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FW lag investigation follow up please, CCP

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 13 post(s)
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.05.04 18:24:00 - [31] Originally by: Sapporo Ichiban Originally by: Merdaneth This is not a problem with load on the node This is not a problem with load on the node This is not a problem with load on the node (yes, this bears repeating) A 50 vs. 50 pirate fleet battle is no problem in these systems, only a 50 vs. 50 FW fleet fight is a problem. Obviously, there is a bug in the FW code. The only major area where FW code concerning fights differs from non-FW fights is how standing and sec loss is determined. I have also noticed that if I do not shoot anything, I never have much problems with lag, but as soon as I shoot or destroy a hostile, the desync-type lag might hit me. Not always, but odds increase as numbers increase. FW vs. pirates causes the same amount of lag If the problem involves FW code (for example, involving a check for standings loss for each weapons activation or some such) then it might only matter how many FW pilots were involved, not who they were fighting. For example, 25 militia vs 25 milita might be similar lag-wise to 50 militia vs 1+ non-militia, as in either case there are 50 ships generating the checks that cause the lag. (Note that I am not involved in militia, so I have only second-hand information.) -- Becq Starforged The Flame of Freedom Burns On!
Nareg Maxence Gallente	Posted - 2009.05.04 18:41:00 - [32] In this propaganda video by Pandemic Legion, at one point he notes that he has the same target locked four times, and has the entering space loop, which people have described in FW. If this is the same issue FW people are seeing, that means it isn't a FW-specific issue.
Erik Finnegan Gallente Polytechnique Gallenteenne	Posted - 2009.05.04 21:01:00 - [33] Originally by: EliteSlave till you realise that CSM means absolutely nothing, only then will you be at peace with yourself. Ask yourself this question, Exactly what has come about thanks to the CSM? EliteSlave, you are free to think that, but Ankhesentapemkah attempted raising the FW lag issue, however it was voted down by the other council members. Fortunately, despite the lack of interest from most CSM members towards FW, there have been quite a few FW-related issues that did actually pass and are still under CCP consideration. Originally by: 5pinDizzy I can't count the amount of times I lost a ship to desync when playing faction war. But it's loads, probably every 4/5 losses. If I read Erik Finnegan say himself somewhere that he'll raise the issue then I'll vote for him. As you say it's never really lag it's always desyncing, if you sit and stare at the screen you'll be there all night as it'll never fix itself and you'll probably die server side as you have no control so it's always best to keep logging off and back in again where you'll gain control again for what should be at least ten seconds or so. I am sorry to hear the issue is troubling you so much. You have my promise that I will raise this issue again, and if it gets voted down again, I will personally talk to someone in the office when I am in Iceland if it is still not fixed. See, I might not be a PvP expert, but I want to listen to your observations. One of the colleagues in my company left to fight in FW, and Eva has played FW as well. I, personally, want to have FW work, because I see in it the door for a lot more role play and backstory involvement of players. While FW might not be as big as 0.0 and thus not as high on CCP's priority list, I do want to see it developed further, as the state it is in now is unsatisfactory.
VicturusTeSaluto Metafarmers	Posted - 2009.05.04 21:29:00 - [34] FW lag is NOT a complicated issue, Aurora. Let me explain it to you. Low sec nodes already have a decent amount of stress on them because they usually are shared with high sec. Not only that, but there is plenty of macro mission running, regular mission running, pew pew, industry whatever going on in low sec. Add a fleet battle on top of that and BAM, node is very unhappy. Low sec nodes just don't have much flexibility. The only good solution for the FW lag would be make the wars only valid in a special region for all the FW noobs to enjoy. They could put plenty of processing power on the nodes and it would help a lot. Prior to FW, any battle in low sec with more than 30 or so involved was asking for horrible lag. Our great fleet battle in Amamake about 2 years ago had maybe 80-100 people involved at the laggiest point and most of us couldn't get the game to even respond or work for 20-30 minutes. Out in 0.0 a fleet battle would need to be a lot larger to generate lag problems because the nodes involved usually have a low load in comparison to high/low sec. Other than moving FW, removing it would be the only option to solve the lag. FW has been really bad for low sec in so many ways. Lag is one of the most pronounced problems, but it has also driven out most everyone besides fw noobs(which is not a pejorative of any manner- ccp themselves described fw as being for "noobs looking to get their feet wet"). There really isn't much to do in low sec anymore if you want nothing to do with the fw types. No real targets(sorry, ****fit frigs/cruisers are not ever interesting or profitable targets).
Alfred Spangler NoD Imperium	Posted - 2009.05.04 22:41:00 - [35] Edited by: Alfred Spangler on 04/05/2009 22:41:31 Originally by: Astria Tiphareth Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 04/05/2009 09:07:38 The observed lag & desyncs only appear to happen when you're on the same grid as the problem. People can idly fly by in the same system and notice nothing, yet others are desyncing at a nearby gate battle. It's getting pretty silly. The moment either Amarr or Matari commits more than about 30 people to a fleet, the resulting battle is so fraught with server problems that it's pot luck what happens. There was a battle on Saturday night in Kamela with about 150 participants - I think more than half had to log off and log back on to clear the desyncs. Just suddenly started 'Entering space' over and over and over in the middle of the fight... Other times, you get such marvelous lag, observed by numerous players at the same time, that ships that should have appeared out of a gate seconds ago only became visible and selectable by the time they're warping off. Other people are saying 'well I could see them, it was sat aligning for a good few seconds'. Everyone else is busy wondering what their client is doing. Fleet fights in 0.0 of thousands of participants feasible? So why can't a simple 100-200 person fleet engagement work in low-sec? Lag is part of the MMO experience - people can cope with that much - but these wild claims of huge fights possible leave a sour taste when something the tenth of that just doesn't work at all. This pretty much sums it up. Only thing to add from me: Lag is ok for huge engagements and can be accounted for. The server not responding at all for 5+ minutes is not lag anymore. It's complete halt of operation. Regards, A.S.
TraininVain	Posted - 2009.05.04 23:05:00 - [36] I find "terrible lowsec servers" just as plausible as "specific extra server load for FW players" tbh. It'd be nice to have some word on this.
Aurora Nyx Caldari Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2009.05.05 08:40:00 - [37] Daily bump - still waiting for CCP to tell us something.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.05 09:26:00 - [38] Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto FW lag is NOT a complicated issue, Aurora. Let me explain it to you. Low sec nodes already have a decent amount of stress on them because they usually are shared with high sec. Not only that, but there is plenty of macro mission running, regular mission running, pew pew, industry whatever going on in low sec. Add a fleet battle on top of that and BAM, node is very unhappy. Low sec nodes just don't have much flexibility. This is completely untrue. I warped into and flown amidst FW fleet battles without any lag and near perfect responsiveness on my Inty, while most others in the battle were lagged. This is not just a node stress issue I can fight a small battle at one gate in the same system while there is a super-laggy battle going on in the same system at another gate. If this was just a node problem, CCP would have identified it long ago. It's an interaction. With high load the server apparently handles some requests (my theory is standings/sec/aggression adjustments) in the wrong order and then bam! Desync and lag, but only if you're involved in that particular battle. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Shadyan Caldari Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2009.05.05 09:49:00 - [39] I think that the biggest issue here is that CCP has promoted a new feature in game, that they are not interested in, a satisfactory manner, supporting so that the paying members that are using this feature have a proper gaming experience. This is broken bigstyle in so many ways. I think that CCP in the way they behave concerning FW, are acknowleging that FW doesn't work, and they just wanna silence it to death. Slowly it will die out, and get a minimum of attention which the servers are geared to handle, and then they are happy. This could have been good, but it just wasn't. There is so much potential in this portale to 0.0 they think they have created, that it could actually become a huge endgame for the people who wants to roleplay, which is hard in EVE (IMO), but they just havn't got the ressources/visions to take it to the next level. That is actually all ok, but they have to say it, so people can reconsider their ingame priorties, and not just bragg about how many people they have online peak hours.
Sapporo Ichiban	Posted - 2009.05.05 11:32:00 - [40] why doesn't it work ? Personally , I like everything about it , except the lag of course . I came from 0.0 and never looked back , I think it's a great alternative for people who don't like the pvp overthere and don't want to go pirate . without just removing it from the game , it's gonna take a really long time to die out so they might aswell fix it

Usha Majere	Posted - 2009.05.05 12:19:00 - [41] Edited by: Usha Majere on 05/05/2009 12:19:22 Yesterday evenings lag fest I was cloaked up on grid and I was dysync-ed without decloaking and even locking anyone up. If CCP really want FW to vanish why are they telling new players with the boxed game to join FW within 10mins of starting their new toon using the certificate their toons are given on birth, instead of having to get +0.5 faction standing? Do they really think that getting new player to join FW, get fleeted up and have this sort of lag is really going to make them want to pay the sub after the free game time ends? No didn't think so! I've been in FW from the start where we used to get 100+ vs 100+ battles and I gotta say that the desync/lag is far worst now with 50 vs 50 battles than it was back then. http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=DE&hl=de&v=A5Jaqz1JAZo (Cassius Rex, us old timers still remember you and love you!)
TraininVain	Posted - 2009.05.05 12:29:00 - [42] Originally by: Usha Majere Edited by: Usha Majere on 05/05/2009 12:19:22 Yesterday evenings lag fest I was cloaked up on grid and I was dysync-ed without decloaking and even locking anyone up. If CCP really want FW to vanish why are they telling new players with the boxed game to join FW within 10mins of starting their new toon using the certificate their toons are given on birth, instead of having to get +0.5 faction standing? Do they really think that getting new player to join FW, get fleeted up and have this sort of lag is really going to make them want to pay the sub after the free game time ends? No didn't think so! I've been in FW from the start where we used to get 100+ vs 100+ battles and I gotta say that the desync/lag is far worst now with 50 vs 50 battles than it was back then. http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=DE&hl=de&v=A5Jaqz1JAZo (Cassius Rex, us old timers still remember you and love you!) What he said ^^^
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.05.05 20:53:00 - [43] Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 05/05/2009 20:53:27 Originally by: Winterblink I wouldn't say it's been consigned to the rubbish heap, as you say. If you've been around EVE long enough you'll know that big changes to larger systems don't happen overnight, and frequently only after it's sat for a long enough time live on Tranquility. That doesn't mean CCP is ignoring it currently, or doesn't have any plans in the works for it. 0.0 gets a lot of attention because lets face it -- that's one of the major "endgames" for EVE. If that's not working in a timely fashion you lose a huge chunk of your long term player base. Other players might not give a ***, but it's that area of the game that faction warfare is designed in part to be a gateway drug for and a major driving factor in the game's overall economy. The mechanics of 0.0 warfare aren't perfect, but no amount of soapboxing by the community over the years has produced any intelligent design overhauls. Myself, whether it's 0.0 or FW, I'd rather see CCP take their time and make the right changes to things rather than rush it because someone on a forum told them to. Thanks a bunch for the talking down to . As it happens, I'm completely aware of this, as I have been around EVE a while, and software design far longer. However, the silence on FW has been quite deafening. We were asked for input into lag information, and have heard nothing. A simple 'we're still looking into it, don't worry' wouldn't hurt. It's difficult to be helpful and assist with investigations with no input as to what to look for. What I was attempting to illustrate, albeit with a certain level of vexation, is that this issue continues to make life very awkward for those of us in FW. I'd not begrudge equivalent frustration expressed by 0.0 players in face of desyncs in fleet lag either. As far as my understanding goes, FW has come up quite a few times both with CSM and other CCP meetings e.g. fanfest, with a distinct lack of progress. It is that that concerns me. I don't believe I asked for instant results. Kindly do not associate me with the instant gratification crowd. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties...* Environmental Effects
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.05.05 21:09:00 - [44] Originally by: Usha Majere I've been in FW from the start where we used to get 100+ vs 100+ battles and I gotta say that the desync/lag is far worst now with 50 vs 50 battles than it was back then. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5Jaqz1JAZo (Cassius Rex, us old timers still remember you and love you!) To get back to being constructive, I would agree. 50+ battles were almost standard back when FW first began. This is another reason I lean towards Merdaneth's take on it being a coding problem. Unless some dramatic re-assignment of hardware has occurred, recent code changes would appear to have made the problem worse. As a dev myself, I empathise with the difficulty of finding which code changes. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Aggression.	Posted - 2009.05.05 23:34:00 - [45] wow no blue bars on this thread yet huh ... that is a shame where is wrangler when you need him and his indy whip if you buy eve in a box from my game store i will give you isk (GAME , parkgate rotherham)
Lady Lothrein Minmatar Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2009.05.06 08:38:00 - [46] Daily bumb until CCP answers or close the topic (which also is an answer)
Icy Yew	Posted - 2009.05.06 10:56:00 - [47] I can't believe you guys can't get an answer out of CCP on this. Poor show from the devs, poor show.
Aurora Nyx Caldari Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2009.05.06 13:58:00 - [48] This is my daily bump, still waiting for a reply.
Graelyn Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies	Posted - 2009.05.06 14:22:00 - [49] Don't hold your breath. CCP would probably love to forget FW exists.
Threv Echandari Caldari K Directorate	Posted - 2009.05.06 15:03:00 - [50] I guess this is one of those times that if you ask for a Dev response you won't get it (candyman, candyman, candyman). CCP often acts on the --If you have nothing to report don't say anything at all.- Which is sad because all many of us would like to hear is that "Hey we have not figured it out yet but we haven't forgotten about you" instead they have gone off and Nerfed Stealth Bombers and and such like. (Sore? Who me?) As for the CSM shame on them for voting down bringing up FW lag issues. I know who won't be voting in for a second term. (Count me in the 0.0 refugee crowd..been there done that yaaaawn. I much prefer the action and freedom in FW, 0.0 just is not the endgame for me. (Unless I get rid of my wife kids and job...which is not going to happen) ---------------------------------------- Happiness is a Wet Pod

Garramon Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2009.05.06 16:20:00 - [51] I participated in my first FW "fleet" battle the other day (about 25 vs 30). Things were fine, there were no issues for the first 2 minutes, as I was re-targeting people after being jammed by ECM drones. A bit later into the fight I hear "bwoom" the sound you receive when you get a mail. What an odd time for that. About 3 minutes later I appear in the cloning facility. Turns out I had gotten podded, without my screen ever even showing me being targeted by anyone. After participating in some 200 v 200 battles MANY years ago and only having a bit of module lag, this was highly disappointing. Needless to say I did not enjoy having my fate completely removed from my control.
Serpens Sol Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.05.06 17:15:00 - [52] As a new player the FW lag issue does not leave a good impression. Activity on the Minmatar/Amarr front has really picked up over the past week, which was exciting, until I found myself involved in at least one lagged out fleet battle per day. In fact I was about to cancel my subscription until I found out that it is FW specific and that it was not always this way. That the lag issue is a problem that may be fixed gives me enough incentive to stick around a while longer and give CCP a chance. Some confirmation from CCP on this would be nice though. Certainly there is a lot more to EvE than FW, but for a casual player like myself FW is perfect balance of instant PvP gratification and multi-player interaction. I really do not see myself doing much else in EvE for a while, so it is really important to me as a subscriber that they look into improving this area of the game.
Sun Clausewitz	Posted - 2009.05.06 17:27:00 - [53] Maybe we have to get this over 9000 before they reply ///my vote is for sale, he who sends the most iskies gets it\\\

CCP Wrangler	Posted - 2009.05.06 17:53:00 - [54] We're looking into this situation and we'll update you as soon as we can. Wrangler Community Manager CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact us If it's stupid but works, it isn't stupid.

ArmyOfMe The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2009.05.06 18:04:00 - [55] Originally by: CCP Wrangler We're looking into this situation and we'll update you as soon as we can. omg, he lives. some updates on this would be really nice though, cause atm it makes pvp in low sec a living hell
kayentelva Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.05.06 18:09:00 - [56] bump needs to be given some dev lovin' please
Aurora Nyx Caldari Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2009.05.07 06:44:00 - [57] Originally by: CCP Wrangler We're looking into this situation and we'll update you as soon as we can. Thanks for the reply, but i think we need more than a dismisive "we're on it". It's been months since we first complained, and about 6 weeks since the devs front page news story of how everything was going to be OK. This is a valid complaint that affects upto 1000 players currently enrolled in FW. Please can we have more information.
Dahr Ling	Posted - 2009.05.07 10:16:00 - [58] Adding my bump in support.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.05.07 10:27:00 - [59] Originally by: CCP Wrangler We're looking into this situation and we'll update you as soon as we can. Maybe some instruction on what kind of informations would be more useful to you will help this issue. I think most of the participants to FW will be glad to run logserver and do a bug report if that could help resolving the issue faster. Almost certainly the FW issue can't be easily reproduced on the test server (barring a special FW event there).
YORK CRAFT Caldari KRAFTWERK	Posted - 2009.05.07 11:16:00 - [60] Originally by: Venkul Mul Maybe some instruction on what kind of informations would be more useful to you will help this issue. I think most of the participants to FW will be glad to run logserver and do a bug report if that could help resolving the issue faster. Almost certainly the FW issue can't be easily reproduced on the test server (barring a special FW event there). That was all already done in the past. As I said, tons of serverlogs were submited by CCP request, even on special, issue dedicated, FW battle-events with GM partizipation on tranquility.



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