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Shadowsword Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:53:00 - [181] Originally by: Cailais Nobodies forcing you to fly T3. Think about this for a second: You want to implement T3, you want the ships to be good - possibly better than T2. How do you stop T3 making T2 redundant, T1 total trash whilst not making T3 so prohibitively expensive that only the mega billionaires can afford to fly them? At some stage you've got to neuter the demand - otherwise either prices will skyrocket or, if theyre as cheap and as available as T2 then T2 will just be worthless (or close to it). C. Sure, nobody is forced into T3 ships. But then, they are the central point of this extension. Worm-hole exploration is going to be about the T3 industry. There's been a considerable amount of efforts made by CCP about those. Now, let's suppose it end up like that, that you lose a signifiant amont of SP each time you go poof. Congratualtion, you are now THE primary, before even Marauder Pilots, because you can be hurt. Do you really think you're going to enjoy yourself much? From the industrial side, that means T3 manufacturers and explorers won't have much to do on the long term. They'll supply the demand from high-sec carebears, but once that demand is satisfied, then what? The high-sec dwellers won't lose their ships often, and the pvpers will hardly use them. And without that demand, worm-hole exploration might not be profitable anymore, and become another low-sec. It's works like that: If you want the key features of Apocrypha to become a signifiant part of Eve, T3 ships MUST have a worthwhile benefit/cost ratio, and with a signifiant SP component on the cost, the benefit is either not enough, or completely overpowered... ------------------------------------------
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:54:00 - [182] Witholding all comment until we find out exactly how this works. I'd only look silly if I got worked up over speculation based on incomplete information. --- Can't afford that BPO? Look here. 20:1 mineral compression The EVE f@h team
Dr Ming Mindworks	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:54:00 - [183] Originally by: Dau Imperius Whoo hoo. If thiis true then I say, adapt or die you PvPers. Myself, I'll be happily usiig mine in high sec space. Especially since I can't get a dread or carrier there. Seems fair to me; Lose your SP's for being cannon fodder. :) Might make you all actually think for once...Nah, that will never happen. You do realize that Jihadswarm version 2.0 would suicide gank you in high sec for the lulz if you lost SP out of it.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:56:00 - [184] Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Witholding all comment until we find out exactly how this works. I'd only look silly if I got worked up over speculation based on incomplete information. I thought that's 90% of the fun of it ? _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Caiman Graystock Caldari	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:56:00 - [185] IF the skillpoints lost belong to the ship and not to your character, I don't think there's anything worth whinging about. IF though we are losing SP we gained for the ship in place of for our characters then this is BS. But let's not let something like waiting for the devblog stop us.
Etchyboy Minmatar Firman AB 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:58:00 - [186] I think I would be ok witht he SP loss as long as the T3 skills could be learned in parralel with other skills.
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:59:00 - [187] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Cailais dont get me wrong the devil here will be in the details - what SPs? how long do they take to train? Is it a dual training process? How good are the ship parts? How available (and therefore costly) will they be? Well, let's see... we have the following possibilities: etc So, yeah, the devil IS in the details. T3 will be so heavily pre-nerfed it's not even worth talking about, and now they ALSO want to add some OTHER drawback on top of it ? Or, do they want THIS particular drawback to be the main "pre-nerf", and not actually pre-nerf them much or at all ? Either way, not a good outlook. Take it as you will Well I appreciate Im in the minority in liking this mechanic - for me the biggest rush / crushing blow I have in EVE is when I've actually got something 'on the line'. If there isn't a impact in losing something then you can't really experience either. I guess that's just me, although I am surprised at how these normally pro-risk forums have swung to abject terror at the thought of 'not winning'. I've noticed there are also some images of 'arenas' posted recently - again the emotional drama of two T3 pilots dualing it out makes so much more sense to me in that environment than say a couple of vets in expendable T1 frigates. Equally the idea of carebears 'leveling up' a T3 ship doesn't repulse me. Its simply another element of the production chain. You could buy a 'newborn' T3 ship, or one matured over time (like a fine wine?). Not only do you have a plethora of ship types in this example, but also another scale of capability. Added to that implants, modules and combat boosters and there's a heady mix of both ability, and potential loss. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
chatgris	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:05:00 - [188] Originally by: Erica 'cowpig'Lafehr Originally by: Sheriff Jones Originally by: Revan Starstrider Originally by: Sheriff Jones I just have to say; for a bunch of people advocating risk vs reward, the antipathy towards skillpoint loss when death occurs, is a bit ironic Considering pvp ships go pop alot more often than ships flown in pve, I'd say we have a good argument. Still, you can't deny the irony /This. The irony is so thick it can be cut with a knife. I appreciate that I am not the only one to notice that the biggest whiners in the game are the 'leet' pvp'ers. Like a bunch of old ladies to be exact. STFU and play the game The irony gets thicker if these are the same people that say that skill points really don't matter, all noobs should head out day one and fight like real men!
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:07:00 - [189] Edited by: Cailais on 07/02/2009 22:07:41 Originally by: Shadowsword Now, let's suppose it end up like that, that you lose a signifiant amont of SP each time you go poof. Congratualtion, you are now THE primary, before even Marauder Pilots, because you can be hurt. Do you really think you're going to enjoy yourself much? Good news for the Marauder pilots I guess. as for enjoyment - well that depends on what you regard as fun? If you dont like losing anything of worth then by all means jump in a T1 frigate and fly into FW. Personally I love high risks from time to time. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:13:00 - [190] Originally by: Dau Imperius Whoo hoo. If thiis true then I say, adapt or die you PvPers. Myself, I'll be happily usiig mine in high sec space. Until you get suicided in empire.
Sophia Truthspeaker THE INTERNET.	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:14:00 - [191] The way I am thinking of them now is, that you got a skill in your normal skills that allows you to use the module. If you loose a t3 ships you loose sp from a skill in those module skills. If that holds true I'd like to see some pretty high ranks in those skills. To compensate let the skills start with 10 sp for lvl 1. Anyone got a calculation how long a Rank 10 skill would take if you start with 10 and want to go to three, four and five? That would put a bit of risk into pvp, make it not impossible to catch up again after loosing a ship and lets you specialze more than now to keep in the smallish ships of a single race. Pretty sweet idea, I'd say.
Akor Flandres	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:19:00 - [192] ARE ALL THE PEOPLE WHINGING THE SAME PEOPLE WHO SHOUT DOWN CAREBEARS BECAUSE EVE IS A GAME WHERE YOU REALLY CAN LOSE SOMETHING SO GET BACK TO WOW? ITS FUNNY SEEING YOU ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FENCE FOR A CHANGE. CAP ATTACK!
Gunnanmon Gallente UNITED STAR SYNDICATE	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:19:00 - [193] Originally by: Gemmell If it turns out that this mechanic or any other is not working out based on that feedback then we will change it or remove it. o.m.g. How many people will give positive feedback about this "feature". What a bunch of imbeciles.
Akor Flandres	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:23:00 - [194] Originally by: Gunnanmon Originally by: Gemmell If it turns out that this mechanic or any other is not working out based on that feedback then we will change it or remove it. o.m.g. How many people will give positive feedback about this "feature". What a bunch of imbeciles. You dont even KNOW how it works yet, so stfu.
Gunnanmon Gallente UNITED STAR SYNDICATE	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:24:00 - [195] Originally by: Akor Flandres Originally by: Gunnanmon Originally by: Gemmell If it turns out that this mechanic or any other is not working out based on that feedback then we will change it or remove it. o.m.g. How many people will give positive feedback about this "feature". What a bunch of imbeciles. You dont even KNOW how it works yet, so stfu. All we have is what was said on the broadcast. stfu
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:25:00 - [196] This whole 'ship skill point gain' thing will probably end up being horribly broken for one reason or another. If ships gain SP individually once they're assembled over time, then people are going to be assembling them and just letting them 'cook' in their hangar until they're good. If they need to kill other ships in order to improve, people are going to farm alts in cruisers or whatever in order to 'level up' their ships. Insurance will make this almost painless. If ships need to be occupied by a pod in order to gain SP over time then I see everyone making T3 SP farming alts so that they can again 'cook' their ships for a while on alts in order to get them ready for use, or to sell them as 'improved' ships on contract for ridiculous sums of ISK. Any way you slice it, the system can be gamed and exploited. I doubt we'll see an exploit proof system that is worthwhile. If something is worth doing, it's worth exploiting. And Pattern brings up some very good points: what happens when the ship dies at a POS, or you disassemble it? How are we even going to test this stuff fully on SISI? If T3 has so many risks, just how good are these ships going to be in order to offset the added risk? They'd have to practically be able to take on a fleet of fifty for as much risk as they pose to pilots. Maybe they have some crazy special ability like they're unjammable and they're immune to cap warfare... (one could only wish).
Leaving Eve	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:25:00 - [197] Edited by: Leaving Eve on 07/02/2009 22:25:50 If you lose skill points when you lose a ship, then I'm leaving eve.
ebonyivory	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:26:00 - [198] Originally by: Akor Flandres ARE ALL THE PEOPLE WHINGING THE SAME PEOPLE WHO SHOUT DOWN CAREBEARS BECAUSE EVE IS A GAME WHERE YOU REALLY CAN LOSE SOMETHING SO GET BACK TO WOW? ITS FUNNY SEEING YOU ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FENCE FOR A CHANGE. CAP ATTACK! idiot >.> carebears have 0% risk all the time pvpers expect to lose ships when they undock...however if they are rich they also expect to be able to buy a ship and be fighting again asap....(one of the benifits of being rich) but instead theyl spend weeks at a time training because they lost a ship do you have any idea how easy it is to get blobbed these days? since 80% of pvp is blob based your pretty much screwed in a fleet fight since you will always be primaried
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:26:00 - [199] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 07/02/2009 22:21:15 Originally by: Dau Imperius Whoo hoo. If thiis true then I say, adapt or die you PvPers. Myself, I'll be happily usiig mine in high sec space. Until you get suicided in empire. I personally would just do it with like 4-5 BS'es only because the tears and crying from a high sec bear would be so awesome that it will be worth it. Ayup. Look me up btw if and when you want some help with this, LOL.
Gunnanmon Gallente UNITED STAR SYNDICATE	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:28:00 - [200] Originally by: Leaving Eve Edited by: Leaving Eve on 07/02/2009 22:25:50 If you lose skill points when you lose a ship, then I'm leaving eve. Well, since you're leaving eve either way it doesnt really matter either way.
Akor Flandres	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:31:00 - [201] Originally by: ebonyivory Originally by: Akor Flandres ARE ALL THE PEOPLE WHINGING THE SAME PEOPLE WHO SHOUT DOWN CAREBEARS BECAUSE EVE IS A GAME WHERE YOU REALLY CAN LOSE SOMETHING SO GET BACK TO WOW? ITS FUNNY SEEING YOU ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FENCE FOR A CHANGE. CAP ATTACK! idiot >.> carebears have 0% risk all the time pvpers expect to lose ships when they undock...however if they are rich they also expect to be able to buy a ship and be fighting again asap....(one of the benifits of being rich) but instead theyl spend weeks at a time training because they lost a ship do you have any idea how easy it is to get blobbed these days? since 80% of pvp is blob based your pretty much screwed in a fleet fight since you will always be primaried Honestly, you are the idiot. You don't even know how this is going to work, whether these skills will train for your ship alone along side your normal skills or not. As ever, you are all making your own wild assumptions based on a couple of sentences you probably didn't even listen to yourself.
Soporo Caldari The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:33:00 - [202] Gah! All I know is: If there is the potential for me to LOSE SKILLPOINTS if I fly and die in a certain ship (even just screwing around), then screw that. Certainly screw it x10 for pvp. Skilling is the biggest, sickest, most long lasting and unavoidable grind in the game. Why tf would I want to prolong that? Even a little bit?
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:36:00 - [203] Originally by: Cailais Originally by: Amerilia Originally by: Amerilia It was in EON, I think, that they stated that the T3 ships advance on their own. So the SP we lose there, wont be ours, its the SP of the ship I think. If the Ship explodes, its just logical that it loses its advancement, since it does NOT exist at all. And if I am right, PVPers can just buy "leveled" T3 Ships from Carebears. This would be interesting if true - rather like PE'd BPCs. C. "SP lost on repackaging". No market sale. Contact: "T3 ship with 1 million sp" will be the next contract scam?
Kyra Felann Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:36:00 - [204] Interesting.
ArmyOfMe 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:39:00 - [205] /me sits back and waits for darkfall to come out
Ben Derindar Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:42:00 - [206] If the result of this concept is that T3 ships remain a fairly rare sight, then it's a good thing. What's the point of adding new content if it simply deprecates the old content in every way? /Ben
Benedic The Aftermath	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:44:00 - [207] Prenerfed content? feigns disbelief
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:51:00 - [208] Originally by: Benedic Prenerfed content? feigns disbelief Well, its only nerfed if you die. C.
Tyrrax Thorrk Amarr Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:59:00 - [209] hell will freeze over before CCP makes the huge mistake of releasing T3 without removing the loss of skillpoints part frankly whoever came up with that idea should crawl back into his/her cave and stay away from design and balance forever
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:02:00 - [210] The solution is simple: fire whoever thought of this stupid idea, and forget it ever happened. The only content needed in this dev blog is "haha, just kidding". No matter which case it is, the idea is just terrible. If it's SP loss from your character, T3 is dead. Ships die, and usually die fast, especially cruisers. Nobody is going to train level IV in a skill when they're going to lose that SP faster than they can train it. Not only that, but it breaks a basic rule of EVE: assets can be lost, SP can not (who ever fails to update a clone?). If it's special SP trained by the ship in addition to your normal SP, it will be massively exploited and broken. If it's by time, people will park a dozen T3 ships in their hangar for a month. If it's combat experience, they'll farm cheap kills with an alt. Instead of a cool concept of "if you're good enough to keep a ship intact through lots of battles, you get better with it", it will just be a competition to see who can exploit the loopholes most efficiently. Either way, just kill the idea now, while most people haven't heard of it.

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