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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
Burning Horizons
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Posted - 2009.02.08 07:18:00 -
[331]
 Originally by: Trind2222
Edited by: Trind2222 on 08/02/2009 06:58:25
Originally by: Mecinia Lua
Originally by: Trind2222
Edited by: Trind2222 on 08/02/2009 05:45:13
Hope the T3 ahips will be like illegal goods it is risk to take it to empire 
You will not lose any thing else sp then t3 ships skill tree as I understand?
I see that as the problem really. It means your essentially trapped in that ship. Much like a Mothership or Titan pilot, but your only in a cruiser.
I don't see many folks going to want to lose skills just to switch ships, and heaven help you if you have to leave the ship to change out the configuration.
In essence seems like a hair brained idea. Sadly though CCP has not really impressed much in the last few expansions.
I see you are new to game find some npc drug and take it around empire use a shutle find out what im am taking about.
Auto pilot ofc.
I didn't fall for that 4 years ago when I started playing. |
Isil Rahsen
IsilZheHa Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.02.08 07:23:00 -
[332]
Originally by: Mecinia Lua
Originally by: Isil Rahsen
Edited by: Isil Rahsen on 08/02/2009 06:58:37
Originally by: Mecinia Lua
Originally by: Mecinia Lua
I see that as the problem really. It means your essentially trapped in that ship. Much like a Mothership or Titan pilot, but your only in a cruiser.
I don't see many folks going to want to lose skills just to switch ships, and heaven help you if you have to leave the ship to change out the configuration.
In essence seems like a hair brained idea. Sadly though CCP has not really impressed much in the last few expansions.
That's another problem which will hamper their use. Many folks in 0.0 use JC especially to go to empire to get skillbooks and such.
If the ship impairs that it'll be just like a prison that impedes growth.
Did you bother to engage your brain when you typed this? Where does it say you lose skillpoints for leaving the ship. All i've seen indicates SP loss upon destruction of ship via explosion or repackaging.
Of course I did.
It makes no sense you would lose skills on the destruction of the ship and then not lose skills when you weren't in the ship.
The whole idea is a bad one.
So your another person who just jumps on the lets guess at this stuff with no knowledge of what you speak like the rest of the whines in this thread. Why don't you wait until it hits the test server and get your sh*t straight before spouting off about things you have no information on? |
Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
Burning Horizons
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Posted - 2009.02.08 07:26:00 -
[333]
Originally by: Isil Rahsen
Originally by: Mecinia Lua
Of course I did.
It makes no sense you would lose skills on the destruction of the ship and then not lose skills when you weren't in the ship.
The whole idea is a bad one.
So your another person who just jumps on the lets guess at this stuff with no knowledge of what you speak like the rest of the whines in this thread. Why don't you wait until it hits the test server and get your sh*t straight before spouting off about things you have no information on?
Yep just like you, since you have no knowledge of what your talking about.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.02.08 07:27:00 -
[334]
I bet that dev is kicking himself in the ass right now :P |
Isil Rahsen
IsilZheHa Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.02.08 07:29:00 -
[335]
Edited by: Isil Rahsen on 08/02/2009 07:32:11
Originally by: Mecinia Lua
Originally by: Isil Rahsen
Originally by: Mecinia Lua
Of course I did.
It makes no sense you would lose skills on the destruction of the ship and then not lose skills when you weren't in the ship.
The whole idea is a bad one.
So your another person who just jumps on the lets guess at this stuff with no knowledge of what you speak like the rest of the whines in this thread. Why don't you wait until it hits the test server and get your sh*t straight before spouting off about things you have no information on?
Yep just like you, since you have no knowledge of what your talking about.
But unlike you I'm not filling the thread with negative conjecture based around some comments made on the Alliance Tourny guest panel. I've opted for a wait and see approach without the whines about T3 sucking or being useless.
Originally by: Mothermoon
I bet that dev is kicking himself in the ass right now :P
You know it he is, lol. He gave birth to a baby threadnaught.
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ghost st
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Posted - 2009.02.08 07:35:00 -
[336]
Ill be waiting to hear about this from the blog. I kinda like the idea of losing skills for losing ships, its an incentive to be better. So you wouldnt be seeing these in blobs, and they would have a more tactical or specialized use.
At least thats what im hoping for, and what i think ccp is going for aswell.
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Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.02.08 07:37:00 -
[337]
I'm open to the idea of losing t3 ship skills with ship destruction.
It puts fear into people. Fear forces accountability. The smart will adapt and prosper, the weak shall perish. After all, t3 stuff is an addition to the game - an optional alternative. Nobody is forced to use it. Unlike t2, it should not become mandatory.
Tho I don't have much faith in the current CCP design team people to make good decisions, there's not enough info to criticize anything. Frankly, I'd feel a lot better if current game designers were rotated or moved to some other tasks. They ****ed up enough already |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
|
Posted - 2009.02.08 07:43:00 -
[338]
Originally by: Ephemeron
I'm open to the idea of losing t3 ship skills with ship destruction.
It puts fear into people. Fear forces accountability. The smart will adapt and prosper, the weak shall perish. After all, t3 stuff is an addition to the game - an optional alternative. Nobody is forced to use it. Unlike t2, it should not become mandatory.
Tho I don't have much faith in the current CCP design team people to make good decisions, there's not enough info to criticize anything. Frankly, I'd feel a lot better if current game designers were rotated or moved to some other tasks. They ****ed up enough already
here is the issue I see though.
he then said something about them being in the alliance tourny. He said "they will have the capabilities of a cruiser saized vessal so I think we might see them"
wtf? they better be ****ing PIMP if you lose skill points apoon death on top of price and how hard it will be to find parts.
I'm expecting one with a smart pilot (not in web range and such) to solo 2 tech 1 battleships. If not then **** it, I'll fly a stabber into wormhole space.
HOwever if one is AS powerful to go toe to toe with a T2 battleship, then I will fly one, as they will be able to enter wormhole space without taking up as much mass as a battleship. thus you get more through. |
Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.02.08 07:57:00 -
[339]
Quote:
I'm expecting one with a smart pilot (not in web range and such) to solo 2 tech 1 battleships. If not then **** it, I'll fly a stabber into wormhole space.
That might have been possible if CCP didn't take speed out of equation. It's hard to believe that so many people in positions of power fail to realize that speed is one of fundamental parts of combat. Trying to pretend that speed should not matter is setting yourself up for failure. They dragged us all down with them. When will we get game designer with common sense?
sorry for ranting, it just makes me angry to see such blatant incompetence.
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Lady Ione
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Posted - 2009.02.08 08:08:00 -
[340]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Tech 3 ships and the subsystem skill loss mechanic will be detailed by Nozh in his blog which is due out soon(TM). As with everything, things always change before release and when Apocrypha arrives on sisi next week, we can and will be making changes based on feedback there. If it turns out that this mechanic or any other is not working out based on that feedback then we will change it or remove it.
Fixed it for you Chronotis
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.02.08 08:23:00 -
[341]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Quote:
I'm expecting one with a smart pilot (not in web range and such) to solo 2 tech 1 battleships. If not then **** it, I'll fly a stabber into wormhole space.
That might have been possible if CCP didn't take speed out of equation. It's hard to believe that so many people in positions of power fail to realize that speed is one of fundamental parts of combat. Trying to pretend that speed should not matter is setting yourself up for failure. They dragged us all down with them. When will we get game designer with common sense?
sorry for ranting, it just makes me angry to see such blatant incompetence.
when did that take speed out? have you been watching the allaince tourny? Have you actually tried PvPing in TQ?
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.02.08 08:44:00 -
[342]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Quote:
I'm expecting one with a smart pilot (not in web range and such) to solo 2 tech 1 battleships. If not then **** it, I'll fly a stabber into wormhole space.
That might have been possible if CCP didn't take speed out of equation. It's hard to believe that so many people in positions of power fail to realize that speed is one of fundamental parts of combat. Trying to pretend that speed should not matter is setting yourself up for failure. They dragged us all down with them. When will we get game designer with common sense?
sorry for ranting, it just makes me angry to see such blatant incompetence.
Nerfing speed wasn't a mistake. The only real problem has been the fallout inflicted on ships that never took advantage of the broken gameplay and in doing so broke all sorts of other balance.
...........***anyway*** (where is that dead horse gif?) T3 probably won't be worth the time and effort in the long run. We won't see something that can significantly out perform existing ships, particularly not current battleships. I guess I'm jaded, but so far CCP has a pretty consistent track record for delivering disappointing mediocre ships. |
Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.02.08 09:06:00 -
[343]
Edited by: Ephemeron on 08/02/2009 09:09:29
Originally by: MotherMoon
when did that take speed out? have you been watching the allaince tourny? Have you actually tried PvPing in TQ?
I pvp enough on TQ to notice that nanohacs and speed fits have been nearly wiped out.
You'd have to be blind not to notice ships going twice as slow. There are no more setups that increase speed effectively. Speed is no longer a thing for consideration. There's your standard MWD or AB, maybe a couple nanofibers - but there's no variety in setups, it's pointless to try boost speed more at expensive of tank, gank, tackle, EW. Amount of possible ship tactics and ship setups have been reduced. The fun factor in PvP reduced. The edge blunted
Quote:
I guess I'm jaded, but so far CCP has a pretty consistent track record for delivering disappointing mediocre ships.
If CCP didn't have a track record of taking existing cool ships and turning them into disapponting mediocre ships, I wouldn't be as jaded. |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.02.08 09:13:00 -
[344]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Edited by: Ephemeron on 08/02/2009 09:09:29
Originally by: MotherMoon
when did that take speed out? have you been watching the allaince tourny? Have you actually tried PvPing in TQ?
I pvp enough on TQ to notice that nanohacs and speed fits have been nearly wiped out.
You'd have to be blind not to notice ships going twice as slow. There are no more setups that increase speed effectively. Speed is no longer a thing for consideration. There's your standard MWD or AB, maybe a couple nanofibers - but there's no variety in setups, it's pointless to try boost speed more at expensive of tank, gank, tackle, EW. Amount of possible ship tactics and ship setups have been reduced. The fun factor in PvP reduced. The edge blunted
Quote:
I guess I'm jaded, but so far CCP has a pretty consistent track record for delivering disappointing mediocre ships.
If CCP didn't have a track record of taking existing cool ships and turning them into disapponting mediocre ships, I wouldn't be as jaded.
if all ships go half as slow then there is no different in PvP now then there was before.
think before you post. |
Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2009.02.08 09:19:00 -
[345]
so if this will be that ship have its own sp. character can train only 1 at time And skills to train will be cruiser 5 enginering 5 mechanic 5 weapon upgrades 5 leadership 5 and ship will use charisma primery + memory secondery. Well it will cut much farmers ;] |
Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
Burning Horizons
|
Posted - 2009.02.08 09:29:00 -
[346]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Ephemeron
Quote:
I'm expecting one with a smart pilot (not in web range and such) to solo 2 tech 1 battleships. If not then **** it, I'll fly a stabber into wormhole space.
That might have been possible if CCP didn't take speed out of equation. It's hard to believe that so many people in positions of power fail to realize that speed is one of fundamental parts of combat. Trying to pretend that speed should not matter is setting yourself up for failure. They dragged us all down with them. When will we get game designer with common sense?
sorry for ranting, it just makes me angry to see such blatant incompetence.
Nerfing speed wasn't a mistake. The only real problem has been the fallout inflicted on ships that never took advantage of the broken gameplay and in doing so broke all sorts of other balance.
...........***anyway*** (where is that dead horse gif?) T3 probably won't be worth the time and effort in the long run. We won't see something that can significantly out perform existing ships, particularly not current battleships. I guess I'm jaded, but so far CCP has a pretty consistent track record for delivering disappointing mediocre ships.
That's the problem, the last few expansions have been real disappointments. Problems pointed out with them haven't been fixed for the most part even up til now.
Thus as history shows us if we wait til its in game to complain it's pretty much to late. Basically its to late usually by the time it hits singularity. I don't recall many major changes coming out of singularity. |
Isil Rahsen
IsilZheHa Enterprises
|
Posted - 2009.02.08 10:05:00 -
[347]
Originally by: Mecinia Lua
That's the problem, the last few expansions have been real disappointments. Problems pointed out with them haven't been fixed for the most part even up til now.
This is true, QR royally screwed overall balance on a lot of fits and tactics in order to bend over the nano fits.
Quote:
Thus as history shows us if we wait til its in game to complain it's pretty much to late. Basically its to late usually by the time it hits singularity. I don't recall many major changes coming out of singularity.
This I still disagree with. I don't see why you want to complain about something when all we know is that you'll lose T3 Subsystem SP when the ship blows up, and that according to EON the ships learn, and that learning can be lost on repackaging. Why don't all you whiners wait until you actually get the info from the devblog and the ships hitting SiSi to complain because I guarantee you that *****ing right now will do absolutely nothing to change T3. Especially since once things hit SiSi they are set in stone. /sarcasm
(Which is less than 48 hours away) |
Tippia
Raddick Explorations
BlackWater.
|
Posted - 2009.02.08 10:09:00 -
[348]
The main problem here, and the one that is causing all the angst, is that we don't know what the Devs mean by "Skills" and "SP".
Skills (and SP) have three key functions:- They give you access to equipment.
- They provide bonuses to said equipment.
- They give access to other skills.
I think the reason so many get upset with the idea of losing SP on ship death is because they mainly connect SP with functions #1 and #3. From this perspective, SP loss on death is horribly stupid: lose the ship ⇒ lose the skill ⇒ lose the ability to use (parts of) the ship to begin with. Ship death (something that should be very very common) then becomes the equipvalent of repeated clone death, with none of the protection (something that effectively doesn't exist unless alcohol is involved).
More likely, though, what the devs are talking about is strictly function #2, and echoes the often-made suggestion about "trainable crews": you, as a character, can always use the equipment, but some or all of the bonuses — and only the bonuses — are tied to the ship's SP pool. In other words, they'd decouple the "use at all" skills from the "use well" skills, and the latter aren't really skills at all…
Right now, these two are one and the same: to use a HAC at all, you need Cruiser V and HAC I; to use well you still need the same skills: Cruiser V and HAC [insert training time pain threshhold here]. With T3, it may rather be a matter of needing Fancypants Ship I + Rigging V to use at all and Fancypants Engineering III to use well, and if you choose to, you can buy Fancypants Engineering III right off the market.
Or, put another way, the ship bonuses will essentially be a form of (semi)permanent boosters: if you have the skills to use them, then you can always use them. However, those boosters can be used up (by exploding or being repackaged), at which point you need to make new ones yourself or buy some pre-made ones off the market. This should allow the SP requirements to be fairly low, but the ISK/production cost of good bonses high (again, see boosters for comparison).
These bonues are, effectively, just a new thing for industrialists to cultivate and harvest, and sell off to the market — no different (conceptually, if not production-wise) than building T1 or T2 or farming for meta-[whatever] level modules.
</ramble>
tl;dr version:
I think (and only think — I have nothing to back that belief up) the main upset here is the fact that the devs are calling these things "Skills" and "SP", which gives the wrong associations. They should rather be called "Bonus abilities" and "bonus XP" or some such, to lead our thoughts away from the usual image of something that provides Equipment Access + Equipment Bonus + Skill Access. |
Isil Rahsen
IsilZheHa Enterprises
|
Posted - 2009.02.08 10:16:00 -
[349]
Yes I also think that your on the right track with this train of thought. What gets on my nerves are all the people in this thread that insist on judging T3 before they even know anything instead of offering possible alternatives to it just sucking. |
Kendrix Arathan
Minmatar
N00bs With Guns
|
Posted - 2009.02.08 10:20:00 -
[350]
Originally by: MotherMoon
I bet that dev is kicking himself in the ass right now :P
I think the Dev's are probably laughing at the people in this thread running panicked in the streets, eating each other and screaming "the sky is falling"...
Pretty much nothing posted in this thread is even remotely close to what little the Dev's said on EVETV..
One person makes a baseless and idiotic assumption based on nothing but their own insanity, and some one else comes in reads it, parrots it as fact and nerd-rages about it, gathering others as they go, like a giant snowball of fail and stupidity.
This thread is the closest I've seen to the WOW forums on EVE, congrats and GTFO and go crap up some other game.
Originally by: StevieSG
Verone looks like data from star trek. that is all.
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Pliauga
Gallente
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2009.02.08 10:22:00 -
[351]
This is most peculiar. Waiting for that blog
But tbh I think this entire thread is just a s**t-storm over nothing.
New expansion = new gaming mechanics. And in case you guys didn't notice eve is a damn good game, so I think the devs know what they are doing.
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"Skynet" is my internet provider, should I be worried? |
Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2009.02.08 10:23:00 -
[352]
Originally by: MotherMoon
if all ships go half as slow, then there is no different in PvP now then there was before.
but webs have been nerfed meaning speed is even more important.
And then you factor in how an AB tanks missile better than a MWD.
Almost all turrets took a tracking hit to scale down with speed changes.
All speed changes we're made to make speed mean more, an interceptor is now harder to hit and can catch targets more easily than before.
the vaga is now much more useful.
think before you post.
That kind of logic is what seems to create so much trouble in the world. From government to financial sectors, and even down to lowly game design. Every statement you made is false, but I guess it's not a lie if you really believe it. I'm tired of trying to argue same thing. I could try, but if you believe that, I doubt I can use logic to convince you otherwise.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
|
Posted - 2009.02.08 10:24:00 -
[353]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Originally by: MotherMoon
if all ships go half as slow, then there is no different in PvP now then there was before.
but webs have been nerfed meaning speed is even more important.
And then you factor in how an AB tanks missile better than a MWD.
Almost all turrets took a tracking hit to scale down with speed changes.
All speed changes we're made to make speed mean more, an interceptor is now harder to hit and can catch targets more easily than before.
the vaga is now much more useful.
think before you post.
That kind of logic is what seems to create so much trouble in the world. From government to financial sectors, and even down to lowly game design. Every statement you made is false, but I guess it's not a lie if you really believe it. I'm tired of trying to argue same thing. I could try, but if you believe that, I doubt I can use logic to convince you otherwise.
so in other words you don't like math.
That's cool, not all of us have an IQ high enough to use logic.
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Polinus
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.08 10:35:00 -
[354]
Originally by: Mecinia Lua
That's the problem, the last few expansions have been real disappointments. Problems pointed out with them haven't been fixed for the most part even up til now.
Thus as history shows us if we wait til its in game to complain it's pretty much to late. Basically its to late usually by the time it hits singularity. I don't recall many major changes coming out of singularity.
CCp need to understand that their only hope is bring either Tomb or Tux back to game design at least for a week to explain the current ones what game design and game balance is.
|
DeadDuck
Amarr
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.02.08 10:36:00 -
[355]
So if I understand correctly you will have some base stats for a specific configuration (one of the hundreds possible).
Lets think of a example: With acceleration control level 5 and using a MWD the ship will reach 1800 m/s. Lets imagine that the module combination gives a bonus to speed. With time (?) my ship will ship start be faster due to the fact that the pilot is learning how to fly that specific combination until a limit that I managed to squeeze all the potential bonus from that combo.
If the ship gets blown away or dismantled (?) I loose all the accumulated experience flying that combo. But my character will still have "acceleration control level 5" in the skill tree. I didn't loose any SP but I lost experience flying that specific combo.
That makes sense IF:
I assemble a similar combo again I will still have the experience gained from the 1st ship. The ship is the same, so the pilot already knows the potential of that module combo.
If I assemble a different combination of modules the experience will be 0 so I will have to gain experience again.
Don'T know if I sum it right.
________________
God is my Wingman |
Pliauga
Gallente
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2009.02.08 10:45:00 -
[356]
Edited by: Pliauga on 08/02/2009 10:46:16
Originally by: DeadDuck
So if I understand correctly you will have some base stats for a specific configuration (one of the hundreds possible).
Lets think of a example: With acceleration control level 5 and using a MWD the ship will reach 1800 m/s. Lets imagine that the module combination gives a bonus to speed. With time (?) my ship will ship start be faster due to the fact that the pilot is learning how to fly that specific combination until a limit that I managed to squeeze all the potential bonus from that combo.
If the ship gets blown away or dismantled (?) I loose all the accumulated experience flying that combo. But my character will still have "acceleration control level 5" in the skill tree. I didn't loose any SP but I lost experience flying that specific combo.
That makes sense IF:
I assemble a similar combo again I will still have the experience gained from the 1st ship. The ship is the same, so the pilot already knows the potential of that module combo.
If I assemble a different combination of modules the experience will be 0 so I will have to gain experience again.
Don'T know if I sum it right.
That would actually make sense. But I still say we should wait for the blog. It should cut out a lot of speculation.
- spelling
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"Skynet" is my internet provider, should I be worried? |
Lord WarATron
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
KenZoku
|
Posted - 2009.02.08 11:01:00 -
[357]
Too much speculation at the moment. Wait for the blog or sisi update. For all we know, Ship SP might take like a hour, in which case its a non issue.
What some people think, is that ship SP means you cannot train up your normal SP skills. This may or may not be the case. Others think it is going to turn flying t3 ships into traditional MMO style grinding to level up.
Lets just wait for the actual release first |
Xenalee
|
Posted - 2009.02.08 11:02:00 -
[358]
T3 ships are gonna rock Level 3's like nobody's business, much like Mauraders do for Level IV's. And virtually nothing else.
FFS, PVP'ers are already penalized in SP; how many do you know flying around with +5's in their skull? I'll fly Tech 1 crap (like I usually do anyhow) and keep skilling for something useful. Not the same damn ship ad infinatum. |
Dristra
Amarr
Idle Haven
|
Posted - 2009.02.08 11:05:00 -
[359]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Others think it is going to turn flying t3 ships into traditional MMO style grinding to level up.
I guess this |
Jalif
Black Sinisters
Freedom of Elbas
|
Posted - 2009.02.08 11:06:00 -
[360]
Only thing I see happening:
Skillpointloss or not
It will give a lot of time/isk to fly just in 1 of those ships.
Which tells me only 1 more thing:
MORE SHIPS JUST TO KILL 1 ****ING SHIP! = BLOBING
I prefere that there will be more player skill involved to every single ship then instead just t3 which will get blobbed while pvp-ing. Its just going to be another carebare ship where jsut a handfull of people will use it in pvp. And not to forget it will be probably be pre-nerfed so they are useless like ****. |
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