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Cohkka Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2009.02.12 16:25:00 - [181] Originally by: Sensaja gallente has less range to subtract 50% from and are thus less affected.. minmatar doesn't give a ** about optimal since they work in falloff.. You have no idea what you're talking about whatsoever. Stop arguing. As a reminder: TDs affect optimal AND falloff equally. And you also do know that your "argument" works ther other way around, too, the nominal effective range increase with T2 ammo is higher with Pulses? To put it in your words: "amarr has more range to add 50% to and are thus more affected.." Quote:** try a little experiment and have a friend put a t2 TD on your pulse ship and then check the range of all your crystals EXCEPT for scorch.. then you'll notice something. Why don't you try it yourself? Maybe you'll notice you're in need of an MWD, you know... they magicaly make you go faster. Don't speak english, just F5, F5, F5...
Avoid Gallente Vale Tudo. Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.12 16:39:00 - [182] Tbh i dont know what half of you are talking about. I use blasters all day long, kill whatever that moves, shuttles frigs u name it. Is it the optimal that is poor ? I dont know whit you guys, but ill rather have my optimal closer to 0km then 10km. As most of you guys know 10km+ is bbq range for large pulse lasers, and that is the last place i want to be. Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes "Here was the brand of the cigerates i smoke" I don't smoke - Cortes
Sensaja	Posted - 2009.02.12 16:50:00 - [183] Edited by: Sensaja on 12/02/2009 16:55:58 Originally by: Cohkka Originally by: Sensaja gallente has less range to subtract 50% from and are thus less affected.. minmatar doesn't give a ** about optimal since they work in falloff.. You have no idea what you're talking about whatsoever. Stop arguing. As a reminder: TDs affect optimal AND falloff equally**. And you also do know that your "argument" works ther other way around, too, the nominal effective range increase with T2 ammo is higher with Pulses? To put it in your words: "amarr has more range to add 50% to and are thus more affected.." optimal range and tracking negater scripts were introduced to TD's a while ago.. you should check em out.. long range becoming mid range is tolerable because they can still fire from a distance.. short range becoming marginally shorter is completely irellevant. mid range however.. becoming short range.. presents a huge issue when the mid range and the tanking is the primary advantage of flying amarr.. especially since short range weapons outdamages mid range weapons completely.. thus scorch solves the problem.. while the TD II with optimal script renders the other crystals besides the very weak damaging ones useless.. scorch still allows the pilot doing a little bit of damage at somewhat mid range.. tradeoff.. you gotta skill and fit t2 large's on the ship and can't cram fits in using deadspace or faction guns.
Avoid Gallente Vale Tudo. Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.12 16:53:00 - [184] Edited by: Avoid on 12/02/2009 16:54:36 Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 12/02/2009 16:49:05 Originally by: Avoid Tbh i dont know what half of you are talking about. I use blasters all day long, kill whatever that moves, shuttles frigs u name it. Is it the optimal that is poor ? I dont know whit you guys, but ill rather have my optimal closer to 0km then 10km. As most of you guys know 10km+ is bbq range for large pulse lasers, and that is the last place i want to be. Dude optimal has a max range not a minimum, a 30km optimal is not at its best at exactly 30km its at its best from 0-30km, the only thing that alters how much you hit for inside your optimal is tracking/transversal. If a system with 30km optimal and a system with 15km optimal with the same tracking and dmg hit the same stationary ship they would do the exact same dmg from 0-15km, over 15km the ship with the 15km optimal does less but the ship with the 30km still hit for its max dmg out to 30km. Not true. Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes "Here was the brand of the cigerates i smoke" I don't smoke - Cortes
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.12 16:56:00 - [185] Originally by: Avoid Originally by: Murina Originally by: Avoid Tbh i dont know what half of you are talking about. I use blasters all day long, kill whatever that moves, shuttles frigs u name it. Is it the optimal that is poor ? I dont know whit you guys, but ill rather have my optimal closer to 0km then 10km. As most of you guys know 10km+ is bbq range for large pulse lasers, and that is the last place i want to be. Dude optimal has a max range not a minimum, a 30km optimal is not at its best at exactly 30km its at its best from 0-30km, the only thing that alters how much you hit for inside your optimal is tracking/transversal. If a system with 30km optimal and a system with 15km optimal with the same tracking and dmg hit the same stationary ship they would do the exact same dmg from 0-15km, over 15km the ship with the 15km optimal does less but the ship with the 30km still hit for its max dmg out to 30km. Not true. I think you need to check your facts dude....seriously. Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal cos lasers fragment when you approach them
Emily Poast The Whipping Post	Posted - 2009.02.12 16:56:00 - [186] You know, if they would just allow blasters to swap ammo instantly like the Amarr do, it would go a long way toward helping. We would at least has some better damage options at range while being kited. That 10 second reload time makes using anything but AM a waste.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.12 16:58:00 - [187] Edited by: Murina on 12/02/2009 17:00:18 Originally by: Cohkka As a reminder: TDs affect optimal AND falloff equally. Originally by: Sensaja optimal range and tracking negater scripts were introduced to TD's a while ago.. you should check em out.. Optimal and falloff are both ranges bud, and are effected by the range script....... Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal cos lasers fragment when you approach them
Avoid Gallente Vale Tudo. Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.12 17:01:00 - [188] Originally by: Murina Originally by: Avoid Originally by: Murina Originally by: Avoid Tbh i dont know what half of you are talking about. I use blasters all day long, kill whatever that moves, shuttles frigs u name it. Is it the optimal that is poor ? I dont know whit you guys, but ill rather have my optimal closer to 0km then 10km. As most of you guys know 10km+ is bbq range for large pulse lasers, and that is the last place i want to be. Dude optimal has a max range not a minimum, a 30km optimal is not at its best at exactly 30km its at its best from 0-30km, the only thing that alters how much you hit for inside your optimal is tracking/transversal. If a system with 30km optimal and a system with 15km optimal with the same tracking and dmg hit the same stationary ship they would do the exact same dmg from 0-15km, over 15km the ship with the 15km optimal does less but the ship with the 30km still hit for its max dmg out to 30km. Not true. I think you need to check your facts dude....seriously. Lets do that, why dont you pick up a geddon and move to agil, and show me how good puls's hit at okm range. Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes "Here was the brand of the cigerates i smoke" I don't smoke - Cortes
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.12 17:06:00 - [189] Originally by: Avoid Lets do that, why dont you pick up a geddon and move to agil, and show me how good pulse's hit at okm range. No need. See with 0 transversal all ships hit for their max amount inside their optimal with 0 loss of dmg all the way to 0 its how the mechanics work bud. Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal cos lasers fragment when you approach them
Sensaja	Posted - 2009.02.12 17:13:00 - [190] Edited by: Sensaja on 12/02/2009 17:14:32 Originally by: Cohkka Originally by: Sensaja gallente has less range to subtract 50% from and are thus less affected.. minmatar doesn't give a ** about optimal since they work in falloff.. You have no idea what you're talking about whatsoever. Stop arguing. As a reminder: TDs affect optimal AND falloff equally**. And you also do know that your "argument" works ther other way around, too, the nominal effective range increase with T2 ammo is higher with Pulses? To put it in your words: "amarr has more range to add 50% to and are thus more affected.." optimal range and tracking negater scripts were introduced to TD's a while ago.. you should check em out.. i'll show you how lack of falloff is of little concern to blaster boats if you fit TD II's and use your noggin.. long range becoming mid range is tolerable because they can still fire from a distance.. short range becoming marginally shorter is completely irellevant. mid range however.. becoming short range.. presents a huge issue when the mid range and the tanking is the primary advantage of flying amarr.. why mid range is more damaged by being divided by 2 than ultra short and ultra long range, lies in the mean/average damage effective combat range.. which is mid range.. especially since short range weapons outdamages mid range weapons completely.. and removing the range on midrange weapons pushes them towards targets which have a more damaging weapon system (short range) if they want to be able to hit something. meaning that the mid range is actually helping the short range target get closer if it decides to actually hit something whilst having a TD II on it.. thus more than halving the travel time for the blasterboat.. since the blasterboat is moving towards the amarr ship whilst the amarr ship is slowboating towards the blasterboat to try and hit it from 22.5km with scorch. this is especially true considering the issues of fitting beams on for instance a geddon. thus fitting a td II on a blaster boat if fighting amarr boats is one of the steps to making blasters viable in fleet combat, but nobody seems to f'ing notice! all they do is whine about how amarr shoots their lasers on their pretty hulls, and switch to slow moving rail boats instead. thus scorch solves the problem.. while the TD II with optimal script renders the other crystals besides the very weak damaging ones useless.. scorch still allows the pilot doing a little bit of damage at somewhat mid range.. tradeoff.. you gotta skill and fit t2 large's on the ship and can't cram fits in using deadspace or faction guns. issues: due to people being saggy boobs about it and not fitting td II's whatsoever..amarr pilots have started to use scorch without limitations to provide a very effective mid range advantage with good firepower, and the other less damaging charges need not be used because nobody is pinning them down with TD II's.. instead of adopting TD II's when fighting amarr.. (which is the EWAR with the most favourable range relative to targets usual range) people go to the forums and asks to either nerf amarr or boost the other weapons.. all cause of one little f'ing t2 crystal that was meant as a defence for an EWAR that is horribly easy to use but hardly ever is.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.12 17:23:00 - [191] Originally by: Sensaja long range becoming mid range is tolerable because they can still fire from a distance.. short range becoming marginally shorter is completely irrelevant. mid range however.. becoming short range.. presents a huge issue when the mid range and the tanking is the primary advantage of flying amarr.. Still preaching that gallente should fit ewar just to stand a chance in a 1 v 1 engagement on sissi is silly......,we are discussing realistic gang fighting on TQ. Originally by: Sensaja meaning that the mid range is actually helping the short range target get closer if it decides to actually hit something whilst having a TD II on it.. thus halving the travel time for the blasterboat.. Actually it gives the lasers room to get up to speed and burn away from the blaster ship while hitting for nice dps at under 30km and very nice at 22km. as well as reducing the relative speed between the ships the blaster ship doing 900ms the laser doing 700 away = 200ms gain over 15km = 75 seconds of 800-1000ish raw dps from the lasers before the blaster gets into optimal range......ouch and i did not even include the webbed speeds at 13km... Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal cos lasers fragment when you approach them
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.02.12 17:26:00 - [192] Originally by: Avoid Lets do that, why dont you pick up a geddon and move to agil, and show me how good puls's hit at okm range. At 0 km, pulse will hit just as well as blasters, or ACs, or any turret, no matter what the transversal. That is, they'll all miss because of the divide-by-zero bug. But at 1 metre range and zero transveral, they'll all hit for full damage.
Cohkka Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2009.02.12 17:30:00 - [193] Sensaja, do yourself a favor and don't waste my/your/everybodys time. You have no concept of what you're talking about. In fact I believe you lack common sense to be able to draw conclusions. All you do is spam the thread untill it gets burried in a pile of nonsense, everybody with a brain will avoid it and it'll die. Avoid, you should avoid embrassing yourself for not knowing a fact that only the ones living under a rock would NOT know. Don't speak english, just F5, F5, F5...
Avoid Gallente Vale Tudo. Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.12 17:32:00 - [194] Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 12/02/2009 17:08:03 Originally by: Avoid Lets do that, why dont you pick up a geddon and move to agil, and show me how good pulse's hit at okm range. No need. See....,with 0 transversal all ships hit for their max amount inside their optimal with 0 loss of dmg all the way to 0km its how the mechanics work bud. [b Only movement/transversal effects dmg inside your optimal range.[/b] You need to tell abit more about that graph. What is the setup's of the ships ? Megathron whit 7 ions, 5 ogre II and so on ? As im reading the graph. There is drones in the picture. Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes "Here was the brand of the cigerates i smoke" I don't smoke - Cortes
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.12 17:36:00 - [195] Edited by: Murina on 12/02/2009 17:36:54 Originally by: Avoid You need to tell abit more about that graph. What is the setup's of the ships ? Megathron whit 7 ions, 5 ogre II and so on ? As im reading the graph. There is drones in the picture. Why?.....,it shows what everybody who is not a noob knows. That inside optimal ranges gunnery systems will hit for their highest dmg against a stationary target without a loss of dmg due to closer range, only when you go outside optimal does the dmg falloff hence the name "falloff".... Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal cos lasers fragment when you approach them
Avoid Gallente Vale Tudo. Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.12 18:12:00 - [196] Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 12/02/2009 17:36:54 Originally by: Avoid You need to tell abit more about that graph. What is the setup's of the ships ? Megathron whit 7 ions, 5 ogre II and so on ? As im reading the graph. There is drones in the picture. Why?.....,it shows what everybody who is not a noob knows. That inside optimal ranges gunnery systems will hit for their highest dmg against a stationary target without a loss of dmg due to closer range, only when you go outside optimal does the dmg falloff hence the name "falloff".... This is 7 Neutrons whit Void ammo at 0km to a geddon. 17:37:35 Combat Your group of Neutron Blaster Cannon II misses Del Boy [FUKKU]<PRVTR>'Doom'(Armageddon) completely. 17:37:39 Combat Your group of Neutron Blaster Cannon II misses Del Boy [FUKKU]<PRVTR>'Doom'(Armageddon) completely. 17:37:44 Combat Your group of Neutron Blaster Cannon II misses Del Boy [FUKKU]<PRVTR>'Doom'(Armageddon) completely. 17:37:49 Combat Your group of Neutron Blaster Cannon II misses Del Boy [FUKKU]<PRVTR>'Doom'(Armageddon) completely. 17:37:53 Combat Your group of Neutron Blaster Cannon II misses Del Boy [FUKKU]<PRVTR>'Doom'(Armageddon) completely. 17:37:58 Combat Your group of Neutron Blaster Cannon II misses Del Boy [FUKKU]<PRVTR>'Doom'(Armageddon) completely. 17:38:03 Combat Your group of Neutron Blaster Cannon II misses Del Boy [FUKKU]<PRVTR>'Doom'(Armageddon) completely. The 5 Ogre II's would still hit at this range doing 317 dps. So basicly the shape of the graph you have, does not match what i see in the game. From what i see in the game, drones starts a 317, as the range increase, so does the damage witch peak at the optimal range and then fall down again. Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes "Here was the brand of the cigerates i smoke" I don't smoke - Cortes
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.12 18:19:00 - [197] Edited by: Murina on 12/02/2009 18:23:01 The divide-by-zero bug makes you miss at exactly 0km, at 1m upwards the graph applies ffs. Quote: The 5 Ogre II's would still hit at this range doing 317 dps. The ogres are not at your range....,they are over 0km from the target orbiting as drones tend to do. Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal cos lasers fragment when you approach them
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.02.12 18:27:00 - [198] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 12/02/2009 18:27:18 Originally by: Murina Originally by: Omara Otawan but the claims you see all over the forums that large blasters dont hit anything but moons are blatant lies I have never seen those claims, please show some links as they are wrong unless the target is under 2km. I cant be arsed to search really, but I guess a forum search with "blasters + bellum + eternus" should yield some results already. Basically every other whinethread about blasters has it at least one time per page.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.12 18:43:00 - [199] Edited by: Murina on 12/02/2009 18:45:56 Originally by: Omara Otawan Originally by: Murina Originally by: Omara Otawan but the claims you see all over the forums that large blasters dont hit anything but moons are blatant lies I have never seen those claims, please show some links as they are wrong unless the target is under 2km. I cant be arsed to search really, but I guess a forum search with "blasters + bellum + eternus" should yield some results already. I have checked and you are totally exaggerating what he and others are saying to its most absurd extreme in the hopes that it will be dismissed. Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal cos lasers fragment when you approach them
5pinDizzy	Posted - 2009.02.12 21:20:00 - [200] Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 12/02/2009 21:23:35 Personally I have 5 million skillpoints in gunnery, and level 4 in large blasters atm. My experience is without tracking mods in lows on a non-megathron, I can't hit a battlecruiser thats 5000km or closer to me when we've both moving at non mwd/ab speed. Hits a battleship well as long as the battleship is not right on top of you. As for cruisers, I can have them standing still with my battleship also standing still in optimal, and half the shots will miss and the ones that hit seem to do around 50% damage, but then that goes without saying when using antimatter ammo at short ranges considering what I said about the battlecruiser. I personally accept that lasers are superior to blasters, if only because they are pretty much the same sort of weapon with a ton more range. I'm trying to use blasters just for my own fun, used lasers for years and got bored of them, whether they are fotm or not and yes, they own.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2009.02.12 21:23:00 - [201] Originally by: Goumindong Just as much for rail ships. You can't complain that tracking sucks on rails then say "and you've got tackle so the enemies never get close enough to avoid your fire" The difference is that pulses will track them easily even without the rapiers, whereas rail-fitted gallente ships will 1) have a way harder time doing so, 2) will do less damage period (yes, 6% less is not much, but it's still less) and 3) have a worse overall fitting. Originally by: Goumindong Yea, pulse ships are good, they are the best in medium sized engagements. Blaster ships are the best in small sized engagements. Rails are the best again(Rokh) in large sized engagements. As soon as you have a dedicated tackler and a falcon, you might as well be in pulse boat. So blasters have such a small area where they are the best, I don't see why you have such a problem with them being boosted slightly. Originally by: Goumindong They're supposed to be. What, you want blasters to be the best in small and medium gangs? You want no tactical differentiation between the two sets? Goum, don't be silly. I never said that, neither do I think it. Some guy simply stated something erroneous, and I corrected him. That is all.
prodalt	Posted - 2009.02.12 21:49:00 - [202] Originally by: Theron Gyrow 1. Yep, Mega can fit a reasonable tank with 2plate, DC2, 2ANP2, 2dam mod. It will have CPU problems with its mids even with ANPs, though - no scram. Geddon will fit 3dam mod, ofc. 2. So, since tracking doesn't matter in medium gangs, you support reducing pulse tracking? That's where you say that Amarr should be the best, not in small gangs where tracking even matters? 3. If 6% DPS doesn't matter at all, let's give pulses 6% less damage than the rails instead? 1. Yes and? That is accounted for 2. There is a range of usefulness. The tracking reflects that. Pulse lasers are on the smaller side of medium gangs, rails are on the larger side(where their increased range has even more advantages) 3. 6% does not matter when the weapon system in question is supposed to be weaker in the situation it does 6% less DPS. Rails are not supposed to be better medium gang weapons than pulses, they are supposed to be adequate. Originally by: Murina 20-50% is more than 30 and blasters do not get 300% more dmg than lasers. While lasers do full dmg from 20-30 and blasters are a joke and from 30-45 lasers still do full dmg and blasters do 0. No, they really do. Look at your own graphs. You might have to actually examine them to understand what they say. The key here is that you see a large area and think that means something, when in reality the issue is the difference between the two points on a single axis. Quote: Massively less ehp and less dmg than amarr and useless tracking compared to pulse ships. You debunk nothing you just switch your math calculation to suit your intent. Except not massively less EHP and DMG than Amarr. Look at the actual numbers before making those claims And the tracking in those gangs is not a big deal.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.12 21:52:00 - [203] Prodalt is me: Originally by: Deschenus Maximus The difference is that pulses will track them easily even without the rapiers, whereas rail-fitted gallente ships will 1) have a way harder time doing so, 2) will do less damage period (yes, 6% less is not much, but it's still less) and 3) have a worse overall fitting. Which is irrelevant if they're tackled is it not? If they're not tackled, then either they A: aren't sticking around, or B: aren't sticking around within a range where laser ships can hit them. Originally by: Goumindong As soon as you have a dedicated tackler and a falcon, you might as well be in pulse boat. So blasters have such a small area where they are the best, I don't see why you have such a problem with them being boosted slightly. And if either of your dedicated tackler or falcon dies then you're screwed. For that matter, if you've got a dedicated tackler and falcon you might as well be in a blaster boat(small targets die fast in falloff anyway, more utility and speed allow you to cope better with friendly losses, higher DPS means faster through hard targets). Whether or not you're efficient only depends on how long it takes you to close to a target.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2009.02.12 22:05:00 - [204] Edited by: Deschenus Maximus on 12/02/2009 22:06:06 Edited because I fail at quoting. Originally by: Goumindong Which is irrelevant if they're tackled is it not? If they're not tackled, then either they A: aren't sticking around, or B: aren't sticking around within a range where laser ships can hit them. Not necessarily. For point A: They can be tackled, but not webbed/scrammed (thinking of crow here). For point B: sometimes they'll be dead before they can get out of megapulse range. Originally by: Goumindong And if either of your dedicated tackler or falcon dies then you're screwed. For that matter, if you've got a dedicated tackler and falcon you might as well be in a blaster boat(small targets die fast in falloff anyway, more utility and speed allow you to cope better with friendly losses, higher DPS means faster through hard targets). Whether or not you're efficient only depends on how long it takes you to close to a target. And that's exactly what I was thinking of. It's a very influential factor. So unless you're fighting only other blaster boats, sooner or later it's going to come into play.
mishkof Caldari Dirty Denizens	Posted - 2009.02.12 22:13:00 - [205] I do not think that saying much is neccesary as Murina has pretty much won every point in this debate as far as I am concerned. The only thing I will add is that I prefer ammar weapons because their range is optimal in many more situations then blasters including small, medium and large gang tasks. They do not depend on a MWD nearly as much. They have good range while still being able to fit a very, very good tank. I will take all of those points over the only real advantage of having a few more midslots on average across all ships, and the highest dmg in a 2 KM distant realisticaly with gallente.
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.12 22:29:00 - [206] Originally by: mishkof I do not think that saying much is neccesary as Murina has pretty much won every point in this debate as far as I am concerned. He have?. Tbh, i don't think he have been right in much in this topic. The graphs for example is a good enough proof that he's wrong. Check out my new flash web page 'Dark Paradise'
Chris Liath Gallente The Vorlon Empire Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.02.12 22:30:00 - [207] Yes. Boost blasters. /thread "Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.12 22:57:00 - [208] Edited by: NightmareX on 12/02/2009 22:59:14 Originally by: Chris Liath Yes. Boost blasters. /thread Maybe you should get one Boom Blaster into your ship. It might help you to get more boom out of your blasters. Check out my new flash web page 'Dark Paradise'
Nicholas DW Infusion.	Posted - 2009.02.13 02:06:00 - [209] Just fly the Falcon.
DJ Tim Chin Chinnery	Posted - 2009.02.13 02:09:00 - [210] Originally by: Nicholas DW Just fly the Falcon. BOOST FALCONS. --~-- Don't Worry Baby, You Can Touch My Chin Anytime.

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