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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 22 post(s) |
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2009.02.10 19:10:00 -
[1]
This is a thread for feedback on the process of making a Tech III strategic cruiser.
Very briefly since the blog is not published yet, here is an overview of the current implementation on singularity:
- Hybrid Polymers are made from reacting fullerenes (new types of gas found in wormhole space) with regular minerals using a new reactor/silo
- Hybrid Components are manufactured from polymers and Sleeper Salvage in a component assembly array or assembly line
- Subsystems and hulls are manufactured from hybrid components in a new subsystem assembly array or outpost assembly lines
- Subsystem and hull blueprints are reverse engineered from ancient relics. Reverse engineering works in a similar way to invention does. Reverse engineering research lines are available in a new experimental laboratory mobile lab or outpost research lines
Current Singularity Status - 77718
- The materials have been added to the market except for the hybrid components. They should be added soon
- The material icons are placeholders
- The material requirements for reactions and the blueprints are ready for feedback
- The material sources should be available soon when wormhole space opens, however as testing requires; QA or Bughunters may spawn the materials so you can test the individual steps.
Feedback is most welcome!
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Batolemaeus
Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.02.10 19:38:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Batolemaeus on 10/02/2009 19:38:31 The bpc i spotted during my 8ball sessions have a rather nasty skill requirement. Could the skills for the bpc be set globally to the required level for all characters, similar like oyu did when bombs were deployed on sisi? |
Jian Gi
Caldari Destructive Influence KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.02.10 19:43:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Jian Gi on 10/02/2009 19:44:05 lol.
I just got back from work and spend two hours researching for a guide on this.
I guess I should have read the forums first :) |
Mashie Saldana
Minmatar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2009.02.10 19:49:00 -
[4]
Please seed the Experimental Laboratory Mobile Lab.
Also, are no skills at all required to reverse engineer? |
MOOstradamus
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Posted - 2009.02.10 20:20:00 -
[5]
Does anybody really enjoy the POS aspect of EVE, seriously
Please don't force this drudgery on us
MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer |
Mashie Saldana
Minmatar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2009.02.10 20:29:00 -
[6]
Ok, major problem that will prevent testing of this, the "Intact Hull Sections" can't be placed in cargoholds so impossible to move from the stations they are bought in.
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Mashie Saldana
Minmatar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2009.02.10 20:33:00 -
[7]
Originally by: MOOstradamus Does anybody really enjoy the POS aspect of EVE, seriously
Please don't force this drudgery on us
Any bets if the new labs only can be anchored in 0.3 or lower?
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.02.10 20:37:00 -
[8]
Sounds great to me!
Harvesting the gas needs surely gas cloud harvester and the gas cloud harvesting skill, right?
I suggest that multiple smaller clouds in a system are better than one huge.
Are the restrictions on the new reactor the same like the moon/biochemical reactors, system security status 0.3 or lower? Can the reverse engineering lab be anchored in high sec?
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.10 20:42:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: MOOstradamus Does anybody really enjoy the POS aspect of EVE, seriously
Please don't force this drudgery on us
Any bets if the new labs only can be anchored in 0.3 or lower?
I really hope the assembly arrays and the labs aren't limited to low sec/0.0, but the simple fact that the lines are limited to putpost seem to confirm it.
It will make this expansion another "large groups only expansion".
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2009.02.10 20:42:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 10/02/2009 20:43:09 Mining in W-Space?
I do not know how much of the stuff will be needed in manufacture nor how much cargo it fills but logistics in mining OPs is a pain in hi sec. In W-Space it'll be considerably harder (if you can get an Orca in maybe not awful but there is that mass limit dealie and Orcas are big). No stations to unload in out there either.
Add to that the gank factor. Just look at how much mining is done in low sec (read very, very little) and consider this will be worse. Undefended 0.0 space (so bubbles and HICs). I know, I know...bring a gang. Fine. Still sounds dicey at best.
With all the above, and again not knowing amounts needed, I expect the mats for this to be quite valuable and T3 exceptionally expensive.
EDIT: Oh yeah...will gas harvesters and the skills become more available than they are now?
-------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Mikal Drey
Minmatar Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.10 20:43:00 -
[11]
hey hey
from an initial read and enjoy perspective it all seems highly convoluted.
Gas+mins >> polymer+sleeper salvage = component ancient relic+reverse engineering = BPC
component+BPC = hull component+BPC = subsystem
hull+subsystem = Loki
coupled with new labs, assembly arrays, skills. etc they are gonna be insanly expensive. I know its T3 but thats alot of investment for a builder. its very intensive tbh
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2009.02.10 20:46:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Venkul Mul I really hope the assembly arrays and the labs aren't limited to low sec/0.0, but the simple fact that the lines are limited to putpost seem to confirm it.
Gad I hope they do not sideline 80% of EVE like this.
The OP says: "new subsystem assembly array or outpost assembly lines."
That reads to me like POS and Outposts.
I would not be surprised if it is low sec only POS though.
-------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Batolemaeus
Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.02.10 20:49:00 -
[13]
Trying to load some of the stuff into my freighter:
"This item cannot be put into cargo containers." while trying to move them into cargo
Only happens with:
Intact Hull Section Malfunctioning Hull Section Wrecked Hull Section Malfunctioning Weapon Subroutines (Intact Weapon Subroutines can be loaded, though) Wrecked Weapon Subroutines
All others seem to be allowed to reside inside a freighter ;)
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2009.02.10 20:54:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana Edited by: Mashie Saldana on 10/02/2009 20:08:31 Please seed the Experimental Laboratory Mobile Lab.
Also, are no skills at all required to reverse engineer?
Will we be able to influence what racial BPC's it will be or is it just plain random? If so how?
There are five new science based skills, one for each subsystem (eg engineering subsystem technology). These are also used for manufacture of the subsystems and will be available soon. They will be required in addition to some of the existing skills.
You choose what racial BPC you use through the decryptor. Although they are called decryptors, they are not like invention decryptors, they do not currently modify the output blueprint at all. There is one decryptor for each race and it is required for each job to have at least one.
Quote: Ok, major problem that will prevent testing of this, the "Intact Hull Sections" can't be placed in cargoholds so impossible to move from the stations they are bought in.
Quote: Intact Hull Section Malfunctioning Hull Section Wrecked Hull Section Malfunctioning Weapon Subroutines (Intact Weapon Subroutines can be loaded, though) Wrecked Weapon Subroutines
this has been fixed internally.
Quote: Are the restrictions on the new reactor the same like the moon/biochemical reactors, system security status 0.3 or lower? Can the reverse engineering lab be anchored in high sec?
the assembly arrays and experimental labs can be anchored anywhere, the polymer reactors must be used in low sec space. There is the possibility we will also add to station assemblylines but these would be expensive. |
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.02.10 21:00:00 -
[15]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis the assembly arrays and experimental labs can be anchored anywhere, the polymer reactors must be used in low sec space. There is the possibility we will also add to station assemblylines but these would be expensive.
Excellent! That sounds as it should be. These are good news!
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Slash Bodenski
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Posted - 2009.02.10 21:15:00 -
[16]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis You choose what racial BPC you use through the decryptor. Although they are called decryptors, they are not like invention decryptors, they do not currently modify the output blueprint at all. There is one decryptor for each race and it is required for each job to have at least one.
Are decrypters consumed in the process? Or are they more like data interfaces that are reusable?
Slash Bodenski
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Mashie Saldana
Minmatar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2009.02.10 21:30:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Mashie Saldana on 10/02/2009 21:33:24 Edited by: Mashie Saldana on 10/02/2009 21:32:55
Originally by: CCP Chronotis the assembly arrays and experimental labs can be anchored anywhere, the polymer reactors must be used in low sec space. There is the possibility we will also add to station assemblylines but these would be expensive.
I can report that it is not working to anchor the subsystem assembly array in 0.6. I can launch it for corp but when I click anchor nothing happens, not even an error message. I tried to anchor it next to a medium shadow POS in Jel.
Any idea when the skillbooks and labs will be seeded? |
Mashie Saldana
Minmatar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2009.02.10 21:32:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Slash Bodenski Are decrypters consumed in the process? Or are they more like data interfaces that are reusable?
Slash Bodenski
Most likely consumed, you have one hybrid decryptor per race and a single Hybrid Tuner Data Interface. |
Slash Bodenski
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Posted - 2009.02.10 21:42:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Slash Bodenski on 10/02/2009 21:44:26 That's a shame. Not unexpected, but oh well. High barriers to being a vertically integrated shop unless you are really big. Looking forward to seeing the BPCs become available to get an idea of the volumes of material needed. The reaction amounts make little sense without the context of the total needs for a ship/module.
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Tharrn
Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.11 00:06:00 -
[20]
Hmm... the Fullerenes are not even listed on the market. How can we get hold of them to test the functionality of the Polymer Reactors?
-----
Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be. |
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Halada
Caldari Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 00:25:00 -
[21]
Will you release skills and these relics on SiSi?
Basically looking for the list of skills that are required and prerequisites! |
El'essar Viocragh
Minmatar Meltdown Luftfahrttechnik
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Posted - 2009.02.11 00:30:00 -
[22]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Hybrid Components are manufactured from polymers and Sleeper Salvage in a component assembly array or assembly line
Before the waste calculation change that has been reversed again, component arrays applied their 1.1 material multiplier only to capital components and tools. T2 components were built with a 1.0 multiplier. Granted, this may have been a bug, but at least they had a use back then.
Since then, it simply isn't feasible to use them, even with their 0.75 time multiplier, as 10% higher build cost with the rather inefficient invention output BPCs completely kills production business.
I therefor suggest you save yourself the trouble of adding the new stuff as buildables to the component arrays. Noone will use them, unless the materials will have an abundancy and price similar to Tritanium in K-space. |
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
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Posted - 2009.02.11 03:30:00 -
[23]
Sounds like a real boost to 0.0 eh?
Patri
A fool usually thinks he is a genius |
Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2009.02.11 08:23:00 -
[24]
TBH, please leave it as convoluted as it is. Creates more market opportunities and sub-careers.
1. W-space explorer who recovers "stuff", whether salvage, artifacts, gas, and sells on market. 2. Small/medium-time POS operator kitted out for reacting in low-sec, buying components off market. 3. Small/medium time POS operator kitted out for manufacturing hulls in high-sec, buying BPCs/components off market/contracts.
Plus there's always the option of setting up a whole-of-chain setup which manufactures whatever BPCs you have and buying whatever bits you don't get from W-space from market again, selling whatever you recover and don't need.
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ollobrains2
Gallente New Eve Order Holdings
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Posted - 2009.02.11 09:59:00 -
[25]
well going into wsapce with comabte ships ( for amols) gas mining or mineral mining even is still not even needing a permanent wspace rpesense.
All the other pos slots can be setup in low sec even the construction and blending systems u sjust need to source from wspace
It just adds more variance to wspace.
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Dianalexia
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Posted - 2009.02.11 10:27:00 -
[26]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis the assembly arrays and experimental labs can be anchored anywhere, the polymer reactors must be used in low sec space. There is the possibility we will also add to station assemblylines but these would be expensive.
It will be awesome to have assembly line in low-sec and 0.0 stations and outposts only. It will provide a nice boost for these regions, especially for low-sec! |
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:27:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Tharrn Hmm... the Fullerenes are not even listed on the market. How can we get hold of them to test the functionality of the Polymer Reactors?
Originally by: Halada Will you release skills and these relics on SiSi?
Basically looking for the list of skills that are required and prerequisites!
yes, the remaining materials and skills will be released for testing in the next sisi update.
Originally by: El'essar Viocragh
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Hybrid Components are manufactured from polymers and Sleeper Salvage in a component assembly array or assembly line
Before the waste calculation change that has been reversed again, component arrays applied their 1.1 material multiplier only to capital components and tools. T2 components were built with a 1.0 multiplier. Granted, this may have been a bug, but at least they had a use back then.
Since then, it simply isn't feasible to use them, even with their 0.75 time multiplier, as 10% higher build cost with the rather inefficient invention output BPCs completely kills production business.
They are commodities so can be manufactured at stations and the component assembly array. The component assembly array material multiplier has been reduced to 1.0 witn apocrypha.
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Laendra
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:52:00 -
[28]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis The component assembly array material multiplier has been reduced to 1.0 witn apocrypha.
Finally!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can you fix the Advanced Ship Assembly Arrays fubar modifier now too? -------------------
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Horchan
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.11 16:47:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Horchan on 11/02/2009 16:47:39
Originally by: CCP Chronotis yes, the remaining materials and skills will be released for testing in the next sisi update.
Excellent. That was exactly what I was checking this thread for. Do you have an ETA of when the next update will hit Sisi?
Edit: Also, any chance of adding Reverse Engineering slots to the stations in FD- or surrounding systems? ---
DesuSigs |
Sazuka Kirr
Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2009.02.11 17:26:00 -
[30]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
- Hybrid Polymers are made from reacting fullerenes (new types of gas found in wormhole space) with regular minerals using a new reactor/silo
Will these 'new types of gas' come in the same form as the harvestable gas clouds used in booster production?
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DukeJoost1
The Last Solution Inc
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Posted - 2009.02.11 18:58:00 -
[31]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
The component assembly array material multiplier has been reduced to 1.0 witn apocrypha.
Thank you , thank you , thank you.
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.02.11 20:51:00 -
[32]
Just took a glance at t3 bpo/bpcs. Only cruiser construction4? Even HICs require more...
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Jinshu
German Kings Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2009.02.11 21:12:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Just took a glance at t3 bpo/bpcs. Only cruiser construction4? Even HICs require more...
Are they seeded yet ? Didn't found any. ------------------------------------ The Game cannot be won, only played. ------------------------------------ |
Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.02.11 21:33:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Jinshu
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Just took a glance at t3 bpo/bpcs. Only cruiser construction4? Even HICs require more...
Are they seeded yet ? Didn't found any.
Some linkys were posted around this subforums. Might be bullcrap tho.
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Kabeil Blackdawn
The Shadow Order New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.02.11 22:19:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Kabeil Blackdawn on 11/02/2009 22:22:17 The bpo requirement are the one from the Sisi database:
http://www.ellatha.com/eve/Forum.asp?forum=9ºion=119&post=3206&title=T3%20Blueprints
To find them yourself Type Legion (or any other text) select the text and right click - autolink - item type Select Legion Blueprint This creates a link to the blueprint
You can find plenty of nice thing doing this...
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DaOpa
Amarr Static Corp
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Posted - 2009.02.12 00:07:00 -
[36]
Edited by: DaOpa on 12/02/2009 00:08:02
Originally by: Kabeil Blackdawn Edited by: Kabeil Blackdawn on 11/02/2009 22:22:17 The bpo requirement are the one from the Sisi database:
http://www.ellatha.com/eve/Forum.asp?forum=9ºion=119&post=3206&title=T3%20Blueprints
To find them yourself Type Legion (or any other text) select the text and right click - autolink - item type Select Legion Blueprint This creates a link to the blueprint
You can find plenty of nice thing doing this...
that link is off .. the section isnt included .. if anyone wants to see that link directly
Use this link
---------- LP Store Database - Currently under heavy updating |
Erovicious
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Posted - 2009.02.12 02:23:00 -
[37]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Hybrid Polymers are made from reacting fullerenes (new types of gas found in wormhole space) with regular minerals using a new reactor/silo
...and all my optimism for T3 out the door. Forcing us to maintain gutterspace (low-sec) or 0 space POS's to do reactions. Can the love affair be over someday??
I'd really thought that feedback from our representatives MIGHT have gotten through that there is a significant part of the player base that detests the guttertrash that is low-sec, and the grade-school politics of zero space - yet here we are again being forced into it to compete or be slaves to the wallet wrenching market debauchery of the 0 space alliances.
Did we NOT learn a lesson with Ferrogel?
Let T3 be something new and something separate - not just more of the same old work-yer-can off crap to make a few bucks.
*Ero*
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Erovicious
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Posted - 2009.02.12 02:34:00 -
[38]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis the polymer reactors must be used in low sec space.
Chronotis,
Please explain this. This makes no sense to myself or to anyone I talk with. Is the air different in low-sec or something? I'm not following how the presence of Concord's law enforcement has an effect on a chemical reaction??
*Ero*
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Puk Jinn
Tempestas Oriens Sev3rance
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Posted - 2009.02.12 03:18:00 -
[39]
one unworthy competitor less ... me rubbs his hands
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El'essar Viocragh
Minmatar Meltdown Luftfahrttechnik
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Posted - 2009.02.12 04:03:00 -
[40]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis The component assembly array material multiplier has been reduced to 1.0 witn apocrypha.
You are a hero.
And I second the motion that Cruiser Construction 4 is too low a requirement.
I'd vote for <Racial> Starship Engineering 5 and Cruiser Construction 5. These are specialist ships, let them be produced by specialists. -- [17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim |
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Rika I
Caldari Tomoe Laboratories Celestial Imperative
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Posted - 2009.02.12 05:54:00 -
[41]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis The component assembly array material multiplier has been reduced to 1.0 witn apocrypha.
This is good. Though at this point, why even have so many different arrays? Just have one normal array that can build everything (except t2 ships) with 1.0 and 75% time and then a 2nd array that can build anything with 1.1 and 65%.
Originally by: Erovicious ...and all my optimism for T3 out the door. Forcing us to maintain gutterspace (low-sec) or 0 space POS's to do reactions. Can the love affair be over someday??
I'd really thought that feedback from our representatives MIGHT have gotten through that there is a significant part of the player base that detests the guttertrash that is low-sec, and the grade-school politics of zero space - yet here we are again being forced into it to compete or be slaves to the wallet wrenching market debauchery of the 0 space alliances.
It's the carebears like you that give a bad name to real industrialists... Also, if they are too easy to make, our profit will be ruined by the "resources I obtain myself are free" idiots.
Originally by: El'essar Viocragh And I second the motion that Cruiser Construction 4 is too low a requirement.
I'd vote for <Racial> Starship Engineering 5 and Cruiser Construction 5. These are specialist ships, let them be produced by specialists.
QFT! There is almost no point in being a veteran industrialist at the moment with such low manufacturing skill requirements. It takes years of training to be a top PvP pilot but a few month old alt can build almost anything in the game which ruins our profits too!
----------------------------- Rika, the Uber Researcher! |
Boma Airaken
The Divine Comedy Celestial Imperative
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Posted - 2009.02.12 06:08:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Erovicious ...and all my optimism for T3 out the door. Forcing us to maintain gutterspace (low-sec) or 0 space POS's to do reactions. Can the love affair be over someday??
I'd really thought that feedback from our representatives MIGHT have gotten through that there is a significant part of the player base that detests the guttertrash that is low-sec, and the grade-school politics of zero space - yet here we are again being forced into it to compete or be slaves to the wallet wrenching market debauchery of the 0 space alliances.
Holy moses on a hot plate. Are you ****ing serious? Guttertrash? I honestly don't even know where to start with a moron like you. Do I say "So you failed at doing the work required to carve out your lowsec empire?". Or do I start with how much of an utter ***** you are for not even trying?
What are you contributing to the cluster**** that is currently lowsec? Have you seen my post on assembly hall forums to improve lowsec? Or are you just some baby that needs to be coddled? I don't know if I should forward you to WoW or Hello Kitty online but I have a voice in my head saying you would fail there too. Put up or shut up.
Have some respect for the little guys who have carved out their own slice of lowsec successfully instead of ranting and raving about your FAILURE to be able to do so.
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Carniflex
Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.02.12 06:23:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Boma Airaken
Originally by: Erovicious ...and all my optimism for T3 out the door. Forcing us to maintain gutterspace (low-sec) or 0 space POS's to do reactions. Can the love affair be over someday??
I'd really thought that feedback from our representatives MIGHT have gotten through that there is a significant part of the player base that detests the guttertrash that is low-sec, and the grade-school politics of zero space - yet here we are again being forced into it to compete or be slaves to the wallet wrenching market debauchery of the 0 space alliances.
Holy moses on a hot plate. Are you ****ing serious? Guttertrash? I honestly don't even know where to start with a moron like you. Do I say "So you failed at doing the work required to carve out your lowsec empire?". Or do I start with how much of an utter ***** you are for not even trying?
What are you contributing to the cluster**** that is currently lowsec? Have you seen my post on assembly hall forums to improve lowsec? Or are you just some baby that needs to be coddled? I don't know if I should forward you to WoW or Hello Kitty online but I have a voice in my head saying you would fail there too. Put up or shut up.
Have some respect for the little guys who have carved out their own slice of lowsec successfully instead of ranting and raving about your FAILURE to be able to do so.
Cut the rant m8. Low sec sucks and anyone who claims otherwise is delusional in my opinion. However, I don't see the security restrictions to be major issue on this one, as you will need to mine the crap anyway out there in W-Space, so why not go all the way and react in there also. Your POS should be safer in there anyway than in low sec or zerozero.
And zerozero politiks IS kindegarden with automatic firearms. You need to be quite idealistic to be able claim otherwise. I don't see that as a problem either ofc - one needs his steady flow of blood for entertainement afterall.
Now about bulk of the materials, has anyone taken note of their size ? How feasible might be doing whole thing in W-Space and exporting the end products. As I understand from the comments there was need to use freighter for their transport ? Or was it just a test to see if freighter can carry them ?
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Dianalexia
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Posted - 2009.02.12 11:53:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Rika I QFT! There is almost no point in being a veteran industrialist at the moment with such low manufacturing skill requirements. It takes years of training to be a top PvP pilot but a few month old alt can build almost anything in the game which ruins our profits too!
I already have those @ 5, but i don't agree with the need for more Level 5 compulsory time sinks. Having lots of small producers creates a healthy capitalism, a stronger market, less susceptible to manipulation.
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Cailais
Amarr 0utbreak KrautbreaK
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Posted - 2009.02.12 13:46:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Erovicious
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Hybrid Polymers are made from reacting fullerenes (new types of gas found in wormhole space) with regular minerals using a new reactor/silo
...and all my optimism for T3 out the door. Forcing us to maintain gutterspace (low-sec) or 0 space POS's to do reactions. Can the love affair be over someday??
No ones forcing you to operate in low sec or .0, you can just produce tech 1 in Empire if you feel too vulnerable.
Low Sec generally sucks because there's nothing to do there like..er...make T3 ships!
C.
Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
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Tharrn
Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.12 15:53:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Tharrn on 12/02/2009 15:53:14 Materials to test the reactions - not seeded New Gases - not seeded Reverse Engineering labs - not seeded Wormholes - still collapsed
This thread is a bit pointless until the above points have been fixed :P
-----
Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be. |
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2009.02.12 16:16:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Tharrn Edited by: Tharrn on 12/02/2009 15:53:14 Materials to test the reactions - not seeded New Gases - not seeded Reverse Engineering labs - not seeded Wormholes - still collapsed
This thread is a bit pointless until the above points have been fixed :P
I am also interested in your opinions on the concept itself and not just the numbers balancing. Generally the nature of wormhole space (there is so much of it) means the resources will be common and diffusely gathered and returned to the market. The 3 step process is overall easier than T2 but wormhole op logistics could potentially make it a much more difficult combined with the amount of materials needed to manufacture a complete ship.
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2009.02.12 16:21:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Sazuka Kirr
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
- Hybrid Polymers are made from reacting fullerenes (new types of gas found in wormhole space) with regular minerals using a new reactor/silo
Will these 'new types of gas' come in the same form as the harvestable gas clouds used in booster production?
It uses the same mechanics of gas cloud harvesting yes but different types of clouds.
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Tharrn
Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.12 16:48:00 -
[49]
Well, then...
I like the concept as it creates business opportunities for small ventures, even if they are not able to build T3 ships. As we haven't been able to use Wormholes yet it's hard to judge though how difficult it'll be to get some kind of coherent production modell going (or even to just set up any kind of business oriented operation in W-Space - if you have to look for new entries/ways out like every day that wouldn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside for example). Wormhole stability will probably be an important tweaking factor for the whole production process.
Personally I am also very happy to see that you chose to make some more use of gas clouds (drug production is btw a fine example of how NOT to do it IMHO - a few centralized spots resulting in a largely unused game feature). Which reminds me of an issue: I dearly hope you'll make gas harvesters and gas harvesting skill available in W-space or on the market as there'll be no way that the current supply from 'drug sites' can cover the demand.
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Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be. |
DeTox MinRohim
Madhatters Inc. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 17:17:00 -
[50]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
I am also interested in your opinions on the concept itself and not just the numbers balancing. Generally the nature of wormhole space (there is so much of it) means the resources will be common and diffusely gathered and returned to the market. The 3 step process is overall easier than T2 but wormhole op logistics could potentially make it a much more difficult combined with the amount of materials needed to manufacture a complete ship.
Well, any ETA on the opening of said wormhole space? Hard to judge the difficulties when you can't go through all the chain and as it's impossible to get in, we can't judge the speed, logistic possibilities, etc. At least for the people who can't produce but could be planning on providing the producers with the materials.
------ This sig space is Read-only ! omgalink - Online Skillsheet |
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2009.02.12 17:35:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Tharrn
I dearly hope you'll make gas harvesters and gas harvesting skill available in W-space or on the market as there'll be no way that the current supply from 'drug sites' can cover the demand.
The concept atm is to make gas cloud harvesters manufacturable (add their blueprints) and along with the skill would be seeded in low sec faction space. I am tinkering with other changes as well to gas cloud harvesting but they are still in development.
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El'essar Viocragh
Minmatar Meltdown Luftfahrttechnik
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Posted - 2009.02.12 17:38:00 -
[52]
Edited by: El''essar Viocragh on 12/02/2009 17:41:02
Originally by: Dianalexia I already have those @ 5, but i don't agree with the need for more Level 5 compulsory time sinks. Having lots of small producers creates a healthy capitalism, a stronger market, less susceptible to manipulation.
I'm sorry, but I have to be frank here. Small time producers for the most part don't know how to operate a calculator and it reflects in their creative ways of determining their production cost.
It takes quite a bit of skill training to be a decent explorer. It takes a lot of skill training to be a decent pvp character. The same holds true for mission running. But with 3 weeks from character creation, you are already a highly competitive producer. Why? Is it an inferior profession choice?
And what do you meen with "even more" L5 time sinks? Right now, a producer encounters four level 5 timesinks in his skill training career (well, by my judgement at least).
- Outpost Construction 5, rank 16 - tier 3 outpost upgrades - Capital Ship Construction 5, rank 14 - Titans - Cruiser Construction 5, rank 5 - Command Ships, HIC - Frigate Construction 5, rank 2 - Dictors, AsFrigs
The first one probably noone ever needed on TQ so far. Training it even to 3 (tier 2 upgrades) would be most likely an act of boredom or skillsheet beautification.
Capital ship construction, well, Rorquals increased the amount of people that trained it to 4, yes. But how many different characters truely ever build titans?
So we are down to two levels 5s that a normal producer might need. And he can do happily without both.
@ Chronotis:
well, the production stages sure look interesting, but we would need to know the quantities involved. Right now it looks like the reactor might only be running for maybe a few hours peer week at most. For how many T3 ships will that suffice to build?
But I like the buff for the underused gas cloud harvesting. With its prime exposure in T3, it would be cool to get a revisit there. The 1 harvester per level mechanic is a bit weird. Or even Strip Vacuum Cleaner I with a fourth exhumer...
[NinjaEdit] Well, I can't really argue with the buildable harvesters, as player production is good and npc sales are bad. But why the seeding in lowsec? They are seeded in K-0.0 right now. If you are afraid to go there to get the stuff, how do you hope to use them in W-0.0? -- [17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim |
Dolgozo Lany
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Posted - 2009.02.12 17:40:00 -
[53]
To have a reliable self supporting assembly chain you would need the following:
2-3 dedicated scanners. 2-5 gas miners 2-5 sleeper hunters 2 alts to run the production jobs 1-2 POS janitors 1-2 brainiac with excellent skills for the research jobs, reverse engineering 4-5 for logistics 1 person who comprehends the full chain
of course the above roles can be merged and you may do it with 5-10 people, but with the absolutely unsure logistics it is going to be an industrial nightmare (and I'm NOT referring to the excellent, spiky Sansha Faction BS).
Plus you would need: + 1-5 months for the full set of skills, but in the meantime you can harvest the gas, salvage Sleepers, hack for the interface BPC and decryptors, use archeology for the Ancient Artifacts. + 5-6 billion investment, POS, ships, logistics. 'safe' low sec space, where pirates won't jump on the POS seeing the new type of POS modules.
Hmmm... fine?
Please, dont get me wrong. My main's corp is fully in T2 business with 20+ low sec POS full time invention cycles, reactions, T2 component and ship manufacturing on 60+ assembly lines. From the experience with r64 availability and all the work I would assume a very hard time for T3 manufacturers. Everything depends on the rarity factors of these items and if several ingredients are interchange-able or not, like the really-wished alchemy would do. I don't know if you understand me Chronotis.
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Cailais
Amarr 0utbreak KrautbreaK
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Posted - 2009.02.12 18:32:00 -
[54]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Tharrn
I dearly hope you'll make gas harvesters and gas harvesting skill available in W-space or on the market as there'll be no way that the current supply from 'drug sites' can cover the demand.
The concept atm is to make gas cloud harvesters manufacturable (add their blueprints) and along with the skill would be seeded in low sec faction space. I am tinkering with other changes as well to gas cloud harvesting but they are still in development.
Combat Booster production failed because of a variety of factors:
1. The 'start point' items (gas harvesters and skill books) were simply too rare on release. This meant they were expensive, and this cost had to be passed on to booster consumers.
2. The boosters came with disadvantages (high skill requirements and attribute penalties) that essentially outweighed their advantages.
3. The resources to build boosters were hard to reach, and risky to acquire: so few did so, meaning supply was so low virtually no one got to even experiment with them.
Hard to acquire boosters, with high overheads meant producers had to sell a sub par product for a high price. Needless to say it became a niche activity at best, and whilst a profit could be turned on boosters it was to a very small niche market.
Avoid these pitfalls (especially point '1') and T3 production should be ok and wont become a failed feature like combat boosters.
C.
Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
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Rika I
Caldari Tomoe Laboratories Celestial Imperative
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Posted - 2009.02.12 18:35:00 -
[55]
Originally by: El'essar Viocragh
Originally by: Dianalexia I already have those @ 5, but i don't agree with the need for more Level 5 compulsory time sinks. Having lots of small producers creates a healthy capitalism, a stronger market, less susceptible to manipulation.
I'm sorry, but I have to be frank here. Small time producers for the most part don't know how to operate a calculator and it reflects in their creative ways of determining their production cost.
It takes quite a bit of skill training to be a decent explorer. It takes a lot of skill training to be a decent pvp character. The same holds true for mission running. But with 3 weeks from character creation, you are already a highly competitive producer. Why? Is it an inferior profession choice?
And what do you meen with "even more" L5 time sinks? Right now, a producer encounters four level 5 timesinks in his skill training career (well, by my judgement at least).
- Outpost Construction 5, rank 16 - tier 3 outpost upgrades - Capital Ship Construction 5, rank 14 - Titans - Cruiser Construction 5, rank 5 - Command Ships, HIC - Frigate Construction 5, rank 2 - Dictors, AsFrigs
The first one probably noone ever needed on TQ so far. Training it even to 3 (tier 2 upgrades) would be most likely an act of boredom or skillsheet beautification.
Capital ship construction, well, Rorquals increased the amount of people that trained it to 4, yes. But how many different characters truely ever build titans?
So we are down to two levels 5s that a normal producer might need. And he can do happily without both.
QFT again. High barriers to entry are the only way to stop the market from being ruined by the "resources I acquire myself are free" idiots. There are 4 ways to accomplish this:
1) A lottery-type system (which is really unbalanced and doesn't scale with player growth) 2) High skill requirements (no manufacturing has this right now) 3) High start-up ISK requirements 4) Forced Lowsec build requirements
A combination of #3 and #4 work great and is apparent as capital ships are pretty much the only profitable thing to build right now. Adding in some #2 will make t3 even more exclusive, as it should be. #1 should never be done again in EVE or any MMO.
----------------------------- Rika, the Uber Researcher! |
Rika I
Caldari Tomoe Laboratories Celestial Imperative
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Posted - 2009.02.12 18:44:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Dolgozo Lany To have a reliable self supporting assembly chain you would need the following:
2-3 dedicated scanners. 2-5 gas miners 2-5 sleeper hunters 2 alts to run the production jobs 1-2 POS janitors 1-2 brainiac with excellent skills for the research jobs, reverse engineering 4-5 for logistics 1 person who comprehends the full chain
of course the above roles can be merged and you may do it with 5-10 people, but with the absolutely unsure logistics it is going to be an industrial nightmare (and I'm NOT referring to the excellent, spiky Sansha Faction BS).
Plus you would need: + 1-5 months for the full set of skills, but in the meantime you can harvest the gas, salvage Sleepers, hack for the interface BPC and decryptors, use archeology for the Ancient Artifacts. + 5-6 billion investment, POS, ships, logistics. 'safe' low sec space, where pirates won't jump on the POS seeing the new type of POS modules.
Hmmm... fine?
Not fine at all. It's way too easy. A small dedicated corp of 5-10 people can easily do that, it's not really any more difficult than the t2 chain. Also, like the t2 chain, you don't have to do every step yourself.
----------------------------- Rika, the Uber Researcher! |
Kravek
Lamb Federation Navy C0VEN
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Posted - 2009.02.12 18:59:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Kravek on 12/02/2009 18:59:43
Originally by: Cailais
Avoid these pitfalls (especially point '1') and T3 production should be ok and wont become a failed feature like combat boosters.
Boosters production is not "failed feature".
It is very lucrative... if you know how to carry out entire operation. This rule will apply too T3 production for sure.
Yours friendly Combat Boosters supplier!
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Akira Kurosaw
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Posted - 2009.02.12 19:16:00 -
[58]
it half assed to say producer take 2 month to be able to build everything.
I think you veiw of a producer is rather convoluted or maybe thats just me cause i my eye a producer is someone that can take something all the way from bpo to finised T2 product, which requierd a lot of skills.
What you are refering to is a builder alt, someone with just the basic science skills for building tiem X and the requied industry skill at 5.
Maybe some of you just want the glory days of T2 bpo monopoly back, the days when hac's where sold for +200mill because only a select few could build them
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Aeo IV
Amarr Xomic OmniCorporation
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Posted - 2009.02.12 19:19:00 -
[59]
Err.
It seems to me, these are the problems; A) no ships with gas harvesting bonuses (that I know of) B) no dedicated mining barges or such can fit gas harvesters. C) I really, really think you need to make the manufacturing available at stations, not just POSes and Outposts, or else the price is going to remain very high. D)Could you post some concrete information on the amount of gas and which minerals (etc) are needed in this process? I know it's not set atm, but it would be helpful. E) A Salvage guide (ie how much will be dropped, how difficult will it be to salvage a sleeper wreck) would also be extremely helpful as well.
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Kabeil Blackdawn
The Shadow Order New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.02.12 19:35:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Rika I Also, like the t2 chain, you don't have to do every step yourself.
I think that not being able to do everything solo is one of the point in the t3 production chain.
their is at least 9 different gas to harvest. A lot of different salvage types. Finding the right artifact.
When I looked at the steps to make a t3 ship, I was happy about it. Not too simple, but with a lot of variation. I see 4 big steps in the process: Gathering - Reaction (pos) - Reverse Engineering (pos)- manufacturing
Just gathering all you need to make one ship from scratch without going to the market is going to be very hard. This will also depend on numbers a lot: How hard is it to find a WH? How hard to find gas cloud? How hard is combat with sleeper? How much do sleeper drop...
Gathering This will require a large quantity of players to scan WH, go in their to fight sleeper and harvest gas cloud. A solo player that wants to get all this done alone will need a probe launcher, a gas cloud harvester and a salvager all in his High slots. This will reduce the fighting power of most ship. I would see lots of small gang, going in together for raids in WH space. Will gas cloud harvesting ops be needed to supply the market or will a few guys harvesting while fighting sleeper be enough? not sure.
Reaction (pos management) Because of the requirement, manufacturing polymer will require at least a pos much like the current reaction for T2. Thus only industrial oriented characters and corps will get in this business. The main difference is that the material flow may not be constant without buying it from market.(who know if your always going to find xxx-c32 gas clouds). Because of that, the material flow from WH-space to market will have to be somewhat constant to the market.
Reverse Engineering Will also require a pos to do. Will a solo player be able to make enough isk selling the bpc he gets with only doing reverse engineering at the pos. I don't know! Corps that do the reaction step might have the resident brainiac and a lab at one of their pos for that to continue the logistic chain.
manufacturing if no pos is required, someone could buy or reverse eng the needed bpc, buy components from the corp with poses and make the frame and subsystem for t3.
I see the logistics as an hourglass, lots of people going in WH to get items and sell them on the market. A few corp with poses to do the reaction and reverse enginering. A couple of people only doing reverse eng. lots of components on the market for a larger quantity of people just manufacturing frames and subsystem. All this will require people going in WH space to get the material to the market.
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Rika I
Caldari Tomoe Laboratories Celestial Imperative
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Posted - 2009.02.12 19:36:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Akira Kurosaw Maybe some of you just want the glory days of T2 bpo monopoly back, the days when hac's where sold for +200mill because only a select few could build them
There is a big difference between a monopoly based on skills and the old monopoly based on the lotto. In one, people can work their way into it while in the other, they could never get into it.
----------------------------- Rika, the Uber Researcher! |
Kabeil Blackdawn
The Shadow Order New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.02.12 19:52:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Rika I
Originally by: Akira Kurosaw Maybe some of you just want the glory days of T2 bpo monopoly back, the days when hac's where sold for +200mill because only a select few could build them
There is a big difference between a monopoly based on skills and the old monopoly based on the lotto. In one, people can work their way into it while in the other, they could never get into it.
As far as skills, like their is specialization in pvp and combat, their should be specialization in industry. I'm all for higher skill requirement so that not everyone can make any kind of t3 ship. Racial ship engineering V would separate different races. Cruiser construction V would help differentiate when other t3 class are invented. Maybe building subsystem could need racial ship engineering V and building frames Cruiser construction V and racial ship eng IV.
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Steve Thomas
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Posted - 2009.02.12 20:03:00 -
[63]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis I am also interested in your opinions on the concept itself and not just the numbers balancing. Generally the nature of wormhole space (there is so much of it) means the resources will be common and diffusely gathered and returned to the market. The 3 step process is overall easier than T2 but wormhole op logistics could potentially make it a much more difficult combined with the amount of materials needed to manufacture a complete ship.
CHrontis the BIG problem right now is that the Scanning system (unless you have completly replaced it since I last loged in) is a total FAILURE.
Untill thats resolved it dosnt matter if theirs 1 Wspace system or 10,000,000,000,000,000 with each one filled wall to wall with Jetcans full of high value minerals modules and beautiful buxom nymphomaniacle babes smeared with Branston pickle(sorry I skiped lunch) if noone can be arsed to use the brokenass crap that is the new scanning system.
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Tharrn
Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.12 20:12:00 -
[64]
It's better than the old system tbh. Staring at progress bars for hours was neither fun nor involving. If you don't want to do it - fine, more T3 goodies for me :P
So did I get that right that Gas Harvesters and skillbooks will be rewards from the existing pirate factions? That raises the question: why? Why can't the BPCs and skillbooks just drop from hacking sites in W-space?
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Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be. |
El'essar Viocragh
Minmatar Meltdown Luftfahrttechnik
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Posted - 2009.02.12 20:21:00 -
[65]
Edited by: El''essar Viocragh on 12/02/2009 20:22:26
Originally by: Akira Kurosaw it half assed to say producer take 2 month to be able to build everything.
I think you veiw of a producer is rather convoluted or maybe thats just me cause i my eye a producer is someone that can take something all the way from bpo to finised T2 product, which requierd a lot of skills.
What you are refering to is a builder alt, someone with just the basic science skills for building tiem X and the requied industry skill at 5.
You include Invention. Granted, that does take quite some skilltime.
But you don't have to invent yourself. Most inventors can easily output more t2 bpcs than they can produce themselves.
And while "2 months to build everything" may be exaggerated, it only really takes one rank 3 skill to be competitive in the T1 market (well, ship market). And I've just wiggled with EveMon a bit. A character can have 9 build slots and build Vagabonds 61 days 2 hours after creation. Add in another probably 4-5 days and he can build all the t2 components needed for the Vagabond too. By the nature of the production system in Eve, this character has perfected his profession with regards to Vagabonds. There is no better building. I'd like to haer the outcry (from myself too I have to admit) if a 2 month char could fly a HAC with perfect skills in pvp.
Quote: Maybe some of you just want the glory days of T2 bpo monopoly back, the days when hac's where sold for +200mill because only a select few could build them
Dunno if I would want it back. I started playing not too long before invention kicked off big time, so I have no significant experience of that time period.
A high skill entry barrier market is however something entirely different than an ungodly amount of luck entry barrier market. And more easily achieved than a high isk entry barrier market like capital construction right now - all you need is patience.
[Edit] @Tharrn: because that is where they are seeded right now already. Initially they came from the drug radar cosmos plexes only, but that limited their availability too much. -- [17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim |
Steve Thomas
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Posted - 2009.02.12 20:24:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Tharrn It's better than the old system tbh. Staring at progress bars for hours was neither fun nor involving. If you don't want to do it - fine, more T3 goodies for me :P
So did I get that right that Gas Harvesters and skillbooks will be rewards from the existing pirate factions? That raises the question: why? Why can't the BPCs and skillbooks just drop from hacking sites in W-space?
Well if it actualy worked that would be one thing. as it is im finding that a lot of the results im getting are either non existant. (Ie you go to the location and nothing is there, reset all of your probes and get a confirmation hit indicating that yes you are EXACTLY where it says the hit is and there is still nothing there) or for some reason are not where the probes say the result should be(Bascialy its about 20-30 min flighttime w a nano/mwd straight down or straight up from where I land, and yes I do space my probes offplane, if you can visualise the corners of a D4 one probe is on the same plane as me, the others would be in diferent corners up down and lateraly)
Like I said they may have solved this (or I may be screwing something up) but its still annoying
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Paranoid MindZ
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Posted - 2009.02.12 21:20:00 -
[67]
It will make this expansion another "large groups only expansion".
Was going to post something similar. As with all low and deep 0.0 assests, the major alliances move in and dominate it pushing the remaining 99.98% of Eve out and unable to access them. Seems everything has been based on releasing to "controlled" space where as the major un-touched areas (Crap low sec space and some empire touching 0.0) gets more Veldspar. I originally concieved the thought of playing Eve to be able to enjoy some of the things the Over sized POS bowling alliances brag about and hoard but found out if I even wanted to look upon an Arkonor roid I must submit to being treated like a used tampon in one of the mega alliances.
How and what if any (doubtful) are the plans to allow access to more diverse items in Eve to the NPC and solo players? If there isnt a thought placed into fixing this gross imbalance 2 things will happen..... 1: Mega alliances will control the flow of items didctating the market prices to fit thier needs, thus making it impossible for anyone not associated with them unable to enjoy the expanded game play that THEY are paying for. T3 ships what?? Dont think so 2: There will never be a chance in hell for a corp or even small alliance to ever take space other then the crap regions that are no better then systems like Todaki. Thought the idea was to allow open markets and player based decisions but seems its a restricted market (mega alliance controlled) and thier decisions. Take the reactions hack.....Mega alliances held most the ability to make them and the moons needed to mine....Of course that still was not enough...HAX. Now market is empty as the mega trillionaires are buying it all on spot before it can even be seen.
Without a power rebalance or a more expanded deployment, this will be no differnt then playing the same ole game as before.
Give us the chance they all have daily. Show us some favortism for once. Let us play in the sun a few days and actually be able to say "yeah i mined 10 mercoxit roids today". Other then that we all will just be Veldspar miners and will never be able to build nothing without submitting.
Worm Holes??? Gas Clouds?? Will be a mega alliance picnic the seconds they are discovered.
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Kayn Otar
Samurai Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.02.12 21:46:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Kayn Otar on 12/02/2009 21:47:43 Please Reduce POS Requirements
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
- Hybrid Polymers are made from reacting fullerenes with regular minerals using a new reactor/silo
- Hybrid Components are manufactured from polymers and Sleeper Salvage in a component assembly array or assembly line
- Subsystems and hulls are manufactured from hybrid components in a new subsystem assembly array or outpost assembly lines
- Subsystem and hull blueprints are reverse engineered from ancient relics. Reverse engineering works in a similar way to invention does. Reverse engineering research lines are available in a new experimental laboratory mobile lab or outpost research lines
Feedback is most welcome!
So we have a three (and a half) step process. Awesome. Step 1 - POS only. Fine, makes sense in a way. Similar to T2.
Step 2 - NPC Station OK. Good, similar to T2 components.
Setp 2.5 - Reverse Engineering, POS Only. Eh? All other research can be done in a station; are mobile laboratories somehow more advanced than station labs? You should be able to use existing Invention labs for this, there is no shortage of them and they serve a similar purpose. No need to add unnecessary complexity.
Step 3 - POS only. What?! I can build the components in a station but I have to take them back to a POS to assemble them into subsystems? This stage, especially, should be available in stations. By this stage the amount of effort put into the process is so great and the components so valuable that keeping them in a POS for days or weeks would be a huge risk. I'm afraid that if this stays, subsystems would only be created (with any frequency) in deep alliance space, where the risk is lower and balances the reward.
-edit- Grammar
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Cailais
Amarr 0utbreak KrautbreaK
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Posted - 2009.02.12 21:53:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Kravek Edited by: Kravek on 12/02/2009 18:59:43
Originally by: Cailais
Avoid these pitfalls (especially point '1') and T3 production should be ok and wont become a failed feature like combat boosters.
Boosters production is not "failed feature".
It is very lucrative... if you know how to carry out entire operation. This rule will apply too T3 production for sure.
Im talking really about how commonly adopted the feature is. Now clearly you have managed to find a market and make some ISK from it - and all power to you, but I think you'll agree your market isn't all that massive, boosters just aren't that commonly used or indeed available. (I've manufactured and traded them myself so I am speaking from a degree of experience).
Not, to an extent thats fine, for boosters, and probably ideal for yourself as your now a specialist in that field. But with T3 ships we really aught to be seeing quite a few of these ships used - if only for the man hours that has been invested by CCP in doing the art work, models and so forth in producing both them, and the W-Hole system.
So if T3 is only as common as booster use amongst the player base, I thin CCP will have to revisit it.
C.
Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
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Kabeil Blackdawn
The Shadow Order New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.02.12 22:11:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Paranoid MindZ
Worm Holes??? Gas Clouds?? Will be a mega alliance picnic the seconds they are discovered.
What makes you say that? I think that WH-space is the best way to have mostly uncontrolable space without doing instancing for each wormhole. Its not like big alliance will send all their pilots to guard WH-space. To chaotic to move gang around. Their might be a couple of corp that completely move to one WH system and stay there, but I don't think that will be common. Most people will want to take the same WH they took to get in, so as to not get lost.
As for manufacturing, its true that their is a lot of pos usage. Do we know if its only the poses needed for the reaction of gas into polymer that will require to be in low sec? Seem to recall seeing that somewhere...
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Kravek
Lamb Federation Navy C0VEN
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Posted - 2009.02.12 22:16:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Cailais
So if T3 is only as common as booster use amongst the player base, I thin CCP will have to revisit it.
Ofc you are right. I see your point now.
Im sure that CCP will ensure that T3 production will be balanced. I cannot imagine that T3 ships will be used by so small group of people. Even if they will be not cheap.
Boosters are boosters... not many knows how useful they are. But we talking about entire new line of ships. They wont vanish in beloved void
Yours friendly Combat Boosters supplier!
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Tharrn
Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.12 23:00:00 -
[72]
Hmm... I think small corps stand a very good chance to get their share of the resources in W-Space - I know plenty of Empire systems that are barely used. Find a wormhole there and you'll have your private playground unless the system happens to be connected to somewhere else.
In fact I think all the whining is totally premature as we haven't even tested wormholes and W-space. Pre-whining must be related to pre-nerfing :P
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Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be. |
Sendinal Cortere
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Posted - 2009.02.12 23:14:00 -
[73]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
- Hybrid Polymers are made from reacting fullerenes (new types of gas found in wormhole space) with regular minerals using a new reactor/silo
moon minerals or 'roid minerals
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Louella Dougans
Amarr Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine
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Posted - 2009.02.12 23:17:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Sendinal Cortere
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
- Hybrid Polymers are made from reacting fullerenes (new types of gas found in wormhole space) with regular minerals using a new reactor/silo
moon minerals or 'roid minerals
minerals from asteroids. Zydrine and such, yes.
Mother used to disapprove of my lifestyle |
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2009.02.12 23:54:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Sendinal Cortere
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
- Hybrid Polymers are made from reacting fullerenes (new types of gas found in wormhole space) with regular minerals using a new reactor/silo
moon minerals or 'roid minerals
Asteroid minerals in the current implementation. Tech III is a new branch of tech so not dependent on existing resources besides minerals and of course players time. Personally I call it "hybrid tech" as its a combination of ancient and current technology but that is Chronotis's own terminology as calling it tech III can be confusing.
General Comments on the use of starbases and low sec
There is currently only one activity which requires low sec operation and that is the polymer reactions. The subsystem assembly array and experimental laboratory can be anchored in high sec, the components can be made anywhere other components are made, so if you wish to remain in high sec then you have a large range of possibilities in getting a slice of the "hybrid tech/tech III" pie. From the resource gathering phase and organising wormhole ops after discovering a nearby wormhole to buying materials of the market and processing them in reactors to building the final subsystems and hulls.
The nature of wormhole space (the fact there is so many wormhole systems) and the main resource motivation to go there other than ISK and asteroid ore is the fullerenes, sleeper salvage and reverse engineering components. It may well be even possible to dwell within wormhole space which will be interesting and pretty cool almost having a system to yourself.
All in all, I would say what you have is a great opportunity to try something entirely new and access areas many of you consider out of reach as is the proverbial daunting wall of low and null sec entrances.
Edit - please keep this thread to feedback on Tech 3 production and not devolve into low sec/ resource distribution debate as we need to keep this thread focused but I wanted to briefly comment on it! (Bad Chronotis! )
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Erovicious
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Posted - 2009.02.13 00:01:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Boma Airaken Are you ****ing serious? Or do I start with how much of an utter ***** you are for not even trying? What are you contributing to the cluster**** that is currently lowsec?
Boy have I been shown the light by an adolescent that swears to attempt to give a post some semblance of validity. Bravo!
The rest of your diatribe isn't even worth commenting on.
Back to the subject at hand. We've read many posts that have sent a very clear request that T3 be something new and separate from the POS grind and potential moon-material monopoly we have today. There are others in this thread that think the same, or similar.
With further contemplation, I believe I would be perfectly satisfied if the entire process for creating them required W-Space. Now that would be something unique and challenging. With the announcement of the skill point/symbiotic relationship between the pilot and the ship, it brings on an even more complex and unique approach - and thematic.
I think many of us hoped for something *completely* unique in T3, separated in everyway from the existing framework (other than balance of course). You're close, and I think its still possible.
One final thought.
Originally by: Boma Airaken Put up or shut up.
Pretty sure my daddy can beat up your daddy! Neiner! Neiner! Rofl. Grow up.
*Ero*
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Counterparty
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Posted - 2009.02.13 00:55:00 -
[77]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis fullerenes fullerenes
/me expects endless confusion with Fullerides.
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Shadow's Caress
Dark Skullz Empire Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.02.13 03:44:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Shadow''s Caress on 13/02/2009 03:46:05
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
I am also interested in your opinions on the concept itself and not just the numbers balancing. Generally the nature of wormhole space (there is so much of it) means the resources will be common and diffusely gathered and returned to the market. The 3 step process is overall easier than T2 but wormhole op logistics could potentially make it a much more difficult combined with the amount of materials needed to manufacture a complete ship.
That is exactly correct. I know that ccp doesn't like to balance based on price, but you know how the eve market works. If it is near impossible to make, someone will make it but for some insane markup that the item really shouldn't cost. Look at T2 rigs for example. Not hard to make, but the availability of parts is so slim that the price of the items is insane. Nobody uses t2 rigs unless they're spending billions on a ship. For the most part, there is no variation in t1 vs t2 rigs, and nobody cares about calibration because nobody uses t2 rigs. This could have been fixed by increasing the drop rate of t2 salvage.
Now lets apply this to T3 production. First of all, you have a normal mineral price and normal mineral logistics. We've dealt with that before, we can deal with that again. Add to that the fact that we have to mine in space that we aren't guaranteed to be able to even leave and that we have no idea where in eve we will appear once we do leave, and you've just made the whole idea of even mining in w-space no fun. Mining is a profession, and is based on calculated risk and reward, not random risk like PvP. Add to that the fact that not only do we have to mine in w-space, but we also have to rat in w-space. We can't just skillfully avoid the sleepers. Then after all of that, we have to find the materials to reverse engineer and we have to do the reverse engineering. Simply put, the price of these ships is going to be somewhat proportional to what the players doing this stuff want to pay themselves. If this stuff is near impossible to do in the first place, the prices for whatever matierials they get is going to be extreme. Add to that the sheer amount of very skilled player work that is going on and you have some ships that are horribly unbalanced as far as price and performance. I could easily see these things going for something like what capital ships sell for, but with stats somewhere near what a HAC has. In fact, I make capital ships with lots less effort than it would take me to make one t3 ship.
This system is wildly out of balance as far as a ratio of work + risk input versus reward.
Making T3 ships expensive is one thing. Making them damn near impossible to build is just mean.
Edit: oh, and the kicker is that once you finally do build your sweet T3 ship and it eventually gets blown up, you loose skillpoints. Personally, I don't even plan on participating in T3 or wormhole space at all.
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Sendinal Cortere
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Posted - 2009.02.13 05:55:00 -
[79]
So I did some quick data mining and all this is speculation.
All the Fullerites are 10.0 m3 so you get one every cycle(30 seconds) per harvester. Without Laser Optimization, I'm not sure it works for Gas Harvesters.
By looking at all the reactions. If you wanted to make one batch of each polymers you would need
c320 -100(1) c540 -150(1) c84 -200(2) c72 -205(2) c32 -380(2) c28 -380(4) c60 -425(4) c70 -480(5) c50 -920(5)
and
Zyd 95(4) Mega 170(4) Iso 400(1) Mex 600(1) Pye 800(1) Trit 1000(1) Nox 2100(4)
(number) indicates number of reactions the material is used in
Taking a look at the Fullerite numbers and knowing that W-space quality is basically 3 'tiers' then I'm guessing:
Low Quality - Empire Linking c50 c60 (uncommon) c70
Medium Quality - Lowsec Linking c28 c32 c72 (uncommon)
High Quality - 0.0 Linking c84 c540 c320 (uncommon)
of course there may be some overlap but I doubt you will jump Empire to a W-space with c320 as a common occurrence
Only 6 of these reactions include only one type of fullerite. Those six only use c50, c60, and c70. Which I'm guessing is common from the numbers above, so these are 'low end' Polymers.
Low End Polymers Fullerine Intercalated Graphite (mex-600 c70-100: Batch-100) Fullerite Amarids (Pye-800 c50-250: B-100) Gallium Selenide (Trit-1000, c50-200: B-100 Lanthanum Metallofullerene (Nox-200 c70-80: B-80) Methanofullerene (Iso-400 c60-125: B-100) Scandium Metallofullerene(Zyd-20 c70-100: B-80)
Medium End Polymers (use two Fullerites that are Low-Med Quality) Benzyl Aminofullerenes (zyd c60 c70 b80) C3-FTM Acid (zyd c50 c72 b60) Fullero-Ferrocine (nox c70 c28 b60) Graphene Nanoribbons (nox c50 c60 b80) Nanobud Polymers (Mega c60 c28 b60)
Numbers ommited as I'm tired and it's alot of typing
High End Polymers (Medium to High Quality) Carbon-86 Epoxy Resin Nanotori Polymers (batch 60 so may be med quality others are 20) Plutonium Metallofullerene Polyfullerene Condensate PPD Fullerene Fibers
This is first glance and I know changes might happen and I can't find the bp's for the hybrid components to compile the usage of the polymers and cross reference blah blah blah. Wild speculation is over for tonight
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Horchan
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.13 06:58:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Sendinal Cortere Stuff
I agree with your initial number crunching how the polymers are spread through the reactions. It is indeed an interesting distribution to say the least.
I'm not sure exactly on the distribution of them through wormhole origin. I'm personally not going to delve into theories on that, since anything I say will probably be wrong.
However, I'd like to propose a different way of organizing the reactions, which is first mainly by the amounts of their outputs, which interestingly enough sorts them fairly well.
First we have the "A" group: (100 output) * Fullerine Interlaced Graphite (C-70) * Fullerite Aramids (C-50) * Gallium Selenide (C-50) * Methanofullerene (C-60)
Then the "B" group: (80 output) * Lanthanum Metallofullerene (C-70) * Scandium Metallofullerene (C-70) * Benzyl Aminofullerene (C-70, C-60) * Graphene Nanoribbons (C-50, C-60)
Then the "C" group: (60 output) * Fullero-Ferrocene (C-70, C-28) * Nanobud Polymers (C-60, C-28) * C3- FTM Acid (C-50, C-72) * Nanotori Polymers (C-50, C-84)
And finally the "D" group: (20 output) * Carbon-86 Epoxy Resin (C-28, C-72) * Polyfullerene Condensate (C-84, C-32) * Plutonium Metallofullerne (C-32, C-540) * PPD Fullerene Fibers (C-28, C-320)
A few things of note - All of "A" group only require one fullerite, as well as 2 of the 4 of "B" group. Also, All of "A" and "B" groups only require C-50, C-70, and C-60. It's not until the "C" group that you start to see the 'intermediate' fullerites come into use (C-28, C-72, and C-84). In the "C" group we see half of the uses for these intermediate fullerites, with the other half being in the "D" group. Speaking of the "D"s, this is where we see the 'advanced' fullerites come in force (C-32, C-320, and C-540), only with Carbon-86 Epoxy being the odd one out with not requiring at least one of these.
So in a way I take back what I said about not theorizing of the cloud distribution. Looking at this a bit closer, I'd say:
Linked from highsec: C-50, C-70, C-60 Linked from lowsec: C-28, C-72, C-84 Linked from 0.0: C-32, C-320, C-540
With the addendum that these are the linked space where these start to show up, much like certain asteroids don't show up until a certain sec status. Also, there's a bit of a color pattern to the "clouds" in their icons: C-50 and C-60 are Red, C-70 is Blue C-28 and C-84 are Yellow, C-72 is Green C-320 and C-540 are White(-ish), C-32 is Orange
True, the odd one out in each group may be misplaced, but that's a bet I'll just have to make.
And yes, there are many, MANY things not seeded that are needed to better understand the whole T3 manufacturing chain. We can only hope a patch comes out soon that adds them so we can better comprehend what this is all used for. =P ---
DesuSigs |
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Sendinal Cortere
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Posted - 2009.02.13 09:01:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Sendinal Cortere on 13/02/2009 09:04:06
Originally by: Horchan Better stuff
I was leaning towards a 4 tier classification myself after pondering and your's fits perfectly. Looted.
I was originally looking at it from a cost to produce and the single fulleride reactions can be done cheapest with a medium tower so naturally I grouped them together. The double fulleride reactions can also be done in a medium tower by adding another biochemical silo, but it'll be bursting at the seams with little room for defense or services.
Note: The new reactor and silo aren't on the planner so I used subs with the same fuel requirements.
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.02.13 09:18:00 -
[82]
The blueprints of Hybrid components have been already seeded?
If yes, can you tell me a couple of names? I might be dumb, but I have not yet been able to find them. Shame on me. :-)
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.13 10:05:00 -
[83]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
I am also interested in your opinions on the concept itself and not just the numbers balancing. Generally the nature of wormhole space (there is so much of it) means the resources will be common and diffusely gathered and returned to the market. The 3 step process is overall easier than T2 but wormhole op logistics could potentially make it a much more difficult combined with the amount of materials needed to manufacture a complete ship.
A point I find problematic i the concept is how mining/gas harvesting will work.
From what little we know of the Sleeper NPC barge mining seem useless. I doubt any barge can survive even the light spawns. It is doubtful even exumers can survive them long enough for defender to clear the NPC swarm or switch aggro to themselves.
Then we need to gather gas clouds, with no specialized ship for that and a module that require turret slots to be usable.
So essentially the best WH mining/gas harvesting ship will be a BS or a command ship. But it will be a non dedicated ship (so no bonus for mining/gas harvesting) without offensive capability and maybe even a gimped tank.
The net effect seem to be a low rate of resources gathering.
Add that the harvesting ship need some (probably several) escort ship with offensive capability dedicated to kill the sleeper swarm and the cost in manpower needed to gather the gas and eventually mine the asteroids seem out of proportion.
Add the point that all the people dedicated to harvesting the gas and protecting the harvester will not be in position to search for the archaeological sites where the best stuff should be and you have a very manpower intensive activity with a low quantity return.
It seem hardly the way to produce something that is meant to be more than extremely rare.
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Javonite
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Posted - 2009.02.13 10:34:00 -
[84]
I agree with the posters who think that it requires way too little skill to make a successful manufacturer or researcher.
However I wouldn't suggest making a bunch of level 5's the minimum required level to build tech 3. It's sufficient if you ensure that higher skill levels are worth their while. For instance you could let Material Level of reverse engineered BPC increases according to skill level.
All in all, I'm happy with the proposed manufacturing process, and I think it's the most exciting patch since invention.
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El'essar Viocragh
Minmatar Meltdown Luftfahrttechnik
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Posted - 2009.02.13 11:16:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Venkul Mul So essentially the best WH mining/gas harvesting ship will be a BS or a command ship. But it will be a non dedicated ship (so no bonus for mining/gas harvesting) without offensive capability and maybe even a gimped tank.
A Rokh with either 8 DCML II or 5 GCH I is probably the way to go if you mine the traditional minerals in W-space too (if you have the ability to refit in W).
But that uses up cargo when you find a route to K-space.
I know I will use stuff that I can get in K-space only to fill up my cargo once I secure a route back. Every other scrap of cargo will be filled with W-exclusive toys. |
FlameGlow
Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.13 14:02:00 -
[86]
Please think of the poor explorers and damage Hybrid interface slightly with each invention job. Otherwise it's value will quickly diminish and it won't be worthwhile to make those, like it now is for all non-ship interfaces. |
Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.02.13 15:34:00 -
[87]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Tharrn Edited by: Tharrn on 12/02/2009 15:53:14 Materials to test the reactions - not seeded New Gases - not seeded Reverse Engineering labs - not seeded Wormholes - still collapsed
This thread is a bit pointless until the above points have been fixed :P
I am also interested in your opinions on the concept itself and not just the numbers balancing. Generally the nature of wormhole space (there is so much of it) means the resources will be common and diffusely gathered and returned to the market. The 3 step process is overall easier than T2 but wormhole op logistics could potentially make it a much more difficult combined with the amount of materials needed to manufacture a complete ship.
Depends on lots of things. Basically id imagine w-space (one "pocket") should give me enough resources to build one t3 ship (or at least 2-3 components for it). And THEN prices will oscillate around 50-100m/component piece.
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Myyona
Minmatar Ataraxia Pharmacies
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Posted - 2009.02.13 17:24:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Myyona on 13/02/2009 17:24:41 Hm, so I get now Gas Cloud Harvesters needs to be even MORE accessible to the public?
They are, in fact, not that hard to acquire (even for a solo player like me) if you put EFFORT into it. And you have been able to buy the Gas Cloud Harvesting skill a pirate faction stations in no sec space for a long time now.
Btw. I enjoy being able to do stuff solo than others can't manage even when being in a group. |
Steve Thomas
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Posted - 2009.02.13 17:34:00 -
[89]
on top of all the effort needed to extract T3 mats you will have the inevitable hit on T1 mineral and Rig salvag gathering due to people diverted from mining-Ratting-Dronehunting-Mission running-Salvageing-plexrunning-exploring to hunting down Sleepers and harvesting gases.
you had mentioned elsewhere that 40% of minerals come from melting loot. I have to wonder what the impact of this ends up being with people diverted from whats currently the base resource gathering
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Joram McRory
eXceed Inc. Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.02.13 18:06:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Joram McRory on 13/02/2009 18:08:05
Originally by: Paranoid MindZ
It will make this expansion another "large groups only expansion".
Was going to post something similar. As with all low and deep 0.0 assests, the major alliances move in and dominate it pushing the remaining 99.98% of Eve out and unable to access them.
I'm not sure where you are gtting your figures from. AFAIK CCP released stats last year saying that ~25% of charracters were in 0.0. I've been living in 0.0 for years and have met a lot of people. 2 Accounts is the norm, and a lot have more than that. For nearly everyone out in 0.0 there are 2 to 3 times as many empire alts in empire. So at least 50% of chracters belong to a 0.0 player.
As for the OP - this sounds ok without having tried it yet but as someone else said WH stability will prove to be the key - if they persist in one location for a couple of weeks this seems viable, if they jump around every day or so it is going to be very very hard!
Joram
My Photography site |
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.02.13 18:44:00 -
[91]
I tried to have a closer look at the industry side of tech 3. I understand the concept, it seems not to be bad on the first glance - mind you, the concept in general, not the details.
I tried to figure out what stuff would be necessary to build a Loki hull. But even with that simple task I failed.
I see that Loki blueprint says 1 fullerene interlaced sheets, 10 metallofullerene plating, 10 nanowire composites.
But how to get them? There is not a single hint about them. No blueprints, no reactions, no nothing.
I am really ****ed off, how can we test things if there is nothing to work with??? And the market is STILL not fixed! I thought you guys wanted our feedback?! How can we give feedback when nothing is available?
THERE ARE ONLY 3 WEEKS LEFT!
And the **** market still does not work on Sisi. Nothing works!
*takes a deep breath and goes oommmmmm*
Well ...
There three groups of gas, nine types of gas in total.
Group 1: C50, C60, C70 Group 2: C28, C72, C84 Group 3: C32, C320, C540
There are 16 reactions in total, sorted into four groups.
1. One type of gas from group 1 necesary, output 100 units per batach 2. One or two types of gas from group 1 necessary, output 80 units 3. Two types of gas from grop 1 and 2 necessary, output 60 units 4. Two types of gas from group 2 and 3 necessary, output 20 units
Without knowing how many of these outputs are necessary for the next building steps, it is impossible to evaluate further.
Just one thing. If in the building process all of these outputs are necessary, it means that all gas is necessary also. That means HUGE and I mean really f***g huge logistics are necessary.
I have serious doubts about these many different gases.
Building basic tech3-materials (polymers) means then that 16 reactions are running. If you make the material requirements on the following blueprints (stuff like Nanowire Composites) high, then the tech3 will become insane expensive. If you make the materials requirements low, then there is incentive to search for gas because it is only necessary in few quantities.
The whole concept that there are 9 different types of gas - 3 abundant, 3 normal and 3 rare distributed - might sound interesting in theory, but it won't work in practise.
However, it is just an assumption that these gases are distributed unevenly, that C320 and C540 is rarest and C50 most common. Can we get clarification about gas rarities?
And again, please please, can we have these wormholes on the overview that we can warp there directly without scanning them out first? There is so much to test about these wormhole space and so little time left!
Without more data it is impossible to say if this whole supply chain is good or bad. The initial post looked like there was only one gas type
About gas harvesters. Please do not seed any BPO! That would ruin many explorers and will cancel a lot of fun. Instead drop 10-run (or higher runs) bpc into exploration sites in enough quantities. This way you can satisfy multiple goals with one action.
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KingCappo
Seigers of Doom
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Posted - 2009.02.13 18:56:00 -
[92]
Any ETA as to when the new mobile labs will be released on Sisi?
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Horchan
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.13 21:14:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Gnulpie Stuff
I'm glad you've come to similar conclusions as I have (and thus validating that I'm not entirely insane, just mostly). While studying this all while waiting for things to be seeded, I've come up with a list of things we REALLY need to know:
* What is the distribution and rarity of these gas clouds?
* What is the distribution and rarity of the hybrid salvage?
* What are the actual material requirements for all the hybrid components, as well as all the subcomponents and base hulls?
Until we have all the relevant materials seeded (Hybrid Component BPO's, Experimental Mobile Labs or R-E slots in stations, stats for Subcomponent BPC's, etc), we're basically stuck with speculating on all of this. |
Kabeil Blackdawn
The Shadow Order New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.02.13 22:16:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Gnulpie There is not a single hint about them. No blueprints, no reactions, no nothing.
The polymer reaction are on the market.
The component bpos are on the server as: (subsystem type(offensive, propulsion...)) component (number(1,2,3)) blueprint
write 'compoenent' in chat, select it, 'link type' and select the component bpo you want. The generic component seem to be for frame construction, but only number 3 is working.
You can already make cost estimate by speculating on the price of gas and salvage. |
Horchan
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.14 00:23:00 -
[95]
Edited by: Horchan on 14/02/2009 00:25:16 Ok, looking at the Subsystem Component blueprints, and with the current blueprints for the core T3 ships, it looks like it will take about 2783 C-50, 604 C-70, 762 C-60, 330 C-28, and 3 C-72 (give or take a bit) to manufacture a core T3 ship.
Note that by the distribution patterns we theorized on, this would mean that over 90% of the fullerite needed to make a core ship is of the "common" variety. I haven't had a chance to look at the subsystem blueprints (or even find them yet), so I can't comment on their fullerite composition/ratios.
However, as long as our hopeful assumption of which gasses are common/uncommon/rare, so far things are looking good.
Edit: I might just be missing it right now, but there appears to be no use for the 'Modified Fluid Router' and 'Neuroptical Input Matrix' Sleeper salvage. Perhaps they'll be put to use in the Subsystem construction? |
Dream Weaver
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Posted - 2009.02.14 00:49:00 -
[96]
Any chance that a mobile refinery that can refine salvage will be added? As it is now salvage will need to be hauled from WH space to Known space to refine then hauled back to WH space to use in Reactions if setting up a POS in WH space. Even one that can only be used in WH space not known 0.0 space would be great. |
Horchan
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.14 01:45:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Dream Weaver Any chance that a mobile refinery that can refine salvage will be added? As it is now salvage will need to be hauled from WH space to Known space to refine then hauled back to WH space to use in Reactions if setting up a POS in WH space. Even one that can only be used in WH space not known 0.0 space would be great.
You've never been able to refine salvage. Also, salvage isn't used in the Polymer reactions, minerals and fullerite gas are used. The new salvage will be used to make the subsystem components (and possibly the subsystems themselves, haven't had a chance to look yet).
If you mean module and ammo you've looted while there, yes, you'll have to haul it back to a station if you wish to reprocess them. Living in W-space isn't meant to be easy. |
Dream Weaver
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Posted - 2009.02.14 02:04:00 -
[98]
Poor choice of words. I ment loot. Right now loot from ratting can't be reprocessed in a mobile refinery. What I am asking for, is a mobile refinery that can reprocess the loot. So the minerals from it can be used for the Hybrid Polymers.
I can understand not being able to refine loot in 0.0 space at a POS but hopefully we will have a method of doing so in WH space.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.14 10:11:00 -
[99]
Originally by: El'essar Viocragh
Originally by: Venkul Mul So essentially the best WH mining/gas harvesting ship will be a BS or a command ship. But it will be a non dedicated ship (so no bonus for mining/gas harvesting) without offensive capability and maybe even a gimped tank.
A Rokh with either 8 DCML II or 5 GCH I is probably the way to go if you mine the traditional minerals in W-space too (if you have the ability to refit in W).
But that uses up cargo when you find a route to K-space.
I know I will use stuff that I can get in K-space only to fill up my cargo once I secure a route back. Every other scrap of cargo will be filled with W-exclusive toys.
Sure, but while a 5 gas harvester Rokh will be a fine ship, with even some leftover combat capacity, its cargo space will be pitiful.
Gas harvesting seem to be one of the most important parts of WH activity. Without the gases the other WH space items are useless, and the required quantities are large.
In one of the other post:
Originally by: Horchan
Ok, looking at the Subsystem Component blueprints, and with the current blueprints for the core T3 ships, it looks like it will take about 2783 C-50, 604 C-70, 762 C-60, 330 C-28, and 3 C-72 (give or take a bit) to manufacture a core T3 ship.
I have read that the required gases for the core hull of a T3 ship is 4.483 units (not m3). With 5 gas harvesters that is 448.5 minutes of gas harvesting. 7 hours and a half.
Beside the low probability (I suppose) of finding all the gas clouds in one location and discarding the rarity, that alone will push the base hull cost at 75 millions (a bare minimum of 10 million/hour). And you could get better return mining 0.0 minerals (if present) in the WH space than mining gas clouds, the exclusive thing of WH space.
Hypothesizing a more reasonable pretence of at least 20 millions/hour the gases needed for the hull will cost 150 millions before any processing to produce the advanced materials actually used. So a core hull selling at 200 millions will be cheap.
Add the 5 basic components at a mere 20% of the hull cost (40 millions each) and the whole ship will cost 400+ millions.
The cost of the core hull will have a huge impact on the value of the other components in my eyes. If the core hull is very costly the other components risk to be worth little as there will be a low number of total ship around, if the core hull cost little the add ons could be priced higher as there will be more demand.
I suggest to keep the special material requirement for the core hull low (at most 5 hours to gather them, so about 100 millions) with the ad on sections requiring proportionally more material and work. That way the total quantity of T3 ship will be higher and the market more active. With the aim for a complete ship cost of 400 millions this route will push each section value at 60 millions.
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2009.02.14 14:48:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Lord Fitz on 14/02/2009 14:49:15
Originally by: Joram McRory Edited by: Joram McRory on 13/02/2009 18:08:05
Originally by: Paranoid MindZ
It will make this expansion another "large groups only expansion".
Was going to post something similar. As with all low and deep 0.0 assests, the major alliances move in and dominate it pushing the remaining 99.98% of Eve out and unable to access them.
I'm not sure where you are gtting your figures from. AFAIK CCP released stats last year saying that ~25% of charracters were in 0.0. I've been living in 0.0 for years and have met a lot of people. 2 Accounts is the norm, and a lot have more than that. For nearly everyone out in 0.0 there are 2 to 3 times as many empire alts in empire. So at least 50% of chracters belong to a 0.0 player.
I know where you're not getting your stats from, and that's not from CCP. NINE percent, that's 9% of the eve characters are in 0.0 space. That's players were logged in a snapshot. That means you're off by 41% and the poster you quote is only off by less than 9%.
That you could try and claim otherwise when in Jita you find more pilots than you can find spread across typically any 5 0.0 regions... well... madness. Just look at the players in space on the map. I've lived in 0.0 for many years and I can't see how you could logically claim this.
Of course I totally disagree with the other things those players were saying. It most certainly isn't a 0.0 players only expansion. One that is designed to get more people to take more risks, sure, but that's good for the game.
It's also going to help lowsec some as well ;) (that's where thirteen (13%) of people reside.). The other 76% of people (rounding) are in highsec. Quite clearly there are many more risk-adverse or casual players in highsec than there are in lowsec. The last patch was fairly involved in highsec with the Orca. There's nothing wrong with promoting lower security space, and in this case, it promotes small group colonisation of the space, not 'large groups only' given the mass limit will make it harder (though not impossible) for larger groups to hold this space. Taking and securing it will require more effort than simply dropping a capital fleet every time something gets attacked.
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Marlenus
Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.02.14 14:58:00 -
[101]
I am just old enough to remember when HACs were fairly new and cost hundreds of millions of ISK -- and ISK was more rare and precious then.
There was an enormous amount of sentiment (from folks who couldn't afford to fly the stuff, and from some who could) that no cruiser was worth that kind of money, and that HACs would always just be a frivolous toy for the rich.
The judgment of history proved that to be wrong, but it took a while -- measured in years, not months.
History is about to repeat itself, if T3 ships prove to have a compelling role after the novelty wears off.
In the shorter run, I expect to see a lot of barter as people swap materials to supplement their incomplete supply chains. The formal T3 market will be the playground of the rich and impatient for quite awhile. ------------------ Ironfleet.com |
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2009.02.14 16:59:00 -
[102]
The original post has been updated to reflect the current status of singularity 79298.
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Mo Li
Infinite ISK.
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Posted - 2009.02.14 17:39:00 -
[103]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
The subsystem assembly array ... can be anchored in high sec
This is a change from what you previously announced no?
Also, when can we expect the seeding of the experimental labs?
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Horchan
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.14 18:11:00 -
[104]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Current Singularity Status - 79298
- The material requirements for reactions and the blueprints are ready for feedback
- The material sources should be available soon when wormhole space opens, however as testing requires; QA or Bughunters may spawn the materials so you can test the individual steps.
Well, assuming our hypothesis on the distribution of the new fullerite gas types is at least somewhat accurate, the distribution for the Polymers looks well designed; a good ratio of "abundant/uncommon/rare" fullerite gas. In my opinion the mineral requirements are inconsequential.
The same holds true for the Subsystem Component requirements, at least on the Polymer (and thus fullerite gas) requirement. Still unsure on the Sleeper salvage aspect, as we haven't had a chance to pew pew those and see what we get, how much we get, and what seems to be the "trit bars" of the new salvage.
However, all of this still needs to be compared to the actual build requirements for the Subsystems and Ship Hulls. If the current 1/33/33 component requirement is accurate for the base ship hulls, then so far I say they look decently balanced. Most of the fullerite gas needed to build them is from the "abundant" varieties of C-50/70/60, with less than 10% from the "uncommon", making the base hulls fairly simple to build overall, which is good. If there were an excess of subcomponents and a shortage of base hulls, T3 would have been in trouble from the start. I'd need to look at build requirements for the subsystems to make a more educated analysis and feedback on them.
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Known Issues
- The skill requirements for reverse engineering an ancient relic are not listed in the infowindow
- The hull relics require advanced starship engineering datacore/skill
- The Datacore - Defensive Subsystem Technology requires the wrong skill
- Experimental Laboratory mobile lab starbase structure is not seeded on singularity
I realize it's now the weekend, but is there any ETA when these will bet seeded/added? I'm really itching to test the reverse engineering and see what kinds of "success"es we get from them. This will also, in my opinion, affect the balance of this whole juggling act. ---
DesuSigs |
Horchan
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.15 20:45:00 -
[105]
Ok, a bit more in detailed analysis of the Subsystem Components and their gas composition:
* ALL components require at least two of the three Abundant gasses; which two varies on the component, and some require all three. C-50 seems to be the most used of these; in components that use it, they average 39% C-50 composition. C-70 is technically used in more components, but in smaller quantities, only averaging 14% of the composition of the components that use it. C-60 tails this group, being both the least used of the Abundant gasses, and used in smaller quantities; it only averages 12% in the components that use it, and is only used in 2/3rd of the components. I won't be looking at the Abundant gasses beyond this.
* Defensive components: Each one requires a different Uncommon gas, which adds for diversity. For two of them ("Integrated Def" and "Reinforced"), this is the only other gas needed, making for reasonable build requirements. The only difficult component requirement would be for the "Defensive" component, which requires the Plutonium polymer, which needs C-32 and C-540, two Rare gasses. I'm assuming this will be the 'advanced' defensive component for the defensive subsystems.
* Electronic components: "Electrochemical" is the easiest here to build, only needing a bit of C-28 to finish off it's manufacture. Then comes "Neurovisual", which requires both C-28 and C-72 to finish, but no Rares, and seems to be the 'middle' component (of note is that Neurovisual requires the most C-72 to build out of all components). The 'advanced' looks to be "Reconfigured", again needing Plutonium polymer, and thus C-32 and C-540.
* Engineering components: It's a bit more difficult to look here, since all three components require at least one Rare gas. However, if I follow the pattern that the Plutonium polymer requirement is for the 'advanced' component, then I can guess that "Fulleroferrocene" is it (it also requires the least amount of Uncommon gas). A step down from that, we have "Optimized" which uses the PPD polymer, which needs C-320 and an obscene amount of C-28. And lastly is the "Integrated Therm" which uses Polyfullerene polymer, which needs C-32 and a some C-84.
* Hull components: All three have rather low gas requirements, with all three using C-28, and only the "Fullerene" needing more (C-72). The "Fullerene" also seems to be special as it's the only one that requires the Control Node salvage to make, and with the current build requirements for the T3 hulls, it looks like only one of these is needed per ship.
* Offensive components: These follow a very similar pattern to the engineering components; all three require at least one Rare gas, one requires Plutonium polymer ("Emergent"), one requires PPD polymer ("Adaptive"), and one requires Polyfullerene polymer ("Warfare"). Otherwise, they all need some C-84 in some form or fashion.
*Propulsion components: "Recalibrated" appears to be the easiest of the three to build, only needing C-28 and C-72 in addition to the Abundant gasses. "Thruster" adds a bit of complexity by needing all three Uncommon gasses, but also not needing as much Abundant gasses, and so not having too high of build requirements. Finally comes "Warp", which matches the 'advanced' component pattern of needing Plutonium polymer, and thus C-540.
Overall, it looks like the engineering and offensive components are one of the more difficult subsystem components to build, with all of them requiring at least one Rare gas, and decent amounts of Uncommon gas, with only vague ways to differentiate the tiers on them. These two component groups also are the only place PPD polymer, and thus C-320 is used.
Otherwise, almost all other 'basic' and 'middle' components only require moderate to small amounts of Uncommon gasses and appear to have very reasonable manufacture costs. The 'advanced' components all follow the pattern of needing Plutonium polymer, and will hopefully be used sparingly in the basic subsystems. ---
DesuSigs |
fightingblind
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Posted - 2009.02.15 22:44:00 -
[106]
Is there a full list of skills and items that are being released so we don't have to search for them?
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.02.16 12:40:00 -
[107]
Edited by: Pottsey on 16/02/2009 12:41:01 Assuming the S is to imply more the one and a single Fullerene is without the S and more then one Fullerene is Fullerenes then there is a major plot hole here. Basic Fullerene or Fullerenes when you have two or more is common throughout Eve used as superconductors and in the biotech industry. You don't need to go into Sleeper space to get it.
"Fullerene is a molecule composed entirely of carbon. It is usually spherical in shape and can be harmful to living organisms. Basic Fullerene is used as superconductors and in the biotech industry. Complex Fullerene is an advanced version of basic fullerene that only the Jovians know how to produce. It is much harder than basic fullerene and is indestructible by all conventional methods used by the other races and thus useless in the current technological environment. The force involved in breaking it into shards must have been staggering."
Now we have Fullerenes "Fullerenes are a new type of harvestable gas."
So is Fullerene a gas or solid usually spherical in shape? Is Fullerene rare or common? If the two are different surely they should have a different name. Fullerene or Fullerenes when there is more than one is already common throughout Eve in the storyline. I already have lots of Fullerenes in my hanger and have had lots for years. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Shirley Serious
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.16 13:16:00 -
[108]
still no fullerenes or experimental labs seeded on markets.
Yes. Yes, I am. |
Horchan
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.16 19:12:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Pottsey So is Fullerene a gas or solid usually spherical in shape? Is Fullerene rare or common?
I was actually getting confused on the matter as well, but then I realized what I had been reading as "Fullerene C-50", etc, actually read "Fullerite C-50". Thus, all the gasses we're supposed to find in W-space are called Fullerites.
What this also means is that the Devs are mixing up their own terms in the Dev blog, which mentions Fullerene gas instead of Fullerite gas. ---
DesuSigs |
Sendinal Cortere
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Posted - 2009.02.16 22:16:00 -
[110]
Fullerenes are the individual molecules c60 is a molecule comprised of 60 carbon atoms arranged pretty much like a soccer ball
Fullerites are solids composed of fullerenes.
So it's fullerene gas harvested into fullerite solids
a c60 molecule is about 1nm in size and the fullerite harvested is 10m3 so that's 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 fullerenes per cycle.
It's been awhile since I had to know this stuff though.
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2009.02.18 13:22:00 -
[111]
With the latest sisi build, the production chain has undergone a significant change from the first iteration. The number of materials has been narrowed down as feedback and testing showed the effort needed to acquire such a wide variety of items was far above what was desired in sheer man hours and difficulty of acquiring the materials. The biggest effect was at the subsystem manufacturing stage where the number of different components needed was reduced. As a consequence, the component manufacturing and polymer reactions were also changed.
Feedback would be appreciated on the latest test build.
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Kathryn Dougans
Amarr B. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm
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Posted - 2009.02.18 17:51:00 -
[112]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis With the latest sisi build, the production chain has undergone a significant change from the first iteration. The number of materials has been narrowed down as feedback and testing showed the effort needed to acquire such a wide variety of items was far above what was desired in sheer man hours and difficulty of acquiring the materials. The biggest effect was at the subsystem manufacturing stage where the number of different components needed was reduced. As a consequence, the component manufacturing and polymer reactions were also changed.
Feedback would be appreciated on the latest test build.
The reactions now all seem to require 1 mineral, and 2 fullerenes, instead of before, where before there were some that only required 2 materials. This simplifies POS construction, and means 1 reactor setup can be repurposed fairly easily to the different reactions. I think this is good, for smaller scale producers.
Subsystem blueprints seem easier to understand.
Overall, i think this looks good.
Don't ask me about the cows. |
Reluthan Eldom
Really Bad Eggs
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Posted - 2009.02.18 19:48:00 -
[113]
Experimental labs not being seeded no longer appears in the known issues list, so I assume they've been seeded somewhere now. Are they only in FD- or does anyone know where else they're available?
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Sendinal Cortere
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Posted - 2009.02.18 20:51:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Kathryn Dougans
The reactions now all seem to require 1 mineral, and 2 fullerenes, instead of before, where before there were some that only required 2 materials. This simplifies POS construction, and means 1 reactor setup can be repurposed fairly easily to the different reactions. I think this is good, for smaller scale producers.
Subsystem blueprints seem easier to understand.
Overall, i think this looks good.
How does this simplify POS construction? This is not snark. I'm really asking. with 2 material reactions, from my understanding, you need the reactor and three silos(silo, biochem, <reactor>, polymer) with three you need an extra biochemical silo. I'm not that up on POS management though so if I'm missing something obvious, pls forgive, I want to learn.
As for the changes it really depends on what is on the other side of those ever so shy w-holes. If low quality w-space has only one type of dead common gas in it then this is a change for the worse. If the likelyhood of finding two or more gas clouds, of differing types, is high even in the empire linking w-space. Then I think it's an overall plus.
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Horchan
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.18 20:54:00 -
[115]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis With the latest sisi build, the production chain has undergone a significant change from the first iteration. The number of materials has been narrowed down as feedback and testing showed the effort needed to acquire such a wide variety of items was far above what was desired in sheer man hours and difficulty of acquiring the materials. The biggest effect was at the subsystem manufacturing stage where the number of different components needed was reduced. As a consequence, the component manufacturing and polymer reactions were also changed.
Feedback would be appreciated on the latest test build.
Oh God. Where to start. =P
Let's see... I can definitely understand decreasing the number of different Reactions, Subsystem Components, and Slavage. Before, there was indeed a very large variety needed to make them all. Overall, I think many of the changes were in the right direction. I can't get in game right now to check again, but I would still want to see what the actual component cost to build the Subsystems and Hulls are before I completely agree with the changes.
However, I'm not so keen on the idea that all the Components require at least two or three of the exact same salvage. Unless 'Electromechanical Hull Sheeting', 'Powdered C-540 Graphite', and 'Thermal Diffusion Film' drops like candy, the fact that that they're needed in a 5:1 ratio to any other salvage will mean they will be a bottleneck. To be honest, I liked the way that salvage was distributed before, and if a similar distribution could be done using the reduced variety of salvage, I think it will be much better. ---
DesuSigs |
Reluthan Eldom
Really Bad Eggs
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Posted - 2009.02.18 21:41:00 -
[116]
Quote:
How does this simplify POS construction? This is not snark. I'm really asking. with 2 material reactions, from my understanding, you need the reactor and three silos(silo, biochem, <reactor>, polymer) with three you need an extra biochemical silo. I'm not that up on POS management though so if I'm missing something obvious, pls forgive, I want to learn.
As for the changes it really depends on what is on the other side of those ever so shy w-holes. If low quality w-space has only one type of dead common gas in it then this is a change for the worse. If the likelyhood of finding two or more gas clouds, of differing types, is high even in the empire linking w-space. Then I think it's an overall plus.
POS construction is simplified since all reactions now have the same silo + 2 biochem silo + poly reactor + poly silo requirements. Now we don't need to worry about POS setups optimized for 1 gas reactions and setups optimized for two gas reactions. Rotating reactions becomes more straight forward as a result.
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royal killer
Amarr Shadows Of The Federation
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Posted - 2009.02.19 08:36:00 -
[117]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Updated 18th February
Known Issues
No known issues
Lies! there is no such thing! --------------------
*ding ding!*
Wrangler: Hello and w
*ding ding!*
Wrangler: ...damn nanowhiners. |
Sigras
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Posted - 2009.02.20 00:19:00 -
[118]
have the new BPO's for the new fullerides been seeded yet?
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Sigras
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Posted - 2009.02.20 01:10:00 -
[119]
Originally by: royal killer
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Updated 18th February
Known Issues
No known issues
Lies! there is no such thing!
Can we get some info on the unknown issues then?
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Protheroe
UMEC
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Posted - 2009.02.20 03:38:00 -
[120]
TIII Price Estimates
Gas Harvesting
Assuming the skill bonuses remain the same as they are on SiSi now, Gas Harvesting V will allow the use of a maximum of 5 Gas Cloud Harvesters per ship. With the new T2 Harvesters, that will mean a maximum yield of 9000m3, or 900 fullerenes per hour.
Assuming a minimum income from harvesting fullerites in Wormhole space of 18Mil per hour (about 150% of the income from Veldspar at current prices), gives a base price of 20,000 ISK per fullerene (not too far off the cheapest sell orders for gas clouds on TQ).
Polymers
Taking 20,000 ISK as a minimum value for all fullerenes (price will obviously vary depending on rarity, demand and other factors, but these aren't known well enough yet to speculate) gives the following costs for polymers (including minerals at current prices):
- Benzyl Aminofullerene: 507,500.00 ISK
- C3-FTM Acid: 2,120,000.00 ISK
- Fullerene Intercalated Graphite: 66,966.67 ISK
- Fullerite Aramids: 100,040.00 ISK
- Gallium Selenide: 60,040.00 ISK
- Graphene Nanoribbons: 269,066.67 ISK
- Lanthanum Metallofullerene: 133,933.33 ISK
- Methanofullerene: 100,450.00 ISK
- Scandium Metallofullerene: 202,500.00 ISK
Hybrid Components
TIII component prices are difficult to estimate as the abundance of the different types of salvage and artifacts needed for reverse engineering BPCs are not known. However, minimum prices based on the polymer ingredient costs above are:
- Electromechanical Interface Nexus: 3,685,066.67 ISK
- Emergent Neuroptical Interface: 11,769,866.67 ISK
- Fullerene Intercalated Sheets: 2,435,333.33 ISK
- Integrated Defensive Matrix: 4,040,000.00 ISK
- Integrated Thermoelectric Core: 3,685,066.67 ISK
- Metallofullerene Plating: 1,300,760.00 ISK
- Nanowire Composites: 800,480.00 ISK
- Neuroprotectant Injector Array: 6,038,150.00 ISK
- Temporal Recalibration Unit: 10,102,000.00 ISK
- Thruster Drive Cores: 3,285,066.67 ISK
- Warfare Computation Core: 4,040,000.00 ISK
Subsystems
Based on the above component prices, excluding salvage and BPC costs, minimum subsystem prices are:
- Defensive Subsystems: 55,580,786.67 ISK
- Electronic Subsystems: 53,051,223.33 ISK
- Engineering Subsystems: 78,488,893.33 ISK
- Offensive Subsystems: 102,468,063.33 ISK
- Propulsion Subsystems: 44,678,980.00 ISK
There are currently no differences in material requirements between the races or the three variants of each subsystem.
Based on the above component prices, the minimum cost of a TIII hull, without the cost of reverse engineering, manufacturing and sleeper salvage ingredients, is 133,377,066.67 ISK.
Adding together the subsystem prices gives a minimum cost for the fullerene component required to build a complete Strategic Cruiser of 467,645,013.33 ISK.
Some ideas that could affect Fullerene costs
- A specialised Gas Harvesting ship
- A Gas Harvesting bonus for one or all exhumers, or another existing ship
- Gas Harvester Upgrades
- Gas Harvester Implants
- Gas Harvester Specialisation skills
- Different volumes for Fullerenes
- The actual gas clouds could be more like raw ores which refine into various quantities of Fullerenes, or can be reacted/processed to produce them
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Horchan
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.20 05:32:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Protheroe Stuff
Hm. Interesting analysis from the monetary aspect.
One thing that I was pondering is how the T2 gas harvesters will work. They pull 15m3/cycle, but gas clouds are 10m3 each. Does this mean it will pull in one unit the first cycle then two units the second?
Anyhow, I was thinking of the gas requirements in terms of man-hours. Using five T1 gas harvesters and the current requirements, it would take 48.67 man-hours to harvest the fullerites to make one T3 cruiser; using T2 gas harvesters it would take 32.45 man-hours. Not too bad until you consider that this is under 100% optimal conditions and perfect fullerite cloud compositions to react into exactly the right amount of polymers to manufacture into the right components to build the subsystems and hull. The point doesn't evade me that this isn't meant to be easy. Just pointing out details.
Next comes the balance of the fullerites. Looking at current build requirements, there doesn't appear to be a "more to less" spread on any of the fullerites like there is in the mineral build costs of normal items. The two sets of exceptions are C320/C540, which are on average used less, and C50/C60, which are used more. This either implies that all the other fullerites are going to be similarly distributed, or that there will be a shortage of the "rarer" of the fullerites that are commonly used, namely C84 and C32, which we've (hopefully incorrectly) presumed to be of medium rarity.
I must also again voice my concerns that unless 'Electromechanical Hull Sheeting', 'Powdered C-540 Graphite', and 'Thermal Diffusion Film' Sleeper salvage drops like candy, they too will possibly be a bottleneck for component construction. The first iteration of the salvage build costs looked much more balanced than the current iteration. ---
DesuSigs |
Pringlescan
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.20 07:49:00 -
[122]
If it ends up costing over 1b it better be able to solo a dread because thats about how much an insured dread costs to lose. If it isn't anywhere near that level ccp just messed up big time spending a whole bunch of effort on something that .1% of the eve population will ever see or use (boosters and black ops battleships anyone) just saying that either these need to be able to deal 1500 dps from 150km away to be even considered for pvp at that sort of price. I will be very disappointed with ccp if it ends up being just 20% better then the t2 version of the ship and costing 10 times as much.
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Carniflex
Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.02.20 07:54:00 -
[123]
Interesting cost analysis. So approx 500 mil for whole ship based on gas cloud materials alone. Plus the sleeper salvage and reverse engineering expenses. That is a lot for cruiser class hull, but then again if they are good enough the price is not an issue - at least for collectors and mission bears.
For PvP I think they will end up in the same bag as black ops with that pricetag. Not bcos of being useless, but bcos of price / effectivity relation.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.20 11:15:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Protheroe TIII Price Estimates
Gas Harvesting
Assuming the skill bonuses remain the same as they are on SiSi now, Gas Harvesting V will allow the use of a maximum of 5 Gas Cloud Harvesters per ship. With the new T2 Harvesters, that will mean a maximum yield of 9000m3, or 900 fullerenes per hour.
Assuming a minimum income from harvesting fullerites in Wormhole space of 18Mil per hour (about 150% of the income from Veldspar at current prices), gives a base price of 20,000 ISK per fullerene (not too far off the cheapest sell orders for gas clouds on TQ).
Very good work, thank you.
Mi only doubt is this part: "Assuming a minimum income from harvesting fullerites in Wormhole space of 18Mil per hour".
Personally, seeing the risk, delays and probable problems the minimum income requirement for man/hour of work in WH space is in the 30 million range. That would put my income on the same range of mining high end in 0.0 space and a bit better than running missions.
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Shadowsword
Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.02.20 18:16:00 -
[125]
Thanks for that analisys, very usefull.
Since gaz harvesting should be in the same range of profitability than mining rare, at least, that will put the cost of a complete T3 ship around the 700M range, counting only gaz. Salvage could easily double that cost, and then there's the issue about finding the bpcs and the random chances degrees of success with them. And the corp doing all the production chain will need a decent profit for the production itself.
That mean a market price of several billions for those ships, as things are right now... ------------------------------------------
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Sophie Daigneau
CAPITAL Assistance in Destruction Society GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.20 18:20:00 -
[126]
Experimental labs are now seeded on the market, but Ancient Relics are not. Can we get the Ancient relics seeded so we can start testing the reverse engineering process?
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Reluthan Eldom
Really Bad Eggs
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Posted - 2009.02.20 18:31:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Sophie Daigneau Experimental labs are now seeded on the market, but Ancient Relics are not. Can we get the Ancient relics seeded so we can start testing the reverse engineering process?
Ancient Relics have been on the market for at least a week...
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Sophie Daigneau
CAPITAL Assistance in Destruction Society GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.20 18:49:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Reluthan Eldom
Originally by: Sophie Daigneau Experimental labs are now seeded on the market, but Ancient Relics are not. Can we get the Ancient relics seeded so we can start testing the reverse engineering process?
Ancient Relics have been on the market for at least a week...
Thanks, needed to look a little harder, found them. Running off a couple hundred rounds now.
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Reluthan Eldom
Really Bad Eggs
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Posted - 2009.02.20 19:43:00 -
[129]
The suckiest thing about T3 building may be that experimental labs have only 1 reverse engineering slot and no other slot types.
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Rivqua
Caldari Omega Wing R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2009.02.20 23:24:00 -
[130]
could the resulting BPC's have many runs, so that wouldn't matter just as much?
/Riv /Riv
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.02.20 23:40:00 -
[131]
I have noticed that the hybrid tuner data interface is destroyed by reverse engineering jobs. Is that intended?
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Kathryn Dougans
Amarr B. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm
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Posted - 2009.02.21 01:23:00 -
[132]
Edited by: Kathryn Dougans on 21/02/2009 01:27:10 Edited by: Kathryn Dougans on 21/02/2009 01:26:17
Originally by: Reluthan Eldom The suckiest thing about T3 building may be that experimental labs have only 1 reverse engineering slot and no other slot types.
It's only a 1 hour job, so you can have a fair amount queued up on the lab, and it doesn't take long to offline it to run a different lab in it's place if you want.
Originally by: Rivqua could the resulting BPC's have many runs, so that wouldn't matter just as much?
/Riv
Thus far, I've got 3 run ship BPCs.
Originally by: Space Wanderer I have noticed that the hybrid tuner data interface is destroyed by reverse engineering jobs. Is that intended?
I asked and an ISD guy said to bugreport it, so i'm guessing that it's probably not intended.
I reverse engineered 9 hull parts so far. 3 intact hulls, 3 malfunctioning, 3 wrecked. Got 2 Legion bpcs, of 3 runs each, and 7 Amarr ship engineering datacores, which seems to be one of the potential outcomes of the process. "Failed but got 1 datacore". Another tester reported that Intact Armour nanobots can fail to produce anything.
Don't ask me about the cows. |
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2009.02.21 14:30:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Space Wanderer I have noticed that the hybrid tuner data interface is destroyed by reverse engineering jobs. Is that intended?
Yes, I realise it is slightly confusing as we have kept the naming conventions the same as the mechanics are similar but also very different. I am probably going to change it such that the decryptors are consumed as well. I like consumption, creates demand :)
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2009.02.21 14:35:00 -
[134]
The original post has been updated to comment on changes in the latest build. The main thing that will be changing in the next update is the subsystem and hull material requirements have been altered to make the subsystems much cheaper and the hulls more expensive. The intention being that you can better afford to have multiple subsystem variations in your hangar.
Polymer volumes have also been changed so the harvesting rate for the more common gases should be faster.
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Reluthan Eldom
Really Bad Eggs
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Posted - 2009.02.21 14:50:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Kathryn Dougans
Originally by: Reluthan Eldom The suckiest thing about T3 building may be that experimental labs have only 1 reverse engineering slot and no other slot types.
It's only a 1 hour job, so you can have a fair amount queued up on the lab, and it doesn't take long to offline it to run a different lab in it's place if you want.
That's not the point. Queueing things up takes up my character's lab slots without parallelizing production. Currently I can run all 11 of my character's lab slots with 2 mobile labs doing 5x invention in each one and using the spare slot for a copy or ME operation those labs give me as well. If I queued up reverse engineering then not only would I have to deal with the suck of 1 reverse engineering slot per lab (and that lab ahs the same POS fit requirement as the existing labs which provide much more utility, I might add) I'd also be decreasing my total throughput by a factor of 11 and losing all my t2 productivity.
If CCP wants t3 to be used as naything more than hangar candy by very wealthy individuals this issue of throughput is going to need to be resolved. In a reasonable large POS setup I can get something like 60 invention slots plus ME, PE, and copy that come along free for the ride and have everything I need to turn t2 components into t2 ships, or I can get 12 reverse engineering slots and have to anchor another tower for the subsystem arrays I need to turn t3 components into ships.
I think there is an argument to be made that t3 requires less POS infrastructure in the lead-up to components since for t2 I need a lot of moon mining POS, 2 stages of reactions, and then component building versus t3 I only need one reaction stage and no moon mining before component building, but if this is the argument that is beign made and the 1-slot experimental labs are essentially trying to make t3 take as many POS as t2 does then I think that's a mistake given how much people in general hate managing tons of POS.
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Verys
The Black Ops Black Core Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.21 14:53:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Verys on 21/02/2009 14:55:03
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Space Wanderer I have noticed that the hybrid tuner data interface is destroyed by reverse engineering jobs. Is that intended?
Yes, I realise it is slightly confusing as we have kept the naming conventions the same as the mechanics are similar but also very different. I am probably going to change it such that the decryptors are consumed as well. I like consumption, creates demand :)
So just a question is this going to lead to hybrid tuner interfaces AND the decryptor being destroyed in the reverse engineering process?
If so i think reverse engineering is going to be very very expensive since there will be very high demand for the tuner interfaces. If we compare it to the current game mechanics yes the current tuner interfaces are cheap but this only because there is no demand for t2 rig invention (and the fact that they sell for less then if you sold the components seperately).
I would rather see an increase of the ammount of datacores used up in reverse engineering than this.
Also keep in mind with this that the price for keeping up a pos with these labs can turn out quite expensive in fuel costs since not everyone owns a caldari outpost.
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Reluthan Eldom
Really Bad Eggs
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Posted - 2009.02.21 15:30:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Verys
Also keep in mind with this that the price for keeping up a pos with these labs can turn out quite expensive in fuel costs since not everyone owns a caldari outpost.
Yes, this. This is sort of what I was getting at with the 1-slot lab comment above, too. The cost of reverse engienering is pretty high when you take all this into account, but perhaps it's intended that serious t3 production require outposts? That would be interesting since it's the reverse of the current situation where POSes are required for the high-end and even when outposts can do the same functions they don't scale up in volume nearly as well. How many reverse engineering slots does a Caldari outpost have?
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Kayn Otar
Samurai Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.02.21 17:36:00 -
[138]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Space Wanderer I have noticed that the hybrid tuner data interface is destroyed by reverse engineering jobs. Is that intended?
Yes, I realize it is slightly confusing as we have kept the naming conventions the same as the mechanics are similar but also very different. I am probably going to change it such that the decryptors are consumed as well. I like consumption, creates demand :)
How about a "Runs" counter, like with blueprint copies? They are still consumable, but it would relieve some of the demand pressure. Heck, you could even do that with the normal data interfaces, and increase the success rate of invention. That would certainly make invention less frustrating.
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Verys
The Black Ops Black Core Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.21 20:34:00 -
[139]
Edited by: Verys on 21/02/2009 20:33:59 What I have encountered in reverse engineering so far:
- With intact items I have only reproduced 1 BPC (on 12 jobs) while I got a lot of datacores back. This is a really low number. What I actually would like to see is a basic success rate depending on the damage of the component and skills for bringing the success rate up. Say like this:
Intact component - 100% success rate Damaged component - 80% success rate Wrecked component - 60% success rate
Skillwise Reverse engineering - +2.5% bonus to success rate per lvl (max 10% bonus) "Component" Subsystem Technology - 1% bonus to success rate per lvl (max 5% bonus) This leaves damaged components up to a max rate of 95 and wrecked up to 70
I feel that this would end up in a balanced research process which still incorporates basic chance.
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Rivqua
Caldari Omega Wing R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2009.02.21 20:41:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Verys Edited by: Verys on 21/02/2009 20:37:46 What I have encountered in reverse engineering so far:
- With intact items I have only reproduced 1 BPC (on 12 jobs with intact components) while I got a lot of datacores back. This is a really low number. What I actually would like to see is a basic success rate depending on the damage of the component and skills for bringing the success rate up. Say like this:
Intact component - 100% success rate Damaged component - 80% success rate Wrecked component - 60% success rate
Skillwise Reverse engineering - +2.5% bonus to success rate per lvl (max 10% bonus) "Component" Subsystem Technology - 1% bonus to success rate per lvl (max 5% bonus) This leaves damaged components up to a max rate of 95 and wrecked up to 70
I feel that this would end up in a balanced research process which still incorporates basic chance.
What kind of skills are required for reverse engineering at the labs ? Any chance to get a list?
/Riv /Riv
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.02.21 23:59:00 -
[141]
Edited by: Space Wanderer on 22/02/2009 00:00:03 I played a bit with reverse engineering.
Apparently all the blueprints I have obtained (about 10) are all for "XXX subsystem 3" (tried with weapon subsystem and engineering subsystem for the moment). Am I missing something in the reverse engineering process or is there some random generator stuck at number 3?
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Kathryn Dougans
Amarr B. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm
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Posted - 2009.02.22 00:38:00 -
[142]
Edited by: Kathryn Dougans on 22/02/2009 00:44:52
Originally by: Reluthan Eldom That's not the point.
If you did have 11 labs running, could you support the output from them with 11 manufacturing slots?
Originally by: Space Wanderer
Apparently all the blueprints I have obtained (about 10) are all for "XXX subsystem 3" (tried with weapon subsystem and engineering subsystem for the moment). Am I missing something in the reverse engineering process or is there some random generator stuck at number 3?
Hmm, also got bpcs for subsystem 3. Interesting. What skills did you have?
Originally by: Verys
What I have encountered in reverse engineering so far:
- With intact items I have only reproduced 1 BPC (on 12 jobs with intact components) while I got a lot of datacores back. This is a really low number.
Interesting. What systems were you doing? With hull sections, I got slightly more bpcs from intact than malfunctioning and wrecked. But so far, for other things, wrecked and malfunctioning has given bpcs, while intact hasnt. Intact gave more datacores when failing though.
Only 30 hull sections (10 of each), 30 power cores (10 of each) done so far though, so it's a tiny sample.
Don't ask me about the cows. |
Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.02.22 00:51:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Kathryn Dougans
Originally by: Space Wanderer
Apparently all the blueprints I have obtained (about 10) are all for "XXX subsystem 3" (tried with weapon subsystem and engineering subsystem for the moment). Am I missing something in the reverse engineering process or is there some random generator stuck at number 3?
Hmm, also got bpcs for subsystem 3. Interesting. What skills did you have?
Various. For gallente engineering systems: engineering subsystem tech: 2 mechanical eng: 4 reverse eng: 2
For caldari offensive systems: offensive subsystem tech: 2 plasma physics: 3 reverse eng: 2
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Verys
The Black Ops Black Core Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.22 02:02:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Kathryn Dougans Edited by: Kathryn Dougans on 22/02/2009 00:44:52 Interesting. What systems were you doing? With hull sections, I got slightly more bpcs from intact than malfunctioning and wrecked. But so far, for other things, wrecked and malfunctioning has given bpcs, while intact hasnt. Intact gave more datacores when failing though.
Only 30 hull sections (10 of each), 30 power cores (10 of each) done so far though, so it's a tiny sample.
I was doing thrusters but new results (about an hour ago) gave me 3 bpc's out of 6 sections.
Although I can recall in an older blog/post they wanted to remove the chance base out of tech 3 and only give players an award chance so there is a big chance to obtain subsystem 1 blueprints but a small chance to obtain subsystem 5 blueprints. This also leads to a 100% succes rate on any reverse engineering. I actually support this because other factors, such as aquiring all the correct materials (fullerenes, salvage) and the production steps, will make up for a high ISK price itself.
Also as stated by previous comments I only have had subsystem 3 bpc results.
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Pytria Le'Danness
Placid Reborn
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Posted - 2009.02.22 13:22:00 -
[145]
Edited by: Pytria Le''Danness on 22/02/2009 13:24:21 Starting to test polymer reaction right now. Aside from getting the distinct feeling that whoever designed the POS mechanics never had to set up a POS himself - has anyone noticed that this stuff is going to be annoying as hell?
Gasses are 10m per unit. You need two in BioChem silos, each of which holds 20k m. Thus you can put 2000 units into each. The reaction takes 100 units per cycle, depleting the silos in 20 hours.
This means someone has to babysit the POS and visit it every day (actually less than that) to keep the reaction running 24/7. Even if you take a Gallente tower that in theory doubles silo capacity (when I took my last POS down on TQ this was still bugged, I am not sure if it is atm) this means you have to drop by every two days. Who is going to be willing to do that?
Besides, the gas size more or less rules out the "Install a POS in WH space for T3 production" idea since persistent storage of fulleride gasses will take a HUGE amount of space. Granted, I don't know how much storage space the corp hangar offers, but supposedly that's needed for modules and ships.
Corporation RP channel: "PlacidReborn" |
misters Sviests
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Posted - 2009.02.22 14:08:00 -
[146]
Edited by: misters Sviests on 22/02/2009 14:08:37 I expect, reverse engineering slot can't be shared with alliance members, only with corportion members (same as invention slots). However, hope dies last. Does any tried to share reverse enginering slot with alliance members? Or may be CCP can answer?
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Horchan
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.22 17:44:00 -
[147]
Originally by: misters Sviests I expect, reverse engineering slot can't be shared with alliance members, only with corportion members (same as invention slots). However, hope dies last. Does any tried to share reverse enginering slot with alliance members? Or may be CCP can answer?
Reverse engineering requires materials, thus it wouldn't be sharable to alliance members since they can't access the corp hangars in the Experimental Lab. ---
DesuSigs |
Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.02.22 19:36:00 -
[148]
An update: I reverse engineered more subsystems. Still obtained ONLY racial XXX subsystem 3. Somebody's random generator needs a tweak, I think...
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.22 19:54:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Space Wanderer An update: I reverse engineered more subsystems. Still obtained ONLY racial XXX subsystem 3. Somebody's random generator needs a tweak, I think...
I recall readying that the decryptors would determine the module produced. Have you tried using one?
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Kathryn Dougans
Amarr B. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm
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Posted - 2009.02.22 20:04:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Space Wanderer An update: I reverse engineered more subsystems. Still obtained ONLY racial XXX subsystem 3. Somebody's random generator needs a tweak, I think...
I recall readying that the decryptors would determine the module produced. Have you tried using one?
You need the hybrid racial decryptor to do the job to begin with. It's what determines if you get Amarr, Gallente etc. blueprints.
Don't ask me about the cows. |
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Reluthan Eldom
Really Bad Eggs
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Posted - 2009.02.22 23:45:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Kathryn Dougans
If you did have 11 labs running, could you support the output from them with 11 manufacturing slots?
I suppose not given the time/run difference if the reverse engineering jobs were all successful, but likely the success chance is going to be low enough that it isn't quite that clear-cut. Besides what I generally do for tech 2 is pyramid multiple building characters on each inventing character and I'd expect to do the same (albeit with more training time required for building characters) here as well.
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Kathryn Dougans
Amarr B. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm
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Posted - 2009.02.23 01:49:00 -
[152]
just finished doing 50 intact hull sections, got 31 bpcs from them. going to look at malfunctioning and wrecked ones tomorrow. I'm thinking they have the highest chance of reverse engineering, which is probably good, because I doubt they're going to be easy to get ahold of. got 19 datacores, so every job I did got something out of it.
Don't ask me about the cows. |
Shadowsword
Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.02.23 07:24:00 -
[153]
On Sisi fullerenes are 10m3/unit.
Gaz cloud harvesters II have a 15m3 harvesting amount per cycle.
AFAIK, there is no skill, ship bonus or module to increase it to 20m3 per cycle.
About the interface being destroyed, I'm really not sure it's a good move. ressources coming from sleeper exploration sites are going to be the main bottleneck for component supply, given that sleeper spawns will be harder there. Increasing demand pressure from that source will increase still further the production price, and it's already quite huge.
Too high a production price, and your whole extension will fall flat on it's price, as players will deem the whole T3 thing, from the ships to the production to the WH exploration, not worth it's price tag, and won't use it. ------------------------------------------
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.23 08:53:00 -
[154]
intact armor bot 8x "The reverse engineering task failed but has still produced 1 units of Datacore - Defensive Subsystems Engineering" 2x "The reverse engineering task has failed and yielded you nothing." 1 3 run bpc subsystem 3 60D GTC - shattared link |
Epitrope
The Citadel Manufacturing and Trade Corporation
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Posted - 2009.02.23 10:02:00 -
[155]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Space Wanderer I have noticed that the hybrid tuner data interface is destroyed by reverse engineering jobs. Is that intended?
Yes, I realise it is slightly confusing as we have kept the naming conventions the same as the mechanics are similar but also very different. I am probably going to change it such that the decryptors are consumed as well. I like consumption, creates demand :)
I feel the need to really, strongly object to this. To be clear, I'm not talking about the reverse engineering mechanic: that seems to be fine so far. But calling a consumed material an interface is a bad idea.
Reverse engineering is fairly closely related to invention. Invention has taught us some vocabulary. Datacores are consumed, decryptors are consumed when they're used, and interfaces are reusable. Now, the 4 racial RE "decryptors" do have a certain parallel to invention decryptors, in that they both affect the output. However, I would argue that the consumed/reusable aspect far outweighs this in importance. Naming them decryptors when they are reusable is needlessly confusing and inconsistent, and I don't see any advantage to doing so.
Now, if you make the RE "decryptors" a consumed material, I'm just fine with that. If you choose to leave them as they are now on the test server, I'm fine with that too: again, I'm flexible on the reverse engineering mechanic. But if you do keep them as-is, then please, please rename them. I suggest that, for example, "Gallente Hybrid Tech Decryptor" be renamed to "Incognito Hybrid Data Interface". Put it in the appropriate group, and it'll sit happy with the other interfaces.
That still leaves the "Hybrid Tuner Data Interface", which is always destroyed. Again, I strongly believe that the indestructibility implied by the word "interface" far overshadows anything else. Breaking that implied promise is user-hostile, and it's just not necessary. Since it's always required for a reverse engineering task, and since it's always consumed, I suggest that it be renamed to "Datacore - Hybrid Engineering". I know that there isn't a Hybrid Engineering skill, and that there aren't any Hybrid Engineering research agents, but a datacore seems to be the closest match in the existing system. (You could also make an argument that it should be a decryptor, because of its consumed status. I would say that the decryptors imply variability in output, and perhaps optionality, neither of which is true of this.)
There are a few other options. You could make the HTDI reusable. This would be in keeping with the other interfaces. It'd also be perfectly natural to require two interfaces for Tech 3 (one more than you need for Tech 2). Or you could create a new group for the HTDI and rename it something else entirely. This would reflect the fact that it doesn't have a direct parallel in invention. Finally, you could keep its name the same, and rename all the current interfaces to something else. This would incur a one-time term discrepancy, but that's still much better then the ongoing tension caused by using the same word to mean two opposite things.
Sorry for the wall of text, and the nit-pickiness of my objection, but this is a real user interface problem that can be solved relatively easily before it hits Tranquility.
tl;dr: Don't buck naming conventions.
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.02.23 10:06:00 -
[156]
Feedback:
Reverse engineering chances: - Reverse engineering of 20 intact cores gave as an output 4 3-run bpcs. - Reverse engineering of 20 wrecked cores gave as an output 4 3-run bpcs of the same stuff.
Honestly I cannot see much difference between wrecked and intact stuff. Could be due to my skill levels in subsystem tech and reverse engineering, which are only two, though.
Output chances: - This is almost certainly broken. I have obtained about 15 subsystem bpcs. They are all 3-run racial XXX subsystem 3.
Seems like a RNG is stuck...
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Pytria Le'Danness
Placid Reborn
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Posted - 2009.02.23 15:02:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Epitrope ... then please, please rename them. ... ... and the nit-pickiness of my objection, but this is a real user interface problem that can be solved relatively easily before it hits Tranquility.
tl;dr: Don't buck naming conventions.
I don't think it is nitpicking, identical naming generates the expectation that behaviour is identical. I can already see the daily bug report coming in if the naming stays that way. Name it to something different, and if it is "Sleeper teddy bear disassembler". ;)
Different function, different name.
Corporation RP channel: "PlacidReborn" |
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2009.02.23 18:43:00 -
[158]
Thanks, there is a known issue with the reverse engineering output not picking correctly with it only producing the variation 3 blueprints which we are looking into.
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Kathryn Dougans
Amarr B. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm
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Posted - 2009.02.23 20:08:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Kathryn Dougans just finished doing 50 intact hull sections, got 31 bpcs from them. going to look at malfunctioning and wrecked ones tomorrow. I'm thinking they have the highest chance of reverse engineering, which is probably good, because I doubt they're going to be easy to get ahold of. got 19 datacores, so every job I did got something out of it.
in comparison, I got 16 bpcs and 34 datacores from 50 malfunctioning hull sections.
So, I'd say the quality of the relics makes quite a big difference in the chances of getting good results.
Don't ask me about the cows. |
ELECTR0FREAK
Carpe Nocte
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Posted - 2009.02.24 04:25:00 -
[160]
I can already see the next big contract scams.
FULLERENES ONLY 100K EACH!
Inside is a stack of Fullerides.
\o/
Discoverer of the Original Missile Damage Formula |
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Protheroe
UMEC
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Posted - 2009.02.25 06:01:00 -
[161]
TIII Price Estimates for Version 6.10.81170
Gas Harvesting
For continuity, I'll continue to assume a minimum income from harvesting fullerites of 18Mil per hour. This gives the following minimum values for unprocessed fullerites based on the altered fullerene volumes in the current version of Apocrypha on SiSi:
- Fullerite-C28: 16,000.00 ISK
- Fullerite-C32: 20,000.00 ISK
- Fullerite-C320: 20,000.00 ISK
- Fullerite-C50: 4,000.00 ISK
- Fullerite-C540: 20,000.00 ISK
- Fullerite-C60: 10,000.00 ISK
- Fullerite-C70: 10,000.00 ISK
- Fullerite-C72: 16,000.00 ISK
- Fullerite-C84: 16,000.00 ISK
Polymers
Some Polymers have been renamed in the new build but have the same material requirements. The above fullerite costs give the following prices for Polymers, including minerals at current prices:
- C3-FTM Acid: 1,920,000.00 ISK
- Carbon-86 Epoxy Resin: 457,500.00 ISK
- Fullerene Intercalated Graphite: 33,633.33 ISK
- Fulleroferrocene: 18,040.00 ISK
- Graphene Nanoribbons: 242,400.00 ISK
- Lanthanum Metallofullerene: 87,266.67 ISK
- Methanofullerene: 65,450.00 ISK
- PPD Fullerene Fibers: 27,540.00 ISK
- Scandium Metallofullerene: 162,500.00 ISK
Hybrid Components
Some salvage and component names have been changed, but material requirements seem to be the same. Minimum component prices based on the polymer ingredient costs above (without salvage, BPC and other costs) are:
- Electromechanical Interface Nexus: 2,360,066.67 ISK
- Emergent Neurovisual Interface: 10,174,033.33 ISK
- Fullerene Intercalated Sheets: 746,166.67 ISK
- Fulleroferrocene Power Conduits: 3,538,150.00 ISK
- Metallofullerene Plating: 380,760.00 ISK
- Nanowire Composites: 235,480.00 ISK
- Neurovisual Output Analyzer: 7,102,000.00 ISK
- Optimized Nano-engines: 2,360,066.67 ISK
- Reconfigured Subspace Calibrator: 2,265,066.67 ISK
- Reinforced Metallofullerene Alloys: 3,173,333.33 ISK
- Warfare Computation Core: 3,173,333.33 ISK
Subsystems
Each subsystem now requires just one of a few components to produce (before they required several in different quantities). Based on the above component prices, excluding salvage, BPC and other costs, new minimum prices for subsystems are:
- Defensive Subsystems: 11,637,740.00 ISK
- Electronic Subsystems: 7,260,623.33 ISK
- Engineering Subsystems: 7,260,623.33 ISK
- Offensive Subsystems: 14,940,410.00 ISK
- Propulsion Subsystems: 7,165,623.33 ISK
There are still no differences in material requirements between the three races' hulls and the three variants of each subsystem.
The Strategic Cruiser hulls now require a greater variety of components, but cheaper ones, and fewer of them. Based on the above component prices, the new minimum cost of a hull, without the cost of reverse engineering, manufacturing and sleeper salvage ingredients, is 42,721,313.33 ISK.
Adding together the costs of the five subsystes gives a new total minimum cost for the fullerene component required to build a complete Strategic Cruiser of 90,986,33.33 ISK. |
Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.25 08:50:00 -
[162]
so pos fuel cost for gases, salvage and reverse enginering will eb around 250mln together. 60D GTC - shattared link |
Pytria Le'Danness
Placid Reborn
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Posted - 2009.02.25 18:57:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Protheroe TIII Price Estimates for Version 6.10.81170
:
I've gotten similar results but did not put in exact prices for the minerals.
However while building the spreadsheet I did not find anything that uses the ancient salvage parts "Emergent Combat Intelligence" and "Jump Drive Control Nexus" or the polymer "Methanofullerene". Did I miss that or can someone confirm that these are not used? I did not check ALL racial subsystems though, but neither of these groups is directly used by the subsystems.
Corporation RP channel: "PlacidReborn" |
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2009.02.25 19:22:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Pytria Le'Danness
However while building the spreadsheet I did not find anything that uses the ancient salvage parts "Emergent Combat Intelligence" and "Jump Drive Control Nexus"
The "emergent combat intelligence" and "jump drive control nexus" is required by the emergent neurooptical interface component which is a component in manufacturing of the ship hulls.
Quote: or the polymer "Methanofullerene".
currently only required by the component "Fulleroferrocene Power Conduits"
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Pytria Le'Danness
Placid Reborn
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Posted - 2009.02.25 20:19:00 -
[165]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis ... is required by ...
Ah, thanks. Had some numbers in the wrong column. Too many numbers, not enough bree.
Corporation RP channel: "PlacidReborn" |
Ex Mudder
Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.02.25 23:56:00 -
[166]
9 types of Hybrid Polymer means 3 dedicated Caldari larges with 3 reactors each, unless you want to swap reactions and inputs around based on availability. Add one more tower to fit labs on. 8 types of hybrid polymers would only need 4 larges of any type, and each tower could fit a lab as well.
However, I can't see myself anchoring 4 towers, or modifying 4 already anchored towers, on SiSi just to test this.
Given the low sec requirements and number of towers needed, plus the sheer time you have to spend sucking Fullerines in WH space, I predict that this will end up as the logjam of T3 production.
Is there a channel on SiSi for T3 production experimentation?
Finally, will new R&D agents be seeded to provide the new subsystem datacores, or will they only be available from W space?
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Uni Zueto
Amarr Nakama Gemini Federation
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Posted - 2009.02.26 03:25:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl intact armor bot 8x "The reverse engineering task failed but has still produced 1 units of Datacore - Defensive Subsystems Engineering" 2x "The reverse engineering task has failed and yielded you nothing." 1 3 run bpc subsystem 3
I can't help but think the level of Reverse Engineering matters here just like the base skills for Invention. It might be helpful to report your results along with your Reverse Engineering skill level.
'May all your ventures be profitable' - Caldari Farewell |
Pytria Le'Danness
Placid Reborn
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Posted - 2009.02.26 10:13:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Ex Mudder However, I can't see myself anchoring 4 towers, or modifying 4 already anchored towers, on SiSi just to test this.
I did anchor a tower and the reactor as well as a lab. Something was broken as the reactor never left the "Online - starting up" phase and the link indicators (the boxes with -/- in them, no idea how they are called officially) never updated to show the amount of links regardless whether the reactor and silos were online or not while linking. Before I could test more another mirror came, wrecking my test POS.
I have now anchored another one and put a moon miner plus silo up there as well as some labs.
The moon miner is now angled towards the moon which is nice, but it seems to be 180 degrees turned. At least I always thought the prongs are the active part. Anyway, I set Silo and Miner to Dyspro and linked them. The link indicators properly changed to "-/2" and "2/-" (yay for T2 harvesters, are they going to be sseded?) but this morning the miner STILL was listed as "starting up..." and nothing had been generated.
The bug report I made 4 days ago is still unfiltered.
Corporation RP channel: "PlacidReborn" |
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2009.02.26 23:54:00 -
[169]
the reactions not currently working and the moon harvesters facing the wrong way are known issues to us and will be resolved shortly. Your bug reports should be filtered eventually and attached to those existing defects.
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2009.02.26 23:56:00 -
[170]
Originally by: Ex Mudder
Finally, will new R&D agents be seeded to provide the new subsystem datacores, or will they only be available from W space?
currently, the datacores come from w-space profession sites and reverse engineering
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Wulfnor
Caldari Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.27 01:17:00 -
[171]
Just so I am clear: The BPs for the polymer reactions will be seeded on the market with the patch. The BPCs for the components will be found in Hacking sites. The BPCs for the t3 Hulls and subsystems will be reversed engineered by consuming Artifacts "Datacores" "Decryptors" "Interface/R.A.Ms" (The last three will appear in Hacking sites or as one result of Reverse Engineering. The First will be found in Archaeology sites.)
That correct?
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Shadowsword
Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.02.27 07:33:00 -
[172]
Edited by: Shadowsword on 27/02/2009 07:36:41
Chronotis, WH gaz harvesters won't work for less than 25-30 millions/hours, at least, and gathering relics and sleeper salvage is also a very risky proposition, and will require a lot of man/hours, so they will cost a lot.
Besides, profession sites will probably be where the sleeper spawns are the strongest.
Given all this, I feel the production cost is still way too high for those ships, given the kind of stats they have.
If only collectors can afford these ships, the consequences for everything related to them are easy to guess. ------------------------------------------
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cianide pro
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Posted - 2009.02.27 12:29:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Shadowsword Edited by: Shadowsword on 27/02/2009 07:36:41
Chronotis, WH gaz harvesters won't work for less than 25-30 millions/hours, at least, and gathering relics and sleeper salvage is also a very risky proposition, and will require a lot of man/hours, so they will cost a lot.
dont forget covering the loses of ships and mods here ;)
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.27 17:59:00 -
[174]
After doing a Radar sites, we got tons of stuff, but only a single Decryptor, are they being seeded somewhere else as well?
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.28 07:37:00 -
[175]
decryptor t3 = interfrace t2 |
Pringlescan
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.01 03:28:00 -
[176]
As a basic rule i would double or triple the amount of isk/hour for work done in w-space compared to k-space due to the logistical difficulties the hard t3 rats and the way with delayed local you won't know if there is a force recon in system until he decloaks and attacks you.
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Morrigan Shaikorth
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.01 05:29:00 -
[177]
TIII Price Estimates for Version 6.10.82390 Thanks to Protheroe for the formatting and general argument layout
Gas Harvesting
Assumption held that the miner makes 18 mil ISK per hour, despite the fact that you can make upwards of 50 mil per hour mining bistot in 0.0. Protheroe did not include the floor() round down function eve uses to determine miner yield. All but 3 types of gas will yield only 1 unit with both T1 and T2 Gas Cloud Harvesters. For the purposes of this argument, T1 harvesters will be used with Gas Cloud Harvesting V.
- Fullerite-C28: 30,000.00 ISK
- Fullerite-C32: 30,000.00 ISK
- Fullerite-C320: 30,000.00 ISK
- Fullerite-C50: 6,000.00 ISK
- Fullerite-C540: 30,000.00 ISK
- Fullerite-C60: 15,000.00 ISK
- Fullerite-C70: 15,000.00 ISK
- Fullerite-C72: 30,000.00 ISK
- Fullerite-C84: 30,000.00 ISK
Polymers
The above fullerite costs give the following prices for Polymers, including minerals at current prices:
- C3-FTM Acid: 3,110,280.00 ISK
- Carbon-86 Epoxy Resin: 757,500.00 ISK
- Fullerene Intercalated Graphite: 33,633.33 ISK
- Fulleroferrocene: 50,243.00 ISK
- Graphene Nanoribbons: 402,780.00 ISK
- Lanthanum Metallofullerene: 150,520.00 ISK
- Methanofullerene: 112,910.00 ISK
- PPD Fullerene Fibers: 41,289.00 ISK
- Scandium Metallofullerene: 302,336.00 ISK
Hybrid Components
Minimum component prices including an estimated 200k per salvage item and 1 mil per Relic item, not counting POS fuel, reactor time, or reverse engineering costs:
- Electromechanical Interface Nexus: 6,728,475 ISK
- Emergent Neurovisual Interface: 21,510,442 ISK
- Fullerene Intercalated Sheets: 3,718,127 ISK
- Fulleroferrocene Power Conduits: 9,010,575 ISK
- Metallofullerene Plating: 2,370,754 ISK
- Nanowire Composites: 1,552,977 ISK
- Neurovisual Output Analyzer: 16,945,445 ISK
- Optimized Nano-engines: 6,728,475 ISK
- Reconfigured Subspace Calibrator: 6,585,985 ISK
- Reinforced Metallofullerene Alloys: 8,336,181 ISK
- Warfare Computation Core: 8,336,181 ISK
Subsystems
Subsystem costs based on the component prices:
- Ship Hull: 164,408,491 ISK
- Defensive Subsystems: 32,923,484 ISK
- Electronic Subsystems: 23,380,908 ISK
- Engineering Subsystems: 23,380,908 ISK
- Offensive Subsystems: 40,381,083 ISK
- Propulsion Subsystems: 23,238,418 ISK
There are still no differences in material requirements between the three races' hulls and the three variants of each subsystem.
See Post below for analysis and conclusions
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Morrigan Shaikorth
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.01 05:49:00 -
[178]
Edited by: Morrigan Shaikorth on 01/03/2009 05:55:18 Previously Posted Assumptions Held Here
A complete ship, which includes the hull and all 5 subsystems will cost an estimated 307 Million ISK. The subsystems alone would cost 143 Million ISK. Without salvage, relics or reverse engineering costs, that value drops to 147 Million ISK for the complete cruiser.
More realistic cost and risk/reward estimates here
The following are a series of reasons why I use the assumptions I do to offer a rough estimate of the cost of a T3 cruiser:
- Actually probing down a wormhole and testing it in person
- Diligent collection of rat salvage tables based on type and rough spawn frequency
- Difficulty and inherent danger in killing the rats
- Delayed Local reduces effective warning of incoming gankers to near zero. If they're there and they can cloak, you are most likely dead the second they notice you.
- Observed difficulty of the logistics involved in moving ships, players, harvested gas and salvage to and from W-space
Given the fact that you can make upwards of 60 mil/hour still mining with a covetor in 0.0, I will assume a player wouldn't settle for very much less than that mining Fullerites in W-space. I assume 54 million ISK is made per hour mining Fullerites. Given how difficult it is to kill the sleeper rats, and the ammounts of various salvage components recovered during testing, I will assume the salvage sells for 350,000 ISK per unit, and the artifacts cost 2 Million ISK per unit.
Holding these assumptions valid, this yields a cruiser that costs the people producing it 720 Million ISK. This DOES NOT include reverse engineering or POS costs for reactions. A rough guess on the cost of the POS reactor and reverse engineering nets you an AT COST price of 800 Million ISK.
The easiest way to reduce this would be to scale the gas volumes down, or to reduce the amounts needed by the POS reactions to produce the hybrid polymers. I look forward to seeing how CCP responds to newer observed prices.
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2009.03.01 19:38:00 -
[179]
The original post has been updated once more. The main changes that have been made or are being made and should hit sisi shortly is solidifying the difference between the hull and the subsystems such that you have one expensive hull and are able to better afford to have a few variations of subsystems available. The fullerite gas volume, polymer volume and polymer silo capacity have been changed along with the reaction output quantities. In short you will output more polymers and require less frequent silo emptying (on bulkiest polymer will be about 8 days which is inline with other silos).
We are debating adding relatively expensive low sec station reverse engineering and manufacturing assembly lines (where the costs would be higher than equivalent starbase costs) and would like feedback on that aspect.
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2009.03.02 03:10:00 -
[180]
i've just been to this "unsecured frontier trinary hub" and the warp-in pop-up had the analyzer symbol, so i'm guessing this falls under "profession site"? Originally by: devblog 623 You will need to get your hands on component blueprint copies from profession sites
what exactly would be the profession; it had spawn containers in them but i could simply open and loot them without any extra module...? (nor did i have to kill the rats ^^) - putting the gist back into logistics |
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2009.03.02 09:00:00 -
[181]
Originally by: Roemy Schneider i've just been to this "unsecured frontier trinary hub" and the warp-in pop-up had the analyzer symbol, so i'm guessing this falls under "profession site"?
Originally by: devblog 623 You will need to get your hands on component blueprint copies from profession sites
what exactly would be the profession; it had spawn containers in them but i could simply open and loot them without any extra module...? (nor did i have to kill the rats ^^)
thanks, this has been fixed internally!
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Tigaro Spiritor
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Posted - 2009.03.02 12:14:00 -
[182]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis ... We are debating adding relatively expensive low sec station reverse engineering and manufacturing assembly lines (where the costs would be higher than equivalent starbase costs) and would like feedback on that aspect.
I haven't really had the time to take part in the testing, so I've been browsing the forum and sitting on the fence whether to take part in T3.
As a part-time player who doesn't really have the time or commitment to run a POS, allowing players to research & manufacture T3 from a low-sec NPC station would encourage more solo manufacturers to take part in T3 manufacture.
This would generate a carrot-on-a-stick for travelling to low-sec more often. The logistics involved in shifting resources for manufacturing would create more traffic () and develop the low-sec raw material markets to a degree (); including other supporting markets.
Just don't price the slots so that you nullify the profit/risk ratio.
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Mr Ignitious
R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.03.02 17:29:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Morrigan Shaikorth Edited by: Morrigan Shaikorth on 01/03/2009 05:55:18 Previously Posted Assumptions Held Here
...this yields a cruiser that costs the people producing it 720 Million ISK. This DOES NOT include reverse engineering or POS costs for reactions. A rough guess on the cost of the POS reactor and reverse engineering nets you an AT COST price of 800 Million ISK...
if those prices hold true i'm gonna be very disappointed... The previous post saying 90mil for a complete was far more encouraging. Hell, i'd settle for 200m but 500+ is far too much.
Originally by: CCP Zulupark
WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
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General Xenophon
Caldari Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.03.03 05:30:00 -
[184]
Edited by: General Xenophon on 03/03/2009 05:30:56 "Polymers are made via reactions in a new reactor array which will be seeded on the NPC market. The reactions themselves have to be found in wormhole space at profession sites. They require ore minerals and fullerenes (types of gas) as inputs and output some quantity of polymers. You will need an ordinary silo and a biochemical silo as input silos and a polymer silo as output along with a polymer reactor to facilitate the reactions." (taken from the blog at http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=623)
I'm still a little unclear how the gases are harvested in WH space. Is this a new moon mineral or is it mined or taken from rats or by destroying structures? If someone could clarify for me that would be sweet! :D thanks! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= "Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men." - Boondock Saints |
Horchan
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.03 05:54:00 -
[185]
Originally by: General Xenophon I'm still a little unclear how the gases are harvested in WH space. Is this a new moon mineral or is it mined or taken from rats or by destroying structures? If someone could clarify for me that would be sweet! :D thanks!
1) Equip Gas Cloud Harvesters on your ship. 2) Warp to a Gas Cloud site in W-space. 3) "Harvest" fullerite gas. 4) ??? 5) Profit! ---
DesuSigs |
Sigras
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Posted - 2009.03.03 06:19:00 -
[186]
is it true that they're looking into doubling the output of the fullerenes reactions?
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Legionos McGuiros
Caldari Catch Twenty Two
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Posted - 2009.03.03 17:52:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Horchan 1) Equip Gas Cloud Harvesters on your ship. 2) Warp to a Gas Cloud site in W-space. 3) Be ganked by Sleepers [/quote
Fixed that for you :) The devs have said the Sleepers will be guarding the fullerite gases so its going to be a major operation
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Javonite
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Posted - 2009.03.03 21:27:00 -
[188]
I've finally managed to get the Scene2 graphics working, and been able to meddle around a bit.
Here are my thoughts on Reverse Engineering (build 82857).
Skills Overall I think it's pretty nice. What bugs me the most are the required skills, and matching datacores. Here's the current list of skills required:
- Defensive Subsystem Technology
Mechanical Engineering Electromagnetic Physics
- Electronic Subsystem Technology
Electronic Engineering Electronic Engineering
- Engineering Subsystem Technology
Mechanical Engineering Mechanical Engineering
- Offensive Subsystem Technology
High Energy Physics Plasma Physics
- Propulsion Subsystem Technology
Graviton Physics Rocket Science
- hull reverse engineering (no skill)
Mechanical Engineering Plasma Physics
The first skill after the * Subsystem Technology is the prerequisite for the subsystem skill, and the other required to reverse engineer corresponding Ancient Relic. A datacore of the second type will also be required.
So what I don't like is that Mechanical Engineering pops up 4 times as required skill, and twice as datacore. Plasma Physics twice as skill, twice as datacore. (Electronic Engineering twice as skill). While some other science skills are left out completely.
As a minimal fix, I'd like to remove one of the Plasma Physics and one Mechanical Engineering (the datacore ones).
However I'll go one step further and propose the following changes (underlined):
- Defensive Subsystem Technology
Nanite Engineering Hydromagnetic Physics
- Electronic Subsystem Technology
Electronic Engineering Electromagnetic Physics
- Engineering Subsystem Technology
High Energy Physics Quantum Physics
- Offensive Subsystem Technology
High Energy Physics (?) Plasma Physics
- Propulsion Subsystem Technology
Graviton Physics Rocket Science
- hull reverse engineering (no skill)
Mechanical Engineering Molecular Engineering
Comparing with tech II research fields, I think this makes a bit more sense. A few more skills get attention, and no datacore duplicates.
I would like to remove the High Energy Physics skill under Offensive Subsystems, but I don't really know which skill would be most fitting. (Depends on the Sleepers prefered weapon type, of which I have no clue.)
Finally, I hope that higher skill levels in the various reverse engineering skills will have a significant effect, and that the bonuses are clearly written out somewhere (e.g. in the skill description).
Other thoughts "R.A.M Hybrid Technology", should probably be named "R.A.M.- Hybrid Technolgy". It's a bit confusing that you can't build these as you can with the rest of the R.A.M.'s but way better than naming them interface.
As posted earlier in the thread, non-consumable decryptors is a bit confusing.
Bugs
- I managed to queue up reverse engineering jobs, even though I lacked the skills.
- When right clicking on an installation in Science & Industry window, choosing Install Job; the reverse engineering dialog defaults to personal hangars.
- Ancient Relic window title bar says, Talocan * instead of Sleeper *.
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General Xenophon
Caldari Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.03.03 22:27:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Horchan
Originally by: General Xenophon I'm still a little unclear how the gases are harvested in WH space. Is this a new moon mineral or is it mined or taken from rats or by destroying structures? If someone could clarify for me that would be sweet! :D thanks!
1) Equip Gas Cloud Harvesters on your ship. 2) Warp to a Gas Cloud site in W-space. 3) "Harvest" fullerite gas. 4) ??? 5) Profit!
Thanks!
And lol at the other one's edit. Didn't think it would be so 'easy' to get new gas. I may just stick to eating burritos and beans! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= "Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men." - Boondock Saints |
Morrigan Shaikorth
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.04 07:34:00 -
[190]
Edited by: Morrigan Shaikorth on 04/03/2009 07:34:00 TIII Price Estimates for Version 6.10.83409 Updated to reflect new prices on subsystems and other goodies.
Subsystem costs based on the component prices:
- Ship Hull: 151,175,914 ISK
- Defensive Subsystems: 20,233,803 ISK
- Electronic Subsystems: 28,279,358 ISK
- Engineering Subsystems: 34,550,479 ISK
- Offensive Subsystems: 20,128,719 ISK
- Propulsion Subsystems: 20,233,803 ISK
There are still no differences in material requirements between the three races' hulls and the three variants of each subsystem.
Total hull cost using new formulas, 18 mil per hour mining fullerenes, and 225k salvage cost is: 275 Million ISK
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Jack Jombardo
Amarr Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2009.03.04 09:49:00 -
[191]
Originally by: Morrigan Shaikorth Edited by: Morrigan Shaikorth on 04/03/2009 07:37:51 Edited by: Morrigan Shaikorth on 04/03/2009 07:34:00 TIII Price Estimates for Version 6.10.83409 Updated to reflect new prices on subsystems and other goodies.
Subsystem costs based on the component prices:
- Ship Hull: 138 mil ISK
- Defensive Subsystems: 24 mil ISK
- Electronic Subsystems: 18 mil ISK
- Engineering Subsystems: 18 mil ISK
- Offensive Subsystems: 29 mil ISK
- Propulsion Subsystems: 18 mil ISK
There are still no differences in material requirements between the three races' hulls and the three variants of each subsystem.
Total hull cost using new formulas, 18 mil per hour mining fullerenes, and 225k salvage cost is: 245 Million ISK
See my sig and recalculate your prices.
Originally by: CCP Nozh Where do tech 3 ships fit in?The goal has always been to have them considerably cheap, around the price of tech 2 cruisers.
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Javonite
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Posted - 2009.03.04 09:59:00 -
[192]
Build 6.10.83409 I realised that decryptors aren't tied up, once you queue up a job. Meaning you can use a single decryptor to queue up very many jobs.
I agree that decryptors should be consumed to create a demand, otherwise they'll become practically redundant once everyone has a couple.
But if you make them non-consumable, I would like to at least see them tied up during a job.
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Trimutius III
Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.04 15:15:00 -
[193]
I don't know what is already tweaked, but i found one unbalanced thing as i think. And that is:
Carbon-86 Epoxy Resin Reaction
Ok so what do we have. It need Fullerene 32 and Fullerene 320 in total it is 2000 m3 of fullerenes to produce only 8 Carbon-86.
Everything would be ok if T3 hull + subsystems did not need 54 of Carbon-86.
There are 2 unbalanced things.
First of all. Here is number how much components u need fo hull + subsystems (t3 ship to be shorter) and how much u get from reaction:
C3-FTM Acid Reaction2per reaction5needed for t3 ship Carbon-86 Epoxy Resin Reaction8per reaction54needed for t3 ship Fullerene Intercalated Graphite Reaction120per reaction48needed for t3 ship Fulleroferrocene Reaction1000per reaction1320needed for t3 ship Graphene Nanoribbons Reaction30per reaction25needed for t3 ship Lanthanum Metallofullerene Reaction60per reaction35needed for t3 ship Methanofullerene Reaction80per reaction90needed for t3 ship PPD Fullerene Fibers Reaction250per reaction295needed for t3 ship Scandium Metallofullerene Reaction40per reaction50needed for t3 ship
So what is the reason for that. Most of components are geted in 1-2 reaction (2.5 for C3-FTM that is needed only for hull, so it ok) But u'll need 7 (!!!) reactions for Carbon-86... Just why is it so?
And the second thing is connected to Fullerenes. According to what we have now on testserver we need 21000 m3 of different fullerenes (that is ok it's only 2 hours and 20 minutes of gas harvesting with 5 t2 gas cloud harvesters) But why does Carbon-86 need 13500 of that 21000 (almost 65%), that's wierd... Not counting that with such scheme u'll have price of Fullerenes 32 and 320 sky-high.
Is that made by reason or accidently??? ------------------------------------------------- I am envoy from nowhere in nowhere. Nobody and nothing have sent me. And though it is impossible I exist ¬ Trimutius |
Steve Thomas
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Posted - 2009.03.04 19:20:00 -
[194]
Originally by: Jack Jombardo See my sig and recalculate your prices.
Looks like we have yet another person who dranke the "Devs are gods" koolaid
the Developers have proven repetedly that they have no clue as to how the economy of EVE works.
They even Admited it when they hired there so called Economic guru to help them keep an eye on the eve economy.
He in the mean time has proven that he is as bloody clueless as the rest of the dev staff when he was blindsided by the POS explot that had people in MD wondering what the <<ARROW>> was happening long before someone finaly sent in a bug/exploit report that they did not simply ignore.
Now you have people who ARE NOT economist, but some of the most dedicated producers in EvE saying the math adds up this way.
I dont know about you but personaly I have a stockpile of minerals valued at ~500m isk that I will through manuracturing. I built that pile up the old fasioned way.
I mine, I produced, I sell for profit, I play the market and use buy orders to replace expended minerals including a chunk of the profits from each production cycle, run missions and mine some more. in the end my profits dont realy exist because im always havine to build up stocks and BPs and everyfreaking thing else for the next big thing that lands in my lap.
what we are telling the developers when we say the BASE COSTS for a ship will be 245 million ISK is that is what it is. and even that price is somewhat low. after all its based on 18 M/hour (wich frankly is low because you can make 40-50 m hour mining in 0.0)
look at it this way.
MINERALS ARE NOT FREE JUST BECAUSE YOU MINE THEM YOURSELF
EVERYTHING in EvE has an oportunity cost.
I literaly earn more running missions than I do mining
I earn more running missions than I do produceing
quite bluntly I would be a <<ARROW>> Idiot to try to produced a T3 ship and sell it at a price based on a prod cost of 245m per. based on the current information we have on them.
and gas miners would be <<ARROW>> idiots to take 18m/hour for the work they put in given the risks involved.
*.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.*
Stop freaking worrying about why things the developerd did 5 years and more ago no longer make sence. |
Morrigan Shaikorth
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.04 23:56:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Steve Thomas
MINERALS ARE NOT FREE JUST BECAUSE YOU MINE THEM YOURSELF
EVERYTHING in EvE has an oportunity cost.
If I wasn't such a huge selfish jew, I'd post some of my spreadsheets for the T3 production. The problem with them right now is so much of the pricing data is speculative. without a rough idea what the salvage goes for, the prices can vary wildly from a 250 mil ship to a 550 mil ship. And if you include the mining as well, that adds another layer of uncertainty to the mix. I doubt people will be willing to mine fullerides in some dangerous W-space system for the pittance 18 mil/hour would buy you when you're blown to **** by rats or ganked by recons and HACs that show up in system while you're chilling at a gas belt.
Worst case is the W-space is so difficult for the empire dwelling CNR pilots to face that they don't ever go out there, and the corresponding prices for salvage and fullerides makes the ships cost 700 mil a piece. Best case is everyone sets up semi-permanent little camps in borderland systems and just farm all the stuff they can. Then the ships will be cheap as hell, probably sub-200 mil.
It all depends on supply and demand. Until patch day, there is no way to accurately gauge the costs involved. Best we can do is make wild assed guesses and go from there.
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Steve Thomas
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Posted - 2009.03.05 00:02:00 -
[196]
Ethnic slur aside, im glad someone else in the thread bloody gets it. With all the "Tweeks" the developers have been doing its painfully obvious they dont. not if they keep insisting that the price should be roughly what a T2 ship is.
*.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.*
Stop freaking worrying about why things the developerd did 5 years and more ago no longer make sence. |
Protheroe
UMEC
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Posted - 2009.03.05 02:15:00 -
[197]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Polymer volumes have also been changed so the harvesting rate for the more common gases should be faster.
Originally by: CCP Chronotis The fullerite gas volume, polymer volume and polymer silo capacity have been changed along with the reaction output quantities.
Could you tell us how much correlation there is between fullerite volume and rarity? For example, in the current build there are three fullerites with a volume of 1m3, three at 4m3 and three at 10m3.
Will the 4m3 fullerites be approximately four times rarer than the 1m3, and the 10m3 two and a half times rarer than the 4m3, or is a higher volume just a rough indication of rarity? |
Wulfnor
Caldari Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.05 02:21:00 -
[198]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis We are debating adding relatively expensive low sec station reverse engineering and manufacturing assembly lines (where the costs would be higher than equivalent starbase costs) and would like feedback on that aspect.
Add RE labs to the existing POS lab modules and increase the amount of RE labs in a Caldari outpost. Adding to existing mods will likely decrease the rate new POS will increase. Allowing a Caldari Lab Outpost, whose major function is lab work, to have only one more lab than a maxd out POS seems silly. Go live with that. If more labs are needed, then add low sec labs.
If you cant add function to the labs that are presently there, shoot the developer that made them that way and add the low sec labs for go live.
Handle the assembly lines in the same way.
POS mods to handle the t3 functions should exist so that if one desires it can be produced outside of empire/stations but forcing things beyond first rank moon mineral/gas reactions will push Eve too far towards EpVoEs. Cripes we have web apps developed for dozens of people just so they can handle hundreds of POSs. Add functionality to the POS mods and player made outposts before you require/add more POS mods to be placed in space.
I would add that I have also noticed the Carbon86 anomaly regarding reactor cycles required and proportion of gas volume that is required for each t3 ship compared to the other polymers. Just pointing it out so you can verify it was intended.
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2009.03.05 16:43:00 -
[199]
Thanks for the feedback, the most recent changes to T3 production are some switching of prerequisite skills around on some of the technology skills and datacore requirements on some of the relics. We fixed the bug where skills were not being checked when installing a reverse engineering job.
Regarding mobile labs vs outposts - this has always been a wider concern with the ability for starbase modules to outclass outposts for multiple reasons. I am not opposed to reviewing this and the upkeep costs of mobile labs generally in the future. The caldari research outpost could be easily made a lot better IMO.
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2009.03.05 16:45:00 -
[200]
Originally by: Protheroe
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Polymer volumes have also been changed so the harvesting rate for the more common gases should be faster.
Originally by: CCP Chronotis The fullerite gas volume, polymer volume and polymer silo capacity have been changed along with the reaction output quantities.
Could you tell us how much correlation there is between fullerite volume and rarity? For example, in the current build there are three fullerites with a volume of 1m3, three at 4m3 and three at 10m3.
Will the 4m3 fullerites be approximately four times rarer than the 1m3, and the 10m3 two and a half times rarer than the 4m3, or is a higher volume just a rough indication of rarity?
It is not precise but the rarer/requires more effort fullerites are the bigger ones. This is to create a differentiation between resource locations within wormhole space.
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Javonite
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Posted - 2009.03.05 19:08:00 -
[201]
Build 6.10.83552
Reverse Engineering Bugs
- R.A.M Hybrid Technology isn't consumed. (Dmg/Job = 0%)
- Typographical error in Accept Quote window. Prints "0" in the Missing column for R.A.M Hybrid Technology, when none is missing. (Should be a blank.)
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Javonite
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Posted - 2009.03.05 20:41:00 -
[202]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis ... the most recent changes to T3 production are some switching of prerequisite skills around on some of the technology skills and datacore requirements on some of the relics. ...
If the changes were made in the last two days, they haven't propagated to the test server yet. The skill / datacore requirements for Reverse Engineering are the same in build 6.10.82857 and 6.10.83552.
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Steve Thomas
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Posted - 2009.03.06 05:51:00 -
[203]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Protheroe
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Polymer volumes have also been changed so the harvesting rate for the more common gases should be faster.
Originally by: CCP Chronotis The fullerite gas volume, polymer volume and polymer silo capacity have been changed along with the reaction output quantities.
Could you tell us how much correlation there is between fullerite volume and rarity? For example, in the current build there are three fullerites with a volume of 1m3, three at 4m3 and three at 10m3.
Will the 4m3 fullerites be approximately four times rarer than the 1m3, and the 10m3 two and a half times rarer than the 4m3, or is a higher volume just a rough indication of rarity?
It is not precise but the rarer/requires more effort fullerites are the bigger ones. This is to create a differentiation between resource locations within wormhole space.
Im hopeing the comone ones are kind of distributed to the low sec access Wspace as well as the highsec Wspace because im not entirely convinced that you will see as many empire players sticking there nose into Wspace as you seem to be expecting, after all its all literaly Negative security space(0.0 without local) but we will see.
*.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.*
Stop freaking worrying about why things the developerd did 5 years and more ago no longer make sence. |
Trimutius III
Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.06 14:51:00 -
[204]
Originally by: Steve Thomas
Im hopeing the comone ones are kind of distributed to the low sec access Wspace as well as the highsec Wspace because im not entirely convinced that you will see as many empire players sticking there nose into Wspace as you seem to be expecting, after all its all literaly Negative security space(0.0 without local) but we will see.
Erm... IT seems like there is no lowsec W-space or highsec W-space. On test there could be found systems that could have 2 wormholes to 0.0 and highsec at the same time... So you can find a wormhole from highsec to quite hard W-space system. Just not so big chance then in 0.0 sec. ------------------------------------------------- I am envoy from nowhere in nowhere. Nobody and nothing have sent me. And though it is impossible I exist ¬ Trimutius |
Saba Quiestador
Titan Industries Technology Team
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Posted - 2009.03.06 15:56:00 -
[205]
I may have missed it, but I sure hope that the objective is not for the T3 cruisers to be the same cost as T2 cruisers.
T3 cruisers are WAY better - we were playing on the test server, and had one configured to be pretty much equivalent to a Nighthawk in dps and tank, but with cruiser speed and agility.
If the T3 cruisers are the same price as T2, then why would anyone ever fly a HAC or combat recon, ever again? Or even a command ship, for that matter?
A fully-configured T3 ship *should* be 2x to 3x as much as a T2 cruiser. I think that 300-400M for a T3 ship is reasonable, and should be the target (with them coming in at 500-600M for the first month or so after the patch).
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Kytanos Termek
Caldari Darkstorm Command Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.03.06 19:58:00 -
[206]
Edited by: Kytanos Termek on 06/03/2009 19:58:38
Originally by: Saba Quiestador I may have missed it, but I sure hope that the objective is not for the T3 cruisers to be the same cost as T2 cruisers.
T3 cruisers are WAY better - we were playing on the test server, and had one configured to be pretty much equivalent to a Nighthawk in dps and tank, but with cruiser speed and agility.
If the T3 cruisers are the same price as T2, then why would anyone ever fly a HAC or combat recon, ever again? Or even a command ship, for that matter?
A fully-configured T3 ship *should* be 2x to 3x as much as a T2 cruiser. I think that 300-400M for a T3 ship is reasonable, and should be the target (with them coming in at 500-600M for the first month or so after the patch).
I have to agree. Even though a dev stated something different.
Plans change. Look how much tech 3 ships have changed game mechanic wise from their original inception. In a game like this the players and player feedback are a major part of the development process. I think ships should be powerful and expensive. and if alot more people do. CCP will probably make it so. If alot of people think they should be tech 1.5 in power and a dime of dozen. CCP will probably make it so.
This is not world of warcraft. We do not sit up and stare at CCP wondering what they will grace our useless mortal lives with. They do not ignore player feedback with inevitable plans of how exactly the game will be. They listen, they understand, they change the game, And that is what makes CCP great.
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Luigi Vercotti
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Posted - 2009.03.06 22:52:00 -
[207]
Sorry if the question has been answered, but it is not jumping out at me. Are all 9 gases available within a pocket? I know that some are more rare and less easy to find, but can they all be scanned down eventually in that single pocket?
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Trimutius III
Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.07 10:38:00 -
[208]
Edited by: Trimutius III on 07/03/2009 10:41:36
Originally by: Saba Quiestador I may have missed it, but I sure hope that the objective is not for the T3 cruisers to be the same cost as T2 cruisers.
T3 cruisers are WAY better - we were playing on the test server, and had one configured to be pretty much equivalent to a Nighthawk in dps and tank, but with cruiser speed and agility.
If the T3 cruisers are the same price as T2, then why would anyone ever fly a HAC or combat recon, ever again? Or even a command ship, for that matter?
A fully-configured T3 ship *should* be 2x to 3x as much as a T2 cruiser. I think that 300-400M for a T3 ship is reasonable, and should be the target (with them coming in at 500-600M for the first month or so after the patch).
First of all... Lossing SP with ship... Second, Legion will never be as effective as curse for Neutrilizing, so in fleet fights Curse is preferable. (So force recons and combat recons have much better bonuses for electronics) I don't know about HACs, t3 ships seems to be better then HACs. Third, Command Ship could fit Gang Links, but for those without many SP in Leadership i don't know. And at last, lets wait for 10th March and then think how it will look. All bonuses and attributes seems to be still not final...
Originally by: Luigi Vercotti Sorry if the question has been answered, but it is not jumping out at me. Are all 9 gases available within a pocket? I know that some are more rare and less easy to find, but can they all be scanned down eventually in that single pocket?
Somebody from my alliance managed to find a belt with all exsisting types of ore. (as he said, and even if there was no Mecoxit this is still quite interesting belt) So as i think why can't happen the same thing with gases? ------------------------------------------------- I am envoy from nowhere in nowhere. Nobody and nothing have sent me. And though it is impossible I exist ¬ Trimutius |
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2009.03.07 16:29:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Luigi Vercotti Sorry if the question has been answered, but it is not jumping out at me. Are all 9 gases available within a pocket? I know that some are more rare and less easy to find, but can they all be scanned down eventually in that single pocket?
no, you generally find 1-3 types of fullerite per pocket and some of the fullerites are only available in "bat country" wormhole space.
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IceAero
Amarr Shadow Company
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Posted - 2009.03.07 19:03:00 -
[210]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Luigi Vercotti Sorry if the question has been answered, but it is not jumping out at me. Are all 9 gases available within a pocket? I know that some are more rare and less easy to find, but can they all be scanned down eventually in that single pocket?
no, you generally find 1-3 types of fullerite per pocket and some of the fullerites are only available in "bat country" wormhole space.
That made my day :)
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rubico1337
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Posted - 2009.03.08 04:53:00 -
[211]
Edited by: rubico1337 on 08/03/2009 04:52:57
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Luigi Vercotti Sorry if the question has been answered, but it is not jumping out at me. Are all 9 gases available within a pocket? I know that some are more rare and less easy to find, but can they all be scanned down eventually in that single pocket?
no, you generally find 1-3 types of fullerite per pocket and some of the fullerites are only available in "bat country" wormhole space.
then the prices of the high end fullerites will skyrocket! because who in their right mind would stop there?
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Kytanos Termek
Caldari Darkstorm Command Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.03.08 07:46:00 -
[212]
Edited by: Kytanos Termek on 08/03/2009 07:46:17 Some of us will. The high price will make it worth risking capships for it. Risk vs reward my friend.
Dont worry. Im sure some of the null space pvp monkeys will do it all day long. It's the legendary fountain of isk :-p
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Holy Lowlander
Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.03.08 08:07:00 -
[213]
I for one am training my alt for gas harvesting at this very moment =D !
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.03.09 10:08:00 -
[214]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Luigi Vercotti Sorry if the question has been answered, but it is not jumping out at me. Are all 9 gases available within a pocket? I know that some are more rare and less easy to find, but can they all be scanned down eventually in that single pocket?
no, you generally find 1-3 types of fullerite per pocket and some of the fullerites are only available in "bat country" wormhole space.
so no building tech 3 ships unless you can make it out to 0.0 space?
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Shirley Serious
Amarr The Khanid Sisters of Athra
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Posted - 2009.03.09 17:50:00 -
[215]
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Luigi Vercotti Sorry if the question has been answered, but it is not jumping out at me. Are all 9 gases available within a pocket? I know that some are more rare and less easy to find, but can they all be scanned down eventually in that single pocket?
no, you generally find 1-3 types of fullerite per pocket and some of the fullerites are only available in "bat country" wormhole space.
so no building tech 3 ships unless you can make it out to 0.0 space?
You can fight your way through w-space to "bat country" though, yes?
i.e. empire > w-space > "Bat country" as opposed to 0.0 > "Bat country"
Yes. Yes, I am. |
Faraelle Brightman
Gallente Placid Reborn Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2009.03.09 23:12:00 -
[216]
Sorry if this has been answered allready: It's been said that pirate exploration sites will drop gas harvesting blueprints/skills but given that Fullerite = legal use for gas harvesting, will stuff like the Gas Cloud Harvesting skillbook be seeded on the Empire NPC market? -----------------------
"Every once in a while, declare peace. It confuses the hell out of your enemies." |
Mr Ignitious
R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.03.09 23:15:00 -
[217]
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Luigi Vercotti Sorry if the question has been answered, but it is not jumping out at me. Are all 9 gases available within a pocket? I know that some are more rare and less easy to find, but can they all be scanned down eventually in that single pocket?
no, you generally find 1-3 types of fullerite per pocket and some of the fullerites are only available in "bat country" wormhole space.
so no building tech 3 ships unless you can make it out to 0.0 space?
I interpreted "bat country" as the WHS only accessible through a wormhole. In which case, however unlikely, you could go .6 to "easy" WHS to "Hard" WHS to "bat country" WHS. Obviously likelihood of getting out that route would be low, but at the very least you could access said "bat country" system.
On the note of people speculating on T3 ship price, I feel obligated to voice that if I'm expected to pay over 300m for a T3 cruiser you won't see me in them because I could just as easily buy 2 T2 ships that fill the 2 roles a T3 ship does and have a buddy fly the one ship to fill said role.
Originally by: CCP Zulupark
WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
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Ikar Kaltin
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.12 11:07:00 -
[218]
Does anyone know of any guide, official or otherwise, for reverse engineering? I see a massive lack of info on how the process works and trying to find the answers :P
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Herring
Caldari Alcatraz Inc. THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY
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Posted - 2009.03.14 04:57:00 -
[219]
Was there a reason to limit the gas cloud harvesting ability to three concurrent harvesters, even if your skills and ship allows you to fit more? That was kind of lame imo.
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Tsu Yesayd
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Posted - 2009.03.18 17:47:00 -
[220]
Edited by: Tsu Yesayd on 18/03/2009 17:48:34 earlier posts (slightly reformatted):
Q: (by Gnulpie): Are the restrictions on the new reactor the same like the moon/biochemical reactors, system security status 0.3 or lower? Can the reverse engineering lab be anchored in high sec?
A: (by CCP Chronotis): The polymer reactors must be used in low sec space. (my question: does that equate to <=0.4 or <=0.3 sec space?). The assembly arrays and experimental labs can be anchored anywhere. There is the possibility we will also add to station assemblylines but these would be expensive.
Just to be absolutely clear... does "low sec space" here mean "0.4 and lower" sec space... or "0.3 and lower" sec space? Since it appears there are some things you can't do in 0.4 space that you can in 0.3 space and lower (moon mine and, I believe, booster mfg)... I think it'd be really important to state the needed system sec level rather than "low sec".
So, what's the highest system sec level you can use for all the silos and reactors needed for T3 polymer manufacturing
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2009.03.20 22:35:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Tsu Yesayd
Just to be absolutely clear... does "low sec space" here mean "0.4 and lower" sec space... or "0.3 and lower" sec space? Since it appears there are some things you can't do in 0.4 space that you can in 0.3 space and lower (moon mine and, I believe, booster mfg)... I think it'd be really important to state the needed system sec level rather than "low sec".
So, what's the highest system sec level you can use for all the silos and reactors needed for T3 polymer manufacturing
0.3 for the reactor. The attribute "restricted security level" means less than the number is allowed. >= is not allowed and restricted.
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achoura
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Posted - 2009.03.21 12:31:00 -
[222]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
0.3 for the reactor. The attribute "restricted security level" means less than the number is allowed. >= is not allowed and restricted.
Just to be clear, while it is perfectly good English it's not clear. When someone new comes into eve and looks at reactors they don't want to know where they can't put them, they want to know where they can and this single uninformative line has had people asking the same dam question each day since reactors were introduced.
Quite why someone never simply changed "restricted security level 0.4" to "restricted to 0.0-0.3" (or similar) is a question people have been asking fo a very long time ***The EVE servers and their patches*** |
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2009.03.21 15:22:00 -
[223]
It can be confusing yes so the attribute name has been changed to "restricted to security level less than" which should better indicate what the value means.
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