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Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:32:00 - [91] Originally by: Zurin Arctus Quote: Its obvious isnt it? Its 'high end content'. Trained everything? Got your ships of choice skills maxed? Ok, new T3 ships - wont take me a moment to skill those up aswell...oh..wait.. These arent ships for newbs guys. C. ITT: Old players and snobs ask what's wrong with a horrible mechanic because they have 80,000,000 SP's and expect everyone else to. Well I dont have anywhere close to 80000000 SPs. If you're going to be a T3 pilot you're clearly going to have to invest time in staying in one - rather than just ISK as you do currently and which of course some players are frankly rolling in. What's the risk in loosing a T2 cruiser if you've got 50bil in the bank?? Nothing. This mechanic means loosing your ship has ramifications beyond your wallet. Remember there are thousands of versions of these ships. Now, trying to train up to fly all those varieties would take an eternity (with me so far?) - so, why not have the skill up speed pretty quick (so folks get a chance to fly a whole different batch of ships), ah - a problem to little skill training time for that class of ship. Answer - make the skills vulnerable. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
keepiru Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:32:00 - [92] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Originally by: CCP Chronotis Tech 3 ships and the subsystem skill loss mechanic will be detailed by Nozh in his blog which is due out soon. As with everything, things always change before release and when Apocryha arrives on sisi next week, we can and will be making changes based on feedback there. If it turns out that this mechanic or any other is not working out based on that feedback then we will change it or remove it. Do I actually need to test that or can I tell you what I think of this kind of game design right now? ... and I really think they should boost T2 plate HP.
Zurin Arctus	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:32:00 - [93] Edited by: Zurin Arctus on 07/02/2009 20:36:40 Edited by: Zurin Arctus on 07/02/2009 20:32:55 See what I'm doing? Its called holding my opinion till I have more facts. No, what you're doing is called ignoring the facts because you don't care how very wrong you are. You're welcome to be wrong, just don't be so pushy about it. Quote: Do I actually need to test that or can I tell you what I think of this kind of game design right now? ugh /agree Quote: Well I dont have anywhere close to 80000000 SPs. If you're going to be a T3 pilot you're clearly going to have to invest time in staying in one - rather than (Blah, blah, blah...) This issue really is very simple. People want to be free to train the skills they want. People don't want to have to revisit skills at the cost of valuable training time just because they lost a ship.
Shirley Serious Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:36:00 - [94] hmm, increased risk when flying these things. People like to reduce risk. If it's implemented badly, then they become blob weapons, only ever used when its overwhelming odds. doesn't immediately seem a good thing for small scale conflicts. Need more details. Yes. Yes, I am.
5pinDizzy	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:38:00 - [95] I think it's a great idea too. As already said, T3 is for high end characters. It doesn't look like they are intending for their abilities to be farmed by rich pvp organisations who turn them into a new flavour of the month by only building and handing out t3 ships too all their players. More something special that you only see now and then, like Titans were originally supposed to be. It would be a nice thing to see problems in the game you can't just solve by throwing isk at them. And if you're one of the high end characters that stubbornly decided to keep taking them out and keep losing your skillpoints from them... oh look, the playing field for the 1 million skillpoint noobs who are still training tech 1 just looked a little more even. My only concern is that due to the nature of the average eve player, the few fair fights that still exist will go out the window as everyone ganks everyone 15v1 etc..., not wanting to lose their skillpoints, and that would be horrible, highsec and lowsec would be like nullsec.
Xavier Zedicus Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:38:00 - [96] OR does the ship learn and when it is destroyed so is the ships experience????
Grath Telkin Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:39:00 - [97] Originally by: Zurin Arctus Edited by: Zurin Arctus on 07/02/2009 20:32:55 See what I'm doing? Its called holding my opinion till I have more facts. No, what you're doing is called ignoring the facts because you don't care how very wrong you are. You're welcome to be wrong, just don't be so pushy about it. Quote: Do I actually need to test that or can I tell you what I think of this kind of game design right now? ugh /agree Whats wrong about it? You gave me a very limited amount of information and asked if what you told me was a good idea. Frankly, you didn't give me enough info to tell if it was a bad idea or not. MUCH LIKE WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT T3 SHIPS. If you had been more specific, I could give you a better answer, MUCH LIKE T3 SHIPS, but to tell you "yes, thats a dumb idea" would be a potential failure on my part, as the man could ride the bike off the building and pop a shute, he could ditch the bike and be wearing a glide suit. Any of those things could make me wrong. Those are just a few variables stoping me from forming an opinion on your question, whereas, with t3 ships the variables are CONSIDERABLY higher. How long do the skills take to train? How hard are they to get? How much are the ships? Are they even viable for PVP for me to even care? How many skill points do i actually lose upon the ships destruction (arguably, if your done training for other things, how much would this really hurt you if you only lost a few thousand sp) How easy are the ships to build and procure (if its a pain, why deviate from my amarr specialty that I've been flying for 2 years now). YOU can be as wrong as you want, its your right, but don't be blindly ignorant about it.
Zurin Arctus	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:41:00 - [98] Originally by: 5pinDizzy I think it's a great idea too. As already said, T3 is for high end characters. It doesn't look like they are intending for their abilities to be farmed by rich pvp organisations who turn them into a new flavour of the month by only building and handing out t3 ships too all their players. More something special that you only see now and then, like Titans were originally supposed to be. It would be a nice thing to see problems in the game you can't just solve by throwing isk at them. And if you're one of the high end characters that stubbornly decided to keep taking them out and keep losing your skillpoints from them... oh look, the playing field for the 1 million skillpoint noobs who are still training tech 1 just looked a little more even. My only concern is that due to the nature of the average eve player, the few fair fights that still exist will go out the window as everyone ganks everyone 15v1 etc..., not wanting to lose their skillpoints, and that would be horrible, highsec and lowsec would be like nullsec. 1. Consider posting on your main so you don't look like a sockpuppet ;) 2. Notice that section I set in bold there? Yes? That's where you defeated your own argument. But just to add a few nails to the coffin, the kind of extreme risk-aversive behavior this mechanic would add to eve is something I don't think we want.
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:44:00 - [99] Originally by: Zurin Arctus This issue really is very simple. People want to be free to train the skills they want. People don't want to have to revisit skills at the cost of valuable training time just because they lost a ship. Nobodies forcing you to fly T3. Think about this for a second: You want to implement T3, you want the ships to be good - possibly better than T2. How do you stop T3 making T2 redundant, T1 total trash whilst not making T3 so prohibitively expensive that only the mega billionaires can afford to fly them? At some stage you've got to neuter the demand - otherwise either prices will skyrocket or, if theyre as cheap and as available as T2 then T2 will just be worthless (or close to it). C.
Dr Ming Mindworks	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:45:00 - [100] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Originally by: CCP Chronotis Tech 3 ships and the subsystem skill loss mechanic will be detailed by Nozh in his blog which is due out soon. As with everything, things always change before release and when Apocrypha arrives on sisi next week, we can and will be making changes based on feedback there. If it turns out that this mechanic or any other is not working out based on that feedback then we will change it or remove it. Do I actually need to test that or can I tell you what I think of this kind of game design right now? How the hell were you planning on testing this? Were you planning to not get blown up on the test server?
Zurin Arctus	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:48:00 - [101] Quote: If you had been more specific, I could give you a better answer, MUCH LIKE T3 SHIPS, but to tell you "yes, thats a dumb idea" would be a potential failure on my part, as the man could ride the bike off the building and pop a shute, he could ditch the bike and be wearing a glide suit. Any of those things could make me wrong. I'm sorry Grath. I missed most of what you said there. I'm still laughing too hard from when you implied the kind of bike/skyscr@per would make it less of a bad idea. As for the base jumping thing you added when you realized you weren't making sense, let's stop playing word games, shall we? It's a bad idea in principle, and I don't need to know anything more about TK3 to say so.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:48:00 - [102] Anything that goes against the ship -> pod -> medical clone and SP gain only depending on attributes -> BAD. Being in a ship for a long time should NOT give you an edge over other people who just bought the ship that have the same total SP distributed in a similar way, and limiting some skill (or skill-equivalent) learning to being "physically" somewhere is silly. You can scrap the whole thing already, you don't even need to get our feedback "after we tested it".
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:49:00 - [103] Originally by: Dr Ming Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Originally by: CCP Chronotis Tech 3 ships and the subsystem skill loss mechanic will be detailed by Nozh in his blog which is due out soon. As with everything, things always change before release and when Apocrypha arrives on sisi next week, we can and will be making changes based on feedback there. If it turns out that this mechanic or any other is not working out based on that feedback then we will change it or remove it. Do I actually need to test that or can I tell you what I think of this kind of game design right now? How the hell were you planning on testing this? Were you planning to not get blown up on the test server? You're assuming the skill training time equates to T2 and T1 skill training times. My guess is it wont -they'll be much much shorter. C.
Balsak Minmatar Es and Whizz	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:50:00 - [104] Ok maybe i'm the one misinterpreting things here. The way I am understanding this so far is that the skill you lose when you lose a tech 3 ship is a skill that's tied directly yo the ship and not your character like other skills. Also the longer you have the ship the more that skill goes up but once the ship goes boom then that particular skill is gone and its replaced when you get into a new tech 3 ship. I don't get how people are making it out to be like you just got pod killed without an up to date clone and you lose a level on every skill. CCP aren't complete and total ****s like some of you people make them out to be. Seems to me like a lot of little whiny cry baby *es that just love to have a temper tantrum on the forums and rage at CCP. Please just go rage on your parents and let them beat you a little while, might do you some good. Seriously people, wait and see how this comes out when the expansion is released. Until then STFU and quit ***ing about something you don't even know how is gonna work yet. Now just in case these ships do come in with the OMGSKYISFALLING skill loss you DON'T have to fly them at all. They will not be overpowered pwnmobiles and they will go pop just like any other ship in the game with some thought. I may be reading this all wrong but then again I have only been around since beta and I kind of have an idea of what CCPs thinking is behind everything they do.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:52:00 - [105] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Tech 3 ships and the subsystem skill loss mechanic will be detailed by Nozh in his blog which is due out soon. As with everything, things always change before release and when Apocrypha arrives on sisi next week, we can and will be making changes based on feedback there. If it turns out that this mechanic or any other is not working out based on that feedback then we will change it or remove it. Losing SP when you lose the ship is the stupidest thing I've ever heard, ahhahahaha.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:52:00 - [106] Originally by: Cailais You're assuming the skill training time equates to T2 and T1 skill training times. My guess is it wont -they'll be much much shorter. So what would be the point ? Sit in a ship for a couple of hours, be maxed-out ? Or would you actually have to "do something" to gain "subsystem SP" ? Didn't CCP devs already get the idea about why linking activity with skill gains is bad ? Thumbs down, no matter how they try to implement it. It just can't work in a "proper" EVE way.
Dr Ming Mindworks	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:52:00 - [107] Originally by: Cailais Originally by: Dr Ming Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Originally by: CCP Chronotis Tech 3 ships and the subsystem skill loss mechanic will be detailed by Nozh in his blog which is due out soon. As with everything, things always change before release and when Apocrypha arrives on sisi next week, we can and will be making changes based on feedback there. If it turns out that this mechanic or any other is not working out based on that feedback then we will change it or remove it. Do I actually need to test that or can I tell you what I think of this kind of game design right now? How the hell were you planning on testing this? Were you planning to not get blown up on the test server? You're assuming the skill training time equates to T2 and T1 skill training times. My guess is it wont -they'll be much much shorter. C. I'm assuming that the training times will be long enough to matter, because having training times that don't matter would be better implemented by just not having the training times at all.
Grath Telkin Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:53:00 - [108] Originally by: Zurin Arctus Quote: If you had been more specific, I could give you a better answer, MUCH LIKE T3 SHIPS, but to tell you "yes, thats a dumb idea" would be a potential failure on my part, as the man could ride the bike off the building and pop a shute, he could ditch the bike and be wearing a glide suit. Any of those things could make me wrong. I'm sorry Grath. I missed most of what you said there. I'm still laughing too hard from when you implied the kind of bike/skyscr@per would make it less of a bad idea. As for the base jumping thing you added when you realized you weren't making sense, let's stop playing word games, shall we? It's a bad idea in principle, and I don't need to know anything more about TK3 to say so. so basically you can sit and call me wrong, and tell me not to be pushy, while at the same time being a close minded redneck yourself. interesting. you also missed the point i was making, which you are obviously avoiding: Your spouting off like you know everything, when in fact you have very little knowledge about the ships. its like saying you don't like oysters even though you've never tried them simply because they look nasty in all the pictures you've seen.
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:53:00 - [109] Originally by: Akita T Anything that goes against the ship -> pod -> medical clone and SP gain only depending on attributes -> BAD. Being in a ship for a long time should NOT give you an edge over other people who just bought the ship that have the same total SP distributed in a similar way, and limiting some skill (or skill-equivalent) learning to being "physically" somewhere is silly. You can scrap the whole thing already, you don't even need to get our feedback "after we tested it". Why shouldnt it give you an edge? Having more ISK gives you an edge (implants, ability to replace ships quickly, better fittings), having more time in game overall gives you an edge (possibly higher skills, greater breadth of ship and modular options). What specifically is wrong with this mechanic over say an IS advantage? C.
Karl Luckner	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:55:00 - [110] Well, I like the idea. Keeps those things rare. If the ship itself "learns" and get's better by using it, loosing said "SP" only makes sense.
Juwi Kotch Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:55:00 - [111] As long as those T3 ships are not something close to undestroyable (meaning at least like a Titan), no one will fly them, and those ships will end up as a weird curiosity in the history of EVE. Just like the Dev who was responsible for this idea. Or are those ships not meant to be flown at all, but to add to the collections of ship collectors? Juwi Kotch
Zurin Arctus	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:58:00 - [112] Quote: so basically you can sit and call me wrong, and tell me not to be pushy, while at the same time being a close minded redneck yourself. interesting. you also missed the point i was making, which you are obviously avoiding: Your spouting off like you know everything, when in fact you have very little knowledge about the ships. its like saying you don't like oysters even though you've never tried them simply because they look nasty in all the pictures you've seen. You know, I'm not going to dignify you with another reply. You can come up with vacuous replies to my posts all day long, and I only have so much time to waste. So instead, I'll leave you with a good quote from another poster: Quote: Do I actually need to test that or can I tell you what I think of this kind of game design right now?
Atlas Oracle Minmatar Colossus Enterprises	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:58:00 - [113] this is pretty hilarious i can't figure out which is more hilarious: 1) the stupidity of sp loss 2) the "adapt or die" hardcore "we just want a fair fight (not really)" pvp'ers crying about it lawl
Grath Telkin Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:58:00 - [114] Originally by: Juwi Kotch As long as those T3 ships are not something close to undestroyable (meaning at least like a Titan), no one will fly them, and those ships will end up as a weird curiosity in the history of EVE. Juwi Kotch Thats actually wrong, I'm betting theres more than a few of us waiting to get into them, to see how they handle in a fight.
Grath Telkin Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:59:00 - [115] Originally by: Zurin Arctus Yes Im a close minded redneck Thought so
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:59:00 - [116] Originally by: Cailais Why shouldnt it give you an edge? Because it's not "EVE style". It totally clashes with the way EVE's skill system was set up until now. And no, change just for the sake of change is not a good idea. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:00:00 - [117] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Cailais You're assuming the skill training time equates to T2 and T1 skill training times. My guess is it wont -they'll be much much shorter. So what would be the point ? Sit in a ship for a couple of hours, be maxed-out ? Or would you actually have to "do something" to gain "subsystem SP" ? Didn't CCP devs already get the idea about why linking activity with skill gains is bad ? Thumbs down, no matter how they try to implement it. It just can't work in a "proper" EVE way. Depends on if it scales. For example you'll have rank 1 skills that effect attribute A, and rank 2 skills that effect attribute A, rank 3 skills - and so on and so forth. At some stage you have to decide if you're going to use that T3 ship. You surprise me, I didnt realise you were quite so risk averse. One of the reasons I believe some folks are whining so hard is that theyre now gripped by a real fear that their previous ISK advantage (a risk buffer) could be wiped out. Sure its harsh, cruel and unforgiving - but that's "proper eve". C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Caiman Graystock Caldari	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:00:00 - [118] If these skills that the ship learns run ALONG SIDE normal skills, then I don't care about losing the points associated with the ship and I think it is a genius mechanic and something we've missed for a while, to make people take more care of their ships when they use them. But if we have to train these skills at the cost of other skills and then risk losing SP... no thanks, no one will fly T3.
Ordais	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:02:00 - [119] Edited by: Ordais on 07/02/2009 21:06:05 man, CCP has a talent to find ways that ppl DONT USE the new things they implement. Well, i suppose T2 will remain standard. EDIT: its not that i have a problem losing skills, i lived with it when i played M59 (you lost all your stuff + skills when dieng in PvP). But i could grind it back. Here, i cannot.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:02:00 - [120] Originally by: Cailais At some stage you have to decide if you're going to use that T3 ship. You surprise me, I didnt realise you were quite so risk averse. Actually, quite the opposite. The "bears" will make the most of, if not ALL of the advantages of T3 ships (since they'll seldom lose them), while PVPers will have next to none of the advantages, because they'll probably lose them as soon as they get them (or shortly after). Don't get me wrong, I'm a "bear" myself and I love it, but I still don't think it's fair for the PVPers out there. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK

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