thread for example. Ill take your 4.3k armor in exchange for 2.6k shield with a crappy shield recharge rate and a 25m sig bonus so you get totally pwned easier by bigger ships.
Tank CEO Caldari Dark Cartel	Posted - 2009.01.11 07:17:00 - [21] Originally by: Vaal Erit I hear it all the time that Tank CEO was an epic PvPer, but I just don't see it. Tank CEO was involved in one of the best EVE videos ever, where a miner gets ganked and rants and raves and goes nuts at them over TS. But the kicker there is that Tank CEO wasn't even the guy who popped him afaik, Tank CEO was just egging him on. I don't see how someone who kills macro haulers all day an epic pvper, maybe standards have dropped? I consider Le Skunk to be a very good PvPer, I've seen his camps and stuff and he knows his ****. A lonewolf pilot has come back to a now team oriented/required game. Teamspeak Rumble Recording! Vote for homepage
Frug Repo Industries	Posted - 2009.01.11 07:21:00 - [22] Give caldari a better HAM platform... and by this I mean, make hams not suck, and the whole race will be fine. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2009.01.11 07:44:00 - [23] Originally by: Trader20 The funny thing is if you took drones out of the fight the torp raven does more dps with 3x range against a mega. So Caldari bs-level pvp is just fine. If you took missiles out of the fight, an ibis could do more damage than a torp raven. With QR, sig radius suddenly became a major factor in tanking. That the caldari penalty on sig radius made things unbalanced should not be such a controversial statement.
Alexandra Knight Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2009.01.11 08:04:00 - [24] Here we go again
Trader20	Posted - 2009.01.11 08:30:00 - [25] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Originally by: Trader20 The funny thing is if you took drones out of the fight the torp raven does more dps with 3x range against a mega. So Caldari bs-level pvp is just fine. If you took missiles out of the fight, an ibis could do more damage than a torp raven. With QR, sig radius suddenly became a major factor in tanking. That the caldari penalty on sig radius made things unbalanced should not be such a controversial statement. On most pvp bs you will be fitting a mwd. A bs with a mwd activated has twice the sig of a dread so I don't think you'll have to worry about a little extra sig from lse. Also your raven ibis statement is wrong becasue a raven would still outdamage the ibis with his drones so u=owntd.
Bumbum George	Posted - 2009.01.11 08:37:00 - [26] Ebay Tank is far inferior to the original Tank
flashfreaking LFC Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.11 08:41:00 - [27] New Vote: Is Tank CEO senile: (I vote NO) Is this the original Tank CEO: (I vote NO) Thank you for your time
Gierling Gallente Viper Squad	Posted - 2009.01.11 08:43:00 - [28] Much as I Hate to admit it, I see some of Tank's pain here. CCP has consistently decided to make Caldari play by different rules then the rest of the races and it just works less and less as time goes on. Missilles require far more hand holding to get to work right then turrets and Shield tanking is stuck in this abyss where it is utterly useless until you've spent several billion isk, at which point it pwns and pwns hard. I'm a gallente SPec but I got to think theres a better way, maybe an inertia and/or top speed penalty for extenders would work better?
Sera Ryskin	Posted - 2009.01.11 08:48:00 - [29] Shield extenders are just fine. In fact, they are more than fine, as shield tanking is currently so much better than armor tanking that even ships like the Harbinger are better with shield tanks instead of armor. Hint: 3x damage mods are just as mandatory as MWD/point. Hint, part II: speed is life, and it has nothing to do with tanking. Plates/rigs = you are slow = you die.
Haakelen Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.11 08:49:00 - [30] Originally by: Bellum Eternus I vote NO. Passive shield tanks are way overpowered, and missiles are too good. They need to be nerfed. This.
Tank CEO Caldari Dark Cartel	Posted - 2009.01.11 09:27:00 - [31] Edited by: Tank CEO on 11/01/2009 09:28:14 Originally by: flashfreaking New Vote: Is Tank CEO senile: (I vote NO) Is this the original Tank CEO: (I vote NO) Thank you for your time Prove it. Teamspeak Rumble Recording! Vote for homepage
Tank CEO Caldari Dark Cartel	Posted - 2009.01.11 09:34:00 - [32] This is my final attempt to get something to happen with caldari. But being that they are now rolled as anti-suppost classs ships / ECM in fleet battles and ment for long range. I can do nothing about it and will just have to repsec into turrets. Just for your information I killed macro haulers because I killed so many, they would pay me ransom every time they jumped through the gate, netting me a hefty profit of 1 billion isk and I was payed weekly to not shoot specific targets. I am the ultimate badass pirate that will find a way to bring chaos to your order. You will be in chaos. I am the beginning, the end, the one who is many. Teamspeak Rumble Recording! Vote for homepage
Pearljammer 5657	Posted - 2009.01.11 11:09:00 - [33] Well im trying to dedicate some time to gunnery but I think missles need tweaking, yea there are alot of caldari but damn, I want to pvp in my missle boats. Please CCP boost missles, or at least make target painters a high slot fitting.
Captain Pompous	Posted - 2009.01.11 11:12:00 - [34] Originally by: Tank CEO This is my final attempt to get something to happen with caldari. But being that they are now rolled as anti-suppost classs ships / ECM in fleet battles and ment for long range. I can do nothing about it and will just have to repsec into turrets. Just for your information I killed macro haulers because I killed so many, they would pay me ransom every time they jumped through the gate, netting me a hefty profit of 1 billion isk and I was payed weekly to not shoot specific targets. I am the ultimate badass pirate that will find a way to bring chaos to your order. You will be in chaos. I am the beginning, the end, the one who is many. quieten down there, and if i were you i'd start looking for the ebay receipt to get your money back - your dignity is lying around you like a pile of torn-up betting slips \o/
Dr Sheepbringer Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.11 11:28:00 - [35] Armor > Alloy of sorts (depending on what you use), that can or not, be radar deflective etc. It's only mass. Shield > energy, shows up like a xmas tree on radars. Armor ships should be slow, but more stealthy. Shield ships should be faster, but glow like torches.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.01.11 11:29:00 - [36] We cannot have XL shield extenders. Would make passive regen ships too powerful. Mass and agility are usually a WAY WAY worse penalty than signature radius. Sig radius is a large penalty to ships like minmatar that rely on not being hit. That been said. I think the penalty should be changed to percentage of signature radius with a reduction on the base number. For example LSEII be made 15% penalty. What would result. They would not completely screw smaller ships defenses on moderate setups. But when you start to build up like 4 of them on top of each other you end with a HUGE sig radius. That woudl enable moderade buffering with almost no penalties. But huge penalties for full out SE tank.
Grek Forto 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit	Posted - 2009.01.11 11:33:00 - [37] Originally by: Tank CEO P.S. DIE to all you a-holes that say I ebayed my account.
Jack Jombardo Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.11 11:56:00 - [38] No the aren't. - low EFT-DPS ... but no other ship can be compared to the mission-speed with a Raven/CNR/Golem! If you like high bountys ever 30 min you MUST fly them :(. Perfect damage-types do to missiles. - tank isn't in line do to X-Large .... where the hec are X-Large-Armor reppers???? - tanking isn't in line at all ... where is our PASSIVE-ARMOR-TANK ??? No, not just buffer, CAPLESS SELVE REPAIR! - worst ship bonus? NO! "10% less cap usage for weapons" <- THAT'S the worst!
Inertial The Suicide Kings True Reign	Posted - 2009.01.11 11:57:00 - [39] Large Shield Extender II: 165 pg 1600 mm Rolled Tungsten plate: 500 pg
Jack Jombardo Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.11 12:04:00 - [40] Edited by: Jack Jombardo on 11/01/2009 12:04:53 Oh and I forgot passive-tank-Drake. Maybe the only BC that is able to fit enough tank for level 4 missions while doing still enough damage to finish level 4th. (PS: I know, it's slow, but it's doable ... which other BC can do it?) Combined with the fact that you need far less time to skill large-launchers-T2 compared to large-turrets-T2. Additional need far less SP to get a accepteble T2-passive-shild-tank compared to a T2-active-armor-tank.
Xoth Freefall Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.11 12:13:00 - [41] Armor plates reduce the speed bonus you get from ABs and MWDs. Caldari isn't the only one effected by this. I tend to passive shield tank most of my smaller minmatar ships.
Jack Jombardo Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.11 12:35:00 - [42] Minmatar, good excample. Passive-Shild-Tank Hurrican >>>> Active-Armor-Tank Hurrican vor PvE And that's with 6 LOW and just 4 MED slots. Even some Amarr Ships are far better shild-tanked then Armor (Arbitrator for excample).
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.01.11 12:51:00 - [43] Originally by: Trader20 The funny thing is if you took drones out of the fight the torp raven does more dps with 3x range against a mega. So Caldari bs-level pvp is just fine. Yes, and if you took missiles out the fight, the megathron would outdamage a dreadnought against a POS. Because clearly, when you ignore part of a ships weapon systems, you get a balanced comparison. -- 249km locking?
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.11 13:02:00 - [44] Originally by: Tank CEO 1600mm Plate: 4,200HP - Penalty - Increased Mass - Slower Acceleration, Less Agility (lol, big whoop) Yes. HUGE whoop, especially after QR. Less agility and slower acceleration = slower to warp = you get caught and then you die. And you hold your gang up, and then they die. The sig bonus on the extenders speed up the locking process, making them easier to catch as well, but not to the same extent, and the tacklers still have to react as fast. Quote: Large Shield Extender: 2,625 HP, 25m Sig Bonus (on smaller ships, thats a big penalty) So is the additional 2,750 tonnes and 500MW powergrid lost for a 1600mm plate. Heck, at least you can fit LSEs on small ship and still have room for something more than a civilian gatling. It's almost as if they have designed the stuff to work with different size ships… Quote: Anything faster then 93m/s (Hvy Assault Missile) dmg is reduced ontop of the sig radius dmg reduction (while turrets can pop frigates (medium weapon pulse for example) with a just a web on him or not having a transversal velocity). Eh… I think you underestimate how fast a frigate can orbit, even while webbed, after QR. Quote: Caldari missile boats have the worst ship bonuses ever in my opinion, specifically the dmg bonus to just kinetic missiles, which all my fits, I have the highest kinetic resistance and in real pvp, you don't change out your missiles to the best dmging one unless your doing a 1v1. Oh, you mean like the Gallente ships that get Hybrid Weapon bonuses? You know those weapons that do… (wait for it) Kinetic/Thermal damage — generally the two highest resists for both shield and armour? Quote: Caldari ships are incapible to fit lock down modules because 1 or 2 medium slots used for a afterburner/warp dis is devastating to our tank, and CCP has made changes to cadlari long ago to preventthem from fitting a proper armor tank set up. And armour tanking ships are incapable of fitting damage mods. So it evens out. Quote: IS CALDARI MISSILE BOATS BALANCED? ARE SHIELD EXTENDERS BALANCED COMPARED TO 1600MM PLATES? Yes. Mu. In that order. 1600mm plates have no equivalent mod for shields. In fact there are tons of non-equivalences across both tanking mod groups: Why do armour plates come in six varieties (50mm, 100mm, 200mm, 400mm, 800mm, 1600mm) and extenders only in four (micro, small, medium, large)? Unfair! Why do extenders also improve your regen, and plates do not? Unfair! Why do shields have boost amps and passive regen mods and armour reps do not? Unfair! Why do armour resist mods come in three flavours (hardeners, energized plates, resist plates) and shields only in two (hardeners and resist amps)? Unfair! Originally by: Trader20 Originally by: Vaal Erit Where's my XL armor repairer? Active all resistance armor hardening module? Armor repairer boost amplifier module? XL armor rep: good point, their should be an XL armor rep All res armor hrdnr: EANM Armor rep booster: rigs:nanopump EANMs aren't active, but then again, why don't shields have a passive all-resists mod? Unfair! Nanopumps are kind of similar to boost amps, yes, but shilds also have rigs that duplicate this function — double-boost amps! Unfair! ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.11 13:06:00 - [45] Originally by: Jack Jombardo Oh and I forgot passive-tank-Drake. Maybe the only BC that is able to fit enough tank for level 4 missions while doing still enough damage to finish level 4th. (PS: I know, it's slow, but it's doable ... which other BC can do it?) Myrmidon. Same strength while passive-tanked, and can put up an armour tank that is only slightly less weak and run around with AB on full tilt, thereby nullifying large parts of any missiles and Battleship-turret damage… all while doing more DPS than the Drake at longer ranges. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers	Posted - 2009.01.11 13:16:00 - [46] Edited by: Tobias Sjodin on 11/01/2009 13:16:38 Originally by: Jack Jombardo Minmatar, clueless example. Passive-Shild-Tank Hurrican >>>> Active-Armor-Tank Hurrican vor PvE And that's with 6 LOW and just 4 MED slots. Even some Amarr Ships are far better shild-tanked then Armor (Arbitrator for excample). Fixed it for you. Hurricane without gyros... :facepalm: Shield tanked arbitrator? WTF... go away
Repelsteeltje	Posted - 2009.01.11 13:24:00 - [47] I dunno, i like caldari, Good ships: Drake, Cerberus, Raven, Scorpion, Falcon, hawk, crow, manticore... Yeah pretty good in my book.
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.11 14:15:00 - [48] Edited by: Sky Marshal on 11/01/2009 14:16:48 Quote: Armor plates reduce the speed bonus you get from ABs and MWDs. Yes but Caldari ships has always slower and less agility than any ship of all races, so same with plates I often see fleet-fitted Megathrons go more fast than my Rokh in sub-warp speed. Quote: We cannot have XL shield extenders. Would make passive regen ships too powerful. Depends of the fitting requirement. CCP can make XL Extenders hard to fit that we can only fit one in one BS, but this would free one med slot on Caldari BSs for a small module like Target Painter for exemple. Quote: - tanking isn't in line at all ... where is our PASSIVE-ARMOR-TANK ??? No, not just buffer, CAPLESS SELVE REPAIR! ... Always this argument ... Just check the counter-parts (Yes, we have it with a passive tank) of a Shield Power Relay, and also how work passive reload of Shield/Cap (cf Peak Reload), then think two minutes how this work in situation, before come back and admit that it is not so unfair against armor tankers. ___________________ CCP deserves only disrespect and hatred for all nerfs since Empyrean Age.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.01.11 14:25:00 - [49] I'd love some xl-shield extenders as long as the fittings made it impossible to effectively fit it on anything smaller that a bs. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
ShardowRhino Caldari Legion 0f The Damned	Posted - 2009.01.11 15:05:00 - [50] Originally by: Pearljammer 5657 yea there are alot of caldari but damn, I want to pvp in my missle boats The number of characters of any particular race means nothing. I started as Caldari based on the fluff at the character creation screen. I had no idea what missiles were like compared to blasters or knew what a blaster was. As for alts that are caldari specced how many are used for mission grinding? How many were created to pvp as Caldari? I'd bet that the bulk of alts would be for grinding missions, not pvp. PVE does not equal PVP and the 2 should be seperate. Buff the other race's PVE ability for all I care. I'm caldari and gal specced with slightly more sp in caldari. its obvious to me that if im going to solo im going with a gallante ship and if im going in a fleet then maybe i could use caldari ** since others are going to tackle and i can fire from range. but in a solo fight massive range means nothing unless you either get a stupid target that rushes you and does not run or you can instapop them. What people are ignoring is that long range is nice but means nothing while soloing. sure we can use our lows for damage mods but even a full rack isn't going to put us near the dps of a blaster boat without a damage mod. so the argument of "armor tanks= no damage mods" is negated by their naturally higher dps then an augmented missile based dps. gal can have naturally higher dps, tackle,mwd and a tank. caldari must sacrifice tank in order to get tackle and an mwd. their lows full of damage mods can only get them near, not greater dps then the short range ship. Add in the recent missile changes requiring caldari to use a target painter and there is virtually nothing left of the mid/tanking slots on caldari ships. The only draw back of blasters would be their short range. However that is negated by an mwd and drones. Last I checked a web doesn't have 20km for its range. There is no web variation, no small,medium and large or high powered short, average strength medium range and light strength long range webs. no scripts to offer flexibility either. If a gal and caldari ship both with tackle gear are facing off the caldari only has seconds to enjoy his lower damage, long range before the gal ship is in web range. once in web range they are BOTH in range and the one with the mwd is eventually going to close the gap bringing his naturally higher damage into the fight. Until then hes going to be rocking the target with his drone advantage. MOST caldari ships are not Drakes. That being said there is only a Drake and the rest are something else. Its rather moronic to believe because 1 low,low dps bc that can tank well but nothing else should condemn the rest of the ships of that race to mediocrity. "Great i can tank all this ** but can't kill a damn thing! Even if i do enough damage hes just going to fly off!" is likely to bring up memories for any drake pilots out there. I'd like to see more selection for shield tanking similar to armor tanking. But tanking is just one of the problems that caldari must face while soloing. I'd much rather see better ship bonuses , primarily the bonus to kinetic missiles. If the caldari are missile fiends why would they limit themselves to just kinetics? This makes as much sense as gal bonuses suggesting that only thermal drones and tungsten loaded blasters receive damage bonuses. It is my experience in games that when people say "oh they are good in groups at least" means people are nicely saying "they suck". It was true in another game and its true in EVE. The only way it would be "balanced" is if the good solo ships SUCKED in a group, somehow receiving negative "bonuses" when in a fleet. Also, mixing 2 races does not mean it changes solo play. simply put there should be solo and fleet ships in all races or at least enough mod diversity to allow fair fights to be possible. Hams were a step in the right direction but we need more!
Spectre80 Caldari The Knights Templar Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.01.11 15:45:00 - [51] i say no for both. it seems ccp does all it can to keep people who fly caldari ships only to use em to do missions/ratting atm. definedly needs balancing. please CCP.
Jack Jombardo Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.11 15:48:00 - [52] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Edited by: Tobias Sjodin on 11/01/2009 13:16:38 Originally by: Jack Jombardo Minmatar, clueless example. Passive-Shild-Tank Hurrican >>>> Active-Armor-Tank Hurrican vor PvE And that's with 6 LOW and just 4 MED slots. Even some Amarr Ships are far better shild-tanked then Armor (Arbitrator for excample). Fixed it for you. Hurricane without gyros... :facepalm: Shield tanked arbitrator? WTF... go away Even if you don't like it, it works very well! And shild-tank Hurrican with 3 Gyros in low is even a better tank then a armor-tanked one perfect for any level 3 mission and 0.0 ratting. Close-minder like you allways just see dam PvP - but that's only A SMALL PART of EvE! PvE does not need any wep/scram/mwd in med. [Arbitrator, New Setup 1] [low] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II [med] Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II Heat Dissipation Amplifier II [rig] Core Defence Field Purger I Core Defence Field Purger I Core Defence Field Purger I 262 FULL PASSIVE omni pur T1/T2 fitting No, I do not care if this is any good for PvP! It works very well for PvE and that's what it's used for! Same for Hurrican, max 490 PASSIVE omni-deffens with shild-tank. Still 215 omni-deff with 3*Gyros. Now, if anyone ask for shild-tank-buff ... please tell me HOW the hell I get 490 deffens while armor-tanking the Hurrican just with T1/T2 stuff! If you like a shild-tank-buff ... Well, first make armor-tanking as strong as shild allready IS ;).
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.11 16:46:00 - [53] Originally by: Tank CEO IS CALDARI MISSILE BOATS BALANCED? ARE SHIELD EXTENDERS BALANCED COMPARED TO 1600MM PLATES? Yes they are. In PVE caldari tank >>>> everyone else. So in pvp shield tank suck. In pvp : why do you think Matars did tanked speed in pvp ? Because they could, and shield tanking suck. Now both suck. And especially for us, who have one medslot less than you. Look to titan to see the philosophy : - Amarr : cap bonus, 8 tank slots - Caldari : shield bonus, 8 tank slots - Gallente : armor bonus, 7 tank slots - Minmatr : "no lag" bonus, 7 tank slots Your race tanks as much as any other race, if not more. Show numbers, I'll show Matari's. Your ships tank a lot more than matars, beleive me.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.11 17:09:00 - [54] Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 11/01/2009 17:14:13 Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Edited by: Tobias Sjodin on 11/01/2009 13:16:38 Originally by: Jack Jombardo Minmatar, clueless example. Passive-Shild-Tank Hurrican >>>> Active-Armor-Tank Hurrican vor PvE And that's with 6 LOW and just 4 MED slots. Even some Amarr Ships are far better shild-tanked then Armor (Arbitrator for excample). Fixed it for you. Hurricane without gyros... :facepalm: Shield tanked arbitrator? WTF... go away If you take the brute tank numbers, for example for pve, he's right. * Passive All skill 5 : low- 6x shield power relay med- 2x lse 2 2x invul 2 rig- 3x core defence -> tank 768dps, for 11m16 * Active armor low- 2x MAR2 2x EANM 2 1x 1600 rolled 1x damage control rig- 3x nanobot -> tanks 344 for 1m11 and can fit enough ewar to pvp + med electro cap booster+800 (4m35 with cap boosters in theory but size of cargo is an issue). 344 is 3 pvp fregate, not all skills 5. If you look max dps, the hurricane on par other tiers btw, since he lost a turret (it was suposed to be a gank ship... It was nerfed and other weren't. nvm CCP ). It can't tank as much as other bc tier 2. Fetchez la vache !
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.01.11 17:27:00 - [55] Edited by: James Lyrus on 11/01/2009 17:28:52 I think missiles got a bit too much 'adjustment' last patch actually. I quite like the general principle that MWD sig bloom offsets the speedboost some what, but I find it rather saddening that a heavy missile won't hit a cruiser for full damage, and HAMs are even worse. Especially as you can't use Guided missile precision/implants/boosters on HAMs. That's like ... making motion prediction only apply to long range guns. Lacking a 'large plate' sized shield extender is somewhat bothersome though. An XL Extender I think would do quite nicelyk, provided it's fittings were suitably large - (By which I mean almost impossible to fit on a BC)
Mire Stoude Cash Money Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.11 17:34:00 - [56] Did you forget that shields regenerate without the help of any repairer and to repair them in a station costs the shield tanker nothing?
Myra2007 Shafrak Industries	Posted - 2009.01.11 17:35:00 - [57] Originally by: Sky Marshal Edited by: Sky Marshal on 11/01/2009 14:34:37 Yes but Caldari ships are always slower and less agility than any ship of all races, so same with plates I often see fleet-fitted Megathrons go more fast than my Rokh. Bolded part is wrong. Caldari got their agility boosted about a year ago iirc. They are among the top places when it comes to agility.
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.11 18:16:00 - [58] Edited by: Sky Marshal on 11/01/2009 18:24:37 Originally by: Mire Stoude Did you forget that shields regenerate without the help of any repairer and to repair them in a station costs the shield tanker nothing? Did you forget that shields don't have a buffer with some resists ? And, do you know how much it regenerates really ? On a non-passive ship like the Rokh, with a standard fleet fit and according to EFT, it is less than 30 Hp/s, at peak level (~30% Shield) so less if you have or less or more, like 70% Shield for exemple. Generally, ingame, I don't even take care of this parameter as it changes nothing. The influence of the passive regen is over-estimated by armor tankers. Quote: Bolded part is wrong. Caldari got their agility boosted about a year ago iirc. They are among the top places when it comes to agility. Thanks for this information. I will check this. Quote: If you like a shild-tank-buff ... Well, first make armor-tanking as strong as shild allready IS ;). Woah, a real EFT Warrior.................. Just leave EFT one minute and try to think before post this kind of fail-fit please, as fit 3 Rigs of 12M Each on a Cruiser can be serious. Or, try to do the same thing, with the Caracal, and don't forget drones... Let me guess : 50% less DPS, one medium drone only, no able to fit all launcher slots (well, with Assault, you can, but less DPS than Heavys), and same less defence. At least, it will probably have more EHP... The problem is not Shield on Hurricane, Myrmidon or others ships with many low slots. Just read again the topic.
Hatt0ri Hanz0	Posted - 2009.01.11 18:22:00 - [59] Originally by: Vaal Erit Oh wow. What an unintelligent, noob post. Where's my XL armor repairer? Active all resistance armor hardening module? Armor repairer boost amplifier module? WHY DOESN'T MY ARMOR PASSIVELY RECHARGE? I'M TANK CEO, I DON'T KNOW **** ABOUT GAME MECHANICS. CAPS AT THE END OF A POST MAKES ME LOOK KEWL. this this this this
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.11 18:25:00 - [60] Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 11/01/2009 18:27:39 Originally by: Sky Marshal Quote: - tanking isn't in line at all ... where is our PASSIVE-ARMOR-TANK ??? No, not just buffer, CAPLESS SELVE REPAIR! ... Always this argument ... Just check the counter-parts (Yes, we have it with a passive tank) of a Shield Power Relay, and also how work passive reload of Shield/Cap (cf Peak Reload), then think two minutes how this work in situation, before come back and admit that it is not so unfair against armor tankers. Armor tanking isn't inline at all. But as a minmatarr, I don't care, I have all skills to tank. Speed (with elite skills), Shield (medium), Armor (medium), ehp (elite), honor (elite), everything. You know me in pvp, sky. I lost a lot of ships and kill nothing. Passive tanks are usefull for pve only. There, they are usefull. Now, for pve purposes (which makes a lot in the race-to-isk-to-pvp), try to find a fit than can absorb 500 dps using medium armor modules on any ship. You can't. Passive shield tanks are at 700dps...
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.01.11 18:26:00 - [61] What I would like to see are shield extenders with some sort of -x shield recharge penalty then shield recharger modules with a bigger shield recharge bonus. That would put passive tanking back to the old days of choosing hitpoints or HP regen not getting both. Shield rechargers have mostly become useless due to all the boosts to shield extenders and I always thought it was odd when CCP changed it so shield extenders give more HP regen then shield rechargers. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
Napro Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.11 18:31:00 - [62] Oh geez man.... Whenever a Dev looks into Caldari statistics its too see whats left to nerf the crap out of. Now with this post our shield extenders are probably going to be hit with the nerfbat Thanks...
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.01.11 18:35:00 - [63] Edited by: Pottsey on 11/01/2009 18:35:27 Napro said " Now with this post our shield extenders are probably going to be hit with the nerfbat" They are not your Shield extenders in that the mods do not belong to the Caldari and are not exclusively used by them. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
Shadowsword Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.11 18:39:00 - [64] Easy fix to missile boats: a mid-slot module that increase missile speed by 40%. Extenders balanced? Hell no. Large shield extenders have far too mild fitting requirments. When you put a 1600 plate on a cruiser or BC, You pay it by downsizing your weapons. Less range and dps. That's the real penalty you pay. Less agility remain signifiant, but it doesn't even compare. Now, you fit a LSE II. 132 pg and 46 cpu. What do you sacrifice? virtually nothing, unless you use two. It needs to be around 300pg after skills are applied, imho. Some XL shield expander might be nice too, something like 3400 HP for 800 PG and 50 CPU. That's about the HP amount of a 1600 plate, but the plate doesn't regenerate it's HP. the shield expander does.
Raa Asa	Posted - 2009.01.11 18:40:00 - [65] Originally by: Napro Oh geez man.... Whenever a Dev looks into Caldari statistics its too see whats left to nerf the crap out of. ... Thanks... Falcons?
Letifer Deus A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.11 18:49:00 - [66] Edited by: Letifer Deus on 11/01/2009 18:52:14 Originally by: Tank CEO 1600mm Plate: 4,200HP - Penalty - Increased Mass - Slower Acceleration, Less Agility (lol, big whoop) Large Shield Extender: 2,625 HP, 25m Sig Bonus (on smaller ships, thats a big penalty) The agility doesn't matter much on a BS, but on a deimos, for instance, it is significant, just like the sig penalty of a LSE doesn't matter much for a BS, but is quite a significant increase for a cruiser. LSEs have (arguably) far lower fitting reqs than 1600 plates. You also have to take into account that LSEs increase shield recharge. If they were more in line with plates as far as HP boost, passive tanking would be insane. Quote: Now honestly, the point of people flying smaller ships is for the advantage of having a small ship sig.. Basically, the more extenders you fit, the easier your going to be hit by bigger ships and personally it destroys the whole point and not worth i The point is also to be fast and agile. Low sig radius doesn't help much if you can't catch any targets. extenders affect one, plates affect the other. Originally by: Tank CEO The Large-F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction is less fitting requirements, yes, but also, less shield, only 2,250 HP. I won't argue this.
Cyprus Black Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.11 19:05:00 - [67] No to both. They are fine as is. ______________ Some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.11 19:07:00 - [68] Edited by: Sky Marshal on 11/01/2009 19:09:10 Quote: Now, for pve purposes (which makes a lot in the race-to-isk-to-pvp), try to find a fit than can absorb 500 dps using medium armor modules on any ship. You can't. Passive shield tanks are at 700dps... You can, if you forget the profile "Uniform damage distribution" who calcule the Defence of the ship in EFT. > Warning : Mode EFT Warrior Enabled < Exemple, for Guristas I added a custom profile of 12% Thermic and 88% Kinetic. Make a crappy Myrmidon with 2 Medium Repairer, 2 Kinetic Hardeners and 1 EANM II and you have 560 DPS Tank with this numbers. 660 with a Damage Control II (I said : Crappy). It goes to 768 with 3 Kinetic Hardener and 1 Thermic. Still 2 Med Slots... 2 Kinetic passive shield Hardener ? With 11 hp/s shield regen and 81% Kine resist, +44 (812). Well, I suck to fit Armor tank, but after all, depending of the NPC, we don't need all resists all the time. Of course, it does crappy DPS, like the passive Drake. If I don't change the fitting of my passive Drake, who encountered "Uniform damage distribution", I have 730 instead of 628. Of course, it tanks better with Kinetic Hardener (nearly 950). So still better than Armor, but not so much. ___________________ CCP deserves only disrespect and hatred for all nerfs since Empyrean Age.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.11 19:07:00 - [69] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Now, for pve purposes (which makes a lot in the race-to-isk-to-pvp), try to find a fit than can absorb 500 dps using medium armor modules on any ship. You can't. Passive shield tanks are at 700dps... Oh? Most of my PvE fits are armour-based these days, since they're a lot easier to combine with afterburners (AB + PST runs dry in roughly no time flat). Since I can fit an AB on them, I can run circles around the bigger ships and not even need the same amount of tank — NPC Battleship can't hit me; heavy missiles, cruises and torps do sfa damage… Eg. My Myrmidon: 2x MAR II, 4x Rat-specific Hardener (divide as needed among primary and secondary damage types)… 615dps permatank for kin/therm, 727dps for em/therm. Eg. My Ishtar: 2x MAR II, 2x Rat-specific Hardener… 501dps permatank against em/therm, 869(!) permatank against kin/therm (♥ T2 resists). Sure, if I come across something that does explosive damage, I won't reach those numbers, but the same holds true for using shields against EH-heavy enemies. (Then again, I have utterly crappy damage compensation skills…). …that said, though, my full-PST fits for those ships go well beyond your stated 700dps (as in upwards of 1100 and 1700dps, respectively), so you might have a small point after all. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2009.01.11 20:09:00 - [70] shield? armor? shrug range tank is overpowered; closing in on just two >100km beam zealots in a 65m*MWD scimitar can't be done, even with a 30-45¦'ish vector. and then there's the >200km falcon ofc -.- - putting the gist back into logistics
Grarr Dexx Amarr Insidious Existence RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.11 21:46:00 - [71] Originally by: Gierling Much as I Hate to admit it, I see some of Tank's pain here. CCP has consistently decided to make Caldari play by different rules then the rest of the races and it just works less and less as time goes on. Missilles require far more hand holding to get to work right then turrets and Shield tanking is stuck in this abyss where it is utterly useless until you've spent several billion isk, at which point it pwns and pwns hard. I'm a gallente SPec but I got to think theres a better way, maybe an inertia and/or top speed penalty for extenders would work better? Oh no races are different ccp plz nerf ----- Nexus stamps of approvalÖ count: 1
Jack Jombardo Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.11 23:02:00 - [72] Originally by: Sky Marshal Woah, a real EFT Warrior.................. Just leave EFT one minute and try to think before post this kind of fail-fit please, as fit 3 Rigs of 12M Each on a Cruiser can be serious. Or, try to do the same thing, with the Caracal, and don't forget drones... Let me guess : 50% less DPS, one medium drone only, no able to fit all launcher slots (well, with Assault, you can, but less DPS than Heavys), and same less defence. At least, it will probably have more EHP... The problem is not Shield on Hurricane, Myrmidon or others ships with many low slots. Just read again the topic. I do fly this fittings while ratting/missioning. So I know they work very well from ingame. I saw corp mates flying there Caldari-ships in missions ... and hell, equal how hard I try I can NOT get any of my shiny golden Amarr-ships even close to this performance! You call me EFT-warrior? Well, YOU are the real EFT-warrior! You see low DPS there but hell, my 1000+ DPS Geddon or my 500 DPS Habinger end up with 1/10 EFFECTIVE DPS against Gurista/Angels/Serphentis just becouse I can not switch my damage types! You see 1800 plates ... but you don't see the low slot they need ... the low slot Caldari can use for BC! And you do not see the oversized repair moduls ... larg armor-repper for Habinger? LOL? IMPOSIBLE! Larg shild-repair is most likely standart for Cruiser/BC :(. Armor-Boos-Amplifirer ... somehow I must missed em :/. You wan't Heavy-Missiles for Caracel? Well, Let's use Heavy-Beams for Omen ... WTF? Can't even fit 4? 3 max, not enough PG for the 4th! Better not talk about all 5 :(. Oversized shild, oversized weapons. And you ask for a buff for real? How much buff? Maybe Sieg-launchers and XL-extender for your Caracel?
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2009.01.11 23:08:00 - [73] Originally by: Pottsey What I would like to see are shield extenders with some sort of -x shield recharge penalty then shield recharger modules with a bigger shield recharge bonus. That would put passive tanking back to the old days of choosing hitpoints or HP regen not getting both. Shield rechargers have mostly become useless due to all the boosts to shield extenders and I always thought it was odd when CCP changed it so shield extenders give more HP regen then shield rechargers. Best idea posted so far I think, rationalize it with something like larger shield capacitor cannot recharge as fast <insert more technobabble>. To be able to fit a decent EHP tank and tackle on the larger caldari boats would be awesome, and you might finally be able to fit shields and ecm on a scorpion/widow
Trader20	Posted - 2009.01.11 23:25:00 - [74] Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: Trader20 The funny thing is if you took drones out of the fight the torp raven does more dps with 3x range against a mega. So Caldari bs-level pvp is just fine. Yes, and if you took missiles out the fight, the megathron would outdamage a dreadnought against a POS. Because clearly, when you ignore part of a ships weapon systems, you get a balanced comparison. Yea because I mega is more of a drone oriented ship then a hybrid, u dum dum. Just saying turret for turret the raven has more dps.
DownTwisTeD	Posted - 2009.01.11 23:26:00 - [75] caldari ships other then then the indy are real easy to catch.. so yea tanking is very important to them i would think.. you are dam right on bigger ships easily hitting smaller caldari ships too well.. i really like your idea.. i am freaken ****ed at ccp. i worked real hard on my caldari ships witch took a lot of time to work these skills because you have to balance them all to work these ships well.. i wont more cpu/grid. in most of the solo setups for these ships i cant even fit cap boosters & keep any kind of real ability to hit hard or lock down ships..
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.11 23:32:00 - [76] Originally by: Dr Sheepbringer Armor > Alloy of sorts (depending on what you use), that can or not, be radar deflective etc. It's only mass. Shield > energy, shows up like a xmas tree on radars. Armor ships should be slow, but more stealthy. Shield ships should be faster, but glow like torches. You clearly do not know what a radar is, or any of the underlying theory!! :P In fact its oposite. Radar dedetcs objects :P
Jack Jombardo Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.11 23:56:00 - [77] PS just for the Caracel example. Caracel: - 1 * LSE II med - 5 * Heavy Missile Launcher II Omen: - 1 * 800mm Rainforce Steel II (yes, no rolled becouse just T1/T2 allowed) (little bit less boost then the LSE II) - 3 * Heavy Beam Laser II with Radio crystals (would like to fitt all 5 but well, not posible :/) Caracel 5759 shield, 125 (eft) dps (all types), 126,6 max optimal KM, 223 speed, 3,3s aligne time, 170 signatur CPU and PG left to fitt more stuff Omen 5041 armor, 53 (eft) dps (just em), 48+10 max optimal KM, 226 speed, 4,6s aligne time, 125 signatur CPU left but PG 972,5/912,5 -> allready need fitting-mods for more PG :/. now, Omen is 3 m/s faster, alignes slower, as less sig, does FAR less DPS at max range, as FAR less max range, can NOT fitt all of it's 5 weapons, can NOT fitt anythink else with the oversized Heavys and this 800mm Plate. + if the Omen somehow managed to get close a singel NEUT can disable tank AND weapons! + with just this one LSE II the Caracel allready as 21 passive defense ... one more mod and you full-tank the 53 Omen-DPS :/. While even one of the Amarr EWs doesn't effect the Caracel at all -> Tracking Desruptor And the second doesn't effect passive-shield-tanks -> NOS/NEUT So: Passive-Shield-Tank with NEUT+TD Caracel == 100% disable this shiny Omen No tank, no Rep, no Gang anymore for my shiny little Omen :(. /ironi on Yep, I realy understand why shild-tanks are bad /ironi off
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.12 00:04:00 - [78] Radio crystals? Use soem decent ammo if you want to comapare.
Jack Jombardo Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.12 00:21:00 - [79] Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Radio crystals? Use soem decent ammo if you want to comapare. Multifrequ 3HBL II == 126 (eft) DPS (em/therm only), 15+10 range compared Caracel with 5 HAM II == 156 (eft) DPS (all kind), 30,4 range still win for the Caracel even with 4* HPulseL II (does not fitt! not enough PG again!!) omen 193 (eft) dps (em/therm only), 7,5+5 range using just 3* HPulseL II (does fitt) omen 145 (eft) dps (em/therm only), 7,5+r range WOW, finaly it fitts with 3 out of 5 turret-slots used BUT - far wors range - not much space for more stuff (853,7/912,5 PG used allread) - just two damage types - to get a compareble tank you need low-slots which the Caracel can use for Balistics - can be disabled with TD/NEUT (Caracel is imun against both) all over: NO! Shield+Missel do not need any buff! They work and most times far better then armor+turrets do. Just stop to use oversized moduls ;)
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.12 00:33:00 - [80] Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 12/01/2009 00:33:38 Or maby the Omen just plain sucks? :P (I think it do). The caracal ain't much better. I feel safe to engage any caracal with any firgs actually :P. I was refering to the Aurora ammo for the Beams. Rockets on the other hand pretty much bites now, and they need a boost. HM and HAM is ok. Cruise missiles is pretty much useless in PvP (as they have always been). Trops is ok. Light missiles is ok.
Jack Jombardo Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.12 00:49:00 - [81] Edited by: Jack Jombardo on 12/01/2009 00:50:24 Both are realy realy hard to fit. Yes ;). But for fleet-OPs I'd rather go with the Caracel (sniper/buffer setup) then with a Omen (not able to fitt sniper+buffer at all). Solo PvP the Omen might be a bit better ... but still, most other ships will win. Omen v Caracel ... highly depending on who get's first hit and range. But even then with fittings that fit (pur T2 without IMPs) Caracel kinetik 240 eft-DPS at 30,4 km against Omen em/therm 256 eft-DPS at 6,8+3,8 km +16 eft-DPS isn't that much :/
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.12 01:09:00 - [82] Edited by: Sky Marshal on 12/01/2009 01:10:59 Originally by: Jack Jombardo You see low DPS there but hell, my 1000+ DPS Geddon or my 500 DPS Habinger end up with 1/10 EFFECTIVE DPS against Gurista/Angels/Serphentis just becouse I can not switch my damage types! In a way you can do all damage, but it would require to cross-train all guns ^^ Ok, I have to admit that Caldari have an advantage for PVE. As you recognize it yourself, you see everything in a PVE view. You don't see the med slot that tackle modules need in Caldari ships. Also, all Shield boosters and Amplifier require Cap and med slots, and reload Cap need med slots... Or low slots if we use Capacitor Power Relay, but BCs need them... Yes, it is not great too for us. In PVE we will roxx, in PVP we will have an hard time because Armor tankers can find more easily a compromise between tackle/gank/tank. Also, Heavy Beams aren't better on a BC, like HAM more easy to fit on a Drake ? Originally by: Jack Jombardo Curious fits 48 + 10, 53 DPS... So only one Heavy Beam II and drones. Curious, I can fit 2 in my crappy fit with 2 Med Repair. Also, I guess you should try Pulse or forget Heavy for Quad ones. Don't try to have the same range than Caldari, it is impossible ^^ Also, I suggest to compare the Omen with the Moa, more accurate as they are the same type (guns platform).
Jesslyn Daggererux Gallente SRIUS BISNIS	Posted - 2009.01.12 01:14:00 - [83] Originally by: SniperWo1f well as a counter point to what you said last night a corp mate in a drake passive tanked aggroed three loot thieves . they then returned in a domi-sleipnir-scorp and couldn't kill him . now we are talking about two battleships and a command ship not being able to destroy a single tech 1 BC . Deos that seem fair? hey! lol that was us. okay sleip had some dps, but my domi only had drones, so not exactly a fair comparison there. the scorp...was a scorp. that and he had to warp out sometimes because he wouldnt deagress to the nighthawk. now what can be said is the drake tanked my gank brutix and the sleip. i admire you for bringing up this topic about it seeming unfair, but on the same coin the drake sucks. they cant tank tackle AND do damage, it just doesnt work. maybe they can tank pretty good and have a disruptor, but throw in a web too and their tank becomes nothing. and then if they have damage mods ontop of that it just becomes a big failboat almost every time. armor and shield tanking are very very different. theres not an easy comparison, but they are as balenced as they can be i believe. i think the sig radius thing is very fair. it even goes so far as to make sense. the armor plates thing is once again fair and makes sense. theres nothing to discuss. what drawback would shield users rather have? how about....a targeting range nerf when you use extenders. there ya go. 10% for each extender. fits in the game because a thicker shield barrier than the ship is made for messes with your targeting systems. there ya go. ccp, get on it.
Jack Jombardo Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.12 01:30:00 - [84] Originally by: Sky Marshal 48 + 10, 53 DPS... So only one Heavy Beam II and drones. Curious, I can fit 2 in my crappy fit with 2 Med Repair. Also, I guess you should try Pulse or forget Heavy for Quad ones. Don't try to have the same range than Caldari, it is impossible ^^ Also, I suggest to compare the Omen with the Moa, more accurate as they are the same type (guns platform). Erm, no drones at all for all my excampels. 3* Heavy Beam II with longest range T1 crystals. And I'd never try to fitt oversize guns/moduls for real setups ;). Used this Heavy Beams just to compare them with Heavy Launcher. 5Focused Puls II work with half-dezent all over fitting, still VERY hard to fitt! But then ... Omen sucks, Arbi 4thewin g*.
KiaTader	Posted - 2009.01.12 01:41:00 - [85] I think we should buff drone dps to compensate. Maybe a new skill, like more tracking or a skill that makes drone damage ignore % of resists (like Ignores 2% of targets resists per level)!
Malthros Zenobia The Cold Wind Foundation	Posted - 2009.01.12 03:31:00 - [86] Originally by: Shadowsword Now, you fit a LSE II. 132 pg and 46 cpu. What do you sacrifice? virtually nothing, unless you use two. It needs to be around 300pg after skills are applied, imho. Because Caldari ships have lots of grid already, and more than one type of launcher for long/short range per ship class, right? Your mega can use ions, electrons or neutrons, a Raen will use torp launchers, and you'll find they're all the same type. How'd you like to only have 125mm/200/350mm railguns, and no more ion/neutron blasters? Entirely different designs, and the NH will be completely unable to passive tank with your terrible idea.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.01.12 03:40:00 - [87] Originally by: SniperWo1f well as a counter point to what you said last night a corp mate in a drake passive tanked aggroed three loot thieves . they then returned in a domi-sleipnir-scorp and couldn't kill him . now we are talking about two battleships and a command ship not being able to destroy a single tech 1 BC . Deos that seem fair? ****ty domi/sleip/scorp combo. or were they set up with neuts and low damage to take out ravens, and a full passive drake? but damn, they really should have had the damage to get a drake.
Buzz Lightqueer The Scope	Posted - 2009.01.12 05:38:00 - [88] Originally by: Bellum Eternus I vote NO. Passive shield tanks are way overpowered, and missiles are too good. They need to be nerfed. Says the guy who complains about not being able to kill everything in his mega...
Tank CEO Caldari Dark Cartel	Posted - 2009.01.12 06:39:00 - [89] Wow bro, are you guys really going to compare fitting between Large Shield Extanders and 1600mm plates? Its like comparing X-large shield boosters to Large armor reps. Caldari have a very small PG output and a higher CPU output. Therefore, Large shield extenders take more CPU then a plate would. LSE : 46 tf, 165 MW / 1600mm: 33 tf / 575 MW The reason why LSE has such low MW is because of the fact that long ago, CCP nerfed caldari ships powergrid. Have you guys forgoten you have like double the amount of powergrid you guys have in tanking'type ships? Teamspeak Rumble Recording! Vote for homepage
Tank CEO Caldari Dark Cartel	Posted - 2009.01.12 07:43:00 - [90] How about we swap penalties. LSE get the increased Mass = less agility, less effective mwd, and you get the increased sig. Would you agree to that? When you start getting pwned by bigger ships and having a 300 sig you'll start posting on these forums to have it changed back. Also, would just like to add that the crappy shield recharge we get - for example, a Caracal with 2 large shield extenders has 8,500 Shields. 27 peak recharge rate at 30% shields... wow... in any real pvp battle on TQ, this shield recharge rate would prolly wont generate 200 shields if that if you are made primary in a fleet battle or even a small fight, say 5v5.
Edward Tang	Posted - 2009.01.12 11:01:00 - [91] Everything is fine. Leave the balance alone^^
Shadowsword Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.12 11:41:00 - [92] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: Shadowsword Now, you fit a LSE II. 132 pg and 46 cpu. What do you sacrifice? virtually nothing, unless you use two. It needs to be around 300pg after skills are applied, imho. Because Caldari ships have lots of grid already, and more than one type of launcher for long/short range per ship class, right? So? That's precisely the point, you shouldn't put LSE without making hard fitting choices. But because current LSEs give so much bang for the buck, it's become a no-brainer choice, to the point some of you have a hard time thinking about ship setups without them. That's a pretty glaring proof of LSE being overpowered. Try fitting some cruisers or BC with a pair of 1600 plates, or even one, before you post again about dual-LSE extenders being fine on shield boats.
Undertow Latheus	Posted - 2009.01.12 11:57:00 - [93] I vote NO! You might get a bigger sig radius but you also automatically get a sustained tank, it's ridiculous that you can get over 1000 dps tank by using LSE's and other mods.
StainLessStealRat Firman AB 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.12 12:03:00 - [94] Agree with the crap bonus part,Give a ROF bonus or a straight out damage bonus. Stacking on resists is crap aswell but extenders are fine IMO. My quick take on caldari ships Drake- is a good pvp ship at last. Eagle-i am seeing more and more of them in small gangs and they do well. Cerb-fly a drake no real reason to fly cerb atm. Onxy-Awsome. Raven-usless in PvP. Falcon-Great but over rated complaind about mostly by people who would of died anyway. Blackbird-best EW t1 cruiser. All other cruisers-sucky useless things. Frigates-all crap. Rokh- No idea TBH never flown it or seen it flown well but i guess it has to be be a master plan that i am missing. AF's-Getting better.
Kirtan Loor Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.01.12 12:21:00 - [95] No. Shield extenders are good. You being understanding how good they are after fitting 3 damage mods, 1DC on your ship and still have a decent tank.
fkingfurious	Posted - 2009.01.12 12:25:00 - [96] You really do seem to have lost touch and the typical style of a short sighted whine you've managed to ignore all the balances that already exist to most of the problems you originally posted. Sig radius increase per launcher- Compared to cap nerfs or velocity nerfs or shield HP nerfs per turret. Already balanced. Speed damage reductions- Clearly u never use turrets. Medium calibre turrets are now uttelry ****ed against frigates EVEN WHEN THEYRE WEBBED. You're example of pulses is classic cos they are actually the most vulnerable wepaon system to close orbing frigs. Lowest DPS? Outright wrong. Torp Raven is the highest DPS'er in game and the Drake manages to beat out a lot of the competition for high DPS in the BC class too. Worst ship bonuses? Only the Caracal is completely limited to kinetic damage. Raven has pure RoF (giving it one of the best damage bonuses in game bar none, 33% dps on any damage type is epic) Cerb also has an RoF bonus and the Kessie makes up for doing the most damage with Kinetics by having a 50% damage bonus. No tackle mods (as repeated ad nauseum) is balanced by no restrictions on damage mods. Caldari missile boats are NOT terrible fleet ships, you're just an idiot. The Cerb and Raven make the single best anti-falcon boats in the game, and operate equally effectively against similar long range support. And the great thing is that they suffer nothing for using the same setup against closer targets. Genuine versatility. And oh yeah, you whinged about Fury missiles hitting your sig. You entirly forgot about the fact that they are now literally the only ammo type with a real dps improvement over faction ammo (something in the region of 10%). When they got this massive damage buff they also the sig penalty, proof that you never get something for nothing. I would snap CCP's hands off for a similar boost to high damage tech2 turret ammo. Back to ebay with you.
fivetide humidyear Gallente EXCESS10N	Posted - 2009.01.12 12:45:00 - [97] Originally by: Bellum Eternus I vote NO. Passive shield tanks are way overpowered, and missiles are too good. They need to be nerfed. very much this.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar DEATH'S LEGION Red Box.	Posted - 2009.01.12 13:22:00 - [98] Signature radius addition on shield extenders is somewhat odd indeed, I mean it is perfectly reasonable that stronger shields increase the signature that turrets are tracking, but why the hell should stronger shields increase the damage I'm taking from missiles? The same goes for MWD using ships, it is logical that gunships would track them better, but missiles shouldnt do more damage just because he has a larger signature. In fact, missile damage should imo be computed against base signature of a target, not effective signature with fitting and penalties.
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.12 14:03:00 - [99] Originally by: Shadowsword Now, you fit a LSE II. 132 pg and 46 cpu. What do you sacrifice? virtually nothing, unless you use two. It needs to be around 300pg after skills are applied, imho. [...] So? That's precisely the point, you shouldn't put LSE without making hard fitting choices. But because current LSEs give so much bang for the buck, it's become a no-brainer choice, to the point some of you have a hard time thinking about ship setups without them. That's a pretty glaring proof of LSE being overpowered. Try fitting some cruisers or BC with a pair of 1600 plates, or even one, before you post again about dual-LSE extenders being fine on shield boats. Dammit, it is a alliance mate so I can't be disrespectful same if I read this... First, try to compare one module with his equivalent, it would be more credible. The equivalent of the LSE II is the 800MM Rolled Tungsten Plate I, not the 1600MM. Just to be sure : 800MM : 23 CPU, 200 PW, + 2100 LSE : 46 CPU, 165 PW, + 2625 Less PG, more HP I have to admit, but more CPU who are required for electronic modules (Warp Disruptor, ...) and our launchers use more CPU than yours (in the invert way, guns use PG. Each type of game has his problems). This HP difference compensate a few the fact that Armor has better base resists and a buffer. I guess I can be wrong, but fit 800MM on cruisers is possible, isn't it ? This difference in the requirement fitting don't permit to make "no-brain" fitting if we want be able to tackle. I don't count hours of thinking for my fits because it is more hard to find a compromise between dps/gank/tank than an Armor ship (I want a Zealot...). ___________________ CCP deserves only disrespect and hatred for all nerfs since Empyrean Age.
Bit Steen	Posted - 2009.01.12 14:06:00 - [100] Its not a Caldari problem. Its a problem with missiles vs. guns, srmor vs. shield, low slots vs. mid slots and PvP vs. PvE. This all belong together and a single comparison of one attribute says nothing. What i'm thinking is that ccp tries to make the missiles work like Guns. Maybe we see some "Insta-Hit-Missile" in the future . I'm specialist in PvE and with my missile skill points i dont have any problem in LVL 4 missions with my Cruise Missiles. I dont have problems to fit a shield tank for lvl 4 Mission. But would i use Missiles in PvP? Would i choose shield over armor in PvP? And at the end sometimes we have a problem with low and med slots. If a support module like Hacking is only avaiable for med slots or for low slots, then you can run into trouble with your ship or race, if there is no other ship available. Balancing in EvE is hard work and very complex.
Number 1	Posted - 2009.01.12 14:47:00 - [101] Having 5 million in missles and almost max skills in shields, i feel the pain somewhat. Torps have max range of around 20KM, anything more and they just dont hit. Cruise are pretty good for me. They are pretty good for speed, but like has been said before, are just to slow compared to rails and projectiles. Unless within 20km. The nuff to missles seems a bit pointless to me. Making the tech 2 torps not even worth training. Why they even nurfed these is somthing only CCP know the answer to. You get wrecking shots for over 1500 damage...missiles do not have this. I can be hit for 1100 each burst off good skilled projectile pilot..but i hit the same each time, how is that fair?
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.12 14:50:00 - [102] Originally by: Tank CEO How about we swap penalties. LSE get the increased Mass = less agility, less effective mwd, and you get the increased sig. ? Thats really stupid. Energy don't have mass, it makes no sense wahtsoever. Shields are fine imo, and a tad better then armor at high skills, but there is also a lot of skills needed to do shield tanking properly.
Grek Forto Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.01.12 14:54:00 - [103] People use LSE?
Jin Entres Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2009.01.12 15:02:00 - [104] Originally by: Number 1 Having 5 million in missles and almost max skills in shields, i feel the pain somewhat. Torps have max range of around 20KM, anything more and they just dont hit. Cruise are pretty good for me. They are pretty good for speed, but like has been said before, are just to slow compared to rails and projectiles. Unless within 20km. The nuff to missles seems a bit pointless to me. Making the tech 2 torps not even worth training. Why they even nurfed these is somthing only CCP know the answer to. You get wrecking shots for over 1500 damage...missiles do not have this. I can be hit for 1100 each burst off good skilled projectile pilot..but i hit the same each time, how is that fair? What a misguided post. For starters this thread is not about torps. But let's see: only hit to 20km? Lol. Where are your 5 million skillpoints? With 4/4 skills at BS 4 you'll get 24.7 km on the Raven. With 5/5/5 it's 30.4km. And hey you can switch to javelins, reaching 45 km. You have nothing to complain about when it comes to range. Try actually flying a blaster or ac boat, you'll learn what falloff really means. You can just sit and spam missiles without caring about getting up close or staying there. Same goes with tracking: you may not get wreckings but you also don't scratch or lightly hit, you always hit. When average damage is compared, that's a lot better it turns out. Oh and you get to choose your damage type. It was a troll, wasn't it? ----------------------
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.12 15:05:00 - [105] Originally by: Grek Forto People use LSE? No, they are just a myth!
Number 1	Posted - 2009.01.12 15:07:00 - [106] Originally by: Jin Entres Originally by: Number 1 Having 5 million in missles and almost max skills in shields, i feel the pain somewhat. Torps have max range of around 20KM, anything more and they just dont hit. Cruise are pretty good for me. They are pretty good for speed, but like has been said before, are just to slow compared to rails and projectiles. Unless within 20km. The nuff to missles seems a bit pointless to me. Making the tech 2 torps not even worth training. Why they even nurfed these is somthing only CCP know the answer to. You get wrecking shots for over 1500 damage...missiles do not have this. I can be hit for 1100 each burst off good skilled projectile pilot..but i hit the same each time, how is that fair? What a misguided post. For starters this thread is not about torps. But let's see: only hit to 20km? Lol. Where are your 5 million skillpoints? With 4/4 skills at BS 4 you'll get 24.7 km on the Raven. With 5/5/5 it's 30.4km. And hey you can switch to javelins, reaching 45 km. You have nothing to complain about when it comes to range. Try actually flying a blaster or ac boat, you'll learn what falloff really means. You can just sit and spam missiles without caring about getting up close or staying there. Same goes with tracking: you may not get wreckings but you also don't scratch or lightly hit, you always hit. When average damage is compared, that's a lot better it turns out. Oh and you get to choose your damage type. It was a troll, wasn't it? Far from it. Posting as bored at work... The point i was try to make was that each has a plus and a minus these days. Shields are powerful, but require high skills to keep running for any long periods Armour reping is the easiest to do, but alot harder to master correctly.
Lindsay Logan	Posted - 2009.01.12 15:10:00 - [107] I disagree, armor tanks is not harder to manage correctly then shiled tanks.
Jack Jombardo Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.12 15:12:00 - [108] Originally by: Grek Forto People use LSE? It's not LSD but LSE ;)
Bit Steen	Posted - 2009.01.12 15:13:00 - [109] Originally by: Jin Entres [ What a misguided post. For starters this thread is not about torps. But let's see: only hit to 20km? Lol. Where are your 5 million skillpoints? With 4/4 skills at BS 4 you'll get 24.7 km on the Raven. With 5/5/5 it's 30.4km. And hey you can switch to javelins, reaching 45 km. You have nothing to complain about when it comes to range. Try actually flying a blaster or ac boat, you'll learn what falloff really means. You can just sit and spam missiles without caring about getting up close or staying there. Same goes with tracking: you may not get wreckings but you also don't scratch or lightly hit, you always hit. When average damage is compared, that's a lot better it turns out. Oh and you get to choose your damage type. It was a troll, wasn't it? Hm, when i read your post - its hard to understand why a lot of pilots prefere Gunnery in PvP and not missiles
Dasalt Istgut	Posted - 2009.01.12 15:26:00 - [110] Originally by: Repelsteeltje I dunno, i like caldari, Good ships: Drake, Cerberus, Raven, Scorpion, Falcon, hawk, crow, manticore... Yeah pretty good in my book. Issue is they have so many ships that are utterly, utterly worthless in PVP. e.g. - Caracal Moa Ferox Drake isn't totally ****ed but its got some nasty issues owing to the failure that is HAMs/HMLs. Raptor Merlin/Condor/etc. Eagle (assuming you don't have a whole squad of eagles). Hawk Manticore sucks, not sure what you're talking about. Not enough CPU. Basically all their sub-battleship non-ECM ships and many of their T2 line are useless, misguided, abominations of ships.
Uncle Smokey	Posted - 2009.01.12 15:27:00 - [111] No, as i find no problem with missiles, and think that shield tanking is quite well balanced. But, i'd like that extenders's signature radius boost would be dropped downwards for ships that use them as a buffer only. Dont know how it would do with balance though.
fatherted1989	Posted - 2009.01.12 16:10:00 - [112] If HAMs actually worked well, then the whole 30km pvp range thing wouldn't be a problem. hell a passive drake with 7 HAM's could do some serious damage in pvp if CCP actually made using HAM's worthwhile.
Karl Luckner	Posted - 2009.01.12 16:13:00 - [113] Tanking and its principles is mostly ok in my opinion, the problem are the ships. Armortanking ships are usually lighter and have lower base mass compared to caldari counterparts. By fitting plates, things are more or less evened out. Where is the lower base sigradius of caldari ships ? For comparison: the Rokh has higher base mass AND sigradius compared to an abbadon-how stupid is that ? It is even heavier and has a sigradius larger then the Hyperion- a ship larger then the caldari carrier ! Regarding XL shield extender and armor repper: If we accept that 2x LAR is more or less the same as XL SB + SBA in repair amount and cap efficency, the the XL AR should have the same repair amount and cap consumption. This would pretty much give active armor tanked ships an additional lowslot. In turn the XL shield extender should replace 2xLSE, and thus free up a medium slot. I like the idea, but certainly it would need some testing, to see how this impacts balance. Hyperion could become really badass if I think about it. Missiles-well I think they need adjustment. Especially the unguided versions have a considerable problem. Guided missile precision doesn't reduce their explosion radius. As a result you can't hit your own ship class for good damage. This isn't only bad for Caldari-look at the Malediction to see how broken the new missile stuff is.
Lindsay Logan	Posted - 2009.01.12 16:30:00 - [114] Originally by: Jack Jombardo Edited by: Jack Jombardo on 12/01/2009 15:17:28 Originally by: Grek Forto People use LSE? It's not LSD but LSE ;) Originally by: Lindsay Logan I disagree, armor tanks is not harder to manage correctly then shiled tanks. They are as you have to chose between DPS-mods, speed-mods, tank-mods, (sensor-/tracking-/whatever-) and allways run into PG problems when used with guns (at last Laser with there redicules PG-need). And as you get the boost at the end of the cicle but energi is used at the begin of the cycle ... well, you need a feeling for the right timing ;). And it's getting more difficult as bigger the reppers are (more energie, longer cycle). Shield: need boost? activate booster! energie used/shild given. Wait. Easy going. Well, Shiled tanking might use mid slots, but you still need to balance tackling gear, shiled gerar, you need to know you have energy to activate shiled mods. Sure you get a boost right there and then, thats teh advantage of shiled tanking, but armor tanking is not harder. Infat to properly shield tanks a ship you need to know what mods should be used, and what needs to be sacreficed in order to get a decent tank.
Muad' Dib Gallente Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2009.01.12 16:33:00 - [115] Edited by: Muad'' Dib on 12/01/2009 16:34:56 Originally by: James Lyrus Edited by: James Lyrus on 11/01/2009 17:28:52 I think missiles got a bit too much 'adjustment' last patch actually. I quite like the general principle that MWD sig bloom offsets the speedboost some what, but I find it rather saddening that a heavy missile won't hit a cruiser for full damage, and HAMs are even worse. Especially as you can't use Guided missile precision/implants/boosters on HAMs. That's like ... making motion prediction only apply to long range guns. Lacking a 'large plate' sized shield extender is somewhat bothersome though. An XL Extender I think would do quite nicelyk, provided it's fittings were suitably large - (By which I mean almost impossible to fit on a BC) What is disturbing is that the best post in this pvp thread - except for the OP's, comes from someone who lost a Moros mining in a belt, and was in ISS leadership. Heh, but i guess it doesn't matter how stupid ppl are, if there are enough of them. :) PS: Except Shadowsword. :)
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.12 16:33:00 - [116] Originally by: Dasalt Istgut Originally by: Repelsteeltje I dunno, i like caldari, Good ships: Drake, Cerberus, Raven, Scorpion, Falcon, hawk, crow, manticore... Yeah pretty good in my book. Issue is they have so many ships that are utterly, utterly worthless in PVP. e.g. - Caracal Moa Ferox Drake isn't totally ****ed but its got some nasty issues owing to the failure that is HAMs/HMLs. Raptor Merlin/Condor/etc. Eagle (assuming you don't have a whole squad of eagles). Hawk Manticore sucks, not sure what you're talking about. Not enough CPU. Basically all their sub-battleship non-ECM ships and many of their T2 line are useless, misguided, abominations of ships. Imo all stealth bombers suck :P. I would fly a T1 frig over anyone of them any day. And for the Drake: HM's may not be terribly good, HAM however is very good. Keep in mind that any comedy lol fit passive Drake sucks regardless for PvP. Caldari do not have that many good PvP ships tho, that I agree on. Only their T2 and BS(/cap) ships do very well.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.01.12 17:44:00 - [117] Originally by: Sidus Isaacs And for the Drake: HM's may not be terribly good, HAM however is very good. Keep in mind that any comedy lol fit passive Drake sucks regardless for PvP. HM Drake got a decent boost in QR actually. The general slowing down of ships meant that HM range became more meaningful, and it now has the ability to damage fast ships. If you're looking for a do-it-all, ganking, tanking, tackling BC, then HAM Drake is still the one, but in more dispersed, tactical fights, particularly with larger gangs or where you don't want to or can't get within web range, then HMs are a useful tool. But just remember - MWD and DC are essential, your other lowslots should be BCS (as fittings permit), SPRs and shield rechargers are never to be used and passive hardeners should only be used if you don't have the CPU for active ones.
Tank CEO Caldari Dark Cartel	Posted - 2009.01.12 20:00:00 - [118] Caracal - Kinetic dmg bonus Cerb - Kinetic Dmg bonus Nighthawk - kinetic damage bonus... Those are main missile boats wouldn't you say? Raven and Marauder do not have these bonuses and im not really complaining about them. Let me ask you something. Ravens have the most DPS right, with Seige right, but are limited to 25km right... Now, Arent ravens always been generally useless in fleet battles for the mere fact that they take so long to hit and by the time they do, the target is gone.. lolz... Also keep in mind, how the hell you expect caldari to get in rrange? Fit a mwd? LOLz, for caldari LOLZ, o yea and u need a target painter and NOW a web because anything going over 50m/s , including a battleship, your going to have your dps is reduced. Whatever, I don't care, im specing a new race, you can shove your caldari piece of **** race up your ass, this is a 6 year character quiting caldari ships because they suck compared to others... If you people don't see my logic, then no matter what I say and how matter how many points I show you, you will never agree, so im not going to post here anymore, its there, its out there for the devs to see, hopefully they will see it like my other post. Tank out. Teamspeak Rumble Recording! Vote for homepage
Crackpipe2000	Posted - 2009.01.12 20:26:00 - [119] Originally by: Undertow Latheus You might get a bigger sig radius but you also automatically get a sustained tank, it's ridiculous that you can get over 1000 dps tank by using LSE's and other mods. really? how?
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.12 20:30:00 - [120] Originally by: Crackpipe2000 Originally by: Undertow Latheus You might get a bigger sig radius but you also automatically get a sustained tank, it's ridiculous that you can get over 1000 dps tank by using LSE's and other mods. really? how? by using lol fits.:P
Crackpipe2000	Posted - 2009.01.12 20:31:00 - [121] Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Originally by: Crackpipe2000 Originally by: Undertow Latheus You might get a bigger sig radius but you also automatically get a sustained tank, it's ridiculous that you can get over 1000 dps tank by using LSE's and other mods. really? how? by using lol fits.:P i doubt it.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.01.12 20:35:00 - [122] Originally by: Muad' Dib Edited by: Muad'' Dib on 12/01/2009 16:34:56 Originally by: James Lyrus Edited by: James Lyrus on 11/01/2009 17:28:52 I think missiles got a bit too much 'adjustment' last patch actually. I quite like the general principle that MWD sig bloom offsets the speedboost some what, but I find it rather saddening that a heavy missile won't hit a cruiser for full damage, and HAMs are even worse. Especially as you can't use Guided missile precision/implants/boosters on HAMs. That's like ... making motion prediction only apply to long range guns. Lacking a 'large plate' sized shield extender is somewhat bothersome though. An XL Extender I think would do quite nicelyk, provided it's fittings were suitably large - (By which I mean almost impossible to fit on a BC) What is disturbing is that the best post in this pvp thread - except for the OP's, comes from someone who lost a Moros mining in a belt, and was in ISS leadership. Heh, but i guess it doesn't matter how stupid ppl are, if there are enough of them. :) PS: Except Shadowsword. :) ISS Leadership yes. Never lost a Moros though. Can't fly 'em. (That would be Nyphur)
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2009.01.12 20:44:00 - [123] Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: Muad' Dib What is disturbing is that the best post in this pvp thread - except for the OP's, comes from someone who lost a Moros mining in a belt, and was in ISS leadership. Heh, but i guess it doesn't matter how stupid ppl are, if there are enough of them. :) PS: Except Shadowsword. :) ISS Leadership yes. Never lost a Moros though. Can't fly 'em. (That would be Nyphur) You rang? :D
Exolun Imperium Technologies Sangre Azul	Posted - 2009.01.12 20:57:00 - [124] Quote: O yea heres the best part, The rolled tungsten gives the same amount of armor as the tech 2, but less mass and less fitting. The Large-F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction is less fitting requirements, yes, but also, less shield, only 2,250 HP. Now im not saying nerf plates, im just saying, please, choose a different penalty for LSE to be more balanced with armor plates, at least. I don't know if it's been said already, since I only read the first page. But I've always felt that the real discrepancy here is that the T2 1600mm plates don't have higher armor than best named, when they should. NOT that the best named are unfairly superior to their shield counterpart. In the case of every other module in the game, the T2 version is slightly better with higher fitting requirements, while the best named have almost t2 stats, and much lower fitting. In the case of plates, the armor amount is the same, and the fittings costs are notably higher, therefore no one uses T2 1600mm steel plates. Summary: -A 1600mm Steel Plate II should have more armor than a 1600mm Rolled Tungsten Plate. -Large Regolith Shield Extenders are in line with all other modules' T2 versions. Honestly, I don't care much anyway. It's been that way for as long as I can recall.
Muad' Dib Gallente Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2009.01.12 21:35:00 - [125] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: Muad' Dib What is disturbing is that the best post in this pvp thread - except for the OP's, comes from someone who lost a Moros mining in a belt, and was in ISS leadership. Heh, but i guess it doesn't matter how stupid ppl are, if there are enough of them. :) PS: Except Shadowsword. :) ISS Leadership yes. Never lost a Moros though. Can't fly 'em. (That would be Nyphur) You rang? :D What happened with your IPO ?; I may still have some shares on a char.
Hatsumi Kobayashi SniggWaffe	Posted - 2009.01.12 22:06:00 - [126] Originally by: Bellum Eternus I vote NO. Passive shield tanks are way overpowered, and missiles are too good. They need to be nerfed. So overpowered no one wants them around for fleet warfare, they'd make things to easy! I think shield tanking and missiles are fine as they are now. I just wish there was a way to make them functional with a good performance potential in RRBS gangs.
JoCool Warped Mining Strip Mining Club	Posted - 2009.01.12 22:36:00 - [127] Tank is a warrior and knows how to kill ****, been flying with him. In my opinion shield extenders should give more hp and more sig penalty increase. Trey Azagthoth > Youre my idol Jocool. I wanna be like Jocool jr. or Jocool the sequel! Oveur > ohnoes jocool
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance OWN Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.12 23:01:00 - [128] Its fine, LSE are massively overpowered anyway... I mean seriously just 25m sig and such low fitting?
Solid Prefekt Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.01.12 23:24:00 - [129] I hope CCP does not spend one second on this issue. There are WAY bigger issues then this at the moment. Many already argue that shield tanking is too good and armor tank could use a buff. I think it is balanced 'enough' to not worry about it.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2009.01.13 09:56:00 - [130] Originally by: Muad' Dib What happened with your IPO ?; I may still have some shares on a char. They both had to shut down due to RL issues ages ago. I liquidated them and paid the invested isk as a dividend. Check those characters, they'll have the isk back in their accounts. P.S. Shield extenders are fine and Tank CEO is an ebayed character.
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2009.01.13 10:05:00 - [131] Originally by: Tank CEO Originally by: Trader20 Edited by: Trader20 on 11/01/2009 06:37:23 1st ?- Yes 2nd ?-No Possible solution. X-Large shield extender. (raw stats, feel free to tweak) 5000 shield hp sigradius: +50 The sig radius penalty needs to be remove or reduced significantly. If plate only takes a agility hit, then ****, give us something similar. The sig radius penalty negates the point of even extending your shields because all it does it make you more vulnerable to fire from bigger weapons, therefore, taking in more damage... could nto get past this post ... I can't avoid thinking you are either not thinking things through all the way or you are intentionaly misleading ... the agility/mass penalty maked your ship accelerate and TURN slower. this means your best achevable transversal velocity ALSO drops which makes you vulnerable to bigger and slow tracking guns ... I think shield extenders vs plates are quite balanced ... there are ups and downs for each one that work for the respective weapon systems ...
Karl Luckner	Posted - 2009.01.13 10:21:00 - [132] Edited by: Karl Luckner on 13/01/2009 10:21:55 What everything seems to ignore EVERY GOD DAMN TIME ist that caldari ships are pre nerfed (more mass, more sigradius) because we don't have to fit plates. Where is the sig-penalty on armortankers ?
Tank CEO Caldari Dark Cartel	Posted - 2009.01.13 10:37:00 - [133] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Muad' Dib What happened with your IPO ?; I may still have some shares on a char. They both had to shut down due to RL issues ages ago. I liquidated them and paid the invested isk as a dividend. Check those characters, they'll have the isk back in their accounts. P.S. Shield extenders are fine and Tank CEO is an ebayed character. O yea, how much did it sell for? P.s. DIE
Innui	Posted - 2009.01.13 10:38:00 - [134] Originally by: Tippia Myrmidon. Same strength while passive-tanked, and can put up an armour tank that is only slightly less weak and run around with AB on full tilt, thereby nullifying large parts of any missiles and Battleship-turret damageà all while doing more DPS than the Drake at longer ranges. This Same applies to other ships, caldari BS aren't better, they're just easier to jump in to. Friend of mine is flying a nightmare, we're both 8m SP chars, he can incinerate ships with his ship and maintain a tank, I have to cut my CNR tank and fit 2 more BCS to get less dmg than him still. Even with my non T2 heavy/sentry drone skills and less points in gunnery than I have in missiles, I can put out the same dps in a domi without dmg mods and field a stronger tank in most missions. There are better options than caldari or is it still fotm to flog the dead horse?
Psir	Posted - 2009.01.13 11:09:00 - [135] Caldari missile boats balanced? No Shield Extenders balanced versus 1600mm plates? Yes Some valid points made by Tank. Yes, it's akward that Rolled Tungsten is better than its T2 equivalent and I agree with that the signature radius penalty may be a bit over the edge on cruiser sized ships. That's not to say however that Caldari are by any means weak in PvP, as they sport some of the best ships available like the Harpy, Drake and Falcon. I would like to see a little boost to cruise missiles and torps, the nerf was over the top. Rockets are deserving of a boost aswell, to help ships like the currently weak rocket AF's. As for midslots it's the same problem as always, if they'd only adress the above mentioned things then Caldari would still be very much viable in solo across the different shiptypes. Although it'd be nice to see a cruiser able to fit full tackle and be comparable to a Vexor or Thorax. I'm a big fan of missiles but I made my new pilot into a Gallente one for good reasons, - Missiles are only the ideal weapon system for BC sized ships - They tend to come with shield tanks and shield tanking is very midslot intensive, often not allowing tackle to be fit - You'll have to spend a longer period of time to crosstrain into another weapon system, this is NOT an option for a new pilot in EVE
Tank CEO Caldari Dark Cartel	Posted - 2009.01.13 12:10:00 - [136] Harpy - Faclon - both aren't missile boat ships.
fuxinos Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm	Posted - 2009.01.13 13:14:00 - [137] Edited by: fuxinos on 13/01/2009 13:16:51 The only BIG problem Caldari has is, its all about: LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE, LONG RANGE. Missiles are ** for long range, Rails do ** damage on long range and their stupid ECM ships cant even fight at all and the unflexibility to use anythingelse, actualy makes them even worse.
THEDON1 Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.01.13 13:17:00 - [138] no and no i stoped flying caldari when they changed the skills for missiles just afta they nefted the scorp .signed caldari suxx
Lord Zap Caldari Exotic Dancers Club Exalted.	Posted - 2009.01.13 13:31:00 - [139] Calamari sucks. Train Amarr
Psiri	Posted - 2009.01.13 14:43:00 - [140] Originally by: Tank CEO Harpy - Faclon - both aren't missile boat ships. True, but I'd also argue that the Crow is a perfectly fine ship. This leaves only rockets and the large missile systems as seemingly borked or just less desirable. I can think of quite a few non-missile ships that are crap aswell, so I'm not quite sure where you wish to go with this argument?
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.13 14:56:00 - [141] Caldari ships is actually very good gang and/or fleet ships. They are not solo wtfpwn everything ships. They take a bit of skilling to use properly, and you need to know how to use them. Amarr is also decent, but its a one trick pony, its a good trick, it gets the job done. But its not hard to do, all you need is T2 Pulses and thats about it.
fuxinos Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm	Posted - 2009.01.13 15:34:00 - [142] Edited by: fuxinos on 13/01/2009 15:43:16 Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Caldari ships is actually very good gang and/or fleet ships. They are not solo wtfpwn everything ships. They take a bit of skilling to use properly, and you need to know how to use them. Amarr is also decent, but its a one trick pony, its a good trick, it gets the job done. But its not hard to do, all you need is T2 Pulses and thats about it. If this would be the only problem, no one would complain. Long-range is the most egoistic thing you could go for, if its not for a fleet battle. How can a ship help youre gang if it sits out 200km?????? I mean, other then dealing the small dps caldari ships do. Exactly, nothing, except ECM and ECM without bonus is ****. Thats the main reason why Caldari suck, not shieldtanking. This isnt a role, this is the worst thought out balancing crap ever done and to force a complete race into this is just...
NuclearSi	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:11:00 - [143] So umm... caldari sucks + LSE is OP = minmatar is OP ? Right?
fuxinos Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:17:00 - [144] Originally by: NuclearSi So umm... caldari sucks + LSE is OP = minmatar is OP ? Right? If you think so.
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:35:00 - [145] Originally by: fuxinos Edited by: fuxinos on 13/01/2009 15:43:16 Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Caldari ships is actually very good gang and/or fleet ships. They are not solo wtfpwn everything ships. They take a bit of skilling to use properly, and you need to know how to use them. Amarr is also decent, but its a one trick pony, its a good trick, it gets the job done. But its not hard to do, all you need is T2 Pulses and thats about it. If this would be the only problem, no one would complain. Long-range is the most egoistic thing you could go for, if its not for a fleet battle. How can a ship help youre gang if it sits out 200km?????? I mean, other then dealing the small dps caldari ships do. Exactly, nothing, except ECM and ECM without bonus is ****. Thats the main reason why Caldari suck, not shieldtanking. This isnt a role, this is the worst thought out balancing crap ever done and to force a complete race into this is just... Yes, I do agree on this. Caldari ships needs a bit of work to be more viable. It got relatively feww good ships compared to other races. But they do have a few very nice gems. Ships such as the Eagle, Moa, Merlin, Caracal, Nighthawk needs a bit of tweaking, as do T2 Spike ammo.
NuclearSi	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:35:00 - [146] Originally by: fuxinos Originally by: NuclearSi So umm... caldari sucks + LSE is OP = minmatar is OP ? Right? If you think so. do you?
fuxinos Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:40:00 - [147] Originally by: NuclearSi Originally by: fuxinos Originally by: NuclearSi So umm... caldari sucks + LSE is OP = minmatar is OP ? Right? If you think so. do you? Nope. Never said shieldtanking has an issue, except maybe the over the top CPU usage of X-large shieldboosters.
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:42:00 - [148] Originally by: fuxinos Nope. Never said shieldtanking has an issue, except maybe the over the top CPU usage of X-large shieldboosters. This I agree on, that CPU ussage is horrible.
Tank CEO Caldari Dark Cartel	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:26:00 - [149] They should add a warning sign when you play caldari "Warning, race is only playable in a team and 80km+ away from the target" You know, I hear this crap about how Caldari are ment to be long range ships... but how the hell are they suppost to be any good when it takes time for missiles to hit.. You take Amarr vs Caldari for example, both 70km away from each other. 10v10 say... who do you think will win? Say all of them are DPS/EHP fitted. NO ECM. Amarr is, you know why? Focus fire. Turrets hit instantanously... where Caldari takes time, valuable time to hit the target and if the player is destroyed, he missiles disappear, even more bull****. lol. i give up. GOOD JOB CCP. Teamspeak Rumble Recording! Vote for homepage
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:58:00 - [150] Originally by: Tank CEO lol. i give up. Oh how I wish this were true. EVE-Tanking.com - Helping you keep your hull in-tact.
Dray Caldari Clowns with Downs	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:44:00 - [151] Originally by: SniperWo1f well as a counter point to what you said last night a corp mate in a drake passive tanked aggroed three loot thieves . they then returned in a domi-sleipnir-scorp and couldn't kill him . now we are talking about two battleships and a command ship not being able to destroy a single tech 1 BC . Deos that seem fair? Tbh I'd like to know just how they setup the domi-sleip-scorp, because I'm guessing that a pvp setup that fails in this situation is a lot harder to do than one that doesn't. Your point is moot, its obvious to me that they shouldn't get in a ship let alone undock.
Mawusi	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:25:00 - [152] Originally by: Pearljammer 5657 Well im trying to dedicate some time to gunnery but I think missles need tweaking, yea there are alot of caldari but damn, I want to pvp in my missle boats. Please CCP boost missles, or at least make target painters a high slot fitting. This. A target painter in my empty high slot would be nice.....
Rogue Lilly Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.01.14 20:41:00 - [153] Edited by: Rogue Lilly on 14/01/2009 20:43:05 Edited by: Rogue Lilly on 14/01/2009 20:41:33 Originally by: Jack Jombardo You see 1800 plates ... but you don't see the low slot they need ... the low slot Caldari can use for BC! This is a funny argument because this is what every armor tanker says. "If i tank i have no slots of damage mods and those are mandatory so shield tank is better." then shield tankers say "If i tank i have no mid slots and those are mandatory for ewar and tackle and cap booster, so armor tank is better." and then the glaring misconception, which a lot of people have because they hate missiles so have never tried them but think they know all about them..... Originally by: Jack Jombardo You wan't Heavy-Missiles for Caracel? Well, Let's use Heavy-Beams for Omen ... WTF? Can't even fit 4? 3 max, not enough PG for the 4th! Better not talk about all 5 :(. ....hvy missiles are not compairable to hvy-beam. Hvy missiles are the next step up from light missiles (aml just fire light missiles faster, they are like our "pulse" weapons) Heavy missiles are our medium turrets. How would amarr feel if they couldn't even fit a full load of medium beams? I know i know it's hard to comprehend "but heavy not same thing as medium." it's hard to grasp if you make snap decisions based on names rather than information but it's just a misleading naming scheme for missiles. There are a lot less options for missiles. Basically each ship class (frig, cruise, BS) has a single size of launcher with some of them having assault versions. We don't get to choose between several sizes and double/smalls or focused/large. someone much more intelligent than me made a great statement earlier in the thread "they keep trying to make caldari play by different rules than everyone else and it only messes things up." variety is good and i'm glad they try to make each race different, but there are some inherit qualities to the game that make the differences to caldari only have drawbacks in pvp with no benefits.
fuxinos Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm	Posted - 2009.01.14 21:10:00 - [154] Edited by: fuxinos on 14/01/2009 21:12:32 Originally by: Rogue Lilly Edited by: Rogue Lilly on 14/01/2009 20:43:05 Edited by: Rogue Lilly on 14/01/2009 20:41:33 Originally by: Jack Jombardo someone much more intelligent than me made a great statement earlier in the thread "they keep trying to make caldari play by different rules than everyone else and it only messes things up." variety is good and i'm glad they try to make each race different, but there are some inherit qualities to the game that make the differences to caldari only have drawbacks in pvp with no benefits. This is so true. What I would like to see in this game is, that people train for Caldari because they have good ships instead of because they cant fly anythingelse, due to choosing Caldari as race.
xxxak	Posted - 2009.01.14 21:40:00 - [155] I agree with 100% of this.
Absolom Hues Gallente The Triangle Veneratio Venator Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.14 22:13:00 - [156] Originally by: fuxinos Edited by: fuxinos on 14/01/2009 21:12:32 Originally by: Rogue Lilly Edited by: Rogue Lilly on 14/01/2009 20:43:05 Edited by: Rogue Lilly on 14/01/2009 20:41:33 Originally by: Jack Jombardo someone much more intelligent than me made a great statement earlier in the thread "they keep trying to make caldari play by different rules than everyone else and it only messes things up." variety is good and i'm glad they try to make each race different, but there are some inherit qualities to the game that make the differences to caldari only have drawbacks in pvp with no benefits. This is so true. What I would like to see in this game is, that people train for Caldari because they have good ships instead of because they cant fly anythingelse, due to choosing Caldari as race. I am a Gallente pilot that recently started using Caldari ships for PvP.. and I like them! Sure they have some disadvantages, but for gate camping and medium sized fleets (where you have dedicated tackle)... I will grab one of the Caldari ships and am often one of the high damage dealers. Some PvP such as small fleets, where I need to tackle or spyder tank, or short range; the Gallente armor ships are better. If you are Caldari, train another race to give you those options. But I am enjoying missiles and shields.
Jevexus	Posted - 2009.01.14 22:17:00 - [157] Originally by: Rogue Lilly Edited by: Rogue Lilly on 14/01/2009 20:43:05 Edited by: Rogue Lilly on 14/01/2009 20:41:33 Originally by: Jack Jombardo You see 1800 plates ... but you don't see the low slot they need ... the low slot Caldari can use for BC! This is a funny argument because this is what every armor tanker says. "If i tank i have no slots of damage mods and those are mandatory so shield tank is better." then shield tankers say "If i tank i have no mid slots and those are mandatory for ewar and tackle and cap booster, so armor tank is better." Yeah, i agree with this. However, caldari need the low slots for the DPS upgrades because of the recent missile tweak just to get our dps up to par with everyone else. We also need them for PDS's and RCU's because our PG, for some reason, is a little lower than all comparable ships. I know that issue was discussed in another thread, but it needed to be mentioned. To fill high slots with available launcher points on a ship, you have very limited PG left to work with to fit a viable tank. Especially with heavy assaults.. you need weapon upgrades to 5 and advanced weapon upgrades to 5 just to lower the pg need of these launchers just to get a semi-decent amount of pg to work with for your mids.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.01.14 23:51:00 - [158] Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Originally by: fuxinos Nope. Never said shieldtanking has an issue, except maybe the over the top CPU usage of X-large shieldboosters. This I agree on, that CPU ussage is horrible. Please lets include the over the top CPU useage of large shield transporters as well. That's one of the reasons you'll never really see a 'shield' RR gang - because no one can afford the 165CPU that a large shield transporter II eats. Also... well, missiles used to have this thing, where they did lower DPS, but did so more reliably. That was ok, I have to say - yeah, you didn't get the ego stroking numbers, or the massive wrecking hits, but ... if you knew what you were doing, these things balanced out a bit. (At least, in the short-med ranges). I have to say, I think the change to missiles was the right idea - change them away from the 'cannot hit anything if it goes to fast' to 'hits for a bit against a microwarp driving target'. But I also think that they went just a little bit too far on explosion velocity and signature - it's now the case that you cannot hit a ship in the same size class that's moving for full damage. Your 'lower' DPS is now even lower than it was. That's not too hard to fix, but basically would in my book mean that with max skills a HAM had a signature and explosion velocity to match a non-afterburning cruiser. Also, what's with guided missile precision not affecting torps/rockets/hams. Yes, I know it says 'guided missiles only' but I don't quite know why that's there - I mean, it's like saying only long range turrets can have tracking bonuses from motion prediction. (This also applies to precision bonuses from implants or boosters - they did at least fix the explosion velocity on the ships in question). Torps... are worse than they were, but just about ok. Cruises much the same. Cruiser sized missiles (both kinds) and rockets, on the other hand, are hurting. They're basically puffed up with a big dose of 'suck'. -- 249km locking?
Karl Luckner	Posted - 2009.01.15 00:36:00 - [159] The funny thing about Caldari is: for most problems a smaller Caldari gang has, there is a Minmatar ship to solve it.
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance OWN Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.15 00:41:00 - [160] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Tank CEO lol. i give up. Oh how I wish this were true. Yeah I lol'ed at the youtube clip, but now I know you are an idiot like most of the Eve community.
Suicide Koala	Posted - 2009.01.15 01:15:00 - [161] I rarely post on these forums, but my main is caldari, and its just a laugh to see the same old arguments coming back up again. I understand that the state of caldari is not the only problem in the game, i know the nerf hurt minmatar bad, that a year or so ago amarr were worthless now are actually very nasty pvp ships. But this thread is to complain about the current layout of caldari ships, and the reasons us pilots have issues with it. I would first ask the caldari bashers to understand a few things. one, how many of you have actually flown a caldari ship in pvp? most, not all, but most of the people on the "leave caldari alone" side are pilots from other races who are basing their thoughts on the experiences of TWO ships for caldari. The Falcon and the Drake. Most of us caldari have cross trained for the simple fact if we want to actually have some solo fun, or play something other than the role of a good jammer, we have no choice Ok I admit it, the falcon is a bloody nice ship, I fly it 95% of the time in fleets. it is maybe the most important ship in the game, and when used in multiples of 4 or 5, can be absoloulely devastating to a 20 or 30 man enemy fleet. Im not sure if nerfing it is really a good idea, maybe give it some more dps and limit its range to give it half a chance at soloing? The drake is an awesome pve ship when fully set up for tank, as in your rig slots, all your mids and lows are shield mods. but someone said on the first page that they couldnt kill a drake with a sleipnir and 2 bs. that is crap, they are a t1 battlecruiser not a faction bs, they can and do go down very easily its just that ppl sitting on a station can normally deagress and dock in time before dying. perhapps the onyx also fits in this category as an awesome caldari tank However, these two ships are somewhat the only shining light caldari has to offer for being the police of the galaxy. The few simple issues we have with caldari, are usually based around the same old things. Inability to fit a mwd,cap booster,point or web without making a big hole in our tank. Missiles that are doing less damage and the bonuses to missile damage which are perfect for serpentis pve but useless for anything else. and thirdly, and perhaps most of all, lack of opportunity for solo pvp. this is the biggest issue of all I have with caldari. There is no ship you can even compare with the same class of ship from another race in solo pvp. the pilgrim, arazu, and rapier are all pick your target solo pvp ships. the falcon i know plays a different role but as i said above, nerf the range, give it more dps and let it play a similar 30-50km range of the other force recons. The cerb/raven seem to suffer from the same problems, lack of mid slots and tank if you fit mwd/point/web. you can get some good dps from a raven at close range so long as your target is doing 0ms and the size of a small planet, but seriously, the cerb is the ship that really needs looking at imo. give it an extra mid slot, or an extra launcher point, or god forbid, even a drone bay. give a caldari bs the chance to launch 5 ogre IIs back at a blaster mega that is doing 1000dps to you whilst you do 6-700ish with torps and 5 hammerhead IIs providing youve got the right ammo loaded and he doesnt warp off when you have no point or get out of your range with his mwd or kill you if you have a mwd and a point cause you have no tank. Hell even consider making shield mods go in the low slots, or make caldari invent some low or high slot point/web module that suits their ship setup and tanks, make some new modules race specific? I dont have the answers tbh, but i do have the questions, Caldari pilots are sick and tired of trying to get ppl to understand where we are coming from. We know the falcon is a good ship, but everything else is crap for PVP, which is what we are all interested in. Please CCP listen this time and sit up and take note from the people that play the game
Tank CEO Caldari Dark Cartel	Posted - 2009.01.15 01:41:00 - [162] Keep in mind that it takes 2 medium slot LSE to match a 1600mm Plate. So your argument about armor tankers having trouble getting in dmg mods is a bunch of crap. Also keep in mind that even tho we might be able to fit those 2 LSE or however many, we most likely have CPU issues or pg issues. You might have issues, but its fixed by 1 reactor control unit and you have 6-7 low slots to deal with this. Teamspeak Rumble Recording! Vote for homepage
fuxinos Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm	Posted - 2009.01.15 02:15:00 - [163] Edited by: fuxinos on 15/01/2009 02:16:03 Ah well, as always, CCP says they want to work closer together with us, but where are they now? Not even a single respons from any Dev or whatever, would be realy nice to read what they think, but they keep ingnoring threads like this as if it would be so hard to spent 10mins to write something about their oppinion..., but instead, they make all this CSM stuff and what not...
Yuki Sanada Caldari Mentis Fidelis Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2009.01.15 03:02:00 - [164] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Tank CEO 1600mm Plate: 4,200HP - Penalty - Increased Mass - Slower Acceleration, Less Agility (lol, big whoop) Yes. HUGE whoop, especially after QR. Less agility and slower acceleration = slower to warp = you get caught and then you die. And you hold your gang up, and then they die. The sig bonus on the extenders speed up the locking process, making them easier to catch as well, but not to the same extent, and the tacklers still have to react as fast. Even though I usually do not respond to these posts, for the purposes of future searches, more mass does not mean more time to warp. The relation between both (speed to achieve warp and agility) is proportional and therefore it scales up or down proportionally. Pull out your eft or run the tests in TQ or SiSi. And yes, I agree with Tank. I believe Caldari are a bit pointless athmo. A myrm can outtank a drake passively. Apart from that, a torpraven will do less effective dps than any other bs on anything smaller than a BS. Will also like to add that anything > 90m/s does mitigate damage in most cases (I fly amarr and most of my bses do more than 90m/s even trimarked). \o
Warrio Southern Cross Incorporated	Posted - 2009.01.15 03:06:00 - [165] A Falcon will easily jam this setup rendering it useless. So what's the point of a huge tank when you can't do anything? sXe
Absolom Hues Gallente The Triangle Veneratio Venator Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.15 05:34:00 - [166] Originally by: Yuki Sanada And yes, I agree with Tank. I believe Caldari are a bit pointless athmo. A myrm can outtank a drake passively.... \o What are you talking about? Show me a Myrm fit in EFT that has a higher shield defense rating than a Passive Drake. Passive does not mean it cant use energized hardners... it just means there are no shield boosters.
Trader20	Posted - 2009.01.15 07:53:00 - [167] Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Originally by: Dr Sheepbringer Armor > Alloy of sorts (depending on what you use), that can or not, be radar deflective etc. It's only mass. Shield > energy, shows up like a xmas tree on radars. Armor ships should be slow, but more stealthy. Shield ships should be faster, but glow like torches. You clearly do not know what a radar is, or any of the underlying theory!! :P In fact its oposite. Radar dedetcs objects :P http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_cross_section (sorry I suck at posting links)
Colonel Xaven Decadence. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.15 07:53:00 - [168] Imho Caldari has all the advantages and disadvantages other races have aswell. It's like in kindergarden, when a boy starts crying because his plastic car is red and he wants the other boy's blue one (without giving away the red car). /Solution to all problems: cross training. Proud member of RZR - Decadence.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2009.01.15 15:40:00 - [169] Originally by: TimMc Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Tank CEO lol. i give up. Oh how I wish this were true. Yeah I lol'ed at the youtube clip, but now I know you are an idiot like most of the Eve community. Me?
fuxinos Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm	Posted - 2009.01.15 22:23:00 - [170] Originally by: Colonel Xaven Imho Caldari has all the advantages and disadvantages other races have aswell. It's like in kindergarden, when a boy starts crying because his plastic car is red and he wants the other boy's blue one (without giving away the red car). /Solution to all problems: cross training. If this would be true, then tell me, did you ever come accross someone who trained for Caldari because the Cerb is sooo good, or the Raven being the PWNSHIP, or the Caracal being the best t1 cruiser? Or did they all train for Caldari because of ECM?
SirMoric Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.01.15 23:17:00 - [171] Originally by: fuxinos If this would be true, then tell me, did you ever come accross someone who trained for Caldari because the Cerb is sooo good, or the Raven being the PWNSHIP, or the Caracal being the best t1 cruiser? Or did they all train for Caldari because of ECM? Counters to ECM: Information Warfare Link - Sensor Integrity Ship Equipment: Electronic Warfare: ECCM Ship Equipment: Electronic Warfare: Projected ECCM Ship Equipment: Electronic Warfare: Sensor Backup Arrays rgds
Mustafa Rodapuraz	Posted - 2009.01.16 00:59:00 - [172] Originally by: fuxinos If this would be true, then tell me, did you ever come accross someone who trained for Caldari because the Cerb is sooo good, or the Raven being the PWNSHIP, or the Caracal being the best t1 cruiser? Or did they all train for Caldari because of ECM? I trained Caldari for the Drake, Rokh, Raven (it does own), and Onyx. ECM is just an extra perk.
BiggestT Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.01.16 01:30:00 - [173] Originally by: Trader20 Edited by: Trader20 on 11/01/2009 06:40:53 1st?-Yes 2nd?-No Possible solution. X-Large shield extender. (raw stats, feel free to tweak) 5000 shield hp sigradius: +50 I want to see a nice buffer tank raven or rohk but using lse for a bs sized ship is kind of weak.
chrisss0r	Posted - 2009.01.16 01:38:00 - [174] Originally by: SirMoric Originally by: fuxinos If this would be true, then tell me, did you ever come accross someone who trained for Caldari because the Cerb is sooo good, or the Raven being the PWNSHIP, or the Caracal being the best t1 cruiser? Or did they all train for Caldari because of ECM? Counters to ECM: Information Warfare Link - Sensor Integrity Ship Equipment: Electronic Warfare: ECCM Ship Equipment: Electronic Warfare: Projected ECCM Ship Equipment: Electronic Warfare: Sensor Backup Arrays rgds exactly like a large armor rep was a valid counter to nanos.
fuxinos Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm	Posted - 2009.01.16 02:22:00 - [175] Originally by: Mustafa Rodapuraz Originally by: fuxinos If this would be true, then tell me, did you ever come accross someone who trained for Caldari because the Cerb is sooo good, or the Raven being the PWNSHIP, or the Caracal being the best t1 cruiser? Or did they all train for Caldari because of ECM? I trained Caldari for the Drake, Rokh, Raven (it does own), and Onyx. ECM is just an extra perk. And I am flying Griffins since I started to play eve, just because they look sexy :/
Grendelsbane	Posted - 2009.01.16 02:30:00 - [176] Edited by: Grendelsbane on 16/01/2009 02:30:23 Originally by: Tank CEO There are many things that I have a problem with caldari.. Im just going to post my thoughts and have you people decide whats balanced. Today, the way eve is, ships are about EHP. Now, I have always been lonewolf back in the day and now thats really not possible, at least not fun anymore cause you get your ass kicked. Since ship set ups are based on the best EHP, obviously people fit plates/shield extenders in PVP. For PVE, where damage can be controlled, armor reps and shield boosters are used. CCP's attempt to make caldari more and more like turrets is going downhill in my opinion. First off, I want to talk about Shield Extenders. I beleive they need to be rebalanced ship signature penalty wise. I was goofing off on the Test server last night and a good EHP Caracal for example had 300 signature radius.. Now honestly, the point of people flying smaller ships is for the advantage of having a small ship sig.. Basically, the more extenders you fit, the easier your going to be hit by bigger ships and personally it destroys the whole point and not worth it. Comparison: 1600mm Plate: 4,200HP - Penalty - Increased Mass - Slower Acceleration, Less Agility (lol, big whoop) Large Shield Extender: 2,625 HP, 25m Sig Bonus (on smaller ships, thats a big penalty) O yea heres the best part, The rolled tungsten gives the same amount of armor as the tech 2, but less mass and less fitting. The Large-F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction is less fitting requirements, yes, but also, less shield, only 2,250 HP. Now im not saying nerf plates, im just saying, please, choose a different penalty for LSE to be more balanced with armor plates, at least. Caracal isn't going to EHP/Shield tank anything that would have trouble hitting it anyways, at least not for any meaningful amount of time. The larger EHP fits are more useful against smaller ships that would hit them anyways. As for missiles... yeah, they're borked a bit both good and bad, and we can probably blame this on the BIZARRE decision for missiles to always hit, and to hit with the same damage again, and again, and again. And the lack of effective anti-missile systems. (yes, a missile spammer pilot just said that) CCP does not have a solid grasp of how all their systems interrelate.
Motaka	Posted - 2009.01.18 01:45:00 - [177] Originally by: Vaal Erit Oh wow. What an unintelligent, noob post. Where's my XL armor repairer? Active all resistance armor hardening module? Armor repairer boost amplifier module? WHY DOESN'T MY ARMOR PASSIVELY RECHARGE? I'M TANK CEO, I DON'T KNOW **** ABOUT GAME MECHANICS. CAPS AT THE END OF A POST MAKES ME LOOK KEWL. YES YES AND CALDARI CAN USE A MWD,CAP INJECTOR,DISRUPTOR AND STILL HAVE A HELLA BUFFER TANK MORON! _______________________________________________ Motaka ~ DirtyHarry ~ Original F-E Material
fuxinos Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm	Posted - 2009.01.18 01:55:00 - [178] Edited by: fuxinos on 18/01/2009 01:55:53 Originally by: Motaka Originally by: Vaal Erit Oh wow. What an unintelligent, noob post. Where's my XL armor repairer? Active all resistance armor hardening module? Armor repairer boost amplifier module? WHY DOESN'T MY ARMOR PASSIVELY RECHARGE? I'M TANK CEO, I DON'T KNOW **** ABOUT GAME MECHANICS. CAPS AT THE END OF A POST MAKES ME LOOK KEWL. YES YES AND CALDARI CAN USE A MWD,CAP INJECTOR,DISRUPTOR AND STILL HAVE A HELLA BUFFER TANK MORON! Dont forget our X-large Extenders that give us 50000 shield and our Missiles that only make wrecking hits for 20000 damage on untackled targets.
BiggestT Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.01.18 03:08:00 - [179] Edited by: BiggestT on 18/01/2009 03:09:29 Originally by: Vaal Erit Oh wow. What an unintelligent, noob post. Where's my XL armor repairer? Active all resistance armor hardening module? Armor repairer boost amplifier module? WHY DOESN'T MY ARMOR PASSIVELY RECHARGE? I'M TANK CEO, I DON'T KNOW **** ABOUT GAME MECHANICS. CAPS AT THE END OF A POST MAKES ME LOOK KEWL. Hey I can do that too.. Why doesnt my shield extender get as much hp as a plate? Why cant I fit two of the largest reppers like an armour tanker can? Why do I get a sh*tty sig radius penalty that makes me take more damage and negates some of the hp it adds?? See what I did there? Note that armour and shield are differnt, complaining about one thing and not mentioning another is pointless. I'd like to see an X-L extender, it shldnt give as much hp as a plate of course, and the sig radius penalty wld make it worhless on anything sub-bs. However I dont really care if we dont get one, to give passive armour buffers a better edge.
Noah Cyril	Posted - 2009.01.18 12:35:00 - [180] I think is blanced for a good while. and u hav any idea how much more a 1600 plate give then a LSE?? any way, i fly caldari and amarr, which ever(shield/armour),(missile/gun) gets nerf too much, i'll just fly the other 1 :) just hope is not shield and gun nerf or the otherway :p p.s. u do relize we pay and hope CCP to keep the server up and not just hav a 24/7 DT rather then all these improvement that we got reccently
Noah Cyril	Posted - 2009.01.18 12:45:00 - [181] and i forgot to add this on, is much easier to sustain ur cap with 2 large armour repper then 1 x-large shield booster+ caldari ship = ****ty cap but oh well, i am use to it any way and 1 of u said that the cap use bonus for laser is a crappy bonus, imagine wat ur cap will be like without that bonus and firing tachyon...oh forgot there is a perfect example, the abaddon......but the geddon is still the highset dps amarr BS and less then half the price of the abaddon =)
Tank CEO Caldari Dark Cartel	Posted - 2009.01.21 01:24:00 - [182] This is about EHP, not active repairs. Teamspeak Rumble Recording! Vote for homepage
Letifer Deus A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.21 02:12:00 - [183] Edited by: Letifer Deus on 21/01/2009 02:20:35 Originally by: BiggestT I'd like to see an X-L extender, XL extenders would make rediculous passive tanks. I really don't think they should exists with how shield extenders work now. If, as someone mentioned above, a shield recharge penalty were added (shield rechargers improved to make them useful for passive tanking), only then could I see XLSEs coming in w/o causing problems. Quote: and the sig radius penalty wld make it worhless on anything sub-bs. Not really, it would just mean they would put in one XLSE2 instead of 2 LSE2s. One mid freed up for a little more pg/cpu usage. Generally a pretty damn good tradeoff. Originally by: Noah Cyril and i forgot to add this on, is much easier to sustain ur cap with 2 large armour repper then 1 x-large shield booster . Uh. xlarge booster uses almost exactly the same amount of cap/s (72 vs. 71.2). So no. Also remember that shield boosters boost at the beginning of the cycle and have shorter cycle times, which is a handy advantage, and that while armor tankers can't do anything while their shields are going, shield tankers get to boost all the way through their armor. Quote: + caldari ship = ****ty cap caldari also = no weapon cap usage, whereas a hyperion uses up ~15-20 cap/s. for guns. Let us also not forget that 2x LAR2s uses up 2 low slots while XL booster uses up only 1 mid. Oh how I wish an XL armor repper existed because then I would at least consider active armor tanking.
Noskill McCheese	Posted - 2009.01.21 02:33:00 - [184] Edited by: Noskill McCheese on 21/01/2009 02:36:04 Originally by: Jack Jombardo You wan't Heavy-Missiles for Caracel? Well, Let's use Heavy-Beams for Omen ... WTF? Can't even fit 4? 3 max, not enough PG for the 4th! Better not talk about all 5 :(. ....hvy missiles are not compairable to hvy-beam. Hvy missiles are the next step up from light missiles (aml just fire light missiles faster, they are like our "pulse" weapons) Heavy missiles are our medium turrets. How would amarr feel if they couldn't even fit a full load of medium beams? I know i know it's hard to comprehend "but heavy not same thing as medium." it's hard to grasp if you make snap decisions based on names rather than information but it's just a misleading naming scheme for missiles. There are a lot less options for missiles. Basically each ship class (frig, cruise, BS) has a single size of launcher with some of them having assault versions. We don't get to choose between several sizes and double/smalls or focused/large. someone much more intelligent than me made a great statement earlier in the thread "they keep trying to make caldari play by different rules than everyone else and it only messes things up." variety is good and i'm glad they try to make each race different, but there are some inherit qualities to the game that make the differences to caldari only have drawbacks in pvp with no benefits. I put the lulzy parts in itallics. You see, a heavy beam laser is a medium sized weapon. It's just named "heavy beam laser". But you knew that, right? Because you don't make snap decisions based on names, but information. PS stfu achura noob Now as for all the other whiney "armor vs shield one sided comparisons": Why is minmatar so nerfed? Amarr can just train hull upgrades and energy turrets, caldari can just train missile launchers and shields. But we minmatar, to use our ships, need to train drones, missiles, shields, armor, gunnery, fitting, navigation, target painting, ecm, cloaking, refining, mass production, talocan technology, and capital ship construction just to use them all.
Joss Sparq Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.21 06:49:00 - [185] Originally by: Tank CEO This is my final attempt to get something to happen with caldari. But being that they are now rolled as anti-suppost classs ships / ECM in fleet battles and ment for long range. I can do nothing about it and will just have to repsec into turrets. "Are now rolled", as in they weren't before ... when, exactly? The Caldari have always been focused at ranged combat for their racial weapon systems (Missiles, Railguns and ECM) which makes them natural anti-support because they can afford to sit back and provide point fire. If you can't see the value of that then personally I wish you the best of luck with your training the latest flavor of the month, even though you come across as being full of balderdash.
fuxinos Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm	Posted - 2009.01.21 07:41:00 - [186] Originally by: Noskill McCheese Now as for all the other whiney "armor vs shield one sided comparisons": Why is minmatar so nerfed? Amarr can just train hull upgrades and energy turrets, caldari can just train missile launchers and shields. But we minmatar, to use our ships, need to train drones, missiles, shields, armor, gunnery, fitting, navigation, target painting, ecm, cloaking, refining, mass production, talocan technology, and capital ship construction just to use them all. This is a thread about Caldari, not Minmatar. Incase you cant read, but no one said Minmatar is balanced... So..., maybe you stfu now.
Letifer Deus A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.21 07:46:00 - [187] I don't fly ravens, but what is wrong with this setup for empire/gate/station warfare? [Raven, New Setup 2] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Power Diagnostic System II Damage Control II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Warp Disruptor II Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo Medium 'Vehemence' I Shockwave Charge Medium 'Vehemence' I Shockwave Charge Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I Hammerhead II x4 Ogre II x1 -126K EHP with 133 omnitank w/ both invulns OLd (OL lasts approx. 3 1/2 minutes) -1170 DPS -easily destroys drone swarms (or could put in single heavy or 2x medium neuts) no speed mod, but with 30km range it really doesn't need one for non-0.0 gang fighting on stations/gates. If you really want one you can swap one of the LSEs for an AB and get 509 m/s (OLd) w/ 108K EHP or swap in MWD which also requires dropping one of the smarties. Even at 108K EHP it is still very competitive with my usual mega setup that runs at 115.4K EHP, and even this slight difference is reduced due to 106 tankable dps, though not by much.
Double A	Posted - 2009.01.21 10:10:00 - [188] I am really enjoying all your posts! Keep up the good flam.... good work!
Ayshala	Posted - 2009.01.21 10:44:00 - [189] move the Target Painters into high slot please! thx
Opertone Caldari Gladiators of Rage Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.01.21 10:46:00 - [190] caldari sucks since... there are no static ground fields, such as 400 km wide areas with no warping allowed. No 100 km points, if there were 250 km points caldari would rule EVE. Raven is inferior because it can't fit 6 SIEGE II and 2x Blasters... it has not enough Grid. 5 low slots don't serve any role, in fact raven needs 8 medium slots and 3 lows to be successful in PvP. Scorpion is a pure fail, it can't get over 250 DPS. Not a combat ship. Good for support and E-WAR. Rokh is not any good. If you are happy with 350 DPS compared to 1300 DPS of Megathrone then Rokh is your choice. Rokh has the worst tracking of all large gun sytems. Caldari don't get enough medium slots, it is laughable. Range and sniping is better on apocalypse and megathrone - they can use tracking links to improve it. Range and sniping is non-existent concept in EvE. Caldari miss X-Large shield extender. Caldari miss DPS and tank, cladari can't tank and use e-war and tackle. Caldari fail from the start.
chrisss0r	Posted - 2009.01.21 12:15:00 - [191] Edited by: chrisss0r on 21/01/2009 12:15:35 Originally by: Opertone Raven is inferior because it can't fit 6 SIEGE II and 2x Blasters... it has not enough Grid. 5 low slots don't serve any role, in fact raven needs 8 medium slots and 3 lows to be successful in PvP. LOL everyone why really insists on fitting 2 guns in the utility slots of a raven just because it makes the eft-dmg go up should call himself LORD OF THE FAIL from now on. Left alone the F:A:I:L: of directly comparing 350 dps at 250 km with 1300 overloaded dps at point blank.
Letifer Deus A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.21 15:22:00 - [192] Originally by: Opertone wtf? I really hope you aren't being serious. If you are I hope you don't have children.
Stefan F Enrave Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.01.21 16:57:00 - [193] So to sum up(/interpret) the reasonable suggestions done in this topic and adding a few: - Introduce X-large shield extender, whilst changing the drawback from sig radius to shield recharge rate on all extenders. Lower fitting requirements on the other extenders to fit in. This will also solve some of the PG issues of BC and smaller caldari ships and make it very tough to fit X-large extenders on cruiser sized hulls (just like 1600mm's on cruisers) - After the missile nerf in QR reduce sig radius on all missiles so target painters are no longer needed but keep expl. penalty - increase effectiveness of explosion velocity rigs and/or introduce mods increasing expl velocity and/or radius just like tracking enhancers/computers - increase base damage of all missile systems by 20% to compensate for the explosion velocity nerf
Letifer Deus A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.21 18:21:00 - [194] Originally by: Stefan F whilst changing the drawback from sig radius to shield recharge rate on all extenders. I would NOT remove the sig radius penalty. If you do extenders would have zero downsides for shield buffer tankers, which is unacceptable. Quote: - increase base damage of all missile systems by 20% to compensate for the explosion velocity nerf Without question, NO. HAMs and rockets should get the same % boost that torps got. Nothing else needs to be done to missile DPS. Quote: After the missile nerf in QR reduce sig radius on all missiles so target painters are no longer needed but keep expl. penalty I would argue it should go the other way. torp/HAM/rockets should need TPs, not webs (and not both like they do now). Quote: Lower fitting requirements on the other extenders to fit in. Maybe a slight lowering of PG usage on MSEs, but that's it. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Opertone Caldari Gladiators of Rage Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.01.22 05:00:00 - [195] Originally by: chrisss0r Edited by: chrisss0r on 21/01/2009 12:15:35 Originally by: Opertone Raven is inferior because it can't fit 6 SIEGE II and 2x Blasters... it has not enough Grid. 5 low slots don't serve any role, in fact raven needs 8 medium slots and 3 lows to be successful in PvP. LOL everyone why really insists on fitting 2 guns in the utility slots of a raven just because it makes the eft-dmg go up should call himself LORD OF THE FAIL from now on. Left alone the F:A:I:L: of directly comparing 350 dps at 250 km with 1300 overloaded dps at point blank. you lack understanding every other ship can utilize its full weapon potential. Megathrone gets extra launcher, typhoon gets 4 launchers and it all fits well. Raven is ****ty with 3 low slots essentially filled with PDS II. Go back to your minimatar cave and do rehearsals of ships and fittings. Caldari aren't good at all because they are a fail concept. Optimal and sniping is laughable... 350 DPS won't break anyones tank, since at that range enemy can use remote repairs on fleet.
Letifer Deus A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.22 17:20:00 - [196] Edited by: Letifer Deus on 22/01/2009 17:22:00 Originally by: Opertone [ every other ship can utilize its full weapon potential. Megathrone gets extra launcher, typhoon gets 4 launchers and it all fits well. No! Megathrone gets TWO extra launchers but I don't have a 9th slot. It is impossible to use all my hardpoints. IT'S NOT FAIR!!!!1oneone!!1! cries Hate to tell you, but the raven isn't intended to use 6 launchers and 2 turrets at the same time. They are there to give flexibility (as useless as it actually is), just like the launcher HPs on the apoc and having 2 launcher HPs on the megathron. I also like that you called the scorp "pure fail" because of it's low DPS. I guess the falcon is "uber fail" then. Basically what I am saying is, you don't know wtf you are talking about, stop posting and go back to missioning or fueling POSs or whatever it is you do. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Opertone Caldari Gladiators of Rage Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.01.22 21:31:00 - [197] flame on... you gotta be caldari fan... this race needs a boost. Scorpion is weaker than falcon, but costs more. Falcon is true gang support at 150 kms. Scorpion is built to take hits, both under sentry fire and under heavy DPS. Remote assistance keeps scorpion alive. Fail starts when a falcon jams ECCMed Scorpion with 80 Gravimetric Strength. Raven does not look good with 3x PDS II, there is not much to put in there, because w/o PDS II siege missiles will not fit. Assuming one can fly cruise Raven or amarr BS, amarr BS will do more damage regardless of range. All low slots on Caldari ships are redundant and no more than 3 are needed, while all ship line up lacks medium slots for PvP. CCP believes that 8 medium slot tank is excessive and will lead to extreme carebearing.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.22 22:36:00 - [198] Originally by: Opertone flame on... you gotta be caldari fan... this race needs a boost. Scorpion is weaker than falcon, but costs more. Falcon is true gang support at 150 kms. Scorpion is built to take hits, both under sentry fire and under heavy DPS. Remote assistance keeps scorpion alive. Fail starts when a falcon jams ECCMed Scorpion with 80 Gravimetric Strength. Raven does not look good with 3x PDS II, there is not much to put in there, because w/o PDS II siege missiles will not fit. Assuming one can fly cruise Raven or amarr BS, amarr BS will do more damage regardless of range. All low slots on Caldari ships are redundant and no more than 3 are needed, while all ship line up lacks medium slots for PvP. CCP believes that 8 medium slot tank is excessive and will lead to extreme carebearing. I really dont want to feed the troll too much, but can I order 100 falcons from you for the price of a scorpion (since a scorpion is more expensive according to you, it should be a good deal for you). And why would you put 3 PDUs on a raven? Ever considered using a reactor control? More than 3 lows is useless? Either you are happy with 2 damage mods (in which case all the low fitting mods needed shouldnt be a problem anyway), or you dont fit a damage control.
Noah Cyril	Posted - 2009.01.23 15:37:00 - [199] Originally by: Opertone caldari sucks since... there are no static ground fields, such as 400 km wide areas with no warping allowed. No 100 km points, if there were 250 km points caldari would rule EVE. Raven is inferior because it can't fit 6 SIEGE II and 2x Blasters... it has not enough Grid. 5 low slots don't serve any role, in fact raven needs 8 medium slots and 3 lows to be successful in PvP. Scorpion is a pure fail, it can't get over 250 DPS. Not a combat ship. Good for support and E-WAR. Rokh is not any good. If you are happy with 350 DPS compared to 1300 DPS of Megathrone then Rokh is your choice. Rokh has the worst tracking of all large gun sytems. Caldari don't get enough medium slots, it is laughable. Range and sniping is better on apocalypse and megathrone - they can use tracking links to improve it. Range and sniping is non-existent concept in EvE. Caldari miss X-Large shield extender. Caldari miss DPS and tank, cladari can't tank and use e-war and tackle. Caldari fail from the start. rokh cant do dps?? it can do a similar job as the hyp, just not as good as it lack the 5% dmg per lvl, but it can still do mroe then 1k. and it got a shield resis bonus rather then a repping bonus the hyp got, which plenty players cry for the armour resis bonus insted. Scorpion is not for dps any way.... and if u see 1 in the other gang, wat u do first? yes kill the jamming ****er. but u ever though of fitting a full tank(DCU 3 plates, 5 LSE and 2 invlun) + 1 ECM burst II on? 143k EHP and a high chance of breaking lock of any 1 within 18k and up to half chance at 24k. while the other gang is wasting ammo on that bait ECM ship that dont even do much ECM that cost 100mill with fittings and resis rigs, u may well, poped a few ships already.... and caldari do hav pretty good slots lay out. ie the raven can hav the standard 3 with a 1600 plate or PDU or even 4 damage mod with a DCU and 6 mind slots to fit a decent buffer tank with the point. caldari r great fleet support ships, 6 mids and 5 lows while u can go full tank and dps and leave the tackle for the inti. the mega/apoc/baddon or any other armour tanking ship need to choose tank or dps or a bit of both while they can fit the full tackle wihich is not always needed if u hav enough inti or HIC. u still want to complain when u can hav full tank and gank? even i dont think the LSE is quite enough for the BS, but the fact that u can use it on crusier and BC ballance it out and u hav any idea the passive shield rokh can tank and the buffer? some drakes r already a pain for its size cause of the natrual fast recharge rate of shield + BS size extender. raven + rokh can do more then 1k dps at range..... is full gank+ full tank and little Ewar or ok Ewar with limited tank and gank..... i tihnk i am going to pick the first 1....
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.23 16:02:00 - [200] Originally by: Opertone Originally by: chrisss0r Edited by: chrisss0r on 21/01/2009 12:15:35 Originally by: Opertone Raven is inferior because it can't fit 6 SIEGE II and 2x Blasters... it has not enough Grid. 5 low slots don't serve any role, in fact raven needs 8 medium slots and 3 lows to be successful in PvP. LOL everyone why really insists on fitting 2 guns in the utility slots of a raven just because it makes the eft-dmg go up should call himself LORD OF THE FAIL from now on. Left alone the F:A:I:L: of directly comparing 350 dps at 250 km with 1300 overloaded dps at point blank. you lack understanding every other ship can utilize its full weapon potential. Megathrone gets extra launcher, typhoon gets 4 launchers and it all fits well. Raven is ****ty with 3 low slots essentially filled with PDS II. Go back to your minimatar cave and do rehearsals of ships and fittings. Caldari aren't good at all because they are a fail concept. Optimal and sniping is laughable... 350 DPS won't break anyones tank, since at that range enemy can use remote repairs on fleet. The failure is strong in this one.

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