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Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:02:00 - [211] Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk hell will freeze over before CCP makes the huge mistake of releasing T3 without removing the loss of skillpoints part frankly whoever came up with that idea should crawl back into his/her cave and stay away from design and balance forever On that basis I think we can assume its a dead cert then . C.
Nova Fox Gallente Novafox Shipyards	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:03:00 - [212] Edited by: Nova Fox on 07/02/2009 23:04:37 I hope its just the ship can gain experince and gets stronger over time. And if you lose the ship the related gained 'experince' gets lost. If its acutal player skills, then bohoo Im boycotting T3 as well.
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:12:00 - [213] Im stunned so many can't handle the thought of losing SPs. What happened to the fans of EVE - a dark and gritty universe? All those 'gb2wow' posts seem so uselessly pathetic in the face of these comments. Clearly ISK has become so readily available over the past few years that losing that is no biggy - but a few skill points and the end is nigh! Maybe we should adopt the WOW model and ships just respawn in your hangar when you get blown up? C.
Dr Ming Mindworks	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:13:00 - [214] Originally by: Merin Ryskin The solution is simple: fire whoever thought of this stupid idea, and forget it ever happened. The only content needed in this dev blog is "haha, just kidding". No matter which case it is, the idea is just terrible. If it's SP loss from your character, T3 is dead. Ships die, and usually die fast, especially cruisers. Nobody is going to train level IV in a skill when they're going to lose that SP faster than they can train it. Not only that, but it breaks a basic rule of EVE: assets can be lost, SP can not (who ever fails to update a clone?). If it's special SP trained by the ship in addition to your normal SP, it will be massively exploited and broken. If it's by time, people will park a dozen T3 ships in their hangar for a month. If it's combat experience, they'll farm cheap kills with an alt. Instead of a cool concept of "if you're good enough to keep a ship intact through lots of battles, you get better with it", it will just be a competition to see who can exploit the loopholes most efficiently. Either way, just kill the idea now, while most people haven't heard of it. QFT System is either stupid and nobody will use it, or will be so easily exploitable that they might as well just do away with the system and just hand out the end result as the baseline. Nozh has their work cut out from them with this blog. Personally, I'm expecting Nozh to get Zuluparked.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:14:00 - [215] What would the role-play/story reason be for losing skillpoints for losing a ship. There better be a very good reason in why all of a sudden you lose skillpoints when the ships blows up. If that is what happens.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:16:00 - [216] Originally by: Nova Fox Edited by: Nova Fox on 07/02/2009 23:04:37 I hope its just the ship can gain experince and gets stronger over time. And if you lose the ship the related gained 'experince' gets lost. This is what it sounded like from when they talked about "learning ships." So I think this is just some dumb pubbie overreaction.
Dreamwalker	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:17:00 - [217] I like this idea of losing SP with the new T3. Not me but there are pilots that have their skills trained up and are looking for something, now they will always be looking for something as the younger chars start to catch up to them. Now if you are a younger pilot and don't have your skills in order and want to fly it so be it but I think it would be like those BS pilots that can't fit T2 guns or those cap pilots that can't fit capital armor. If you are crying over this then its not your ship type. And I still like the Black Ops.
Kiotsu Adler	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:21:00 - [218] Originally by: Cailais What happened to the fans of EVE - a dark and gritty universe? All those 'gb2wow' posts seem so uselessly pathetic in the face of these comments. Clearly ISK has become so readily available over the past few years that losing that is no biggy - but a few skill points and the end is nigh! Total different league. Think about this: what you get with your subscription is the ability to advance your char (and play, off course), so you're trading real money for losing ships. How far could we take this idea... permadeath maybe? All has to have a limit and everyone has one, even hardcore players. I'm not strictlly against the idea, just want to see how is gonna be implemented, but if it's tied to main SP system seems pretty much broken. And otherwise seems to hard to not be exploitable in someway. Well just let's wait until blog (if it ever comes).
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:23:00 - [219] Originally by: Dreamwalker I like this idea of losing SP with the new T3. Not me but there are pilots that have their skills trained up and are looking for something, now they will always be looking for something as the younger chars start to catch up to them. Now if you are a younger pilot and don't have your skills in order and want to fly it so be it but I think it would be like those BS pilots that can't fit T2 guns or those cap pilots that can't fit capital armor. If you are crying over this then its not your ship type. And I still like the Black Ops. That's just stupid. Even assuming you have absolute max skills for an entire race, which is the better use of your time: Training T3 skills that you are going to lose faster than you can train them past III. OR Training another race. The number of players who already have absolute maximum skills in everything they want to train is so absurdly tiny that words do not exist to describe how absolutely ****ing stupid it would be to limit T3 to those players. If CCP is going to make T3 just a toy for .000000001% of the players, then they need to just scrap the entire concept now. I'd rather have no expansion at all than something so poorly designed. -----------
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:23:00 - [220] Originally by: Pottsey What would the role-play/story reason be for losing skillpoints for losing a ship. There better be a very good reason in why all of a sudden you lose skillpoints when the ships blows up. If that is what happens. Im thinking it could be something along the lines of Hamilton's 'The Reality Disfucntion' where pilot and Voidhawk shared a symbiotic link. Clearly once that link is broken that shared knowledge is lost. I imagine the depth to which a player chooses to link with his ship will be very optional - i.e that T3 ships will be fully pilotable without re affirming this link but, should you wish to do so, you can invest SPs into the ship itself. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:29:00 - [221] Originally by: Kiotsu Adler Originally by: Cailais What happened to the fans of EVE - a dark and gritty universe? All those 'gb2wow' posts seem so uselessly pathetic in the face of these comments. Clearly ISK has become so readily available over the past few years that losing that is no biggy - but a few skill points and the end is nigh! Total different league. Think about this: what you get with your subscription is the ability to advance your char (and play, off course), so you're trading real money for losing ships. How far could we take this idea... permadeath maybe? All has to have a limit and everyone has one, even hardcore players. I'm not strictlly against the idea, just want to see how is gonna be implemented, but if it's tied to main SP system seems pretty much broken. And otherwise seems to hard to not be exploitable in someway. Well just let's wait until blog (if it ever comes). You're always trading RL money when you lose a ship. If you subscribe and say spend 1 month ratting to buy a ship, and then lose that ship you've lost that investment in time. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Novacanne Caldari The Uniting of Eve Initiative	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:31:00 - [222] We are the pvpers and every new content placed in EVE must stand up to our specifications and standards, LOL CCP losing skill points thats for Carebears.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:33:00 - [223] Long story short, we have two posible extremes in which all of this hub-bub is sadly going to fall into. One is the "unexploitable but next to useless" extreme, where the drawbacks will far, FAR outweigh the benefits of flying T3, maybe with a few exceptions that will be so imbalanced they're very likely to get the nerfbat sooner rather than later. The other is the "so exploitable it becomes meaningless" extreme, where, well, the quote said it all. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Kytanos Termek Caldari Darkstorm Command Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:33:00 - [224] Edited by: Kytanos Termek on 07/02/2009 23:35:17 Ok. Everyone, Just listen to me real quick. I seriusly doubt CCP will make it any kind of Real SP loss. It will be like gaining experience for your ship. Picture the ship as an alternate account you made. It can train skills independent of your char, And when it dies. All It's SP is lost. While this makes it progressively risker to lose the ship in battle. It has 1 advantage over all other ships. It can actually learn and "skill up". While it may be tedious to do the same thing with t3 ship after t3 ship this encourages protecting the ship from harm. However if all you do is "cook" the ship to gain skill points. It's being no use to you, And odd's are you will still lose it eventually. The best thing you can do is ride the wave. If you lose it early on no biggy, If you lose an old ship you will feel it. This will give people an emotion attachment to Their ship. Not just a class of ship but one specific vessel. That is one of the things eve really needs. It's a new feature. And if you complain about just consider this It gives nothing but advantages, No other ship grows more powerful over time. Not one. There is no negatives to this change. Would you prefer the ship to be static with it's base stat's? or grow and evolve into your special baby? You use it, You fight with it, You bleed for it and die with it. It's what this game needs. the "lucky" ones will keep their ship for quite awhile, And gain very high sp vessels. These vessels will become known throughout eve for their power, It's kind of like having a special ship for the corp. It's like a mascot. If i lose a tech 3 ship. I will be sad and maby a lil ****ed. But it's a game. I will get over it, Get a new one. And the (Insert ship name here) Mark 2 will fly out in the stars to seek revenge for the death of it's brother. Mrr?
Bidermaier Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:36:00 - [225] Its a really interesting idea. 1.It punish people that rely on farming game skills rather than getting better in the battlefield. 2. It makes the new ships a big deal in the battle. People use to say "only fly what you can afford to lose" when the real fun kicks off when you fly ships that you really can't afford to lose. This new mechanic pushes that idea. After 9 months I am trying to learn PVP and I cant afford to lose T2 ships. The same way there will be T2 ship pilots that aren't simply ready to pilot T3 ships.
bff Jill	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:39:00 - [226] Bugs and glitches can now cost you skill points awesome
Kytanos Termek Caldari Darkstorm Command Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:41:00 - [227] Edited by: Kytanos Termek on 07/02/2009 23:42:06 You may afford to lose tech 3 ships isk wise. But the ship experience loss is inevitable, This is a very good thing imho. As in said in my last post. This gives player attachment to their ships. Something I think eve needs, I am seeing far to many ships named (Random name X's raven). You have to fly it into battle. Otherwise it's not doing you any good. Might as well fly it. Whats the point of having a superior ship if you never use it, If you have a advantage. It is better to use it frequently and to it's full advantage before you lose it than to use it sparingly and eventually end up with merely 4-5 real battles under the ships belt. It has not been much help to you. Why even bother going to tech 3 unless your going to commit to flying in it. I am alarming at all the people against this. It's nothing if not a positive change once you think about it. Why rally against an entirely new feature that gives no negative drawbacks. I can understand complaining about a nerf, But complaining because of something that increases the power or value of a ship you own is ridiculous.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:41:00 - [228] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 07/02/2009 23:42:14 Originally by: Kytanos Termek However if all you do is "cook" the ship to gain skill points. It's being no use to you, And odd's are you will still lose it eventually. Why settle for just one? Buy 50x copies of your favorite T3 ship, and "cook" 49 of them while you fly the 50th. You clearly don't understand the level of metagaming and loophole exploitation that most good PvPers will use to get every possible advantage. Quote: Would you prefer the ship to be static with it's base stat's? or grow and evolve into your special baby? You use it, You fight with it, You bleed for it and die with it. It's what this game needs. the "lucky" ones will keep their ship for quite awhile, And gain very high sp vessels. These vessels will become known throughout eve for their power, It's kind of like having a special ship for the corp. It's like a mascot. Which might be nice if ships didn't die so often. That might be cool with a capital, but on a cruiser hull that is likely to always be primaried because of its high cost and SP loss? Good luck keeping one alive long enough to care about it... Not that it will matter, since all that experience will be in the form of farming unfitted Bantams with my alt for 16 hours.
Kytanos Termek Caldari Darkstorm Command Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:43:00 - [229] Edited by: Kytanos Termek on 07/02/2009 23:44:52 Hmm they should implement something like that for capitals. That will give alliances real "flag ships" to rally behind. CCP i think we have a winner. As for the "Cooking" excuse. Your probably going to have to be actively in the ship for it to gain xp. Otherwise it's just too broken. I would say have it gain xp while your out in space, Online. You may decide to cook the ship in a t3 alt. But your paying 15 a month for that. So go right ahead. If you want to waste money cooking a t3 ship. If you are that dedicated, Go right ahead.
Coros Galactic Research Corp	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:44:00 - [230] Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk hell will freeze over before CCP makes the huge mistake of releasing T3 without removing the loss of skillpoints part frankly whoever came up with that idea should crawl back into his/her cave and stay away from design and balance forever agreed
Grath Telkin Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:46:00 - [231] Originally by: Merin Ryskin That's just stupid. Even assuming you have absolute max skills for an entire race, which is the better use of your time: Training T3 skills that you are going to lose faster than you can train them past III. OR Training another race. Stoping you right there, I would rather train T3, simply because I fly amarr, i've always flown them, and its all I want to fly. I own another account, pure galente. I've not, nor do i plan, to cross train either of them, even as one approaches 50 million sp. IF i had something else to train either amarr or galente respectively, those alts will train that, otherwise, when i feel they are maxed enough I will consolidate the accounts into one, for lack of caring about Minnie and Caldari ships. Originally by: Merin Ryskin The number of players who already have absolute maximum skills in everything they want to train is so absurdly tiny that words do not exist to describe how absolutely **ing stupid it would be to limit T3 to those players. Says you, can i see some statistical information supporting this argument? If your race specific in what you fly, capping out skills you "want to train" can be done fairly easy. Originally by:** Merin Ryskin If CCP is going to make T3 just a toy for .000000001% of the players, then they need to just scrap the entire concept now. I'd rather have no expansion at all than something so poorly designed. Well then, I for one, am glad you have jack **** to do with the expansions release. Also, in reference to the underlined bit, can you please show me your dev notes, or pms, detailing the exact design of the way things will be implemented so I too can be privy to the "poor design"? What? Speak up, I can't hear you. You say you don't know the exact design? Well damn, from your rant there at the end I had assumed you knew all about it and its "poor design". The fact is, you know the same as every one else, and for some reason, you, and people like you, grab it by the nose and run screaming about the falling sky even though your facts are so limited in scope that no sane person would ever follow your conclusions to the same end.
thelung187 Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:47:00 - [232] Not going to read through 8 pages to see if this has already been proposed, but if so, my apologies. The only way that SP loss due to ship loss can be balanced is to allow for SP bonus for ship kills. Example: if I kill your t3 ship, you lose some t3 sp, while I (or spread amongst myself and whoever else is on the killmail) get appropriate SP bonuses. So if you lose 800 sp for losing your ship, my buddy and I each get 400sp tacked onto ours (in addition to regular SP accumulation over time). Otherwise, really, what can we do with t3 that we can't with existing ships? Or put more simply... why bother? Without the aforementioned balancing mechanic (or some type of incentive beyond "oooh shiny new things"), this is potentially on the same level of sheer epic failure as the introduction of POS or existing sovereignty mechanics.
Kytanos Termek Caldari Darkstorm Command Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:47:00 - [233] Alot of people dont seem to understand yet that you DO NOT LOSE SKILL POINTS. to make it absolutely clear YOU DO NOT LOSE REAL SKILLPOINTS. You lose Ship experience! Which is effectively the ship training itself AT THE EXACT SAME TIME YOUR POD PILOT IS TRAINING HIS OWN SKILLS. Aka the ship has it's own skillpoints. Yours are completely and totally unaffected. sorry for the caps and rudeness. But i am trying to get the message out so the uninformed don't give CCP the wrong impression because of lack of knowledge.
Eliza Farcaster	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:48:00 - [234] Edited by: Eliza Farcaster on 07/02/2009 23:49:25 Actually I quite like this idea. Not many people will be brave enough to fly them, making them rare status symbol ships. I hope they are made virtually useless for missions and only viable for PVP, these T3 ships shouldnt be flying around highsec. These should be ships for the real hardcore PVPers. Keep them rare. You DONT HAVE to fly them! The only negative to this is that people who aren't man enough don't get any new ships! Oh, and I'm not going to fly them, but still like the idea. EDIT - They would be a joke for high-sec mission runnuners unless the missions are made unpredictable and have more webbers, scrammers etc. Being in high sec with +5 implants would be too much of an advantage.
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:48:00 - [235] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Kytanos Termek However if all you do is "cook" the ship to gain skill points. It's being no use to you, And odd's are you will still lose it eventually. Why settle for just one? Buy 50x copies of your favorite T3 ship, and "cook" 49 of them while you fly the 50th. You clearly don't understand the level of metagaming and loophole exploitation that most good PvPers will use to get every possible advantage. [ Thats assuming you can cook them - which isnt confirmed. It's frankly more likely you can only skill up one specific ship and its linked to one specific pilot. Drop that 'link' and the SP's invested die off (perhaps over time?). C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Kytanos Termek Caldari Darkstorm Command Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:51:00 - [236] And one last time to make it clear. to those who read every 3rd post. You do not ever, ever lose personal skill points. The ship has it's own skill points, That it loses if it's blown up. Think of it like having an alt that trains skills while you are also training skills at the exact same time. Mrr?
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:51:00 - [237] Originally by: Cailais Im stunned so many can't handle the thought of losing SPs. What happened to the fans of EVE - a dark and gritty universe? All those 'gb2wow' posts seem so uselessly pathetic in the face of these comments. Clearly ISK has become so readily available over the past few years that losing that is no biggy - but a few skill points and the end is nigh! Maybe we should adopt the WOW model and ships just respawn in your hangar when you get blown up? That often refers more to the moral ambiguity of EVE. The loss of ships and modules also serves a purpose in the game, other than HC e-peen waving. Without it there would be no industry/economy. It is what makes the world go round. If you remove it this whole thing will fall apart. Skill training on the other hand is nothing but a time sink and a measure of progress in the game. We have more than enough skills to train already and there will be even more added as time goes on, so there is no lack of timesinks. The point is anyway, that it kills many other features in the expansion, IF it is implemented in the way people fear. These ships need to be used and lost for all the planned features to work in the long run. Otherwise all that work poured into these features will mostly go to waste. It doesn't make any sense either and I'm not sure what value it adds to the game, if implemented this way. If CCP wants to add a HC SP loss feature, they could implement some experimental super(T3 ) implants, that give huge boosts to the pilots that dare to use them, but as a result some permanent memory loss will happen when podded. This or something similar would propably be acceptable by all involved and would not ruin any other features.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:51:00 - [238] Whaddya know, people are freaking out and whining about mechanics that haven't been released yet. Gee whiz, this hasn't happened in say every content patch that has ever been released Every post in this thread is useless and moronic, even mine. Wait until the ships hit Sisi or a dev blog is released and then do the threadnaught whinefest thing. -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
shone Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:54:00 - [239] Originally by: thelung187 Not going to read through 8 pages to see if this has already been proposed, but if so, my apologies. The only way that SP loss due to ship loss can be balanced is to allow for SP bonus for ship kills. Example: if I kill your t3 ship, you lose some t3 sp, while I (or spread amongst myself and whoever else is on the killmail) get appropriate SP bonuses. So if you lose 800 sp for losing your ship, my buddy and I each get 400sp tacked onto ours (in addition to regular SP accumulation over time). Otherwise, really, what can we do with t3 that we can't with existing ships? Or put more simply... why bother? Without the aforementioned balancing mechanic (or some type of incentive beyond "oooh shiny new things"), this is potentially on the same level of sheer epic failure as the introduction of POS or existing sovereignty mechanics. QFT
DeadDuck Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:55:00 - [240] So you gain experience points when flying these ships ?... So instead of being docked you better be afk cloaked on a tec3 ship in order to gain experience points ?? ________________ God is my Wingman

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