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Yeshua Christ	Posted - 2009.02.08 22:05:00 - [421] Edited by: Yeshua Christ on 08/02/2009 22:06:25 Seems perfectly acceptable to me. Takes longer than T2 to train even with the rank one skills. Originally by: Javius Rong well IMO this breaks some of the basic foundations of the game, such that skill points do not get lost if you have clone... This does not seem like a good idea and could tank the whole T3 introduction... HAHA took 2 replies for more whines to commence. I should be a prophet.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.08 22:06:00 - [422] Originally by: Pottsey MotherMoon said " under a month? fool there are 25 pieces." The way I understand it is, a skill per subsection not a skill per piece. There are 5 sections with one skill per section. The one skill applies to all pieces in that section. In which case you can perhaps max out T3 in perhaps 2 months or just under. 1 month for the 5 section skills and 1 month for the main ship skill. oh well in that case... uuuh... huh
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.02.08 22:07:00 - [423] Originally by: MotherMoon I love how if you eject you dont' lose skill points. AWESOME. dude, get out of ship and I won't take your sp! Yes, interesting piracy opportunities indeed.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.02.08 22:10:00 - [424] Edited by: Tippia on 08/02/2009 22:11:40 …and of course, then there's the perpetual question of whether lvl V is really worth it. Personally, I can bash out lvl IV on a ship-related Rank 1 skill in ~16h. Not much of a loss. I would still have preferred the ship-based, industralist-farmable solution though…
Yeshua Christ	Posted - 2009.02.08 22:12:00 - [425] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 08/02/2009 22:10:08 àand of course, then there's the perpetual question of whether lvl V is really worth it. Personally, I can bash out lvl IV on a ship-related Rank 1 skill in ~16h. Not much of a loss. Exactly but if skillpoint loss hits the server the whines generated in this thread alone will multiple by a factor of n. (n being the number of carebear wannabe PvPers who can't handle a little risk ever at all)
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.08 22:13:00 - [426] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: MotherMoon I love how if you eject you dont' lose skill points. AWESOME. dude, get out of ship and I won't take your sp! Yes, interesting piracy opportunities indeed. hell, now I kinda want ship crews in eve, like a crew that trains over time,(not one you buy, just the basic dudes that come with it) the longer you are in a ship. That way maybe more people would give up their ships before they die. that would be really cool. but then how would you balance it, ect ect.
Kendrix Arathan Minmatar N00bs With Guns	Posted - 2009.02.08 22:36:00 - [427] Edited by: Kendrix Arathan on 08/02/2009 22:37:38 Originally by: Pottsey What I don't like is those who have invested more into the skills lose more. It might be worth keeping your skills at lvl 4 just so you don't lose that lvl 5. I dont see why someone with a lvl 5 skill should lose 5 days of skills while someone with a lvl 4 skill would lose much less. The better you are the more you lose. Surely the better the pilot is the less he would lose. It's one of the basic principals of EVE Benefit/Risk balancing, the higher the benefit the higher the risk. IE: I spent a ton of time on skills to be able to fly my fancy ship, fancy ships (in general) cost more. So i gain the benefit of "fanciness" but also gain the risk of added potential loss. This is just a loss that everyone is guaranteed to feel to at least some degree, even those with potentially limitless money.
vvizard NOR	Posted - 2009.02.08 22:37:00 - [428] Originally by: Javius Rong well IMO this breaks some of the basic foundations of the game, such that skill points do not get lost if you have clone... This does not seem like a good idea and could tank the whole T3 introduction... Have you considered the fact that CCP probably dont want every guy and his cat flying a T3 ship? Much like T2 ships when they where still expensive. If the risk is to high for you, simply dont fly them. It's simple.
Yeshua Christ	Posted - 2009.02.08 22:40:00 - [429] Originally by: vvizard NOR Originally by: Javius Rong well IMO this breaks some of the basic foundations of the game, such that skill points do not get lost if you have clone... This does not seem like a good idea and could tank the whole T3 introduction... Have you considered the fact that CCP probably dont want every guy and his cat flying a T3 ship? Much like T2 ships when they where still expensive. If the risk is to high for you, simply dont fly them. It's simple. QFT QF ****ing T
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.08 22:44:00 - [430] Originally by: vvizard NOR Originally by: Javius Rong well IMO this breaks some of the basic foundations of the game, such that skill points do not get lost if you have clone... This does not seem like a good idea and could tank the whole T3 introduction... Have you considered the fact that CCP probably dont want every guy and his cat flying a T3 ship? Much like T2 ships when they where still expensive. If the risk is to high for you, simply dont fly them. It's simple. I'm hoping they will be cheaper isk wise and just have skill risk

James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.02.08 22:51:00 - [431] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: vvizard NOR Originally by: Javius Rong well IMO this breaks some of the basic foundations of the game, such that skill points do not get lost if you have clone... This does not seem like a good idea and could tank the whole T3 introduction... Have you considered the fact that CCP probably dont want every guy and his cat flying a T3 ship? Much like T2 ships when they where still expensive. If the risk is to high for you, simply dont fly them. It's simple. I'm hoping they will be cheaper isk wise and just have skill risk That I'd take. What I don't want is to have them insanely expensive (because everyone in eve is rich, right?) _and_ burn time whenever you lose one.
Yaggher Xanuben Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.02.08 22:55:00 - [432] It's a new and fresh addition to the game, I like it! There should be more risk involved in PvP and ISK is just not the issue anymore. Losing SP on the other hand is. Now you can't just lose a T3 ship, dock up and sit in another one. There should be more penalties in game that make you think twice! T3 ships won't be blob-ships. They also won't be high-sec carebear mission running ships due to cruiser hull and thus probably not stronger compared to current mission hulls. This leaves us specialized, small, tactical groups. Who knows, this might be the beginning of re-doing the 0.0 and sov schematics. Anyway, I like the SP loss feature. I'd say make there even more penalties, make a 5% chance to lose some implant when your T3 ships gets blown up!
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.08 22:56:00 - [433] Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: vvizard NOR Originally by: Javius Rong well IMO this breaks some of the basic foundations of the game, such that skill points do not get lost if you have clone... This does not seem like a good idea and could tank the whole T3 introduction... Have you considered the fact that CCP probably dont want every guy and his cat flying a T3 ship? Much like T2 ships when they where still expensive. If the risk is to high for you, simply dont fly them. It's simple. I'm hoping they will be cheaper isk wise and just have skill risk That I'd take. What I don't want is to have them insanely expensive (because everyone in eve is rich, right?) _and_ burn time whenever you lose one. then eject before death.
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak KrautbreaK	Posted - 2009.02.08 23:06:00 - [434] Originally by: Grath Telkin In case you missed the clarification today: There are a total of 6 skills to fly t3 ships, 1 to fly the ship, and 5 devoted to the subsystems. The subsystem skills are all RANK 1 skills. Upon the loss of your ship, you lose one level of one of the sub system skills, so at MOST, you lose 5 days of training off the ship. To be clear, you lose NO OTHER SKILLS. I think you can turn panic mode off. Pretty much what was expected then. Seeing as it sounds as if you only lose the subsystem skills (i.e improving the performance of the ship, rather than just flying one) then the loss isnt anywhere near what the drama bombs were predicting. Best the hard core whiner so called "pvp'ers" make some pretty rapid U turns I think eh? C.
Tychus	Posted - 2009.02.08 23:15:00 - [435] Edited by: Tychus on 08/02/2009 23:16:08 Hi, Prof Tychus here, PHd in common sense... The irony of time loss vs. hardcore playstyle is not lost on me. My only real question is if it will be fun. If fun, then play. Tychus whips out his handy fun detector... beep boop click no fun detected as currently explained... plus, i can SMELL the exploit allready. Make ship active -> go to work, while ship gains exp -> cat ship spins for 10 hours -> come home to better boat violencer -> profit! or if its based on your personal skills: Buy t3 cruiser. It is now the "battery boat" and never undocks while you're at uni/work. clone jump to identical ship in distant system when ready. As long as the battery boat never undocks, you don't lose skills. Also a good way to splash kill mails, going down? EJECT!! Maybe. Pre-nerfed, grindy, time wasting game mechanic either way . PLEASE MAKE IT FUN CCP, thats all i ask. T [/i]
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.02.08 23:15:00 - [436] Originally by: Cailais Originally by: Grath Telkin In case you missed the clarification today: There are a total of 6 skills to fly t3 ships, 1 to fly the ship, and 5 devoted to the subsystems. The subsystem skills are all RANK 1 skills. Upon the loss of your ship, you lose one level of one of the sub system skills, so at MOST, you lose 5 days of training off the ship. To be clear, you lose NO OTHER SKILLS. I think you can turn panic mode off. Pretty much what was expected then. Seeing as it sounds as if you only lose the subsystem skills (i.e improving the performance of the ship, rather than just flying one) then the loss isnt anywhere near what the drama bombs were predicting. Best the hard core whiner so called "pvp'ers" make some pretty rapid U turns I think eh? C. I'l definitely be flying them. If they don't horribly suck that is.
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak KrautbreaK	Posted - 2009.02.08 23:15:00 - [437] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: MotherMoon I love how if you eject you dont' lose skill points. AWESOME. dude, get out of ship and I won't take your sp! Yes, interesting piracy opportunities indeed. Originally by: Bellum Eternus Frankly, I think that the SP loss idea is total crap.. Er.so Bellum..are you for or against? C.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.08 23:18:00 - [438] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Cailais Originally by: Grath Telkin In case you missed the clarification today: There are a total of 6 skills to fly t3 ships, 1 to fly the ship, and 5 devoted to the subsystems. The subsystem skills are all RANK 1 skills. Upon the loss of your ship, you lose one level of one of the sub system skills, so at MOST, you lose 5 days of training off the ship. To be clear, you lose NO OTHER SKILLS. I think you can turn panic mode off. Pretty much what was expected then. Seeing as it sounds as if you only lose the subsystem skills (i.e improving the performance of the ship, rather than just flying one) then the loss isnt anywhere near what the drama bombs were predicting. Best the hard core whiner so called "pvp'ers" make some pretty rapid U turns I think eh? C. I'l definitely be flying them. If they don't horribly suck that is. yeah if they are no better than tech 2 then there will be no reason to fly them.
Grarr Dexx Amarr Divinity's Edge	Posted - 2009.02.08 23:21:00 - [439] Another boost to carebears...
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.02.08 23:22:00 - [440] Originally by: MotherMoon yeah if they are no better than tech 2 then there will be no reason to fly them. Well yeah, but if they're just cruisers and don't out perform my existing command ships and BS, or do some other job really well, I won't be flying them much either, as there simply isn't any point. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting

Yeshua Christ	Posted - 2009.02.08 23:22:00 - [441] Originally by: Grarr Dexx Another boost to carebears... Really? How so?
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak KrautbreaK	Posted - 2009.02.08 23:23:00 - [442] Originally by: Tychus Edited by: Tychus on 08/02/2009 23:16:08 plus, i can SMELL the exploit allready. Make ship active -> go to work, while ship gains exp -> cat ship spins for 10 hours -> come home to better boat violencer -> profit! or if its based on your personal skills: Buy t3 cruiser. It is now the "battery boat" and never undocks while you're at uni/work. clone jump to identical ship in distant system when ready. As long as the battery boat never undocks, you don't lose skills. Thing is, if you get a T3 ship blown up - you lose those subsystem skills - regardless of what ships youve got docked up somewhere. As your skills train all the time your first suggestion is not relevant. Simple thing to do is use your skill que to rack up what ever subsystem skills you want trained. Go to work (carry on playing, whatever) at a point that suits you jump into T3 ship and use it. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2009.02.08 23:23:00 - [443] Originally by: Grath Telkin In case you missed the clarification today: There are a total of 6 skills to fly t3 ships, 1 to fly the ship, and 5 devoted to the subsystems. The subsystem skills are all RANK 1 skills. Upon the loss of your ship, you lose one level of one of the sub system skills, so at MOST, you lose 5 days of training off the ship. To be clear, you lose NO OTHER SKILLS. I think you can turn panic mode off. Sounds like an interesting idea to me. We'll see how it plays out on test. And people please not the "at most". That's for a maxed skill. If you have that subsystem skill at lvl 3 and have to retraining from lvl 2 - that's just a few hours. It's rarely worth going beyond lvl 4 anyway - that's a couple days. Actually not such a big deal. --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOSER EVE TV- Bring it back! Laptop, NVidia7900GS, Ubuntu 8.04, WINE
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak KrautbreaK	Posted - 2009.02.08 23:27:00 - [444] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: MotherMoon yeah if they are no better than tech 2 then there will be no reason to fly them. Well yeah, but if they're just cruisers and don't out perform my existing command ships and BS, or do some other job really well, I won't be flying them much either, as there simply isn't any point. Well their hall mark feature is their flexibility. In theory you can swap out sub systems for the role you want to perform. I can't see them being that much better than commands (we'll have to wait for T3 BC and BS for that). Plus you've got the unpredictability factor to throw in. Admittedly those are slight advantages, but sometimes that's all you need. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Tychus	Posted - 2009.02.08 23:35:00 - [445] Cailais wrote: Thing is, if you get a T3 ship blown up - you lose those subsystem skills - regardless of what ships youve got docked up somewhere. As your skills train all the time your first suggestion is not relevant. Simple thing to do is use your skill que to rack up what ever subsystem skills you want trained. Go to work (carry on playing, whatever) at a point that suits you jump into T3 ship and use it. C. Ok, if thats hows it gonna work, ok. We're all dealing largely with speculation here anyway. But you can detect the grind factor right? This should not take a crayon schematic for anyone to see. LOTHAR OF THE HILL PEOPLE DEMANDS FUN! NOT MORE GRINDY! LOTHAR HIT WITH STICK! T
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak KrautbreaK	Posted - 2009.02.08 23:41:00 - [446] Originally by: Tychus Cailais wrote: Thing is, if you get a T3 ship blown up - you lose those subsystem skills - regardless of what ships youve got docked up somewhere. As your skills train all the time your first suggestion is not relevant. Simple thing to do is use your skill que to rack up what ever subsystem skills you want trained. Go to work (carry on playing, whatever) at a point that suits you jump into T3 ship and use it. C. Ok, if thats hows it gonna work, ok. We're all dealing largely with speculation here anyway. But you can detect the grind factor right? This should not take a crayon schematic for anyone to see. LOTHAR OF THE HILL PEOPLE DEMANDS FUN! NOT MORE GRINDY! LOTHAR HIT WITH STICK! T EVE is an MMO, generally speaking anything in an MMO that takes either time, or effort, could be classed as a 'grind'. For me grinding means doing exactly the self same activity over an over and over again rather than say doing lots of different things for the self same benefit. e.g repeatedly killing goblins or whatever (even though you could go and splat a whole range of different NPCs). EVEs skill system isnt exactly a grinding process as it happens continuously over time with relatively little direct input. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Dr Ming Mindworks	Posted - 2009.02.08 23:50:00 - [447] T3 is going to be a failure in practice. T3 sounds great in a theroycrafting lag free make-believe land where blobs and just plain unfairness don't exist. T3 sounds great in a fairy-tale world where you are the center of the show, and your cunning gameplay will allow you to avoid SP loss while inflicting it on others. Fact of the matter is that your average, and your cunning gameplay isn't any more cunning that anyone else's. SP is a resource you gain at a fixed rate. You can't play better to get more SP. Losing SP when your ship blows up means that your character is going to become r.etarded. Your character is going to be r.etarded because your average and you die as often as you kill. Or maybe your above average, and you still die because average people ganged up on you. Actually, the people in T2 ships are going to primary you EVERY SINGLE TIME. So you going to die a lot more. Because people know that killing your ship makes your character r.etarded. People play MMOs to make their character better. In that context, the design of T3 is mindbogglingly horrible and isn't going to be a popular option. If T3 is not a popular option, then wormhole space is not going to be popular.
Kendrix Arathan Minmatar N00bs With Guns	Posted - 2009.02.08 23:51:00 - [448] Originally by: Tychus Cailais wrote: Thing is, if you get a T3 ship blown up - you lose those subsystem skills - regardless of what ships youve got docked up somewhere. As your skills train all the time your first suggestion is not relevant. Simple thing to do is use your skill que to rack up what ever subsystem skills you want trained. Go to work (carry on playing, whatever) at a point that suits you jump into T3 ship and use it. C. Ok, if thats hows it gonna work, ok. We're all dealing largely with speculation here anyway. But you can detect the grind factor right? This should not take a crayon schematic for anyone to see. LOTHAR OF THE HILL PEOPLE DEMANDS FUN! NOT MORE GRINDY! LOTHAR HIT WITH STICK! T A) you fail at quotes, thus making your posts unreadable... 2) You fail at reading, while subject to change, what is currently being discussed (except by you) was stated as "how it works" by the Devs (and is how it will be on SiSi tomorrow) c) Did you just complain about having to train skills to fly a ship and call it "grindy" Originally by: StevieSG Verone looks like data from star trek. that is all.
Yeshua Christ	Posted - 2009.02.08 23:57:00 - [449] Originally by: Dr Ming T3 is going to be a failure in practice. T3 sounds great in a theroycrafting lag free make-believe land where blobs and just plain unfairness don't exist. T3 sounds great in a fairy-tale world where you are the center of the show, and your cunning gameplay will allow you to avoid SP loss while inflicting it on others. Fact of the matter is that your average, and your cunning gameplay isn't any more cunning that anyone else's. SP is a resource you gain at a fixed rate. You can't play better to get more SP. Losing SP when your ship blows up means that your character is going to become r.etarded. Your character is going to be r.etarded because your average and you die as often as you kill. Or maybe your above average, and you still die because average people ganged up on you. Actually, the people in T2 ships are going to primary you EVERY SINGLE TIME. So you going to die a lot more. Because people know that killing your ship makes your character r.etarded. People play MMOs to make their character better. In that context, the design of T3 is mindbogglingly horrible and isn't going to be a popular option. If T3 is not a popular option, then wormhole space is not going to be popular. All I could read said WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH CCP ruined T3 cause it is risky!
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak KrautbreaK	Posted - 2009.02.09 00:00:00 - [450] Originally by: Dr Ming T3 is going to be a failure in practice. Fact of the matter is that your average, and your cunning gameplay isn't any more cunning that anyone else's. Speak for youself - personally Im l33t. Originally by: Dr Ming SP is a resource you gain at a fixed rate. You can't play better to get more SP. Funny, because if you dont die, in comparison to someone in a T3 ship who does - you will, in fact get more SP. Quote: Losing SP when your ship blows up means that your character is going to become r.etarded. Dont like em, dont fly em. Personally I dont get myself in a twist over whether someone else thinks Im rubbish or not - I just play the game. Quote: . Actually, the people in T2 ships are going to primary you EVERY SINGLE TIME. So you going to die a lot more. Because people know that killing your ship makes your character r.etarded. And vs the all T3 gang? Or when actually calling primary on the uber tanked T3 ship is just plain stupid and gets you killed? Quote: People play MMOs to make their character better. In that context, the design of T3 is mindbogglingly horrible and isn't going to be a popular option. If T3 is not a popular option, then wormhole space is not going to be popular. We'll see - but when those first T3 ships hit the market I'm pretty confident they'll be very expensive, and every man and his dog will want one - if only because they're new. And finally, wormholes arent just about scooping T3 NPC loot, they'll also offer new environmental challenges, not to mention remarkably useful short cuts to distant areas of space. C.



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